#clojure – 2010-08-11

2010-08-11

00:00	Scriptor	that's good
00:00	Raynes	git add RE<tab> LI<tab> test/ src/
00:00	Raynes	;)
00:00	Scriptor	now, continue to follow the directions, so commit
00:00	Scriptor	Give it a message explaining what you changed
00:03	ataggart	finally
00:05	ataggart	the benefit of 4 steps vs 1 is lost on me, but oh well.
00:05	ataggart	at least it's uploaded
00:05	Scriptor	ataggart: the benefits become clearer when you're dealing with a ton of code and numerous changes :)
00:06	ataggart	given that I'd then be constrained to the output from a console, I have a hard time imagining that.
00:07	ataggart	I'll care more about git once someone makes a fully functional ui
00:07	Scriptor	there are UI's, but consoles aren't constraining
00:07	Scriptor	most people use them anyway
00:08	technomancy	eh; I hate using git without magit.
00:09	Scriptor	nub :p
00:10	ataggart	^ another reason I'm loath to deal with git
00:10	Scriptor	have you used other version control systems?
00:10	ataggart	yes
00:10	rlb	ataggart: the index is an extra level of complexity, but it can be handy -- think of it as a staging area.
00:11	rlb	"git add FILE" merges whatever's in a file into the index (so the index contains the current state of that file at that point).
00:11	rlb	If you edit the file further, the index will still contain the old version, and a "git commit" without "-a" will just commit whatever's in the index.
00:12	rlb	You can run "git add" as many times as you like to refresh the index.
00:12	ataggart	so the index is an equivalent to the local repo?
00:13	ataggart	well no that wou;dn't make sense considering the comment goes with commit
00:13	rlb	Though in one really common case, you can ignore the index entirely and just use "git commit -a" which will commit the working tree state of every file (that git already knows about).
00:13	rlb	It won't handle new files.
00:13	rlb	You need to "git add" those.
00:13	technomancy	-a is the "turn my lightsaber into a shotgun" flag
00:13	rlb	ataggart: the index is basically a list of file names along with a secret copy of their contents at the point they were added to the index.
00:14	Scriptor	it's really not that complicated, you make a bunch of separate changes, you add certain files to the staging area, commit, and repeat
00:14	rlb	Those files are "staged" -- i.e. they're in the staging area, and git commit (without -a) just commits whatever's in the staging area.
00:14	rlb	"git commit -a" behaves more like svn, etc.
00:15	ataggart	"simple" is clearly a relative word
00:15	rlb	ataggart: I suspect that if you continue to use git, you'll find the index handy eventually.
00:15	ataggart	good thing it's in my face right at the get go then, eh?
00:15	rlb	ataggart: but you can ignore it much of the time if you use "-a".
00:16	rlb	ataggart: and of course "git status" is useful (to help see what's going to happen).
00:16	ataggart	so to get a change from my editor to the repo on git hub, I need to add it to the index (which does?) and then commit it (which does?) and then push it, which gets it to where I want the changes to go.
00:16	Scriptor	ataggart: if all you're doing is changing a text file, sure
00:16	Scriptor	or
00:17	Scriptor	you commit as much as you want, until you've got everything ready
00:17	Scriptor	and then you push
00:17	rlb	I'd also recommend setting color.ui to auto in your ~/.gitconfig. "git config --add color.ui auto"
00:17	rlb	ataggart: and I bet the first time you make use of some of something like "git commit --amend" you might start becoming more fond of git, but who knows?
00:19	rlb	No doubt it can be complicated, but I've been particularly impressed by the fact that I have yet to back myself in a corner, or want to do something that it can't do (after some occasional help from #git).
00:19	ataggart	I'm loath to go there.
00:19	Scriptor	why?
00:19	clojurebot	why not?
00:19	rlb	ataggart: hmm -- they've always been friendly to me...
00:19	ataggart	My experience with git-vocates is much like my experiecen with rubyists
00:19	Scriptor	have you been there before?
00:20	ataggart	no, because I don't really care enough
00:20	ataggart	a few beers in me and I just want to get the bytes onto the damn server
00:20	ataggart	stroking linus' "workflow" just annoys me at this point
00:21	rlb	ataggart: also, fwiw, some of the commands that look arcane are explained pretty well in the manpage EXAMPLES.
00:21	rlb	(or in the output of "git status", etc.)
00:22	Scriptor	ataggart: well, it sounds like we probably won't suddenly convince, just be sure to keep an open mind
00:22	ataggart	perhaps I'm not in the right mindset, but the 99% case of simply moving changes (along with a comment) to the repo should be a fairly basic operation
00:22	clojurebot	use comp for a point free, pointless style
00:22	ataggart	clojurebot confuses me
00:22	slyrus	and it is...
00:23	Scriptor	ataggart: well, repos are just what's on your computer, github just happens to be a repo that's integrated with their site
00:23	ataggart	anyway, my next hurdle will be trying to get thoser changes from my fork of contrib over to official contrib
00:23	rlb	Oh, and I suppose I should mention that you shouldn't use some of those commands (like "commit --amend" or "reset --hard .." if you've already pushed the relevant commits. If you do, you'll make other people grouchy. You're basically editing public history in that case.
00:24	Raynes	ataggart: What VCS do you use right now?
00:24	rlb	(But at least git makes that possible for the cases where you only have local changes.)
00:25	Scriptor	ataggart: oh, that's easy, go to the original repo's github page and click pull request
00:25	Scriptor	give them a brief gist of what you've done, and they can then pull your code themselves
00:25	ataggart	Raynes: svn, though I haven't needed to use the commandline for about 4 years.
00:25	ataggart	well, I have commit rights to contrib
00:26	ataggart	but it wasn't clear to me what the process should be
00:26	ataggart	so I forked it
00:26	scottj	Is there's a simpler fn for merge-with to ensure vals are colls and concat them than this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113394
00:26	Raynes	I don't think of the command-line as something I need to use as much as it is something I'd rather use. Except with magit, of course.
00:27	ataggart	Raynes: I like being able to see every file that has either an incoming or outgoing change, be able to instantly see a visual diff between local and remote sitting side-by-side, etc.
00:27	ataggart	the console sucks for that
00:28	Raynes	Fair enough.
00:29	ataggart	plus console is ugly :)
00:29	ataggart	used almost exclusively for runnign commands on remote machines or tailing logs
00:30	wwmorgan	ataggart: gitx has a pretty good diff viewer
00:30	wwmorgan	gitx / gitk
00:32	ataggart	wwmorgan: where?
00:32	ataggart	ah, I see. ugh, that over/under style
00:33	ataggart	how do you see the diff between a local and remote file?
00:34	wwmorgan	well, you have the whole repo history, so you just view the local commit on your machine
00:35	scottj	ataggart: what diff viewer's format do you like?
00:37	ataggart	scottj: side-by-side. subclipse has a very nice one that keeps the two sides in sync relative to non-changed lines, etc.
00:38	ataggart	though you need some screen realestate, so it doesn't show well in cramped screenshots
00:42	scottj	maybe EGit does that
00:58	slyrus	hmm... I think the two arg repeatedly should go away and the one arg repeatedly should become the (now non-existent) one arg iterate, meaning that repeatedly could just go away.
00:58	slyrus	but what do I know
01:00	ataggart	repeatedly (even the old one-arg version) doesn't do the same thing as iterate
01:02	ataggart	namely the elements of repeat are all just (f)
01:02	ataggart	*repeatedly
01:15	technomancy	slyrus: Clojure has gone for years with only two backwards-incompatible changes, so a change like that is extremely unlikely.
01:16	slyrus	technomancy: yeah, and I see ataggart's point about iterate passing it's result to the next iteration.
01:16	slyrus	nvm...
01:18	technomancy	a total of two (intentional) breaking changes is pretty amazing if you ask me.
01:19	bozhidar	technomancy: what were those two changes?
01:19	raek	which were those, btw?
01:19	ataggart	and I go ahead and make a dozen in c.c.logging
01:21	wwmorgan	bozhidar: the regular expression macro syntax was changed around two years ago
01:21	wwmorgan	*reader macro
01:21	bozhidar	there is some similar change in 1.2 as well I think
01:22	bozhidar	the metadata reader macro was changed or something like that
01:22	bozhidar	I read something of the sort in "Practical Clojure"
01:23	ataggart	^ is the new #^
01:23	ataggart	but I think the old style will still work in 1.2
02:05	kumarshantanu	hi
02:05	Scriptor	hey kumarshantanu
02:06	kumarshantanu	@Scriptor registered just now, so trying out if it works
02:12	scottj	Is it correct that macros can't do anything with the values of symbols they're passed, only output code that does something with them? They can make decisions about what code to output based on the symbols that were passed, but not the value of those symbols?
02:13	Scriptor	scottj: not quite, macros, in a sense, are just passed unevaluated code
02:13	Scriptor	for example, if you pass a macro a number, it can read that number, if you pass it (< 3 3), it will be passed a list of 3 elements
02:14	scottj	and if a is 3 and I pass it a can the macro figure out that a is 3 or does it have to output code that that does that?
02:14	Scriptor	it can figure it out
02:15	Scriptor	so if the definition is (defmacro m (a))
02:16	Scriptor	and you call it: (m 3) or (m some-var) where some-var is 3
02:16	Scriptor	a should just be 3
02:17	wwmorgan	scottj: you have the right idea. I'm not sure what Scriptor is getting at
02:18	scottj	Scriptor: if you do some-var it will be some-var
02:18	Scriptor	oh, right
02:18	Scriptor	sorry, like I said, it won't evaluate some-var
02:20	raek	the macro doesn't really know about the value, since the expansion is done in compile time, not in run-time
02:20	raek	but if the variable a i bound in compile time, it is possible
02:21	raek	however, you would need to call resolve or eval or something like that
02:22	raek	macros are usually unevaluated code in, code to compile out
02:23	raek	but as they have access to everything in clojure, they can perform computations (like evaluating an expression)
02:25	scottj	ahh eval the feature that does just what I want but will get my head bitten off if anyone ever sees my code
02:27	kumarshantanu	hi, can somebody share c.c.sql experience with me?
02:27	scottj	kumarshantanu: haven't used it for awhile but I found it pretty simple and didn't notice any bugs.
02:28	kumarshantanu	i want to able to find out the ID auto-generated by the DB after an INSERT
02:28	kumarshantanu	scottj: any encounter with auto-generated IDs?
02:29	scottj	kumarshantanu: yeah, I think that's not sql generic and you have to issue a command for your specific db that will return the last one
02:29	kumarshantanu	scottj: i see
02:30	raek	scottj: there is probably a more safe (and simple) way than using eval in a macro (e.g. generate code that does what you want instead)
02:31	raek	may I ask what you want the macro to do? (input, desired effect)
02:34	raek	you can always do something like this if you want to make a decision based on a value:
02:34	kumarshantanu	scottj: there is this -- http://download-llnw.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/sql/Statement.html#getGeneratedKeys()
02:35	raek	(defmacro m [x] `(let [y# x] (if (odd? y#) :odd :even)))
02:35	kumarshantanu	scottj: seems it's a standard way to get IDs, so i was wondering if it's possible to use that
02:37	wwmorgan	raek: the x needs to be unescaped. This would also work: (defmacro m [x] `(if (odd? ~x) :odd :even))
02:38	raek	wwmorgan: yes, that's true :)
02:39	raek	as for the let, I just wanted to demonstrate how the gensym# symbols look
02:39	scottj	raek: but what if x is a symbol that has sexps that aren't valid clojure, and I want to look at them before deciding what macro to feed them to?
02:40	raek	ah, maybe I misunderstood you before
02:40	raek	you most certainly can do that
02:40	raek	just do that outside any syntax-quote
02:41	scottj	but that only tells me the symbol, not its value
02:42	raek	(defmacro simple-infix-to-prefix [exp] (asset (= (count exp) 3)) (let [[arg1 op arg2] exp] `(~op ~arg1 ~arg2)))
02:42	raek	it is better to transform the non-clojure code into clojure code
02:43	raek	that is what a macro usually does
02:43	raek	you probably want the symbol to be evaluated in the environment the macro "call" is made
02:44	raek	and not in the compiler's environment
02:45	raek	I got to go now, but I will get back to this channel later
02:45	scottj	ok that makes sense, thanks
02:49	limux1972	hi, raek
02:51	limux1972	I do a little test use hiccup in command
02:51	limux1972	no use of jline
02:51	limux1972	it's ok
02:52	limux1972	it seems to hiccup is ok
03:08	raek	limux1972: ok. great then!
03:08	raek	limux1972: did you find the thing that caused the trouble?
03:25	limux1972	i just do the test to find whether hiccup cause the issue
03:26	limux1972	It seems hiccup is ok
03:30	raek	do you still get ???s instead of the characters?
03:30	limux1972	(html (doctype :xhtml-tag "en" [:body "你好"])) will generate the string ""
03:31	limux1972	"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN\" \"http://www.w3.org/
03:31	limux1972	TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd\">\n<html lang=\"en\" xml:lang=\"en\" xmlns=\"ht
03:31	limux1972	tp://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml\"><body>你好</body></html>"
03:32	limux1972	no ??? appeared
03:33	raek	if you wrap that in seq so you get (seq (html ...))), do you get ... \b \o \d \y \> \你 \好 \< \/ ... at the end?
03:34	raek	limux1972: try http://gist.github.com/ if you want to paste many lines of code
03:34	limux1972	ok
03:37	limux1972	yes, i can get "... \b \o \d \y \> \你 \好 \< \/ ..."
03:38	raek	alright, then there is nothing wrong with tour terminal or hiccup, as far as I can tell
03:40	limux1972	thanks for your so much and nice help
03:42	limux1972	too confused
03:48	xkb	hi
03:48	xkb	Is there any way to improve this piece of code: http://paste.lisp.org/+2FHX ?
03:48	xkb	I think the ugly check on type might not be needed
03:50	bozhidar	why don't you operate on seqs be default?
03:50	bozhidar	I don't like the type checks either
03:51	limux1972	would you like to take a moment to do someting to reproduce the error
03:51	bozhidar	and I doubt you care about the underlying implementation that much...
03:51	limux1972	ie, download that code from githun to do a test with render the html by replace the content in body with some chinese characters
03:51	xkb	I could maybe use take and drop to get somethign more general on seq's
03:52	limux1972	just only a simpler test
03:52	xkb	bozhidar: correct, I don't mind at all. Actually it is a function operation on generated code, so seq is better anyway
03:54	limux1972	perhaps you will find the reasons of issue occured on me
03:55	limux1972	it too hard for me to find that because of my poor clojure experences
03:56	xkb	limux1972: so your problem is the chinese characters are not displayed?
04:04	limux1972	yes, xkb
04:06	raek	limux1972: did you get it working correctly on you computer in the end?
04:07	limux1972	raek, is it possible lein which cause those errors?
04:07	limux1972	on
04:07	limux1972	the browser displays ??? yet
04:08	limux1972	my last test is in a relatively pure clojure REPL, not lein
04:08	raek	but the things we tried yesterday worked?
04:08	raek	lein repl?
04:09	limux1972	i used lein-run
04:09	limux1972	to start the jetty-adapter
04:10	limux1972	the command is lein run script/run.clj
04:10	limux1972	just before, i use clojure REPL
04:11	limux1972	with all the necessary jars execpt jline
04:12	limux1972	no lein, no lein-run
04:12	raek	you could test that example you wrote before both from the repl and from your run script
04:13	raek	things you enter through the lein repl gets through JLine, which breakes UTF-8
04:13	limux1972	all things i tried yesterday worked if no hiccup used
04:14	limux1972	or it will display the annoying ???
04:15	raek	limux1972: you could try this http://groups.google.com/group/compojure/browse_thread/thread/44a25e10c37f3b1b/d4a17cb99f84814f?lnk=gst&q=utf8#d4a17cb99f84814f
04:16	raek	I guess you will have to try different combinations of lein repl / lein run, hiccup / no hiccup to pinpoint where the fault is
04:16	raek	but note that the code you type throught the lein repl might get messed up, due to JLine
04:17	raek	(since it lein repl uses JLine)
04:19	limux1972_	i am willing to try what you say until it's ok
04:23	raek	I'm sorry, but I'm a bit busy now
04:23	limux1972	no matter
04:24	raek	I'll probably be around later, around 16:00 GMT maybe
04:27	scottj	New way of writing web apps that I'm experimenting with: http://gist.github.com/518689 Thoughts?
04:29	xkb	slice em and dice em
04:29	xkb	;-)
04:29	Raynes	Tasty website pie.
05:00	limux1972	raek, is there a middleware in ring used to echo the html text stream to console?
05:01	raek	you could always run the (html ...) in the repl
05:04	raek	(defn debug-println [x] (do (println x) x))
05:05	raek	or, you could wrap the (html ...) form in debug-println: (debug-println (html ...))
05:06	xkb	hmm this is odd, I do lein uberjar on a project, and he starts to run it
05:07	xkb	instead of building the jar
05:10	defn	scottj: that is exactly my idea
05:10	defn	scottj: but sort of a messy implementation IMO
05:10	defn	no offense
05:11	defn	the slices ought to be a product of some higher template-level stuff you're doing
05:11	defn	you need to combine your slices into a template
05:12	scottj	I had that but why? can't the slices themselves be the templates?
05:12	defn	they should be less templates
05:12	defn	lesser
05:12	defn	IMO
05:13	defn	scottj: i really like what you're doing -- it is close to what i imagined
05:13	defn	but this seems gorier than it should be
05:14	scottj	scottj: well the example is ugly in part because I parameterized a bunch of stuff that normally wouldn't be, like all those div ids etc
05:14	defn	scottj: /me nods
05:14	scottj	maybe that's not what you meant
05:14	defn	scottj: im not going to tell you you're doing it wrong because i haven't worked on it
05:14	defn	scottj: http://github.com/defn/double-bubble
05:14	defn	^my project
05:14	defn	;)
05:14	raek	xkb: to you have code that starts the server at the top level?
05:15	raek	if so, move that to a main method
05:15	raek	otherwise the compiler will end up starting the server (since it evaluates all top-level expressions)
05:15	defn	scottj: i think my main problem with your code is that it seems rather jumbled -- i think the result of what you're trying to do should be incredibly modular code snippets
05:16	defn	like you should be applying :css at one level
05:16	defn	and :clj at another
05:16	defn	as opposed to the same level
05:16	defn	scottj: do you follow?
05:17	defn	like (defn foo [title, body] [:html [:head [:title content]] [:body body]])
05:18	defn	(with-css foo [:background-color #333])
05:19	scottj	oh I see decorate the html with css, js, etc
05:19	defn	(deftemplate home (with-css #(foo "Hello world) [:background-color #333])
05:19	defn	something along those lines
05:19	defn	that last thing i wrote is gibberish
05:19	defn	but it's sort of what i imagined
05:20	defn	(deftemplate home [foo (with-css [:background-color #333])])
05:20	defn	that's closer I think
05:21	defn	it's like enlive, but add CSS transformations into the mix
05:21	defn	CSS selector mutation
05:23	scottj	what selector is your with-css using?
05:29	scottj	defn: your repo leaves something to be desired :)
05:30	scottj	so yeah, with slice some of the ideas are a slice wouldn't necessarily have any html. It could be any combination of 0 or more snippets of js, clj, css, html, etc
05:30	scottj	and slices compile to functions
05:31	scottj	and when they're composed they act like templates, and the top level one gives you a valid html page with either inlined or linked css/js
05:33	scottj	I really like the idea of having a uniform unit of code regardless of what language it's going to end up. so even small concepts that span multiple languages can be in one spot that comes up when you M-. on it
05:38	xkb	how come 1.2 is so much slower sometimes?
05:40	scottj	defn: I had a version working without the :var and argument lists features, but I suspect that the difficulty implementing or afterward understanding how to use those features correctly might lead me to understand the value of your approach.
07:35	zmila	, (sort-by (comp < last) {:a 1, :c 3, :b 2})
07:35	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:c 3] [:b 2])
08:11	LauJensen	Good morning all
08:26	esj	LauJensen: heavy night ?
08:27	LauJensen	hehe, no, Im just trying to go with the whole UGT thing to avoid all the repetivetive chatter about timezones, so its all good morning when I come in, and good night when I check out
08:27	dnolen	pretty good article on Clojure strengths (and weaknesses) - http://programming-puzzler.blogspot.com/2010/08/racket-vs-clojure.html
08:27	LauJensen	thanks dnolen
08:38	LauJensen	dnolen: excellent read - I think except for his dislike of Java/Java-land and ignorance of Emacs, he brought up some very good points
08:40	dnolen	LauJensen: heh, "ignorance of Emacs". Aren't we all ignorant of Emacs, even those of us that use it? But yeah, the dislike of Java-land is a bit irrational.
08:41	LauJensen	Hehe - I just expected that he simply hasn't tried it yet. But I like how that article is so focused on data-structures, usually that doesn't get the attention it deserves in the x vs y things
08:50	chouser	that puzzler article is quite good. the list of "unproven features" is insightful and fair.
09:10	rhickey	chouser: the STM ding is a bit naive. Not that STM isn't unproven, but people have unrealistic expectations when given short vs long transactions. That scenario has inherent problems no automated solution (short of serialization) could solve, and there are plenty of practical workarounds given a concrete case
09:11	rhickey	also the transients comment dings the lack of compliant interfaces, but interfaces can't be compliant
09:12	chouser	rhickey: yes, I'd buy that. And I haven't seen those "early reports" on multimethod "prefer"
09:12	rhickey	either conj returns a persistent thing or it doesn't
09:12	chouser	er
09:12	chouser	prefer-method
09:12	LauJensen	rhickey: true on both counts, though I think to most people the STM inner workings are still cryptic and hard to go in-depth with. I mean its still a research problem in some regards right?
09:13	chouser	but it's fair to have doubts about these things. Personally, I'm a whole-hearted believer in protocols already, despite their youth.
09:13	rhickey	chouser: mikel evins and I had some long discussions early on on prefer-method vs CLOS
09:14	rhickey	chouser: one of the challenges of Clojure is that the first 2 years of me changing my mind (and hopefully improving my ideas) happened in private, now it's all public :)
09:15	chouser	:-)
09:15	chouser	some of us prefer it this way
09:16	bozhidar	maybe rhickey doesn't ;-)
09:16	bozhidar	I find it amusing and enlightening to be able to follow the development of new features in the public space
09:16	rhickey	I'm fine with it, just as long as people are mature and realize it is a process, things don't drop from the sky all perfect
09:17	bozhidar	you see the debates, the alternatives and in the end you know that all this lead to something good by no accident
09:17	bozhidar	indeed
09:19	bozhidar	rhickey: I'm sometimes wondering do you plan at some point to author a book on Clojure yourself. Often language architects have created masterpieces, after all you have an unique perspective on your creations
09:19	LauJensen	bozhidar: I asked that a year ago, he said "Do you want me to work on a book or Clojure?", .. so I stopped asking about books :)
09:20	rhickey	bozhidar: Right now it is a choice between work on a book on Clojure or work on Clojure
09:21	chouser	rhickey has put significant time in helping us improve Joy of Clojure, which is a pretty awesome compromise from my perspective.
09:22	bozhidar	rhickey: I think it'll always be this choice, but I've enjoyed your short essays on the clojure web site immensely and I'd love to get more of them. This probably goes to all the clojure users
09:24	rhickey	bozhidar: the pods work has helped me refine my ideas around process and that might warrant another essay. Otherwise most of my more complete thoughts are out there.
09:25	bozhidar	chouser: I'm quite impatient about this one. I read that the book was almost completed. Any chance it'll be shipping before the November estimate?
09:26	LauJensen	rhickey: An essay relating to pods would be fantastic - Would probably boost uptake in the community quite a bit
09:26	rhickey	so much todo for Clojure, short list here: cinc, better method inference, letmacro, JSR 292, modularity, android, pods, parallelism, primitives, scopes...
09:27	chouser	bozhidar: I believe all the content except for foreward and appendices are available electronically now if you buy the meap via http://joyofclojure.com/
09:27	LauJensen	rhickey: That list sounds daunting, but isnt this Clojure/core crew speeding up development quite a bit?
09:27	rhickey	LauJensen: but people aren't well served by descriptions of things that are speculative or changing a lot. I don't need to drum up adoption of new things, I need to temper it :)
09:28	jcromartie	^ wisdom
09:28	chouser	I heard a rumor Clojure/core (or just some members of it?) are spending most of their time using Rails.
09:28	LauJensen	rhickey: of course not - I was thinking post-release, it they come into being
09:29	bozhidar	rhickey: I know you have some ideas for improvements in the JVM. Are you by some chance involved to some extent in the development process of Java 7?
09:29	jcromartie	chouser: like Ruby on Rails?
09:29	LauJensen	chouser: I guess that would make them Clubyists ? :)
09:29	chouser	jcromartie: I haven't verified that at all (hoping rhickey will confirm or deny), but yes that's what I heard.
09:29	rhickey	LauJensen: yes, Clojure/core is helping a lot, especially freeing me to think about these things rather than e.g. maven builds
09:29	rhickey	bozhidar: not at all
09:30	LauJensen	hehe, great, thats a big win :)
09:31	bozhidar	chouser: I've been thinking about the MEAP lately, I just wasn't sure about it's shape - because from my experience a lot of changes get made at the last moment. I guess you're better organized than I am :-)
09:31	chouser	bozhidar: oh, I'm sure there will be last-minute changes.
09:42	LauJensen	chouser: How does it feel to be wrapping up a project as big a JOC ?
09:42	chouser	LauJensen: daunting. Fogus is my salvation.
09:44	LauJensen	Im sure you're a great team, supporting each other in different ways
09:44	LauJensen	s/You're/you make/
09:44	sexpbot	Im sure you make a great team, supporting each other in different ways
10:01	perkinsc	The clojure.org site has llots of really great documentation about the rationale behind clojure's design. Will similar essays be posted about protocols, deftype, etc. when 1.2 is released?
10:02	MayDaniel	http://clojure.org/datatypes http://clojure.org/protocols
10:04	perkinsc	OK, cool. I assume they will be linked from the some page once 1.2 is out. Thanks for the links.
10:04	perkinsc	a/some page/home page
10:04	MayDaniel	Yeah. They're pretty well hidden.
10:20	edbond	whats the best coupon for 'joy of clojure' now? I see clojure35 for 35%
10:22	LauJensen	chouser: what was joyofclojure.com/buy the url you suggested to purchase from ?
10:22	chouser	that's it
10:23	chouser	sometimes there's coupon codes on joyofclojure.com itself
10:41	scottj	Is there a function that will replace all instances of symbol a in a sexp with symbol b? (replace 'a 'b '(c (d a))) => (c (d b))
10:44	chouser	,(clojure.walk/prewalk-replace '{a b} '(c (d a)))
10:44	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk
10:45	chouser	,(use 'clojure.walk)
10:45	clojurebot	nil
10:45	chouser	,(clojure.walk/prewalk-replace '{a b} '(c (d a)))
10:45	clojurebot	(c (d b))
10:45	chouser	scottj: how's that?
10:45	scottj	chouser: perfect, thanks
10:47	zmila	why quote before map {a b}?
10:48	scottj	zmila: prewalk-replace is a function so args get evaluated and we want symbols a b not what they're bound to
10:49	zmila	i need to think this about :)
10:50	scottj	zmila: it's the same reason the list (c ...) is quoted
10:50	spewn	scottj: It's slightly different because ('c ...) won't work, but {'a ...} would.
10:51	scottj	spewn: yeah I realized right after I said that that I was confusing myself because lists are special since they represent function calls
10:51	chouser	,(let [a 1, b 2] {a b})
10:51	clojurebot	{1 2}
10:51	chouser	,(let [a 1, b 2] '{a b})
10:51	clojurebot	{a b}
10:52	zmila	,(clojure.walk/prewalk-replace '{Math/sin Math/sqrt} '(println (Math/sin 4)))
10:52	clojurebot	(println (Math/sqrt 4))
10:52	chouser	I think that's the first time I've used clojure.walk
10:52	danlei	:)
10:52	zmila	,(clojure.walk/prewalk-replace {Math/sin Math/sqrt} '(println (Math/sin 4)))
10:52	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to find static field: sin in class java.lang.Math
10:52	spewn	Is there ever any reason to do (into [] foo) over (vec foo)?
10:53	chouser	spewn: I don't think so
10:56	spewn	chouser: Good, thanks :)
10:56	zmila	into is different when applied not to empty literal [] but to other vector, yes?
10:57	LauJensen	zmila: how?
10:58	spewn	,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
10:58	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 6]
10:58	zmila	correct, spewn
10:58	LauJensen	ah ok, really didn't get that from the question
10:59	scottj	,(let [ensure-coll #(if (coll? %) % (vector %))] (merge-with #(mapcat ensure-coll %&) {:a 1} {:a [2]} {:a [3] :b 1}))
10:59	clojurebot	{:b 1, :a (1 2 3)}
10:59	scottj	Is there a shorter way to write that?
11:00	zmila	(frequencies (flatten (vals your-data)))
11:01	pdk	(doc condp)
11:01	clojurebot	"([pred expr & clauses]); Takes a binary predicate, an expression, and a set of clauses. Each clause can take the form of either: test-expr result-expr test-expr :>> result-fn Note :>> is an ordinary keyword. For each clause, (pred test-expr expr) is evaluated. If it returns logical true, the clause is a match. If a binary clause matches, the result-expr is returned, if a ternary clause matches, its result-fn, which must b
11:02	zmila	not, (map #(flatten (vals %)) (frenqencies your-data))
11:05	scottj	zmila: I don't see it :)
11:05	pdk	(condp = 1 2 :2 0 :0 :1)
11:05	pdk	,(condp = 1 2 :2 0 :0 :1)
11:05	clojurebot	:1
11:05	pdk	,(condp < 1 2 :2 0 :0 :1)
11:05	clojurebot	:0
11:09	dpro	hi
11:10	dpro	thx to this channel my emacs/swank setup works as expected now, but java eats ~40% cpu for an idle "lein -swank" REPL, is that normal ?
11:10	LauJensen	dpro: Should idle around 0 - 1%
11:11	dpro	LauJensen: hmm my top output begs to differ ;)
11:12	LauJensen	If you've filled up the memory of the system, then swapping might explain it, but not a fresh repl
11:12	dpro	I'll restart and reconnect ... maybe some previously closed windows
11:12	dpro	processes weren't garbage collected
11:13	LauJensen	dpro: And make sure your -Xmx isnt set sky high
11:13	neotyk	how do you get form parameters in defroutes in compojure?
11:14	neotyk	how to destructure it?
11:14	dpro	looks better now ...
11:14	LauJensen	neotyk: form parameters in defroutes?
11:15	neotyk	(POST "/sample/" {{a :a} :params} (fn [a] a))
11:15	pdk	(doc defroute)
11:15	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:15	LauJensen	dpro: good, I think the only caveat is memory consumption, and you can control that at command-line
11:15	neotyk	LauJensen: how do i get fomr param named a from this route?
11:16	neotyk	s/fomr/form/
11:16	sexpbot	LauJensen: how do i get form param named a from this route?
11:16	dpro	LauJensen: cheers, but I don't think swapping was the problem
11:16	LauJensen	neotyk: this might help http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2010/02/reddit-clone-in-10-minutes-and-91-lines-of-clojure.html
11:16	LauJensen	DISCLAIMER: Compojure has changed a bit since that 0.3.2 post
11:16	dpro	apparently just closing a window isn't enough to clean it all up after a (load "something")
11:16	neotyk	LauJensen: checked this already
11:16	LauJensen	If you need specific 4.0 tips Im blank - Im deeply invested in Moustache now
11:17	neotyk	trying to build reddit clone running on GAE with new compojure
11:17	LauJensen	neotyk: But, if you forget about wrappers, then in 'params' there's a key called 'body. In there, you'll find the params
11:18	LauJensen	something like (->> (:body request) (repeatedly #(.read %)) (take-while pos?) (map char) (apply str)). That will give you something like "a=1&b=2" depending on whats posted. Run java.net.URLDecoder/decode on the values to get pure text
11:19	LauJensen	Though.. Im sure they wrapped that somehow, its a common thing with Ring
11:28	neotyk	(POST "/new/" {{title "title" url "url"} :params} (add-link title url))
11:28	neotyk	that made it\
11:40	LauJensen	Interesting approach
11:51	dnolen	so is any excited enough about good TextMate support to be willing to contribute some code? :D, so far Eval, Eval pprint, Show Source, Load File, Macroexpand, and Macroexpand are all working. Everything is implemented in Clojure so need to use a less powerful language to extend the bundle.
11:51	dnolen	Macroexpand All
11:52	dnolen	s/any/anyone
11:54	esj	we're all afraid of Lau raining fire on us :P
11:56	dnolen	esj: heh, well I'll keep hacking on it, tho I'm won't be surprised if there aren't many TextMaters since Clojure TextMate support has been pretty dismal until now. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
11:57	esj	dnolen: i'm just joking of course, and improving tools is a huge plus for us all
11:57	LauJensen	esj: what?! :)
11:58	LauJensen	Yea Im all for all IDEs - But I must admit I've never tried this thing called 'text mate'
11:59	LauJensen	hehe
11:59	LauJensen	Its a valid question though
12:00	danlarkin	I used textmate for a couple years. Thinking back on it I can't justify why
12:00	esj	dnolen: warned you, I did :P
12:01	LauJensen	esj: cool it Yoda :)
12:02	dnolen	well everyone I work with uses TextMate (a couple VIMers), they're all scared of Emacs.
12:02	technomancy	danlarkin: the people I used to know who liked textmate mostly used it because they were allergic to lisp.
12:02	LauJensen	Maybe its time for a more rigorious comparison of the different IDEs. There must be some strong incentives to choose Emacs > Eclipse > Netbeans > ... and so on. But I have too limited knowledge of most of them
12:02	technomancy	or they thought they were at least
12:03	dnolen	I'd like to think of my TextMate bundle as yet another gateway drug ... to Emacs
12:03	Chousuke	heh
12:03	danlarkin	LauJensen: problem is, no one can make an objective comparison :)
12:03	LauJensen	danlarkin: I guess thats true
12:04	Chousuke	I think emacs' extensibility is what primarily draws people to it
12:04	Chousuke	and the fact that everything integrates with it :P
12:04	esj	full disclosure - I use emacs exclusively. But others don't.
12:05	chouser	the last time I stopped using emacs it was because its integration with cscope was broken compared to vim
12:06	LauJensen	chouser: But you never got the keycombos into your fingers did you?
12:06	alexyk	anybody uses La Clojure?
12:06	chouser	LauJensen: yeah, I was pretty comfortable with it. Used it for all my email and code editing
12:07	alexyk	dnolen: there were some ingenious clojure bundles for textmate, most abandoned though; invoking repl with some ruby tricks, does your do that?
12:07	Chousuke	I like the vim interface to editing, I just don't like the editor itself as much as I like emacs :P
12:07	LauJensen	chouser: cool
12:08	technomancy	is cscope like a tags generator?
12:08	Chousuke	it's a shame that viper/vimpulse doesn't work very well together with most emacs add-ons
12:08	chouser	Chousuke: yeah, it really is.
12:08	chouser	and that's mainly a culteral thing, I assume, which is harder to fix than code. :-/
12:08	LauJensen	Chousuke: But are vi-bindings really superior to Emacs'? Because if they're not, or at least if its debateable, why not just use the combos which are natural to emacs?
12:09	chouser	LauJensen: they really are superior.
12:09	chouser	:-)
12:09	danlarkin	LauJensen: muscle memory?
12:09	Chousuke	LauJensen: it's not just about bindings, it's about the whole paradigm of having modes and actions and "targets"
12:09	LauJensen	Chousuke: I know, but now I was thinking about the bindings
12:09	LauJensen	(ive never been able to pick up vims)
12:09	dnolen	alexyk: it relies on Cake. Cake launches persistent VMs. I convinced them to add a bunch of features to make integrating with TextMate simpler.
12:09	LauJensen	s/able/willing/
12:09	sexpbot	(ive never been willing to pick up vims)
12:10	Chousuke	LauJensen: vim's bindings could probably be improved while keeping the core paradigm intact, too
12:10	dnolen	alexyk: for example I can write a executable script with !#/usr/bin/evn cake run at the top of a .clj file and it runs blazingly quickly since the JVM has already been started up.
12:10	dakrone	Chousuke: how would you improve vim's bindings?
12:10	dnolen	it's also get the entire shell environment passed to in a bound var env
12:10	Chousuke	dakrone: I haven't thought much about it but if I were to write a new editor from scratch I'm sure I would find something :)
12:11	alexyk	dnolen: I convinced them of features first! :) Is your bundle new, or cake functionality is new?
12:11	dnolen	so you get figure out what the damn current directory is as well as other envrionment vars
12:11	alexyk	dnolen: do you know that in the horror world called Windows, there's an editor called e-texteditor which runs TextMate bundle as is?
12:11	chouser	Chousuke: I agree. vim kept more compatibility with vi than it now really needs.
12:12	dakrone	Chousuke: seems like key-bindings are an easy thing to fix in both Vim or Emacs
12:12	dakrone	since you can bind your own
12:12	dnolen	alexyk: I'm punting Windows compatibility to Cake, they seem concerned with that. I'm assuming my work can be adapted to the Window's TextMate editor
12:13	Chousuke	If I were to write a new editor I'd do it with GNU Guile or something and make it like vim, but then again I would also attempt to design it so it can handle more than just text editing (like emacs does)
12:13	alexyk	dnolen: that conceivably may bring a cute clojure IDE to Windows
12:13	Chousuke	but then again, I'm not going to write a new editor so hmm :P
12:13	chouser	dakrone: you'd think, but then when you do anything a little unusual (hyperlinking, directory-tree browsing, org-mode, etc.) each of those plugins want to take over a set of bindings.
12:14	dakrone	chouser: that sounds like more a criticism of model editing than regular keybindings, is that correct?
12:14	chouser	they're usually careful to provide bindings that are compatible with what "most people use", which of course is different in each editor.
12:15	chouser	dakrone: I'm not sure what you mean
12:16	dakrone	chouser: are you saying you prefer Emacs' bindings because they can be standardized over a wider range of buffers since they are all non-text characters (ie, C-a, C-e, etc)?
12:17	Chousuke	dakrone: I'm sure a number of commands could be "standardised" over different modes even in a vi-like editor
12:17	chouser	oh, not at all. I consider emac's bindings to be modal as well, you just have to hold down your mode keys all the time.
12:17	dakrone	Chousuke: yea, and they are, I'm just trying to understand the argument
12:17	dakrone	I still don't understand the basic argument against it then
12:18	chouser	my point is just that when a plugin adds new bindings in either editor, it tries to avoid clobbering default bindings, so it's much easier to use plugins when you use that editor's default bindings.
12:18	chouser	and so you run into problems trying to use viper in emacs or cream in vim
12:19	dakrone	ahh yea, okay, as a hardcore Vim person who attempted to use Emacs via Viper for about a week, I certainly agree
12:20	dakrone	then I found myself actually sinking into depression trying to use Emacs, so I stopped ;)
12:21	chouser	it would require so much work for me to bend emacs to my will, and all that work would be in a lousy ancient lisp ... it's just daunting.
12:21	Chousuke	heh
12:21	Chousuke	and writing new editors really is not feasible nowadays :(
12:22	LauJensen	chouser: really? because you would redesign the ways keybindings work and such ?
12:22	dakrone	chouser: so what do you normally use anyway?
12:22	chouser	there's plenty I don't like and/or don't know well enough in vim, but it mostly works how I want already, so I stay.
12:22	Chousuke	"It doesn't even do autocompletion for source code, what a lousy editor!"
12:22	chouser	Chousuke: yeah. :-(
12:23	chouser	I need to look at waterfront.
12:23	chouser	still
12:23	dakrone	Chousuke: Vim does autocompletion for code...
12:23	chouser	dakrone: he's talking about a theoretical new editor written from scratch
12:23	chouser	like textjure. :-P
12:23	dakrone	oh okay, I apologize, sorry Chousuke
12:29	Chousuke	It's a problem with software in general I suppose
12:30	Chousuke	Nowadays we'd know how to do most things "right" but it's not feasible to start from scratch ;/
12:31	Chousuke	(and even if you did it, the same thing would repeat a couple decades later)
13:03	slyrus	I don't suppose java has built-in support for 2-bit array elements... can anyone recommend a good java library that does this? (and 4-bits, while we're at it).
13:10	dpro	has anyone done some YASnippets for clojure so far ?
13:10	polypus	can lein compile java sources? if so where to place them, how to do it?
13:13	dakrone	polypus: check out lein-javac http://github.com/antoniogarrote/lein-javac
13:13	polypus	dakrone: ty
13:13	LauJensen	dpro: they're not very helpful. perhaps for function definitions
14:09	apgwoz	polypus: i just started using lein-javac today, and it works perfectly fine
14:11	LauJensen	I think 'select-keys' might be poorly named, seeing how its not selecting keys but key/val pairs
14:21	AWizzArd	,(doc select-keys)
14:21	clojurebot	"([map keyseq]); Returns a map containing only those entries in map whose key is in keys"
14:21	AWizzArd	maybe select-entries
14:22	LauJensen	exactly
14:22	AWizzArd	Though, a function returning keys that were its input sounds more like identity :)
14:24	chouser	could be filter-map
14:24	chouser	though it isn't, quite.
14:35	apgwoz	`select-keys` seems like the right name to me. `select-in` would also be acceptable to me.
14:36	apgwoz	(i.e. (select-in {...} [k1 k2])))
14:39	AWizzArd	On the other hand it’s no tragedy.
14:40	alexyk	how do you switch back to "global" namespace in repl after going to some other with (in-ns smth)?
14:42	chouser	there's no global namespace
14:43	chouser	but you're in 'user by default, so (in-ns 'user) may do what you want
14:45	alexyk	chouser: ah ok. say I have a file with: (ns hey) (member:defn hey [x] (print (str "hey, " x))). I load it into a repl. If I do (in-ns 'hey), should I be able to say just (hey "man") ?
14:45	alexyk	member: is extraneous
14:45	alexyk	colloquy loves him rotten
14:46	AWizzArd	yes, when you in-ns into hey, then you can call all fns in it directly
14:46	AWizzArd	without the ns specifier
14:50	LauJensen	apgwoz: select-in is also good
14:50	rhickey	chouser: where are those nice tests mentioned here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/04302f0aa80bc52b ?
15:01	alexyk	after a while I forget how to show two things from repl: (1) clojure version, (2) classpath. So -- how, and are they in a FAQ somewhere?
15:02	tomoj	clojure-version, classpath, dunno
15:02	AWizzArd	(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
15:03	Nikelandjelo	Is there built-in function, analogous defn- ,but more general, for def?
15:03	alexyk	AWizzArd: see, yours I knew and could never remember; tomoj's, OTOH, I can
15:03	tomoj	I think we do need a #clojure FAQ
15:03	Nikelandjelo	*macro
15:03	alexyk	tomoj: it wills say "ask tomoj" :)
15:04	alexyk	chouser: is the gentleman in the top hat on the cover of TJoC supposed to remeble rhickey ?
15:04	alexyk	resemble
15:04	LauJensen	alexyk: no thats Chouser in his sunday suit :)
15:04	alexyk	LauJensen: chouser on github pic looks slimmer :)
15:04	LauJensen	its only a headshot
15:05	alexyk	LauJensen: but kind of extrapolates to a slimmer build, if you will
15:05	kencausey	no infobot here?
15:05	LauJensen	Im only kidding ofc, its just something MEAP does to all their books in order to scare away customers I think
15:06	alexyk	LauJensen: AFAIU authors do get to pick a person? Seeing the cover reminded me of clojure videos for some reason :)
15:06	LauJensen	oh... I didn't know that
15:06	hiredman	clojurebot: infobots \|are\| inferior
15:06	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
15:08	kencausey	clojurebot: help
15:08	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
15:08	hiredman	it's help in the most abstract sense
15:09	kencausey	clojurebot: clojure version
15:09	alexyk	hiredman: better make it an NSFW site
15:09	clojurebot	see swank
15:09	cemerick	,clojure-version
15:09	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
15:09	alexyk	,classpath
15:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: classpath in this context
15:09	alexyk	tomoj: ^^?
15:09	cemerick	,(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
15:09	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission java.class.path read)
15:09	cemerick	heh, oh well
15:10	alexyk	cemerick: yeah, but tomoj mentioned classpath and I was elated. Why don't we define that?
15:11	hiredman	because any classloader can add it's own classpath, so what would classpath be except a listing of the system classloader's classpath
15:11	hiredman	which is what you set with with -cp
15:12	hiredman	so, uh, whats the point?
15:12	cemerick	alexyk: I can imagine people rebinding classpath, and then being very confused as to why it doesn't do what you'd hope for.
15:12	alexyk	hiredman: rememberability
15:13	tomoj	alexyk: weird, I have it
15:13	alexyk	tomoj: did you define it yourself?
15:15	tomoj	nope
15:15	tomoj	must be swank-clojure
15:15	tomoj	I have it when I connect to a swank server, not in a plain repl
15:28	alexyk	aha
15:29	alexyk	whoever wrote swank-clojure, he was a smart man
15:29	alexyk	or she
15:29	alexyk	a smart woman then
15:29	alexyk	dnolen: is your TextMate bundle operational?
15:29	Raynes	Wasn't it jochu?
15:34	dnolen	alexyk: the basics are there yes, http://github.com/swannodette/textmate-clojure/tree/cake
15:34	dnolen	alexyk: I have quite a bit of finessing to do before I want to do any kind of announcement tho.
15:35	alexyk	dnolen: did you build on the existing extensive bundles with syntax/repls etc?
15:35	dnolen	alexyk: I want to be able to intelligent determine the sexpr enclosing/preceding the cursor using Clojure. also wrap all commands in try/catch to produce nice formatting stack traces with urls to source files
15:36	alexyk	dnolen: beautiful
15:36	dnolen	alexyk: i used mcgrana's it just does syntax highlighting. all the other bundles are too hacky for my tastes. my bundle pretty much puts all the logic in Clojure
15:36	alexyk	dnolen: that's great. It means it should be portable to Windows then, hopefully
15:37	alexyk	dnolen: so cake repl is TextMate's response to swank, right?
15:38	dnolen	alexy: cake has swank. what cake does is create persistent VMs. so instead of booting each time, it just hooks into a running VM
15:38	dnolen	alexyk: originally I was using cake eval, which can take an sexpr and evaluate it in a peristent VM, but that became unweildy.
15:39	dnolen	alexyk: so I requested "cake run". Which will take a .clj file and execute it with bake/env bound to all the shell environment vars when "cake run" was executed
15:39	alexyk	dnolen: right, right. I'm just wondering what the workflow w.r.t. repl can look like from TM. I never saw anything like an efficient repl in textmate. Used to send lines to an existing repl in iTerm via an applescript snippet in TM.
15:39	alexyk	dnolen: you still want to execute selections
15:39	dnolen	alexky: that already works
15:40	dnolen	alexyk: as well as loading a file to compile it. It even guesses the name space and ensures that new eval'ed expression happen in the namespace for that file.
15:41	dnolen	basically I want this to be the core of the SLIME experience, without SLIME
15:42	alexyk	dnolen: README still refers to a github path from mmcgrana
15:42	alexyk	dnolen: "slime experience without slime" is a good company motto :)
15:43	dnolen	alexyk: yeah, lemme fix
15:45	dnolen	alexyk: fixed, and cake is now the master of my repo
15:45	alexyk	dnolen: awesome
15:46	alexyk	saved me a git checkout cake :)
15:46	dnolen	alexyk: there's certainly going to be a lot rough edges, this is only a couple days of work :)
15:47	alexyk	dnolen: as a friend replied to a scared newbie driver pulling out of a driveway onto a main street, saying "I can't see", -- "don't worry, you'll hear" :)
15:47	LauJensen	hehe
15:48	alexyk	dnolen: btw, why does everybody show osascript command to reload bundles if you can do it from a menu?
15:49	dnolen	alexyk: no idea
15:49	alexyk	not like you're avoiding TM menus anyway
15:51	alexyk	dnolen: do you have to start cake repl from a Terminal? I did iTerm and get a refusing to quit eval error on shift-cmd-x
15:53	dnolen	alexyk: I haven't tried iTerm, in general you should issue cake repl FIRST before trying to run any commands.
15:53	alexyk	dnolen: did that. Hmm: Load File: unknown task: run
15:54	alexyk	(shift-cmd-K)
15:54	dnolen	alexyk: you need an up to date version of cake, do you have 3.8 installed?
15:54	dnolen	alexyk: known issue, load file doesn't work on unsaved files, files that don't belong to project. it's on the TODO list, which is in the repo
15:55	alexyk	ok, updated cake. up to date means pull again next day :)
15:57	alexyk	dnolen: I get an NPE now on eval or run, in eval.clj:1
15:58	dnolen	alexyk: huh, can you gist the stacktrace please.
15:59	alexyk	dnolen: if I could scrape it out of that pop-up :)
15:59	alexyk	ah I can
15:59	dnolen	alexyk: yup, sooo lame. I need to fix that.
16:00	dnolen	clj-stacktrace to the rescue I think for that.
16:00	alexyk	dnolen: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/249031/
16:00	alexyk	that's the error
16:00	alexyk	in the popup upon shift-cmd-x in (4+5)
16:00	alexyk	cake repl started before
16:01	alexyk	dnolen: is it sending to the Terminal, or only internally?
16:01	dnolen	alexy: (4 + 5) ? you mean (+ 4 5)
16:01	alexyk	README said (4+5)! :)
16:01	dnolen	alexky: haha
16:01	alexyk	like any good FORTRAN!
16:02	alexyk	wait, it's not #Fortran66?
16:03	alexyk	still same thing on (+ 4 5), or load file, something's fishy with the setup
16:03	dnolen	alexyk: and you verify that the cake repl is working just fine?
16:03	alexyk	in the Terminal, yes
16:04	alexyk	should I restart TextMate just in case?
16:04	dnolen	alexyk: sometimes things get into a weird state, especially if you've used cake before. I recommend "cake kill --all", then "cake repl"
16:04	dnolen	alexyk: no need to restart TM
16:04	alexyk	dnolen: I have to cake jvm's now. I'll just start cake repl again.
16:05	alexyk	dnolen: replace 2 seconds by 7 in the README for coldstart expectations :)
16:06	alexyk	"and, in 7-11 seconds, you'll have a repl"
16:06	alexyk	dnolen: still the same
16:07	alexyk	dnolen: after I git pull in cake, do I have to rebuild it?
16:07	lancepantz	alexyk: no
16:08	alexyk	lancepantz: what I thought
16:09	alexyk	dnolen: shift-cmd-K works!
16:09	alexyk	-X fails as before
16:10	dnolen	alexyk: incredible.
16:10	alexyk	but for -K, you deserve hugs and kisses! :)
16:10	alexyk	and cake people get chocolates
16:10	alexyk	magically, stuff is injected into your repl from TM.
16:11	dnolen	alexyk: yup. that's weird about X, it's working here. I need to try this on a clean setup and see what's going on .
16:11	alexyk	so I can have my repl in a normal console, not some gnuish emacs you have to switch to :)
16:11	alexyk	dnolen: sorry, my bad, I didn't select sh*t.
16:12	alexyk	I placed a cursor within it
16:12	alexyk	expecting you to fund the sexp
16:12	dnolen	alexyk: on the todo list
16:12	dnolen	alexyk: http://github.com/swannodette/textmate-clojure/blob/cake/TODO.txt
16:13	alexyk	might as well start opening tickets :)
16:13	dnolen	alexyk: sure
16:14	alexyk	lancepantz: so is run doing cake compile? i.e. cake compile injects into project's JVM?
16:16	lancepantz	alexyk: compile creates class files, completely different process than reloading the classes in the jvm
16:16	clojurebot	the unit of compilation in clojure is the namespace. namespaces are compiled (not files). to compile a namspace the namespace needs to be on the classpath and so does ./classes/ (and the directory needs to exist) because clojure writes the class files to that directory. http://clojure.org/compilation
16:16	dnolen	alexyk: I think compile generates class files right? run just sends the contents of the file to the running JVM I believe.
16:17	alexyk	lancepantz: so why does run task say "Compilation finished"?
16:17	dnolen	alexky: I added that
16:17	dnolen	remember the the part about "rough edges"
16:17	lancepantz	ah, had us confused for a second :)
16:17	alexyk	dnolen: I didn't know if you capture the status or pass it along :)
16:18	alexyk	lancepantz: you'll now hear shouts from above via dnolen :)
16:18	alexyk	ok it all works, whew
16:18	alexyk	clojure productivity award of 2010
16:19	alexyk	2009 went to lein
16:19	alexyk	2010 is cake + TM
16:20	dnolen	alexyk: haha we'll see, there's a lot work to do for the TM experience to match Emacs
16:20	alexyk	dnolen: I used to get by with a simple send to terminal. BTW, also would be good to have eval current line.
16:20	alexyk	(so you don't care where the cursor is)
16:22	lancepantz	dnolen: ninjudd just showed me how you figured out how to make clojure files executable
16:22	lancepantz	that is really freaking cool
16:22	lancepantz	they also don't have to end in .clj
16:23	alexyk	lancepantz: I guess this is where the global jvm will be handy
16:23	alexyk	can start cake on Mac boot and have it clojure-scriptable
16:23	lancepantz	yeah
16:23	Blue-Fox	hi
16:23	alexyk	then can also add Dcake.project to it so scripts don't pollute projects if happen to be launched from them
16:24	LauJensen	Do you guys see such a great use for a persistent jvm, that you keep one running constantly ?
16:24	Blue-Fox	clojure supports sockets, doesn't it?
16:24	LauJensen	Blue-Fox: Clojure supports everything which Java supports, so yes
16:24	lancepantz	alexyk: that's a good idea too
16:24	alexyk	LauJensen: cake launches a global jvm if it's outside o f a project
16:24	Blue-Fox	LauJensen: wow
16:24	lancepantz	LauJensen: yeah, i do, mainly because i'm connected to it with swank usually
16:25	lancepantz	so its just there
16:25	Chousuke	Blue-Fox: Clojure runs on the JVM; you have full access to all java libraries.
16:25	LauJensen	alexyk: Yea I know - Im just saying, when I look at the stuff I use Clojure for, that seems wasteful, to keep it running
16:25	alexyk	LauJensen: I want to be able to open the lid of my MacBook, type someting, and eval right away.
16:25	Chousuke	Blue-Fox: Most of the time they're not very well fitting with clojure idioms though.
16:25	LauJensen	Lets say I launch cake+jvm for project X, and later I want to work with project Y, does cake update the classpath and everything for that?
16:26	ninjudd	LauJensen: 'cake kill --all' will stop all persistent JVMs. you can run it occasionally if you are short on resources
16:26	Chousuke	Blue-Fox: but they're usable, which is what matters :)
16:26	alexyk	LauJensen: cake runs a jvm per project.
16:26	LauJensen	alexyk: ah
16:26	Blue-Fox	clojure isn't OOP, is it?
16:26	alexyk	LauJensen: you have to discipline your consumption of jvms :)
16:26	LauJensen	Blue-Fox: http://clojure.org/rationale
16:26	Chousuke	Blue-Fox: Not the classes-and-inheritance kind of OOP anyway
16:26	ninjudd	i regularly have 10 running and don't even notice
16:26	Chousuke	Blue-Fox: I'd say it's mostly functional and interface-oriented :P
16:27	ninjudd	we played around with having them stop automatically when idle
16:27	LauJensen	alexyk: I would see the point if it had a very intelligent way to handle classpath, so that one instance could be used throughout the day
16:27	ninjudd	i could pick that back up if it is a widespread concern
16:27	Blue-Fox	LauJensen and Chousuke: thanks
16:27	alexyk	ninjudd: wait until you do data mining with 30 GB per JVM. I guess using -Dcake,project will be handy in case you don't care about resuing JVMs
16:27	alexyk	reusing
16:27	Blue-Fox	good night
16:27	LauJensen	night
16:27	alexyk	ninjudd: simply an option to reuse a jvm will be fine
16:28	alexyk	like, in project.clj, :cake-jvm-from "path"
16:28	ninjudd	projects can't really share JVMs safely
16:29	alexyk	:cake-insafe-jvm-from :)
16:29	alexyk	unsafe
16:29	alexyk	or just reuse global
16:30	LauJensen	ninjudd: well... not easily
16:30	alexyk	i.e. then you "merge" you project dir to that of a parent project, virtually; same effect as if you merge their src/ dirs
16:30	alexyk	last proj wins
16:30	ninjudd	i really don't think multiple JVMs will be a problem
16:31	ninjudd	i could add an option in ~/.cake/config: max_jvms = 10
16:31	ninjudd	and it could stop inactive JVMs if you exceed that
16:37	cryptic_star	hi all, I have a question about lein-clojars...it looks like it should be able to push to a specified remote repository using similar syntax to scp, so "lein push <username>@<server>:<path>", but I continuously get auth failures, despite having generated keys with lein keygen and placed them on both the host and remote server - any idea what's up?
16:38	ninjudd	alexyk: or .cake/config: inactive.shutdown = 30 # minutes
16:39	alexyk	ninjudd: what I care about is not max number of JVMs, but having a ver beefy one with lots of RAM. But probably I shouldn't have more than one anyways.
16:39	alexyk	I'd probably like reusing the fat one for some unrelated namespaces
16:39	alexyk	ninjudd: how about that, reuse for nonoverlapping namespaces?
16:39	LauJensen	ninjudd: I understand cake works with gems, whats their story on linux/osx/windows?
16:40	alexyk	LauJensen: gems work everywhere
16:40	alexyk	better portability than bash
16:41	LauJensen	cool
16:41	dakrone	cryptic_star: does pushing with scp instead of lein work?
16:41	ninjudd	cake mostly works on windows
16:41	LauJensen	argh there it came
16:41	LauJensen	I was just about to say 'thats the first piece of software Ive heard works on windows'
16:41	alexyk	ninjudd: do you mean Windows as in cmd or PowerShell, or under cygwin?
16:41	ninjudd	cryptic_star: is your key in .ssh/id_rsa, .ssh/id_dsa, or .ssh/identity?
16:41	alexyk	LauJensen: it will work on Windows, or we invade Denmark.
16:42	LauJensen	No problem, I could do with a vacation on Hawaii :)
16:42	cryptic_star	@ninjudd my key is in ./ssh/id_rsa
16:42	LauJensen	We've been invaded before, we know the drill
16:42	alexyk	LauJensen: there's a Microsoft presence there, that's why we'll invade it :)
16:42	cryptic_star	@dakrone I have not tried using scp - was hoping to get it to work with lein first, but that might be a good indication
16:42	ninjudd	LauJensen: there are two open issues that i'm working on, but it wasn't very hard at all to get it running on windows
16:43	alexyk	Hawaii, of course, is where Microsoft folks vacation, too
16:43	dakrone	cryptic_star: jssh doesn't pick up settings in ~/.ssh/config, so if you have any there it may not work
16:43	LauJensen	ninjudd: One of my major objections to lein, is that it has no Windows story yet
16:43	alexyk	ninjudd: so, cygwin or plain cmd shell? should it need any changes under cygwin?
16:43	lancepantz	alexyk: cmd
16:43	ninjudd	LauJensen: Windows was one of the primary reasons we chose Ruby instead of bash
16:44	alexyk	lancepantz: so cygwin should be ok?
16:44	lancepantz	alexyk: yeah, i don't think anyone has tried it yet though
16:44	cryptic_star	so scp did work
16:44	LauJensen	ninjudd: Good pick
16:44	ninjudd	alexyk: plain shell. cygwin should work too though
16:44	alexyk	lancepantz: I will next time I reboot my MBP into Windows 7. I share Maven repo across the Mac and Windows partition.
16:44	alexyk	I share the cake git repo too :)
16:45	ninjudd	cryptic_star: if you're feeling adventurous, cake has a built in release task that pushes to clojars
16:45	alexyk	with Java-based stuff, you can reuse most of it. I can run IDEA on both.
16:45	alexyk	ninjudd: lancepantz are you guys aware of PowerShell? very cute
16:45	lancepantz	alexyk: heh, did you have to buy two licenses? :)
16:45	cryptic_star	@ninjudd Ahh, I see you're pushing your project? :)
16:46	alexyk	lancepantz: IDEA is now open-source in Community Edition, which has Maven and Git and Clojure plugins
16:46	cryptic_star	@ninjudd I'll take a look at it actually, looks cool
16:47	alexyk	lancepantz: you can git clone idea and enjoy the power of git on 70 MB checkout
16:47	lancepantz	alexyk: ah, had no idea :)
16:47	alexyk	lancepantz: well, you get the idea now :)
16:47	lancepantz	alexyk: when did this happen?
16:48	alexyk	lancepantz: a while back, six months or so
16:48	ninjudd	cryptic_star: cool. still prerelease, so let me know if you have problems (either here or in #cake.clj)
16:48	alexyk	jetbrains.org
16:48	LauJensen	ninjudd: how incompatible are you guys with lein ?
16:48	cryptic_star	@ninjudd definitely, I'll let you know
16:48	cryptic_star	thanks all
16:52	lancepantz	LauJensen: the main thing is we do not allow you to change the directory structure
16:52	lancepantz	you have to use /src /test /lib
16:52	LauJensen	so lein plugins etc work with cake as well ?
16:52	lancepantz	and tasks are incompatible as well
16:52	lancepantz	they do not
16:52	LauJensen	ok
16:53	LauJensen	Do you export pom files?
16:53	lancepantz	yes
16:55	LauJensen	Sounds like you've guys have put a lot of work into this, I look forward to taking it out for a spin
16:57	herdrick	hi - is there a function for writing objects? i.e. making a representation of them that the reader can read?
16:57	ninjudd	LauJensen: awesome! we'd love to hear your input once you take a look
16:58	LauJensen	ninjudd: If I can get your stuff to run on all 3 OS's I expect to blog about it - if I have critique I'll come to you guys directly :)
17:09	alexyk	dnolen: so in case there's no selection, something better should be pringted by eval than a giant error roll :)
17:09	alexyk	printed
17:10	raek	herdrick: I've heard some discussions about a reader syntax for records
17:11	herdrick	raek: ok
17:11	raek	it's probably somewhere in the google group archives
17:11	raek	that is all I know
17:11	herdrick	but how about a function for writing the objects that already have a readable syntax?
17:12	raek	for most simple cases (especially when you don't need type polymorphism) maps are sufficient
17:12	raek	what do you mean by "object"?
17:12	herdrick	how to write this: ["foo" ["bar" "bazz" 3]] for example (using a function that works on other things, too)
17:12	raek	there is the pr* family
17:12	LauJensen	,(prn {:one 2 :three 4})
17:13	raek	pr prn
17:13	clojurebot	{:one 2, :three 4}
17:13	raek	etc
17:13	raek	it is similar to the __repr__ of python
17:13	herdrick	right, those write to System.out
17:13	raek	yes, you can use pr-str to get it in a string
17:13	LauJensen	herdrick: they write to out which can be rebound
17:13	LauJensen	,(with-out-str (prn {:one 2 :three 4}))
17:13	clojurebot	"{:one 2, :three 4}\n"
17:13	raek	or wrap it in (binding [out some-other-print-writer] ...)
17:14	LauJensen	~source with-out-str
17:14	LauJensen	Which is what goes on there
17:14	raek	pr* works for all clojure data structures and scalars
17:14	herdrick	ok, that's what I'm looking for, thanks folks. shouldn't that be a core function?
17:14	raek	it is
17:15	herdrick	not prn
17:15	herdrick	prn surrounded with "with-out-str"
17:15	raek	,#'prn
17:15	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/prn
17:15	herdrick	that's what i suggest
17:16	chouser	,(pr-str ["foo" ["bar" "bazz" 3]])
17:16	clojurebot	"[\"foo\" [\"bar\" \"bazz\" 3]]"
17:16	raek	,(prn-str ["foo" ["bar" "bazz" 3]])
17:16	clojurebot	"[\"foo\" [\"bar\" \"bazz\" 3]]\n"
17:16	raek	the -n is for new line
17:30	Lajla	->(let [[I worship his shadow] '(+ 1 2 3)] (I worship his shadow))
17:30	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: Symbol
17:33	chouser	try (list + instead of '(+
17:36	bmaddy	Hi all. Does anyone have any good tutorial recommendations for getting clojure running on app engine?
17:37	bmaddy	There seems to be a few out there--just curious if there's one that's better than the others.
17:51	dnolen	alexyk: noted
17:56	apgwoz	bmaddy: http://compojureongae.posterous.com/
17:57	bmaddy	Hey, thanks! I'll check that one out! (gotta run right now though)
18:04	bortreb	whats the right way to use duck-streams -- I have (ns rlm.twitter (:use [clojure.contrib duck-streams def])) but I can't use the namespace at all wth clojure 1.2. it says spit already refers to: #'clojure.contrib.duck-streams/spit in namespace: rlm.twitter
18:05	apgwoz	bortreb: i've seen that warning too.
18:05	chouser	I always recommend against naked :use like that
18:05	bortreb	then what's the right way to use it
18:06	chouser	I generally prefer (:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :as ds :only []] [clojure.contrib.def :as def :only []])
18:07	chouser	the :only [] parts mean no names are brought into your namespace automatically (though you can add specific ones in those :only vectors if you want to)
18:07	chouser	the :as ds means you can say (ds/reader ...) or whatever.
18:07	chouser	though on 1.2 you might prefer clojure.io
18:08	apgwoz	chouser: is the issue that 1.2 has it's own `spit`?
18:08	bortreb	yes
18:09	apgwoz	cool. i figured as much, but didn't worry about it since it still worked.
18:09	chouser	(ns foo (:use [clojure.java.io :as io :only []])) .... (io/reader ...)
18:10	bortreb	I've recently found that it's extremely inconvienent to use clojure to show my friends anything, because I have to use all these namespaces everywhere. It also is a barrier to making short scripts when more than half the file us a bunch of header junk.
18:11	bortreb	I have my own custom namespace with everything loaded which helps a little
18:11	bortreb	but it's stiill hard to do scripting
18:11	bortreb	anyone else have this problem?
18:13	raek	bortreb: does this occur in clojure for you more often than in other languages?
18:14	bortreb	oh yeah -- a specific example is my friend and I working on an ardunio -- we needed to go through a file and do a semi complicated regex replace
18:14	technomancy	it happens more in clojure than ruby since in ruby if you're in a nested module you can reach into the outer modules relatively
18:15	bortreb	in perl I'd just put a nice short shebang line, OPEN the file, regex replace, and be done with it
18:15	technomancy	it would be like being in clojure.contrib.condition.foo and being able to refer to stuff in c.c.condition without qualification
18:16	bortreb	clojure is more elegant and would be nicer, but it's ~7-8 seconds of starting a repl, making sure the jars are in the right place, using duckstreams and str urils and repl utils
18:18	raek	correct me if i'm wrong, but I think that scripting was not a primary design goal for clojure
18:18	chouser	bortreb: yeah, clojure is not (currently) well suited for the kind of dash-one-off command-line scripts that perl always excelled at.
18:18	aria42	Anyone remember these neat reduce macros which people were posting a week or so back, which removed some of the boiler from a standard reduce?
18:18	aria42	Anyone have a link to a gist?
18:18	chouser	bortreb: but it doesn't have to remain that way...
18:19	polypus	recommended way of loading a clojure file from java?
18:19	raek	however, cljr should make it simpler to do one-off repl sessions that need libraries
18:19	danlarkin	aria42: the channel is logged, check le goog
18:19	technomancy	aria42: http://github.com/Seajure/reducate
18:19	bortreb	I don't see why not -- the actual, usefull content of the core of the program is actually shorter than perl
18:19	bortreb	but that stupid java-like verbose setup at the start just kills it
18:19	aria42	technomancy: thanks! exactly what I was thinking of
18:20	raek	cljr sort of has the same package model as perl, python and ruby -- a central repository of installed packages
18:20	bortreb	I always feel like I'm fumbling around whenever I'm "on the spot" and want to show someone something
18:21	raek	I heard that cake could be used to make short commands in a persistent jvm
18:21	raek	so there isn't the jvm startup delay between invokations
18:22	raek	(hrm, invoKe - invoCation)
18:22	polypus	best way to execute a clojure file from within java?
18:23	polypus	is there a best practice way of doing it that's unlikely to change out from under me?
18:23	bortreb	hmmmm I'll look into cake. it sounds like nailgun, but you run into problems when for example you're showing someone your cool clojure graphics dsl, something screws up, and you have to do killall -KILL java
18:24	bortreb	but maybe that's more a problem with the jvm itself
18:24	raek	bortreb: http://github.com/ninjudd/cake
18:24	raek	it hangs?
18:25	bortreb	but how bad would it be to have some ns option that is just "use EVERYTHING clojure can do right now" and be done with it
18:25	bortreb	the shebang line can be made short enough already
18:26	raek	I guess the problem lies in "EVERYTHING clojure can do"... which libraries does this include?
18:26	raek	...and which version?
18:26	raek	-s
18:26	bortreb	easy -- everything in contrib that's not duplicated in core
18:26	bortreb	if you want something else then you use it like normal
18:27	bortreb	(ns fast-script (:use :all))
18:27	raek	contib is not an official part of clojure, merely a collection of neat things
18:27	raek	I guess it would possible to do such a macro
18:29	raek	my experince with what I need from contrib seems to be quite different from yours
18:29	bortreb	I think such an extention could extend clojure in a whole direction, because
18:30	bortreb	then it would be shorter than the equivalent perl script
18:30	raek	the only contrib lib I use often is c.c.def
18:30	raek	for scripting, this makes sense...
18:31	raek	but I have a hunch that the majority of the clojure projects are not scripts, so this might be the reason the default is the way it is
18:32	raek	maybe one could do a (cljscript) macro that one puts at the top of the file, when one wants to quickly make scripts
18:33	bortreb	however, the impedance against "getting up and running" could be a lot lower and would make it more flexible
18:35	bortreb	how hard would it be to get something like this added to (ns)
18:35	raek	polypus: it can be done with some method of the clojure.lang.RT class, but maybe there is a more straightforward alternative nowadays
18:35	bortreb	something like (ns whatever :script)
18:36	bortreb	no I mean into the language itself
18:36	bortreb	it'd help a lot when explaining to people too; I could just say "put :script" at the top and now let's focus on the algorithms
18:37	raek	are there many algorithms that depend on contrib?
18:37	bortreb	one of the hardest things when starting out really is actually getting things to do something: opening files, writing to files, using urls, etc
18:38	bortreb	when you already don't know what you're doing, it's really hard to discover this stuff and figure out how to use it.
18:39	bortreb	at least, in my experience trying to teach people clojure
18:39	raek	I guess that the current philosophy is that only the least common denominator should be in clojure.core
18:40	raek	if one does not want to use io, it should not be loaded
18:40	raek	maybe this is a topic for the google group
18:40	bortreb	I'd love to bring it up! how do I do that?
18:41	raek	just post an email to the clojure gooogle group
18:41	polypus	raek: ty. just looking through the source, it looks like Compiler.loadFile does it
18:41	raek	join here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure
18:41	raek	polypus: don't know how stable that is, though
18:42	polypus	yeah. that was my concern. oh well. if it changes, i'll just have to change it
18:43	raek	I guess the gen-class thingy could be used too
18:44	polypus	actually, looks like RT.load might be a better bet
18:45	lancepantz	polypus: you will have to use genclass and compile it using core/compile before hand
18:45	lancepantz	afaik, you can't load a clj file in java as they require a different classloader
18:46	polypus	lancepantz: what will i have to compile?
18:46	lancepantz	the ns you wish to access from within java
18:47	polypus	lancepantz: really. that would suck
18:48	lancepantz	pretty sure
18:48	polypus	i'll mess around a bit and see what i can pull off
18:50	dpritchett	i saw a sticky note on a coworker's wall this morning that said "startrepl.sh"... I excitedly asked him what it meant and he told me it was a batch job to replicate his SQL Server database :(
19:36	polypus	anyone know with some certainty, how to load a clojure file from java, in such a way as to then have access to the vars and namespaces in that file and files required by that file through RT.var(ns, name)?
19:37	polypus	lancepantz suggested that i need to AOT the clojure, but wasn't 100% sure
19:37	arete	polypus: check out http://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/main.java, that's basically waht it does
19:39	polypus	thanks arete
19:40	arete	np, wrote a little application loader using those APIs, works great =)
20:01	bortreb	,(time (doall (pmap (fn [_] (Thread/sleep 500)) (range 10))))
20:01	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: Thread
20:02	bortreb	well, anyway , if you replace (range 10) with (doall (take 10 (iterate inc 0))) it takes twice as long, how could it possibly do that, given that pmap is a function?
20:24	drsnyder	i'm looking for help on a simple function to read in lines from a file and return a sequence
20:26	drsnyder	here is the function: (defn f-to-seq[file] (with-open [rdr (java.io.BufferedReader. (java.io.FileReader. file))] (let [seq (line-seq rdr)] seq)))
20:26	Raynes	(doc line-seq)
20:26	clojurebot	"([rdr]); Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader."
20:26	drsnyder	when I run this in the repl, i get java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.IOException: Stream closed (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:27	dnolen	drsnyder: because you're using with-open, that's closing the file when it leaves scope.
20:27	Raynes	drsnyder: What version of Clojure are you using?
20:28	drsnyder	1.1.0
20:28	dnolen	bindings and lazy-sequences are not designed to interact together
20:28	drsnyder	oh, interesting. if i understand correctly, you need to read it into a sequence and return that
20:30	drsnyder	any hints on how to do that?
20:32	tomoj	(doall (line-seq rdr)) would work
20:32	dnolen	tomoj: that still won't close the file.
20:32	dnolen	that's why line-seq takes a reader and not a file
20:33	dnolen	you need to hold onto to close it yourself when you've exhausted the sequence
20:34	tomoj	couldn't you do (with-open [file (FileReader.) rdr (BufferedReader.)] (doall (line-seq rdr))) ?
20:34	tomoj	er
20:34	tomoj	except pass the file param, obviously
20:34	dnolen	tomoj: oh sorry I misunderstoood, yes yes, if you want to just read the whole file at once.
20:35	tomoj	but that's already implemented in contrib anyway
20:36	tomoj	(doall (clojure.contrib.io/read-lines "filename")) ?
20:36	dnolen	drsnyder: one clever trick would be to put the file handle on the lazy sequence as metadata I think. then when the sequence is exhausted you can get the metadata and close the file.
20:36	dnolen	this way you get all the benefits of lazy file processing
20:37	drsnyder	giving doall a try
20:38	tomoj	dnolen: so someone calling f-to-seq opens up the metadata of the return value to find the file handle to close?
20:39	dnolen	tomoj: I think that would work.
20:39	tomoj	agreed
20:39	tomoj	but isn't it a bit strange?
20:39	dnolen	I never tried this myself but it just occured to me.
20:39	tomoj	it sounds like using metadata to simulate multiple return values
20:39	dnolen	tomoj: why, if you want to process the sequence efficiently?
20:39	drsnyder	this worked: (defn f-to-seq[file] (with-open [rdr (java.io.BufferedReader. (java.io.FileReader. file))] (doall (line-seq rdr))))
20:40	dnolen	memory efficiently. doall puts the whole file in memory.
20:40	tomoj	but why not return [the-seq the-file-handle]
20:41	tomoj	then people will have to deliberately ignore part of the return value instead of being able to just let file handles rot away in metaspace
20:43	dnolen	tomoj: ah, true. auto closing line-seq would be nice, eh?
20:44	tomoj	isn't that clojure.contrib.io/read-lines?
20:45	tomoj	drsnyder: but that will still leave the FileReader open, won't it?
20:45	tomoj	maybe I misunderstood dnolen
20:45	drsnyder	tomoj: i don't think so
20:45	drsnyder	tomoj: i think with-open will close it when you leave scope
20:46	tomoj	with-open closes the BufferedReader
20:46	tomoj	does the BufferedReader then close the FileReader itself?
20:47	tomoj	fairly easy to test, will do
20:48	dnolen	tomoj: oh yeah, yr right read-lines. my ignorance of contrib is sometimes profound.
20:48	tomoj	it looks like it does close the FileReader
20:49	tomoj	so that will work if you are OK with having the whole file in memory at once
20:52	dnolen	tomoj: read-lines is lazy
20:53	tomoj	so is line-seq?
20:54	dnolen	tomoj: but it doesn't close once exhausted
20:54	tomoj	exactly
20:55	tomoj	you wanted a non-lazy autoclosing line-seq?
20:56	dnolen	drsnyder: clojure.contrib.io/read-lines might be what you want, it'll close the file for you once you've read all the lines from the file. you can avoid the doall
21:03	tomoj	as long as you actually are sure to read the whole file
21:12	dsantiago	dnolen, I was checking out your textmate/cake integration earlier. I don't know much about how Textmate bundles work, but do you think it will be possible to have a persistent repl you can type into, instead of a window that pops up?
21:13	dnolen	dsantiago: hmm ... not sure how that would work, also pretty un-TextMate-ish, right? I usually startup a REPL in Terminal.app and keep it open.
21:13	dnolen	dsantiago: thx for trying it out.
21:14	dsantiago	Oh, well, sending stuff to a repl in a terminal would be even better, but I didn't think that was possible from the way it worked.
21:16	dnolen	dsantiago: I'm open to ideas. Just don't know how to get the output to actually appear in a REPL in Terminal.app. I've never used a TextMate bundle that worked liked that.
21:16	dnolen	dsantiago: to be fair, Emacs isn't much better, you get the output of eval last sexpr in the mode line
21:17	dsantiago	Oh, OK. I'd love to use TextMate, but I've gotta have that repl integration from Slime, so I can send it a function I'm working on, and then run some test code by hand at the repl that uses it.
21:18	dnolen	dsantiago: then why not keep the Terminal.app REPL open? That's what I've been doing. Eval in TextMate, test code REPL in Terminal.app
21:19	dsantiago	Hm, I'm not sure I understand. What I want is something like C-c C-c and C-c C-k in Slime.
21:19	dnolen	dsantiago: C-c C-k loads the whole file. You get that in TextMate with Shift-Command-K
21:20	dsantiago	Right, but it just gives you the output in the popup window, it doesn't send it to the repl in the Terminal.
21:20	dnolen	dsantiago: it does get sent
21:20	dnolen	dsantiago: just cake repl, and all your code will be there
21:20	dsantiago	Oh, hm. I did, it wasn't working.
21:20	dsantiago	I must have something wrong.
21:20	dsantiago	That was what I thought was supposed to happen, but it wasn't.
21:21	dnolen	dsantiago: you have to make sure you're in the right namespace for one. if you have a name filed in a project, you need to switch into that namespace in the REPL
21:21	dnolen	s/name filed/named file
21:22	dnolen	dsangtiago: at some point I'll look into making this magically work with AppleScript or something, but that's not a high priority. it's early days for this project :D
21:28	dnolen	dsantiagio: cause it check if there's isn't a filename yet
21:28	dnolen	eval in user ns if no path to file
21:28	dnolen	dsantiago: http://github.com/swannodette/textmate-clojure/blob/cake/TODO.txt
21:28	dnolen	those are my immediate plans
21:28	dsantiago	Oh, hm. Maybe I should file that then.
21:30	dnolen	dsantiago: please do. I'd like to fulfill a reasonable amount of the slime expectations.
21:32	tomoj	dnolen: are you planning to write the sexp stuff inside textmate or using an external library somehow?
21:33	dnolen	tomoj: the bundle is basically pure Clojure. the bundle just executes clojure scripts by submitting them to cake
21:33	dnolen	tomoj: means people don't have an excuse for not contributing :D
21:33	dsantiago	How much control is there over the windows TextMate pops up?
21:33	tomoj	nifty
21:33	dnolen	dsantiago: unknown, this is my first remotely serious bundle.
21:34	dsantiago	OK, I know even less about it. :)
21:34	dnolen	dsantiago: I believe it's a webkit window, so some JS might do the trick. will investiage.
21:34	tomoj	textmate 2 didn't come out while I was away, did it?
21:35	dnolen	tomoj: nope. I'm not holding my breath either. but that doesn't seem to phase the gigantic userbase.
21:36	dsantiago	Oh, I just meant preventing it from appearing.
21:36	dnolen	basically why I left for Emacs. Emacs caught up.
21:38	dnolen	dsantiago: it's something for me to look into. that some people just don't want that window and they should be able to suppress it. of course it easy for you just to tweak the bundle. Just discard the output of the commands you don't care about in the Bundle Editor for the Clojure mode. Of course this will break for you until things settle down as new versions roll out, unless you setup a fork.
21:43	dsantiago	OK, thanks dnolen. I'll see what I can do.
21:50	dnolen	dsantiago: thx for the feedback and trying it out.
21:56	tomoj	dnolen: you left for emacs, but you're building a TM bundle?
21:57	dnolen	tomoj: yup. because Emacs and Java IDEs are just too much of a hurdle for most people. I think good TM integration would get a lot more people to try it out. And from what response I've gotten seems like people unwillingly left TM for Emacs because of Clojure.
22:04	tomoj	admirable cause
22:05	Raynes	Too bad TM isn't cross-platform. I can't even try it.
22:05	dnolen	Raynes: eh, if you're already on Emacs I don't see the point ;) I'm just trying to widen the potential audience.
22:06	Raynes	Still.
22:30	vIkSiT	hi all
22:30	vIkSiT	if i've got a list like ("a" "b") - is there a way to combine all the elements (which are strings), separated with spaces?
22:31	vIkSiT	for instance, (apply str ("a" "b")) results in "ab"
22:31	vIkSiT	(and i'm looking to get "a b")
22:34	spewn	,(apply str (interpose \space ["a" "b"]))
22:34	clojurebot	"a b"
22:35	lancepantz	there is also a join function in contrib.string, but i always use interpose as well
22:35	vIkSiT	ah
22:35	vIkSiT	thanks, let me check it out!
23:53	bmaddy	Has anyone else gotten compojure to work?
23:57	arbscht	bmaddy: yes. and you'll find some more at #compojure :)
23:58	bmaddy	Oooh, good call--I'll head over there for those questions. :)