#clojure – 2010-10-28

2010-10-28

00:00	defn	^double negative
00:00	defn	shows how smart I am...
00:01	defn	cemerick: have you had a chance to look at cljc?
00:01	replaca	back in the day, I knew a guy who picked which language to build his company around by going to conferences and seeing which group seemed smarter
00:01	defn	replaca: lol that's awesome
00:01	replaca	he picked RoR and has been quite happy with the choice
00:01	defn	what if you just get a bunch of arrogant jerks
00:01	cemerick	defn: Using double negatives is not a contraindicator of intelligence ;-)
00:02	replaca	well, it does depend on how good a judge of people you are
00:02	replaca	his strength was more there than tech, so it was a good call
00:02	cemerick	Arrogance is OK. Jerk is no good. :-)
00:02	cemerick	replaca: getting back to normal yet?
00:02	replaca	but we're better w/o arrogance too
00:03	replaca	no, not really
00:03	defn	cemerick: :) i was wading into uncharted waters with the compiler talk on saturday. my brain is vapor on that subject. lisp in small pieces is slowly making me feel adequate.
00:03	replaca	reminded me of getting home from burning man
00:03	replaca	a long time to readjust
00:03	cemerick	replaca: I was wondering if that tweet was informed by experience. When were you at burning man?
00:03	defn	it's sort of like a religious experience
00:03	replaca	cemerick: how about you?
00:04	defn	like "i've seen clojure you can only hope to imagine."
00:04	cemerick	defn: I've not looked at cljc yet, no. It looks like a formidable piece of work.
00:04	replaca	I've been a whole bunch of times, but only once since kids
00:04	defn	cemerick: yeah i was quite surprised to see it just /pop up/
00:04	defn	that's the sort of thing that sits around for awhile collecting opinion and design
00:05	cemerick	replaca: I almost got into a groove this afternoon. Working on the contrib build stuff has been a good catalyst for restarting things.
00:05	defn	or at least that was my impression of it
00:05	defn	i suppose if someone has vision they ought to just go for it
00:05	dthomas	Hi, is there a way to tell if an object is an instance of an array? Like "x instanceof StackTraceElement[]" in Java?
00:05	defn	dthomas, of Wendy's fame?
00:05	dthomas	Yes. Have you seen our $1 menu? It's dynamite.
00:05	replaca	cemerick: I've been doing some clean up. It's been a big fire drill week at work, but I feel like Neo at the end of the Matrix
00:06	replaca	just looking at the bullets in a very bored way
00:06	dthomas	Also I have been dead for years. I should change my nick to zombiedthomas.
00:06	defn	or rob thomas
00:06	defn	he's /basically/ dead
00:06	technomancy	I've never been one to turn down an offer for discount dynamite from the undead.
00:06	defn	(inc technomancy)
00:06	sexpbot	=> 1
00:07	cemerick	-> (.isArray (class (make-array Object 0)))
00:07	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: ()
00:07	cemerick	uk
00:07	defn	d'oh
00:07	cemerick	dthomas: .isArray will work
00:07	defn	replaca: i did strangeloop and clojureconj in two successive weekends
00:07	defn	my life is in a shambles
00:07	cemerick	yeah, that sounds tough
00:08	dthomas	technomancy: Heh, are you technomancy of swank-clojure fame? I'm actually hacking on that right now.
00:08	replaca	defn: I'm jealous!
00:08	defn	lots of dropped balls as a result
00:08	replaca	I bet
00:08	technomancy	dthomas: any such fame is undeserved; I only maintain it from a distance
00:08	technomancy	love to get patches though
00:08	defn	they'll be back in the air in a few days -- can't go around working all the time, need some hammock time every once and again
00:09	dthomas	cemerick: Yeah, OK, that'll actually work here since it's either going to be an array or not, not varying types of arrays.
00:09	replaca	defn: :)
00:10	cemerick	dthomas: you can use instanceof? as well, if you prefer
00:11	cemerick	bah, instance? I mean
00:11	dthomas	cemerick: What is the second argument? Array?
00:12	cemerick	dthomas: to instance?
00:12	cemerick	-> (instance? (class (make-array Object 0)) (make-array String 0))
00:12	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: ()
00:13	cemerick	sandbox hell :-P
00:13	dthomas	cemerick: Yeah. I don't know how to spell the type.
00:13	cemerick	dthomas: The easiest way is (class (make-array base-type 0))
00:13	dthomas	cemerick: Oh, sorry, thought class was the second arg not the first.
00:14	dthomas	cemerick: OK, that was the trouble I was running in to. I someone using Class/forName with the ugly "[Ljava.lang.StackTraceElement;" name too.
00:14	dthomas	cemerick: Thanks!
00:14	cemerick	that should work, too shrug
00:15	dthomas	It does, but I can't decide what's worse: creating an instance just to get its class or using what looks like an implementation detail to look that class up by name.
00:16	cemerick	Class/forName is definitely not an impl detail :-)
00:16	dthomas	I'm liking (class (make-array base-type 0)) better.
00:16	cemerick	You can stick that in a var and reuse it, thereby avoiding the array creation cost.
00:17	dthomas	cemerick: Certainly not, but the class name of "[Ljava.lang.StackTraceElement;"? I was guessing that was at best how Java serializes the class name, and the serialization format is probably defined along with the language.
00:17	dthomas	cemerick: That class name is for an array of StackTraceElement BTW.
00:17	cemerick	dthomas: yes, that's part of the java language spec
00:17	defn	cemerick: okay to PM you?
00:17	cemerick	defn: indeed, tho I'm off to bed in 5 min :-)
00:33	replaca	cemerick: you're not going to power through for another hour so I can say, "Chas, it's 1:30"? :)
00:36	cemerick	replaca: crap no :-D
00:37	cemerick	I've almost got a normal schedule back down
00:37	cemerick	5:30 – 5:30
00:37	cemerick	It's all hugod's fault that I fell off the wagon tonight. ;-)
00:38	replaca	cemerick: yeah, you really did!
00:39	cemerick	I used to keep such absurd hours. 53 straight, once. Those were the days.
00:39	cemerick	Not.
00:42	replaca	yeah, better to keep a sustainable rhythm
00:42	replaca	cemerick: loved the talk on pallet, btw. really learned a lot there
00:45	cemerick	replaca: Thanks. :-) I hope it was helpful.
00:46	cemerick	I was pretty leery about following up such insightful material with a methods and tools talk.
00:46	cemerick	but, that's my pay grade, as it were.
01:02	Raynes	I'm fixing that damned sandbox tomorrow if it kills me.
01:21	tomoj	pinging solr clojure hackers
01:49	defn	anyone know if stuarthalloway's slides are online?
01:56	_rata_	hi
01:57	amalloy	morning _rata_
01:57	_rata_	hi amalloy
02:12	tomoj	I'm doing sums of a bunch of sparse high-dimensional signed integer vectors
02:12	tomoj	mahout has fast sparse random access vectors, but they only store doubles or floats
02:13	tomoj	would switching to integer math speed those sums up a whole lot?
02:16	amalloy	tomoj: i don't think so
02:17	tomoj	cool
02:18	amalloy	->(dorun (map #(time (dotimes [_ 1e7] (+ % %))) [15 1.5]))
02:18	sexpbot	⟹ "Elapsed time: 166.978 msecs" "Elapsed time: 301.631 msecs" nil
02:19	amalloy	tomoj: so it looks like integers are ~2x as fast
02:19	amalloy	in this wholly unreliable microbenchmark
02:19	tomoj	when i just ran it, I got 3.41x
02:19	tomoj	err
02:20	_rata_	hahahaaha... 2x is a lot though
02:20	amalloy	and on my computer, i get that doubles are 35% faster. like i said, not so reliable
02:20	tomoj	huh, yeah, ran it again and the doubles went faster
02:21	amalloy	tomoj: although type-hinting and/or using primitives may make a bigger difference; i'm hardly a performance expert
02:22	_rata_	is there a function like xor in clojure.core?
02:22	tomoj	well, the choice is, use the fast java stuff written by people way smarter than I (but under the assumption of floats), or write clojure stuff assuming ints
02:22	amalloy	ah
02:23	tomoj	I'll just use the java stuff :)
02:23	_rata_	tomoj, is it important for you the exactness of the result?
02:24	tomoj	no
02:24	_rata_	ok, then use the java stuff :)
02:24	_rata_	or what's the idiomatic/simplest way to write a xor (if I can't think that by myself should be going to sleep)
02:25	_rata_	s/or //
02:25	sexpbot	<_rata_> what's the idiomatic/simplest way to write a x(if I can't think that by myself should be going to sleep)
02:25	_rata_	really should be going to sleep
02:25	_rata_	ok guys... see you tomorrow
02:39	zmyrgel	hi, how can I test if function arg is some record type?
02:40	zmyrgel	so if I have defined (defrecord Node [label children]) I want to be able to tell if fn arg is of that type
02:52	amalloy	->(doc instance?)
02:52	sexpbot	⟹ "([c x]); Evaluates x and tests if it is an instance of the class c. Returns true or false"
02:52	amalloy	zmyrgel: ^^ records are java classes
02:54	zmyrgel	amalloy: ok, thank you
02:56	amalloy	clojuredocs seems to link to nonexistent github pages
03:01	amalloy	specifically, i'm looking at c.contrib.duct-streams/copy, and the Source section links to http://bit.ly/czekSl (shortening mine)
03:02	amalloy	dunno who owns clojuredocs, but i'm off to bed so i'm putting it out there. night, folks
03:27	TobiasRaeder	morning :)
05:43	notsonerdysunny	is file io in clojure basically same as that in java? is there a good place for me to just get started ..?
06:05	raek	notsonerdysunny: yes, with some helper functions
06:05	raek	notsonerdysunny: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.io-api.html is very handy
06:07	raek	lazy sequence of lines in a file (line-seq (io/reader "filename"))
06:08	raek	c.j.io/reader works with URLs too
06:12	notsonerdysunny	raek: I am not used to java io .. ..
06:12	notsonerdysunny	thanks for the pointers
06:18	raek	crash course: {File "a path to a file", #{InputStream OutputStream} "byte-oriented stream (use these for binary data)", #{Reader Writer} "character-oriented stream (use these for text)"}
06:24	notsonerdysunny	thanks raek .. ..
06:26	notsonerdysunny	what is this parent child thing in the documentation of io/file ?
06:27	notsonerdysunny	,(doc 'clojure.java.io)
06:27	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
06:27	notsonerdysunny	->(doc 'clojure.java.io)
06:27	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: (clojure.java.io)
06:27	notsonerdysunny	~(doc 'clojure.java.io)
06:27	clojurebot	the doctor is out
06:29	raek	,(clojure.java.io/file "foo" "bar")
06:29	clojurebot	#<File foo/bar>
06:29	raek	allows you to build paths in a platform independent manner
06:29	raek	also:
06:31	raek	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/package-summary.html <-- javadoc for the classes in java.io (if you have to call the methods directly, which you might need some times)
06:31	raek	clojure's reader and writer returns BufferedReader (which has the readLine method) and BufferedWriter
06:33	raek	notsonerdysunny: unfortunately, you cannot use doc to lookup docs on namespaces...
06:33	notsonerdysunny	raek: i just realized that .. :)
06:33	raek	also, it is a macro, so you don't quote the argument
06:36	notsonerdysunny	->(clojure.java.io/file "hello" "world" "in" "clojure")
06:36	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: (#'clojure.java.io/file)
06:53	notsonerdysunny	what is clojure.core/read ? I it the one that understands all the clojure-datastructures and creates the data-structure for eval to evaluate?
06:53	notsonerdysunny	*Is it
06:54	raek	yes
06:55	raek	what kind of io are you doing?
06:55	notsonerdysunny	raek .. I am considering using a s-exp like file format .. I feel that would be very easy to read...
06:56	notsonerdysunny	and load the data in
06:56	raek	if you use the Clojure reader, it's very easy
06:57	notsonerdysunny	suppose my file "inp.txt" has "(+ 1 2)" .. how would I use read to read it in?
06:58	raek	(require '[clojure.java.io :as io]) (import 'java.io.PushBackReader)
06:58	raek	(with-open [r (PushBackReader. (io/reader "inp.txt"))] (read r))
07:02	raek	the opposite of read is pr, btw
07:02	notsonerdysunny	raek .. I am getting java.io.PushBackReader class not found exception .. do i need to do anything special?
07:03	raek	oh, sorry for that... the B should be lowercase
07:03	raek	java.io.PushbackReader
07:03	raek	no, you shouldn't need anything special
07:04	notsonerdysunny	thanks raek .. it works so beautifully .. reading couldn't have been easier
07:28	Bootvis	hi I have this string: ". 17,00" (in my client I see a dot, it's a euro sign in some charset). What is the best way to parse this to a number?
07:34	raek	,(when-let [[_ euros cents] (re-find #"\u20ac\s+(\d+)[,.](\d+)" "\u20ac 17,01")] (+ (Integer/parseInt euros) (/ (Integer/parseInt cents) 100)))
07:34	clojurebot	1701/100
07:34	raek	dunno if this is the _best_ way...
07:36	raek	,(when-let [[_ euros cents] (re-find #"\u20ac\s+(\d+)[,.](\d+)" "\u20ac 17,01")] (+ (Integer/parseInt euros) (/ (Integer/parseInt cents) 100M)))
07:36	clojurebot	17.01M
07:36	raek	(BigDecimal version)
07:37	Tordmor	Now again with propper locale support :)
07:37	raek	sigh :)
07:38	raek	at least I made it parse both strings with commas and points...
07:39	Bootvis	thanks
07:42	Bootvis	,"."
07:42	clojurebot	"."
07:46	Bootvis	thanks raek, your code works great outside of SLIME
07:47	raek	Bootvis: as far as I can tell, my IRC client receives that character as an ASCII full stop
07:48	raek	Bootvis: note that slime's default encoding is latin1, which does not inlcude the uro character
07:48	raek	*euro
07:48	raek	you can configure slime and swank to use UTF-8. then you can use all unicode characters
07:50	Bootvis	ok, i'll google that
07:51	raek	I have this in my .emacs: (custom-set-variables '(slime-net-coding-system (quote utf-8-unix)))
07:53	raek	and you can start swank this way: lein swank 4005 ':encoding' '"UTF-8"'
07:53	raek	hrm, that doesn't seem to work anymore...
07:57	raek	ah, found it...
07:57	raek	lein swank 4005 localhost ':encoding' '"UTF-8"'
07:59	AWizzArd	Chousuke: ping
08:01	Bootvis	this works!
08:02	Bootvis	I also set the encoding following advice from leonel on http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3101279/how-do-i-use-unicode-utf-8-characters-in-clojure-regular-expressions
08:05	raek	ah, yes. when you save that, you will get what I wrote before in your .emacs file... anyway, you still need to tell swank to use that encoding too
08:08	raek	to test that all encoding stuff works, you can try to eval (seq "日本語") at the repl. if everything works correctly, you should get a sequence of three characters: (\日 \本 \語)
08:08	Bootvis	yes I noticed, this should be documented somewhere...
08:09	raek	I could add some instructions too http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs
08:09	Bootvis	it needs further work then, I'm getting 6 chars back
08:09	Bootvis	but that could be an irssi thing
08:10	AWizzArd	~seen Chousuke
08:10	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
08:10	AWizzArd	$seen Chousuke
08:10	sexpbot	Chousuke was last seen talking on #clojure 1 day, 1 hour ago.
08:11	raek	Bootvis: have you restarted the slime session (or emacs)?
08:12	raek	also, note that lein repl uses JLine, which does not support UTF-8 at all (in case you were trying this there)
08:12	Bootvis	yes
08:13	Bootvis	restarted emacs
08:13	Bootvis	and lein swank ... from a shell
08:14	hiredman	JAVA_OPTS=-Dswank.encoding=utf8 -Dfile.encoding=utf8
08:14	hiredman	then there are emacs settings which I don't recall off the top of my head
08:16	raek	ah, is that how you set java system properties?
08:17	raek	Bootvis: do you happen to run emacs in a terminal? if so, you have to configure teh coding of the terminal as well.
08:21	Tordmor	,(let [nf (java.text.NumberFormat/getInstance java.util.Locale/GERMANY)] (.parse nf "17,01"))
08:21	clojurebot	17.01
08:21	Tordmor	,(let [nf (java.text.NumberFormat/getCurrencyInstance java.util.Locale/GERMANY)] (.parse nf "17,01"))
08:21	clojurebot	java.text.ParseException: Unparseable number: "17,01"
08:21	Tordmor	:(
08:33	Bootvis	raek: no and it stil fails your 3-char test
08:33	Bootvis	I blame irssi
08:34	kumarshantanu	Tordmor: that's strange
08:34	kumarshantanu	because getInstance and getCurrencyInstance and supposed to behave the same
08:36	raek	Bootvis: what happens when you eval "\u65e5\u672c\uu8a9e" and (seq "\u65e5\u672c\uu8a9e") ?
08:36	raek	sorry... \u65e5\u672c\u8a9e
08:37	Bootvis	it returns \.
08:38	Bootvis	with . a character
08:38	Bootvis	from japan i guess
08:39	Bootvis	the seq returns three chars
08:39	Bootvis	and the last matches the output of the first
08:43	Tordmor	kumarshantanu: yea, that's what I thought
08:46	kumarshantanu	Tordmor: can you try this on another JDK? maybe IBM?
08:47	kumarshantanu	Tordmor: can you try this on another JDK? maybe IBM?
08:47	raek	Bootvis: what settings were save to your .emacs?
08:47	Tordmor	kumarshantanu: getCurrencyInstance needs currency format to parse it with the currency symbol at the end
08:48	kumarshantanu	ah!
08:48	Tordmor	It's obvious when you think about it :)
08:48	Bootvis	(custom-set-variables '(slime-net-coding-system (quote utf-8-unix)))
08:49	kumarshantanu	Tordmor: but the Javadoc says both methods are the same
08:50	Tordmor	:/ k, that's a bug
08:51	kumarshantanu	yeah, even though the behaviour is logical, I would consider the Javadoc a spec
09:01	djpowell	did accounts get copied across from assembla then?
09:02	Bahman	Hi all!
09:02	bmh	does anyone have experience deploying clojure apps with Java Webstart?
09:03	djpowell	not tried it, but I'd think it'ld work. I've even deployed native code using webstart before
09:05	djpowell	well - by deployed, I really mean: wrote an helloworld-ish demo
09:05	bmh	heh
09:08	djpowell	if you aot compile, then clojure applets work
09:10	hoeck	bmh: it works with aot-compiled code as it would do with java
09:10	hoeck	bmh: to be able to load and eval *.clj files in an applet, you have to sign it and patch a line in the clojure sources
09:10	bmh	hm
09:12	hoeck	bmh: as an example, see http://www.turbojugend-cossebaude.de/demo.html, a small project of mine, it uses clj-pivot for its gui
09:12	hoeck	quite large and takes ages to load, and doesn't work on my ubuntu box, only on windows :/
09:12	hoeck	but the webstart works on both systems
09:16	jwr7	clojure.contrib.json is broken, I've reported the bug, and I have a fix (and a signed CA). How do I submit the fix?
09:18	bmh	hoeck: dies on my OSX box too
09:18	chouser	jwr7: you attached the patch to the ticket?
09:18	raek	jwr7: clojure.org/patches <-- the official procedure
09:20	jwr7	raek: Hmm. The ticket was opened by my colleague. I don't think I'm able to edit the ticket or attach anything — does someone need to add me as a contributor for this to happen?
09:21	jwr7	btw, this is #98 in clojure contrib in assembla
09:21	hoeck	bmh: yeah, I gave up because I did not find a way to grab the java console :/
09:21	raek	jwr7: yes. when you're logged in, does it say watcher or member at the top right corner
09:21	hoeck	bmh: http://www.turbojugend-cossebaude.de/demo.jnlp <-- this is the webstart version, should work
09:22	jwr7	Well, I'm a watcher, then. Which is suboptimal.
09:22	hiredman	assembla is toast
09:23	chouser	jwr7: the initial friction on this kind of thing is too high, but it's getting changed.
09:23	chouser	jwr7: and the new way hasn't settled in yet, being ~1 day old
09:23	hiredman	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/b7090cff317a47db?hl=en
09:24	jwr7	chouser: ok :-) But I'm really interested in getting this fix in, as clojure.contrib.json is currently broken, and I need it because it is way faster than org.danlarkin.json. Any suggested next steps?
09:24	chouser	hopefully once it has settled in, the friction (especially for contrib) will be significantly lower.
09:24	chouser	jwr7: what's the aseembla ticket number?
09:24	jwr7	chouser: 98
09:26	bmh	hoeck: thanks. neat. I'm working on some roleplaying software and I'd like to deploy as a webstart app
09:26	jwr7	chouser: the fix is simple and I have it sitting right in front of me. Keys need to be properly escaped, (as-str) won't do.
09:26	tonyl	morning
09:28	chouser	oh, is contrib assembla not moved over to jira yet?
09:29	jwr7	chouser: it seems so. I think the process is halfway done (clojure has migrated, but clojure-contrib has not)
09:32	chouser	jwr7: well, drat, you might just have to be patient. I think the best you can do right now is to ask for your assembla account to get bumped
09:32	chouser	...and use your own patched version for now.
09:33	stuartsierra	Would it be fair to say that Clojure was the first language to implement something like Protocols on a mainstream platform (JVM) ?
09:33	chouser	I can't change your assembla status, nor can I apply a patch unless it's been submitted through an "official channel" like assembla, for legal reasons.
09:34	chouser	stuartsierra: depends on how narrowly you mean "like protocols" I suppose.
09:34	jwr7	chouser: right... I'll send an E-mail to Rich, then (I'm assuming he's the one to change my status). I want to make sure this fix goes in as soon as possible, it's rather important for anyone who uses c.c.json.
09:34	chouser	scala had traits (or whatever their equiv is) first
09:34	stuartsierra	Don't traits use wrapper classes?
09:35	chouser	Hm, I don't know.
09:36	chouser	The Expression Problem in Scala
09:36	chouser	"
09:42	chouser	ugh. more than five-minutes work to understand all that.
09:45	stuartsierra	If I recall, Scala Traits can't be applied to existing classes, e.g. String.
09:46	hiredman	they have implicit conversions
09:47	stuartsierra	Right, which does use wrappers.
09:47	hiredman	and there own string class
09:47	hiredman	their
09:47	chouser	"I know, I'll use traits!" ...and now you have 3 problems
09:48	hiredman	it's not a "wrapper" it's take this thing and make it into another thing
09:48	stuartsierra	I'm writing about Protocols, want to make sure to describe how they're different from Traits.
09:50	chouser	I don't think I even understood traits well enough to help. sorry.
09:50	stuartsierra	no worries
09:51	chouser	s/even/ever/
09:52	bobo_	scala people like to compare traits to mixins in ruby atleast
09:52	bobo_	or "interfaces with implementation"
09:53	fogus_	"I know, I'll use implicits!" ... the good part is that you have no idea when you have a problem.
09:53	hiredman	clojurebot: tell me about scala
09:53	clojurebot	the scala compiler \| is \| <reply> see: http://harrah.github.com/browse/samples/compiler/scala/tools/nsc/typechecker/ConstantFolder.scala.html#65760
09:55	stuartsierra	heh
09:55	stuartsierra	glass houses...
09:57	spicycode	stuarsierra: ....?
10:00	stuartsierra	spicycode: I'm sure the Clojure compiler has ugly bits too.
10:00	spicycode	stuartsierra: roger that, we were digging through the asm bits last night
10:01	stuartsierra	compilers are like sausage grinders: if you saw the process, you wouldn't eat the result
10:02	fogus_	stuartsierra: WRT being first. I would consider that maybe ABCL was first.
10:06	hiredman	well the clojure compiler doesn't have incriminating comments
10:06	hiredman	(or any)
10:07	fogus_	Seems to go against the virtues of static checking to defer your crashes until runtim!
10:07	fogus_	runtime even
10:07	hiredman	sure
10:13	nDuff	Did the proposal to implement a clojure-version global ever happen?
10:14	technomancy	,clojure-version
10:14	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier ""}
10:15	nDuff	oops -- I was trying to check clojure-version
10:16	stuartsierra	At what point does a Protocol function look up an implementation in its internal map?
10:18	notsonerdysunny	I am new to java/clojure io .. raek say I could read a s-exp file with (with-open [r (PushbackReader. (io/reader "project.clj"))] (read r)) .. and it worked very well .. now I would like to be able to write it .. and he mentioned that I use pr .. but can somebody help me with the complete expression?
10:22	notsonerdysunny	,(doc pr)
10:22	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & more]); Prints the object(s) to the output stream that is the current value of out. Prints the object(s), separated by spaces if there is more than one. By default, pr and prn print i...
10:51	notsonerdysunny	how do I write the value contained in a symbol p to a file "out.txt"
10:52	replaca	(spit "out.txt" (println p))
10:53	chouser	I don't think so
10:53	replaca	oh wait
10:54	replaca	(spit (java.io.File. "out.txt") (println p))
10:54	replaca	chouser: better?
10:54	chouser	doubt it :-)
10:54	Tordmor	top hit on google for "clojure io": (binding [out (java.io.FileWriter. "some.dat")] (prn {:a :b :c :d}))
10:56	gary_poster	I don't understand something a bit fundamental. Given ``(defn f [x y z & args] (apply (fn [& a] a) x y z args))`` and ``(f 1 2 3 4 5)`` I'd expect the result ``(1 2 3 (4 5))``. Instead, you get ``(1 2 3 4 5)``. Many built in functions rely on this. Can somebody clarify what I'm missing?
10:56	chouser	(spit "/tmp/foo.txt" (prn-str p))
10:57	fliebel	gary_poster: the latest arg of eval takes a seq.
10:57	fliebel	*apply
10:57	replaca	chouser: why prn-str instead of println?
10:57	chouser	println prints to out and returns nil
10:57	replaca	unless you're looking for readability?
10:57	fliebel	Is there still any use for clojure.contrib.generic.arithmetic, or can this stuff be handled by extend-type?
10:57	replaca	oh, of course
10:58	gary_poster	fliebel: ah, got it, thanks
10:58	fliebel	Or in other words, can I use extend-type to make + support other types of objects?
10:58	chouser	replaca: :-)
10:59	stuartsierra	fliebel: not at present
10:59	fliebel	stuartsierra: Why not? It's only for interfaces or something like that?
10:59	stuartsierra	1) Protocols only support single-argument dispatch, although this can be extended to multiple arguments.
11:00	stuartsierra	2) Clojure's arithmetic operations are not defined in terms of interfaces or Protocols
11:00	stuartsierra	for efficiency, although the compiler may support it someday
11:00	stuartsierra	but if you're doing serious math, you wouldn't want the performance hit of multimethods anyway
11:01	notsonerdysunny	thanks chouser and replaca .. it worked .. :)
11:01	fliebel	Cool, thanks! I think Overtone is using a good deal of multimethod magic for working with ugens. I thought I'd have a look at the extend-type thing.
11:04	stuartsierra	Ages ago, I posted an example of multiple-argument dispatch with protocols http://paste.lisp.org/display/93387
11:06	chouser	stuartsierra: all your old code feels differents to me now that I imagine you writing it with blue hair (though I reliaze your hair may not have been blue at the time)
11:06	stuartsierra	I tend to have blue hair in the Fall, so you can interpolate on that.
11:11	pdlogan	I love fall colors.
11:11	pdlogan	don't see a lot of blue in the PNW though
11:12	fliebel	pdlogan: Yea, you should make fall-chemed-rainbow parens for your editor.
11:12	fliebel	*themed
11:27	jcromartie	Well this makes me that much more reluctant to go with CouchDB http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Installing_on_Windows
11:27	jcromartie	anyway
11:28	jcromartie	NoSQL is so tempting but choosing Clojure is enough of a risk I wonder what the value is
11:28	cemerick	jcromartie: No need to build it: http://www.couch.io/get#win
11:28	jcromartie	oh, I should check the date on those wiki pages
11:28	jcromartie	I get the feeling that Couch is more mature, but I know Mongo is popular with Clojure
11:29	cemerick	yeah, both are used a fair bit
11:30	cemerick	I don't know if it makes sense to speculate on relative usage.
11:30	jcromartie	yeah I guess so
11:31	jcromartie	I am trying to weigh the tradeoffs... JavaDB/Derby is appealing too, since I could basically have a single Jarfile for small demo/testing deployments
11:31	cemerick	AFAIK, couch has been around for far longer, and the basis for it is pretty hard to argue with from a reliability standpoint (i.e. the legacy of notes, etc)
11:31	jcromartie	yeah, just being written in Erlang wins there
11:31	cemerick	A Clojure impl of couchdb would be interesting, actually.
11:32	jcromartie	we are looking at building a new version of our company's main product, and it seems like a good candidate for a document store
11:32	jcromartie_	our data is very self-contained and denormalized
11:32	jcromartie_	each record is really kind of an island
11:33	jcromartie_	a very large island
11:33	jcromartie_	with an airport
11:33	jcromartie_	anyway
11:33	hiredman	mongo is popular with clojure?
11:34	cemerick	people have said they use it, sure
11:35	jcromartie_	I thought it had a bit more traction and adapter projects
11:35	jcromartie_	:)
11:35	jcromartie_	I guess saying anything is "popular" within the clojure community is kind of relative
11:35	stuartsierra	Parentheses are popular within the Clojure comumnity.
11:36	technomancy	I heard mongo supports sharding
11:36	apgwoz	cemerick: A Clojure impl of _____ would be interesting, actually. (applies for most values of _____)
11:36	nDuff	whereas CouchDB uses MVCC
11:36	nDuff	and of course everyone here loves MVCC :)
11:36	apgwoz	mongo has concurrency semantics?
11:36	nDuff	well, that's the question
11:36	apgwoz	it's event-driven
11:37	cemerick	apgwoz: eh, almost ;-)
11:37	cemerick	(re: the adlib bit)
11:37	LOPP	what's the easiest way to make a servlet in clojure
11:37	apgwoz	cemerick: yeah, i got that :)
11:37	cemerick	Couch's semantics are simple enough that it's a reasonable small project though.
11:38	cemerick	Reimplement mongo in Clojure? No thanks.
11:38	fliebel	LOPP: The ring servlet adapter.
11:38	fliebel	There is FleetDB, which is written in Clojure :)
11:38	apgwoz	cemerick: this is all true.
11:39	cemerick	fliebel: in-memory stores aren't super useful for me :-)
11:40	apgwoz	cemerick: so, add write ahead logging :)
11:40	cemerick	it does persist things eventually, no?
11:40	cemerick	apgwoz: I assumed it was redis-esque (dataset cannot be larger than available memory)?
11:41	apgwoz	cemerick: i don't know. but it does have logging, so my statement before doesn't make sense
11:41	replaca	chouser: no that I've had my coffee, is there any difference between: (spit "out.txt" (prn-str p)) and (spit "out.txt" p)?
11:41	replaca	A quick experiment says no
11:41	stuartsierra	only if p is as tring
11:41	stuartsierra	* a string
11:42	apgwoz	cemerick: i think you're write, the persistence is meant for restarts, but not for unbounded databases
11:42	replaca	well I get teh same result when I pass it a vector of numbers
11:42	apgwoz	cemerick: (based on my quick look of the documentation..)
11:43	stuartsierra	replaca: because pr-str and str of a vector of numbers happen to look the same
11:43	replaca	what are they different for?
11:44	replaca	(oh, in my example they differ by a trailing newline, too)
11:44	stuartsierra	"pr" and "pr-str" attempt to reformat their argument so it can be read back
11:44	stuartsierra	"print" and "str" produce strings for human consumption
11:45	replaca	stuartsierra: ah, so readability, ok
11:45	stuartsierra	,(str "foo")
11:45	clojurebot	"foo"
11:45	stuartsierra	,(pr-str "foo")
11:45	clojurebot	"\"foo\""
11:45	replaca	yup, gotchya.
11:46	replaca	so, print is to str as pr is to pr-str?
11:46	replaca	no, but print-str exists too
11:46	stuartsierra	yes
11:47	stuartsierra	print-str will insert spaces between its arguments the same way print does
11:47	stuartsierra	,(print-str 1 2 3)
11:47	clojurebot	"1 2 3"
11:47	stuartsierra	,(str 1 2 3)
11:47	clojurebot	"123"
11:48	replaca	oh, right. I never thought very hard about all these subtle points until this morning
11:48	vibrant	<- reading 'the joy of clojure'
11:49	replaca	(plus I always use cl-format cause I know what it does :))
11:52	muhdik	closure looks weird
11:53	muhdik	i mean does it look ugly?
11:55	replaca	muhdik: What you're not used to looks weird and ugly. Most of us that have used Clojure for a while think it's baeutiful compared to C/Java syntax
11:55	replaca	muhdik: but in the end, it's a matter of taste
11:56	technomancy	replaca: closure is a javascript library =P
11:56	technomancy	so the correct answer is "yes"
11:57	replaca	technomancy: oh, good reading. I was conflating that Q with the "JoC" statement above.
11:57	replaca	I'm sure glad I'm not taking the SATs this morning!
11:58	vibrant	hehe
11:58	muhdik	oh ok
11:58	technomancy	I don't know if that's what he meant, but it's what he asked
11:58	muhdik	i mean doesnt it have too many ))))))
12:00	technomancy	sure, just like Mozart has "too many notes" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU
12:01	quoll	it has no more than other languages (like Java), but the syntax often leads to closing parens all appearing together
12:02	vibrant	death to java!
12:02	muhdik	why u say death to java?
12:02	nDuff	"meh" to java!
12:03	muhdik	i thought clojure came from java?
12:03	muhdik	i hate java personally
12:03	jcromartie	Java is Clojure's C
12:03	jcromartie	don't knock it
12:03	muhdik	did all the cool java kids go to ruby and clojure?
12:04	muhdik	cause i dont think java is cool anymore
12:04	muhdik	since oracle took over
12:04	nDuff	there are too many things called "Java" to have that discussion without more clarity
12:05	quoll	it reads like muhdik is talking about Java-the-language
12:05	muhdik	i mean
12:05	muhdik	java
12:05	nDuff	it's specifically Java-the-language I was referring to, and its issues as a language are quite separate from ownership concerns.
12:05	muhdik	j2ee
12:05	muhdik	ejb
12:06	muhdik	u know
12:06	nDuff	muhdik, ...so it's more the standard-library set than the language itself?
12:06	muhdik	i mean the whole java package
12:07	nDuff	well, that's the thing -- "the whole Java package" is too many things to talk about cogently; the components are worthy of their own opinions.
12:07	muhdik	i mean
12:07	muhdik	sun had this whole website devoted to java crap
12:07	muhdik	that was the worst
12:07	muhdik	and tried to make something like msdn for java
12:08	muhdik	im talkin bout all the stuff in that
12:08	muhdik	like i mean
12:08	muhdik	now kids are doing ruby clojure and node.js
12:09	ubii	one does not necessarily need to be coffee drinker to partake of clojure, but one should at least appreciate the efforts of all of those bean pickers :)
12:09	muhdik	and java has been pretty much eclipsed
12:09	muhdik	and about node.js
12:10	LOPP	java is just failing to evolve as a language
12:10	LOPP	all they do is add some more libraries to JRE each version
12:11	chouser	and it's design goals never lined up very well with my desires. I was never Java's target audience. Hard to blame it for that.
12:11	muhdik	well whats the difference between clojure and scala then
12:11	LOPP	java isn't dying out any time soon, too much server side software is running on java
12:11	Scriptor	I've heard what clojure really needs to expand to non-jvm platforms is for it to be completely self-hosting, is that true?
12:12	muhdik	i mean
12:12	muhdik	arent they both functional java?
12:12	jcromartie	Java and the JVM are just simple stable and fast, and very widespread and mature, and with a huge set of available libraries to do pretty much anything you want.
12:12	jcromartie	That's why I'm not that excited about CinC
12:12	chouser	Scriptor: that would be the route of least total work. But various versions of Clojure have already been ported to CLR, JavaScript, and I think flash.
12:12	jcromartie	because the interop with the platform is what makes Clojure so useful
12:12	jcromartie	for just getting stuff done
12:13	Scriptor	hmm, anything going on for the LLVM?
12:13	technomancy	jcromartie: cinc also means having a compiler that is comprehensible by more than just rich, even staying on the jvm
12:13	chouser	Scriptor: not yet, that I know of.
12:14	Scriptor	hmm, wish I knew C++ (or clojure for that matter)
12:14	jcromartie	technomancy: I see :)
12:16	ubii	just curious, how much interest and effort is currently being put towards CinC?
12:16	chouser	most of it
12:16	cemerick	heh
12:17	jcromartie	where "it" is the interest and effort of clojure core?
12:17	cemerick	chouser: how much (if at all) have you looked at cljc?
12:18	chouser	cemerick: only saw it was there. do we know who jarpiain is?
12:18	chouser	I do intend to read through the code.
12:22	cemerick	No idea. I've only perused it for a few minutes myself. At the very least, it seems like we should give him a holler.
12:23	chouser	yeah. I've got a small but growing list of people who may actually be willing to chip in on the compiler work.
12:24	LOPP	do you screen these people?
12:24	chouser	we can't use his code at all without a CA of course
12:25	chouser	I screen nobody
12:25	LOPP	ok
12:25	ubii	chouser: CA?
12:26	chouser	ubii: http://clojure.org/contributing Contributor Agreement
12:26	ubii	chouser: ah, thx
12:26	cemerick	LOPP: we're working on a Clojure Contributor Certification Exam.
12:27	chouser	sheesh
12:27	cemerick	lol
12:27	cemerick	LOPP: sorry, had to do it ;-)
12:27	Raynes	:o
12:27	chouser	if your code makes rhickey show the Sign of the Cross to ward you away, then ... you're in the same boat as the rest of us.
12:28	cemerick	chouser: c'mon, those Cisco certification exam books are huge money! :-P
12:29	ubii	tell me about it, I have too many of them sitting on my shelves
12:29	chouser	cemerick: ruby drama link?
12:32	cemerick	chouser: oy. http://oppugn.us/posts/1282122987.html
12:33	apgwoz	cemerick: you're forgetting that there's drama whenever you mention the name Zed Shaw
12:34	cemerick	I've no idea who the jets and the sharks are in that world.
12:34	ubii	Zed is the man, I met him at RubyFringe in Toronto, super nice guy in person
12:34	technomancy	he's just trying to be bad and nationwide
12:36	hsuh	is a jetty+ring+compojure app single-threaded?
12:38	cemerick	hsuh: no, jetty manages the concurrency in that realm. Each request is single-threaded, though.
12:39	jwr7	…which reminds me I need to find out how to change the threading model that jetty uses. I think there are several.
12:40	hsuh	where can i read more about that? like "the life of a request" or something
12:40	cemerick	hsuh: There are slight variations from container to container, but any search for "servlet lifecycle" will probably lead you to the right spot.
12:41	hsuh	tks
12:41	hsuh	and from that to clojure code is just a function call, no thread involved
12:44	cemerick	right
12:52	quoll	does anyone know how I can make a binding work down in "map"?
12:53	quoll	or, more precisely, how a (binding....) can be recognized by the function being supplied to (map .....)
12:54	fliebel	quoll: Oh, I can't remember… Someone recently blogged about this.
12:54	quoll	Hmmm, OK. I'll search then
12:54	chouser	quoll: simplest solution is to wrap (doall ...) around your (map ...)
12:54	chouser	quoll: but it's worth understanding what's going on there.
12:54	quoll	well, I'm guessing that map is creating a new thread
12:54	amalloy	chouser: dorun works too, doesn't it? if so it's more useful
12:55	quoll	if I replace map with my own implementation, then it works as expected
12:55	chouser	dorun returns nil
12:55	fliebel	chouser: Is laziness killing it because the closure doesn't pick up the binding? Or what?
12:55	quoll	for instance: (defn mymap [f s] (if (nil? (first s)) s (cons (f (first s)) (mymap f (rest s)))))
12:55	quoll	that keeps the binding just fine
12:56	chouser	quoll: right, because that's not lazy
12:56	quoll	yup
12:56	chouser	remember, 'binding' is dynamic scope, not lexical
12:56	quoll	let me try it lazily
12:56	chouser	the fact that your map call is lexically inside 'binding' doesn't really matter at all
12:57	quoll	unfortunately, I don't really understand the distinction
12:57	chouser	any elements of your lazy seq that are realized outside the dynamic scope of the binding will the vars values from outside the binding
12:57	chouser	will see
12:58	quoll	I'm pretty sure I understand that
12:59	fliebel	Oh, I'm going to work out some evil things...
12:59	quoll	but I also know that I don't quite get it, since I don't see how lazy ends up being different
12:59	LOPP	lexical binding = where in code your stuff is
12:59	pdlogan	quoll: another way to visualize "dynamic binding" is that it does not look at the text of your code for a binding. It looks "up the call stack" for a binding.
12:59	LOPP	dynamical binding = where in call stack your stuff is
12:59	pdlogan	jinx
13:01	quoll	pdlogan: that was what I thought was happening. I couldn't figure out a way to avoid that though (while staying lazy)
13:03	quoll	so to be sure I have it..... by the time I'm trying to access the lazy-seq, I'm out of scope of the binding, so I get whatever binding is currently in place at that point
13:03	quoll	is that it?
13:03	pdlogan	quoll: not sure that you can - it's not like a lexical closure which has captured an environment
13:03	chouser	quoll: if you want to stay lazy, look at bound-fn
13:04	quoll	well, in this case I don't HAVE to stay lazy. I just like to whenever possible :-)
13:04	pdlogan	it's generally better not to be dynamic than not to be lazy
13:04	quoll	my point is.... is the lazy sequence picking up the binding of the value when I access the sequence, as opposed to when the sequence was created?
13:06	quoll	chouser: btw, bound-fn looks to be useful. Thanks.
13:06	pdlogan	quoll: generalizing laziness --- consider any function that references a dynamic value will get that value as of it's nearest binding in the call stack.
13:06	quoll	I'll go with non-lazy this time. I just wanted to understand what was happening
13:07	quoll	pdlogan: do you mean the "current call stack"? As in, when the lazy value is accessed
13:07	quoll	as opposed to when the lazy structure was created
13:07	pdlogan	yes - "dynamic" --> "runtime call stack for the current thread"
13:07	JamesIry	A dynamically bound symbol (logically) searches back through the call stack at the moment of evaluation to find its meaning.
13:08	JamesIry	Although in practice that's now how they're typically implemented
13:08	quoll	OK, I get it then. Thanks for the elucidation
13:10	fliebel	,(def s (repeat 1))
13:10	clojurebot	DENIED
13:11	fliebel	Guess what this returns: (take 2 (binding [s (repeat 2)] (cons (first s) (lazy-seq s))))
13:12	raek	(2 1)?
13:12	fliebel	yea :)
13:13	chaslemley	Hey folks, I just put up a templating engine for clojure on github http://github.com/chaslemley/slim.clj check it out if you need to render html, xml from compojure or any other framework
13:13	fliebel	First time I managed to write some sort of obfuscated Clojure :)
13:13	raek	is it true that rich is rethinking binding?
13:14	AWizzArd	raek: it is already happening
13:14	raek	nice. good.
13:14	AWizzArd	just download Clojure 1.3 α2
13:15	fliebel	Anyone knows what's up with the mysterious "improved stacktraces"?
13:15	chouser	mysterious? (pst)
13:16	fliebel	chouser: Yea, in the message he mentioned them, but I can;t find what's improved. disclaimer: I havn't tested any of the alphas.
13:17	AWizzArd	Anyone here from Finland?
13:18	Chousuke	o/
13:18	AWizzArd	aah, wb
13:18	AWizzArd	Chousuke: please look into your private
13:19	pyrtsa	o/
13:34	@rhickey	chouser: it was just an X
13:37	chouser	rhickey: ha! oh, ok.
13:37	@rhickey	you're not vampires, are you?
13:38	chouser	sucking your life's work dry of it's simplicity?
13:38	chouser	its
13:39	chouser	rhickey: have you seen http://github.com/jarpiain/cljc ?
13:41	chouser	the author has clearly put a lot of effort into it, including reimplementing bytecode generation to avoid depending on ASM
13:42	@rhickey	never saw it
13:42	@rhickey	bytecode gen w/o ASM seems needless wheel reinventing
13:46	AWizzArd	Will (char 65) return on all JVMs on all OSes always \A ?
13:47	cemerick	unless there's one that's using ebcdic…
13:47	AWizzArd	where is the encoding set which determins what char returns?
13:47	cemerick	AWizzArd: it's all UTF-16. That was a joke. :-)
13:48	AWizzArd	Strings always use char[] internally as their value.
13:49	jarpiain	heh, actually I wrote the class file parser/assembler first and then kind of figured a compiler would be a good way to generate test input :)
13:50	jarpiain	and also a more interesting project
13:50	AWizzArd	cemerick: so, on all official JVMs (char n) for n between 0 and 65535 will return the identical char.
13:52	cemerick	AWizzArd: I believe so, yes. (char n) is the equivalent of (char)n in Java.
13:52	chouser	jarpiain: so what are your plans/goals for the thing?
13:53	AWizzArd	good
13:55	jarpiain	in short term to implement the remaining few special forms, then I guess wait to see if there's any interest to take it further
13:55	jarpiain	I'm going to send the CA in any case
13:56	amalloy	hey, speaking of CA, should i expect some kind of notification when mine gets in? put it in the mail last monday
13:56	Raynes	amalloy: No notification.
13:56	Raynes	amalloy: Just keep an eye on the contributor list.
13:56	Raynes	$whatis CA
13:56	sexpbot	CA = The Clojure contributors agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
13:57	amalloy	ah cool
13:57	drewr	$whatis CYA
13:57	sexpbot	CYA does not exist in my database.
13:57	drewr	lame
13:57	Raynes	amalloy: Also, I think (I'm pretty sure) I've fixed clj-sandbox, and should be able to use a blacklisting scheme rather than a whitelisting scheme in sexpbot. Theoretically, this will make sexpbot's evaluation equivalent to clojurebot's when I'm finished.
13:58	danlarkin	$whatis raynes
13:58	sexpbot	raynes does not exist in my database.
13:58	danlarkin	bam!
13:58	pjstadig	CLABANGO!
13:58	hiredman	~suddenly
13:58	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
13:58	nickik	I don't know mutch about compiler (jet) but what does it mean to not depend on ASM?
13:59	chouser	nickik: ASM is a Java library the current Clojure compiler uses to generate JVM bytecode.
13:59	Nafai	technomancy: Around? I'm having some problems with slime from your git repo, perhaps you have a moment to help me debug?
14:00	_rata_	hi
14:00	kotarak	Wah! CLABANGO!
14:01	pjstadig	is ASM needless wheel reinvention? what about cross compiling from .NET to Java or something?
14:02	chouser	wow
14:03	abrooks	Heh, "Grand Theft Wumpus: The most violent programming example ever put into a textbook." http://nostarch.com/lisp.htm (third page sample)
14:04	mabes	can you tell leiningen to ignore certain sub-dependencies in the project.clj?
14:04	abrooks	That's from Conrad Barski's "The Land of LISP" book which looks hysterical.
14:04	cemerick	pjstadig: I think it's assumed that every potential host has suitable bytecode/executable generation facilities.
14:04	Bootvis	abrooks: it is
14:04	cemerick	I don't think anyone would be happy with cross compilation as a long-term solution in any case.
14:04	pjstadig	sure
14:05	pjstadig	it's a use case
14:05	_rata_	has anybody seen jkkramer?
14:05	pjstadig	maybe not eminently useful, but a use case
14:06	lrenn	mabes: there is an :exclusions key
14:06	nickik	http://landoflisp.com/ follow the arrow to the comic its really funny
14:07	lrenn	mabes: see http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj for an example
14:08	mabes	lrenn: great, thanks!
14:16	hiredman	Towards Performance Measurements for the Java Virtual Machine’s invokedynamic: http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~design/vmil/2010/papers/p06-kaewkasi.pdf
14:16	Raynes	,clojure.lang.RT
14:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.RT
14:17	Borkdude	Can someone give me guidance to how I can create a GWT Project in Eclipse and use Clojure for the server side?
14:22	fogus_	Borkdude: GWT can talk any number of protocols to your server.
14:29	Raynes	,(Thread/sleep 10000)
14:29	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:30	kotarak	Is there someone windows script kiddie hanging around, who would help poor vim users on Windows with some cmd magic?
14:37	technomancy	"script kiddie" is kind of a derogatory term actually.
14:37	technomancy	might not be a good thing to say if you are looking for volunteers. =)
14:39	kotarak	technomancy: I know the term. It was not intended as an offense, though. Rather a (slightly too) bold call.
14:42	Raynes	,(println "blah")
14:42	clojurebot	blah
14:45	Raynes	sexpbot's evaluation should be much less sucky now.
15:00	@rhickey	hiredman: thanks for the link
15:02	alpheus	Using deftrace, there's a nice tree printed when the function is called. Should dotrace print the tree for functions defined with defn?
15:05	jcromartie	trace!? what have I been missing
15:06	alpheus	clojure.contrib.trace/trace
15:08	jcromartie	awesomesauce bolognese!
15:09	TeXnomancy	dotrace is really great
15:10	alpheus	I must be using it wrong
15:11	TeXnomancy	alpheus: dotrace works on vars IIUC. fn literals can't be affected by it
15:13	rickmode	Using clojure.contrib.def/name-with-attributes is a bit awkward when not all macro arguments beyond name are variadic. Am I missing something? Example: http://gist.github.com/652096
15:22	alpheus	deftrace doesn't understand docstrings
15:22	jcromartie	does anybody else think that the metadata system adds a burden to library authors?
15:23	chouser	what kind of burden?
15:23	jcromartie	because there's a whole class of operations that can destroy metadata on objects, right?
15:24	jcromartie	and if you want to maintain metadata you have to be careful of the way you approach things
15:24	chouser	hm
15:24	jcromartie	I mean it could be that everything in clojure's core libraries maintains metadata
15:25	jcromartie	,(meta (seq (with-meta [] {:foo :bar})))
15:25	clojurebot	nil
15:26	jcromartie	but I guess not
15:26	chouser	but ... seq doesn't return the same object
15:26	chouser	not even the same type
15:26	jcromartie	no
15:26	jcromartie	that's true I guess
15:26	jcromartie	I suppose metadata is something you'd be using very mindfully anyway
15:26	jcromartie	I've never found a big use for it
15:26	chouser	most of your normal collection ops maintain metadata: conj, assoc, dissoc, disj, etc.
15:27	kotarak	,(meta (pop (with-meta [:a] {:foo :bar})))
15:27	clojurebot	{:foo :bar}
15:27	kotarak	I think the burden is on type implementors.
15:27	chouser	kotarak: yeah, I think that's fair
15:27	jcromartie	yeah I guess "destroy" is the wrong word
15:27	jcromartie	since there's no contract about what should or shouldn't return an object with metadata
15:28	cemerick	kotarak: which is an unfortunate thing, insofar as so few people use metadata, and aren't generally aware of the small details involved.
15:28	chouser	not many people implement types
15:29	kotarak	cemerick: I personally have no idea what to use metadata for besides talking to clojure and taint checks. But when I implemented my list with fast random lookup, the metadata was kind of annoying.
15:30	chouser	I haven't added metadata support yet to finger-trees. We'll see how annoying it is there. :-)
15:30	chouser	it's brilliant for passing extra data along with code
15:30	TeXnomancy	Robert Hooke and Radagast rely heavily on metadata; those would have been awful to implemnet without it.
15:31	TeXnomancy	when did (name "stringy") start to work? was it around the time 1.2 was released?
15:31	kotarak	chouser: I probably should investigate factory functions. ;)
15:31	chouser	TeXnomancy: does work in 1.2
15:33	jcromartie	of course it would be simple enough to have something that maintains the metadata for a value at both ends of some operations
15:34	hiredman	technomancy: you are being recalled
15:35	kotarak	jcromartie: the is a question where a new copy of the type is created. Then the operations don't really matter.
15:45	rickmode	Has anyone else hit awkwardness using name-with-attributes?
15:47	chouser	rickmode: never used it
15:48	arkh	technomancy: I filed an issue with leiningen on github yesterday - should I be able to see it when I go to "Issues"?
15:49	kotarak	rickmode: what awkwardness?
15:49	KirinDave	I think I hate gen-class and static methods.
15:49	KirinDave	There are all these weird little issues when scala is trying to call my gen-class forms
15:49	chouser	KirinDave: hate of gen-class is a natural consuequence of using it
15:50	rickmode	kotarak: it works but I had to cons together my none name macro args, e.g. (cons a (cons b rest)) with [name a b & rest], then pull the back apart after the name-with-attributes call. http://gist.github.com/652096
15:50	KirinDave	chouser: Even the docs are poor.
15:50	KirinDave	It's like a layer cake of hate. A layer-hate, if you will.
15:50	chouser	KirinDave: but I don't understand why static methods are still causing you problems
15:50	KirinDave	chouser: Neither do I.
15:50	KirinDave	chouser: Some vars it just insists are unbound.
15:50	KirinDave	chouser: My last problem was it choked on (declare ...)
15:50	KirinDave	chouser: So I changed all my (declares ) in my macro to (def sym identity)
15:51	KirinDave	chouser: But now even some functions are coming back unbound.
15:51	hiredman	oh wait, your macros are failing you?
15:51	chouser	there's got to be something wrong with your setup
15:51	KirinDave	hiredman: No.
15:51	hiredman	should have gone with conduit
15:51	KirinDave	chouser: It's not just my setu
15:52	KirinDave	hiredman: Maybe, just maybe, you should take your shoe and swallow it. It's not the macros, unless the clojure compiler itself is freaking otu that them
15:52	kotarak	rickmode: ehm, well, then don't name the arguments in the arg list. Just use [& macrotail], do the destructuring afterwards.
15:53	KirinDave	hiredman: And I may still go with conduit. Because of my macros, I actually get to change that as I go.
15:53	KirinDave	All I did was encode the logic of the graph, rather than how it's actually executed.
15:53	raek	KirinDave: have you made a simple working example, and then gradually added stuff until it breaks?
15:53	KirinDave	raek: No, because I keep running into new problems.
15:54	KirinDave	I can reliably break (declares ...) under (do ...)
15:54	KirinDave	I have a deadline I am trying to hit before I start submitting bugs.
15:54	KirinDave	So I stopped doing that.
15:54	KirinDave	But this problem is unrelated to any macro-ness
15:54	KirinDave	It's just saying a var in my clothesline.util module is unbound, when it's called from scala or java.
15:54	KirinDave	But it doesn't happen in Clojure.
15:55	rickmode	kotarak: I thought of that, but it makes the code less obvious visually and using (doc ...)
15:56	rickmode	kotarak: no worries - I was mainly curious if I missed something
15:56	kotarak	rickmode: the doc part is broken anyway, because it should read [docstring? metamap? your stuff here ...]
15:57	chouser	KirinDave: I don't mean to be stubborn or anything, but I can assure you I generate a Java class with static methods using gen-class, and use the results from both Clojure and Java code, in unit tests and integration tests on a regular basis, and have done so for many months.
15:57	chouser	KirinDave: so it can work. clearly there's some difference between the code here and the code there
15:57	KirinDave	chouser: I believe you.
15:57	KirinDave	I am stressing something, somehow.
15:57	chouser	that difference is probably not in clojure itself
15:58	kotarak	rickmode: you can use a metamap like this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/282847/
15:58	KirinDave	Well this only happens when called from scala.
15:58	KirinDave	I mean, it's saying an fn is unbound.
15:58	KirinDave	But it doesn't fail from the clojure repl.
15:58	chouser	what's the exact exception message for that?
15:58	KirinDave	chouser: https://gist.github.com/6486c21ed45dfc776321
15:59	KirinDave	Some variation of that.
15:59	rickmode	kotarak: I see.. override the arglists the compiler would build. Good suggestion.
15:59	KirinDave	Or, if we use "use" instead of "use ... :only"
15:59	KirinDave	https://gist.github.com/3a1d9830452f3c155c56
16:01	cemerick	KirinDave: "Maybe, just maybe, you should take your shoe and swallow it"? :-(
16:02	KirinDave	cemerick: I'm a little tired of hiredman telling me macros are bad 600 oblique ways.
16:03	cemerick	KirinDave: Whatever. As incredibly civil as the community has been in aggregate, we can all be moreso.
16:04	chouser	"does not exist" is not quite the same as "is unbound"
16:04	KirinDave	chouser: Are there any sorts of issues in my setup that might be worth investigating?
16:04	KirinDave	chouser: Right
16:05	KirinDave	chouser: It depends on how we use (:use )
16:05	KirinDave	If I say (:use clothesline.util) it does the dne, if I change it to :only it says unbound.
16:06	KirinDave	hard to debug this, tho... since it's a thing involving what happens when a clojure function is called from scala...
16:07	tlockney	KirinDave: actually, other way around. with :only we're getting DNE
16:07	KirinDave	tlockney: Ah
16:07	chouser	interesting, that makes more sense
16:08	tlockney	the DNE is coming from the defn for refer in core.clj, fwiw
16:08	chouser	sounds like the namespace is getting loaded by :use -- with :only [], you'd expect the var to not be referred, and thus "does not exist"
16:08	tlockney	which makes sense, since that one blows up trying to create an instance of the class
16:09	chouser	but without :only [], all the names will be referred, and if the var has no root binding, you'd expect "is unbound"
16:10	chouser	you might trying printing out the value of map-keys at the end of clothesline/util.clj and verify that the namespace is indeed getting loaded before you try to use it, and that the value is what you expect.
16:11	chouser	but that's just general debugging advice: verify what you think you know
16:11	chouser	hard to be more specific without all the code, build env, etc.
16:11	tlockney	chouser: I'm confused by the first part of your statement. the var we put in :only is the one that's getting the "does not exist"
16:11	tlockney	so, it is getting referred
16:11	tlockney	or, should be anyway
16:11	chouser	the only use of :only anyone has mentioned to me is :only [] which refers nothing
16:12	KirinDave	Ah, well of course we put a symbol in the [] dude. :)
16:12	tlockney	I think that was a miscommunication
16:12	tlockney	it's :only [map-keys]
16:13	technomancy	:only [] is actually a pretty reasonable thing to do
16:13	chouser	KirinDave: well, I actually recommend the use of :only [] with an empty vector.
16:13	chouser	but anyway...
16:13	technomancy	but only through historical accident
16:13	chouser	heh, right.
16:14	chouser	KirinDave, tlockney: but my debugging advice still stands
16:16	KirinDave	chouser: we'll keep at it. Thanks for your time.
16:18	arkh	Having a lein issue with dashes in namespaces (unrelated to my last IRC post)
16:18	arkh	in project.clj, I have '(defproject ... :main syslog-relay.core)'. My directory structure is ./src/syslog_relay/core.clj, my namespace in that file is '(ns syslog-relay.core ...)', and when I do a lein jar it throws a 'Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: syslog_relay/core'
16:19	arkh	ugh ... I'm sorry, when I do a 'java -jar syslog-relay-0.0.5-SNAPSHOT.jar' it throws the above error. lein jar is fine
16:20	raek	does 'lein jar' imply 'lein compile'?
16:21	arkh	I would think so (?) - I have generated .class files
16:22	arkh	my MANIFEST.MF says 'Main-Class: syslog_relay.core', fwiw
16:22	raek	I browsed through the source, and it looks like it does
16:22	arkh	oh - I guess I should have done that too! ; )
16:23	raek	arkh: do you have a :gen-class thingy in the ns form?
16:23	arkh	I do not
16:23	KirinDave	arkh: Ah. Yes. Well. There, as they say, is your problem. :)
16:24	arkh	oh .. I need a :gen-class just for lein jar?
16:24	raek	looks like a (:gen-class) is sufficient
16:24	raek	then the "-main" function will be the main method of the main class
16:26	raek	arkh: you need :gen-class in order to generate a class that has a main method
16:26	raek	the namespace foo.bar will become the class foo/bar__init.class
16:26	arkh	I'm wondering how I missed that - where should I have read that before?
16:27	raek	http://clojure.org/compilation is where I found out about this
16:27	arkh	is creating a jar the same thing as "aot compile"?
16:28	raek	...but you can control what method that class gets. so you use :gen-class to generate another class which can have the methods you like
16:28	raek	*but you can't
16:28	technomancy	arkh: I think the lein tutorial covers it
16:30	arkh	sorry for asking a question that's in the documentation - raek, KirinDave, technomancy, thank you for your help
16:31	raek	np
16:31	Nafai	technomancy: Question about slime from your github repo; when I execute something in the repl that causes an error (but not all errors), like trying to use a non-existant namespace, Emacs becomes unhappy and starts spitting out this:
16:31	Nafai	error in process filter: Wrong type argument: characterp, nil
16:31	Nafai	error in process filter: define-key: Wrong type argument: characterp, nil
16:31	Nafai	I have to kill emacs because I can't even do anything after this
16:31	Nafai	Any hints on how to debug this?
16:33	technomancy	Nafai: maybe make sure you've got the latest swank-clojure 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT
16:33	AWizzArd	Is that available as a .jar too?
16:34	technomancy	it's on clojars
16:34	raek	is it safe to use that one for clojure 1.2?
16:35	raek	meh. I could as well upgrade everything to 1.3.0-alpha2
16:35	technomancy	sure; it's "lein multi test"ed against 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3-snapshot
16:35	technomancy	not that the test suite is any good
16:36	Nafai	technomancy: Yeah, running the latest swank-clojure snapshot
16:42	technomancy	sorry, not sure what's going on there
16:43	Nafai	ok
17:01	duncanm	dum de dum
17:01	duncanm	finally fixed a bug that has been haunting me for 3 days
17:01	duncanm	turns out it was just because I couldn't read the order of the arguments to the AffineTransform constructor correctly
17:02	AWizzArd	3 days?
17:02	AWizzArd	Those are the pitfalls of dynamically typed langs.
17:02	ohpauleez	Does anyone in here use paredit.vim?
17:03	duncanm	yeah, m00 m10 m01 m11 m02 m12 vs. m00 m01 m02 m10 m11 m12
17:03	duncanm	rows first, or columns first
17:04	duncanm	i paid attention to the multimethod that took in a vector, and got that right, but forgot to check how i destructure the incanter.matrix
17:04	duncanm	anyhoo
17:04	duncanm	i have this code to do some other destructuring, and it's a bit long, i was hoping to see if someone could figure out a better, more concise way
17:04	duncanm	it goes "From a map of {key, {:entries {s [sx sy] ...} ...}} and 's', return a map of {key, [sx sy]}"
17:05	duncanm	i put mine here: http://gist.github.com/652322
17:16	_seanc_	Is there a simple way in Clojure, without using Java, to replace one character in a string with another. Say, replace spaces with a dash
17:17	Raynes	Why do you not want to use Java here?
17:17	Raynes	&(.replace "foo bar baz" " " "-")
17:17	sexpbot	⟹ "foo-bar-baz"
17:17	_seanc_	I'm a Java dev, I want to try and learn Clojure without Java
17:18	raek	if we define "without using Java" as "by only calling clojure functions", clojure.string/replace seems to be a match
17:18	raek	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.string/replace
17:18	Raynes	Clojure embraces Java quite a bit. Where Java isn't broke, Clojure doesn't really aspire to fix it.
17:18	raek	,(require '[clojure.string :as str])
17:18	clojurebot	nil
17:18	_seanc_	whoa, ClojureDocs, how the hell hasn't Google shown me this before?!
17:18	Raynes	There is the replace function in clojure.string and raek just pointed out, but it uses .replace under the hood. Hell, I think it even takes the arguments in the same order.
17:19	raek	,(str/replace "foot" \o \e)
17:19	clojurebot	"feet"
17:20	raek	yeah, clojure.string is a very thin wrapper
17:20	_seanc_	I appreciate the help. I'm learning more and more :)
17:22	_seanc_	@raek where you put (require '[clojure.string :as str]), does that have no negative impact on clojure.core's str?
17:22	scottj	_seanc_: I think clojuredocs.org is fairly new, maybe not a high pagerank bc few links to it
17:24	raek	_seanc_: no, the "src" it introduces is a namespace prefix, which are always distinct from var names from context
17:28	_seanc_	raek: So since require creates a new str in a new namespace. Does that mean when you use str, without specifying the namespace that clojure has to figure out which is the correct one to use?
17:29	raek	require does two things in this case: 1) makes sure that the namespace gets loaded 2) adds a namespace alias in the current namespace
17:30	raek	so writing str instead of clojure.string (which you can still use) only works in the namespace you made the require
17:30	raek	no
17:30	raek	now
17:30	raek	namespaces does not have var entries in other namespaces
17:31	_seanc_	I think I may have misunderstood something. I'll do some more reading. I appreciate the help
17:32	duncanm	la la la
17:32	technomancy	is there any way to add a method to a defmulti for which you only have the var at runtime?
17:32	technomancy	other than eval
17:32	raek	when clojure evaluates the symbol str, it will first resolve it to fully qualified form: str -> clojure.core/str
17:33	raek	if the symbol already has a namespace part, then that part will be looked up in the alias table and replaced with the full form, of there is any
17:33	Raynes	&(resolve 'str)
17:33	sexpbot	⟹ #'clojure.core/str
17:34	raek	so namespaces only go before the slash, and var names only after the slash
17:35	raek	(on exception is when you use quoted symbols to refer to namespaces, like when calling 'require' or 'use')
17:35	raek	but since they are quoted, normal rules don't apply
17:35	_seanc_	quoted being ' ?
17:36	raek	yes
17:36	_seanc_	You know, I don't want to bother you guys all day. Do any of you know of some good resources for clojure? I can honestly say none of the things I've read really cover much
17:37	nickik	how do i get a normal map from a record?
17:37	nickik	(because i want to use the data as a function)
17:37	raek	_seanc_: I haven
17:38	technomancy	~peepcode
17:38	raek	't read this, but it seems to cover many things: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_Clojure
17:38	raek	I learned very much about clojure from the pages of clojure.org, but then I had programmed in Lisp before...
17:39	_seanc_	raek, you're the (wo)man!
17:40	_seanc_	(I have no idea if you're a dude or dudette, no offense intended)
17:40	raek	how politically correct of you... :) but I'm just a male geek as you would expect
17:41	nickik	is there a better way then this (apply hash-map (interleave (keys <The Record>) (vals <The Record>)))
17:41	_seanc_	Hah, I know a few female devs so you can never be sure
17:41	amalloy\|brb	nickik: (into {} <The Record>)?
17:41	raek	nickik: (into {} the-record)
17:42	nickik	ah of course why did i not think of that
17:42	amalloy\|brb	if you want to be verbose, you can use (apply zipmap ((juxt keys vals) the-record))
17:43	raek	amalloy's brain and mine seems to be in lockstep... or should I say "juxed"? :-)
17:44	raek	hey, you managed to sneak in a juxt there too... :)
17:44	nickik	sais something about the clojure api too
17:45	raek	nickik: another way would be #(get the-record %)
17:45	raek	if you don't want to build a new data structure
17:45	a_strange_guy	Hello Clojurians
17:46	nickik	oh my good a strange guy
17:46	nickik	hallo :)
17:46	a_strange_guy	is anyone else building clojure and contrib himself
17:46	a_strange_guy	?
17:46	raek	not since lein was released... :-)
17:48	raek	if you're just going to use them (and not fix bugs or something) there is little benefit of compiling them yourself
17:48	Raynes	Most people just use cake or lein these days.
17:48	nickik	i never did :)
17:49	a_strange_guy	i just like playing with the bleeding-edge versions
17:49	ohpauleez	a_strange_guy: you can pull the daily snapshots with lein
17:49	ohpauleez	or cake
17:49	Raynes	The bleeding edge versions are on in a maven repository, I believe.
17:49	Raynes	Like he said.
17:50	a_strange_guy	are those the same as the ones at build.clojure.org?
17:50	raek	yes
17:50	ohpauleez	a_strange_guy: you want to use alpha2 as your 1.3.0 artifact, that's the last major step. If you want snapshots, you can use snapshots, but the alpha cuts are better (imo)
17:51	raek	there's both http://build.clojure.org/releases/ and http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/
17:51	a_strange_guy	a lot seems to have changed since I last used clojure xD
17:52	ohpauleez	a_strange_guy: http://gist.github.com/652400
17:52	ohpauleez	and example where I use alpha2 in my project.clj
17:52	raek	well, Leiningen (pretty much the first useful Clojure build system) was released in november last year, IIRC
17:53	ohpauleez	There's also commented lines how how to get snapshots
17:53	raek	a_strange_guy: yes, indeed.
17:54	raek	I remember the times before lein...
17:54	a_strange_guy	I stopped programming last spring for a while, and now so much had changed ^^
17:55	a_strange_guy	i remember the times before 1.0 ...
17:55	ohpauleez	yes, I too remember those days
17:56	joegallo	When we had to walk uphill, both ways, to read a sexp.
17:56	joegallo	And we liked it!
17:56	ohpauleez	It's going to be funny when we say things like, "Remember when all we had were transients and type hints"
17:57	technomancy	remember the tarbomb releases?
17:57	joegallo	You kids today! I once wrote a lexer/parser using nothing but closing parens!
17:57	technomancy	that was my first bug reports
17:57	technomancy	*report
17:58	a_strange_guy	"Did you know that once apon a tome, clojure was written in a strange language called 'Java'?"
17:58	a_strange_guy	^^
17:59	a_strange_guy	i just asked if someone builds clojure from scratch, because I cant get contrib to build against my clojure.jar
17:59	a_strange_guy	the -Dclojure.jar option doesnt seem to work
18:00	a_strange_guy	it still downloads a clojure.jar via maven
18:00	a_strange_guy	and the resulting satandalone.jar ist binary incompatible
18:01	ohpauleez	Is it possible to destructure in an anon func?
18:01	amalloy	yes
18:01	amalloy	,((fn [[a b]] [b a]) [1 2])
18:02	amalloy	&((fn [[a b]] [b a]) [1 2])
18:02	sexpbot	⟹ [2 1]
18:02	amalloy	i'll get over this comma habit yet!
18:02	ohpauleez	I'm mapping something across a map, and I want the key and value
18:02	amalloy	ohpauleez: ^^
18:02	ohpauleez	ahh, cool, thanks amalloy
18:02	ohpauleez	I knew I had done it before, I don't know what I'm doing wrong right now haha
18:02	amalloy	laugh what does your broken attempt look like?
18:03	ohpauleez	it's sitting on a repl right now, let me poke it a little more, and if I can't fix it, I'll gist it
18:04	apgwoz	what's the proper way to add metadata in the `ns` macro? i've seen (ns #^{..} ..) and i've seen (ns x.core {:blah blah}...) ?
18:04	apgwoz	or, are they equivalent?
18:05	apgwoz	... though, i've also seen (ns ^{..}...) too..
18:05	ohpauleez	amalloy: solved. I was being foolish
18:05	amalloy	apgwoz: i don't know about the ns form, but i think #^ is deprecated in favor of ^ these days
18:05	MayDaniel	apgwoz: (ns ^{:doc "..."} user)
18:06	apgwoz	amalloy, MayDaniel: ah, sweet.
18:07	ohpauleez	apgwoz: I do (ns some-name ^{:author Me} (:require ...))
18:07	technomancy	you don't need that syntax for just :doc; just put a string after the ns name
18:07	MayDaniel	Just an example..
18:07	apgwoz	technomancy: right, but, for :author as well
18:08	apgwoz	ohpauleez: does that actually attach the metadata to the namespace?
18:08	technomancy	I fail to understand why that belongs in code rather than version history, but if you wanted to do it, that's how you would.
18:08	apgwoz	i thought the metadata shortcut only worked for the preceeding element.
18:09	ohpauleez	I don't know actually, let me try on the repl real quick. It's just what I've seen done
18:10	apgwoz	technomancy: while i'd normally agree with you, some companies have rules regarding these things where everything has to be documented, who wrote it, etc. that metadata seems like an appropriate place.
18:10	hiredman	,(symbole "\o")
18:10	hiredman	,(symbol "\o")
18:10	amalloy	apgwoz: comments with version-control tags?
18:11	apgwoz	amalloy: that works too, but by not meta data with version-control tags?
18:11	apgwoz	:)
18:11	technomancy	apgwoz: true; better than comments
18:11	ohpauleez	apgwoz: both forms don't actually attach meta data for me
18:12	technomancy	actually it needs to be before the namespace name
18:13	ohpauleez	technomancy: does it?
18:13	MayDaniel	Yes.
18:15	ohpauleez	MayDaniel: http://gist.github.com/652449
18:15	apgwoz	yeah, looks like it.
18:15	ohpauleez	Ohhhh
18:15	ohpauleez	nvm
18:15	ohpauleez	It's attaching to the require, not the ns
18:15	ohpauleez	I understand now
18:17	scottj	what's the oldform param in if-let for?
18:18	apgwoz	yeah, it seems the reader effectively does: 1. if find a ^form, push it on a stack 2. read next form 3. if stack not empty, add meta data to result of 2.
18:19	scottj	oh nm, guess old version must not have used binding vector so it's to show an error
19:02	duncanm	is there a shortcut syntax for writing {:x x :y y} ?
19:03	MayDaniel	No
19:03	duncanm	that's too bad
19:03	Raynes	What would the shortcut look like?
19:04	duncanm	i don't really know
19:04	duncanm	there is something like it in destructuring, with :keys, which is why i asked
19:04	bhenry	what might be the opposite of not-any?
19:04	Raynes	I'm just not sure what your shortcutting. :p
19:05	MayDaniel	some is similar to the opposite.
19:05	Raynes	-> (doc every?)
19:05	sexpbot	⟹ "([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
19:05	bhenry	,(doc some)
19:05	tomoj	do you also have a (let [x ... y ...]) around it?
19:05	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence,...
19:05	MayDaniel	Oops.
19:07	tomoj	duncanm: https://gist.github.com/2f060dde83ac1bfbe551
19:07	tomoj	if so
19:07	tomoj	but you could change it from into to just macroexpanding to a literal map
19:07	tomoj	since the let ensures evaluation order
19:07	MayDaniel	duncanm: Do you mean {x :x y :y} as in how you'd use it in destructuring?
19:08	tomoj	if you had a macroexpand to {:x x :y y}.. be careful
19:08	tomoj	s/macro/macro /
19:08	sexpbot	<tomoj> if you had a macro expand to {:x x :y y}.. be careful
19:10	duncanm	tomoj: that's very cute
19:11	duncanm	(let [min-x ..., min-y ..., max-x ..., max-y ...] {:min-x min-x :min-y min-y :max-x max-x :max-y max-y})
19:11	duncanm	that's what i have
19:11	duncanm	tomoj: so your macro would make it nicer
19:11	duncanm	but i don't think i'll use that macro for just this instance
19:11	tomoj	that's exactly the pattern I had
19:11	duncanm	tomoj: it'd be cool if it were part of clojure.core ;-)
19:12	tomoj	I was also independently doing macros that generated big maps which caused all my code to execute in scrambled order
19:12	duncanm	then, i'd definitely use it
19:12	duncanm	i don't even bind the dummy thing, i think that's quite nice
19:12	duncanm	s/bind/mind/
19:12	sexpbot	<duncanm> i don't even mind the dummy thing, i think that's quite nice
19:13	duncanm	i posted a bit of destructuring code earlier, it'd be cool if someone can show me some better way to write it: http://gist.github.com/652322
19:13	duncanm	my version works, but it seems kinda too verbose
19:14	duncanm	maybe if i use for instead of map and then let, it'll be more concise
19:14	scottj	a couple weeks ago someone posted a macro where you could do (with-keys a b c) I think and get {:a a :b b :c c). Anyone remember the name of it?
19:15	tomoj	duncanm: that was the first thing I noticed
19:16	duncanm	tomoj: oh?
19:16	tomoj	I don't understand the rest of it
19:17	duncanm	tomoj: i posted a version with for, it looks a little better?
19:17	duncanm	(first (get (:entries trail) section)) still seems too busy
19:17	tomoj	cool
19:18	tomoj	well
19:18	tomoj	hmm
19:18	mattrepl	technomancy: I'm trying to use a hook in leiningen to set the classpath in used by the lein-swank plugin. I can't see how to do it without modifying lein-swank to accept a handler which it could pass to eval-in-project. Am I doing it wrong or should I find a workaround (dynamic var of handlers in eval-in-project) and submit a patch to lein?
19:18	raek	duncanm: I would write (for [[id trail] trails] :let [entries (get (:entries trail) section)] [id (->vpoint (first entries))])
19:18	duncanm	tomoj: i'm also using maps when i could be using vectors, i guess?
19:18	duncanm	yeah, i don't know what to do about that
19:18	raek	I personally prefer 'for' over 'map' + 'fn'
19:18	mattrepl	s/in used/used
19:18	raek	also, you can do lets with it
19:19	duncanm	raek: yeah, i'm slowly warming up to the list comprehension syntax
19:19	hsuh	clojure macros expand at compile time, right ?
19:19	duncanm	hsuh: macros expand at compile time
19:19	tomoj	(-> trail entries section first ->vpoint) ?
19:19	duncanm	tomoj: hehe
19:20	tomoj	I dunno
19:20	duncanm	tomoj: that wouldn't work when 'section' is a number, it'd work if it were a keyword
19:20	Raynes	Macros expand at macroexpansion time.
19:20	tomoj	funny how not knowing what the heck its doing makes it so much harder to read
19:20	duncanm	tomoj: is the comment not clear?
19:20	duncanm	i guess the ...s are a bit too abstract
19:20	tomoj	I just am too dump to try to understand right now
19:21	tomoj	I guess knowing what the code is doing gives you shortcuts for reading chunks of it
19:21	duncanm	tomoj: well, this function is just destructuring
19:23	duncanm	i have a map of {key, T} and each T is a map of {:entries { section-id [[x1 y1] [x2 y2]...] }
19:24	duncanm	for some section-id, i want {key, [x1 y1]}
19:25	duncanm	either way
19:34	duncanm	i used to think that polymorphic sequence operators are the "missing things" in Scheme
19:35	duncanm	but now that i've used them in Clojure, while I do like them generally, I can see that they could get confusing sometimes
19:35	duncanm	maybe it's just me not being experienced enough with them
19:35	duncanm	i find it 'annoying' that (map #(..) some-map) returns a seq of MapEntrys
19:35	duncanm	same with filter
19:36	amalloy	duncanm: destructuring is the answer again :P
19:36	duncanm	maybe all i need is to write my own map-map and filter-map
19:36	duncanm	amalloy: how so?
19:36	amalloy	&(map (fn [[k v]] [k (+ 1 v)]) {:k 10, :t 5})
19:36	sexpbot	⟹ ([:t 6] [:k 11])
19:37	amalloy	if you want it as a map again, just use into
19:37	duncanm	but i want {:t 6 :k 11} instead of ([:t 6] [:k 11])
19:37	amalloy	&(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (+ 1 v)]) {:k 10, :t 5}))
19:37	sexpbot	⟹ {:t 6, :k 11}
19:37	duncanm	amalloy: yeah, that's the bit that bothers me
19:37	duncanm	maybe i'll learn to accept it
19:37	amalloy	i agree we could use an into {} function
19:37	amalloy	but it's convenient for map to always return a seq
19:38	amalloy	rather than try to guess what to return based on the class it's passed
19:38	duncanm	amalloy: yeah, but most of the time, you do want it to be the class that you put in
19:38	Raynes	& (def into-map (partial into {}))
19:38	sexpbot	⟹ #'net.licenser.sandbox.box9126/into-map
19:38	amalloy	Raynes: sure, of course it's not hard to write one
19:39	Raynes	&(into-map (map (fn [[k v]] [k (+ 1 v)]) {:k 10, :t 5}))
19:39	sexpbot	⟹ {:t 6, :k 11}
19:39	MayDaniel	There's clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap
19:39	amalloy	&(def def inc)
19:39	sexpbot	⟹ #'net.licenser.sandbox.box9126/def
19:39	amalloy	&(def def inc)
19:39	sexpbot	⟹ #'net.licenser.sandbox.box9126/def
19:39	duncanm	i wrote a update-val in my code
19:39	duncanm	(defn update-vals [m update] (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (update v)])))
19:39	amalloy	Raynes: neat. we get a sandbox per user?
19:39	Raynes	&(def 3)
19:39	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: First argument to def must be a Symbol
19:39	amalloy	or no
19:40	amalloy	&def
19:40	sexpbot	⟹ #<core$inc clojure.core$inc@f334db>
19:40	amalloy	???
19:40	duncanm	having select-keys for maps different from filter is also one of the things i had to learn the hard way
19:40	amalloy	&(identity def)
19:40	sexpbot	⟹ #<core$inc clojure.core$inc@f334db>
19:40	amalloy	&((identity def) 1)
19:40	sexpbot	⟹ 2
19:40	amalloy	&(def 1)
19:40	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: First argument to def must be a Symbol
19:40	duncanm	and i guess the other pair is dissoc/remove
19:41	Raynes	amalloy: There is a reason that bots shouldn't allow def and defn.
19:41	amalloy	Raynes: what is it doing under the hood here?
19:41	amalloy	yeah, i agree
19:41	Raynes	I think I allowed it ages ago for playing with it in another channel and just never disallowed it.
19:41	amalloy	which is why i'm surprised it knows def is inc ever. but i don't understand what it's doing that makes it def sometimes, and inc other times
19:43	duncanm	i always prefered the Smalltalk's names for sequence operators over Lisp's: collect: instead of map, select: instead of filter, and inject:into: instead of reduce/fold
19:43	Raynes	amalloy: def is a special form.
19:43	amalloy	oh
19:43	Raynes	amalloy: It behaves the same way in an REPL.
19:44	amalloy	duncanm: so use them. nobody's stopping you from (def collect map)
19:44	duncanm	amalloy: i know i know
19:44	duncanm	amalloy: well, it's probably bad form for others having to read the code
19:46	amalloy	yeah, i agree. but (a bit tongue in cheek here, no offense) i'd prefer that your code reflect your dislike, rather than your chat in #clojure do it
19:47	amalloy	ie, rich isn't going to rename them anytime soon
19:48	Raynes	I strongly disagree.
19:48	Raynes	Except for fold. I'd take fold over reduce, I guess.
19:48	amalloy	Raynes: disagree with whom?
19:48	Raynes	Both of you.
19:48	amalloy	heh
19:48	duncanm	heh
19:48	Raynes	:p
19:48	amalloy	well, yes. if i were giving selfless advice, it would be to complain in #clojure but write standards-conforming code
19:49	Raynes	I was implying that I disagree with your agreement. Not the rest of the message.
19:50	amalloy	oh
19:50	amalloy	no, i agree that it's bad form to re-def in his code
19:50	amalloy	i like map/reduce/filter, myself
19:50	Raynes	Oh. Then I agree with you and disagree with him. I think. :\|
19:51	amalloy	if we ever get unfold and/or foldl/foldr then i'll support a name-change for reduce, but until then i prefer reduce
19:51	Raynes	I'm neutral as far as reduce vs fold.
19:51	Raynes	Either one would work for me.
19:53	duncanm	i just found out that Select in .NET/LINQ is the equivalent of #collect: in the Smalltalk naming scheme, how confusing!
19:54	amalloy	duncanm: best to stick with map and filter then, eh?
19:54	duncanm	amalloy: yeah, i suppose ;-D
19:55	Raynes	Haskell uses map and filter as well.
19:55	Raynes	$he map + [1..10]
19:55	sexpbot	=> Couldn't match expected type `(a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]' against inferred type `[a1]'
19:56	Raynes	Man, I haven't used Haskell in so long.
19:56	Raynes	$he map (+) [1..10]
19:56	sexpbot	=> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) arising from a use of `M1800505397.show_M1800505397' at <interactive>:(2,0)-(4,33)Matching instances: instance (Data.Typeable.Typeable a, Data.Typeable.Typeable b) => GHC.Show.Show (a -> b) -- Defined in show-0.3.4:ShowFun instance (Test.SmallCheck.Serial a, GHC.Show.Show a, GHC.Show.Show b) => GHC.Show.Show (a -> b) -- Defined in smallc
19:56	Raynes	Screw it.
19:56	duncanm	wow, there's a haskell REPL here too? what else can i write?
19:56	Raynes	Thats about it. It needs to truncate text though.
19:56	Raynes	I'm surprised I overlooked that.
20:03	Raynes	There.
20:08	bhenry	Raynes: is ruby learning down or is it my workplace's horrible network that seems to give me trouble with it every time.
20:08	bhenry	the latter is my speculation based on your answer to the former
20:08	Raynes	It's down.
20:08	Raynes	$ping rubylearning.org
20:08	sexpbot	Raynes: FAILURE!
20:11	guandao	suppose i figured out how to capture out, would it be thread-safe?
20:11	guandao	and what i mean is ... would i get the stream of a single thread in it, without mixing the other threads output in the stream...
20:13	guandao	i guess with-out-writer does that
20:20	tlockney	anyone got a pointer on how I can create a Clojure function from Java?
20:21	tlockney	and, please, before anyone asks why I would want to do such a thing, just... well, don't
20:21	Raynes	Why would yo... damn. ._>
20:22	tlockney	I'm guessing the easiest thing to do is going to be to have the clojure side somehow wrap it, but wondering if there's a more direct way
20:44	notsonerdysunny	can somebody tell me when to use #^ and ^ for providing type(or meta info) information?
20:44	notsonerdysunny	or are they both equivalent?
20:45	MayDaniel	I think #^ is deprecated from version 1.2.0
20:46	Raynes	What he said.
20:46	notsonerdysunny	thanks MayDaniel and Raynes
20:47	Raynes	I wish everybody thanked me for repeating other people's answers.
20:47	notsonerdysunny	:) confirmations adds weight to the answer ..
20:48	amalloy	Raynes: don't forget MayDaniel and i both said that an hour or two ago too, when apgwoz asked
20:51	amalloy	hey, i just managed to ping/highlight/alert three different people in one message, none of whom actually care what i said
20:52	Derander	amalloy: cool
21:03	duncanm	is there no page on clojure.org on futures/promises?
21:04	duncanm	i have a task to take an image and transform it and then write it to disk, i'd like to do that in parallel, so that i can use all my cores to run the transformation, should i just use pmap and fire off (future (render %)) inside the pmap?
21:40	chaslemley	,(+ 5 5)
21:40	clojurebot	10
21:51	technomancy	mattrepl: pong
21:51	mattrepl	technomancy: hola
21:52	technomancy	so did you try adding a hook to leiningen.classpath/get-classpath?
21:53	technomancy	(add-hook #'leiningen.classpath/get-classpath (fn [f & args] (conj (apply f args) "/my/new/classpath/entry.jar")))
21:53	mattrepl	oh, I feel silly. I had it in my head that I needed to hook a plugin for some reason.. yes, that works perfect
21:54	mattrepl	thanks, that should do it
21:54	technomancy	schweet
21:55	mattrepl	what an awesome setup, robert.hooke may find it's way into crane... =)
21:57	technomancy	robert hooke has real ultimate power
21:59	maravillas	i never knew his last name was hooke
22:01	Plouj	hey guys
22:02	Plouj	did anyone here see job openings at Akamai for Clojure development?
22:02	hiredman	they had a table at the conj
22:02	arscott	pretty sure they had a sign out saying they were hiring
22:02	Plouj	there's no way I'm moving to that area (Cambridge, MA), but maybe you guys would be interested
22:02	Plouj	oh, I see
22:03	Plouj	sounds like a posistive point for Clojure as a whole
22:04	Plouj	positive*
22:08	technomancy	nothing like a little corporate backing
22:15	amalloy	can someone help me out with defmulti? i can't figure out the syntax and clojuredocs has no examples. i want to define a multifn that dispatches on the class of its first argument
22:16	amalloy	(defmulti do-thing (comp class first)) doesn't seem to work
22:16	duncanm	(defmulti distance #(class %1)) ;; this ought to work
22:19	amalloy	duncanm: hm, thanks. i think the issue is actually that my defmulti is stale. if i (defmulti name func) and then later in the same repl session (defmulti name other), it still dispatches based on func instead of other
22:21	amalloy	&(#(class %1) "1" 2)
22:21	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: box12631$eval12833$fn
22:22	amalloy	that doesn't actually work duncanm, but it gets me to understand the syntax
22:25	duncanm	amalloy: oh right, the implicit % works kinda funky
22:25	amalloy	duncanm: (comp class first list) works as a dispatch fn
22:25	duncanm	(fn [a _] (class a))
22:25	duncanm	or (fn [a & ignored] (class a))
22:25	amalloy	yeah
22:25	duncanm	is there no page on clojure.org on futures/promises?
22:26	technomancy	underscore is preferred to "ignored"
22:26	duncanm	technomancy: does _ bind varargs?
22:26	technomancy	duncanm: I mean with a &
22:26	duncanm	oh oh
22:26	duncanm	(fn [a & _] (class a))
22:27	duncanm	i'm trying to figure out how to use futures
22:31	technomancy	creating a future is like spawning a pooled thread, but you get a value back when it's done
22:32	technomancy	promises are just simple reference types; no code executes inside them. they're just placeholders into which a value can be placed asynchronously (only once)
22:33	technomancy	kind of like atoms, but they don't need swap concurrency semantics since they can only be set once
22:34	somnium	any adventurous clojure hackers interested in kicking the tires on a javascript compiler?
22:35	duncanm	technomancy: can you take a quick look at this? http://gist.github.com/652780
22:35	duncanm	technomancy: render! is my CPU and IO intensive task
22:36	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(-> 1 #(inc)))
22:36	sexpbot	⟹ (fn* 1 [] (inc))
22:36	amalloy	what's an idiomatic form using -> that will result in (fn [] (inc 1))?
22:37	_rata_	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 inc))
22:37	clojurebot	(inc 1)
22:37	sexpbot	=> 1
22:37	amalloy	_rata_: yes, but i need a function, not a result
22:37	_rata_	oh ok
22:37	hiredman	,((-> inc (partial 1)))
22:38	clojurebot	2
22:38	duncanm	hey hiredman
22:38	hiredman	hello
22:39	amalloy	&(-> inc (partial 1))
22:39	sexpbot	⟹ #<core$partial$fn__3678 clojure.core$partial$fn__3678@909348>
22:39	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(-> inc (partial 1)))
22:39	sexpbot	⟹ (partial inc 1)
22:39	duncanm	i've used future before like this (def f (future (do-some-io-work)))
22:39	hiredman	I wouldn't use future in a def
22:41	duncanm	hiredman: i do that so i can query the status of the work
22:41	hiredman	that thread will start running anytime that def is loaded
22:42	duncanm	hiredman: oh, i only do that in the REPL
22:45	duncanm	hiredman: is that not a good thing to do?
22:45	duncanm	oh, maybe i should do send-off instead of send
22:45	duncanm	hmm, nope
22:58	duncanm	dum de dum
23:02	amalloy	&\newline
23:02	sexpbot	⟹ \newline
23:02	amalloy	&\nonsense
23:02	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unsupported character: \nonsense
23:09	duncanm	how do i tell a future to start running?
23:09	ohpauleez	duncanm: A future will start running right away
23:09	ohpauleez	"right away"
23:10	ohpauleez	you get back the value from it, by deref'ing it
23:10	duncanm	ohpauleez: so what am i doing wrong here? http://gist.github.com/652780
23:13	ohpauleez	I'm not sure you want a future there, that's already being run in an agent, which will be in a different thread
23:14	ohpauleez	otherwise, there's nothing super obvious. You might want to look at if you want to be using send vs send-off
23:14	duncanm	ohpauleez: right
23:14	ohpauleez	and if you're calling this on the repl, you'll want to call (shutdown-agents)
23:14	ohpauleez	if it's hanging
23:19	duncanm	ohpauleez: is there a upper-bound to the number of futures i have running? or will they use a threadpool?
23:20	ohpauleez	they will use the threadpool. What symptom are you seeing?
23:20	duncanm	nothing's running ;-P
23:20	ohpauleez	As in, when you deref, you get nothing back?
23:20	duncanm	ohpauleez: should i use agent/send-off or future?
23:20	duncanm	ohpauleez: right
23:21	duncanm	i think i know how to do it with just future
23:21	ohpauleez	I would personally just use futures, and map deref across them
23:22	ohpauleez	You might also just want to use a ref and pmap, chunked appropriately
23:23	duncanm	ohpauleez: i was chunking manually
23:23	duncanm	ohpauleez: so by now i'm a little lost in how to put it all together
23:23	duncanm	ohpauleez: oh, the ref holds the list of futures?
23:24	ohpauleez	right, you want to be chunking your data 2+ number of cores, and run pmap on that
23:24	duncanm	ohpauleez: and i just (map deref futures) to get all of them started
23:24	ohpauleez	right, that's one approach
23:24	duncanm	ohpauleez: how do i put the futures into the ref?
23:24	hiredman	deref doesn't start futures
23:24	ohpauleez	the other one is just to use pmap and no futures
23:24	hiredman	futures start right away
23:25	ohpauleez	hiredman: right, I think he knows that
23:25	duncanm	(future-done? (future-call (fn [])))
23:25	ohpauleez	ohhh, nvm, I didn't read his last line
23:25	duncanm	i tried doing that
23:25	duncanm	and it always says false
23:25	ohpauleez	duncanm: futures start right away, jump on the repl and play around with them a little bit
23:25	duncanm	i'm still a bit lost
23:25	ohpauleez	let me make a gist for you, hang on
23:26	duncanm	ohpauleez: thanks so much
23:26	duncanm	this is kinda silly, i have counted this - if i do this sequentially, it'll only take like 2 hrs
23:26	duncanm	and i've spent close to 2 hrs trying to learn how to do it in parallel
23:26	duncanm	i'm trying to render 1200 images
23:29	_seanc_	Hey guys, so I know two asterisks are use to denote globals, but what exactly are two pluses for in say: +db-path+ ?
23:30	_rata_	_seanc_, in common lisp that's used for constants... not sure in clojure
23:31	amalloy	in clojure it's frowned on, mostly. there are a few people who use it for constants
23:31	technomancy	_rata_: they're used by common lispres writing clojure
23:31	_seanc_	Oh ok, but I am right about the * * for constants?
23:31	technomancy	_seanc_: not globals but values which are intended for rebinding
23:31	duncanm	_seanc_: i think the java convention of UPPER_CASE is ok too
23:32	_rata_	hahahaha ok, I didn't know that
23:32	technomancy	all non-privates are globals
23:32	itistoday	shit... how do i switch channels in erc (emacs)?
23:32	duncanm	itistoday: by switching buffers?
23:32	dakrone	itistoday: channels are buffers
23:32	itistoday	i've auto-logged in to both #emacs and #clojure
23:32	itistoday	oh
23:32	itistoday	C-x b
23:32	itistoday	dakrone: thanks!
23:32	_seanc_	I guess I don't really understand the concept of binding and rebinding yet. It's not as simple as assigning a new value is it?
23:33	duncanm	ohpauleez: i'm trying something like this now: http://gist.github.com/652780
23:34	_rata_	_seanc_, no, it's like "stacking" a new value on it and then you get back to the original value (when you live the "binding" form)
23:34	duncanm	oh wait, i forgot about the dorun
23:34	_rata_	+ it's thread-safe
23:35	_seanc_	thread safe aside, when would you need to stack a value?
23:35	technomancy	_seanc_: if you're pretty-printing, you would bind the current indentation level, for example
23:36	_rata_	for example when you want to redirect standard output in some function calls
23:36	duncanm	i feel kinda stupid today
23:36	ohpauleez	duncanm: http://gist.github.com/652858
23:37	_seanc_	Interesting. So it keeps the new value for the duration of that execution then changes back?
23:37	_rata_	yes
23:37	_rata_	you bind it, call some functions and inside that functions standard output will be redirected
23:37	_seanc_	Fascinating
23:37	duncanm	whoa
23:37	duncanm	does *1 work?
23:37	_seanc_	So it's like a dependency injection on a per function basis almost
23:37	ohpauleez	yes
23:37	duncanm	oh sweet
23:37	duncanm	i didn't know that
23:37	ohpauleez	1 2 and *3
23:37	technomancy	,*e
23:37	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/*e is unbound.
23:38	technomancy	,botsmack
23:38	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: botsmack in this context
23:38	ohpauleez	also, I left out one line, where I (def num-of-cores 2)
23:38	technomancy	~botsmack
23:38	clojurebot	Owww!
23:38	defn	evening folks
23:38	defn	clojurebot: hey
23:38	clojurebot	hey is for horses
23:38	defn	clojurebot: horses?
23:38	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
23:38	ohpauleez	haha
23:38	defn	lol
23:49	ohpauleez	duncanm: How are things working out?
23:49	duncanm	ohpauleez: i got it running now
23:50	ohpauleez	perfect!
23:50	duncanm	i just have map and future
23:50	duncanm	ohpauleez: and i chunk into 4 futures
23:50	duncanm	inside each, i have a doseq
23:50	ohpauleez	sweet
23:50	duncanm	i dunno if that's optimal use of my hardware, though
23:50	duncanm	i have a 2 yo Mac Pro at work, i have 8 cores here
23:50	ohpauleez	chunk it into 10 pieces
23:51	duncanm	ohpauleez: so this is silly, but the total number isn't divisible by 10, so partition doesn't work....
23:51	ohpauleez	partition-all
23:51	ohpauleez	is what you want
23:52	duncanm	oh wow
23:52	ohpauleez	which will have 9 full pieces, and one slightly smaller part