#clojure – 2010-11-12

2010-11-12

00:05	replaca	KirinDave: it seems that the consensus is that deftype and defrecord completely subsume defstruct
00:08	KirinDave	I thought so
00:08	KirinDave	Just wanted to make sure.
00:08	KirinDave	I'm doing a brief history of clojure OO for The Book.
00:12	TheBusby	Er, is their a simple/standard way to convert a string into a Clojure numeric?
00:15	scgilardi	TheBusby: one simple way is (read-string "300")
00:15	TheBusby	scgilardi: that's perfect thank you!
00:16	scgilardi	you're welcome
00:18	technomancy	even before defrecord there was hardly a reason to use defstruct
00:20	KirinDave	technomancy: I'm only mentioning it in a sidebar.
00:20	technomancy	sounds good; mostly of historical interest
00:24	LauJensen	Good morning all
00:24	amalloy	morning LauJensen
01:31	ppppaul	~#90
01:31	clojurebot	90. Computation has made the tree flower.
01:31	ppppaul	~#89
01:31	clojurebot	89. One does not learn computing by using a hand calculator, but one can forget arithmetic.
01:32	ppppaul	??
03:00	bartj	, (doc fmap)
03:00	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
03:00	bartj	&(doc fmap)
03:00	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: fmap in this context
03:00	amalloy	$source fmap
03:00	sexpbot	Source not found.
03:00	amalloy	hrm
03:01	amalloy	~source fmap
03:01	amalloy	wtf guys
03:01	bartj	gah, fmap doesn't preserve the structure!
03:01	bartj	you guys are lying the documentation
03:01	amalloy	bartj: what do you mean?
03:01	bartj	(fmap #(* 10 (first %)) {:a [1] :b [2] :c [3]})
03:01	bartj	I was expecting this: {:a [10] :b [20] :c [30]}
03:02	amalloy	bartj: how on earth could fmap know to do that?
03:02	amalloy	it knows it got [1] as an argument, and you gave it 10 as a result
03:02	bartj	the documentation says it preserves the structure
03:02	bartj	hmm
03:02	amalloy	yeah, it preserves the map
03:02	bartj	you mean the keys of the map?
03:03	amalloy	the keys, and makes sure they still match with the same transformed values
03:03	amalloy	but what you do to the values is your business
03:03	amalloy	anyway (fmap (comp vector #(* 10 %) first) {:a [1] :b [2] :c [3]})
03:05	bartj	amalloy, hmm
03:05	amalloy	if fmap faithfully reproduced the structure, which conceivably it could, how would i turn {:a [1]} into {:a 1}?
03:06	bartj	ok, it leaves the transformation of the values to the user
03:06	bartj	thanks!
03:06	amalloy	right
03:06	amalloy	enjoy!
03:06	bartj	one more thing: is there a function which does (complement nil?)
03:06	bartj	I want to check that a value is not nil
03:06	bartj	and I don't want to do a (complement nil?)
03:07	amalloy	do you care if it's false?
03:07	amalloy	that is: do you want it to return true or false when given false as the input
03:07	bartj	the values are generally strings only
03:08	amalloy	then the function you're looking for is identity :P
03:08	amalloy	&(keep identity ["str" 1 nil :a])
03:08	sexpbot	⟹ ("str" 1 :a)
03:09	bartj	,(doc keep)
03:09	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
03:10	amalloy	bartj: (keep f s) is basically (filter identity (map f s))
03:10	amalloy	or i guess, (remove nil?), since apparently it includes false
03:10	bartj	or (remove nil? collection) is easier :)
03:11	amalloy	sure. but i'm demonstrating identity for you
03:11	bartj	to remove the nil IMO
03:11	bartj	oh ok!
03:11	amalloy	if you just want to drop nils from a seq, i'd use filter identity, personally
03:11	amalloy	but there's nothing wrong with remove nil?
03:19	ppppaul	can someone give me suggestions for extracting strings from strings in clojure?
03:20	ppppaul	do i have to do java interlop?
03:20	amalloy	ppppaul: um, it depends on what you mean by "extracting strings from strings". what's an example of what you want to do?
03:21	ppppaul	"abcd" -> "ab"
03:21	ppppaul	(apply str (take 2 "abcd"))
03:21	bartj	, (apply str (take 2 "abcd"))
03:21	amalloy	clojure.string probably has that, though the interop is really easy too
03:21	clojurebot	"ab"
03:22	ppppaul	in this case, using apply isn't helping to make my code understandable
03:22	amalloy	&(clojure.string/take 2 "abcd")
03:22	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: clojure.string/take
03:22	ppppaul	clojure.string has some nice stuff for splitting and replacing... but i want subsections
03:22	amalloy	(use 'clojure.string)
03:23	amalloy	&(require 'clojure.string)
03:23	sexpbot	⟹ nil
03:23	amalloy	&(clojure.string/take 2 "abcd")
03:23	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: clojure.string/take
03:23	amalloy	bah
03:23	ppppaul	take is not in string
03:23	ppppaul	it's in core
03:23	amalloy	oh. i'm looking at clojure.contrib.string
03:23	amalloy	&(require 'clojure.contrib.string)
03:23	sexpbot	⟹ nil
03:23	ppppaul	oh
03:23	ppppaul	maybe i should look there too
03:23	amalloy	&(clojure.contrib.string/take 2 "abcd")
03:23	sexpbot	⟹ "ab"
03:23	ppppaul	nice
03:23	ppppaul	:D
03:24	bartj	ppppaul, http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html has a whole lot of string functions
03:25	ppppaul	bartj, replace 'richhickey' with 'clojure' for he updated site
03:25	ppppaul	i'm looking at it now... has tons of sexy string stuff :D
03:25	bartj	hmm, ok!
03:27	tWip	what's the deal with clojurebot sending weird private messages?
03:27	tWip	by weird, I mean unsolicited, like "Huh?"
03:28	amalloy	tWip: i've never seen him do that. private messages?
03:28	tWip	or are they channel notices or something similar
03:29	amalloy	tWip: are they going to you personally, or to the channel in general?
03:29	Raynes	I've never seen him PM somebody with an odd message. I imagine that would be a bug.
03:29	tWip	perhaps it's a bug in irccloud, as I don't remember getting them with irssi
03:31	ppppaul	clojurebot sending me oppressive messages is a bug?
03:31	Raynes	ppppaul: Sending them in PM would probably be a bug. Not the messages themselves. He's always sent random messages when people say certain things.
03:32	ppppaul	i think the 8ball is broken
03:32	amalloy	Raynes: apparently it's not just certain things. hiredman specifically has him respond to 0.5% of messages
03:32	Raynes	How could it possibly be broken? :p
03:32	ppppaul	~8ball is the 8ball broken?
03:32	clojurebot	Pardon?
03:32	amalloy	$8ball is this working?
03:32	sexpbot	amalloy: Yes.
03:32	ppppaul	$8ball is the 8ball broken?
03:32	sexpbot	ppppaul: Yes.
03:32	ppppaul	there
03:32	ppppaul	proof
03:33	Raynes	Yep, that solves it.
03:33	ppppaul	anyway, i would like to propose a fortune cookie feature
03:34	Raynes	$fortune
03:34	sexpbot	I have no fortune cookies. Please feed me some!
03:34	Raynes	$addfortune You will yawn in 5 seconds.
03:34	ppppaul	$fortune
03:34	sexpbot	Fortune cookie eaten.
03:34	sexpbot	You will yawn in 5 seconds.
03:34	ppppaul	$addfortune one day sexpbot will have a large fortune database
03:34	sexpbot	Fortune cookie eaten.
03:35	ppppaul	$addfortune sometimes the 8ball is wrong.
03:35	sexpbot	Fortune cookie eaten.
03:36	rpierich	anyone wish to chat?
03:38	ppppaul	is this a chatting room?
03:38	rpierich	i'm not sure
03:38	ppppaul	& (#(% %) #(% %))
03:38	sexpbot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
03:39	ppppaul	$8ball is this a chatting room?
03:39	sexpbot	ppppaul: Very doubtful.
03:39	ppppaul	well then...
03:39	ppppaul	wanna chat about monads?
03:39	rpierich	what is a monad?
03:40	ppppaul	it is a way to represent a change in state using functions
03:40	ppppaul	i think
03:40	ppppaul	i could be wrong
03:40	Raynes	You are.
03:42	ppppaul	enlighten me
03:43	amalloy	they're like burritos
03:43	amalloy	$google monad burritos
03:43	sexpbot	First out of 200 results is: Code To Joy: Monads are Burritos
03:43	sexpbot	http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2009/03/monads-are-burritos.html
03:43	ppppaul	wow
03:43	ppppaul	should i eat them?
03:43	Raynes	Only if they're poisoned.
03:45	ppppaul	poisoned with smaller burritos?
03:46	ppppaul	(ns rosettacode.align-columns
03:46	ppppaul	(:require [clojure.contrib.string :as str])) i made a mistake, but my code is similar to the clojure documentation at http://clojure.org/libs
03:47	ppppaul	what do?
03:48	ppppaul	did i make a tpyo/
03:48	Raynes	What is the problem?
03:49	ppppaul	str.take doesn't work
03:49	Raynes	str/take
03:49	ppppaul	oh shit
03:49	Raynes	Also, clojure.contrib.string = clojure.string now.
03:49	ppppaul	really?
03:49	amalloy	Raynes: no
03:50	Raynes	amalloy: maybe
03:50	amalloy	clojure.string has a lot less stuff
03:50	Raynes	My statement isn't really incorrect though.
03:50	Raynes	Some of it was moved over.
03:51	Raynes	I /did/ use = and not identical?, so yeah. Sue me.
03:51	amalloy	Raynes: (not= #{1 2 3 4 5} #{1 2})
03:51	Raynes	We can't be friends anymore.
03:52	amalloy	&(boolean "amalloy and Raynes are friends")
03:52	sexpbot	⟹ true
03:53	ppppaul	lol
03:54	ppppaul	i now have a padding function!
03:54	ppppaul	extra padding
03:55	Raynes	coughformatcough
03:56	ppppaul	indeed
03:56	ppppaul	oh
03:56	ppppaul	oh
03:56	ppppaul	looking that up now
04:00	ppppaul	woah, format is big
04:00	Raynes	$source format
04:00	sexpbot	format is http://is.gd/gXJXY
04:03	ppppaul	format doesn't seem to do center justification
04:20	noidi	is there a built-in function like (fn [a b] (if-not (nil? a) (cons a b) b))
04:21	noidi	I seem to need something like that quite often when using recursion and destructuring
04:23	amalloy	noidi: do you need to cons it right away, or are you building something up lazily?
04:24	ppppaul	what would be a good way of going about adding meta data to a string?
04:24	esj	morning all
04:24	noidi	amalloy, right away. I'm doing macro-like stuff (only in a function).
04:24	noidi	I think I'll just write that little helper
04:25	ppppaul	$8ball morning?
04:25	sexpbot	ppppaul: Without a doubt.
04:26	amalloy	noidi: i'm not at all convinced that macro-y stuff is related to non-laziness
04:26	Chousuke	ppppaul: you can't add metadata to strings.
04:29	ppppaul	i know i can't
04:29	Raynes	Then why ask how you can?
04:29	ppppaul	which is why i'm asking about a good way to do so... should i use records or lists or lambdas?
04:30	noidi	my function takes a vector defining a list of things [:foo :bar :baz], and each of the definitions may be followed by one or two optional arguments [:foo, :bar [...], :baz [...] {...}]
04:30	amalloy	ppppaul: maps?
04:30	ppppaul	hashmaps
04:31	noidi	right now I do this when parsing the definition (let [[a b c & rest] definition] ...)
04:31	ppppaul	i think lambdas may be the best way, cus they could return the string
04:32	noidi	the thing is, I have to cons b and c back to rest, but only if they're non-nil (which either means that there was a nil in the input sequence or the sequence ended)
04:32	noidi	maybe I'm approaching this the wrong way...
04:32	ppppaul	filter nils
04:32	ppppaul	nils are icky
04:33	noidi	ppppaul, hmm... true! there's no point in supporting them in the "dsl", since they contain no information.
04:35	ppppaul	(filter nil? everything)
04:35	ppppaul	(remove nil? everything)
04:35	ppppaul	i think filter does the opposite
04:40	noidi	ppppaul, thanks, everything got way easier with that :)
04:42	noidi	now I got rid of the icky cons stuff and can just do (recur ...accumulation... (concat (remove nil [b c]) rest)) in the branch that handles the case with no optional arguments (where b & c are regular elements or nils if a was the last item in the seq)
04:42	ppppaul	:D
04:50	ppppaul	i want to return 0 when an exception happens in the below code... i get a cast error right now
04:50	ppppaul	(try
04:50	ppppaul	(count (nth % n))
04:50	ppppaul	(catch Exception e (eval 0)))
04:50	ppppaul	when (nth goes out of bounds, i want to return 0
04:51	amalloy	ppppaul: (eval 0) is bizarre. just return 0
04:51	ppppaul	that is the idea
04:52	amalloy	just put 0 there instead of (eval 0)
04:52	amalloy	is what i am saying
04:52	ppppaul	it was
04:52	ppppaul	i didn't change it back, yet
04:52	noidi	,(try (count (nth [] 10)) (catch Exception _ 0))
04:52	clojurebot	noidi: excusez-moi
04:52	noidi	works for me
04:53	ppppaul	ok, my bug must be somewhere else, then
04:53	ppppaul	thanks :)
04:53	amalloy	and is this your real code, or an example to demonstrate exceptions? i'd suggest writing your code to do checking ahead of time instead of waiting for exceptions
04:55	amalloy	&(if-let [x (seq (drop 3 [1 2 3 4 5]))] (first x) 0)
04:55	sexpbot	⟹ 4
04:55	amalloy	&(if-let [x (seq (drop 3 [1 2]))] (first x) 0)
04:55	sexpbot	⟹ 0
04:55	amalloy	ppppaul: ^^
04:57	ppppaul	^^ indeed
04:57	ppppaul	parens were wrong
04:58	ppppaul	would be nice to have a short-hand for the try-catch stuff
04:58	ppppaul	(on-exception (code) (exception code))
04:59	ppppaul	or maybe (try+
04:59	amalloy	ppppaul: you could write that macro easily enough, but a lot of your try/catch code will involve interop, which often has side effects
05:00	amalloy	therefore you can't just assume the first form is the "working" case and the rest are "error" cases
05:00	ppppaul	i guess i don't have much experience with exception handling... didn't use it much when i did java
05:02	ppppaul	i would actually like the syntax to be something like (code) (:oops exception return)
05:02	clojurebot	http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/kwxm/JVM/codeByNo.html
05:03	amalloy	ppppaul: you already have that syntax. it's try-catch
05:04	ppppaul	i guess i could do something like (? (body) (simple exception-body)
05:04	ppppaul	yeah, but (catch Exception e (body)).... i just want (body)
05:05	ppppaul	e = % or something
05:05	amalloy	(try+ (.init someObj) (bar someObj) 10)
05:06	amalloy	how can try+ know where the try ends and the catch begins?
05:06	ppppaul	(try+ (body) (catch body))
05:06	ppppaul	like if
05:07	ppppaul	could just have a keyword :oops
05:07	amalloy	ppppaul: so write the macro yourself. it's not complicated
05:07	ppppaul	(? (body) :oops %)
05:07	amalloy	then use it for a while and see if it's useful
05:08	ppppaul	i'll write it up
05:08	ppppaul	learning how to write macros
05:10	bmh	Can I easily convert a vector of strings into a java string array? I've looked at functions like object-array, but nothing fits the bill.
05:10	amalloy	bmh: into-array
05:11	LauJensen	2 more features and ClojureQL is 1.0 :D
05:11	bmh	amalloy: Thanks. That was easy.
05:11	amalloy	bmh: we aim to please :)
05:14	esj	LauJensen: cool bananas !
05:14	amalloy	(defmacro ? [& body] (let [[work [_ & broke]]
05:14	amalloy	(split-with (complement #{:oops}) body)]
05:14	amalloy	`(try ~@work (catch Throwable ~'_ ~@broke))))
05:14	amalloy	ppppaul: ^^
05:15	ppppaul	:D
05:15	ppppaul	thanks
05:15	amalloy	welcome. i'm off to bed now
05:15	ppppaul	night
05:16	LauJensen	esj: yea - speaking of bananas, did you see you were listed on disclojure.org today?
05:16	esj	courtesy of you.... thanks :)
05:16	LauJensen	Toni Batchelli actually, he hand picks
05:16	esj	pretty sweet indeed
05:37	fliebel	morning
05:38	fliebel	I remember people talking about some Bonjour git stuff for the conj, anyone know what that was? I found bananajour, but I'm not sure it's the thing.
05:40	esj	bananajour ! ahhahaha
05:50	hsuh	i was happily using leiningen and its project structure, but now i have a second application (something that will run on another computer, say) for the same project, which should share files with the other application. how should i organize this ?
06:20	LauJensen	Remind me, how is it I disable that warning "slime versions differ x y z (y n ) ?"
06:20	hsuh	+1
06:22	hsuh	i think you can force it with (setq slime-protocol-version 'ignore)
06:23	hsuh	yep, that worked
06:24	LauJensen	thanks
06:24	hsuh	of course that will come back to bite us when we update swank or slime :)
06:27	LauJensen	live for today hsuh :)
06:59	Raynes	cemerick: Good morning.
07:00	cemerick	Raynes: :-)
07:00	hsuh	how could/should i share "utility functions" across projects (using leiningen) ?
07:04	cemerick	hsuh: hopefully lein will support artifact deployment to non-clojars repos soon.
07:05	hsuh	hm.. but that is the case for small stuff that you're still adding to, i guess
07:05	hsuh	*not the case
07:11	hsuh	what i have actually are two different apps which share some source code (for db access for example) and i dont know how to organize that... i'm considering even making a single project with two different run scripts (but then lein jar wont work in the future)
07:12	cemerick	hsuh: The typical thing to do would be to put the common utilities, etc. in their own project, which produces its own versioned artifact that is then added to a repository that you control. Then your other projects can add a dependency upon that common artifact.
07:13	hsuh	hm, ok... but what if these common files are also being developed? pain?
07:14	Raynes	Sounds like you want something like cake's subproject dependencies.
07:14	cemerick	hsuh: every sane development environment has something like lein's checkout dependencies, or better.
07:15	Raynes	Look for it in the cake readme: http://github.com/ninjudd/cake
07:15	Raynes	I'm sure Leiningen does something similar.
07:15	octe	/12/12
07:15	Raynes	Right, checkout dependencies is lein's version, I think.
07:15	cemerick	Raynes: neither of them will solve his problem unless his build tool will push the common artifact to his own repo
07:16	hsuh	Raynes, cemerick: cool, that exactly that.. i was just searching the mailing list for the wrong keyword
07:18	cemerick	hsuh: Notice my last msg @ Raynes. You need to get that common utility project deploying into your own repo in order for the main application projects to build.
07:19	hsuh	cemerick: yeah i typed that before seeing yours... although cake's says that "If you really do want changes to clojure source files to show up immediately, you can always add the subproject src directory to your project classpath in .cake/config like this:"
07:19	cemerick	AFAICT, that's intended for developement-time only.
07:20	cemerick	i.e. it won't affect actual builds.
07:21	hsuh	cemerick: oh but i'm worried about development now
07:22	cemerick	"We'll be fine; I've got enough in the larder to last through February!"
07:22	cemerick	I think I remember that from a Little House on the Prairie episode ;-)
07:26	raek	to me, leiningen's checkouts feature sounds like what hsuh is looking for
07:27	raek	at least I have used it for doing development on two projects at the same time, without having to push jars to the local repo
07:27	hsuh	perhaps it should be a single project with two ways of building (two different mains)... that would be much simpler
07:27	cemerick	raek: how do you get the artifacts into that local repo?
07:28	raek	I haven't done anything repo-related
07:28	cemerick	raek: oh, misread "without" in your last msg
07:28	raek	leiningen simply adds the classpaths of the other projects into the current one
07:28	cemerick	right, but....
07:29	cemerick	is this typical, setting up projects so that they can be used and built on a local machine, but require significant classpath relationship setup elsewhere?
07:31	raek	elsewere = production or another dev setup?
07:31	hsuh	i dont really have two projects - they will "always" be developed together, its just that it should produce two jars (for now)
07:31	cemerick	raek: all of the above
07:31	raek	I use checkouts when the version of the dep I want to use does not have a jar
07:32	cemerick	hsuh: sure, I have one cluster that is ~12 projects that are all developed together. Not splitting them up would have been a nightmare.
07:32	raek	my experience is limited.
07:34	raek	I think "checkouts" are best suited for "local hacking"
07:34	cemerick	that's what they're intended for, yes
07:34	cemerick	raek, hsuh: I've been dancing around pointing both of you at maven. It solves these problems in a general way.
07:35	hsuh	cemerick: otoh everyone heard the horror stories
07:35	raek	what is maven's approach to this problem?
07:36	hsuh	what are "checkout dependencies" called in maven land ?
07:36	cemerick	hsuh: yeah, lots of horror stories about lisp, too :-P
07:36	hsuh	true, i dont see any parens
07:38	cemerick	raek: checkout dependencies are orthogonal to the build and release process, so maven leaves that up to one's tooling; the major IDEs provide supersets of the "checkout dependency" feature. However, we'll be adding something similar to clojure-maven-plugin for those that prefer emacs/vi/textmate: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-maven-plugin/browse_frm/thread/ec87a43c3bfac1b6
07:39	cemerick	s/leaves/wisely leaves
07:39	sexpbot	<cemerick> raek: checkout dependencies are orthogonal to the build and release process, so maven wisely leaves that up to one's tooling; the major IDEs provide supersets of the "checkout dependency" feature. However, we'll be adding something similar to clojure-maven-plugin for those that prefer emacs/vi/textmate: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-maven-plugin/browse_frm/thread/ec87a43c3bfac1b6
07:42	Raynes	cemerick: You'll never convert me to maven. NEVAR.
07:42	cemerick	Raynes: Funny, you use maven every time you touch/touched lein. #toolate :-P
07:43	Raynes	I don't use leiningen.
07:43	cemerick	well, you did
07:43	Raynes	And, I've never had to touch a .pom file, so meh.
07:43	Raynes	cake uses maven (for the time being) as well, so you could have used that as an example.
07:43	cemerick	whichever
07:44	cemerick	The blub paradox is alive and well w/ Clojure devs vis a vis build tooling. :-/
07:49	neotyk`	Guys is following snippet in good style?
07:49	neotyk`	,(let [m {:k1 {:a [1]} :k2 {:a []} :k3 {:a nil}}] (select-keys m (for [[k v] m :when (not-empty (:a v))] k)))
07:49	clojurebot	{:k1 {:a [1]}}
07:57	Raynes	cemerick: I still <3 you.
07:57	cemerick	Raynes: Likewise :-)
07:57	cemerick	Raynes: But you'll end up using maven someday.
07:57	cemerick	Sorry. :-)
07:58	Raynes	When dead men walk and man can fly.
07:58	neotyk`	cemerick: or aether
07:58	Raynes	Nobody likes clojail. :< no new watchers.
07:58	Adamant	Raynes: when there's no room in hell and the dead walk the Earth, we'll be too busy fighting the undead to worry about Maven
07:58	Raynes	I guess a sandbox is kind of a... really domain specific thing.
07:59	Raynes	Adamant: Touché.
07:59	cemerick	neotyk`: sure, but then if backends count, then Raynes has already used maven via lein and cake
07:59	Raynes	If backends count, then sure. Pretty much everybody has used maven then.
08:00	cemerick	Raynes: …or when your first job has 14 modules, and the prospect of using anything else makes people go pale.
08:01	neotyk`	in our project we maintain both pom.xml and project.clj as pom doesn't allow us such a nice integration with emacs like elein does
08:01	Raynes	If ever I need something that cake cannot provide or easily be made to provide, than I will succumb to mavens rule
08:01	neotyk`	but we have multiple modules
08:01	cemerick	neotyk`: `mvn clojure:swank`?
08:01	neotyk`	and java dev in projects
08:01	neotyk`	cemerick: not lein, but elein
08:02	cemerick	neotyk`: never heard of it?
08:02	neotyk`	elein is https://github.com/remvee/elein
08:02	neotyk`	clojurebot: elein is https://github.com/remvee/elein
08:02	clojurebot	In Ordnung
08:03	neotyk`	so I can do M-x elein-swank or elein-reswank or elein-deps from within emacs
08:04	neotyk`	all no need to start in shell swank server
08:04	Raynes	cemerick: Are you wearing a wife-beater in your twitter image?
08:05	cemerick	neotyk`: you keep separate project.clj's in sync just to use a 180-line elisp module? :-O :-)
08:05	cemerick	Raynes: I'm pretty sure I've never worn a wife-beater in my life. :-)
08:05	neotyk`	well, I don't have to maintain poms ;-)
08:05	neotyk`	I maintain project.clj
08:05	neotyk`	sometimes just help a bit with poms
08:06	cemerick	neotyk`: Ah; my point being, writing an emvn.el or somesuch would seem to be a more efficient route :-)
08:06	hsuh	twitter just told "Similar to @cemerick chrishouser Follow"
08:06	cemerick	Raynes: nah, that's just a green polo shirt
08:06	neotyk`	cemerick: I'm still kind of afraid of writing my own emacs packages
08:15	fogus_	I need to add triangle-key support to clojure-mode.el! http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2008-07-27-1
08:16	Raynes	fogus_: ohai
08:18	cemerick	Hyper-Super-Meta-Control :-P
08:18	fogus_	cemerick: Thanks for the pom tips. I will clean it up later today
08:20	cemerick	fogus_: None of it is bad, was just FYI.
08:22	fogus_	cemerick: It's good stuff. I need to learn these things
08:23	fogus_	Raynes: Hello to you sir
08:29	cemerick	I guess it's safe to say that no one uses update-proxy.
08:32	fogus_	cemerick: I know a certain book that devotes a half page to it. :-O
08:32	cemerick	fogus_: indeed, I found that surprising!
08:32	cemerick	it's a neat facility, but I wouldn't be surprised if it went away so as to maximize proxy perf
08:33	fogus_	cemerick: I think update-proxy is a great incremental development tool.
08:33	fogus_	That's kinda the angle we took
08:35	fogus_	It would be ashamed if it went away
08:36	stuartsierra	As far as proxies go, I wouldn't expect it to change
08:36	cemerick	fogus_: I'd much rather explicitly delegate to an external var, and then I can just load code to update my "proxied" function.
08:37	cemerick	I suppose you might actually want a single instance to gain a different method impl, but I've not encountered that use case.
08:38	cemerick	stuartsierra: having to pay the indirection cost just because you have to extend a concrete class is a bummer. Combined with the lack of use of update-proxy, and… shrug
08:38	stuartsierra	I think deftype/reify is the performant path
08:39	fogus_	cemerick: using proxy and gen-class pollutes my beautiful Clojure semantics, so I like the benefit of dynamism ... it dulls the pain a bit. ;-)
08:39	stuartsierra	dunno if that performance can be matched when extending a concrete class
08:47	neotyk`	(find-doc "every")
08:47	neotyk`	sorry not this window
08:52	jweiss_	how do i convert a map into a seq? (not the keypairs, just a list (k v k v etc)
08:53	Raynes	&(flatten (seq {:a :b :c :d}))
08:53	sexpbot	⟹ (:a :b :c :d)
08:54	cemerick	&(mapcat identity {:a :b :c :d})
08:54	sexpbot	⟹ (:a :b :c :d)
08:54	jweiss_	ah good ones
08:54	Raynes	Mine is two characters shorter, mhm.
08:54	Raynes	;)
08:54	jweiss_	i think Raynes' is a bit more obvious what it does too :)
08:55	Raynes	mapcat is really simple though, if you read the docstring.
08:55	cemerick	I've never liked flatten much
08:55	jweiss_	me either
08:55	Raynes	Almost certainly faster as well.
08:55	cemerick	&(flatten {:a :b})
08:55	sexpbot	⟹ ()
08:55	Innar	sexpbot is some kind of script that recognizes clojure forms and evals them?
08:55	cemerick	^^ feels wrong
08:55	Raynes	sexpbot does a lot more than evaluate clojure code.
08:55	Raynes	$whatis sexpbot
08:55	sexpbot	sexpbot does not exist in my database.
08:55	jweiss_	hehe
08:55	Raynes	Something wiped my whatis db.
08:56	Raynes	Something being me, accidentally.
08:56	Raynes	http://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot
08:56	neotyk`	I think cemerick's solution has one less node
08:56	cemerick	jweiss_: use whatever reads better to you :-)
08:57	jarpiain	,(flatten (seq {:a [1 2] :b '(3 4)}))
08:57	clojurebot	(:a 1 2 :b 3 4)
08:57	jweiss_	cemerick: even though the flatten one seems more readable, i don't like flatten. so i'll go with yours
08:57	Raynes	&(mapcat identity {:a [1 2] :b '(3 4)})
08:57	sexpbot	⟹ (:a [1 2] :b (3 4))
08:58	Raynes	You'd better go with his.
08:58	Raynes	His actually works.
08:58	Raynes	;)
08:58	fogus_	identity is too verbose! (mapcat #(-> %) {1 2 3 4}) :p
08:58	Kjellski	I want to write a function that prints every char in a two dimensional Character/TYPE array, but a newline at every end, what's the best way to do that?
08:58	jweiss_	Raynes: yours would have worked too, for my purposes - the vals are all strings
08:58	Raynes	&(flatten {:foo "foo" :bar "bar"})
08:58	sexpbot	⟹ ()
08:58	Raynes	&(flatten (seq {:foo "foo" :bar "bar"}))
08:58	sexpbot	⟹ (:foo "foo" :bar "bar")
08:59	cemerick	Raynes: see, that first one always bothers me
08:59	Raynes	cemerick: Indeed, I didn't notice that behavior until a moment ago.
08:59	jweiss_	that behavior is not at all obvious from the doc either.
08:59	cemerick	I'd much prefer that it simply leave unflattenable values in the seq, untouched
09:00	cemerick	&(flatten "foo")
09:00	sexpbot	⟹ ()
09:00	jweiss_	yeah, i thought flatten would basically just remove inner braces/parens
09:00	jweiss_	if there aren't any, then it's done
09:01	jweiss_	except replacing the outer braces with parens, in the case of a map
09:01	jweiss_	but maps aren't seqs... so i guess the doc isn't wrong, just leaves out what it does
09:02	cemerick	jweiss_: I don't think it leaves anything out necessarily -- just that providing it with non-Sequential values is essentially bad input
09:03	cemerick	Tossing an exception would probably be preferred, if that's the case.
09:03	jweiss_	cemerick: yeah, i just don't see why it was limited to seqs
09:03	cemerick	jweiss_: it's not -- it's limited to sequential things
09:03	jweiss_	i don't see why it can't handle maps too
09:04	jweiss_	&(flatten [:a {:b :c} :z :y])
09:04	sexpbot	⟹ (:a {:b :c} :z :y)
09:04	jweiss_	it just leaves maps alone when they're not toplevel
09:06	tonyl	ping?
09:06	clojurebot	PONG!
09:19	Kjellski	What could be the problem when "alength" was not found?
09:20	tonyl	alength? is it an object method?
09:20	tonyl	oh got it :P
09:22	Kjellski	,(doc alength)
09:22	clojurebot	"([array]); Returns the length of the Java array. Works on arrays of all types."
09:22	Kjellski	=( should I :use it in my namespace? I mean it's in clojure.core ... I don't get it ...
09:23	tonyl	gist of the code you are using it?
09:34	lrenn	cemerick: What are your thoughts on Ivy?
09:35	cemerick	lrenn: it's a good solution for dep management, if you're stuck in ant.
09:36	cemerick	I think gradle uses it too, but I might be mistaken on that.
09:37	lrenn	cemerick: Oh, you don't think it's better than maven for dependency management? How is maven better re: dep management?
09:37	lrenn	cemerick: and yes, the gradle folks were smart enough to realize that maven was not what they wanted.
09:38	cemerick	lrenn: Maybe it's not, but insofar as maven defines the standard that ivy adheres to, I'd be surprised if ivy offered much more.
09:38	cemerick	Besides, if I were to use ivy, then I'd have to use something for doing actual builds, which leaves me in the cold AFAICT.
09:38	lrenn	cemerick: ivy only adhers to that standard when it's force to stoop down to maven's leven (ie, maven compatibility) :)
09:39	lrenn	cemerick: what is wrong with lein/cake? Build tools that were built from the ground up with Clojure in mind, as opposed to maven which has been 99% built to do something other than build clojure projects.
09:39	cemerick	lrenn: nothing's wrong with lein or cake, if they meet one's requirements
09:39	lrenn	cemerick: how do lein/cake not meet your requirements?
09:40	cemerick	I don't like the reimplementation aspect of them, but shrug
09:40	cemerick	lrenn: interop with existing tools and a large plugin ecosystem for starters
09:40	lrenn	not liking the reimplementation aspect of them (what does that mean exactly?) is different thatn not meeting your requirements.
09:44	cemerick	I mean that, at least from my perspective, build tools aren't very interesting, and are orthogonal to writing Clojure applications. Insofar as the latter will inevitably require interop with platform-esque tools/environments/etc, there's far less friction involved in using what is mostly standard on the host platform, than in tackling the hairy build problem from scratch.
09:45	cemerick	i.e. if I were to ever do any serious work with ClojureCLR, I'd go find what the Microsoft camp uses for builds, and use that.
09:45	lpetit	Irenn, cemerick: my 2 cents. lein started simple, because it did not address a large spectrum of needs. My feeling is that as time passes, lein will have to cover more and more needs, as the kind of projects built with it grows. So in the end, lein will be as big as maven. I think that a better approach could be towards maven as clojure is towards java: a thin layer over existing stuff.
09:46	Kjellski	tonyl: https://gist.github.com/674172 =)
09:47	lrenn	lpetit: the large number of people who use gradle and or still use ant would disagree with that.
09:48	tonyl	Kjellski: let me take a look
09:48	lrenn	I think this thought that we have to use maven because that's what some java people use is silly. As far as I'm concerned Phil and Justin have already built a better build tool.
09:49	Kjellski	tonyl: thanks!
09:49	lrenn	The only real objection I've heard is that you lose the plugin support.
09:49	cemerick	lrenn: Just because someone with fewer/different requirements uses a different tool, doesn't mean that that different tool is somehow superior/better/etc.
09:50	lpetit	Irenn, cemerick: the real question I'm still asking myself is: are we throwing the baby with the bath water ? maven's syntax is something. maven's plugins ecosystem is another.
09:50	cemerick	lrenn: and tooling support. I use eclipse and hudson. Those are more important than my build tooling.
09:50	lrenn	cemerick: agreed. I still would like to stick up for lein/cake. I should not have said they are "better", but for building clojure code, I fail to see how they are inferior.
09:51	Kjellski	tonyl: Hmmm... somehow it's working now... sorry for taking your time and thanks for having a look =)
09:51	cemerick	lrenn: you don't need to stick up for them at all -- no one's tearing them down :-)
09:52	lrenn	cemerick: I see a growing chorus of people suggesting it is silly for us to use lein/cake when maven already exists. That sentiment was already expressed once during this conversation :)
09:53	cemerick	LOL @ growing chorus :-)
09:54	cemerick	For the most part, those of us that use maven for clojure builds keep our head down, because of a constant barrage of "why would you torture yourselves with that thing" comments.
09:55	tonyl	Kjellski: it works for me. also there is no need to put a for loop inside a for loop
09:55	tonyl	the for construct does it for you if you just write (for [row (range (alength scene)), col (range (alength scene))] ...)
09:56	tonyl	the most inner loop would be on the right and work it's way up to the left
09:56	tonyl	I am guessing your problem could be ns related?
10:07	lrenn	cemerick: you're right, "growing chorus" was not the correct phrase ;) Anyway, I don't think it's the blub paradox, I truly believe a build tool built and designed specifically for clojure is preferable to maven. I appreciate your time.
10:08	cemerick	lrenn: I'd disagree re: blub, esp. if "building clojure" is the only aspect of the charter. Build, release, and deployment is far more wide-ranging than that.
10:09	lrenn	cemerick: i include release/deployment as well.
10:23	bartj	can someone please give an example of a java "NaN" stored inside a clojure variable?
10:26	tonyl	(def NaN java.lang.Double/NaN)
10:26	tonyl	(def NaN Double/NaN)
10:27	bartj	tonyl, thanks...
10:28	bartj	I am wondering why does this result in an error: (read-json (json-str [Double/NaN]))
10:28	tonyl	oh, that is nat a javascript NaN though
10:28	bartj	because (json-str [Double/NaN]) certainly does not throw an error
10:28	bartj	so why is read-json complaining?
10:28	bartj	is this a bug ?
10:29	tonyl	because it needs a javascript NaN since it reads json which is a based on javascript
10:29	bartj	I think the NaN comes from some Java code
10:29	bartj	how best to gracefully handle this case?
10:30	bartj	it would be nice if NaN is stored as a string
10:30	tonyl	you could with javascript Math.sqrt(-5).toString()
10:31	chouser	that's not valid json
10:31	chouser	surely
10:32	bartj	chouser, I completely agree
10:33	bartj	but, I am helpless since it comes from some Java code I have no control of
10:33	chouser	sounds like JSON defines no way of storing NaN
10:33	bartj	:(
10:34	tonyl	yeah I would say store it as a string "NaN"
10:34	chouser	you'll have to either use an "extended" JSON (who doesn't, after all) or encode it differently.
10:35	bartj	hmm, thanks guys
10:36	chouser	I suppose if json-str is shooting for conformance, it should complain when you give in NaN
10:37	tonyl	(require '[clojure.contrib.json :as json])
10:37	tonyl	&(require '[clojure.contrib.json :as json])
10:37	sexpbot	⟹ nil
10:37	tonyl	(json/json-str [Double/NaN])
10:37	tonyl	&(json/json-str [Double/NaN])
10:37	sexpbot	⟹ "[NaN]"
10:38	tonyl	&(json/read-json (json/json-str [Double/NaN]))
10:38	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: JSON error (unexpected character): N
10:39	bartj	chouser, my point exactly!
10:39	bartj	because (json-str Double/NaN) works just fine
10:40	tonyl	&(json/read-json (json/json-str [Double/NaN]) false)
10:40	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: JSON error (unexpected character): N
10:40	chouser	bartj: well, maybe it doesn't work since it generates something that is not technically valid JSON
10:41	tonyl	&(json/read-json (json/json-str ["NaN"]) false)
10:41	sexpbot	⟹ ["NaN"]
10:43	chouser	some options for encoding NaN: 1) "NaN", 2) NaN, 3) { "double": 0, "isNaN": true }
10:43	bartj	&(json/read-json (json/json-str [Double/NaN]) false)
10:43	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: JSON error (unexpected character): N
10:43	chouser	2 is what json-str is doing, but it's not valid JSON
10:43	stuartsierra	json-str should throw an error on NaN
10:44	stuartsierra	because it's not defined in the JSON spec
10:44	bartj	tonyl, why doesn't false work in my case ?
10:45	bartj	stuartsierra, is this a bug ?
10:45	stuartsierra	yes
10:45	tonyl	because NaN either way when it is compile in json it is not a valid name
10:46	tonyl	in fact even in javascript you have to create a NaN variable
10:46	tonyl	like Math.sqrt(-5)
10:46	tonyl	in javascript there is only the NaN error and the isNaN() function
10:47	tonyl	I am guessing when read-json tries to get the value in the array it fails
10:47	bartj	tonyl, I mean you don't need the false
10:47	tonyl	on the read-json call?
10:47	bartj	&(json/read-json (json/json-str ["NaN"]))
10:47	sexpbot	⟹ ["NaN"]
10:48	bartj	tonyl, yes
10:48	samx	&(json/read-json (json/json-str Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY) false)
10:48	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: JSON error (unexpected character): I
10:48	tonyl	no you don't
10:48	samx	(json/read-json (json/json-str Double/NEGATIVE_INFINITY) false)
10:48	samx	&(json/read-json (json/json-str Double/NEGATIVE_INFINITY) false)
10:48	sexpbot	⟹ -Infinity
10:48	tonyl	now that is weird
10:49	bartj	I am unable to understand what the false param does from the documentation
10:49	tonyl	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.json/read-json
10:49	stuartsierra	keywordized map keys
11:01	bartj	thanks everyone
11:25	opqdonut	how can I cast a char into a byte in clojure?
11:25	opqdonut	,(byte \c)
11:25	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
11:25	opqdonut	,(byte (.charValue \c))
11:25	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
11:26	cemerick	,(byte (int \c))
11:26	clojurebot	99
11:26	opqdonut	ah.
11:26	opqdonut	thanks
11:41	chouser	I wonder if that's acceptable, in light of what rhickey has said about coersion functions being for interop
11:42	cemerick	chouser: I was assuming opqdonut was asking for an interop context…
11:43	alpheus	I need to learn about configuration for clojure programs. I've declared a few vars that must be bound before my program's external functions are called but don't know where to have the user store them. Loading a clojure file specified by the user seems convenient, but how do I handle namespaces etc.
11:43	opqdonut	interop yes
11:43	opqdonut	building some packets in a bytebuffer
12:29	xkb	hi
12:30	tonyl	hello
12:31	quoll	Does anyone know why leinengen might complain "That's not a task" on autodoc if I have a :dev-dependenies entry of [autodoc "0.7.1"] ???
12:31	quoll	(with corrected spelling of dev-dependencies, of course) :-)
12:32	amalloy	quoll: i don't use autodoc, but is it possible you need to specify an organization id to help it find the autodoc jar?
12:32	hiredman	quoll: did you run lein deps?
12:33	xkb	does clojure have something like haskell's $ for function application?
12:33	replaca	quoll: I don't think the autoodoc plugin is working in the latest lein
12:33	amalloy	xkb: i don't know what $ does in haskell, but yes :P
12:33	replaca	quoll: it suffers from version-itis, which I'm working to fix
12:33	amalloy	probably the answer is (apply f arg args)
12:34	quoll	hiredman, no. I'm new to leinengen, and I figured it would do the deps automatically. Running now
12:34	xkb	amalloy: its like shorthand: sum (map sqrt [...]) becomes sum $ map sqrt etc.
12:34	quoll	replaca: should I go with 0.7.0?
12:34	xkb	I have this really long line of function applciations in clojure, and want to make it a bit more readable
12:34	hiredman	->
12:34	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
12:34	amalloy	xkb: we don't have that, but -> and ->> are similar
12:35	hiredman	,(-> 1 inc inc inc inc)
12:35	clojurebot	5
12:35	quoll	hiredman: deps worked. Thank you.
12:35	xkb	amalloy: Ok, will check them on the clojure site! Thanks
12:35	amalloy	xkb: for example: ##(->> (range) (filter even?) (drop 100) (take 5))
12:35	sexpbot	⟹ (200 202 204 206 208)
12:36	xkb	amalloy: ahh exactly what I was looking for
12:36	replaca	replaca: you can try it, but I think the problems run deeper than that
12:36	xkb	nice
12:36	replaca	leinigen has moved forward, but autodoc hasn't
12:36	amalloy	xkb: great
12:37	replaca	(I meant quoll)
12:37	technomancy	replaca: what's the root problem?
12:37	replaca	quoll: so is autodoc working for you, then
12:37	replaca	technomancy: (we talked about this a long time ago)
12:37	quoll	replaca: yes indeed. Browsing the html now
12:37	quoll	much easier than (doc .....) :-)
12:37	replaca	technomancy: the fact that autodoc wants to be both a lib and an executable
12:38	replaca	quoll: that's great news
12:38	technomancy	ah, right.
12:38	replaca	technomancy: and therefore has its own clojure version deps
12:38	replaca	technomancy: I'm surprised to hear it works at all now, but my plan is to make a shim that goes between
12:39	replaca	technomancy: and does an exec in proj
12:39	replaca	technomancy: just haven't gotten to it yet
12:40	technomancy	replaca: you should know about the :eval-in-leiningen key you can use to avoid spinning up tests for the project in a separate process.
12:43	replaca	technomancy: right, but doesn't that use whatever version of clojure that lein is using?
12:44	technomancy	yeah, I don't think you can avoid making the executable its own project
12:44	replaca	"end of file while reading" would be a whole lot more useful if it told me which file! (and maybe the beginning of the top-level form as well)
12:45	replaca	technomancy: and that's not really a big deal. Still, I'm a little befuddled about how it works at all currently. That 0.7 version quoll is using in based on Clojure 1.1 and I swear it didn't used to work
12:47	quoll	replaca: I'm not doing anything fancy with it either. Just added the :dep-dependencies entry and ran it. No other settings at all
12:48	replaca	quoll: if it works at all, I would expect it to be easy :). still I'm surprised (and happy - I thought folks using lein were suffering)
12:51	quoll	yeah, I figured it was an all or nothing deal, but then again, I also figured that it didn't hurt to let you know that I hadn't done anything unexpected
12:53	replaca	quoll: thanks!
12:54	quoll	np
12:54	quoll	thanks for working on autodoc :-)
12:55	replaca	quoll: I try! :)
12:56	ninjudd	cemerick: just to be clear, maven is not the backend for cake. we use maven only for dependencies, and lrenn is working on making that pluggable so you can use ivy instead
12:56	ninjudd	though we plan to still support using maven too
12:57	cemerick	ninjudd: a backend, then? :-)
12:57	cemerick	ninjudd: do you have two sentences on "Why ivy?"
12:58	ninjudd	27 deps -> 2 deps. i'm sure lrenn can expand on that ;)
12:59	ninjudd	3 deps.. sorry
12:59	cemerick	ninjudd: oh, I was wondering more about capability
13:00	ninjudd	cemerick: from my research, it looks like ivy can do everything with regard to deps that maven can and more.
13:00	cemerick	yeah, I knew it was at least equivalent.
13:01	cemerick	anyway, I didn't intend to open up another build tool discussion :-)
13:01	ninjudd	cemerick: i'm working on a response to your mailing list message
13:02	ninjudd	i might be misunderstanding, but i don't see what we would get from using maven instead of a 4 line macro
13:03	ninjudd	sounds like it is going in the wrong directlion: simple -> complex
13:04	ninjudd	cemerick: i'd prefer to someday have cake implemented purely in clojure eventually (save for a very small client script if you want a persistent jvm)
13:04	ninjudd	with options to use maven/ivy for deps if you really need something only they offer
13:15	jcromartie	is there any sort of work for image-based Clojure development?
13:16	jcromartie	I've always found it to be a very productive way to program but it seems to be an idea absent from mainstream languages
13:16	jcromartie	Smalltalk, Forth, common lisp even
13:17	dnolen	jcromartie: seems like something JVM would have to support directly right?
13:17	jcromartie	what would a Clojure image "look like"? maybe some special def forms?
13:17	jcromartie	I think it could be bolted onto the JVM
13:17	jcromartie	forget about threads and other objects at first
13:18	jcromartie	I'm mostly concerned with the code I write in a repl... sometimes I want it to stick around
13:19	pdlogan	(having worked for gemstone, I can attest that an image-based anything on the jvm is... more problematic than you might first imagine)
13:20	dnolen	jcromartie: persistent jvms are fun that way, one thing I like about cake, I can try some stuff in ns user, quit, come back later and it's still there.
13:20	jcromartie	cake does that?
13:20	jcromartie	pdlogan: oh cool, you're a smalltalk vet?
13:21	pdlogan	yes
13:21	jcromartie	pdlogan: I'm recently enamored with Pharo and Seaside
13:21	dnolen	jcromartie: yes it, tho if you restart your machine it's gone of course.
13:22	jcromartie	ah, I see
13:31	jfields	what's the easiest way to get from {:a 565 :b 878 :c 565 :d 997} to {:b 878 :d 997} ? (removing all kv pairs where the value equals X)
13:33	dnolen	(->> (remove (fn [[k v]] (= v 565)) {:a 565 :b 878 :c 565 :d 997}) (into {}))
13:33	dnolen	,(->> (remove (fn [[k v]] (= v 565)) {:a 565 :b 878 :c 565 :d 997}) (into {}))
13:33	clojurebot	{:b 878, :d 997}
13:33	dnolen	is one way
13:34	jfields	dnolen, thanks
13:37	LOPP	what's the best way to merge/concatenate sets
13:37	jfields	LOPP look in clojure.set
13:37	jfields	there's union
13:40	chouser	or use into
13:40	dnolen	,(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (if (not= v 565) (assoc m k v) m)) {} {:a 565 :b 878 :c 565 :d 997})
13:40	clojurebot	{:d 997, :b 878}
13:40	dnolen	jfields: that's more verbose but faster than my first suggestion
13:41	technomancy	into uses transients
13:41	chouser	maybe dissoc would be good
13:43	chouser	,(let [m {:a 565 :b 878 :c 565 :d 997}] (reduce (fn [m [k v]] (if (not= v 565) m (dissoc m k))) m m))
13:43	clojurebot	{:b 878, :d 997}
13:43	dnolen	chouser: nice, but turns out it's about the same speed as my second attempt
13:44	chouser	dnolen: on a that small array-map?
13:45	dnolen	chouser: yeah, it seems so
13:46	chouser	I would guess it would matter more on a larger hash-map. And then probably depend on whether most of the input entries match or not.
13:48	fogus_	Slight mod to chouser's:
13:48	fogus_	,(let [X {:a 565 :b 878 :c 565 :d 997} R #{565}] (reduce (fn [m [k v]] (if (R v) (dissoc m k) m)) X X))
13:48	clojurebot	{:b 878, :d 997}
13:49	chouser	nice
13:49	chouser	the local is to avoid re-evalling the set?
13:50	fogus_	That is one advantage... the other being it's easier for me to add/remove values when testing
13:51	chouser	I've been recently re-remembering that quoting collections avoids re-evaluation
13:52	chouser	(if ('#{565} v) ...)
13:53	jarpiain	the compiler would cache that set since all the elements are compile-time constants
13:53	fogus_	chouser: Nice! Mind if I use that as a @learnclojure tweet?
13:54	chouser	jarpiain: the Clojure compiler, or hotspot?
13:54	jarpiain	at least cljc does and I copied that from Compiler.java :)
13:54	chouser	hmmm
13:54	chouser	jarpiain: only because it's in the function position?
13:55	chouser	I was pretty sure I looked at the bytecode for this not long ago.
13:56	LOPP	I don't understand this talk about collection re-evaluation
13:57	chouser	,(map (fn [x] #{x}) (range 5))
13:57	clojurebot	(#{0} #{1} #{2} #{3} #{4})
13:57	chouser	LOPP: in that case, the #{x} clearly has to be re-evaluated for each value of x, to generate all those sets.
13:57	jarpiain	in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/d7787a758031fcc21f16c613cb759c5a6bee7a8a/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L2719 it checks if all the elements are LiteralExpr
13:58	LOPP	for my question on merging sets earlier I think I went with (apply (partial conj set1) set2)
13:58	LOPP	that's clear yes
13:58	hiredman	chouser: well, the set doesn't need to be reevaluated
13:58	hiredman	x needs to be re-evaluated before the set is created
13:59	dnolen	jarpiain: yeah I remember seeing that commit, constant datastructures optimization, especially useful in cases like [], #{}, {} etc
14:00	amalloy	LOPP: that's equivalent to (apply conj set1 set2)
14:02	chouser	jarpiain: clearly you are correct. I wonder what I'm thinking of.
14:03	chouser	fogus_: might want to skip tweeting that one. :-)
14:07	cemerick	ninjudd: simplicity shouldn't be an objective in and of itself IMO.
14:07	cemerick	i.e. function before form
14:10	dnolen	cemerick: "function before form", that's the root cause of most bad software I'd say ;) "function and form"
14:10	cemerick	dnolen: I'd agree with you in almost every other domain.
14:10	dnolen	cemerick: we can agree to disagree about that.
14:11	danlarkin	I'm going to throw you all off your game and say "neither function NOR form!"
14:11	danlarkin	ha ha
14:12	cemerick	dnolen: It's forced upon us by the tools and community issues.
14:12	ninjudd	cemerick: so what function do we get by replacing a 4 line macro with pmaven?
14:12	fogus_	For once I wish someone would say, "Let's disagree to agree"
14:12	dnolen	fogus_: ha!
14:12	cemerick	(inc fogus_ )
14:12	sexpbot	⟹ 1
14:12	cemerick	ninjudd: I thought I was clear about that in my msg to that ggroup.
14:12	fogus_	Hmmm, my karma seems to be stuck at 1. :(
14:12	cemerick	(inc fogus_ )
14:12	sexpbot	⟹ 2
14:13	cemerick	shazam!
14:14	cemerick	ninjudd: The endgame re: cake, lein, pmaven, etc. isn't great if things continue as they are now. Either Clojure is going to get really significant use in industry or not; in the former case, maven/pmaven will be in widespread use, but if people can't work together because of their build tool preferences/requirements, that does no one any good.
14:16	hiredman	cemerick: I must say say, speaking of industry, sonian ditched maven for lein and everyone is happier for it
14:16	cemerick	hiredman: plucky startups aren't what I really had in mind. But, good data point.
14:17	ninjudd	cemerick: maybe i'm being dense, but i think we actually lose function by using pmaven to parse project.clj instead of the clojure reader
14:18	cemerick	ninjudd: you can make pmaven parse project.clj however you want
14:18	cemerick	i.e. you and technomancy and whoever else cares about the topic would be in control of the mapping between project.clj and the POM
14:19	ninjudd	by reimplementing the clojure reader?
14:19	cemerick	no
14:19	cemerick	pmaven has all of clojure at its disposal
14:19	lrenn	cemerick: who says the industry will use maven/pmaven? That didn't happen with groovy, what makes you think it will happen with clojure?
14:19	amalloy	i don't see clojure.[contrib].string containing an equivalent to clojurel.core/split-at. is there a reason c.c.string has take/drop/partition but not split-at? eg, there's something else i should be using instead?
14:20	stuartsierra	c.c.string is dead
14:20	ninjudd	cemerick: does pmaven currently use the clojure reader to parse pom.clj? i was under the impression that it didn't
14:20	stuartsierra	replaced by clojure.string
14:20	amalloy	stuartsierra: since when? c.c.string has all kinds of nice stuff c.string doesn't
14:20	amalloy	in 1.2, anyway
14:20	stuartsierra	too bad
14:21	amalloy	stuartsierra: why?
14:21	cemerick	lrenn: Every exposure I've had to groovy in "corporate" environments involved it being built using maven, not gradle. shrug
14:21	stuartsierra	not enough value, the important stuff is in clojure.string now
14:22	cemerick	ninjudd: I don't know what the implementation details are, but if jvanzyl was accurate in his email from a few weeks ago (you got that, yes?), then there are no limits on what you can use to implement the de/serializer for pmaven POM files.
14:23	ninjudd	cemerick: you still haven't told me what function we get for paying the price of a very large set of 20+ dependencies
14:24	ninjudd	cemerick: i would be happy to share my implementation of defproject as a separate project though, so pmaven can use it
14:24	stuartsierra	support for all Maven plugins
14:24	cemerick	ninjudd: Again, it's in my msg to that ggroup. (a) One implementation of the model, not 3+, (b) free interop with all tools that support maven 3/pmaven, (c) access to all maven plugins
14:25	cemerick	(http://groups.google.com/group/projectclj---spec/browse_frm/thread/855ce112689fb33f for those following along)
14:25	ninjudd	using pmaven to parse project.clj doesn't give us support for all maven plugins. the price for that would be even higher
14:25	ninjudd	the price for that would be selling our soul to maven, which i'm not prepared to do
14:25	cemerick	oh, crud
14:26	stuartsierra	oh dear god
14:27	cemerick	ninjudd: Do you have a hyperbole-free objection?
14:27	ninjudd	what i mean by that is, i'm not willing to have the cake's core implementation be dependent on maven
14:27	cemerick	no one suggested that.
14:28	fogus_	cemerick: I am definitely stealing that phrase for my next all-hands meeting
14:28	cemerick	"you could add commands to your
14:28	cemerick	respective frontends to drive various pmaven/maven-provided
14:28	cemerick	functionality, such as generalized deployment, using existing maven
14:28	cemerick	plugins, etc."
14:28	ninjudd	i would love to have a cake plugin that provides support for all maven plugins in cake
14:28	cemerick	ninjudd: If you want to reimplement commodity build processes, that's your perogative, but that doesn't mean you can't delegate off to pmaven to invoke maven plugins.
14:28	ninjudd	(LauJensen and i have discussed creating such a plugin)
14:29	ninjudd	cemerick: it sounds like i misunderstood your message then. i thought you were suggesting we depend on pmaven for the model
14:30	ninjudd	(which is why i asked here before responding)
14:30	cemerick	Yes, I'm suggesting that you use the POM. It's the only formal build model anywhere, and is the gateway to interop with essentially all JVM-land build/deploy/mgmt tooling.
14:31	stuartsierra	Using the model doesn't mean you have to use any particular implementation of that model.
14:31	slyrus	so... when you guys live on the bleeding edge with, say, 1.3.0-alpha3 and the corresponding contrib jars, do you just pick them up from maven/clojars or do you build your own jars?
14:31	cemerick	what stuartsierra said
14:31	ninjudd	i'm happy to produce a pom.xml, if that is what you mean
14:32	slyrus	cemerick: what are "commodity build processes"?
14:32	tonyl	i build my own
14:32	stuartsierra	Maven / Hudson / Nexus
14:32	danlarkin	formal build model is made up? First you're asserting that it is something, and then you're asserting that it is something desirable
14:32	slyrus	tonyl: and you install them in your local maven repo?
14:32	cemerick	slyrus: compiling code, assembling jar files and other artifacts, deploying them to repositories, etc.
14:32	slyrus	commodity?
14:32	tonyl	I don't use maven neither lein or anything else
14:33	slyrus	ah, good for you
14:33	ninjudd	cemerick: currently cake uses ant for most of that
14:33	tonyl	just a bash script the runs the repl or the clj script i pass it to it
14:34	tonyl	i should start learning more about them though, my projects are starting to get bigger
14:35	cemerick	ninjudd: that's fine, but totally orthogonal to the discussion of the model
14:35	ninjudd	cemerick: so what do you mean when you say "use the POM"?
14:35	tonyl	i thought somebody posted that clojars has an alpha 1.3.0 though
14:38	pppaul	$8ball women?
14:38	sexpbot	pppaul: Reply hazy, try again.
14:38	ninjudd	$8ball what does "use the POM" mean?
14:38	sexpbot	ninjudd: Ask again later.
14:39	ninjudd	:)
14:39	lrenn	stuartsierra: but the clojure community has no say over that model right?
14:40	stuartsierra	We have spies inside Sonatype.
14:41	pppaul	what model?
14:41	slyrus	so clojure contrib is now split amongst 76 jars?
14:41	lrenn	So, it should have been "selling our souls to sonatype" as opposed to maven...and would thus not be hyperbole.
14:41	pppaul	has there been a photo shoot?
14:41	stuartsierra	I don't have a soul anyway.
14:41	pppaul	76 jars... wow
14:42	stuartsierra	And I prefer to call it "participating in the broader Java community."
14:42	stuartsierra	This includes things like getting Clojure and major libraries into the central Maven repository network.
14:42	slyrus	am I the only one who thinks that the name "complete-[version].jar" is a bit ambiguous?
14:43	stuartsierra	no
14:43	stuartsierra	Got a better name?
14:43	slyrus	complete what???
14:43	hiredman	clojure-contrib-complete-[version].jar
14:43	slyrus	contrib-complete would certainly be better
14:43	pppaul	obviously string completion
14:43	slyrus	or what hiredman says
14:43	stuartsierra	complete is really just for legacy compatibility
14:44	slyrus	ok, so I should be using the other 75 jars instead?
14:44	stuartsierra	New projects under the "contrib" umbrella will have their own repositories and releases.
14:44	cemerick	I'd be surprised if further contrib umbrella artifacts were set up…?
14:44	stuartsierra	the "legacy" contrib with 70-some modules will be phased out I hope
14:44	cemerick	slyrus: you probably only need a handful, suited to your project's actual dependencies.
14:45	slyrus	fair enough
14:45	stuartsierra	as a bonus, this makes your project's footprint smaller
14:46	stuartsierra	the 70-module thing was my (failed) attempt to make it easier to contribute
14:46	ninjudd	stuartsierra: there is a subset of the larger java community that only uses ant and ivy without using the POM at all
14:46	stuartsierra	ninjudd: they're still using Maven's group/artifact/version and repository layout
14:46	hiredman	sure it's only for legacy compat, but complete.jar is the worst jar name ever
14:46	slyrus	so if I'm following along at home and building my own clojure-contrib I just do some #!/bin/bash hackery to install each jar into my local maven repo?
14:46	stuartsierra	hiredman: yeah
14:47	stuartsierra	slyrus: no just run "mvn install" at the top level
14:47	stuartsierra	hiredman: I've got bigger problems
14:47	ninjudd	stuartsierra: yes, i don't plan to move away from using group/artifact/version, but what does "use the POM" mean other than that?
14:47	ninjudd	does it mean, use the project lifecycle goal names that maven uses?
14:48	slyrus	Is there a -n (as in make -n) argument for mvn? as in "tell me what you're going to do, but don't actually do it"
14:48	ninjudd	does it mean: support maven plugins?
14:48	stuartsierra	it will mean differet things to different people
14:48	stuartsierra	To me, it means it is possible to build, test, and deploy the project using only Maven.
14:48	stuartsierra	even if you also support other tools
14:50	stuartsierra	slyrus: yes
14:50	tonyl	slyrus: there is a README file in the top level describing what you can do with mvn
14:50	ninjudd	stuartsierra: so build, test and deploy are the only goals you care about then?
14:50	lrenn	stuartsierra: no they're not.
14:51	lrenn	stuartsierra: see springsource.
14:51	stuartsierra	what about it?
14:51	slyrus	tonyl: I prefer to do as little as possible with mvn :)
14:51	cemerick	ninjudd: AFAIC, it means defining a single canonical clojure serialization of the POM, ideally whose structure and semantics has a passing resemblance to maven's.
14:51	slyrus	I see it as an unnecessary evil
14:52	stuartsierra	cemerick: that would be nice
14:52	cemerick	ninjudd: "test" and "deploy" are phases, not goals :-)
14:52	ninjudd	ok, maven newbie question. can i change the default locations of src, test, target, etc?
14:52	stuartsierra	yes
14:52	cemerick	ninjudd: of course
14:52	ninjudd	cemerick: phases. that's the word i was searching for
14:52	lrenn	stuartsierra: https://ebr.springsource.com/repository/app/faq
14:52	cemerick	ninjudd: see https://github.com/sonatype/polyglot-maven/tree/master/pmaven-clojure for the current pmaven clojure impl.
14:53	stuartsierra	lrenn: ok, that's OSGi
14:53	stuartsierra	The only other widely-used JAR repository format
14:53	tonyl	slyrus I understand, to get my contrib 1.3.0 i just mvn install and rename the resulting jar
14:53	ninjudd	cemerick: so what about features that are only implemented by cake or lein? where do those go in the universal POM?
14:54	stuartsierra	as plugins
14:54	slyrus	what's the difference between standalone and complete?
14:54	stuartsierra	standalone = one big jar
14:54	jfields	if you don't care about the result, for example, you wanted to log a bunch of things, which is better (doall (map log-stuff coll)) or (doseq [i coll] (log-stuff i))
14:54	stuartsierra	complete = lots of little jars
14:54	ninjudd	stuartsierra: what about features only implemented by maven? plugins too?
14:54	cemerick	ninjudd: what stuartsierra said, or: it's perfectly fine if stuff that's above and beyond what the formal POM is included IMO. But it should come with big warning flags about it likely not working with other tools.
14:55	dnolen	jfields: doseq reflects the side-effect-y nature of the code better
14:55	stuartsierra	what cemerick said
14:55	lrenn	stuartsierra: ?? OSGI is not a jar repository format.
14:55	jfields	dnolen, agreed. performance wise any pref?
14:55	stuartsierra	it's a way of packing up JARs for distribution tho
14:55	cemerick	lrenn: what's this about OSGi?
14:56	stuartsierra	SpringSource has a "bundle repository"
14:56	lrenn	stuartsierra: um, sort of. But that that has nothing to do with the format of their repository.
14:56	dnolen	jfields: doseq is strict, doall is realizing lazy computations. doseq is probably going to be faster for side-effect-y things.
14:56	cemerick	lrenn: presumably similar in concept to p2, I suppose?
14:56	jfields	thanks.
14:56	stuartsierra	and the springsource repo still follows the maven/ivy layout
14:57	jfields	why is there no (doseq f coll) -- (doseq [i coll] (f i)) feels so verbose.
14:57	slyrus	stuartsierra: so what's in complete.jar if not the contents of all of the little jars?
14:57	stuartsierra	nothing
14:57	stuartsierra	it's just their as a dependency
14:57	stuartsierra	there
14:58	stuartsierra	lein/maven dependencies need "complete.jar" to be a real file to work
14:58	slyrus	oh, so we're lying to our build tools? cool.
14:58	stuartsierra	rub it in. I can take it
14:58	cemerick	slyrus: not lying -- just getting around there being no support for multiple POM inheritence :-P
14:59	dnolen	jfields: just a macro away :)
14:59	jfields	dnolen, indeed.
14:59	jfields	thanks.
15:00	dnolen	jfields: doseq supports list comprehension style things, something to consider.
15:01	lrenn	stuartsierra: no, it actually doesn't. It may look that way to you, but the way organizations are handled is different.
15:03	amalloy	jfields: (dorun (map f coll))
15:04	cemerick	lrenn: am I simply imagining the directions for how to use the spring bundle repo with maven, then?
15:05	lrenn	cemerick: the urls are different, the "ivy" version starts with /ivy.
15:06	cemerick	lrenn: so I guess they explicitly provide direct support for maven and ivy. Is that bad?
15:07	lrenn	cemerick: no, it's not bad at all. As someone who uses ivy and spring at work, I am very grateful they do so :)
15:07	cemerick	Cool.
15:08	cemerick	Then everything is unicorns and rainbows. :-)
15:08	malkomalko	quick question.. I'm really loving clojure lately.. ya know, gettin' into the whole (lisp) thang... but alas, I feel like I'm turning into an ahole.. is that ok?
15:08	cemerick	malkomalko: you mean you feel "Smug Lisp Weenie" syndrome coming on? ;-)
15:09	lrenn	malkomalko: "Just because we Lisp programmers are better than everyone else is no excuse for us to be arrogant." --Erann Gat
15:11	hiredman	~#19
15:11	clojurebot	19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing.
15:17	cemerick	malkomalko: Fight the urge. :-) Patience, empathy, and kindness are always called for, even if you've a sense of grandiosity.
15:18	malkomalko	I wear a size 7 1/2 hat, I'm just worried my head's going to get a little too big
15:18	malkomalko	but it's a lot of fun :)
15:19	bobo_	putting the log of this channel on a webpage is the best thing since sliced bread! so many times it solved my problems via google :-)
15:21	arkh	trying to understand how memoize works (and underlying clojure by association) and the first question I have is: how is mem retained between calls? It looks like it falls out of lexical (let) scope.
15:23	slyrus	so all of my "dependencies" specify a particular version. How do I find out what the "current" version for something like swank-clojure is?
15:23	stuartsierra	slyrus: at the moment, search clojuars
15:23	stuartsierra	*clojars
15:24	lrenn	speaking of clojars, does anyone know if Alex (ato) is still maintaining it?
15:25	slyrus	stuartsierra: http://clojars.org/search?q=swank-clojure
15:26	slyrus	clojars searching is pretty lame it seems
15:26	samx	arkh, mem is in the lexical scope of the function 'memoize' returns. the returned function retains it's lexical scope as a lexical closure, so every time you call the returned function, it's accessing the same local variable.. it's not retained between differnt calls to 'memoize', only to the function returned by memoize
15:26	abedra	slyrus: that won't actually pull up swank-clojure
15:26	stuartsierra	slyrus: yeah
15:26	abedra	slyrus: you have to search for swank
15:26	abedra	and then find it
15:27	stuartsierra	clojars definitely needs work, it's been kind of in limbo for a while
15:27	abedra	yes
15:27	stuartsierra	dliebke was experimenting with alternatives
15:27	abedra	the search has gotten a little better, but exact matches still don't work
15:27	slyrus	mind you, I don't actually want to use clojars, just to know what the latest version is
15:27	abedra	stuartsierra: yeah, cljr works quite well :)
15:27	abedra	slyrus: yeah, that's what i use it for as well
15:28	slyrus	and I see swank-clojure doesn't have a pom.xml, so mvn install doesn't DTRT
15:29	slyrus	not that I'm complaining about swank-clojure not supporting maven of course...
15:30	ninjudd	slyrus: 'lein install' should work, or 'lein pom && mvn install'
15:30	ninjudd	s/lein/cake/
15:30	sexpbot	<ninjudd> slyrus: 'cake install' should work, or 'cake pom && mvn install'
15:30	ninjudd	(also)
15:30	slyrus	oh, thanks. that's certainly easier than export SWANKDIR=~/.emacs.d/site-lisp/swank-clojure
15:30	slyrus	mvn install:install-file -DgroupId=swank-clojure -DartifactId=swank-clojure \
15:30	cemerick	stuartsierra: nexus on the backend with a slick search UI tapping whatever APIs it provides would seem to be an obvious option?
15:30	slyrus	-Dversion=1.3.0-SNAPSHOT -Dpackaging=jar -Dfile=${SWANKDIR}/swank-clojure-1.3.0-SNAPSHOT.jar
15:30	slyrus	whoops
15:30	slyrus	ninjudd: oh, the bait and switch!
15:30	stuartsierra	cemerick: yeah, I like Nexus
15:31	slyrus	I thought "lein install" sounded nice :)
15:31	cemerick	Well, nexus works. :-) I don't like that UI toolkit.
15:31	slyrus	now I see I need cake
15:31	ninjudd	slyrus: i figured you were more likely to have lein which is why i said that first
15:31	slyrus	indeed
15:31	stuartsierra	cemerick: yeah, esp. the fact that the login form doesn't autocomplete
15:31	ninjudd	but i wanted to make sure someone watching along at home knew that either would work ;)
15:33	arkh	samx: thanks; your explanation helps me understand both memoize and closures better
15:33	dnolen	slyrus: cake/lein install is awesome
15:36	slyrus	yecch... clojure-1.3.0-alpha3 and clojure-1.2.0 on the classpath :(
15:42	slyrus	shouldn't clojure.jar be a dev-dependency of swank-clojure so it doesn't get pulled into projects that use swank-clojure?
15:46	arkh	in memoize, how does the sequence 'args' work as a key to the map referred to by 'mem'? Isn't the sequence '(:one 2) a different sequence every time its used?
15:49	samx	arkh, 'memoize' function isn't really using 'args' for anything.. it's just returning a function that has a formal parameter 'args'.. so 'args' won't be bound to a value, until you invoke a call to the function that was returned by 'memoize'
15:49	hircus	slyrus: but how can you have a Clojure project without depending on clojure.jar ?
15:50	slyrus	hircus: dev-dependency
15:51	hircus	slyrus: sure. but what are you trying to achieve? a project.clj that has no dependencies and only a single dev-dependency?
15:51	amalloy	arkh: ##(= [:one 2] [:one 2])
15:51	sexpbot	⟹ true
15:51	slyrus	I'm trying to have my own projects which have swank-clojure as a dev-dependency not pull in the version of clojure that was used to build the swank-clojure jar
15:51	hircus	ah
15:52	slyrus	why would i want 1.2.0 and 1.3.0 on the classpath? seems like a recipe for disaster
15:52	stuartsierra	slyrus: you can declare an exclusion
15:52	hircus	so your project is built against clojure 1.3.0 alpha but swank pulls in 1.2.0 for its own use
15:52	stuartsierra	not ideal, maybe, but it works
15:52	slyrus	hircus: yes
15:52	amalloy	arkh: maps use = and hashcode to index things, so equivalent sequences will be looked up correctly even if they're not identical objects: ##((juxt = identical?) [:one 2] [:one 2])
15:52	sexpbot	⟹ [true false]
15:53	hircus	have you tried a newer version of Swank -- they have 1.3.0 snapshots, I think
15:53	slyrus	stuartsierra: or I can change my local swank-clojure/project.clj to pull in clojure as a dev-dependency and everything seems fine
15:53	slyrus	hircus: this is from the latest swank-clojure git HEAD
15:53	hircus	hmm
15:53	stuartsierra	yeah, you'll have to take that up with swank-clojure's current maintainer
15:53	slyrus	technomancy?
15:53	clojurebot	technomancy is to blame for all failures
15:54	slyrus	you the man, clojurebot
15:54	arkh	amalloy: that actually sounds fascinating - I need to look at the relevant source
15:55	stuartsierra	clojurebot: stuartsierra ?
15:55	clojurebot	stuartsierra is awesome
15:55	slyrus	surely there's an army of swank-clojure using minions here?
15:55	stuartsierra	:)
15:55	stuartsierra	it used to say "stuartsierra is volunteering"
15:55	abedra	stuartsierra: evidently you upgraded
15:56	abedra	clojurebot: abedra ?
15:56	clojurebot	Huh?
15:56	abedra	lol
15:56	abedra	exactly
15:57	stuartsierra	:)
15:57	slyrus	so there's no magic syntax for lein's dependencies like "my-proejct-THE-NEWEST-AND-KEWLEST-VERSION-EVARRR"?
15:58	slyrus	which makes me think that clojure.jar should be a dev-dependency for all of my projects
16:00	technomancy	slyrus: swank has clojure as a dependency so you can have standalone swank sessions outside a project
16:00	stuartsierra	Yo, haters, check out "rebuild" branch at https://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure/tree/rebuild
16:00	stuartsierra	fix the tests for me
16:01	technomancy	slyrus: but if leiningen is preferring swank's version of clojure over the one you're specifying in project.clj that is a bug.
16:01	technomancy	I don't think that's what you mean though
16:02	stuartsierra	technomancy: it happens when swank is a dev-dependency
16:02	stuartsierra	you get one clojure in lib/dev and another in lib
16:02	technomancy	oh, ok; is this bad because it's messy or because it's causing actual breakage?
16:03	stuartsierra	causes breakage
16:03	stuartsierra	I work around it by using :exclusion[s org.clojure/clojure]
16:04	arkh	where's the clojure code that implements = ?
16:04	amalloy	arkh: not in clojure
16:04	amalloy	it's in java. src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT, i think
16:05	slyrus	technomancy: what do you mean a "standalone" swank session? surely whatever environment is going to try to invoke functionality from swank-clojure.jar can be smart enough to find a clojure.jar somewhere?
16:05	technomancy	so... jars from lib/ definitely have precedence over lib/dev.
16:05	arkh	amalloy: thank you
16:05	stuartsierra	ok
16:05	amalloy	arkh: and i think the relevant method is called equiv
16:05	slyrus	technomancy: I'm not sure what you mean by precedence, but they're both on the classpath
16:05	amalloy	$source =
16:05	sexpbot	= is http://is.gd/gYMyK
16:05	technomancy	slyrus: the ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure shell script starts a standalone swank session
16:05	technomancy	slyrus: the classpath operates on a first-entry-wins basis
16:06	stuartsierra	I ran into some bugs when both 1.2 and 1.3 were present
16:06	amalloy	arkh: apparently it's clojure.lang.Util.equiv(x, y)
16:06	stuartsierra	but maybe that was caused by something else
16:06	slyrus	technomancy: bin/swank-clojure sets up its own classpath!
16:07	technomancy	if they are easily reproducible then I would love to hear more, especially as there's a release soon.
16:07	slyrus	if it were pulling it from ~swank-clojure/project.clj your argument might hold water
16:08	arkh	amalloy: you rock
16:08	lrenn	does maven not do evictions? (ie, if it finds clojure 1.2 and 1.3 it will use 1.3 but tell you it isn't going to use 1.2)
16:08	technomancy	slyrus: right; that's what "lein swank" is for
16:08	technomancy	the swank-clojure shell script is something totally different
16:08	stuartsierra	lrenn: it does, but lein has 2 separate dependency lists
16:08	amalloy	sexpbot: botsnack
16:08	sexpbot	amalloy: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
16:09	slyrus	technomancy: you said " slyrus: the ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure shell script starts a standalone swank session" and "swank has clojure as a dependency so you can have standalone swank sessions outside a project"
16:10	technomancy	anyway, if you can reproduce a problem that arises from having dev-deps on the classpath please file a bug report; I need to head off
16:10	slyrus	are you saying that swank-clojure's project.clj needs clojure as a dependency to make lein happy?
16:10	slyrus	dev-deps on the classpath aren't a problem!
16:10	slyrus	two clojure jars on the classpath is the problem
16:11	slyrus	swank's clojure.jar should be a dev-dependency, if you ask me
16:11	lrenn	stuartsierra: right. thanks.
16:12	slyrus	and it's fine (as far as I'm concerned) for lein to have clojure as a dependency, rather than a dev-dependency, which should make standalone swank sessions work fine
16:18	tonyl	&(source =)
16:18	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
16:18	tonyl	~#source =
16:18	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:18	tonyl	clojurebot: help
16:18	clojurebot	help is http://clojure.org
16:18	hiredman	~source =
16:18	tonyl	$help
16:18	sexpbot	You're going to need to tell me what you want help with.
16:18	tonyl	$help source
16:18	sexpbot	tonyl: Link to the source code of a Clojure function or macro.
16:19	tonyl	$source =
16:19	sexpbot	= is http://is.gd/gYMyK
16:19	hiredman	oh hell
16:20	tonyl	$help help
16:20	sexpbot	tonyl: Get help with commands and stuff.
16:20	tonyl	$help list
16:20	sexpbot	tonyl: Lists the available help topics in the DB.
16:20	tonyl	$list
16:20	sexpbot	I know about these topics:
16:31	amalloy	tonyl: i don't think there's a list of all commands available directly from sexpbot, but there's one at https://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot/wiki/Commands
16:32	tonyl	amalloy: thanks
16:33	amalloy	sexpbot: remind me to add that
16:33	amalloy	sexpbot: also remind me to add a $remind command :P
16:34	tonyl	amalloy: is it possible to sed sexpbot responses?
16:35	amalloy	tonyl: you mean, ask sexpbot to repeat the last thing he said, but sedded? not currently
16:35	tonyl	sexpbot technomancy ?
16:35	tonyl	sexpbot: technomancy ?
16:36	amalloy	$whatis technomancy
16:36	sexpbot	technomancy does not exist in my database.
16:36	tonyl	or change the reply to why?
16:36	tonyl	why?
16:36	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
16:36	tonyl	those kind of replies
16:37	amalloy	you'd have to write a new plugin for it. and also convince Raynes and me that it's a good idea :P
16:37	tonyl	alright :P
16:37	amalloy	clojurebot already jumps on a lot of messages; it's hard enough keeping the two of them from stepping on each other's toes
16:37	tonyl	yeah
16:37	tonyl	i likt the $command syntax though
16:38	amalloy	$whatis sexpbot
16:38	sexpbot	sexpbot does not exist in my database.
16:38	amalloy	$whatis sexpbot the bestest sexpbot ever
16:38	sexpbot	sexpbot does not exist in my database.
16:38	tonyl	$whatis clojure
16:38	sexpbot	clojure does not exist in my database.
16:38	amalloy	oh right
16:38	amalloy	$learn sexpbot the bestest sexpbot ever
16:38	sexpbot	My memory is more powerful than M-x butterfly. I wont forget it.
16:38	amalloy	$whatis sexpbot
16:38	sexpbot	sexpbot = the bestest sexpbot ever
16:38	tonyl	nice
16:54	belun	$learn belun not what, but who ? strong male
16:54	sexpbot	My memory is more powerful than M-x butterfly. I wont forget it.
16:54	belun	$whatis belun
16:54	sexpbot	belun = not what, but who ? strong male
16:57	lrenn	do sexbotp and clojurebot work just the same if you /msg them? :)
16:58	tonyl	$tryhaskell reverse "hello"
16:58	sexpbot	=> "olleh"
16:59	amalloy	lrenn: yess
17:00	amalloy	oh, i get it. you were subtly telling them to stop spamming :P
17:00	amalloy	i missed the :) - a lot of people actually don't know and aren't willing to try it
17:01	tonyl	:P
17:02	tonyl	:P you are right
17:10	bendlas	Hey, folks
17:10	tonyl	hello
17:11	bendlas	Is there a resource for conj talks somewhere?
17:12	lancepantz	bendlas: dont think so yet
17:13	bendlas	Specifically I'd be interested in rhickeys reasoning about making ^:static default
17:14	dnolen	bendlas: there quite a bit of chatter about that in the irc logs while you wait for the video
17:15	bendlas	I'll check that out, thx
17:15	hiredman	^:static is not default
17:15	hiredman	I really wish people would stop saying that
17:16	hiredman	I specifcly asked rich to clarify that at the conj
17:16	hiredman	non-dynamic is not the same thing as :static
17:16	dnolen	bendlas: hiredman is correct, the changes were really about binding, the benefits of static fell out of the changes.
17:17	bendlas	hiredman, in which way will those differ?
17:17	bendlas	_isn't_ static all about binding time?
17:18	hiredman	no
17:18	bendlas	Where, of course static enables compile time inlining, ...
17:19	hiredman	:static causes "hard references" to the class of a function to be inserted at compile time
17:19	hiredman	no
17:19	hiredman	:static is not compile time inlining
17:19	bendlas	But enables it
17:19	hiredman	no
17:20	dnolen	bendlas: any perf benefits from ^:static were from hotspot optimizing your code at run time, ^:static also supported primitive arg/return
17:21	bendlas	Ok
17:22	dnolen	now since dynamic binding is no longer the default, and the semantics of unbounds has changed, you get the benefits of static w/o doing anything at all, you can redef (:static didn't allow this), and you get primitive arg/return. primitive fns can now interop w/ protocol fns as well.
17:24	bendlas	Was just gonna ask that, thx
17:25	dnolen	bendlas: the biggest difference in the new world is that unbound vars no longer throw errors during compilation.
17:25	bendlas	So you'll need :dynamic for (binding ...) ?
17:25	dnolen	bendlas: yes
17:26	tonyl	is this in 1.3.0 alpha2 ?
17:27	dnolen	tonyl: yes
17:27	bendlas	dnolen, sounds reasonable
17:28	bendlas	Does that mean you can defn in arbitrary order like in a java class body?
17:29	jarpiain	the compiler must resolve the vars on the first pass so you still have to (declare ...)
17:32	tonyl	ping?
17:32	clojurebot	PONG!
17:33	tonyl	$ping
17:33	sexpbot	tonyl: Ping completed in 0 seconds.
17:33	bendlas	Ok guys, thanks for the info. Blog material on the issue still seems a bit sparse
17:35	amalloy	tonyl: any reason you need to ping both of them?
17:35	amalloy	and not, say, /msg one or both of them?
17:36	jarpiain	(declare x) (def y x) throws unbound var error in 1.2
17:36	jarpiain	bendlas: ^^
17:37	tonyl	my bad, out of habit
17:38	dnolen	bendlas: it is alpha stuff, and most people are still trying to understand 1.2.0 :)
17:44	neotyk`	how do you jump to end of expression with paredit?
17:45	scottj	C-M-n
17:49	scottj	and C-M-e depending on definition of expression
18:05	amalloy	anyone happen to know the maximum length of an irc message?
18:07	mabes	(set! warn-on-reflection true) issues warnings on compilation.. is there a way to have the warnings issued whenever Reflector.getMethods is used?
18:07	mabes	I've type hinted all the code that seems like a bottleneck but Reflector.getMethods is still taking ~20% of the process
18:09	neotyk`	scottj: thanks!
18:24	powr-toc	what's the purpose of Channels? I mean what do they offer over lazy-seqs?
18:25	powr-toc	Is it just that they're queues?
18:28	amalloy	powr-toc: channels in what context? like java.nio.Channels?
18:33	powr-toc	amalloy: as in aleph/lamina... I'm guessing they might be nio channels underneath https://github.com/ztellman/lamina
18:33	powr-toc	but I think they're using a clojure.lang.BlockingQueue
18:34	amalloy	powr-toc: not that i know anything about lamina, but those are definitely not nio Channels
18:34	powr-toc	no they're not nio channels
18:34	powr-toc	they're purely for in process communication
18:36	amalloy	powr-toc: did you read the wiki entry as the readme suggests?
18:36	powr-toc	yes...
18:37	powr-toc	I mean I see how they're different from seqs... in that seqs are pulled and they're pushed
18:37	slyrus	is there a new (clojure-1.3-ish) replacement for c.c.except?
18:38	slyrus	and it looks like all of the various clojure-contrib-1.3-ish changes mean that folks code/build-hackery that works on 1.3 isn't likely to work will under 1.2 anymore, right?
18:38	powr-toc	I'm just not sure what to use them for
18:39	amalloy	powr-toc: and they allow arbitrary amounts of forking - four channels which are all dumping into one master channel, which is again being sucked into two duplicate channels with different callbacks
18:40	powr-toc	amalloy: I saw that... I guess the thing I'm not clear on, is how multiple consumers can ever use these without interfering with each other
18:41	powr-toc	I guess I need to play with them...
18:41	amalloy	powr-toc: instead of having them all plugged into the same channel, you can fork the channel
18:41	amalloy	then they each get a private copy
18:43	powr-toc	amalloy: but fork consumes and removes all the messages from the channel
18:43	powr-toc	or am I reading that bit wrong
18:43	amalloy	you are
18:44	amalloy	see also near the top "If two callbacks are registered on an empty channel, they both receive the next message."
18:45	powr-toc	amalloy: ahhh ok... I missed that bit... now it makes a bit more sense
18:47	slyrus	anyone have a good example of a clojure-1.3-ready lein project.clj?
18:50	slyrus	ah, this is the syntax I was looking for: [org.clojure.contrib/def "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT"]
18:54	slyrus	:( is swank-clojure broken with the current slime?
18:59	amalloy	slyrus: i've heard technomancy say that slime breaks all by itself pretty often; there's some version or other he recommends you stick with, rather than living on the edge
19:00	rata_	hi all
19:01	slyrus	amalloy: and with that attitude it will never get fixed :)
19:01	amalloy	slyrus: feel free to join the emacs slime community :P
19:03	insomniaSalt	Versions differ: 2010-11-03 (slime) vs. 20100404 (swank). Continue? (y or n) y
19:03	Derander	I'm using nil (slime)
19:03	Derander	don't know how I ended up w/ that
19:03	slyrus	insomniaSalt: yeah, but it's been doing that for a long time. that's not the breakage I'm referring to.
19:04	lancepantz	slyrus: yes, swank clojure is broken with slime HEAD
19:04	insomniaSalt	i remember trying to fix that :-)
19:04	slyrus	:( ok, thanks lancepantz
19:08	slyrus	hmm... I wish slime had two histories. one for my CL REPLs and one for my clojure REPLs.
19:09	slyrus	M-p isn't very useful when it's giving me back CL forms in a repl connected to a swank-clojure instance
19:10	amalloy	slyrus: two emacs frames/screens?
19:10	slyrus	amalloy: sure, but when I start a new session it doesn't keep track of the two old ones
19:11	slyrus	and I'm not supposed to use earmuffs for non-dynamic vars anymore?
19:15	slyrus	perhaps it was premature to try to go to 1.3
19:16	technomancy	earmuffs have always been only for dynamic vars
19:22	slyrus	technomancy: there's a difference (in my mind anyway) between a constant var that is globally accessible and a globally accessible var whose value can be changed by bind
19:28	amalloy	pppaul: ping
19:28	pppaul	$8ball pong?
19:28	sexpbot	pppaul: Most likely.
19:28	slyrus	I guess I'm just used to CL's special variables
19:29	pppaul	no specials in clojure?
19:29	amalloy	pppaul: just wondering whether you're finding the try/catch macro useful or inadequate
19:29	slyrus	pppaul: you have to declare your vars as dynamic now if you want (bind [...] ...) to work
19:29	pppaul	oh, i didn't get it to work... i tried macro-expanding and it would just give me the evaluated forms...
19:30	pppaul	i went to sleep after you gave it to me, and i haven't done anything with clojure since then ^_^
19:30	amalloy	pppaul: (macroexpand '(whatever)), not (macroexpand (whatever))
19:30	pppaul	ooooooooooooh
19:30	pppaul	silly me
19:31	amalloy	##(macroexpand '(when (pred x) x))
19:31	sexpbot	⟹ (if (pred x) (do x))
19:31	pppaul	i think i broke clojure... can't find the defmacro symbol
19:34	pppaul	cool
19:34	pppaul	looks like it works ^_^
19:37	amalloy	let me know whether you find it convenient or annoying when you've played with it a bit
19:38	pppaul	(defn col-width [n table] (reduce max (map #(? (count (nth % n))
19:38	pppaul	:oops 0)
19:38	pppaul	table)))
19:38	pppaul	seems good for simple try-catches ^_^
19:39	pppaul	maybe i should be using the maybe monaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
19:39	amalloy	that doesn't really seem applicable to finding a max
19:40	pppaul	i don't really know what to apply any monad to right now... the wikipedia entry isn't helping much since it's all in haskell
19:43	rata_	pppaul: http://intensivesystems.net/tutorials/monads_101.html
19:43	pppaul	reading that too
19:43	rata_	ok
19:43	pppaul	i thought it would be better for me to start with wikipedia, though
19:45	rata_	i thought the same, but that article resulted to be much more useful for me
19:47	pppaul	^_^
19:47	pppaul	(doc map)
19:47	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
19:48	pppaul	woot, seems to work the way i want it to
19:48	pppaul	map is so sexy
19:51	slyrus	hrm... what am I supposed to make of this: NoSuchMethodError clojure.core$concat.invokeStatic(Ljava/lang/Object;Ljava/lang/Object;)Ljava/lang/Object; clojure.contrib.def/defalias (def.clj:66)
19:53	amalloy	slyrus: that's java's equivalent of a linkage error
19:53	amalloy	the code was compiled against one version of clojure, and is running against another
19:54	slyrus	ah, but which code?
19:54	amalloy	clojure.contrib doesn't match clojure.core
19:54	slyrus	oh, I see... ok.
19:54	slyrus	:(
19:54	amalloy	make sure your deps are right in project.clj
19:54	amalloy	and lein deps. maybe that will help
19:56	slyrus	I think I built clojure-contrib improperly
20:01	amalloy	slyrus: why build it at all? just get the binary
20:01	slyrus	that just seems _wrong_
20:04	Derander	I have an atom @keep-running.
20:04	Derander	I am trying to swap its value out from true to false
20:04	Derander	(swap! @keep-running false) says "java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Atom"
20:04	amalloy	Derander: two errors there
20:04	amalloy	&(swap! (atom true) (constantly false))
20:04	sexpbot	⟹ false
20:04	amalloy	&(swap! @(atom true) (constantly false))
20:04	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Atom
20:04	amalloy	&(swap! @(atom true) false)
20:04	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Atom
20:05	amalloy	anyway, the first is what you want
20:05	technomancy	three if you count using swap! instead of reset!
20:05	Derander	ah, thank you
20:05	amalloy	technomancy: yeah, i suppose so
20:05	Derander	technomancy: checking documentation
20:05	Derander	amalloy: thanks for your examples :P
20:06	Derander	okay, that is indeed what I want
20:06	technomancy	Derander: swap+constantly will work, but reset! is what you really mean.
20:06	Derander	yeah
20:06	Derander	I misunderstood how swap worked
20:06	Derander	it's all good now
20:23	pppaul	how do i do newlines with pr-str?
20:39	tonyl	prn-str
20:42	pppaul	doesn't seem to be working
20:43	pppaul	&(prn-str ".....\n.....")
20:43	sexpbot	⟹ "\".....\\n.....\"\n"
20:43	pppaul	&(pr-str ".....\n.....")
20:43	sexpbot	⟹ "\".....\\n.....\""
20:43	pppaul	&(prn-str ".....\\n.....")
20:43	sexpbot	⟹ "\".....\\\\n.....\"\n"
20:45	pppaul	&(print ".....\\n.....")
20:45	sexpbot	⟹ .....\n.....nil
20:46	pppaul	&(print ".....\n.....")
20:46	sexpbot	⟹ ..... .....nil
20:46	pppaul	print is more like what i want than prn-str.... but still not doing newlines
20:47	tonyl	prn-str appends a newline char at the end. do you want it somewhere else?
20:48	pppaul	i have newlines in my strings
20:48	pppaul	i think sexpbot doesn't do newlines
20:49	tonyl	so u want to get rid of them or actually display them in the repl like a new line?
20:49	pppaul	yeah, (print is working
20:49	tonyl	ok
20:50	alexyk	evening
20:51	alexyk	I have a gigantic lazy seq, like there's no tomorrow
20:51	alexyk	I want to extract pieces from each element and dump into a text file, line per elem
20:51	pppaul	$8ball is there a tomorrow?
20:51	sexpbot	pppaul: Concentrate and ask again.
20:51	alexyk	is write-lines meaningful for it?
20:51	alexyk	or it will force lines?
20:52	alexyk	lazy seq is produced from mongodb as (fetch :collection)
20:52	tonyl	when u r using i/o i think there is no way than to force the seq
20:52	pppaul	(apply write-lines seq) ???
20:52	tonyl	that would probably cause an SOE
20:53	tonyl	but who knows
20:53	alexyk	Son of Eve?
20:53	pppaul	lol
20:53	tonyl	lol stackoverflow error
20:53	tonyl	you can partition the seq and then map through it
20:54	alexyk	yeah... what do we do when we can't us ewrite-lines, like some nasty file handle and a writer?
20:54	alexyk	tbatchelli: I always play Bocelli when you join
20:55	tbatchelli	:D
20:56	tbatchelli	alexyk: not a bad choice
20:56	alexyk	batchelli sounds like a batch version, as opposed to an interactive one
20:57	tbatchelli	alexyk: I am glad you didn't parse it as bat-chelli... as in MS-DOS
20:58	alexyk	tbatchelli: any luck with Twitter data?
20:58	tbatchelli	alexyk, not yet, got distracted with other cool stuff :) re: #pallet
20:59	alexyk	tbatchelli: bat-chelli are like multiple MS-DOS chello synthesizers, or miniature chelloes for bats :)
20:59	livingston	i'm driving myself crazy trying to get mvn clojure:swank to run the JVM with more memory (e.g. the equivalent of setting -Xmx4G) ... the variables are documented on the clojure-maven-plugin site, but I can't figure out how to set them through maven. Do any of you do that?
21:00	alexyk	pallet looks cool indeed, I'd like to get a cluster to test it
21:01	alexyk	tbatchelli: I meant celli of course
21:01	alexyk	form cello
21:01	alexyk	livingston: isn't a whole point of maven to drive one crazy?
21:02	livingston	up until this point it has saved me a lot of trouble
21:02	tbatchelli	alexyk: I like miniature chelloes for bats... make for a nice image in my brain :)
21:03	tbatchelli	livingston; part of the license you're accepting by running maven is that you sell your soul to the devil... and the devil eventually comes back to claim it. It's still the best alternative out there though.
21:03	alexyk	tbatchelli: imagine a whole cave with all the bats playing celloes! now that's a great Xmas card
21:04	alexyk	livingston: "up to this point" means it's the point of no return :)
21:04	livingston	i'm also assuming that (.maxMemory (Runtime/getRuntime)) will show me the value of the -Xmx argument
21:06	alexyk	livingston: seems to report correctly
21:08	livingston	alexyk: yeah I keep seeing 129957888 instead of the 4G I ask for
21:09	alexyk	livingston: I switched to lein and cake... but you can ask on clojure-maven list
21:13	livingston	alexyk: arghhh I just noticed pom was requesting clojure-maven plugin v1.3.2 the feature I wanted was added at 1.3.4 and 1.3.5 is current doh! (still have a problem, but it's a start)
21:13	alexyk	aha
21:18	alexyk	chouser: there's not a single write-lines in TJoC?!
21:19	chouser	eh? write-lines?
21:20	alexyk	chouser: yeah, from duck streams. Not a single usage!
21:20	livingston	alexyk: yeah lein isn't really an option for me, we have too much java in house and it's the primary language, so I need something that plays more nice with java
21:20	alexyk	I wanted to find IO wisdom!
21:21	alexyk	livingston: understood, I did the same in a joint Scala/Clojure project
21:22	alexyk	chouser: I was spoiled by write-lines and can't find a simple way to just open a damn writer and write line by line. What is the clojure way to do that?
21:22	lancepantz	livingston: does maven not honor $JAVA_OPTS ?
21:22	alexyk	besides calling a javaesque writer directly
21:22	tonyl	what about with-open
21:22	livingston	lancepantz: I really don't know
21:22	lancepantz	i would expect it to
21:23	alexyk	tonyl: and then chain nasty buffered writers on top of writers?
21:23	livingston	lancepantz: the thing is this is weird because it's a java called by the clojure-maven plug-in that starts the swank server
21:23	chouser	alexyk: I generally use Java methods directly
21:24	alexyk	chouser: :(
21:24	livingston	I don't necessarily want to globally set my java to 4G either
21:24	chouser	alexyk: maybe clojure.java.io/writer
21:24	chouser	...and then java methods. shrug
21:24	livingston	this worked: mvn -Dclojure.vmargs=-Xmx4G clojure:swank but this does not: mvn -Dclojure.vmargs="-d64 -Xmx4G" clojure:swank so I'm not sure how to set 2 options yet
21:24	alexyk	yeah
21:28	alexyk	lancepantz: I read the above as, "does maven has no honor anymore?!"
21:29	lancepantz	yes!
21:30	lancepantz	or no! depending on how you parse the negative
21:31	alexyk	lancepantz: yeah. or no. :)
21:33	hugod	livingston: https://github.com/hugoduncan/pallet/blob/master/pom.xml sets clojureOptions for clojure-maven-plugin
21:34	livingston	hugod: thank you so much - I was using the wrong setting I guess, I was using clojure.vmargs
21:35	livingston	it's unclear to me what the different settings are for
21:38	livingston	hugod: that seemed to work although it was nice having the command line option
21:41	hugod	livingston: https://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin seems to suggest that there isn't one in "Configuring your clojure session"
21:44	livingston	yeah, but what's the difference between "jvm args" and "additional jvm args" ?
21:50	hugod	livingston: vmargs doesn't seem to appear anywhere in the clojure-maven-plugin source
21:51	livingston	hugod: odd. it does respond when I gave it the single parameter to raise the heap size though... it's gotta be in there somewhere?
22:12	ustamills	hey all
22:12	ustamills	Are there really 236 users in this room? Or did my chat client miscount?
22:13	KirinDave	Nope.
22:13	amalloy	ustamills: most of them are idling, usually, like most irc channels :P
22:13	ustamills	We had maybe 9 Wednesday.
22:14	amalloy	in #clojure?
22:14	ustamills	Yeah
22:14	amalloy	no way
22:14	ustamills	Unless there's another clojure chat room, yeah way.
22:14	amalloy	there are more than 9 people who never log out
22:14	hiredman	<--
22:14	KirinDave	Netsplit.
22:14	KirinDave	Perhaps?
22:14	amalloy	could be
22:15	ustamills	What's netsplit?
22:15	amalloy	large-scale connection problems
22:15	ustamills	i c
22:16	ustamills	This is good, then. Wed night was my first night on. This is a pleasant surprise.
22:16	Derander	I never log out
22:17	amalloy	yeah. on occasion there can be no talking for an hour or two, but never are there so few people around
22:18	ustamills	Question then. I don't get recur vs basic recursion just yet. Why do we need the recur function (or special form, or whatever it is) rather than just use straight recursion?
22:18	amalloy	ustamills: you run out of stack space without recur
22:19	ustamills	I haven't in other Lisps. What happens in clojure?
22:19	amalloy	&(let [f (fn x [] (x))] (f))
22:19	sexpbot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
22:19	ustamills	It's a java thing?
22:19	amalloy	&(let [f (fn x [] (recur))] (f))
22:19	sexpbot	Execution Timed Out!
22:19	amalloy	no, any language will have it
22:19	amalloy	you can easily overflow the stack; i did when i was learning CL
22:20	livingston	ustamills: the jvm does not support the standard things compilers do to implement tail recursion
22:20	ustamills	I guess, just practically, I didn't see it in z-lisp. Maybe it was possible.
22:20	ustamills	livingston: Thanks, I was wondering about the java part (not a java expert at all)
22:20	dnolen	ustamills: recur and recursion from the tail position are equivalent. but recur also works with anonymous fns and loop.
22:21	livingston	real lisp compilers are smart and optimize tail recursion for you BUT they aren't required to like they are in say Scheme, in common-lisp it's just a bonus if you get it
22:22	johndeo	The jvm is likely to support tail call optimization at some point, right?
22:22	johndeo	That's what rich hickey says in his talks.
22:22	amalloy	and you can write code that's hard, or impossible for any compiler to optimize right
22:22	dnolen	johndeo: less likely in the near future with Oracle driving.
22:22	livingston	ustamills: since there are some ways to support TCO (tail call optimization) without the JVMs help, Rich decided to implement them, but to be sure you don't think you are getting it when you aren't he decided to make you request it, and if it can't give it to you it will error
22:22	johndeo	That Oracle stuff is CRAZY
22:23	johndeo	but typical
22:23	Derander	of course oracle would start fucking with java right as I start to use it/clojure :P
22:23	Derander	literally within 1 week
22:23	livingston	keeping people from shooting themselves in the foot is ok sometimes, not sure how happy I am with this particular design decision though
22:23	hiredman	~oracle
22:23	clojurebot	The sky is falling!
22:24	ustamills	Maybe somebody could look at this. I'm trying to write my first recur function, an exponent function. Easy in recursion, but I don't get the recur version....
22:24	johndeo	I can't see any way they can pull the rug out on 50 bazillion companies using open source Java
22:24	hiredman	they aren't
22:24	hiredman	they never said they would
22:24	hiredman	they have infact said they won't
22:24	ustamills	(defn pwr [ x y ]
22:24	ustamills	(loop [myx x
22:24	ustamills	myy y]
22:24	ustamills	(if (>= y 1)
22:24	ustamills	(recur (* myx myx) (dec myy))
22:24	ustamills	myx)))
22:24	hiredman	johndeo: please don't spread that fud here
22:24	ustamills	I know the (* myx myx) bit isn't what I mean. Not sure how to say what I mean though.
22:25	johndeo	Okay, I'll go get more informed.
22:25	livingston	johndeo: I don't know, it would be nice, if they implement it. the JVM is far ahead of Java so... you never know.
22:26	amalloy	ustamills: you're close
22:27	ustamills	I tried to execute (using Slime) and it just went away and never showed anything
22:27	amalloy	ustamills: because you're testing y, not myy
22:27	livingston	ustamills: i'm not sure that's computing x^y but something more like factorial? or weirder
22:27	ustamills	,DOH
22:27	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: DOH in this context
22:28	amalloy	&'DOH!
22:28	sexpbot	⟹ DOH!
22:28	amalloy	but you need to actually recur on three parameters. (1) the base, (2) the exponent left to work on, and (3) what the product so far is
22:29	ustamills	#3 is the part I'm missing.....
22:29	amalloy	well er
22:29	livingston	you can also recur to the main call too, remove the loop and recur directly to pwr itself
22:29	amalloy	(1) isn't necessary, since base is a constant
22:30	amalloy	&(loop [base 2, pow 5, acc 1] (if (zero? pow) acc, (recur base (dec pow) (* acc base))))
22:30	sexpbot	⟹ 32
22:31	livingston	tbatchelli: I just climbed into the depths of maven and reclaimed my soul, at least for today. we'll see when it gets me again (trying to simultaneously develop code in the repl from two projects will probably be another 10 round knock-out challenge)
22:31	amalloy	ustamills: is how i would write it. look over it, try to make sense of it, and ask whatever questions you have left
22:31	ustamills	Woot! Thanks!
22:31	ustamills	(defn pwr [ x y ]
22:31	ustamills	(loop [res x
22:31	ustamills	myy y]
22:31	ustamills	(if (> myy 1)
22:31	ustamills	(recur (* res x) (dec myy))
22:31	ustamills	res)))
22:32	amalloy	ustamills: please don't make huge pastes here
22:32	amalloy	use a paste site like https://gist.github.com/
22:32	ustamills	Will do. Thanks.
22:33	amalloy	yep, that looks like a perfect exponent function
22:33	tbatchelli	livingston: are you sure you are the same person than a couple of hours ago? I think you need to be quarantined!
22:34	amalloy	ustamills: to convert a singly-recursive function to a tail-recursive function, usually you need to add one more variable, which "accumulates" the value you're planning to return
22:34	livingston	tbatchelli: i do have this cough, ..
22:35	ustamills	Because we aren't really doing recursion, we're doing, basically, goto's.
22:35	amalloy	right
22:36	amalloy	(and not just basically gotos. actually gotos)
22:36	ustamills	If Java had tail call optimization, would Clojure still use recur?
22:37	amalloy	that's a philosophical question, i suspect
22:37	dnolen	,((fn [base exp] (reduce * 1 (take exp (repeat base)))) 2 0)
22:37	clojurebot	1
22:37	dnolen	,((fn [base exp] (reduce * 1 (take exp (repeat base)))) 2 16)
22:37	clojurebot	65536
22:38	dnolen	ustamills: strong support for lazy sequences are another useful tool to work around the lack of TCO.
22:38	livingston	ustamills: it would become redundant, unless there were still some cases where it couldn't be had and people still wanted you to beg for it. -- I would hope that it would go away at that point though, certainly it shouldn't not give it, just because you didn't ask.
22:38	ustamills	dnolen: Thanks for the post, I just realized my fn doesn't handle the 0 exponent
22:38	_fogus_	ustamills: I think yes
22:38	livingston	dnolen: lazy seqs are useful, but they are not directly related to TCO
22:39	dnolen	ustamills: the current real painpoint for lack of TCO is mutally recursive functions, trampolines work but are kinda slow
22:39	amalloy	dnolen: (= (repeat exp base) (take exp (repeat base)))
22:39	ustamills	Not grokking the lazy sequences just yet ......
22:39	dnolen	livingston: they are in the sense that rhickey forefronted them in the lang specifically because lack of TCO.
22:40	KirinDave	Huh
22:40	KirinDave	It's disappointing to see someone as smart as nk say shit like: http://twitter.com/nk/status/3234929919918080
22:40	amalloy	ustamills: they're incredibly powerful. if you ever find yourself actually writing recursion or loop/recur, often you should reevaluate and use the builtin lazy functions
22:41	dnolen	KirinDave: I saw that, I was thinking of snarky responses, but not worth it.
22:41	_fogus_	KirinDave: That is a lot of nothingness. I don't even understand his point.
22:41	Derander	I'm lost too :P
22:41	livingston	dnolen: I don't see what one has to do with the other? one is a way to use things like map even though you know you aren't going to go all the way through the list; the other is a way to write simpler code without blowing the stack -- they are orthoganal
22:41	amalloy	&(nth (iterate #(* 2 %) 1) 6)
22:41	sexpbot	⟹ 64
22:42	Derander	"java runs on processors. clearly procedural programming is better."
22:42	hiredman	most of the state in the clojure compiler is bound vars (threadlocal)
22:42	amalloy	livingston: no
22:42	dnolen	livingston: not true, lazy sequences are a general way to represent any kind of computation without blowing the stack.
22:42	KirinDave	_fogus_: I think he' arguing that "if immutability is so great, why don't you marry it?
22:42	amalloy	livingston: lazy seqs let you write simpler code without blowing the stack too
22:43	hiredman	offhand I can't think of any state in the compiler that isn't in vars
22:43	_fogus_	KirinDave: If purity is so great, then why even turn on the machine?
22:44	hiredman	103103
22:44	hiredman	~#103
22:44	clojurebot	103. Purely applicative languages are poorly applicable.
22:44	livingston	yes, lazy seq happen to work like the recur implementation, but that doesn't mean they are isomorphic -- regardless it's not important to me at this time of night
22:45	dnolen	livingston: you can think what you like, but rhickey has said as much. I defer to him ;)
22:45	livingston	er, maybe in this case they can substitute for each other, but the use cases are or should be different
22:46	KirinDave	What's even weirding is that clojure is all about controlling mutability
22:46	KirinDave	Not immutability.
22:47	KirinDave	That's prolog, down the hall.
22:47	livingston	I tend to write a lot of recursive code as if I was in Scheme, it's not necessarily good style, but the Franz Allegro compiler was so good I got kind of spoiled. having to flag it all the time is a real bummer now.
22:47	ustamills	begs the question.... Why use recur over lazy seqs, or the reverse?
22:48	livingston	ustamills: recur is for when you intend to go the whole way, and just want to save the stack frames, lazy seq is for being speculative that you might not go all the way down the rabbit hole and would like to save the work if you can
22:49	livingston	.. in general - from a readability and intent point of view.
22:50	dnolen	ustamills: recur is 'strict' simpler semantics, lazy is just that lazy, there's all kinds of implication because of that. many a Clojurian has been burned by a lazy sequence.
22:51	livingston	only if you are counting on side effects ;) (which is frequently unavoidable once you brush too close against java)
22:51	amalloy	livingston: still wrong
22:51	livingston	actually it hits me a lot when I want to wrap time around something
22:52	amalloy	you can build lazy sequences that blow the stack if you try
22:53	dnolen	livingston: there's lots of scenarios where laziness will bite you even when you're writing purely functional code. i.e. debugging lazy code is generally a big PITA.
22:53	livingston	anyone can blow anything up if they do it wrong, but I don't get it, here you all just spend I don't even know how long trying to tell me lazy = recur ...
22:56	ustamills	Getting recur very slowly ... (and maybe the bot too)
22:56	ustamills	.((fn pwr [x y] (loop [r 1 i y] (if (>= i 1) (recur (* r x) (dec i)) r))) 2 3)
22:56	amalloy	ustamills: comma or &, not period
22:56	ustamills	:) tx
22:57	amalloy	(& is the bot Raynes and i work on, , is hiredman's bot)
22:57	ustamills	,((fn pwr [x y] (loop [r 1 i y] (if (>= i 1) (recur (* r x) (dec i)) r))) 2 3)
22:57	clojurebot	8
22:57	ustamills	((fn pwr [x y] (loop [r 1 i y] (if (>= i 1) (recur (* r x) (dec i)) r))) 2 0)
22:57	ustamills	ooops
22:57	ustamills	, ((fn pwr [x y] (loop [r 1 i y] (if (>= i 1) (recur (* r x) (dec i)) r))) 2 0)
22:57	clojurebot	1
22:58	ustamills	tx everybody. Now I go read seqs.
23:06	harishtella	does anyone know of a good example/tutorial on understanding clojure java interop ( stuff like proxy and binding)
23:08	amalloy	harishtella: binding isn't really to do with java interop
23:09	amalloy	but labrepl has a good thing on proxy/swing interop
23:09	amalloy	https://github.com/relevance/labrepl
23:10	harishtella	amolloy: got that, will look into it
23:10	harishtella	thanks
23:14	harishtella	I wish http://clojuredocs.org/ was more prominently linked on clojure.org
23:19	livingston	later. thanks for the conversation / help everyone.