#clojure – 2010-10-20

2010-10-20

00:28	notsonerdysunny	Hello everybody...
00:28	notsonerdysunny	Good Morning
00:29	notsonerdysunny	I remember reading that the concept of "private" is only convention .. and it is easy to acess the namespace private vars with some special syntax
00:29	notsonerdysunny	can anybody correct me If I am wrong?
00:29	notsonerdysunny	or can you tell me how to acess the private vars..
00:30	notsonerdysunny	it can very usefull from the repl
00:32	zkim	notsonerdysunny: I think it's #'foo/private-var
00:50	LauJensen	Morning guys
00:59	notsonerdysunny	zkim: I don't quiet get it
00:59	notsonerdysunny	let us say I am in namespace user
00:59	notsonerdysunny	and spread is a private variable in 'clojure.core
01:00	notsonerdysunny	actually spread is a function
01:00	notsonerdysunny	can you show me how to call it from 'user namespace
01:00	zkim	notsonerdysunny: so I believe #'clojure.core/spread would work
01:00	zkim	,(doc spread)
01:00	clojurebot	No entiendo
01:00	zkim	duh
01:00	zkim	(#'clojure.core/spread arg1 arg2)
01:00	zkim	,(#'clojure.core/spread arg1 arg2)
01:00	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: arg1 in this context
01:01	zkim	,(#'clojure.core/spread 1)
01:01	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
01:01	zkim	what's the arglist for spread?
01:01	zkim	,(#'clojure.core/spread [1 2 3])
01:01	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
01:01	zkim	ugh
01:02	zkim	notsonerdysunny: well, you get the idea
01:03	notsonerdysunny	zkim .. I wan't to run the (clojure.rep/source #'clojure.core/spread)
01:03	notsonerdysunny	zkim .. I wan't to run the (clojure.repl/source #'clojure.core/spread)
01:03	notsonerdysunny	zkim: but does not seem to work
01:03	zkim	notsonerdysunny: i think source takes a symbol?
01:04	zkim	,(doc source)
01:04	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source;[[n]]; Prints the source code for the given symbol, if it can find it. This requires that the symbol resolve to a Var defined in a namespace for which the .clj is in the classpath. Example: (source filter)"
01:04	notsonerdysunny	yea thanks zkim
01:04	notsonerdysunny	it does work..
01:53	duncanm_	dum de dum
01:57	Derander	duncanm: my brother's name is duncan.
01:57	Derander	our last name is Moreland
01:57	Derander	are you my brother?
01:58	duncanm	no i'm not
01:58	Derander	just checking
02:24	_rata_	hi
02:33	G0SUB	_rata_
02:33	_rata_	G0SUB, what?
02:33	G0SUB	_rata_: I just greeted you :)
02:34	_rata_	hi :)
02:34	_rata_	can an agent contain refs?
02:37	G0SUB	_rata_: yes.
02:38	_rata_	thanks
02:38	tomoj	Licenser: yo
02:38	tomoj	err
02:38	tomoj	LauJensen: yo
02:39	Licenser	hi tomoj
02:39	_rata_	is there a predicate that returns true for lists, vectors, sets and seqs, but not for maps?
02:39	tomoj	sorry misping
02:42	tomoj	sets aren't sequential
02:42	tomoj	why do you want such a predicate? just curious
02:43	G0SUB	,(map #(and (coll? %) (not (map? %))) [[1 2 3] '(1 2 3) #{1 2 3} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} (seq [1 2 3])])
02:43	clojurebot	(true true true false true)
02:44	G0SUB	_rata_: ^^^^^
02:44	_rata_	G0SUB, thanks again :)
02:45	G0SUB	_rata_: you are welcome.
02:46	_rata_	tomoj, because I'm writing a function called choice that for maps selects one key based on the weights given by the values, but when the function receives another collection, I want it to assume a uniform distribution
02:47	tomoj	#(and (not (map? %)) (coll? %)) ?
02:48	_rata_	tomoj, yes, that works
02:49	tomoj	hmm
02:49	tomoj	what if you make a Distribution protocol and implement it for maps and collections?
02:49	tomoj	then you could create custom distributions with reify or whatever too
02:49	_rata_	I don't think such a basic function requires so much sophistication
02:50	tomoj	sure, I was thinking a suite of distribution-related functions
02:50	_rata_	It's just an appendix of the program... it's indeed in the misc.clj file :)
02:50	_rata_	yeah, that would be great
02:50	tomoj	I guess incanter already has something like that
02:51	_rata_	I suppose clojure.contrib.probabilities.finite-distributions is for that, but could understand it
02:54	_rata_	s/could/couldn't/
02:54	sexpbot	<_rata_> I suppose clojure.contrib.probabilities.finite-distributions is for that, but couldn't understand it
02:58	LauJensen	Hi tomoj, hows the screencast coming along?
02:58	tomoj	that's what I was going to ask you about
02:58	G0SUB	LauJensen: are you coming to Conj?
02:58	LauJensen	G0SUB: Unfortunately not - I fly out to Frankfurt this monday for Conj Labs
02:58	tomoj	I'm working on some code now and I was considering recording so I can go back and look and what I was doing
02:59	G0SUB	LauJensen: what about cgrand?
02:59	LauJensen	G0SUB: He'll be there
02:59	G0SUB	LauJensen: OK. Will miss you at the Conj.
02:59	LauJensen	Yea dont rub it in - I already feel guilty for not going :)
02:59	tomoj	hmm.. guess I will watch and try to clip out parts that look good
03:00	tomoj	the point to try to get a rough guess about whether my paredit chops are good enough yet for your satisfaction :)
03:00	LauJensen	hehe - Yea Im really hoping I'd be impressed. Its been a while since I added something new to my toolbox
03:02	tomoj	if you were not impressed, I am enough of a zealot to believe that it's only because I haven't yet achieved paredit nirvana
03:02	tomoj	(and thus should delay any screencasting)
03:03	Derander	I only use paredit for slurp, barf and raise
03:03	Derander	I am underutilizing it
03:03	G0SUB	LauJensen: hehe
03:03	LauJensen	Derander: Makes me barf as well
03:03	Derander	aw
03:03	LauJensen	tomoj: Well - I'd be happy to do a preview of it before you go live :)
03:03	tomoj	thanks
03:04	LauJensen	And note, Im not an unfair critic - If its cool, I'll use it, if not, I'll tell you why I think I have a better alternative
03:04	G0SUB	tomoj: are you doing a paredit screencast?
03:05	tomoj	I'd like to
03:05	Derander	I'd like to watch
03:06	G0SUB	tomoj: cool. let me know if you need any help in choosing what features to show :)
03:07	TobiasRaeder	morning everybody
03:09	tomoj	my notes so far https://gist.github.com/c811ee55a2a136291f7c
03:09	tomoj	er, https://gist.github.com/raw/c811ee55a2a136291f7c/34514ed44e968fa754d57c486741a04fe2feeb36/paredit.org
03:09	tomoj	eh, guess gist does a decent job at that .org
03:39	esj	Morning good people
03:41	lypanov	morning esj
04:02	lpetit	hi there
04:03	esj	morning brother-of-lau
04:04	LauJensen	Morning guys
04:07	raek	how is "Lau" pronounced in Danish anyway? With a diphthong like German "au"? With or without stød?
04:28	tomoj	hmm.. I just felt like I wanted to extend a protocol to [Ljava.lang.Byte;
04:28	tomoj	does that even make any sense?
04:28	hiredman	no
04:29	hiredman	if you are going to extend it something it should be [B
04:29	tomoj	oh
04:29	tomoj	so can you extend to [B
04:30	LauJensen	raek: Its not too different from "wow" :)
04:32	esj	morning Lau, didn't see you wander in
04:33	LauJensen	Morning esj. I greeted you 30 minutes ago when you walked in :)
04:33	tomoj	aha
04:33	esj	LauJensen: no, that was your brother, Laurent.
04:33	tomoj	you can do (extend-protocol FooProtocol io/byte-array-type (...))
04:33	esj	anyway....
04:49	LauJensen	Anybody here with some design-fu and 5 minutes to spare?
05:44	ossareh	will something like this cause a memory issue eventually? (defn loop-with-delay [delay-ms fn] (Thread/sleep delay-ms) (fn) (loop-with-delay delay-ms fn)) (loop-with-delay 1000 #(prn "hello"))
05:45	ossareh	memory or fd issue..
05:47	Chousuke_	ossareh: use recur instead
05:47	LauJensen	ossareh: Its similar to this
05:47	LauJensen	,(letfn [(tst [] (tst))] (tst))
05:47	clojurebot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
05:47	LauJensen	And yes it will overflow due to a limitation of the JVM. Do what Chousuke_ said instead
05:47	LauJensen	,(letfn [(tst [] (tst))] (recur))
05:47	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
05:47	lypanov	anyone other than me want a llvm based clojure after all the crap with oracle?
05:48	Chousuke	lypanov: wait, what.
05:48	Chousuke	LauJensen: even
05:48	lypanov	(yeah i know it has a huge downside - no java integration)
05:48	Chousuke	LauJensen: why did that time out
05:48	Chousuke	why did it even work?
05:48	LauJensen	Chousuke: Because clojurebot kills it if it doesnt return after 10 secs. It will never return
05:48	ossareh	Chousuke: thanks! (and LauJensen too)
05:49	Chousuke	LauJensen: no but you made a function that calls itself.
05:49	Chousuke	LauJensen: then you just called recur
05:49	Chousuke	where's the recur target?
05:49	Chousuke	what.
05:49	LauJensen	Chousuke: The function itself or loop constitute recur targets
05:49	LauJensen	(defn call-me [] (do stuff) (recur)) calls itself
05:49	Chousuke	LauJensen: but you don't call recur within the function
05:50	LauJensen	hehe, right, I misplaced it
05:50	LauJensen	,(recur)
05:50	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
05:50	Chousuke	huh
05:51	lpetit	,(macroexpand-1 '(recur))
05:51	clojurebot	(recur)
05:51	lpetit	hum
05:51	ossareh	(doc recur)
05:51	clojurebot	Pardon?
05:51	ossareh	,(doc recur)
05:51	clojurebot	No entiendo
05:51	lpetit	,(doc recur)
05:51	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
05:51	lpetit	argh
05:51	lypanov	lol
05:52	ossareh	lypanov: what crap with oracle?
05:52	lypanov	ossareh: suing google over dalvik for example.
05:52	lypanov	i'm just waiting for who is next.
05:52	Chousuke	recur is a special form
05:53	Chousuke	so the doc for it is on the website
05:53	lypanov	and seeing what oracle did with openoffice, i trust them even less than i trusted sun to keep the jvm going well.
05:54	lypanov	ossareh: ah, already discussed? one sentence conclusion would be fine :)
05:54	LauJensen	lypanov: What happend to openoffice?
05:55	lypanov	LauJensen: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/10/oracle-wants-libreoffice-members-to-leave-ooo-council.ars
05:56	ossareh	lypanov: to the best of my knowledge the google / dalvik situation has no baring on any languages running on the JVM. dalvik is cross compiler from java code to another VM. Oracle are suing google because they beleive some IP is being infringed upon in the dalvik VM. (disclaimer: this is what I get from SF coffee shops - I've not read much about it)
05:57	lypanov	google went dalvik route exactly so they could ignore then suns control over what java is.
05:57	LauJensen	lypanov: Well. Oracle has always been clear in their intent. I dont think they can kill Java though.
05:58	lypanov	they own java and with the dalvik move they made that clear.
05:58	lypanov	given the openoffice move, whats next, attacks on icetea?
05:59	lypanov	ossareh: btw afaiu it more relates to the use of the java language. so yes, i agree with you, it has nothing to do with clojure.
05:59	lypanov	i
05:59	lypanov	oops
05:59	lypanov	i just don't think oracle is going to continue the jvm in a way we might like seeing 3 years from now. and i don't want to use mono... so yeah.
06:02	ossareh	LauJensen: that worked very nicely - thanks
06:02	LauJensen	np
06:09	notsonerdysunny	how would one compare two strings .. is there a native function?
06:09	notsonerdysunny	for ordering
06:10	esj	i'd use the java .equals
06:11	esj	but probably a better way exists
06:11	LauJensen	,(sort [ "cde" "abc"])
06:11	clojurebot	("abc" "cde")
06:11	jarpiain	,(doc compare)
06:11	clojurebot	"([x y]); Comparator. Returns a negative number, zero, or a positive number when x is logically 'less than', 'equal to', or 'greater than' y. Same as Java x.compareTo(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. x must implement Comparable"
06:12	LauJensen	or the other way around
06:12	LauJensen	,(sort #(compare %2 %1) [ "cde" "abc"])
06:12	clojurebot	("cde" "abc")
06:12	LauJensen	notsonerdysunny: good enough for ordering?
06:13	esj	pretty slick
06:16	cgrand	little known feature, all fns are potential comparator, Clojure knows ho wto turn an order fn in a comparator
06:16	cgrand	,(sort < [5 4 8])
06:16	clojurebot	(4 5 8)
06:16	cgrand	,(sort > [5 4 8])
06:16	clojurebot	(8 5 4)
06:17	notsonerdysunny	(compare [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
06:17	notsonerdysunny	,(compare [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
06:17	clojurebot	-1
06:17	notsonerdysunny	thanks LauJensen
06:18	LauJensen	np
06:18	cgrand	,(sort (comp - compare) [ "cde" "abc"])
06:18	clojurebot	("cde" "abc")
06:18	cgrand	(comp - XXX) reverse the XXX comparator
06:18	notsonerdysunny	cool .. :)
06:19	notsonerdysunny	8)
06:19	notsonerdysunny	8]
06:19	notsonerdysunny	8*)
06:33	noidi	,(meta (with-meta 'foo {:type :foo}))
06:33	clojurebot	{:type :foo}
06:34	noidi	,(meta ^{:type :foo} 'foo)
06:34	clojurebot	nil
06:34	noidi	why the difference?
06:34	Chousuke	noidi: you're putting the metadata on the list (quote foo), not on the symbol foo
06:34	noidi	what makes it even stranger is that the reader macro works e.g. for vectors
06:35	noidi	Chousuke, ah, of course :)
06:35	Chousuke	noidi: since it's read-time.
06:35	Chousuke	,(meta '^{:type :foo} foo)
06:35	clojurebot	{:type :foo}
06:37	noidi	thanks
06:43	notsonerdysunny	(doc ^)
06:43	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
06:43	notsonerdysunny	(doc ^ )
06:43	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
06:43	notsonerdysunny	(doc '^ )
06:43	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
06:43	notsonerdysunny	,(doc '^ )
06:43	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
06:45	noidi	notsonerdysunny, http://clojure.org/reader
06:45	noidi	under "macro characters"
06:47	notsonerdysunny	thanks noidi ..
07:00	noidi	"Use the bang! only for things not safe in an STM transaction."
07:00	noidi	has this been elaborated somewhere?
07:00	noidi	i.e. what things are and are not safe
07:01	Chousuke	noidi: referentially transparent functions are safe
07:01	noidi	For example, I have a function that adds an event listener to a Swing widget. Should I add the bang or not?
07:01	Chousuke	probably.
07:02	Chousuke	though I suppose if the unsafeness is obvious, you might not have to. :/
07:02	noidi	I think that guideline would be simpler if it talked about side effects and not STM transactions
07:02	noidi	but apparently some side effects are OK, since e.g. println does not end in a bang
07:02	Chousuke	I suppose the ! is meant to convey "this function looks safe, but is not!"
07:03	noidi	yeah, makes sense
07:07	noidi	so maybe the rule of thumb for code not part of clojure itself could be "end the function name in a bang iff it calls a function ending in a bang"
07:09	Chousuke	or if it does io but that is not immediately obvious
07:10	LauJensen	Chousuke: if thats the case then add-actionlistener doesnt require a bang, but actionlistener! would
07:13	Chousuke	maybe
07:13	Chousuke	or maybe it's just preference :P
07:15	noidi	I still think that either the rule is not detailed enough, or println & co are named wrong
07:16	noidi	the "not safe" part is quite ambiguous. is incorrect operation "not safe"? or only the loss of data?
07:17	Chousuke	well, I suppose println is safe because it only prints things multiple times
07:17	Chousuke	which usually doesn't affect anythign
07:17	Chousuke	but adding even listeners more than once probably is not safe
07:17	Chousuke	event*
07:18	Chousuke	writing to a file certainly is not safe.
07:18	noidi	yeah
07:19	noidi	println in a transaction is a bug, but it doesn't get the program (or the rest of the system) in a messed up state (unless your doing something very very wrong, like driving another program with commands in your stdout:)
07:26	noidi	So maybe the revised rule of thumb could be "End the function name in a bang! iff either of the following is true: a) The function calls a function ending in a bang. b) Someone will get in trouble if the function gets called 1000 times when you only asked for one." :)
07:30	_Vi	Why "(complie qqq)" fails with just "No such file or directory" when there is no "classes" directory? I think it should create one automatically or explicitly tell user to do it.
07:40	LauJensen	Im very happy to announce that Conj Labs is expanding our operation to new areas, read more about it on our new website http://conj-labs.eu/ or here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1810777
07:41	LauJensen	Big thanks to lypanov and esj for helping with the site :)
07:41	lypanov	http://www.conj-labs.eu/
07:42	lypanov	(first one didn't work for me, saw the old one, could just be silly safari)
07:43	LauJensen	lypanov: its your cache
07:44	lypanov	aye, seems to be! congratz on new site!
07:45	LauJensen	Thanks!
07:47	TobiasRaeder	@LauJEnsen Grats, sounds really nice and @lypanov me too, well might have to opportunity to visit the next conj-lab, a bit depending on the location :D
07:48	LauJensen	TobiasRaeder: Next lab is in London, pretty close to you
07:48	TobiasRaeder	@LauJensen Frankfurt is about the same i guess but yeah. Nice when is it?
07:48	TobiasRaeder	If my company doesn't pay i might just put some cash aside for it ;)
07:48	LauJensen	TobiasRaeder: All details are on the site, November30-December2
07:48	TobiasRaeder	ah okay, didnt see the new date already announced
07:49	LauJensen	Its just out today
07:49	LauJensen	Just now actually :)(
07:49	TobiasRaeder	:)
07:53	cemerick	LauJensen: European domination around the corner, it seems? :-)
07:53	cemerick	Congrats :-)
07:53	LauJensen	cemerick: Thanks buddy
07:54	Raynes	Morning cemerick.
07:54	cemerick	Morning
07:54	Raynes	And LauJensen <3
07:54	esj	Hello Raynes
07:54	cemerick	Raynes: Damn, it's Raynes on a schedule! ;-)
07:55	Raynes	I woke up before the alarm went off, thankfully.
07:55	Raynes	I hate waking up to an alarm.
07:55	Raynes	Might as well slap me in the face to wake me up.
07:55	Raynes	:\
07:56	cemerick	Mmm, radio is always better.
07:56	lypanov	that reminds me, need to get one of those big light things.
07:56	esj	this year I finally cracked and got one of those slowly lighting lamp guys. Its great.
07:56	esj	comes with canned bird song too :)
07:56	Raynes	I set my phone's alarm tone to a Rooster.
07:56	Raynes	It only makes sense, living in Alabama and all.
07:57	cemerick	Raynes: That sounds horrible :-P
07:57	@rhickey	sometimes way too early
07:57	Raynes	Oh, trust me, it is. Loud.
07:57	cemerick	rhickey: I can sympathize with that one.
07:58	cemerick	Some days, I quite envy folks that trickle into work @ 9AM, after having gone to breakfast, or picking up a coffee and a paper or something.
08:00	chouser	working from home, from asleep to typing in IRC in ~2 minutes
08:01	chouser	though calling that "work" is of course a stretch
08:18	Drakeson	Where did clojure.contrib.io/spit go?
08:20	Raynes	Core.
08:21	lpetit	(doc spit)
08:21	clojurebot	"([f content & options]); Opposite of slurp. Opens f with writer, writes content, then closes f. Options passed to clojure.java.io/writer."
08:21	lpetit	(ns-resolve 'spit)
08:21	lpetit	,(resolve 'spit)
08:21	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/spit
08:22	Drakeson	Raynes: oh, cool.
08:22	Drakeson	thanks
08:23	Drakeson	,(resolve 'slurp*)
08:23	clojurebot	nil
08:24	Drakeson	is clojure.core/slurp now similar to clojure.contrib.io/slurp*?
08:26	Raynes	Drakeson: Yeah. It uses clojure.java.io/reader.
08:26	Raynes	So, it can slurp URLs and such.
08:27	Drakeson	I remember slurp was getting the encoding wrong. does clojure.java.io/reader care about encoding of the file?
08:27	Drakeson	something like reading utf-8 as latin-1
08:31	LauJensen	in .io you could set that as an argument
08:31	tomoj	what is the difference between clojure.java.io and clojure.contrib.io?
08:32	Drakeson	tomoj: the latter is gone
08:32	tomoj	oh, I see
08:32	tomoj	gone in 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT ?
08:32	Drakeson	yes
08:32	tomoj	shoot
08:32	Drakeson	it's for the better
08:33	Drakeson	spit is the new io/spit, slurp is the new io/slurp*, ...
08:34	tomoj	hmm
08:34	tomoj	I don't see io/spit or io/slurp* in 1.2.0, are they only in the snapshot?
08:34	Drakeson	yes.
08:35	Drakeson	oh, wait, what?
08:35	tomoj	I don't see clojure.java.io/spit or clojure.java.io/slurp*
08:37	tomoj	oh, I misparsed
08:37	tomoj	got it
08:37	Drakeson	no more (:require [clojure.contrib.io :as io]) on top of every ns
08:38	cemerick	contrib.io still exists, it's just a bit more sparse now
08:38	Chousuke	Instead it will be clojure.java.io :P
08:38	@rhickey	Tag line of the day - The CA is a hurdle, get over it!
08:39	cemerick	rhickey: should set that as the channel topic or something :-P
08:40	@rhickey	cemerick: I like the idea of having CAs at the Conj
08:40	cemerick	rhickey: I suggested it to wooby a while back -- haven't heard whether it's a go or not
08:40	cemerick	presumably, you could print off a stack and leave them on the sponsor table or whatever
08:41	cemerick	(in the worst case, that is)
08:42	Drakeson	I wish I could put (:require [clojure .string .xml ...]) to mean (:require [clojure [string :as string] [xml :as xml] ...])
08:43	cemerick	some flavour of auto-aliasing has been discussed at length before
08:43	cemerick	it's a bit of a gnarly problem
08:44	@rhickey	cemerick: I'm sure we can, but I'm not carrying blank CAs on the plane - we can print some at the office there I presume
08:44	cemerick	heh, yeah, I wouldn't have suggested differently
08:45	@rhickey	cemerick: so, it's a go
08:45	cemerick	excellent
08:45	@rhickey	Many Conj attendees already have CAs
08:45	cemerick	Yeah, I'd figured. Might as well get it to 100%.
08:47	@rhickey	not really a goal - I only want people who want to contribute. CAs on their own are just more work for me
08:48	lpetit	rhickey: so how many CA to print, btw ;-)
08:48	Emeka	hi
08:48	@rhickey	we can get show of hands day one and print as needed
08:49	kryft	CA?
08:49	clojurebot	CA is Contributor Agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
08:49	kryft	Ah
08:49	kryft	Well, that was handy.
08:49	kryft	I wish the bot could handle all my stupid questions. :)
08:49	Chousuke	heh
08:50	kryft	Ah, I finally have time to read JoC again. Chapters 6 and 7 (functional programming and laziness) are coming up. drool
08:51	kryft	I can't wait to start coding.
08:51	kryft	Also, I can't wait to replace matlab with incanter. ;)
08:53	jave	hello
08:54	TobiasRaeder	hi :)
08:54	jave	I'm trying to make a macro that wraps the deftemplate macro in enlive
08:55	jave	but aparently I dont understand macros, so I have some issues
08:56	TobiasRaeder	just go ahead and make a gist or pastepin of the code you got or explain what your exactly trying
08:56	jave	`(deftemplate x "x.svg" [] ~@(y "a" :1 :2))
08:56	jave	deftemplate is an enlive macro
08:57	jave	I want to mace a macro "y" that returns a list like ([:1] (lala) [:2] (lala2))
08:58	jave	and have it be spliced into the arg list of deftemplate
08:58	jave	the "y" macro seems to work when I examine the output with macroexpand
09:02	TobiasRaeder	@jave can you make a gist with your macro etc?
09:02	TobiasRaeder	@jave just to have the complete code at one glance
09:02	jave	hmm ill try
09:03	jave	havent used gist before, but its basicaly a paste service?
09:04	TobiasRaeder	yeah
09:04	TobiasRaeder	or pastebin or whatever you feel comfortable with
09:04	jave	yes
09:05	Raynes	$whatis gist
09:05	sexpbot	gist = http://gist.github.com
09:06	Raynes	It also has Clojure highlighting.
09:06	Raynes	But then again, lots of things do these days.
09:08	jave	http://gist.github.com/636376
09:08	jave	so basically I just want to make a macro that uses macros to build long argument lists
09:09	jave	but aparantly I'm missing something
09:10	jave	it feels like the backtick operator doesnt work the way I'm used to
09:11	chouser	jave: I don't think you need ~ on any of the right-hand forms
09:12	jave	hmm yes ive been experimenting with that. the svgtemplate macro wants function object there so it felt better to evaluate them there. but I dont think its necessary either, no
09:14	chouser	you generally only use ~ when you have some data local to the macro itself that you want to insert into the form your macro is generating
09:15	jave	ah
09:15	chouser	but, does that fix your problem?
09:15	jave	no
09:15	jave	problem is I get stuff like "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (15) passed to: PersistentVector (NO_SOURCE_FILE:157)" that doesnt tell me anything
09:16	Raynes	It tells you a lot, actually.
09:16	chouser	yeah, I just spotted that
09:16	jave	hmm oh?
09:16	Raynes	$ ([1 2 3] 3 4 3)
09:16	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: PersistentVector
09:16	Raynes	Something like that is happening somewhere.
09:17	chouser	overview-unit appears to expand to a list whose first element is a vector, like Raynes just showed.
09:17	Raynes	A place where a vector is being used as a function and being passed the wrong number of arguments.
09:17	Raynes	Vectors actually are functions, but they only take one argument (an index to look up within themselves).
09:17	jave	so, thats probably what I'm not getting then
09:17	Raynes	$ ([1 2 3] 1)
09:17	sexpbot	⟹ 2
09:18	jave	I wanted to splice in a list like that in another list with ~@
09:18	jave	but thats not quite the right way then?
09:21	chouser	it might work for overview-unit to simply be a function
09:22	chouser	when a macro expands to a list, Clojure will try to evaluate that list. When a function returns a list, you have just a list
09:26	jave	uhm, now it works, sort of
09:26	gary_poster	maravillas: I'm around now :-)
09:47	s450r1	rhickey: I'm glad to read you're interested in taking CAs at the Conj. I have mine ready to turn in :-)
09:47	_fogus	chouser: That sounds very Zen!
10:00	esj	_fogus: good point, macros and Zen have the same root: suffering :)
10:01	_fogus	esj: Quote of the day!
10:02	esj	:)
10:04	Raynes	$max
10:04	sexpbot	The most users ever in #clojure is 289
10:04	Raynes	~max
10:06	Raynes	$max
10:06	sexpbot	The most users ever in #clojure is 290
10:06	Raynes	Oh boy, it's working.
10:06	cemerick	hrm, clojurebot had it up in the mid 300's a while back
10:06	Raynes	cemerick: I just now wrote that plugin.
10:06	Raynes	So, the maximum users right now is all it's ever known.
10:07	cemerick	I figured...but if we can get the old number to plug in as the real known basis... :-)
10:07	cemerick	~max
10:07	cemerick	feh
10:07	Raynes	clojurebot: ping
10:07	clojurebot	PONG!
10:07	cemerick	clojurebot has been vacillating between genius and short-bus lately.
10:08	Raynes	I thought you said you wouldn't be around today?
10:08	Raynes	I kind of wish I hadn't have packed yesterday. I have absolutely nothing to do but sit on nails and wait for tomorrow morning. :\
10:08	cemerick	plans changed, I get to bother all of you for another 7 hours or so
10:09	lypanov	Raynes: go port clojure to llvm.
10:09	lypanov	Raynes: and stand up. nails are bad.
10:09	Raynes	Whoa, horsey. I only have a day. ;)
10:10	lypanov	do half of it then! :P
10:10	Raynes	:p
10:10	lypanov	the other half can be finished over the coming 6 months
10:12	cemerick	clojure-on-chicken still seems like a better target
10:12	Raynes	Bawk
10:15	lypanov	cemerick: on llvm has the advantage that in short term java libs can also run atop of vmkit and transition the rest over time
10:15	Raynes	lypanov: You never actually sent a blank line.
10:16	lypanov	even worse. i see one.
10:16	Raynes	The IRC protocol doesn't accept blank messages.
10:16	lypanov	can't reproduce. i either entered a space or no one sees what i see and colloquy is smoking something good.
10:21	cemerick	lypanov: I don't think "transitioning" java libs is a realistic option/objective.
10:21	lypanov	then no transition, keep using them. but still requires vmkit no?
10:24	cemerick	Only if using jvm libs is an absolute requirement. ClojureCLR certainly doesn't use them.
10:24	lypanov	i'm confused.
10:24	cemerick	Thus the chicken/gambit target, both of which have rich libraries.
10:24	cemerick	Or ObjC.
10:24	lypanov	what do you mean by "transitioning" libs isn't a realistic objective then if you don't think we need existing jars?
10:26	cemerick	We're talking past each other. You suggested llvm as a better host option because we can use jvm libs, which I don't really think is a driving consideration for a Clojure host platform.
10:26	cemerick	e.g. if you need jvm libs, use the....jvm :-)
10:26	lypanov	ah no, i was just saying that llvm has the added bonus that current code would actually work.
10:27	lypanov	i don't personally feel that in the long term the java side of things is at all important.
10:27	cemerick	I think it's critically important, if you care about the jvm or its libs. :-)
10:27	lypanov	but good bindings to both existing c libs, and existing jvm libs, is just dang useful.
10:27	cemerick	If not, then you might as well target a platform that is maximally suitable.
10:28	lypanov	agreed. so, llvm :P
10:28	cemerick	hah
10:29	lypanov	don't know enough on chicken to comment.
10:29	cemerick	As schemes go, it's pretty damn nice. Compiles to C as an intermediary.
10:29	cemerick	There was a fellow from apple in here a while back.
10:30	cemerick	I half suspect the next impl will come out of nowhere -- someone knocking on it for a year quietly to avoid the bikeshedding, etc.
10:30	lypanov	scala llvm just randomly appeared.
10:32	cemerick	lypanov: there's scala on llvm? Link?
10:32	cemerick	I see some msg board chatter about the possibility, but nothing concrete.
10:32	lypanov	http://github.com/greedy/scala
10:34	cemerick	thanks; very early days, then
10:34	lypanov	nod
10:34	lypanov	and not much activity
10:37	lypanov	cemerick: http://github.com/greedy/scala/blob/HEAD/README.llvm
10:37	lypanov	the remaining stuff looks like fun :P
10:37	cemerick	Yeah, I just skimmed that :-)
10:38	cemerick	Aside from the geek porn aspect, I don't have any real use-case for a non-JVM/CLR Clojure, so it's all a bit academic.
10:38	Chousuke	something that starts up really quickly would be nice
10:39	chouser	Chousuke: amen
10:39	chouser	and better access to unix
10:39	lypanov	and c libs bindings that don't make you want to kill bunnies
10:39	Raynes	chouser: Your finger trees talk is on the first day of the Conj isn't?
10:39	Raynes	I'm pretty eager to hear that one.
10:39	chouser	yep
10:39	cemerick	I knew that would bring out the command-line jockeys...
10:39	Raynes	Goody.
10:39	chouser	cemerick: :-)
10:39	Chousuke	chouser: what's the status of your FT implementation anyway?
10:40	chouser	Chousuke: I estimate about 2 days from being done enough to talk about. :-P
10:40	Chousuke	heh :P
10:40	cemerick	hell, what about a parrot/perl 6 hosting of clojure?
10:40	Raynes	Parrot would be fun.
10:40	cemerick	That might actually be attractive. tons of libs.
10:41	Raynes	I've been meaning to play with Perl 6. I wish they had threads implemented though. :(
10:41	cemerick	Wow, they've really got the duke nukem forever release schedule down pat, huh?
10:41	Raynes	They're doing Star releases every month now.
10:41	Chousuke	well, DNF came through. :D
10:41	cemerick	I've no idea what that means.
10:42	Chousuke	and it looks awesome enough.
10:42	Raynes	Star releases being "Okay for you to use, but be careful and expect bunnies to be killed."
10:42	cemerick	ah
10:42	cemerick	and none of the frills included…like threads? :-O
10:42	Raynes	No threads yet.
10:43	Raynes	cemerick: http://rakudo.org/announce/rakudo-star/2010.09
10:43	Raynes	No macros yet either.
10:46	chouser	met some people at strange loop who have a lot of rather well-engineered perl5 code to manipulate human genome data
10:47	chouser	and who work with biology folks who have been forced to learn perl5 to do their jobs, and aren't really interested in learning something else
10:47	lypanov	bah. automatically rewriting perl5 into clojure can't be any more difficult that human language parsing. i'd say just automate it.
10:47	lypanov	poor biologists :(
10:48	cemerick	I was sorta excited about the prospect of perl 6 until clojure came along
10:48	chouser	so, they're hoping perl6 actually flies sometime soon
10:48	Raynes	This is why we can't have nice things.
10:48	chouser	cemerick: me too. now I'm ruined for any language with mutable collections or locals
10:49	cemerick	chouser: clojure on perl.....
10:50	chouser	perl6's macros and grammar manipulation were the main thing catching my eye
10:50	lypanov	chouser: it screamed "20 year project" to me
10:51	lypanov	the specs took longer to write than i imagine most of clojure impl took.
10:57	chouser	hah! the mongodb query language is (mostly) homoiconic
10:57	lypanov	true. just data structures.
10:58	chouser	right
11:09	s450r1	chouser: I was pretty interested in Perl 6 when they first started talking about it as well, but then encountered Ruby, and decided not to wait. Now, clojure's come along and totally ruined me ;-)
11:12	s450r1	... and I have to use C# 1.1 at work...
11:13	chouser	but you can do macros in C#, can't you? AST re-writing?
11:17	edoloughlin	Cake looks nice. The persistent JVM would be a boon for those of us without the time to learn both Emacs and Clojure at the same time!
11:24	lypanov	edoloughlin: its helping me a lot. vimclojure (if you have experience there) isn't bad at all either.
11:34	s450r1	chouser: ah, you made me look again... as far as I can tell, you can do run-time macros in C# 3.0 and later, but not compile-time macros. When I looked a couple years ago, I seriously considered the Boo programming language which does have compile time macros, but they were dropping .NET 1.1 support :-p
11:34	edoloughlin	I'm using Eclipse & Counterclockwise. Mylyn is its killer feature.
11:36	s450r1	I console myself with the thought that we'll probably be moving to .NET 3.5 (maybe 4) within a year, and that hopefully Clojure for .NET will be more production-ready by then.
11:38	chouser	s450r1: huh, I don't know what a run-time macro would be
11:43	s450r1	chouser: I got that phrase from http://themechanicalbride.blogspot.com/2007/03/runtime-macros-in-c-30.html
11:47	lpetit	chouser: isn't runtime macros somehow always reevaluated when called, something like that ? (so that you don't have to recompile every dependent code when you change a macro ?
12:00	chouser	lpetit: hm, dunno
12:00	Drakeson	how does one do with-local-vars now?
12:05	bhenry	https://gist.github.com/8dbce1459f942b64c3a2 this makes output for a spreadsheet. i'm using ring. can i send the report as it fetches without holding onto the head? as it is now, a large report would create a giant string and send it to the browser all at once.
12:16	s450r1	lpetit: that seems to be case for the link I posted above. The author created a Macro.GetValue method that takes an Expression tree that automatically gets converted from a "lambda function", manipulates that Expression tree, compiles the manipulated Expression tree into a function and runs the function.
12:18	lpetit	s450r1: yep. I think CL has runtime macros, too ..
12:24	chouser	s450r1: but if you can keep a refernce to that compiled expression and use it each time, that's essentially the same as clojure macros, isn't it? code manipulated and compiled once, then reused as needed at runtime
12:26	jonasen	I can't get ants.clj to run with latest clojure. It fails on (send-off animator animation). Is it just me and my setup or can someone confirm this?
12:27	Kruppe	s450r1: Could I get a link to what you guys are talking about? Sounds interesting but I missed the link.
12:27	dnolen	jonasen: latest clojure like 1.2.0?
12:27	s450r1	Kruppe: http://themechanicalbride.blogspot.com/2007/03/runtime-macros-in-c-30.html
12:27	jonasen	dnolen: no, 1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT
12:28	jonasen	according to (agent-error animator) it's a NPE
12:28	Kruppe	s450r1: thanks :)
12:28	dnolen	jonasen: that's under some big changes, probably should wait for things to settle down.
12:31	dnolen	jonasen: or build your own 1.3.0 from a rev prior to the dynamic stuff.
12:34	SirNick	Is there any way to use defrecord and overwrite the seq method? Doing it directly results in a duplicate method error
12:34	chouser	if your defrecord isn't going to be a regular map, you want deftype instead
12:35	chouser	Hm... "C# cannot translate arbitrary expressions or code blocks into data, only lambda functions so we will need to nest our expression inside one"
12:36	SirNick	chouser: but then I won't get the hashCode function or being able to use assoc
12:36	chouser	SirNick: yeah, you'll have to write those yourself
12:36	lpetit	chouser: sure, the code examples are a demonstration that it would not scale well "as is"
12:36	SirNick	drat
12:36	SirNick	thanks
12:36	chouser	SirNick: some day we'll have a set of such functions available as a map to be merged into your deftype via extend
12:37	chouser	but I don't know of such a thing yet
12:37	SirNick	chouser: yea that would be quite nice
12:38	s450r1	chouser: that sounds right. But the amount of code and brittleness of the code for the macro the author wrote seems painful. I'd rather have Lisp's macros ;-) Still, it's good to keep in mind.
12:39	Kruppe	chouser: is it just me or is clojure slowly getting all the tools for typical O-O
12:39	Chousuke	typical, except immutable? :P
12:40	Kruppe	Chousuke: haha true i suppose.
12:40	nathell	contrib devs: is issue #98 looked at?
12:40	Chousuke	Clojure has no "native" tools for data encapsulation as far as I know.
12:40	chouser	Kruppe: it's had most of them for quite a while
12:40	chouser	Chousuke: closures. :-P
12:40	Chousuke	chouser: well, I guess :P
12:41	Kruppe	chouser: well yeah, you could use closures to roll your own. Like people do in scheme.
12:41	chouser	closures for encapsulation, multimethods and heirarchies for inheritence and polymorphism
12:42	Kruppe	chouser: deftype and defrecord plus protocols and this potential map of functions you could add to something
12:42	chouser	maps with type metadata for "type", that is the grouping of values into objects
12:42	jonasen	dnolen: It works with a rev from 2010-10-14
12:43	chouser	namespaces for grouping methods
12:43	chouser	it's all there, just not all glommed onto the same "class" concept
12:44	chouser	and not all at best JVM speed until deftype and defprotocol
12:44	Kruppe	chouser: yeah. Almost feels like I can use CLOS in clojure now (almost).
12:44	dnolen	jonasen: makes sense, the dynamic stuff landed right after that. You'll probably have to wait a while for all that to shakeout.
12:45	jonasen	dnolen: ok, thanks!
13:02	amalloy	~source defn
13:16	qbg	Hmm... :static -> :dynamic; 1.3 is going to be a huge change from 1.2...
13:19	ohpauleez	qbg: it's going to be a big change, but for 80% of all development, nothing will change. Your code will just be magically faster
13:19	ohpauleez	I pulled that percentage out of the air, it very well could be higher, but I don't see it being much lower
13:20	qbg	Meh, using binding on a var bound to function always felt strange anyways
13:21	qbg	Still, with the semantic changes, I'd be tempted to push the version number much closer to 2.0, but then again, I'm not Rich
13:22	ohpauleez	Well it's going to be 1.3, but we're branding it as Clojure3. We have a whole marketing team on it
13:22	ohpauleez	</java joke>
13:22	qbg	pained groan
13:25	chouser	once upon a time, the major version number was going to match the age of clojure in years
13:25	cemerick	ohpauleez: man, that wasn't even funny :-P :-)
13:26	duncanm	i'm coding some stuff with incanter, and i always :require the incanter libraries
13:26	duncanm	but everytime i start up SLIME, i get these warnings: WARNING: flatten already refers to: #'clojure.core/flatten in namespace: incanter.transformations, being replaced by: #'clojure.contrib.seq-utils/flatten
13:26	duncanm	why is that happening?
13:26	ohpauleez	chouser: so the minor version isn't that far off then
13:26	ohpauleez	cemerick: haha I do what i can
13:26	chouser	ohpauleez: good point
13:27	lrenn	duncanm: you're using an old version of lein-swank.
13:27	cemerick	lrenn: I suspect not, those warnings are coming due to incanter's ns decl's
13:28	raek	duncanm: note that swank-clojure.el (the elisp package, not the clojure lib) is deprecated
13:28	duncanm	oh
13:28	lrenn	oh, missread that. I LuaJenson got the same errors yesterday due to an old swank dep.
13:28	duncanm	lrenn: lemme fix
13:29	duncanm	lrenn: where can i get the latest version?
13:29	duncanm	raek: i'm using lein
13:29	duncanm	and i have :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.2.1"]]
13:30	lrenn	duncanm: no, i was wrong. this seems to affect other libs because flatten was added to clojure.core
13:30	lrenn	duncanm: it's just that I ran into it yesterday with lein-swank i immediately thought of that.
13:30	raek	ok. great! then at least that is not the problem. (just checking)
13:31	duncanm	lrenn: but shouldn't :as be scoping the name inside a namespace?
13:31	cemerick	duncanm: you're seeing those messages because incanter is `use`ing namespaces that contain functions of the same name as functions in clojure.core.
13:32	cemerick	They'll only go away when incanter switches to use the clojure.core versions of those fns
13:32	duncanm	cemerick: instead of 'require as'... so, no harm then
13:32	lrenn	duncanm: what version of contrib are you using?
13:32	duncanm	1.2.0
13:32	cemerick	duncanm: well, the fns in question were migrated into clojure.core, so incanter doesn't actually need the references to c.c.seq-utils etc.
13:33	duncanm	right
13:34	duncanm	okay, so my dev env isn't as messed up as i thought
13:34	duncanm	onwards to more bugfixing
13:34	duncanm	thanks!
13:37	amalloy	hooray, mailed in my CA today
13:38	amalloy	soon: fix all those damn doc ambiguities that have been bugging me
13:40	cemerick	amalloy: Thank you, ahead of time :-)
13:41	ohpauleez	amalloy: You beat me, I need to get on that!
13:46	lrenn	i wonder if it makes sense for clojure-contrib to do what swank-clojure did...(when-not (ns-resolve 'clojure.core 'flatten)
13:57	amalloy	lrenn: that's an incomplete expression. what is it that swank-clojure did with flatten?
13:59	lrenn	amalloy: http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/src/swank/util.clj
13:59	lrenn	it then evals the defn.
14:14	rickmode	Ring question: I'm getting NullPointerException at flash.clj:11 when trying to use wrap-flash. Anyone familiar with Ring's wrap-flash?
14:18	lrenn	rickmode: wild guess, but are you using the wrap-session middleware? It looks like it would be required.
14:19	rickmode	lrenn: I tried that too. Something like (def app (-> #'my-routes (wrap-session) (wrap-flash) ......))
14:20	bhenry	rickmode can you gist the stacktrace?
14:21	rickmode	bhenry: ya... one sec while I figure out gist (I use github, but haven't used gist yet)
14:23	lrenn	rickmode: (def app (-> my-routes wrap-session wrap-flash))
14:23	amalloy	rickmode: if you're using emacs, there's a package to have it create gists for you
14:23	rickmode	lrenn... oh... no parens? odd
14:23	rickmode	amalloy: I'll look into that, thanks
14:24	rickmode	amalloy: I use aquamacs (I need the mac training wheels still)
14:24	Raynes	The parens are just irrelevant. They don't hurt anything.
14:24	amalloy	heh. no training wheels for windows users, so i just dove in
14:24	Raynes	$ (-> "a" (println"))
14:24	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading string
14:24	Raynes	$ (-> "a" (println))
14:24	sexpbot	⟹ a nil
14:24	Raynes	Except ones eyes, that is.
14:24	Raynes	;)
14:25	amalloy	,(macroexpand '(-> "a" println))
14:25	clojurebot	(println "a")
14:25	amalloy	,(macroexpand '(-> "a" (println)))
14:25	clojurebot	(println "a")
14:25	rickmode	lrenn: http://gist.github.com/636998
14:25	rickmode	er. bhenry: http://gist.github.com/636998
14:25	Raynes	It only puts parens around them if they aren't already there.
14:26	rickmode	my source file: http://gist.github.com/636999
14:27	amalloy	the one i've seen trip people up a few times is
14:27	amalloy	,(-> [1 2] ((fn [[a b]] [b a])))
14:27	clojurebot	[2 1]
14:29	amalloy	people seem to forget the extra layer of parens around the fn to insert [2 1] into the invocation rather than the definition
14:29	bhenry	rickmode: when does the null pointer exception happen? what are you running?
14:29	Raynes	$ ((-> [a b] (fn [b a])) 1 2)
14:29	sexpbot	⟹ [2 1]
14:29	rickmode	bhenry: hitting any page. E.g., hitting http://localhost:8080/
14:30	bhenry	okay
14:30	rickmode	bhenry: runs fine w/o wrap-flash
14:31	Raynes	rickmode: Your first mistake is hitting those pages. Don't hit them! Just tap them very gently.
14:31	amalloy	Raynes: but my way is cooler. you don't get many excuses to include [[...]] or ((...)) in a single line of clojure
14:31	rickmode	Raynes: alas the web is a blunt instrument.. lol
14:40	rickmode	amalloy lrenn: ugh... it's order dependent. I need to put wrap-session after wrap-flash. The wrapper are used bottom up with respect to the order in the the thread (->) call. So lrenn you were right. It was my guess too, but I had the order wrong.
14:41	rickmode	Thanks guys. Just talking about it got me to the solution and a deeper understanding of these wrappers.
14:47	nickik	anybody used sandbar?
14:49	rickmode	nickit: I looked at it. It seems cool and I'm learning stuff looking at it. However it embodies a certain type of web site, so it isn't a general framework. I'm sticking with compojure myself.
14:51	nickik	@rickmode i use compojure to. Sandbar just provides some stuff you can use with compojure (or a other framework)
14:51	nickik	*too
14:51	nickik	thats what brenton does in his blog too
14:52	rickmode	nickit: indeed. Looking closely at the form and validation stuff specifically, it embodies a certain style of form and validation. Specifically how it renders inputs with labels and how it renders error messages.
14:53	rickmode	nickit: can't hurt much to try it / learn it.
14:53	cemerick	the form stuff is interesting; I generally go for spring-security for auth things though
14:56	rickmode	cermerick: Does the use of Spring flow smoothly with Clojure? (I haven't considered using any Java libs / frameworks mainly because I'm not a fan of the bloat.)
14:57	cemerick	rickmode: Spring in general, no; spring-security, yes
14:58	cemerick	It's a very slim module, focused solely on auth stuff
14:58	rickmode	cemerick: is there a clojure wrapper? (perhaps that even necessary)
14:58	rickmode	er.. perhaps that's not even necessary
14:58	cemerick	it's fundamentally declarative
14:59	tonyl	hello
14:59	cemerick	You rope a servlet filter into your app via an extension to the web.xml
14:59	tonyl	does anybody know if clojure has a language specification somewhere?
15:00	cemerick	If you're not up to speed with that world, it's probably a day or two of fiddling...but then you have a highly reliable and well tested auth system with tons of plugins for e.g. oauth, openid, ldap, etc etc.
15:00	tonyl	or how does clojure-clr is following clojure in jvm?
15:03	tonyl	so no language spec? just the api documentation and what is explained in clojure.org?
15:03	rickmode	cemerick: I did java web stuff for years, so that's not a problem for me. I've used Java nearly exclusively from 2000 on, so I have a healthy appreciation of what it got right (GC, package structure, anonymous classes, inner classes) and a strong distaste for using it now.
15:03	amalloy	tonyl: language specification? i mean, the syntax is "lisp", and the standard functions are the API docs. there's nothing left to specify
15:03	cemerick	tonyl: there is no formal language spec, no
15:03	cemerick	what amalloy said :-)
15:04	tonyl	what about the interoperability with the jvm?
15:04	amalloy	just the special form . and some convenience macros
15:04	Raynes	Why would that be in a spec? You can't interop with the JVM on the CLR.
15:04	kmc	amalloy, there's more a language than syntax and standard library
15:04	amalloy	(which are all in the API docs)
15:04	kmc	there's this thing called "semantics"
15:04	rickmode	tonyl: Clojure is layered on top of those host language and runtime. It doesn't hide it.
15:04	tonyl	true
15:05	kmc	Clojure differs from Common Lisp in a number of ways, syntactic and semantic
15:05	cemerick	rickmode: In that case, I'd absolutely say use spring-security. I fundamentally wouldn't trust a reimplementation of such a thing if I could lay my hands on one that's trusted and widely vetted
15:05	cemerick	Raynes: . is the interop form on the CLR too
15:05	tonyl	thanks for clarifying it guys
15:05	kmc	don't forget that every special form constitutes new syntax
15:05	Raynes	cemerick: Good point.
15:06	kmc	it's a dumb lie that "Lisp syntax is just parentheses"
15:06	cemerick	kmc: untrue; let, do, etc are special forms, but not syntactic constructs
15:06	kmc	cemerick, how do you figure?
15:06	cemerick	Keywords, symbols, reader macro bits are.
15:06	Raynes	-> (doc let)
15:06	sexpbot	⟹ "Special Form: Please see http://clojure.org/special_forms#let"
15:06	kmc	Lisp languages have three layers of syntax; special forms are the top layer
15:06	cemerick	kmc: because they follow standard fn call semantics
15:06	kmc	no they don't
15:06	kmc	not even close
15:07	kmc	the fn call semantics are eval, then apply
15:07	kmc	that doesn't tell you how to resolve a 'let'
15:07	cemerick	ok, I retract that :-)
15:07	kmc	or a 'fn'
15:07	kmc	if i type (let (x 3 y 4) x) into DrScheme, it says "syntax error"
15:07	kmc	because in Scheme you write (let ((x 3) (y 4)) x)
15:07	cemerick	But the point being, `fn` isn't syntax.
15:07	kmc	but in Clojure you write (let [x 3 y 4] x) and not (let [(x y) (y 4)] x)
15:07	kmc	now, tell me how this is not syntax
15:07	cemerick	well, arg lists/vectors are syntax
15:08	kmc	no i mean, "let" has syntax, it expects a vector of even length
15:08	kmc	but in Scheme, it expects a list of pairs
15:08	kmc	you can map between these two trivially; it's really silly to say that this arbitrary choice is part of the semantics of "let"
15:08	cemerick	OK, defining syntax of enclosing forms is not the same as being different syntax.
15:09	kmc	cemerick, what i'm saying is that the old claim that "Lisp syntax is just s-expressions" is false and disingenuous
15:09	kmc	to write syntactically correct Lisp / Scheme / Clojure you need to know how each special form works
15:09	cemerick	well, I wouldn't argue with that
15:09	chouser	kmc: how about: Clojure's syntax is simple and regular compared to most non-Lisps
15:09	cemerick	But special forms themselves are not syntax the way, e.g. #"regex" is.
15:10	kmc	chouser, i'll agree with that
15:10	kmc	R6RS is quite explicit about the fact that Lisp-like languages have three syntactic layers, while most languages have two
15:10	chouser	kmc: cool. I've also been uncomfortable with "lisp has no syntax"
15:10	technomancy	I don't think anyone actually says "lisp has no syntax" apart from being tongue-in-cheek.
15:10	kmc	Lisp syntax is just s-expressions, if Lisp is just a language for writing nested lists
15:11	kmc	it's 'eval' that imposes that third layer
15:11	rickmode	kmc: maybe the wording should be "lisps have minimalist syntax"
15:11	kmc	well, that depends
15:11	kmc	how many special forms does CL have?
15:11	kmc	i don't know, really
15:12	turbofail	maybe the wording should be "lisps have as much syntax as you feel like adding or using"
15:12	cemerick	kmc: There's way more syntax in clojure that is unassociated with special forms. They're not the determinant of the degree of syntax that exists.
15:14	kmc	don't know what you mean
15:14	hiredman	regex literals have syntax, but are not a special form
15:14	kmc	right
15:15	kmc	there's also reader macros and other stuff i didn't talk about
15:15	kmc	which even further supports my claim that "lisp has no syntax" is a dumb lie
15:15	kmc	but is not central to that claim
15:15	hiredman	well regex's are more or less reader macros, clojure just doesn't expose an extension mechanism for reader macros
15:15	kmc	even the untyped lambda calculus has one special form :)
15:15	amalloy	heh. i made the original dumb, lying claim, and i have to say i've been convinced
15:16	cemerick	amalloy: is that what this whole thing is about? :-)
15:16	kmc	amalloy, i don't mean to call you personally dumb etc.
15:16	kmc	it's an oft-repeated claim which has been annoying me a lot
15:16	hiredman	the point of lisp is, regular syntax (first thing in a list drives how the list is evaluated) and the ability to add syntax via macros
15:17	amalloy	kmc: i know. if i'm offended i'll let you know by breaking into your house and leaving a note
15:17	kmc	haha
15:17	tonyl	what about vectors and maps? are they extended syntax just structures?
15:17	hiredman	they are literal syntax for structures
15:17	amalloy	anyone have experience with cascalog? i'm researching ways to persist hadoop's map/reduce output to mysql, and was quite pleased to see cascalog listed as the only wrapper around Cascading
15:18	hiredman	just like () is literal syntax for list structures
15:18	tonyl	but lists literals can be called as a fn
15:19	hiredman	nope
15:19	hiredman	list literals are evaluated as function application
15:19	kmc	think of your whole program as being inside an explicit (quote)
15:19	tonyl	ok, makes more sense now
15:20	hiredman	vector literals are also evaluated
15:20	kmc	then, that list literal is passed to eval
15:20	hiredman	they just are not evaluated as function application
15:20	tonyl	what are vectors evaluated into?
15:20	kmc	(eval [inc 3]) ⇒ [2 3]
15:20	kmc	(eval (inc 3)) ⇒ 4
15:20	kmc	err
15:20	kmc	(eval [inc 3]) ⇒ [inc 3]
15:20	hiredman	tonyl: into vectors that have their arguments evaluated
15:20	kmc	hmm that's not right either
15:20	hiredman	,[(inc 1)]
15:20	clojurebot	[2]
15:21	defn	,(eval [inc 3])
15:21	clojurebot	DENIED
15:21	kmc	because the symbol 'inc' will get resolved to a function value
15:21	defn	oh..right..
15:21	arkh	basic ns issue and using leiningen: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: namespace 'arkh_utils' not found after loading '/arkh_utils' (core.clj:1)
15:21	arkh	my core.clj starts like this: (ns syslog-relay.core (:use [arkh_utils]) ...)
15:22	hiredman	if vectors were not evaluated then [(inc 1)] would be the same as '[(inc 1)]
15:22	hiredman	arkh: arkh-utils
15:22	tonyl	but they are evaluated, but not into a fn
15:23	hiredman	lists are not evaluated into a fn unless they start with the special form that tells the compiler to evaluate into a fn
15:23	arkh	hiredman: I thought dashes were substituted with underlines?
15:23	hiredman	they are evaluated as a function application
15:23	hiredman	arkh: yes, in filenames
15:23	Raynes	arkh: In file names.
15:23	hiredman	arkh_utils.clj should have the namespace arkh-utils
15:23	turbofail	is there a repo for clojure-in-clojure?
15:23	arkh	oh ... (:use [arkh-utils])
15:23	hiredman	but also
15:24	hiredman	~namespaces
15:24	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
15:24	tonyl	,(werw 3 4)
15:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: werw in this context
15:24	tonyl	,'(rwer 4 5)
15:24	clojurebot	(rwer 4 5)
15:24	kmc	,(doc rwer)
15:24	clojurebot	No entiendo
15:24	kmc	hehe
15:24	tonyl	hehe
15:25	arkh	hiredman, Raynes: thanks - that was it. Silly me!
15:25	tonyl	yeah i was testing that lists are alway being evaluated as a fn call unless they are quoted
15:26	hiredman	I very much recomend writing a lisp interpreter
15:26	tonyl	yeah, that is what I am going to try to do
15:26	hiredman	in clojure?
15:26	tonyl	I am reading on compiler and interpreters and was thinking of using a subset of clojure to implement
15:27	tonyl	:P I need to do more reading apparently
15:28	tonyl	thanks for helping me understand a bit more
15:30	arkh	... hmm, and moving away from s
15:30	arkh	er, 'single segment namespaces'
15:31	hiredman	like, my guess for the bytecode that clojure emits for a vector like [(inc 1)] is, resolve the var inc, load the constant 1, call IFn.invoke(Object), create an array of size 1, load the result of the invoke into the array, call IPersistentList/create
15:31	hiredman	er
15:31	hiredman	IPersistenVector/create
15:32	hiredman	IFn.invoke being a function call (inc 1)
15:35	tonyl	,(eval [(inc ^Integer 1)])
15:35	clojurebot	Metadata can only be applied to IMetas
15:35	tonyl	interesting
15:37	hiredman	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Towards-a-Universal-VM if I recall the presentor mentions simulating runtimes on the jvm, which is restrospect was it kind of, "well of course", but when I first heard him say it it really tied together a lot of loose ends in my mind
15:37	hiredman	which in retrospect was kind of
15:38	tonyl	thanks for the link
15:38	cemerick	what's that java-in-java project? That was interesting.
15:38	hiredman	maxine
15:39	amalloy	tonyl: also, clojurebot won't do eval
15:39	amalloy	,(map class [1 (int 1)])
15:39	clojurebot	(java.lang.Integer java.lang.Integer)
15:43	hiredman	maxine has a lot of stuff stubbed out, so for example, if I try to run jetty I get a NotImplemented exception
15:43	tonyl	,(eval (inc 4))
15:43	clojurebot	DENIED
15:43	amalloy	aww. i guess that's not surprising. but at any rate, (int 1) is an int rather than an Integer
15:43	tonyl	thanks for the headsup amalloy, just starting here :P
15:43	amalloy	tonyl: he implicitly evals everything starting with a comma, but you can't call eval directly because it would stop him from imposing security restraints
15:43	tonyl	yeah, understandable
15:43	arkh	amalloy: how is it an int when (class (int 1)) returns Integer?
15:43	amalloy	arkh: (class) has to box it back into an Integer before you can call class
15:43	tonyl	,(type (int 1))
15:43	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
15:43	arkh	amalloy: oh yeah
15:43	tonyl	so clojure doesn't use primitives?
15:43	hiredman	int is a function, but not really, so it can return primitives
15:43	arkh	p.s., if there were ever a tree primitive, they should call it an 'ent'
15:43	amalloy	tonyl: only in very limited ways, though this is being expanded in 1.3 as i understand it
15:43	hiredman	tonyl: as of 1.2 clojure functions can only take Objects and return Objects
15:43	hiredman	locals inside functions can be primitive
15:44	Raynes	$ (class (Integer. 3))
15:44	sexpbot	⟹ java.lang.Integer
15:44	Raynes	~max
15:44	Raynes	hiredman: What happened to max?
15:44	amalloy	,(* 1000000 1000000)
15:44	clojurebot	1000000000000
15:44	amalloy	,(* (int 1000000) (int 1000000))
15:44	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow
15:44	tonyl	but in cases like this (def count 1) that is a primitive
15:45	tonyl	or is it boxed too
15:45	amalloy	tonyl: no, it's boxed
15:45	tonyl	dang, alright
15:46	tonyl	if they change that in 1.3 that would speed up some use cases
15:46	tonyl	but they would lose metadata functionality... mm.... interesting
15:47	hiredman	uh
15:47	hiredman	Integers can't have metadata regardless
15:48	tonyl	duh, that's true :P
15:48	tonyl	I wonder what could they loose then.
15:49	tonyl	I need to dig in more into the source code
15:49	chouser	What you lose is that primitives are not Objects. This complicates everything.
15:50	hiredman	indeed
15:50	tonyl	an example would be methods invocations?
15:51	chouser	tonyl: to the JVM there is no such thing as a funcion. Clojure functions are JVM methods that take 0 or more Object methods and return an Object
15:51	chouser	right there you lost the ability to pass in or return primitives
15:52	tonyl	wow, big hurdle.
15:54	chouser	In 'master' right now, some Clojure functions are JVM static methods that can take args of different types. They can't be closures and Clojure will look at them when compiling a call to one of these in order to generate the right method call signature.
15:54	chouser	hiredman: hey, will you be in NC?
15:54	amalloy	clojure functions are actually classes with invoke methods, right, not individual methods
15:55	hiredman	chouser: yessir
15:55	chouser	amalloy: no such thing as an individual method on the JVM, so right.
15:55	chouser	hiredman: fantastic! can't wait to meet you.
15:55	hiredman	:)
15:58	tonyl	so if the JVM supported individual functions would clojure had gone that way instead of a fn maps to a java class?
16:00	amalloy	probably not. that doesn't map well to closures
16:01	hiredman	the different between a first class function that closes over lexical scope and a an object is close to nil
16:01	hiredman	difference
16:01	amalloy	closures are implemented as a java class, with a constructor that takes N args corresponding to the lexical bindings it closes over
16:01	amalloy	i think
16:03	hiredman	infact as oo is very simulationish, using objects to simulate a language runtime makes a certain kind of sense
16:03	chouser	(let [a 1 b 2 c 3] (show (fn [x y] (+ x y a b c))))
16:03	chouser	[ 3] <init> (long,long,long)
16:04	chouser	amalloy: right
16:04	chouser	also, an optional map for metadata: [ 2] <init> (IPersistentMap,long,long,long)
16:06	tonyl	wow, that just blow my mind, to kind of know how clojure is structure from Java
16:06	tonyl	*blowed
16:06	amalloy	chouser: oh, clever. i found that out by looking at javap, but show is a teeeny bit easier
16:06	amalloy	*blew :)
16:06	chouser	amalloy: :-)
16:06	tonyl	amalloy: thanks :P
16:22	ddonnell	what's the clojure equivalent of ruby's File.expand_path(File.dirname(__FILE__))
16:24	jjido	how can I make a future that starts after the caller completes some bookkeeping only (to prevent the future operations from using stale data)?
16:25	amalloy	jjido: well, the best way would be to do the bookkeeping first :P
16:26	jkkramer	ddonnell: i don't think there's an easy __FILE__ equivalent
16:27	jkkramer	,(.getAbsolutePath (java.io.File. ""))
16:27	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission user.dir read)
16:27	amalloy	jkkramer: that's the cwd, not the script file
16:27	amalloy	,(System/getProperty "user.dir")
16:27	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission user.dir read)
16:27	jkkramer	i know, just showing what the rest of it would be
16:27	chouser	,file
16:27	clojurebot	"NO_SOURCE_PATH"
16:28	jkkramer	ah, right
16:28	amalloy	jjido: but if you needed to, you could do something like (let [args (promise) f (future (do-stuff-with @args))] (deliver args (updated-bookkeeping-data)) f)
16:29	ddonnell	thanks
16:32	jjido	amalloy: that looks like what I want to do
16:36	alexyk	ok so everybody pumped for conj? conference, not just the function?
16:38	technomancy	so pumped.
16:39	mefesto	im pumped :)
16:40	tonyl	I wish I could, maybe next year
16:40	chouser	my pumped/worried ratio is going up as my slides approach completion.
16:40	alexyk	chouser: technomancy: can't believe I'll see the men behind the nicks! this is so cool
16:41	alexyk	don't worry about the slides, you can just stand and bask :)
16:41	technomancy	I hope the badges have room for nicks on them as well as names.
16:41	alexyk	I'm having a problem of calling people by nicks
16:41	chouser	alexyk: Don't say things like that.
16:41	alexyk	ninjudd is especially hard to shake off
16:41	jweiss	oh, good call, although my nick is pretty easy to guess from my name
16:41	chouser	alexyk: like "bask" I mean. Calling me "Chouser" is fine.
16:42	alexyk	chouser: bask in the gratitude of teh IRC users I mean :)
16:42	chouser	alexyk: I understood, just not the direction my ego needs to be nudged.
16:42	alexyk	chouser: ok, then go get 'em slides! :)
16:43	jweiss	wow, 312 users in here now. the channel doesn't seem that much more active though
16:43	chouser	right-o!
16:43	alexyk	exceeded #scala a while ago
16:43	chouser	Scala seemed to have a lot of draw at Strange Loop. More than Clojure, I think.
16:44	alexyk	scala is nice, I was surprised by teh warm reception there, since my shift of focus a bit back... but they go together against pure Java I'd say
16:44	alexyk	Scala folks see Clojure in much friendlier terms than vice versa
16:45	jweiss	i really dont' know enough about scala to actually scoff. i just didn't see anything about it that made me want to learn it.
16:45	chouser	hm, as in Scala guy might think "at least Clojure is functional" and a Clojure guy might think "bah, Scala is all mutable"?
16:45	alexyk	chouser: remind the speakers to write their nicks on the badges; or, in fact, the organizers to ask folks to write them while registering
16:45	Chousuke	scala has scary syntax :P
16:45	alexyk	chouser: Scala is as mutable or immutable as you want :)
16:46	alexyk	Scala has void space instea of parens!
16:46	alexyk	teh vacuum is so empty there, cold and dangerous
16:46	alexyk	tokens can just mash together! brrrrr
16:47	chouser	I'd bet the badges are all printed by now, don't you think?
16:47	technomancy	I'll have my github shirt on that has a blank on the back for you to fill in http://github.com/________ in marker
16:47	alexyk	chouser: yeah, but people can use things called "pens" in teh 20th centiry!
16:48	alexyk	technomancy: well, at least the speakers have big pics! the rest we'll have to imagine from github ones
16:48	alexyk	e.g. lancepantz has an animal there, and ninjudd a cartoon
16:49	alexyk	defn: you here?
16:49	defn	alexyk: i am
16:49	defn	are you my roomate?
16:49	alexyk	defn: you bet! I'l arrive at 4 pm in fact
16:49	ninjudd	alexyk: that is me in contrasty mode
16:50	alexyk	ninjudd: really you? looks very abstract!
16:50	defn	alexyk: my flight leaves at 7:30am tomorrow morning -- i should be in by around 11am
16:50	alexyk	defn: and I'll have a mtg right away... if you like I can call the hotel and tell them to give you the key if you like
16:51	alexyk	btw, how about some beer tmrw evening? do folks have plans already?
16:51	defn	alexyk: that might be nice -- im going to try and take a nap, i need to take a bus at 2:30am this evening so I'm going to be a little bit out of it
16:51	defn	beer == good
16:51	alexyk	I learned there's an unnannounced dinner for sponsors
16:51	alexyk	and I wonder what we nonsponsors are gonna do
16:51	defn	let's crash it and act like we're with Akami
16:52	defn	;)
16:52	chouser	heh
16:52	alexyk	defn: that's an option, and we may end up with them anyways :)
16:52	mefesto	did someone mention beer? :)
16:53	alexyk	lots of it! if that airport dive serves any good one... NC is not known for beer is it?
16:53	alexyk	made of tobacco leaves may be
16:53	defn	i know Asheville has some coice brew
16:53	defn	choice*
16:53	defn	unfortunately that's ~7 hours away if memory serves
16:53	alexyk	but we're gonna be stuck in the airport right?
16:53	jweiss	i'm a local if you guys are looking for a place to hang
16:53	defn	ding ding ding!
16:55	alexyk	jweiss: wow cool! how about we'll get a group going and ping you
16:55	defn	,(conj ["clojure"] "love")
16:55	clojurebot	["clojure" "love"]
16:56	alexyk	ok so we'll see if we can get a group and ping the locals
16:56	alexyk	to escape into the wild
16:56	lancepantz	wow, we get in at 5:45
16:57	Raynes	lancepantz: 5:45PM Thursday?
16:57	lancepantz	yeah
16:57	Raynes	What timezone?
16:57	alexyk	lancepantz: not bad, coming from the wrong side and all :)
16:57	lancepantz	nc time
16:58	lancepantz	yeah, i think the car is picking me up at like 7am
16:58	Raynes	lancepantz: I should be there about two hours before you.
17:04	alexyk	ok I think I got a reasonable quorum for a pitcher or two!
17:05	mefesto	alexyk: add me to that list please :)
17:06	alexyk	second pitcher filled!
17:08	alexyk	how do we check when a nick was last seen here? does clojurebot do that still?
17:08	chouser	~seen stuarthalloway
17:08	clojurebot	no, I have not seen stuarthalloway
17:08	Raynes	sexpbot has a $seen command.
17:08	Raynes	$seen stuarthalloway
17:08	sexpbot	stuarthalloway was last seen quitting 721 hours and 10 minutes ago.
17:08	Raynes	Rocked his world.
17:08	chouser	wow
17:09	alexyk	~(/ 721 24)
17:09	alexyk	clojurebot: (/ 721 24)
17:09	Raynes	$ (/ 721 24)
17:09	sexpbot	⟹ 721/24
17:09	chouser	heh
17:09	Raynes	$ (/ 721 24.0)
17:09	sexpbot	⟹ 30.041666666666668
17:09	Raynes	Also, you're looking for a comma.
17:09	Raynes	,3
17:09	clojurebot	3
17:10	alexyk	wow, nice arrow there sexpbot
17:10	alexyk	thx Raynes
17:10	Raynes	I <3 my arrow.
17:10	alexyk	$seen somnium
17:10	sexpbot	somnium was last seen quitting 587 hours and 50 minutes ago.
17:10	chouser	,(print "/me is stoked")
17:10	alexyk	$seen liebke
17:10	sexpbot	liebke was last seen quitting 669 hours and 39 minutes ago.
17:10	clojurebot	/me is stoked
17:10	alexyk	these people, are they taking vacation in September or what?
17:10	Raynes	chouser: I'm stoked to see/meet you in person. :3
17:10	Raynes	And see your finger trees talk.
17:11	chouser	:-)
17:11	alexyk	the whole program is a feast
17:11	duncanm	i'm starting to use transients, and i have a line of code that used to do (apply conj a b c)
17:11	alexyk	I wish I had a paper JofC to get it signed
17:11	Raynes	Luckily, it's way before cemerick's, so I wont be asleep yet.
17:11	Raynes	;)
17:11	duncanm	now 'a' is a transient, and (apply conj! a b c) doesn't work anymore
17:11	joly	I'm hoping for leftovers. Any word on whether we'll get video after the event?
17:11	duncanm	because the signature of conj vs. conj! is slightly different
17:11	Raynes	joly: It's been confirmed that it will ve taped.
17:12	alexyk	they put liebke last and I'll have to head for the airport, what a shame
17:12	chouser	duncanm: a and b are elements, and c is a seq of elements?
17:12	joly	Raynes: sweet! I'll be looking forward to it
17:13	Raynes	alexyk: What? I thought Stuart Halloway's talk was last?
17:13	duncanm	chouser: a is the seq
17:13	Raynes	alexyk: Or are you only staying for the first day?
17:13	alexyk	Raynes: ah right
17:13	Raynes	Well, even that isn't the first.
17:13	alexyk	that's what I meant: shame, shame! :)
17:13	Raynes	s/first/last/
17:13	duncanm	chouser: i switched it to (reduce conj! ....) maybe that's working now
17:13	sexpbot	<Raynes> Well, even that isn't the last.
17:13	alexyk	sexpbot: can you pass the Turing test?
17:13	Raynes	rhickey has a loooooooo...oooong keynote as the last talk of the day on Friday.
17:13	alexyk	Raynes: that's what we're paying for!
17:14	jkkramer	duncanm: are you aware of 'into'? it uses transients under the hood
17:14	alexyk	flights out are idiotic, teh latest I could get was 5:50 pm
17:15	chouser	I'm leaving the next morning
17:15	cemerick	Raynes: You'll either be amused or irritated; hopefully not snoring :-)
17:15	alexyk	jkkramer: from where?
17:15	jkkramer	rochester, ny
17:15	alexyk	jkkramer: RPI?
17:15	cemerick	that's a brutal drive
17:15	Raynes	cemerick: It's pretty late in the day man, I can't promise anything. ;)
17:15	jkkramer	going to stockpile some books on tape
17:15	cemerick	I drove to Durham once. Not fun.
17:16	Raynes	jkkramer: That would have been my drive if cemerick hadn't raised money to buy me plane tickets. :<
17:16	alexyk	I should have stayed till Sunday too, but the flight is done
17:16	Raynes	Well, I wouldn't have been able to go in the first place...
17:16	jkkramer	alexyk: no...i went to RIT
17:16	Raynes	But still, had I been able to, that would have been my drive.
17:16	alexyk	jkkramer: right, mixing remote parts of NY here :)
17:16	defn	alexyk: sorry im at work doing 3 things
17:17	defn	alexyk: you have my cell # yes?
17:17	Raynes	defn: Did you get my PM?
17:17	alexyk	defn: yep, so I'll call on touchdown ~ 4 pm
17:18	chouser	#clojureconj tweets will likely also work well for organizing last-minute social groupings
17:18	defn	got it buddy, thanks
17:18	alexyk	chouser: yes, my iPad 3G will be catching those
17:19	defn	clojureconj.ataconapp.com is something the shop I work for built for Rails Rumble -- it's a little rough around the edges, but it's handy if you're looking for a schedule and recent #clojureconj tweets
17:19	alexyk	but good old cells are still more reliable I think; we'll see what works best
17:20	U555	is there a conference coming up?
17:20	alexyk	U555: tmrw! http://clojure-conj.org
17:20	alexyk	s
17:21	defn	(and yet he is)
17:21	amalloy	Raynes: mutter. sometime this week i'll see if i can get sexpbot to know about days, weeks, etc
17:22	Raynes	amalloy: I was about to mention that to you. ;P
17:22	amalloy	just caught up with the backlog
17:22	amalloy	(of #clojure messages)
17:22	clizzin	i don't suppose anyone here uses slime and vimpulse together?
17:23	fhd	Is there a function that returns true when the argument is a vector and otherwise false?
17:23	jkkramer	,vector?
17:23	clojurebot	#<core$vector_QMARK_ clojure.core$vector_QMARK_@18aa6a7>
17:23	chouser	(doc vector?)
17:23	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x implements IPersistentVector"
17:23	jkkramer	er, yeah
17:23	fhd	chouser: Thanks!
17:23	fhd	chouser: was looking for "isvec" and such :P
17:24	chouser	:-)
17:24	Raynes	-> (doc list?)
17:24	sexpbot	⟹ "([x]); Returns true if x implements IPersistentList"
17:24	amalloy	,(vector? (transient []))
17:24	clojurebot	false
17:24	Raynes	map? seq? etc
17:24	Raynes	The names are consistent.
17:24	amalloy	,(vector? [])
17:24	clojurebot	true
17:24	jjido	do promises get garbage collected normally if nobody holds reference, even if they are not realised?
17:24	chouser	,(ifn? {})
17:24	clojurebot	true
17:25	U555	I wasn't aware people so involved with clojure were in this channel
17:25	amalloy	jjido: i'd be surprised if the answer were no
17:25	U555	looking at the conference lineup
17:25	chouser	jjido: should be -- it's just an object
17:26	jjido	ok thanks
17:26	Raynes	U555: That's one of the things I love about Clojure. You don't have to go far to reach the 'team', if you will.
17:27	chouser	jjido: there's CountDownLatch and an atom in there, but I don't know of any reason either of those would break GC
17:27	jkkramer	it's hard to resist gushing about it to normals
17:27	Raynes	technomancy: I have to save all my pants for the plane. :(
17:28	amalloy	Raynes: good thing you're not driving, then. you'd have to spread the same supply over a longer period
17:28	Raynes	amalloy: No, I mean I expect to void myself several times on the planes.
17:28	Raynes	I've never been on a plane before.
17:28	amalloy	ah
17:28	Raynes	Not so hot on heights.
17:28	alexyk	Raynes: I hope you're older that 7! :)
17:29	errkle	nDuff: different library, same situation. came here to contemplate the matter
17:29	Raynes	alexyk: 4, actually. Mommy says I'm special.
17:29	U555	"it's hard to resist gushing about it to normals" <--- surely you mean muggles
17:30	alexyk	Raynes: tell mommy she did a good job with those Lisp preschools!
17:30	duncanm	how do i force a LazySeq (produced from filter)? isn't doall?
17:30	amalloy	Raynes: my HS physics teacher told me that, while he know how planes worked, he always worried that if he stopped believing mid-flight it would crash
17:30	amalloy	duncanm: dorun
17:30	alexyk	Bernoulli effect is all you need to repeat, as a mantra
17:31	U555	duncanm why do you want to force it?
17:32	turbofail	the bernoulli effect is not what gives an airplane most of its lift
17:32	chouser	alexyk: not sure I ever saw one
17:32	alexyk	turbofail: well it doesn't hurt :)
17:32	amalloy	turbofail: but the real explanation is too complicated. i prefer the bernoulli one
17:32	alexyk	chouser: I got one in 1993, before they renamed it zip drive
17:33	chouser	oh, I didn't know they were the same thing. I think I must have read bernoulli drive ads in Byte or something.
17:33	duncanm	is there a perf difference between sorting a Seq and a Java array?
17:33	alexyk	chouser: thet had a bigger cartridge. I still have one for Mac SE/30, it's SCSI!
17:33	technomancy	wow, zip drives... not quite old enough to be retro-cool, but getting there.
17:33	amalloy	duncanm: not much. sort is a call to Collections/sort
17:34	amalloy	or maybe i'm thinking of shuffle
17:34	duncanm	hmm
17:34	amalloy	~source sort
17:34	hiredman	I think my first linux install was on a zipdisk
17:34	alexyk	technomancy: take some Seattle air with you in a jar for nostalgic exiles
17:34	chouser	duncanm: clojure.core/sort will copy whatever you give it into a new array and call Arrays/sort on it
17:35	alexyk	technomancy: or some good coffee :)
17:36	technomancy	I haven't figured out how to make actual Good Coffee myself yet, just to recognize it when I drink it.
17:36	technomancy	tea is much easier to get right while traveling, as long as you can get water that's hot enough.
17:37	alexyk	technomancy: alas, it can't be reproduced outside ot Seattle :(
17:37	nDuff	alexyk, ...you mean "Italy", right?
17:37	chouser	I have a terrible time getting good tea while travelling
17:37	chouser	and my standards are pretty low
17:38	technomancy	chouser: well it still takes some effort, but it helps that the only external dependency is boiling clean water.
17:38	alexyk	nDuff: nope! "Italy" means, gimme 10 euros cause you look American! :)
17:38	chouser	technomancy: oh, I see -- making it yourself.
17:39	amalloy	chouser: yes, as long as the TSA hasn't started banning tea on flights that should be an easy way to make decent tea
17:49	fhd	Yeah, just released another version of Clostache :)
17:49	fhd	Anyways, gotta get some sleep too. Bye!
17:51	defn	chouser: i added you as a presenter on clojureconj.ataconapp.com for your presentation.
17:51	jjido	,(doc deliver)
17:51	clojurebot	"([promise val]); Alpha - subject to change. Delivers the supplied value to the promise, releasing any pending derefs. A subsequent call to deliver on a promise will throw an exception."
17:51	chouser	defn: thanks
17:55	jjido	why does promise come before val? is that more English: (deliver someone val)... Then in Java notation, which would be better? deliver(someone, val) or deliver(val, someone)?
17:56	chouser	someone.deliver(val) ?
17:56	jjido	chouser: no choice here heh
17:56	jjido	thanks
18:00	alexyk	defn: Atacon sounds "attaboy"! :) atatcon! good conference! here's a rawhide
18:01	alexyk	defn: what, reload to get tweets?!
18:04	alexyk	defn: after signing in with Twitter, tweets update
18:10	alexyk	ninjudd: tried to do cake install in github checkout, am getting: /opt/portage/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/fileutils.rb:243:in `mkdir': File exists - /home/alexyk/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0 (Errno::EEXIST) -- ?
18:11	alexyk	why would it want to mkdir for clojure??
18:12	ninjudd	that was a bug that has been fixed
18:12	alexyk	ninjudd: I just did a pull right now
18:12	alexyk	shoul I repull
18:12	alexyk	?
18:12	ninjudd	just remove /home/alexyk/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0
18:13	ninjudd	i may need to do that automatically in that error case
18:13	alexyk	ninjudd: my valuable clojure is there! promise you'll put it back?
18:13	ninjudd	yes
18:13	alexyk	ok
18:14	alexyk	hmm it's not even a directory :( rm it
18:16	alexyk	ninjudd: after rm, cake install finishes fine
18:22	duncanm	hmm, how do i use lein repl?
18:22	duncanm	i can't figure out how to load my source files
18:23	amalloy	,(doc load)
18:23	clojurebot	"([& paths]); Loads Clojure code from resources in classpath. A path is interpreted as classpath-relative if it begins with a slash or relative to the root directory for the current namespace otherwise."
18:23	ninjudd	alexyk: thanks. i checked in a change to fix it automatically in the future
18:23	hiredman	uh
18:24	hiredman	if you have everthing laid out in the proscribed manner in ./src then you can just use require to require your namespaces
18:24	alexyk	ninjudd: cool! I voted for cake in #clojureconj tweet. :)
18:24	amalloy	ninjudd: any plans for a lein-like javac task? i just discovered i can't build cascalog with cake because it uses the lein javac hook
18:25	ninjudd	amalloy: cake supports java compilation out of the box
18:26	amalloy	i tried cake compile and got 40 errors
18:26	ninjudd	alexyk: thanks!
18:27	amalloy	(this after cake deps)
18:27	ninjudd	amalloy: is it because it is trying to hook a non-existent function?
18:27	amalloy	no, they were javac errors
18:28	ninjudd	amalloy: this is building cascalog from the source?
18:28	amalloy	yeah
18:28	amalloy	fresh github
18:29	lancepantz	amalloy: i'll take a look at it, just a second
18:29	lancepantz	i've been meaning to check out cascalog anyways
18:30	amalloy	it looks like the issue is build path somehow. cake isn't seeing the hadoop jars
18:31	amalloy	(ie it's invoking javac fine, but seeing the wrong build path)
18:32	lancepantz	amalloy: so you get the exception when you run 'cake compile'?
18:32	amalloy	yeah
18:33	lancepantz	no problems on my box
18:33	amalloy	huh
18:33	duncanm	does a list-comprehension run anything in parallel?
18:34	amalloy	[compile] /home/akm/src/clojure/cascalog/src/jvm/cascalog/MemorySourceTap.java:29: package org.apache.hadoop.fs does not exist
18:34	amalloy	[compile] import org.apache.hadoop.fs.Path;
18:34	amalloy	and then a few dozen more just like it
18:35	lancepantz	amalloy: what os?
18:36	amalloy	ubuntu 10.04
18:36	duncanm	i have a bit of code right now that's running slow
18:36	amalloy	duncanm: no, it doesn't
18:36	lancepantz	k, let met try on an ubuntu box
18:36	duncanm	i'm looping thru a list, and basically keeping a gap buffer during the iteration
18:37	duncanm	i have an entry and some bins and i'm trying to put the entry into one of the bins based on some criteria
18:38	duncanm	if the entry fits into an existing bin, then i put it in and return a new seq of bins, if it doesn't fit, i add a new bin to the end with the entry
18:38	duncanm	http://gist.github.com/637492
18:38	amalloy	duncanm: you sound like you're reinventing a medium-size wheel here. is there some reason you need to do the loop by hand?
18:39	duncanm	amalloy: i'm trying not to
18:39	duncanm	amalloy: i'd just use map if i know that an entry always fit into something
18:40	duncanm	(map f coll) only returns an answer as long as coll, but in this case, there are times when i need it to be coll+1
18:40	amalloy	so you have...a set of predicates you're testing or something?
18:40	duncanm	amalloy: the link above has a snippet of the code
18:41	amalloy	yeah, i just want to be sure i'm reading it right since i don't know what your "trails" are
18:42	duncanm	amalloy: a trail is a seq of entries
18:42	duncanm	an entry is a PersistentHashMap
18:43	amalloy	lancepantz, ninjudd: could it be i'm using an old version of cake?
18:43	lancepantz	possibly, try doing a cake upgrade
18:45	amalloy	duncanm: perhaps you want update-in
18:45	duncanm	hmmm
18:45	duncanm	amalloy: maybe...
18:45	lancepantz	amalloy: it just compiled one of our redhat boxes too
18:46	lancepantz	i think we have an ubuntu one too, i'll double check that one
18:46	amalloy	(update-in all-buckets [(get-bucket-for item)] (fnil conj []) item)
18:46	duncanm	fnil?
18:47	amalloy	,(doc fnil)
18:47	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
18:47	amalloy	,(update-in {} [:test] (fnil conj []) :val)
18:47	clojurebot	{:test [:val]}
18:49	amalloy	,(update-in {:test [10]} [:test] (fnil conj []) :val)
18:49	clojurebot	{:test [10 :val]}
18:49	amalloy	duncanm: that way you can be agnostic about whether a bucket already exists
18:52	amalloy	lancepantz: i no longer get compiler errors with 0.5.3 but it hangs forever at what looks like some kind of debug output
18:52	lancepantz	that happened to me once
18:52	lancepantz	we've been trying to figure out how that happens, but its very inconsistent
18:52	lancepantz	ctrl-d out then run it again
18:53	amalloy	i get it consistently
18:53	amalloy	well. apparently not consistently. 3 times in a row, then the fourth worked
18:53	lancepantz	after a cake kill all?
18:54	amalloy	no, just a ctl-c. lemme try that
18:54	amalloy	yes, still getting it
18:54	lancepantz	built fine on this ubuntu box
18:55	lancepantz	has this happened to you before on other projects?
18:55	amalloy	the debug output has happened before, though i can't remember when. the problem i had with compiling before, no
18:55	lancepantz	yeah, the debug, i think its unrelated to compiling
18:56	amalloy	http://gist.github.com/637522 if you're interested in debug output
18:56	lancepantz	ty
18:57	amalloy	huh. and again, worked on exactly the fourth try. this is interesting
18:57	lancepantz	yeah, i got the same thing that one time
18:57	lancepantz	really
18:57	amalloy	believe it or not
18:57	amalloy	gonna try from scratch one more time
18:57	amalloy	damn. first try this time. must have been a coincidence
18:59	lancepantz	it's happening pretty consistently on this redhat box
18:59	duncanm	amalloy: but then i'll need to come up with some form of key
19:02	amalloy	duncanm: uhhhhh...it's pretty easy to use the integers from 0 to infinity as a key if you don't have any meaningful primary identifying feature
19:03	lancepantz	amalloy: let me know if you find any correlations with that debug output
19:04	lancepantz	i've got to get some stuff done before going to nc
19:04	hiredman	technomancy recomends http://github.com/toolmantim/bananajour for conj goers
19:04	duncanm	amalloy: but i need entries that go into the same bin to 'hash' to the same key
19:04	technomancy	yes, it's great for any conf where the wifi may be shaky
19:04	duncanm	the same 'trail'
19:04	technomancy	gotta let the codes flow
19:13	amalloy	duncanm: just make (get-bucket-for-object) take an object and the current map then, if you must
19:26	sdeobald	Out of curiosity, is there a convenience function that anyone's aware of which basically does the opposite of 'bean'? -- construct a zero-arg bean, set a bunch of properties, return that obj.
19:28	amalloy	sdeobald: i'm not sure that would be possible. the class has to be known at compile time, and at compile time it can't know what properties you'll be setting, right?
19:29	sdeobald	Hmm.
19:29	sdeobald	The class needs to be known. It doesn't need to know what setters it's planning on calling, though, does it?
19:30	hiredman	you can use reflection
19:30	amalloy	no. but those setters have to exist
19:30	sdeobald	True.
19:30	sdeobald	hiredman: right
19:31	sdeobald	I'm going to assume that's a no, then. ;)
19:33	alexyk	ninjudd: say I use cake install to create a jar our of a project A, A.jar. I then make it a dependency of a project B. A has src/a.clj. I used to (require 'a) when in A. How do I achieve the same effect in B now?
19:34	hiredman	~namespaces
19:34	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
19:35	ninjudd	alexyk: just require it the same way
19:36	alexyk	hiredman: right; my A files are all declared in namespace A. I'm a bit confised on teh interplkay of A.jar on the class path with src/a.clj and that declaring (ns 'a)
19:39	raek	jar files work somewhat like additional src/ directories, if that makes any sense
19:41	raek	if foo/bar/baz.clj exists in some jar file (which is, basically, just a zipped directory) or in the src/ directory (or in any other directory/jarfile on the classpath), then you can (require 'foo.bar.baz)
19:44	_rata_	hi clojurians
19:50	alexyk	the problem was naming files with dashes in them
19:52	_rata_	I'm having a difficult time designing a clojure program... I'm trying to implement a CTCM (continuous-time Markov chain) simulator and would like to make it entirely based on immutable data, so each time I call gen-event it returns a copy of the state passed to it with the corresponding changes
19:54	_rata_	the problem is that the state contains mutually-referencing objects... or at least that's the way I think will make the program run faster
19:57	_rata_	I can't figure out a way to make the state immutable
19:58	_rata_	and efficient
19:58	amalloy	_rata_: a recurring subject in #clojure
19:59	amalloy	you can't get mutally-referring immutable objects (maybe changing with pods?), but you have a couple options
20:00	hiredman	you can via indirect references
20:00	amalloy	you can have a top-level hashmap, which maps type1 objects to type2 objects, and vice versa
20:01	amalloy	which i think is the same as what hiredman just said, but i'm not sure. care to expand, hiredman?
20:01	_rata_	what's pods?
20:01	_rata_	*what are
20:02	hiredman	you can keep a ref of objects globaly, and generate your immutable data structure with references into the "global"
20:03	amalloy	RH is working on pods for 1.3 or some future version. i don't really understand them, but they're supposed to magically fix every problem we have
20:03	hiredman	meh
20:03	_rata_	hahahahaha
20:04	amalloy	seriously though, i think the idea is to have well-defined boundaries for mutation of objects, which would probably allow this sort of thing
20:04	cpfr	hey is there an elegant way to pass a list of arguments to a function as a lis
20:05	amalloy	um. pass a list as a list? you just pass it. do you mean, you have N separate items but your function wants a seq, or the reverse of that?
20:05	jjido	How do you wait for two promises in parallel? put one of the waiters in a future?
20:06	jjido	,(doc &)
20:06	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
20:06	amalloy	jjido: wait for both, or for the first one?
20:06	hiredman	what is the diference between waiting serially and waiting in parallel?
20:07	jjido	cpfr: use (defn myfunc [& args] ....args is now a list...) (myfunc arg1 arg2 arg3)
20:07	hiredman	(answer: none; if you feel there is one feel free to present proof)
20:07	danlarkin	hiredman: parallel is faster, of course
20:07	jjido	amalloy: wait for EITHER
20:07	hiredman	PARALLEL AND MUNCTIONAL
20:07	hiredman	FOR MEN
20:07	jjido	hiredman: not in CPS
20:08	jjido	hiredman: there will only be one promise delivered
20:08	cpfr	jjido, is there any simpler way
20:08	hiredman	there is no way to do that without polling in a loop
20:08	cpfr	I didn't define this function
20:09	hiredman	e.g. wait in one promise till a timeout then wait on the other
20:09	jjido	cpfr: your question is not clear
20:09	amalloy	hiredman: can you do it even with a loop? there's no non-blocking deref for promises as far as i know
20:09	hiredman	amalloy: you can simulate one
20:10	pmbauer	,(doc apply)
20:10	clojurebot	"([f args* argseq]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending args to argseq."
20:10	pmbauer	@cpfr ?
20:10	jjido	hiredman: I don't see why I need that, my solution looks like it would work: (future (workwithp1 @p1)) (workwithp2 @p2)
20:11	cpfr	pmbauer, jjido allow me to make it more clear
20:11	amalloy	then you leave deadlocked threads scattered all over the jvm, jjido
20:11	cpfr	assume (defn add [x y] (+ x y))
20:11	hiredman	what amalloy said
20:11	jjido	amalloy: should I care?
20:11	hiredman	yes
20:11	cpfr	and assume add is some function i didnt write
20:11	amalloy	jjido: um, yes? they won't get GCed
20:11	hiredman	that is a horrible thing to do
20:11	cpfr	i wish to be able to do (add '(2 3))
20:11	amalloy	,(apply add [1 2 3 4])
20:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: add in this context
20:12	amalloy	,(apply + [1 2 3 4])
20:12	clojurebot	10
20:12	cpfr	,(apply / [10 2])
20:12	pmbauer	yep
20:12	clojurebot	5
20:12	cpfr	amalloy, well I feel stupid now
20:12	cpfr	thanks :)
20:12	amalloy	jjido: you could do it your way, if you provided some "special" value that your promises should never return
20:13	jjido	amalloy: hiredman: ok, I see what I need. I will use only one promise and make it a pair (x, y)
20:13	amalloy	yes, i agree that's better
20:14	jjido	or a map {:x p1result, :y p2result}
20:14	amalloy	jjido: your architecture may make this hard, but i like [result, where-it's-from]
20:15	hiredman	a pair is very respectable
20:15	_rata_	amalloy, how are "well-defined boundaries" for mutation of objects?
20:16	amalloy	like i said, i don't know much about pods. he's supposed to be talking about them at the conj this weekend
20:16	hiredman	well one set of boundaries would be a thread
20:20	ivey	Is Colin Jones in here?
20:22	_rata_	mmmm... I don't understand pods yet, but will read about it
20:23	_rata_	where's going to be the Conj?
20:24	TeXnomancy	ivey: how's the beach? =)
20:25	ivey	TeXnomancy: Nice. Cool breeze, waves lapping on the shore. Barge just went by.
20:25	defn	intense jealousy starting to crop up... must suppress anger...
20:25	ivey	heh, I earned it. Also, sharing a 1.5 bath really old house with inlaws
20:26	ivey	so it's a little nuts. I went to pick up takeout and had to go early to wait at the bar.
20:26	moogatronic	had to cause a beer sounded delightful?
20:27	amalloy	_rata_: north carolina
20:27	ivey	had to, because a bourbon sounded damn near essential
20:27	moogatronic	lol. yeah, i try to avoid stays with inlaws when possible, unless there is a damn-nice unrelated outcome potential.
20:28	ivey	It's a free beach house on the water. It's an OK trade-off.
20:31	_rata_	amalloy, do you know if they are making videos of the presentations?
20:36	amalloy	they want to, but last i heard it was up in the air
20:36	Raynes	No, they are.
20:36	amalloy	nice
20:36	Raynes	@clojure_conj confirmed it to me in a tweet a few days ago.
20:36	Raynes	I assume whoever is behind @clojure_conj would know.
20:36	_rata_	ok, nice
20:37	amalloy	hm. too bad i'm already busy next weekend or i could have my own one-man mini-conj watching them all
20:37	defn	the fact that there arent 3 simultaneous presentations going on at any given time slot makes the video thing a lot easier
20:37	defn	no need for 3 nice video cameras, people to handle A/V stuff, etc.
20:40	_rata_	oh, this problem is very difficult to solve... I want an immutable data structure that you say change x to y and it changes it recursively on every place where there's an x
20:40	amalloy	_rata_: see clojure.walk
20:40	amalloy	it looks like you might want that
20:40	_rata_	it could be the key or the value of a map or anything into a collection
20:41	amalloy	~source macroexpand-all
20:41	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
20:41	_rata_	amalloy, ok, I'll check it
20:41	amalloy	clojurebot: contrib?
20:41	clojurebot	contrib is http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/tree/master
20:41	qbg	_rata_: What big O do you want?
20:41	hiredman	,(doc mexpand-all)
20:41	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.macro-utils/mexpand-all;[[form]]; Perform a full recursive macro expansion of a form."
20:42	ivey	chouser: finally got my CA done, and posted to the list with that xml code from weeks back. any updated thoughts on where it might belong?
20:43	amalloy	_rata_: http://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/walk.clj
20:43	_rata_	amalloy, but I think clojure.walk will go over the entire collection... not just the places where there could possibly be an x... I need a way to specify where an x could appear
20:43	amalloy	,(doc tree-seq)
20:43	clojurebot	"([branch? children root]); Returns a lazy sequence of the nodes in a tree, via a depth-first walk. branch? must be a fn of one arg that returns true if passed a node that can have children (but may not). children must be a fn of one arg that returns a sequence of the children. Will only be called on nodes for which branch? returns true. Root is the root node of the tree."
20:43	_rata_	qbg, lineal in the size of the places where x could appear ^
20:44	chouser	ivey: I saw your email, but haven't had the time yet to look at the code or anything
20:44	chouser	it may be fine in lazy-xml
20:44	ivey	kk no hurry. just trying to maximize my free hack time this week
20:44	amalloy	_rata_: you can use clojure.walk with a specialized inner function
20:45	technomancy	ssshhhh... the longer the CA takes to process the more time he has to work on leiningen. =)
20:45	_rata_	amalloy, ok, maybe that's what I'm looking for :)
20:46	ivey	heh
20:49	ivey	technomancy: how do you decide whether you're in TeX mode or not?
20:50	technomancy	ivey: TeXnomancy is my alt. nick for when I reconnect and my old connection hasn't dropped yet. better than just adding a dash on the end or some such =)
20:50	alexyk	latex nomancy; bibtex nomancy; ...
20:51	ivey	latexnomancy is for after-hours
20:51	alexyk	indeed
20:57	defn	alexyk: get to bed!
20:58	alexyk	defn: call the hotel or you'll have to walk around it!
20:59	defn	haha
20:59	defn	speaking of which, did you call them?
20:59	alexyk	trying to get warm, eyeing pretty ladies inside drinking martinis
20:59	defn	is that proust?
20:59	alexyk	defn: I delegated it to you! :)
21:00	alexyk	I'll follow up on your findings
21:00	defn	haha, i dont think they'll take someone's request: "hey uh, i want a key to Alexy's room."
21:00	alexyk	not proust, just me :)
21:00	alexyk	defn: OK, I'll call them then
21:01	defn	i could try to social engineer it for kicks
21:01	alexyk	defn: you can get into rhickey's room that way too!
21:01	defn	bahaha, im imagining myself with a giant toothy grin, arms spread as if waiting for a hug: HI!!!
21:02	defn	as he walks into his room
21:02	alexyk	as he slowly turns a corner with a Tazer!
21:03	defn	little does he know I packed a /Samurai sword!/
21:03	alexyk	defn: rhickey is the ultimate ninja of this realm, so you'd have no chance
21:03	defn	Conj /this!/
21:03	defn	that's what I'd say...
21:04	alexyk	into /that!/ will be the last thing you'll hear...
21:04	defn	ah, clojure humor...
21:04	defn	the pinnacle of comedy
21:05	defn	the zenith, the apex
21:05	alexyk	the summit of subtlety!
21:05	alexyk	the culmination of the apogee
21:06	defn	land-line Cisco phone, you say?
21:06	defn	Is that a land line nowadays?
21:06	alexyk	it has an old voip wire coming out of it
21:06	alexyk	bulging with packets
21:07	alexyk	bb
21:07	defn	kk
21:09	alexyk	ok "David," you're all set
21:09	alexyk	or we hoep so!
21:10	alexyk	(why is it when people hear Devin, they repeat David?)
21:10	defn	good question
21:11	defn	I get called all sorts of names, usually by older folks
21:11	alexyk	well they don't say Devil at least
21:11	defn	Davin, Dovin, Daven, Dev-on
21:11	alexyk	DEVONThink!
21:11	defn	do you use it?
21:12	alexyk	I have it, but not use it... :(
21:12	defn	it's a neat idea but sort of hard to use
21:12	defn	i used it a long time ago though, it mighe be better on my shiny new MBP
21:12	alexyk	I hoard all kinds of tools for teh Mac... ok back to thesis :)
21:12	defn	alexyk: as long as we're getting to know eachother I think I'll share last night's dream with you:
21:12	defn	I had a dream about minnows -> frogs -> toilet -> scientists + evolutionary biology.
21:13	alexyk	hmm
21:14	alexyk	as long as the scientists are unharmed
21:14	defn	there were minnows living in toilets that were morphing into new species, i had scientists studying my toilet, so whether they were harmed or not is i suppose debatable
21:15	defn	okay get back to your thesis, i think ive sufficiently embaressed myself for the evening
21:15	defn	thanks for calling the hotel, seeya in ~18 hours
21:15	alexyk	defn: dreams with toilets are quite typical of adolescents fumbling for identity, nothing to be embarrased about! see ya!
21:16	defn	hahaha -- well played
21:23	alexyk	ok #clojure! get ready for teh FIRST EVAR Conj 2010! Go Clojure! over and out
21:26	tomoj	aww shucks
21:26	tomoj	I didn't know it was so soon
21:27	maravillas	not coming tomoj?
21:30	maravillas	gary_poster: seems we're on opposing schedules. i just saw your question about groups in the triangle area a couple days ago...wanted to mention that i don't know of a clj user group in the area, but there is http://trifunc.org that meets sporadically
21:30	tomoj	didn't get funded in time
21:30	tomoj	oh well
21:31	gary_poster	maravillas: still here for a few more seconds :-) thanks, cool!
21:32	maravillas	ah, great :)
22:04	jjido	My future does not get fired http://gist.github.com/637783
22:05	jjido	I see the printlns though
22:09	jjido	ok must be something in coroutine
22:11	_rata_	amalloy, the problem with clojure.walk is that it calls the inner for every element in the collection, not just where I know they could be inside the hierarchy of objects... hierarchy in the sense of nested data structures
22:12	hiredman	you may want to look at clojure.zip
22:12	amalloy	_rata_: no, it calls inner for every element at the top level. prewalk and postwalk only delve deeper because they include another walk call
22:12	_rata_	ah ok
22:13	amalloy	if your inner function sometimes calls walk again, you can control the recursion. though maybe clojure.zip is a better solution; i've never used it and hiredman is a smart guy
22:16	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b (c d) e) f) zip/seq-zip zip/next zip/next zip/next (zip/replace 5))
22:16	clojurebot	[5 {:changed? true, :l [], :pnodes [(a (b (c d) e) f) (b (c d) e)], :ppath {:l [a], :pnodes [(a (b (c d) e) f)], :ppath nil, :r (f)}, :r ((c d) e)}]
22:16	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b (c d) e) f) zip/seq-zip zip/next zip/next zip/next (zip/replace 5) zip/root)
22:16	clojurebot	(a (5 (c d) e) f)
22:18	amalloy	three nexts? if it's starting from the root and traversing depth-first, i don't understand why it takes three nexts to get to b
22:19	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b (c d) e) f) zip/seq-zip zip/next zip/node)
22:19	clojurebot	a
22:19	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b (c d) e) f) zip/seq-zip zip/next zip/next zip/node)
22:19	clojurebot	(b (c d) e)
22:19	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b (c d) e) f) zip/seq-zip zip/next zip/next zip/next zip/node)
22:19	clojurebot	b
22:19	amalloy	ah
22:19	amalloy	thanks
22:36	amalloy	,(map (comp vector zip/node) (take-while (complement zip/end?) (iterate zip/next (zip/seq-zip '(a (b (c d)) e)))))
22:36	clojurebot	([(a (b (c d)) e)] [a] [(b (c d))] [b] [(c d)] [c] [d] [e])
22:38	hiredman	,(pl (↕map (replicate 3 (↕apply vector $ (↕map range $ 10 inc · inc · inc) call · ⌽* $ 10 · call · (⌽+ -2) map)) shuffle)))))
22:38	clojurebot	([10 70 30 60 40 80 50 100 20 90] [90 30 100 70 10 50 80 40 20 60] [70 100 50 10 60 80 40 90 30 20])
22:39	amalloy	hiredman: wow, some kind of character-encoding issue there. half of your message looks like gibberish to me
22:40	hiredman	I recommend you remedy the character encoding issue immediately. you're not ircing if you're not in unicode
22:42	danlarkin	hiredman: the RFC might have something to say about that!
22:42	Derander	hiredman: what does ⌽ and ↕ mean in that code?
22:42	Derander	what do*
22:43	hiredman	clojurebot: transformr?
22:43	hiredman	clojurebot: transforml?
22:43	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
22:43	clojurebot	PONG!
22:44	hiredman	clojurebot: transform
22:44	clojurebot	transform is http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/8a84e6ddbad9d71f714ba16c3e1239633228a7eb/functional.clj
22:44	hiredman	pl is a code rewriting macro
22:45	Derander	oh interesting
22:47	hiredman	,(pl (λ.x (in x) 1))
22:47	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: in in this context
22:47	hiredman	,(pl (λ.x (inc x) 1))
22:47	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassFormatError: Illegal field name "." in class sandbox$eval4689$fn__4690
22:47	hiredman	,(pl (λx (inc x) 1))
22:47	clojurebot	2
22:48	dnolen	fun
22:48	amalloy	oh. so those silly symbols are all supposed to be there? not an encoding issue after all, then :P
22:49	dnolen	amalloy: λ <- silly symbol?! blasphemer
22:49	amalloy	the first one didn't have any lambdas :P
22:49	dnolen	;)
22:50	amalloy	if i'd seen a lambda i would have immediately assumed hiredman was up to some kind of tricks
22:52	hiredman	danlarkin: all rfcs that mention other encodings shall be embraced and extended
22:53	danlarkin	:'(
23:26	_rata_	buuu http://confreaks.net/videos/127-elcamp2010-clojure
23:28	arrummzen	Is "Macro Expansion Time" during compile time or during runtime?
23:28	arrummzen	(Is it more like macro expansion in C or lazy evaluation in Haskell?) =)
23:29	hiredman	right before compile time (the expansion actually happens as the first step in the compiler)
23:29	arrummzen	Thanks =)