#clojure – 2010-08-28

2010-08-28

00:12	slyrus	it took me a little while, but: (defmacro defn* [fn-name & rest] `(intern (symbol ~(namespace fn-name)) (symbol ~(name fn-name)) (fn ~(symbol (name fn-name)) ~@rest)))
00:12	slyrus	seems to do what I want
00:13	slyrus	(defn* chemiclj.core/make-atom ...)
00:15	slyrus	yeah, that's great, except for the NPE on a clean restart. hmm ):
00:18	slyrus	ah, no graceful failure if I don't provide an ns-qualified fn-name
00:18	gregh	ping
00:19	gregh	erp
00:48	slyrus	in case you want to read my writeup of the ns hackery: http://slyrus.github.com/2010/08/27/chemiclj-namespaces.html
02:00	tomoj	anyone else still getting the 'default-repos does not exist' error with native-deps 1.0.3?
02:02	tomoj	oh, hmm, default-repos does exist.. strange
02:19	notsonerdysunny	what does this mean? I created the jreality-native-deps clojar.. When I fetch the library via "lein deps" I get.. [WARNING] POM for 'org.clojars.sunilnandihalli:jreality-native-deps:pom:0.1:compile' is invalid. It will be ignored for artifact resolution. Reason: Not a v4.0.0 POM. for project
02:19	notsonerdysunny	can anybody tell me what this means?
02:21	notsonerdysunny	I get a NullPointerException when I run "lein deps" without doing a "lein clean" .. is this expected?
02:21	tomoj	you have modelVersion 0.1 in your pom
02:21	tomoj	it should be 4.0.0
02:23	notsonerdysunny	thanks tomoj
02:25	notsonerdysunny	tomoj I get a NullPointerException when I run "lein deps" without doing a "lein clean" .. is this expected?
02:26	tomoj	I got that too a bit ago with overtone
02:26	tomoj	it's certainly not intended behavior though..
02:27	tomoj	doesn't seem to affect all projects, so I don't have a clue where the bug is
02:28	notsonerdysunny	oh ic
02:28	notsonerdysunny	hmmm
03:04	bortreb	how can I make an array of chars in clojure?
03:05	bortreb	nm -- it's (into-array Character/TYPE (seq "sdfasf"))
03:06	fliebel	morning
03:12	slyrus	bortreb: or (char-array "this-is-crazy")
03:14	bortreb	nice --- I like char-array
03:19	notsonerdysunny	,(char-array "this-is-crazy")
03:19	clojurebot	#<char[] [C@793a99>
03:20	notsonerdysunny	,(vec "this-is-crazy")
03:20	clojurebot	[\t \h \i \s \- \i \s \- \c \r \a \z \y]
03:20	slyrus	,(aget (char-array "this-is-crazy") 0)
03:20	clojurebot	\t
03:22	notsonerdysunny	is clojars slow? I am trying to scp a clojar and been unsuccessfull... :(
03:22	notsonerdysunny	clojars.org
03:42	notsonerdysunny	is there an alternative to clojars.org where I can upload my jars?
03:47	seangrove	What is a ctor?
03:47	seangrove	clojurebot: help?
03:47	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
03:47	bortreb	constructor
03:47	seangrove	Thanks
03:47	bortreb	np :)
04:14	notsonerdysunny	when I searched for jogl on clojars .. I found a bunch of them .. does anybody have a suggestion as to which one to use?
04:47	seangrove	How would I generate a sequence of integers from 0 to 1000?
04:47	seangrove	And yes, this is project euler related :)
04:49	seangrove	got it
04:49	seangrove	range
05:11	fliebel	Anyone knows a project euler challenge that does challenge my Clojure skills, but not so much my math skills? I want to warm my fingers with some Clojure without cracking my brain on math.
05:22	mrBliss	fliebel: I find these problems https://sites.google.com/site/prologsite/prolog-problems/1 most of the problems can be solved with an already existing clojure function, but try it using only recursion, first, rest and cons
05:22	mrBliss	s/find/like/
05:22	sexpbot	fliebel: I like these problems https://sites.google.com/site/prologsite/prolog-problems/1 most of the problems can be solved with an already existing clojure function, but try it using only recursion, first, rest and cons
05:24	fliebel	mrBliss: I'll have a look
05:30	fliebel	what's the opposite of butlast?
05:32	arbscht	in which sense?
05:32	fliebel	something that returns the list except for tis first item.
05:32	mrBliss	fliebel: do you mean rest
05:33	fliebel	yea..
05:34	fliebel	I really miss slices in Clojure. In python you can do all this stuff with slices.
05:35	mrBliss	fliebel: write your own slice function with concat, drop and take
05:36	fliebel	looks up the docs This how I'd do it in Python: range(100)[-2::-1]
05:40	fliebel	mrBliss: I can see you you could do the start and lenghts part of a slice, but negative numbers and the step parameter requires some more magic.
05:40	mrBliss	,(doc range)
05:40	clojurebot	"([] [end] [start end] [start end step]); Returns a lazy seq of nums from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive), by step, where start defaults to 0, step to 1, and end to infinity."
05:43	fliebel	mrBliss: Yea, but that is only for a generated range, not for any random seq.
05:44	mrBliss	,(find-doc #"nth")
05:44	clojurebot	------------------------- clojure.contrib.seq/rand-elt ([s]) DEPRECATED. Prefer clojure.core/rand-nth. Return a random element of this seq ------------------------- clojure.contrib.seq-utils/rand-elt ([s]) DEPRECATED. Prefer clojure.core/rand-nth. Return a random element of this seq ------------------------- clojure.core/nth ([coll index] [coll index not-found]) Returns the value at the index. get returns nil if index out
05:45	mrBliss	fliebel: try (find-doc #"nth") in your repl, you'll see some better functions than the ones clojurebot knows
05:45	fliebel	mrBliss: Thank you :)
05:47	fliebel	muhahaha! my very inefficient palindrome list calculator
05:47	fliebel	,(let [l [1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1]] (every? #(= (first %) (last %)) (map vector l (reverse l))))
05:47	clojurebot	true
05:48	fliebel	Any better solutions?
05:49	mrBliss	(if (< (count l) 1) true
05:49	mrBliss	(and (= (first l) (last l)) (recur (rest (butlast l)))))
05:51	fliebel	mrBliss: Let me chew on that… if… recur… chop… lenght…. sounds like a nice solution
05:53	fliebel	I can't figure out how recur works in this context...
05:54	mrBliss	fliebel: calls the same function again
05:54	fliebel	which function?
05:54	mrBliss	oh yeah, wrap it in (defn palin? [l] ...)
05:55	fliebel	ah, that was the missing part of the puzzle.
05:55	mrBliss	fliebel: sorry about that. Some microbenchmarks point out that your functions is actually faster
05:55	mrBliss	s/functions/function/
05:55	sexpbot	fliebel: sorry about that. Some microbenchmarks point out that your function is actually faster
05:56	fliebel	mrBliss: Mine can actually be made twice as fast by chopping l in halg
05:56	fliebel	*half
05:57	mrBliss	fliebel: butlast is linear, that's probably why mine is slower
05:57	mrBliss	fliebel: yours is quite clojure-y, mine is more scheme-y
06:01	fliebel	mrBliss: This looks more like it:
06:01	fliebel	,(let [l [1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1]] (every? #(= (first %) (last %)) (map vector (take (/ (count l) 2) l) (reverse (drop (/ (count l) 2) l)))))
06:01	clojurebot	true
06:02	fliebel	hooray fro readability :D
06:03	mrBliss	fliebel: nice
06:04	fliebel	mrBliss: Only due to integer devision [1 2 3 4 5 666 5 4 3 2 1] also returns true.
06:04	mrBliss	fliebel: that list is palindromic
06:04	fliebel	You're right
06:05	fliebel	So what I was saying… due to the fantastic integer devision this even works for odd lenght lists :DF
06:06	mrBliss	fliebel: very clever ;-)
06:17	patrkris	is there anything inherent to Vim that makes it more difficult to create a SLIME-like thing? is emacs better suited for that?
06:17	patrkris	just wondering
06:21	Chousuke	As far as I know the main reasons are that 1) vimscript sucks and 2) that vim is not really designed to interact with external programs.
06:21	patrkris	ah
06:21	patrkris	sad thing with vimscript
06:22	patrkris	never wrote much in vimscript besides what goes in .vimrc and various ftplugin files
06:22	patrkris	Chousuke: do you use emacs or vim for clojure development?
06:22	Chousuke	emacs
06:23	Chousuke	I mostly use vim only for quick edits nowadays.
06:24	incandenza	qq
06:24	incandenza	oops
06:25	kwertii	Emacs is actually a general-purpose Lisp interpreter that happens to come with some text editing programs preloaded. Vim is "just" a text editor
06:26	patrkris	:)
06:26	Chousuke	ostensibly :P
06:27	patrkris	i have often thought about learning emacs, but I think I'm turned off by the meta-key thing
06:27	patrkris	i would hate having to hold Ctrl or Alt all the time
06:27	Chousuke	There's actually a vi emulator for emacs.
06:27	patrkris	but that's probably one of the main gripes by most users
06:27	patrkris	coming from vim
06:27	patrkris	yeah, heard about that
06:27	fliebel	yay, next problem solved:
06:27	fliebel	,(let [l [1 1 1 2 3 3 1 1 4 4 4 4]] (reduce #(if (= (last %1) %2) %1 (conj %1 %2)) [(first l)] (rest l)))
06:27	fliebel	Chousuke: Nice word to use… I learnt that word while reading an xkcd comic about lisp. (i'm dutch)
06:27	clojurebot	[1 2 3 1 4]
06:27	Chousuke	but it doesn't work so well with most plugins :/
06:28	fliebel	clojurebot: just in time ;)
06:28	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boys from the men.
06:28	kwertii	patrkris: if you do take the plunge, it's _far_ easier to use if you swap Ctrl and Caps Lock, like on a Sun keyboard
06:28	ssideris	good morning
06:28	fliebel	morning
06:29	patrkris	kwertii: yes, but right now I have CapsLock mapped to Esc because of Vim :)
06:29	kwertii	patrkris: ugh :)
06:29	patrkris	kwertii: actually non-trivial to get working on Apple hardware
06:30	patrkris	kwertii: but essential for Vim I think
06:30	fliebel	OF WHAT USE IS CAPSLOCK ANYWAY, EXCEPT FOR CLAIMING IT'S STUCK?
06:30	kwertii	I dream of owning a USB space cadet keyboard someday. the one with Alt, Meta, Super, Hyper, etc. keys
06:31	patrkris	hah
06:32	Luyt	You could use a Windows keyboard and relabel the Windows and Menu keys
06:33	kwertii	Luyt: It wouldn't be the same :)
06:33	kwertii	and anyway I need more keys than that
06:33	Luyt	not really no... the space cadet keyboard also weighted 10 kilos and was made with steel plating
06:34	kwertii	Luyt: ... adding considerably to its awesomeness
06:35	Luyt	I still have a 25 year-old PC AT keyboard
06:35	kwertii	I wonder how much it'd cost to do a production run of ergonomic USB space cadet keyboards
06:37	fliebel	kwertii: I bet there is a huge market of vim users for them. You should do it :)
06:37	kwertii	Luyt: can you get a usb adapter for that?
06:37	Luyt	Not sure. It has a big DIN connector. Somewhere I must have an adapter cable from large DIN to small DIN.
06:40	fliebel	what? lambda is actualy a greek letter?
07:07	ssideris	sooo
07:07	ssideris	I have this record:
07:07	ssideris	(defrecord (point) [coords colour])
07:07	ssideris	and then I have this (test) function:
07:08	ssideris	(defn look-at-point [{[x y z] :coords, [r g b a] :colour}] ...
07:08	ssideris	several print statements follow
07:08	ssideris	is there any way to avoid putting this whole destructuring thing in every function that deals with points?
07:08	ssideris	can I reuse it?
07:15	mrBliss	"Alias s already exists in namespace user, aliasing clojure.contrib.string", how do I remove an alias for a namespace without restarting my repl?
07:15	mrBliss	ns-unmap doesn't help
07:25	hoeck	mrBliss: ns-unalias
07:25	incandenza	ns-unalias ?
07:26	mrBliss	thanks, quite obvious
08:40	arnorhs	hey guys
08:40	arnorhs	I'm a n00b trying to start using clojure
08:40	arnorhs	And I haven't done any java development in 10 years and never any web development
08:41	arnorhs	I've got clojure running
08:41	arnorhs	so far so good
08:41	arnorhs	but can you recommend a good guide for doing web development in clojure
08:43	kilofu	I'm not much more than a noob myself
08:43	kilofu	but I've been hearing good things about compojure
08:44	arnorhs	is that a framework?
08:44	kilofu	ya
08:44	kilofu	a minimal framework
08:45	arnorhs	I come from a PHP background and I don't know what type of webserver you run clojure through or how it works
08:45	arnorhs	Can I use apache?
08:45	arnorhs	I runs as a process, right?
08:46	mrBliss	you can use different webserver for compojure, but I think jetty is the default
08:46	mrBliss	http://weavejester.github.com/compojure/
08:47	mrBliss	s/webserver/servers/
08:52	arnorhs	jetty
08:52	arnorhs	ok, that's what I was looking for
08:52	arnorhs	and lein is like gem for ruby or something?
08:53	mrBliss	not entirely
08:53	mrBliss	I don't fully know gem, but lein is only for your own projects
08:53	mrBliss	you don't install programs with it, only libraries
08:53	arnorhs	ahh ok
08:54	mrBliss	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
08:54	arnorhs	yeah, I've got that set up
08:55	mrBliss	I don't really know Rake, but it looks like Ruby's leiningen
08:56	arnorhs	I don't really know ruby :)
08:56	arnorhs	I've just dabbled around in it
08:56	arnorhs	didn't seem to be that much it had to offer over php
08:56	arnorhs	syntax wise
08:56	arnorhs	I've been writing really weird php code for years anyways
08:57	arnorhs	usually my code becomes really long lines of stuff and I'm always trying to help my self write as less code as possible
08:57	arnorhs	and there's just stuff in the syntax that I'm really tired of
08:57	arnorhs	that I can't shorten
08:57	arnorhs	I'm a slow typer and I hate writing a lot of code to do simple things
08:57	arnorhs	I'm hoping clojure will help me :P
08:58	arnorhs	Since clojure code looks like my php code
08:58	mrBliss	what do you mean? it looks the same?
08:59	arnorhs	I do everything in arrays in PHP
08:59	arnorhs	I have a lot of magical array functions that I've used and do a lot of function callback hacking and stuff like that
08:59	arnorhs	php's arrays are really powerful and 99% of php developers don't know how to use them right
08:59	arnorhs	And I'm not a big fan of OO programming
09:00	arnorhs	I used to, when I started out and was in school
09:00	arnorhs	but through the years I've gradually written fewer and fewer classes
09:00	arnorhs	at least smaller
09:00	mrBliss	It annoys me that you can't do get_array()[0] in PHP (till recently)
09:00	arnorhs	yeah, that's true
09:00	ssideris	arnorhs: if you like to write concise code, i think you'll like the fact that clojure has macros
09:01	arnorhs	yes, I've been looking at a lot of clojure examples
09:01	mrBliss	ever played with another lisp?
09:01	arnorhs	and they look powerful
09:01	arnorhs	no
09:01	arnorhs	I tried classic lisp, don't remember what it was, ANSI lisp maybe?
09:01	arnorhs	anyways
09:01	arnorhs	that was a long time ago
09:01	mrBliss	Exactly my experience: http://xkcd.com/224/
09:02	arnorhs	And it was horrible with all the different compilers out there and everything was just so much trouble
09:02	arnorhs	I got inspired to write lisp first a few years ago when I read PG's hackers and painters essay
09:02	arnorhs	and dabbled around
09:02	arnorhs	but that pretty much sucked :P
09:03	arnorhs	mrBliss: that's a good one :P
09:03	arnorhs	I've been hearing about clojure a lot lately, but I didn't realize it was a lisp
09:04	arnorhs	I didn't know what it was
09:04	mrBliss	I enjoyed these videos by Rich Hickey: http://clojure.blip.tv/posts?view=archive
09:05	mrBliss	Start with the "Clojure for {Lisp,Java} Programmers" depending on your background
09:05	arnorhs	hey, awesome
09:05	arnorhs	great
09:05	arnorhs	thanks
09:14	notsonerdysunny	Hello everybody.. I want to configure my leiningen to download http://download.java.net/maven/2/net/java/jogl/jogl/1.1.1-rc6/ .. how can I add it to the list of repositories?
09:28	arnorhs	Are you guys using jetty?
09:28	arnorhs	is there a lot of difference between jetty 6 and 6 ?
09:28	arnorhs	is there a lot of difference between jetty 6 and 7 ?
09:29	notsonerdysunny	How can I add the repository above ?
09:29	notsonerdysunny	to leiningen
09:39	emh	I know you can implement protocols on interfaces (for other protocols), but this is not good if you're not dealing with Java compatibility, because interfaces is a host implementation detail, right?
09:40	emh	and say I have a protocol for printing something, and I implement it on at Set and a Graph interface, then what happens if a type implements both Set and Graph?
09:42	emh	best way is to always implement protocols in the concrete types, and use default mixins for things that are implemented using other protocols that the concrete type implements? just checking that my understanding is correct
09:57	raek	notsonerdysunny: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj see key :repositories
09:59	raek	you probably want to add the repo root directory or something (maybe http://download.java.net/maven/2/ ), but I don't know the details
09:59	notsonerdysunny	thanks raek
10:01	arnorhs	I can't even get this jetty thing working
10:01	arnorhs	I think my java inabilities are holding me back
10:01	arnorhs	mayb clojure is just fun for java developers
10:02	arnorhs	it seems most of the documentations and everything is made for people moving out of java
10:02	mrBliss	did you follow this: http://weavejester.github.com/compojure/docs/getting-started.html ?
10:03	mrBliss	no need to install jetty
10:03	arnorhs	hmmm
10:03	arnorhs	ahh
10:03	mrBliss	it's not like apache and php
10:03	mrBliss	jetty is a server, but it's just a java process
10:04	arnorhs	ahh ok
10:04	arnorhs	so the clojure process itself becomes the webserer
10:05	arnorhs	then everything that the webserver has to be able to, must be implemented by the library or your own code?
10:05	mrBliss	java
10:05	mrBliss	right
10:05	mrBliss	imo a cleaner approach than apache+php
10:06	arnorhs	The best thing about apache is that it handles all the hard stuff about running a webserver
10:06	arnorhs	all the threading
10:06	arnorhs	and development becomes so easy when it's all request based
10:06	arnorhs	I do realize that this will not work the same way
10:06	mrBliss	compojure does this for you
10:06	arnorhs	it will be interesting
10:06	mrBliss	you write the routes and the request handlers
10:14	arnorhs	ok, there is a reference to jetty in the project configuration example that the compojure doc has
10:14	arnorhs	does that mean jetty has to be installed? because I uninstalled it ? :P
10:15	raek	no, leiningen will pull down the needed jars
10:15	raek	since compojure has it as a dependency
10:15	arnorhs	wow, there's some magic happening
10:16	mrBliss	in your project dependencies, you'll probably have ring-jetty-adapter
10:16	mrBliss	these are the dependencies or ring-jetty-adapater: http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-jetty-adapter/project.clj
10:16	raek	hrm, yes. maybe that is not a dependency of compojure anymore....
10:16	raek	I use moustache for the routing instead of compojure nowadays
10:17	raek	anyway, Ring does most of the stuff anyway
10:21	arnorhs	hmm
10:22	arnorhs	I executed: lein repl src/arnorhs/core.clj and I got this error:
10:23	arnorhs	arnorhs@ubuntu:/opt/clojure/projects/arnorhs$ lein repl src/arnorhs/core.clj Wrong number of arguments to repl task.
10:23	arnorhs	and Expected ([project])
10:24	mrBliss	are you in lein project folder (containing a project.clj)?
10:25	arnorhs	yes
10:26	arnorhs	wait sorry
10:27	arnorhs	I copy pasted the example code but it has a reference to the project name
10:27	raek	arnorhs: you don't specif the file name as an argument
10:28	raek	-ify
10:28	raek	lein repl
10:28	arnorhs	oh
10:28	raek	and then (require 'arnorhs.core)
10:28	raek	and maybe (in-ns 'arnorhs.core)
10:29	arnorhs	you're right
10:29	arnorhs	working
10:29	raek	I've heard about a new "lein run" command that can be used to run a file as a scriåt
10:29	raek	*script
10:29	arnorhs	the compojure guide showed it like that: http://weavejester.github.com/compojure/docs/getting-started.html
10:29	arnorhs	somebody needs to edit that guide
10:30	raek	hrm, maybe a new feature in leiningen
10:30	arnorhs	no wait
10:32	arnorhs	awesome
10:32	arnorhs	Hello World Wide Web!
10:32	arnorhs	thanks a lot raek
10:32	arnorhs	when I make source code modifications, do I always have to type in those two commands?
10:33	arnorhs	lein repl and then (require 'arnorhs.core)
10:33	mrBliss	which editor are you using?
10:33	arnorhs	currently just gedit
10:34	arnorhs	I can also use emacs
10:34	mrBliss	that would be perfect!
10:34	raek	arnorhs: no, just paste the updated code into the repl
10:34	raek	you don't need to restart the server
10:34	mrBliss	install clojure-mode, slime and slime-repl
10:35	mrBliss	(via ELPA)
10:35	raek	if you use emacs with slime, just use C-x C-e to send the current form to evaluation
10:36	mrBliss	Or C-c C-k to compile the whole buffer
10:36	raek	or C-M-x to evaluate the top level form containing the point (usually a def)
10:37	raek	you can do a (require 'arnorhs.core :reload) in the repl to reload the whole file
10:37	raek	but then surround the server call in something
10:38	raek	(defonce server (run-jetty example {:port 8080, :join? false}))
10:38	raek	no wait, this is better (defonce server (run-jetty #'example {:port 8080, :join? false}))
10:42	raek	(since if you would redfine example, the server would use the new one automatically)
11:10	arnorhs	my god, a lot of things to learn/install just to start programming :)
11:10	arnorhs	I followed the guide here: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs
11:10	arnorhs	and thereby configured lein repl to be the inferior lisp or whatever
11:11	arnorhs	and I got the clojure.core> prompt inside emacs
11:11	arnorhs	and could run my little application
11:11	arnorhs	so far so good
11:11	raek	I usually do "lein swank"
11:11	raek	and then connect to it with "M-x slime-connect"
11:12	arnorhs	what does that do?
11:12	raek	works out of the box, no config required
11:12	raek	lein swank starts a repl server that slime can use
11:12	arnorhs	this ? http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
11:12	raek	ah, yes
11:12	arnorhs	goddamnit, so many things to learn
11:13	arnorhs	need to go help my brother move
11:13	arnorhs	brb
11:13	raek	the way you did it is build-tool independent
11:14	raek	but when you do multiple projects which may have dependencies, you will most likely want to use some build tool (like leiningen)
11:14	Bahman	Hi all!
11:14	raek	arnorhs: my repertoire for setting up everything:
11:15	raek	1) get emacs and install clojure-mode, slime and slime-repl through elpa
11:15	raek	2) get leiningen
11:16	raek	3) create a leiningen project and add :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.2.1]]
11:16	raek	4) run lein deps and lein swank
11:16	raek	5) start emacs and connect with M-x slime-connect
11:16	raek	done!
11:17	raek	(this installs clojure and contrib too, as they are added as dependencies)
11:17	raek	(dependencies are added to the project.clj file)
11:18	raek	(a leiningen project skeleton can be created with lein new)
11:21	raek	this is of course opinionated towards emacs+leiningen
11:23	raek	you can use pretty much any combo of {Netbeans, Eclipse, Idea, Emacs, Vim, Textmate} x {Leiningen, Maven, Gradle, Cake, Cljr}
11:24	qbg	Hmm. I found a typo in The Joy of Clojure
11:26	qbg	Table of contents -> Part 1 -> 2: "Firehos" should probably be "Firehose"
11:27	bobo_	qbg: they would probably be happy if you added it: http://manning-sandbox.com/forum.jspa?forumID=624 there
11:34	rosejn	anyone have advice for tracking down a java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError?
11:34	rosejn	Trying to move to 1.2, and it's coming up in code that previously loaded fine.
11:36	chouser	rosejn: can you get a stack trace?
11:37	rosejn	yeah I can, but it doesn't say much
11:37	rosejn	1 sec and I'll get it
11:39	rosejn	https://gist.github.com/60138f739bc0b7ebec47
11:39	rosejn	That's the stack trace
11:43	raek	what's at line 2 of ugen.clj?
11:44	rosejn	http://github.com/overtone/overtone/blob/clj1.2/src/overtone/core/ugen.clj
11:44	rosejn	A doc string
11:45	raek	strange
11:45	raek	you're not using incompatible versions of, say, clojure and contrib or something?
11:45	raek	or aot-compiled libs?
11:46	raek	or openjdk?
11:46	rosejn	I'll check
11:46	rosejn	don't think so
11:50	rosejn	huh... I removed the classes directory and the error went away
11:50	rosejn	not entirely comfortable that this should happen though
11:54	raek	it seems like you have done a "lein compile" at some point
11:56	rosejn	Does that happen automatically when you "lein jar"?
11:57	rosejn	So the compiler doesn't recognize if code has changed it needs to reload from source?
11:58	raek	in what situation?
11:59	raek	I'm not certain if lein jar runs lein compile
11:59	raek	I have not used that function much
11:59	raek	anyway, classes/ is added to the classpath
12:00	Raynes	I don't think lein jar will compile anything unless you ask it to in your project.clj
12:00	Raynes	If it does, I've certainly never noticed it.
12:00	Raynes	But if you have old compiled files in classes/ for whatever reason, you can definitely expect weirdness.
12:00	raek	since you might have, for example, java code that needs to be compiled and available on the classpath for the repl
12:01	rosejn	ok, so basically you have to delete classes all the time before re-running code?
12:02	rosejn	as in the "classes" directory
12:03	raek	after you have AOT-compiled source, yes
12:03	raek	which you mostly only do when you release a package
12:03	raek	the internal clojure compiler does not output class files to the classes/ dir
12:05	raek	for example, (fn [] "foo) is compiled and generates a class under the hood, but it isn't stored in any file
12:07	Raynes	Most of the time, you don't have to AOT compile code. The only time you really have to do that is for serious Java interop purposes (a la gen-class).
12:08	chouser	rosejn: (sorry, stepped out) That stack trace is incomplete.
12:08	chouser	(e) only returns the root cause, which is almost always insufficient for compile-time errors
12:09	Raynes	._.
12:09	Raynes	I guess we frightened him.
12:09	raek	btw, will (.printStackTrace *e) print the full stack trace?
12:09	chouser	raek: yes
12:09	opqdonut	not the causes though?
12:27	leafw	anybody knows if kotka's memoize functions made it into clojure libs? Or contrib?
14:08	chouser	opqdonut: the full stack trace and the full chain of causes. (.printStackTrace *e) prints everything
14:09	opqdonut	ok
14:09	opqdonut	was the behaviour different earlier or am I misremembering
14:16	arohner	opqdonut: clojure.stacktrace/print-stack-trace doesn't print causes
14:16	opqdonut	ah
14:16	arohner	but c.stacktrace/print-cause-trace does
14:17	arohner	(stupid, IMO)
14:17	opqdonut	yes
14:17	opqdonut	that was it
14:17	opqdonut	IMO too
15:05	arnorhs	slima
15:05	arnorhs	slime
15:09	arnorhs	how do I stop "lein repl" inside my emacs?
15:09	arnorhs	killall in command prompt? :P
15:09	LauJensen	Anybody here had problems with uberjars not being able to run, because they are not able to establish the root binding of warn-on-reflection ?
15:10	arnorhs	is there a command i can execute?
15:10	LauJensen	arnorhs: ,q
15:10	LauJensen	oh sorry, you wanted to kill the lein repl
15:10	LauJensen	(System/exit) ?
15:10	arnorhs	yes
15:10	arnorhs	and some command to execute?
15:12	raek	arnorhs: I suppose you could kill the inferior lisp buffer
15:12	LauJensen	arnorhs: if you hit "(System/exit 1)" in the repl, doesn't the jvm die?
15:12	raek	lein repl starts a clojure process outside emacs, so what did you mean?
15:12	arnorhs	ahh I see
15:13	raek	I recommend using slime + swank
15:13	raek	then you can basically control everything from emacs
15:13	arnorhs	I don't know why I'd only want to control 50% from emacs
15:14	arnorhs	either everything or just run from command prompt
15:14	arnorhs	this is just confusing as hell
15:14	arnorhs	I'll just uninstall everything, use the syntax highlight and run clojure from the command prompt
15:15	fbru02	I want to code a simple function to emulate a python generator, what's a good way to incremente a local on each call of the generator ?
15:15	ssideris	arnorhs: you'll be missing the interactivity like that
15:15	arnorhs	ssideris: I'll have to start somewhere
15:15	LauJensen	fbru02: iterate?
15:15	ssideris	arnorhs: yeah ok start like that if the setup is too much for you right now, but keep in mind that there is more
15:15	fbru02	LauJensen: yes basicaly
15:16	raek	I find it useful to be able to edit one definition and only reevaluate that one when I'm done with it
15:16	ssideris	arnorhs: for example, if you setup swank+slime, you'll be able to re-write a function and replace it in your program without restarting your program at all
15:16	arnorhs	And so far.. with java, jetty (which I didn't have to worry about), emacs package editor, lisp syntax highlighting, installing clojure, installing leiningen, compojure...
15:16	ssideris	arnorhs: replace it as in "hot" replace
15:17	arnorhs	it's just a large chunk of stuff to eat and understand in a single afternoon
15:17	somnium	fbru02: the idiomatic way is to use a lazy sequence (like from iterate), but its possible to use atoms and closures to be purposefully mutable
15:17	ssideris	arnorhs: agreed :-)
15:17	arnorhs	I just want a simple hello world at this point
15:17	arnorhs	:P
15:17	fbru02	somnium: cool, i was just openning the page on that in clojure.net thanks
15:17	arnorhs	So, emacs+code highlighting, and lein is fine for me
15:17	raek	a repl in a terminal can be a good start :)
15:18	arnorhs	yes, I'll ask you guys about the emacs magic after a week
15:18	raek	but when writing longer pieces of code, the interactivity becomes very neat to have
15:18	arnorhs	I'm also using desktop linux for the first time in 8 years :)
15:19	arnorhs	ok, when that becomes an issue/problem, then I'll appreciate it
15:20	arnorhs	Thanks for all the help raek and everybody
15:20	arnorhs	It's been super helpful
15:20	raek	arnorhs: how far did you get? did you ever use slime-connect?
15:20	arnorhs	no, not slime
15:20	raek	how did you run things in emacs?
15:21	arnorhs	I was about to install it, I saw the lisp script needed to install on http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation
15:21	arnorhs	the inferior lisp program, I don't know the location? would that be "lein repl" or?
15:22	raek	the easiest way, I think, is to use ELPA to get clojure-mode, slime and slime-repl
15:22	raek	it's very automatic
15:22	ssideris	arnorhs: i think the stable way to do it is to run "lein swank" from a console and then run "slime-connect" from emacs
15:22	LauJensen	raek: Last time I tried it failed
15:22	arnorhs	can you use elpa also to get slime and slime-repl?
15:22	LauJensen	arnorhs: yea
15:22	ssideris	raek: i never got as far
15:22	arnorhs	what was swank again and why do I need it?
15:23	raek	"swank" is the server that the "slime" client connects to
15:23	Bootvis	how can you use (read-line) in a repl?
15:23	raek	or "swank-clojure", more accurately
15:23	ssideris	yeah "swank" can refer to any such server (for other lisps etc)
15:23	raek	basically, you start a swank server outsite emacs with, for example, lein swank
15:24	raek	and then connect to that with emacs (using M-x slime-connect)
15:24	arnorhs	I'm sorry but I'm reading your text but the information is just not parsing
15:25	arnorhs	I might be too dumb for clojure in general
15:25	arnorhs	what does slime do again?
15:25	raek	talk to swank
15:25	ssideris	slime is the emacs extension for developing lisp
15:26	arnorhs	I thought that was the clojure-mode I installed
15:26	raek	clojure mode is syntax highlighting and indentation
15:26	raek	it does not give you a repl in emacs
15:26	arnorhs	ok
15:26	raek	that is what slime does
15:27	raek	you could think of swank as a "repl server" and slime as a "repl client"
15:27	arnorhs	Ok and if slime does that, why do I need swank?
15:27	raek	but it can do more that just the repl...
15:27	arnorhs	ahhh
15:28	raek	like a web browser (client) and a web server
15:28	ssideris	swank is like an instance of clojure sitting around waiting to be send commands from slime
15:28	arnorhs	hmm.. so swank is the thing that's controlling the clojure process (somehow through lein) and slime is the client that connects to that process to insdert the new updated code into it
15:28	ssideris	yes!
15:28	arnorhs	so when I make modifications etc, I use slime to inject it into swank, the controller of the server
15:29	raek	lein is a tool for, amon other things, starting clojure processes with the right CLASSPATH stuff
15:29	arnorhs	because java is too uncomfortable to work with out of the box?
15:29	raek	swank-clojure is actually an ordinary clojure library
15:30	arnorhs	and it also generates the project files and handles dependencies etc of java/clojure libraries
15:30	raek	yes
15:30	rmarianski	i'm trying to create a simple implementation of something seqable, but i'm running into some issues
15:30	rmarianski	http://pastie.org/1122898
15:30	rmarianski	(first (FooSeq. 7))
15:30	rmarianski	seems to work
15:30	rmarianski	so does (first (next (next (FooSeq. 8)))
15:31	rmarianski	but, i can't use the other seq functions with it
15:31	rmarianski	like take
15:31	raek	when I set up emacs and stuff last time I did it like this:
15:31	rmarianski	(take 3 (FooSeq. 8))
15:31	rmarianski	> ([:x 8])
15:31	rmarianski	anyone have any ideas?
15:32	arnorhs	raek: you should make an online guide for setting everything up that you need for proper clojure web development
15:33	ssideris	rmarianski: i think that defrecord is more for map-based types, maybe deftype is more appropriate for your case
15:33	rmarianski	ssideris: when i try that, i get an error message:
15:33	rmarianski	No message. [Thrown class java.lang.AbstractMethodError]
15:33	raek	1) installed emacs 2) installed elpa by pasting the code at http://tromey.com/elpa/install.html in the scratch buffer and evaluated with C-x C-e 3) install clojure-mode, slime and slime-repl from the M-x package-list-packages menu
15:34	raek	arnorhs: I should probably do that...
15:34	rmarianski	maybe it's because it doesn't know how to print out the type?
15:34	rmarianski	(the repl that is)
15:35	rmarianski	i get the same error when i try to explicitly print an instance of the type
15:35	arnorhs	ah ok, you can use the package manager to set all that up.. interesting
15:35	arnorhs	what about swank?
15:35	arnorhs	you need to install that outside of emacs, right?
15:35	ssideris	arnorhs: lein takes care of that, you just list it the dev-dependencies
15:36	rmarianski	adding a toString to it doesn't seem to be help, so maybe it's something else
15:36	arnorhs	ahh, right
15:36	raek	exactly, you dont have to install it
15:36	raek	it is a dependecy, just like clojure and contrib
15:37	raek	lein deps will fetch the versions specified
15:37	ssideris	rmarianski: not sure, haven't worked much with records and types yet
15:37	arnorhs	so just add :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.2.1"]] to all your projects
15:37	rmarianski	ssideris: ok, thanks ... i appreciate it
15:38	raek	arnorhs: I usually start with something like this: http://gist.github.com/555485
15:39	rmarianski	ssideris: would you happen to know where in the clojure codebase the java collections are made seqable?
15:40	rmarianski	i figure that might give me some clues
15:40	ssideris	rmarianski: they are a different implementation
15:40	arnorhs	raek: except I also have compojure
15:40	ssideris	they are not java collections at all
15:40	arnorhs	+ jetty
15:40	rmarianski	ssideris: right, but i can seq a java.util.ArrayList for example
15:40	rmarianski	that's very similar to what i'm trying to do
15:41	raek	just wanted to provide the minimal getting started with emacs project file...
15:41	ssideris	rmarianski: sorry, I'm new around here too :-)
15:41	raek	after doing "lein deps" you should be able to start a swank server with "lein swank" (by default on localhost and port 4005)
15:42	ssideris	raek: as far as I can tell, there have been attempts to be able to manage clojure-swank from within emacs, but that's still buggy, right?
15:43	raek	you mean clojure-mode.el=
15:43	raek	?
15:43	raek	"Previous versions of Swank Clojure bundled an Elisp library called swank-clojure.el that provided ways to launch your swank server from within your Emacs process. While swank-clojure is still distributed with the project, it's a much more error-prone way of doing things than the method outlined above.
15:43	raek	If you have configured your Emacs to use M-x swank-clojure-project then it should still work, but it's not recommended for new users."
15:43	raek	from the swank-clojure docs
15:43	ssideris	by the way, is there a way to re-use destructuring statements?
15:44	ssideris	raek: yeah, that's what i mean
15:44	raek	I think it was very hard to maintain
15:44	arnorhs	yeah, I saw that swank-clojure is listed from the packages list in emacs
15:44	arnorhs	so I should just ignore that
15:44	raek	yes
15:45	raek	don't start slime with just "M-x slime". that is what's in swank-clojure.el (which is very outdated)
15:46	raek	M-x slime-connect seems to be the way to go, nowadays
15:46	ssideris	i should automate all the questions that slime-connect asks me every time
15:48	arnorhs	nice :D
15:49	raek	I've been thinking about writing this for a long time
15:49	arnorhs	I'll upvote that on every single site that has a vote button
15:49	ssideris	haha
15:49	gfrlog	what should I use if I like atoms but not retries?
15:49	ssideris	raek: a lot of people that haven't ever seen a lisp will not know what a repl is and they certainly wont know about slime
15:50	arnorhs	I got a 3 page error list when installing slime and slime-repl from the package list :)
15:50	raek	:(
15:50	somnium	I thought even java has a repl these days
15:50	somnium	beanshell or something?
15:50	somnium	cant imagine its very pleasant to use
15:51	raek	arnorhs: warnings or errors?
15:51	raek	http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure section "Connecting with SLIME" is what I have read
15:52	raek	arnorhs: do you have other versions of slime lying around?
15:52	arnorhs	well, hmm, I did download it with cvs
15:53	raek	does emacs know about it? :)
15:53	gfrlog	I'm going to guess agents with promises
15:53	arnorhs	it shouldn't
15:53	arnorhs	I didn't start installing
15:55	raek	maybe you could try with the package.el linked from the swank-clojure docs
15:56	arnorhs	I'm trying to remove it from the packages menu
15:56	arnorhs	there doesn't seem to be a remove command documented anywhere
15:57	arnorhs	why is there a sudoku game available as an emacs package?
15:57	ssideris	arnorhs: emacs is HUGE
15:57	technomancy	raek: have you thought about adding your info to the assembla wiki page instead?
15:57	ssideris	arnorhs: there are e-mail plugins, twitter clients, tetris etc for emacs
15:58	Raynes	technomancy: Rather than add to the 6 thousand old "Get started with Emacs, SLIME, and Clojure" blog posts!?!? No way man. ;)
15:58	raek	technomancy: yes
15:58	technomancy	ssideris: Emacs is a lot of things: http://p.hagelb.org/emacs-is.html
15:59	raek	it would not follow the current structure of the getting started wiki, but maybe that's a good thing
15:59	arnorhs	are there any get started with emacs, slime and clojure blog posts?
15:59	technomancy	arnorhs: tons and tons!
15:59	Raynes	The problem is that most of them are outdated.
15:59	technomancy	less than half of them have correct, useful info
15:59	arnorhs	orly
16:00	technomancy	"The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."
16:00	arnorhs	like this one (top of google for get started with emacs slime and clojure):
16:00	arnorhs	http://nklein.com/2010/05/getting-started-with-clojureemacsslime/
16:00	ssideris	technomancy: it doesn't mention "Get things done" app
16:00	arnorhs	it ends with the sentence "What didn’t work .. i tried tried tried ... Edit: Ah, it appears that the Subversion repository for Clojure that I found is deprecated. But, I don’t have the energy to try the git repository myself at this point. Maybe next week."
16:01	arnorhs	so it doesn't look like the kind of guide you'd want to read
16:01	raek	whoa
16:01	Raynes	wut
16:02	Raynes	And that post is recent!
16:02	technomancy	par for the course. =\
16:02	arnorhs	yes
16:02	arnorhs	but this one is alright http://lifeofaprogrammergeek.blogspot.com/2009/03/learning-clojure-and-emacs.html
16:02	arnorhs	but it doesn't explain anything
16:03	arnorhs	it doesn't mention swank
16:03	arnorhs	or lein or anything
16:03	technomancy	really the only thing to be done is try to increase the ranking of the assembla wiki and official docs
16:03	arnorhs	but this guy also wrote this: http://riddell.us/ClojureWithEmacsSlimeSwankOnUbuntu.html
16:03	arnorhs	no, he linked to that
16:03	arnorhs	what is assembla?
16:03	arnorhs	I've seen that wiki and read some stuff
16:04	technomancy	Clojure uses assembla as its official wiki and issue tracker
16:04	technomancy	clojurebot: assembla?
16:04	clojurebot	assembla is http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure
16:04	technomancy	~botsnack
16:04	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
16:04	Raynes	$botsnack
16:04	sexpbot	Raynes: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
16:04	Raynes	I totally didn't steal that.
16:05	technomancy	clojurebot stole it from fsbot
16:05	fliebel	good evening
16:05	Raynes	sexpbot comes from a long line of thiefbots.
16:09	raek	test
16:09	fliebel	raek: test coming through ;)
16:10	arnorhs	The errors I get when just trying to install slime: http://pastebin.com/hKRWee87
16:11	raek	technomancy: what do you think should be mentioned (at minimum) in a getting started with emacs tutorial?
16:12	raek	or, make that emacs and swank-clojure
16:12	arnorhs	those are actually just warnings
16:13	arnorhs	but here's the error I get when installing slime-repl: http://pastebin.com/y4JDdQc2
16:13	arnorhs	Seems like actual code errors
16:13	raek	I think it is important to have a getting started tutorial that covers the whole process, from emacs to the clojure jvm
16:14	arnorhs	yes, and one step at a time.. first just java+clojure+lein, then a seperate one for web development using compojure and then a third tutorial about installing slime, swank, slime repl, clojure highlighting etc.. , maybe?
16:15	ssideris	slime+swank etc is of general use
16:15	ssideris	ti applies to non-web work
16:15	technomancy	raek: you could mention that Emacs 24 will come with an up-to-date package.el
16:15	ssideris	it
16:15	technomancy	raek: I really need to fix up my own personal package archive though
16:16	arnorhs	who manages the slime packages in emacs?
16:16	arnorhs	do you think there's somebody who'd like to know about the errors I'm getting?
16:16	technomancy	arnorhs: I'm the packager; upstream is really careless about releases.
16:16	arnorhs	ahh
16:17	arnorhs	who's upstream and where does he live?
16:17	raek	that says, this is a set of tools you may want to use. this perticular combination of tools is used as described here... etc
16:17	technomancy	arnorhs: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/
16:19	ihodes	does anyone have any news on Enlive? I'd like to use it, but i'm a little worried it's been put on hold, and i don't want to maintain it… though it might be fine for my uses now, i'll have to test.
16:20	raek	what is the issue about the old package.el, and how do I install the new one in a simple way?
16:20	arnorhs	I was wondering about these installation instructions, since emacs install of slime is not working: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation
16:20	technomancy	raek: the old one had some bugs preventing package insallation in some edge cases. it also doesn't support installing from multiple sources.
16:21	technomancy	raek: there are two versions that fix those problems: the one on my github, and the one in Emacs 24. they aren't really the same
16:21	technomancy	GNU adapted package.el for inclusion in Emacs 24 straight from tromey's buggy version
16:21	arnorhs	(setq inferior-lisp-program "/opt/sbcl/bin/sbcl") ; should this be just "lein repl" ?
16:21	technomancy	so I had to go back and replay my fixes on top of theirs
16:21	ihodes	technomancy: awesome. ugh.
16:22	technomancy	raek: I haven't tried the one bundled in 24 with 23, but it would be good to give that a spin and see if it works
16:22	technomancy	that would simplify things quite a bit; I wouldn't have to keep my github fork around
16:22	arnorhs	yes and you would make my life sweet :)
16:22	arnorhs	is 24 not out yet?
16:23	tomoj	slime cvs is still broken for clojure, right?
16:23	technomancy	arnorhs: still at least a year away probably
16:23	arnorhs	ok
16:23	technomancy	tomoj: I haven't heard reports either way
16:23	technomancy	maybe people just stopped using trunk; that would be nice. =)
16:24	raek	should one install elpa as usual and the replace the package.el file, or just put the package.el in .emacs.d/elpa/ and add a suitable line in .emacs?
16:24	arnorhs	so as things stand now, even though you guys say that using slime is the best way to develop... I can't install it because installaction from cvs isn't working and installaction from emacs packages are not working either?
16:24	technomancy	raek: the latter, I think
16:24	technomancy	note that package.el from 24 needs an extra line of config to make it work with the elpa archive
16:25	raek	I'll try that
16:25	technomancy	raek: also would be good to make a clear distinction between package.el (the software) and ELPA (the site providing packages)
16:25	technomancy	since now the FSF has their own package archive (which is basically useless since it only accepts libs with copyright assignment)
16:25	technomancy	I've been guilty of conflating the two in the past
16:25	arnorhs	hmm.. what is package.el?
16:26	arnorhs	the script that controls the packages?
16:26	arnorhs	.el == emacs lisp or something?
16:26	technomancy	right
16:27	arnorhs	would that be (eq ".el" "emacs lisp") ?
16:27	arnorhs	lol
16:27	raek	it's a packet manager for emacs extensions
16:28	raek	package-list-packages is a part of it
16:28	arnorhs	but for somebody starting out, this is a pretty horrible resource to start with: http://clojure.org/getting_started
16:28	raek	technomancy: it is great that you provide all this important information :)
16:28	arnorhs	yes it is
16:29	ihodes	http://data-sorcery.org/2009/12/20/getting-started/ this helped me get everything set up
16:29	arnorhs	what is incanter?
16:29	technomancy	arnorhs: that's pretty bad; it should be set up as a redirect to the assembla getting started page
16:29	technomancy	that one is much better.
16:30	arnorhs	yes
16:30	ihodes	arnorhs: don't worry about incanter: this is applicable to just getting started. it's a stats library
16:30	arnorhs	ihodes: that's a great article
16:30	arnorhs	it starts out with just the words I wanted to hear
16:32	LauJensen	technomancy: emacs is a GUI toolkit?
16:32	ssideris	arnorhs: yeah, but given that you have no previous java experience, it's unlikely that you'll know of any of the other tools :-)
16:33	arnorhs	ssideris: yes :)
16:33	arnorhs	I programmed java applets in the 90's
16:33	ihodes	arnorhs: i'm so sorry
16:33	ihodes	;)
16:33	arnorhs	lol
16:33	ssideris	haha
16:34	arnorhs	I made a drawing application that you could save to files and I hated java forever after that
16:35	arnorhs	it was awesome
16:35	LauJensen	I once did an application that rendered text in a webrowser, I haven't been able to look at PHP since that :(
16:35	ihodes	yeah i did a stats program in Java about 5 years ago. it was gross.
16:35	ihodes	had to interface with R. that was so painful.
16:36	ssideris	i write java for a living...
16:36	ssideris	swing in particular
16:36	arnorhs	R the language?
16:36	arnorhs	Java is probably pretty awesome today
16:36	ihodes	ssideris: i made 6.95 an hour for that…but i guess i can't call it a living.
16:36	ihodes	arnorhs: yes
16:36	ssideris	ihodes: and now?
16:37	ihodes	ssideris: got 12.50/hr for a summer working in Clojure. i was in high school then, so 7$ wasn't bad: didn't need to be making a living.
16:37	arnorhs	now he makes 695 an hour
16:37	ihodes	haha i wish. now i'm a poor college student.
16:40	ssideris	ihodes: so what were you working on? clojure itself? or writing something in clojure?
16:41	ihodes	ssideris: with clojure; it was/is a data analysis app for a neuroscience lab.
16:41	ssideris	was the language your choice?
16:41	ssideris	or were they using it already?
16:41	ihodes	definitely mine haha
16:42	ssideris	ah ok
16:42	ihodes	their only other full-time computer engineer/programmer was using VB. and labview.
16:42	ssideris	just wondering how widely used it is already
16:42	ssideris	VB! my favourite! (not)
16:42	ihodes	yeah. the program they were using crashed if you used it too quickly…
16:43	ssideris	yeah you don't want to surpise VB
16:43	ssideris	*surprise
16:43	ihodes	haha yeah
16:44	raek	hrm, would you say that swank-clojure starts a "swank server" or a "slime server", btw?
16:44	ihodes	swank
16:44	ihodes	swank = server, slime = client
16:44	raek	swank is the protocol, right?
16:44	arnorhs	process?
16:45	clojurebot	processing is a language/toolkit for visualizations. See the Clojure wrapper at http://github.com/rosado/clj-processing/
16:45	arnorhs	lol
16:45	ihodes	haha
16:45	arnorhs	clojure?
16:45	clojurebot	clojure is far closer to perfection then python
16:45	arnorhs	lol
16:45	arnorhs	python?
16:45	clojurebot	python is ugly
16:45	ssideris	hikey?
16:45	arnorhs	LOL
16:45	ihodes	it's a server–it's not like a protocol or anything (AFAIK)
16:45	ihodes	hickey?
16:45	ihodes	rish?
16:45	clojurebot	is_rhickey_is_a_minor_god? is yes
16:45	ihodes	rich?
16:45	ihodes	excellent
16:45	arnorhs	slime?
16:46	clojurebot	slime-installer is http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/0f28b61de90ce8a09d75bf1668ef3f1c200f9c52/clojure-mode.el#L560
16:46	technomancy	clojurebot: underscores? I am disappoint.
16:46	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:46	technomancy	clojurebot: forget slime-installer
16:46	clojurebot	slime-installer is http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/0f28b61de90ce8a09d75bf1668ef3f1c200f9c52/clojure-mode.el#L560
16:46	ihodes	emacs?
16:46	clojurebot	emacs is best configured for Clojure with instructions at http://technomancy.us/126
16:46	seangrove	Trying to get familiar with lazy sequences and what not - would it make sense for a lazy sequence that generates multiples of 20?
16:46	ihodes	haskell?
16:46	technomancy	clojurebot: slime-installer is deprecated
16:46	clojurebot	"you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu
16:46	clojurebot	c'est bon!
16:46	ihodes	haha so excellent
16:46	arnorhs	haskell?
16:46	clojurebot	"you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu
16:46	arnorhs	heh, sorry
16:47	arnorhs	ruby?
16:47	clojurebot	Chunky bacon!
16:47	tomoj	seangrove: that would make sense, yes
16:47	arnorhs	html?
16:47	arnorhs	php?
16:47	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
16:47	arnorhs	lisp?
16:47	clojurebot	"Like DNA, such a language [Lisp] does not go out of style." - Paul Graham, ANSI Common Lisp
16:48	ssideris	i saw a talk of Rich Hickey today were he apologised for teaching c++ in the past :-)
16:48	arnorhs	lol
16:48	arnorhs	ehhe
16:48	arnorhs	yes
16:49	ssideris	raek: maybe fire up graphviz and make a real graph?
16:49	ssideris	you know dot, right?
16:49	raek	I do in fact... it's nice
16:50	ssideris	i like the fact that it's almost zero effort
16:51	ska2342	Hi. Is anyone around who could help setting up compojure with maven?
16:53	ssideris	raek: are you doing this, or should I?
16:53	raek	I have done it on a piece of paper
16:53	arnorhs	maven is a lein alternative?
16:54	ssideris	arnorhs: maven is lein for the java world
16:54	arnorhs	ahh
16:54	ssideris	arnorhs: lein uses maven in the background
16:54	arnorhs	i see
16:54	ska2342	maybe I should have added "without making fun of it" :-)
16:55	arnorhs	lol
16:56	ska2342	anyway. As far as I understand things (and I am neither a Java nor a Maven guy) the 0.4.1 JAR of compojure doesn't include compojure.html anymore. When I try to :use compojure.html it can't be found and without that, I don't get the (html ...) functionality.
16:56	raek	leiningen uses maven for the whole dependency machinery
16:56	ordnungswidrig	ska2342: this has moved do hiccup
16:57	raek	ska2342: that has been split into a library called hiccup
16:57	ska2342	Ah, OK. I'll try that.
16:58	ssideris	great name
16:58	ska2342	would 0.3.0 suffice?
17:03	ssideris	raek: does this describe the situation accurately?
17:03	ssideris	http://i.imgur.com/A7E7W.png
17:05	ihodes	i prefer to skip the package.el part
17:05	ihodes	but thats' about right
17:07	raek	ssideris: yes! that was what I had in mind
17:08	ssideris	raek: ok, should I improve the formatting a bit and re-post it, or do you think it's unnecessary?
17:09	raek	I know how to make my own
17:10	technomancy	there should be some relationship (different from a dependency) between swank-clojure and slime
17:10	technomancy	since they talk over a socket
17:11	ssideris	ok, I'm firing up inkscape
17:13	ihodes	ssideris: it'd definitely be useful. how might i contact you if i'd like ot use it in a blog post, if i may?
17:14	ssideris	ihodes: wait a few minutes for the better version and feel free to use it whenever you like...
17:14	ihodes	technomany: you suggested a java/clojure IO kind of post; i'm having trouble deciding what to cover. definitely stuff like slurp, spit and line-seq, and things like with-open and file etc. but what about things like read and PuchBackReader, BufferedRead
17:14	ihodes	technomancy: see above
17:15	raek	ssideris: I think I will go with your version too
17:15	ssideris	ok... preparing shinier version, please wait
17:15	technomancy	ihodes: the basic java.io classes would be a good start, maybe followed by "best of" clojure.java.io?
17:16	technomancy	PushBackReader is worth a mention too just because it's quirky and you won't be able to find much about it in the general Java literature.
17:16	ihodes	that's what i was thinking: i'd mention it along with 'read' in particular
17:17	ihodes	since read's a fun deal. kind of a big deal/
17:17	raek	no hurry :)
17:18	ihodes	i'm trying to decide if i should split it up into 2 posts. but there's no great way of modularizing the content… and i'd prefer to publpish it all at once
17:20	ihodes	but i have the best first line for the post, ever: It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a programmer using Clojure will want to perform IO.
17:20	technomancy	nice!
17:20	ihodes	haha gotta shove some english lit in there, right?
17:21	technomancy	that's always been my approach
17:21	LauJensen	technomancy: when you got a sec, check your query window
17:22	raek	preliminary outline: http://gist.github.com/555595
17:23	ihodes	nice. and html5, to boot ;)
17:25	raek	it follows the structure of the graph ssideris made
17:25	ihodes	technomancy: per the mailing list, seems 1.3.1 would be good to go for windows as well
17:26	darrenaustin	Hi folks, quick question: does 'lein repl' work correctly with 1.2?
17:27	ihodes	darrenaustin: it should
17:27	darrenaustin	I am running lein 1.3 and when I start the repl, it drops me in clojure.core and none of my project appears to be on the classpath.
17:27	ihodes	are you sure you're starting lein from your project's directory?
17:28	ihodes	and that your project.clj has 1.2 specified for its version of clojure
17:28	darrenaustin	yes to both.
17:28	technomancy	ihodes: I saw a crazy bug on someone else's machine where the standalone install task put the shell wrapper in the wrong place and didn't even bother to get the deps
17:28	ihodes	and you're sure that you're running 1.3? are you on windows or a nix?
17:28	technomancy	but I can't repro here
17:29	darrenaustin	I am on Mac OS X
17:29	ihodes	technomancy: could that happen if they have some funky env variables set up?
17:29	technomancy	maybe
17:30	ihodes	darrenaustin: could you put in a gist or pastebin what you see after you start lein repl?
17:30	darrenaustin	if I wanted to try to reinstall lein, what do I need to delete other than the lein script itself?
17:32	ssideris	raek, ihodes: http://i.imgur.com/Z7ICw.png
17:32	ssideris	also available in SVG if you prefer
17:32	ihodes	ssideris: freakin' awesome
17:32	ssideris	:-D
17:33	darrenaustin	sure thing, but there are no errors. It just starts with "REPL started; serverl listening on localhost:12610." and then dumps me into the repl in the clojure.core namespace.
17:33	ihodes	except who uses emacs without -nw? haha ;)
17:33	raek	awesome!
17:33	ihodes	darrenaustin: so instead of user=> you get clpojure.core=>
17:33	ssideris	glad you like it, feel free to use it
17:33	darrenaustin	lhodes: yeah.
17:34	raek	ssideris: found a typo... "swank-mode"
17:34	ihodes	ssideris: thanks so much. raek: good catch! should be swank-clojure
17:34	ssideris	oops
17:34	darrenaustin	and when I try to use a library from the project, it complains that it can't find the classes.
17:34	ssideris	ok let me update it
17:34	darrenaustin	Both of which work fine from swank.
17:36	darrenaustin	I'll try reinstalling lein and see if that clears it up. Thanks for the help.
17:36	ssideris	raek, ihodes: http://i.imgur.com/ll4L2.png
17:36	ihodes	darrenaustin: please let me know–i'd like to fix this if it's a recurring issue. that's so bizarre
17:37	ihodes	ssideris - i hate to ask you change it again... but maybeee instead of package.el, it should be ELPA
17:37	seangrove	Hey all, I have this: (def multiples-of-20 (iterate (fn [x] (+ x 20)) 20))
17:37	ihodes	for Emacs Lisp Package Archive, which is what package.el runs
17:37	raek	as I learned today: ELPA is the central repository
17:38	tomoj	seangrove: you'll probably want to turn that into a defn instead of a def
17:38	raek	not the project written in emacs lisp
17:38	ihodes	seangrove: you could do (iterate (partial + 20) 20) instead
17:38	tomoj	for example (defn multiples-of-20 [] ...)
17:38	ssideris	ihodes: ok ok
17:38	ihodes	ssideris haha sorry for the trouble–it really looks awesome
17:39	tomoj	as a def, multiples-of-20 will always point to the beginning of the seq, and so the beginning won't be garbage collected
17:39	seangrove	interesting
17:39	tomoj	so if you tried to do (nth multiples-of-20 100000) or something, all 100000 elements would end up in memory at once
17:39	tomoj	as a function, (nth (multiples-of-20) 100000) works fine, because multiples-of-20 there refers to the function and you're not hanging on to the beginning of the seq
17:40	tomoj	(called "holding the head" around here)
17:40	raek	22:23 < technomancy> raek: also would be good to make a clear distinction between package.el (the software) and ELPA (the site providing packages)
17:40	seangrove	Very cool!
17:40	raek	22:23 < technomancy> since now the FSF has their own package archive (which is basically useless since it only accepts libs with copyright assignment)
17:40	raek	22:24 < technomancy> I've been guilty of conflating the two in the past
17:40	raek	for me, the nodes in the graphs represent softwares, so would like it to remain "package.el"
17:40	seangrove	Thank you!
17:41	ihodes	raek: good call, didn't even think of it
17:42	ssideris	ok so what's the verdict?
17:42	ihodes	keep package.el :) you got it perfect
17:42	ihodes	don't listen to me
17:42	ssideris	ok
17:42	ihodes	haha sorry about that
17:43	ssideris	ok, final version: http://i.imgur.com/9ZUMG.png
17:43	ssideris	(i hope!)
17:44	tomoj	what do the edges represent?
17:44	ssideris	tomoj: depends on
17:44	ssideris	apart from the one btween swank-clojure and SLIME
17:44	ihodes	ssideris: it looks awesome :)
17:44	ssideris	:-)
17:45	ssideris	the one between swank-clojure and SLIME represents "these two things are connected with the power of thunder"
17:45	ssideris	or something
17:45	Raynes	Sexy.
17:52	emh	what's a good way to set warn on reflection in a lib so that it works when I run the file for testing and when it is used/required by another file without throwing IllegalStateException?
17:52	emh	just catch the exception?
17:53	emh	I mean, it doesn't have to take effect when loaded from another file
18:09	LauJensen	Good night all - Here's a tip on how to unify development and production mode, so you dont have to switch around all the time: http://i.imgur.com/QbQVB.png
18:12	ssideris	haha
18:17	gfrlog	how do I check if a promise has been delivered
18:17	gfrlog	?
18:19	danlarkin	what function has the prototype (f '[a b c d] '[1 2 3]) => '[[a 1] [b 2] [c 3] [d nil]]?
18:21	opqdonut	, (map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6 7])
18:21	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
18:21	opqdonut	almost :)
18:22	ssideris	it reminded me of zipmap
18:25	danlarkin	partition-all can do the second half, but interleave won't pair pas the end of the shorter seq
18:26	opqdonut	maybe make a version of map that follows the longest sequence and not the shortest?
18:28	Raynes	gfrlog: http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg27029.html
18:28	tomoj	if you knew which arg was the longest you could lazy-cat the rest with (repeat nil), but that seems Wrong
18:28	opqdonut	it sure does
18:30	tomoj	copying map and just changing 3 things seems Wrong too :(
18:30	ssideris	it's very Perl-ish
18:31	opqdonut	how come?
18:31	ssideris	in perl you can say: my ($a, $b, $c) = (1, 2);
18:31	ssideris	and $c will be undefined
18:32	ssideris	i mean what you're trying to do reminds me of perl somehow
18:32	ssideris	not the solution
18:34	gfrlog	Raynes: thanks
18:46	danlarkin	here's what I've come up with, http://gist.github.com/555658
18:46	danlarkin	change interleave to not stop at the length of the shorter seq
21:22	emh	the elegant simplicity of functional programming is ever growing on me :) . I just realized that instead of creating macros to compose protocols to create a more complex abstraction, I should just define predicate functions to check whether an object satisfies a set of protocols. OOP had me all screwed up, thinking in terms of hierarchies
21:23	ssideris	but how do you compose protocols then?
21:24	emh	I don't. it's not necessary
21:24	emh	that's what I realized
21:25	ssideris	ah ok (don't know enough about protocols yet)
21:26	ssideris	so you were creating a meta-macro of sorts?
21:26	emh	not to be confused with composing _default implementations_, or mixins, of protocols, which can be done with something like the methods a la carte library
21:26	emh	ssideris: no, I was thinking I was going to have to
21:26	ssideris	sorry I meant meta-protocol
21:26	ssideris	or super-protocol
21:27	emh	yeah, the idea was to have a protocol that had all the methods of several other protocols, and to paste it together using some macro trickery
21:27	emh	but it's all backwards doing it that way
22:29	n2n3	,()
22:29	clojurebot	()
22:44	arnorhs	ihodes: http://twitter.com/ihodes/status/22403264493
22:44	ihodes	arnorhs: gotcha :) what are you hacking on now?
22:49	arnorhs	ihodes: not much. My first clojure project will be a half-baked comet implementation
22:50	arnorhs	I've been working on this simple (yet another) task list manager
22:50	arnorhs	which I only created to play around with html5 technologies
22:50	arnorhs	http://fridgelistapp.com/
22:51	arnorhs	I've got a big revision change coming up with almost a complete rewrite
22:51	arnorhs	and I'm doing real-time editing/updates of sharet tasklists through a lot of small ajax requests
22:52	arnorhs	so if you and I are editing the same tasklist in real time, you send an ajax request to edit and I have to pull it on a regular basis
22:52	arnorhs	I wanted to create a push mechanism by using "comet" (which isn't an actual technology but a term used to describe push through javascript)
22:53	arnorhs	I wanted to implement this thing in a language that is natively a process
22:53	arnorhs	and I've wanted to try clojure for a long time
22:53	Raynes	->()
22:53	sexpbot	=> ()
22:53	arnorhs	so, this seemed like the perfect time
22:54	arnorhs	I thought about using web sockets (sexy) and I should actually do that instead of the comet thing.. but it's only supported in FF4, chrome and safari 5 (no IE support yet)
23:08	ihodes	arnorhs: that sounds really interesting
23:08	ihodes	arnorhs: as for sockets; are the people who'll be using your app using IE?
23:08	ihodes	arnorhs: i hate waiting for a shitty browser to play catch-up, and its market char is dropping fast (though i guess it's sitll significant)
23:20	arnorhs	ihodes: It's just about everybody
23:20	arnorhs	I have a few regular users and there are a lot of them using ie
23:21	arnorhs	I might just use comet for IE and web sockets for the rest.. and then gradually throw comet out
23:22	arnorhs	traditional comet is done through an invisible iframe and it works crappy in safari
23:22	arnorhs	so web sockets+comet
23:22	arnorhs	anyways
23:22	arnorhs	gn
23:22	arnorhs	it's 3:20 am here in Iceland
23:24	ihodes	goodnight :)
23:24	ihodes	it's just 11:30 here. plenty of time
23:37	tomoj	ihodes: websockets work in firefox?
23:38	tomoj	oh, FF4, huh? cool
23:38	ihodes	yeah. can't wait to use them everywhere soon :)
23:44	ihodes	haha that ff4 won't be seeing websockets any time soon
23:45	technomancy	not even on the DS remake?
23:45	ihodes	no, you're right. it'd really enhance the game ;)
23:45	ihodes	i'm sure it makes it into the DS
23:46	stacktracer	how do I set clojure.pprint/print-miser-width (for repl purposes)?
23:47	slyrus	and when is print-circle going to be implemented?
23:48	tomoj	does the DS have opera or is that just the wii?
23:49	technomancy	tomoj: it does, but it's slooooow.
23:50	technomancy	it's not built-in either; I had to order mine from Japanland
23:53	stacktracer	never mind ... print-right-margin is the thing I was looking for ...