#clojure – 2010-08-26

2010-08-26

00:54	ihodes	anyone home? got a q re: a simple function
00:54	mebaran151	I could try to help
00:55	ihodes	alright, so there's this post by cgrand, and it's about finding the fibo nums. (here: http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2010/06/04/primitive-support-for-fns/) and he's saying a supefast version is taking ~800ms on his new laptop. this version is many lines of code...
00:55	ihodes	,(def fibs (map second (iterate (fn [[x y]] [y (+ x y)]) [0 1])))
00:55	clojurebot	DENIED
00:56	mebaran151	ihodes: don't def
00:56	ihodes	(take 39 (map second (iterate (fn [[x y]] [y (+ x y)]) [0 1])))),
00:56	ihodes	,(take 39 (map second (iterate (fn [[x y]] [y (+ x y)]) [0 1]))))
00:56	clojurebot	(1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 75025 121393 196418 317811 514229 832040 1346269 2178309 3524578 5702887 9227465 14930352 24157817 39088169 63245986)
00:56	ihodes	that takes 0.059ms on my laptop…
00:56	ihodes	,(time (take 39 (map second (iterate (fn [[x y]] [y (+ x y)]) [0 1])))))
00:56	clojurebot	(1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 75025 121393 196418 317811 514229 832040 1346269 2178309 3524578 5702887 9227465 14930352 24157817 39088169 63245986)
00:56	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.873 msecs"
00:56	mebaran151	alright?
00:57	ihodes	well, i feel as though i'm missing something.
00:57	mebaran151	that it's going that fast?
00:57	ihodes	my little fibo fn is orders of magnitude faster than cgrand's
00:57	ihodes	and i guess rich's too
00:57	ihodes	yeah…i must be not seeing the whole picture
00:57	mebaran151	ihodes: his fib's I think were purposefully inefficient
00:58	mebaran151	they were meant to show how fast math can be
00:58	mebaran151	because you're using iterate, you're caching the intermediate results (as though you'd memoized the functions)
00:59	ihodes	"computes (fib 38) on my laptop in 650ms where my (or even Rich’s) best http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2010/06/04/primitive-support-for-fns/"
00:59	mebaran151	I don't think there's do: it was just a numeric benchmark
00:59	ihodes	"took 2 seconds"
00:59	ihodes	(later amended to 800ms)
01:00	mebaran151	see, his fib is purpsoefully bad
01:00	mebaran151	he's not trying to make it fast
01:00	mebaran151	he's trying to make a lot of math ops
01:01	mebaran151	it's like when people demonstrate the factorial function using recursion: it nicely shows the power of recursion: really a loop is probably a lot more efficient
01:03	Bahman	Hi all!
01:03	ihodes	megaran151: haha alright, i figured i was missing something there. thanks
01:08	mebaran151	no problem
01:09	mebaran151	this misunderstanding shows the most important part of programming: the right algorithm can beat the most clever compiler every single time
01:09	ihodes	exactly what i was thinking.
01:10	ihodes	though i wish there were an even nicer way to express the fibos than the one i have (above)
01:10	mebaran151	the iterate seems pretty nice to me
01:10	ihodes	i know... but mapping second over it... inelegant! haha
01:11	mebaran151	nah, that's par for the course in functional programming: you have to keep your state in your arguments
01:12	mebaran151	I think they used exponentially more math ops than you do in the iterate version
01:12	mebaran151	you could just use plain ol' loop and recur too, but I think the iterate version is a lot nicer
01:13	ihodes	it's certainly the favorite one of the far too many i've thought up haha
01:14	mebaran151	you could have also kept some atom local to your function and mutated that to maintain your state, but that wouldn't have been nearly as functional
01:14	ihodes	my favorite* but there's got to be some construct that would allow me to drop the mapping
01:14	ihodes	oh that would've been AWFUL! :P
01:14	mebaran151	you could probably do it using the lazy-seq macro, but that would be less convenient
01:17	ihodes	true, but still a little more complex than before. thank you for the help! i'm off to bed
01:21	tomoj	,(time (dorun (take 39 (map second (iterate (fn [[x y]] [y (+ x y)]) [0 1])))))
01:21	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1.371 msecs"
01:21	bartj	trying to avoid reflection warnings
01:21	bartj	why is this wrong: (map #(String. ^Byte % "UTF-8") (byte-array 100))
01:24	tomoj	there is no such string constructor
01:24	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/550864
01:24	Chousuke	do you really want to transform each byte in the array into a string? :P
01:25	bartj	Chousuke, yes (but the example I give is slightly fake)
01:25	hiredman	^- totally awesome using interpreter to figure out which classes are referenced, without executing the code and generatng an import list
01:26	Chousuke	bartj: that's weird though. You'll get completely weird results if you have anything but ASCII text :/
01:26	mebaran151	where did you get generate-imports?
01:26	hiredman	I wrote it
01:26	mebaran151	ah that would be neat to have in IDE to get all the imports upfront
01:26	hiredman	brand spanking new arkham.analytics
01:26	bartj	ok, let me clear myself
01:26	hiredman	right
01:27	mebaran151	what's arkham.analytics (other than an awesome name)
01:27	bartj	I have a Java byte array and need to get a "UTF-8" string as the output
01:27	Chousuke	bartj: you don't need map for that.
01:27	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/Arkham
01:28	Chousuke	bartj: String has a constructor for byte arrays IIRC.
01:28	bartj	er, I mean an array of byte-arrays
01:28	Chousuke	ah.
01:28	Chousuke	bartj: if you're getting reflection warnings, hint the arrays as ^bytes
01:29	bartj	currently I do: (map #(String. % "UTF-8") array-of-byte-array)
01:29	bartj	I tried to use ^Byte to avoid the reflection warnings
01:29	Chousuke	that specifies the type as Byte, not a byte array :)
01:29	Chousuke	^bytes is shorthand for a byte array type tag.
01:30	Chousuke	At least IIRC :P
01:30	tomoj	,(meta ^bytes {})
01:30	bartj	Chousuke, gee thanks, what is the longhand ;)
01:30	clojurebot	{:tag #<core$bytes clojure.core$bytes@1219ee8>}
01:30	tomoj	weird
01:30	Chousuke	hmm
01:30	Chousuke	maybe not.
01:30	hiredman	arkham.analytics can generate the correct import declaration for arkham.core
01:31	hiredman	that may also mean the interpreter can run the interpreter
01:31	Chousuke	if ^bytes doesn't work try ^"[B"
01:32	Chousuke	hiredman: you need to test that. D:
01:36	hiredman	damn
01:36	hiredman	nope
01:37	hiredman	well I know I am missing deftype, reify and set!* support
01:40	mebaran151	hiredman: it reminds me of Ruby's evil.rb
01:52	bartj	Chousuke, bytes does work, thanks!
03:21	LauJensen	Good morning all
03:22	Bahman	Morning LauJensen!
06:35	fliebel	morning
06:35	esj	salut.
06:35	raek	god morgon
07:18	vu3rdd	LauJensen: great blog post!
07:19	LauJensen	vu3rdd: Wow, thanks! I'm a little out of familiar waters when not blogging about Clojure :)
07:20	vu3rdd	LauJensen: :) I am also always looking to improving productivity and am an emacy guy..
07:21	vu3rdd	But I like those non-emacs stuff in your blog post the most. I think they are all very important and right on.
07:21	LauJensen	Great, thanks
07:22	fliebel	LauJensen: Where can I find your blog? vu3rdd made me curious.
07:22	LauJensen	bestinclass.dk
07:22	vu3rdd	http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2010/08/developer-productivity--the-red-pill.html
07:22	fliebel	I've seen that url berfore...
07:22	LauJensen	I think there's almost 35 posts on Clojure, and 2 on misc
07:24	LauJensen	And for those of you using Conkeror, you can browse all posts just hitting ]]
07:29	fliebel	LauJensen: What is the magic in Conkerer? That's what ships with KDE, right?
07:29	LauJensen	fliebel: No no no... NO!
07:29	LauJensen	Thats Konqeror
07:30	fliebel	LauJensen: Ah, you scared me :P
07:30	LauJensen	Conkeror is a webbrowser which adheres to Emacs standards. There's virtually no UI. You hit 'f' to following a link, 'g' to enter a URL, M-x some-command to run arbitrary commands. B to go back, F to go forward etc..
07:30	LauJensen	Its very, VERY fast
07:30	LauJensen	In terms of the UI. Its Mozilla under the hood, so perf like Firefox
07:31	fliebel	LauJensen: I'm a vin and webkit user ;)
07:31	fliebel	*vim
07:31	bobo_	think there is a plugin for firefox that does that, but with vim commands
07:31	LauJensen	fliebel: Then you will frown upon all talk of productivity :)
07:32	fliebel	frowns
07:34	fliebel	LauJensen: I'm just reading that your site is 'baked' as you call it. Amazing :)
07:34	LauJensen	yea its wonderful :)
07:37	fliebel	LauJensen: But you do run some script to 'log' comments?
07:37	LauJensen	No scripts - The submit form sends the comment to the backend where Moustache is waiting for it. Then its sent into a moderation queue, once I approve its directly baked into the html file
07:39	fliebel	That is what I mean, you run Moustache at the back to catch the comments.
07:39	spariev	LauJensen: great post! one question, though - does #clojure channel count as Social network :) ?
07:40	fliebel	LauJensen: Do you have a search function?
07:40	esj	spariev: no, too old skool
07:40	LauJensen	spariev: No
07:40	LauJensen	fliebel: grep goes a long way when everything is html :)
07:40	LauJensen	spariev: and thanks :)
07:41	fliebel	LauJensen: I'd generate a jsonp index and do it all in JS.
07:41	LauJensen	fliebel: I wouldn't, because I want to use Enlive for reading the data
07:42	fliebel	LauJensen: ? So how would you do it?
07:42	LauJensen	fliebel: Its open source
07:43	fliebel	LauJensen: Where is it?
07:43	LauJensen	fliebel: Right where the baked blogpost says it is :) http://github.com/LauJensen/bestinclass.dk
07:44	fliebel	LauJensen: Hadn't reached the bottom yet.
07:44	LauJensen	Sorry, no rush
07:45	spariev	btw, any recommendations on tiling wm for windows ? others, than "use Linux" :)
07:45	LauJensen	spariev: Hmm, no I think you stole my best one :)
07:45	spariev	heh
07:46	LauJensen	But are you planning on doing serious development on Windows? Seriously? :)
07:47	spariev	well, I have Ubuntu at home, but have to use Windows at work
07:48	spariev	gonna try bug.n http://www.autohotkey.net./~joten/
07:49	LauJensen	Sweet, that almost looks like Awesome
07:49	esj	spariev: i was forced into windows for a while 2 years back, at that time there was no tiling wm.
07:49	esj	I quit that job after 3 months
07:50	esj	windows is too painful
07:51	LauJensen	True, I sympathise esj that you had to go through that
07:52	esj	seriously, I won't work in a windows shop. period.
07:52	cemerick	wow, you'd think this was #linux or something :-P
07:53	LauJensen	hehe
07:53	spariev	esj: actually, usually I develop remotely on linux servers, but for other MS SQL/Office etc-related work I have to keep windoze on my desktop
07:53	LauJensen	spariev: ?!!? Its not even policy thats forcing you?
07:53	LauJensen	Why dont you jut boot MS SQL, Office etc, under Linux ?
07:53	opqdonut	can't you just run a vm
07:53	LauJensen	The only thing you cant work your way out of, is policy restrictions
07:59	bobo_	i dont find windows THAT horrible to work in
08:00	opqdonut	i find
08:00	opqdonut	cygwin alleviates it a bit
08:00	opqdonut	but the wm is horrible
08:00	spariev	opqdonut: I considered vm, but stuff I do with MS SQL and our in-house win-only apps are at times resource-heavy and it was dog-slow under vm
08:00	cemerick	Windows over linux any day of the week here. :-P
08:00	fliebel	LauJensen: Did I mention defn and I are going to do a 'baker'? that is why I'm so interested in your static site generator.
08:00	LauJensen	fliebel: No you didn't, what are you baking?
08:01	LauJensen	cemerick: please, if you're going to be unintelligent, please be quiet about it :)
08:02	LauJensen	thanks
08:02	fliebel	LauJensen: We're doing about the same as you did. Get our blogs to run on Clojure by writing a baker. With the difference that we're taking a more general approach and that I don't have a VPS to run Moustache on, so it'll be even more static than yours.
08:02	cemerick	LauJensen: it's a large, wide world. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.
08:03	LauJensen	fliebel: Great, I will look forward to seeing that, are you open sourcing it ?
08:03	fliebel	LauJensen: We named it Utterson, after the character in Jekyll(ruby) and Hyde(python). It's on github ;)
08:03	LauJensen	hehe, alright
08:04	LauJensen	Utterson... man thats almost as terrible as 'madison', why arent anybody grabbing 'Clabango' ? :)
08:04	fliebel	LauJensen: I'm thinking about a git based workflow for publishing, possibly using gh pages.
08:05	fliebel	I'm even trying to come up with something for comments that does not involve running something special on the server, but haven't figured that out yet.
08:05	LauJensen	cemerick: If you fly in for Conj Labs Frankfurt, I'll be happy to help you install Arch
08:06	fliebel	LauJensen: There are actually Clojure conferences in europe?!
08:06	cemerick	LauJensen: Thanks, but no thanks. I've had enough desktop linux pain for one lifetime.
08:06	LauJensen	fliebel: http://conj-labs.eu
08:06	fliebel	cemerick: How about BSD?
08:06	cemerick	fliebel: same-same
08:06	LauJensen	cemerick: The pain comes from ignorance, once everything is set up correctly, its a very helpful system to be on
08:07	cemerick	LauJensen: this is just like our emacs disagreement -- I've better things to do with my time on earth than screw around with window managers and the like
08:07	fliebel	LauJensen: around €1000 is a bit much for a student like me.
08:07	cemerick	nevermind getting sound cards to work :-(
08:07	LauJensen	cemerick: You're the lumberjack who's too busy to sharpen his axe. So instead of spending 2 days on getting setup, you spent 15 years working at 70% speed
08:08	fliebel	thinks cemerick should sing the lumberjack song
08:09	LauJensen	cemerick: Im not trying to give you a hard time, so if you're working on a hateful rant now, you can save it for later :)
08:09	opqdonut	I'm not convinced that what works for LauJensen works for everybody
08:09	opqdonut	but for me, yes
08:09	opqdonut	except I prefer opera >:)
08:09	LauJensen	opqdonut: Does it have keyboard browsing?
08:09	fliebel	cemerick: Don't want to be a Mac fanboy, but I havea working sound card, window manager and Unix power ;)
08:10	opqdonut	LauJensen: pretty much, yes
08:10	fliebel	LauJensen: No, mouse gestures ;)
08:10	LauJensen	haha
08:10	cemerick	LauJensen: I'm pretty sure I've never hatefully ranted at anyone. :-(
08:10	opqdonut	LauJensen: lots of one-key shortcuts, navigating with the keyboard is easy
08:10	LauJensen	cemerick: Im glad - I just wanted you to know that it wasnt personal, just in case you were warming up :)
08:10	opqdonut	, starts a search for links
08:10	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: starts in this context
08:10	opqdonut	so mostly I just navigate with ,<typesomething><return>
08:11	LauJensen	I particularily like how 'f' searches both for links and input fields
08:12	fliebel	LauJensen: http://github.com/pepijndevos/utterson There is and 'old' branch, containing our previous efforts. We both walked off, met yesterday and started over with a clean slate :)
08:12	LauJensen	Ouch :)
08:13	fliebel	LauJensen: So there is a workish generator in 'old', an not very much in 'master', but 'master' is going to be awesome.
08:13	LauJensen	Are you guys using Enlive templates to generate the html ?
08:14	fliebel	LauJensen: 'old' is using the [html [head]] thingy from contrib, the new one… enlive if it depends one me.
08:14	fliebel	LauJensen: Enlive is like DOM for Clojrue, right?
08:15	LauJensen	Ok - I dont think I could recommend any Clojure lib more than Enlive at the moment, its that good
08:15	LauJensen	fliebel: Enlive is 2 things. 1) Selectors that work like CSS selectors, and 2) Templates which allows you to transform data into html using those selectors
08:15	fliebel	LauJensen: Do you write posts in Markdown, Textile, plain HTML or something else?
08:15	LauJensen	It was a couple of relatively simple (take 'relatively' loosly), that allowed me to import my entire Wordpress blog into html
08:16	LauJensen	fliebel: I write them in a nice WYSIWYG editor
08:16	fliebel	LauJensen: What?! You? a productivity emacs guru? :P
08:17	LauJensen	Yes ma'am
08:17	LauJensen	cemerick made me :(
08:18	fliebel	My blog is currently on Posterous, but I find myself writing posts in markdown all the time, becasue wysiwyg editors screw up my html. especially things containing code.
08:18	LauJensen	Well, it helps when you write the stuff yourself
08:19	LauJensen	You can install bestinclass locally and launch the admin.clj file to bring up the admin interfaces, browse to /editor to make a blogpost, hit submit to send it to moderation in /admin
08:20	fliebel	LauJensen: Ah! so you wrote a wysiwyg editor with emacs keybindings? Or just plain old… what's the WP thing called...
08:20	fliebel	tinymce
08:20	LauJensen	fliebel: No I use the ckeditor, but I parse the results myself (not doing much to it), and the emacs keyboard bindings I get for free since I use Conkeror
08:21	fliebel	LauJensen: Okay, you win… I still prefer Markdown though.
08:21	LauJensen	I might prefer it aswell after seeing Utterson
08:22	fliebel	LauJensen: Are you runnign bestinklass.tk on a private server?
08:23	LauJensen	I have no association with bestinklass.tk
08:23	fliebel	*bestinclass.dk
08:23	LauJensen	oh, yes thats on a personal server
08:24	LauJensen	But I suppose GAE could be used if you wanted to
08:24	LauJensen	The only thing which is very non-general about my solution is its commitment to nginx - You need to run on a linux host (ofc) and you need to have the default logging module enabled
08:24	fliebel	LauJensen: That is something… Can you run any ring app on GAE's java api?
08:25	LauJensen	I would think so
08:25	LauJensen	(haven't tried)
08:25	LauJensen	There are a few annoying restrictions like no threading, no concurrency semantics
08:25	esj	seduced by the power of the dark screen he has become....
08:26	fliebel	LauJensen: Maybe only run a comments module on GAE, and keep the rest safe and warm on my local computer.
08:27	fliebel	Might even poke that together with Python...
08:27	LauJensen	fliebel: Yea, I considered outsourcing comments to DISQUS, but I think my solution is more elegant.
08:27	LauJensen	You would have to modify the queue though, as its actually handled by an agent right now, but that should only be a small workaround
08:27	sunkencityryleh	I've run clojure on appengine but I've found the environment being a little too much work to get to run smoothly
08:28	LauJensen	Something like a comments engine could nearly run on a C64, theres no work involved
08:28	fliebel	LauJensen: DISQUS had spam in its sample form when I last looked, so I'm not trusting them. Your solution is very elegant if you have access to a good server.
08:29	fliebel	good server != shared php host
08:29	LauJensen	good rule of thumb :)
08:29	LauJensen	I didn't know about the spam, scary
08:29	LauJensen	They are in wide use
08:30	fliebel	LauJensen: Maybe I'll device something with Twitter or Facebook to handle my comments :D I've also thought about merging gists and other crazy things.
08:30	LauJensen	oh no :(
08:31	fliebel	LauJensen: Yea, that's bad :(
08:32	fliebel	LauJensen: I think the gist idea is rather interesting, but not very workable.
08:32	@chouser	I've had knocking around in my head ideas for a sort of split server for blogs and websites, where the bulk of the content is handled by a static server, whose content is regenerated on demand (such as when a comment is posted) by somethat that can be slower to start (like GAE) or sometimes unavailable (like a server at home)
08:34	LauJensen	fliebel: I think its a little like stealing their capacity
08:35	fliebel	LauJensen: It is, and it wouldn't work anyway.
08:35	LauJensen	chouser: I have actually pondered a system like that myself
08:36	fliebel	LauJensen: I f you find an mbox parser for Java, you could handle comments by email :)
08:37	LauJensen	fliebel: hmm, thats not a bad idea. Just use maildir instead and you've got plaintext
08:37	LauJensen	Actually that would be super simple to set up
08:37	LauJensen	Just configure a dovecot to receive and distribute
08:38	mrBliss	If anyone's interested, here are my dotfiles (Emacs, Conkeror, Zsh etc) http://github.com/mrBliss/dotfiles
08:38	LauJensen	mrBliss: Thanks
08:38	fliebel	LauJensen: Even my PHP host has an email server built in. Just need to fetch and parse them.
08:40	LauJensen	yea, so fetchmail works with maildir I believe
08:43	fliebel	LauJensen: The interesting thing is how to match mails to posts.
08:44	LauJensen	Shouldnt be a problem
08:44	LauJensen	I dont recall how I do it now, but I wouldnt be surprised if I just inspect the referer field in the header of the POST request
08:46	fliebel	LauJensen: emails don't have a referrer, do they? or are we talking about different things?
08:46	LauJensen	No they dont, but Im just saying, but the info in the email somewhere and scan for it, emails have headers as well
08:48	fliebel	LauJensen: Tell me about it… :S They have a message ID and a lot of crap about through which servers it traveled.
08:49	fliebel	LauJensen: You could of course put something in the subject line to identify the post.
08:50	@chouser	I think you can put a subject in a mailto: url
08:50	LauJensen	yea
08:50	LauJensen	and body as well
08:50	fliebel	chouser: Yea, you can put a whole lot of gunk in the mailto url.
08:51	LauJensen	but anyway, its a non-problem
08:51	fliebel	I agree
08:52	@chouser	the biggest issue with comments, I think, is spam.
08:52	LauJensen	chouser: I haven't had a single spam comment since I added the lisp captcha
08:52	LauJensen	And I had ... MANY ... before :)
08:53	fliebel	Security trough obscurity is something when you write captchas ;)
08:54	LauJensen	If it works, it works :)
08:54	LauJensen	And since its a lisp specific captcha, I can do more of the language comparisons without getting any flame :)
08:54	fliebel	Millions of spam bots are programmed to spam wordpress blogs and circumvent re-captcha and akismet. No soe many attack bestinclass.dk
08:55	fliebel	(the platform, not the specific blog)
08:57	fliebel	waiting for defn to get started
08:57	raek	I get a "dot already refers to: #'net.licenser.sandbox/dot in namespace: se.raek.trattern" when I try to re-evaluate the ns declaration of the namespace se.raek.trattern
08:58	raek	anyone else have this problem?
08:58	LauJensen	fogus: thanks for putting my article on HN :)
08:58	fliebel	votes
08:59	LauJensen	thanks :)
08:59	fliebel	gets lost in reading HN
09:06	alekx	1. what is the essential tool set for a clojure-man?
09:06	alekx	2. is there a Sinatra-like web framework in Clojure?
09:06	MrHus	alekx: compojure
09:06	alekx	(newbie questions for learning purposes)
09:06	LauJensen	wow, 4 points and Im already #5 on HN frontpage :) thanks guys
09:07	MrHus	http://github.com/weavejester/compojure
09:07	LauJensen	alekx: A very minilistic and interesting web framework is Moustache, be sure to check it out
09:07	fliebel	LauJensen: I suppose it multiplies points by the inverse time since the submit, or something like that :P
09:07	alekx	LauJensen: is it that "Mustache"
09:08	LauJensen	Hmm
09:08	fliebel	alekx: No, that is a templating engine
09:08	LauJensen	http://github.com/cgrand/moustache
09:08	alekx	http://mustache.github.com/
09:08	LauJensen	nono alekx, http://github.com/cgrand/moustache
09:09	alekx	got it... so I got compojure (heard of it before) and moustache... that's good enough for now
09:09	alekx	what about the "toolkit"?
09:09	fliebel	alekx: Dangerous questing with all these vim and emacs people in one chanel ;) haha
09:09	alekx	are there any essential tools that would be recommended to have around? right now I'm just using clojure w/ jline
09:10	MrHus	alekx: leiningen is a must
09:10	MrHus	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
09:10	alekx	I know... I've tried to avoid any mentions of editors/IDEs/etc.
09:11	alekx	leiningen is sort of Ant + Maven, right?
09:11	fliebel	I personally have nothing but clojure, contrib, leiningen and a modal editor ;)
09:11	MrHus	alekx: correct
09:11	fliebel	How about a nice debugger?
09:12	alekx	I hope IntelliJ will help me there... but being at the beginning I'm not really sure I need it so soon
09:12	MrHus	fliebel: Are the nice clojure stacktraces not enough.
09:12	zmila	,(apply * [])
09:12	clojurebot	1
09:13	alekx	is there a link to the core/contrib APIs?
09:13	MrHus	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/
09:13	fliebel	It;s right on the homepage I think, or most of the time on top of google.
09:14	alekx	the format probably tricked me :-)
09:14	alekx	thanks
09:14	raek	http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/ is the new page
09:15	raek	the official repository is now at github.com/clojure (was at github.com/richhickey before)
09:16	LauJensen	alekx: A good slime setup and jvisualvm takes you a looong way
09:16	LauJensen	In terms of debugging
09:16	alekx	slime?
09:16	clojurebot	slime-install is an automated elisp install script at http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit/blob/2b7678e9a331d243bf32cd8b591f826739dad2d9/starter-kit-lisp.el#-72
09:16	n2n3	,()
09:16	clojurebot	()
09:16	LauJensen	alekx: Slime is SUPER LIST INTEGRATION MODE for EMACS
09:16	LauJensen	s/SUPER/SUPERIOR/
09:16	sexpbot	alekx: Slime is SUPERIOR LIST INTEGRATION MODE for EMACS
09:17	LauJensen	:)
09:17	alekx	looks like the discussion is going the direction I wanted to avoid initially :)
09:17	LauJensen	alekx: With it, you get to set breakpoints in your code, inspect locals, lookup source code, etc etc
09:17	LauJensen	Oh sorry, go on :)
09:17	mrBliss	LauJensen: wikipedia tells me it is Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs ;-)
09:17	alekx	I suck at emacs... used with new fancy IDEs and vim
09:17	LauJensen	mrBliss: :(
09:18	raek	alekx: what was compojure 0.3 is now (well basically, at least) split up into Ring (middleware and servlet containers), Hiccup (HTML generation) and Compojure 0.4 (Routing)
09:18	LauJensen	alekx: I sucked at Clojure once, didnt stop my progress though :)
09:18	LauJensen	raek: Clout as well?
09:18	alekx	and I guess I'll be sticking with those for now...
09:18	raek	Moustache is a small and well documented routing lib, really recommend it
09:19	raek	hrm, what did clout do again?
09:19	mrBliss	alekx: I have been tweaking my tools non stop since I started with Clojure (13 months ago)
09:19	alekx	I guess it's one thing to suck at a language and another to an env/editor/etc
09:19	MrHus	I don't agree with emacs for a beginner, there's just to much to lean before you can even start with clojure.
09:19	LauJensen	Wow, Im #1 on HN now :)
09:19	LauJensen	:)
09:20	n2n3	and there's a slimv.vim
09:20	alekx	anyways... no religious/vim vs emacs/vegan vs non-vegan flamewars for me :D
09:20	fogus	LauJensen: No problem. I liked it.
09:20	raek	ok, so if compojure routing was split off into clout (correct?), what is left in compojure then?
09:21	LauJensen	fogus: I appreciate any and all help I can get, to help spread the FUD :)
09:21	MrHus	raek: glue code
09:21	LauJensen	raek: A list of imports and a little routing helper I think
09:21	raek	right.
09:22	LauJensen	So again, learning both Moustache and Enlive is seriously well spent time
09:22	MrHus	I just hope ring gets to be de defacto standard, its really easy to make a small framework around it.
09:23	LauJensen	MrHus: It already is
09:23	LauJensen	Both Compojure, Conjure and Moustache rest fully on Ring
09:23	fliebel	It would be nice to have some heroku-style ring hosting...
09:23	mrBliss	What's the best way to interact with PostgreSQL from Clojure?
09:24	fliebel	LauJensen: Do you know anything about aleph + ring?
09:24	LauJensen	fliebel: A little
09:25	LauJensen	mrBliss: I recommend trying contrib.sql, theres a wiki page that shows how with psql
09:25	MrHus	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/JDBC_Examples#DataSource_-_PostgreSQL
09:25	LauJensen	Which my lovely assistant just fetched for you
09:25	fliebel	LauJensen: Just wanted to know their relation.
09:26	LauJensen	fliebel: alpeh uses Netty and not ring as far as I know
09:26	mrBliss	LauJensen & MrHus: thanks, btw Lau, what's gonna happen with ClojureQL?
09:26	fliebel	LauJensen: But you could maybe run Ring apps on Aleph ;)
09:26	LauJensen	mrBliss: Im thinking very seriously abou that right now
09:27	LauJensen	I think, I hope, that I'll find the time before new years to push it into 1.0, in which case you will have the worlds finest interface to mysql, psql and derby, which is easy to extend to any number of backends
09:27	LauJensen	But Im pressed on time, the crew has been released. Time will tell
09:27	mrBliss	LauJensen: Looking forward to it
09:27	LauJensen	Yea me too. Its frustrating that I have so little time for it, because truthfully its a fantastic project
09:28	mrBliss	LauJensen: It's ok if you spend your time on writing blogposts abouts Emacs or Clojure ;-)
09:29	LauJensen	haha, thanks
09:29	fliebel	LauJensen: Do you have anything in mind for noSQL? or is i SQL only?
09:29	LauJensen	fliebel: Meikel had almost completed Mongo integration and FleetDB is already supported
09:30	LauJensen	Which was one of the things that caused a slowdown - We were eager to work with nosql, but it required us to split the codebase
09:31	fliebel	interesting...
09:32	LauJensen	If anybody wants to donate about $5000 I'd be happy to wrap it up and tie a bow around it :)
09:32	fliebel	I still need to take a closer look at FleetDB. So far the only noSQL I've done is CouchDB.
09:33	LauJensen	I gotta jet, bbl
09:33	LauJensen	And thanks for all the upvotes guys
09:33	fliebel	:)
09:34	fliebel	When you use FleetDB in Clojure, do you talk via the server, or directly to the Clojure code?
09:36	alekx	LauJensen: at 1st glance I don't like Enlive... I think HTML code should stay HTML
09:36	MrHus	alekx: shameless self plug: http://github.com/MrHus/Hadouken
09:37	mrBliss	alekx: would you rather mix HTML with Clojure like those but ugly php scripts
09:37	mrBliss	(no offense intended for templating systems, yes offense for php ;-)
09:38	MrHus	mrBliss: php is great :p
09:39	mrBliss	MrHus: imho it's like using notepad instead of Emacs ;-)
09:40	MrHus	sure its has stupid function names with weird parameter's. No one ever knows where the haystack is.
09:40	MrHus	But it has great documentation. And it runs everywhere.
09:40	alekx	mrBliss: it doesn't need to be completely messy... there are good templating engines out there
09:41	MrHus	Plus notepad beats emacs every day :P
09:41	mrBliss	MrHus: lol
09:42	MrHus	imho emacs is absolutely horrible, I can barely tolerate aquaemacs
09:42	mrBliss	MrHus: which editor do you use then?
09:42	MrHus	textmate
09:43	sid3k	LauJensen: you've a very nice website, I'm going to follow it
09:43	mrBliss	MrHus: mmm, and on windows and Linux?
09:43	MrHus	but i don't use any fance features anyway.
09:43	sid3k	thanks for the latest post btw
09:43	MrHus	notepad++
09:43	MrHus	redcar
09:43	mrBliss	MrHus: Do you write Clojure in notepad++?
09:44	MrHus	If i need to yes.
09:44	MrHus	Or e text editor
09:44	MrHus	on windows
09:44	mrBliss	Yeah, the textmate for windows
09:44	mrBliss	Does it have a builtin repl?
09:45	MrHus	nope
09:45	MrHus	I use terminal
09:45	MrHus	and lein repl mostely
09:45	mrBliss	Does lein repl have history (select previous input etc)?
09:45	MrHus	yes
09:45	jkkramer	do any of those editors have lisp indentation yet?
09:45	clojurebot	Lisp isn't a language, it's a building material.
09:46	MrHus	Alan Kay
09:47	mrBliss	I don't know textmate very well, but can you do everything with your keyboard?
09:47	MrHus	mrBliss: http://redcareditor.com/screenshots/
09:47	MrHus	redcar is textmate for linux
09:47	MrHus	but you can do everything by keyboard
09:47	raek	was there any consensus on what the word for "clojure programmer" is, btw? Clojurian? Clojurist? Clojeur?
09:48	MrHus	the real power lies in the snippet though
09:48	mrBliss	Clojurian
09:48	mrBliss	I like CLojeur
09:48	raek	me too
09:48	MrHus	Clojurians
09:48	MrHus	http://first.clojure-conj.org/
09:48	MrHus	near the bottom
09:49	mrBliss	MrHus: isn't Redcar horribly slow (written in ruby)
09:49	MrHus	I have to admit I'm a mac guy
09:49	MrHus	so I dont use linux that much anyway
09:50	mrBliss	I have a MBP too
09:50	raek	it would be fun if Clojure would have a super hero mascot called "Sir Clojeur"...
09:50	MrHus	Whats the default notepad on linux anyway, i cant remember its name
09:50	mrBliss	Gedit for gnome
09:51	MrHus	gedit
09:51	MrHus	that one
09:51	MrHus	What linux are you running
09:51	raek	syntax hilighting for clojure was recently added to gedit
09:51	fliebel	raek: Really? nice!
09:51	mrBliss	Currently Windows 7! Programming happens in a Ubuntu 10.04 VM
09:52	raek	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/f2f698c594c84bbf/9b15b243fdfccbd5?lnk=raot
09:52	MrHus	Does arch linux have clojure support?
09:52	mrBliss	Like ubuntu?
09:52	raek	clojure really only depends on a java runtime
09:53	MrHus	but as a package
09:53	vsthesquares	hey guys, how do I get leiningen to compile all the files in my src tree?
09:54	mrBliss	MrHus: nope: http://www.archlinux.org/packages/?q=clojure
09:54	mrBliss	vsthesquares: $ lein compile
09:54	raek	I think clojure os packages aren't used that much
09:54	raek	leiningen takes care of downloading the correct clojure version
09:54	vsthesquares	mrBliss: it skips files that are in subdirs of src
09:54	raek	which might be different from project to project
09:55	mrBliss	vsthesquares: you prolly need the gen-class directive in your ns declaration
09:55	mrBliss	vsthesquares: why do you want them compiled?
09:55	raek	that depends on if he wants to generate custom java classes or not
09:56	vsthesquares	mrBliss: because otherwise main file won't compile
09:56	raek	I think one might have to add a :aot directive in the project.clj
09:56	mrBliss	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L60
09:56	MrHus	vsthesquares: are you trying to create a jar?
09:56	vsthesquares	yes, most certainly
09:57	vsthesquares	you need :aot directive for building jars?
09:57	mrBliss	no
09:57	MrHus	lein jar or lein uberjar
09:57	mrBliss	look at Uberjar on this page: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/TUTORIAL.md
09:57	MrHus	lein uberjar creates a stand alone jar
09:57	MrHus	with clojure included sort of speak
09:57	vsthesquares	alright
09:57	cemerick	fliebel: just noticed the blogging software discussion earlier; I've found wordpress.com very pleasant, including clojure code highlighting (via syntaxhighlighter)
09:57	vsthesquares	will look through those docs, thanks guys
09:58	raek	:aot is for choosing which namespaces that should be ahead-of-time compiled
09:58	vsthesquares	oh ok
09:58	raek	:main could be relevant too
09:58	vsthesquares	i got that figured out
09:59	vsthesquares	but when lein tries to compile main, it says it can't find some class files
09:59	vsthesquares	which is logical, because it hasn't compiled them
09:59	MrHus	lein jar compiles for you
10:00	mrBliss	vsthesquares: are your namespace names correct
10:00	MrHus	can you pastebin your code
10:00	mrBliss	foo.bar for src/foo/bar.clj
10:00	MrHus	might help
10:02	vsthesquares	mrBliss: okay, i got my namespaces messed up
10:02	vsthesquares	that should fix it
10:02	MrHus	please let us know
10:02	fliebel	What is the best Markdown solution I can get for Clojure? I found 3 possible options so far: MarkdownJ, Showdown+Rhino and Pegdown.
10:04	mrBliss	I'm gonna go for pegdown for my own blog
10:06	mrBliss	Last version of markdownj is from Oct 2008, pegdown 13 Aug 2010
10:06	fliebel	mrBliss: Did you manage to get it from Leiningen?
10:06	jkkramer	fliebel: had a pretty painless experience using markdownj. it's on clojars
10:06	jkkramer	pegdown looks pretty nifty, though
10:07	fliebel	jkkramer: I used Markq
10:07	fliebel	downj for awehil
10:07	fliebel	screws up typing
10:07	mrBliss	fliebel: I haven't actually used it, but: http://clojars.org/search?q=pegdown
10:07	polypus	given a leiningen project P, with a jar Q as a dev dependency, and that jar has dev dep R, will R be pulled into lib/dev if i do a lein deps in P?
10:07	vsthesquares	okay, so I guess dash in namespaces translates to underscores on the filesystem
10:07	vsthesquares	thanks guys
10:07	vsthesquares	problem solved
10:08	fliebel	jkkramer: MarkdownJ works fine, but it uses regex, which busts the stack on Java for large files.
10:12	raek	polypus: yes
10:12	notsonerdysunny	Hi everybody, I am trying to use " lein native-deps " ... Assuming that I might not be using it right i tried it on rincanter(just to test native-deps) .. and I get the following error.. "Caused by: java.lang.IllegalAccessError: make-dependency does not exist" does anybody have a suggestion?
10:12	notsonerdysunny	Leiningen 1.3.0 on Java 1.6.0_17 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
10:13	dnolen	notsonerdysunny: huh, native-deps 1.0.2 ?
10:13	notsonerdysunny	[native-deps "1.0.2"]
10:13	notsonerdysunny	dnolen: yea right
10:13	dnolen	notsonerdysunny: darn, been busy, I guess my fix wasn't enough. lein 1.3.0 shuffled a few things around.
10:14	dnolen	notsonerdysunny: will look into that.
10:14	fliebel	uh-oh… what does a clojure comment look like? not # not // … lost
10:14	notsonerdysunny	oh thanks dnolen
10:14	pdk	; fliebel
10:15	notsonerdysunny	dnolen: do you think going to lein 1.2.0 will solve the problem?
10:16	fliebel	How can I get a package updated on clojars?
10:16	dnolen	notsonerdysunny: 1.2.0 will probably work with native-deps 1.0.1
10:16	notsonerdysunny	dnolen: k will try that ..
10:16	MrHus	fliebel change your version and push again
10:17	fliebel	MrHus: I mean, a package someone else pushed to clojars.
10:17	mrBliss	fliebel: you can make your own account and update his package
10:17	mrBliss	I've seen it happen in the past
10:17	dnolen	notsonerdysunny: oh if you're feeling extra nice (and it's probably the same amount of work), you could figure out what the deal is with native-deps and send me a pathch :D native-deps is only like ~20 lines of code.
10:18	mrBliss	fliebel: like lein-javac: three versions on clojars
10:19	mrBliss	fliebel: http://clojars.org/lein-javac and http://clojars.org/org.clojars.neotyk/lein-javac (and some others)
10:19	polypus	raek: ty
10:19	fliebel	mrBliss: That's not very nice...
10:19	notsonerdysunny	dnolen: I will see what I can do .. I am all new to this java and jar stuff .. and jna .. If I can do some thing I will send you the patch
10:20	mrBliss	fliebel: it's not very nice of the authors when they don't update their package on clojars ;-)
10:21	dnolen	notsonerdysunny: thx! ... native-deps isn't very fancy. all it does is unjar the native dependencies jar into the right place. the bug is that lein fns got moved to different namespaces.
10:25	MrHus	dnolen: make-dependency is now in leiningen.util.maven
10:28	MrHus	dnolen same for make-repository
10:29	Bahman	Hi all!
10:31	dnolen	MrHus: thx
10:44	fliebel	How can I run the clj repl with all lein deps on the cp?
10:46	bobo_	fliebel: lein repl?
10:46	fliebel	bobo: wow, nice :)
10:46	bobo_	sometimes its to easy :-)
10:47	fliebel	nah, can't be to easy. Only frustrating to overlook it all the time :P
10:47	fliebel	repl is not even listed in help: pom
10:47	fliebel	help
10:47	fliebel	upgrade
10:47	fliebel	install
10:47	fliebel	jar
10:47	fliebel	test
10:47	fliebel	deps
10:47	fliebel	uberjar
10:47	fliebel	clean
10:47	fliebel	compile
10:47	fliebel	version
10:47	fliebel	new
10:47	@chouser	please don't do that.
10:48	fliebel	chouser: Did that come across as a dozen messages? at my end it looks like one
10:48	dnolen	native-deps 1.0.3 on github now, clojars later today.
10:48	@chouser	fliebel: IRC doesn't support newlines inside a single message
10:48	@chouser	fliebel: so yes, a dozen messages
10:48	fliebel	chouser: I'm sorry
10:49	@chouser	fliebel: I forgive you.
10:49	@chouser	:-)
11:00	fliebel	bobo: the lein repl doesn't seem to work properly. I still can't import pegdown.
11:03	mrBliss	fliebel: how do you import pegdown?
11:05	fliebel	mrBliss: (import (org.pegdown PegDownProcessor))
11:06	LauJensen	sid3k: thanks :)
11:07	mrBliss	fliebel: maybe you forgot the quote (import '(org.pegdown PegDownProcessor))
11:08	fliebel	mrBliss: Still the same java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.pegdown.PegDownProcessor (NO_SOURCE_FILE:3)
11:08	mrBliss	fliebel: I'm gonna try it out now (with cljr)
11:09	mrBliss	fliebel: I just tried it and it worked
11:10	mrBliss	fliebel: can you paste the output of lein classpath
11:10	mrBliss	fliebel: or check if pegdown is on your classpath
11:10	fliebel	mrBliss: classpath is not a task. Use "help" to list all tasks.
11:12	mrBliss	fliebel: which version of leiningen are you using (1.3.0 is the latest)
11:12	fliebel	mrBliss: Leiningen 1.1.0 :$
11:13	mrBliss	fliebel: you now what to do ;-)
11:14	mrBliss	s/now/know
11:16	fliebel	mrBliss: Yea, I got it from MacPorts :s Can lein upgrade itself, or do I need to get a frsh version from somewhere else?
11:17	mrBliss	fliebel: lein upgrade
11:17	fliebel	mrBliss: Guess what… upgrade is not a task. Use "help" to list all tasks.
11:17	LauJensen	Any of the Cake authors in here now?
11:18	mrBliss	fliebel: you should install it manually than
11:19	mrBliss	fliebel: replace your current lein script with http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/raw/stable/bin/lein (chmod +x it) and run lein self-install
11:19	fliebel	mrBliss: How about this? curl http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/raw/master/bin/lein \| sh
11:22	jlf`	technomancy: btw, `lein new' doesn't terminate the last line of the defproject form in project.clj with a newline
11:22	mrBliss	fliebel: $ which lein to see where you're current lein is located
11:23	fliebel	mrBliss: It's located in .Trash now I'm afraid ;)
11:24	mrBliss	fliebel: cd /opt/local/bin; sudo wget <the mentioned url>; sudo chmod +x lein; ./lein self-install
11:24	fliebel	mrBliss: I'm busy already :)
11:24	mrBliss	fliebel: let me know if it solved your problem
11:25	arohner	is there a function to remove several keys from a map at the same time?
11:25	fliebel	mrBliss: I don't get the lein installation… I download a file, run install, and the have the same file(name)
11:26	arohner	(dissoc-multi m [:a :b :c])
11:27	MayDaniel	dissoc can do that.
11:27	mrBliss	fliebel: it downloads a jar containing the real leiningen in ~/.m2/...
11:31	fliebel	mrBliss: I think it works!
11:32	mrBliss	fliebel: good work
11:32	arohner	MayDaniel: oh, thanks. I should read the doc string more often...
11:33	fliebel	mrBliss: well, almost :( after running a command I can't get back my prompt.
11:34	fliebel	ah, I can
11:35	jlf`	is there a cli for searching for clojar libraries and adding them to project.clj? maybe a lein plugin or somesuch?
11:36	mrBliss	jlf`: lein-search?
11:37	Raynes	cljr has search capabilities built in as well.
11:38	jlf`	thanks
11:40	ninjudd	LauJensen: i'm here for a few minutes
11:41	LauJensen	ninjudd: I gotta go though, so we can catch up later
11:42	ninjudd	LauJensen: i'll be around all day starting in about 2 hours
11:44	jlf`	is there a way to specify additional default dependencies and dev-dependencies for new lein projects?
11:47	mrBliss	jlf`: no easy way
11:48	fliebel	Is there any definitive guide to getting vimclojure set up with leiningen?
11:48	fliebel	I found a lot, but all of them are different.
11:48	jlf`	hmm, so lein-search must be manually added to each project for the clojar search functionality to be available in that project?
11:50	mrBliss	jlf`: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/NEWS#L36 (I haven't tried it out yet)
11:51	jlf`	mrBliss: thanks, i'll check that out
11:56	Bjering	50000k clients, jvm CPU usage, 2% :)
11:56	Bjering	eh
11:56	Bjering	50k I mean ;)
11:59	jkkramer	Bjering: nice, planning to blog or post code about your adventure?
12:00	danlarkin	what kind of clients?
12:02	Chousuke	Bjering: You had worse results earlier, didn't you? What did you do to make it better?
12:02	Bjering	Chousuke, I switched to JDK7 and Nio.2
12:03	Chousuke	Oh, cool.
12:03	Bjering	danlarkin: Chat bots, they say something every 1-10 sec
12:03	Chousuke	Bjering: so it's on par with the C++ version now?
12:03	Bjering	Chousuke, it _works_ on windows. It was the selector based "old NIO" that had horrible performance on windows.
12:04	danlarkin	Bjering: using netty? or rolled your own NIO crud?
12:04	Bjering	Chousuke: Yes, though one caveat still, its Java now, but I am sure my clojure code will be just as fast now that I am ready. (Write in java first as to follow the NIO.2 samples I saw easier)
12:05	Bjering	danlarkin, my own, as I couldnt wrap my head around Grizzly and netty dont have NIO.2
12:05	technomancy	clojurebot: forget slime-install
12:05	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
12:07	technomancy	jlf: nice catch; thanks
12:13	Bjering_	hmm :( Something is wrong. After a few minutes it totally hung my system.
12:15	LauJensen	Bjering_: I just dropped in - How did you get the JVM to perform like the C++ ?
12:15	Bjering_	By using NIO.2 on windows
12:15	Bjering_	ie the stuff that maps to IOCP
12:15	LauJensen	Ok, great
12:16	Bjering_	That is the same OS tech used by my C++ solution.
12:16	LauJensen	How did you hook into NIO.2 from Clojure?
12:16	Bjering_	havent done that yet, it was the Java version
12:16	LauJensen	oh
12:16	Bjering_	but earlier tests suggested bottleneck was all javas selector.
12:16	LauJensen	So next up from you is a wrapper-lib I assume? :)
12:17	Bjering_	yes, and perhaps when I do that I can think it through and find the bad bug that killed my system.
12:17	LauJensen	k
12:17	Bjering_	I suspect it has todo with memory, still far from the C++ one there, 1.6Gb vs 100MB.
12:18	LauJensen	Bjering_: Optimizing functional code usually boils down to one word: Allocation
12:19	LauJensen	And by boiling down I mean, removing reflection, getting to the primitives, etc..
12:20	Bjering_	Well, it the same in C++, key there is pretty much to is to never ever allocate memory... use the stack, and if that fails use your own custom mem-pool. Now I understand I need to let go of that thinking and find new ways in the jvm way.
12:20	technomancy	LauJensen: nice post ... except for the part about paredit. when are you going to come into the 21st century with us? =)
12:21	hiredman	technomancy: you see http://gist.github.com/550864?
12:22	danlarkin	hiredman: I saw, and I did an :-o
12:22	technomancy	hiredman: zomg
12:22	technomancy	my hat, sir. it is off to you.
12:23	hiredman	it's not perfect (yet)
12:26	Raynes	:-o
12:31	fliebel	hiredman: what's that gist about?
12:33	arkh	does anybody know any examples using seque?
12:33	hiredman	uses arkham (clojure interpreter) to trace clojure code without executing it, and generate imports for the classes you use
12:43	raek	hrm, auto complete messed up my slime
12:44	raek	it made the buffer-namespace association not work, so that when I evaled things in foo.clj (after having evaled (ns foo)) the defs ended up in user
12:50	slyrus	technomancy: URL for LauJensen's post you're talking about?
13:15	LauJensen	technomancy: hehe :) One day we'll sit down together, and you can show me why you love it
13:15	LauJensen	slyrus: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1635764
13:15	LauJensen	Its quite crazy how much interest that post gathered, I posted it about 4 hours ago and the site has been hit over 10.000 times already
13:16	raek	is there any way of stopping servlet containers to add "; charset=iso-8859-1" to the Content-Type header?
13:16	mefesto	i read that post this morning and thought it was really good :)
13:16	mrBliss	LauJensen: have you got a graph of the 'HN effect'?
13:16	mefesto	although i can't give up coffee :(
13:16	LauJensen	thanks mefesto :)
13:16	mefesto	the headaches are too much for me :-\
13:16	LauJensen	mrBliss: No I just count hits in my interface, hits and referrers
13:17	LauJensen	mefesto: The headaches just made me more determined, I refuse to have anything have power over me
13:17	LauJensen	But man they were bad :)
13:17	LauJensen	Even up until like the 13.th day or so, they could almost cripple me
13:18	mefesto	Yeah, I kicked coffee a while ago for 6 months, then somehow it got me again
13:24	esj	LauJensen: yeah, the headaches are the worst
13:27	Chousuke	I haven't even bothered trying to give up coffee :P Properly brewed coffee actually tastes good.
13:28	Chousuke	(I don't use sugar or milk either)
13:29	LauJensen	Workwise what I hated the most, was getting up, having my coffee and then working effectively for 1.5 - 2 hours, then feeling the slow-down, having to get a new batch. I cant say I'll ever want to go back to that
13:38	LauJensen	Is there a variable in the JVM someone, which will tell me if theres an active internet connection on all OSs?
13:40	jfields	what do you do for dissoc-in? update-in with dissoc?
13:40	@chouser	jfields: yeah
13:41	jfields	chouser, thanks.
13:41	mefesto	LauJensen: java.net.NetworkInterface.isUp() ?
13:41	mefesto	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/net/NetworkInterface.html
13:42	LauJensen	mefesto: didn't know about that one, thanks
13:42	LauJensen	I wonder when I'll get used to those docs being on oracle.com...
13:49	neotyk	Hi *, Why do I get "WARNING: promise already refers to: #'clojure.core/promise in namespace: async.http.client.test, being replaced by: #'async.http.client.util/promise"?
13:50	neotyk	ok, I had (refer-clojure .. in my (ns, instead (:refer-clojure
13:50	neotyk	thanks :)
13:52	LauJensen	np
13:58	LauJensen	,(enumeration-seq (java.net.NetworkInterface/getNetworkInterfaces))
13:58	clojurebot	(#<NetworkInterface name:tap0 (tap0) index: 4 addresses: > #<NetworkInterface name:lo0 (lo0) index: 3 addresses: > #<NetworkInterface name:xl0 (xl0) index: 1 addresses: >)
13:58	LauJensen	,(map #(.isUp %) (enumeration-seq (java.net.NetworkInterface/getNetworkInterfaces)))
13:58	clojurebot	(true true true)
13:59	LauJensen	its all true..
14:06	mefesto	LauJensen: is that good or no?
14:06	mefesto	LauJensen: I just did an ifdown eth0 and ran that and it reported false as expected
14:07	LauJensen	yea its good. You cant rely on just filtering out the first interface which is up, since lo count as such
14:07	mefesto	you can filter out lo using the isLoopback property
14:07	LauJensen	oh right
14:08	mefesto	(filter #(not (.isLoopback %)) ifaces)
14:09	mefesto	Anyone know if there is a good swt clojure wrapper somewhere?
14:11	@chouser	even if all the interfaces are, doesn't mean you have an ip address or are connected to anything
14:11	@chouser	perhaps you just want to ping some server?"
14:11	fliebel	Has anyone seen defn today? (I think clojurebot might be able to tell me that)
14:12	@chouser	~seen defn?
14:12	clojurebot	defn was last seen in #clojure, 1712 minutes ago saying: http://copperthoughts.com/p/the-golden-ratio-is-evil/
14:12	hiredman	,(/ 1712 60)
14:12	clojurebot	428/15
14:12	hiredman	,(int (/ 1712 60))
14:12	clojurebot	28
14:13	fliebel	chouser: Does clojurebot have a manual?
14:13	@chouser	fliebel: yep. his name is hiredman
14:14	fliebel	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
14:14	danlarkin	Bjering: what about NIO.2 did you find necessary? Over non-2 NIO I mean
14:15	Bjering	danlarking, It seems on windows "old-NIO" is using select, which works very poorly on windows. Windows high performance network should use IOCP.
14:16	Bjering	danlarking, but there might be some switch to make it work, I mean they have made NIO providers extendable etc, I am just to poor at the Java infrastructure to find it.
14:16	danlarkin	Bjering: ah, ok
14:19	Bjering	Well I think/hope I am done with the fiddly OS-related issues now and can focus on the fun (and on topic!) part, that is to learn how to wrap it up in good clojure code.
14:21	danlarkin	do you happen to know if nio2 is on the netty roadmap? I've used netty and I quite like its abstractions -- you too might find them useful
14:21	Bjering	A naming question, ctor-like functions, that builds an "identity", is there a standard way of naming these? Should it be create-acceptor or make-acceptor or just create or make in the acceptor namespace?
14:22	Bjering	danlarking: I did, they are great, not their fault it didnt work so well on my windows machine. I dont know how they view NIO.2 I would suspect they will add it once its officially released.
14:23	@chouser	Bjering: I haven't seen a single common naming scheme yet. make-Foo and new-Foo are both pretty common.
14:25	LauJensen	chouser: how about create- ?
14:25	@chouser	LauJensen: I haven't seen that as much.
14:26	@chouser	I'm not stating an opinion -- they all look a little ugly to me.
14:26	@chouser	wait, there I did.
14:26	LauJensen	hehe
14:26	LauJensen	What would you prefer?
14:26	@chouser	I've used new- and make- myself. Felt dirty.
14:27	mrBliss	http://lamp.epfl.ch/~odersky/blogs/isscalacomplex.html can you guys come up with good pictures for Clojure? :)
14:27	LauJensen	chouser: A near cousing to "Something." would be nice
14:28	danlarkin	I use create-
14:28	danlarkin	and make-
14:28	LauJensen	maybe you should just stick with one?
14:28	@chouser	I sometimes use foo to create Foo
14:28	danlarkin	I should, it's a bad habit
14:29	@chouser	Is it better to stick with a bad one than to experiment trying to find a good one?
14:29	LauJensen	If constructing java objects has syntatic support, shouldnt the same be available when dealing with clojure stuff?
14:29	Bjering	how finegrained should one be about namespaces, should I stick most of my functions into one namespace (caio as in clojure aio) or split into many, like "caio.acceptor", "caio.connector" etc ? I suspect the former, the latter smells of "OO-thinking" ?
14:30	LauJensen	Bjering: It depends on the size, but the former is most often used I think
14:30	Chousuke	just remember to have at least two segments in the namespace :P
14:30	Chousuke	so caio.core instead of just caio
14:31	LauJensen	also, you cant name it caio if it contains clojure code, then it must be caiojure, right technomancy? :)
14:31	Chousuke	no.
14:31	Chousuke	:P
14:31	danlarkin	a good rule of thumb is no more than a handful of functions per namespace. Some domains aren't suitable to that level of separation though
14:32	LauJensen	danlarkin: I would say very rarely do I keep them so small
14:32	Bjering	So, start with a single one, split if it becomes unwieldy? Now that suts the door on cleverly naming ctors _only_ make, but I guess that is a not such a good thing, hampers refactoring if I cannot move it around.
14:32	Chousuke	Bjering: I think in general you want to make the namespaces so that a person who only wants one piece of functionality doesn't need to require multiple namespaces.
14:33	Bjering	but prefixing/postfixing function-names depending on what datastructre they act on (or in ctor case, returns) when there exists a namespace facility feels bad too.
14:34	Chousuke	well you should try to make them polymorphic in that case :/
14:34	Bjering	well, if they are _at all related_
14:35	Chousuke	but I suppose in that case splitting them into their own namespaces can help.
14:36	Chousuke	I would err on the side of having more namespaces
14:36	Chousuke	as long as they have more than a few functions each :P
14:41	@chouser	I tend to only split namespaces if I think they're actually likely to be used independent of each other
14:49	LauJensen	btw, whats the general attitude about clojars, everybody happy with it, is it working out okay ?
14:50	Raynes	I'm certainly happy with it. Never crapped out on me before.
14:54	technomancy	LauJensen: it's quite good, but it's a very serious problem that its maintainer is not always available. he's working on moving it to somewhere that a team can admin it, but progress is slow.
14:54	LauJensen	Oh okay - So he's being kept quite busy I take it
14:55	technomancy	busy with school, it sounds like.
14:55	technomancy	once it's on the new server then kotarak and myself can help out with maintenance.
14:55	technomancy	and we can start talking about setting up mirrors.
14:56	LauJensen	Cool
14:56	LauJensen	Why is that a length progress? Copy files, change dns, life goes on?
14:57	technomancy	dunno. =\
14:57	fliebel	technomancy: I think it would also be useful to device a way to keep packages updated… as one package, not as a copy name pepijn.somepackage which is also abandoned shortly thereafter.
14:58	bartj	er, what does "^:static" mean ?
14:58	bartj	that it is a static variable ?
14:58	bartj	, (doc :static)
14:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
14:58	pdk	symbols don't have docstrings
14:58	pdk	hmm
14:58	pdk	(doc ^)
14:58	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
14:59	pdk	(doc ^)
14:59	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
14:59	pdk	(doc '^)
14:59	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
14:59	pdk	thanks clojurebot
14:59	pdk	^ must be a reader macro there so time to google that
15:00	bartj	googling [^:static] just searches for "static"
15:00	bartj	this was introduce after 1.0 for sure :)
15:00	kotarak	^:static foo means rougly (with-meta foo {:static true})
15:00	kotarak	They are not equivalent, though.
15:01	pdk	^ adds metadata to an object it seems
15:01	pdk	http://clojure.org/reader
15:01	pdk	so in this case it probably is acting as a compiler hint to make the object static that we attached the :static metadata to
15:02	arohner	bartj: ^:static attaches {:static true} as metadata to the next object. It's used in, e.g. defn to mark the function as static
15:03	arohner	a static function 1) can't be a closure, 2) can take primitives (long, double) as arguments and return a primitive
15:03	bartj	static functions in a functional langugage ?
15:04	bartj	was all of this stuff introduced in 1.2 ?
15:04	arohner	and 3) executes faster than a "normal" function because the JVM can inline it
15:04	pdk	are those the only differences with static functions in clojure
15:04	pdk	or does it also apply with the traditional java meaning when you try to make/extend a java class in clojure
15:04	arohner	they were introduced in a branch that was made between 1.1. and 1.2, and just got merged into master
15:04	technomancy	related to 3) static functions cannot be rebound.
15:05	arohner	pdk: clojure static has no relation to java the language static
15:05	LauJensen	arohner: Has this been put into an artifact yet, or is it strictly avail from github?
15:05	arohner	LauJensen: I don't know. There might be a 1.3 snapshot that contains it
15:05	@chouser	(symbol (apply str (mapcat #(cons "\n" (next (map {\0 \ \1 \#} (Long/toBinaryString %)))) [185 13235209671M 25939708511M 1654794401M 12429901063M 131081 65539])))
15:05	kotarak	LauJensen: if it's available from github it should be in the snapshots
15:06	LauJensen	kotarak: which one?
15:06	kotarak	The latest one?
15:07	LauJensen	(rich said no snapshot, just after he merged)
15:07	bartj	this static functions in clojure seems new, can any one please point to some tutorial on the web ?
15:07	LauJensen	bartj: its right around 3 days old, dunno if there are any tutorials yet, but the concept is simple
15:07	bartj	google doesn't seem to help in this rare case -
15:07	bartj	haha
15:07	kotarak	LauJensen: aha? When it's in master it should get compiled on the hudson server, I would think..
15:07	LauJensen	kotarak: Thats what I thought
15:08	arohner	bartj: the design notes are here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Enhanced_Primitive_Support
15:08	LauJensen	bartj: Its a regular function, that just works on primitives, ie math is 100x faster or so
15:08	bartj	LauJensen, I found a mention of this on your gist - http://gist.github.com/442044
15:08	bartj	and was very bewildered
15:08	technomancy	"you keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means"
15:08	LauJensen	I gist too much, blame gist.el :)
15:08	kotarak	LauJensen: the last build was 4 days ago...
15:08	LauJensen	The merge was 3 days ago I think
15:09	tomoj	a804f7c9
15:09	kotarak	LauJensen: then it's probably not contained...
15:09	mefesto	inconceivable!
15:10	bartj	sorry for sounding naive- but I thought static = "don't create an object"
15:10	bartj	that analogy doesn't seem to ring a bell for "static" functions in clojure
15:10	LauJensen	bartj: its just a word we use :)
15:10	technomancy	bartj: that's the java meaning of static, which has nothing to do with the English meaning.
15:11	tomoj	oh, changelog on hudson is backwards..
15:11	bartj	technomancy, what would you say is the true meaning ?
15:11	arohner	bartj: the clojure meaning has to do with the function not being rebound
15:11	tomoj	it's at 9b702a06d, so that's the latest :)
15:12	arohner	literally, static means "unchanging"
15:12	bartj	ok, but in the Clojure context ?
15:13	arohner	the clojure function can't be rebound, i.e. using binding
15:13	arohner	so then it doesn't need locking or a volatile
15:13	bartj	ha! so static functions are not first-class ?
15:13	bartj	or am I mixing up stuff ?
15:14	arohner	bartj: they are still first class, but they can't be in closures
15:14	arohner	so you can't do (let [a 1] (defn ^:static foo [x] (+ a x))
15:14	arohner	but you can do (defn ^:static foo [x] (inc x)) (map foo (range 0 10))
15:15	arohner	that's a map outside the defn, in case the parens aren't clear
15:15	bartj	arohner, the map example is pretty clear
15:15	arohner	first class function means the function can be passed around as a variable, like any other
15:15	dnolen	bartj: ^:static also allows the JVM to do really crazy optimization tricks
15:23	bartj	ok, thanks a lot guys
15:24	bartj	everytime I ask a question you guys just have all the answers
15:25	bartj	I was reading a bit of closures
15:25	pdk	if you were to add multiple bits of metadata to a function in a defn form arohner
15:25	arohner	pdk: I don't understand
15:25	bartj	and I think I have been using closures without knowing what they were
15:25	pdk	would it go something like (defn ^:meta1 ^:meta 2 function [args] ...) or (defn ^{:meta1 true :meta2 true} function [args] ...)
15:26	bartj	but does closure = anonymous functions ?
15:26	pdk	no
15:26	arohner	pdk: (defn ^{} function [args])
15:26	pdk	closures are created e.g. by defining a function within the body of a let form
15:26	pdk	say (let [x 1] (fn [] x))
15:27	mefesto	bartj: they also include variables available in the scope that the fn was defined in
15:27	@chouser	depends on if you want the science or engineering defintion of "closure"
15:27	pdk	in this case it returns a function that's closed over the value of x defined in the let form
15:27	mefesto	(defn make-adder [x] (fn [y] (+ x y)))
15:27	pdk	there's another example
15:28	pdk	in mefesto's example
15:28	pdk	if you call say (make-adder 3) it'd return a function that took one argument y and returned y + 3
15:28	arohner	chouser: what's the difference?
15:29	@chouser	I just mean that AFAIK there's no special case in the code for fn objects that close over things vs. those that don't.
15:29	bartj	pdk, strictly speaking there are no let forms here - http://lispwannabe.wordpress.com/2008/10/24/closures-in-clojure/
15:30	arohner	chouser: doesn't there have to be, because of ^:static?
15:30	@chouser	so from an enginerring or language implementation stand point, it's not very meaningful to give them different names
15:30	@chouser	arohner: oh, ^:static is different.
15:30	mefesto	bartj: illustrating the example a bit more: http://pastie.org/1118666
15:31	@chouser	but sciency mathy people would say (def f (fn [])) creates a function not a closure
15:31	@chouser	but the compiler doesn't care
15:31	arohner	chouser: the name is useful to distinguish what you can do with closures vs. languages that don't allow them
15:31	tomoj	hmm, I'm getting an error about missing org.clojure.contrib:complete:jar:1.3.0-SNAPSHOT, but I can see it right there at build.clojure.org/snapshots
15:32	tomoj	is [org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT"] not right?
15:32	arohner	chouser: I wouldn't say (def f (fn [])) creates a closure, because it doesn't "close over" anything
15:34	bartj	mefesto, thanks for you example, it was definitely illuminating!
15:35	@chouser	arohner: I am hereby dubbing you "mathy" :-)
15:35	arohner	ok :-)
15:35	arohner	I don't think I'm mathy, just a pedant
15:36	@chouser	I'm just suggesting it's not useful pedantry, in this case
15:36	bartj	mefesto, so, in your example add1 and add2 would be closures, right ?
15:36	@chouser	fn objects are created using the same code path, and behave the same way, whether they close over anything or not.
15:37	arohner	chouser: agreed, but I find it very useful when talking to C programmers about what makes lisp / FP different
15:37	mefesto	bartj: yeah they are functions that "closed over" the x value in the 'make-adder function
15:37	@chouser	hm, sure.
15:38	bartj	so come on! anonymous functions are closures!
15:39	bartj	because, well - they are functions whose variables are bound in the lexical enironment of the function
15:39	bartj	s/enironment/environment
15:39	arohner	bartj: you're talking about two different properties of the same thing
15:40	arohner	bartj: anonymous means, "I can create a function without naming it" i.e. (fn [x] (inc x)) has no name, unlike (defn foo [x] (inc x))
15:40	bartj	ok...
15:41	arohner	bartj: the concept of closures means, "a function can refer to variables in its enclosing scope, defined outside the function"
15:41	@chouser	,(map #(* % %) (range 5))
15:41	clojurebot	(0 1 4 9 16)
15:42	@chouser	there's an anonymous function that doesn't close over anything
15:42	arohner	bartj: so yes, clojure functions can be anonymous, and can be closures
15:42	hiredman	it means it can refer to names lexically bound in the lexical scope the function was created in
15:43	pdk	clojure has a shorthand syntax for very brief anonymous functions too as in chouser's example with the #(* % %) bit
15:43	@chouser	,(let [n 2, double (fn double [x] (* n x))] (map double (range 5)))
15:43	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8)
15:43	pdk	useful for passing simple functions as arguments for map, reduce, apply, whatever
15:43	@chouser	there's a fn named double (not anoymous) that closes over n
15:44	fogus	,(let [f (let [x 100] #(+ x %))] (f 42))
15:44	clojurebot	142
15:44	fogus	chouser: !! you're too fast
15:44	@chouser	(fn [x] (* x x)) ...another way to write the same anonymous fn
15:45	@chouser	I guess #() is called an anonymous function literal, as opposed to just an anon fn
15:45	patrkris	is reduce not using InternalReduce in 1.2?
15:45	@chouser	patrkris: I don't think so.
15:45	@chouser	it got commented out
15:45	DanielGlauser	chouser: #() is the same as (fn [] ()), correct?
15:46	patrkris	chouser: you know why?
15:46	@chouser	DanielGlauser: right
15:47	bartj	arohner, chouser hiredman I can't thank you guys enough
15:48	patrkris	chouser: no explanation in the commit log, except that rich just says he is disabling it
15:49	bartj	strictly speaking, in this example - http://pastie.org/1118666
15:50	bartj	how does make-adder "know" to assign y = 1
15:50	bartj	the above example is for closures
15:50	mefesto	make adder doesn't know about y
15:50	mefesto	make-adder returns a function/closure that accepts a parameter called y
15:51	bartj	I am sorry add1
15:51	bartj	sorry, I meant add1
15:51	mefesto	add1 = (fn [y] (+ 1 y))
15:51	@chouser	bartj: the thing that make-adder returns know the values of the things it closed over
15:51	mefesto	make-adder creates a function with x already set
15:52	pdk	in those examples make-adder doesn't know about y
15:52	mefesto	(make-adder 5) => (fn [y] (+ 5 y))
15:52	DanielGlauser	bartj: make-adder returns a function that takes one argument
15:52	pdk	it only knows about x and it returns a function that does know about y and x but has x set to whatever the argument to make-adder was
15:52	bartj	yes, sorry guys that was a mistake on my part
15:53	bartj	ok, I get it
15:54	LauJensen	Does anybody here have a working example, of setting up a connection to a h2 embedded db from clojure?
15:54	bartj	but, it looks like such a contrived example - almost like watching Inception!
15:54	DanielGlauser	Now, is the anonymous example returned by make-addr a closure?
15:54	DanielGlauser	bartj: I wouldn't be sorry, we're all trying to learn here
15:54	pdk	yeah closures dont tend to be immediately obvious how they can be used
15:54	DanielGlauser	if make-addr is a closure, what does it close over from its environment?
15:55	mefesto	make-adder is not the closure
15:55	pdk	probably helps to read tutorials on places like schemers.org/cliki, blog posts in various places, books like on lisp or let over lambda
15:55	mefesto	what it returns is the closure, right?
15:55	DanielGlauser	I meant the function it returns
15:55	pdk	that talk about lisp traits like macros/closures/whatever in depth to show the fancy pants uses of them
15:56	pdk	doesn't it close over the argument given to make-adder dan
15:56	mefesto	yes, the function it returns is because in order for that function to work, it needs to resolve x which is provided by the lexical scope it was created in
15:57	DanielGlauser	Cool, just wanted to be clear :)
15:58	mefesto	looking at the fn on it's own shows that it has to have some "extra magic" in order to work
15:58	mefesto	(fn [y] (+ x y))
15:58	mefesto	that alone couldn't work
15:59	@chouser	in fact you get a compile error
15:59	bartj	ok, the only use case for closures right now seem to be when using the surrounding variables ?
16:00	hiredman	bartj: that is literally THE case
16:00	pdk	if you did something like (let [myref (ref blah blah)] ...)
16:01	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funarg_problem
16:01	DanielGlauser	bartj: Think about a function that builds other functions and what problems you would want to solve with that pattern
16:01	pdk	then in the body of that let block you could define one or more functions that operate on that myref variable
16:01	pdk	while keeping it invisible to everything else
16:02	DanielGlauser	Let's say you were creating a function that spit out parsers, you would want to say what each parser would parse when you spit out the function
16:03	DanielGlauser	but each parser would want to take an argument of what they needed to parse
16:03	DanielGlauser	Closures are good for patterns of building functions
16:04	DanielGlauser	bartj: does that make sense or am I totally out in left field?
16:05	bartj	went to drink some water...
16:05	bartj	but, yes it makes a lot of sense right now
16:06	mefesto	bartj: this is an example of what pdk was saying: http://pastie.org/1118745
16:06	DanielGlauser	Hmmmm... perhaps we could use a place up on clojuredocs.org that covers examples of concepts as well as library functions
16:06	mefesto	the currval atom cannot be accessed by anything... kinda like a private variable
16:07	hiredman	local
16:10	bartj	mefesto, that is quite an intelligent way to get two different outputs based on your current state
16:14	pdk	also lets you keep those bits of mutable state visible only to a set of functions you're allowing to use/modify it so other bits of code can't scribble over that state
16:26	_ulises-	evening all
16:27	astoddard	is anyone here using org-babel-clojure in org-mode?
16:29	tomoj	I'm not, but I'm interested
16:29	tomoj	think it needs a rewrite
16:30	_ulises-	can anybody help me with this: http://pastebin.com/Y52yuNwi (newbie here)
16:32	mefesto	_ulises-: (load "/foo/bar") ?
16:32	_ulises	hmm, let me try
16:32	mefesto	_ulises: if you want to make an instance of foo.bar you need to compile it too
16:33	_ulises	I thought that loading foobar.clj was enough?
16:33	_ulises	also, (load "/foo/bar") doesn't work but (load "foobar") does so I suppose that the latter is the way to go
16:33	mefesto	for clj files but im guessing you want to create a java class right?
16:33	_ulises	yup :)
16:33	mefesto	i was guessing that since your ns is foo.bar that your file is foo/bar.clj ?
16:34	_ulises	oddly enough, this works just fine: (defn make-foo (proxy [Object] [] (-toString [] "Hi!")))
16:34	mefesto	if it's foobar.clj then i guess that makes sense :)
16:34	Raynes	You rarely ever need to actually compile your Clojure code to Java class files. You only need to do that for generally advanced Java interop purposes.
16:35	_ulises	mmm
16:36	arkh	mefesto: what causes the symbols test1-nextval and test2-nextval to remember (and apply) their current value to the function assigned to them?
16:37	mefesto	arkh: they are closures that have an atom called currval available in their environment
16:37	astoddard	tomoj: about org-babel-clojure, I am in the same boat
16:38	arkh	mefesto: : ( currval is local and should disappear between invocations (obviously it sticks around so I'm missing something)
16:38	astoddard	I am wondering about how to connect babel with something like cljr to control the setup
16:39	mefesto	arkh: that's the behavior of closures, they have access variables that they reference that are in the lexical scope
16:39	mefesto	*access to variables
16:40	arkh	mefesto: I'll have to read up on that. Given that the value is persistent, why is it implicitly used for the single parameter 'num'?
16:40	arkh	mefesto: subsequent calls aren't made with any arguments
16:40	_ulises	also, when I load the file, the result is nil while if I eval (proxy ...) the result is not
16:40	_ulises	:(
16:41	mefesto	arkh: this is the line of interest: (fn [] (swap! currval inc))
16:41	bartj	arkh, put in another way, they are local in their scope
16:41	mefesto	arkh: on it's own that code is invalid since currval isn't defined
16:41	mefesto	arkh: what makes it valid is the outer scope
16:41	mefesto	i hope im wording that correctly :)
16:42	arkh	but the outer scope is requires the parameter num on each execution
16:42	arkh	s/is//
16:42	sexpbot	but the outer scope requires the parameter num on each execution
16:42	mefesto	arkh: currval is an atom that is initialized to num
16:43	arkh	ohh
16:44	arkh	ok - I need to read up on closures. mefesto:. bartj: thank you for the explanations
16:45	technomancy	~suddenly
16:45	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
16:45	technomancy	what?
16:45	clojurebot	what is cells
16:45	@chouser	~cells?
16:45	bartj	arkh, you weren't here when all these guys were explaining closures to me ?
16:45	clojurebot	cells is http://gist.github.com/306174
16:45	mefesto	_ulises: this works: http://pastie.org/1118839
16:45	technomancy	clojurebot: facepalm is http://tinyurl.com/38v7jlj
16:45	clojurebot	Roger.
16:45	arkh	bartj: I think I was away and just caught the tail end of the discussion
16:45	mefesto	_ulises: but your classpath needs to be setup a certain way
16:46	_ulises	let me try
16:46	kilofu	q
16:46	arkh	bartj: I'll read the backlog ;)
16:47	mefesto	_ulises: by default clojure will compile assuming there's a classes dir in $PWD
16:47	raek	_ulises: proxy always returns an object, but gen-class generates an ordinary class when compiled
16:47	raek	so 'load' does not return an instance...
16:47	_ulises	ah, that explains the nil
16:48	_ulises	back to the (ns foo.bar ...) do I have to have foo/bar.clj ala Java?
16:48	raek	but as mefesto showed, you can compile the namespace and use the ordinary contructor syntax to create an instance
16:48	raek	_ulises: basically, yes
16:48	raek	that is the recommended way
16:48	_ulises	ok, I didn't know that, thanks
16:48	mefesto	_ulises: i don't think your file paths _have_ to match but the generated class will use the ns to create foo/bar.class
16:49	_ulises	oh!
16:49	mefesto	but yeah thats recommended
16:49	bartj	here I created one paste based on the explanations here
16:49	bartj	http://pastie.org/1118851
16:49	raek	if you require a namespace foo.bar, clojure will look for foo/bar.clj
16:50	raek	(compile looks for the file using the same rule too)
16:50	raek	also, hyphens in namespace names correspond to underscores in file names
16:50	_ulises	well, call me thick but it just doesn't work for me :(
16:51	_ulises	I've set it up like mefesto did (foo/bar.clj)
16:51	mefesto	_ulises: what was the error?
16:51	_ulises	then ran (compile 'foo.bar)
16:51	_ulises	IO exception, no such file or dir.
16:51	_ulises	hrm
16:52	mefesto	this is probably the classpath thing
16:52	_ulises	this is using cljr swank + emacs btw
16:52	mefesto	by default clojure assumes ./classes exists and is in your classpath
16:52	mefesto	you can override in the repl with: (set! compile-path ".")
16:52	_ulises	ah, it may be that ./ is not in my classpath
16:53	raek	if you do ahead-of-time compilation (or basicaly anything that requires you to divide the source into multiple files) I would recommend leiningen
16:53	mefesto	assumeing the current dir is in your classpath :)
16:54	_ulises	hrm ... still no luck :/
16:54	mefesto	_ulises: you on linux?
16:54	_ulises	os x
16:55	raek	you can print the classpath using (println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
16:55	raek	what file path does the IO exception complain about?
16:56	_ulises	that it can't find bar.clj
16:56	_ulises	but it must be the classpath as I did the set! compile-path and then it worked
16:56	_ulises	in any case, got to go, thanks for your help chaps :)
16:57	raek	I pernollay think leiningen would be a better fit than cljr in your case (at least for setting up the classpath)
16:57	raek	as it works with project directories
16:57	raek	with src/ and classes/ directories automatically added to the classpath
16:57	raek	you shouldn't have to tweak the classpath manually, really
16:59	ssideris	do you guys know whether running "lein swank" from a project dir will setup the classpath automatically for you?
17:00	Raynes	ssideris: It does.
17:01	ssideris	Raynes: thanks, I'll give it a try...
17:01	raek	it adds src/, lib/, classes/, resources/ (and maybe some more) plus those for all the dependencies and dependencies dependencies, etc
17:05	ssideris	if I add new dependencies and then run "lein deps" I suppose I'd have to re-start swank and reconnect from emacs, right?
17:05	Raynes	ssideris: Yes.
17:28	ssideris	it works! thanks :-)
18:05	jkndrkn	Hey all. I'm using a BufferedReader to access a resource hosted at a remote location. I'm doing streaming writes.
18:05	jkndrkn	*streaming reads.
18:06	jkndrkn	My application code requires me to pass this reader to an instance of SuperCSV for CSV parsing.
18:06	jkndrkn	However, I also need the raw lines of CSV for composing detailed error reports.
18:07	jkndrkn	Currently, I am having to use two readers but would like to avoid doing so since this scheme essentially requires me to pull data down twice.
18:08	jkndrkn	I can create a lazy sequence of strings from one reader, is there any way that I can both consume this lazy sequence in one place in my application code and also draw from it elsewhere by somehow converting it into a BufferedReader?
18:09	jkndrkn	In other words, can I create a BufferedReader that reads from a lazy sequence. And, if so, is this a safe approach to use that won't cause head retention or other kinds of excessive memory consumption?
18:14	raek	that should indeed be possible
18:15	raek	I have to sleep. good luck!
18:23	tomoj	did ignore-trailing-slash disappear? :(
18:48	jkndrkn	Here's my question written in a more coherent fashion: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3580152/clojure-java-most-effective-method-for-minimizing-bandwidth-consumption-when-per
18:48	jkndrkn	I would greatly appreciate if someone could take a look ^_^
18:55	ssideris	is native-deps broken?
18:55	ssideris	it seems that although i've added it as a dev dependency, :native-dependencies is being ignored
18:56	dnolen	ssideris: no it should work I just tested it this morning, you need 1.0.3 tho
18:56	dnolen	will be pushing it clojars in 30-45 minutes or so.
18:56	dnolen	ssideris: if your in a rush, just clone the git repo and run install from the repo directory
18:58	ssideris	dnolen: no particular rush, just learning how to use leiningen etc and I was hoping to play with penumbra a bit. Thanks!
18:59	wwmorgan	jkndrkn: Could you download the file to local storage, and then open two streams on it?
19:12	jkndrkn	wwmorgan: Yes, but that would defeat the purpose of streaming in the first place: to begin processing data right away as soon as it starts arriving rather than wait for the whole file to download.
19:14	jkndrkn	wwmorgan: We may have to fall back to that scheme if we can't figure out a good way to do this.
19:18	wwmorgan	jkndrkn: are you reading the records by calling CsvBeanReader.read?
19:24	@chouser	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: no 'this' pointer within static method
19:24	@chouser	what does that mean?
19:24	@chouser	or rather, what sort of code can trigger that error?
19:25	ssideris	in java?
19:25	fsmunoz	chouser: I could be completely wrong
19:25	wwmorgan	chouser: it strongly resembles the java compile-time error of having a "this" in a static method. There is no "this" for static methods
19:25	fsmunoz	chouser: but a static method doesn't have a "this", it is used fr instance methods
19:26	@chouser	right, but how to get this from a clojure defn form?
19:27	fsmunoz	chouser: I use "this" when I'm implementing istance methods via proxy... they work as expected there. Apart from that I know close to nothing.
19:29	@chouser	huh!
19:30	@chouser	ok, it appears to happen when you call a protocol method from inside a static function
19:31	@chouser	now that I say that, it sound vaguely familier. hm.
19:32	tomoj	it's a "temporary limitation"
19:34	fsmunoz	SOme hours ago I mention this doubt, bu maybe I'll have better luck now: I'm having trouble "converting" an imperative solution to a functional one. Essencially I need to build an array/vector that contains x/y coordinates for an hexagon. They are calculated like this.x[0] = foo; this.x[1] = this.x[0] + bar, etc, etc. I'm using make-array and aset now, but that is, well, hardly idiomatic. Any hints on a more "functio
19:34	fsmunoz	nal" way of going at it? I've toyed with the idea of having the two vectors as atoms, is that sensible?
19:36	wwmorgan	fsmunoz: can you paste the imperative code?
19:36	fsmunoz	wwmorgan: sure: https://malenkov.dev.java.net/20090226/hexagon.java
19:37	fsmunoz	The relevant part is there in the middle, the "this.x[0]" stuff
19:37	ssideris	i have the feeling this is going to be 4 lines in clojure :-)
19:38	fsmunoz	ssideris: that's partially what I'm hoping, I'm very aware that I'm using an hammer for everything
19:38	fsmunoz	In this case make-array, which is clearly a coup-out since it allows aset.
19:39	fsmunoz	Having 6 different let vars doesn't seem much cleaner either.
19:44	@chouser	I'd just use a let to compute the things that are used more than once first
19:44	@chouser	then put those and the remaining expressions into your array or vector or whatever.
19:47	fsmunoz	chouser: yes, that would be the "6 different let vars" approach. It would work, but somehow it doesn't look very elegant. In this situation it would work, but if doing a polygon with 20 vertices it wouln't scale well.
19:48	fsmunoz	but maybe that's the way to go, that or setting x and y as atoms and using swap!
19:48	kencausey	this doesn't seem like a common thing to me, normally shapes are going to be defined by external data
19:48	fsmunoz	would still be more imperative, but would at least avoid using Java arrays
19:48	kencausey	are you sure the issue is that you are try to treat data as code?
19:49	kencausey	s/is/isn't/
19:49	sexpbot	are you sure the isn'tsue isn't that you are try to treat data as code?
19:49	fsmunoz	kencausey: this is a grid... the hexagons will have to be drawn somehow, it's the "base world".
19:50	kencausey	ok, fine, this case may not be a problem and may really be imperative
19:50	kencausey	There is a point though on the complexity scale where it makes sense for it to change from a code issue to a data issue
19:51	fsmunoz	kencausey: yes, I was wondering that, the objective itself is merely to do the calculation for determining the vertices, so it's perhaps one of those situations were it's ok to "cheat" ;)
19:51	fsmunoz	sexpbot: how so?
19:53	fsmunoz	I really can't think of a way to draw an hexagon that doesn't involve calculating the vertices using math (and some variables that govern superficial stuff like scale)
19:53	fsmunoz	But I'm almost as bad at math as I am at clojure, so feel more than free to correct me
19:53	kencausey	the questions is not whether math is used or not
19:54	kencausey	it's whether it is done at runtime or compiletime
19:54	fsmunoz	kencausey: runtime, since e.g. the user could change the zoom scale. But why exactly is that difference important in terms of the way of calculating it?
19:55	fsmunoz	Sorry to burden you with questions that could be obvious, I'm trying to pick as much brains as possible ;)
19:55	kencausey	for a hexagon, probably none, for thousands of them or more maybe an optimization
19:55	@chouser	it'd be better to cheat with extra locals than with atoms
19:56	@chouser	atoms suggest coordinated mutation from multiple threads
19:56	fsmunoz	chouser: yes, probably bad idea, true
19:57	fsmunoz	kencausey: ahh, yes, instead of calculating it on the fly having it all pre-calculated in order to improve performance, something like that?
19:59	wwmorgan	fsmunoz: right now you're using mutation for the local variables i and j?
20:00	fsmunoz	wwmorgan: let me check, I'm not using i/j for coordinate printing yet, merely for adjusting the loop increments
20:00	fsmunoz	wwmorgan: no, I set them in let, then just use them to increment x/y in the respective recurds
20:00	fsmunoz	*recurs
20:01	fsmunoz	wwmorgan: I've used loop/recur in place of the while's in there.
20:02	@chouser	(map #(vector (+ x %1) (+ y %2)) [0 R R 0 (- R) (- R)] [(- S) (- L) L S L (- L)])
20:03	fsmunoz	Looks like TECO Emacs, which means it's probably perfect!
20:03	@chouser	heh
20:04	fsmunoz	Intersting, very interesting
20:04	fsmunoz	And without a doubt more elegant than using aset.
20:05	fsmunoz	Plus, completely functional
20:05	fsmunoz	many thanks chouser
20:05	fsmunoz	(and wwmorgan, kencausey)
20:07	fsmunoz	Part of my difficulties with Clojure have to do with imperative thinking: I've notived that when using imperative style I could get away with not knowing much about a language, but with functional programming it's almost fundamental to learn them.
20:12	wwmorgan	fsmunoz: that paint method is pretty oversized. You can get practice writing more functional clojure by writing more functional java :-)
20:13	fsmunoz	wwmorgan: ehehe, yes, but what I was really after was the hexagon stuff, it just happened to be in Java. The coords-to-x/y stuff isn't obvious, and that page has the advantage of explaining it well enough
20:14	fsmunoz	The paint stuff I'll likely rewrite (eventually having each hex drawing itself instead of doing it linearly, etc).
20:14	fsmunoz	But the calculation itself is always needed.
20:15	bortreb	fsmunoz: you're doing the meteor contest?
20:16	fsmunoz	bortreb: no, what's that?
20:16	bortreb	http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/performance.php?test=meteor
20:16	bortreb	it's a benchmark game that involves placing hexagons on a board
20:17	fsmunoz	Well, I'll be damned
20:17	fsmunoz	Plenty of source code in there!
20:17	bortreb	you can submit clojure stuff too :)
20:18	fsmunoz	bortreb: as you can see from my doubts, I don't think it would do it justice ;)
20:20	fsmunoz	But thanks a lot for the hint, I will most surely use it.
20:28	@chouser	fsmunoz: that map/vector solution may be more elegant, but it's certainly slower than a 6-clause let would be
20:28	fsmunoz	chouser: I'll optimise it latter then, at this stage I'm putting elegance above performance :D
20:28	fsmunoz	chouser: even because it has better learning value
20:29	bortreb	Is there a real solid way of creating a map of all the static final ints in a class?
20:29	bortreb	er, I mean a seq
20:33	mefesto	bortreb: by "solid" do you mean non-reflection based way?
20:33	mefesto	java.lang.reflect i mean
20:34	bortreb	not at all, just something that isn't in any way a hack
20:34	bortreb	and is in all cases functionally correct
20:36	mefesto	bortreb: not sure if contrib has something already but the manual way would be: (.getFields ClassName)
20:37	mefesto	it'll give you an array of fields that you can filter based on type or other characteristic you are looking for
20:37	bortreb	yes, I've done that, but then what? How can I sell if they're static ints and grab the actual values?
20:38	mefesto	getModifiers i believe
20:38	mefesto	java.lang.reflect.Modifier has the constants that will be bitwised or'd on the field's modifiers property
20:39	bortreb	huh
20:39	mefesto	Modifier.STATIC
20:40	mefesto	im rusty on bitwise stuff so someone please correct me but maybe: if (Modifier.STATIC & field.getModifiers()) {...} is it
20:40	bortreb	cool --- that's everything I need. thanks mefesto
20:43	mefesto	(bit-and Modifier/STATIC (.getModifiers field))
20:44	tomoj	(Modifier/isStatic (.getModifiers field))
20:45	mefesto	ugh, way better :)
20:45	bortreb	yay for tomoj!
21:17	fsmunoz	chouser: just as a note, the new version based on your map approach is much quicker than the previous one I had, which followed the original Java code using aset and aget. When maximising it would take 1 second to fill the new area, now it is immediate.
22:27	dnolen	anybody else experiencing issues pushing to clojars?
23:59	fielcabral	I just got swank-clojure from github. Should I use the latest slime on common-lisp.net with it or the one from elpa (20100404)?