#clojure – 2010-06-11

2010-06-11

00:24	dnolen	anyone have example of type-hinting deftype methods?
00:31	mmarczyk	(deftype Foo [x] Object (^boolean equals [self ^Object other] true))
00:31	mmarczyk	(.equals (Foo. 5) true) => true
00:32	technomancy	who wants a generic hook function extension system?
00:32	technomancy	anybody? http://p.hagelb.org/hooke-readme.html
00:34	mmarczyk	I definitely want a hook extension system named after Robert Hooke
00:35	dnolen	marczyk: hm, I keep running into issues where it doesn't it complains about the method if I've defined a protocol
00:35	technomancy	sold! to the guy with the orange nick (in my client) http://p.hagelb.org/hooke.clj.html
00:36	mmarczyk	no idea what colour nick I've got in your client, but thanks :-)
00:37	mmarczyk	I think I'll have a use for that in a little while too, so that's pretty cool :-)
00:37	technomancy	oh?
00:37	cemerick	mmarczyk: sent in your CA yet? :-)
00:38	mmarczyk	cemerick: heh, thanks for asking :-)
00:39	mmarczyk	cemerick: will do today, it's printed and just waiting for me to go to the post office
00:39	cemerick	mmarczyk: good, I'll only have to pester you once more ;-)
00:39	mmarczyk	cemerick: right :-)))
00:39	mmarczyk	incidentally, any thoughts on whether I should include non-ascii chars or skipt them?
00:39	rava	anyone know of a decent looking gui kit i can use for clojure?
00:40	mmarczyk	I've decided to skip, but if it's a problem, could make another version...
00:40	rava	swing is so very difficult to make look decent
00:40	cemerick	rava: SWT is really the only other option
00:40	cemerick	mmarczyk: non-ascii for what?
00:40	mmarczyk	technomancy: if you're asking what sort of use for R. Hooke I had in mind, I'm not very clear on how the thing I can see using it work will work yet, so hard to summarise
00:41	mmarczyk	technomancy: I'll be sure to let you know when/if I do use it though :-)
00:41	mmarczyk	cemerick: there's one non-ascii letter in my first name and a couple in the mailing address
00:41	mmarczyk	the address is not a problem, it's perfectly normal to skip those
00:41	cemerick	mmarczyk: oh, leave them in, make it proper
00:41	tomoj	so the metadata on the function has a ::hooks key which holds a list of hook fns?
00:41	cemerick	legal document, after all
00:42	mmarczyk	right, though on the other hand, I've produced a number of legal documents in pure-ascii form
00:42	mmarczyk	I believe my bank cards are pure-ascii too, Google wanted pure ascii for GSoC...
00:42	mmarczyk	wouldn't want to make processing overly complex (and therefore I'm making it overly complex for me right now :-P)
00:43	technomancy	tomoj: yeah
00:43	technomancy	limits it to 1.2+ unfortunately
00:43	cemerick	Rich is doing the only processing, so shrug
00:43	technomancy	but hey, it's only 23 lines.
00:43	mmarczyk	yeah, I guess I can always send another one if it matters somehow
00:44	tomoj	hmm.. the bicycle and the tricycle. I approve.
00:44	rava	saw these in a best in class blog: http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/
00:45	dnolen	hmm so the the type hints have to be on the protocol?
00:45	cemerick	rava: those are swing AFAIK :-)
00:46	cemerick	plus some OS X-specific client properties
00:46	rava	cemerick: yes, but the prettyness work done for me :D
00:46	cemerick	right
00:46	cemerick	well, I was assuming you were aiming for cross-platform :-)
00:46	technomancy	would renaming add-hook to add-hooke be too cute?
00:47	cemerick	heh
00:47	technomancy	probably
00:47	cemerick	technomancy: reminds me of wall-hack-*
00:47	rava	cemerick: those do render across platforms
00:47	cemerick	rava: oh, sure, but....stick out like a sore thumb elsewhere, no?
00:48	cemerick	I mean iTunes on Windows is there, but sorta awful.
00:48	rava	cemerick: meh, i don't care about looking like a native app
00:48	cemerick	fair 'nuff then
00:49	rava	windows native = fugly anyway
00:56	ysph	did lazy-xml/emit and emit-element move into clojure.xml in 1.2?
01:01	tomoj	clojure.xml has emit and emit-element in 1.2, at least
01:08	ysph	it has before, but there were some issues that weren't present in lazy-xml/emit and emit-element, so i wonder if they were consolidated
01:09	tomoj	looks like not
01:09	tomoj	last changes to emit and emit-element in clojure.xml were in 2008
01:10	technomancy	the function that's like remove but takes an element instead of a pred is in contrib rather than core, right?
01:12	mmarczyk	in case anybody wants to play with a Turing machine, http://github.com/michalmarczyk/turing-machines
01:56	technomancy	http://github.com/technomancy/robert-hooke
02:03	Lajla	$(apply append (map #(append %1 " ") (list "I" "worship" "his" "shadow"))
02:03	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
02:04	Lajla	$(apply append (map #(append %1 " ") (list "I" "worship" "his" "shadow")))
02:04	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: append in this context
02:13	jrp	Im looking around at getting started with clojure and os x. Is there a prefered way to get it working with vim? Ive found a few vim scripts, and Im wondering what people prefer.
02:16	imran_sr	jrp: I use syntax highlighting, indenting and rainbow parens from vimclojure (but not the nailgun repl), and I use my own vimscript to send whatever I like to a repl (current line, current expression, function, entire buffer, (doc <this word), whatever). And I keep vim and the repl side by side in a vert split gnu screen
02:16	imran_sr	whew, thats it :)
02:17	tomoj	Lajla: maybe you're looking for clojure.contrib.str-utils/str-join ?
02:17	jrp	hm, ok. ill give that a shot. I tried slimv but it was a bit problematic
02:17	Lajla	$(apply join (map #(join %1 " ") (list "I" "worship" "his" "shadow")))
02:17	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: join in this context
02:17	Lajla	I give up
02:17	Lajla	tomoj, you do it
02:17	Lajla	Outperform me
02:17	Lajla	Be the third best programmer after me and Bill.
02:18	tomoj	somebody already did it
02:18	tomoj	and it's in contrib :)
02:19	hoeck	,(apply str (interpose " " ["I" "worship" "his" "shadow"]))
02:19	clojurebot	"I worship his shadow"
02:19	imran_sr	jrp: I found the idea (for vimscript to repl communication) here : http://technotales.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/like-slime-for-vim/
02:19	imran_sr	jrp: there you'll find a simple slime.vim
02:20	imran_sr	jrp: I rewrote my own version, for additional functionality (plus it now works with latest gnu-screen from git)
02:20	imran_sr	jrp: but if you don't use gnu-screen, it won't really help you :(
02:25	Lajla	tomoj, you worship my shadow eh?
02:25	Lajla	tomoj, also, your function does a different thing
02:25	Lajla	Mine ends on a space, yours doesn't.
02:26	jrp	imran_sr: I do use a bit of screen, perhaps I should use more
02:26	tomoj	Lajla: my function?
02:26	imran_sr	jrp: best thing since sliced bread :)
02:26	Lajla	erhh, hoecks.
02:26	Lajla	I misread.
02:26	Lajla	tomoj, will you ever be able to forgive me for my errings?
02:27	tomoj	like this, then?
02:27	tomoj	,(#(apply str (interleave %2 (repeat %1))) " " ["I" "worship" "his" "shadow"])
02:27	clojurebot	"I worship his shadow "
02:28	hiredman	,(doc interpose)
02:28	clojurebot	"([sep coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the elements of coll separated by sep"
02:30	hoeck	Lajla: not ending in whitespace was intended :)
02:30	Lajla	hoeck, my shadow ends with blackspace.
02:31	hoeck	,(apply str (interleave ["I" "worship" "his" "shadow"] (repeat " ")))
02:31	clojurebot	"I worship his shadow "
02:31	hoeck	interleave, interpose, I love them! :P
02:31	Lajla	I want to map over it.
02:32	Lajla	I worship His Divine Map.
02:51	LauJensen	Good morning all
02:52	vIkSiT	hey LauJensen
02:55	vIkSiT	hmm, in Clojure - how do you handle the class paradigm, with a bunch of local variables that are bound to it?
02:56	tomoj	bound to what?
02:56	tomoj	a class?
02:56	vIkSiT	yes
02:56	tomoj	I certainly don't understand you
02:57	vIkSiT	well, so lets assume I have a stack class
02:57	tomoj	,(let [x java.lang.String] x)
02:57	clojurebot	java.lang.String
02:57	tomoj	x is bound to String
02:57	KirinDave	vIkSiT: If you have something where it makes sense to tightly encapsulate the behavior that way
02:57	vIkSiT	this contains say, 3 variables - a, b, and c. and 3 methods: push, pop and peek.
02:57	KirinDave	vIkSiT: Then these days you'd use deftype and a stack protocol (along with other collection interfaces)
02:57	vIkSiT	hmm
02:57	KirinDave	vIkSiT: But clojure prefers you don't clutter the world with superfluous ontologies
02:58	tomoj	:D
02:58	KirinDave	Clojure is verb oriented.
02:58	vIkSiT	KirinDave, yes I understand how to use protocols, multimethods and deftypes
02:58	vIkSiT	the question is - how does Clojure allow me to use verbs to define the same relationships?
02:59	LauJensen	protocols, namespaces, hash-maps can all be used in some way to bundle behavior
02:59	KirinDave	vIkSiT: (pop stack), (push stack item), (count stack). And a namespace. Do you need more?
02:59	vIkSiT	LauJensen, hmm, you mean using a hash map to store variable info. hmm
03:00	vIkSiT	could use that
03:00	KirinDave	vIkSiT: It may seem a little loosely bound if you're not used to it, but consider the monad library for a good example of how an opaque namespace can give the illusion of a unified interface if you don't know the details.
03:00	LauJensen	vIkSiT: When Clojure first came out, people basically substituted objects with hash-maps, which was why Rich had to rush to implement it, otherwise people wouldnt try Clojure :)
03:00	LauJensen	KirinDave: You said 'monad', now I have to ban you from the community
03:00	KirinDave	LauJensen: Why?
03:01	LauJensen	They're that terrible :)
03:01	vIkSiT	KirinDave, thanks, let me check it out
03:01	vIkSiT	LauJensen, heh I can imagine
03:01	KirinDave	Monads are fantastically useful in a few limited situations. Those situations are rare.
03:01	LauJensen	KirinDave: And they all exist in Haskell
03:01	tomoj	in clojure, you mean?
03:01	vIkSiT	KirinDave, any pointers to code here? http://bitbucket.org/kotarak/monad
03:01	tomoj	rare in clojure, you mean?, I mean
03:01	KirinDave	vIkSiT: Just read the docs to the contrib monad library
03:01	KirinDave	tomoj: No, rare in life. You can use them to solve other things
03:01	KirinDave	But you shouldn't.
03:02	Raynes	LauJensen: You're a Haskell hater?
03:02	Raynes	:<
03:02	LauJensen	Raynes: Im a Haskell lover :)
03:02	vIkSiT	hmmm. I see. So substitute a namespace for a class scope
03:02	KirinDave	LauJensen: I'm confused.
03:02	mmarczyk	morning
03:03	Raynes	I'm confused.
03:03	KirinDave	LauJensen: btw thanks for open sourcing your blog.
03:03	LauJensen	I just dislike monads - Primarily because they are a way of hiding state, not handling it. Which is why Clojure is already more popular because it provides a uniform solution to the state problem. And secondly, the name is just so uuuugly.
03:03	LauJensen	KirinDave: You're welcome
03:03	KirinDave	LauJensen: They're great for implementing some specific things though. As a component for a parser for example.
03:03	mmarczyk	I need to have the KirinDave / LauJensen two lines on monads and Haskell on a t-shirt
03:03	KirinDave	And the maybe monad is pretty much universally useful.
03:03	KirinDave	Even in my ruby days I pretended I had it with \|\|= chaining.
03:04	LauJensen	hehe
03:04	brehaut	KirinDave: so is the list monad, though we call it for ;)
03:04	mmarczyk	ah, but monads are not only for dealing with state
03:04	KirinDave	LauJensen: I bought http://fayr.am
03:04	KirinDave	LauJensen: Which is my last name
03:04	KirinDave	LauJensen: I figure that's a good place to host a blog.
03:04	mmarczyk	I prefer to think of them as a means of adding complex behaviour to function composition
03:04	LauJensen	Yea why wouldnt it be?
03:05	KirinDave	Too bad my middle name isn't http://
03:05	LauJensen	mmarczyk: I think per definition, Scala is a means of adding complex behavior to function composition :)
03:05	LauJensen	KirinDave: Yea that would have been sweet
03:05	KirinDave	ha
03:05	LauJensen	KirinDave: My only regret, is that my blog is married to nginx
03:05	KirinDave	Man I cannot wait for prim to go into main.
03:05	LauJensen	I might make a teepeedee2 branch :)
03:06	mmarczyk	LauJensen: it certainly appears so from the syntax :-)
03:06	brehaut	LauJensen: whats the problem with nginx?
03:07	KirinDave	brehaut: It's a sort of pain of the ass for a small installation.
03:07	jrp	imran_sr: are you still around? Im trying to get slime.vim working, and wondering what sort of modifications I need to make
03:07	LauJensen	brehaut: No problem, its fantastic. I just didnt want the blog to be married to it. And I think teepeedee2 has 2 advantages: 1) serves 6500 customers per second, 2) written in Lisp
03:07	brehaut	KirinDave: oh really? i was looking at using it when ive rebuilt my site
03:07	KirinDave	Hmm.
03:08	LauJensen	KirinDave: ?!
03:08	LauJensen	A pain?
03:08	LauJensen	Its quite the opposite
03:08	KirinDave	LauJensen: Not in my experience.
03:08	LauJensen	Apache is like that elefant which everybody tries to bring to every party
03:08	KirinDave	LauJensen: I'm not advocating apache
03:08	LauJensen	(I know I know, only Raynes actually bring elephants to parties)
03:08	KirinDave	Hum, what lens to rent for this architectural shoot?
03:09	LauJensen	Ok - I just find nginx to be very lean and clean, easy to set up and runs completely problem free
03:09	brehaut	ive been tossing up between lighty and nginx
03:09	KirinDave	24mm tiltshift
03:09	LauJensen	Ive never had to restart or anything
03:09	KirinDave	or 14-24mm?
03:09	LauJensen	http://github.com/vii/teepeedee2
03:14	brehaut	another clojure for web question; how much ram would you expect the JVM to need to operate comfortably for a small (personal scale) site?
03:14	imran_sr	jrp: sorry, was away. If you using the latest gnu-screen (I don't know what version your linux distro has packaged for you, but I build from git sources), then I would suggest that you dump the way the original slime.vim was communicating with screen
03:15	imran_sr	Instead, try this: write text to a file -> read it into a screen register -> dump register to stdin of desired screen window
03:16	imran_sr	I really ought to cleanup my vimscript, and put it online.
03:16	jrp	i dont think I am
03:16	jrp	yeah, Im using a version from oct 06
03:16	jrp	apparently
03:16	imran_sr	ok, so if you look at slime.vim from that webpage I posted
03:16	jrp	yep, got it installed
03:17	imran_sr	its basically doing this (to send text from vim to screen)
03:17	jrp	do I need to modify the -X stuff part?
03:17	imran_sr	text -> escape awkward chars -> inserting into it a screen stuff command -> run screen stuff
03:17	jrp	yep
03:17	imran_sr	I changed the method of communicating with screen to instead do this: write text to a file -> read it into a screen register -> dump register to stdin of desired screen window
03:17	imran_sr	that works flawlessly
03:18	KirinDave	Hm, I'm trying to decide if http://twelvesouth.com/products/bookbook/ is awesome or tacky.
03:18	imran_sr	jrp: but without cleaning up my own slime.vim, I'm not helping you much :(
03:18	KirinDave	I have a http://www.dodocase.com/ and its totally awesome (and not tacky)
03:19	KirinDave	But the bookbook is a little more ostentatious.
03:21	vIkSiT	hmm, what does a (def +something+ 3) imply?
03:21	vIkSiT	a local variable?
03:22	brehaut	vIkSiT: yes http://clojure.org/vars
03:22	KirinDave	vIkSiT: It's a var in the current scope.
03:22	imran_sr	jrp: tell you what. I can send you my slime.vim as it is. You just have to pop it into ~/.vim/plugin/, and try it out.
03:22	LauJensen	imran_sr: That depends on how much the app consumes. If you have an app that at any point holds 350Mb in memory, then you need more than that. If its just for simple interfaces run on a Jetty servlet, then 128mb should be fine. But there's no answer that fits all. So far Best In Class is doing _quite_ well with 256m
03:22	vIkSiT	ah
03:22	vIkSiT	thanks
03:22	brehaut	vIkSiT: 'local' variables are normally defined with let forms
03:22	vIkSiT	ah right..
03:23	KirinDave	vIkSiT: Let me confuse you even more: vars are mutable by assignment. :)
03:23	vIkSiT	this would be in the current ns, I believe
03:23	bartj	er, is it possible to use back-references for regular expressions in Clojure ala Perl, etc?
03:23	imran_sr	oh well
03:24	brehaut	bartj: its anything you can do with a normal java regexp
03:24	vIkSiT	KirinDave, well, they're thread-local right?
03:24	KirinDave	vIkSiT: yes.
03:24	KirinDave	vIkSiT: Well, generally they are.
03:25	brehaut	bartj: http://www.regular-expressions.info/java.html
03:26	jrp	imran_sr: there we go, im very sorry. Could you paste whatever you said from when you were explaining how slime.vim work until now?
03:27	vIkSiT	LauJensen, re your statement about using maps to store variable information
03:27	vIkSiT	can such maps/structs be made part of a protocol?
03:28	LauJensen	vIkSiT: Yea I suppose they can be wrapped, though Im not sure if there's any idiomatic support for doing it yet
03:28	vIkSiT	hmm..
03:29	vIkSiT	would you have pointers on something that does this?
03:29	vIkSiT	or actually - here's what I'm trying to do
03:29	vIkSiT	imperatively, I'd have a class called Tuple, that would have a map as a local variable, and a few supporting methods that act on it
03:30	vIkSiT	so each tuple would carry its instance of the map
03:30	brehaut	vIkSiT: instead of having a class or type contain the map, just pass the map around
03:31	vIkSiT	brehaut, hmm, as in?
03:31	brehaut	say i have a blog post with a title, a description and a timestamp
03:31	brehaut	instaed of defining a type
03:31	tomoj	what do Tuples do that vectors don't?
03:32	vIkSiT	tomoj, this is a database tuple btw. not a pair class..
03:32	LauJensen	vIkSiT: To me it sounds like the description of a standard protocol
03:32	tomoj	oh, I see
03:32	tomoj	so a Tuple is a mapping from field names to values?
03:32	brehaut	id just create a new hash map say {:title "frobtz" :description "foo bar baz" :timestamp "2010.06.10"}
03:32	tomoj	yeah.. :)
03:33	vIkSiT	tomoj, yeap..
03:33	vIkSiT	.. or trying to anyway.
03:33	brehaut	vIkSiT: a basic toy rdbms would have tables that are sets of vectors
03:34	LauJensen	(defrecord tuple [x y z]) (defprotocol Ptuple (add []) (remove [])) instantiate it with the maps data, and thats it ?
03:34	vIkSiT	brehaut, well almost. a tuple looks like : [(field1, type) , (field2, type).. ]
03:34	brehaut	vIkSiT: then a set of maps ;)
03:34	vIkSiT	LauJensen, aah yes.
03:35	vIkSiT	hmm I think a vector of maps, yeap :)
03:35	brehaut	vIkSiT: typically a relational DB doesnt allow duplicate records in the table ;) but sure
03:36	bartj	brehaut: thanks,
03:36	vIkSiT	brehaut, ah this is the schema representation of the table..
03:36	brehaut	vIkSiT: ah right
03:36	bartj	brehaut: though, I am not able to find the difference between re-find and re-seq
03:36	vIkSiT	the records, yes I agree
03:36	bartj	brehaut: since both return sequence of the matches!
03:37	LauJensen	bartj: one is lazy the other isnt
03:37	tomoj	re-find shouldn't return a sequence..
03:38	LauJensen	$(re-find #"[1-9]" "abc 1 2 3 def 2")
03:38	tomoj	,((juxt re-find re-seq) #"foo" "foobarfoo")
03:38	sexpbot	=> "1"
03:38	clojurebot	["foo" ("foo" "foo")]
03:38	LauJensen	$(re-seq #"[1-9]" "abc 1 2 3 def 2")
03:38	sexpbot	=> ("1" "2" "3" "2")
03:38	LauJensen	tomoj: clever demo
03:44	bartj	LauJensen: thanks
03:44	bartj	while trying to find the "domain-name" of a URL, I came up with this:
03:45	bartj	, (nth (re-find #"(https?://)?(www\.)?([^/]+)(.*?)" "http://www.spr-ufo.ru/hanti-mansiysk-g/irtish-servis-zao.html") 3)
03:45	clojurebot	"spr-ufo.ru"
03:45	tomoj	seems seq is 2x faster in prim
03:46	bartj	not sure, if re-seq (or anything better) would be preferable
03:46	LauJensen	clojurebot: regex?
03:46	clojurebot	Sometimes people have a problem, and decide to solve it with regular expressions. Now they have two problems.
03:46	vu3rdd	:-)
03:47	tomoj	,(.getHost (java.net.URL. "http://www.spr-ufo.ru/hanti-mansiysk-g/irtish-servis-zao.html"))
03:47	clojurebot	"www.spr-ufo.ru"
03:47	tomoj	part of the way there
03:48	tomoj	getting only the domain name would require a tld list, wouldn't it?
03:49	tomoj	err
03:49	tomoj	I mean the second-level domains like co.uk cause trouble
03:53	LauJensen	Odd that java.net.URL doesnt support that
03:54	brehaut	is there a function like concat that joins to vectors?
03:55	LauJensen	conj you mean ?
03:55	brehaut	i dont think so?
03:55	tomoj	that would be O(n), you OK with that?
03:55	LauJensen	you dont?
03:56	LauJensen	$(-> (.split "http://www.spr-ufo.ru/hanti-mansiysk-g/irtish-servis-zao.html" "\\.") (nth 1))
03:56	sexpbot	=> "spr-ufo"
03:56	brehaut	LauJensen: if i conj a vector onto a vector, the result will be the first vec with the second as the last elem
03:56	LauJensen	oh, you want a flat sequence ?
03:56	brehaut	yeah
03:57	LauJensen	$(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
03:57	sexpbot	=> [1 2 3 4 5 6]
03:57	brehaut	cheers
03:57	tomoj	does that use InternalReduce now?
03:58	tomoj	oh, it will use a transient I guess
04:01	tomoj	AND InternalReduce
04:02	HerrBlume	$(concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
04:02	sexpbot	=> (1 2 3 4 5 6)
04:03	Raynes	concat returns a lazyseq.
04:03	HerrBlume	ah ok
04:03	Raynes	That particular application of into returns a vector.
04:03	bartj	LauJensen: that doesn't get the '.ru' extension, no?
04:03	Raynes	Returns whatever it's first argument is.
04:03	HerrBlume	$(into (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6))
04:03	sexpbot	=> (6 5 4 1 2 3)
04:06	bartj	, (.getHost (java.net.URL. "http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10290933.stm"))
04:06	clojurebot	"news.bbc.co.uk"
04:07	bartj	tomoj: apparently the second-level domains, don't cause any trouble?
04:07	tomoj	but you've still got the subdomain there
04:07	bartj	tomj: I don't understand?
04:07	LauJensen	bartj: No its a bit of a hack, it just splits the string on periods and picks out the 2nd match. It only gets the second match, and will break if the www. isnt there
04:07	tomoj	I thought you wanted only "bbc.co.uk"
04:09	bartj	tomoj: no, that's ok - the complete domain would do
04:09	tomoj	you still get the "www" though
04:10	tomoj	if you don't mind that, then yeah, no problem
04:12	tomoj	wonder why protocol fns don't get :file and :line metadata
04:14	LauJensen	hmm, sure they dont?
04:15	tomoj	well, my clojure.core.protocols/internal-reduce didn't, anyway
04:15	tomoj	I'm not sure swank-clojure could deal with it even if they did, but it would be at least one step closer M-. on protocol fns
04:15	tomoj	s.closer.closer to.
04:46	Borkdude	Why doesn't (find-first even? (repeat (rand-int 10))) terminate?
04:47	tomoj	,(take 5 (repeat (rand-int 10)))
04:47	clojurebot	(3 3 3 3 3)
04:47	tomoj	,(take 5 (repeatedly #(rand-int 10)))
04:47	clojurebot	(3 5 2 2 6)
04:49	Raynes	,(rseq [1 2 3])
04:49	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
04:49	tomoj	why not just (* (rand-int 5) 2), though?
04:50	Borkdude	tomoj, that's also possible, but I was just wondering
04:51	Borkdude	why it doesn't terminate
04:51	tomoj	still wondering?
04:51	Raynes	$(take 10 (repeat (rand-int 10)))
04:51	sexpbot	=> (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
04:51	Raynes	It doesn't terminate because you aren't calling the function over and over again, you're repeating it's first result over and over again.
04:51	tomoj	it will sometimes terminate :)
04:52	Raynes	Use his repeatedly example, Borkdude.
04:52	LauJensen	or the force... both can sway the results
04:53	tomoj	repeat is a function, so (rand-int 10) is first evaluated, then the result is passed to repeat
04:53	Borkdude	hmm, ok, yes
04:53	Borkdude	of course
06:20	vu3rdd	Is it okay to assume that #^ is deprecated for >= 1.2 and ^ is the new meta (and hence type-hint) reader syntax?
06:27	Chousuke	yes
06:52	octe	i'm trying to have a reference to a function in a map and call it dynamically, but i can't seem to get it work. this is what i have: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111346
06:59	raek	octe: remove the quote before file-data-collector
07:00	octe	raek, that seems to evaluate the value of the key in the map when defining the data-collectors map
07:00	raek	data-collectors contains a map with entry, which key is "file" and value _the symbol_ file-data-collector
07:00	octe	uh.. or maybe not
07:01	raek	yes, you would want to evaluate file-data-collector to get the function that it represents
07:01	raek	so that the value of the map entry is the function itself
07:01	MrHus	octe: (def data-collectors {"file" file-data-collector}) without the quote works for me
07:02	raek	,(let [foo {:my-fn (fn [x] (* x x))}] ((:my-fn foo) 5))
07:02	clojurebot	25
07:03	raek	also, it's common to use keywords as keys for maps
07:04	raek	two keywords with the same name are guaranteed to be the same instance
07:05	raek	so even though the keyword :my-fn may occur 1000 times in the code, all uses referes to the same object
07:06	octe	raek, can i make a string into a keyword?
07:06	raek	yes
07:06	octe	because i will be looking it up by string..
07:07	raek	just use (keyword "the-string")
07:07	raek	beware of strings with spaces in, though
07:07	octe	ah
07:07	octe	raek, i found why i didn't think it was evaulating at lookup-time
07:07	raek	they will not print correctly: (keyword "foo bar") => :foo bar
07:08	octe	if i recreate (re-bind? re-evauluate?) the file-data-collector fn i need to also re-avulate the (def data-collectors
07:08	octe	to update the reference i guess
07:08	raek	ah, yes
07:08	raek	you can then write #'file-data-collector instead of file-data-collector
07:09	raek	this stores the var that the was bound to the function rather than the function itself
07:09	octe	ah, thanks. what does that actually do? (fn [] 'file-data-collector)
07:09	raek	fn is lambda
07:09	octe	i thought # was a reader-macro of some sort for fn
07:09	raek	yes, when followed by a paren :)
07:10	raek	#'foo => (var foo)
07:10	raek	pronounced "var quote"
07:10	raek	when a var is used as the function in a function application, it firsts looks up the value of the var and uses that instead
07:11	raek	so vars containing functions can be used as functions
07:11	octe	ah, ok
07:11	raek	,#'inc
07:11	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/inc
07:11	raek	,(inc 1)
07:11	clojurebot	2
07:11	octe	these special things are nice, but hard to google for :)
07:11	raek	,(#'inc 1)
07:11	clojurebot	2
07:12	raek	var-quote is often used when you want to store redefinable functions in data structures, like in your case
07:12	raek	you only need to do this in data, though
07:13	raek	in code, the vars are always used
07:16	octe	thanks, raek
07:22	tomoj	I guess that's why invoking a var invokes the function it's bound to?
07:23	raek	probably a convenience feature
07:23	ior3k	hey everyone
07:23	raek	so one doesn't have to use deref
07:23	Chousuke	I don't think there's much else that a var could reasonably do when invoked
07:24	ior3k	I'm a freelancer, and I'd like to start using clojure on my work
07:24	tomoj	good point
07:24	ior3k	but I'm not exactly sure how to convince my clients about that
07:24	ior3k	anyone has thoughts on this?
07:24	rsynnott	ior3k: what do you currently use in your work?
07:24	ior3k	ruby, mostly
07:25	ior3k	but I have experience with several languages
07:25	tomoj	too bad you didn't say 'java'
07:25	Chousuke	ior3k: you could try telling them you're just using java library ;P
07:25	rsynnott	tomoj: yeah, that's what I was thinking
07:25	ior3k	that's not the same though
07:25	ior3k	one thing is a java lib
07:25	ior3k	the other is a completely different language
07:25	ior3k	if for some reason, someone else needs to look at the code
07:26	rsynnott	though if you used jruby, and then say, "ooh, look, I can do X thing a hundred times faster, but only if I write it in this scary devil-language"
07:26	rsynnott	(write that section in)
07:26	tomoj	if random other people are going to have to look at the code, clojure sounds like a bad idea to me
07:26	ior3k	well, I guess jruby is one step in the right direction, that's for sure
07:26	rsynnott	ior3k: in general, using exotic languages for things where the client gets the source is often difficult
07:26	ior3k	yeah, you never really know when that's going to happen,
07:27	rsynnott	(if you just give them the binary, you can use whatever you feel like, of course)
07:27	ior3k	I guess I could always ask them if they have a language preference
07:27	ior3k	but most do
07:28	Raynes	It's too bad that most of them don't know the difference between Clojure and COBOL.
07:28	ior3k	hehe, they shouldn't have to
07:28	Raynes	"I herd Java is pop u lur."
07:28	ior3k	but using an unknown language is quite a risk for them
07:28	ior3k	if I get hit by a bus
07:28	ior3k	they will have trouble finding someone else to maintain the app
07:29	Raynes	ior3k: Get an Iron Man suit, and give them your personal I'll-never-die guarantee.
07:29	Raynes	;)
07:29	ior3k	hahaha
07:29	ior3k	I wish
07:29	rsynnott	two of us left more or less at once :S
07:29	ior3k	yeah, that's really not a position I want to put my clients in
07:30	ior3k	even though I'd love to be able to use clojure
07:30	ior3k	I just love lisp :)
07:30	Raynes	One day.
07:31	rsynnott	there does seem to be a general trend towards non-Java languages on JVM
07:31	ior3k	yeah
07:31	rsynnott	(and non C# languages on .NET, for that matter, though that platform's slightly more of a niche)
07:31	Raynes	ior3k: Just think: somewhere, in an alternate universe, you're rocking Clojure all over your clients because Java died in the late 90s.
07:31	ior3k	hehe
07:31	ior3k	well, it's true that clojure still allows you to use several java libs
07:31	rsynnott	Raynes: it would hardly be clojure, if not for the JVM, surely?
07:32	ior3k	and therefore be more productive
07:32	Raynes	rsynnott: I said "java died".
07:32	Raynes	Implying other languages took it's place.
07:32	rsynnott	I doubt that exactly the same design decisions would have been taken if the JVM wasn't the target
07:32	rsynnott	ah
07:32	rsynnott	I thought you meant just java died in general
07:32	Raynes	Maybe Rich is older in this universe, or decided to create Clojure earlier in his life.
07:32	rsynnott	(which would presumably mean Sun would never have bothered with proper JIT)
07:33	ior3k	to be honest, I'm not really fond of using java libs in clojure
07:33	Raynes	I don't really have to do that much anymore.
07:33	ior3k	using a non functional black box in a functional language
07:33	ior3k	feels weird
07:34	ior3k	so you think it's getting to a point where there is enough native/wrapped stuff?
07:34	ior3k	Raynes: ^^^
07:35	Raynes	ior3k: Either that, or I just don't do enough specific stuff to have to use Java libs.
07:35	Raynes	Besides the standard libs, of course.
07:36	ior3k	oh well
07:36	ior3k	thank you everyone for your thoughts
07:50	rsynnott	it is nice having access to them, though :)
07:50	rsynnott	with the possible exception of Objective C/C, Clojure/Java interaction is about the nicest interaction between two languages I'v used
07:53	Licenser	why is it that I have the feeling that the lisp comunities hobby is to rant on over every lisp but what they find the best?
07:54	tomoj	seems like there's plenty of ranting about the lisp they like as well :)
07:54	Chousuke	rsynnott: I wouldn't count ObjectiveC as "integrated" with C. it IS C, with a bit of syntax for classes and message passing
07:54	Licenser	it is sad, I mean why can't they all work together?
07:55	tomoj	because CL is divinely inspired and we are heretics
07:55	rsynnott	Licenser: in fairness, CL and Clojure are _extremely_ different languages
07:56	rsynnott	(CL isn't functional, for instance)
07:56	Chousuke	some CL people are probably a bit peeved that Clojure has generated so much hype
07:57	Chousuke	(most probably aren't though)
07:58	Chousuke	It would be awesome if CL were used as widely as Java is, but I think that's not possible any more :/
07:59	Chousuke	CL has found its niche and seems to have got stuck in it :P
08:00	lpetit	Hi, any maven guru here ?
08:01	Licenser	rsynnott: I'd just hope that people would sit together and make the best out of things
08:01	Chousuke	Licenser: the problem is that people have differing views on what is best
08:02	rsynnott	Licenser: the two languages are useful for different things
08:02	tomoj	problem?
08:02	clojurebot	People have a problem and think "Hey! I'll use a regular expression!". Now they have two problems....
08:02	rsynnott	there's some crossover, of course
08:02	Chousuke	What works best in practice is competition. But it needs to be the friendly kind.
08:02	lpetit	tomoj: There's this cool war:inplace goal. Works great, but ....
08:04	lpetit	tomoj: I'm working on a webapp. I'm with Eclipse. So I used eclipse:eclipse goal, which sets my project as dependent of other dependency projects in the workspace. That's cool, but ...
08:04	Licenser	Chousuke: but there is little friendly about the competition I think
08:04	Chousuke	I suppose :/
08:05	tomoj	lpetit: wait, I didn't mean to suggest I'm a maven guru, sorry
08:05	rsynnott	Licenser: I've never seen any particular hostility on either side, and there's some overlap in terms of people
08:05	Chousuke	though I think most of the actual active people are ignoring Clojure and just doing stuff :P
08:05	lpetit	tomoj: war:inplace does not know about the eclipse:eclipse configuration, and keeps copying the snapshots of my workspace dependencies in the WEB-INF/lib/ directory. If I forget to remove them manually, when launching my webapp, it's not the code from the other projects that gets used, but the one in WEB-INF/lib
08:05	rsynnott	CL people are often rather cruel about Arc, but that's because it's crap, not because of some vicious competition
08:05	lpetit	tomoj: too late. Know you must answer ! :-)
08:05	tomoj	I do use maven, but none of that stuff :(
08:06	Chousuke	rsynnott: Does anyone still take Arc seriously?
08:06	lpetit	tomoj: maybe you know how to add behaviour after the invocation of some other goal ?
08:06	tomoj	nope
08:06	lpetit	:-(
08:07	rsynnott	Chousuke: did anyone ever?
08:07	Chousuke	rsynnott: maybe
08:07	rsynnott	but it's the only widespead instance I can think of of CL people attacking another language
08:07	_fogus_	rsynnott: I suppose some Lispers view Arc as less than good, but I never saw the hostility as stemming from that point
08:11	_fogus_	I'm no expert, but I always saw the gripe against Arc coming from the fact that pg hyped Lisp, got it to the brink of relevance again, and then abandoned it for Arc.
08:11	Raynes	Licenser: I've had good experiences with the one CLer that I know. I've discussed Clojure with him, he learned stuff from it, and has a pleasant view of it. Although he's persistent in not actually using Clojure, he likes it and is just happy that Lisp of any sort is gaining popularity.
08:12	Raynes	There was that loper-os guy, but other than that, I haven't seen much.
08:13	tomoj	where does all this unfriendly stuff happen? in the blogosphere?
08:13	_fogus_	I don't know enough about Arc itself, but many of the complaints against it seem to suggest that its a thin layer over Lisp/Scheme
08:13	Raynes	The comments on that loper dude's post were pretty shockingly hostile as well. Most of them didn't appear to have ever seen much of Clojure, and just wanted to join in with the Clojure hate-fest.
08:13	_fogus_	As for Clojure, there will always be LoperOS guys no matter what, so why worry about it?
08:13	rsynnott	Raynes: which post is this?
08:14	Licenser	well this axis of eval guy was beyond hostile and yes the loperOS guy wasn't nice either
08:14	rsynnott	ah, found it
08:14	_fogus_	I doubt Rich loses much sleep over it
08:14	Raynes	rsynnott: That one. :p
08:14	rsynnott	I don't think either person is actually particularly big in the CL community, though
08:14	tomoj	oh, "Clojure is the False Lisp, which Reeketh of the Cube Farm." hehe
08:15	cemerick	_fogus_: I think people would have been very happy with arc if it had delivered something notable technically. Renaming standard fns was a helluva letdown after all of that (very good) yammering.
08:16	cemerick	Just* renaming, that is
08:16	lpetit	cemerick: you for sure are a maven expert, aren't you ?
08:16	cemerick	heh
08:16	cemerick	lpetit: perhaps in here.... :-)
08:17	cemerick	one-eyed man and all that
08:17	_fogus_	cemerick: I wish I knew enough about Arc's capabilities. But what you say seems to be a common theme.
08:17	cemerick	;-)
08:17	lpetit	cemerick: I have this goal which does almost what I want, but not totally. I want an ant-task (via antRunner, I've just discovered how to use it) to be run just after the goal is run.
08:19	lpetit	lpetit: to be precise: mvn war:inplace copies 3 files in WEB-INF/lib/ that I don't want. So I want to delete them. Easy enough. But I want to have them deleted by configuring my pom.xml so that when writing mvn war:inplace, my deletion task will also be called
08:21	lpetit	:)
08:25	cemerick	lpetit: surely you'd want to use excludes instead of cleaning up the results afterwards?
08:25	rhickey	any feedback on prim branch?
08:26	lpetit	cemerick: I've tried to configure the war:inplace plugin, but without much result. which exclude configuration are you thinking about ?
08:28	chouser	rhickey: I'm porting our codebase now. Should have results to report yet this morning.
08:28	rhickey	chouser: was the codebase on master?
08:29	rhickey	It shouldn't require any changes if so
08:29	chouser	an older master. we were using deftype pre-defrecord
08:29	rhickey	chouser: ah, and are many of our types going to become records?
08:30	rhickey	your types
08:30	chouser	yes. all, I think.
08:35	chouser	oh, whoops. Not all. custom equiv
08:41	rhickey	chouser: for numeric equiv or something else?
08:43	chouser	it's an object that represents a byte string as a offset/length into a byte array.
08:43	rhickey	chouser: why would that become a record anyway?
08:44	chouser	I've been assuming things should use defrecord unless there's a reason to prefer deftype
08:45	rhickey	defrecord is for information and deftype is for program constructs
08:49	dnolen	hmm, so is definterface still an AOT kind of thing? and is it the only way to specify primitive args/return ?
08:49	dnolen	specify primitive args/return for derecord methods I mean.
08:50	dnolen	s/derecord/defrecord
08:50	rhickey	dnolen: 1)definterface is dynamic, and 2) well, maybe not after static
08:51	chouser	heh
08:51	chouser	oh
08:51	chouser	maybe not the only way to do primitives. I misunderstood for a moment.
08:51	rhickey	One of the things driving static is the number of times I've had to create a dummy interface just to get helper methods that take/return primitives. Now these can just be fns
08:52	rhickey	I'm still contemplating the relationship between static and protocols
08:53	dnolen	rhickey: so one issue I've seen with with using statics for helpers method is I need to add a lot of args for the fields of the defrecord so I don't pay for the cost of field lookup time when there's lots of iterations
08:54	dnolen	in that case I would prefer that the deftype method allow primitive arg/return
08:54	dnolen	sadly I've been unable to decipher the proper syntax to do this after looking at gvec :P
08:54	rhickey	dnolen: field lookup via '.' ?
08:55	dnolen	rhickey: ah, so that's just as fast just referring to that field when "inside" a defrecord method? I've been sticking with :field access.
08:55	rhickey	one issue with statics for that is the circular def problem.
08:56	rhickey	dnolen: even :field access is fast for deftypes
08:56	chouser	defrecords?
08:56	rhickey	sorry, defrecords
08:57	dnolen	true, but I get like a 3X speed boost if I avoid it, and have those be parameters to my static methods
08:57	dnolen	well, perhaps overstating more like 2-2.5X or something.
08:58	rhickey	the problem is: a static can't use the type of the deftype before its used, and if defined after, can't be used by the deftype impl itself. But this could become a decl thing
08:58	rhickey	deftype before it is defined
08:58	rhickey	such decls being not much slimmer than definterfaces :(
08:59	AWizzArd	rhickey: is there possibly a way to have something like Protocolls for concrete objects?
09:02	dnolen	rhickey: interesting. I anycase it's still a massive improvement. The code got 1.5X faster from a version that used type-hinting macros. And I love not having to write type hints inside methods.
09:03	rhickey	AWizzArd: I don't know what that means
09:06	AWizzArd	rhickey: Example: in my db system I build indexes for data. There is a (defrecord Index ...). Every Index should be able to report how many elements it holds, a fn to serialize its data, to deserialize it, etc. But: the underlying datastructure that holds the objects inside the many Indexes can differ. In principle each instance of Index should follow a Protocoll, not all Indexes the same.
09:07	rhickey	AWizzArd: still don't get it
09:10	dnolen	rhickey: oh yeah, I thought it was weird that the order of primitive args/return hints differed between definterface and statics (but I guess your saying this is part of the part you're mulling over)
09:10	AWizzArd	Imagine you have the maps M1 = {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3} and M2 = {:x #{1 2 3}, :y #{4}, :z #{5 6}}. And you have a protocoll Cache, which defines get-element-count. For M1 this would be 3, and for M2 this would be 6. We can not simply extend Maps with this protocoll. Both concrete instances need their own implementation of count.
09:12	rhickey	AWizzArd: that's why you have records
09:12	AWizzArd	Yes, I was already thinking about writing a macro which will dynamically emit defrecords
09:12	rhickey	no plans for per-instance protocol impls
09:13	AWizzArd	ok
09:13	rhickey	it adds a step to dispatch that will slow down everyone else
09:13	AWizzArd	yes, that would not make sense
09:14	AWizzArd	I just came across this and some days ago chouser had a similar challenge, so I just wanted to ask if this could make sense.
09:20	rhickey	instance methods bring equality/identity, dispatch and GC issues
09:21	AWizzArd	Yes, and there are ways to work around those issues, and I guess they arise not often.
09:21	chouser	I don't see what I'm doing wrong here: (reify clojure.lang.ILookup (valAt [k])) ;=> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: valAt
09:22	hoeck	this?
09:22	clojurebot	this is not allegro
09:23	chouser	hoeck: gah. thanks.
09:23	hoeck	:)
09:30	candera	Licenser: ping
09:35	raek	now I wanna make another IRC bot.
09:36	raek	irclj looks really neat
09:36	Licenser	candera: pong
09:36	raek	Raynes: you're awesome!
09:37	candera	Licenser: been trying to come up to speed on clj-swing. Having some problem with adding an ActionListener.
09:37	Licenser	you have an example?
09:37	candera	Yep. Pasting into a gist now. One sec.
09:39	candera	http://gist.github.com/434478
09:40	candera	My action listener never seems to fire.
09:40	candera	Keeping in mind that I'm new to swing, and not exactly super-experienced with Clojure.
09:40	Licenser	candera: you need to put the add-action listener behind the [] the stuff in [] are bindings
09:40	candera	Yeah, I tried that, too.
09:41	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/434482
09:41	Licenser	also you are using EMACS right?
09:41	candera	Yep.
09:42	Licenser	look in the inferior lisp buffer
09:42	Licenser	since swing is a own thread and the bindings of out and so are sadly different there :(
09:42	candera	Nothing there. I thought of that, too.
09:43	candera	Your code (which I had tried previously) gives me an error. Same error I was seeing: wrong number of args passed to add-action-listener
09:43	Licenser	hmm
09:43	candera	I'm on a recent 1.2 snapshot.
09:44	Licenser	nods
09:44	Licenser	fires up the reps
09:45	candera	BTW, I dig clj-swing so far. Very similar to what I had in mind to write.
09:46	Licenser	:)
09:46	Licenser	glad to hear that
09:46	candera	I have some broader design questions for you at some point, though. :)
09:47	arkh	is clj-swing a separate effort from what Luke VanderHart was working on?
09:47	candera	Also: specifying the :action on the button works. But I want the action to affect one of the other controls.
09:48	Twey	clojure-mode in emacs starts up SBCL in its inferior Lisp buffer ☹
09:53	Licenser	candera: that's cool :) I am always open to discuss clj-swing or take ideas to make it better
09:53	Licenser	oh sneaky
09:54	candera	?
09:54	Licenser	I opened the wrong repo :P
09:57	Licenser	candera: found the problem :)
09:57	candera	Excellent!
09:58	candera	Was it me or you? I'm guessing me. :)
09:58	Licenser	candera: well tecnically both :P
09:58	Licenser	bad design decision and non existing documentation on my side, not noticing that form was calling the content in a doto on your side
09:59	Licenser	mind if I keep your code in the examples file?
09:59	candera	Ah. I think I understand. It's that I was adding an action listner to the frame, yes?
10:00	Licenser	no it was adding the frame to the action lsitener call which is kind of wrong it was (add-action-listener frame b1 (...))
10:00	candera	Right. That's what I was trying to say.
10:00	candera	Makes sense.
10:00	candera	How are you going to solve the problem? Anaphora?
10:01	Licenser	I took the stuff out of doto in the form macro, it is ugly and was a design mistake / oversight that it was in there
10:01	Licenser	and I don't even know what anaphora means :P
10:02	candera	It just means capturing a variable during the macro expansion. E.g. after the bindings in the frame, you could bind the frame itself to the symbol $.
10:02	candera	Incanter does something similar in places.
10:02	Licenser	ah I use :name for that I think
10:02	Licenser	yap
10:02	candera	How do I refer to the frame in the body of the expansion?
10:02	Licenser	you can use :name in most components to that
10:03	Licenser	well if you need to (frame ... :name my-frame ... [... binding stuff ...] (.coolFunction my-frame))
10:03	candera	BTW: fine to use my example. It's a translation from "Swing: A beginner's guide"
10:03	candera	OK - the :name thing works for me.
10:03	Licenser	kk then you got push to the new version on clojars and github
10:04	candera	Read error: sentence does not parse. :)
10:04	Licenser	(dosync (push-to-github clj-swing-source) (push-to-clojars "clj-swing.jar"))
10:05	tridd3ll	Does anyone use clojure.contrib.sql against an existing database like Oracle or DB2? All of the examples I see use sql/create-table with just a keyword (like :fruit) for the table name. What I need to do is define tables that already exist (like PRODLIB.KEYS) to query/insert against.
10:05	candera	Meaning I should do that, or you are?
10:05	Licenser	candera: meaning I just did
10:06	candera	Excellent, thanks. FYI I would have seen that as a reasonable reward for you help. ;)
10:06	Licenser	heh
10:06	Licenser	candera: see helping people to work with clj-swing helps me to make it better, find problems I missed since I know how it works and don't expect stuff
10:06	MrHus	Licencer: The readme on clj-swing does not have the .md extention so formatting is wrong on the page. :P
10:07	candera	Licenser: Thanks again - more feedback as I keep working my way through the book (and ultimately the project I want to build)
10:07	Licenser	I want to make clj-swing as simple and intuitive as possible. I can work on the simple part but the intutive is hard since my intuition is clouded since I know the code :P
10:07	Licenser	MrHus: thank you I'll fix that
10:09	Licenser	candera: I already can promise that you'll reach a point where clj-swing won't be enough since, I haven't implemented (wrapped) all kinds of widgets by far
10:11	candera	Licenser: then I'll start breathing down your neck. :) Anyway, I've got to run off to go buy a house! Thanks again!
10:13	raek	where exactly does lein-swank live? leiningen? an own project?
10:16	Licenser	take care candera
10:19	raek	aha, lein-swank is now a part of swank-clojure...
10:27	raek	whohoo! got swank-clojure, slime and clj-1.2.0 working over UTF-8!
10:28	raek	my mind will finally be at peace
10:30	Raynes	raek: I'm awesome? :D
10:30	Raynes	<3
10:36	raek	now, lets see... how does irclj handle encoding?
10:37	raek	hrm, clojure.contrib.io/reader uses clojure.contrib.io/default-encoding, which is UTF-8
10:38	raek	note: in swedish channels, about 50% use latin-1 and 50% UTF-8
10:38	raek	this only works because irc clients are smart and try both decoding from UTF-8 and Latin-1
10:42	raek	hrm, maybe one could make a java CharsetProvider that provides a try-utf8-fallback-to-latin1 Charset
10:48	Raynes	Oi.
10:49	Raynes	I just noticed a bug in Irclj. Good thing I never used the :on-action handler in sexpbot, because it was broken. :\
10:58	raek	Raynes: how often do you push to clojars?
10:59	Raynes	raek: If I make a fix, or add something (like I'm doing as we speak), I push a new snapshot as soon as I know that sexpbot will run with the new snapshot.
10:59	raek	ah, cool
10:59	Raynes	I'm very liberal with my snapshots.
10:59	Raynes	;P
11:01	Raynes	raek: I'll ping you when I push.
11:05	Raynes	raek: Just pushed the new snapshot.
11:06	Raynes	That :on-action bug would have been nasty, had anyone actually used it.
11:06	Raynes	sexpbot doesn't do anything special for actions, so I never noticed it.
11:07	Raynes	My test/example bot needs to be more through so that I can catch stuff like that.
11:10	Raynes	raek: Sorry for Irclj's shoddy documentation. Most of that thing was thrown together in a day and a half, and I've been busy with other stuff lately, so the documentation hasn't really improved.
11:12	raek	well, the example has shown me what I have needed so far... :)
11:14	raek	Downloading: irclj/irclj/0.3.0-SNAPSHOT/irclj-0.3.0-20100502.112537-6.jar from clojars
11:14	Raynes	raek: Yeah, the example bot isn't too bad. There isn't much to Irclj, so the general idea is easy to get across. It's what Irclj is 'specifically' capable of that isn't entirely clear.
11:14	raek	does it take some time before the new one gets through?
11:15	Raynes	Hm?
11:15	raek	I just cleared all my irclj jar files from the project and .m2
11:15	raek	and ran lein deps
11:15	jcromartie	is 1.2 considered "beta" at this point or what?
11:15	raek	looks like it downloaded a version from 2010-05-02
11:16	Raynes	Oh.
11:16	Raynes	Hrm.
11:16	Raynes	I'll try that again. Give me a sec.
11:17	Raynes	[INFO] Uploading project information for irclj 0.3.0-20100502.112537-7
11:18	Raynes	raek: Apparently, it's right. I guess maven's calendar is broke?
11:18	Raynes	:\
11:18	raek	hah, ok
11:18	raek	another question: how are private messages to the bot handled?
11:19	raek	is the :channel value instead the nick or something?
11:19	Raynes	They're considered normal messages, and trigger the :on-message handler.
11:19	Raynes	The :channel value is the nick instead.
11:19	raek	nice, so I can always reply to "channel"
11:19	Raynes	Yep.
11:19	Raynes	:)
11:20	Raynes	raek: I'm taking off for a while. If you have any more questions, ping me or shoot me a message on github.
11:22	raek	all right.
11:23	raek	now, where's my cond-re macro?
11:23	raek	this could make my bot's command parsing much simpler: http://gist.github.com/387097
11:26	dnolen_	raek: couldn't you do that with condp and re-matches?
11:27	jcromartie	yeah, looks like condp already fits the bill
11:27	jcromartie	although I have to say condp is one of the trickiest things to grasp in Clojure
11:29	dnolen_	jcromartie: really? so many others things on my list that are harder to grasp :D tho it is diminishing over time ...
11:29	jcromartie	heh
11:29	jcromartie	I just had to use it to really get it
11:29	raek	I wanted a more compact way of including the destruturing
11:30	raek	it takes triples of [re bindings body]
11:30	raek	bindings are bound to the groups of the match
11:30	dnolen_	raek: i see. cool. so you have your solution :)
11:34	cgrand	raek: (defn parse-flag [s] (rest (re-matches #"--([^=]+)(?:=(.*))?" "--abc")))
11:36	cgrand	err I mean (defn parse-flag [s] (rest (re-matches #"--([^=]+)(?:=(.*))?" s))) ;-)
11:37	dnolen_	can somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong here? I'm trying to create a type-hinted method on defrecord, http://gist.github.com/434649
11:38	Chousuke	dnolen_: bar is a method, not a function
11:38	Chousuke	dnolen_: maybe you meant to define a protocol instead?
11:39	dnolen_	Chousuke: wow, so only protocols generate fns?
11:39	Chousuke	dnolen_: yes.
11:39	Chousuke	definterface generates an interface
11:39	dnolen_	Chousuke: that was the gap in my understanding abou the relation between interfaces and protocols.
11:39	Chousuke	best not think of them as at all related
11:40	Chousuke	a protocol is backed by an interface, but that's just the implementation
11:50	Licenser	coookies!
11:51	Raynes	cakes!
11:52	cemerick	lpetit: should ccw work OK in helios RCs?
11:55	lpetit	cemerick: not tested for a while, but I guess so
11:56	lpetit	cemerick: did I just loose ? :)
11:56	cemerick	lpetit: not at all, we'll see how it goes.
11:57	lpetit	cemerick: ok then. Honestly I'm pretty confident
11:58	cemerick	yeah, it's supposed to be entirely compatible with whatever the current rev is, just thought I'd check
11:58	Licenser	no Raynes cooooookies!
11:59	Licenser	I want to build something geniouse and crazy
11:59	lpetit	cemerick: that's a good test I haven't done in a while. Looking forward to your feedback
12:01	cemerick	lpetit: am I right in thinking that ccw doesn't have remote repl capability?
12:01	lpetit	cemerick: you're right, it's on my todo list
12:02	cemerick	lpetit: if possible, I'd recommend just reusing the existing impls
12:02	lpetit	cemerick: as you guessed (was it you ? I think so) in one of your blog posts, we are using the java console input/output facilities provided by Eclipse
12:02	cemerick	enclojure's repl library has been very solid for us. I don't have any experience with swank, though.
12:02	cemerick	yeah, I figured
12:03	cemerick	IMO, all repls should be run over a socket
12:03	cemerick	I've always had issues with inferior repls
12:04	cemerick	or, I should say, did the last time I used them :-)
12:06	lpetit	cemerick: sure, I totally agree. One path for everything. Even if the REPL is from the same JVM, pass through a socket for communicating between the server part and the GUI partr
12:06	cemerick	yup
12:09	lpetit	cemerick: but from what I've seen, I will not take a lot of things from enclojure repl, when I plan to do so. Because the GUI part is in swing, and will resemble nothing under Eclipse
12:10	cemerick	lpetit: the GUI is irrelevant -- the tricky part is the repl client/server library, which is a separate small component :-)
12:10	cemerick	or, not irrelevant, but easy to recreate ;-)
12:11	lpetit	cemerick: indeed, but for ccw, I just use the "trick" (currently) of starting the application to test with clojure.contrib.repl_ln :-)
12:12	lpetit	cemerick: I also have a "server" backdoor, of course, to be able to send commands to the launched JVM
12:12	lpetit	cemerick: carefully written in clojure 1.0 style, so that it works for any clojure a user may want to use
12:18	Licenser	cookies
12:21	rrc7cz-hm	is there some trick for working on a gen-class and not having to restart swank? working within already defined methods is fine of course, but when you're adding methods I don't see another way
12:21	arohner	it would be really nice if you could apply a map to (fn foo [ & { a :a b :b}])
12:21	arohner	(apply foo {:a 1 :b 2})
12:30	StartsWithK	in clojure dist, test/clojure/test_clojure/genclass/examples.clj there is ExampleAnnotationClass using new reader syntax to attach metadata to class
12:31	StartsWithK	how can that be used lets say to add: @Perm("can-read") @Perm("can-write")
12:35	StartsWithK	also, are there any examples on how to use enums and other annotations inside the annotation value part
12:43	chouser	weird. I've got what appears to be a deadlock involving agent await that only shows up after upgrading clojure.
12:43	chouser	I don't really believe that's it, but that's how it looks at the moment.
13:20	dnolen_	hmm does ^:static work for def as well?
13:25	duncanm	dum de dum
13:31	Bootvis	what's the difference between defn- and defn?
13:31	Raynes	Bootvis: defn- makes the definition private.
13:31	Bootvis	thanks
13:45	chouser	rhickey: we using binding to replace various core functions with our own for unit tests
13:45	chouser	as long as core functions have been vars this has worked just fine. direct linking started to change this, but we had a workaround. statics are killing.
13:46	rhickey	chouser: with your hack for direct linked things?
13:46	chouser	we'll have to find another way to solve our problem before we can use the prim branch
13:46	rhickey	what's an example of something you replace and why?
13:47	chouser	what is easy. I'll work on why for you.
13:48	chouser	what: pmap, send-off, await
13:48	technomancy	we rebind test-var so we can mark some tests as integration tests in their metadata
13:48	technomancy	that way we can skip the tests that require network access when doing our regular test runs and run them with less frequency.
13:49	technomancy	very nice capability to have.
13:49	technomancy	might be worth formalizing in clojure.test in the future though.
13:50	chouser	oh, I bet all these are to support mocking of our own network functions.
13:50	rhickey	if your hack was based on modifying the metadata before compiling a use, you can just lop of :static true
13:51	rhickey	lop off
13:51	chouser	the test calls real code that may call network functions inside pmap or send-off
13:52	technomancy	chouser: we have a with-alter-var-root macro for that. it's super-ick, but it works across threads.
13:52	chouser	we want to mock out those network functions with binding, but that fails if the real code does a real send-off, so we have to mock that out as well.
13:52	technomancy	obviously verboten for anything but tests
13:52	chouser	technomancy: hm, that might be better
13:53	chouser	ok, lopping off :static works fine for now.
13:53	chouser	all tests pass. prim is good enough for us. :-)
13:53	rhickey	yay
13:53	chouser	but altering the var root would be much better.
13:54	rhickey	so, this still begs the question of opt-in/out and knobs
13:54	chouser	that were never really answered with direct linking
13:55	rhickey	a big problem is people thinking they should be able to change the decision of other people re: direct links
13:59	cemerick	easily being able to route around "private" vars when necessary seems like a corollary, but carrying over that principle doesn't sound possible
14:00	rhickey	cemerick: @#'
14:01	cemerick	yes, I know about that
14:01	rhickey	cemerick: so, I don't understand re: private vars
14:01	cemerick	I'm just saying that both statics and visibility are examples of authors making decisions that users might want to override
14:02	rhickey	#'
14:03	timcharper	will a future die if it's running, but there are no references to retrieve it's result ?
14:03	timcharper	IE: does the running thread keep it from being garbage collected ?
14:03	timcharper
14:04	chouser	timcharper: yes, the running thread will keep going
14:05	chouser	,(let [x (future (Thread/sleep 2000) (println "stayin' alive"))] 0)
14:05	clojurebot	0
14:05	chouser	heh. well, it works at a real repl.
14:06	chouser	I imagine "sayin' alive" is printed on some clojurebot console somewhere.
14:09	leif-p	Hi. All the examples in clojure.walk have to do with transformation. Does anyone have any example code where they walk through a form collecting values? I can do it by mutating an atom, but I hope there is a more functional, clojure-y way.
14:19	aria42	Is there a special variable that's set when a form is being evaluated as part of compilation?
14:40	yacin	can you do the multiple possible argument destructuring that you can do in defns in defmethods?
14:40	yacin	like
14:40	yacin	(defn mymax ([x] x) ([x y] ...))?
14:41	yacin	i guess having different arglists in defmethod is what i want
14:41	yacin	or should i just make my dispatch function take this into account?
14:44	chouser	your dispatch function will have to handle different arity counts either way
14:45	yacin	yeah, i just realized that
14:46	jasonamster	ny good tutorials or walkthroughs for a rubyist to learn clojure? Not just syntax but doing projects and creating apps
14:46	technomancy	clojurebot: peepcode?
14:46	clojurebot	peepcode is a commercial screencast series; see the Clojure one at http://peepcode.com/products/functional-programming-with-clojure by technomancy
14:47	jasonamster	technomancy: isn't peepcode out of date?
14:47	technomancy	jasonamster: it doesn't cover the latest features of clojure, but the stuff it covers is still relevant.
14:47	technomancy	I wrote a blog post that covers the few things that are a bit out of date: http://technomancy.us/136
14:48	jasonamster	technomancy: okay great... I actually think I purchased that peepcode a while back anyway... Now if I can only find it.
14:48	technomancy	heh; cool
14:49	technomancy	clojure is really good about not breaking backwards compatibility within the language itself (modulo external libraries)
14:51	jasonamster	just found it... yep i remember watching this... I must have been drunk, b/c it's a blurry memory
14:54	technomancy	heh
15:25	timcharper	chouser, heheh. Thanks.
15:25	chouser	:-)
15:26	timcharper	the bot is still probably singing "oh, oh, oh, oh, sayin' alive"
15:26	chouser	I know I am.
15:26	timcharper	infecting song, isn't it?
15:26	timcharper	lol
15:27	timcharper	in seriousness though... is there anyway to hook into the garbage collector with clojure? Or is this naughty? I'd like to have a thread that stops when an object is freed.
15:27	chouser	timcharper: fill-queue does that, I think, but it's messy, fragile, etc.
15:27	technomancy	clojurebot: 𝅘𝅥𝅮 "This was a triumph. I'm making a note here: huge success." 𝅘𝅥𝅯
15:27	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
15:27	chouser	technomancy: :-)
15:28	chouser	for the good of all of us, except the ones that are dead.
15:30	chouser	timcharper: see 'alive?' and (throw ... "abandoned")
15:30	timcharper	looking...
15:30	timcharper	yeah
15:32	timcharper	so, you create an object that is not referenced by the fill fn (but is by the drain fn)
15:32	timcharper	so if the drain fn gets gc'd, then so does the fill fn ?
15:33	timcharper	hmmm... let me see if I get this actually...
15:34	chouser	close. if the drain instance is gc'ed, next time fill loops it'll notice and kill the thread so the thread no longer keeps refs to the blocking queue, etc.
15:34	timcharper	ah... the drain fn is the lazy sequence :)
15:34	timcharper	that is pretty neat
15:34	timcharper	why is that fragile ?
15:34	timcharper	(I want to create a process that subscribes to a queue and pulls off mongodb records from it, running mass-insert on it everytime)
15:35	chouser	it's a lot of consequence hanging on GC's specific behavior
15:35	chouser	you might consider more specifically-scoped behavior, something closer to with-open
15:35	timcharper	I considered that first
15:35	chouser	oh, good.
15:35	chouser	that's the correct order. :-)
15:35	timcharper	but I've already got two with-open-ish statements on this piece of code
15:36	timcharper	and adding another... it just nests deeper and deeper
15:36	timcharper	I would like to flatten them
15:36	timcharper	(maybe I should write a macro for it...)
15:36	timcharper	to flatten the nesting
15:36	chouser	well, if the nesting points are correct, I'd -- yeah, combine them somehow rather than going to some other mechanism
15:37	timcharper	it's a with-open to read a csv, with-open to write a csv, and then a with-mongo-db-mass-inserter-thingy
15:37	chouser	the GC-based behavior probably should only be considered if you can't know by any other mechanism when it should be cleaned up
15:37	timcharper	which in the case of fill-queue... would suck to have to remember to close it
15:37	timcharper	(which is why GC exists)
15:37	chouser	timcharper: maybe a protocol so you can (with-my-open [reader ... writer ... mongo ...] ...)
15:38	chouser	and extend the protocol to all of them. only one level of nesting then, but without losing any specificity.
15:38	timcharper	what about a thread-through approach for nested macros ?
15:39	chouser	sure, if that works
15:39	timcharper	kinda like thread through... but obviously without the threading
15:39	timcharper	(as in threading a value through it)
15:39	timcharper	heh, ok. Thank you counselor chouser :)
15:39	chouser	:-)
15:52	arkh	does a repl (await) an agent (send-off) ? When I send-off an agent at the repl with an infinite loop, the repl doesn't return with another prompt
15:53	arkh	e.g. (send-off (agent nil) #(do (prn "hi") (Thread/sleep 1000) (recur))
15:54	chouser	you're just missing a close paren
15:54	chouser	but even with that fixed, the agent will immediately fail because the action fn must take at least one argument
15:55	arkh	gee I do good work ... thank you though
15:57	arkh	(send-off (agent nil) (fn [_] (do (prn "hi") (Thread/sleep 1000) (recur nil))))
15:57	chouser	np
15:57	chouser	there you go. :-)
15:57	arkh	chouser: thanks! ; )
16:49	aria42	Is anyone using the maven plugin (1.3.2) and having trouble getting it to respect the compile and copy configuration elements?
17:14	duncanm	kinda quiet today....
17:16	dnolen_	duncanm: the pre 1.2 hush ...
17:19	serp_	sup
17:21	dnolen_	rhickey: so what was the rationale behind putting the return arg type hint where it is now? is that because ^:static true would look weird? wouldn't it be better to just have fns that are tagged in the normal way with ^long or ^double to have implicit static?
17:22	dnolen_	erg I mean ^:static hint foo
17:22	dnolen_	^:static ^hint foo
17:34	serp_	is it ever a problem in practice that transactions become too big and performance dies because the transaction becomes interupted by external modifications and keeps restarting?
17:39	dnolen_	serp_: that's a possibility, but as long as you give your design some thought you can make that very unlikely. the trick in clojure it seems is to pick the right level of granularity.
17:40	dnolen_	serp_: if you need to serialize access use an atom, if you to coordinate two or more things use refs. That's what I've culled anyway. People who know better than I can probably say more.
17:43	hiredman	just like locks you can also change granularity, a map in a ref vs. each value in a map being a ref
17:44	hiredman	the difference is operations on refs compose
17:50	serp_	I have to read more stuff to understand your answers, but thanks :)
17:55	rhickey	dnolen_: if you have multiple arities they might have different returns
17:57	arohner	if you have a fn with signature [ & {a :a b :b}], and you want to apply a map, is there a faster/cleaner way than (apply foo (interleave (keys map) (vals map)))?
17:57	dnolen_	rhickey: oh yeah. thx.
17:59	dnolen_	serp_: transactions seem scary/involved but it's actually pretty easy to set some up, use a couple Thread/sleep and you can get a intuitive sense of what kinds of things can happen.
18:07	rmarianski	arohner: maybe you can (flatten (seq map))
18:07	rmarianski	dunno if that's cleaner though
18:07	arohner	rmarianski: using flatten makes a little more sense to me. thanks
18:08	rmarianski	sure, np
18:20	mebaran151	is it possible to completely AOT compile a Clojure app that uses defprotocol and friends?
18:21	mebaran151	I was wondering if I AOT'ed a Clojure 1.2 app if I couldn't avoid nasty probles on android (running just the final jar once through dx)
18:44	arohner	mebaran151: I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, you can AOT defprotocol
18:45	arohner	mebaran151: I don't know if that's solves all the issues of running on andriod.
18:46	lancepantz	i think it would completely break servlets if you couldn't
18:54	hamza	guys, I have symbol for a function and I need to call that particular function something like the following (let [s 'println] (s "Hello...")) but it does not work..
18:55	Twey	hamza: Don't call a symbol, just call the function
18:56	Twey	(let [s println] (s "Hello"))
18:56	dakrone	,(let [s (var println)] (s "hello"))
18:56	clojurebot	hello
18:56	Twey	,(let [f (+ % 1)] (f 3))
18:56	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: % in this context
18:56	Twey	,(let [f #(+ % 1)] (f 3))
18:56	clojurebot	4
18:56	Twey	dakrone: What's the ‘var’ for?
18:57	Twey	,(let [s println] (s "Hello"))
18:57	clojurebot	Hello
18:57	dakrone	that works too, don't even need the var
18:57	Chousuke	hamza: you can resolve a symbol to a var by using resolve
18:58	hamza	but in my case symbols are user defined, i pass them around as symbols then i need to call them.
18:58	hamza	,(doc var)
18:58	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:58	Twey	Haha
18:58	Chousuke	var is not for runtime stuf
18:58	Chousuke	f
18:58	Twey	http://clojure.org/special_forms#var
18:58	Chousuke	,((resolve 'println) "foo")
18:58	clojurebot	foo
18:58	hamza	,(let [s 'println] ((resolve s) "Hello..."))
18:58	clojurebot	Hello...
18:58	Twey	Ah, ‘resolve’, that's the one
18:59	Twey	,(let [f 3] (eval 'f))
18:59	clojurebot	DENIED
18:59	hamza	cool thanks..
18:59	Chousuke	resolve can return nil though, so beware
18:59	Lajla	,(let [gay 3] (let [twey gay] (+ twey gay)))
18:59	clojurebot	6
18:59	Twey	Denied?! :-D
18:59	Chousuke	it'll also return a Class instance for class names.
18:59	Twey	Hm, not allowed eh.
18:59	Chousuke	Twey: eval is not allowed
19:00	Twey	It's an error anyway. Guess eval doesn't work like that.
19:00	Lajla	Chousuke, kerro twey:lle että mun suomenkieli on parempi kuin sen.
19:00	timcharper	chouser: for fun and giggles, here's a macro that encapsulates the WeakReference pattern used by fill-queue
19:00	Twey	>.>
19:00	Lajla	kerro että olen paras.
19:00	hamza	Chousuke: function will be defined before calling it, is it safe to assume it wont return nil in this case?
19:00	Chousuke	Lajla: You're being weird :P
19:00	Lajla	Chousuke, I guess, it's a curse.
19:00	Twey	How long have you known Lajla? :þ
19:00	timcharper	http://gist.github.com/435165
19:01	Lajla	Twey, do not remind it.
19:01	Lajla	You're a cruel man.
19:01	Lajla	Reminding people that I exist.
19:01	Twey	'tis true
19:01	Lajla	You should hate yourself, I happen to have some of that spare for you.
19:01	Twey	Sometimes I sit here and just look at you, so you can't escape.
19:01	Lajla	Sometimes I wank and think about my sister.
19:01	Twey	I knew that already.
19:01	Lajla	I say it a lot.
19:02	Lajla	More reason to hate myself.
19:02	Lajla	And more reason for you to do so too, your thoughts have been beviled with incest.
19:02	Chousuke	seriously now, keep that outside this channel, please.
19:03	timcharper	chouser: maybe you don't want to wrap it because it can be abused
19:03	timcharper	:)
19:05	timcharper	Lajla: not funny
19:05	timcharper	"Yields an object and a fn to tell if if the object has been GC'd yet
19:05	timcharper
19:05	timcharper	The following will quit when the return value is no longer referenced and GC is run
19:05	timcharper
19:05	timcharper	(with-monitor [monitor alive?]
19:06	timcharper	(let [alive-fn (fn [] (loop []
19:06	timcharper	(println \"alive...\")
19:06	timcharper	(java.lang.Thread/sleep 1000)
19:06	timcharper	(when (alive?) (recur))))]
19:06	timcharper	(future (alive-fn))
19:06	timcharper	monitor))"
19:06	timcharper	[[tracer-binding alive?-fn-binding] & body]
19:06	timcharper	`(let [~tracer-binding (Object.)
19:06	timcharper	weak-ref# (java.lang.ref.WeakReference. ~tracer-binding)
19:06	timcharper	~alive?-fn-binding (fn [] (not (nil? (.get weak-ref#))))]
19:06	timcharper	~@body))
19:06	timcharper	ummm... wow. Go ERC random yank.
19:10	RosaSchaf	hi, I was searching for something and came across neman.cells in the list of libraries on clojure.org. I have actually no idea but it seems to be interesting. However, the latest change was made over an year ago and I wonder if the idea is still up to date and if it is, if there is another, more active implementation or if neman.cells will work fine? (I actually just want to know if it is worth to have a closer look at it)
20:05	quotemstr	Why does Clojure put the docstring before the arguments?
20:06	Twey	Because the bodies of a function are arglist/expression pairs?
20:06	quotemstr	Bod... ies?
20:07	Twey	You can overload a function on number of arguments
20:07	quotemstr	In the same defn?
20:07	Twey	(defn foo [x y] (foo) [x y z] (bar))
20:07	Twey	Yes
20:07	quotemstr	Ah.
20:09	technomancy	quotemstr: the only thing that helps there is font-lock; Emacs will highlight it with comment-face if it's in the right place.
20:12	quotemstr	So where in the Emacs implementation in Clojure? Every Lisp dialect seems to get its own Emacs. :-)
20:13	Chousuke	Twey: not quite like that though.
20:14	technomancy	quotemstr: actually once Emacs gets threads and Clojure gets a little closer to self-hosting, Emacs may become a feasible compilation target.
20:14	Chousuke	if you want to overload by arity, you need more parens :)
20:14	Twey	Really? Damn.
20:14	Chousuke	eg. (defn foo ([a] a) ([a b] b))
20:14	Twey	Thanks. I'm new. ☺
20:24	Lajla	Twey, if I prove that my language is better than clojure and make a better compiler, will you then join the dark side?
20:25	zakwilson	How does one prove that a language is "better"?
20:37	hamza	are there any examples that show how can i use protocols to override functions such as conj to work on custom data structures?
20:38	hamza	I am looking over protocols and types but no examples
20:38	technomancy	hamza: conj hasn't been ported to use protocols yet
20:39	hamza	technomancy: thanks, is there alist somewhere that shows which functions are ported?
20:45	technomancy	I don't know of such a list.
21:28	Lajla	zakwilson, well, by me saying it is, and then using the argument to authority.
21:29	tomoj	well, you can have a deftype implement IPersistentCollection for custom conj behavior, right?
21:31	Lajla	tomoj, are you addressing me?
21:32	tomoj	nope
21:32	Lajla	tomoj, why not?
21:32	Lajla	Don't youy like to put me in the centre of attention?
21:36	quotemstr	Do {}-structures default to ordered or unordered maps?
21:36	quotemstr	Eww -- comma are just ignored?
21:36	quotemstr	commas, even.
21:36	quotemstr	What about in backquote?
21:36	Lajla	quotemstr, commata, and yes.
21:36	Lajla	You use ~
21:37	quotemstr	Ah.
21:37	Lajla	`(a ~b c)
21:37	Lajla	Same key too
21:37	Lajla	On most keyboards
21:37	quotemstr	I can live with that.
21:37	Lajla	quotemstr, if you can, then so can I.
21:38	Lajla	If you believe, then so do I.
21:38	Lajla	quotemstr, also, they call the syntax-quote.
21:38	Lajla	We call it the unquote.
21:38	Lajla	Pluriformity eh?
21:38	Lajla	And we all respect each other
21:38	Lajla	And don't go argue about it.
21:38	Lajla	We realize we all mean the same thing, but say it differently.
21:38	Lajla	We don't blow ourselves up because of it.
21:38	Lajla	We're all friends.
21:39	quotemstr	I get the feeling there have been massive flamewars on this very topic.
21:39	Lajla	,(let [a 3 b 4] `(~(+ a b) c))
21:39	clojurebot	(7 sandbox/c)
21:39	Lajla	quotemstr, I haven't seen them.
21:40	Lajla	Lisp is unlike the gaza strip.
21:40	Lajla	here we realize, Scheme, CL or Clojure, we all came from the same roots.
21:40	Lajla	We believe the same things in essense, minor differences.
21:40	Lajla	We should be brethren, not war.
21:40	Lajla	We're all entitled to the promised land.
21:41	quotemstr	My ancestors called it quasiquote and I'll DIE and MARTYR MYSELF before you call it syntax-quote you filthy heathen!
21:41	quotemstr	Err, I mean, right.
21:41	Lajla	quotemstr, that's another thing.
21:41	Lajla	quasiquote is `
21:41	Lajla	quote is '
21:42	Lajla	and unquote is , in Scheme, in CL it's called backquote, Cloj has ~, and calls it syntax-quote.
21:42	Lajla	quotemstr, be open to the warmth we offer you.
21:42	raek	no, it is ` which is called syntax-quote
21:42	raek	~ is simply called unquote
21:42	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
21:42	raek	and ~@ unquote-splicing
21:43	Lajla	Whether you cover up your women and beat them to death for being raped, whether you sell indulgences in the name of God to enrich yourself, whether you nuke homeless people who got in a land before you you think is your promised land, we all have our failures, doesn't mean we can't get be friends.
21:43	Lajla	raek, I respect your vision
21:43	Lajla	after all, doesn't matter how we call it, it's the same.
21:45	raek	I just wanted to avoid confusion about clojure's names, not pick on other lisps' conventions...
21:45	Lajla	raek, I respect that.
21:45	raek	anyway, http://clojure.org/reader says "Syntax-quote (`, note, the "backquote" character), Unquote (~) and Unquote-splicing (~@)"
21:46	raek	that was what I wanted to relay
21:46	Lajla	To inform is the key to peaceful co-existence between different creeds.
21:46	Lajla	Welcome that which is different, do not be afraid of it.
21:50	lancepantz	Lajla: to a point
21:50	lancepantz	"all that is necessary for the triumph of evils is that the good men do nothing"
21:51	lancepantz	not that i'm saying we should take out the scheme fans
21:54	quotemstr	So def always affects the root binding, where set! affects either the root or the current dynamic binding?
21:54	raek	set! can only affect a thread-local (i.e. dynamic) binding
21:55	quotemstr	So set! on an unbound variable is an error?
21:55	raek	yes
21:55	quotemstr	Hrm.
21:55	Lajla	Not sure if this is the idea of clojure, but in Scheme, the idea is that set! changes a memory address.
21:55	Lajla	And define actually binds a variable.
21:56	Lajla	Ehh, hanges the contents of a memory address.
21:56	raek	clojure is a bit different from scheme
21:56	Lajla	lancepantz, it has a reason though, good leaders are reluctant to lead.
21:57	raek	only root bindings can change
21:57	quotemstr	raek: Then what does set! do?
21:57	raek	locals introduced by let and function parameters are actually not variables at all, but local names for immutable values
21:58	Lajla	raek, that's the same thing in Scheme though.
21:58	raek	you can mutate vars if you have a thread-local binding for it
21:58	Lajla	set! does not mutate.
21:58	Lajla	It binds a symbol to another value.
21:58	raek	it mutates the var object
21:59	raek	clojure variables are objects
21:59	raek	living in a namespace
21:59	Lajla	If that was so, then let would mutate it too.
21:59	Lajla	It changes the environment in a way.
21:59	raek	let makes a new environment
22:00	raek	(if one uses scheme terminology)
22:00	Lajla	That is true
22:00	Lajla	set! changes it, but it doesn't mutate any data per se.
22:00	raek	yes
22:01	raek	anyway, in order to be able to change a variable with set!, it must first have a thread-local value
22:01	Lajla	As in (define x #(1 2 3)) (define y x) (set! x #(2 3 4)) y will then still have #(1 2 3)
22:01	raek	this is done by (binding)
22:01	raek	a warning: in clojure, def should normally only be used at the top level
22:02	raek	it does not add a new binding in the "closest" frame, but in the global environment
22:02	raek	(the current namespace)
22:02	JonSmith	right
22:02	JonSmith	def is global
22:03	raek	these things doesn't work much like in scheme
22:03	quotemstr	Can Clojure's reader eval by itself like CL's can?
22:03	JonSmith	raek: is more like common lisp in that way
22:05	raek	IIRC, there is a #= reader macro that evaluates
22:06	raek	(def x 1) (set! x 2) => "Can't change/establish root binding of: x with set"
22:06	JonSmith	you have to do binding first
22:06	raek	(def x 1) (binding [x 2] (set! x 3) x) => 3
22:06	JonSmith	set is thread local
22:07	raek	yes, I just thought I'd show quotemstr an example
22:07	quotemstr	Thanks.
22:07	JonSmith	oh ok
22:07	JonSmith	i think i came in partway through, my bad
22:07	quotemstr	Can refs point to refs?
22:08	raek	set! can be used when interfacing with some java libraries
22:08	raek	yes, refs can point to anything and nesting is allowed
22:08	raek	you can make cycles this way too
22:08	raek	just make sure not to try to print the ref
22:09	raek	(if you have cycles)
22:09	raek	also, in the example with binding, after binding has been evaluated, x has the value 1
22:10	raek	and all other threads saw the value 1 during all the time
22:11	quotemstr	Ah, I like the shortcut literal syntax.
22:11	quotemstr	shortcut lambda syntax, that is.
22:19	quotemstr	Hrm, I'd prefer map to do the Python-esque thing and return an iterator object instead of being automagically lazy.
22:27	tomoj	huh?
22:28	tomoj	iterators aren't lazy?
22:28	quotemstr	Sure they are.
22:29	quotemstr	But in Python, printing an iterator doesn't automatically try to iterate through all items in the sequence.
22:29	quotemstr	iter((1,2,3)) => <tupleiterator object at 0x10048c7d0>
22:32	KirinDave	quotemstr: “automagically lazy?”
22:32	quotemstr	KirinDave: What I mean is that map seems to return a magic object instead of the mapped sequence.
22:33	quotemstr	Binding this magic object to a var doesn't evaluate the sequence, but then trying to get at the value of the var evaluates the sequence.
22:33	quotemstr	Trying to print this magic object similarly evaluates the sequence.
22:33	KirinDave	quotemstr: "Getting" doesn't actually.
22:33	KirinDave	quotemstr: You're playing on the repl?
22:33	quotemstr	KirinDave: No, just looking at some documentation for now. :-)
22:34	KirinDave	quotemstr: It doesn't return any sort of magical object, it returns a lazy seq. Which is like a cons cell but the cdr is delayed computation that it knows to force.
22:34	quotemstr	Is it possible to print the delayed sequence object itself without resolving the sequence?
22:35	KirinDave	There are ways to make a unique identifier, but otherwise the print function forces it.
22:36	quotemstr	What does a unique identifier have to do with it? Let's consider lists.
22:36	quotemstr	You have regular lists and lazy lists, right?
22:36	KirinDave	quotemstr: yes.
22:36	quotemstr	A var can be set to either kind of list.
22:36	KirinDave	Yes.
22:36	quotemstr	(Among other data types.)
22:37	tomoj	so is the quibble just about the printed representation of a lazy seq?
22:37	quotemstr	KirinDave: But list and printing functions on that var will do the same thing regardless of whether it's a lazy or real list, right?
22:37	KirinDave	quotemstr: What it does depends entirely upon the object.
22:38	quotemstr	Basically, I'm just used to the model of a lazy-list and a list being two very different data types, with an explicit call being required to transform the lazy list to a real list.
22:38	KirinDave	quotemstr: Well then, welcome to the future.
22:38	KirinDave	Seq is a super-abstraction over all these types.
22:38	quotemstr	I'm not sure it's the future. :-)
22:38	quotemstr	Is it possible to distinguish between a variable bound to a list and a variable bound to a lazy-list?
22:38	KirinDave	Yes.
22:39	quotemstr	Ah, okay. Thanks.
22:39	KirinDave	quotemstr: I suggest you fire up the repl and answer these questions yourself.
22:39	quotemstr	When it finishes building, I will. :-P
22:39	KirinDave	Building?
22:41	quotemstr	The macport had a bunch of dependencies. It's done now.
22:42	tomoj	there's a macport for clojure?
22:42	tomoj	:(
22:42	quotemstr	tomoj: Why not?
22:42	KirinDave	Wow, macports.
22:42	KirinDave	Haven't heard that name in awhile.
22:42	tomoj	why?
22:42	clojurebot	why not?
22:42	KirinDave	why ask why?
22:42	tomoj	it looks like it's 1.0.0 anyway?
22:42	KirinDave	Dang come on clojurebot work with me here.
22:42	quotemstr	tomoj: It provides a unified way of managing software installation. The less I stick in /usr/local/stow, the easier it is to manage.
22:42	quotemstr	tomoj: 1.1
22:42	tomoj	ah, not so bad
22:43	KirinDave	quotemstr: So why does this bother you?
22:43	tomoj	oh, the wrappers it installs look kinda useful
22:43	tomoj	quotemstr: but, you don't need to stick anything in /usr/local for a standard clojure install
22:43	tomoj	it's all project-local
22:44	quotemstr	KirinDave: I'd worry about evaluating happening when it wasn't expected.
22:44	tomoj	evaluation will happen exactly when it needs to
22:44	KirinDave	In general that's not an issue.
22:45	tomoj	bets on how long it will take quotemstr to realize that lazy seqs are beautiful? :)
22:45	quotemstr	tomoj: Sure, but then I need to add crap to $PATH and stick the clojure directory somewhere. I just wanted a repl, dammit. :)
22:45	tomoj	no, you don't need to add anything to $PATH or stick any clojure directory anywhere
22:45	tomoj	but yeah, you'd have to set up a project
22:45	tomoj	and those wrappers do look useful
22:46	tomoj	too bad they're tied down to a system-wide version of clojure
22:46	tomoj	would be cool for a repl/clj command to look in ~/.m2 and allow you to pick the clojure version
22:47	tomoj	yep, they should
22:48	quotemstr	Hrm. Nifty.
22:48	tomoj	quotemstr: can you map over both an iterator and a list (or whatever the equivalent is in python)?
22:49	tomoj	I mean, mapping over an iterator would force evaluation, right?
22:49	tomoj	er, no, I guess not
22:49	tomoj	just get another iterator back, I bet?
22:50	quotemstr	no, map always evaluates immediately. There's a separate function to construct an iterator from an iterator and a mapping function.
22:50	quotemstr	Then again, lazy sequences were bolted onto Python, so I'm not sure that approach is better.
22:50	tomoj	that doesn't seem.. inconvenient to you?
22:50	tomoj	heh, yeah
22:50	quotemstr	It seems less surprising, but that's because I'm used to Python and not Clojure. :)
22:51	tomoj	the seq abstraction is pretty fundamental here
22:51	KirinDave	quotemstr: Hopefully we can break you of that love.
22:51	quotemstr	Well, it's nice to be able to talk about a Lisp without being asked whether I can find the way back to my nursing home on my own.
22:51	quotemstr	:-)
22:52	tomoj	I mean, we can do things like this:
22:52	tomoj	,(->> (map #(* % %) (range 10)) (filter even?))
22:52	clojurebot	(0 4 16 36 64)
22:52	quotemstr	On the other hand, I have a horrible temptation to restructure my project's lisp to resemble Clojure instead of CL. :-)
22:53	KirinDave	tomoj: Funny thing happened in here the other day. Someone asked "What is the equivalent of ruby's detect?"
22:53	tomoj	if the interfaces for lazy seqs and concrete sequential data structures were different, it seems like beautiful stuff like that would be uglier
22:53	KirinDave	tomoj: Which is a funny question. Suggests to me people have a hard time with laziness.
22:53	tomoj	(by "interface" I don't mean java interface, but the functions you can apply to these things..)
22:53	clojurebot	☕
22:54	KirinDave	clojurebot: it is a lie
22:54	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
22:54	tomoj	KirinDave: I don't understand?
22:54	KirinDave	tomoj: Well how do you find the first item in a list that (conforms? x) returns true to?
22:55	tomoj	clojure.contrib.seq-utils/find-first ?
22:55	tomoj	(first (filter ....)) I guess is what you're getting at?
22:56	KirinDave	tomoj: Yeah.
22:56	tomoj	so the rubyist thinks the whole seq would have to be processed by filter, I guess
22:57	KirinDave	Well I don't think he thought that directly.
22:57	KirinDave	It's more like, there is an inherent bias against that kind of thinking because people have a gut measure of cost for things like (filter ...)
22:57	tomoj	yeah
22:58	tomoj	I think I still sometimes felt a gut reaction against things similar to (first (filter ..))
22:58	tomoj	s.felt.feel.
23:10	quotemstr	Why is (let [foo 5] #'foo) an error?
23:10	quotemstr	Vars only exist for dynamically-bound symbols?
23:11	tomoj	vars only exist when you create them
23:11	tomoj	e.g. with def
23:13	quotemstr	Which corresponds to the invisible "value cell" in Common Lisp.
23:13	tomoj	local variables don't vary
23:13	quotemstr	I forgot that detail. :)
23:45	quotemstr	Why are send and send-off separate functions?
23:49	technomancy	quotemstr: sometimes you want a bounded thread pool, and sometimes you want unbounded
23:50	technomancy	depending on whether the work you're sending is IO-bound or CPU-bound.
23:50	technomancy	send-off is for IO-bound
23:50	quotemstr	technomancy: That's what the documentation says, but it'd be nice if the documented explained the difference in thread-pool model instead of just saying "A is for X and B is for Y".
23:51	quotemstr	Or better yet, Clojure could directly expose the thread pool to user code. :) (Maybe it does?)
23:51	technomancy	it does, but I don't know if it's documented
23:52	technomancy	,clojure.lang.Agent/pooledExecutor
23:52	clojurebot	#<ThreadPoolExecutor java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor@613e0>