#clojure – 2010-08-19

2010-08-19

00:35	itistoday	is RC3 available from the github master branch?
00:36	itistoday	i'm pretty sure i'm on it, but i'm not sure whether what i have is rc3 or an older version
00:37	itistoday	err... is the master branch >= RC3?
02:00	Raynes	"Clojure goes in the right direction, but unfortunately, the trend and research is in advanced type systems and some syntax. An intermediate solution is for someone to fork Clojure and give it some nice Python-like syntax"
02:03	Scriptor	where would the "advanced type system" come from then?
02:06	Raynes	That was from a comment on this post: http://thecleancoder.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-clojure.html
02:10	tomoj	Raynes: think it's sincere?
02:11	Raynes	tomoj: Think what is sincere?
02:12	Raynes	The comment? No, it sounds like trolling to me.
02:13	tomoj	I hope so
02:16	Scriptor	someone apparently agrees with him, though
02:18	Raynes	I'm sure a lot of people who miss the cosmic point will agree with him.
02:47	LauJensen	Good morning all
02:53	Bjering	morning.
02:53	Bjering	Today I'll revisit my chat replacing alot of refs with agents.
02:56	Bjering	I did the mistake of thinking I could port my C++ solution, just replacing blocks that used to be under locks to be blocks inside dosyncs. That is obviosly an oversimplification. What you said yesterday re refs and mutable objects makes alot of sense. Seems using agent as monitors around mutable java-objects atleast will make it read cleanly. Unsure if it is a perfomance issue, but thats why I am doing a benchmark after all...
03:02	LauJensen	It will likely perform better than refs, and agents seem a good fit for a chat server
03:03	LauJensen	And a big win, is that agents dont respin
05:39	pdelgallego	hi what are good project, problems and "katas" to learn clojure?
05:41	bobo_	pdelgallego: i did project euler
05:42	pdelgallego	bobo_, I have done of them, but they are too math-centric.
05:42	pdelgallego	I did till number 12 I think
05:43	pdelgallego	bobo_, Is there something like ruby quiz or "perl challenge of the week" in clojure?
05:46	spariev	pdelgallego: have you looked into this - http://codingkata.org/katas/ ?
05:46	pdelgallego	spariev, I didnt know that one. looks good.
06:03	LauJensen	Guys - I have a little OT topic but Im hoping there's some brains in here that can tackle this: I have a login screen which posts the input fields to a backend using $.ajax(). This works in all browsers except of course IE. If you open the page in IE and submit your details, you get an error on return new A.XMLHttpRequest, saying that it doesn't implement some function. Then refresh the page, try again and it works. Anybody heard of
06:03	LauJensen	that before?
06:07	old_sound	hi
06:11	LauJensen	Oh wow, I found it. Man its subtle. If you import scripts before <meta http-equiv="Conten...> IE8 will bork on it.
06:15	bobo_	ie always wants to be special
06:18	LauJensen	I should really get to work on a script which can take over IE and force the user to use Chrome instead
06:18	bobo_	there is a jquery plugin thats only function is to crash ie
06:18	bobo_	:-)
06:19	bobo_	maybe it was just ie6, but still
06:21	LauJensen	yea its only ie6 Im afraid
06:21	Bahman	Hi all!
06:22	LauJensen	Hi Bahman, old_sound! :)
06:22	old_sound	hi there, I was wondering if there's a way of generating a class name with clojure, from a string
06:22	Bahman	Hey LauJensen! What's the old_sound BTW?
06:23	LauJensen	Bahman: Its the guy who wants to make classes out of strings
06:23	old_sound	basically I want to generate records, so If I have the string "MyClass", I would like to be able to call (defrecord MyClass [a b c])
06:23	old_sound	do you get the idea?
06:24	Bahman	LauJensen: Doh! I didn't see him. Hello old_sound :-)
06:24	old_sound	Hi there Bahman !
06:24	LauJensen	old_sound: Since defrecord is a macro I think you have to loot its source and modify it
06:25	LauJensen	~source defrecord
06:25	old_sound	but how the get the contents of the string to be used like that?
06:25	LauJensen	there, go loot
06:25	LauJensen	old_sound: I think you just need a symbol
06:25	LauJensen	,(symbol "MyClass")
06:25	clojurebot	MyClass
06:27	old_sound	I'm trying with that
06:27	old_sound	like this (defrecord (symbol "ar") [a b])
06:29	LauJensen	old_sound: You have to make your own defrecord macro, to do the name filtering
06:30	old_sound	ok, I will try to understand what that means :) I'm new to clojure
06:30	LauJensen	old_sound: the thing is, macros expand to code that is then compiled. Passing in args like you want to do isnt possible with a macro
06:31	tomoj	old_sound: this a toy?
06:31	old_sound	tomoj: a toy?
06:31	tomoj	I mean, you're just screwing around?
06:31	old_sound	no
06:31	tomoj	LauJensen: sure it is? maybe I'm confused
06:31	LauJensen	tomoj: How?
06:31	old_sound	I'm trying to convert erlang records into clojure records
06:32	tomoj	(defmacro defmyrecord [str fields] `(defrecord ~(symbol str) ~fields)) or something?
06:32	old_sound	so in erlang a record is just a tuple of this form {record_name, {{key1, val1}, {key2, val2}}}
06:32	old_sound	something like that
06:32	old_sound	I want to convert that into a clojure record
06:33	tomoj	defrecording on the fly like that seems.. odd. I don't know why, but if I felt like I wanted to do that, I'd think really hard about it
06:34	old_sound	What I do right now is to just create a map
06:34	tomoj	just looking for speed?
06:35	tomoj	I wouldn't think you'd get any speedup
06:35	old_sound	actually to have the kind of accessors functions, an perhaps add some methods later with protocols
06:35	LauJensen	tomoj: oh yea wrapping in another macro, why didnt I think of that ? :)
06:35	old_sound	I'm not looking for speed
06:35	tomoj	accessors..
06:36	old_sound	maybe that word is invented :P
06:36	clojurebot	keyword arguments is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/51bb53ca077154f8
06:36	tomoj	clojurebot: botsmack
06:36	clojurebot	clojurebot evades successfully!
06:36	LauJensen	haha
06:36	tomoj	shucks
06:37	LauJensen	tomoj: Where are you at in the world?
06:37	tomoj	austin, texas, usa
06:37	old_sound	you LauJensen ?
06:37	LauJensen	Home of Dell :)
06:37	LauJensen	old_sound: Im from Denmark (http://conj-labs.eu/instructors.html)
06:37	tomoj	I think my coworkers and I are going to start a clojure meetup here :)
06:38	LauJensen	Cool - You work with Clojure ?
06:38	tomoj	not as much as I'd like, but yeah
06:38	LauJensen	Which company ?
06:40	tomoj	borrowedsugar
06:40	old_sound	which kind of system do you work with?
06:40	LauJensen	Interesting!
06:41	tomoj	I wonder if any other austinites ever come here
06:41	zmila	new micro-interview :)
06:41	LauJensen	zmila: where?
06:41	zmila	right here right now :)
06:42	old_sound	well thanks for the help guys, I have to head home now
06:42	LauJensen	tomoj: What does 'tomoj' mean ?
06:44	tomoj	'tomo' was my nickname (originally from esperanto-izing my given name), 'j' my last initial
06:45	LauJensen	oh okay
06:45	tomoj	coincidentally zo .tomoj. cu drani cmevla .ui
06:45	LauJensen	sure
06:46	zmila	tomoj estas multaj tomo-j :)
06:46	zmila	tomoj is a lot of tomo-s
06:49	tomoj	huh, coincidentally plural as well..
06:49	LauJensen	btw, here's a nice stunt. I have a preinstalled Windows 7 on my laptop just sitting in /dev/sda2, I never use it, but today I found out how to directly link that using Vbox and boot Windows 7 inside Arch from /dev/sda2 :)
06:50	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: makes it a difference performance wise? partition vs. container file?
06:51	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: Dont know
06:51	tomoj	that's interesting
06:51	LauJensen	The big difference is I dont need an imagine, and if I reboot into it from grub, I get all the changes Ive made while having the vbox running
06:51	LauJensen	s/imagine/image/
06:51	sexpbot	The big difference is I dont need an image, and if I reboot into it from grub, I get all the changes Ive made while having the vbox running
06:51	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: thats a good point
06:52	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: does it manage the differnet devices well? virtualized network adapter vs. the real one?
06:52	LauJensen	Network and USB works fine. I havent made any special configs for anything else. I doubt I could get bluetooth to work easily
06:53	LauJensen	But it would make some network testing easier, as you can assign a number of network cards, with handpicked mac-adrs and vendor stringds
06:53	soyrochus	Hi there, I'm currently using Scriptjure to incorportate Javascript in a compojure/Ring project. Works well. But would be nice if ClojureScript would be maintained. Is there any news on that front?
06:54	LauJensen	soyrochus: Yea, the news is that most of CS becomes redundant once Clojure-in-Clojure is done. So the project is on hold I believe
06:54	LauJensen	soyrochus: the guy behind it, chouser_, practically lives in here, so you can check with him in a few hours
06:57	soyrochus	ok, thanks. I'm currently using the CLR version as well and it's more fragile nature can sometimes be maddening. Would be nice if CiC would help alleviate that
06:58	yonatan_	LauJensen: is there en ETA for clojure-in-clojure?
06:58	yonatan_	s/en/an
06:58	bsteuber	are there standard library functions for converting clojure-symbols to camelCase?
06:58	LauJensen	yonatan_: Not officially, but I recommend that you dont hold your breath
06:59	LauJensen	bsteuber: yes - I forgot where
07:00	bsteuber	hm, too bad :)
07:00	ordnungswidrig	bsteuber: a simple regex should do, shoudn't it?
07:00	tomoj	regex?
07:00	clojurebot	Sometimes people have a problem, and decide to solve it with regular expressions. Now they have two problems.
07:01	bsteuber	well, I guess I just use split and (map capitalize-first) or so
07:01	tomoj	hmm, munge goes to under_score
07:01	ordnungswidrig	hmm, java regex cannot do uppercase, I fear.
07:02	soyrochus	LauJensen: pity, I'm working in a multi-platform shop and Clojure has the potential to really make inroads here, it would be HUGE if there would be JVM / CLR /Javascript versions
07:03	soyrochus	More or less equivalent, I mean
07:03	LauJensen	soyrochus: You could contribute it if you like. There's already gone a lot of work into CS. Secondarily, javascript/jquery can actually hold its own.
07:07	LauJensen	,(->> (re-find #"([a-z]+)([A-Z]+.*)" "camelCase") rest (map #(.toLowerCase %)) (interpose \-) (apply str))
07:07	clojurebot	"camel-case"
07:07	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: you can simplify that a bit if you like :)
07:07	LauJensen	Will only do one dash though
07:08	LauJensen	Here's a better version
07:08	LauJensen	http://gist.github.com/raw/462593/9a8e3ce957ce5282672a145d0ec20a9393fa009f/enhanced-record.clj
07:09	LauJensen	@ bsteuber
07:10	bsteuber	ah, thx
08:13	LauJensen	Does anybody here know how the authors of Ring make access to servlet-params available?
08:16	alienscience	A ring request should have a :servlet-request key (I've not used it though)
08:17	alienscience	Oh and a :servlet-context
08:17	alienscience	http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj#L51
08:19	LauJensen	It used to, before the 0.3+ split up
08:19	LauJensen	So I have some legacy ajax-upload-backend code which doesnt work anymore
08:36	pdk	,(/ 3840 2)
08:36	clojurebot	1920
08:38	cemerick	LauJensen: there's a compojure mailing list/gg I think
09:35	mefesto	is the convention of an asterik after a function name to signal that it's use is mainly to support a macro?
09:36	chouser	I think it's less specific. more just a vague alternate to the non-splat thing.
09:36	cemerick	That, or that it's a support fn, not intended to be called directly.
09:36	chouser	like a "prime" tick in math
09:37	mefesto	chouser: sorry, 'non-splat' thing?
09:37	chouser	the un-asterikated thing
09:39	pdk	i like that name though
09:39	pdk	this function ain't got no splat
09:40	Raynes	chouser: Mind if I PM you?
09:41	chouser	Raynes: go ahead
10:02	LauJensen	mefesto: yes
10:21	LauJensen	fogus_: how so ?
10:22	fogus_	Just that my following is a fraction of his. Not that I'm complaining, he's great for exposure.
10:22	kaiwren	fogus_: Uncle Bob's definitely got the Clojure bee in his bonnet.
10:22	fogus_	kaiwren: Indeed
10:22	LauJensen	fogus_: I think its because you never got that shell working on your site :(
10:23	fogus_	well, it works, but it's flakey. I've neglected it too long
10:24	fogus_	I'll redo it once CinC is targetting js
10:24	LauJensen	Yea - Would make for a fantastic interactive Clojure tutorial
10:24	fogus_	I was hoping a flood of contributions would come in when Gruber used it on his site (well, as a basis anyway), but nada
10:24	fogus_	oh well
10:24	LauJensen	Dont even know who Gruber is...
10:25	fogus_	The daring fireball guy
10:25	Plouj	in Listing 6 on http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp05236.html#2.0 what would be different if I threw a new InterruptedException instead of calling Thread.currentThread().interrupt();
10:26	kaiwren	I'm planning to build my personal site on compojure. That however helps nobody when it comes to exposure. :)
10:26	LauJensen	fogus_: Oh, Ive read some of his posts, but I think he's one of those internet phenoms I just dont get
10:27	LauJensen	kaiwren: Did I scare you away with my baking classes ?
10:27	technomancy	LauJensen: it's because you don't have a psychological need to justify spending large sums of money on fruit products.
10:27	technomancy	I think that's his target audience
10:28	LauJensen	technomancy: ?!
10:28	fogus_	technomancy: +1
10:34	LauJensen	fogus_: Also someone like Bob, how do you rate his following and where does he get his crowds from?
10:34	LauJensen	(to me he was unknown until he spoke up about Clojure)
10:35	tomoj	he's a ruby god
10:35	tomoj	and more I guess, from before I heard of him
10:36	fogus_	LauJensen: I think he's a big Agile/TDD guy. I don't know him from that however -- I think he did some pretty nice OOP essays a while back (I hope I'm not confusing him)
10:36	LauJensen	Ok. Its fun with some of these hackers who get such huge followings. I think Paulgraham.org takes 10 million hits per month
10:36	kaiwren	LauJensen: UncleBob is an XP guy, going back to the Agile Manifesto days
10:36	LauJensen	Ok
10:36	technomancy	but yeah, I did ruby/TDD for years and never heard of him either
10:37	kaiwren	He's big in the same circles as, say Martin Fowler
10:37	fogus_	Is he a ruby guy? I always thought he was Java/C++
10:37	LauJensen	I've heard he likes Ruby as well
10:38	kaiwren	fogus_: That lot were pretty much language agnostic. A lot of them have a SmallTalk background.
10:38	tomoj	he was at railsconf making everybody feel guilty about testing
10:38	LauJensen	technomancy: btw Phil, did you hear that I was able to boot a physical windows partition from inside Arch earlier today? :)
10:39	technomancy	LauJensen: I'm sorry to hear that.
10:40	bobo_	LauJensen: realy? how much work did it take? :-)
10:40	fogus_	I guess I've read/watched numerous things from him and am still not sure what he stands for. (shrugs)
10:40	LauJensen	bobo_: About 15 minutes
10:40	bobo_	i find it realy annoying to have 2 windows installs
10:40	LauJensen	technomancy: alright, I'll let you get back to MetaCity :)
10:40	bobo_	i would prefer 0
10:40	LauJensen	fogus_: Bob or Paul ? :)
10:40	fogus_	Bob
10:40	LauJensen	(take 8 (bob)) ? :)
10:41	LauJensen	@ fogus_
10:41	fogus_	LauJensen: I think his official role is gadfly :p
10:41	bobo_	imho, unclebob has written and done some of the best presentations about clean code ever
10:46	LauJensen	bobo_: I should check that out. I think my "Beautiful Code - The Manifesto" post was about the 3.rd or 4.th most flamed post I ever did - And thats saying something :)
10:46	bobo_	:-)
10:47	bobo_	dont think ive read your post
10:48	LauJensen	http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2009/11/beautiful-code-manifesto.html
10:51	bobo_	have to go to the train, il read it later!
10:51	LauJensen	alright
10:56	cemerick	man, how can HN scoop conference organizers on their own conference? ;-)
10:59	chouser	that's the week right after I will have been gone for half a week to Strange Loop
10:59	chouser	my family's not going to like it, but how can I not go? argh!
10:59	fogus_	chouser: If you're going, I'm going
11:00	cemerick	I have family down there, so it's an incredibly easy sell for me :-)
11:00	arohner	tomoj: I'm in austin
11:00	chouser	fogus_: can't fool me -- I know you're already going. :-)
11:00	fogus_	chouser: :-o
11:00	cemerick	Might actually be in NC / DC area sometime soon full time anyway
11:00	fogus_	cemerick: Let me know when you are. I'm in the DC area
11:01	cemerick	fogus_: Just a vague possibility at the moment. You'll be the first to know if it comes off though. :-)
11:02	Raynes	Aw. I wish I could afford to go. :(
11:03	Raynes	I'm in Alabama, so it isn't that far, but even not that far is too far to afford gas and lodgings.
11:04	pdk	ALABAMA MAN
11:04	Raynes	Poor Alabama man.
11:08	cemerick	is there a general term for "equal except for case" re: strings? That's a mouthful.
11:08	cemerick	s/general/better
11:08	pdk	case-insensitive
11:08	pdk	or case sensitive rather
11:09	Raynes	Well, shoot. Maybe I can work up enough for gas money. I can sleep in the car.
11:09	cemerick	"case-insensitively equal" isn't any better :-)
11:09	cemerick	oh well
11:09	chouser	Raynes: I bet if you ask around you could find someone else who'd want to split a hotel room or something.
11:10	Raynes	chouser: It'll be October, so the car wouldn't be that bad anyway. I'm young. I can handle it. ;)
11:10	chouser	:-)
11:11	chouser	hm. I've done that, come to think of it. I was young and it was still pretty miserable.
11:11	Raynes	That's assuming I can get enough gas money in two months to get there. I don't have a job. I'll go ahead and sign up, since I am reasonable serious about it.
11:13	tomoj	arohner: cool! think we have enough others here for a meetup?
11:13	arohner	tomoj: the last time I saw it, the google map had ~3-4 in austin. That was probably close to a year ago
11:14	arohner	there's also an FP group trying to get off the ground
11:14	tomoj	this one? http://groups.google.com/group/austin-fp
11:14	arohner	tomoj: yeah
11:19	Raynes	If I went, I'd be the youngest person there.
11:19	tomoj	cool, thanks
11:19	Raynes	To my amusement.
11:21	Raynes	Will registration cost anything?
11:29	chouser	I suppose next year will be (second clojure-conj). But what after that? (nth clojure-conj 2)?
11:29	liebke	exactly :)
11:29	Raynes	chouser: We'll have to add functions.
11:29	chouser	maybe it's a vector
11:29	chouser	(clojure-conj 2)
11:29	liebke	Raynes: we are trying to keep the registration fee low, but there will be one
11:29	Raynes	(twenty-first clojure-conj)
11:30	chouser	but still doesn't help the problem of second/2 being different
11:30	Raynes	liebke: I don't know what "low" is in context of registration fees for this sort of thing, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. Between gas money, food, and now this, it'll definitely be a close call.
11:36	Raynes	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/b57965fafc722697
11:38	Raynes	It kills me inside that this didn't make it in: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/315-add-support-for-running--main-namespace-from-clojure-main-without-aot
11:39	djpowell	gratz everyone on clojure 1.2!
11:39	Raynes	Ditto.
11:55	jcromartie	The link to "Clojure Contrib 1.2" on http://clojure.org/download is broken. It should point to http://github.com/downloads/clojure/clojure-contrib/clojure-contrib-1.2.0.zip
11:55	jcromartie	oops
11:55	jcromartie	http://clojure.org/downloads
11:55	jcromartie	speaking of broken links
12:05	Joreji	Hey guys, a Camera and a Ray both have a direction. With protocols, would you guys create two protocols ACamera and ARay which both have a dir method, or would you abstract the "having a direction" into yet another protocol? (e.g. ASomethingWithDirection)
12:05	arohner	Joreji: protocols (and their methods) are namespaced
12:06	arohner	I would create two different protocols
12:06	Joreji	Ah, right. Explains why I'm getting errors when trying to :use protocols from different namespaces, with same method names.
12:09	Joreji	So I'm better off writing a multimethod for dir instead of specifying it inside the protocol? If I use a protocol, then I get method-name clashes when trying to use two protocols in one namespace which share names for their methods.
12:19	arohner	Joreji: just use require rather than use
12:19	arohner	(camera/dir) (ray/dir)
12:22	Joreji	arohner: Well, I'd like to use "dir" in any case - no matter whether it is a camera or a ray.
12:22	arohner	ok, in that case you will need a multimethod
12:24	Joreji	Too bad. But thanks for clarifying that up!
12:27	cemerick	Wow, big day. :-)
12:30	danlarkin	cemerick: yarly
12:30	hiredman	ping?
12:30	clojurebot	PONG!
12:31	cemerick	danlarkin: Man, I'm so lame. Had to google that.
12:31	cemerick	I figured it was close to "yea, verily".
12:32	danlarkin	I love urban dictionary
12:41	hugod	clojars is feeling the strain
12:46	fogus_	http://fogus.me/static/preso/clj1.2+/
12:47	psykotic	chouser: hey. rayne asked me to email jcowan and ask him for ownership transfer for #clojure. could you privmsg me an email of yours i could cc?
12:47	chouser	psykotic: thanks. I wrote him earlier today.
12:47	chouser	dunno if the email address I have for him is good or not
12:49	Raynes	It's a small world.
12:49	psykotic	chouser: i have one i've used before, so i'll try that one.
12:50	chouser	psykotic: thanks!
12:51	Raynes	chouser: Isn't word of mouth awesome?
12:51	Raynes	Or word of keyboard.
12:52	chouser	could be -- we'll see how this turns out. :-)
12:53	Raynes	chouser: I have ownership of #clojure-casual now, so if you get ownership and do the whole group registration thing, let me know. I'm not sure what the significance of all that is.
12:54	chouser	I mostly just want someone somewhere to be able to update the /topic as needed.
12:54	Raynes	Yeah, I was thinking about that earlier.
12:54	psykotic	yeah, the whole situation is kind of ridiculous :)
12:55	psykotic	the whole 'race to see who registers the channel for project x' smells a bit like the domain name race
12:55	Raynes	I always wondered why it wasn't updated to point out that Clojure moved to github.com/clojure/clojure and stuff.
13:00	Raynes	chouser: An interesting side-effect of being a group is that you can apparently give people group hostmasks. Picture ~raynes@clojure/user/raynes
13:00	Raynes	;)
13:01	chouser	regarding "What is the reason Lisp code is not written with closing parenthesis on new lines?" gmail says "conversation could not be loaded"
13:01	chouser	probably just as well.
13:02	psykotic	haha
13:02	cemerick	The more we can bury those old battles, the better.
13:02	Raynes	chouser: Indeed. It's the entire Clojure community giving reasons and Greg Slepac or whatever his name is telling everyone they're wrong.
13:03	Raynes	It's like he believes that he has found some secret to Lisp readability that nobody over the past 50 years has noticed.
13:03	cemerick	Turn on paredit (or similar) in every editor mode and IDE plugin by default, problem solved. :-)
13:04	Raynes	cemerick: M-x show-paren-mode :D!
13:06	cemerick	Raynes: remember, I don't speak emacs ;-)
13:06	cemerick	but, sure
13:07	Raynes	cemerick: It's the mode (I think) that makes an opening paren highlight when your whatchamacallit is on a matching closing paren.
13:07	cemerick	ah
13:07	cemerick	I was meaning more the behaviour where closing parens are managed -- you simply can't put them on their own lines
13:07	cemerick	or, not without undue effort
13:08	cemerick	That's exactly how VS preserves newline-braces as the standard over there. shrug
13:10	fogus_	The whole problem with the paren-placement discussion is that people keep forgetting to type "for me" and "in my opinion"
13:12	Raynes	fogus_: But my opinion is the right one. :(
13:12	fogus_	as is mine
13:12	Raynes	fogus_: rhickey's, actually. :p
13:13	chouser	except where they diverge from mine.
13:13	Raynes	He speaks the truth.
13:15	jcromartie	mad props to everybody who got 1.2 out... I really wish I could have contributed but ASP.NET took over my life
13:16	Raynes	jcromartie: Is he watching you now? Does he know you're IRCing? s_s
13:16	itistoday	Raynes: you're a dick. :-)
13:16	Raynes	itistoday: You know I love you though. <3
13:18	itistoday	Raynes: sometimes... i have my doubts. ;-)
13:18	pdk	what's the meat of slepac's argument there
13:18	Raynes	pdk: He's right there, ask him. :p
13:18	pdk	heh
13:19	itistoday	pdk: http://gregslepak.posterous.com/on-lisps-readability
13:19	Raynes	^ Is the famous mister Slepak.
13:19	psykotic	famously wrong
13:21	itistoday	I think Raynes makes a superbly rational argument agains this Slepak character: "My eyes bleed when I see code written like that."
13:22	Raynes	I think I heard somebody mention that you probably expected Guy Steele to appear in front of you, shake your hand, and say "Congratulations son, you've done it."
13:23	slyrus	where does the "WARNING: spit already refers to: #'clojure.core/spit in namespace: clojure.contrib.io, being replaced by: #'clojure.contrib.io/spit" message I see every time I start lein come from?
13:23	Raynes	It was funny at the time.
13:25	chouser	It doesn't seem like a topic nearly worthy of the time.
13:26	chouser	my position is simple: write what you want. If you want any help from me, write in a way that's at least reasonably close to how I like it to look.
13:26	chouser	fortunately if you write it that way, there are lots of people who will be more willing to help.
13:26	chouser	the end.
13:26	Raynes	chouser: That's because it isn't. But people (like me) can't resist the urge to reply to long blog posts.
13:27	Raynes	That's my position. Get out of my position.
13:27	chouser	:-)
13:27	BrianForester	slyrus: I was just about to look up :use versus :require since I'm seeing similar warnings with: WARNING: repeat already refers to: #'clojure.core/repeat in namespace: proquest.pubConvert, being replaced by: #'clojure.contrib.string/repeat ...granted that is my code and not lein...
13:28	dnolen	clojurebot: use
13:28	clojurebot	use vs require is (:use [lib :only [a b c]) or (:require [lib :as alias]) -- (:use lib) is only for playing around
13:28	chouser	nice summary!
13:31	itistoday	chouser: there are good reasons for each style. i'm happy to help anyone out regardless of how they format their code.
13:31	chouser	itistoday: that's generous of you, thanks!
13:31	itistoday	seems silly to say to someone, "no, i won't help you because your code doesn't look like mine"
13:32	hiredman	I won't help you because you code looks like something a smurf barfed up
13:32	Raynes	I think the real issue, and the reason that you get lots of crap, is that most of us don't actually see the good reasons for the newline'd-paren style.
13:32	chouser	it's just a matter of how I choose to spend my time. If I'm already donating my time to help, I'd simply rather not spend it trying to see through some unusual formatting choices.
13:33	BrianForester	so :use brings functions into the current namespace? which explains the collisions I am (was) seeing.
13:33	chouser	Raynes: I don't think I'd put up much fuss if the "normal" way to format clojure was different. I like to integrate with the culture of the language I'm using.
13:33	itistoday	Raynes: i listed them in the post. and in principle giving someone crap for having a certain code style is a dick thing to do.
13:34	itistoday	Raynes: especially when they explain their rational for it. :-p
13:34	hiredman	BrianForester: it doesn't bring them in they still are in the namespace they were def'd in
13:34	hiredman	it just lets you refer to them without namespace qualifying
13:34	itistoday	Raynes: the other thing is that i've actually tried both styles. have you?
13:34	BrianForester	hiredman: K, thanks.
13:35	Raynes	Why would I? :\
13:35	itistoday	Raynes: exactly, you haven't.
13:35	Raynes	I've seen code written in both styles.
13:35	dnolen	sigh is this zombie paren discussion really going to be revived on IRC ?
13:35	cemerick	itistoday: don't mind hiredman, he's usually grumpy ;-)
13:35	itistoday	Raynes: Your entire argument is, "i don't like your style because it's different from mine"
13:35	Raynes	But seriously, why would I? ._.
13:35	hiredman	cemerick: how dare you!
13:35	itistoday	Raynes: and you then jump on people for even considering using a different style
13:36	cemerick	hiredman: pistols at dawn?
13:36	cemerick	or is it usually at noon?
13:36	itistoday	Raynes: your so wrapped up in your own world-view, and closed to others, that you continue to ask, "why would I?" as well
13:36	Raynes	itistoday: No, my entire argument is that "I don't like your style because it's inconsistent with what everyone else does and has done for many years, and your arguments don't make sense to me."
13:36	Raynes	It's really simple.
13:36	hiredman	I have a day job so it will have to be at dusk
13:36	cemerick	I agree with dnolen, it'd be nice if all parties involved in any kind of code style issue would walk away and agree to disagree. :-\|
13:36	hiredman	maybe noon will work if I can squeeze it into my lunch break
13:37	cemerick	hiredman: screw it, let's just get a beer then. :-P
13:37	itistoday	cemerick: i would, but Raynes jumps out from nowhere and attacks me.
13:37	hiredman	:P
13:37	Raynes	itistoday: Plus, I never jumped on you. I'm willing to totally let bygones be bygones, because I honestly don't care what your code looks like unless I have to read it. We've already agreed to disagree, so let's not fill up this channel with more garbage than necessary.
13:38	itistoday	Raynes: great! :-)
13:38	itistoday	Raynes: (P.S. Never forced you to read it)
13:38	Raynes	You most certainly did not.
13:43	Raynes	:p
13:45	Raynes	raek: I was "there when it happened"
13:45	Raynes	;D!!
13:46	raek	congratulations, everyone!
13:48	slyrus	it's a little too early on this coast, or I'd suggest a toast to the responsible parties
13:56	tomoj	woohoo
13:57	fliebel	Congratulations with Clojure 1.2!
13:59	jcromartie	one of the most impressive things about Clojure as a project is how solid it has been
13:59	jcromartie	it's built like a tank
14:00	rhudson	but a lot more maneuverable!
14:02	jcromartie	Ruby has "releases" that are "sort of" supported on anything but certain versions of Ubuntu...
14:02	jcromartie	and they call them releases
14:02	jcromartie	not RC
14:08	pdk	would certain versions include 10.04
14:08	pdk	also itd be nice if we stuck little "clojure x.y is out now" notices in the topic
14:14	jcromartie	pdk: http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/367983
14:14	Raynes	pdk: We can't.
14:15	pdk	it is FROZEN IN TIMEEEEEEE
14:15	Raynes	pdk: chouser is awaiting the response of the creator of this channel. Requesting a transfer of ownership or ops.
14:15	pdk	and it's not rhickey
14:16	rhudson	Owner is named Godot, I take it
14:16	chouser	Exactly. He'll be here any moment, I'm certain.
14:16	Raynes	Nope.
14:16	Raynes	jcowens, actually.
14:17	rhudson	It was a joke, Raynes. Here, have some parens
14:17	Raynes	chouser: You got a response? Goodie.
14:17	Raynes	rhudson: I didn't get it. :(
14:17	chouser	I really wonder how many people will come to clojure-conj. I wonder if they'll be outnumbered by the speakers.
14:17	cemerick	Raynes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot
14:17	cemerick	one of my favorites
14:17	chouser	I guess that'd be ok -- we can all go to each others talks and have a grand old time.
14:18	cemerick	we should start a pool
14:18	fliebel	What is clojure-conj?
14:18	Raynes	fliebel: first.clojure-conj.org
14:19	pdk	no relation to phoenix wright
14:19	rhudson	It's a very clever name
14:19	cemerick	For my part, I promise a set of 100% maven talks. ;-)
14:20	Raynes	clojure-conf would have been more obvious, but less clever.
14:20	fliebel	Raynes: That is in the US is suppose?
14:20	Raynes	fliebel: North Carolina, US of A.
14:20	Raynes	cemerick: I promise to not be there to see them. :p
14:20	Bjering	Unit-testing agents, I assume this is one of the good places to use the await function?
14:20	fliebel	Raynes: If it was in Europe, I'd love to come :(
14:21	cemerick	Raynes: it'll just be me, SS, and about 85 rabid Java devs.
14:21	Raynes	Naw, I'd love to be there.
14:21	Raynes	Doubtful I'll be able to fund the trip though.
14:22	cemerick	Raynes: are you still in school?
14:22	raek	what fliebel and Raynes said
14:22	Raynes	cemerick: If I came, I'd walk up and give you a big hug.
14:22	chouser	Bjering: possibly. the function you send to the agent though is best when its a pure function and then can be tested without anything as clever as await.
14:22	Raynes	cemerick: Yes, but I'm home schooled. Which is why I'm here all the time.
14:22	cemerick	Raynes: OK, but I'm not joining you and itistoday! :-P
14:22	Raynes	:p
14:23	fliebel	Raynes: same for me, well… almost homeshool
14:23	Raynes	Well, most of the time. More like why I occasionally sleep during the day and am active at night.
14:23	Raynes	I have no social life.
14:23	cemerick	Raynes: you should take up a collection or something
14:24	Raynes	A collection?
14:24	Bjering	Chouser: https://gist.github.com/6590b4fd7423d10781a7 , perhaps too trivial to really prove anything, but its the start of my rewrite of yesterdays failed chat-server.
14:24	fliebel	Raynes: And social life :) But I know it's harder wehn doing homeschooling
14:24	cemerick	Raynes: get donations to pay your way, etc
14:24	Raynes	fliebel: Not really. It's living in the middle of nowhere with nowhere to go. ;)
14:24	Raynes	cemerick: People don't like me that much. :p
14:24	Bjering	Chouser, its more a unit-testing my understanding of agents and await are correct :)
14:25	fliebel	Raynes: where is your nowhere?
14:25	Raynes	Alabama.
14:25	fliebel	opens google maps
14:25	Raynes	If anywhere was a nowhere, it's there.
14:25	Raynes	Eldridge, Alabama to be specific.
14:25	arkh	South
14:25	Raynes	Aproximately 550 miles from the location of the conference.
14:25	arkh	*Dakota may give you a run for your money on nowhere
14:25	Raynes	9 hours and 41 minutes away.
14:27	cemerick	Eldridge, AL: "At the 2000 census the population was 184."
14:27	cemerick	Raynes: holy crap!
14:27	Raynes	Yessir.
14:28	Raynes	And people have died since then. ;)
14:28	fogus_	Raynes: At least you're the best Clojure programmer in your town.
14:28	metagov	Is lazy-cons a real macro? I see it in the cheat sheet and it's listed on the macros section but I can't find any description of it.
14:28	cemerick	I support home-schooling must be the only option there.
14:28	Raynes	fogus_: I'm the best Clojure programmer in 100 miles in either direction, at the very least.
14:28	fliebel	fogus_: That is probably true for me as well
14:29	Raynes	cemerick: Actually no. The Carbon Hill High School sends buses out here, apparently.
14:29	Raynes	I've just always been home schooled. I saw no reason to go to a public school when I have more time for coding if I'm home schooled.
14:29	fliebel	Raynes: But they don't teach Clojure in.. yea, that is what I mean
14:29	Raynes	Clojure trumps a social life. I don't really like teenagers. ._>
14:30	Raynes	I feel I can learn more on my own regardless.
14:30	danlarkin	nobody does :)
14:30	jcromartie	hah
14:30	edbond	what is the function for (first (remove nil? <coll>)) ?
14:30	chouser	metagov: lazy-cons is old
14:30	chouser	metagov: It's superceded by lazy-seq
14:31	cemerick	edbond: I think you just wrote it. :-)
14:31	Raynes	edbond: Eh, (first (remove nil? coll)) ought to do it. ._. I'm not sure there is an actual function for that.
14:31	metagov	chouser: thanks
14:32	edbond	cool, thanks
14:32	Raynes	I tend to do (filter identity coll) when I know that it's safe to get rid of false values, 'cause I'm a maverick.
14:32	edbond	isn't better to write (drop-while nil? ...) or something?
14:33	edbond	or its equivalent since laziness?
14:33	raek	filter is lazy too
14:33	raek	it wont continue unless you force it too
14:34	cemerick	edbond: very roughly, everything seq-related is lazy except for reduce
14:34	Raynes	Remove is as well, I imagine. I assume it uses filter and complement's the predicate.
14:34	rhudson	I just noticed (range) in the release notes, as a replacement for (iterate inc 0). A tiny but very convenient improvement
14:34	Raynes	complements*
14:35	Raynes	Did I mention that complement is an awesome function with a confusing name? It is.
14:36	tomoj	rhudson: whoa, yes.
14:36	Raynes	->((complement true?) true)
14:36	sexpbot	=> false
14:36	cemerick	tomoj, rhudson: range has been around nearly forever
14:36	Raynes	Whoa, I didn't see that.
14:36	tomoj	cemerick: nullary range too?
14:36	rhudson	Yes, but the nullary is new
14:36	raek	the function-generating-functions are easy to overlook
14:36	Raynes	Nullary is new.
14:37	cemerick	ah, I didn't catch that, sorry
14:37	fliebel	raek: what are they?
14:37	tomoj	I always felt a bit irked when writing (iterate inc 0)
14:37	Raynes	tomoj: Likewise.
14:37	raek	juxt, comp, complement, etc
14:37	cemerick	I never internalized that, so I always used (range Integer/MAX_VALUE) blush
14:38	Raynes	cemerick: That's adorable.
14:38	chouser	hm -- (range) is chunked, (iterate inc 0) is not
14:38	fliebel	raek: ah, of course. It's realy time for me to write loads of Clojure again.
14:38	Raynes	The code, not the blush.
14:38	rhudson	I really wish complement and identity had shorter names. 'non and 'stet maybe
14:38	raek	the functional programming chapter of Joy of Clojure is very good
14:38	cemerick	Puppies have nothing on me.
14:40	pdk	what do you mean by chunked, is this some difference in the way its results are cached
14:40	jcromartie	pdk: yes, chunked seqs calculate the sequence in "chunks" instead of one at at ime
14:40	tomoj	stet?
14:40	tomoj	why not 'id?
14:41	tomoj	er, really my question is what the heck is 'stet
14:41	jcromartie	tomoj: it's "tets" backwards
14:41	jcromartie	of course
14:42	rhudson	stet means "let it stand" -- it's an editing thing that means leave it the way it is
14:42	tomoj	latin?
14:42	rhudson	latin
14:42	Raynes	rhudson: I'm surprised "identity" isn't 'id'.
14:42	rhudson	"id" is just such a useful name for identifier
14:43	tomoj	oh, wow, I didn't even see that, haskell has poisoned my brain
14:44	fliebel	What is the use of a function the just returns its argmuent>?
14:44	tomoj	(take-while identity coll) is one example I remember
14:44	rhudson	But my real point is 'identity has too many convenient uses in filters etc. to have a long name
14:44	pdk	use it in iterate, repeat(edly) etc
14:44	tomoj	yes, I also was always a bit irked by its length
14:44	pdk	comp
14:44	Raynes	fliebel: For stuff like (filter identity [false nil true 2 1 "blah"])
14:44	Raynes	-> (filter identity [false nil true 2 1 "blah"])
14:44	sexpbot	=> (true 2 1 "blah")
14:45	Raynes	fliebel: There are times where you need to pass a function to another function, but you really just want that function to return it's argument.
14:46	fliebel	I see...
14:46	tomoj	pdk: (comp identity f) ?
14:47	pdk	it could be a last ditch utility :p
14:47	pdk	think of it as
14:47	pdk	you'd use it that way in a macguyver sort of situation
15:01	chouser	also filter
15:02	chouser	someone was just asking for that
15:04	technomancy	well, I guess the feature freeze is over
15:04	chouser	right! check it in!
15:04	technomancy	I have a big list
15:05	pdk	we'll have clojure 1.3 before sunset
15:05	pdk	all thanks to techno over here
15:05	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/1.3-hopes-and-dreams.html
15:05	tomoj	if I have to pick one, strange loop or clojure-conj? :/
15:07	rhudson	what's ":like in ns macro", technomancy?
15:07	technomancy	rhudson: from nstools
15:07	technomancy	clojurebot: google nstools clojure
15:07	pdk	what would a 1 arg version of filter or remove do
15:07	clojurebot	First, out of 12 results is:
15:07	clojurebot	Managing namespaces « On Clojure
15:07	clojurebot	http://onclojure.com/2010/02/17/managing-namespaces/
15:07	chouser	tomoj: I would have picked clojure-conj, had I only known it was an option.
15:08	tomoj	.. aren't you a speaker?
15:08	technomancy	rhudson: basically having a base namespace so you can easily create others with the same use/require clauses
15:09	rhudson	ah. looking at the link; sounds cool and useful
15:09	technomancy	one of the few things that can't be done well in an external library, though that's what he's tried
15:16	chouser	tomoj: yeah, but they're only a week apart -- that's a lot of travel for me.
15:19	holoway	do any of you vim users have trouble with vimclojure's rainbowparens mode on the mac? I can't seem to actually turn it on.
15:21	naeu	Happy 1.2 day everyone
15:21	tomoj	chouser: oh, so grudgingly going to both?
15:22	fliebel	holoway: I had them working ages ago, but it's realy to long ago since I've written Clojure
15:22	chouser	tomoj: grudgingly sounds meaner than I'd like, but yes going to both.
15:22	holoway	yeah, everything else seems to work, but as far as I can tell 'let g:vimclojure#RainbowParens=1' has no impact at all
15:22	holoway	I'll dig further
15:23	chouser	I'm sure both will be fun
15:25	naeu	I'm struggling with a basic problem - how to generate a lazy sequence of [int square-of-int] pairs for all ints
15:27	raek	(for [x (iterate inc 0)] [x (* x x)])
15:27	chouser	raek: range
15:27	raek	,(take 3 (range))
15:27	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
15:27	hiredman	,(take 10 (map (juxt identity #(* % %)) (iterate inc 0))))
15:27	clojurebot	([0 0] [1 1] [2 4] [3 9] [4 16] [5 25] [6 36] [7 49] [8 64] [9 81])
15:27	raek	I see...
15:28	naeu	I was wondering why #([%1 (* %1 %1)]) doesn't work
15:28	hiredman	,(take 10 (map (juxt identity #(* % %)) (range))))
15:28	clojurebot	([0 0] [1 1] [2 4] [3 9] [4 16] [5 25] [6 36] [7 49] [8 64] [9 81])
15:28	hiredman	naeu: macroexpand it
15:28	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '#([%1 (* %1 %1)]))
15:28	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__503246#] ([p1__503246# (* p1__503246# p1__503246#)]))
15:28	naeu	hiredman: can you macroexpand anonymous functions?
15:28	raek	naeu: that expands to (fn [%1] ([%1 (* %1 %1)])) and not (fn [%1] [%1 (* %1 %1)])
15:28	hiredman	look at the parens
15:28	pdelgallego	Have clojure anykind of interpolation string? Maybe place holders where introduce data into a string.? Ie "my name is %s" % name
15:29	raek	#(vector ...) works
15:29	hiredman	,(doc format)
15:29	clojurebot	"([fmt & args]); Formats a string using java.lang.String.format, see java.util.Formatter for format string syntax"
15:29	tomoj	-> '#([% (* % %)])
15:29	sexpbot	=> (fn* [p1__3661#] ([p1__3661# (* p1__3661# p1__3661#)]))
15:29	pdelgallego	thank hiredman
15:29	hiredman	danlarkin: thats two
15:31	naeu	hiredman: thanks for the help
15:33	danlarkin	hiredman: you're a crowd favorite
15:33	hiredman	danlarkin: thats three
15:34	Bjering	I find no def- corresponding to defn-, how do I def a private var? And is there a reason that def- isnt provided (ie is private vars a bad idea?)
15:35	technomancy	Bjering: no reason; it's a very strange omission
15:35	hiredman	well, in 1.3 you will just be able to use ^:private
15:35	wwmorgan	clojure.contrib.def has def-, iirc
15:35	technomancy	that's nine too many chars, hiredman
15:35	hiredman	(jeeze, 1.2 just landed)
15:36	chouser	wwmorgan: I think that's called defvar-
15:36	hiredman	ugh
15:36	technomancy	hiredman: http://jordi.platinum.linux.pl/piccies/unacceptable.png
15:36	hiredman	I am pretty ok with ^{:private true}
15:36	hiredman	for that matter
15:36	Raynes	chouser: And defvar- isn't the same as what def- would be.
15:37	Raynes	^{:private true} is what I do.
15:37	danlarkin	technomancy: http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2009/donkey-balls2.gif
15:37	hiredman	point refuted
15:38	naeu	I was just perusing fogus's 1.2 slides and came across the following snippet. Could anyone enlighten me as to how this actually works? (let [{first-thing 0, last-thing 3} '[a b c d]]
15:38	naeu	[first-thing last-thing])
15:38	chouser	that's not actually new
15:38	technomancy	danlarkin: tell it to the bot, man.
15:39	lenw	hi all
15:39	Raynes	$learn donkey-balls http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2009/donkey-balls2.gif
15:39	sexpbot	My memory is more powerful than M-x butterfly. I wont forget it.
15:39	Raynes	;)
15:39	tomoj	naeu: do you understand (let [{foo :f, bar :b} {:f 1 :b 2}] [foo bar]) ?
15:40	chouser	(let [{a 0, b 3} ...]) will use get to look up values for a and b using the keys 0 and 3
15:40	chouser	and get works fine on vectors.
15:40	chouser	,(get '[a b c d] 3)
15:40	clojurebot	d
15:40	naeu	tomoj: I can see how it works, but I don't understand it.
15:40	tomoj	oh
15:40	tomoj	maybe chouser will explain it to you :)
15:41	chouser	hmph. thought I just did.
15:41	tomoj	I suppose so
15:41	tomoj	are the bot wars over?
15:42	lenw	simple question : whats the best way to poll an email folder every x minutes ?
15:42	tcrayford	use loop with Thread/sleep maybe?
15:42	lenw	yeah thats what i am doing now :)
15:43	chouser	what do you do with the results? could use repeatdly on a fn that polls and sleeps
15:43	naeu	I guess the thing I have to get out of my head is that the first map in the let statement isn't assigning a value to a map, but is really rather a fancy syntactic sugar description of the destructuring of the elements within it such that the let binds stuff to the symbols inside it based on the right hand side structure
15:43	chouser	naeu: sounds like you've got it :-)
15:43	naeu	it's really rather fancy :-)
15:43	lenw	i process the results chouser
15:44	fogus_	chouser: I tried to reword that so it's clear that assoc-destr is not new, but instead kwargs are. I guess it's still confusing :(
15:44	lenw	send them off to another system after digesting them a bit :)
15:45	naeu	ok, so how does this work then: (defn a-fn [& {fname :first, lname :last}]
15:45	naeu	[fname lname])
15:46	tcrayford	fogus: who should I talk to about speaking at the clojure conj?
15:46	Bjering	In the process of trying to write something in clojure am looking for good ways to stucture and encapsulate especially any access to stateful java-objects. Here is my start at my current attempt https://gist.github.com/06a497d95eb946ed5b62 it expose me a create method and a write method, the fact that these are delagated to agents I view as an implementation detail. Is this a reasonable approach to clojure application development?
15:48	hiredman	Bjering: are the java objects not thread safe?
15:48	Bjering	hiredman: Its more that they are not pure.
15:48	Bjering	ie their methods have side effects
15:49	Bjering	like sending something on a socket...
15:51	Bjering	yesterdays attempt was a failure with incorrect use of refs. Agents seems like a conceptually nice fit. Will see when I get further if the implementation looks good. What I am thinking now is just that I should ask so I dont miss any abvois pattern/style-guides I should follow.
15:52	naeu	in the case of the varags fn does the let binding happen in the reverse formation as it appears in the definition? i.e. does [& {fname :first, lname :last}] gets turned into the equivalent of (let {fname :first, lname :last} {arg1 arg2 arg3 arg4}])
15:52	chouser	Bjering: you really want pods
15:53	fogus_	tcrayford: Did you see Stuart's post on the Google Group?
15:53	Bjering	For example, I can see myself using the idiom with a public function encapsulating the send to an agent with a private pure function over and over again. Is this something common, if so is there an accepted name-conventions I should use, like one used to use foo-iter inside foo in scheme. ?
15:53	AWizzArd	chouser: I didn’t follow that discussion, but: are Cells now called Pods?
15:53	chouser	AWizzArd: yes
15:53	AWizzArd	k
15:56	Bjering	Are these pods something I can use for production code now? (1.2) Or something that will come later?
15:57	naeu	Bjering: pods are still in the design stage
15:57	Bjering	lol... google clojure pods gave me this irc log 3 min ago....
15:57	ordnungswidrig	chouser: just joined the discussion, do you have a pointer about pods and pods with non-pure java objects?
15:57	ordnungswidrig	Bjering: that happened to me yesterday :)
15:58	Bjering	So, until then, is this agent as monitor approach accepted wisdom or is it a bad idea?
15:58	edbond	why clutch :map function returns vector of vector?
16:01	chouser	ordnungswidrig: not really. I don't know if any code is available either.
16:01	chouser	clojurebot: cells?
16:01	clojurebot	cells is http://gist.github.com/306174
16:01	chouser	oh look -- code!
16:02	chouser	as what?
16:03	slyrus	#(vector ...)
16:03	chouser	ah
16:03	raek	Bjering: interesting question
16:04	slyrus	I've made the same mistake of expecting that to work dozens of times...
16:04	chouser	Bjering: it's certainly been done before. agents are idetities, which matches with the mutable java object they hold
16:05	chouser	though of course nothing but convention prevents someone for deref'ing the agent and doing any unprotected thing they want.
16:05	raek	I think that the pure function part should always be defined explicitly
16:06	raek	that the function that is sent to the agent should have it's own (maybe private) name
16:06	raek	at least that makes testing much more simpler, in my experience
16:07	tcrayford	fogus: should I just respond there?
16:07	Bjering	raek: Only that in my case the "pure" function is distincly un-pure in that it is its side-effect I am after.
16:08	raek	hrm, I see
16:08	Bjering	raek: My do-write: https://gist.github.com/06a497d95eb946ed5b62
16:12	edbond	is it true clutch view server doesn't run clojure code but translate it to some js?
16:13	arohner	does anyone else find themselves doing (if foo (f bar) bar) a lot? It feels like there should be an idiom for it
16:14	raek	btw, is there a name for the "splitting into a pure and none-pure part" way of doing things I keep thinking about?
16:14	slyrus	yay. (map #(names [(:top %) (:bottom %)]) (vals (configurations (smiles-test/get-molecule "Z-1,2-difluoroethane")))) works :)
16:16	tcrayford	arohner: I've done a tonne of that recently, have been pondering
16:17	arohner	(maybe foo f bar)?
16:18	tcrayford	that'd confuse me (seeing as I use the maybe monad in places)
16:19	tcrayford	(only pred f obj)?
16:21	arohner	tcrayford: what does only signify to you?
16:21	rhudson	(apply-if foo f bar) ?
16:22	tcrayford	rhudson: nice
16:22	arohner	rhudson: I like that
16:22	edbond	why :reduce works in futon, but not in code? http://gist.github.com/538819
16:22	tcrayford	arohner: I don't like only, was just trying to get the wheels turning
16:23	tcrayford	apply-if seems to signify some use of "apply" though
16:24	arohner	tcrayford: so apply it :-) [test f arg & args] `(if test (apply f arg args) arg)
16:25	tcrayford	arohner: that doesn't need to be a macro
16:25	arohner	ah, right
16:26	tcrayford	and its tricky working out if pred is run against arg or args
16:26	arohner	IMO, don't run it against anything. pred could be something that isn't a function of arg
16:27	tcrayford	so (apply-if (zero? 0) inc 0) ?
16:28	tcrayford	instead of (apply-if zero? inc 0) ?
16:28	edbond	got it: futon automatically add group=true
16:29	rhudson	(apply-if paranoid check whatever)
16:30	tcrayford	that's not bad I guess. My use case is usually that the predicate is always run against the same argument (hence wanted to eliminate duplication there)
16:31	arohner	tcrayford: the code I'm looking at right here isn't a function of arg, so if apply-if doesn't support it, I'll need another function :-)
16:31	slyrus	now I have no excuse not to begin writing the 2d molecule layout routine
16:31	tcrayford	arohner: fair does then.
17:30	wtetzner	,(let [x "fred"] (fn [] x))
17:30	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval503264$fn__503265 sandbox$eval503264$fn__503265@92495f>
17:30	wtetzner	,(.x (let [x "fred"] (fn [] x)))
17:30	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: x for class sandbox$eval503268$fn__503269
17:32	slyrus	hmm... nested maps are kind of a pain to work with. I'm probably missing something though.
17:32	raek	slyrus: get-in, assoc-in, update-in :)
17:32	wtetzner	,(map #(.getName %) (.getFields (class (let [x "fred" coolness ['x]] (fn [] [x coolness])))))
17:32	clojurebot	("__methodImplCache")
17:33	slyrus	oh, thanks raek!
17:33	wtetzner	(.__methodImplCache (class (let [x "fred" coolness ['x]] (fn [] [x coolness])))
17:33	wtetzner	,(.__methodImplCache (class (let [x "fred" coolness ['x]] (fn [] [x coolness])))
17:33	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:34	wtetzner	,(.__methodImplCache (let [x "fred" coolness ['x]] (fn [] [x coolness]))
17:34	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:38	slyrus	raek: wow. not sure how I got by without those :)
18:48	psykotic	chouser: looks like we got the ownership issue resolved.
18:50	bmh	Does anyone have strong feelings about the testing frameworks available for clojure? I would prefer to use something similar to QuickCheck
18:52	SirNick	I am using Leiningen along with a few java-only jars (not written by me). What's the preferred way of handling such a situation since the jars will likely never be provided on Clojars or anything similar?
18:56	tcrayford	bmh: look at clojurecheck
18:56	tcrayford	SirNick: you can install those jars into your local mvn repo, or add another mvn server for lein to pull from
18:57	slyrus	d'oh... the other bracket/brace related bug I always make is that I expect (key {3 4}) to be 3
18:57	slyrus	how do I make a single map entry like that?
18:57	tcrayford	single map entries can be made by vectors
18:57	tcrayford	,(key [3 4])
18:57	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
18:57	SirNick	tcrayford: I can't say I really know anything about using mvn... How can I add to my local repo?
18:58	slyrus	tcrayford: oh?
18:58	slyrus	,(key (first {3 4}))
18:58	clojurebot	3
18:58	slyrus	that seems ... silly
18:58	tcrayford	,(vector? (first {3 4}))
18:58	clojurebot	true
18:59	wwmorgan	,(key (find {3 4} 3))
18:59	clojurebot	3
18:59	slyrus	,(class (first {3 4}))
18:59	clojurebot	clojure.lang.MapEntry
18:59	slyrus	,(class [3 4])
18:59	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
18:59	slyrus	wjat
18:59	slyrus	what's the handy literal syntax for a MapEntry?
18:59	tcrayford	slyrus: vectors implement clojure.lang.mapentry, but not java.lang.mapentry (for the looks of it)
19:00	slyrus	grumble
19:00	hiredman	huh?
19:00	wwmorgan	,(key (clojure.lang.MapEntry. 3 4))
19:00	clojurebot	3
19:00	tcrayford	(I'm guessing here, hiredman probably actually knows)
19:00	hiredman	,(ancestors (class [1 2]))
19:00	clojurebot	#{java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.IPersistentVector java.lang.Comparable clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.Sequential java.util.RandomAccess clojure.lang.Seqable clojure.lang.IFn java.util.Collection clojure.lang.Reversible clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.Associative java.lang.Object clojure.lang.IPersistentStack java.util.List java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.Indexed clojure.lang.IEditableColle
19:01	hiredman	,((ancestors (class [1 2])) java.util.MapEntry)
19:01	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.MapEntry
19:01	hiredman	,((ancestors (class [1 2])) java.util.Map$MapEntry)
19:01	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.Map$MapEntry
19:01	tcrayford	its Map$Entry
19:01	hiredman	,((ancestors (class [1 2])) java.util.Map$Entry)
19:01	clojurebot	nil
19:02	hiredman	no kidding
19:02	tcrayford	hence:
19:02	tcrayford	,(key [1 2])
19:02	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
19:03	wwmorgan	however, in many situations you can use a vector like a map entry: (reduce conj {} [[1 2] [3 4]]) => {3 4, 1 2}
19:04	tcrayford	yeah, just kinda funny that it doesn't work for key
19:09	__debaser	Hi
19:09	__debaser	what is the best way to start a clojure 1.2 repl with clojure contrib?
19:09	__debaser	mvn clojure:repl does not start jline
19:10	arete	IIRC you have to add jline as a dependency and then it will
19:10	__debaser	is java -cp /Users/philipp/Clojure/jline-0.9.5/jline-0_9_5.jar:/Users/philipp/Clojure/clojure-1.2.0/clojure.jar:/Users/philipp/Clojure/clojure-contrib-1.2.0/target/clojure-contrib.jar jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.main
19:10	__debaser	deprecated?
19:11	__debaser	this no longer loads contrib
19:12	__debaser	or what is the best way for starting a repl?
19:13	wwmorgan	__debaser: if you use leiningen then "lein repl" will give you a repl with jline
19:20	slyrus	yay. _now_ we have all of the relative positioning info for complex branched molecules with double bonds.
19:22	bobbytek	so clojure
19:22	bobbytek	why use it over scheme?
19:25	hiredman	bobbytek: can you please go bother everyone in the irc channels of the 64 thousand other langauges you have mentioned and ask them why you should use their language over clojure
19:25	wwmorgan	bobbytek: someone asked that same question yesterday http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-08-18.html#21:07
19:27	bobbytek	hiredman: no
19:27	bobbytek	But seriously
19:27	bobbytek	I'm floundering around trying to understand where FP fits in
19:27	bobbytek	Any what differentiates all these lisps
19:28	bobbytek	and non-lisps (OCaml, ML, F#)
19:28	bobbytek	It's all very confusing. Some basic context might help
19:28	wwmorgan	http://clojure.org/lisps comparison of CL, Scheme, and Clojure
19:28	bobbytek	thanks my good man
19:32	__debaser	what does my project.clj have to look like?
19:32	__debaser	(defproject interactive "0.1"
19:32	__debaser	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure
19:32	__debaser	"1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]
19:32	__debaser	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib
19:32	__debaser	"1.0-SNAPSHOT"]]
19:32	__debaser	:main interactive)
19:40	alienscience	debaser: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
19:48	defn	bobbytek: id be interested to know what you think after reading that
19:50	slyrus	,(filter (comp #{:low} :bogosity) [{:name "moose" :bogosity :low} {:name "ape" :bogosity :high}])
19:50	clojurebot	({:name "moose", :bogosity :low})
19:52	slyrus	or for a more useful example: (map (comp names atoms) (filter (comp #{2} :order) (bonds (smiles-test/get-molecule "tamoxifen"))))
20:21	technomancy	clojurebot: comments is http://www.cc.gatech.edu/computing/classes/cs2360/ghall/style/commenting.html
20:21	clojurebot	Alles klar
20:25	birdspider	hi, I'm new to clojure and wondering if anyone can tell me how to pass a seq of values to a function as arguments
20:26	technomancy	,(apply + [1 23 4])
20:26	clojurebot	28
20:26	technomancy	birdspider: try apply ^
20:27	birdspider	technomancy: i.e (apply ^ ["1st" "2nd"]) ??
20:27	technomancy	birdspider: sorry; I mean ^ as in "look at the line above this one" =) just (apply myfunction mysequence)
20:33	birdspider	technomancy: oh my, I thought of everything but applying thisway round :)
20:34	technomancy	birdspider: you can pull them apart in the function as well using destructuring, but that's harder to demonstrate since clojurebot doesn't allow defn
20:35	birdspider	technomancy: thx, I would have another question, if you like, I do see something like this often lately '`(list ~@(seq "a" "b"))' whats up with this
20:35	technomancy	,((fn [[a b c]] (println "a" a "b" b "c" c)) [1 2 3])
20:35	clojurebot	a 1 b 2 c 3
20:35	birdspider	technomancy: well yes thats like pattern matching in haskel :)
20:35	birdspider	technomancy, but in my case I have varable args length
20:36	birdspider	technomancy, that was my problem
20:36	technomancy	,((fn [a b & c] (println "a" a "b" b "c" c)) 1 2 3 4 5 6)
20:36	clojurebot	a 1 b 2 c (3 4 5 6)
20:36	birdspider	technomancy, so I still would have a seq to pass as args in the end :)
20:38	birdspider	technomancy, anyway apply solved it prefectly, any idea or good source where I could read up this ` ~@ stuff ?
20:39	technomancy	birdspider: it's called unquote-splice; it's generally used in macros
20:44	birdspider	technomancy: thx for the help, much appreciated, bye
21:27	chouser	psykotic: transfer's done. thanks for your help.
23:26	spewn	Is it possible to add a docstring with defrecord?
23:40	cemerick	chouser: I'm only 15 minutes into looking at this, but it's damn promising so far: http://djproject.sourceforge.net/ns/index.html
23:41	cemerick	native components involved, but that's almost a good thing
23:43	wooby	that does look awesome
23:47	patrickdlogan	spewn: does not appear so
23:47	patrickdlogan	,(doc defrecord)
23:47	clojurebot	"([name [& fields] & opts+specs]); Alpha - subject to change (defrecord name [fields] options specs) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of a protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [args] body)* Dynamically generates compiled bytecode for class with the given name, in a package with the same name as the current namespace, the given f
23:50	spewn	patrickdlogan: I suppose my question was poorly worded. I know it's possible to add a docstring with ^{:doc "foo"}, but is it possible to view it?
23:56	pdk	call doc with the record you defined as the argument spewn?
23:58	spewn	pdk: "Expecting var, but Foo is mapped to class user.Foo"