#clojure – 2010-10-09

2010-10-09

00:02	TeXnomancy	scottj: nice work with clojars
00:03	TeXnomancy	I kinda thought alex wasn't accepting patches, being MIA or something
00:03	TeXnomancy	kotarak submitted some fixes that didn't seem to go anywhere
00:08	scottj	TeXnomancy: he said he's been really busy
00:09	scottj	I made sure he was willing and able to merge the changes before I started working on them
00:11	scottj	he's also just provided better docs and a dump of the db for running and testing locally
00:13	scottj	TeXnomancy: actually you were the reason I made those changes :) with multiple ppl committing to swank-clojure I was getting upset not knowing if you'd pushed them to clojars
00:19	TeXnomancy	cools
00:20	TeXnomancy	making it easier to run/test clojars locally is really important for getting contributors, I'm glad it works better now
00:20	TeXnomancy	just added you to the swank clojars group
00:21	TeXnomancy	oh... I can run a local clojars for my conj talk and demo scp uploads without needing a network connection... slick.
00:25	TeXnomancy	we really need to get clojars on a server where others can help admin it though
00:28	scottj	there's a mailing list (1 member) and a maintainers list mentioned on the clojars-web repo readme so he's probably moving that way just waiting for someone to volunteer
00:28	TeXnomancy	actually four people have volunteered
00:29	TeXnomancy	he just hasn't given anyone access yet because it's still on a shared server that he's not the owner of
00:29	TeXnomancy	gotta get things moved over to the VPS at new.clojars.org
00:31	scottj	ahh
00:56	TeXnomancy	the similarities between John Rose's "larval" ideas and Rich's pods are pretty striking: http://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/larval_objects_in_the_vm
00:56	TeXnomancy	VM-level support for podlike behaviour would be great
02:08	slyrus_	TeXnomancy: what do you mean by VM-level support for podlike behavior?
02:29	amalloy	slyrus_: did you read the article? i don't know a lot about pods, but larva seem like useful thing for clojure to have
03:00	amalloy	morning ohpauleez
03:01	ohpauleez	evening for me
03:01	ohpauleez	Just wrapped up a small host party
03:01	ohpauleez	house*
03:01	amalloy	fwiw i decided not to use clojure-hadoop, at least not yet. it looked a lot harder to modify it to read input from cassandra than it would be to adjust cassandra/contrib/wordcount to do the processing i need to do
03:01	ohpauleez	nonetheless, morning amalloy
03:02	amalloy	heh, well, evening for me too. but you just signed on, it's morning!
03:02	ohpauleez	I've had pretty good experiences with cassandra
03:02	ohpauleez	I have a high performance wrapper on my github
03:03	tomoj	ooohh
03:03	ohpauleez	But I think I need to push the final working project
03:03	tomoj	what's your github account name?
03:03	ohpauleez	I'll check in about 8-10 hours
03:03	tomoj	I have been greedily eyeing cassandra
03:03	ohpauleez	I believe ohPauleez, full name will be Paul deGrandis
03:03	ohpauleez	it has some weird long term running behaviors
03:04	ohpauleez	but for a simple key value store that scales with writes
03:04	ohpauleez	it's an awesome choice
03:04	ohpauleez	Mongo is real nice too, the company I work with is pushing forward with mongo. And the old company I built uses it for things
03:05	amalloy	i looked at cassandra-wrapper on github, but it didn't look very good. that one's not yours, is it?
03:06	ohpauleez	nope
03:06	ohpauleez	cassaforte is mine
03:07	ohpauleez	I just checked, I need to push the final code, it's currently just a bunch of random hacks
03:07	ohpauleez	but I've had issues with clj and cassandra, and ended up using the Thrift java wrapped
03:08	ohpauleez	which is what led me to generalize and make cassaforte
03:09	amalloy	hmm. well, when i get finished with the "what the hell is hadoop" experimentation phase, i'll give cassandraforte a closer look
03:10	ohpauleez	if you have a map reduce problem, hadoop is a bunch of fun
03:11	amalloy	yeah, we're just chewing through a large set of logs to generate aggregate data for the existing SQL code
03:11	amalloy	poster child for hadoop and cassandra both
03:12	carkh	so you managed to reach the "scaling limit" of sql ?
03:12	carkh	or is it just for learning ?
03:13	amalloy	carkh: well, i joined the company a few months ago, and while we could scale sql for another year or two if we had to and could spare the money...
03:13	carkh	what database engine were you using ?
03:13	carkh	(if i may ask)
03:14	amalloy	ummmm, myisam in production, i think, and maybe transitioning to innodb
03:14	amalloy	(on mysql)
03:14	carkh	right
03:14	carkh	damn you must be processing an awefull lot of transactions
03:15	ohpauleez	carkh: I have scaled out MySQL and Postgres in HUGE deployments. The truth is, if you're facing a system that has a scaling problem and doesn't require certain needs, mongo or something similar is nice
03:15	ohpauleez	if you have to number crunch or build a search index on something huge
03:16	ohpauleez	hadoop is a gem
03:16	amalloy	carkh: ~100k per hour, i think? 400k at super-peak times
03:17	ohpauleez	really just tools in a tool box
03:17	ohpauleez	just like RBDMSs
03:17	carkh	i'm not doubting your needs ... I just personally never needed anything more than sharding, but that's only me
03:18	ohpauleez	whatever fits the problem space
03:18	amalloy	carkh: oh, i'm sure we could shard too, but since we're keeping a bunch of unrelational data, cassandra is better-suited
03:18	ohpauleez	carkh: Depending how those transactions happen, and how you grow, "just sharding" can be hard, even with mysql
03:19	ohpauleez	I'm not a nosql fanboy, very much the opposite
03:19	ohpauleez	but I have ran into scenarios where it fit nicely into the solution space
03:20	carkh	so, cassandra or haddoop ?
03:20	amalloy	both
03:20	amalloy	cassandra for storage, hadoop for processing
03:20	carkh	and how many computers are participating in your "cluster" ?
03:20	ohpauleez	amalloy: if you're not extremely write heavy, I would caution with cassandra. But do some tests and look at the numbers
03:21	amalloy	carkh: not sure yet - it's still in the development phase, and i imagine we'll do performance testing to see how many nodes we need
03:22	ohpauleez	for sure
03:22	ohpauleez	amalloy: ping me if you need any help or insight. More than happy to pass along tips
03:22	amalloy	thanks ohpauleez
03:22	carkh	well, good luck on your projects, seems interesting
03:23	amalloy	i know you have experience with hadoop and cassandra; have you used them together? that's what i'm currently stumbling on
03:25	ohpauleez	I haven't used them both directly together
03:25	ohpauleez	I used one for a stats reporting, and I fed that to another data store that later fed into hadoop for BI and number crunching
03:45	notsonerdysunny	I keep getting ... "/home/sunil/bin/cake:307: warning: Insecure world writable dir /media/disk/user in PATH, mode 040777" is there a way to disable this?
03:47	amalloy	notsonerdysunny: take that directory off your PATH...? it's a warning because anyone could put a malicious program named, for example, ls into that directory, and when you typed ls it would run that program with all your permissions
03:48	notsonerdysunny	hmm.. I realize that .. but is there a way to suppress it...
03:49	notsonerdysunny	I am the only user of this computer...
03:49	amalloy	what's in that directory that you want to be able to execute?
03:49	notsonerdysunny	k .. I guess I will remove it from path
03:50	amalloy	or chmod o-w /media/disk/user
03:52	amalloy	er, a-w? something like that
03:52	fhd	Hi. Is there a pair datatype in Clojure? In Emacs Lisp I could use (1 . 2) or (cons 1 2), doesn't work in Clojure.
03:53	amalloy	,(vector 1 2)
03:53	clojurebot	[1 2]
03:53	amalloy	,[1 2]
03:53	clojurebot	[1 2]
03:53	fhd	clojurebot: That's not exactly a pair, is it?
03:53	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
03:53	fhd	clojurebot: I mean, this would be possible: [1 2 3 4]
03:53	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:53	amalloy	lol, i'm not clojurebot
03:54	fhd	oh, reading helps :)
03:54	fhd	amalloy: is that the way to use pairs in Clojure?
03:54	fhd	amalloy: I've seen the intimidating syntax necessary to create a cons...
03:55	amalloy	fhd: usually, if you want to return a group of data, you can return a hashmap, or a list, or a vector. i don't think there's much need for an explicit pair
03:55	fhd	amalloy: Wouldn't hurt I guess, just got used to it. Would a list or a vector be better then?
03:55	hiredman	if you want pairs you can create a pair protocol and extend it to vectors, hashmaps, lists, and seqs
03:56	fhd	hiredman: I'd rather go with the existing language features for the simple stuff I'm doing ATM.
03:56	amalloy	,(cons 1 [2]) ; if you like the reassuring cons syntax :)
03:56	clojurebot	(1 2)
03:57	_ato	fhd: to answer your question directly, no there's no pairs
03:57	kumarshantanu	,(doc cons)
03:57	clojurebot	"([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
03:57	amalloy	fhd: i think it depends on what you want. if your pair represents two different things, maybe you want a map
03:58	fhd	I wouldn't use that weird syntax. (1 . 2) is okay, but I find even (cons 1 2) too long, so I'll probably go with [1 2]
03:58	amalloy	,(let [pair {:x 10, :y 11}] (pair :x))
03:58	clojurebot	10
03:58	fhd	,(* 2 10)
03:58	clojurebot	20
03:58	fhd	I see.
03:59	hiredman	(cons 1 2) won't even work
04:00	amalloy	hiredman: it will in CL, which he was saying he finds too long
04:00	fhd	hiredman: Yeah, that's the problem. One has to create a seq or something, I'll pass.
04:00	hiredman	in clojure cons doesn't not create a "cons cell" it only adds an element to the start of seq
04:00	amalloy	it's been a while since i wrote CL; is (1 . 2) actually legal? it seems like the reader ought to try to evaluate 1 as a function
04:00	fhd	amalloy: I know that from Emacs Lisp to be honest, never did much CL.
04:01	fhd	amalloy: That's true, I always found it a bit weird too.
04:01	amalloy	fhd: well, there you go! an excuse to get away from inconsistent syntax :)
04:02	kryft	How is clojure for shell scripting, btw?
04:02	fhd	amalloy: Yeah. BTW, it has to be quoted, so it's kinda legal '(1 . 2)
04:02	amalloy	ah
04:02	amalloy	,'(1 2)
04:02	clojurebot	(1 2)
04:03	fhd	,'(1 . 2)
04:03	clojurebot	(1 . 2)
04:03	fhd	HM.
04:03	amalloy	fhd: that's a list with three elements
04:03	amalloy	,(count '(1 . 2))
04:03	clojurebot	3
04:03	fhd	amalloy: Ah, lol :)
04:04	fhd	I'll just go with a vector I guess, nicest syntax.
04:04	amalloy	the vector syntax is convenient for longer lists too, since you don't have to quote the whole list to avoid calling it
04:05	amalloy	,(let [a 10] ['f a 'a])
04:05	clojurebot	[f 10 a]
04:05	_ato	kryft: Clojure is terrible for shell scripting, the JVM is really unsuited to that sort of thing due both to startup time and the lack of unixy IO functions (no way to create a symlink for example, at least until JDK 7 is released).
04:06	_ato	at least if you mean actuing like a traditional shell anyway ;-)
04:09	amalloy	anyway good luck fhd. i'm often around if you want some more unhelpful answers, but for now i'm off to bed
04:09	fhd	amalloy: Yeah, thanks!
04:09	fhd	I'll have to continue working, so I'm off as well :)
04:11	kryft	_ato: Actually I guess 'shell scripting' was a bit misleading; I was thinking of stuff that I'd normally do with a python script (as opposed to stuff that I'd do with a bash script)
04:16	kryft	_ato: I typically use python for mangling data (machine learning research); the scripts often do require some IO (writing files and maybe creating symlinks) once the mangling is done.
04:17	hiredman	the jvm is generally not so good for short running processes, the startup time being prohibitive
04:19	_ato	I tend to use Pythoon/Ruby/Perl for quick-running stuff, or stuff that needs to do unixy things (fork, posix IO etc). For longer running text processing (like parsing log files and generating stats) I'll use Clojure
04:20	_ato	it depends though, often I just run things out of an emacs buffer so there's no startup time there. But it's not so easy to pipe into other commands and that sort of thing
04:40	lypanov	_ato / hiredman: whats wrong with using cake or nailgun to solve the startup time issue?
04:41	quizme	http://pastie.org/1209316 <--- :~(
04:41	quizme	sniff
04:41	quizme	is there a function version of and?
04:41	quizme	logical and
04:42	quizme	and in general what do you do if you want to use a macro in apply?
04:42	quizme	write a function version of the macro?
04:56	sandGorgon	I was looking at the alioth shootout between F# Mono and Clojure - CPU performance quite similar... but F#/Mono uses drastically less memory : in some cases 61X less memory!
04:56	sandGorgon	http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=fsharp&lang2=clojure
05:07	lypanov	sandGorgon: clojure on mono or jvm?
05:08	sandGorgon	lypanov, I think it is the jvm clojure that alioth uses. Is the clojure-on-clojure work done ? because I guess that would be the precursor to clojure being implemented on a lot of backends
05:09	lypanov	sandGorgon: could just be that sun/oracle suck. :) ;)
05:55	quizme	how do you do this? (apply and '(true true false))
05:57	mrBliss	,(every? identity '(true true false))
05:57	clojurebot	false
05:57	mrBliss	quizme: you can't apply macros
05:57	jarpiain	is there a function that returns a seq on a sorted-map starting from a given key?
05:58	mrBliss	jarpiain: you could use (drop-while #(not= % the-key) the-sorted-map)
05:58	jarpiain	mrBliss: but that takes O(n) to find the key
05:59	mrBliss	you're right
05:59	quizme	mrBliss is there a way to turn a macro into a function so that it can be applied?
06:00	quizme	or does that not make sense ?
06:00	mrBliss	quizme: rewriting the macro as a function ;-)
06:00	_ato	,(subseq (sorted-map 1 :a 2 :b 3 :c 4 :d) > 2)
06:00	clojurebot	([3 :c] [4 :d])
06:00	_ato	jarpiain: ^
06:00	mrBliss	quizme: when you want to apply a macro, you don't have enough information at compile time
06:01	quizme	mrbliss right...
06:01	_ato	quizme: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/apply-macro-api.html :p
06:02	mrBliss	but remember:^^ "This is evil. Don't ever use it."
06:04	jarpiain	_ato: thanks, somehow missed that
08:09	mada	hi all!
08:12	mada	I am building a small recipe database and have a question. In Clojure, if I want to loop over all the ingrediences in a number of recipies and summarize the ammount of each, assuming each recpipe is just a list/seq on the form (name number measure), what would be the standard way to do it? In elisp or other more imperative lisp I would just define a list variable with let and then increase each unique ingredient, but
08:12	mada	in Clojure things are immutable (apart from defs) so how would it work there?
08:13	carkh	you might use reduce
08:14	mada	carkh: k, will look that up
08:14	carkh	(let [summary (reduce add-receip-list-to-map-result {} receipes)] (print-summary summary))
08:14	jaley	mada: map the collection of recipes to a collection of amounts, then reduce with +
08:25	jaley	is there a function to break a map into a collection of [key value] vectors? i'm using (for [[k v] m] [k v]) right now, just wondering if it's necessary?
08:26	mrBliss	,(seq {:a 1, :b 2})
08:26	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2])
08:26	jaley	mrBliss: that's better - thanks!
08:43	LLLLL	hey guys
08:44	LLLLL	where do I read about ~' in macros, how does it work
08:44	LLLLL	seems to me like it doesn't do anything
08:46	mrBliss	,(let [x 1] `(x))
08:46	clojurebot	(sandbox/x)
08:46	mrBliss	,(let [x 1] `(~x))
08:46	clojurebot	(1)
08:46	mrBliss	can you see what ~ does? It evaluates x
08:47	LLLLL	it wasn't what I was looking for
08:47	LLLLL	for instance you have a long macro `( some code blah blah then ~'something)
08:48	LLLLL	,(let [x 1] `(~'x))
08:48	clojurebot	(x)
08:48	LLLLL	like this
08:48	mrBliss	sorry, I didn't read it well enough
08:49	mrBliss	,(let [x 1] `(x))
08:49	clojurebot	(sandbox/x)
08:49	mrBliss	the sandbox/ is the difference
08:49	LLLLL	I can see it lacks namespace, but I'm unsure what that's used for
08:49	carkh	it allows you to capture the symbol name in order to make it available to your macro user
08:50	mrBliss	if the x you want is in another namespace. I'll try to come up with a good example
08:52	LLLLL	i get it now
08:52	LLLLL	thx
09:25	jaley	(doc min)
09:25	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the least of the nums."
11:15	neotyk	Hi Clojurians
11:15	neotyk	anyone here using org-mode?
11:15	abrenk	yeah
11:16	neotyk	I'm trying to get second Wed of every month into my agenda <%%(diary-float t 3 2)>
11:16	abrenk	neotyk: sorry, that's more than I ever wanted
11:16	neotyk	why it doesn't appear in agenda view
11:16	neotyk	:(
11:16	neotyk	#org-mode is silent
11:17	neotyk	google doesn't know
11:17	neotyk	source code will talk to me
11:17	phaer	neotyk: It works for me. Maybe you missed some settings in your agenda file? the org mode mailinglist is much more responsive than the irc channel
11:18	neotyk	agenda file?
11:18	neotyk	I generate agenda from org file
11:22	phaer	neotyk: Ah sorry, i was talking about the agenda settings in your .emacs[.d] like "agenda-files".
11:30	neotyk	phaer: I do C-c a L
11:35	phaer	neotyk: Don't you have an org-agenda-file setting in your .emacs? I have one which includes serveral org files. And i've got a binding of "org-agenda-list" to f2. And if i press f2 i see all my tasks including the repeating one for which i use <%%(diary-float t 6 1)> etc.
11:39	neotyk	phaer: no org-agenda-file
11:39	neotyk	let me create one
11:46	Guest74051	How can I turn ((("banana" 3) ("apple" 2)), (("banana" 1) ("apple" 4) ("orange" 2))) into (("banana" 4) ("apple" 6) ("orange" 2))?
11:48	raek	,(merge-with + {:banana 3, :apple 2} {:banana 1, :apple 4, :orage 2}) ; a slightly different variant
11:48	clojurebot	{:orage 2, :banana 4, :apple 6}
11:50	raek	mada: normally the map data structure is used. there are many useful functions for them.
11:52	raek	I happened to use keywords as keys here, but you can use strings (or anything, actually) for keys if you like
11:53	neotyk	phaer: with org-agenda-files it works
11:53	neotyk	phaer: thank you
11:53	neotyk	+1 phaer
11:54	mada	raek: I plan to get the input as strings from a user, won't that be a problem?
11:54	mada	raek: sorry, I see now what you added :)
11:54	raek	then strings would be fine
11:54	mada	great
11:54	mada	raek: and I assume I can convert a list of pairs like this into a map easily?
11:56	jarpiain	,(into {} '(("banana" 3) ("apple 2")))
11:56	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
11:58	raek	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k v]) '(("banana" 3) ("apple" 2))))
11:58	clojurebot	{"banana" 3, "apple" 2}
11:59	jkkramer	,(into {} '(("banana" 3) ("apple" 2))) ;misplaced quote
11:59	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
11:59	jkkramer	ok guess not
11:59	raek	,(into {} (map vec '(("banana" 3) ("apple" 2))))
11:59	clojurebot	{"banana" 3, "apple" 2}
12:00	mada	raek: excellent! thanks!
12:00	raek	the thing conjed to a map has to be a MapEntry or a IPersistentVector of size 2
12:01	jkkramer	the norm is to keep data in vectors rather than lists
12:02	jkkramer	,(into {} [["banana" 3] ["apple" 2]])
12:02	clojurebot	{"banana" 3, "apple" 2}
12:02	mada	jkkramer: I see, a bit different than what I am used to but I guess it works as well.
12:03	mada	jkkramer: does a vector have any major disadvantages compared to a list for simple things like this?
12:03	jkkramer	mada: nope
12:04	raek	it is ideomatic to use vectors for literals for sequential things
12:04	jkkramer	lists are normally only used for code forms and special circumstances
12:05	raek	,(seq {"banana" 3, "apple" 2}) ; you can go the other way around too
12:05	clojurebot	(["banana" 3] ["apple" 2])
12:07	mada	k, thanks both of you!
12:07	phaer	neotyk: np :)
12:30	LLLLL	is there any good clojure API list like java has javadoc of whole Java 5 Api
12:30	LLLLL	just to see what functions are out there and what do they do
12:30	MayDaniel	clojure.github.com/clojure ?
12:30	LLLLL	since I keep finding myself programming functions just to find out they already exist
12:31	raek	http://clojuredocs.org/Clojure%20Core and http://clojuredocs.org/Clojure%20Contrib
12:31	kumarshantanu	LLLLL: you may try (1) (doc form), (2) ClojureDocs or (3) Autodoc
12:31	LLLLL	ok
12:31	raek	and http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core
12:32	raek	(by category)
12:32	raek	and this http://faustus.webatu.com/clj-quick-ref.html
12:32	raek	:-)
12:32	kumarshantanu	or perhaps this cheatsheet -- http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
12:33	LLLLL	thanks a lot
12:37	LLLLL	hm I seem to be missing a lot of namespaces
12:37	ohpauleez	LLLLL: What do you mean?
12:38	raek	some of the clojure.* namespaces was added in 1.2
12:38	LLLLL	well I can't find clojure.inspector
12:38	LLLLL	which is 1.0 I believe?
12:39	LLLLL	says it can't find inspect function
12:39	raek	how do you access things in them?
12:39	LLLLL	(ns test (:require clojure.inspector))
12:39	LLLLL	(inspect some-thing)
12:39	raek	LLLLL: use use in that case :)
12:39	KirinDave	You know, something that I've been wondering...
12:40	KirinDave	is it possible in an ns declaration to alias a namespace with only 1 path component?
12:40	LLLLL	what's the difference?
12:40	KirinDave	like let's say
12:40	raek	with require, it is (clojure.inspector/inspect some-thing)
12:40	KirinDave	(alias e 'example1)
12:40	raek	or (ns test (:require [clojure.inspector :as ins])) (ins/inspect some-thing)
12:40	LLLLL	works now thanks
12:40	ohpauleez	LLLLL: or you can use the ns qualifer. (ns test (:require clojure.inspector :as inspector))(inspector/inspect some-thing)
12:40	raek	(ns test (:use clojure.inspector)) (inspect some-thing)
12:41	LLLLL	the thing that worries me is if I write just
12:41	LLLLL	clojure.
12:41	LLLLL	and hit autocompletel
12:41	raek	(ns test (:use [clojure.inspector :only (inspect)])) (inspect some-thing)
12:41	LLLLL	it offers me very few namespaces
12:41	KirinDave	LLLLL: How many?
12:41	KirinDave	LLLLL: Should be just a handful.
12:42	raek	LLLLL: could e because they haven't been loaded. after a require or use, they should appear
12:42	LLLLL	shows me 10
12:42	raek	ohpauleez: you need to have a vector there, right?
12:42	ohpauleez	yes
12:43	ohpauleez	I messed it up
12:43	LLLLL	ok seems I need to load them with before they appear
12:43	raek	yes, I think it queries the clojure runtime for existing namespaces
12:43	raek	which only gets added if they are loaded
12:43	LLLLL	ok
12:44	LLLLL	good to know that
12:44	LLLLL	so "use" adds the functions of the namespace to use as unqualified
12:44	raek	yes
12:45	raek	a process called "referring"
12:45	raek	"use" is basically "require" and "refer"
12:46	raek	refer is very rarely used manually, though
12:47	raek	heh, I discovered C-c M-p yesterday... ("Switch the repl namespace to match the current buffer")
12:47	KirinDave	Oh.
12:47	raek	no need to write (in-ns 'se.raek.some.of.my.insanely.long.namespace.names) anymore...
12:47	KirinDave	That's a good key
12:48	KirinDave	I finally got autocomplete working in all my slime buffers. :\
12:48	KirinDave	It's still sorta janky how I do it, but it works!
12:48	raek	all the ones listed at http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure are very handy
12:49	KirinDave	C-c C-k is one I _never_ use.
12:49	raek	it's neat for getting line numbers for the fns
12:50	LLLLL	C-c TAB is autocomplete? Just TAB works for me
12:50	raek	they are not set if one sends them for evaluation with C-M-x
12:50	raek	I think that different in repl and code buffer for me
12:52	_ulises	hello all
12:54	ohpauleez	hi _ulises
12:55	_ulises	I have the newbie's dillema
12:55	_ulises	I have read Programming Clojure and I'm about to read The Joy of Clojure
12:56	_ulises	however, I don't feel like I'm doing enough progress
12:56	_ulises	I know it sounds silly, but after learning the basics of Clojure and learning how to write simple code, I'm sort of stuck using only clojure.core and following a semi-imperative semi-fp style
12:56	ohpauleez	_ulises: You'll the most from working through an entire project
12:56	_ulises	so, got any ... ah! good stuff ...
12:57	ohpauleez	The Joy of Clojure will help answer the "when" questions for you
12:57	ohpauleez	_ulises: What do you typically work on
12:57	_ulises	I am suffering the problem described here: http://prog21.dadgum.com/80.html
12:57	_ulises	well, I work on many things really
12:57	_ulises	:S
12:58	ohpauleez	I think a parallel web-scraper, that collects data, performs some ops on it, and does some viualization with it, is fun and a good project
12:58	_ulises	oh
12:58	_ulises	nice
12:58	carkh	how about something that helps you
12:58	_ulises	I could try a port of scrappy (a cawler written in python)
12:58	ohpauleez	Building a web system is fun too, let's deal with data and you have a usable product afterwards
12:58	_ulises	well, that blog post actually says: if you don't know what to work on, just work on something you would use
12:59	ohpauleez	_ulises: Porting might lead you the wrong way
12:59	_ulises	I feel rather silly coming to you with such dillemma :)
12:59	ohpauleez	because you'll try to take an imperative approach and force it into a functional one
12:59	ohpauleez	Don't ever feel silly
12:59	_ulises	ohpauleez: well, not strictly porting, but writing something similar, that's what I mean :)
12:59	ohpauleez	_ulises: Take a look at Enlive
12:59	_ulises	yeah, I guess I'm too eager
12:59	_ulises	I've only started learning/working with Clojure 1 1/2 months ago
12:59	ohpauleez	Thing about how you can use futures, maybe promises, perhaps agents
13:00	ohpauleez	and pmap
13:00	_ulises	,(doc pmap)
13:00	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f coll & colls]); Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates the coordination overhead."
13:00	_ulises	ooh
13:00	_ulises	nice
13:00	ohpauleez	Then take a look at incanter,
13:00	ohpauleez	and do some nice data visualization with it
13:01	_ulises	interesting
13:01	tomoj	if you want it to be parallel, look at aleph too
13:01	ohpauleez	tomoj: You're beating me to it!
13:02	_ulises	I am writing the ant demo at the moment just to get my dev-env set up properly and warm up
13:02	ohpauleez	_ulises: I would, generally speaking, just think about fun projects or areas I always wanted to play in (machine learning, AI, web stuff, etc), and just do a small project
13:03	ohpauleez	once you move forward, you'll get more ideas on other things you want to do
13:03	_ulises	that's a nice approach
13:03	_ulises	I think that my ultimate goal is to learn the language inside out
13:03	_ulises	and I think that by coding in it you do that
13:03	_ulises	so, yeah, great stuff, thanks ohpauleez :)
13:04	ohpauleez	_ulises: totally happy to help
13:04	_ulises	I will take a look at those libs/projects you mentioned and see what I can come up with
13:04	carkh	also when you feel your code is too imperative when it shouldn't, come here and show us, there are many helpfull people here
13:05	_ulises	ah, yes, that'd be very valuable
13:05	ohpauleez	for sure
13:05	_ulises	I've also realised that I tend to overcomplicate solutions
13:05	_ulises	pretty much all the time
13:05	ohpauleez	even those of us who do lot of clojure will post snippets for opinions
13:06	_ulises	there was this email to the ml about an fn that would take an input like [[:foo [1 2 3] [:bar [\a \b \c]]] and it would produce ({:foo 1 :bar \a} {:foo 2 :bar \b}...)
13:06	_ulises	and I came up with a really long and convoluted solution :/
13:08	ohpauleez	_ulises: That has more to do with familiarity of apply functions than anything else
13:08	ohpauleez	s/apply/applying
13:09	_ulises	heh, my solution involved lots of (apply map fn ...)
13:09	_ulises	on the happy side of things, I learnt that a sequence of apply will unpack a nested list structure
13:09	_ulises	which is awesome :D
13:09	raek	_ulises: I think the best way to learn and familirize with the libs is simply to code a lot.
13:10	_ulises	raek: yes, that's what I think as well, but when you don't know what to code, you're stuck reading blogs and trying silly things out in the repl but not much more
13:10	_ulises	raek: and at the same time I don't want to create any more abandon ware
13:10	_ulises	*abandonware
13:10	tomoj	unavoidable
13:10	_ulises	but ohpauleez has a point: I will just play with stuff I've always wanted to to and learn that way
13:10	raek	my first big project was a web system for tracking debts between the persons in my circle of friends
13:11	tomoj	great idea
13:11	raek	lately, I have been coding on an IRC library
13:11	tomoj	math is usually hard when I owe my friends money
13:12	_ulises	hah
13:12	raek	not much libs in that project. it used compojure, refs and files, basically
13:12	yavuz	raek: hmm...sounds like you could be the clearing house to net the debts and pocket a small fee...many a financial fortune is based on that idea ;P
13:14	_ulises	anyway, thanks for the advice chaps
13:14	_ulises	perhaps I should pay you for the psycoanalysis session :)
13:15	defn	wow this sucks.
13:15	defn	no more rooms left for clojure-conj
13:15	defn	im screwed.
13:20	Raynes	defn: I'll cry myself to sleep tonight. :(
13:20	defn	@clojure-conj tweeted that we had until the 11th and that there were plenty of rooms available. sigh
13:21	defn	I have a damn ticket, taboot.
13:21	defn	Not sure what I'm going to do now...
13:21	Raynes	A ticket to what? The conj?
13:21	Raynes	:o
13:22	defn	Yeah I have a conj ticket
13:22	defn	but no room
13:22	Raynes	And nobody has offered you the floor of their room yet?
13:22	Raynes	:\
13:23	_ulises	defn: did you see the email from the chap wanting to share a room?
13:23	_ulises	sorry, to the ML
13:23	carkh	maybe there is a park around with a comfortable bench =)
13:24	Raynes	carkh: It's in a park. :p
13:25	LauJensen	Hi guys :)
13:25	_ulises	hi LauJensen
13:26	esj	Evening Lau
13:27	Raynes	Afternoon, LauJensen.
13:27	defn	_ulises: i didnt but ill check it out
13:28	_ulises	defn: recently there was this chap wanting to share a room and his last email was along the lines of "ok, booked a room, it'll be $X for whomever wants to share it w/me"
13:28	_ulises	:)
13:29	Raynes	defn: If that doesn't work out, if you post an ML thread, I'm sure there is someone who would be happy to let you use a sofa bed or something. I mean, I'd happily let you sleep in our room if it came down to it, but I'm not sure they'll be anything in there but the floor for you.
13:30	_ulises	esj: whereabouts are you?
13:30	_ulises	(if you don't mind me asking)
13:30	defn	_ulises: if you can point out where that thread is id be obliged
13:30	defn	searching for clojure conj is somewhat difficult on the ML :)
13:30	_ulises	defn: sure, one sec.
13:31	Raynes	defn: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/t/5d147246206ff586
13:31	esj	_ulises: Her Majesty's Green and Pleasant Land
13:31	_ulises	esj: heh heh, that makes two of us I guess
13:32	_ulises	defn: what Raynes just said :)
13:33	defn	_ulises: got it, thanks Raynes -- email sent.
13:34	defn	late*
13:34	_ulises	defn: g'luck
13:35	defn	thanks :)
13:41	Raynes	defn: Keep me posted.
13:51	yayitswei	hello.
13:51	yayitswei	how do i iterate through every two elements in a list: for example (1 2 10 11) i want (1 2) (2 10) (10 11)
13:52	yayitswei	i want to remove numbers that are within 1 distance of the previous-- in the above case, the correct answer would be (1 10)
13:53	Raynes	-> (partition 2 (range 11))
13:53	sexpbot	⟹ ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7) (8 9))
13:53	Raynes	-> (partition-all 2 (range 11))
13:53	sexpbot	⟹ ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7) (8 9) (10))
13:53	hiredman	,(iterate rest [1 2 10 11])
13:53	hiredman	er
13:53	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
13:53	_ulises	woot! I've been needing that fn all along and wrote my own :(
13:53	yayitswei	ah, partition .. thanks
13:53	hiredman	,(take-while identity (iterate rest [1 2 10 11]))
13:53	yayitswei	haha _ulises
13:54	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
13:54	hiredman	,(take-while (comp identity seq) (iterate rest [1 2 10 11]))
13:54	clojurebot	([1 2 10 11] (2 10 11) (10 11) (11))
13:54	_ulises	:'(
13:55	Raynes	Partition doesn't do quite what you want here.
13:55	Raynes	I didn't read your message thoroughly enough.
13:55	hiredman	,(map (partial take 2) (take-while seq (iterate rest [1 2 10 11])))
13:55	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 10) (10 11) (11))
13:55	hiredman	,(butlast (map (partial take 2) (take-while seq (iterate rest [1 2 10 11]))))
13:55	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 10) (10 11))
13:59	mfex	,(partition 2 1 [1 2 10 11])
13:59	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 10) (10 11))
13:59	Raynes	-> (doc partition)
13:59	sexpbot	⟹ "([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as necessary to complete last partition upto n items. In... http://gist.github.com/618424
13:59	Raynes	Oh! a step!
13:59	Raynes	Awesome.
14:00	_ulises	indeed
14:00	yayitswei	,(partition 2 1 [1 2 10 11])
14:00	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 10) (10 11))
14:02	_ulises	,(partition 2 (interleave [1 2 3] [\a \b \c]))
14:02	clojurebot	((1 \a) (2 \b) (3 \c))
14:02	_ulises	woop
14:02	_ulises	good bye map
14:05	yayitswei	ok, so I got this
14:05	yayitswei	,(keep #(if (< 1 (- (last %) (first %))) (last %)) (partition 2 1 [1 2 10 11 20 21]))
14:05	clojurebot	(10 20)
14:06	yayitswei	a very newbie way of doing I'm sure, and it misses the first element
14:06	xcthulhu	Is there a way to use clojure to do concurrent programming (ie, map-reduce) over a bunch of computers on a LAN?
14:06	yayitswei	should be (1 10 20)
14:06	yayitswei	but otherwise it does what I want
14:11	hiredman	,(map first (filter #(= 1 (- (apply max %) (apply min %))) (butlast (map (partial take 2) (take-while seq (iterate rest [1 2 10 11 20 21]))))))
14:11	clojurebot	(1 10 20)
14:15	LauJensen	xcthulhu: Well, there's clojure-hadoop, and terracotta to look at
14:16	xcthulhu	LauJensen: Thank you! :D
14:16	LauJensen	xcthulhu: np. I actually have a blogpost on how to get started with clojure-hadoop of you need a kick start
14:17	LLLLL	(butlast "12345")
14:18	LLLLL	,(butlast "12345")
14:18	clojurebot	(\1 \2 \3 \4)
14:18	LLLLL	,(str (\1 \2 \3 \4))
14:18	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
14:18	LLLLL	hm
14:18	LLLLL	how do I get it back into string again
14:18	LauJensen	,(->> "12345" butlast (apply str))
14:18	clojurebot	"1234"
14:19	LauJensen	LLLLL: Or in short, instead of str, use (apply str (\1 \2...
14:19	LLLLL	whats ->> ?
14:19	LauJensen	->> threads the first item through the remaining forms as the last argument of them
14:19	sexpbot	⟹ #<core$_GT_ clojure.core$_GT_@189c698>
14:19	LauJensen	(->> 3 (+ 2)) becomes (+ 2 3)
14:20	LauJensen	(apply str (butlast "1234")) is the same as (->> "1234" butlast (apply str))
14:22	LLLLL	,(apply str (\1 \2 \3))
14:22	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
14:22	LLLLL	,(apply str '(\1 \2 \3))
14:22	clojurebot	"123"
14:23	LLLLL	(str '(\1 \2 \3))
14:23	LLLLL	,(str '(\1 \2 \3))
14:23	clojurebot	"(\\1 \\2 \\3)"
14:23	LLLLL	this clojure is funny shit
14:23	LLLLL	:P
14:23	kumarshantanu	,(apply str '(\1 \2 \3))
14:23	clojurebot	"123"
14:24	LLLLL	so many ways one can screw up
14:24	kumarshantanu	LLLLL: the key is - you should know what you are doing :)
15:09	yayitswei	hiredman: just saw your solution.. thanks!
15:12	ordnungswidrig	anybody using rainbow-parens?
15:13	amalloy	ordnungswidrig: i am, though i'm probly gonna stop soon
15:13	hiredman	I am getting used to having it off, it really bogs down moving around in a large file or a deeply nested expression
15:14	ordnungswidrig	for me it conflicts with clojure-test-mode
15:16	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: what slows me down more is that fontifying the slime compilation buffer takes longer than the compilation itself...
15:16	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: even for "0 compiler notes". Any chance to improve that?
15:17	Raynes	I still have rainbow parens. No particular reason. I don't look at parens anymore. I just haven't bothered to turn it off.
15:20	hiredman	shrug
15:21	ordnungswidrig	shrug who?
15:33	jaley	hi guys! would I be right in thinking the easiest way to use a SOAP service from clojure will be javax.xml.soap? I did some googling and couldn't find anything obvious in clojure...
15:51	LauJensen	jaley: Judging from the silence I think javax.xml.soap is your best bet :)
15:52	jaley	LauJensen: heh thanks.. actually I realized that's server-side now. seems apache axis is my best bet
15:52	LauJensen	Ah ok. Ive worked with Axis in the past. Was a little painful as I recall
15:52	jaley	LauJensen: d'oh...
15:53	LauJensen	jaley: Homer, is that you? :)
15:53	jaley	LauJensen: Marge?
15:54	ordnungswidrig	Maggie?
15:56	Raynes	Bart?
16:12	Derander	I am new to clojure. I have a list of CommPortIdentifiers from a java library. I have converted it to a lazy seq. I want to return a specific object from the list if it matches a predicate, and throw an exception if the object I'm looking for isn't in the list
16:14	Derander	Where should I look to figure out how to do this? Would it be idiomatic to filter it with reduce, return the result if there is one or throw an exception if the size is 0?
16:15	Raynes	-> (some #(= 4 %) (range 11))
16:15	sexpbot	⟹ true
16:15	Raynes	Bad example.
16:15	Derander	http://gist.github.com/618562 <-- this is the code that I'm trying to make better.
16:15	Derander	the goal is to return the CommPortIdentifier that matches the name I'm looking for
16:16	Raynes	-> (some #(and (= 4 %) %) (range 11)) ; was what I was trying to do.
16:16	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
16:16	Derander	Raynes: reaing clojure doc on some
16:16	MayDaniel	,(some #{4} (range 11))
16:16	clojurebot	4
16:16	Derander	hhaha.
16:17	Raynes	MayDaniel: hi5
16:17	Raynes	I knew I was forgetting something. :\
16:18	Raynes	-> (some #(and (= 4 %) %) (range 11))
16:18	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
16:18	Raynes	That must be a sexpbot bug.
16:18	Raynes	,(some #(and (= 4 %) %) (range 11))
16:18	clojurebot	4
16:19	Raynes	Anyways, some returns the first truthy result of applying the predicate function to an element of the list. You should be able to do what you want with it.
16:19	Derander	http://gist.github.com/618562
16:20	Derander	is what I came up with. it returns true if it finds the match. I'm not sure how you're getting some to return the actual value
16:20	Raynes	I used and.
16:20	Raynes	-> (and true "a value")
16:20	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
16:20	Raynes	What the hell, sexpbot.
16:20	Raynes	,(and true "a value")
16:20	clojurebot	"a value"
16:20	Derander	oh, I see.
16:20	Derander	missed the second %
16:21	Raynes	#(and (= (.getName %) port-name)) %) will do the trick.
16:21	Derander	yeah.
16:21	Derander	I didn't see the significance of the "and" and the %
16:21	Derander	second %
16:21	Raynes	Minus one of the inner closing parens, anyway.
16:22	Derander	Raynes, MayDaniel: thanks for your help.
16:23	Raynes	Also, if you're curious about his #{4} trickery, it's because sets are functions that look up their argument within themselves and return it if it exists, or nil otherwise.
16:24	Raynes	-> (#{4} 4)
16:24	sexpbot	⟹ 4
16:24	Raynes	-> (#{4} 3)
16:24	sexpbot	⟹ nil
16:24	Derander	that's nifty.
16:24	Raynes	When you're checking a sequence for literals, it's perfect.
16:26	Derander	clojure is frustrating because I'm used to writing in ruby. and ruby has a semi-functional style when it's idiomatic, so I recognize the names and concepts but can't implement them in clojure
16:26	Derander	because I don't know clojure's vocab yet.
16:32	yayitswei	what's the recommended way to deal with dates in clojure- joda? or is there a clojure date class
16:33	Raynes	yayitswei: The Java way. joda is a popular option. Check out clj-time.
16:33	yayitswei	raynes: ah, perfect. thank you
16:37	jk_	does anyone here know how the clojure run-time manages redefinining vars in a running program? is it atomic? is it safe to do "in production"? would the new values only get used for new threads? etc. maybe there is a good place to read about this.
16:39	ordnungswidrig	jk_: http://clojure.org/vars
16:40	ordnungswidrig	,(doc set!)
16:40	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:41	ordnungswidrig	jk_: you might want to use refs or atoms
16:41	jk_	ordnungswidrig: thanks. i had read that earlier but i'm wondering about the safety of, for example, using a remote repl into a running server app to redefine functions on-the-fly, like you might do in erlang. i don't get a good feel for how that works from this reading. it's not a local binding but rather redefinining a global
16:42	ordnungswidrig	jk_: ah, I see.
16:42	jk_	ordnungswidrig: more like applying bug fixes as hot code swaps
16:43	ordnungswidrig	so your question is more about the thread safety of (def)
16:44	jk_	well, as i understand it, all you are doing is binding to a var in def, defn, etc
16:44	jk_	ordnungswidrig: i mean when you are providing a value, obviously :)
16:44	ordnungswidrig	yes, it's a root bound var.
16:44	yayitswei	enlive question: how do you select for the working node? something like "self" ?
16:46	jk_	ordnungswidrig: so yes, i guess the question is about the thread safety of changing a root bound var.
16:47	ordnungswidrig	jk_: I think using (def foo x) works like (alter-var-root foo constantly x) and for alter-var root only atomicity is given. which means that every thread will see the change instantly.
16:47	yayitswei	for example the model is <li>some stuff</li> and I want to set the id attribute, <li id="1">some stuff</li>
16:47	ordnungswidrig	jk_: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/alter-var-root
16:47	jk_	ordnungswidrig: is it normal to try doing this kind of thing on a running system in production?
16:49	ordnungswidrig	jk_: for lispers in general yes. I don't know how safe it's in clojure, to be honest
16:50	jk_	ordnungswidrig: ok, thanks. and i didn't know about alter-var-root so that's good to know
16:50	ymasory	why does "" count as true in an if expression but not when you compare them using =?
16:51	amalloy	ymasory: everything but nil and false counts as true in an if
16:51	amalloy	but "" is not equal to true, because they are clearly different values
16:52	ymasory	oh i see, so if isn't really looking for a boolean result necessarily
16:52	bhenry	,(boolean "")
16:52	clojurebot	true
16:52	jk_	,(= "" "")
16:52	amalloy	right. i think it actually coerces to boolean, but that coercion turns almost everything to true
16:52	clojurebot	true
16:54	ymasory_	thanks amalloy
16:54	jarpiain	,(if (Boolean. false) "foo" "bar")
16:54	clojurebot	"foo"
16:54	jarpiain	it compares against null and the literal false, which is the same as Boolean/FALSE
16:55	jarpiain	,(identical? false Boolean/FALSE)
16:55	clojurebot	true
16:55	jarpiain	,(identical? false (Boolean. false))
16:55	clojurebot	false
16:55	bhenry	,(identical? false (boolean false))
16:55	clojurebot	true
16:56	amalloy	(the lesson here is if you ever see Boolean. in your code you might as well commit suicide now and save yourself the trouble)
17:00	jk_	,(if (.booleanValue (Boolean. false)) "foo" "bar")
17:00	clojurebot	"bar"
17:01	ordnungswidrig	jk_: you shall not use (Boolean.) :-)
17:01	jk_	i guess if you run out of memory, jarpiain's call might produce "bar" :)
17:02	jk_	ordnungswidrig: yes, there's no good reason to, unless some java interop demands it i guess. but calling a constructor isn't going to return nil or false in any case
17:02	ordnungswidrig	I hope oom throws and oome
17:04	AWizzArd	_ato: hi
17:18	AWizzArd	how can I type-hint a local with a primitive initializer in Clojure 1.3? I put a ^:static after defn, but this didn't work. I can’t say: (dotimes [^int i 80] ...)
17:20	ordnungswidrig	AWizzArd: Integer/TYPE
17:21	AWizzArd	produces the same error message
17:21	AWizzArd	"Can't type-hint a local with a primitive initializer."
17:24	LauJensen	AWizzArd: (defn ^:static [^long i] (dotimes [x i] ...)) If you want to make a primitive long inside the code, use (long 80)
17:24	hiredman	AWizzArd: (int 80)
17:24	KirinDave	And thus begins the perf poisoning.
17:24	hiredman	thats how you always type hint a local
17:25	KirinDave	In which everyone suddenly thinks that static binding is the _single most important_ feature of your code.
17:25	AWizzArd	yes, int 80 is what I use, but my aset is surprisingly slow
17:25	LauJensen	IIRC in 1.3 (class (int 3)) is Long
17:25	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Probably due to reflection then ?
17:25	AWizzArd	yesterday _ato pasted http://gist.github.com/616655 - look at the microbench-nolock
17:25	AWizzArd	LauJensen: I get no reflection warning.
17:25	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Which is the danger of arrays, they dont always warn on reflection
17:25	hiredman	then jump on one of the many "this is surprisingly slow on the alpha release of the code I am using" threads on the mailing list
17:26	AWizzArd	For _ato writing into a byte[] was 9x faster than writing into a ByteArrayOutputStream. For me writing into a baos is a bit faster than writing into an array.
17:26	ordnungswidrig	AWizzArd: you may publish my paste if you like.
17:28	AWizzArd	ordnungswidrig posted this too: http://clojure.pastebin.com/6Z0sW00E
17:30	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Both Christophe and I have posts where we show how to speed up slow asets which arent giving reflection warnings
17:31	jk_	is it idiomatic in clojure to use underscore '_' for unused parameters?
17:31	AWizzArd	LauJensen: you don’t happen to have a link, do you?
17:31	MayDaniel	jk_: Yes.
17:31	LauJensen	AWizzArd: no, but I can find them, sec
17:31	KirinDave	I'm slowly approaching the finish line for the first chapter I'm writing of my clojure book.
17:32	AWizzArd	,(let [ba (byte-array 100000000)] (time (dotimes [i 80000000] (aset ^"[B" ba (int i) (byte 0)))))
17:32	clojurebot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
17:32	AWizzArd	well, this is what I tried
17:32	LauJensen	AWizzArd: http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2009/10/15/multidim-arrays/
17:36	AWizzArd	hiredman: can you compare (let [baos (java.io.ByteArrayOutputStream. 100000000)] (time (dotimes [i 80000000] (.write baos 0)))) vs (let [ba (byte-array 100000000)] (time (dotimes [i 80000000] (aset ba i (byte 0))))) ?
17:36	AWizzArd	For me baos is faster, but I need to say (int 0)
17:36	AWizzArd	LauJensen: maybe you can paste those two too?
17:36	AWizzArd	into your repl
17:37	LauJensen	1) 558ms, 2) 93ms
17:37	Nikelandjelo	Is there a functions, which for seq (1 2 3 ) will return sequence of it's subseq, starting from beginning? f( [1 2 3] ) -> ( (1) (1 2) (1 2 3) )
17:38	MayDaniel	Nikelandjelo: I doubt it.
17:38	AWizzArd	LauJensen: excellent, exactly what I would expect. Because the BAOS is doing 80 mio calls that need to be locked, as .write is synchronized. But on my machine I get with Clojure 1.3: 1050 msecs for baos vs 1400 msecs byte[]
17:39	LauJensen	,(reductions vector [1 2 3])
17:39	clojurebot	(1 [1 2] [[1 2] 3])
17:39	LauJensen	Nikelandjelo: almost :)
17:40	AWizzArd	LauJensen: and please one more timing: (let [bb (java.nio.ByteBuffer/allocate 100000000)] (time (dotimes [i 80000000] (.put bb (byte 0)))))
17:40	LauJensen	AWizzArd: 163ms
17:41	AWizzArd	as expected
17:41	AWizzArd	thanks for trying those
17:43	MayDaniel	Nikelandjelo: (reductions #(conj %1 %2) [] [1 2 3]) is close.
17:44	LauJensen	,(letfn [(f [s] (reduce (fn [acc _] (conj acc (take (-> acc count inc) s))) [] s))] (s [1 2 3]))
17:44	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: s in this context
17:44	LauJensen	,(letfn [(f [s] (reduce (fn [acc _] (conj acc (take (-> acc count inc) s))) [] s))] (f [1 2 3]))
17:44	clojurebot	[(1) (1 2) (1 2 3)]
17:45	Nikelandjelo	Thanks :)
17:52	jaley	is it idiomatic to just call setters on a java object in a (do ) form? it makes me sad
17:53	TeXnomancy	jaley: doto is more common, but yes, sadness is a documented side-effect of side-effects.
17:54	LauJensen	Doto really helps make interop tolerable
17:55	jaley	TeXnomancy: :) I guess doto just saves me typing the object name a squillion times?
17:55	TeXnomancy	jaley: and it clearly delineates the extent of the setup of the java object
17:56	jaley	TeXnomancy: ah i see it returns the object, so presumably one would typically use it in a let?
17:57	jaley	TeXnomancy: then you're done with the nasty
17:58	LauJensen	jaley: exactly. The returning of the object is the key to happyness
18:00	iisjmii	Bit of a newbie question; I trying to install swank-clojure, for which I need swank-clojure.jar but I can't find it anyhwere. Where do get it? Do I need to compile it?
18:00	amalloy	,(drop 1 (reductions conj [] [1 2 3]))
18:00	clojurebot	([1] [1 2] [1 2 3])
18:00	amalloy	LauJensen, Nikelandjelo: ^ seems nicer
18:01	LauJensen	amalloy: no doubt :)
18:01	LauJensen	iisjmii: ELPA
18:02	iisjmii	LauJensen: I installed swank-clojure via ELPA succesfuly, when I start slime I get the question if I want to install clojure, it fails to do this, so I want to do it by hand, but I can't find swank-clojure.jar
18:03	LauJensen	iisjmii: http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure - should be easily buildable
18:03	iisjmii	LauJensen: Thx, I try and build it
18:03	jaley	iisjmii: I had issues with ELPA too - I pulled the code down from LauJensen's link, built it and stuck a symlink in ~/.clojure to the target jar
18:04	iisjmii	jaley: Thx, I try that
18:04	TeXnomancy	iisjmii: "lein install swank-clojure 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT" will do it
18:04	TeXnomancy	then you can just do "swank-clojure" at the shell and have it launch a standalone swank server
18:04	TeXnomancy	M-x slime-connect works from there
18:04	clojurebot	http://haacked.com/images/haacked_com/WindowsLiveWriter/IConfigMapPathIsInaccessibleDueToItsProt_1446B/works-on-my-machine-starburst.png
18:05	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: got some attitude today, I see
18:05	clojurebot	everyday is Rich Hickey Appreciation Day
18:05	mrBliss	http://graphjam.com/2010/10/09/funny-graphs-lonely-black-sheep-of-the\
18:05	iisjmii	Texnomancy: thx!
18:09	kutku	im trying to run: (def text (slurp "./text.txt"))
18:09	kutku	where should I put that file?
18:10	amalloy	kutku: try this to find out: (.getCanonicalPath (java.io.File. "."))
18:11	kutku	"C:\\Program Files\\NetBeans 6.9.1"
18:11	kutku	so I put the file there I assume :)
18:11	amalloy	well then, that's where to put it
18:11	Adamant	is Rich Hickey on here at all?
18:12	amalloy	Adamant: ping rhickey and find out (ie, he is here sometimes, but maybe not now)
18:12	Adamant	lol, that's all I needed to know
18:13	LauJensen	kutku: also see (System/getProperty "user.dir")
18:14	kutku	hes in :)
18:15	iisjmii	jaley: Thx it works
18:18	kutku	thank you
18:34	AWizzArd	hiredman: yes yes, I just tried Clojure 1.2 stable vs 1.3 from build.clojure.org, and 1.2 is much faster on aset
18:34	AWizzArd	must be cause of Alpha
18:42	gilbertleung	hi, i have a question regarding keys in clojure
18:42	gilbertleung	for example, if my map has keys ":key" and ":value"
18:42	gilbertleung	(sorry, just the key ":key")
18:42	gilbertleung	would it not be error prone to type ":key" all over my code
18:43	gilbertleung	if i make a typo ":keyy", then the value would be nil
18:43	gilbertleung	and it wouldn't be so obvious that i have made the mistake
18:43	gilbertleung	is there any good practice to solve this problem?
18:44	iisjmii	gilbertleung: what would you want to happen?
18:44	jarpiain	,(doc clojure.contrib.map-utils/safe-get)
18:44	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:44	hiredman	gilbertleung: well you are just as likely to mistype the name of a function
18:44	gilbertleung	it seems to me that if i mistype the name of a function
18:44	gilbertleung	i'd probably get an error that's more noticeable
18:44	hiredman	it depends
18:45	gilbertleung	e.g "symbol blah not found"
18:45	hiredman	unless the symbol exists and is bound to something else
18:45	gilbertleung	where as if i mistype a key, i'd run into no troubles unil the "nil" value screws sth up
18:47	AWizzArd	gilbertleung: you are right, this is a source of error. So, do a: (def my-key :key)
18:47	AWizzArd	and then access your map with my-key
18:47	gilbertleung	jarpiain: yes, i guess safe-get does kinda solve my concern
18:47	AWizzArd	This will be your constant, and if you make a typo, then there is a good chance that Clojure will catch it.
18:47	gilbertleung	AWizzArd: i considered doing that also
18:48	AWizzArd	In principle, a constant name should be surrounded by +’s
18:48	gilbertleung	but that would make it impossible to destructure a map in the function params
18:48	AWizzArd	(def +key+ :key)
18:49	AWizzArd	This is one of the disadvantages when working with flexible maps.
18:49	AWizzArd	More room for typos.
18:49	TeXnomancy	AWizzArd: you're thinking of Common Lisp
18:50	gilbertleung	hmm, okay thanks
18:50	AWizzArd	TeXnomancy: it makes senso to follow the established patterns of naming def’ed things with stars, and constants with +. It informs the reader and is good style.
18:50	gilbertleung	guess life can't be perfect
18:50	AWizzArd	gilbertleung: you can work with deftype, which needs predefinde keys
18:51	TeXnomancy	AWizzArd: calling some things "constant" and others not is leftover baggage from non-functional language
18:52	AWizzArd	TeXnomancy: objects that live in a def’ed var can change. This is why Clojure is not doing type inference on them. When I (let [something ..] ...) then something is known to be immutable and its type can be inferred, hints are not required. The pluses are a nice thing for people to catch.
18:53	AWizzArd	Stars and pluses allow me to fast see what is local and what is not. And what I have in stars might be changed in bindings, or for different program runs. What I see in plusses never changes.
18:53	TeXnomancy	AWizzArd: they don't change at runtime unless (a) they are reference types, in which case it will be obvious for other reasons or (b) you're doing something very wrong.
18:53	AWizzArd	the wrong thing could be (binding [hi ...] ...)
18:53	TeXnomancy	if you're rebinding you use earmuffs, because that's a special case
18:53	TeXnomancy	constants are not a special case
18:54	AWizzArd	They are a special case. I want to explain readers of my code what is fixed in the world.
18:54	AWizzArd	It is just good style and friendly for readers.
18:54	_ato	hehe.. in Clojure the default is constant so you mark the things that can change
18:55	_ato	in other languages the default is non-constant so you mark the things that are constant
18:55	AWizzArd	Everything named with var is subject to change, be it by binding or by changing the parameters for a program run.
18:55	AWizzArd	_ato: things that you (def ..) can hold different objects, even of different types via binding.
18:56	_ato	TeXnomancy: by the way, cut Clojars over to the new server last night. Were having trouble SSHing to it?
18:56	_ato	s/having/you having/
18:56	sexpbot	<_ato> TeXnomancy: by the way, cut Clojars over to the new server last night. Were you having trouble SSHing to it?
18:56	TeXnomancy	_ato: oh sweet! no, I haven't tried yet.
18:56	AWizzArd	Or people are supposed to edit the values. Or like in the ant.clj example of Rich we use the run variable at runtime on the repl, to stop the program.
18:56	AWizzArd	(def running false)
18:56	TeXnomancy	_ato: thanks for getting it moved over; I'm happy to see progress on that front
18:57	TeXnomancy	AWizzArd: everyone agrees about stars around rebound vars; it's the plusses for constants that are non-idiomatic
18:57	AWizzArd	I can agree that they are not used often. This is very rare indeed. But it definitly is cleaner to have a naming style for constants. And there are constants used from time to time.
18:58	AWizzArd	(def +second+ 1) (def +minute+ 60) (def +hour+ (* 60 +minute+)), etc
18:58	TeXnomancy	ok, I'm just saying that most people when they see that are going to think, "Oh, this code was written by a CL user, not someone who's gotten used to Clojure."
18:59	AWizzArd	When I see it then I think: oh, how nice of her to give me more information :-)
18:59	_ato	do you name functions like that as well? (defn +format-time+ ...) for they are also constants :p
19:00	AWizzArd	They are not.
19:00	AWizzArd	Often I start writing one, and later change it.
19:00	AWizzArd	I fix bugs, etc.
19:00	AWizzArd	Pi I never change.
19:00	AWizzArd	Or 16 I never change.
19:00	_ato	ah, so you only use it for magic numbers?
19:01	_ato	that sort of thing
19:01	AWizzArd	it is very rare
19:01	AWizzArd	But sometimes I def things and I know that there will never be a patch or bugfix or need to ever change them.
19:01	AWizzArd	My intention about this should be documented.
19:02	AWizzArd	For example, even if declaring something as 'final' in Java would never give performance advantages, I would still strongly suggest to use it always.
19:03	AWizzArd	This info is more useful than getting more performance (which is also nice of course)
19:03	TeXnomancy	that's because java is a language that encourages mutability
19:03	AWizzArd	There it is even more important.
19:03	AWizzArd	But in Clojure i can not know 100% that something will never changed.
19:04	AWizzArd	There could be patch that changes stuff
19:04	AWizzArd	(def x 19) might be (def x 22) in a week
19:04	_ato	I wouldn't call "things that are never changed in the source code" constants (that's not what final means). I don't know what I'd call them though, I guess the "stable API" but that just refers to the interface (their existence) not their value.
19:05	TeXnomancy	well, pi might be calculated with more accuracy in a future JDK; since it's irrational your representation of it is only an approximation
19:06	AWizzArd	I would even think about naming it π
19:06	AWizzArd	Anyway, naming constants with + is doing no harm, it is no loss of productivity, and well tell readers that something does not change.
19:06	iisjmii	When I edit a clj file in emacs and use C-c C-c to compile it I get the error "No such namespace:". I can prevent this by first compiling (in-ns 'clojure.core) in that file but it is annoying. Is this normal?
19:07	TeXnomancy	you're free to use your own coding conventions in your code, as fogus elegantly puts it: http://blog.fogus.me/2010/08/30/community-standards/
19:07	TeXnomancy	iisjmii: a) you need an ns form in your file and b) try C-c C-k for compiling in Emacs
19:07	AWizzArd	It is not my coding convention alone, but pretty much globally a convention for lisps
19:08	TeXnomancy	never seen it in elisp
19:08	AWizzArd	But sure, if somebody dislikes it, she can omit the +’s.
19:08	iisjmii	TeXnomancy: Ah thx
19:09	AWizzArd	Something that worries me much more is that I have seen so much Clojure code, and trillions of fns that don’t have doc strings.
19:09	AWizzArd	Good that at least in Clojure and Contrib nearly everything has one.
19:13	dnolen	Beyond JavaScript Prototype Chains, http://dosync.posterous.com/beyond-javascript-prototype-chains, comparing JS prototype chains and Clojure ad-hoc type hierarchies
19:13	dnolen	feedback appreciated as usual
19:14	AWizzArd	dnolen: did you spend a bit time with diving into types and Clojures way of handling them?
19:15	dnolen	AWizzard: yeah I'm suing the ad-hoc type stuff in a current project, so I got interested in doing a series comparing to JS, in particular because I know JS well and JS is popular, but has a different take on OO
19:15	dnolen	s/suing/using
19:15	AWizzArd	Because I got a maybe interesting question, and you may be able to shed some light on it.
19:16	dnolen	AWizzard: shoot
19:16	AWizzArd	For my high-performance Clojure serialization library I want to implement a new type. It will act mostly like a (java.io.DataOutputStream. (java.io.BufferedOutputStream. stream)), but much more efficient for serialization.
19:16	AWizzArd	Now there are many ways to do this. I could do it in Java, and it would be pretty clear how to do it.
19:17	AWizzArd	I want to do it in Clojure, and there I could use deftype.
19:17	AWizzArd	But: deftype can not inherit from classes, such as java.io.OutputStream.
19:17	AWizzArd	Then I thought that rhickey did this by purpose, because he understands that inheritance can lead to big problems.
19:17	AWizzArd	Now my question is: why can it lead to problems?
19:18	AWizzArd	Why is it good that the is-a of a type should come from Interfaces/Protocols, while classes should go into a has-a relationship?
19:18	AWizzArd	When I deftype this, there could be three slots: :output-stream :buffer and :counter, while the :counter will be mutable.
19:19	dnolen	AWizzard: I thought about this today and have only my own perspective, before and after methods in CL are a symptom of a problem
19:19	AWizzArd	The result is that my deftype will not be an OutputStream, and can not be used in such places.
19:19	dnolen	people think before and after methods are cool, but they actually are there to a problem that sucks
19:19	dnolen	when you override a inherited method you have to know "when" to call it
19:20	AWizzArd	dnolen: yes, because those before/after methods can sit in totally different files, and I also stumbled upon this in the past. Very dangerous, as suddenly my state changed, and I did not understand why, until I found the after modifier.
19:20	dnolen	particular nasty during construction or tear down
19:20	dnolen	but it's a direct results of inheritance
19:21	AWizzArd	So, this basically means that Sun should have made OutputStream an Interface I guess.
19:22	dnolen	in Objective-C it rears it's ugly head in the notion of the "designated initializer"
19:22	AWizzArd	Concretly for my situation I have to decide what I want: high-performance deftype, but this will not be an OutputStream then. Or I can go with gen-class and have a :state slot, but this would be a ref as I understand it, and is not as efficient as deftypes mutable slots.
19:22	dnolen	inheritance is basically effed
19:24	dnolen	AWizzard: but defrecord is plenty fast, if you don't mind a bit of memory tradeoff I think, if you're not making a bunch of them it's not a big deal.
19:24	AWizzArd	deftype.. I think I will go with deftype.
19:25	dnolen	AWizzard: why are you making many instances?
19:25	AWizzArd	no, but I will probably need a counter.
19:25	AWizzArd	And that needs to be mutated
19:27	_ato	dnolen: I'm enjoying your Javascript/Clojure series. The way you're comparing them really makes for an interesting read. :-)
19:27	dnolen	_ato: thx!
19:27	kutku	I assume this is the definition of a clojure function, can someone please explain what attr-map is?
19:27	kutku	(defn name doc-string? attr-map?
19:27	kutku	([params*] body)+ )
19:28	chouser	kutku: I think that's just metadata
19:28	chouser	a map that will be applied as metadata to the var and function
19:28	kutku	ok, ill leave that for now then
19:29	kutku	and also, what does the + sign after body men?
19:29	kutku	mean*
19:29	chouser	one or more
19:29	AWizzArd	dnolen: also it is about the idea behind my type. It feels more baic to me, so it should be a deftype, not a defrecord.
19:29	AWizzArd	IO streams don’t feel like maps.
19:29	dnolen	AWizzard: that's true
19:29	chouser	kutku: you can have multiple param-body pairs for different number of params
19:30	ataggart	anyone run into an issue with cake/lein trying and failing to find org.apache.maven:super-pom:jar:2.0
19:30	AWizzArd	But the issue stays: when Sun decided to go with an abstract base class, then my deftypes can't be an is-a of that type.
19:31	kutku	chouser: ok thanks, similar to a java consuctor?
19:31	AWizzArd	and it is even a bit more complicated, because a deftype can not even have-an instance of such class
19:33	TeXnomancy	ataggart: super-pom just means "the thing you're trying to build". you've probably got a typo in :dependencies
19:33	ataggart	I haven't touched the project.clj file gen'd by lein.
19:34	ataggart	I used lein new <proj name>
19:34	ataggart	cd to that prooject, run lein repl, it starts downloading, then dies on the above
19:34	TeXnomancy	must be a network glitch
19:36	chouser	kutku: sure, or any java method. but you don't repeat the name of the method in the source code, and the overloading is only on the number of args, not their types.
19:38	kutku	ok thanks!
19:41	kutku	is it true that functions with names ending with ? only return true or false?
19:42	chouser	kutku: that is a recommended naming scheme, but not enforced by the language in any way
19:42	Raynes	That is a convention for functions that return either true or false. That doesn't mean that everybody will adhere to the convention, and it isn't enforced.
19:42	Raynes	chouser: You beat me by 3 seconds thanks to my verbosity. :(
19:42	chouser	As the gentleman from Alabama said.
19:43	TeXnomancy	kutku: they return a value that's intended to be interpreted as truthy or falsey, not necessarily the true/false value
19:43	kutku	thx
19:44	Raynes	It appears that the convention is to name functions with a question mark only if they return true or false. As demonstrated by every? and some in clojure.core.
19:44	Raynes	At least, that's what I gathered.
19:44	amalloy	clojure surely has an exponentiation function built in, doesn't it? i can't find it
19:44	freakazoid	Yeah, they're called predicates.
19:45	TeXnomancy	Raynes: clojure.core/some shouldn't be taken as a paragon of naming; it's a terrible name taken from common lisp
19:45	freakazoid	amalloy: presumably in clojure.contrib.math
19:46	chouser	amalloy: Math/pow
19:46	chouser	it's built into Java. :-)
19:46	amalloy	oh, that silly java
19:46	amalloy	won't get integers back though, for large integral base
19:47	AWizzArd	amalloy: you can also try BigDecimals .pow
19:47	AWizzArd	,(.pow 2M 16)
19:47	clojurebot	65536M
19:48	amalloy	i found it in clojure.contrib.math
19:48	kutku	how come this does not work:
19:48	TeXnomancy	is there a subvec for arrays?
19:48	kutku	,(re-split #"\W+" "A fine day it is" )
19:48	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: re-split in this context
19:48	AWizzArd	I thought that one is a static method
19:48	bhenry	amalloy: this isn't so hard (defn pow [x y] "x to the y" (apply * (repeat y x)))
19:48	amalloy	kutku: you need to escape the \, i think
19:48	AWizzArd	TeXnomancy: no, not as you probably want
19:48	kutku	ohh, I need to import the function
19:49	freakazoid	bhenry: that would be quite slow
19:49	freakazoid	particularly with bignums
19:49	bhenry	ah true
19:54	chouser	TeXnomancy: you could use (PersistentVector/create the-array) and subvec that.
19:55	chouser	oh, nm
19:55	TeXnomancy	chouser: thanks... I think I should be working with strings instead of byte arrays anyhow here in retrospect
19:55	chouser	that used to return a PersistentArrayVector or something I think -- now it's basically just (into [] the-array)
19:58	AWizzArd	what about a (vector-of :byte)?
19:59	AWizzArd	,(doc vector-of)
19:59	clojurebot	"([t]); Creates a new vector of a single primitive type t, where t is one of :int :long :float :double :byte :short :char or :boolean. The resulting vector complies with the interface of vectors in general, but stores the values unboxed internally."
20:09	karmazilla	are there any known issues with the combination of defprotocol, reify and AOT compilation?
20:10	scgilardi	mail
20:38	kutku	http://pastebin.com/hLwXBy38
20:38	kutku	that outputs to console right, how do I output to file?
20:42	bhenry	,(doc spit)
20:42	clojurebot	"([f content & options]); Opposite of slurp. Opens f with writer, writes content, then closes f. Options passed to clojure.java.io/writer."
20:43	kutku	I was thinking about using Java I/O
20:46	bhenry	kutku: http://gist.github.com/487537
20:46	bhenry	you should get the idea from that
20:49	kutku	txh
20:52	kutku	bhenry: I found this code online, how can I use it?
20:52	kutku	http://pastebin.com/edW73fi5
20:53	bhenry	looks like that's how you'd create an output stream without using clojure.java.io/output-stream the way i did in that gist.
21:22	gilbertleung	hi
21:22	gilbertleung	is there anyway to "throw an error" in clojure
21:22	scottj	(Exception.)
21:26	ataggart	(throw (Exception.))
21:28	scottj	I always forget that part :)
21:29	kutku	im suprised that you don't need a println or system.out to print strings in clojure
21:31	scottj	how do you print them w/o a println?
21:31	kutku	(defn is-small? [number]
21:31	kutku	(if (< number 100) "yes" "no" ))
21:32	kutku	or maybe im missing something here
21:32	scottj	it just displays in the repl
21:33	scottj	it wouldn't actually print to the screen in a running program
21:33	kutku	what's the difference?
21:33	kutku	oh..
21:33	kutku	it's like printing to console
21:34	scottj	it's like a function that returns a string
21:34	scottj	s/like//
21:34	sexpbot	<scottj> it's a function that returns a string
21:41	ataggart	anyone know of non-trivial examples/documentation for compojure?
21:44	kutku	srsly, what does this mean: This is an example of a side effect. The println doesn’t contribute to the
21:44	kutku	return value of is-small? at all. Instead, it reaches out into the world
21:44	kutku	outside the function and actually does something.
21:50	amalloy	kutku: functions return things. in an ideal world, what they return would be the thing they did
21:51	amalloy	if the behavior of functions depends on, or influences, external factors, then it becomes much harder to confirm that they will always do what you expect
21:52	amalloy	*would be the ONLY thing they did
21:52	kutku	ok makes sense thanks
21:55	kutku	what does conj do?
21:56	amalloy	,(doc conj)
21:56	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
21:56	kutku	tx
21:56	kutku	thx
21:57	kutku	.... (recur (conj result x) (dec x))))
21:57	kutku	what triggers first, dec or conj?
21:57	amalloy	kutku: conj, probably, but it doesn't matter because neither of them has side effects
21:58	kutku	hmm, I need to get into that way of thinking
21:58	kutku	I would of guessed dec, conj and then recur
21:59	blbrown_win3_	can I do a static import on a class in the default package. import static Function.compose;
21:59	amalloy	kutku: in C, it would look like recur(conj(result, x), dec(x)), right?
21:59	kutku	or ur right, they are paremeters to the function recur, so it does not matter
21:59	kutku	ya
21:59	kutku	I see it now.
21:59	blbrown_win3_	well that is wacky. http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4989710
22:02	amalloy	blbrown_win3_: java discourages the use of the default package. if something doesn't work for the default package, you probably shouldn't be doing it anyway :)
22:07	kutku	what is mutable
22:15	kutku	what does it mean when they say "no direct mutable variable"
22:15	amalloy	kutku: modifiable
22:15	kutku	thx
22:16	brweber2	hey, anyone around?
22:16	amalloy	kutku: i'm not paying much attention to irc, but if you say amalloy it'll make some noise and i'll check back for your question
22:16	kutku	thats very nice of you, thanks
22:27	kutku	it is important that I cover metadata?
22:40	amalloy	kutku: eventually, it's probably a good idea. but i have only a vague idea of how it works and i get by