#clojure – 2010-06-18

2010-06-18

00:02	hiredman	actually, it works for me
00:02	hiredman	are you using a recent snapshot?
00:16	ceptorial	does anyone recommend a way to decide whether to use (:key map) or (map :key)?
00:35	rdsr	Hi all, on creating a table with a text data type I receive a sqlsyntaxexception
00:35	rdsr	here's the gits http://gist.github.com/443235
00:35	rdsr	*gist
00:35	rdsr	I'm using the c.c.sql lib
00:36	rdsr	The error mesg received is Syntax error: Encountered "" at line 1, column 91.
00:37	cemerick	hiredman: yeah, it works fine for me everywhere else too. I only created the gist because it sounded like you didn't think finally was supposed to work in conjunction with a recur in the try block.
00:42	hiredman	I can't say I am surprised though
00:43	rdsr	I'm using Derby as my DB
00:43	rdsr	is text datatype not supported in that?
00:44	hiredman	try/catch/finally is a linked set of gotos and recur is a goto, so mixing them is bound to be interesting
00:44	hiredman	rdsr: I'd check the derby docs
00:44	hiredman	http://db.apache.org/derby/manuals/reference/sqlj123.html
00:45	rdsr	thks hiredman, doing that right now
00:46	hiredman	man, tail calls will be so much fun
00:47	rdsr	thks hiredman, I'm using CLOB instead now and it seems to work
01:27	zakwilson	clojure.xml/parse can't seem to handle the character \# in a filename.
02:20	daaku	i have this odd issue where `rlwrap clj` gives me reverse-i-search (Ctrl-r) correctly, but it doesn't work (nothing get's triggered) with `rlwrap lein repl` (i'm on a mac, with clojure 1.1) -- anyone have any ideas on why this might be?
02:21	daaku	hmm.. it seems like `lein repl` actually has it's own readline equivalent
02:26	daaku	oh, lein 1.2-snapshot has this fixed. cool
03:11	daaku	is there anything that offers real tab completion (live, not precomputed) in the command line repl?
03:13	raek	slime in emacs autocompletes vars in the current namespace
03:15	daaku	raek: i'm not invested enough yet to use/setup/learn emacs :(
03:15	wwmorgan	daaku: enclojure has decent autocompletion
03:16	daaku	wwmorgan: is that netbeans only?
03:16	wwmorgan	daaku: yes
03:17	daaku	i'm a vim user, i guess ideally i'd like to keep the repl separate and keep using my vim/screen setup
03:17	raek	was it enclojure that hade something similar to paredit?
03:23	daaku	interesting.. enclojure has support for a "standalone repl" mode
05:34	cad_from_austin	test
05:36	cad_from_austin	I was hoping for insight into an elusive clojure.contrib.sql problem. I have a read function that works when I load the code into a repl within the defining namespace, but that throws and error when the code is executed from another namespace with (:use defining.namespace). I actually get a jdbc error - check syntax
05:47	Fossi	test
05:47	DarthShrine	Test failed.
05:58	gerryxiao	,(clojure-version)
05:58	clojurebot	"1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
05:58	gerryxiao	hello
05:59	cad_from_austin	I'd appreciate any help on the above, even "you don't understand namespaces"
05:59	gerryxiao	how to know whether the number is boxed?
05:59	gerryxiao	,(let [a 3] (class a))
05:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
05:59	gerryxiao	,(let [a (long 3)] (class a))
05:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
06:02	gerryxiao	(defn ^:static fib ^long [^long n] nil)
06:03	gerryxiao	,(defn ^:static fib ^long [^long n] nil)
06:03	clojurebot	DENIED
06:15	mikem	I see some symbols used inside macros which end with a # -- what does that signify?
06:16	LauJensen	mikem: thats gensym, gives it a unique name in the expansion
06:16	mikem	LauJensen: ok, that makes sense. thank you!
06:17	hoeck	cad_from_austin: please paste your code somewhere (and maybe the exception you get)
06:18	cad_from_austin	Mikem: I've actually just now resolved the problem, but have another question
06:18	cad_from_austin	I wound up just restarting swank. Is there something I should know about copy and pasting files from my source to the repl?
06:20	mikem	cad_from_austin: I think you meant hoeck :)
06:20	hoeck	cad_from_austin: basicall not, if the namespace has been previously loaded into the repl
06:20	hoeck	*basically
06:22	hoeck	cad_from_austin: do you copy whole files literally into the repl?
06:22	hoeck	cad_from_austin: (require 'the.namespace :reload) should be more convenient
06:22	cad_from_austin	Pretty often, yes.
06:24	LauJensen	hoeck: or :reload-all
06:36	cad_from_austin	Where should I put the reload-all?
06:38	cad_from_austin	Christ, nevermind. I got it.
06:39	LauJensen	cad_from_austin: Sorry - I had that line on my screen the whole time, but because there was no highlighting, my mind seemed to have filtered it out ... scary :)
06:40	Raynes	Likewise, actually. :\|
06:40	Raynes	I was playing tetris. :)
06:46	LauJensen	Raynes: The penumbra version? :)
06:46	Raynes	Not a Clojure tetris.
06:46	Raynes	I suck at graphics programming.
06:46	cad_from_austin	LauJenson: Which line?
06:47	Raynes	cad_from_austin: The line where you asked where to put reload-all
06:47	cad_from_austin	Ah.
06:51	cad_from_austin	Holy crap this is useful. Thanks guys.
06:51	Raynes	Reload is a gift from the great brackety gods.
08:01	eevar2	icfp starting now-ish
08:14	LauJensen	Raynes: Doesnt matter if you suck. Tetris is in one of the demos that come with Penumbra :)
08:16	Raynes	LauJensen: Oh.
08:36	Licenser	hmm reading the page about statics it looks impresive!
08:36	LauJensen	Licenser: When will you learn, its just a prank, clojure will never be statically typed
08:37	Licenser	LauJensen: I'm vaxinated against learning, it was a long and painfull process, including torture, brainwashing and humiliation - I think they called it school
08:38	LauJensen	Ouch - Just say no
08:38	LauJensen	Anyway, Im kidding of course, statics are cool
08:38	Licenser	:P
08:58	Licenser	I start to dislike all that meta annotation stuff :( it gets to look more complicated then useful
08:59	LauJensen	Because they changed #^ to ^ ?
08:59	Licenser	No but reading the code in the example it starts to look odd
09:00	Licenser	too much of ^ in there
09:00	LauJensen	But you so rarely need it, its not a general thing
09:00	Licenser	yes but it'd look cooler if it were a macro/special form/function
09:00	Twey	Isn't it deprecated for (meta …) anyway?
09:00	Licenser	like (static ...)
09:00	Twey	Oh, right, I see.
09:01	LauJensen	I disagree
09:01	Licenser	what I mean is we start to have many many many special character combinations
09:01	Twey	(with-meta …)?
09:02	Licenser	reader macros are kind of cool on the one hand but if we end up with perlish charcter chaos it gets ugly
09:03	Licenser	also the whole macro syntax can be quite cryptic
09:03	Licenser	with @,~,` and '
09:03	Licenser	now we also got $, and always had #(whatever behind it)
09:04	Licenser	does it make any sense what I mean, i talk about readability here, it is code lengthy effective but can get cryptic quite quick sadly
09:16	raek	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/8c9b0574a83f6c77576325b724c837cf4143eb33/src/clj/clojure/java/io.clj#L263
09:16	raek	shouldn't this be "make-output-stream"?
09:17	Licenser	one think I don't understand about the static stuff, will the static branch break the fact that numbers 'just work'?
09:20	raek	(output-stream (Socket. "clojure.org" 80)) throws "Cannot open <#<Socket Socket[addr=clojure.org/75.126.104.177,port=80,localport=52729]>> as an OutputStream." for me...
09:20	raek	but (input-stream ...) works fine...
09:21	raek	Socket does not seem to be extended to IOFactory correctly
09:24	Licenser	raek: an output stream is a stream you can write to
09:25	Licenser	and I might be mistaken but I don't think you can write to clojure.org's webserver
09:26	raek	that was just an example of something that yields a working socket
09:26	raek	I'm aware of how HTTP works
09:26	Licenser	well but it is a read socket I think
09:26	Licenser	not a write socket, at least I think
09:26	Licenser	or wait no you should be able to write to it
09:26	raek	you need to send the request...
09:27	Licenser	oh details :P
09:27	Licenser	but perhaps you need to wrap it in something before that?
09:27	Licenser	I am confused but you may be right
09:27	raek	I think I can make a fix for this myself
09:28	raek	but I haven't signed the CA yet
09:28	cemerick	rhickey: I tripped all over recur last night. Two problem cases: https://gist.github.com/e9bb4c44adf8d9a195dd
09:29	cemerick	If I had a magic wand, recur from within the try block, regardless of target, would run the finally block. That may be too complicated to implement though.
09:30	raek	Sockets have two methods called getInputStream and getOutputStream
09:30	cemerick	In that case, recur out of a try should be disallowed.
09:30	cemerick	However, it seems like recur whose target doesn't leave the try/catch/finally should be allowable.
09:30	raek	Socket is extended to clojure.java.io/IOFactory
09:31	raek	but only half of the protocol is implemented
09:32	Licenser	heh
09:32	rhickey	cemerick: yes, recur + try needs work
09:34	cemerick	rhickey: Shall I open a ticket or is this a 10 minute quickie?
09:34	Licenser	hmm when I understand the mailing list correctly the new branches will remove automatic overflow to bigint? I find that a huge step backwards even for the sake of performance, I personally would not trade a easyer syntax / working for performance for the 'it just works' effect
09:34	rhickey	cemerick: it's a huge job and there are already tickets I think
09:35	cemerick	ok, I'll double check
09:35	tcrayford	cemerick: I keep on wanting to work on adding your "ideal clojure ide" features to intellij, but getting it build really sucks, and the guy who runs it is not good for help :(
09:36	tcrayford	I'm pretty sure I can implement most of them pretty quickly, just doing so outside of emacs looks like a right pain
09:36	cemerick	rhickey: If it's any easier, a temporary change to disallow recur from try entirely would be preferable to the silent dropping of the finally IMO.
09:37	rhickey	cemerick: you are talking about case #2, yeah, I don't know why that's not caught
09:37	cemerick	rhickey: right, that's really painful
09:37	rhickey	currently it's mostly draconian about it
09:37	rhickey	cemerick: you really wrote something like #2?
09:39	cemerick	rhickey: yes, I had a recur in the try, with a loop target outside the try, and a finally block that was deleting the temp files that were being looped through after they were processed in the try. I kept running out of disk. :-)
09:39	cemerick	whoa, I botched that sentence :-O
09:40	mikem	what's the easiest way to launch a clojure script from the command line without compiling it first?
09:40	cemerick	similar to (loop [[file & files] files] (when file (try (process-file file) (recur files) (finally (.delete file))))), but with a lot more stuff going on :-)
09:42	tcrayford	mikem: there's a bash script included in contrib
09:42	tcrayford	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/launchers/bash/clj-env-dir
09:43	mikem	tcrayford: ok, looking at it now
09:43	cemerick	tcrayford: hrm, yeah, I've heard similar things. :-( I had high hopes when IDEA open-sourced the base, but there doesn't seem to have been a lot of traction on any IntelliJ open-source projects that I've heard of.
09:43	tcrayford	cemerick: I emailed the author about it in april, and still haven't got a response
09:44	tcrayford	I already know how to write most of the stuff you've requested, might just go and do it in emacs and then ask the people who write the IDEs to steal it
09:46	cemerick	tcrayford: I don't think there's a lot of stuff there that's truly difficult, the tough part is getting it in one place and making it accessible to a broad audience.
09:46	danlucraft	tcrayford: I would steal anything you wrote for Redcar if you OKed it
09:47	tcrayford	danlucraft: if I do this, the first thing in the readme is going to be a note for IDE writers to steal everything and anything they want
09:47	danlucraft	brill
09:49	tcrayford	though note that most of my stuff requires access to a running repl which has all of the source code loaded into it
09:49	tcrayford	(for whatever project is being worked on)
09:50	cemerick	danlucraft: what's the UI toolkit you're using?
09:50	danlucraft	swt
09:51	cemerick	it is written in jruby then?
09:51	danlucraft	cemerick: yep. almost entirely
09:51	cemerick	ah, ok
09:51	cemerick	you should change your FAQ :-)
09:52	danlucraft	hmm
09:52	danlucraft	cemerick: to say it's written in JRuby?
09:52	danlucraft	done!
09:53	danlucraft	cemerick: I read your posts on ideal clojure env
09:53	danlucraft	made some notes
09:53	danlucraft	I saw you said "Textmate (!)" :)
09:53	cemerick	I think I only made one, but sure. :-)
09:53	cemerick	Yeah, TM is an oddball choice for sure.
09:53	danlucraft	what's the ! for?
09:53	tcrayford	danlucraft: the problem for him is that redcar won't have amazing java support like the other ides
09:53	cemerick	IMO, anyway
09:54	danlucraft	cemerick: I mean, I think I get it, but why would you say ™ is no good for clojure?
09:55	cemerick	danlucraft: Well, there's not much to the bundle, and TM is a bit of a dead-end until someone writes a replacement. ;-)
09:55	tcrayford	cemerick: a bunch of the stuff you have in there is already in swank (find usages, go to declaration), and the IDE people could definitely yoink that
09:57	cemerick	tcrayford: Yeah, but actually implementing the functionality isn't the hard part.
09:57	cemerick	integrating it into the IDE is.
09:57	tcrayford	very true
09:57	cemerick	e.g. getting discovered namespaces recognized as "types" is a good example
09:58	danlucraft	what's a discovered namespace?
09:59	danlucraft	as opposed to a regular namespace?
09:59	mikem	tcrayford: ok, I got the clj-env-dir script working, however it seems my .clj file needs an explicit call to (main) in order to run. is it possible to invoke main from the command line somehow?
09:59	tcrayford	mikem: I don't know, I just use lein for everything :/
09:59	cemerick	danlucraft: one that your editor or build tool has recognized as a namespace to support navigating to it or compiling it.
10:00	mikem	tcrayford: hehe ok, no worries :)
10:00	mikem	thanks for the help
10:03	danlucraft	cemerick: ok
10:07	rhickey	cemerick: you haven't weighed in yet on the ggroup re: enhanced primitives. More naysayers right now.
10:08	djpowell	hmm, would it be good for clojure.main to support running the (-main) function somehow?
10:09	cemerick	djpowell: there's a ticket for that, I think technomancy opened it
10:09	cemerick	rhickey: I'll dig in a little later -- but, I'm on very shaky ground there. I fail forward when it comes to mathy stuff. :-(
10:16	cemerick	rhickey: looks like 4:1 against, if I can summarize so callously. And here I was focusing on equality semantics.
10:16	mmarczyk	incidentally, I wonder if the introduction of the num/prim/equal branches means that 1.2 is settled and basically in testing?
10:17	mmarczyk	(surely this stuff isn't meant for inclusion at this stage)
10:18	mmarczyk	cemerick: thanks for prodding me along re: the ca, by the way, should arrive sometime soon (today? Monday?) :-)
10:18	cemerick	mmarczyk: excellent :-) I'm already using the multi-comparator :-)
10:18	mmarczyk	cemerick: oh cool, happy to hear that :-)
10:19	cemerick	mmarczyk: apparently it is intended for 1.2
10:20	Licenser	so I might hold a short presentation of clojure on a ruby meeting, I know some of you already did some presentations, are there any advice what are good points to tacke?
10:21	mmarczyk	am I correct in estimating that this would make 1.1 -> 1.2 a bigger deal than Python 2.6 -> 3.1 ? :-)
10:22	cemerick	yeah, it's already a pretty huge release compared to 1.1
10:23	mmarczyk	I would have thought that the new numeric stuff would require a pretty significant testing effort before release, while the other stuff is probably pretty well tested already
10:23	cemerick	well, there's a fairly large body of automated tests
10:24	cemerick	but yeah, I think adding the prim, static, etc stuff will extend the stewing period
10:24	cemerick	note there's not been a beta release yet shrug
10:24	mmarczyk	true
10:24	cemerick	hanging out in #clojure makes one think everything's just around the corner
10:24	Licenser	heh
10:25	Licenser	tcrayford: you can start c-in-c already :P
10:25	tcrayford	hah :P
10:25	mmarczyk	;-)
10:25	Licenser	I mean many of use are already using 1.2 I guess
10:25	mmarczyk	I know I do
10:26	mmarczyk	protocols / records are really pretty helpful
10:26	Licenser	yap
10:26	tcrayford	man this is sorta confusing
10:26	Licenser	tcrayford: what is?
10:26	tcrayford	,(= '() (map identity '()))
10:26	clojurebot	true
10:26	_fogus_	Someone started a 1.1 REPL and I felt physically ill. I wondered how they got along without types/protos/records
10:26	tcrayford	that
10:27	mmarczyk	tcrayford: huh?
10:27	tcrayford	(= empty-seq empty-list)
10:27	mmarczyk	_fogus_: so, prudence (staying on the stable boat &c.) has adverse effects on your health? ;-)
10:28	mmarczyk	not to say I wouldn't feel similar, though I'm afraid I have a sillier reason (how could we live with #^ in place of ^!?) :-)
10:29	silveen	Does anyone know of a bb2html'ish PHP script that handles code syntax highlight for different languages?
10:29	tcrayford	I can sorta understand why the empty seq is equal to the empty list (they print the same), but its still somewhat weird
10:31	djpowell	,(= '() (sequence nil))
10:31	clojurebot	true
10:31	mmarczyk	,(= [] ())
10:31	clojurebot	true
10:31	tcrayford	ah
10:32	tcrayford	that makes sense
10:32	_fogus_	equality partitions ftw
10:32	rhickey	_fogus_: got slides?
10:33	_fogus_	for the talk last night?
10:33	rhickey	yes
10:33	_fogus_	I will have them up today
10:35	_fogus_	it was a fun talk. but I think I talked too fast :(
10:36	tcrayford	practice gets you better
10:36	liebke	_fogus_: You did a great job, I enjoyed it a lot!
10:37	_fogus_	liebke: Thanks! I thought the Q&A was pretty thoughtful
10:37	liebke	I agree
10:37	_fogus_	People seemed genuinely excited about Clojure/core also
10:38	rhickey	liebke: want to clean up the incanter test failures on equal branch? mostly things of the (= 113.0 113) variety. Would need to become (= 113.0 113.0) or (== 113.0 113) Any such fixes would be backward compatible
10:39	liebke	I think they were more excited about trying to improve Clojure's out-of-box experience :-)
10:39	rhickey	liebke: it's breaking my argos tests
10:39	liebke	rhickey: will do
10:39	rhickey	liebke: thanks
10:39	liebke	I told them about how I kept breaking your argos tests :)
10:40	rhickey	heh
10:40	rhickey	I love having argos
10:40	liebke	I love you having argos
10:40	_fogus_	love fest
10:42	technomancy	group hug!
10:43	liebke	technomancy: we also talked about your keyboard pants, and the future of wearable computers :)
10:45	technomancy	sweet.
10:45	liebke	I'm considering making mouse-shoes
10:45	technomancy	clojurians have a nose for futurism
10:46	technomancy	liebke: I am actually considering a foot pedal for mic mute to assist with voip pairing
10:46	technomancy	would make it easier to work in noisy coffee shops with bean grinders going off in the background
10:46	liebke	you are the future :)
10:46	_fogus_	treat him well
10:46	liebke	ah, you're pairing at coffee shops, that's cool
10:47	technomancy	hehe
10:49	rhickey	so, only inc, dec, +, -, * have overflow issues. If you are in favor of the default being throw on overflow, what suffix would you suggest for the promoting versions, and vice versa, if the default was promote, what suffix for the throwing versions?
10:51	Licenser	static-inc static-dec static-+ static-- (looks ugly) static-* (or stat- or just s-)
10:51	rhickey	e.g. things like +n for generic [n]umeric addition, or +o for addition with [o]verflow or [o]ptimized
10:51	Licenser	or inc! +! -! *!
10:52	vu3rdd	_fogus_: is your capclug presentation available somewhere for download?
10:52	rhickey	Licenser: ! for 'hurry up!' ?
10:52	Licenser	! for hurry up! for watch out! for might throw!
10:52	Licenser	generaly for need to look at this!
10:52	mmarczyk	I'd go with prim-add / fast-add or something for fast math
10:53	Licenser	and it'd be consistant with the transistant things ! functions are faster but need special care
10:53	mmarczyk	but Licenser's idea is pretty cool :-)
10:53	mmarczyk	oh, that's true (the parallel to transients)
10:53	Licenser	and it also says 'I freaking know what I'm doing!!!!'
10:54	_fogus_	how about +slow -slow *slow :p
10:54	Licenser	heh
10:54	vu3rdd	_fogus_: sorry, didn't read the conversation above. Looking forward to go thru it
10:54	mmarczyk	Licenser: yeah!
10:54	mmarczyk	(inc Licenser)
10:55	_fogus_	vu3rdd: It should be (back) up later today. I took it down to move it but had to run
10:56	Licenser	we could also make it +§
10:57	Licenser	which reminds me, clojure is the perfect language for lawyers you can call variables §3
10:59	Chousuke	I'd rather have + and - etc. be the fast ones
10:59	mmarczyk	just out of curiosity -- why?
10:59	Chousuke	If you anticipate that overflows will be a problem, you can prepare for it
11:00	mmarczyk	if you anticipate anything of the sort, you know what you're doing
11:00	Chousuke	meanwhile, anyone else writing regular maths code will get speed.
11:00	Licenser	Chousuke: but that is an expert decision and the default one should be what is surely good for non experts too
11:00	Chousuke	well, of course. Programmers can be expected to know what they're doing.
11:00	Licenser	Chousuke: In what world do you live?!? :P
11:01	Licenser	just think bout it, when people start to write stuff and start with simple things as fact and boom things go down and they wonder why and have to figure out how to typehint and and and
11:01	AWizzArd	Hehe, can one translate it that directly from german to english?
11:01	Licenser	that isn't nice
11:01	mmarczyk	Chousuke: ah, that's just not true
11:01	Chousuke	Licenser: Except they won't need to typehint anything
11:02	mmarczyk	Chousuke: people should be expected to know enough about what they're doing
11:02	Chousuke	Licenser: they'll just need to use bigint literals.
11:02	Licenser	but finding out that there are two versions of +
11:02	mmarczyk	the smaller "enough" is, the better
11:02	Licenser	even worst o.O
11:02	mmarczyk	for the parts of the spectrum everyone touches upon
11:02	mmarczyk	high performance math is not really something everyone touches upon
11:02	Licenser	I guess very little people do
11:02	mmarczyk	in particular, cemerick's State of Clojure has 53% of Clojurians do web apps
11:03	mmarczyk	in which way is having fast math relevant to building a web app?
11:03	Licenser	and just to make sure people don't get it wrong, I do need fast math but I'd rather go the extra length to write +! where I know I can do it then having to write +n or whatever when I'm in doubt
11:03	mmarczyk	now not having exceptions because of maliciously formed numerals or whatever
11:03	mmarczyk	might actually be relevant I guess
11:03	mmarczyk	Licenser: an (inc) to that too
11:04	cemerick	mmarczyk: FWIW, maths are #2 in that list :-)
11:04	Chousuke	I'm not convinced that this would be a problem.
11:04	Licenser	yes #2 :P
11:04	mmarczyk	cemerick: yup, I remember :-)
11:04	Licenser	there is nothing worth more then 'it just works'
11:04	mmarczyk	cemerick: with what, around 1/3 of the community declaring an interest?
11:04	cemerick	39%
11:04	mmarczyk	some of those guys might be Konrad Hinsen-types :-)
11:04	mmarczyk	I mean, they want it slower :-P
11:05	mmarczyk	see clojure.contrib.generic
11:05	Licenser	iPods are the most sold music players, Ruby went hugely up in the last years, apple computers in general did. And all of them because 'they just work'
11:05	Chousuke	Licenser: except when it doesn't, and you end up getting weird behaviour because some of your numbers are bigints and some aren't :P
11:05	cemerick	Licenser: all of which have nothing to do with a design decision in a programming language
11:06	Licenser	of cause
11:06	mmarczyk	the present state of arithmetic in Clojure does mostly "just work" though
11:06	mmarczyk
11:06	Chousuke	Licenser: Ruby still had broken strings in 1.8; how does that count as "just working" ;P
11:06	Licenser	at least ruby, last time I checked was a programming language, but let me fire up IRB and see if it starts to play songs but I think it will still be a programming language
11:07	Licenser	Chousuke: it was ruby's goal and in a lot of cases it did, now we, when going for performance over promotion, are moving knowingly and willingly away from a it just works
11:07	Licenser	cemerick: nope not playing songs, still a programming language
11:08	Licenser	but that aside, yes all of them are totally relevant. In the end if a programming language 'does not sell' it is not worth squat
11:08	Chousuke	Licenser: Except it'll still just work in the vast majority of use cases :/
11:09	Licenser	well I think we won't know in how many cases it will not just work.
11:10	Licenser	point is, when people get a odd exception (and sadly clojures are not very expressive) they'll be confused like hell
11:10	technomancy	that was 39% of "data analysis / math"
11:10	Chousuke	Licenser: an Integer Overflow exception is not very odd
11:10	Licenser	Chousuke: when you don't delcare types it is :P
11:11	Licenser	if it is statically typed it would be obviouse
11:14	Chousuke	for the record, I think ! would be a horrible suffix for the faster functions :P
11:14	Chousuke	it's as if you were mutating the numbers
11:15	Licenser	well that depends on how you definate !
11:15	mmarczyk	for the record, I'd still be fine with prim-add despite liking +! just fine ;-)
11:16	Licenser	Let me tell you a tale
11:16	Chousuke	I don't think prim-add is that good either. It works with bigints too doesn't it?
11:16	Licenser	back when I was at the university I decided to learn some programming languaegs - odd enoguh I know
11:16	mmarczyk	Chousuke: ah, fast-add than
11:16	mmarczyk	something modelled on unchecked-add anyway
11:16	Licenser	the first and most important one I learned well started, was Smaltalk - a I think utterly dead and not used language
11:17	Chousuke	I don't think Smalltalk is dead, it's just hiding well :P
11:17	Chousuke	kinda like common lisp
11:17	Licenser	Not because I liked the concept, or the syntax or the ideas, back then I didn't cared. But because it had nice easy arithmetics. I could just implement RAS without importing classes for BigInt, BigNum or any other library specially for big numbers
11:18	Licenser	now I did not learn Java, even so I could have done the same, or other languages, I found Smaltalk did that and weeeh I was happy
11:18	Licenser	and I kind of want people to have the same happy feeling when they start clojure, that things just work when they write simple code and let experts worry for performance if it matters
11:18	rhickey	there are also people forced out of using languages they love because they aren't fast enough, and end up using C/Java
11:19	Licenser	but seriousely we need the fresh blood and everything that icks them is a bad move in my eyes, they should be given cookies, petted on the head and cared for, not scared off with people prim-add
11:19	Chousuke	so if we went with non-fast math by default, then what exactly would it require to be fast?
11:19	mmarczyk	rhickey: if there is an actual possibility of having a set of fast-add etc. operators, this shouldn't be the case here even without + defaulting to the new math behaviour, right...?
11:20	Licenser	rhickey: don't get me wrong, I don't say lets be slow but as I understand the tradeoff is 'it just works' vs 'it is just fast' right? In both cases everything is possible if 'it just works' we still can make things exactly as fast as 'it is just fast' just with extra effort for that code, and if we go for 'it is just fast' we still can write the tings that not just work any more just again with extra effort on that code right?
11:21	mmarczyk	anyway, I guess if + does default to fast, but there is a very clear path to safe, I'd just use the latter when unsure and be perfectly happy...
11:21	clojurebot	add-classpath is Fraught with Peril!
11:21	rhickey	mmarczyk: well, it's a case of how much work is it to be fast. If it is too much work, or too difficult to get right enough to be actually fast, then it won't be perceived as fast
11:21	Licenser	As I understand the question is not simple or fast but what should be the 'default' behaviour
11:22	Licenser	what about a (fast) macro
11:22	rhickey	Licenser: there are many many programs that will 'just work' without ever creating a BigInteger
11:22	mmarczyk	rhickey: but if it is too much work or too difficult to avoid funky exceptions, than I have a feeling it won't be perceived as "safe", even if it technically is
11:22	Licenser	it is crazy but you could write (fast (defn bla [x y] (+ a b))
11:22	cemerick	yeouch
11:22	Licenser	rhickey: I know many many will but some will not, and 'just works' is a thing that either is or not 'it just works somethimes' is not 'it just works'
11:23	rhickey	mmarczyk: yes far less safe things, like Java will be used instead
11:23	cemerick	Licenser: for some, being fast is their version of "just works"
11:23	lpetit	I was wrong in my ml post. Having clojure throw an exception when there is an overflow will still preserve my data. So I'm OK with the suggestions. Java, in the other hand, will silently corrupt my data, giving me a false sense of security ( System.out.println(2 * Integer.MAX_VALUE) returns -2, for the record )
11:23	rhickey	cemerick: true also, performance as part of the acceptance criteria
11:23	Licenser	so what is about the deal with a fast macro - that would just work in both cases
11:24	Chousuke	and with the fast functions, you'd still be able to have "just works" math by using biginteger literals, right?
11:24	Chousuke	so (+ n 10N) will "just work"?
11:24	rhickey	fast macro etc definitely not going to happen
11:24	Chousuke	no matter what n is
11:24	Licenser	okay was just an idea
11:24	mmarczyk	rhickey: actually that's possible (though ridiculous), another possibility is, say, Ruby
11:24	Chousuke	and functions that do (+ n m) will just work as long as either n or m is a bigint
11:25	mmarczyk	not trying to sound like I understand the implications of all this better than I actually do, by the way, just trying to share what I'm worried about
11:25	qbg	With regards to the bigint issue, why not have a piece of metadata that you can put on a function definition that will enable aggressive use of primitives?
11:25	Licenser	qbg: I think that is the same as the fast macro
11:26	mmarczyk	I'll be happy to be put at my ease by an excellent story (a new one or possibly the current one at a new level of my comprehension)
11:26	Licenser	mmarczyk: one upon a time there was a cookie, this cookie was laying and the desc and then, oh horror a human came and eat it untill it was eaten.
11:27	Chousuke	:P
11:27	lpetit	Licenser: ^^^^ (that is, it works in both cases, if you consider the goal of data integrity)
11:27	mmarczyk	Licenser: I love the style, though I honestly can't figure out what you mean by that ;-)
11:27	Licenser	mmarczyk: I'm hungry
11:29	Licenser	hmm rhickey don't get me wrong I'm all for fast, but I think it might annoy people who are new if they have to learn an extra layer of functions if they want to make things always work.
11:30	AWizzArd	Let's say I have a (defrecord Foo [a b c]). Now I have the Symbol 'Foo and the vec [10 20 30]. I would like to create a Foo instance out of those two objects. What is the right approach to do so without using eval? (apply (reolve 'Foo) [10 20 30]) won't work.
11:30	AWizzArd	reolve ==> resolve
11:30	mmarczyk	do I understand correctly that (fn fact [n] (if (zero? n) 1 (* n (fact (dec n))))) is broken in prim/num ?
11:31	qbg	For definitions of "broken"
11:31	mmarczyk	if so, how does one write a function which computes the n! where the status of n as a primitive is left up to the caller to decide?
11:31	qbg	The writer coerces n to a bigint?
11:31	mmarczyk	(trying to understand exactly what is happening...)
11:32	rhickey	mmarczyk: with that definition:
11:32	rhickey	user=> (fact 20)
11:32	rhickey	2432902008176640000
11:32	rhickey	user=> (fact 42)
11:32	rhickey	java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow (NO_SOURCE_FILE:73)
11:32	rhickey	user=> (fact 42N)
11:32	rhickey	1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000N
11:32	rhickey	user=> (fact 42.0)
11:32	rhickey	1.4050061177528798E51
11:32	mmarczyk	hm, I see
11:32	Licenser	rhickey: so how if I make a clculater that gets a number from a input field
11:33	Licenser	do the user has to type 42N in there or how do I handle it?
11:33	lpetit	AWizzArd: I guess you'll have to use reflection, but also to have the fully qualified named of the class ('Foo just gives you the class name, not the package)
11:33	rhickey	(bigint x)
11:34	Licenser	but then I'm back at where we started or even worst since it always is a bignum
11:34	Licenser	so I lost speed, and added complexity which is in my eyes a loose loose situation
11:34	AWizzArd	apply does not work on new
11:34	qbg	new is a special form
11:34	AWizzArd	yes
11:34	rhickey	Licenser: everyone else lost speed to make you happy in the first place
11:35	lpetit	AWizzArd: of course. You have to use java API reflection. Maybe there's something in contrib masking it, hmm
11:35	Chousuke	AWizzArd: Use .newInstance on the class object to create objects dynamically
11:35	AWizzArd	Licenser: for a calculator bignums are the right objects, better not static longs.
11:36	hugod	do rationals work with primitives?
11:36	Licenser	rhickey: my point was there, if the inputs are not entirely controlable chances are good we will resort to casting everything to bignum in the first place - just to be sure
11:36	AWizzArd	.newInstance sounds good.. (apply #(.newInstance (resolve 'Foo) %&) [10 20 30]) ?
11:36	Licenser	that is whenever user input happens
11:36	rhickey	Licenser: and yet another trumped up theoretical example. Your calculator will be whole numbers only? If not, you were out of the integer space already
11:37	Chousuke	AWizzArd: I think it takes an array of objects as the constructor argument though.
11:37	Chousuke	AWizzArd: check the docs
11:38	Licenser	rhickey: it was an example to demonstrate a problem I see, I know it is not the perfect solution but working with inputed (may it be read from a file, database, or whatever) integers and then there will be the question
11:38	lpetit	,(#(.newInstance (resolve 'String) %&) ["hello"])
11:38	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: newInstance for class java.lang.Class
11:38	Chousuke	I suppose a calculator would use BigDecimal
11:39	Chousuke	lpetit: an array, not a vector
11:39	Licenser	okay another question how, when we don't force primitives would we have to adjust fact up there to make it use promitevs?
11:39	Chousuke	lpetit: annnoying, isn't it :(
11:39	Licenser	(fn ^:static fact ^long [^long n] (if (zero? n) (long 1) (* n (fact (dec n))))) like that?
11:41	qbg	What about boxing a long as a FastBigint (or something similar) when passing a primitive long to an IFn?
11:43	mmarczyk	rhickey: tbh, asking for elaborate examples of code which breaks/benefits significantly is a bit much at this stage...
11:43	AWizzArd	Seems that .newInstances takes no args at all.
11:43	lpetit	Chousuke: more annoying is that you must first get the list of constructors and find the good one, also ...
11:45	cemerick	rhickey: there's that island dynamic playing out in real time http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-June/079044.html
11:45	AWizzArd	rhickey: would it make sense to teach apply to do (apply SomeClass [10 20 30]) ==> (SomeClass. 10 20 30) ?
11:46	mmarczyk	cemerick: amazing link
11:46	lpetit	AWizzArd: clojure.lang.Reflector to the rescue: ,(clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor (resolve 'String) (to-array ["lolo"]))
11:46	lpetit	,(clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor (resolve 'String) (to-array ["lolo"]))
11:46	clojurebot	"lolo"
11:46	mmarczyk	http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20070219/044101.html
11:46	mmarczyk	^ reminds me of this one
11:48	cemerick	mmarczyk: yours is a helluva lot stranger in the first 4 lines! :-P
11:48	AWizzArd	That works, but it is very inefficient.
11:50	mmarczyk	cemerick: yeah, it's fantastic :-)
11:50	rhickey	seriously though, I'm looking for appendable suffixes for either promoting or throwing ops
11:51	mmarczyk	maybe a sigil of some sort? +&, +: ?
11:51	qbg	What about %?
11:51	qbg	(For throwing ops)
11:52	mmarczyk	+_ for add which stays on the level it starts at...
11:52	qbg	(probably best as a prefix?)
11:53	Licenser	I think pre/suffixing both would be the worst to do, leave one as the default and the other as a suffix
11:53	mmarczyk	incidentally, what happens when the call goes through the Var?
11:53	rhickey	mmarczyk: which call?
11:54	mmarczyk	#'+ could be an unpleasant way of saying "slow down, mate"
11:54	mmarczyk	rhickey: (#'+ 1 2)
11:54	rhickey	no, same semantics
11:54	mmarczyk	ah, I see
11:54	rhickey	not fast, but same operation, will throw on overflow or promote whatever wins as the default
11:55	Licenser	again what would be the extra effort to make things fast if we'd stay with promoting by default, I'm not entirely sure how the syntax had to look for that :(
11:55	mmarczyk	hm, I'm reading into the proposal more and more and sort of beginning to see the wisdom of the 'fast' side... not totally sold on it yet, but this goes to show the amount of trust Clojure's design has accumulated with me thus far -- I actually expect to be wrong when feeling uneasy :-)
11:56	Licenser	and at what level is it decided, argument level function level or return value level? or all of them
11:57	qbg	mmarczyk: Same here; I like the idea of the num branch, it just feels like I'm losing an old friend...
11:57	mmarczyk	qbg: fortunately the friend is a phoenix and his new plumage might be even more splendid :-)
11:57	Licenser	even I do like it I'm just not sure if it's worth it entirely and if there isn't a better way
11:58	mmarczyk	p+ / +p for "promoting +" ?
11:58	arkh	java interop question - this works '(.. (Thread. fnname) start)' but how do I do the equivalent of this (.. (Thread. fnname arg1) start) ?
11:58	Licenser	+^ ?
11:59	mmarczyk	,(read-string "+^")
11:59	clojurebot	+
11:59	mmarczyk	Licenser: so no go...
11:59	Licenser	yuck why that?
11:59	cemerick	arkh: not entirely sure what you're trying to do, but perhaps (Thread. (partial fnname arg1)) will do.
11:59	mmarczyk	I guess the symbol ends before ^, which is not a symbol char
11:59	cemerick	arkh: you really want to be using a future or agent though...creating threads is usually unnecessary.
12:00	mmarczyk	arkh: (-> arg1 fnname Thread. .start) or sth?
12:00	Licenser	but I'd still like to see what the verbosity trade of of making a function fast would be when using promoting by default
12:00	mmarczyk	Licenser: me too, absolutely
12:01	arkh	cemerick: I was scolded for using agents and futures in ways they weren't meant to be used ; ) I have a function I want to kick off in another thread but don't care about it's return value
12:01	mmarczyk	,(macroexpand '(-> arg1 fname Thread. .start))
12:01	clojurebot	(. (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> arg1 fname) Thread.) start)
12:02	cemerick	arkh: I abuse futures for that :-)
12:02	mmarczyk	ah, won't work of course... try it with macroexpand-all (from contrib) maybe at your repl
12:02	Licenser	(doc send-off)
12:02	clojurebot	"([a f & args]); Dispatch a potentially blocking action to an agent. Returns the agent immediately. Subsequently, in a separate thread, the state of the agent will be set to the value of: (apply action-fn state-of-agent args)"
12:02	hoeck	arkh: (.start (Thread. #(fnname arg1 ... argn)))
12:02	rhickey	what about +' dec' *' ?
12:02	arkh	mmarczyk: looking into that ... otherwise I'll abuse futures
12:03	AWizzArd	Sounds like Ocaml...
12:03	Licenser	rhickey: that doesn't look bad
12:03	arkh	hoeck: I had tried that but thought it didn't work ... maybe it was my code : (
12:03	rhickey	AWizzArd: what does?
12:03	qbg	rhickey: That looks good
12:03	mmarczyk	rhickey: +' looks good to me
12:03	AWizzArd	Different operators that basically do the same thing on diferent types.
12:03	mmarczyk	rhickey: which variant would you use it for?
12:04	AWizzArd	But that seems to be the price for very fast execution.
12:04	Licenser	AWizzArd: it is not about doing different things but using some different logic for the same types
12:04	rhickey	cemerick: where's the syntax expansion?
12:04	hoeck	rhickey: please not, how should this be distinguished from a plus and a real quote?
12:05	cemerick	rhickey: ok, right, just another idiom
12:05	mmarczyk	rhickey: btw, there's no possibility of doing the equivalent of Haskell's (Num a) => a -> ..., is there...?
12:05	Licenser	a missing space?
12:05	rhickey	hoeck: no spaces
12:05	rhickey	' would be allowed as a constituent character
12:05	AWizzArd	maybe add/plus/mul/multiply
12:05	mmarczyk	hm, wait, that definitely needs rephrasing :-P
12:06	rhickey	'fred's => fred's , on my machine
12:06	cemerick	Still, more otherwise-meaningless chars for core functionality.
12:06	Licenser	,(type 'fred's)
12:06	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$type
12:06	rhickey	cemerick: it's not anything more than allowing those chars in names, not special, you can use it yourself
12:06	AWizzArd	['fred's]
12:07	Licenser	wow is clojurebot slow today?
12:07	Licenser	$eval 'fred's
12:07	sexpbot	=> fred
12:07	AWizzArd	,['fred's]
12:07	clojurebot	[fred s]
12:07	Licenser	or is it me that is slow
12:07	cemerick	rhickey: I get it. I guess I'd just rather have the language have a settled default than trying to satisfy all constituencies maximally.
12:08	mmarczyk	I'm used to ' -- "prime" -- signifying alternative semantics when used at top level...
12:08	rhickey	cemerick: there will be a default. These functions will still need to exist, and have names, and be easy to change code written in terms of the default into these names
12:08	Licenser	I think allowing ' is cool since you can do nice mathematical notation with that f f' f'' ...
12:09	hoeck	' is such a ubiquitious character in lisp code
12:09	rhickey	mmarczyk: alternate semantics at top level in which lang?
12:09	mmarczyk	rhickey: Haskell, e.g. foldl'
12:09	rhickey	hoeck: not in non-macro clojure code
12:09	mmarczyk	which is strict, vs. the lazy foldl
12:09	AWizzArd	+2 *2
12:10	qbg	If +' was for throwing +, then + -> +' would be like assoc -> assoc! for transients
12:11	mmarczyk	...which sort of brings us back to +!, which is a no-go only if ! is to be reserved for mutation
12:11	rhickey	cemerick: else, e.g. people will be catching the exception from + as part of normal program flow of control, or coercing to bigint possibly needlessly
12:11	hugod	is putting the alternate semantics in different namespaces a non-starter?
12:12	mmarczyk	the idea with suffixed names for one class of arithmetic ops leaves open the possibility of reversing the choice -- as with #^ vs. ^ -- possibly with an intermediate stage with a third set of names...
12:12	rhickey	hugod: I think so - what does this code do? (+ x y) ... change ns declaration ... and this: (+ x y) ?
12:12	mmarczyk	might be useful if "most frequent usage" turns out to be something different to whatever 1.2 will bet on
12:12	cemerick	rhickey: I'm butting out for now, I don't grok all the issues yet. The presence of multiple mathematical fns seems mildly frustrating on spec though, and "mere mortals" will absolutely flip.
12:12	Licenser	we could do a (promoting ) macro :P
12:13	Licenser	cemerick: ylou ment you promoted yourself above mere mortals?
12:13	cemerick	same thing?
12:13	qbg	Why wouldn't a fast macro work, rhickey?
12:13	mmarczyk	cemerick: that might be a reason to have suffixed functions for the elevated numeric crowd and not for those who aren't concerned :-)
12:14	rhickey	qbg: no
12:14	arkh	cemerick: I'm a mere mortal. You can use me as a litmus test ; )
12:14	rhickey	qbg: oh, why
12:14	liebke	rhickey: I cleaned up the numeric types in Incanter's tests, and argos with the prim branch seems happy (although the latest version of clojure.contrib.jmx seems to have a bad test). Let me know if you need me to fix anything else.
12:14	cemerick	arkh: no one in #clojure is a mere mortal, by definition
12:14	rhickey	qbg: because it is too contexty, and what does it mean?
12:14	rhickey	liebke: what bad test, did you pull contrib?
12:14	arkh	cemerick: if that were only true! I won't delude myself :D
12:15	cemerick	The guy who needs to calculate interest and shove it back into a DB via hibernate is the one I'm thinking of.
12:15	Licenser	cemerick: depends on what * function you used the promoting one or the non promoting one, if you used the non promoting one you might get a Human Overflow Exception
12:15	rhickey	qbg: I don't want the compiler to have math modes, these are just ordinary function calls
12:15	hugod	rhickey: I think if you are writing code that you want to rely on one behaviour or the other, then being able to decide that at the namespace level, rather than checking every use of every operator, is a win
12:15	liebke	I did pull contrib. the test for jmx/guess-attribute-typename is calling (Long/valueOf 10) instead of (Long/valueOf "10")
12:17	Licenser	hugod: I'd say on function or expression level not on namespace level otherwise this will mean you'll get often 2 namespaces
12:17	rhickey	liebke: should be (Long/valueOf (long 10)), my bad
12:17	rhickey	liebke: only tested with num
12:17	liebke	rhickey: ah cool
12:17	rhickey	where that works
12:17	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/442044 <- the second version, would that be what it would take to make a function fast in a otherwise promoting environment?
12:18	hugod	Licenser: get 2 namespaces?
12:18	qbg	rhickey: In my idea of a fast macro, code inside its lexical scope would have contagious primitive math, but fair enough
12:18	Licenser	hugod: yes one for functions that require promoting and one for functions that do not
12:19	dnolen	If people leave over lacking autopromotion of BigInt they weren't that invested anyway.
12:19	cemerick	dnolen: that's my intuition as well
12:19	mmarczyk	dnolen: you could turn that around, you know
12:20	mmarczyk	"if people leave over having to write a lil' macro to add hints" etc.
12:20	rhickey	liebke: fixed
12:20	dnolen	mmarcyzk: not true, we're meeting in the middle
12:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: hopefully
12:20	dnolen	marczyk: BigInt folk are conceding a tiny amount of ground.
12:20	liebke	rhickey: great, I'm re-testing
12:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: the present discussion would be about where the middle is and how useful it is
12:20	hugod	Licenser: so you are worried about my-lib-promoting/some-fn vs my-lib-nonpromoting/some-fn?
12:20	Licenser	hugod: yap
12:21	dnolen	mmarczyk: while bring fast math people to the party.
12:21	Licenser	I would understand if you have a promoting-fn and a nonpromoting-fn
12:21	mmarczyk	dnolen: I wonder if that is the case.
12:21	Licenser	perhaps with a idomatic syntax
12:21	Licenser	the same that +, -, * ... shoud use
12:22	dnolen	mmarczyk: I'm not going anywhere if this stuff doesn't make it in, but it does seem to me future work in pure Clojure suffers.
12:23	Licenser	dnolen: I think noone wants fast math to not be implemented, I think the discussion going on is which mode should be default and which one explict
12:23	dnolen	Licenser: no modes
12:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: so you'd rather there were no auto-promoting ops at all? whoever might conceivably bump into bigint space should stay on that side all the time?
12:24	Licenser	dnolen: with default mode I mean, what will happen without extra effort and what will happen only with extra effort
12:24	qbg	If one really wants to, they could in theory write a (promoting ...) macro if bigints all the time don't work for thme.
12:24	qbg	*them
12:25	hugod	Licenser: I wouldn't expect too many cases where a lib would provide promoting and non-promoting versions - and you could still qualify the symbols to provide promoting-fn and non-promoting-fn
12:25	Licenser	hugod: no but I can see many cases where some functions are promoting and others are not
12:25	dnolen	Licenser: the current system creates a lot of incidental complexity. modes just move it somewhere else.
12:26	dnolen	mmarczyk: people working with BigInts are working with BigInts. people working with primitive math, working with primitive math. num works seems to address that just fine.
12:26	rhickey	+#, -#, dec# ? the # seems to dominate the op a bit
12:26	Licenser	dnolen: again you missunderstood me, with modes I mean, what is the behaviour you get 'for free' and what is the behavior you have to add some extra code
12:26	Licenser	I don't mean modes as in switching
12:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: they (modes) might also make it smaller if instead of adding a pile of hints all over the place you can just pick your operators wisely
12:26	Licenser	rhickey: dominating isn't bad if the thing is important to notice and to know about
12:26	rhickey	Licenser: it is if you can;t see the algorithm through the #s
12:27	mmarczyk	rhickey: might conflict with # = autogensym
12:27	qbg	If integer literals could be either longs or bigints based on what is the right thing at the time (no suffixes needed), then the current approach in num could be nice
12:27	Licenser	rhickey: true
12:27	mmarczyk	though "no autogensyms for +" is of course an option
12:27	mmarczyk	rhickey: agreed
12:27	rhickey	mmarczyk: yes, would have to work that out
12:27	rhickey	mmarczyk: without special rules like that :)
12:28	mmarczyk	:-)
12:28	Chousuke	people'll look at ' and think it's a quote though
12:28	Licenser	I don't think if it s in the end
12:29	rhickey	Chousuke: really? - (+' (fib (dec' n)) (fib (-' n 2)))
12:29	Chousuke	I suppose it's just me.
12:29	Licenser	(+! (fib (dec! n)) (fib (-! n 2)))
12:29	Chousuke	and allowing ' in symbols would be nice anyway.
12:30	mmarczyk	(+_ (fib (dec_ n)) (fib (-_ n 2))) <- just testing... is this too ugly?
12:30	mmarczyk	but +' is nice
12:30	qbg	(%+ (fib (%dec n)) (fib (%- n 2)))
12:30	rhickey	or +`, -`, dec` etc
12:30	Licenser	% is guly it looks too much like #
12:30	mmarczyk	fits in with math practice etc.
12:30	Licenser	nah ` is to hard to type
12:30	Licenser	it makes horrible things in german keyboards :(
12:30	rhickey	Licenser: ah
12:31	mmarczyk	%+ isn't bad to my eye
12:31	Licenser	it wants to do something to the next character
12:31	mmarczyk	I've wanted to write a -%> macro a couple of times, would be nice to see this work
12:31	Licenser	I wanted to write @-->--- functions
12:31	qbg	I'm just use to %primitive-function style from CL
12:32	mmarczyk	Licenser: ah, but you can do that already ;-)
12:32	Licenser	I know
12:32	Licenser	I also wrote a <3 function
12:42	Licenser	so where are we at
12:45	qbg	Long literals have been ruled out?
12:46	rhickey	stay tuned
12:47	qbg	num branch + long literals + fast bigints by default would be more than sufficient for me
13:43	mmarczyk	http://disclojure.org/ has some rather amusing entries this time round :-)
13:43	mmarczyk	"Every time you mention Scala and Haskell in the same sentence, a Java developer thumbs through a Clojure book at Borders."
13:58	nickik	Whats the best way to go from here {:a 1 :b 2} to here {:a 1 :b 3}. Cant find the right function.
13:59	hoeck	,(update-in {:a 1 :b 2} [:b] inc)
13:59	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 3}
14:40	raek	I have made a patch that fixes the broken clojure.java.io/output-stream implementation for java.net.Socket...
14:40	raek	http://github.com/raek/clojure/commit/797d2ff22cd8a52707d52efb6a680d5ee0a788f1
14:41	raek	the bug was probably just a typo or something
14:41	raek	what can I do with this now?
14:44	TeXnomancy	raek: you need to sign a contributor's agreement; see http://clojure.org/contributing
14:46	raek	done that today :)
14:46	raek	but the mail takes some time
14:46	TeXnomancy	gotta wait then. =\
14:47	MrHus	MrHus: reak: http://github.com/guides/pull-requests you could try this.
14:47	TeXnomancy	you can create a ticket, but patches won't get applied till it's in.
14:47	TeXnomancy	MrHus: rich doesn't like pull requests.
14:48	MrHus	I can imagine when getting about a 1000 a day.
16:25	rhickey	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c79d28775e06b196ae1426f6c1446d00b621d2e1
16:45	Licenser	rhickey: nice :)
16:48	Licenser	I like the ' syntax
16:48	rhickey	Updated: https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/b4-TTcvBSr3RAZeJe5aVNr/Enhanced_Primitive_Support
16:53	Licenser	rhickey: is there a branch that combines the changes described in the link?
16:53	rhickey	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c79d28775e06b196ae1426f6c1446d00b621d2e1
16:53	Licenser	ah okay that one combines things :)
16:54	hoeck	Licenser_: now we can use v, v' and v'' in our big physics simulations :P
16:54	islon	is there a simplified sintatic sugar to (def #^{:private true} x 1} in clojure 1.2?
16:55	hoeck	and that trailing ' is not that bad
16:55	Licenser	hoeck: yay!
16:56	hoeck	islon: (def ^:private x 1)
16:56	dnolen	rhickey: nice! even looks like there a perf boost for primitive long arithmetic with those changes?
16:56	hoeck	islon: at least in that branch that rhickey just posted
16:56	rhickey	dnolen: everything is better
16:57	dnolen	rhickey: good stuff.
16:57	islon	thanks, i'll try
16:58	rhickey	dnolen: and if escape analysis ever arrives, it could get better still
16:58	rhickey	for the casual cases
17:08	Licenser	okay I feel stupid I fail to clone http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c79d28775e06b196ae1426f6c1446d00b621d2e1 :(
17:09	Licenser	dnolen: silly question since you seem to have managed, how did you fetch the right version of clojure? :(
17:09	hoeck	Licenser: its in the equal branch
17:10	Licenser	:D
17:10	Licenser	hoeck: you are my hero!
17:11	hoeck	:/
17:11	Licenser	yuck
17:32	mmarczyk	rhickey: the new equal looks fantastic, hurray! :-)
17:45	mmarczyk	I'll be doing the same in a minute :-)
17:45	Licenser	I think there is a regression in the commit:
17:45	Licenser	user=> ((fn [x] (*' x x)) 2)
17:45	Licenser	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.Number (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:46	mmarczyk	ouch, this would mean that ' x is read as 'x
17:46	mmarczyk	as it used to be
17:46	Licenser	yap it is
17:46	Licenser	that is badish
17:47	Licenser	user=> (macroexpand '(*' 1 1))
17:47	Licenser	(* (quote 1) 1)
17:47	rhickey	Licenser: seems like you have a bad build, that's 4 here
17:47	Licenser	hmm
17:48	rhickey	Licenser: you building with ant?
17:48	Licenser	rhickey: yap I suck :P sorry
17:48	Licenser	I forgot to checkout equal as branch
17:49	serp_	are there any working guides for how to use emacs with slime, swank and clojure?
17:52	tcrayford	I think there's a guide around for lein
17:52	tcrayford	which is what you should be using anyway
17:52	dnolen	serp_: some tips on assembla
17:53	lancepantz	serp_: yeah, assembla has a guide i believe
17:53	Licenser	ah now it works nice!
17:53	tcrayford	assembla's guide doesn't cover slime iirc
17:54	dnolen	tcrayford: it does
17:54	tcrayford	my bad then
17:54	serp_	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs <- this one?
17:55	alpheus	This worked for me: http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure
17:55	dnolen	serp_: yup
17:56	serp_	I'll give it a try, thanks
18:01	mmarczyk	argh... anybody else having swank woes after moving to equal?
18:03	dnolen	mmarczyk: swank has a bug that prim triggers
18:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh bother :-(
18:03	dnolen	mmarczyk: swank-clojure HEAD is patched
18:03	dnolen	mmarczyk: do you use lein?
18:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: I see, thanks, will pull now
18:03	mmarczyk	not for setting up repls
18:04	mmarczyk	but I normally use HEAD of swank, just haven't bothered pulling in a while now
18:07	mmarczyk	also, (defn fact [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) 1 (recur (dec n) (* r n))))) throws on (fact 40) -- that's with , not '
18:07	KirinDave	[n n ?
18:07	mmarczyk	KirinDave: ?
18:08	Licenser	mmarczyk: not for me
18:08	Licenser	I just tested that
18:08	Licenser	could do (fact 42)
18:08	mmarczyk	Licenser: really? let me check again
18:08	KirinDave	mmarczyk: Why two n's?
18:08	Licenser	wait not exactly for that code
18:09	dnolen	KirinDave: he's playing around with the new numerics stuff
18:09	mmarczyk	KirinDave: left one is the local name, right one is the initial value (taken from the parameter to fact called n)
18:09	KirinDave	Ah
18:09	Licenser	you're right it trhows here too - very dod
18:10	Licenser	mmarczyk: but I can't find where it comes from
18:10	mmarczyk	Licenser: I wonder if loop/recur needs to know ahead-of-time whether it's going to be dealing with primitives or objects
18:10	Licenser	hmmm
18:10	mmarczyk	that would be the case with a local variable in Java, right?
18:11	Licenser	mmarczyk: but oddly enoguh for the simple version of fact it works
18:11	SirNick	what's the best way to set the character encoding with Ring or Compojure?
18:11	mmarczyk	incidentally, (fact 40N) doesn't work here either
18:11	mmarczyk	Licenser: well the simple version has the function call boundary
18:11	mmarczyk	which might present an opportunity for boxing
18:11	rhickey	mmarczyk: that's a broken definition, always returns one
18:12	Licenser	$((fn fact [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) 1 (recur (dec n) (* r n))))) 42)
18:12	mmarczyk	rhickey: ah, the middle 1 should be r
18:12	Licenser	,((fn fact [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) 1 (recur (dec n) (* r n))))) 42)
18:12	clojurebot	1
18:12	rhickey	the throw is because you have a primitive accumulator r
18:12	Licenser	yuck
18:12	Licenser	that's bad
18:12	mmarczyk	rhickey: the 'old' arithmetic had no problem with it, but I suppose the r would have been a big-I Integer initially, right?
18:13	rhickey	mmarczyk: no, was boxed, now primitive
18:13	rhickey	turn on warn-on-reflection
18:13	mmarczyk	that's what I meant, I think
18:13	rhickey	"recur arg for primitive local: r must be matching primitive, had: java.lang.Number, needed: long"
18:13	mmarczyk	boxed on master, primitive on equal
18:14	mmarczyk	right
18:14	rhickey	you can get boxed accumulator by doing (num 1)
18:14	mmarczyk	just tried hinting with ^Object which doesn't work...
18:14	briancarper	SirNick: On responses? Add a header to the response, {:headers {"Content-Type" "text/html;charset=UTF-8"}}
18:14	Licenser	hmm hmm is there a way to make it just work?
18:15	rhickey	(defn fact [n] (loop [n n r (num 1)] (if (zero? n) r (recur (dec n) (* r n)))))
18:15	SirNick	briancarper: Can I set that up to be default?
18:15	mmarczyk	rhickey: ah, great, thanks!
18:15	Licenser	I wonder why * does not work correctly BigInt * int should become a bigint shouldn't it?
18:16	briancarper	SirNick: Yeah, wrap all of your routes with middleware that adds the headers. I think that's the standard way to do it.
18:16	mmarczyk	not sure if I prefer primitive as default, but I can see myself being perfectly happy with (num ...)
18:17	Licenser	Do I have to go back to my rant about how confusing this will be to newcomers?
18:17	SirNick	briancarper: Alright, so how do I handle requests? Or will that work by default by setting the response encoding?
18:17	Licenser	I mean even mmarczyk was confused
18:18	Licenser	and why does (* 1 1000000000000000000N) work but not in the loop?
18:18	Licenser	ah because r grows too big?
18:18	mmarczyk	yeah
18:19	mmarczyk	thanks for your highly flattering use of 'even'
18:19	Licenser	the problem is not that * overflows but that the loop call gets confused with gettinga BigInteger Number
18:19	Licenser	mmarczyk: don't take it personal I was about to write even I was confused but I figured that my usual arrogance won't help my case to get this changed :P
18:20	Licenser	;)
18:20	mmarczyk	:-)
18:20	briancarper	SirNick: Honestly not sure how it's handled in requests. I've never done anything special to set anything up.
18:21	mmarczyk	briancarper: I've been meaning to ask -- how's your RPG project coming along?
18:21	Licenser	is there any way in the world that the compiler can 'know' what we mean?
18:21	Licenser	I mean the 1 part, when we mean a primitive and when we mean no primitive?
18:21	mmarczyk	Licenser: we can tell it :-)
18:21	briancarper	SirNick: One other potential place to set enoding is in the JVM opts, -Dfile.encoding=UTF8
18:22	Licenser	mmarczyk: yes but I opt again for 'it just works' as opposed to 'it works fasts if it does and throws odd and totally confusing exceptions if it does not'
18:22	mmarczyk	Licenser: apparently Rich has reversed the current situation with loop/recur... you need to hint to get boxing
18:22	Licenser	ava.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for long: 158905670470170624000 does not exactly tell you 'you were using primitves you ape' but rather 'OMFG YOU'RE GOING TO DIE'
18:23	Licenser	this is kind of a chrossorad and we need to decide which path to follow and I really hope we concider this very very carefully
18:24	briancarper	mmarczyk: My RPG has been on hold until Clojure 1.2 is released, I was too distracted porting a bunch of other code. But I plan to pick it up again very soon.
18:24	mmarczyk	briancarper: cool, I really enjoyed that post and the pixel art is cute :-)
18:24	Licenser	mmarczyk: for all bindings it seems
18:24	Licenser	let does the same
18:25	Licenser	okay now a very crazy suggestion how about adding let' and loop'?
18:25	Licenser	I know I get shot for this sugestion but it would be, as crazy as it is, a logical way to go
18:25	Chousuke	nooooooooo
18:25	Licenser	whenever we have non NumberStack behavior we have a ' at the end
18:25	tomoj	bang
18:26	briancarper	mmarczyk: Thanks :)
18:26	Licenser	how about '' a quote that does primitves?
18:26	Licenser	but seriousely this is evil, it will confuse the hell out of everyone but 5 people
18:27	Licenser	well 7 since rhickey just told mmarczyk and me
18:27	Licenser	we could make loop create overloaded jump points for different kinds of objects? longs and Numbers?
18:28	Licenser	not sure if that is technically possible
18:28	mmarczyk	Licenser: ...3 of whom are the three-headed dragon who is a thousand years old and lately amuses him/herself by writing Clojure instead of casting spells
18:28	Licenser	well wizard spells get boring after you memorized all 9th level ones you know?
18:28	mmarczyk	Licenser: exactly! :-)
18:28	Licenser	and the other two are rhickey and his shadow I guess
18:29	mmarczyk	(whew, safer waters again ;-))
18:29	defn	hey all
18:32	Licenser	hi defn
18:32	Licenser	join the fun of talking about clojure math
18:33	dnolen	mmm, colocated Mac Mini 4gb RAM running 1.2 equals branch makes a sweet 2010 64bit Lisp Machine
18:34	mmarczyk	Licenser: rhickey: took the liberty of posting about the primitive-by-default loop locals to the ggroup thread
18:34	mmarczyk	defn: hi :-)
18:35	Licenser	mmarczyk: oi, as I did
18:35	Licenser	but I added 5 lines speach to it :P
18:35	mmarczyk	Licenser: aye, just noticed :-)
18:35	Licenser	but you were a minute faster :P
18:35	Licenser	I think rhickey wil hate us soon
18:36	SirNick	briancarper: Alright I'll see how that goes, thanks for the help
18:43	AWizzArd	rhickey: would it be possible to add some more branches to build.clojure.org?
19:06	mmarczyk	http://gist.github.com/444341
19:07	mmarczyk	^ how come the first (non-static, non-hinted) version seems to be faster than the second (static, hinted) version?
19:09	Licenser	mmarczyk: found another problem, floats
19:10	mmarczyk	Licenser: oh? how come?
19:10	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/444344
19:10	Licenser	primitives don't change from one type to another :P
19:12	mmarczyk	oh, that looks buggish
19:13	Licenser	mmarczyk: it makes sense in the way it is implemented but it is horrible
19:13	mmarczyk	yeah, I guess I mean bug-inducing (or sth close)
19:14	Licenser	nods
19:15	mmarczyk	actually in this case the compiler could conceivably discover that the primitive participates in an arithmetic op with a floating-point literal as the other argument
19:15	mmarczyk	although if the flonum came from another parameter to the function or a closed-over Var, that wouldn't help
19:17	mmarczyk	rhickey: any chance of having a (num ...) hint, a (prim ...) hint (boxed vs. unboxed) and defaulting to prim in loop when the compiler can prove that that's alright (because of type hints on the enclosing function's parameters etc., say) and boxed otherwise?
19:19	mmarczyk	(the etc. encompasses hints on the return type, :tag metadata on Vars participating in arithmetic ops inside the loop's body and whatever else I didn't think of)
19:25	riddochc	I'm curious, what's an appropriate use for the 'reductions' function? I'm sure it is useful, but aside from debugging the use of 'reduce', I'm not sure what sorts of problems I'd apply it to.
19:26	tcrayford	"ls ~/Projects/clojure \| wc -l" => 24
19:27	riddochc	tcrayford: It's in the ballpark of my count, too... are you any better at finishing yours than I am? (wouldn't be too hard)
19:29	mmarczyk	riddochc: for one thing, reductions is lazy
19:30	mmarczyk	(take 5 (reductions + (range)))
19:30	tcrayford	riddochc: I don't think any of those are anything like finished
19:31	riddochc	mmarczyk: I suppose reduce can't be lazy, by definition.
19:32	tcrayford	man lazytest is hella cool
19:32	mmarczyk	riddochc: Clojure's reduce is a left fold, so it can't be usefully lazy
19:32	mmarczyk	riddochc: a right fold can be lazy in a lazier language (see Haskell) -- then it can work with infinite sequences
19:33	Raynes	Right folding in Haskell is insane.
19:33	Raynes	Insane, I say. Insane.
19:34	mmarczyk	actually I suppose Clojure might be lazy enough to do some of the lazy foldr stuff, with a little extra effort expended here and there perhaps
19:34	mmarczyk	Raynes: :-)
19:34	tcrayford	its funny how many core functions in haskell can be described usefully using fold and foldr
19:35	Raynes	I've done so much with foldr that I looked for it for a day straight in Clojure until I realized that reduce was the closest thing I could get.
19:35	AWizzArd	tcrayford: why do you find it funny/surprising?
19:35	mmarczyk	Raynes: got a good example of an interesting function using scanl? I can't think of one and I know I've seen some... would answer the question about reductions
19:35	Raynes	That was ages ago.
19:35	AWizzArd	reduce = fold
19:35	Raynes	I've never used scanl. I don't even know what it is.
19:35	Raynes	AWizzArd: I know.
19:35	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: reduce = left fold
19:35	tcrayford	AWizzard: just a nice example of how powerful reduce is
19:35	Raynes	But not a right fold.
19:35	Licenser	well night people
19:35	AWizzArd	And reduce is the most basic looping construct.
19:36	AWizzArd	map and filter are special cases
19:36	Licenser	mmarczyk: keep the fight up! ;)
19:36	mmarczyk	Licenser: good night
19:36	mmarczyk	Licenser: heh :-)
19:36	AWizzArd	it would be as saying that you find it funny that for-loops are of such big use in C programs
19:36	Raynes	Night Heinzy.
19:36	Licenser	Night Raynes
19:36	tcrayford	I find reduce somewhat annoying to figure out still
19:36	mmarczyk	Licenser: I know you'll be back here with a flaming sword soon enough :-)
19:36	AWizzArd	tcrayford: what about for-loops in Java?
19:37	Licenser	mmarczyk: I'm not here tomorrow so you'll have to take the lead for the day
19:37	tcrayford	for loops in java are painful as well :(
19:37	tcrayford	too verbose
19:37	AWizzArd	ah ok
19:37	mmarczyk	Licenser: I'm no replacement for you, but I'll stay vigilant ;-)
19:37	Licenser	we should stop looping of every kind and just write iteratively
19:37	AWizzArd	Well, just think of reduce (or fold) as a very general looping construct
19:37	Licenser	heh
19:37	Licenser	yea few people can be as annoing as I am :P
19:38	mmarczyk	tcrayford: www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/fold.ps
19:38	tcrayford	mmarczyk: already read, and translated into clojure
19:39	mmarczyk	Licenser: 'passionate' is not really 'annoying' :-)
19:39	AWizzArd	foldr you can get from (reduce f (rseq coll))
19:40	mmarczyk	tcrayford: well I guess that's mostly on foldr... foldl is equivalent for associative ops though
19:40	tcrayford	yeah, its interesting stuff
19:40	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: not really, that wouldn't work with infinite seqs, say
19:40	AWizzArd	what is the "right side" or last element of an infinite seq?
19:41	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: that's irrelevant to foldr
19:41	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: the definition is
19:41	mmarczyk	foldr f v xs = f (head xs) (foldr f v (rest xs))
19:42	mmarczyk	foldr f v [] = v, of course
19:42	mmarczyk	so if f can return something useful based on (head xs) alone without caring too much about (foldr f v (rest xs))
19:42	AWizzArd	Do you have a practical example for such a case?
19:42	mmarczyk	you've got a result, even though xs might be an infinite sequence (in Haskell, most likely a list)
19:43	mmarczyk	map ?
19:44	AWizzArd	maybe I am confused, but why does this definition of foldr take (head xs)?
19:44	AWizzArd	should it not be (last xs)?
19:44	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: nope
19:45	AWizzArd	so, what does the r then mean?
19:45	riddochc	It's about the order of function application.
19:45	AWizzArd	when it goes from the left side through xs’s right side?
19:45	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: if you expand this for an example list of xs, the parens will be in all the right places
19:45	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: (f x1 (f x2 (f x3 v)))
19:46	AWizzArd	vs?
19:46	clojurebot	use vs require is (:use [lib :only [a b c]) or (:require [lib :as alias]) -- (:use lib) is only for playing around
19:46	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: as opposed to (f (f (f v x1) x2) x3) for a left fold
19:47	AWizzArd	ah ok
19:48	riddochc	So, I think I had some scheme... (defun foldr (step zero x) (if (null x) zero (step (car x) (foldr step zero (cdr x)))
19:48	riddochc	Er, define. Sorry.
19:49	riddochc	And (define foldl (step zero x) (if (null x) zero (foldl step (step zero (car x)) (cdr x))))
19:49	rbarraud	,
19:49	clojurebot	EOF while reading
19:51	riddochc	Oh, now this is interesting. I hadn't run across it before: http://hyperpolyglot.wikidot.com/lisp
19:51	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: as for the map via foldr, map f xs = foldr (\x v -> (f x):v) [] xs
19:51	AWizzArd	yes
19:54	mmarczyk	riddochc: keywords are a PLT Scheme thing, though, r5rs doesn't have them
19:55	mmarczyk	riddochc: plus this doesn't make clear the difference between the various vector literals
19:55	mmarczyk	a nice list nonetheless, thanks for the link
19:55	briancarper	That site seems to have a lot of inaccuracies in the Clojure column. Defines "atom" as (not (list? x))
19:56	mmarczyk	briancarper: hm, indeed
19:56	mmarczyk	actually, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a useful definition of atom in Clojure
19:56	riddochc	Yeah, I was noticing their "not possible" thing for "making a standalone executable" in clojure.
19:57	mmarczyk	I think there's "seqable?" is contrib
19:57	mmarczyk	^in... I wonder if it covers all the cases
19:59	riddochc	I thought there was some JIT stuff for java that'll actually make a standalone executable, unless I'm mistaken. I've never used it.
19:59	briancarper	mmarczyk: It couldn't cover all cases, could it? You can define your own seqable things by implementing the right interfaces.
19:59	mmarczyk	briancarper: there's instance? for that
19:59	briancarper	Ah, right.
19:59	briancarper	Yeah, I just looked at the implementation of seqable?, it's not pretty.
20:00	mmarczyk	but then you have to decide if Enumerations and Iterators are seqable?
20:00	mmarczyk	I guess enumeration-seq and iterator-seq don't count
20:00	mmarczyk	so probably they're not
20:00	mmarczyk	then again, because of e.-seq and i.-seq, they're not "atomic" in the traditional sense...
20:01	riddochc	I can't remember wanting to test for "atomness".
20:01	briancarper	Me neither, I'm happy to leave it undefined.
20:02	mmarczyk	me neither, and in fact the only way I might lose sleep over this is due to a purely academic desire to come up with an appropriate test :-P
20:02	mmarczyk	go away!, go away! (the purely academic desire, I mean)
20:14	navandres	hi
20:15	navandres	I'm a dummy and I have a question for you
20:15	navandres	can I ask?
20:17	DarthShrine	navandres: Go ahead
20:17	navandres	I'm trying to make a simple recursive function
20:17	navandres	and something is wrong
20:17	navandres	(defn sumatory [n] (+ (sumatory (dec n)) n) )
20:18	mmarczyk	navandres: you need a terminating condition
20:18	navandres	It suppose to sum from n to 0
20:18	navandres	yes
20:18	navandres	I try this also
20:18	navandres	without luck
20:19	navandres	let me check that again
20:19	mmarczyk	navandres: a terminating condition as in (if (zero? n) (return-something) (+ ...recursive call happens here...))
20:20	navandres	mmm
20:20	mmarczyk	or use (defn s [n] (/ (* n (inc n)) 2)) :-)
20:20	navandres	I was trying that
20:20	navandres	(defn sumatory [n] (if (== n 0) 0) (+ (sumatory (dec n)) n) )
20:20	navandres	that is wrong?
20:20	mmarczyk	wrong paren placement
20:21	mmarczyk	(if (zero? n) 0 ...no paren here... (+ ...)...)
20:21	mmarczyk	where the final ...) means "close all parens"
20:21	navandres	ok
20:22	navandres	I'm a little confuse
20:22	navandres	but I will try that
20:22	navandres	thanks
20:22	mmarczyk	np
20:27	tomoj	recursion :(
20:28	navandres	have no luck
20:29	navandres	(defn s [n] (/ (* n (inc n)) 2))
20:30	navandres	with this function
20:30	navandres	s 5
20:30	navandres	What should I expect ?
20:30	tomoj	,(+ 1 2 3 4 5)
20:30	clojurebot	15
20:31	mmarczyk	,((fn [n] (/ (* n (inc n)) 2)) 5)
20:31	clojurebot	15
20:31	navandres	mmm
20:31	navandres	I'm getting this
20:31	navandres	#<user$s__4 user$s__4@739e8329>
20:31	navandres	5
20:31	tomoj	are you actually typing "s 5" to call it?
20:31	mmarczyk	((fn sum-down-to-zero [n] (if (zero? n) 0 (+ n (sum-down-to-zero (dec n))))) 5)
20:32	navandres	yes
20:32	mmarczyk	,((fn sum-down-to-zero [n] (if (zero? n) 0 (+ n (sum-down-to-zero (dec n))))) 5)
20:32	clojurebot	15
20:32	navandres	:(
20:32	tomoj	type (s 5) instead
20:32	mmarczyk	incidentally, the latter idea is not efficient at all
20:32	navandres	ohhhh
20:32	navandres	I'm soooooo silly
20:32	mmarczyk	loop/recur would be ok... but that's besides the point, I guess
20:33	navandres	thanks
20:33	navandres	(s 5)
20:33	navandres	works
20:35	mmarczyk	^beside :-/
20:35	navandres	all those definitions works now
20:35	navandres	thanks
20:36	navandres	is there a way of executing clojure that can load a file also
20:37	navandres	because I'm have to do the load-file every time
20:44	vIkSiT	hmm, what would be the best way of reading a file till EOF in some code like this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/111521 ?
20:47	mmarczyk	vIkSiT: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2961493/treating-a-file-of-java-floats-as-a-lazy-clojure-sequence/2963984#2963984
20:47	mmarczyk	(some code by cgrand which does what you want, I think)
20:47	vIkSiT	mmarczyk, ooh good pointer, thanks
20:48	mmarczyk	navandres: using load-file is very unusual
20:48	mmarczyk	navandres: maybe have a look at http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started
20:49	navandres	hehe
20:49	navandres	yes
20:49	navandres	I know
20:49	navandres	thank you
20:50	navandres	I have to install the eclipse plugin
21:37	rhickey	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/c8c850595c91cc11
21:56	qbg	If you have to ask for bigints, asking for a non-primitive in recur fits
21:56	rhickey	qbg: right, that mismatch was a remnant, it will match the default
21:59	AWizzArd	in my Clojure version when I have a (loop [x (long 1)] (recur (* x 0.5))) I get ==> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: recur arg for primitive local: x must be matching primitive
22:00	AWizzArd	That's a good solution too.
22:01	vIkSiT	hmm, whats a good way to serialize a protocol?
22:02	rhickey	AWizzArd: it isn't because there are plenty of times where the recur args is an object that could init the loop local just fine (loop [x 1] ... (recur (:foo bar)) - if (:foo bar) is an integer (even in a box) that will be fast and correct
22:02	qbg	vIkSiT: Why do you want to serialize a protocol?
22:02	vIkSiT	erk. I meant a record
22:02	vIkSiT	ok stepping back a bit.
22:03	vIkSiT	I've got a record that contains a list/vector/map of other records.
22:03	AWizzArd	rhickey: if the compiler can not prove that (:foo bar) returns a long it could warn, and so one could (recur (long (:foo bar))
22:03	vIkSiT	And I'd like to be able to serialize and store it on disk
22:03	vIkSiT	qbg, ^ ..
22:03	AWizzArd	but another solution could be that x in [x 1] is a number
22:04	AWizzArd	a general one, bigint
22:04	AWizzArd	(num 1)
22:04	AWizzArd	it would be confusing if (+ 1 0.1) ==> 1.1 but inside a loop then ==> 1
22:07	rhickey	AWizzArd: anf then you learn that loop locals take on the type of their initializer, and you are doing floating point so use a floating point init
22:08	AWizzArd	This may not be discovered always, people forget it, don't write test, don't use Coverage tools, etc.
22:09	rhickey	AWizzArd: And I should orient Clojure for those people?
22:09	AWizzArd	In my opinion the two best solutions would be: 1) using fast primitives but then also static type checking which will emit warnings or erros during compilation when type correctness can't be proven, or 2) having the boxed numbers as default where no errors could sneak in
22:10	rhickey	AWizzArd: static type checking is not going to happen any time soon
22:10	AWizzArd	Well, it is just more complex rule, if (+ 1 0.1) ==> 1.1 outside of loops, but inside loops just 1.
22:10	remleduff	My problem with making the loop initializer so magical is java interop. You basically would never feel save initializing a loop variable with an interop form unless you make sure to double-check every time what type the java code returns.
22:11	rhickey	but it could go back to being an error, causing more work for some correct code
22:11	AWizzArd	an error or at least warning would be nice imo
22:11	AWizzArd	(recur (+ x 0.1)) ==> warning
22:12	AWizzArd	(recur (my-static-add-that-returns-longs x 0.1)) ==> fine
22:12	AWizzArd	I don't know if + is the version that returns long or +'
22:13	rhickey	AWizzArd: It's the same rule:
22:13	rhickey	(defrecord Foo [^long x])
22:13	rhickey	(:x (Foo. 4.2)) => 4
22:13	AWizzArd	When I explicitly specified long I expect that.
22:13	rhickey	AWizzArd: it prints warning right now on any mismatch
22:14	AWizzArd	warnings/errors are fine, I will be informed as early as possible, which is a good thing
22:14	rhickey	user=> (defn foo [] (loop [x 42] (recur 4.2)))
22:14	rhickey	NO_SOURCE_FILE:2 recur arg for primitive local: x is not matching primitive, had: double, needed: long
22:14	rhickey	#'user/foo
22:15	AWizzArd	yes, this is good behaviour
22:16	AWizzArd	I just remember that in the equal branch that Licenser tested some hours ago we discovered that for (defn foo [n] (loop [n n r 1] (if (zero? n) r (recur (dec n) (* r 0.2))))) (foo 3) ==> 0 without that warning
22:17	AWizzArd	in my (1+ month old) Clojure it returns 0.008
22:18	AWizzArd	but when I specified r (long 1) then I got this useful warning
22:41	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes, the warnings used to go on with warn-on-reflection, now always on
22:44	remleduff	Is it a technical limitation that makes statics unable to be closures?
22:45	rhickey	remleduff: where would their closed-overs go?
22:49	remleduff	Oh, I was picturing them sitting there in the same generated Fn class and using the same closed-overs, but they wouldn't be accessible to static method. :)
22:53	remleduff	I was wondering why all functions couldn't be implemented in terms of a var wrapping a static method call and then use VirtualMachine.html#redefineClasses to allow dynamicism.