#clojure – 2010-07-17

2010-07-17

00:03	tautologico	is there any nice, built-in 2d matrix data structure available in clojure? or should I roll my own?
00:06	wooby	tautologico: you may consider incanter.Matrix
00:06	tautologico	wooby: will search for it, thanks
00:06	wooby	tautologico: http://wiki.github.com/liebke/incanter/matrices
00:07	zkim	tautologico: Might help: http://measuringmeasures.com/blog/2010/3/28/matrix-benchmarks-fast-linear-algebra-on-the-jvm.html
00:10	tautologico	both links will be useful, thanks
00:45	slyrus	anyone around care to give my toy undirected graph implementation a quick review?
00:45	slyrus	http://gist.github.com/479247
00:45	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojure-dependency-grapher
03:05	slyrus	well, perhaps in the morning then...
05:24	vu3rdd	,quit
05:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: quit in this context
05:24	vu3rdd	oops.. slime-isms..:-(
05:41	vasily_pupkin	hi
05:42	vasily_pupkin	how can i get value linked to symbol via it's name?
05:42	vasily_pupkin	just now i do: (eval (symbol "a"))
07:48	idrop	hi, is there any function that will return a map with keys as keywords when given a map without? i.e ..... {foo 1 bar 2} ----> {:foo 1 :bar 2}
07:52	mikem	idrop: this would work
07:52	mikem	,(reduce #(apply assoc %1 %2) {} (map #(vector (keyword (str (first %))) (second %)) {\a 1 \b 2}))
07:52	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
07:52	mikem	don't know if there's a function for that
07:54	idrop	mikem: thanks for that! just have to digest it now..
08:04	raek	idrop: this could be useful too: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/c1c39162608551d50cfb18998d015974b11cfecc/src/clj/clojure/walk.clj#L95
08:05	raek	if you have a multi-leveled structure
08:06	raek	(more here http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.walk-api.html)
08:10	raek	(defn keywordize [m] (into (empty m) (for [[key val] m] [(keyword key) val])))
08:10	raek	my solution for one level
08:13	raek	,(let [keywordize (fn [m] (into (empty m) (for [[key val] m] [(keyword key) val])))] {'some-symbol 1, "some-string" 2, 'symbol.with/namespace 3})
08:13	clojurebot	{some-symbol 1, "some-string" 2, symbol.with/namespace 3}
08:13	raek	,(let [keywordize (fn [m] (into (empty m) (for [[key val] m] [(keyword key) val])))] (keywordize {'some-symbol 1, "some-string" 2, 'symbol.with/namespace 3}))
08:13	clojurebot	{:some-symbol 1, :some-string 2, :symbol.with/namespace 3}
08:13	raek	ahem
08:14	mikem	why does a vector not implement ISeq? iow, why does (seq? [1 2 3]) return false?
08:15	raek	you can think of a sequence as some kind of iterator
08:15	raek	that provides a sequential view of something
08:15	raek	in java, an ArrayList is not an iterator, but can provide one
08:16	raek	it's kind of the same in clojure: a vector is not a sequence, but it can make one (with seq)
08:16	raek	a seq is just something you can do first and rest on
08:17	raek	(those functions also call (seq) on their arguments)
08:17	mikem	ok, so the reason vector doesn't implement ISeq is for ... performance reasons? or vectors are just used for different purposes...?
08:17	raek	a vector seq is implemented as something like a reference to the vector and a counter for the current index
08:18	raek	it would be possible to make the vector implement ISeq, but what should rest on it return?
08:18	mikem	ok, it's due to the underpinning implementation then
08:19	raek	seqs and collections are not the same thing
08:19	raek	I think this is a intentional design decision
08:19	mikem	ok, this is something i'll need to deeper understand as time goes on i guess :)
08:20	raek	seqs are just first rest
08:20	raek	and behaves as cons cells
08:20	raek	/linked lists
08:22	raek	this might be helpful to understand the rationale: http://clojure.blip.tv/file/734409/
08:22	raek	but beware that the behaviour of rest has changed slightly since then
08:23	raek	rest does not have to return nil if the rest of the seq is empty anymore
08:23	raek	but what it returns should become nil when passed though (seq(
08:23	raek	next behaves as the rest
08:23	mikem	woah, it's 75 minutes of rhickey talking about sequences! awesome
08:24	mikem	oh yeah, i'm familiar of the distinction between next and rest
08:28	mikem	raek: thanks :) the video is on my to-do list
09:11	raek	wow: http://www.st.cs.uni-sb.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf
09:11	raek	I had no idea that the ideas of clojure could be such a great fit for game programming
09:12	raek	especially take a look at slide 51 and forward
09:16	raek	another thing:
09:16	raek	is there a simple way of delaying the effects of certain functions until a transaction succeds?
09:17	raek	like how sends to agents are held?
09:17	carkh	sends to agents are also delayed within transactions
09:18	carkh	and only sent upon success
09:18	raek	yes
09:18	raek	is there any known way of having this behaviour for other functions?
09:19	lpetit	hello, I'm having trouble with a macro. Maybe I'm not totally awaken, maybe it's subtle ...
09:19	rhudson	Can't you just execute the function in an agent?
09:19	raek	well, I guess so
09:19	lpetit	(defmacro f ([a] a) ([] (f 1))
09:19	raek	but I might not need the serializing effect agents have
09:19	carkh	,(send (agent) println "coucou")
09:19	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$agent
09:20	raek	i.e. all operations are queued up
09:20	carkh	,(send (agent nil) println "coucou")
09:20	clojurebot	#<Agent@667ed7: nil>
09:20	lpetit	this does not work. (if I call (f) it complains with java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: user$f (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
09:21	carkh	lpetit: you're calling f with one parameter from your second definition
09:21	carkh	when it has either 0 or 2
09:21	lpetit	carkh: ?
09:22	raek	(f) => 1, (f 2) => 2 for me with your definitoin
09:22	carkh	ah sorry wasn't awake either =P
09:23	carkh	anyways you're using f as a function in your second definition
09:23	lpetit	carkh, raek: got it. By the time the macro is compiled, I should not emit a direct call to f, or I'll get strange results since f is not totally compiled yet (so cannot correctly macroexpand)
09:23	raek	hrm, aha
09:23	lpetit	carkh: I'm using f as a callable, as can be done with macros, but you're right,
09:23	carkh	(defmacro f ([a] a) ([] `(f 1)))
09:23	lpetit	carkh: yes
09:24	raek	that looks more right
09:24	rhudson	carkh: you could use multiple agents if you're concerned about serialization
09:24	lpetit	carkh: since it's the return value of the macro, it does the job. Thanks guys for the brainstorming
09:24	carkh	raek: carkh: you could use multiple agents if you're concerned about serialization
09:25	carkh	=)
09:25	carkh	i feel like an agent now
09:26	rhudson	d'oh!
10:15	bmh	What is the random number generator of choice in Clojure? Should I rely on probabilities.random-numbers or call out to something in java? I'm not doing Monte Carlo simulations so the quality of the RNG isn't very important right now
10:37	raek	rand-int is useful
10:37	raek	,(doc rand-int)
10:37	clojurebot	"([n]); Returns a random integer between 0 (inclusive) and n (exclusive)."
10:40	bmh	That does seem useful.
11:00	defn	hello everyone
11:01	defn	$seen zkim
11:01	sexpbot	zkim was last seen quitting 293 minutes ago.
11:01	defn	$(/ 293 60.0)
11:01	sexpbot	This command is old. Use -> now. It's a hook, so it can evaluate anything, even stuff that doesn't start with parentheses.
11:01	defn	->(/ 293 60.0)
11:01	sexpbot	=> 4.883333333333334
12:07	Lajla	defn, does Clojure support tail calls?
12:10	raek	clojure does not, since function calls build on top of jvm method invokations
12:10	Lajla	raek, HAH
12:10	Lajla	You fell for me trap.
12:10	Lajla	I did not say taill cal optimization, now did I.
12:10	Lajla	Also, invokation?
12:10	raek	Lajla: ah, now I get it
12:10	raek	sure, you can do tail calls :)
12:11	Lajla	I can feel my sanity sleeping away between the holes of my teeth, I try to to keep my mouth shut and keep it in, but it is not working
12:11	Lajla	slipping
12:12	raek	invoKe, invoCation
12:12	raek	English, tsk tsk tsk
12:12	raek	"Also, invokation?" <-- was that regarding the spelling?
12:14	Lajla	raek, I was just asking if it was the proper one.
12:14	Lajla	No hard feelings
12:14	Lajla	raek, but french me, french me passionately to keep my sanity in.
12:17	raek	I don't take offence on behalf of the English spelling system
12:17	raek	so, it's cool
12:26	Lajla	raek, MY SANITY
12:26	Lajla	I am losing it lke we lost the world cup.
12:26	Lajla	Bloody hell, that octopus bought my sanity from that ref.
12:26	Lajla	That was a clear offside in my sanity.
12:26	Lajla	Now the Spanish have it and they will use it to become the second best programmers in the world.
12:29	raek	Lajla: write a programming book.
12:29	Lajla	raek, hmm
12:29	Lajla	and excellent suggestion
12:29	Lajla	I was busy expressing the formal semantics of that language in FOL anyay.
12:30	Lajla	raek, shall I dedicate it to you?
12:31	raek	your choise
14:01	defn	Lajla: choice ;)
14:01	Lajla	defn, what?
14:02	defn	he said choise -- it is choice, like your invokation vs invocation
14:17	raek	I always get that wrong... :)
14:18	defn	raek: what's new
14:18	defn	whatcha workin on today
14:35	LauJensen	I know we've talked about some of the UI options for Java before, but please remind me. We have Swing/AWT (ewww), and then Qt which is a little nicer but not fully baked yet, then there are those funky Mac Components, anything else?
14:35	LauJensen	(thats nice ofc)
14:36	qbg	SWT?
14:37	LauJensen	Isnt that as vile as SWT ?
14:37	Raynes	I thought Qt was pretty much abandoned?
14:38	Raynes	Jambi, that is.
14:39	LauJensen	Raynes: I dont think so, but as anything OpenSource it crawls
14:39	LauJensen	It was neeearly good when they dropped official support
14:42	bobo_	javaFX?
14:43	LauJensen	bobo_: Not available through Clojure
14:43	bobo_	suspected that
14:44	Raynes	There is that Pivot thing.
14:44	LauJensen	Got link?
14:45	LauJensen	I also wonder why the web isnt drowing in these SetLookAndFeel UIs for Java
14:47	Raynes	LauJensen: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Java+pivot
14:48	Raynes	http://pivot.apache.org/
14:48	bobo_	that looks like web gui's to me?
14:49	Raynes	Someone mentioned it here in the context of desktop GUIs a while back.
14:49	Raynes	I've never investigated.
14:49	LauJensen	Sure does - And at least in Conkeror they suck the life out of the browser
14:50	LauJensen	"Apache Pivot is an open-source platform for building rich internet applications in Java. It combines the enhanced productivity and usability features of a modern RIA toolkit with the robustness of the Java platform. Pivot applications are written using a combination of Java and XML and can be run either as an applet or as a standalone, optionally offline, desktop application. "
14:51	Hodapp	BINGO!
14:51	Hodapp	...oh, wait, we weren't playing web 2.0 buzzword bingo.
15:02	LauJensen	Hodapp: No we always save that for later, when the whole gang is here
15:07	Plouj	is forexmercenary written in clojure? : http://www.forexmachines.com/reviews/forex-mercenary/#comment-5592
15:08	LauJensen	Raynes: Thanks for pointing to Pivot, its very interesting
15:08	Raynes	You're welcome. <3
15:08	LauJensen	Plouj: Certainly looks like it
15:15	eshira	Hi, I'm trying to setup clojure on os x. I git cloned clojure and clojure-contrib, built it, and symlinked the jars into ~./clojure/clojure.jar and ~./clojure/clojure-contrib.jar
15:16	eshira	first question, how do i run the repl w/ jline (i have this dependency)?
15:19	eshira	second, i'm trying to setup vimclojure. I follow the instructions (http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html) to build PrettyPrinter. But i still get erros about it not finding it: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/pprint__init.class or clojure/contrib/pprint.clj on classpath.
15:20	slyrus	hmm... what does this warning mean? Warning: protocol #'ugraph/Edge is overwriting method nodes of protocol Graph
15:21	LauJensen	osx..vim-clojure... I think Im staying away from this one :)
15:22	Raynes	There is a vim-clojure ggroup that seems to be active enough: http://groups.google.com/group/vimclojure
15:35	eshira	sign i've gotten this whoel setup working once on another mac..
15:35	eshira	there are just wayyyy too many ways (pacakage managers, manual installs) to do it
15:40	technomancy	eshira: with swank at least the main problem is everyone posts on their blog about how they think they've got it figured out, and nobody reads the official documentation
15:48	slyrus	anyone up for helping solve a defprotocol/defrecord problem? i don't understand why the last two forms in http://gist.github.com/479786 give different results
15:50	raek	is edged both a method name and a field name?
15:50	raek	*edges
15:51	raek	maybe edges in (bar [g node] (edges g node))) resolvs to the field instead of the method
15:51	slyrus	why, yes it is. ok, thanks!
15:51	raek	np
15:53	slyrus	raek: is this a defprotocol bug or just my lack of grokking how this is supposed to work?
15:53	raek	you can get the value of a field by just using it's name
15:54	raek	they work a bit like locals
15:54	slyrus	locals?
15:54	raek	local "variables"
15:54	raek	like a surrounding let
15:54	rhudson	within the defrecord scope
15:55	slyrus	thanks rhudson
15:55	raek	(they're not exactly variables, since they cannot be mutated)
15:55	slyrus	they're akin to CLOS accessors then? but outside of the defrecord scope I still have to do (:edges g)?
15:56	raek	(:edges g) is how you access the field from the outside of a record, yes
15:56	raek	fields are like instance variables in java classes
15:57	raek	I'm not familiar with CLOS vocabulary, but I would call :edges an accessor
15:57	slyrus	right, but inside the defrecord scope there's _another_ accessor (edges ...) that returns the value of the field, right?
15:58	slyrus	or the same accessor called by a different name
15:58	raek	no, you don't call it
15:58	raek	use use the name as if it was a variable
15:58	raek	(bar [g node] edges)
15:58	slyrus	"(edges g)" isn't a function application?
15:58	raek	it is, but edges is not a functoin
15:59	raek	edges contains the value
15:59	slyrus	is used to a lisp-n
16:00	raek	in the scope of a record method, the name of the fields are bound to the field values
16:01	raek	(defrecord pair [one two] SomeProto (some-method [p x y] (+ (* x one) (* y two))))
16:02	raek	nonsensial example...
16:02	raek	this could also be written with the accessors:
16:02	raek	(defrecord pair [one two] SomeProto (some-method [p x y] (+ (* x (:one p)) (* y (:two p)))))
16:04	raek	"The class will have the (immutable) fields named by fields, which can have type hints. [...] Note that method bodies are not closures, the local environment includes only the named fields, and those fields can be accessed directy."
16:05	slyrus	but (defrecord pair [one two] SomeProto (some-method [p x y] (+ (* x one) (* y two))) (one one)) would allow me to say (one p) from outside of the defrecord scope, right? Otherwise I'd have to do (:one p), I think.
16:05	slyrus	(for suitable values of p, of course)
16:05	qbg	No
16:05	slyrus	I mean (one [p] one)
16:05	yason	Decided to try 1.2 beta on Ubuntu; none of the installation tutorials did the trick. Are things in clojure/slime/swank-clojure world in order or should I debug into it once again?
16:06	qbg	Oh, yeah then
16:06	raek	slyrus: then "one" could mean one of two things
16:07	raek	which can be confusing for someone reading the code
16:07	raek	if you want to hide the fact that thefunctionality is implemented with records, give the fields other names
16:07	slyrus	not for those of us coming from a lisp-n background where if you wanted the accessor one you would have to say #'one :)
16:07	raek	since they will not be visible to the user
16:07	slyrus	right, I'm starting to come to the realization
16:08	raek	if the fact that they are records is a part of the API, then using :edges as accesor functions should be fine
16:09	raek	*should be sufficient for getting the work done
16:10	raek	I don't know if naming conventions for these things have came up, since records are still pretty new
16:11	slyrus	ok, works as expected now. thanks for your help!
16:25	slyrus	can I have methods of the same name in different protocols?
16:26	raek	yes, but not in the same namespace
16:26	raek	they are still used as functions
16:26	slyrus	so, no, in other words :)
16:26	raek	exactly... :)
16:27	slyrus	Ok, defrecords being able to implement multiple interfaces makes it easy enough to factor the common stuff out into its own interface
16:27	raek	in java, classes both group together functions (as methods) and play the role of namespaces
16:27	raek	in clojure, these are separated
16:27	slyrus	clojure-mode could use some defrecord love
16:28	raek	if to things have the same name, they should probably do the same thing too
16:28	raek	(unless the term itself is ambigous)
16:29	raek	the indentation?
16:29	raek	that has ben bugging me too
16:29	slyrus	yeah two more spaces in for the methods (is that the right term?) so that they're to the right of the protocol names would be nice
16:30	slyrus	oh, and I'm still getting used to seeing CamelCase identifiers in my lispy code :)
16:30	raek	agreed.
16:31	raek	I think "methods" is an accepted term
16:31	raek	the docs uses that word anyway
16:34	slyrus	can I specify protocol methods with variable arity?
16:35	caio	how can I extend a namespace?
16:36	slyrus	e.g.: (defprotocol Moose (foo [x]) (foo [x y]))
16:36	yason	A follow-up question: What's the situation with swank-clojure? Usable with 1.2?
16:36	slyrus	i'm using it
16:37	raek	caio: if you're at the the repl, just (in-ns 'the.name.space) and define stuff
16:37	raek	using it too
16:37	slyrus	oh, nvm... i already discovered how to do that yesterday, and promptly forgot...
16:37	raek	the docs in swank-clojure is the most up to date
16:38	yason	slyrus: latest from git://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure.git?
16:38	raek	take technomany's instead
16:38	slyrus	yason: I use http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure.git
16:38	raek	he's the maintainer now
16:38	yason	oh, there are two?
16:38	yason	ok
16:38	yason	no wonder mine had "NOTE: swank-clojure.el is currently unmaintained."
16:38	raek	jochu was the original maintainer, I think
16:39	yason	yeah, makes sense
16:39	raek	yes, it's bad that jochu's the one that comes first on google
16:40	yason	for us who update their clojure a few times a year, this begs for an intelligent setup script. It's always the same trial-google-and-error hassle
16:40	raek	21:38 < technomancy> eshira: with swank at least the main problem is everyone posts on their blog about how they think they've got it figured out, and nobody reads the official documentation
16:40	raek	I do git pull origin on clojure-mode, swank-clojure and slime
16:41	raek	but my .emacs is a mess
16:41	raek	no packages
16:41	yason	raek: yeah, I've noticed that. But people love things where documentation isn't needed :)
16:42	raek	yason: here is my .emacs: http://gist.github.com/443590
16:43	raek	the important line is (ad-activate 'slime-read-interactive-args)
16:43	yason	raek: thanks, I'll cross-check with mine
16:43	raek	it is required if you don't use ELPA, I think
16:46	raek	I think there are clojure-mode forks on github that fixes record indentation too
16:46	raek	anyone else notices that dosync and future indents the body one space?
16:47	caio	raek: Im trying to extend the namespace clojure.contrib.sql, I created a (ns extended.sql), how can I import all functions of clojure.contrib.sql into this namespace?
16:47	cemerick	I wonder if anyone knows off-hand where the discussion about case dispatch can be found (e.g. using lists for grouping multiple dispatch constants, etc)?
16:48	cemerick	I think it was here, but I've not had any luck googling.
16:48	caio	look, I have to call (:require extended.sql) then have all functions defined in contrib.sql too
16:48	raek	there's immigrate in c.c.ns-utils
16:49	raek	but it has caveats
16:50	caio	whats "the right way (tm)" for doing this type of thing?
16:50	raek	namespaces are not designed to be copied and extended, I think...
16:50	caio	use immigrate?
16:50	yason	raek: swank-clojure automagically offered to install 1.1, did you say you tweaked it to work with 1.2 too?
16:50	raek	what is the usage scenario?
16:51	raek	yason: don't use the auto features
16:51	caio	i need to extend contrib.sql to support returning insert-id when I insert rows
16:51	caio	and other stuffs like this
16:51	raek	I think that is ELPA trying to download its latetest version
16:51	raek	which is not the one on github
16:52	raek	caio: the most common way (I think) would be to have your extensions in your own namespace
16:52	raek	and a user that want's to use te original sql API plus your simply uses both
16:52	yason	raek: it didn't seem to find my clojure 1.2 eventhough I pointed swank-clojure-jar-path to it -> tried the automatical features to see if they would add some setup lines to .emacs or .emacs.d
16:54	raek	have you added to the load path?
16:54	yason	raek: you mean emacs load path?
16:54	raek	yes
16:55	yason	raek: they're good
16:55	raek	I'm not an emacs guru...
16:55	raek	so I don't know how to debug emacs probelms
16:56	yason	I know emacs, I know clojure, but only slightly about the internals of slime and even less about swank-clojure
16:56	yason	well, i'll take a look at that tomorrow
16:56	raek	you might have to delete the packages ELPA have downloaded
16:57	raek	I only use the 3 git projects + the .emacs file you saw, nothing more
17:00	slyrus	i had to turn off slime-autodoc to get things working well :(
17:00	slyrus	not sure if that's still the case though
17:06	yason	raek: I had deleted elpa stuff already, just trying to find out how to point swank-clojure to my clojure.jar
17:07	raek	(setq swank-clojure-jar-path "path/to/clojure.jar")
17:12	Lajla	IN YOUR HEEEEEEAAAAD, IN YOUR HEEEEEAD.
17:12	Lajla	qbg, functions used by people that are bad at functional programming and try to duplicate imperative.
17:13	qbg	take-nth would benefit
17:17	qbg	Ooh, you could make lazy vectors with that
17:18	qbg	Well, not vectors, but a lazy indexed sequence
17:27	Lajla	qbg, indexing lists, or indexing at all really has little palce in functional style I think.
17:27	Lajla	I know of no library function in any functional language except one that indexes itself that I have seen implemented using indexing.
17:28	qbg	first/rest places limits on the computational complexity of algorithms
17:28	Lajla	People always say that lists are slow on indexing, and they are, that is why they are not used for that in general.
17:28	Lajla	qbg, well, functional style usually means you do stuff with all the elements in the list.
17:28	Lajla	And not pick them out accordingly runtime information
17:28	Lajla	You tend to transform lists, not select elements from them.
17:30	qbg	But sometimes you do select elements from them
17:31	qbg	(this is all just an excuse for me to play with protocols)
18:13	Nanakhiel	qbg, name me an example?
18:13	Nanakhiel	I would be most gracious
18:14	qbg	Nanakhiel: Of?
18:15	Lajla	qbg, explain?
18:15	Lajla	How does one binary search a list?
18:15	qbg	The same way you normally perform a binary search
18:16	Lajla	qbg, I just mean, why binary search a list when you can also binary search a vector.
18:16	Lajla	I think that actually first converting it a vector is going to end up faster than if you were to index from the start all over again, of course, that is not needed if you do it smartly.
18:16	qbg	An indexable list is an abstraction
18:16	Lajla	No it's not!
18:17	Lajla	It's a binary tree whose rightmost leave is null.
18:17	Lajla	Do not let the people who tell you that it is anything other confuse you
18:18	qbg	How is it not an abstraction?
18:18	Lajla	qbg, because it is what it is.. =(
18:18	Lajla	A binary tree
18:18	Lajla	which like any binary tree supports exactly two operations
18:18	Lajla	left branch, right branch
18:19	qbg	Instead of first/rest, you have first/rest/nth
18:19	Lajla	NO YOU DOOON'T
18:19	Lajla	You have car and cdr.
18:20	Lajla	rest is a nondescriptive name.
18:20	Lajla	first and second are good too.
18:20	rhudson	Wrong language Lajla
18:20	Lajla	You are frightening me with your conceptualism.
18:20	Lajla	HEY, there are already eyes in here.
18:21	qbg	Hmm.. Perhaps I should make it first/rest/nth/nthrest
18:22	Lajla	WAAHH
18:22	Lajla	So you're like implementing them on top of ARRAYS?
18:22	qbg	I can get a vector in terms of my abstraction
18:23	qbg	I can get a sequence of the form (map f (range length)) in terms of my abstraction
18:24	Lajla	Every time you do this, a lisp machine dies...
18:24	Lajla	Say you believe in cons pairs.
18:25	qbg	No love for hunks?
18:25	qbg	;)
18:25	qbg	(http://maclisp.info/pitmanual/hunks.html)
18:38	claj	how to get the clojure.set.union (and other set-functions) to work? I've tried (clojure.set.union #{1 2 3} #{4 5 2}) without results... is it my classpath?
18:39	claj	I get java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: union in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:16)
18:39	Raynes	->(clojure.set/union #{1 2 3} #{4 5 2})
18:39	sexpbot	=> #{1 2 3 4 5}
18:39	claj	big thx^inf
19:03	Lajla	qbg, my toy lisp has that actually, vectors are homogenous, so I invented tuples for hetrogenous random access, then I realized that a tuple of 2 is essentially a cons cell
19:11	somnium	Lajla: see SRFI 101 -> some percentage of schemers no longer believe in cons cells either
19:12	somnium	at least not of the 'look ma, its just like the lambda calculus' variety
19:13	Lajla	somnium, actually, I just like to be insane, in reality I have given the issue _a lot_ of thought in my own toy lisp and am leaning towards cons pairs which are just a special case of tuples in thend.
19:14	Lajla	I considered storing the length of the list in it too but I figured in the end that tail-hopping was going to have too much overhead to be worth it unless every cons pair had to store the length of what was to come.
19:16	technomancy	"Just like grandma used to make!"
19:18	Lajla	My grandma used to make me fish eyes.
19:18	Lajla	I still eat them.
19:18	Lajla	It grosses people out.
19:24	Lajla	Probably some Chinese thing though, I hear it's normal in the... our culture.
19:52	Lajla	somnium, dicisne latinam?
19:53	somnium	nil
19:53	Lajla	I like your response
20:51	ericthorsen_	o where do type hints go with defrecord and deftype on the fields that are not ints or floats? It appears everything turns into Object otherwise. Is thing information used/stored anywhere in the genned class?
20:51	ericthorsen_	so
20:56	ericthorsen_	so where do type hints go with defrecord and deftype on the fields that are not ints or floats? It appears everything turns into Object otherwise. Is thing information used/stored anywhere in the genned class?
21:46	bmh	I've got a list of characters '(\a \b \c), what's the proper way of turning that into a bonafide string?
21:47	rhudson	,(apply str '(\a \b \c))
21:47	clojurebot	"abc"
23:38	TimMc	Raynes: Where do you want feedback on try-clojure.org?