#clojure – 2010-11-10

2010-11-10

00:14	Derander	when I'm working in slime and hit c-d d I get a documentation buffer in the other window in my frame
00:15	Derander	is there a simple way to close that?
00:15	amalloy	Derander: C-x 4 0
00:15	amalloy	or do you want the old window back?
00:16	amalloy	if so, C-x 4 C-o <RET> should work
00:35	Derander	amalloy: thank you
00:35	Derander	I ended up just writing a macro to flip over and hit "q'
00:35	Derander	"q"*
00:35	amalloy	lol
01:17	uberjar	just for the record I predicted this Oracle JVM monetization strategy in this channel 3 months ago and at least 5 of you laughted at me, taunted me, and told me it could never happen :)
01:19	uberjar	thats all, just had to rub it in :P l8rz
01:20	Raynes	Cool story, broy.
01:23	coldhead	ahahah
01:25	Adamant	he got his victory dance and didn't get to hear the rebuttal
01:25	Adamant	I think this means he wins
01:26	Adamant	one internet.
01:40	coldhead	i'll PM him the rebuttal
02:01	hiredman	ping?
02:01	clojurebot	PONG!
02:03	LauJensen	The boat is rocking: https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/statement_by_the_asf_board1
02:06	defn	anyone have stuart halloway's slides from clojure-conj? day 2?
02:21	ppppaul	boat is going to sink
02:22	rdsr	defn: are these what u are looking for? https://github.com/stuarthalloway/clojure-presentations
02:24	ppppaul	is the lambda shorthand only for non-nested shorthand functions?
02:25	rdsr	oh they don't contain the clojure-java interop slides
02:25	rdsr	if u want I can mail u that one
02:25	amalloy	ppppaul: yes, #() doesn't nest
02:25	amalloy	because how would the compiler know which % is associated with which closure?
02:26	ppppaul	name them?
02:26	ppppaul	%1
02:26	ppppaul	%2
02:26	ppppaul	i dono
02:26	Raynes	Those aren't names.
02:26	amalloy	ppppaul: that syntax already means something
02:26	ppppaul	hehe
02:26	ppppaul	oh
02:26	ppppaul	i want to do something like the below
02:26	ppppaul	(every? #((map #(= % ) (integer? '* '/ '+ '-))) (flatten (read-string string)))
02:27	ppppaul	checking that everything in a list is an int or a math symbol
02:27	ppppaul	wait, that's wrong
02:27	ppppaul	lol
02:27	amalloy	ppppaul: that code kinda makes no sense
02:27	ppppaul	i don't need map, i need any?
02:27	amalloy	you need some
02:28	ppppaul	but i need to use fn [] format
02:28	ppppaul	i guess
02:29	amalloy	&(every? #(some '#{+ - * /} %) '[+ -])
02:29	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
02:29	amalloy	&(every? #(some #{'+ '- '* '/} %) '[+ -])
02:29	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
02:29	amalloy	bah, what
02:29	amalloy	anyway ppppaul it's pretty common to use sets as predicates for things like this
02:30	ppppaul	yeah, i'm looking at the some docs
02:31	ppppaul	makes sense, but is it for performance?
02:31	LauJensen	&(every? #{'+ '- '* '/} ['+ '-])
02:31	sexpbot	⟹ true
02:31	LauJensen	&(every? #{'+ '- '* '/} ['+ '- 'b])
02:31	sexpbot	⟹ false
02:32	LauJensen	amalloy: I think I use sets in a few posts on bestinclass.dk :)
02:33	amalloy	LauJensen: maybe i'll read your blog so i understand how this language feature works :)
02:34	LauJensen	Wee, I finally got my last subscriber, I can retire as a blogger now
02:35	ppppaul	lol
02:35	jartur	Hi.
02:36	amalloy	LauJensen: time to move on to twitter
02:36	LauJensen	Oh, you're not following me on Twitter either?
02:36	LauJensen	You missed the ClojureQL aggregate syntax poll :(
02:36	LauJensen	(technically its not over yet)
02:36	jartur	Does anybody have an idea how to keep a persisten SQL connection?
02:36	LauJensen	http://twitter.com/laujensen
02:36	jartur	I need to poll some db value every second
02:36	LauJensen	jartur: Yea, the trick is to not close it
02:36	LauJensen	:]
02:37	jartur	LauJensen: with standard contrib.sql it's not that simple, aye?
02:37	LauJensen	jartur: No its not. Wait a little while and ClojureQL will be out in 1.0 - I have seriously considered making a connection pool
02:37	jartur	I can of course put an endless loop within (with-connection ...)
02:38	LauJensen	jartur: But I guess if you need something now, you could simple override with-connection in contrib.sql.internal
02:40	LauJensen	I always write 'simple' when I meant 'simply' - I should make an emacs hook to catch that :(
02:40	amalloy	LauJensen: that should be pretty simply
02:41	LauJensen	haha, punk
02:41	jartur	Hmm, I don't really see how overriding with-connection could help. Do you mean make it not to close a connection after its scope ends?
02:42	Chousuke	find the var that clojure.sql binds the connection to and then just use that manually?
02:42	LauJensen	Yep. Or just to check if it gets a map or a java.sql.Connection. If its the latter dont close. Something like that
02:42	LauJensen	It binds db IIRC
02:43	jartur	I really do not like how contrib.sql works now, btw =)
02:43	hiredman	if only there was something that looked like a loop but really yielded a succession of async tasks with depend on the result of the previous task...
02:44	LauJensen	jartur: Like I said, CQL is just around the corner now
02:44	jartur	Or maybe just use pure java interop for my pretty simple task for now
02:44	LauJensen	Check out the github page to see how much is already working
02:44	jartur	I only need to write to one db and immediately check value from its slave. And do this every second.
02:45	jartur	Actually, multiple slaves. And serve delays as a graph on web
02:48	ppppaul	gah, i feel like i just want to convert my list to a string and then use regex on it
02:50	ppppaul	&(str '(+ 2 3 4))
02:50	sexpbot	⟹ "(+ 2 3 4)"
02:50	ppppaul	that's good enough for me
02:52	ppppaul	(re-match #"^$[\d+-*/]+$" (str (flatten (read-string string)))
02:52	ppppaul	:)
02:55	LauJensen	ppppaul: You had a problem and you thought you would solve it with regexes :)
02:56	ppppaul	i have a problem with unmatched delimiters now :(
02:56	LauJensen	...and now you have two problems
02:56	ppppaul	lol
02:56	ppppaul	with regex my code size shrunk a lot
02:57	ppppaul	without regex i need to make a big function for every
03:03	LauJensen	ppppaul: Didnt you see my set example ebove? about the same size as your regex
03:04	Raynes	amalloy: sexpy is running the latest clojail. What I just pushed mere moments ago.
03:05	Raynes	I've got a little bathroom reading to do.
03:05	amalloy	Raynes: excellent
03:05	amalloy	to both, i guess? :P
03:05	ppppaul	i needed more complexity than just (integer?)
03:06	ppppaul	i needed to test things about the number if it was an int, as well
03:06	ppppaul	needed an every? and some? nested
03:06	ppppaul	with (str and regex i just need that one line of code
03:06	LauJensen	&(number? 5.5)
03:06	sexpbot	⟹ true
03:07	ppppaul	i need to make sure the integer? is 0-9
03:07	ppppaul	so, three functions
03:08	ppppaul	replaced by (str and regex
03:11	ppppaul	actually, str isn't playing well with flatten :(
03:13	ppppaul	(str (read-string "(+ 1 1)"))
03:13	ppppaul	"(+ 1 1)"
03:13	ppppaul	rosettacode.24game=> (str (flatten (read-string "(+ 1 1)")))
03:13	ppppaul	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@ee696f27"
03:13	ppppaul	how do i extact all of flatten?
03:13	ppppaul	(doall?
03:16	raek	,(pr-str (flatten (read-string "(+ 1 1)")))
03:16	clojurebot	"(+ 1 1)"
03:16	ppppaul	thanks
03:17	ppppaul	what does 'pr' mean? it doesn't say in the docs
03:17	ppppaul	(doc pr-str)
03:17	clojurebot	"([& xs]); pr to a string, returning it"
03:19	Chousuke	(doc pr)
03:19	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & more]); Prints the object(s) to the output stream that is the current value of out. Prints the object(s), separated by spaces if there is more than one. By default, pr and prn print in a way that objects can be read by the reader"
03:21	Raynes	LauJensen: You mean to tell me that 5 is a number?
03:21	Raynes	No way man. No way. I can't accept it.
03:21	LauJensen	Raynes: Just dropping clues for ppppaul before he starts implementing Perljure
03:21	ppppaul	lol
03:21	Raynes	amalloy: I just checked on crisis1, and raynes.me is pointing at our VPS now. We hath been successful.
03:22	amalloy	cool. and i've finally got mongo doing almost what i want
03:22	amalloy	:P
03:22	ppppaul	oh, is pr for serialization?
03:22	Raynes	amalloy: You're still working on getting mongo to work properly on that plugin?
03:22	Chousuke	Well, ghetto serialisation :P
03:22	amalloy	&((juxt pr print) "hi")
03:22	sexpbot	⟹ "hi"hi[nil nil]
03:22	Raynes	&(doc pr)
03:22	sexpbot	⟹ "([] [x] [x & more]); Prints the object(s) to the output stream that is the current value of out. Prints the object(s), separated by spaces if there is more than one. By default, pr and prn print in a way that objects can be read by the reader"
03:22	Raynes	Oh, you already did that.
03:22	amalloy	Raynes: any watching tv :P
03:22	amalloy	*and
03:23	Chousuke	it works for a bunch of things, but you can't print everything readably
03:25	Raynes	amalloy: Anyways, as soon as my ISP's cache wears out and I can navigate to raynes.me, I'll start moving my web related stuff over to crisis2.
03:25	amalloy	Raynes: i actually just solved the problem i was having earlier. now i'm having trouble getting update! to work, so i'm just gonna use the same destroy!/insert! hack the other plugins use
03:25	Raynes	congomongo has update!?
03:25	Raynes	Well I'll be damned.
03:25	amalloy	sorta
03:25	Raynes	Also, don't call my code a hack. :(
03:26	amalloy	it's "take the entry whose id is x, and replace it with this object", more or less
03:26	Raynes	That's meh.
03:26	amalloy	man, you know destroy/update is a hack :P
03:26	amalloy	but it's good enough for me, at this point
03:26	Raynes	It makes sense, but still meh.
03:27	Raynes	I had somebody ask me how the plugins could see the mongo connection even though the mongo connection is opened at runtime in a totally different unrelated namespace. I didn't have an answer.
03:27	Raynes	I'm still not sure how that works. congomongo in general is a hack.
03:27	Raynes	:<
03:27	amalloy	yeah i guess
03:27	Raynes	Or magic, depending on whether your glass is half full or not.
03:28	LauJensen	They should have called it Mongojure, with emphasis on the 2nd o
03:28	jartur	Hmm, if I start a thread within a (binding ...) form will that thread have a global binding or local one?
03:29	Raynes	"I have before me a contract for a Ring book from the Pragmatic Press. (via @marick)" Oh my heavens, that's awesome.
03:30	Raynes	It's almost as awesome as this here hotpocket I'm scarfing down.
03:30	jartur	Raynes: I read that @mmcgrana I think. Maybe it was retweet
03:30	Raynes	jartur: Maybe. I got it from disclojure.
03:30	LauJensen	Wow, cond-let doesnt support destructuring. Doesnt that make it almost totally useless?
03:31	Raynes	$sed -LauJensen s/almost//
03:31	sexpbot	<LauJensen> Wow, cond-let doesnt support destructuring. Doesnt that make it totally useless?
03:31	Raynes	No destructuring, no cookies.
03:31	amalloy	LauJensen: um, i'm pretty sure it does support destructuring, it's just that cond-let is a totally different type of thing than if-let, so the name is confusing
03:32	LauJensen	&(cond-let [[x y] [1 2]] (> x y) "bigger" (< x y) "smaller")
03:32	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: cond-let in this context
03:32	LauJensen	&(use 'clojure.contrib.cond)
03:32	sexpbot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/cond__init.class or clojure/contrib/cond.clj on classpath:
03:32	LauJensen	All has failed me
03:33	LauJensen	,(use 'clojure.contrib.cond),
03:33	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/cond__init.class or clojure/contrib/cond.clj on classpath:
03:33	amalloy	(cond-let [[a b]]
03:33	amalloy	[1 2] {a b})
03:33	amalloy	==> {1 2}
03:33	Raynes	That confuses me so bad!
03:33	LauJensen	eh?! O_o
03:33	amalloy	LauJensen: i told you. cond-let does something totally different from if-let
03:33	Raynes	amalloy: Ever notice how some (SOME) contrib libs aren't available in the sandbox? ANY sandbox. clojurebot's, clj-sandbox, nor clojail.
03:33	LauJensen	That needs to be looked at imo
03:34	amalloy	LauJensen: it's actually a lot more useful this way
03:34	amalloy	i think it should just be renamed
03:34	amalloy	it takes a form to bind to, then a set of tests. whichever test succeeds, it binds to the form and evals the expr with those bindings
03:35	LauJensen	amalloy: no cookies
03:39	Raynes	amalloy: Can you hit raynes.me:10000 yet? I had a buddy hit it a moment ago, successfully. :>
03:39	jartur	Okay, new thread within binding will have global var value.
03:39	amalloy	Raynes: yes
03:39	Raynes	Everybody but me.
03:40	LauJensen	Raynes: Its hard to imagine Alabama not being one of the first priorities during an DNS change :)
03:41	Raynes	I know, right?
03:41	jartur	Raynes: in Vladivostok, Russia I can hit it.
03:42	Raynes	Meh, what's 7 hours or so.
03:42	amalloy	Raynes: i just called a buddy who lives on the moon
03:42	amalloy	getting great d/l speeds
03:42	LauJensen	Raynes: You need to get some security on that server now that the Russians have access
03:43	jartur	Mwahahaha
03:43	Raynes	:p
03:43	LauJensen	Its crazy - When you open a new VH somewhere, almost immediately, seconds after it gets an IP, the chinese start trying to get root
03:44	LauJensen	But I guess when you have the power to employ a hacker for each IP in the known universe, it would be silly not to exploit that fact
03:44	Raynes	amalloy: Did you ever buy a new domain last night? Or are you going to keep your old VPS and keep your old domain pointed wherever it was before and such?
03:44	amalloy	no, i ended up not doing it. couldn't find any fun ones for sale
03:44	amalloy	might get akm.me or something, but eh
03:44	Raynes	Shame.
03:45	Raynes	You should. Me, you, and fogus_ would all have matching domains.
03:45	jartur	What is idiomatic way in Clojure to do scheduled execution with fixed rate?
03:46	jartur	reify timertask and use Timer.scheduleatfixedRate ?
03:47	Raynes	amalloy: You know, I've implemented a Clojure sandbox in 141 lines of code. Including whitespace.
03:47	Raynes	:D
03:47	Raynes	Clojure is so awesome.
03:47	amalloy	probly about 200 lines without my help,eh? nudge nudge
03:47	Raynes	I want to go back to the conj and do a lightning talk about it.
03:48	Raynes	amalloy: You cut me back 2 lines I think. Don't get snarky with me. s_s
03:48	Raynes	It was at least 4. Maybe 5.
03:49	amalloy	well! now that you've given me that huge bump i won't have to get huffy
03:49	Raynes	Using symbols rather than class objects was borderline retarded, so I give you that.
03:49	amalloy	laugh
03:51	Raynes	I'm going to have to learn how to dump and restore a mysql database.
03:51	jartur	C'mon any pointers at least. =)
03:51	amalloy	Raynes: mysqldump
03:52	Raynes	I only use mysql for wordpress. I should really just transfer it over to wordpress.com, shouldn't I?
03:52	Raynes	It's kind of silly to host my own blog. I gain nothing from it.
03:52	amalloy	i did say
03:52	amalloy	i guess you gain "geek cred"
03:53	Raynes	And then I don't have to run mysql and can save memory. Not that we need memory now.
03:53	Raynes	cemerick uses wordpress.com. He has all sorts of geek cred.
03:53	Raynes	Of course, he has nREPL. But hey, I've got sexpbot and Clojail!
03:54	Raynes	$dict entrenched
03:54	sexpbot	Raynes: preposition: dug in
03:54	ppppaul	$dict dug in
03:54	sexpbot	ppppaul: noun: A teat, pap, or nipple; -- formerly that of a human mother, now that of a cow or other beast.
03:54	Raynes	Duh
03:54	ppppaul	so...
03:54	amalloy	lolwut
03:55	ppppaul	firm nipple?
03:55	amalloy	checks
03:55	amalloy	not telling
03:55	ppppaul	oh boy
03:55	Raynes	It didn't check 'in', by the way. It only checked 'dug'
03:56	amalloy	yeah, obv
03:56	ppppaul	i bet in is some sexual thing too
03:59	jartur	Ahh, TimerTask is class, can't reify
03:59	jartur	Sucks
03:59	amalloy	jartur: proxy?
04:28	esj	morning all
04:33	Raynes	esj: Morning.
04:33	kryft	esj: Huomenta.
04:34	esj	Raynes: I'm coming to visit your part of the world soon - Thanksgiving in Tennessee :)
04:34	Raynes	Never been.
04:34	Raynes	Close enough though.
04:34	esj	My first experience was actually a UT / Alabama game...
04:37	Bahman	Hi all!
04:37	esj	Morning Bahman
04:38	Bahman	Morning esj.
04:39	kryft	Does anyone here happen to use vimpulse?
04:40	kryft	I'm wondering if it's a major/minor mode or if it works by somehow modifying whatever major/minor mode you happen to be in.
05:48	morphling	LauJensen: you there?
05:48	LauJensen	sure
05:48	LauJensen	This is #clojure, where else would I be? :)
05:48	morphling	hehe
05:49	morphling	i'm sfehrenbach on twitter
05:49	morphling	I don't get why (avg x y) would not work, but i don't think it would be a good idea anyway
05:49	morphling	i think it's too close to clojures function calls
05:50	LauJensen	morphling: If we're to implement a consumer of lists, you loose all excess to regular clojure, OR we need to implement factory fns for every single SQL function ever written. Which was pretty much the mistake of the old ClojureQL
05:50	LauJensen	s/excess/access/
05:50	sexpbot	<LauJensen> morphling: If we're to implement a consumer of lists, you loose all access to regular clojure, OR we need to implement factory fns for every single SQL function ever written. Which was pretty much the mistake of the old ClojureQL
05:51	morphling	ah, okay
05:51	morphling	but how would you do (avg (max a b))? :avg#:sum#a#b?
05:52	morphling	s/sum/max
05:52	sexpbot	<morphling> but how would you do (avg (max a b))? :avg#:max#a#b?
05:52	LauJensen	Right now you can do [[:a.b/max :as :m] :m/avg - But this whole discussion is to arrive at a superior format
05:53	LauJensen	(by right now I mean on my local snapshot, on the MASTER you still have the # syntax with no way to hit multiple fields)
05:58	morphling	do you think it'd be enough to just quote sql function calls, like '(avg :field)? you could still call clojure functions with backquote and unquote
06:00	LauJensen	Interesting idea - I'll try to play around with it a little
06:05	fliebel	morning
06:06	kzar	mornin'
06:06	belun	ellow :)
06:39	kzar	I've got a number like 56.00000000000001 and I want to check if it's basically 56 but I think something funny is happening? &\|(- 56.00000000000001 56)\|&
06:39	sexpbot	⟹ 7.105427357601002E-15
06:43	jowag	kzar: http://floating-point-gui.de/
06:43	Chousuke	kmc: what's weird about that?
06:44	Chousuke	or well
06:44	Chousuke	it is weird, but not if you keep in mind they're floats :P
06:45	belun	can you cast to integer ?
06:45	belun	or what u need requires floats ?
06:49	lenw	hi all
06:52	lenw	i am trying to uderstand where i am building up memory - i have a (for [t (range 1 10000)] (let [x (f t)] (process x))) and i OOM exceptions - isnt x gc'ed in the for statement above ?
06:52	kzar	Converting it into a float did the trick, thanks for the ideas everyone
06:54	Chousuke	lenw: for generates a lazy seq. are you sure you're not storing the whole seq in memory at once?
06:55	lenw	Chousuke: what alternative do i have to drive that ?
06:56	lenw	Chousuke: would that code above cause the whole seq to be in mem at once - its not what i want :)
06:56	Chousuke	lenw: it depends on what you do with the seq for returns
06:57	lenw	Chousuke: i am ignoring it ... its just driving the process
06:57	Chousuke	then you're misusing for
06:57	Chousuke	use doseq
06:57	lenw	i thought i might be thatnks
06:57	Chousuke	for is not for side-effects :)
06:57	lenw	:)
06:58	lenw	like writing to a mongodb ...
07:03	tormar	I want to consume a REST api using clojure, but I need to use digest authentication. Are there any client libs which has digest implemented? Not familiar with Java, but guess some interop will work for me. Any pointers?
07:04	tormar	For instance, has anyone done digest auth with clojure.contrib.http.agent?
07:57	roolio	help
07:58	belun	hit F1 :P
08:18	belun	(defn show- me [& {:key s [what ] :or {:wha t "defa ult"}] what)
08:19	belun	how do i talk to the bot ?
08:20	bartj	belun, hit a comma before the expression
08:20	bartj	there is also something called sexpbot here and you need to hit a "&" before your sexp
08:21	bartj	not sure how clojurebot is different from sexpbot
08:21	bartj	for eg: to invoke clojure bot here:
08:21	bartj	, (:a {:a 1 :b 2})
08:21	clojurebot	1
08:21	belun	,(defn show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}} ] what)
08:21	clojurebot	DENIED
08:22	belun	:)
08:22	belun	, (defn show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}} ] what)
08:22	clojurebot	DENIED
08:22	bartj	belun, you cannot define functions here
08:22	belun	can i fn and use directly ?
08:22	LauJensen	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me {:what "hey"}))
08:22	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {:what "hey"}
08:23	LauJensen	bartj: actually you can, but you need letfn
08:23	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me))
08:24	bartj	belun, you need to remove the space before &, I think
08:24	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me "something"))
08:24	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me "something"))
08:24	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: something
08:24	belun	ya :)
08:24	Chousuke	you're using map destructuring
08:24	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me))
08:24	sexpbot	⟹ nil
08:25	belun	i want try out named args
08:25	Chousuke	do (show-me :what "something")
08:25	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me {:what "anything"}))
08:25	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {:what "anything"}
08:25	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me :what "anything"))
08:25	sexpbot	⟹ "anything"
08:26	belun	yay
08:26	belun	yet so complicated
08:26	Chousuke	not complicated. :)
08:26	Chousuke	it's pretty simple if you know how destructuring works
08:26	belun	aint pretty
08:27	Chousuke	I don't know why the :or thing didn't work though.
08:27	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me :what))
08:27	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: :what
08:27	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {:what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me))
08:27	sexpbot	⟹ nil
08:27	belun	(clojure-version)
08:27	belun	&(clojure-version)
08:27	sexpbot	⟹ "1.2.0"
08:28	Chousuke	ah
08:28	Chousuke	your or map was wrong
08:28	belun	how
08:28	Chousuke	it needs to be {symbol defvalue}
08:28	Chousuke	not :key defvalue
08:28	belun	&(letfn [(show-me [& {:keys [what] :or {what "what?"}}] what)] (show-me))
08:28	sexpbot	⟹ "what?"
08:29	belun	yee
08:29	bartj	er, when should letfn be preferred over defn?
08:29	belun	er now :P
08:29	Chousuke	bartj: when you don't want to define a global function :P
08:29	belun	defn puts stuff in ur namespace
08:29	belun	letfn just creates and uses
08:30	bartj	Chousuke, functions can also be defined within defn
08:30	bartj	Chousuke, or am I wrong ?
08:30	belun	&(show-me)
08:30	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: show-me in this context
08:30	Chousuke	bartj: with letfn
08:30	Chousuke	letfn is just sugar got let + fn
08:30	raek	bartj: not with defn (as you would in Scheme)
08:30	Chousuke	right.
08:30	Chousuke	if you do (defn foo ... (defn bar ...)) you're defining two global functions
08:31	Chousuke	... and bar's definition will change whenever foo is called.
08:31	belun	which this sandbox doesnt let you :P
08:31	bartj	no, I mean (defn foo (let [ bar-fn (fn [] ) ] ...))
08:31	Chousuke	bartj: yeah
08:31	raek	the only time I use letfn is when I need a helper function for a lazy seq
08:31	Chousuke	bartj: letfn is some macro sugar for that.
08:32	raek	the fn name is visible inside the fn, which is not the case if you only use (let [f (fn [...] ...
08:32	bartj	Chousuke, hmm, ok!
08:32	Chousuke	(letfn [(foo [] ...)] ...) expands to (let [foo (fn foo [] ...)] ...)
08:33	raek	the second "foo" is what makes foo refer to the function itself inside the function
08:34	bartj	Chousuke, raek cool, thanks! I don't see myself declaring only functions in my lets, though
08:34	Chousuke	letfn also supports mutually recursive definitions I think
08:37	raek	ideal if you tend to implement Hofstadter's M and F functions as lazy seqences a lot... ;-)
08:37	fliebel	Chousuke: How so?
08:37	Chousuke	fliebel: hm?
08:37	Chousuke	how so what?
08:38	raek	,(doc letfn)
08:38	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the function...
08:38	fliebel	Chousuke: If letfn expands to a let, how could they be mutualy recursive?
08:38	raek	"All of the names are available in all of the definitions"
08:38	fliebel	raek: I see…
08:39	raek	hrm, I wonder what the resulting let looks like
08:39	fliebel	the magic seems to be inside letfn*
08:39	raek	ah, a special form?
08:39	fliebel	it's not in core at least
08:39	LauJensen	&(letfn [(od? [x] (if (pos? x) (eve? (dec x)) "odd")) (eve? [x] (if (pos? x) (od? (dec x)) "even"))] (odd? 5))
08:39	sexpbot	⟹ true
08:40	LauJensen	oops
08:40	LauJensen	&(letfn [(od? [x] (if (pos? x) (eve? (dec x)) "even")) (eve? [x] (if (pos? x) (od? (dec x)) "odd"))] (od? 5))
08:40	sexpbot	⟹ "odd"
08:40	LauJensen	:)
08:40	Chousuke	you can shadow globals, you know
08:41	LauJensen	yea I know
08:42	fliebel	Huh, where is letfn* comming from? It's not in core and no in special forms.
08:44	LauJensen	Compiler.java line 42
08:44	fogus_	fliebel: Usually starred things live in the Compiler. But not always.
08:45	jarpiain	letfn* is the true special form, the letfn macro just adds some syntax sugar
08:46	jarpiain	just like let macro adds destructuring to the let* special form
08:47	fliebel	I never thought of letfn as something special… more special than let.
08:48	fogus_	fliebel: I don't understand what you mean
08:48	jarpiain	in scheme it's possible to implement letfn using let because the bindings created with let are mutable
08:48	chouser	though in the case of letfn and let, along with many other "special forms", the macro input is the official and documented api. Don't rely on the behavior or even the existence of let* or letfn*
08:49	chouser	for example, 'if' has been a macro is some versions of clojure and a special form in others.
08:50	fliebel	chouser: a macro of what? What is it currently?
08:51	LauJensen	The only exception is Enlives emit* which I love too much to respect christophes warnings :)
08:52	hiredman	uh, I think it was a macro when rest was split into first/next
08:52	hiredman	if expanded into a check to see if you were nil puning
08:52	hiredman	er
08:52	hiredman	rest/next
08:53	chouser	hiredman: right
08:53	chouser	fliebel: so temporarily the special form was if* and if was a macro that used it
08:53	fogus_	BTW, what is the canonical meaning of foo* (i.e. starness)
08:54	chouser	and now if is back to being a special form
08:54	hiredman	foo* is many times used to mean "a helper for implementing foo"
08:54	chouser	fogus_: I think it's like a "prime" quote in math. x' is somehow related to x
08:55	fogus_	chouser, hiredman: I see. That is what I expected. But there are some (list*) that are freely used, and others that are "off-limits"
08:55	hiredman	of course since we have a unicode enabled language we can also just use ′
09:00	jarpiain	list* is from Common Lisp but the naming doesn't seem to be consistent there either
09:01	chouser	yeah, list* does seem oddly named
09:02	fogus_	I propose changing the name to awesome-list
09:03	bartj	, (doc list*)
09:03	clojurebot	"([args] [a args] [a b args] [a b c args] [a b c d & more]); Creates a new list containing the items prepended to the rest, the last of which will be treated as a sequence."
09:05	fogus_	,(let [awesome-list list*] (awesome-list 1 2 3 4 [5 6 7 8]))
09:05	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)
09:07	bartj	what are the "a" and "b" in the documentation of list* ?
09:07	bartj	, (list* 1 2 3 4) ;fails!
09:07	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
09:09	fogus_	bartj: a and b are just args. The last thing (args) is something that is seqable
09:10	fogus_	see my use of awesome-list
09:11	bartj	hmm, is list* syntactic sugar too?
09:11	bartj	because (list* 1 2 3 4 (range 10)) = (into (list 1 2 3 4) (range 10))
09:11	fogus_	bartj: No. It's just a function https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L580
09:11	bartj	maybe not syntactic sugar exactly, but you get the drift.
09:13	Chousuke	,(list* 1 2 3 4 (range 10))
09:13	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 0 1 2 3 4 5 ...)
09:13	Chousuke	,(into (list 1 2 3 4) (range 10))
09:13	clojurebot	(9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ...)
09:14	fliebel	~seen Raynes
09:14	clojurebot	Raynes was last seen in #clojure, 279 minutes ago saying: Close enough though.
09:14	fogus_	,[(list* 1 2 {:a 3 :b 4}) (list* 1 2 "abc") (list* 1 2 '#{a b c})]
09:14	clojurebot	[(1 2 [:a 3] [:b 4]) (1 2 \a \b \c) (1 2 a c b)]
09:15	bartj	Chousuke, am assuming order is not important while using lists
09:15	Chousuke	bartj: huh?
09:15	Chousuke	I just demonstrated that list* is not equal to the into thing :)
09:16	bartj	because the ordering of the list generated is different?
09:16	Chousuke	yes.
09:16	Chousuke	list* is a basic function anyway, not syntactic sugar
09:16	Chousuke	~def list*
09:17	djpowell	there is a nice usage of using fingertrees for statistics here: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2010/11/statistical-fingertrees.html
09:18	bartj	Chousuke, thank you
09:24	fogus_	spread is fun too
09:24	fogus_	,(#'clojure.core/spread [1 2 3 [4 5 6]])
09:24	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6)
09:26	fogus_	Although I guess it's just the same as (apply list* [1 2 3 [4 5 6]])
09:34	Chousuke	fogus_: except list* uses spread :P
09:35	Chousuke	as does apply
09:37	fogus_	Chousuke: Minor implementation detail. ;-)
10:26	tonyl	morning
10:26	fliebel	morning
10:27	lauri`	use /nick laurioherd
10:28	stuartsierra	mollie
10:28	stuartsierra	ignore
11:08	bartj	the definition of difference in clojure.set/difference seems very different to me
11:08	bartj	I thought it was (A - B) where A and B are two sets
11:10	bartj	sorry, wrong interpretation!
12:03	ohpauleez	technomancy: Are you a wondermark fan?
12:08	hiredman	ohpauleez: he is
12:08	ohpauleez	ahhh cool.
12:08	zmyrgel	I'm getting "unable to resolve classname" -error from my use my defrecord defined in other file
12:09	chouser	zmyrgel: if you want to use a defrecord constructor directly, in need to import the class, not just use the namespace
12:09	zmyrgel	chouser: ah, thought that there would be something like that
12:09	chouser	zmyrgel: it's generally recommended to provide your own function in that namespace that calls the ctor
12:10	chouser	doing that allows 'use' to be sufficient again, as well as giving you a place (in the function) to provide default args, etc.
12:11	zmyrgel	ok, gotta see that
13:13	jashmenn	i dont get this
13:13	jashmenn	,(conj [1 2 3] "b")
13:13	clojurebot	[1 2 3 "b"]
13:13	jashmenn	,(conj (lazy-seq [1 2 3]) "b")
13:13	clojurebot	("b" 1 2 3)
13:14	stuartsierra	"conj" means "add to collection"
13:14	tonyl	lazy-seq returns a seq
13:14	amalloy	jashmenn: conj adds in whatever way is cheapest
13:14	tonyl	vectors are appended
13:14	tonyl	seqs are added in the head
13:14	jashmenn	ah okay
13:14	jashmenn	thanks
13:15	chouser	,(conj {:a 1 :c 3} [:b 2])
13:15	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1, :c 3}
13:15	hiredman	clojurebot: oracle is <reply>The sky is falling!
13:15	clojurebot	Roger.
13:16	amalloy	hiredman: oh, <reply> is a cute feature. does he have any other modifiers?
13:18	hiredman	no, <action> would be nice
13:18	hiredman	there are also variables that can be filled in
13:18	amalloy	hiredman: like how?
13:18	hiredman	clojurebot: say goodbye is <reply>goodbye #who!
13:18	clojurebot	Ok.
13:18	hiredman	clojurebot: say goodbye
13:18	clojurebot	goodbye hiredman!
13:19	pjstadig	clojurebot: say goodbye
13:19	clojurebot	goodbye pjstadig!
13:19	amalloy	nice
13:19	stuartsierra	clojurebot: are you skynet?
13:19	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:20	tonyl	oracle is
13:20	tonyl	oracle is?
13:20	chouser	clojurebot: oracle!
13:20	clojurebot	The sky is falling!
13:21	tonyl	:P
13:39	Raynes	sexpbot: kill
13:39	sexpbot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
13:42	amalloy	$sed -sexpbot s/FIRE/HUGS
13:42	sexpbot	<sexpbot> $sed -sexpbot s/HUGS/HUGS
13:42	amalloy	hm. that doesn't seem right
13:43	amalloy	am i misremembering the sed syntax?
13:43	slyrus	missing trailing / ?
13:44	amalloy	slyrus: maybe, but i made the trailing / optional cause i kept forgetting it, so that would be a bug
13:44	Raynes	amalloy: Would you believe my ISP still hasn't cleared it's DNS cache? :<
13:44	amalloy	s/kept forgetting/hate
13:44	sexpbot	<amalloy> slyrus: maybe, but i made the trailing / optional cause i hate it, so that would be a bug
13:45	Raynes	amalloy: I think you broke sed.
13:45	amalloy	slyrus: yeah, that's not the problem. i suspect he just doesn't handle sedding his own messages quite as i'd expect
13:45	amalloy	$sed Raynes s/broke/fixed
13:45	sexpbot	<> $sed Raynes s/fixed/fixed
13:45	amalloy	$sed -Raynes s/broke/fixed
13:45	sexpbot	<Raynes> amalloy: I think you fixed sed.
13:45	Raynes	No, you broke it. If sexpbot does something weird, it means you've broke it. Always. Period. No questions asked.
13:45	Raynes	:p
13:45	amalloy	Raynes: no, everything still works, except he can't sed himself
13:46	amalloy	Raynes: haha i think sexpbot does a lot of weird things on purpose
13:46	kzar	$sed -amalloy s/sed/***
13:46	kzar	awh shucks
13:46	amalloy	kzar: too slow :P
13:47	Raynes	I've got to leave for several hours. Have to drive my mother to an optometrist. <3
13:47	amalloy	Raynes: elbow any better?
14:06	fliebel	hrm, do I need to dig into Java for a timestap, or can Clojure give me that?
14:07	LauJensen	fliebel: like (System/nanoTime) ?
14:08	amalloy	&(System/currentTimeMillis)
14:08	sexpbot	⟹ 1289416240923
14:08	fliebel	LauJensen: Yea, but I saw (now) being used in some libs, so I was wondering if that existed anywhere in Clojure.
14:08	LOPP	guys I have trouble understanding the Ant program by Rich Hickey in clojure
14:09	LOPP	(defn evaporation [x](when running(send-off agent #'evaporation))(evaporate)(. Thread (sleep evap-sleep-ms))nil)
14:09	LOPP	specifically this part
14:09	kotarak	,(now)
14:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: now in this context
14:09	amalloy	LauJensen: nanoTime isn't necessarily good, depending on what he wants to use the timestamp for; ms might well be better
14:09	kotarak	fliebel: rather from some library
14:10	LauJensen	amalloy: not really
14:10	Chousuke	LOPP: that's an agent action that the agent sends to itself periodically
14:10	LOPP	if you are sendign off an agent in the start of the function, aren't you spamming the thread pool?
14:10	Chousuke	LOPP: no, the agent sends the action to itself
14:10	LOPP	I would understand if the agent send-off was the last call in the function
14:10	Chousuke	LOPP: so it just gets queued
14:10	LOPP	ah
14:10	hiredman	agent sends are held until the action completes
14:11	LOPP	so that thread sleep also delays the next execution
14:12	LOPP	also why does he use quoting
14:12	LOPP	#'evaporation
14:12	hiredman	you mean #'
14:12	hiredman	which is not quoting
14:12	hiredman	it means var
14:12	LOPP	right...
14:12	LOPP	why
14:12	hiredman	there are several reasons to use a var instead of the function the var holds
14:12	Chousuke	LOPP: it sends the var to the agent as the action so that it can be redefined on the fly.
14:12	hiredman	right
14:12	hiredman	that is the most common
14:12	LOPP	ok
14:12	Chousuke	LOPP: if it sent the function value, it couldn't be changed
14:13	LOPP	I've noticed this problem in my programs
14:13	Chousuke	LOPP: a var pointing to a function works just like the function when used as one
14:13	Chousuke	,(#'+ 1 2) like this
14:13	clojurebot	3
14:13	LOPP	I have a system of listeners in my program
14:14	LOPP	and the thing is that if I use function values then listeners can't be changed by simple redef
14:14	LOPP	if I use vars then I can't submit anonymous fns
14:15	Chousuke	you could use a id -> listener map
14:15	Chousuke	though hm
14:15	LOPP	hm let me take another look
14:16	LOPP	let me get a paste bin going
14:18	LOPP	http://pastebin.com/2FYJJ5vn
14:18	LOPP	look at get-listener-results fn
14:19	hiredman	you can, infact, have anonymous vars
14:19	LOPP	is that var-get needed
14:19	hiredman	but you shouldn't
14:20	LOPP	I'm probably doing loads of stupid shit in that code
14:20	LOPP	my first clojure program
14:22	LOPP	(if (symbol? funx)((var-get funx) handler-result)(funx handler-result)))
14:22	LOPP	is this needed?
14:22	Chousuke	is the fn ever going to be a symbol? :/
14:22	LOPP	well yes
14:22	Chousuke	also doesn't var-get take a var, not a symbol?
14:23	LOPP	maybe...I'm cofused as hell :P
14:23	LOPP	seems to work well now
14:23	Chousuke	yeah, because that (symbol? ..) thing is never true :)
14:23	LOPP	I can either say (add-listener my-fun)
14:23	LOPP	or (add-listener 'my-fun) and it works
14:24	LOPP	second variant allows rebinding to work perfectly
14:24	Chousuke	(add-listener #'my-fun) would work too, even without the special casing
14:24	Chousuke	(doc var-get)
14:24	clojurebot	"([x]); Gets the value in the var object"
14:24	LOPP	yes that was my question
14:25	Chousuke	but #'my-fun is not a symbol
14:25	LOPP	,(var-get 'first)
14:25	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Var
14:25	LOPP	it's a sybol
14:25	amalloy	&(class #'first)
14:25	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.lang.Var
14:25	LOPP	I see
14:25	Chousuke	yeah, that's what I'm confused about :/
14:25	Chousuke	why would the var-get in your code ever work?
14:25	amalloy	&(class 'first)
14:25	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.lang.Symbol
14:25	LOPP	it works if you do 'first instead of #'first
14:26	hiredman	no it doesn't
14:26	Chousuke	yeah, but then the (symbol? ...) is not true :)
14:26	hiredman	it passes 'first to var-get
14:26	Chousuke	and the var-get still doesn't get called.
14:26	LOPP	ah
14:26	LOPP	well I guess I'm screwing this one up :/
14:26	hiredman	Chousuke: 'first is a symbol
14:26	Chousuke	but THEN it works because you can treat vars holding functions as functions
14:26	Chousuke	hiredman: I know
14:27	Chousuke	hiredman: I was talking about what his code does if he passes #'foo to the function
14:27	hiredman	so why wouldn't the var-get get called if he passed 'first?
14:27	hiredman	Chousuke: and he said "it works if you pass 'first instead of #'first"
14:27	Chousuke	hm, then I read it the other way around
14:27	LOPP	what about non functions
14:28	Chousuke	LOPP: won't work
14:28	amalloy	LOPP: what about them?
14:28	LOPP	I mean...if I have a global var with some constant
14:28	Chousuke	you'll get an exception
14:28	LOPP	then I have a bunch of function using this global
14:28	LOPP	how do I make it support rebinding
14:28	Chousuke	ah
14:29	Chousuke	no need
14:29	Chousuke	just redef it
14:29	amalloy	LOPP: you can (def) it again
14:29	LOPP	ordinarily the function defn will capture the then current global var value, right?
14:29	amalloy	no
14:29	Chousuke	that'll be what happens in 1.3 though
14:29	Chousuke	I think
14:29	amalloy	still not quite true, Chousuke
14:29	Chousuke	the problem in this case is what happens when you call (add-listener foo)
14:29	LOPP	because that was exactly what was happening to me here
14:30	amalloy	re-def will still work in 1.3; it's (binding) that will need more magic
14:30	Chousuke	foo is evaluated, and its value, the function, is passed to add-listener
14:30	Chousuke	so add-listener never sees the foo var
14:30	LOPP	right
14:30	Chousuke	but if you use foo in a defn someplace, it won't be replaced like that.
14:30	Chousuke	instead, it'll be a Var.get() call every time
14:30	Chousuke	so rebinding works
14:32	LOPP	hm
14:32	Chousuke	but if you call (add-listener #'foo), you're actually passing the var itself to act as the listener
14:32	Chousuke	so redefs work
14:32	LOPP	ok
14:32	LOPP	so I need to be careful when passing things as arguments
14:33	LOPP	but not when coding the fn itself
14:33	Chousuke	only if you need to redefine things dynamically :)
14:33	LOPP	and this only works for functions
14:33	LOPP	ok
14:33	Chousuke	well, you can always do @somevar
14:33	Chousuke	to get its value
14:33	LOPP	@#'first
14:33	Chousuke	,@#'first
14:33	clojurebot	#<core$first clojure.core$first@5d1647>
14:33	LOPP	ok
14:33	LOPP	thanks a lot
14:34	LOPP	clojure is hard :P
14:34	Chousuke	LOPP: nah. it just takes a while. :)
14:34	Chousuke	It's not the easiest language though.
14:34	LOPP	don't worry I like hard
14:34	LOPP	I'm bored out of my mind with java
14:35	LOPP	every code snippet is so trivial yet large programs are often intractable
14:35	LOPP	I want things the other way around :p
14:35	Chousuke	hehe
14:36	amalloy	LOPP: the clojure code snippets are a lot less complicated than the equivalent java too, usually
14:36	fliebel	wohooo, I wrote my first sexpbot plugin! come check it out in #tempchan
14:36	amalloy	none of this fiddling around with for loop indexes every time you want to do something with a collection
14:36	Chousuke	I like apache refactoring example :P
14:36	Chousuke	where a 10-something line java method becomes a single line of Clojure code.
14:36	LOPP	today I was fixing a JSF page which had 5 different representations of the same document floating around session data at the same time
14:37	LOPP	intractable
14:58	pppaul	rosetta code now has more clojure rep!
14:59	pppaul	LLOP: why is clojure hard?
14:59	pppaul	what examples are you guys talking about?
15:07	amalloy	pppaul: well, an example of clojure's brevity came up yesterday
15:08	amalloy	someone wanted to write a function f so that (f + [1 2 3 4]) returns [1 3 6 10]
15:08	pppaul	&(second (re-find #" (\d{1,2}:\d{1,2}:\d{1,2}) UTC" (slurp "http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/timer.pl")))
15:08	sexpbot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.net.SocketPermission tycho.usno.navy.mil:80 connect,resolve)
15:09	pppaul	sounds like a cool function
15:09	amalloy	try it in java, and then think about the clojure version
15:09	Chousuke	(def reductions)
15:09	amalloy	&(reductions + [1 2 3 4 5 6])
15:09	sexpbot	⟹ (1 3 6 10 15 21)
15:09	pppaul	i don't touch java :P
15:09	pppaul	javascript, maybe
15:09	amalloy	man i know, guys
15:09	Chousuke	~def reductions
15:09	pppaul	(doc reductions)
15:09	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f init coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init."
15:10	pppaul	reduction is sexy
15:11	pppaul	(source reductions)
15:11	pppaul	&(source reductions)
15:11	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
15:11	amalloy	$source reductions
15:11	sexpbot	reductions is http://is.gd/gUAFl
15:13	amalloy	pppaul: https://gist.github.com/e8c514dd7543d071fbf2
15:13	amalloy	and it only works for ints :P
15:13	pppaul	&(reductions + (take 50 (repeat 1)))
15:13	sexpbot	⟹ (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50)
15:13	amalloy	and +
15:14	pppaul	reductions has so many restrictions?
15:14	amalloy	?
15:14	amalloy	no, the java version i slapped together does
15:14	pppaul	oh
15:14	pppaul	oooooooh
15:15	pppaul	how are you using array.clone()? i thought it was a protected method
15:15	pppaul	oh wait
15:15	pppaul	nm
15:15	amalloy	Object.clone is protected; arrays make it public
15:15	pppaul	but array.clone is a shallow clone, right?
15:15	amalloy	yes...but ints aren't references, so that doesn't matter
15:15	pppaul	or is clone fixed now?
15:16	pppaul	ok
15:16	pppaul	ints are pretty sexy
15:16	amalloy	you can't really "fix" clone to always deep-clone. the meaning of clone will vary by class
15:17	pppaul	the code seems pretty simple
15:17	amalloy	the java for intermediateSums, you mean?
15:17	pppaul	yes
15:18	pppaul	also, the clone for java is broken cus it's protected, not because of wanting to deep-clone or not
15:18	amalloy	sure, it's not hard code. but java makes you deal with all the fiddly bits like array indexing, allcating the return value
15:19	pppaul	if i have a vector<fancy-obj> vec. vec.clone() will call Object.clone() not fancy-obj.clone()
15:19	amalloy	and you have to restrict yourself to a fixed type and a fixed operator
15:19	amalloy	um, no it won't
15:19	pppaul	but vector is actually for Objects... so the whole collections framework is crap
15:19	amalloy	it won't call any .clone at all
15:19	pppaul	it wont?
15:19	pppaul	i thought it would
15:20	pppaul	what will vec.clone() do?
15:20	amalloy	it makes a new vector with new references to the same objects
15:20	pppaul	so only 1 .clone() method is called in total?
15:20	amalloy	indeed
15:20	pppaul	surprise
15:20	amalloy	which is pretty useful behavior, in fact
15:20	pppaul	what?
15:20	clojurebot	what is wrong with you
15:21	pppaul	i can see how it's useful to have that behaviour =
15:21	pppaul	but, i want other behaviours too
15:21	pppaul	doing a deep clone of a vector gave me a lot of problems
15:22	amalloy	pppaul: yeah. java's non-deep-cloning behavior means if you want that you have to iterate through the cloned vector's elements and clone each one in turn
15:22	amalloy	not hard, but more fiddly bits
15:22	pppaul	it's a surprise
15:22	amalloy	meh
15:23	amalloy	any behavior would be surprising some of the time
15:23	pppaul	just like how CL has shared objects and non-shared objects... sometimes that leads to surprises
15:23	devinus	(doc defmacro)
15:23	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?]); Like defn, but the resulting function name is declared as a macro and will be used as a macro by the compiler when it is called."
15:24	pppaul	anyway, if you search google for people trying to deep-clone in java.... some people are doing crazy stuff, like serializing to clone.
15:26	pppaul	so some people's surprises are another person's adventure to find out how they are supposed to solve the problem in an elegant way using the provided language features... and that leads to crazy stuff sometimes
15:27	tonyl	&(doc if-let)
15:27	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([bindings then] [bindings then else & oldform]); bindings => binding-form test If test is true, evaluates then with binding-form bound to the value of test, if not, yields else"
15:29	tonyl	where is the test part in if-let
15:30	amalloy	"bindings => binding-form test"
15:30	fogus_	tonyl: in the value part of the binding
15:30	amalloy	&(if-let [a (inc 0)] a)
15:30	sexpbot	⟹ 1
15:30	amalloy	&(if-let [a nil] a)
15:30	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:30	tonyl	ooh ok, all the values must be true then
15:30	amalloy	all of them?
15:31	tonyl	&(if-let [a false b 54] [a b])
15:31	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: if-let requires exactly 2 forms in binding vector
15:31	tonyl	oh so only one
15:31	fogus_	,(if-let [this-is-truthy :anything-that-is-truthy] this-is-truthy)
15:31	clojurebot	:anything-that-is-truthy
15:31	amalloy	&(if-let [[a b] [false 54]] [a b])
15:31	sexpbot	⟹ [false 54]
15:31	amalloy	&(if-let [[a b] nil] [a b])
15:31	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:32	fogus_	amalloy: even better
15:33	amalloy	fogus_: not very good in general though. you can't bind b to 54 iff a is not falsey
15:34	fogus_	I'm not sure that I've ever needed to bind more than one thing in if-let
15:34	amalloy	fogus_: i've wanted to, just to shorten my (if foo (let [...])) forms
15:35	fogus_	It becomes too complicated to reason about
15:35	amalloy	but technomancy and i have different expectations for what this "would" do if it worked
15:35	amalloy	so it's a good thing it doesn't :)
15:42	pppaul	&(#( % %) #(% %))
15:42	sexpbot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
15:42	pppaul	^_^
15:44	tonyl	$sed -pppaul s/( %/(%/
15:44	sexpbot	tonyl: Format is sed [-<user name>] s/<regexp>/<replacement>/ Try <prefix>help sed
15:44	tonyl	$help sed
15:44	sexpbot	tonyl: Simple find and replace. Usage: sed [-<user name>] s/<regexp>/<replacement>/If the specified user isn't found, it will default to the last thing said in the channel. Example Usage: sed -boredomist s/[aeiou]/#/Shorthand : s/[aeiou]/#/
15:45	amalloy	tonyl: ( is special in regexes
15:45	tonyl	$sed -pppaul s/\( %/(%/
15:45	tonyl	brain fart
15:45	amalloy	heh
15:46	tonyl	i'm guessing it only works with the last message
15:46	amalloy	tonyl: i'm certain it only works with the last message :)
15:46	amalloy	since i'm the current maintainer of $sed :P
15:47	pppaul	:P
15:47	amalloy	$sed -pppaul s/P/D!
15:47	sexpbot	<pppaul> :D!
15:48	amalloy	turn that frown upside-down, matey
15:48	pppaul	=[
15:55	tonyl	lol
15:55	tonyl	amalloy: do you have an open repo of the $sed?
15:55	tonyl	$sed -pppaul s/\[/~\(/
15:55	sexpbot	<pppaul> =~(
15:56	amalloy	tonyl: yeah, it's in raynes' sexpbot
15:56	amalloy	http://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot/blob/master/src/sexpbot/plugins/sed.clj
15:57	tonyl	cool, i wanted to check the code
15:59	amalloy	$sed -pppaul s/[[]/~(/
15:59	sexpbot	amalloy: Format is sed [-<user name>] s/<regexp>/<replacement>/ Try <prefix>help sed
15:59	amalloy	hm, that should parse
15:59	tonyl	brackets are special chars
15:59	amalloy	tonyl: i know, which is why i mangled it
15:59	amalloy	[[] is the character class matching [
16:00	pppaul	&(#( % ) #(% ))
16:00	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox4153$eval6042$fn
16:00	amalloy	i was hoping to demonstrate that \[ wasn't the only way
16:00	tonyl	yeah that is weird
16:00	pppaul	&(#( % %) #(% ))
16:00	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox4153$eval6055$fn
16:00	pppaul	&(#( % %) #(% %))
16:00	sexpbot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
16:00	tonyl	weird
16:01	pppaul	has anyone programmed in chef?
16:02	ohpauleez	pppaul: As in the Ruby deployment tool?
16:03	pppaul	Chef is an esoteric programming language designed by David Morgan-Mar
16:04	tonyl	amalloy: that regex gives me an error here http://www.regexplanet.com/simple/index.html
16:04	amalloy	yeah, i must be wrong about [[]
16:05	tonyl	i thought only ^ was a special char inside the brackets
16:05	amalloy	]^-\ are special
16:06	tonyl	so it is an implementation error, maybe
16:07	amalloy	tonyl: maybe. that's a conclusion that's more often jumped to than demonstrated
16:08	tonyl	yeah
16:08	amalloy	otoh it works in perl
16:08	amalloy	$ perl -p -e 's/[[]/!/g;'
16:08	amalloy	11[][[]]
16:08	amalloy	11!]!!]]
16:09	amalloy	&#"[[]"
16:09	sexpbot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unclosed character class near index 2[[] ^
16:09	amalloy	tonyl: okay, you win. java's regex compiler doesn't handle this right
16:10	pppaul	for [[]?
16:10	amalloy	yeah
16:10	pppaul	[\[]
16:10	tonyl	so in java you can have character classes inside char classes?
16:10	amalloy	i dunno
16:10	tonyl	ha interesting
16:10	tonyl	testing time
16:10	amalloy	obviously you can get around it with \[, but that's not supposed to be required
16:11	pppaul	bug
16:11	amalloy	tonyl: php does, though, btw. the amusing character class [][] matches open or close brackets
16:11	chouser	,(re-find #"[[]]]" "]")
16:11	clojurebot	"]"
16:11	chouser	weird
16:11	amalloy	way weird
16:12	amalloy	chouser: that doesn't work in perl (and it shouldn't)
16:12	chouser	right
16:12	chouser	"work" in this case is a subset of "fails to work"
16:16	LOPP	you can get around special characters in groups if you put them into spots where they can't be
16:16	amalloy	LOPP: we're well aware. see my note about [][]. but java doesn't do it properly
16:20	pppaul	[.][.]
16:21	lancepantz	vector boobs.
16:24	pppaul	put a closure on it
16:36	anonymouse89	how do I eval a string? Something like (eval "[1 2 3]") -> [1 2 3]
16:36	chouser	anonymouse89: start with read-string
16:38	anonymouse89	chouser: ah, that's it. My only problem now is that I wrote maps to file and some of the values are strings. But they weren't written to file with quotes around them so {:name "bob"} becames "{:name bob}" when I read it back in.
16:40	chouser	anonymouse89: yeah, that's a problem. if you want to be able to "read" them later, you should use prn instead of println when printing
16:41	pppaul	(eval (read-string string))
16:42	anonymouse89	chouser: this is good. but it still fails for sequences of numbers
16:42	anonymouse89	,(prn {:a '(1 2 3)})
16:42	clojurebot	{:a (1 2 3)}
16:42	pppaul	look at my example on rosettacode for the A B problem
16:42	tonyl	anonymouse89: maybe (map) the map entries and replace format them accordingly
16:43	pppaul	(eval (read-string (str "(+ " (read-line) " )") ))
16:43	pppaul	3 3
16:43	pppaul	6
16:44	anonymouse89	tonyl: i don't quite understand what you mean
16:45	pppaul	look at rossetacode :24-game :A+B. clojuredocs is good too
16:46	chouser	,(read-string (pr-str {:a '(1 2 3)}))
16:46	clojurebot	{:a (1 2 3)}
16:46	chouser	anonymouse89: what's the problem there?
16:48	tonyl	(map (fn [[k v]] [k (prn-str v)]) {:a foo :b bar})
16:48	tonyl	&(map (fn [[k v]] [k (prn-str v)]) {:a foo :b bar})
16:48	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
16:49	anonymouse89	chouser: I guess nothing. I just thought I remembered doing something awhile ago where if "{:a (1 2 3)}" is written to a file and then read back in it says Integer not IFn
16:49	tonyl	&(map (fn [[k v]] [k (prn-str v)]) (read-string "{:a foo :b bar}"))
16:49	sexpbot	⟹ ([:a "foo\n"] [:b "bar\n"])
16:49	hiredman	anonymouse89: evaling and reading are not the same thing
16:50	tonyl	&(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (prn-str v)]) (read-string "{:a foo :b bar}")))
16:50	sexpbot	⟹ {:a "foo\n", :b "bar\n"}
16:51	tonyl	&(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (.replace (prn-str v) "\n" "")]) (read-string "{:a foo :b bar}")))
16:51	sexpbot	⟹ {:a "foo", :b "bar"}
16:51	tonyl	there we go
16:51	tonyl	somewhat wordy though
16:51	chouser	pr-str instead of prn-str
16:52	tonyl	&(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (pr-str v)]) (read-string "{:a foo :b bar}")))
16:52	sexpbot	⟹ {:a "foo", :b "bar"}
16:53	anonymouse89	tonyl: nice
16:53	tonyl	if it is a big map though, you might want to improve it
16:53	tonyl	for performance because into and map makes it go double through the map
16:54	anonymouse89	it's not a big map
16:54	tonyl	alright
16:56	Chousuke	it doesn't go through the map twice.
16:56	Chousuke	map is lazy
16:56	amalloy	pppaul: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/24_game#Clojure is yours?
16:57	amalloy	nm, i can see that it is :P
16:57	tonyl	oh so just once with into then
16:57	pppaul	hshshs
16:57	amalloy	why does (gen-new-game-nums) use 0-10 instead of 1-9?
16:57	pppaul	:D
16:58	pppaul	um
16:58	pppaul	isn't that part of the ruls? 0-9
16:58	amalloy	"four digits, each from one to nine, with repetitions allowed"
16:58	pppaul	oops
16:58	amalloy	even if 0-9 were right, you're giving 0-10 with your rand-int 11, no?
16:58	pppaul	time to fix that (0s made it hard to play anyway)
16:59	pppaul	i never saw a 10 while testing
16:59	amalloy	&(take 100 (repeatedly #(rand-int 11)))
16:59	sexpbot	⟹ (0 5 2 8 10 4 10 6 3 2 1 2 7 6 0 6 10 9 3 4 9 9 5 8 10 10 4 6 5 10 2 9 0 0 9 7 4 9 6 4 9 3 2 4 9 0 2 5 5 0 7 6 2 0 7 6 6 10 8 6 0 0 8 8 7 10 6 4 5 1 7 10 2 7 7 8 1 6 10 5 10 0 1 1 9 4 2 2 6 2 10 7 0 9 1 9 8 2 0 8)
17:01	amalloy	pppaul: and this will blow the stack if the user takes a few thousand tries to get the answer chuckle
17:02	pppaul	it'll blow the stack at like 30k tries
17:03	pppaul	it may be possible to do that by giving it lots of newlines as input
17:03	amalloy	pppaul: rather than assume the stack is big enough, why not just use (recur)? you're in the tail position already
17:07	pppaul	cus i'm a believer that the JVM will have tail-call recursion sometime soon
17:07	pppaul	lol
17:08	LOPP	that's optimistic
17:08	pppaul	also, i'm a newb and don't always know when i can use recur
17:10	pppaul	so, i made the 2 bug fixes on rosetta code. thanks
17:13	pppaul	are complex numbers in clojure?
17:13	pppaul	&(1+2i)
17:13	sexpbot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 1+2i
17:14	pppaul	guess not
17:17	amalloy	&(doc complex)
17:17	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: complex in this context
17:17	amalloy	clojure.contrib.complex-numbers
17:18	amalloy	pppaul:
17:19	pppaul	thanks
17:20	pppaul	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/complex-numbers-api.html (there is no documentation yet)
17:37	LOPP	is there any special requirement for namespaces to be all in one file
17:37	LOPP	can I make namespace2.clj which has (ns namespace1)
17:38	amalloy	LOPP: hm. well, don't take this as gospel truth, but
17:38	amalloy	i believe you can do that, except that when someone (require)s your ns1, the runtime will look for it in ns1.clj
17:38	amalloy	so in practice it's not useful
17:39	LOPP	ok
18:00	maacl	What would be an ideomatic way of writing a test of a database insert using lazytest? using do-it? does this work with contexts?
18:35	bhenry	i'm looking for something similar to map, but instead of mapping one function over a collection of things, i want to take a hash-map and a collection of functions. then i want back a collection of each function applied to the one hash-map
18:36	bhenry	shouldn't be hard to write, but wanted to know if it existed.
18:36	amalloy	bhenry: juxt?
18:36	bhenry	,(doc juxt)
18:36	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Alpha - name subject to change. Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, a...
18:36	amalloy	&((juxt quot rem) 20 6)
18:36	sexpbot	⟹ [3 2]
18:37	amalloy	&(doc juxt)
18:37	sexpbot	⟹ "([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Alpha - name subject to change. Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b... http://gist.github.com/671727
18:37	bhenry	&((juxt :a :b :c) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
18:37	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2 3]
18:38	bhenry	amalloy that's it thanks!
18:38	replaca	pppaul: the doc at richhickey.github.com is obsolete, pelase use clojure.github.com (though I think in that particular case the changes are only cosmetic)
18:38	amalloy	bhenry: welcome to the world of juxt
18:38	KirinDave	Is there an inverse to juxt?
18:38	KirinDave	dejuxt?
18:38	amalloy	KirinDave: ...what would it do?
18:38	replaca	KirinDave: what would that be?
18:38	KirinDave	Such that ((dejuxt :a :b c) [1 2 3]) ; => {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}
18:39	replaca	KirinDave: juxt isn't a map function
18:39	amalloy	KirinDave: juxt is more general than that, but haven't you just reinvented zipmap?
18:39	replaca	it's a function combiner
18:39	KirinDave	amalloy: I'm asking if something exists.
18:39	KirinDave	replaca: No, I get that.
18:40	technomancy	combinernator
18:40	KirinDave	replaca: Sorry, I didn't mean literal hash
18:40	replaca	technomancy: I was exlicitly avoiding combinator :)
18:40	KirinDave	I meant something such that (retval :a) => 1
18:40	replaca	*explicitly
18:40	amalloy	technomancy: hey, look who's here. you have your client set up to highlight you when someone mentions juxt? :)
18:41	technomancy	amalloy: not yet, but that will soon change
18:41	KirinDave	Is this crazy?
18:41	amalloy	KirinDave: it sounds crazy to me, but i guess if you defined it more clearly it might turn out to be useful?
18:41	replaca	KirinDave: you mean a primitive function definition?
18:41	replaca	f(:a) => 1, etc.
18:41	KirinDave	Yeah
18:42	KirinDave	It'd be like constantly on steroids.
18:42	replaca	a literal hash map
18:42	KirinDave	Yeah, that'd do it.
18:42	replaca	does exactly that
18:42	KirinDave	yes
18:42	amalloy	KirinDave: right. zipmap
18:42	replaca	and Rich has taken pains that it fill that role
18:42	replaca	,({:a 1, :b 2} :a)
18:42	amalloy	&((juxt :a :b) (zipmap [:a :b] [1 2]))
18:42	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2]
18:42	clojurebot	1
18:42	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
18:43	amalloy	tada!
18:43	pppaul	clojure.github.com bad url name :replaca
18:43	KirinDave	yeah.
18:43	amalloy	pppaul: www.github.com/clojure/clojure
18:44	replaca	pppaul: no, I meant this: http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/complex-numbers-api.html
18:44	pppaul	where is the documentation ?
18:44	replaca	instead of the same with richhickey
18:44	KirinDave	I guess I just strongly associate juxt with the :key usage.
18:45	pppaul	replaca there isn't much a diff in those pages
18:45	amalloy	KirinDave: using juxt as sorta a multi-get?
18:45	replaca	KirinDave: yeah, that's an awesome use case, but it's also a great example of how keywords as functions gives you stuff for free
18:45	pppaul	why have 2 sets? are there plans to take down the older doc websites?
18:45	replaca	pppaul: nope, as I said in that case
18:45	KirinDave	amalloy: Yes. Which can be really nice in some cases.
18:46	KirinDave	I should use it more
18:46	KirinDave	So I've got several github messages
18:46	replaca	pppaul: but in general, I stopped updating richhickey... back in the summer and it will fall further behind over time
18:46	amalloy	KirinDave: hm
18:46	KirinDave	of people asking me, "Why should use use clothesline when I could just use ring."
18:46	KirinDave	I dunno if I should like super-extra-bold the readme
18:46	KirinDave	"Clothesline uses Ring" in like 90pt font
18:47	technomancy	ugh; people message you over that?
18:47	replaca	but (as yesterday) what people want to know, is why should I use clothesline + ring instead of ring by itself
18:47	KirinDave	technomancy: Yes.
18:48	technomancy	I had to add "personal email is not an appropriate avenue for bug reports" to the lein readme, so I guess I shouldn't act surprised.
18:48	KirinDave	replaca: That's sort of like asking why people use api frameworks over rack in the ruby world
18:48	danlarkin	technomancy: heresy!
18:48	KirinDave	replaca: Ring is just adapterware.
18:48	KirinDave	Don't get me wrong, it's hella useful if you have trivial stuff to bang out.
18:49	KirinDave	but then someone sends your service an OPTIONS request and you really should respond to that and you go augh.
18:49	replaca	yeah, I get that. But the response "Clothesline uses ring" doesn't address that
18:49	KirinDave	Also I guess the http 1.1 graph for webmachine terrifies people. :)
18:50	KirinDave	I wsa talking with some of the basho dudes about this. Considering adding fluffy bunnies as node bodies so that people will feel more at ease. ;)
18:52	replaca	KirinDave: I think it's just opaque to people have haven't yet suffered from the problem
18:52	KirinDave	It is definitely opaque.
18:52	KirinDave	That's the major issue to address with it going forward.
18:58	KirinDave	It's the same problem I had with Katamari tho.
18:58	KirinDave	It's quite useful when you need it, but very few people actually need it.
18:58	KirinDave	I should just make an open source distributed key-value store. I hear that sells well.
19:01	amalloy	KirinDave: no, sell a toolkit for developing such things. the people who actually made money during the gold rush were the equipment salesman
19:02	KirinDave	amalloy: I guess so.
19:02	KirinDave	I actually wonder if anyone in the world besides Powerset actually needed Katamari.
19:03	KirinDave	When your pitch starts off with, "Do YOU have 20 year old code that does something cool but can't tell stdio from stderr? Do YOU need to run thousands of instances of this while they crash and burn randomly and pretend you can meet an SLA? Well I have the project for you!"
19:04	amalloy	haha what is katamari? i must have missed out, aside from the video game
19:05	cemerick	KirinDave: LOL @ "…just use ring"
19:06	cemerick	KirinDave: This is what's called a "teaching moment" ;-)
19:06	KirinDave	amalloy: it was my erlang system that was the infrastructure that powerset.com's realtime query analysis/reformulation stuff
19:06	KirinDave	Every hit to powerset.com hit this stack a few times
19:06	KirinDave	It basically was some stuff to created a distributed cloud of heterogenous resources with a uniform calling convention using json-rpc
19:07	KirinDave	Most of the things it talked to had no multithreading, so they were put in read-respond mode on io lines. Lots of them run as separate processes on farm machines
19:08	KirinDave	Katamari would kill/restart these as necessary to keep the spice flowing, where the spice in this case was natural language analysis
19:08	amalloy	sounds like a blast
19:09	KirinDave	Ha
19:51	jartur	Can I somehow get a list of all of object's methods?
19:54	technomancy	jartur: C-c S-i in slime, clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show otherwise
20:05	amaevis	Is anyone here familiar with the Compiler.java implementation?
20:07	amaevis	ping?
20:07	clojurebot	PONG!
20:07	amaevis	pong?
20:07	clojurebot	PONG YANG!
20:07	amalloy	fascinating
20:08	amalloy	clojurebot: pong is <reply>ping?
20:08	clojurebot	Qinfengxiang!
20:08	amalloy	pong?
20:08	clojurebot	PONG YANG!
20:08	amalloy	jerk
20:08	amalloy	(dec clojurebot)
20:08	sexpbot	⟹ -2
20:08	amaevis	lol
20:08	amalloy	clojurebot: pong?
20:08	clojurebot	Qinfengxiang!
20:08	amalloy	wtf
20:09	amaevis	clojurebot: ping?
20:09	clojurebot	PONG!
20:09	amaevis	clojurebot: ping pong?
20:09	clojurebot	PONG!
20:10	amaevis	Sigh. I wish there were documentation on the Clojure compiler.
20:10	amalloy	amaevis: maybe the folks over at clojureclr have some
20:11	amaevis	I need the Java internals.
20:11	amaevis	I'm trying to persist closures.
20:11	amaevis	And the JVM offers no way to get the bytecode of a class after it's been defined.
20:12	amalloy	amaevis: i don't think that's true
20:12	amaevis	amalloy: Great! Do you know how?
20:13	amaevis	amalloy: I've been looking everywhere, including on the Oracle forums.
20:13	amalloy	well, i could be wrong
20:13	amaevis	amalloy: Oh. :(.
20:13	amalloy	are you looking to get bytecode out of .class files?
20:14	amalloy	or out of a running clojure program with no aot?
20:14	amaevis	No AOT.
20:15	amaevis	I've built a durable ref - (dref <value> <name> <store>)
20:15	amaevis	I want to make (fn)s durable.
20:17	technomancy	some functions are inherently unserializable
20:18	technomancy	those that close over reference types or streams
20:18	amaevis	I was counting on using ASM magic for that.
20:19	amaevis	Stateful functions wouldn't be allowed.
20:19	amalloy	amaevis: you could install a classloader that just logs all loaded classes and then delegates to a real loader?
20:19	amaevis	amalloy: I've tried that route, the issue is with ObjExpr - I can't figure out exactly where newInstance() is called.
20:20	amaevis	technomancy: Stateful functions excepting those using durable identities, that is.
20:21	amaevis	technomancy:
20:21	amaevis	Otherwise it cuts out 75% of the utility
20:21	amaevis	brb
20:43	jartur`	Dammit, clojure.contrib.sql sucks unfortunately.
20:44	amalloy	fightin' words, jartur`...i bet the person who wrote it is in here
20:44	coldhead	:(
20:44	jartur	I don't mean it personnaly
20:44	amalloy	anyway i haven't tried either, but you might give clojureql a try?
20:44	coldhead	are you sure your beef isn't with SQL per se?
20:44	coldhead	i know mine is!
20:45	jartur	I need several persistent connection to different dbs
20:45	amalloy	laujensen has been boasting about it recently
20:45	coldhead	SELECT beef FROM sql;
20:46	jartur	It's not the question of SQL or DB philosophy
20:46	jartur	Simply a question of technical possibilities for nonstandard applications
20:47	jartur	Now I will have to use pure JDBC probably. Or just make a fork of contrib.sql which doesn't use bindings
20:48	jartur	I hate bindings, btw =)
20:49	jartur	Though i generally suck, so it doesn't matter much what i hate or like.
21:18	jartur	ClojureQL doesn't seem to be good at keeping persistent connections. Request takes much more time than the interval I need (> 1 sec)
21:18	jartur	(time @(-> players (cql/select (cql.p/< {:us_person_id 6}))))
21:18	jartur	"Elapsed time: 5037.438388 msecs"
21:24	jartur	Noting that sql query takes about 4 to 10 msecs while connection takes 5000 msces.
21:43	Derander	that is ridiculously long
21:51	jartur	Yes it is. Though establishing MySQL connections is a costly operation
21:52	jartur	Much more expensive than most simple queries in terms of latency.
21:56	dnolen	jartur: have you looked at https://github.com/brentonashworth/carte ?
21:57	jartur	dnolen: I will, thank you.
21:59	jartur	i wonder when github will add support for code browsing =)
21:59	jartur	Would be so nice
22:01	jartur	dnolen: Unfortunately it uses contrib.sql and (with-connection ...) Which means that connection is closed after each operation.
22:01	jartur	Looks like nobody needs several persistent connections to SQL databases =)
22:02	dnolen	jartur: with-connection does not close the connection
22:02	dnolen	when you create the connection if you do w/ pooled connection you're fine
22:03	jartur	(defn with-connection*
22:03	jartur	"Evaluates func in the context of a new connection to a database then
22:03	jartur	closes the connection."
22:03	jartur	(with-open [con (get-connection db-spec)]
22:03	dnolen	http://dosync.posterous.com/22516635
22:03	dnolen	I've done many tests
22:03	dnolen	the connections do not get closed if you create the datasource properly
22:05	jartur	dnolen: Do you mean that calling .close() on a specifically configured connections do not actually close them?
22:05	dnolen	10,000 writes a second for mysql, more than that for postgresql
22:06	dnolen	on Amazon Compute Cluster
22:06	dnolen	with little in the way of optimizing either dbs
22:07	jartur	dnolen: How did you achieve connection pooling with standard contrib.sql?
22:08	dnolen	jartur: mysql, https://github.com/swannodette/second-post/blob/master/src/second_post/mysql.clj
22:08	dnolen	postgresql, https://github.com/swannodette/second-post/blob/master/src/second_post/postgres_pool.clj
22:09	jartur	Will it work with several different connections at the same time?
22:10	jartur	I mean to several different databases
22:14	lancepantz	jartur: yes, use c3p0, you can define as many connection pools as you'd like
22:15	jartur	lancepantz, dnolen, thank you. This is actually a solution I didn't even had an idea existed.
22:15	dnolen	jartur: np
22:16	lancepantz	jartur: if you're working with a webapp, you can actually define your connection pools as JNDI resources
22:16	lancepantz	http://docs.codehaus.org/display/JETTY/JNDI
22:36	amaevis	ping?
22:36	clojurebot	PONG!
22:36	amaevis	pong?
22:36	clojurebot	PONG YANG!
22:37	amaevis	(describe ns)
22:37	amaevis	,(describe ns)
22:37	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: describe in this context
22:38	amaevis	,(doc ns)
22:38	clojurebot	"([name docstring? attr-map? references]); Sets ns* to the namespace named by name (unevaluated), creating it if needed. references can be zero or more of: (:refer-clojure ...) (:require ...) (:use...
22:45	amaevis	Does anyone know if loaded classes ever get released by the JVM?
22:48	puredanger	amaevis: yes, but there are lots of caveats
22:50	amaevis	puredanger: Is there a GC-type thread for it?
22:51	puredanger	amaevis: classes are stored in permgen. how they're collected depends on the jvm and your gc settings
22:51	puredanger	amaevis: there are some well-known problems with gc of classloaders and classes (many of which are being addressed in jdk 7)
22:52	puredanger	on a quick google, here's a decent blog: http://blogs.sun.com/fkieviet/entry/classloader_leaks_the_dreaded_java
22:53	amaevis	puredanger: I wonder what kind of implications this has for long-running Clojure instances.
22:53	puredanger	amaevis: the same as for any long-running JVM-based program pretty much
22:54	amaevis	puredanger: I'm building a Class cache using the Google Guava MapMaker with WeakReference keys.
22:54	puredanger	amaevis: ah, well that's delicate work but those are excellent tools to start with
22:54	amaevis	puredanger: Do the strong/weak reference rules apply for Class objects?
22:55	puredanger	amaevis: sure, although you are affected by strong references from Classloaders to the Class loaded by them
22:55	amaevis	puredanger: Non-dynamic class JVM programs won't get OOM errors on permgen, so that's a consideration for closure-heavy apps.
22:56	puredanger	amaevis: well that's not true. I've gotten plenty of oom on permgen and I know it's a common issue on JRuby too
22:56	amaevis	puredanger: That's fine; I just wanted to know if I should even bother with the WeakReferences. If they never get collected, there would be no point.
22:57	amaevis	puredanger: Ah, I've never run into it. Is it more of a class size thing or a class count thing?
22:57	puredanger	amaevis: you should bother. we had something like this in Terracotta if you wanted to look at another (far more complicated) impl
22:58	puredanger	amaevis: comes up if you do a lot of dynamic class work
22:59	amaevis	puredanger: Hmm, I would love to get your thoughts on what I'm working on.
22:59	amaevis	puredanger: I'm trying to persist closures.
23:00	puredanger	amaevis: free to ping me at alexdmiler at yahoo if you want to move it out of here, happy to comment if I have a clue
23:00	puredanger	amaevis: sorry alexdmiller !
23:01	amaevis	puredanger: Thanks! It's not proprietary or anything, though. It's an extension to Clojure core.
23:01	puredanger	ok
23:02	amaevis	I've been working on adding durability to Clojure identities.
23:02	amaevis	I have versions of ref, atom, and agent that are durable and observe the other guarantees.
23:03	amaevis	Durable refs are ACID, etc.
23:03	amaevis	I've got the Clojure primitives and the persistent data structures all set.
23:03	amaevis	The only thing left are functions, especially closures.
23:04	arohner	technomancy: what function does C-c S-i map to for you? mine is unbound
23:04	coldhead	you share your name with a wonderful logician and philosopher, alex miller
23:06	amaevis	I'm trying to capture the bytecode and serialize it. On deserialization, I need to transform the class to modify the name to ensure that there's no collision in canonical names.
23:06	amaevis	And make sure that references to other classes hold.
23:07	amaevis	How does Terracotta handle that?
23:33	jk_	does anyone think that Oracle is going to cause trouble for Clojure or any of the other open source JVM based languages?
23:34	dnolen	jk_: i don't see how.
23:35	jk_	well... the only way I thought of it by going forward with future enhancements only on their pay-to-play JVM and trying to isolate and deprecate OpenJDK
23:36	seancorfield	if an open source JVM becomes the norm, how can they control it?
23:37	dnolen	jk_: rhickey has said he's happy if the JVM changes slow down - that directly affects the surface that Clojure has to support for Java interop. Oracle doesn't seem that interested in the more interesting extensions anyway, tail call optimization and continuations
23:37	jk_	well they don't have to make the standardization tests available, like they did with Harmony. that would force them to diverge
23:39	hiredman	I am sick of hearing about it
23:39	jk_	has anyone every talked about porting clojure to parrot?
23:39	dnolen	jk_: the JVM ecosystem has a long life ahead of it, Oracle or no. Plenty of time to get Clojure-in-Clojure well underway for people have irrational issues with the JVM.
23:40	dnolen	jk_: does parrot have anything remotely close the perf guarantees of the JVM?
23:40	dnolen	s/close/close to
23:40	sexpbot	<dnolen> jk_: does parrot have anything remotely close to the perf guarantees of the JVM?
23:40	jk_	dnolen: i kind of agree... however i would be willing to bet that most clojure code today calls a lot of java
23:40	hiredman	at no point has oracle said anything accept a. openjdk/hotspot and jrockit will be merged b. the resulting jdk plus oracle bells and whistles which no one accept people who are already paying oracle for them use will cost money
23:41	jk_	dnolen: i doubt it. i was just wondering if it was batted around at all, just to try
23:41	hiredman	parrot is junk
23:41	jk_	hiredman: that's true about oracle but they made short work of opensolaris, for example
23:41	hiredman	right
23:41	hiredman	they just came out and did it
23:42	hiredman	which they haven't down with the jdk
23:42	hiredman	done
23:42	hiredman	in both cases they were very quick to let everyone know their plans
23:42	danlarkin	parrot really is junk (imnsho)
23:42	hiredman	and the plans are different
23:42	dnolen	jk_: I haven't heard much interest in that. LLVM seems more interesting, if it's starting to work for Haskell I don't see why it can't work for Clojure eventually.
23:43	jk_	i don't know much at all about parrot except reading the web site. llvm, parrot, just some free vm
23:43	jk_	free meaning not owned by a large company that can mess with it
23:43	hiredman	clojure's runtime is very thin and there is a big gap between where it stops and what the llvm provides
23:44	hiredman	no
23:44	hiredman	you want a vm that is backed by a large company
23:44	hiredman	to get any kind of decent performance
23:44	dnolen	hiredman: big emphasis on "eventually"
23:45	jk_	hiredman: yes, i understand the point. you just take the risk that they will do something stupid with the platform if you end up competing with that company's own offerings
23:46	hiredman	sun and oracle have invested a lot in hotspot and jrockit
23:47	jk_	Oracle might not really give a crap about anyone but the Fortune 500's buying their server side jvm though
23:48	jk_	the sun luminaries are abandoning oracle
23:48	jk_	because oracle doesn't listen to them
23:49	danlarkin	jk_: you've spoken to them, have you?
23:49	hiredman	and nukes could fall on washington tomorrow
23:49	jk_	no i read their own words from interview
23:49	jk_	you can do the same
23:49	jk_	just google and read
23:49	danlarkin	I was trying on my curmudgeon hat
23:49	hiredman	http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/11/oracles_jvm_strategy.html
23:49	jk_	it's a little lopsided :)
23:51	dnolen	jk_: in anycase, I don't think Clojurians care that much. The JVM is solid tech and it ain't going anywhere anytime soon. I mean many Java apps are stuck to JDK 1.5 (2004)! including Clojure.
23:51	jk_	hiredman: apache harmony was to the the open, unencumbered implementation with nothing proprietary in it.
23:51	jk_	oracle effectively ended that by pulling ibm along with them
23:52	hiredman	jk_: shrug sun was ignoring harmony for many years before oracle came along
23:52	technomancy	clojurebot: oracle?
23:52	clojurebot	The sky is falling!
23:52	technomancy	~botsnack
23:52	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
23:52	jk_	lol
23:52	hiredman	suddenly oracle buys sun, then sun did no wrong, poor sun that had the misfortune of not making enough money and having to be sold
23:53	danlarkin	absolute worst case scenario is oracle discontinues all jvm development. So we're stuck with OpenJDK on java 6. When you think about it, that isn't actually all that bad
23:53	jk_	nobody believes sun did no wrong. sun was the one who was denying certification to apache
23:53	hiredman	right
23:53	jk_	but ibm agreed to leave it because they will get more power in the jcp, supposedly
23:53	hiredman	so really the situation has not changed on that front one bit
23:53	jk_	from what i read anyway
23:54	hiredman	you've asked ibm?
23:54	technomancy	what's changed is patent aggression
23:54	danlarkin	I'm with hiredman, it's just a bunch of talking heads trying to earn their keep selling pageviews
23:54	jk_	i just see that as an isolation strategy by oracle. no, there were a lot of articles about just that
23:54	technomancy	with Sun in charge you could have forked openJDK without having to flee the US
23:54	jk_	danlarkin: that might be true, and i certainly hope it is
23:55	hiredman	danlarkin: and spaming anything remotely interesting off of progreddit
23:55	technomancy	but forking openjdk was never really very appealing unless you were google anyway
23:55	jk_	i sure don't want anything to happen to diminish clojure, scala or any other such developments
23:55	hiredman	technomancy: well, apparently it didn't appeal to google either
23:56	hiredman	since they didn't
23:56	technomancy	hiredman: exactly
23:56	technomancy	but they were the only ones who could have
23:56	jk_	google was playing a different game though. they didn't want to dump an entire jvm into a phone
23:56	hiredman	I wish they had, then maybe you could get a phone with a real jvm on it
23:57	seancorfield	i'm amazed at how much airplay this whole oracle/jvm thing gets... :(
23:57	danlarkin	640K of dalvik is enough for anyone
23:57	jk_	seancorfield: it's just that people are nervous about it
23:57	seancorfield	some people are nervous about it :)
23:57	dnolen	jk_: what people are nervous? Certainly not the millions of Java programmers.
23:57	jk_	seancorfield: right :)
23:58	seancorfield	exactly dnolen
23:58	jk_	dnolen: java programmers by and large are just worried about not getting laid off :)
23:58	dnolen	jk_: point is who is nervous? Richard Stallman?
23:59	jk_	dnolen: google is your friend. i'm too lazy to do it for you right now. it's nothing new. it's talked about in the various java blogs and stack overflow, on the scala forums
23:59	jk_	etc
23:59	dnolen	people who iPhones and Androids should be nervous.