#clojure – 2010-08-05

2010-08-05

01:14	zkim	anybody have a good temp directory macro?
01:17	talios	nope - even in java I don't. I tend to use File.createTempFile() - then delete it, then mkdir it.
01:18	talios	why theres no createTempDir() method I don't no - there might be on the forthcoming java7 APIs tho
01:18	zkim	got it, thanks anyway
01:51	Slant	Is there a streaming JSON API?
01:53	hiredman	streaming in what sense?
01:53	hiredman	in that it can read and write to io streams?
01:53	hiredman	all json libs I know of can do that
01:54	Slant	In that it doesn't consume all the data off the stream and convert to objects in-mass.
01:54	Slant	In that I can read the objects as they come off the stream, incrementally.
01:55	hiredman	clojure-json will read one json form from a stream at a time
01:57	Slant	Is that danlarkin's github one? Or the one in contrib?
02:00	zkim	talios: ugly but works, temp directory macro: http://gist.github.com/509311
02:00	hiredman	Slant: github
02:01	hiredman	the one from contrib might too, never used it
02:01	lancepantz_	member:Slant: i'd check out clj-json while you're at it's something like 20x faster than the pure clojure implementations
02:02	slyrus	lancepantz_: that's depressing
02:05	lancepantz_	i'm anxious to see if closer ever passes java in performance
02:05	Slant	Ahh, it uses Jackson.
02:05	lancepantz_	yep
02:05	lancepantz_	is jackson native?
02:05	Slant	That's pure-Java.
02:05	slyrus	lancepantz_: closer?
02:05	Slant	No. Jackson is pure-Java.
02:05	lancepantz_	clojure :)
02:05	Slant	Also, it's incremental.
02:05	Slant	Sweet.
02:05	Slant	That might work perfectly, thanks!
02:05	lancepantz_	np
02:05	slyrus	passing is one thing, 20x worse is another
02:06	Slant	http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-json/blob/master/src/clj/clj_json/core.clj - Small.
02:06	tomoj	why is pure-java 20x faster than clojure? :(
02:07	lancepantz_	there's a jvm folder in there too, to be fair
02:07	Bahman	Hi all!
02:07	lancepantz_	but mcgranaghan does write insanely good code
02:09	Slant	That's true.
02:10	Slant	Playing with that now.
02:10	Slant	Since its lazy seq seems to be exactly what I wanted.
02:29	notsonerdysunny	what is a good symbolic-math library for clojure?
02:30	notsonerdysunny	I want to do basic algebra,differentiation, integration and some tensor-calculus
02:38	Slant	notsonerdysunny, free?
02:38	notsonerdysunny	free would be good .. but paid is also ok
02:47	SandGorgon	notsonerdysunny, try http://data-sorcery.org/contents/ (Incanter).
02:49	Slant	How are module constants usually defined?
02:49	Slant	notsonerdysunny, or Clojure w/ Mathematica?
02:51	Slant	(def CONSTANT value) ?
02:52	tomoj	don't use uppercase
02:52	Slant	Right.
02:52	tomoj	but, yeah
02:52	Slant	Of course. Clojure everything is immutable.
02:53	tomoj	incanter can't do any symbolic math, can it?
02:55	tomoj	technomancy: ok, harmless is good :)
03:02	Slant	So only defns and not defs enter a namespace when you use?
03:03	raek	no, defs are public by default too
03:03	raek	there is a lot of def* macros ending in a hyphen that does the same as the un-huphened, but makes them private
03:04	raek	e.g. defn and defn-
03:04	Slant	But for variables?
03:04	raek	clojure.contrib.def has some extra macros
03:04	Slant	(def some-internal-helper-constant 1234)
03:04	raek	(defvar- internal-constant 1234 "the number of foos in bar")
03:05	raek	you can also do this with metadata
03:05	Slant	Ahh.
03:05	raek	(def ^{:private true, :doc "some docs"} name value)
03:05	raek	the defvar and defvar- forms are in c.c.def
03:06	Slant	Gotcha.
03:06	Slant	How are def and defvar different
03:06	Slant	?
03:06	raek	values that are intended to be rebounded usually have earmuffs
03:06	raek	defvar has a dosctring arg
03:07	raek	but that's pretty much it :)
03:07	raek	(def default-something 1)
03:07	raek	(binding [default-something 2] ...)
03:08	raek	but save the earmuffs for things that should be dynamically rebound
03:17	Slant	(Is there a way to local mirror clojuredocs or some other doc site?)
03:17	Slant	I'm going on an airplane soon and would like to take them with me. :-D
03:18	raek	the http://clojure.github.com/clojure/ is generated with autodoc
03:19	raek	maybe there is a build task for generating the docs html in the clojure and contrib source
03:21	raek	Slant: http://tomfaulhaber.github.com/autodoc/
03:21	raek	you should be able to run that on the sources
03:23	raek	I haven't tried it though... so take that witha grain of salt
03:28	Slant	ghuhughg. Lein repl.
03:28	Slant	So painful sometimes. One pair of mismatched parens, and it's crash city.
03:36	Derander	Slant: give me paredit or give me death
03:38	raek	"I’m now convinced that choosing a language based on how easy it is to read or write is a very bad idea. What if we chose musical instruments based on how easy they are to play? Everyone would playing kazoos. You can’t think deeply about music if all you know is a kazoo."
03:38	raek	(from http://blog.fogus.me/2010/08/03/take-5-brenton-ashworth/ )
03:41	lancepantz_	i thought that was very insightful as well
03:42	lancepantz_	anyone know of any resources for documentation on the innards of the slime protocol
03:43	lancepantz_	it looks like i uses some type of generic sexp
03:43	lancepantz_	but i cant find any solid docs
03:47	lpetit	lancepantz_: when I started the work on ccw (the eclipse plugin for clojure), I wanted to use the swank/slime protocol, and rewrite a client in "pure clojure". Alas, I searched very hard, but the only answers I got were: "no doc, you should reverse engineer". Since that I've turned my back to swank/slime :-( and implemented a quick proprietary solution for ccw.
03:48	lpetit	lancepantz_: but maybe I've not searched hard enough, of course.
03:48	lancepantz_	:(
03:50	lancepantz_	i suppose im kinda taking a shot at what you did
03:50	lancepantz_	but slightly different
03:52	lpetit	yes ?
03:53	lancepantz_	i'm working on this new project that everyone hates :)
03:53	lancepantz_	it has a persistent jvm
03:53	lancepantz_	with the persistent jvm, one could theoretically make slime calls to it through the command line
03:54	lancepantz_	david nolen suggested that it could be used to get clojure integration into text mate
03:54	lancepantz_	so i'm trying to create the proper abstractions that will pass command line options into swank
03:56	lpetit	lancepantz_: I would love the idea of eventually switching to a common standard for accessing clojure envs remotely.
03:57	lancepantz_	yeah, it would work for any idea, even vim
03:57	lancepantz_	you can see what we have at http://github.com/ninjudd/cake
03:58	lancepantz_	a good example is just to do cake eval '(+1 1)'
03:58	lancepantz_	you'll get 2 at your command prompt
03:58	lpetit	lancepantz_: but if it's from the command line only, it's a shame : will be OS dependent, more difficult to integrate into an existing IDE written in clojure/java, etc.
03:59	lpetit	I'll look at it later (I'm in my workplace right now), thanks for the input
03:59	lancepantz_	what would be better?
03:59	lancepantz_	i mean a socket would be the same thing that swank already provides
04:01	lpetit	lancepantz_: if it works via socket it's ok. But will you provide the "client" part of slime/swank ? That's what I'm interested in, not just "yet another remote text based repl implementation" ;-)
04:02	lancepantz_	well, obviously the client would have to be build for each ide
04:03	lancepantz_	maybe i'm missing something, why do ide's not connect to swank as it exists now?
04:05	lpetit	lancepantz_: as for ccw, it's because I don't know how to speak with swank. If there was a proper documentation, it'll be ok. The only "API" for slime is in emacs lisp
04:06	lancepantz_	i see
04:06	lancepantz_	yeah, it looks pretty hairy
04:07	lancepantz_	state machines and automatons
04:07	lancepantz_	maybe i should just create a simpler protocol for evals, documentation, tab completion etc
04:08	cais2002	hi, for string processing like finding occurrence of substring, should I use the java function directly or are there some library in clojure syntax?
04:09	lancepantz_	cais2002: clojure.string exists, but most of the time the java methods work best
04:09	lancepantz_	or is it still in contrib, it may be clojure.contrib.string
04:12	cais2002	lancepantz_: I saw contrib.string, but there is even an author associated with it. a bit skeptical
04:12	cais2002	there are also str-utils and str-utils2
04:12	lancepantz_	contrib.string is what you want
04:12	lancepantz_	str-utilsx was deprecated in 1.2
04:13	lancepantz_	and merged into contrib.string
04:13	lancepantz_	it's maintained by the core commiters
04:14	lpetit	lancepantz_: look at what is done in enclojure for remote ccw environment invocation. In the mailing list, you'll see that Eric Thorsen posted about it: in order to allow the future unification of this for both enclojure and counterclockwise, he made a proper repository for the client and server code
04:14	lancepantz_	lpetit: oh wow, thanks for the lead, looking into it now
04:14	lpetit	lancepantz_: oh, no, it's more for REPL stuff than for "IDE-backend purpose" stuff. Or maybe I'm wrong and it can serve both
04:15	lancepantz_	we've got our repl with tab completion and readline support :D
04:15	lpetit	lancepantz_: I invite you to ask on the enclojure ml to get precisions on what they use for "IDE-backend communication purpose"
04:15	lpetit	if that's the only thing you want, then yes, this part is solved for you :)
04:16	lancepantz_	so the enclojure mailing list
04:16	lancepantz_	guess we had some duplicated work there then
04:18	lancepantz_	oo, that repl does look nice
04:18	lancepantz_	we don't even get syntax highlighting in the slime repl
04:25	Slant	Derander, paredit?
04:26	Derander	emacs mode that makes paren matching trivial
04:26	Derander	and lets you do operations on sexps
04:27	Slant	Ahh.
04:30	lancepantz_	Slant: you have to use paraedit
04:30	lancepantz_	biggest single productivity boost i found for working with clojure
04:31	Derander	highlight-parenthesis-mode is my second favorite ;-)
04:31	lancepantz_	i use rainbow parens too
04:32	Slant	Sadly, I'm a vim user.
04:32	Slant	Stuck in that ghetto.
04:32	Slant	Trying out vimclojure. Trying to get the repl mode up and running.
04:32	Derander	I learned emacs for clojure
04:32	Derander	it can be done!
04:32	Derander	still love vim though.
04:33	Slant	Derander, I don't have years to commit just to get to an equal level. I think in vim, you know?
04:33	Slant	I respect emacs.
04:33	Derander	yeah.
04:33	lancepantz_	i used to be, i just bit the bullet and switched
04:33	Derander	I had that problem for like 8 months :-P
04:33	Derander	now I can work equally well in either with a few minutes to adjust fingers
04:33	lancepantz_	i dropped vim altogether
04:33	lancepantz_	after about a week i was comfortable
04:34	Derander	I had to learn elisp so that I could get emacs to a usable state for ruby/rails coding
04:34	Derander	mumamo didn't work very well, so I had to figure out how to get rhtml-mode working, and then that was insufficient so I had to learn how to customize syntax highlighting, etc.
04:37	Slant	Too many yaks, at the moment.
04:37	Slant	I'll play with vimclojure. Get to hate it. Learn me some clojure.
04:37	Slant	Then switch. :_D
04:37	Derander	I am a professional yak shaver.
04:43	lpetit	Slant: vimclojure is good enough for a respectable number of users. No need to blame the concurrency to make your preferred choice much appealing.
04:43	lpetit	Slant: e.g. chouser, one of the co-authors of "Joy of Clojure", is using vim / vimclojure, and likes it, AFAIK
04:54	cais2002	suppose I want to aggregate members of 2 different namespaces into one, is there a way to do it?
05:00	Slant	cais2002, use both?
05:00	raek	there is clojure.contrib.ns-utils/immigrate
05:00	raek	but there are some issues
05:00	cais2002	,(doc immigrate)
05:00	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.ns-utils/immigrate;[[& ns-names]]; Create a public var in this namespace for each public var in the namespaces named by ns-names. The created vars have the same name, root binding, and metadata as the original except that their :ns metadata value is this namespace."
05:01	cais2002	raek: that seems to be the perfect one I need
05:01	raek	it creates new vars that are not the same vars as the immigrated ones
05:01	raek	it works for simple cases
05:02	raek	dynamic rebinding of the var in the ns that was immigrated to does not affect the one in the namespace that was immigrated from, and vice versa
05:30	Slant	What's wrong with this? (ns none.search
05:30	Slant	(:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :only reader]])
05:30	Slant	(:require (clj-json [core :as json])))
05:30	Slant	Are the vectors not correct?
05:31	Slant	(remove the excess ])
05:31	Slant	(Bad copy-pasta)
05:33	hoeck	(:use [foo.bar :only [baz]])
05:35	Slant	hoeck, only vectors? Not lists?
05:35	hoeck	not sure, but definitely something seq-like after :only :)
05:36	Slant	And to the :use ?
05:36	Slant	That is (:use ?foo.bar :only [baz]?)
05:36	Slant	It is always supposed to be a vector?
05:38	Slant	Ugh.
05:38	hoeck	Slant: yes
05:38	Slant	I keep getting these IllegalStateExceptions about defining "spit"
05:38	hoeck	at least using () dos not work for me
05:38	Slant	Just from using duck-streams.
05:38	Slant	I thought doing :only [reader] would solve it.
05:38	Slant	Apparently not.
05:39	raek	Slant: do a (ns-unmap 'you-ns 'spit)
05:39	hoeck	maybe you evaluated the ns before without the :only option?
05:39	Slant	hoeck, even after I restart the interpreter...
05:42	hoeck	which clojure are you using? for me, spit is in core
05:42	hoeck	,spit
05:42	clojurebot	#<core$spit clojure.core$spit@24fade>
05:42	hoeck	and not in duck-streams anymore
05:43	hoeck	(ns foo.bar (:refer-clojure :exclude [spit]) .... ) should help then
05:44	Slant	hoeck, whatever lein pulled down.
05:45	hoeck	then its probably some snaphsot :)
05:45	Slant	Yay. :-D
05:46	hoeck	if you eval spit on the repl, and the result looks like the one from clojurebot above, use the refer-clojure :exclude form to avoid refering to spit in your namespace
05:52	Slant	Got it cleaned up.
05:52	Slant	On to the next problem. :-D
05:53	Slant	I tried doing a (drop 1 (reader ...))
05:53	Slant	But, since a reader isn't a sequence, of course that doesn't work.
05:54	Slant	Ideas on alternate ways of accomplishing the same? I'm trying to drop the first (and later, the last) bytes of a bufferedreader.
05:55	cais2002	is the naming convention to use capitalization for protocol name?
05:55	raek	Slant: you'll gave to make a sequence in some what
05:56	raek	*way
05:56	raek	for example
05:58	raek	(defn byte-seq [input-stream] (lazy-seq (let [value (.read input-stream)] (if (= value -1) nil (cons val (byte-seq input-stream))))))
05:58	raek	that takes a InputStream, not a Reader
05:58	raek	Streams = bytes, Readers/Writers = characters
05:59	raek	a similar thing for characters:
06:01	raek	(defn character-seq [reader] (lazy-seq (let [value (.read reader)] (if (= value -1) nil (cons (char val) (character-seq reader))))))
06:01	raek	s/(char val)/(char value)/
06:01	sexpbot	(defn character-seq [reader] (lazy-seq (let [value (.read reader)] (if (= value -1) nil (cons ((char value)) (character-seq reader))))))
06:02	Slant	Gotcha.
06:02	Slant	Hmm.
06:02	raek	cais2002: as far as I can tell, yes
06:03	raek	this is probably because they generate java interfaces
06:03	raek	hrm, sexpbot added an exta pair of parens in that substitution...
06:03	tomoj	anyone using org-babel with clojure?
06:03	Slant	raek, character-seq isn't in contrib or anything? Seems like something that must be ran into often.
06:03	tomoj	looks like it requires swank-clojure.el :(
06:05	raek	there is line-seq, but I don't think the ones I wrote are there
06:06	raek	I'm making a small library that splits these things in two parts: Sources that kan take one thing at a time, and source-seq that lazily takes item from a Source and present them as a seqeuence
06:06	raek	just because I find myself writing these lazy sequences every now and theen
06:09	raek	a slightly outdated version of it http://gist.github.com/460527
06:09	raek	and a less outdated api reference http://raek.se/stream-seq/
06:11	Slant	Very interesting. Thanks.
06:11	Slant	Good to read good code right now. :-)
06:13	raek	I don't know if this lib will simplify things in the end
06:13	raek	but experiments are good. some of them fails, but that's fine.
06:38	LauJensen	Good morning all
06:39	esj	salute !
06:39	neotyk	'morning
07:09	lpetit	hello
07:13	lpetit	LauJensen: Hello, La-ô
07:14	LauJensen	Bonjour mon petit :)
07:14	lpetit	LauJensen: everytime Christophe pronounces your first name, I don't understand how he's talking about, 'cause I'm not used to pronounce it "La-ô" :-)
07:15	LauJensen	Well - You guys are french, so Im very forgiving when you fail to pronounce an ancient danish name :)
07:15	lpetit	:)
07:45	lpetit	~source clojure.lang.Delay
08:05	aldebrn	Good morning all
08:05	LauJensen	Morning
08:06	aldebrn	Forgive me if this is the second time I've asked this but, I'm looking for a "Java for Clojure/Lisp programmers" resource because my attempts to learn as little Java as possible to use existing Java libraries (something I only consider thanks to Clojure <3) is not working, and traditional Java pedagogy seems to be overkill for this
08:06	aldebrn	Advice?
08:06	clojurebot	live every week, like it is shark week!
08:10	rhudson	aldebrn: The book "Java in a Nutshell" might be a good resource. The first part of the book is a quick introduction to the language. The bulk of it (and it's bulky!) is a compact reference to the standard libraries. (When I'm trying to get the lay of the land, this is often more useful than javadocs.) There's also references to the standard tools.
08:12	rhudson	I think a lot of Java intros try to tell you how to program in Java, which isn't what you want.
08:14	rhudson	The indexes are also good. If you see some mention of, say, "annotations", it's easy to find the part of the book that explains what that's about.
08:16	aldebrn	Great, thanks rhudson
08:19	rhudson	The latest published edition is for Java 5, but the language and library differences between that an the current Java 6 are really minor.
08:25	aldebrn	Wow, it is a big book
08:26	aldebrn	'the Java language has proved popular with programmers, who typically find it a pleasure to work with Java after struggling with more difficult, less powerful languages' <-- this should be good :) thanks again rhudson
08:28	bortreb	hi everyone
08:30	bortreb	anyone have a good emacs color scheme for hacking during the day? I use zenburn at night but it's not working too well in the sun.
08:32	tomoj	are you going to hook it up so that it auto-switches based on sunrise/sunset data for your current location? ;)
08:35	raek	day hacking => black on white, high contrast?
08:35	bortreb	yep
08:35	bortreb	I was thinking about making it switch depending on the time :)
08:35	raek	nice
08:36	raek	I use a variant on a scheme called something like dark-tango and the default emacs colors if I need something more bright
08:37	tomoj	I just a couple hours ago switched from my custom dark to the default emacs
08:38	sid3k	is the function named "refer" function deprecated?
08:38	tomoj	nope
08:38	bortreb	but is there an uber cool there like zenburn except light?
08:39	tomoj	-> (:deprecated (meta #'refer))
08:39	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: (#'clojure.core/refer)
08:39	tomoj	oh, yeah
08:40	raek	,(:deprecated (meta #'refer))
08:40	clojurebot	nil
08:41	raek	,(:deprecated (meta #'add-classpath)
08:41	clojurebot	EOF while reading
08:41	raek	,(:deprecated (meta #'add-classpath))
08:41	clojurebot	"1.1"
08:44	raek	;;; Color theme based on Tango Palette. Based on a color theme by danranx@gmail.com
08:44	raek	(defun color-theme-dark-clojure ()
08:44	raek	"A color theme based on Tango Palette."
08:44	raek	(interactive)
08:44	raek	(color-theme-install
08:44	raek	'(color-theme-dark-clojure
08:44	raek	((background-color . "#2e3436")
08:44	raek	(background-mode . dark)
08:44	raek	(border-color . "#888a85")
08:44	raek	(cursor-color . "#fce94f")
08:45	raek	(foreground-color . "#eeeeec")
08:45	raek	(mouse-color . "#8ae234"))
08:45	raek	((help-highlight-face . underline)
08:45	raek	(ibuffer-dired-buffer-face . font-lock-function-name-face)
08:45	raek	(ibuffer-help-buffer-face . font-lock-comment-face)
08:45	raek	(ibuffer-hidden-buffer-face . font-lock-warning-face)
08:45	raek	(ibuffer-occur-match-face . font-lock-warning-face)
08:45	raek	(ibuffer-read-only-buffer-face . font-lock-type-face)
08:45	raek	(ibuffer-special-buffer-face . font-lock-keyword-face)
08:45	raek	(ibuffer-title-face . font-lock-type-face))
08:45	raek	(border ((t (:background "#888a85"))))
08:45	raek	(fringe ((t (:background "grey10"))))
08:45	raek	(mode-line ((t (:foreground "#eeeeec" :background "#555753"))))
08:45	raek	(region ((t (:background "#555753"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-builtin-face ((t (:foreground "#729fcf"))))
08:45	tomoj	bad raek
08:45	raek	(font-lock-comment-face ((t (:foreground "#888a85"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-constant-face ((t (:foreground "#8ae234"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-doc-face ((t (:foreground "#888a85"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-keyword-face ((t (:foreground "#729fcf"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-string-face ((t (:foreground "#ad7fa8"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-type-face ((t (:foreground "#8ae234"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-variable-name-face ((t (:foreground "#eeeeec"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-warning-face ((t (:bold t :foreground "#f57900"))))
08:45	raek	(font-lock-function-name-face ((t (:foreground "#edd400"))))
08:46	raek	(comint-highlight-input ((t (:italic t :bold t))))
08:46	raek	(comint-highlight-prompt ((t (:foreground "#8ae234"))))
08:46	bozhidar	grrrr
08:46	raek	(isearch ((t (:background "#f57900" :foreground "#2e3436"))))
08:46	raek	(isearch-lazy-highlight-face ((t (:foreground "#2e3436" :background "#e9b96e"))))
08:46	raek	(show-paren-match-face ((t (:foreground "#2e3436" :background "#73d216"))))
08:46	bozhidar	won't someone kick him already...
08:46	raek	(show-paren-mismatch-face ((t (:background "#ad7fa8" :foreground "#2e3436"))))
08:46	raek	(minibuffer-prompt ((t (:foreground "#729fcf" :bold t))))
08:46	raek	(info-xref ((t (:foreground "#729fcf"))))
08:46	Chousuke	eep :P
08:46	raek	(info-xref-visited ((t (:foreground "#ad7fa8"))))
08:46	raek	)))
08:46	raek	(provide 'color-theme-dark-clojure)
08:46	raek	whoa!
08:46	raek	SOOOOOORYYYY!
08:46	raek	am I banned?
08:46	raek	opera does not copy text when I select it every time
08:46	Chousuke	nah, :P
08:46	tomoj	heh
08:46	bozhidar	raek: haven't you heard of a paste service ;-)
08:46	tomoj	your irc client should warn you or require you to press enter after pasting
08:47	Chousuke	irssi does that. it has saved me a number of times
08:47	raek	my usual routine is: select URL in browser, middleclick in terminal
08:47	raek	however
08:47	sid3k	opera is worse than even internet explorer
08:47	raek	opera does not always copy the text into the PRIMARY buffer
08:47	sid3k	p.s: 6
08:47	tomoj	erc just requires you to press enter, so every once in a while I'll accidentally copy some of the history, including the ERC> prompt, and then not realize that I've pasted it :(
08:48	raek	so I end up pasting what was there since the last time
08:48	raek	well irssi does that too
08:48	raek	but I accidentally hit the wrong key
08:48	raek	somebody, please, revoke my IRC license...
08:48	tomoj	just cut a corner off it
08:49	AWizzArd	raek: I hope for you it was not copyrighted closed source code from your company :)
08:49	raek	man I feel so stupid...
08:50	tomoj	don't worry about it, no one was injured afaik
08:51	raek	I'm impressed that the server did not filter some of it
08:51	tomoj	looked like your client was rate-limiting?
08:51	raek	or maybe it did for you
08:51	bozhidar	I'm impressed nobody kicked you this long, this shows what a friendly environment is built around Clojure :-)
08:52	Chousuke	I haven't actually seen anyone ever get kicked from here :P
08:52	tomoj	are there even any ops?
08:52	Chousuke	maybe? I don't know.
08:52	bozhidar	I guess Rich might be an op, but he's quite busy to moderate an irc channel
08:53	raek	iirc, rich isn't an op
08:53	raek	but the channel owner still hangs here
08:53	bozhidar	who registered the channel?
08:54	raek	some nick beginning with j, i think. maybe chanserv can tell
08:54	tomoj	jcowan? :D
08:54	bozhidar	before I came to freenode I didn't use irc for 10 years
08:54	bozhidar	and I don't remember most of the commands
08:54	bozhidar	I used to know them all back in the day...
08:54	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, they can not get kicked, because this channel has no operator :)
08:55	bozhidar	I cannot even remember how to check the channel info...
08:55	tomoj	yep, /q chanserv info #clojure, it was jcowan
08:55	AWizzArd	Yes, but he logs in only every 10 months or so (:
08:55	rhudson	,seen jcowan
08:55	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: seen in this context
08:55	Chousuke	AWizzArd: chanserv can op people who have the rights though.
08:55	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, but it is only that one guy who registered this chan and never was seen again
08:56	Chousuke	heh
08:56	tomoj	never seen again?
08:56	AWizzArd	Okay, he joined some months ago, and for a few days chouser got ops
08:56	tomoj	I thought he was pretty active in the early days
08:56	AWizzArd	~seen jcowan
08:56	clojurebot	no, I have not seen jcowan
08:56	AWizzArd	Yes, back in 2008
08:56	Chousuke	if the channel ever gets overrun by trolls I suppose Freenode staff can transfer ownership to someone more active.
08:56	tomoj	.i jy. jbocre .iosai
08:57	AWizzArd	Anyway, I really don't see why operators are needed. Practically zero incidents, plus what Chousuke said.
08:57	AWizzArd	And there is always /ignore
08:57	bozhidar	it's better to be safe than sorry...
08:57	sid3k	hi all, I've upgraded my system and slime/swank doesn't work anymore. firstly it asks the "versions differ" message, if I say yes and continue, this time it doesn't execute the commands I type, when I press enter, it creates a new line
08:58	bozhidar	I remember some good forums ruined by lack of moderation
08:58	rhudson	We're all pretty moderate here
08:58	bozhidar	the community is still small, but this will certainly change
08:58	bozhidar	as Clojure is growing in popularity
08:59	bozhidar	and early adopters tend to be much more civilized ;-)
08:59	sid3k	bozhidar: I know lots of good not moderated communities, seriously
08:59	sid3k	not moderated and hq
08:59	bozhidar	sid3k: I know some as well, but accidents do happen
08:59	sid3k	btw, any ideas about the question I've asked?
08:59	bozhidar	and many people are idiots
08:59	sid3k	bozhidar: don't worry
09:00	tomoj	sid3k: are you M-x slime-connect ing?
09:00	sid3k	tomoj: yeah
09:00	tomoj	and the repl is in REPL mode?
09:00	tomoj	#emacs might be more help
09:00	sid3k	yeah, I see REPL, Autodoc text in the status line
09:01	sid3k	arright
09:01	raek	sid3k: which version of slime do you use? a recent?
09:01	sid3k	I guess
09:02	raek	I've seen that problem some time, but it disappeared when I updated slime and swank
09:02	sid3k	raek: version of the slime I'm running is 2010-07-21
09:03	raek	which version of swank?
09:03	raek	how did you start it? lein swank?
09:05	raek	also, if the encodnings of swank and slime don't match, it will freeze when you enter a non-ascii char
09:06	raek	but unless you fiddle with those settings, that should be fine
09:07	rhickey	has anyone tried the latest from git (yesterday)? esp people with custom IPersistentMap impls
09:09	raek	does one get equality-with-maps automatically whith records now?
09:09	sid3k	raek: sorry for long delay, I lost my internet connection
09:09	sid3k	my wank version is 20100404
09:09	sid3k	*swank
09:11	raek	sid3k: do you have [swank-clojure "1.2.0"] in you project.clj?
09:12	sid3k	raek: I've 1.2.1
09:12	raek	then I have no idea... :)
09:12	sid3k	arright
09:13	sid3k	I'm trying to fetch latest version of swank from its repo
09:13	raek	using [clojure "1.2.0-RC1"] also?
09:14	raek	my hunch is that this could be some version incompability issue
09:16	tomoj	sid3k: you're not using ELPA slime, I guess?
09:17	sid3k	elpa slime?
09:18	raek	...instaled from M-x package-list-packages
09:18	sid3k	yeah, I've installed it from debian testing repository
09:19	raek	http://tromey.com/elpa/install.html <-- instruction on how to install elpa
09:20	sid3k	I've got elpa already, now trying to reinstall slime
09:20	raek	then simply do a M-x package-list-packages, select slime and slime-repl and install
09:20	raek	ah, good
09:20	tomoj	if you have slime installed from somewhere else, things will go badly I think
09:21	sid3k	tomoj: bingo
09:21	sid3k	elpa displays slime as disabled
09:21	sid3k	but I've already remvoed slime
09:43	rhickey	aargh, the 2 Clojure talks at Java One are scheduled for the same time slot
10:06	LauJensen	:(
10:07	LauJensen	rhickey: perhaps a quick email to the organizers would help
10:08	rhickey	LauJensen: not likely
10:08	LauJensen	You wont know if you dont try :)
10:09	fogus	Perhaps they expect that people will attend both ... on different timelines. (groan)
10:11	sid3k	why clojure projects uses "com" in their directory names?
10:12	rhickey	LauJensen: not true: "Session Schedule is Final:
10:12	rhickey	The Oracle Content Team will not be able to accommodate requests for schedule changes."
10:12	xkb	do inner functions have a different behavior regarding concurrency then "normal" defn functions?
10:12	AWizzArd	sid3k: authors following Oracles guidelines for namespace names.
10:12	LauJensen	rhickey: alright, your call
10:12	sid3k	AWizzArd: is it necessary?
10:13	AWizzArd	rhickey: and will you be the one who is supposed to give those both talks?
10:13	rhickey	AWizzArd: no
10:14	AWizzArd	Maybe this is a good sign: Oracle accepts Clojure now as one of the main langs for the JVM and says that also some Java talks are scheduled at the same time.
10:17	LauJensen	Oracle liking Clojure... I dont know if thats good or bad
10:18	bozhidar	LauJensen: Oracle likes only money, they have no respect for technology
10:18	bozhidar	Sun was a totally different beast, but sadly they never managed to capitalize on their great technology...
11:25	AWizzArd	Did Clojure always throw error messages for (byte 200)?
11:27	AWizzArd	Or was byte silent in previous versions?
11:28	LauJensen	AWizzArd: try git-blame on RT.java line 904. I cant remember if its always been this way
11:30	danlarkin	it did not always
11:30	danlarkin	I think that has only been the case for a few months?
11:31	AWizzArd	Is there a built-in fn to convert unsigned-bytes into bytes?
11:34	sid3k	I'm reinstalling Clojure following these instructions; http://riddell.us/ClojureOnUbuntu.html
11:34	sid3k	somehow, mvn package command doesn't create a jar file in clojure-contrib directory
11:35	sid3k	any ideas?
11:36	lpetit	sid3k: if you're "following instructions to install clojure", then you'd better use something pre-packaged. use cljr
11:37	sid3k	lpetit: sorry but I'm not familiar with java world
11:37	raek	there are jars on http://build.clojure.org/releases/ and http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/
11:37	lpetit	sid3k: my point is that if you feel the need to "follow instruction" "to install", then you should not rebuild it yourself.
11:38	sid3k	lpetit: what do you mean? I'm trying to do what that page says?
11:38	sid3k	raek: thanks
11:38	raek	a common way to get started it to get and install leiningen, lein new, tweak dependencies in project.clj, lein deps, lein swank
11:39	raek	only requires java, I think
11:39	lpetit	sid3k: you don't need to build things yourself. There are already packaged jars, and if you don't know java world well, there are also things wrapped up if you use cljr
11:39	lpetit	raek, sid3k: really, for starting to play with clojure, the easiest way today is cljr.
11:40	lpetit	~cljr
11:40	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:40	dpritchett	Is there a preferred way to provision Clojure instances on EC2? Crane from Flightcaster is all I've seen so far. A nice AMI would be good too.
11:40	sid3k	I'm googling it
11:40	lpetit	~google cljr
11:40	clojurebot	First, out of 1990 results is:
11:40	clojurebot	CLJR - Cirrus Logic YUV 4:1:1 (vids:CLJR)
11:40	clojurebot	http://abcavi.kibi.ru/fourcc.php?fcc=CLJR&title=CLJR+-+Cirrus+Logic+YUV+4:1:1
11:40	lpetit	~google cljr clojure
11:40	clojurebot	First, out of 116 results is:
11:40	clojurebot	liebke's cljr at master - GitHub
11:40	clojurebot	http://github.com/liebke/cljr
11:40	raek	yeah, cljr sounds really neat
11:40	lpetit	clojurebot: cljr is http://github.com/liebke/cljr
11:40	clojurebot	c'est bon!
11:40	lpetit	~cljr
11:40	clojurebot	cljr is http://github.com/liebke/cljr
11:40	tcrayford	lpetit: refactoring mode has just got a working rename across multiple vars. I'll probably be introducing parsley to it tomorrow
11:40	lpetit	great
11:40	raek	haven't tried it yet, so how to get started with lein is the only simple instructions I can give
11:41	lpetit	raek, sid3k: I'm not speaking "in theory", I've installed it and use it on a regular basis
11:42	tcrayford	lpetit: renaming over a load of vars is kinda annoying when your code gets reformatted each time.
11:42	sid3k	arright, does it worth to remove current installation and start using it?"
11:42	lpetit	tcrayford: then I'll have to push my paredit.clj branch tonight.
11:42	lpetit	sid3k: certainly
11:42	sid3k	it seems promising, I'm confused
11:43	sid3k	then I'm removing all of the current installation
11:43	raek	there are too many complicated tutorials that havr high google rankings...
11:43	tcrayford	lpetit: my current plans with parsley is to only use it for modifying existing code. I can just my existing stuff for analysis
11:44	lpetit	sid3k: don't be confused. The path is clear: if you want to start with clojure without the hassle of having to install plugins on ideas, etc., start with cljr. When you want to write projects with dependencies, etc., enter the lein world. Then you can add an IDE to your toolkit, and you'll have a lot of choices: vim, emacs, eclipse, netbeans, intellij IDEA
11:44	lpetit	tcrayford: be aware that parsley isn't very well documented currently
11:45	dnolen	sid3k: there's also cake, if you have ruby installed. I find it a far friendlier experience than cljr esp. on OS X.
11:45	tcrayford	lpetit: nor is it on clojars/etc (which means I'll probably install it to maven locally)
11:46	lpetit	sid3k, dnolen: there's a clear progression path from cljr to lein to an IDE. I don't know about cake, but I guess it does not enable this "iterative" feeling
11:46	sid3k	lpetit: some guys at here know, I installed and configured this stuff and started to learn using emacs clojure already but yesterday I got a new notebook and here I am
11:47	lpetit	sid3k: what is the IDE you're the most effective with
11:47	lpetit	currently
11:47	sid3k	emacs and vim both
11:47	dnolen	lpetit: with cake those two steps are collapsed. You get a very usable REPL and a lein compat project oriented tool
11:49	lpetit	dnolen: :/ cake compat with lein compat with maven :/ :/ :/ . I'll keep this simple and just ignore cake for the sake of simplicity (one less dependency on ruby, no accumulation of project management tools and configuration files)
11:49	dnolen	sid3k: ah, then lein will work you just fine. Emacs + Lein is tasty.
11:51	sid3k	I've got lein as well
11:51	lpetit	sid3k: how to choose between cljr and lein ? The fact is you don't have to choose. cljr is for quickly opening a REPL for experiments, without having to create a project skeleton, etc. lein is for managing projects, with project dependencies, etc.
11:54	sid3k	lpetit: but why did you think that I need to open a repl quickly?
11:54	lpetit	sid3k: 'cause it's the simplest use case :-p
11:55	sid3k	lpetit: not funny dude, as I said, I'm reinstalling my environment, my aim is not to open a repl quickly
11:55	lpetit	sid3k: and while I'm using an IDE, I often quickly open an indenpendent REPL in my console to try out totally independent things from what I'm currently doing
11:55	sid3k	and all the stuff I've prepared is removed because of your wonderful cljr promotion
11:55	sid3k	:)
11:55	lpetit	sid3k: part of my environment is being able to open a repl quickly
11:56	sid3k	thanks anyway, I'm trying cljr now
11:57	lpetit	sid3k: if you have lein and cljr installed, you don't need to follow the web page with the hints on how to compile things (unless you really want to compile your own clojure and contrib, but it's generally overrated to do so)
11:57	cemerick	dpritchett: Clojure instances?
11:58	cemerick	We use pallet for EC2 provisioning and app deployment/admin.
11:58	cemerick	FWIW, of course.
12:00	sid3k	lpetit: it raises "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: cljr/App" for every command
12:00	sid3k	but this way works: java -jar ~/.cljr/cljr.jar list
12:02	sid3k	sorry, it just raises that exception for repl command
12:02	sid3k	list command works in both way
12:03	dnolen	sid3k: another thing that's painful about cljr is JVM boot time for every command. I find that unbearable. but to each his own.
12:04	sid3k	dnolen: I'm removing it
12:04	lpetit	ok guys, I'll stop promoting concurrent stuff then.
12:05	dnolen	sid3k: if you're already comfortable with Emacs why not just setup SLIME? it's pretty easy now.
12:06	sid3k	I didn't say "I need clojure repl" already?
12:06	sid3k	my problem was, ant didn't generate jar file for clojure-contrib
12:06	lpetit	sid3k: fact is, I didn't read when you said "I need ...".
12:07	sid3k	lpetit: np
12:08	tridd3ll	sid3k: I saw you referenced one of my tutorials a bit ago... Here is one I put together a while back but haven't blogged about: http://riddell.us/ClojureSwankLeiningenWithEmacsOnArch.html
12:08	lpetit	sid3k: so your problem is to reinstall a development environment for creating projects with clojure, that's it ?
12:08	tridd3ll	Might be more recent, replace apt-get install where necessary
12:08	sid3k	lpetit: yeah
12:09	tridd3ll	sid3k: I'm going to try today to make sure if it's actually up to date with the latest 1.2 and lein stuff
12:09	lpetit	tridd3ll: is it more accurate than what can be grapped from the clojure's wiki Getting Started page ?
12:09	sid3k	tridd3ll: thanks
12:10	tridd3ll	lpetit: well, it's much more specific... I need to preface all of these tutorials with the link to the wiki... just haven't had the time
12:12	tridd3ll	sid3k: also, the repository locations have changed I believe... I don't think they are under /richhickey any longer but under /clojure on github
12:13	sid3k	right
12:13	tridd3ll	sid3k: of course when using lein it pulls down its own version
12:13	dpritchett	Thanks cemerick! I wanted to try something like Heroku for Clojure but since I couldn't find it I finally signed up for EC2. It helps that Amit's Runa.com docs reference EC2 as well.
12:13	dpritchett	cemerick: Do you have any blog posts or info on the Clojure you do on ec2?
12:14	cemerick	dpritchett: CloudFoundry is the current best bet for a java-universe heroku
12:14	cemerick	Never used it myself.
12:14	technomancy	lpetit: cljr may merge with lein in the future
12:15	dpritchett	The only other thing I've seen out there is the clj-gae stuff. I could try that too but I am starting to get interested in the idea of doing some hands-on EC2 work anyway.
12:15	cemerick	dpritchett: Keep in mind, w.r.t. deployment, what works for Java works for Clojure -- so all of the solutions, servers, processes for deploying Java apps can be reused.
12:16	cemerick	dpritchett: see http://muckandbrass.com/web/x/CoBZ
12:16	dpritchett	Oh hey I already had that open in another tab :)
12:16	cemerick	That is (minus a smattering of details) all that's necessary to deploy our clojure-based appllication.
12:17	lpetit	technomancy: good news
12:17	technomancy	I've been planning to add cljr-like features to lein for quite a while
12:17	cemerick	There's a lot of people rolling their own deployment stuffs...running compojure via emacs screen, homebrew scripts, etc etc. None of that makes any sense to me. shrug
12:18	LauJensen	cemerick: hmm, sounds interesting, got link to those scripts?
12:18	LauJensen	:)
12:18	dpritchett	My personal clojure work is done using a Ubuntu 10.04 VM on virtualbox. It can't be that hard to get an AMI from there I hope.
12:19	cemerick	dpritchett: Every flavour of ubuntu has an AMI already. No need to package your own.
12:20	cemerick	That is, if you're using any of the deployment tools out there (e.g. pallet, chef, puppet, cap, fabric, etc)
12:20	dpritchett	There's one named 677194410155/Ubuntu 9.04 64-bit base jdk6 git-core; I guess that's close enough
12:20	cemerick	dpritchett: this is the canonical (hah!) source for ubuntu AMI info AFAIK: http://alestic.com/
12:22	cemerick	Those won't have the jdk installed already, but they're official AMI builds from canonical (starting with karmic, I think). I don't trust AMIs build by random passers-by.
12:22	cemerick	LauJensen: I think Brian Carper has the screen deployment stuffs in a blog post.
12:23	LauJensen	cemerick: I was just kidding - I prefer to automated approach as well
12:23	dpritchett	So I'd take one of those, quickly apt-get install the jdk and get lein/cljr/whatever, and then save that as my base Clojure AMI that I can clone for various tests?
12:24	cemerick	dpritchett: IMO, you're far better off ensuring that everything that isn't in the default AMIs is configured in at runtime, including the JDK install, tomcat/jetty/whatever, etc.
12:24	dpritchett	Meaning I'll stick with the Canonical AMI and then add install/config scripts that run at boot time for any additional AMIs?
12:26	cemerick	Roughly, but the "scripts" aren't installed or necessarily run at boot-time. In pallet's case, it connects to the newly-provisioned server over ssh, and applies your configuration.
12:27	cemerick	Chef is similar, but it has an agent that plings a Chef server for configuration changes periodically.
12:28	cemerick	+1 to technomancy: you should have a CI environment that spits out war files (or whatever the appropriate deployable unit is), and then use a deployment tool to push that along with whatever other config goes into a new/updated node.
12:31	technomancy	need to blog about that...
12:34	dpritchett	So when I discover a bug in my ec2 clojure app I'll fix it locally, rebuild jars with lein, and then overwrite the old jars on ec2 and restart the jvm?
12:35	dpritchett	Or use pallet to kill the AMI, start a fresh one, and push my new jars automagically
12:36	dpritchett	In which jars are sshed and images are spun
12:36	cemerick	dpritchett: the former, yes. Going from zero to a fully configured EC2 node isn't the fastest thing in the world.
12:37	technomancy	you should be able to do it easily when you need to, but not for every deployment.
12:37	cemerick	right
12:37	dpritchett	Makes sense, thanks
12:37	dpritchett	I've never had the privilege of working on a CI environment
12:37	dpritchett	Hopefully this EC2 fun will give me the excuse to beef up in that area
12:38	cemerick	dpritchett: It's not strictly necessary, but the more automation you have in your build/deployment/rollback process, the better your life gets. :-)
12:38	cemerick	FYI, there's a #pallet channel. You can bother hugod there. ;-)
12:38	dpritchett	Oh certainly I have read plenty of persuasive blog posts to that effect. IMVU -> Lean Startup stuff and the Joel test and all that
12:39	cemerick	IMVU is the modern hipster-geek example. Flickr's been doing continuous deployment for years and years.
12:41	dpritchett	Eh, the IMVU post (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=475017) made a big impact on me last February and I can't remember having read such an interesting thing about Flickr. I don't get practical consumer web app experience at my job so I find what I can to learn from.
12:44	cemerick	dpritchett: That was tongue-in-cheek. :-) IMVU's a great example. And yeah, flickr's never been out there talking about how they do things nearly as much as they could have.
12:46	dpritchett	I think as long as I can claim that I read it before the Lean Startup wikipedia page was created I'm safe ;)
12:46	cemerick	heh
12:47	cemerick	dpritchett: http://www.slideshare.net/jallspaw/10-deploys-per-day-dev-and-ops-cooperation-at-flickr is a decent deck about it. I remember first seeing code.flickr.com some years ago and being floored by "...last deployed XX minutes ago, deployed YY times last month" or something like that.
12:47	dpritchett	Thank you!
12:48	hugod	dpritchett: there is also the kaching blog post http://eng.kaching.com/2010/05/deployment-infrastructure-for.html
12:53	sid3k	I'm having trouble with lein this time: Unable to resolve artifact: Missing: 1) org.clojure:clojure-contrib:jar:1.2.0-SNAPSHOT
12:53	sid3k	any ideas?
12:54	dpritchett	Lein deps can't find the jar you wanted?
12:54	sid3k	exactly
12:55	sid3k	I've downloaded latest jar from build.clojure.org and put [[org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"] in the project file
12:56	dpritchett	You could try [org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0-RC1"] maybe?
12:57	sid3k	same error dpritchett
12:57	dpritchett	Didja try lein clean?
12:58	dpritchett	That's about all I can think of. I'm sure technomancy will be along shortly
12:58	sid3k	dpritchett: trie
12:58	sid3k	tried
12:59	dpritchett	Here's a bug report on the same thing - turned out to be a typo in project.clj I think: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/issue/47#issue/47
13:01	dpritchett	Eh, that one wasn't about contrib
13:02	sid3k	dpritchett: thanks
13:02	sid3k	good evening everyone, sid3k goes
13:10	arohner	this amuses me: http://gist.github.com/510026
13:33	notsonerdysunny	I am trying to build and get familiar with lein-build system .. I tried to build a project for the ants.clj that Rich wrote to demonstrate the power of stm. I divided the file into three peices core.clj, stm_ui.clj(contains the ui stuff) and stm_ants.clj(contains the agents and related stuff) .. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7271654/ants.tgz
13:35	notsonerdysunny	when I try to run "lein uberjar" it gives me a "JFrame" and stops the process there .. it does not complete .. can anybody help me to get this done right ..
13:36	notsonerdysunny	I have been able to use lein on simpler things .. this is the first swinp-app I am trying ...
13:37	qbg	Link is broken
13:39	LauJensen	notsonerdysunny: From your description I dont know whats wrong, but if I remember correctly you can do $ export DEBUG=VERBOSE and rerun lein uberjar to get a proper error
13:39	technomancy	notsonerdysunny: move things into a -main function. having UI launched in the toplevel is ok for experiments but not the way to do it in projects.
13:41	Raynes	notsonerdysunny: uberjar only creates an executable jar when you have a namespace that is :gen-class'd, has a -main function that is the entry-point to the application, and the :main namespace is specified in the project.clj.
13:43	notsonerdysunny	qbg .. sorry .. my dropbox is still synchronizing ..
13:43	notsonerdysunny	technomancy: yea .. I will try moving the creation of the JFrame into the main function ..
13:44	notsonerdysunny	Raynes: I have done that ..
13:45	Raynes	The -main function, as technomancy pointed out, has to contain the code that actually runs the application, such as launching the UI and such.
13:51	SandGorgon	does clojure have formal specification semantics - just curious, based on a related thread on reddit
15:04	timcharper	I just ran into an issue with leiningen regarding the installation of multiple versions of the same dependency
15:04	timcharper	my project.clj specifies to install clj-stacktrace 1.3
15:04	timcharper	However, in one of my development dependencies, clj-stacktrace 1.2 was specified as a dependency.
15:05	timcharper	In the end, I ended up with two versions of clj-stacktrace
15:06	timcharper	The issue was when I started up the environment, I ended up getting the 1.3 version of clj-stacktrace/core.clj, and the 1.2 version of clj-stacktrace/utils.clj
15:07	timcharper	To make even things more strange, I opened up the clj-stacktrace 1.3 jar, modified clj-stacktrace/utils.clj by adding a space, saved it (which caused the timestamp to update on it), and that small little change caused the 1.3 version of clj-stacktrace/utils.clj to be loaded instead
15:07	timcharper	So:
15:07	timcharper	A couple of questions
15:08	timcharper	Whose responsibility is it (or should it even be a desired behavior) to prevent the installation of multiple versions of the same dependency within a project
15:08	timcharper	For instance, with bundler, you can only have one version of the dependency in an instance. If, for whatever reason, there are conflict in dependencies, errors are raised
15:09	timcharper	The other question: if it's desirable that multiple versions of the same dependency are installed in the same projects simultaneously, whose responsibility is it to ensure that the latest version is consistently loaded every time?
15:17	timcharper	Well, I went ahead and posted a ticket:
15:17	timcharper	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/issue/90
15:17	timcharper	If anybody else has run into something similar, it may be helpful to get your input on it.
15:18	technomancy	timcharper: in this case it's easy; you probably shouldn't specify clj-stacktrace as a regular dependency; it's clearly a dev-dependenciy. in general: right now duplication is possible only across dependency/dev-dependency boundaries. in this case a manual :exclude should be used. this may be able to be improved in lein.
15:18	timcharper	Additionally, is this experienced with maven? Does maven do anything to prevent you from installing conflicting versions of a dependency?
15:19	timcharper	technomancy: unfortunately, I think we had to make it a production dependency because our code won't run without it (we have manually inserted places to catch an output the pretty stack trace)
15:19	timcharper	I will look into what we can do to change that
15:19	timcharper	(Thank you for responding :-) )
15:19	timcharper	Is there any way warnings could be added? Or is there any way to predictably enforce a load order?
15:20	timcharper	This issue only manifested on my machine because I was unlucky enough to get that failing combination
15:20	timcharper	(Which further added to the mystery of why it was failing, as you might understand :-) )
15:24	technomancy	load precedence is defined by order on the classpath. according to leiningen/classpath.clj the regular deps should always have precedence over dev deps.
15:24	timcharper	yeah... that's what I would think.
15:25	timcharper	Any idea how I got 1.3 core.clj, and 1.2 utils.clj ?
15:25	timcharper	That's what caused the issue that caused us all to scratch our heads.
15:25	timcharper	If I got a homogenous set of either 1.3 or 1.2, the issue would not have manifested.
15:26	timcharper	also, if I got 1.2 core.clj and 1.3 utils.clj, I would've been okay. It's just that specific combination :-) 25% chance
15:26	timcharper	I recorded a video of that issue manifesting, if you would like to watch it:
15:26	timcharper	^that^the
15:29	timcharper	Part 1: http://screencast.com/t/NjExMDUzYjQt
15:29	timcharper	Part 2: http://screencast.com/t/YjE0Nzc1OTkt
15:29	timcharper	I realized at the end what the real issue was, but the manifestation is clearly captured
15:31	timcharper	I can produce a more consolidated video of the issue, one second
15:41	timcharper	here it is :) - http://screencast.com/t/ZmY5MjA2YjQt
15:44	timcharper	(don't watch part 1 and 2... just the last video, if you decide to watch it at all)
15:59	LauJensen	timcharper: I hadn't seen jing before - amazing quality
16:01	LauJensen	interesting catch
16:08	timcharper	yeah... it's weird, isn't it? (the issue). Jing rocks.
16:12	LauJensen	timcharper: extremely. I cant make out what you're doing when you're selecting, are you using some kind of key which sometimes highlights the current word (up until next space) and other times something which highlights an entire function?
16:19	timcharper	c-m-space - mark-sexp
16:19	LauJensen	thanks
16:47	timcharper	technomancy: you here still?
16:57	timcharper	case closed with regards to the multiple versions issue
17:01	timcharper	on July 28th, clj-stacktrace-0.1.2/utils.clj was compiled and living in my classes folder.
17:01	timcharper	it took preference over clj-stacktrace-0.1.3/utils.clj, because the timestamp of the compiled files was newer.
17:02	timcharper	basically, this translates to: you should probably never run `lein deps` without running `lein clean` first. Ever. It creates a possibility for an unpredictable environment.
17:04	timcharper	IE, consider this scenario:
17:04	timcharper	you install version 1 of a jar, "core.clj" is dated July 14th, "utils.clj" is dated July 20th
17:05	technomancy	timcharper: sorry, gotta get back to work. sounds like the thread needs to continue on the lein list.
17:05	technomancy	cemerick's non-transitive AOT patch will help a lot here; hope it gets applied soon.
17:05	timcharper	then on July 21, everything gets compiled
17:05	timcharper	technomancy: ok
17:05	timcharper	I'll finish here then send to list
17:06	timcharper	... (continued) on July 28th, say, you update to version 2 of a jar. In the jar, "core.clj" is dated July 23rd, but "utils.clj" is dated July 20th.
17:07	timcharper	in this case, the compiled version 1 of utils.clj would still be used, since it's seen as newer than the version 2 utils.clj
17:07	timcharper	however, the version 2 of core.clj would be used
17:07	timcharper	creating a screnario not unlike the one I encountered today
17:09	LauJensen	timcharper: thanks for sharing
17:20	helino	hi everyone! is there some standard way to mark functions which has side-effects (for example reading from a socket)?
17:21	helino	hi everyone! is there some standard way to mark functions which has side-effects (for example reading from a socket)?
17:22	timcharper	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/io!
17:22	timcharper	you can has side-effect marking like that
17:23	helino	by using an exclamation mark?
17:23	timcharper	by calling that macro
17:23	timcharper	and wrapping your io side-effecty logic in there
17:24	timcharper	so, if says an I/O code is called within a transaction, and is at risk of being repeated, an exception is raised (as opposed to your I/O operation occurring twice in a circumstance that would probably be very rare and hard to reproduce)
17:25	helino	timcharper: I understand, thanks for your help!
17:26	timcharper	Sure thing!
17:32	jlf`	using clojure+slime, if some-var contains an object, i'd expect user> (. some-var TAB to show me that object's methods but it does not. how can i see what methods are implemented for a given object?
17:33	tridd3ll	FYI: I've released a new tutorial for those linux users wanting to roll their own clojure, swank, leiningen and emacs environment: http://riddell.us/ClojureSwankLeiningenWithEmacsOnLinux.html
17:33	technomancy	jlf`: use the slime-inspector on it: C-c S-i.
17:34	raek	jlf`: this might not answer your question, but clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show lists all methods for a class or object (I don't remember which)
17:34	raek	ooh, didn't know about that one... :)
17:34	tridd3ll	and I updated my current and older tutorial to point first to the Clojure wiki page as well as leiningen to avoid confusion for users hitting the page via google
17:35	jlf`	technomancy: thanks -- i see only fields there, no methods. am i missing them?
17:36	jlf`	raek: will take a look, ty
17:36	callen-nyc	I just wrote this up for someone
17:36	callen-nyc	http://gist.github.com/510409 does that look correct?
17:36	callen-nyc	and just a reminder
17:36	callen-nyc	->> is called "The Winchester"
17:36	sexpbot	=> #<core$_GT_ clojure.core$_GT_@11286929>
17:36	callen-nyc	,->>
17:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/->>
17:37	raek	tridd3ll: very kind of you :) your tutorials seem to be very popular
17:38	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: for clojure mode and slime, why not ELPA?
17:38	raek	,#'->>
17:38	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/->>
17:38	raek	,(meta #'->>)
17:38	clojurebot	{:macro true, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name ->>, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 1284, :arglists ([x form] [x form & more]), :added "1.1", :doc "Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the\n last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a\n list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the\n last item in second form, etc."}
17:38	callen-nyc	right. the winchester.
17:39	tridd3ll	callen-nyc: I've just always done it this way (although I have tried ELPA in the past.) Works for me. Sometimes I just like to have a bit more control.
17:40	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: going the git clone route always involved more pain for me.
17:40	raek	I'm definitely for pronounceable names... "The Winchester" could work (in a more informal context, at least)
17:40	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: I'm an impatient hammer-and-go guy though.
17:40	callen-nyc	raek: excellent. Keep telling people to call it that.
17:40	callen-nyc	raek: the best part is the name describes what it does, in a sense :D
17:42	raek	how many of the existing build/repl/project/deps tools (like leiningen, cljr, cake) have appeared from a year ago to now?
17:42	tridd3ll	callen-nyc: well, some people are new to git even, this tutorial introduces how to use more than just the clojure stuff I think.. others might not even be familiar with the linux command line package management stuff... so for clojure, this looks complicated, but it's really outlining quite a few things
17:42	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: good point.
17:42	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: I'm familiar, just impatent and obsessed with automation.
17:43	tridd3ll	callen-nyc: I might be the opposite... I'm obsessed with knowing how is was done, probably to the point of less productivity.
17:43	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: well, I value grokking
17:44	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: I think you're misunderstanding what I mean
17:44	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: I don't mean skating across a thin-ice patch of cargo cult
17:44	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: I mean getting to a position where you're learning something valuable ASAP.
17:44	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: I've been using emacs much longer than I've been programming in most languages I actually use these days, there's not any value in my screwing around outside of ELPA
17:45	technomancy	jlf`: you need to inspect the class rather than the instance to see the methods
17:45	arohner	macro expansion order is the same as function evaluation order, right?
17:46	jlf`	technomancy: ah, that makes sense. do you know if any plans are afoot to make tab completion dtrt in contexts such as . and .. ?
17:48	tridd3ll	callen-nyc: I'm not where you are with emacs, and I don't get to spend the time I'd want with clojure either.
17:48	tridd3ll	callen-nyc: so this is more foundational understanding for me
17:49	callen-nyc	tridd3ll: okie dokie. was just wondering. thanks for contributing to the community :D
17:49	tridd3ll	callen-nyc: :-)
17:49	jlb	Hi all, is there a "canonical" Clojure HTTP client? (I'm looking at clojure-http-client)
17:50	callen-nyc	jlb: technomancy's
17:50	technomancy	jlf`: it would only work with top-level vars, not locals, so probably not
17:50	technomancy	that said, patches welcome. =)
17:50	callen-nyc	jlb: I think you're looking at it.
17:50	jlb	callen-nyc: ok cool, thanks
17:51	callen-nyc	technomancy: what would be needed to make the http client contrib ready?
17:51	technomancy	callen-nyc: a convincing reason why contrib would be a better place for it? =)
17:51	technomancy	plus a lot of copyright assignment busywork
17:52	callen-nyc	technomancy: good point, but it would be nice if it was easier to people to know what the 'canonical' http client is.
17:52	callen-nyc	easier for
17:52	jlf`	ah, (use '[clojure.contrib.repl-utils :only (show)]) + (show some-var) = win
17:52	technomancy	contrib's a bit of a mess. I'd rather people trust something like pagerank or something for judging between libs.
17:53	callen-nyc	technomancy: mess?
18:02	mebaran151	how would one get the generated primary key in clojure.contrib.sql from an insert statement
18:11	mebaran151	also, if I wanted to replace a library function in clojure.contrib in just my applicaiton, is there anyway just to evilly change its internal definitions
18:15	raek	I guess you could use some combo of in-ns and def
18:15	raek	or maybe alter-var-root
18:18	mebaran151	I'm just trying to get the generated primary key in clojure.contrib.sql
18:18	mebaran151	it seems like this is buried in stmt metadata somewhere
18:19	gfrlog	what's the clojure word for compose?
18:19	raek	I haven't used c.c.sql yet, but I suspect that there should be a better way
18:20	mebaran151	it's a pretty basic library
18:20	lancepantz	mebaran151: it's not possible with one sql statement in mysql
18:20	mebaran151	compose I think is comp
18:20	raek	there is a more advanced library too, I think
18:20	lancepantz	it is in postgres though
18:20	mebaran151	I'm using h2
18:20	mebaran151	where it definitely is
18:20	lancepantz	i don't know what that is
18:20	gfrlog	,((comp not zero?) 8)
18:20	clojurebot	true
18:21	mebaran151	H2 is like a less broken embedded Derby
18:21	mebaran151	mysql doesn't return the row metadata? I feel I've used libraries that at least made it appear so
18:21	lancepantz	i looked into, php has a function for it
18:21	lancepantz	it actually does a second select stmnt
18:22	lancepantz	here's what i do in postgres http://gist.github.com/443115
18:22	mebaran151	http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/articles/autoincrement-with-connectorj.html
18:22	mebaran151	in jdbc you can
18:22	mebaran151	.getGeneratedKeys is your friend
18:22	mebaran151	if you can get a handle on the stmt object, JDBC handles the C library calls for you
18:23	lancepantz	right, looks like that is just an abstraction that fires off a second select statment though
18:23	lancepantz	i imagine it would do it in 1, using returning in psql
18:23	mebaran151	I think getGeneratedKeys is actually lower level than that
18:23	mebaran151	though it mght not be transactionally secure
18:25	lancepantz	i guess if jdbc supports it, then it would make sense for contrib.sql to support it
18:25	mebaran151	yeah
18:26	mebaran151	MySQL is just horribly broken 95 percent of the time
18:27	mebaran151	well I think that instead of closing the statements for you, it should return the statement object, or return the lazy seq with the statement object in metadata
18:27	lancepantz	well, if you put a patch together, ping me and i'll try it on my setup
18:27	mebaran151	then you could call close on it, which would look for the stmt key in the metadata
18:27	mebaran151	however that would break most of its design, and people might forget that come lazy-seqs need to be closed
18:28	mebaran151	*some
18:33	seancorfield	any bay area folks going to the clojure meetup in SF tonight?
18:34	jlf`	seancorfield: link? i see only balisp on meetup.com...
18:34	seancorfield	just a second
18:35	seancorfield	http://www.meetup.com/The-Bay-Area-Clojure-User-Group/calendar/13747349/
18:36	jlf`	huh, i searched clojure in SF and it didn't show up
18:36	jlf`	i guess mountain view is too far to be considered relevant
18:37	seancorfield	i get lots of meetup alerts about groups in mt view et al - i'm in the east bay
18:37	seancorfield	so mt view is a painful commute for me for a UG, SF less so
18:37	jlf`	yeah, i'm up in the back country of sonoma county :)
18:40	seancorfield	ah, right, because the group's based in MV... but often meets in SF... gotcha
18:44	jlf`	it might make sense to base the group somewhere closer to the population center of the bay area, like san mateo or something, so it shows up in searches from SF/Oakland/etc. in additino to metro SJ
18:44	jlf`	addition even
18:52	seancorfield	jlf`: yeah, i could make it to san mateo for a 6pm meeting, as i can to SF... it's just going further south that gets really hard for me
18:52	seancorfield	amit who runs the group is based in Mt View tho' so that's why it tends to alternate between SF and Mt View
18:53	seancorfield	since he moves it around, i can suggest to him tonight that he change the group's location on meetup
18:53	jlf`	i wasn't suggesting changing the actual meeting locations, just the group's location for the purposes of being close enough to show up in searches
18:54	seancorfield	right that's what i meant
18:54	seancorfield	better to show the group somewhere between its main two meeting locations :)
19:07	gfrlog	,(time (do (reverse (range 1 1000000)) :ok))
19:22	slyrus	technomancy: can I make a clojure-mode request?
19:25	technomancy	slyrus: sure, but I can't promise a timely response/implementation
19:26	slyrus	oh, I was mistaken anyway. nvm... for the moment.
19:53	pdk	(doc unless)
19:53	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:54	tomoj	(doc when-not)
19:54	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Evaluates test. If logical false, evaluates body in an implicit do."
19:55	rhudson	'unless is reserved for showing how to write macros :)
19:56	timcharper	chouser: we believe we've found a memory leak issue with fill-queue... but can't explain exactly why fill-queue would be leaking
19:56	timcharper	http://gist.github.com/510601
19:56	timcharper	(we being timcharper and mabes)
19:56	mabes	well, it is either a bug or our misuse of it..
19:57	timcharper	yeah :)
19:58	mabes	by memory leak, we mean that the collection (dates) that is being operated on is never released. as far as we can tell doseq and fill-queue should not be retaining the head of the seq, but something is...
20:03	timcharper	hmm.. actually... on further inspection, I'm not really sure if it has anything to do with fill-queue at all.
20:05	pdk	(doc defonce)
20:05	clojurebot	"([name expr]); defs name to have the root value of the expr iff the named var has no root value, else expr is unevaluated"
20:12	timcharper	ok, it's not an issue with fill-queue, although fill-queue inherits the problem. It appears to be an issue with doseq inside of a future
20:19	pdk	(doc unless)
20:19	clojurebot	Huh?
20:49	timcharper	,(doc unless)
20:49	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
20:49	timcharper	,unless
20:49	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: unless in this context
20:50	timcharper	,(+ 1 1)
20:50	clojurebot	2
20:50	timcharper	,(doc "unless")
20:50	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
20:50	timcharper	,(doc unless)
20:50	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
20:50	pdk	it doesnt understand if you try to do doc on a string and you don't need , for doc
20:51	timcharper	(doc println)
20:51	clojurebot	"([& more]); Same as print followed by (newline)"
20:51	timcharper	(doc unless)
20:51	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:12	pdk	oh god
21:12	pdk	vim =% is gold
21:12	pdk	this stuff is exactly what i was looking for, something modest to edit code that still understood lisp indentation
21:16	rbarraud	meh - emacs rulz ;-)
21:17	rbarraud	huge learning curve if you are thrown in the deep end though
21:17	rbarraud	I recommend O'Reilly 'Learning GNU Emacs' book - makes sense of it all
21:17	rbarraud	before that it made not a lot of coherent sense for me
21:22	pdk	probably get around to learning either one of them in depth if i come up with a more ambitious project idea :p
21:22	flintf	yea, I'm talking learning Emacs and Clojure at the same time
21:23	flintf	it can be a bit much
21:30	pdk	right now im basically happy to use vim in a basic way and try to find some commands for handling indenting/forms
21:48	pdk	(doc partition)
21:48	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as necessary to complete last partition upto n items. In case there are not enough padding elements, return a partition with less than n items."
23:04	pdk	,(/ 2)
23:04	clojurebot	1/2
23:05	pdk	,(= (/ 2) 0.5)
23:05	clojurebot	true
23:05	pdk	,(= (/ 3) 0.33)
23:05	clojurebot	false
23:05	pdk	,(double (/ 3))
23:05	clojurebot	0.3333333333333333
23:05	pdk	,(- 1)
23:05	clojurebot	-1
23:05	pdk	,-1
23:05	clojurebot	-1