#clojure – 2010-08-22

2010-08-22

00:01	trptcolin	ah, throwing an exception in the thread: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: ns with set
00:14	technomancy	ihodes: do you mean to say the repl task doesn't work at all?
00:14	technomancy	inside or outside a project?
00:14	technomancy	git master or lein stable 1.3.0?
00:18	technomancy	trptcolin: I'm thinking we could get rid of eval-without-project and just call clojure.main/repl directly
00:18	technomancy	there's also the question of whether lein repl should attempt to mimic the args of clojure.main's repl
00:18	technomancy	haven't thought that through very thoroughly yet
00:19	trptcolin	wouldn't calling clojure.main/repl directly circumvent the new port-listening feature?
00:20	technomancy	oh, of course
00:20	technomancy	so it could just eval the server form instead of using eval-in-project
00:21	trptcolin	right, and that was my first attempt, thwarted so far by the need for doing some binding magic with ns so it can be changed... not sure how to get around that
00:30	technomancy	we could still accept as much as we can of the same args as clojure.main/repl and simply pass them through
00:30	ihodes	technomancy: no, REPL works. what i've done is clone the git repo, and i'd like to be able to test my changes made there. should i compile/make a jar file and then call my hacked on version of lein with the shell script, or perhaps another way? i'm trying to figure out how you'd test changes you make to lein, as I can't test the REPL from slime/swank
00:31	technomancy	since lein repl used to be just a wrapper around clojure.main/repl, it used to do this by accident, and some people asked why it stopped working
00:31	trptcolin	yeah, that seems like a good idea.
00:31	technomancy	ihodes: you can run lein straight from the checkout; there's no need to "build" it other than just getting lein's lib/ dir populated
00:33	trptcolin	technomancy: i need to bail for the night, but yeah, having it mirror/call through to clojure.main/repl seems like the way to go. seems like it takes care of the ns-binding issues internally
00:33	technomancy	well, I'm headed off; let me know how the hacking goes.
00:33	trptcolin	:)
00:33	technomancy	thanks for your help
00:34	trptcolin	thanks for yours :) it's great to hack on a project with a helpful & available leader
01:27	Bahman	Hi all!
01:47	@chouser	Bahman: hi!
01:47	Bahman	Hello chouser!
02:32	wooby	http://gist.github.com/543427 - anybody know why this doesn't work the way a fool like i would suspect?
02:40	dsantiago	You're trying to invoke a symbol like it's a function.
02:40	dsantiago	What that does is try to look up itself in its argument.
02:41	dsantiago	For example, ('Class {'Class 2}) -> 2.
02:58	wooby	dsantiago: thanks, i see
02:58	wooby	more generally i'm looking for a way to generate a method call
02:59	dulanov	try to use defmacro
02:59	dsantiago	Yeah, you want a macro.
02:59	wooby	i am, but i hit a wall... it only works with literal arguments
03:00	wooby	it works also with def'd arguments because i eval what gets passed in, but that doesn't work with locals
03:02	wooby	http://gist.github.com/543427 updated with a new shenanigan
03:04	dsantiago	(defmacro abc [x] (let [m (symbol (str ".get" x))] `(~m (Object.))))
03:04	clojurebot	slime-install is an automated elisp install script at http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit/blob/2b7678e9a331d243bf32cd8b591f826739dad2d9/starter-kit-lisp.el#-72
03:05	dsantiago	Then you can do (abc Class)
03:06	Chousuke	wooby: macros can't work with nonliteral arguments. You can't store the method name in a runtime variable.
03:09	wooby	thanks Chousuke
03:09	wooby	and dsantiago
03:10	Chousuke	you can generate reflective code from a macro though if you need to be able to figure out the method at runtime
03:10	wooby	i think that's what i should do
03:11	wooby	hm
03:11	wooby	well i know what the method should be, i just need a good way of generating it and calling it
03:13	wooby	anyways, bedtime for me, thanks for the help folks
03:31	LauJensen	Good morning all
04:42	defn	morning
05:03	LauJensen	I dont think I quite understand this Last Var Win approach to clashes. I have a situation now where I initialize a namespace and several warnings are given that libs are overlapping. Then if I have changed one of my (:use imports) I re-eval the (ns) declaration, which now instead of warning me, throws an exception which is only resolvable by restarting the repl
05:15	noidi	I'm getting an exception when realizing a lazy seq. The problem is the stack trace only shows the fn that realizes the seq, and the fn is a common helper so I have no idea where the seq might have been created.
05:16	noidi	any idea how to find out where the buggy seq was created (other than going through the source checking all calls to the realizing fn)?
05:19	hoeck	noidi: in slime, one can throw or expand the nested exceptions and so maybe find the fn that caused the real trouble
05:20	hoeck	noidi: other IDEs should provide that too
05:21	noidi	I'm getting the error during compilation, and mvn clojure:swank compiles before launching swank so I can't get to slime
05:21	noidi	on the bright side that narrows down the calls to the fn quite a bit
05:21	LauJensen	paste the code + backtrace?
05:22	noidi	it would be nice if Clojure printed something like "Caused by realizing a lazy seq at somefile.clj:123" after the stack trace
05:22	LauJensen	yea that would be fantastic
05:22	LauJensen	Its actually a little odd that Rich has given more priority to backtraces yet
05:22	LauJensen	s/has/hasnt/
05:22	sexpbot	Its actually a little odd that Rich hasnt given more priority to backtraces yet
05:22	noidi	that should be quite doable with metadata
05:23	noidi	LauJensen, I can't, this is for work, but thanks
05:23	LauJensen	k
05:24	noidi	this is bordering on ironic, the seq is realized in a precondition that I wrote just to avoid digging through pages of stack traces :)
05:24	LauJensen	hehe
05:24	LauJensen	the only sure winner is printlines
05:25	hoeck	isn't that just as easy as (doseq [x (take-while identity (iterate #(.getCause %) <the-exception>)))] (.printStackTrace))
05:25	LauJensen	Did you see marcyks (?) 'trace all functions in an ns' trick on StackOverflow?
05:25	noidi	no
05:26	hiredman	,(use 'clojure.stacktrace)
05:26	clojurebot	nil
05:26	hiredman	,(doc root-cause)
05:26	clojurebot	"([tr]); Returns the last 'cause' Throwable in a chain of Throwables."
05:27	noidi	hiredman, thanks, I'll check that out
05:27	hiredman	~google clj.stacktrace
05:27	clojurebot	First, out of 208 results is:
05:27	clojurebot	mmcgrana's clj-stacktrace at master - GitHub
05:27	clojurebot	http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace
05:27	noidi	I get two "Caused by" stack traces alread, doesn't that suggest that Clojure's doing that already?
05:28	LauJensen	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3346382/clojure-adding-a-debug-trace-to-every-function-in-a-namespace
05:29	noidi	LauJensen, thanks
05:29	LauJensen	np
07:44	jcromartie	I don't think there's a link to http://clojure.org/datatypes on the left-hand side of clojure.org
07:46	Raynes	All hail multimethods.
07:47	jcromartie	are multimethods still relevant in light of deftype and defrecord?
07:48	jcromartie	or protocols, I suppose
07:53	LauJensen	Yea
07:53	LauJensen	They give you more freedom in terms of dispatching
07:56	raek	protocols are grouped and have better performance (since they integrate with the host's dispatch system), but are not as general as multimethods
08:08	raek	I still think multimethods are a good alternative to long conds (typically value-based)
08:08	jcromartie	nownow, here's a question
08:08	jcromartie	the docs say "By default, pr and prn print in a way that objects can be read by the reader"
08:08	jcromartie	but that's definitely not true for defrecord
08:09	jcromartie	so what are the persistence implications for defrecord, if they can't be pr'ed
08:10	raek	there is a ticket for it: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/374-print-read-syntax-for-defrecords
08:13	jcromartie	cool
08:38	noidi	is it ok to use promises as a synchronization mechanism between threads?
08:39	noidi	I call a function in thread A that starts thread B, and I want the function to wait until B has performed it's initialization before returning from the fn.
08:40	raek	noidi: do you know about futures?
08:40	noidi	would it be bad style to create a promise b-ready and at the end of the function that starts b do a @b-ready
08:40	noidi	raek, yes
08:41	raek	(my opinion is that) it would only be bad style if it could have been done with futures
08:42	LauJensen	noidi: I think all the use cases of promises are still unchartered, but your suggestion doesn't sound offensive to me, because its a phase in the thread you're waiting for and not the entire thread
08:42	noidi	yup, in my case B is a long-running thread
08:43	noidi	and I want to make sure that when I start it in A by calling (start-b), B is really ready when the function exits
08:43	LauJensen	So you'd either end up using a promise or a global/shared switch of some kind. I would try with the promise first
08:43	noidi	ok, thanks
08:44	noidi	the reason I asked if it's bad style was that I don't really care about the value of the promise, just that it's delivered
08:44	noidi	but I'll go with the promise then
08:44	LauJensen	Well. Back in the day, thats how agents were abused, simply as a way of threading operations, which eventually made the case for futures :)
08:58	no_mind	what is drupal 7 semantics web ?
09:08	LauJensen	Its a new thing for Drupal which would enable the system to understand contexts which humans intuitively pick up (http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-cms/call-for-feedback-on-drupal-7-semantic-web-impementation-006392.php)
09:09	LauJensen	Anything else you need me to google for you? :)
09:55	AWizzArd	Clojure and JNI? I have a C program which I would like to use in Clojure. This is the spell checker program “Hunspell” (used in OpenOffice, Firefox, Chrome, etc). There already IS a JNI lib for that and I use it for over a year already. But its Hunspell version is old, and also does not run on Windows64.
09:56	AWizzArd	So I am thinking about writing some bindings to call into Hunspell. Should this better be done in pure Java?
09:57	AWizzArd	Or are there benefits of doing JNI in Clojure?
09:57	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Didn't chouser work on clojure-jni interface? And also there was a debate on the ML regarding the naming of what used to be clj-native I think - I cant tell you if they would be preferable to Java in your situation, but I imagine they would
09:57	AWizzArd	LauJensen: I discovered that chouser did some JNA work.
09:58	LauJensen	Im not sure if chouser ever worked on anything which he actually completed, but there should be some code floating around :)
09:58	AWizzArd	I will ask him later about JNI.
09:59	LauJensen	AWizzArd: btw, doesnt look like Das Keyboard is purchable in Denmark, so its a good thing Im going to Germany before long
10:00	AWizzArd	LauJensen: yes, if you visit Germany by car, coming from Denmark/North you could make a stop in Kiel and buy one directly.
10:01	LauJensen	Kiel is very close to me, Frankfurt isnt :( I think I'll fly
10:02	AWizzArd	LauJensen: then you could ask kotarak to order one for you (from Kiel), and meet him in Frankfurt.
10:02	LauJensen	Yea that would work
10:33	raek	LauJensen: have you tried Das Keyboard yourself? If so, how was it?
10:38	LauJensen	raek: No - We had a lengthy (and good) debate about keyboards last night, as Im looking to buy a new one
10:38	LauJensen	AWizzArd got me hooked on Das Keyboard, technomancy suggested Kinesis Advantage or ibms M.
10:43	Chousuke	Model M keyboards work great for self-defense too.
10:43	LauJensen	Chousuke: So would Das Keyboard
10:43	qbg	My Unicomp works fine
10:43	LauJensen	(its heavily inspired by Model M)
10:44	Chousuke	LauJensen: Is it equally indestructible? :P
10:44	LauJensen	Time will tell
10:44	LauJensen	check out their website, they promote it as a better M
11:01	AWizzArd	Well, I had a Das Keyboard and Model M, and definitly find the Das better.
11:03	LauJensen	AWizzArd: How long have u had it?
11:04	AWizzArd	I got my first Das around 2006
11:04	LauJensen	How long do they last?
11:04	AWizzArd	Didn’t find out yet :)
11:05	LauJensen	Good!
11:06	AWizzArd	The scooped keys are very nice. I can blindly put my fingers on the keys and feel how they have to be positioned to type blindly.
11:06	LauJensen	scooped?
11:08	AWizzArd	http://www.tekgear.com/PDF/scooped-key.jpg
11:08	AWizzArd	On qwertz this is F and J, and those keys typically have a marker.
11:13	LauJensen	k, Dinovo has something like that, only its just a slim line
11:14	LauJensen	btw, DiNovo is worn down in max 2 years, then the keys start sounding very aged
11:14	clojurebot	maxine is http://research.sun.com/projects/maxine/
11:28	LauJensen	technomancy, Chousuke, or anybody else knowledgable with Emacs. I have M-. bound to slime-edit-definition in Clojure-mode, yet it never gives me anything other than an exception. What do you guys use to speed-jump to the definition of an fn ?
11:36	pdelgallego	is it possible to create custom task to run them with Leiningen? I mean the same way that you can create and execute rake task.
11:42	LauJensen	pdelgallego: Im not entirely sure, but I think that issue might have been one of the factors which made way for 'cake'
11:43	pdelgallego	LauJensen, you are right, I just found cake. and it looks like a rake replacement.
11:44	pdelgallego	cake documentation explains how to create custom tasks.
11:45	pdelgallego	it is nice that it support persistent jvm
11:46	LauJensen	Im still waiting for 1 - 2 hour of sparetime to play with it, but yea it looks very promising
12:08	hv	assume I don't care about leiningen plugins defined inside a project. Are there other reasons why I shouldn't keep an instance of clojure running and just send -e "(leiningen.core/-main args)" for each project?
12:16	gfrlog	would it be accurate to say that vars allow using dynamic scoping?
12:23	Chousuke	I suppose.
12:23	Chousuke	thread-isolated though.
12:24	Chousuke	ie. dynamic rebinding of a var does not affect its value in other threads.
12:27	gfrlog	but it does in other functions
12:36	raek	the variables are always lexically scoped, but the value can be dynamically bound
12:37	gfrlog	aah
12:40	raek	(def x 1) (defn f [] x) (let [x 2] (f))
12:40	gfrlog	that returns 2 I take it?
12:41	raek	this would return 2 if clojure would have dynamically scoped vars
12:41	raek	exactly
12:41	raek	(def x 1) (defn f [] x) (binding [x 2] (f))
12:41	raek	ahem... I meant "no"
12:41	raek	this however returns 2
12:42	raek	the symbol x in f is resolved to user/x (the global variable)
12:42	gfrlog	oh wait
12:42	gfrlog	hmm
12:42	gfrlog	okay
12:42	raek	the let introduces a local value in in the lexical scope of the let
12:42	gfrlog	so let always creates a new var
12:43	raek	which does not include the inside of f
12:43	gfrlog	that then is the crucial difference between binding and let?
12:43	gfrlog	other than the order thing
12:43	raek	actually, not a var, but a local name for a value
12:44	raek	binding rebinds the global variable to another value temporarily and thread-locally
12:44	raek	it's like it saved the old value, sets the var to the new value and after everything in the binding form has been executed, restores the old value of the var
12:46	raek	scoping answers the question "which var/parameter/let'ed-value?" and binding "what value?"
12:46	gfrlog	hmmm
12:46	gfrlog	okay
12:46	gfrlog	I believe good sense has been made here
12:46	gfrlog	thank you.
12:47	raek	also, note that the var has to exist before you can rebind it with binding
12:47	raek	a (def x) is sufficient
12:47	gfrlog	gotcha
12:51	Bahman	Hi all!
13:04	hv	how can I add a symbol to 'clojure.core? (intern 'clojure.core 'foo nil) and then foo gives me Unable to resolve symbol foo in this context
13:09	raek	what are you trying to do? :) (if you have to, I guess you could alway do a (in-ns 'clojure.core) and then def enything you like)
13:09	raek	*anything
13:11	hv	raek: thanks, I think that would be the same as (intern 'clojure.core 'foo ...). Maybe I am missing something else.
13:11	raek	user=> (intern 'clojure.core 'foo)
13:11	raek	#'clojure.core/foo
13:11	raek	worked for me
13:12	raek	ah, now I see
13:12	raek	you have to (use 'clojure.core) agter that
13:12	raek	otherwise, the new var will not be referred
13:12	hv	well, maybe it is actually added to clojure.core. it is just that the namespace "user" does not get it.
13:13	raek	hv, yes... intern and def should be the same in that case
13:13	raek	exactly
13:13	raek	does clojure.core/foo work?
13:13	hv	yes
13:13	dnolen	hv: (refer 'clojure.core) if you want to get it into the user namespace
13:14	dnolen	though I don't see why you'd want to put something clojure.core
13:14	raek	but now, why would you want to do all this? :)
13:14	hv	dnolen: because it is still missing from there :p
13:14	raek	then :use that var from another namespace until it appears in core
13:15	hv	raek: I am lazy
13:16	bartj	Hi, am trying to build a new interface for IRC logs
13:16	dnolen	hv: heh, what you're doing sounds like about the same amount of work.
13:16	raek	...or define it in the namespace that needs it
13:16	raek	what dnolen said...
13:17	bartj	users will tag relevant conversations with keywords (eg: clojure 1.2/ concurrency/etc) - so that users can follow relevant topics easily
13:17	bartj	do you think this would be useful ?
13:17	bartj	I find that a lot of information / my learning of Clojure was done on the IRC
13:18	bartj	what do you guys think of this ?
13:18	rhudson	Who does the tagging? When?
13:19	bartj	wiki-style -> users do the tagging
13:19	LauJensen	bartj: I think its an interesting idea to have a logreader which categories conversations based on tags, like if I said 'tag: New IRC reader' then that would become a category. If people would get behind it and support it, it could make for some sweet documentation
13:20	bartj	I have learnt so much hanging around here...
13:20	rhudson	me too
13:20	bartj	but scavenging through a lot of old logs is kinda tough
13:21	bartj	and maybe have threaded conversations too....
13:23	bartj	LauJensen, thanks!
13:27	bartj	may I ask how I can obtain the IRC logs ?
13:27	bartj	I contacted the freenode guys...and they said they didn't log anything server side
13:27	mrBliss	bartj: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
13:28	bartj	mrBliss, yes but, how is it logged - by a client ?
13:28	mrBliss	bartj: you could write a bot
13:29	LauJensen	bartj: You could write a (pirc)bot, but why not just scrape clojure-log.n01se?
13:31	bartj	am reading the first clojure log here - http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-02-01.html
13:31	Raynes	Or, you could use Irclj. :>
13:32	bartj	and the first question in there by chouser seems so surreal to me
13:32	Raynes	LauJensen: I'll let you off with a warning this time, but the next time I see you peddling Pircbots rather than Ircljbots, I'll be forced to write you a citation.
13:32	LauJensen	Sorry, ircljbots is your wrapper on pircbot I suppose+
13:33	bartj	LauJensen, yes scraping is an option
13:34	Raynes	LauJensen: Nosir.
13:34	Raynes	LauJensen: Irclj is what I wrote to avoid having to use Pircbot in sexpbot. raek also uses it.
13:34	Raynes	:D
13:34	LauJensen	oh ok - whats wrong with Pircbot?
13:34	Raynes	Nothing really. I just wanted something written in Clojure. Preferably by me.
13:35	LauJensen	Raynes: Im curious, what do you do besides hacking on interesting projects?
13:35	bobo_	scary, i was reading the source of irclj, tabbed to irc and here you are talking about it
13:35	Raynes	Watch television and eat sunflower seeds.
13:35	LauJensen	bobo_: We are very well prepared
13:35	hv	is there a "with-ns"?
13:35	LauJensen	Raynes: oh
13:36	bartj	Raynes, what's the diff b/w irclj and sexpbot ?
13:36	bartj	and which would you recommend that I use.
13:36	Raynes	bartj: sexpbot is a bot that uses Irclj.
13:37	Raynes	Irclj is the library that forms the basis of sexpbot.
13:38	Raynes	So, if you want to write your own bot, you'd want to use Irclj.
13:39	Raynes	raek: Ping me when you push. I'm going to have to take off for a couple of hours soon, so I'm going to try to get a little work done first.
13:39	bartj	Raynes, I wouldn't want to write my own bot
13:39	bartj	Raynes, just log the conversations here
13:40	Raynes	sexpbot doesn't actually have decent logging yet. However, it probably wouldn't be hard to write a quick logbot with Irclj.
13:41	bartj	Raynes, couldn't you point me to some background info/material I would need to write one ?
13:42	bartj	Raynes, *please
13:43	Raynes	Irclj's README and API docs are pretty much it as far as documentation goes. I also have a small example bot in the examples/ directory of the repository. I'll put a brief tutorial near the top of my TODO list.
13:44	raek	Raynes: pong!
13:44	Raynes	Weeee, codes.
13:44	Raynes	Oh noes, merge conflicts.
13:44	Raynes	Not quite. Local changes.
13:44	raek	could be the tabs->spaces...
13:45	raek	anyway, here's my bot using irclj: http://raek.se/trattern.clj
13:45	raek	the irc stuff is at the bottom
13:46	raek	I'm only using the :on-message callback, but so far that's the only thing I have needed
13:46	Raynes	raek: Naw, it was just a little change I made after I pushed earlier.
13:47	raek	right. don't forget to set emacs to use spaces... ;)
13:47	Raynes	I already did.
13:47	Raynes	I believe I had that set a while back.
13:47	Raynes	I must have accidentally only set it for that session.
13:48	bartj	Raynes, raek thanks!
13:48	raek	I should create a ticket to get that cond-re macro into clojure.contrib.cond
14:03	raek	hehe "Cake or death!"
14:29	rhickey	'equiv' branch now merged into master, primitive args returns et al
14:33	LauJensen	Sweet!
14:34	LauJensen	Whats the artifact for that, still 1.2-master-snapshot?
14:45	LauJensen	rhickey: got artifact?
14:54	rhickey	LauJensen: no artifact
14:55	AWizzArd	rhickey: do you already have an idea what "the" main change will be in 1.3?
14:56	AWizzArd	Pods? More Clojure in Clojure? Unboxed numbers?
14:56	LauJensen	AWizzArd: primitie args returns et al = unboxed numbers
14:57	AWizzArd	yes, I thought this could come for 1.3 as rhickey already made very substantial progress with this.
14:58	LauJensen	If its already in master I assumed it was surefire for 1.3
14:59	AWizzArd	Btw, Googles boss (Schmidt) just published some info: every 2 days now we create as much information as we did from the dawn of civilization up until 2003 - about five exabytes of data.
14:59	LauJensen	ouch
15:01	AWizzArd	He also said that he thinks that mankind is not ready for the technological revolution that is about to come soon. I guess he talks about the Singularity.
15:02	LauJensen	Really...
15:02	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Could also be a reference to Das Keyboard II, you never know :)
15:06	Scriptor	AWizzArd: does that include information that is copied from another source, or is it all new info?
15:07	fro0g	AWizzArd: yes, give us entropy information about the data
15:09	LauJensen	Weird: http://beust.com/weblog/2010/08/19/clojure-concurrency-and-silver-bullets/
15:32	amalloy	suppose i've defined a record as (defrecord Storage [a b]). is there a way i can construct it without having to pass its fields in order? eg (Storage. :b 1 :a 2)?
15:33	raek	amalloy: you have to make a functiion for that
15:34	raek	records are rarely exposed to the user (at least in clojure.core)
15:34	raek	a contructor function is very common to have
15:35	AWizzArd	amalloy: if you created a (def empty-Storage (Storage. nil nil)) then you could use into
15:35	amalloy	oh, i see. so it's stylistic/idiomatic to internally create a record, but only publicly expose a (make-myrecord) function?
15:36	AWizzArd	amalloy: in practise a factory fn is often useful
15:36	AWizzArd	Not always you will want to really store 1:1 data in your records, but instead have some initialization.
15:37	AWizzArd	Records may contain internal fields that the user is not supposed to touch, something like that.
15:38	amalloy	AWizzArd: it seems like if i want information hiding i ought to use a type instead, oughtn't i? as i understand it records are usually used just as a convenient storage space
15:40	tomoj	(defrecord Foo [a]) (Foo. 1 nil {:a 2}) ; weird
15:42	AWizzArd	tomoj: yes, there are still some things that can be optimized.
15:43	AWizzArd	for example (eval (Foo. 1)) ==> {:a 1}
15:43	AWizzArd	Records evaluate to maps, not to themselves.
15:44	akhudek	,(case (class 1)
15:44	akhudek	java.lang.Integer :x
15:44	akhudek	:y)
15:44	clojurebot	EOF while reading
15:44	akhudek	,(case (class 1) java.lang.Integer :x :y)
15:44	clojurebot	:y
15:44	akhudek	I would have expected :x there :/
15:46	nirly	I'm trying to run an example from "programming clojure" which requires that ant.jar and ant-launcher.jar be in the class-path. I'm using clojure box and added "(setq swank-clojure-classpath (list "c:/clojure")" to my .emacs file as was suggested somewhere. The books says to run this command "(def mkdir-task (org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.Mkdir.))" in the REPL in order to check that the files are available. I get " [Thrown class java.l
15:46	nirly	ang.ClassNotFoundException]" when running it.
15:50	tomoj	-> (case Integer Integer 1 2)
15:50	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.MapEntry
15:50	tomoj	wat
15:50	tomoj	,(case Integer Integer 1 2)
15:50	clojurebot	2
15:55	kmc	what's a good document for getting up to speed on the Clojure-specific aspects of Clojure quickly?
15:56	kmc	say i'm already familiar with Scheme, Haskell, FP concepts in general, etc.
15:57	dnolen	kmc: Joy of Clojure ? also I think the website is pretty good.
15:57	xternal	also, it's not really a contrast document, but I think labrepl is pretty good for diving in.
15:57	kmc	what part of the website?
15:57	xternal	http://github.com/relevance/labrepl
15:58	dnolen	kmc: pretty much the entire left column
15:58	kmc	ok
15:58	kmc	thanks
15:58	kmc	:)
16:01	akhudek	huh, that case thing is odd
16:01	akhudek	works everywhere else
16:01	akhudek	with =
16:02	akhudek	or defmulti type dispatch
16:02	dnolen	nirly: ant might not be on that path. I'm not familiar with Clojure Box, but lein can save you a lot of trouble when it comes managing your classpath
16:02	amalloy	well case is at compile time, so that's surprising in that it's a bug, but not earth-shattering
16:04	akhudek	so that is a bug then? not intended behaviour somehow?
16:05	tomoj	,(case 'Integer Integer 1 2)
16:05	clojurebot	1
16:05	amalloy	shrug i'm not a language designer or anything. but it seems to be surprising behavior, so if it's "intended" there's a bug in the documentation
16:06	tomoj	"The test-constants are not evaluated"
16:06	tomoj	doc seems fine to me
16:07	amalloy	"They...need not be quoted"
16:07	nirly	dnolen: I tried adding the actual directory that contains the jar to the classpath as well (not sure if that's what's needed), I still get the same error.
16:07	tomoj	the quoted 'Integer there is not a test constant
16:07	akhudek	ah, I see, hm
16:07	amalloy	oh right
16:08	tomoj	it's the same as (case 'x x 1 2)
16:08	nirly	dnolen: do I need to add the jar itself to the classpath?
16:08	amalloy	nirly: that's usually the case with jars
16:08	nirly	ok i'll try
16:09	akhudek	,(case (str (class 1)) "class java.lang.Integer" :x :y)
16:09	clojurebot	:x
16:10	tomoj	.getName to get rid of the "class "
16:10	akhudek	maybe I should just use a multimethod instead, although it's ironic because this is for a dispatch function
16:10	akhudek	essentially I'm trying to group certain class pairs into catagories
16:10	akhudek	and dispatch on the catagory
16:15	kmc	beginner question: i'm told clojure.contrib.complex_numbers provides complex numbers. how would i import this library in order to use it?
16:15	akhudek	(ns user (:use clojure.contrib.complex-numbers))
16:15	amalloy	from the repl, or in a package you're editing?
16:16	kmc	i'd like to edit a file, then load a repl in its namespace and poke it
16:16	akhudek	the above will import all the symbols into the "user" namespace
16:17	amalloy	(ns my-pkg (:use clojure.contrib.complex-numbers))
16:17	amalloy	then from the repl (in-ns 'my-pkg)
16:18	raek	kmc: you also probably need some kind of project management system (for example Leiningen) to start a repl or swank server with the correct CLASSPATH (so that clojure can find the files for my-pkg)
16:20	amalloy	kmc: raek is right. even if you're only editing a single file and not collaborating, leiningen is very handy to have around
16:21	raek	there are some good mini-tutorials here: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started
16:21	raek	just pick an IDE + a build tool
16:25	bobo_	dont even need an IDE, lein repl is enough if you just want a repl
16:26	tomoj	don't even need lein
16:27	bobo_	true, but then it gets annoying if you want to add deps
16:27	tomoj	indeed
16:27	bobo_	and lein is probably easier to start then just a clojure repl
16:27	rhudson	cljr is a nice middle ground
16:28	amalloy	bobo_: meh. of course i use lein, but with the clj script from clojure.contrib it's not hard to start a repl
16:30	amalloy	what's the recommended way to name packages/namespaces? the java-verbose org.mydomain.myuser.myproject.core, or the conflict-prone myproject.core, or some nice compromise?
16:32	raek	I once had an idea of starting a project name register service
16:33	raek	called something like "cljlibs"
16:33	raek	so that one could register the project "foo"
16:33	raek	and then use cljlibs.foo as the namespace
16:34	raek	my compromise so far has been to use my relatively short domain: se.raek.foo
16:34	raek	but not everyone have their own domain...
16:34	amalloy	yeah, and my domain is a bit long: org.malloys.akm (i could probly leave off akm, as nobody else in the family will use clojure ever)
16:36	amalloy	raek: let me know if you ever start cljlibs, so i can snap up project names like "poker" to sell when clojure goes mainstream
16:36	raek	:)
16:37	raek	I don't know how to handle those cases
16:37	raek	maybe an URL to existent project page should be required
16:38	raek	some middle ground between how things are done in clojars and maven's central repo
16:46	amalloy	i don't quite get when to use protocols. i just want to define a pluggable "strategy" function that takes certain parameters and can be passed to other functions. on the one hand, i would like to have the code reflect the expected parameters, but on the other it seems silly to declare a protocol and create new classes to do nothing but hold a single method
16:56	LauJensen	amalloy: Have you see the video Stuart Halloway did on Protocols?
16:56	amalloy	no, i haven't! where is it?
16:57	LauJensen	sec
16:57	LauJensen	http://vimeo.com/11236603
17:14	ssideris	hello
17:14	ssideris	I have trouble running "lein swank" on windows
17:14	ssideris	has anyone encountered such problems?
17:15	raek	what happens?
17:21	LauJensen	ssideris: To answer your question: Yea I think quite a few people have had that
17:27	ssideris	raek: it says: That's not a task. Use "lein help" to list all tasks.
17:27	ssideris	LauJensen: any way to fix it?
17:29	raek	did you run "lein deps"?
17:29	technomancy	pdelgallego: it's very easy to create new lein tasks; see the file plugins.md that comes with leiningen
17:29	ssideris	raek: yes
17:30	raek	and add swank-clojure to project.clj?
17:30	raek	if so, then I don't know
17:30	ssideris	yes, I did all that :-)
17:31	pdelgallego	technomancy, ok, Im going take a look. thx
17:31	technomancy	pdelgallego: basically: create a functino called leiningen.mytask/mytask
17:32	technomancy	pdelgallego: if it has an argument called "project", it will be passed the current project; otherwise it will be runnable outside projects. the rest of the args are just the command-line args that are passed in.
17:33	technomancy	pdelgallego: there's no difference between your custom tasks inside src/leiningen/mytask.clj and the built-in tasks, so you can look at the build-in ones as an example, or the plugins on http://wiki.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/plugins
17:34	technomancy	(not a metaphor)
17:34	pdelgallego	technomancy, I see.
17:36	ssideris	is there any other way to run swank apart from "lein swank"?
17:40	amalloy	for what it's worth, on my linux box, lein swank resolves into the following command line. you may be able to get it working by replacing the pathnames as appropriate
17:40	amalloy	java-Xbootclasspath/a:/home/akm/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0/clojure-1.2.0.jar-client-cp/home/akm/.m2/repository/leiningen/leiningen/1.3.0/leiningen-1.3.0-standalone.jar::lib/dev/swank-clojure-1.2.0.jar::src/:-Dleiningen.version=1.3.0clojure.main-e(use 'leiningen.core)(-main)/dev/nullswank
17:41	amalloy	hrm, the spaces all seem to have been stripped
17:42	raek	ssideris: lein repl, (use '[swank.swank :only [start-repl]]) (start-repl 4005 "localhost")
17:43	sunkencityryleh	Is there some variant of foldk
17:43	sunkencityryleh	whoops.
17:44	sunkencityryleh	is there some variant of inject/foldl or what it can be called that can operate on several lists at once?
17:46	sunkencityryleh	right now I zip them together first with (mapcat #(list [%1 %2] ... and then use apply when i iterate on the list
17:46	amalloy	not built-in, i think, but should be easy to write. what usage did you have in mind?
17:47	sunkencityryleh	this is the scenario
17:47	raek	,(map vector [1 2 3 4] [5 6 7 8]) ; map can take arguments from multiple sequences
17:47	clojurebot	([1 5] [2 6] [3 7] [4 8])
17:47	sunkencityryleh	(map last (drop-while #(apply = %) (mapcat #(list [%1 %2]) "FOOFOO" "FOOBAR")))
17:48	sunkencityryleh	I want to strip off the things that are similar in the beginning
17:49	sunkencityryleh	an irritating side effect of using mapcat is that the lists need to be the same length
17:49	hiredman	huh?
17:49	hiredman	do you mean the same depth?
17:50	sunkencityryleh	mapcat stops at the shortest list
17:50	sunkencityryleh	or string in this case
17:50	hiredman	ah
17:50	hiredman	right, just like map
17:50	hiredman	I was assuming you meant the sublists
17:50	raek	what do you want to return? a sequence of pairs? two sequences?
17:50	sunkencityryleh	a string ideally
17:51	sunkencityryleh	the last string in the argument to mapcat
17:51	sunkencityryleh	but without the part that similar to the first :)
17:53	sunkencityryleh	map vector is a lot cleaner than my list %... thnx
17:55	raek	I suspect you have to roll you own looping in this case
17:55	raek	shouldn't be too hard with loop and recur
17:56	raek	you kind of wanna do a [(rest a) (rest b)]
17:56	derka	Hello Guys
17:56	hiredman	or just use reduce
17:56	derka	Is anybody using clojure on macosx
17:56	derka	snowleopard
17:57	rhudson	derka: yes
17:57	derka	cool rhudson
17:58	derka	how did you setup clojure, i am trying to learn clojure, reading programming clojure book from stuart halloway, but cant find a way to properly install stuff. i havent touched java since the 90s so the setup is complicated for me :)
17:58	derka	and i am lazy
17:58	derka	:)
17:59	sunkencityryleh	raek: thanks
17:59	rhudson	I've had Java on my Mac forever so I don't remember if that's part of the standard install or not. It certainly updated Java when I upgraded to Snow
17:59	rhudson	Do you have Java on your machine?
17:59	derka	yes java is installed by default, java 1.6
18:00	rhudson	OK. Probably the easiest way to get started is to use cljr.
18:00	derka	in /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6/Home/bin/java
18:00	rhudson	You download a script that downloads everything else you need.
18:00	AWizzArd	derka: first you should decide with which environment you would like to work. A very simple start would be to download clojure.jar from http://build.clojure.org/ and put it somewhere on your disk, open a shell and cd into the right directory and then do: java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main
18:00	derka	cljr? is that: http://github.com/carlism/Clojure-MacOSX/
18:00	rhudson	No, let me find the ref
18:01	derka	ok thanks rhudson
18:01	AWizzArd	But you can also work with Emacs, Vim, NetBeans or Eclipse.
18:01	derka	thanks awizzard, i have used clojure.jar already, but in the programming clojure book there are lot of examples to test, and i need to seutp the environmment
18:01	derka	awizzard i am using textmate
18:01	rhudson	http://github.com/liebke/cljr
18:01	derka	thx rhudson
18:01	rhudson	There's a Clojure bundle fore TextMate apparently
18:02	rhudson	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Textmate
18:04	derka	thx a lot rhudson
18:04	derka	and awizzard
18:08	rhudson	AWizzArd, the reason I recommend cljr in cases like this, is that it's about the easiest way I know of to get a repl with clojure-contrib and jline on the classpath.
18:09	AWizzArd	yes sure, the example I gave is the most basic way to start with Clojure, it is only sufficient for small tests
18:09	rhudson	Right. I'd be dead without jline
18:13	amalloy	wait, i was expecting records to behave like maps: (defrecord Foo [a]) ((Foo. 17) :a)
18:16	rhudson	amalloy, as you found out they're not
18:16	rhudson	The (:a foo) form is very efficient
18:16	amalloy	oh, and (foo :a) isn't? i see
18:17	amalloy	i was thinking it'd make it awkward to get at items of a nested record hierarchy, but (.. foo bar baz) is more readable than the map equivalent
18:18	raek	shouldn't get-in work for records too?
18:18	amalloy	probably. i just don't know get-in exists :)
18:19	raek	get-in, assoc-in and update-in is a neat family of functions :)
18:19	amalloy	i knew about assoc and update, but managed to not find get
18:20	raek	I often use get when both the key and and the map are variables
18:20	amalloy	ddsolve.core> (get-in posn :state :trumps)
18:20	amalloy	; Evaluation aborted.
18:20	amalloy	ddsolve.core> (.. posn state trumps)
18:20	amalloy	:nt
18:21	raek	,(get-in {:a {:b {:c 1}}} [a b c])
18:21	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
18:21	rhudson	you can also do (-> posn :state :trumps)
18:21	raek	,(get-in {:a {:b {:c 1}}} [:a :b :c])
18:21	clojurebot	1
18:21	amalloy	oh sorry, it works - forgot you need a seq of keys, not variadic args
18:21	raek	yeah, get-in and -> have some overlap
18:24	danlarkin	hiredman: pingaling
18:26	hiredman	danlarkin: pongalong
18:38	rgl	which book do you guys advice me to buy? I was thinking Programming Clojure but I'm affraid it might be outdated that news ones like Practical Clojure?
18:38	amalloy	i've enjoyed (ha ha) The Joy of Clojure
18:39	ssideris	is "the joy" out yet?
18:39	arkh	amalloy: a good link re: clojure books is here - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2578837/comparing-clojure-books
18:39	rgl	that one is not in print yet
18:39	amalloy	no, i don't think it's out, but the MEAP has almost every chapter
18:39	arkh	ssideris: JoC is not out in print yet but you can get the full unedited version through the MEAP program
18:40	amalloy	and it discusses 1.2 features, which must be a plus if you don't want to be "outdated"
18:45	raek	if you are a beginner, I would recommend Programming Clojure
18:45	raek	I don't think that is outdated
18:45	raek	*it's
18:46	rhudson	The only parts that's outdated is the "getting started" stuff -- other than that it's a great into
18:46	rhudson	=> intro
18:46	raek	imho, the new stuff in 1.2 does not replace older stuff
18:46	arkh	I still find Programming Clojure really useful and it's only occasional that I need to remind myself what's in the changelogs for 1.1 and 1.2
18:47	raek	there are more features to fill the gaps that existed in 1.1
18:47	raek	at least when considering protocols
18:49	arkh	yeah, e.g. Prog Clojure doesn't go into deftype and defrecord very deep and says nothing about reify (along with protocols) All that intro information can be found at http://clojure.org/datatypes easily enough.
18:50	rgl	thx guys :-)
18:50	arkh	that is to say, introductory information can be found on those topics there - not saying those are all introductory features ;)
18:50	Raynes	arkh: Programming Clojure doesn't go into deftype and defrecord at all.
18:50	Raynes	It was Clojure 1.0.
18:50	rgl	I'll get practical clojure for starting with clojure. Later I'll get the joy one :-)
18:50	Raynes	raek: It's very outdated.
18:51	arkh	Raynes: defrecord is on page 5. It's not much though, more of a "this exists"
18:51	Raynes	arkh: Really?
18:51	Raynes	I never saw it.
18:51	rgl	what you guys think about enclojure.org?
18:52	rhudson	arkh: that's not the 1.2 defrecord per se -- it's handwaving about how you can add things like that with macros
18:52	arkh	rhudson: true
18:54	arkh	rhudson: lol, yeah, that's well put
18:54	rhudson	But we know it's handwaving that's fully backed up!
18:55	arkh	Raynes: you're pretty much right
18:55	Raynes	I haven't read that part of the book in a long time.
18:55	Raynes	Or any of the book for that matter. I usually refer to Joy now.
18:55	rhudson	Still, I think you need to know most of 1.0 Clojure before protocols and datatypes makes sense
18:56	amalloy	agreed. i used JoC as my intro book and pretty much glazed over that chapter
18:56	rhudson	:)
18:56	rhudson	I think JoC is a great second book
18:57	amalloy	"this sounds pretty cool, i wonder what it all means"
18:57	arkh	I really look forward to the print version. It's easier on the eyes to read a book that way (no e-reader in my inventory)
18:57	amalloy	it's coming soonish, isn't it?
18:57	rhudson	Sept I think
19:01	amalloy	does anyone know how a map is stored internally? i don't plan to rely on any implementation details, i just wonder how well clojure can avoid new'ing objects for operations like assoc
19:04	arkh	, (class {})
19:04	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
19:04	arkh	amalloy: check out the source for ^^^
19:04	amalloy	thanks
19:05	arkh	amalloy: there's a bunch of videos Rich has done, too, like http://blip.tv/file/812787
19:06	arkh	(sort of OT to your question, but they're good to see)
19:07	tomoj	amalloy: clojure can't avoid new'ing objects for assoc
19:07	tomoj	maybe I don't understand what you mean..
19:08	amalloy	tomoj: certainly it has to new some objects, eg the new map and the new key
19:09	amalloy	but does it manage to reuse references to the old key/value pairs or does it have to make new Entry's as well, was what i was thinking about
19:10	tomoj	amalloy: http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/09/08/understanding-clojures-persistenthashmap-deftwice/ and http://blog.higher-order.net/2010/08/16/assoc-and-clojures-persistenthashmap-part-ii/ might be helpful
19:10	amalloy	tomoj: thanks!
19:12	tomoj	looks like it only has to create new nodes in the trie for the path from the root to the new entry
19:13	tomoj	PersistentHashMap will probably be more interesting than PersistentArrayMap
19:14	tomoj	and it might be easier to start with vectors http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/
19:14	amalloy	yeah, i'm reading vectors
19:20	arkh	Raynes: none of my business, but will you be going to college earlier than the usual 4-years-high-school-then-college? Have you picked a college?
19:21	Raynes	I'm in 11th grade.
19:21	Raynes	Whether or not I'll go to college is up in the air. At least immediately.
19:21	Raynes	It'll probably be a while, if I do.
19:21	arkh	that's totally cool - I went right away and it probably wasn't the right time
19:22	tomoj	Raynes: wow, nice head start
19:22	Raynes	tomoj: ?
19:22	arkh	I hope you're not too frustrated by the way classes are structured, i.e. I hope you find a program that accommodate where you are with your learning
19:23	arkh	s/accommodate/accommodates
19:24	arkh	maybe Relevance will hire you out of "high school" ;)
19:24	Raynes	:p
19:24	Raynes	I'm doubtful.
19:24	Raynes	;)
19:47	amalloy	suppose i have (defrecord Foo [a b]) (let [f (Foo. 1 2), accessor :a]). is there a more-clever way to get a result of 1 than (get f accessor)?
19:49	AWizzArd	amalloy: did you try (accessor f)
19:50	amalloy	blink well, apparently not, lol
19:51	amalloy	thanks
20:24	bortreb	would a function still be pure if it opened up a swing gui window but then closed it before it itself terminated?
20:28	polypus	bortreb: not if the gui can affect your application state in any way. the function might always return the same value, but calling it pure would be a bit of a stretch
20:40	bortreb	but let's say it's just an empty window, and then it gets destroyed and garbage collected
20:41	tomoj	no.
20:41	tomoj	if you take the call to this function and replace it with its return value, the program will behave differently
20:42	bortreb	that's a very good point, but it depends on what you mean by bahave differently doesn't it?
20:43	bortreb	because, it seems like it's exactly the same as creating a mutable java object, getting something from it, and destroying it -- that is still pure isn't it?
20:43	Raynes	bortreb: Not open a GUI qualifies as behaving differently.
20:43	Raynes	Greating GUI window is a big fat side effect.
20:43	Raynes	Creating a*
20:43	bortreb	but if you could see the memory changing (like the led's on a connection machine) it would bahave differently
20:44	bortreb	so does it really depend on the observer and what he considers "different" ?
20:44	amalloy	but then no function could be pure, because they all change memory
20:44	bortreb	what if it's on a headless machine and you don't ever see the screen, is it pure then?
20:44	tomoj	just curious, why do you care?
20:45	dreish	Anyone recognize this error from "lein native-deps"? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalAccessError: default-repos does not exist (native_deps.clj:1)
20:45	bortreb	I wanted to know a more rigorous definition of "pure" -- it seems like the "pure" we throw around everyday is actually relative!
20:46	tomoj	if you want to get rigorous I think you'll have to talk about imaginary computers
20:47	tomoj	but, of course it's relative. if you consider the noise your computer makes an output of your program...
20:48	bortreb	I wrote a function using the ImageJ to transform images. that library is so tied to gui that it opens up a blank window for ~1 ms. But if I had to classify it as pure or not, I'd say it's pure...
20:48	Raynes	I'd disagree, but that's just me.
20:49	bortreb	but then you turn your monitor off or disable x, and it's suddenly pure?
20:49	bortreb	it seems you have to wither accept that or say that literally no function is pure which seems like a paradox
20:50	tomoj	if you disable x, won't the function throw an error?
20:52	bortreb	You could always intercept the call and just not display the window, but I think just turning your monitor off or running it on a headless machine is a better example
20:53	bortreb	maybe the concept is "pure at this level of detail" ?
20:53	tomoj	if a program prints to a file and no one ever looks at it, did it do any I/O?
20:55	tomoj	(I mean, it doesn't matter to me whether the monitor is on :))
20:55	bortreb	depends whether your monitor's on
20:56	tomoj	if my monitor is off, my program doesn't do file I/O? O_o
20:56	bortreb	if the hard disk played a song whenever a file was written to it, they maybe yes, but only if you care about sound?
20:57	bortreb	if you don't care about sound, then it's pure w.r.t anything non-sound related?
20:57	@chouser	the real question is -- why do you care?
20:57	Raynes	<bortreb> I wanted to know a more rigorous definition of "pure" -- it seems like the "pure" we throw around everyday is actually relative!
20:57	@chouser	if you memoize the function, will your program still work correctly?
20:58	@chouser	if you call the function in a transaction, and the transaction retries, will you program still work correctly?
20:58	@chouser	those are more interesting questions than the definition of "pure"
20:58	bortreb	that's the thing ---- it _would_
20:58	bortreb	.... unless you care about the screen
20:58	@chouser	then it's "pure enough" shrug
20:59	@chouser	hm...
20:59	bortreb	I think there's different levels of pure
20:59	bortreb	and the definition we use is: it doesn't change any state we can _see_
20:59	clojurebot	you're doing it wrong!
21:00	bortreb	lol clojurebot
21:01	tomoj	does referential transparency require that you can replace a single call with many calls?
21:01	Raynes	Regardless of whether I can see it or not, if my function does something other than compute a value and return that value, I'm going to say it isn't pure.
21:03	tomoj	I mean, e.g. if your function which opens a window is called a million times in parallel and opens a million windows...
21:03	bortreb	but to "compute a value" it still has to do physical things in the reality in which it is embedded --- what's the difference between moving a robotic arm on your hard drive platter to go to the memory location of a function definition and having your "hard drive" be a tape archive that requires a 2-ton robot to do the same?
21:05	bortreb	actually, that's exactly what it does and it makes me very sad, but in terms of taking in a bitmap and giving me a log-polar transform of that bitmap, it works correctly and is referentially transparent
21:07	Raynes	bortreb: There is a crucial difference between you and I: I don't care. ._.
21:09	bortreb	Raynes: fair enough! but it's interesting to think about sometimes nevertheless
21:11	dreish	Looks like lein 1.3.0 breaks native-deps 1.0.1. :(
21:12	dreish	Anyone know how to reach dnolen?
21:30	defn	hmmm, is it possible to define 5 defs with different values attached to them all at once?
21:30	defn	(def foo "bar"), (def baz "bees"), ...
21:31	defn	i think i want defmulti
21:32	tomoj	really?
21:32	defn	tomoj: what would you do
21:33	tomoj	(def foo "bar") (def baz "bees") ... or write a macro
21:33	tomoj	I don't see how defmulti will help you
21:34	defn	:foo, :baz
21:34	polypus	technomancy: you around? if i follow the instructions for lein-clojars and put :repositories [["clojars" "http://..."]] in project.clj, lein spews this out: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Vector arg to map conj must be a pair (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
21:34	defn	dispatch on those and return their values
21:34	tomoj	but then you still have to defmethod for each, no?
21:35	defn	oh...right :)
21:35	tomoj	and if you're doing that, you might as well just (def blah {:foo "bar"..}) and (:foo blah)
21:35	defn	nod
21:35	polypus	ok i see the leiningen sample project has a map there instead. the instructions at lein-clojars are wrong
21:36	tomoj	but maybe something like (defmacro defbymap [m] (list* 'do (for [[k v] m] `(def ~k ~v)))) ?
21:39	defn	you're awesome tomoj
21:41	defn	tomoj: i still do not understand macros
21:41	defn	teach me your magic
21:45	defn	(doc list*)
21:45	clojurebot	"([args] [a args] [a b args] [a b c args] [a b c d & more]); Creates a new list containing the items prepended to the rest, the last of which will be treated as a sequence."
21:53	tomoj	or (defmacro defbymap [m] (list* 'do (map #(list* 'def %) m))) :D
21:54	tomoj	it's just `(do ~@(for [[k v] ...
21:59	tomoj	are there any examples of &env usage out there?
22:00	qbg	I think it is used in the serializable function library
22:02	tomoj	ah, yeah, thanks
22:02	tomoj	so you do have to dig down through some undocumented java methods to use it.. strange
22:02	ihodes	http://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
22:03	ihodes	yeah it's a bit sketch
22:03	tomoj	maybe the java part of clojure uses it?
22:03	ihodes	i think it's used in conjunction with macros, specifically...? (tell me i'm wrong?)
22:04	tomoj	yeah, it's for macros, but nothing in the clojure part of clojure seems to actually use it
22:04	ihodes	yeah i think it's what is passed to macros at macro-expansion time
22:05	ihodes	since it's only, along with &form, in macro definitions
22:06	polypus	defn: could also go macroless (defn keydef [& kvs] (doseq [[k v] (partition 2 kvs)] (intern ns (symbol (name k)) val)))
22:06	polypus
22:06	polypus	val should be v
22:07	defn	polypus: cool
22:13	hamza	is there a particular reason for leiningen plugins not including lib folder in classpath?
22:14	polypus	hamza: do you mean the classpath of the lein process itself or the project classpath?
22:15	hamza	project classpath
22:15	hamza	I can't access any dependencies from my leiningen plugin because lib/ is not on the classpath
22:15	polypus	in that case i think you'd have to include the lein plugin as a regular dependency of your project and not a dev-dependency
22:16	polypus	or maybe i'm misunderstanding
22:18	hamza	I have a plugin that I am writing which needs to access a jar now the jar is in lib/ but when lein runs lib folder is not on the classpath so plugin crashes with class not found.
22:18	hamza	I am not using someone elses plugin
22:18	defn	i need some good excuses to make up some macros now...
22:20	polypus	hamza: are you running lein from within your plugin's directory to test it?
22:21	hamza	no i am running it from the project directory
22:22	tomoj	you're running lein in project/ and you want plugin/lib/ on the classpath?
22:22	tomoj	or project/lib/^
22:22	tomoj	?
22:23	hamza	running from project/ and I want project/lib/ on the classpath
22:23	tomoj	well, that's odd
22:23	polypus	ok so you have two projects, one for the plugin, and one that you are using to test the plugin right? if in the test project you have your plugin as a :dev-dependency then lein should pull in whatever jars are required by your plugin
22:23	tomoj	oh, maybe I see
22:25	hamza	polypus: I have only one project.
22:41	polypus	hamza: try the two project method i mentioned above and see how you go, works for me
22:44	polypus	i'm pretty sure it is has to do with all of your plugin's dependencies being pulled into /lib/dev when you use the two project method
22:46	tomoj	does that mean that swank-clojure has to dev-depend on itself if you want to `lein swank` with it?
22:46	defn	is there a quick way to get a-z as a list of strings, like ("a" "b" "c"...)
22:47	hiredman	,(map char (range 97 140))
22:47	defn	like a range, but for letters?
22:47	clojurebot	(\a \b \c \d \e \f \g \h \i \j \k \l \m \n \o \p \q \r \s \t \u \v \w \x \y \z \{ \\| \} \~ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
22:47	defn	oh right...thanks
23:02	slyrus	,(map (comp str char) (range 97 100))
23:02	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c")
23:02	slyrus	if you want strings
23:03	defn	slyrus: cool, thanks
23:03	defn	that's handy
23:04	defn	comp is great -- why do i never use this?
23:58	amalloy	i find myself using update-in in a way that seems silly - what's the right way to do this? (update-in m [keyword-var] inc)
23:59	amalloy	i could (assoc m keyword-var (inc keyword-var m)) but that looks worse