#clojure – 2010-06-09

2010-06-09

00:00	Raynes	technomancy: He uses Emacs now?
00:00	technomancy	yeah
00:00	Raynes	technomancy: Hot.
00:00	lancepantz	the kinesis was really difficult at first, but after a couple of weeks, you get used to it
00:00	technomancy	for the record, nothing beats keyboard pants: http://www.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/4397554484/
00:00	lancepantz	and it's awesome
00:00	LuminousMonkey	Maybe I should give Emacs another go, but I really think I need to figure out how to redo the keybinds.
00:01	Raynes	technomancy: Are you purposely requiring that each key -> value pair passed to add-query-params be a sequence?
00:02	maravillas	technomancy: not even a bacon maple eclair?
00:02	jartur	lancepantz: damn, I will order it someday. Though it would probably never ship to my country. Will get lost at customs office or smth like that
00:02	technomancy	Raynes: uh... that'd be unintentional. dang.
00:02	technomancy	that's why they call it a snapshot I guess
00:02	lancepantz	jartur: if you have a problem with RSI, its a lifesaver
00:02	Raynes	technomancy: Aw man. Now I'll have to change all of sexpbot's plugins again. :(
00:03	Raynes	technomancy: I'll fix it in a little while, if you want.
00:03	technomancy	that would be super
00:03	Raynes	I knew it seemed a little odd (add-query-params "http://blah.com" ["key" "val"])
00:04	technomancy	the new snazzy keyword params would be a good way to do it, except for how it requires 1.2
00:04	jartur	lancepantz: not that I have really. I play piano and position my fingers on the keyboard the same way.
00:04	jartur	lancepantz: maybe that helps me from getting any tension
00:05	jartur	technomancy: btw, is 1.2 going to be released soon?
00:06	jartur	lancepantz: just want to try something completely different =)
00:06	Raynes	technomancy: 1.2's keyword parameters would be a perfect match for the request function in client as well.
00:06	lancepantz	jartur: yeah, i'm sure it does, like i said, what really killed mine was playing fps'
00:07	technomancy	jartur: I wish I knew.
00:09	jartur	Clojure is so fast-moving... It scared me at first
00:09	jartur	Not that now I am in any way proficient with it. But a little less scared of what is going on.
00:10	scottj	has cemerick been explicit about what he feels is lacking in the big 3 ide plugins? It seems like things lacking are not company-size endeavors. a few refactorings and maybe better completion and paredit for the 2 that don't have it's basica functionality
00:10	jartur	scottj: which one has paredit?
00:11	scottj	jartur: not sure which, it's a limited version of paredit. I think eclipse
00:11	jartur	scottj: Ah... okay. Neve tried an eclipse one. Can't stand that product.
00:12	brweber2	can anyone point me to a decent blog/tutorial/etc on calling Clojure from Java?
00:12	jartur	Btw, does anybody know anything about the future of Clojure on .NET?
00:12	brweber2	I'd prefer to avoid the RT.* route if possible (I already have my classes compiled and jar'd up)
00:12	tomoj	Raynes: with keyword args, though, what do you do if you've built up the map elsewhere?
00:12	lancepantz	i dont think the market would be large enough for a commercial clojure ide
00:12	lancepantz	i guess we're growing
00:13	Raynes	tomoj: What do you mean? How would that effect anything?
00:13	jartur	brweber2: You mean you have :gen-class'ed java classes?
00:13	tomoj	I mean, given (defn foo [& {:as m}] m) (is that right?), what do you do if you've got a map?
00:14	tomoj	you can't (apply foo the-map)
00:14	brweber2	jartur (I did a compile of the entire namespace actually, including some defprotocols...)
00:14	scottj	jartur: I think the future is to have more of clojure written in clojure. be more specific :)
00:14	Raynes	tomoj: What function are we talking about here?
00:14	tomoj	seems like you have to do (apply foo (flatten (for [[k v] the-map] [k v]))) or something
00:15	jartur	brweber2: Hmm. If you don't want to use RT.* use :gen-class and expose all the methods you want manually
00:16	tomoj	oh, good question
00:16	tomoj	I didn't actually think about the function you were recommending keyword args for
00:16	tomoj	probably no problem there, you're right
00:16	jartur	scottj: Rewriting clojure in clojure as much as possible is good. It will make it easier to be platform independend
00:16	Raynes	technomancy: Am I right in assuming that you want add-query-params to work like so: (add-query-params url key1 val1 key2 val2)?
00:16	brweber2	jartur is RT.* really the preferred way to do this? This is the nastiest side of clojure I've seen to do (calling Clojure from Java)
00:16	Raynes	tomoj: :)
00:17	jartur	scottj: I'm just thinking about clojure running on .NET. Imagine a nice XAML library. Writing XAML in lisp instead of actual XML looks nice.
00:17	tomoj	add-query-params seems like a place where a problem might happen, though
00:18	Raynes	tomoj: I'm not entirely certain what Phil was talking about, actually. But we aren't doing that right now anyway.
00:18	technomancy	Raynes: that'd be fine. keeping all the params in a map for the second arg would be just as good; whichever you prefer.
00:18	scottj	Do ruby projects specify their dependencies w/o version numbers often? It sounds convenient, and I wondered why lein doesn't support it (afaik), but I guess it could lead to projects that don't work after awhile because of changing dependencies. thoughts on versionless (latest) dependencies?
00:19	jartur	brweber2: Well... clojure's a little different from Java. I guess it's what we have
00:19	technomancy	scottj: everyone leaves off the version numbers at first. then they get bit by a "minor bugfix upgrade" that sneaks into production, and then they never do it again.
00:19	Raynes	technomancy: I think the way above would be better. If you have a map, you can just apply it. Less line noise when you don't want it.
00:19	technomancy	(IME)
00:19	tomoj	you can't just apply it, though, can you?
00:20	tomoj	that's what I was trying to point out earlier
00:20	brweber2	jartur I love the Clojure side of Clojure, I had been misled into thinking that calling Clojure from Java is somewhat cleaner than I'm finding it to be. I have an inner class for example that I can't figure out how to call invoke on (should be not too hard...)
00:20	Raynes	tomoj: (apply add-query-params url {"foo" "bar"})
00:20	Raynes	Oh wait.
00:20	tomoj	yeah :(
00:21	jartur	brweber2: I think clj->java interop was given more priority that java->clj when it all was designed
00:21	brweber2	jartur I'm sure that was the case
00:21	tomoj	brweber2: you have an inner class in clojure and you're trying to call invoke on it from java? I must be confused..
00:21	jartur	brweber2: I think that a really good two way interop would be too limiting
00:21	Raynes	$(letfn [(foo [& blah] blah)] (apply foo {"foo" "bar"}))
00:21	sexpbot	=> (["foo" "bar"])
00:21	Raynes	Ouch.
00:22	brweber2	tomoj The inner class was generated by (compile 'my-ns)
00:22	jartur	brweber2: Hmm...
00:22	Raynes	$(letfn [(foo [& blah] blah)] (apply foo ["foo" "bar"]))
00:22	sexpbot	=> ("foo" "bar")
00:22	Raynes	Indeed, guess we are going the map route.
00:22	technomancy	scottj: anyway, if you trust a project to use semantic versioning (which you probably shouldn't unless you control it) you can specify a dependency on it with a version range, which will be documented in the next lein release.
00:22	brweber2	interestingly, I have an inner class without an outer class (I had no idea that was allowed!)
00:22	tomoj	brweber2: did you already explain why you're not using gen-class?
00:23	jartur	brweber2: I think you do something rather un-idiomatic
00:23	brweber2	tomoj I used compile to compile the entire namespace
00:23	tomoj	that doesn't sound like a good explanation to me :/
00:23	jartur	brweber2: Yeah, but it's kust AOT
00:23	brweber2	should I use :gen-class to compile every method instead of the entire ns?
00:24	tomoj	just put a (:gen-class) in your ns
00:24	Raynes	technomancy: A side note: after I installed the 2010* slime and swank a few days ago, whenever I slime connect, it warns me that my slime and swank are unmatched (2009 slime, 2010 swank). However, when it starts up, the correct date is shown. "SLIME 20100404"
00:24	jartur	You should use gen-class and have methods with named like (defn -lalala .... )
00:24	Raynes	Not that it's causing any problems.
00:24	Raynes	Just curious if that is expected.
00:24	jartur	these -lalala methods would be public methods of your class
00:25	jartur	Raynes: I have this every time I update
00:25	technomancy	Raynes: yeah, that's a bug in the slime build; the version number is set at compile time when the old version is still around. =\ delete the .elc file to fix it.
00:25	Raynes	technomancy: Cool. Thanks. :)
00:25	brweber2	jartur and tomoj (adding :gen-class, will be back in a second with the results)
00:26	jartur	brweber2: Have you read 'Practical Clojure'?
00:26	scottj	what's the elisp var for telling slime to ignore swank version diffs?
00:26	jartur	Btw, I really think that Clojure needs a nice CC book
00:26	brweber2	jartur No, I have Stu's book and The Joy of Clojure MEAP
00:26	jartur	brweber2: Okay. I think they do have chapters about :gen-class
00:26	jartur	And how it works
00:27	jartur	I think you should re-read them crefully
00:28	jartur	It's actually a rather powerful interface for generating java classes
00:29	Raynes	technomancy: Pull req sent. No hurry, but it would be great if you could toss out a new snapshot as soon as possible so that I can get sexpbot up to date. Pace yourself though, heaven knows you're a busy man. :p
00:30	scottj	jartur: by cc I imagine you mean creative commons, and I'm not sure I agree. I feel like from intro to clojure youtube, rhickey videos, website, and reading core.clj, you can get a better understanding than stu etc books with less time.
00:30	Lajla	Why are their two evaluating bots here?
00:30	jartur	scottj: Well, it depends on a person
00:30	jartur	scottj: I got from 'Practical Clojure' so much so fast
00:30	jartur	scottj: like 'It's super effective' on me =)
00:30	Raynes	Lajla: Always good to have a backup.
00:31	Lajla	Raynes, if that job pays well, I might consider signing up as third.
00:31	Lajla	Those bots must have amazing typing speeds though.
00:31	Raynes	I don't use him for any specific reason over clojurebot. I just use him in every other channel but this one, so $ instead of , comes naturally.
00:31	Raynes	Not that I'm not biased. <3
00:32	scottj	jartur: fair enough, personally I don't feel like I got much out of stu's or joy meap (particularly).
00:32	Lajla	$"string"
00:32	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
00:32	Lajla	,"string"
00:32	clojurebot	"string"
00:33	jartur	scottj: Maybe you are too awesome. =) And then I didn't get much of Stu's book as well
00:33	Lajla	Sexptbot, should've called it listbot.
00:33	jartur	scottj: Others I haven't read
00:33	jartur	$'a
00:33	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
00:33	Raynes	Lajla: $eval "string"
00:33	jartur	$'(2 3)
00:33	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
00:33	Raynes	$eval 'a
00:33	sexpbot	=> a
00:33	jartur	,'a
00:33	clojurebot	a
00:34	Raynes	That stuff doesn't work because $( is a normal command. $eval has to be used for stuff that doesn't start with a parenthesis.
00:34	jartur	,'$(+ 1 2)
00:34	clojurebot	$
00:34	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
00:34	Lajla	$(write "Do you support side-effects?")
00:34	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: write in this context
00:34	Raynes	Whoa! Bug!
00:34	tomoj	uh oh
00:34	Raynes	He's supposed to ignore clojurebot.
00:34	jartur	=)
00:35	tomoj	as long as clojurebot isn't buggy at the same time we'll be OK :)
00:35	jartur	Well, I don't think anybody would really like to execute Y on these two
00:36	Raynes	That isn't a bug. I never made him ignore clojurebot. I merely made him ignore links from clojurebot when the title scraper was on. I added the => stuff to evaluation so that infinite bot loops wouldn't be possible.
00:36	tomoj	ah
00:36	Raynes	Had a brainfart for a moment there.
00:37	Raynes	He should still probably ignore clojurebot for annoyance's sake, but infinite loops shouldn't be possible regardless.
00:40	brweber2	tomoj and jartur thanks, I'm one step closer
00:40	Raynes	The behavior of $( always trips people who are used to clojurebot up. I tried to avoid adding special behavior for sexpbot's evaluation. I need to put "allow special plugin-specific prepends" to my TODO list.
00:47	Lajla	$(do [k 10 acc 0] (if (< k 0) acc (recur (- k 1) (+ acc 1)))
00:47	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
00:47	Lajla	$(do [k 10 acc 0] (if (< k 0) acc (recur (- k 1) (+ acc 1))))
00:47	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: k in this context
00:47	Lajla	$(loop [k 10 acc 0] (if (< k 0) acc (recur (- k 1) (+ acc 1)))
00:47	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
00:47	Lajla	I give up
00:48	Lajla	Ohh, forgot brace
00:48	Lajla	$(loop [k 10 acc 0] (if (< k 0) acc (recur (- k 1) (+ acc 1))))
00:48	sexpbot	=> 11
00:48	Lajla	Salvation
00:48	Raynes	$(loop [k 10 acc 0] (if (< k 0) acc (recur (- k 1) (+ acc 1))))
00:48	sexpbot	=> 11
00:48	Lajla	I salvated first.
00:48	Raynes	:p
00:49	Lajla	Raynes, cloj doesn't support named-let, does it?
00:49	Raynes	named-let?
00:51	Lajla	Raynes, basically like loop, but then like (let arbitrary-name ... ) where arbitrary name becomes a function in the body.
00:51	Lajla	Like loop/recur, but not needing to be in the tail per se.
00:53	Raynes	If I understand you correctly, I don't think so.
00:54	Raynes	$(let [x "hai"] x) ; We have let, in any case.
00:54	sexpbot	=> "hai"
00:54	tomoj	fns can be named
00:55	tomoj	not sure if that would work for what you're trying, though..
00:55	Raynes	Oh, is that what he was talking about?
00:55	tomoj	no, but seems similar
00:56	tomoj	demo:
00:56	tomoj	$(take 10 ((fn fib [x y] (lazy-seq (cons x (fib y (+ x y))))) 1 1))
00:56	sexpbot	=> (1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55)
00:56	tomoj	could write a macro with a let-style binding form that expands to something like that I suppose?
00:57	Lajla	Raynes, well, a named is basically like loop/recur except that you can chose the name for 'recur' and it doesn't have to be in the tail position.
00:58	Raynes	Yeah, normal recursion. I know what you're talking about now.
00:58	Lajla	Like (let recur ... ) would be in the named-let style a loop/recur in which 'recur' needn't per se be called in the tail position.
00:58	Raynes	The way you said it was confusing. :p
00:58	Lajla	Raynes, well yeah, except that if you don't target the JVM you get tail recursion anyway. =P
00:58	Lajla	A thing I don't get though, is that tail recursion is lexically inferrable.
00:58	tomoj	I think using a fn like above is equivalent?
00:58	Raynes	You can do that in Clojure, but it wont be optimized.
00:59	Lajla	So if loop/recur is optimized, why can't a normal tail call be?
00:59	Lajla	Theoretically, a compiler could even rewrite your code to a loop/recur if you used tail recursion, right?
00:59	mmarczyk	Lajla: JVM bytecode which might consider attempting to modify the stack won't pass verification
00:59	mmarczyk	so that would have to happen on the JVM level
01:00	mmarczyk	and, as we all know, it doesn't currently
01:00	Lajla	mmarczyk, but I mean, say you have a source which has (let loop [x 0] ... (loop (+ x 1))
01:00	mmarczyk	what is possible in Java is to use break foo; / continue foo; for foo a label
01:00	Lajla	Surely the compiler can just rewrite that source to (loop [x 0] ... recur(+ x 1))
01:00	mmarczyk	to break out of a couple of nested loops... I wonder if whichever bytecode corresponds to this
01:01	jartur	mmarczyk: Lajla means pure sytactic transofrmations
01:01	Lajla	And then treat it as if it would with loop/recur?
01:01	mmarczyk	could be used for a named let-like recur
01:01	Lajla	jartur, well, no matter in what way, a tail-call is lexically inferrable.
01:01	mmarczyk	well, take a non-trivial scenario and try to rewrite it yourself :-)
01:01	Lajla	Surely the compiler can then recognise it and compile it to different code than a simple function call?
01:02	mmarczyk	you'll end up using some sort of flag to indicate which loop is to move forward next, I would guess
01:02	jartur	Lajla: I don't think lexically, I think syntactically?
01:02	Lajla	jartur, no, lexically.
01:02	mmarczyk	anyway, a full named let-like think is impossible without proper TCO
01:02	jartur	Lajla: why?
01:02	Lajla	I mean, as an obvious example in a C-style langauge, if a function call is directly following a return statement.
01:02	mmarczyk	because in the named let, say (let foo (...) ...)
01:02	Lajla	You have a tail-call.
01:03	mmarczyk	foo is really bound to a function
01:03	jartur	Lajla: lexical analysis is only a tokenization of the strea,
01:03	mmarczyk	which you can, in particular, pass to other functions etc.
01:03	mmarczyk	^named let-like thing
01:03	clojurebot	most horrible thing is http://tinyurl.com/b65o8e
01:03	jartur	Lajla: you can't infer anything from lexems
01:03	Lajla	jartur, as far as I know my terminology, lexical analysis is all a compiler can know without running any applications.
01:03	Lajla	Such as static type errors.
01:03	jartur	Lajla: no.
01:03	Lajla	Or more properly proving no type errors are going to occur.
01:03	jartur	Lajla: it's static analysis
01:03	mmarczyk	that's actually called static analysis
01:04	mmarczyk	right.
01:04	Lajla	Ah
01:04	Lajla	I use the terms lexical and static interchangeable.
01:04	jartur	Lajla: it includes lexical analysis + syntax analysis + semantic analysis
01:04	jartur	at least
01:04	Lajla	As in, determinable from program source without running code.
01:04	Lajla	But anyway, doesn't matter that much, it's still statically inferrable, before running, a tail call.
01:05	mmarczyk	so anyway, for the reason mentioned above, you cannot mimick Scheme's named let
01:05	jartur	Lajla: Ah, I see where you come from. It's lexical like in 'lexical scoping' =)
01:05	Lajla	So it could be compiled to different code than an ordinary call, right?
01:05	mmarczyk	some scheme to do local multi-level looping could be implemented as a macro, I guess
01:05	mmarczyk	I'd give it a shot if I were less sleepy, but alas, another time maybe ;-)
01:05	Lajla	jartur, well, lexical scoping is an example yes.
01:06	Lajla	mmarczyk, will you hug me for the idea when you succeed?
01:06	mmarczyk	I actually had the idea before :-)
01:06	Lajla	Then hug yourself first, and then me.
01:06	mmarczyk	sounds tricky
01:07	Lajla	mmarczyk, you are the fifth greatest programmer in the world, you can do all.
01:07	Lajla	Except beat the Microsoft CSA and me amongst others.
01:07	mmarczyk	I'm not sure which ordering on the population of programmers you're using
01:08	mmarczyk	I've ranked myself closer to 10^6th spot and I thought that bordered on hubris ;-)
01:10	Lajla	mmarczyk, we lispers are gods, you must realize.
01:10	Lajla	Only the person that invented the FAT16 filesystem can beat us.
01:10	jartur	,(for [x ['mmarczyk 'Lajla]] `(mmarzczyk hugs ~x))
01:10	clojurebot	((sandbox/mmarzczyk sandbox/hugs mmarczyk) (sandbox/mmarzczyk sandbox/hugs Lajla))
01:10	mmarczyk	(loop [level 0 ...lots-of-other-locals...] (case level 0 (...outer loop body...) 1 (...middle loop body...) 2 (...inner loop body...)))
01:11	technomancy	mmarczyk: you had an idea for a lein patch that I think I missed earlier?
01:11	technomancy	or more than an idea?
01:12	mmarczyk	technomancy: I've sent you a pull request adding handling of extra project.clj entries for inclusion in pom.xml, mailing list addresses, licenses, project url (I think that's all)
01:12	mmarczyk	that was a while back
01:12	mmarczyk	so, it includes some modifications to README to explain the usage of those
01:12	mmarczyk	but now that you've added sample.project.clj, I could put stuff in there
01:13	mmarczyk	in an updated version, if you feel like you might want to pull that in
01:13	technomancy	mmarczyk: that'd be great
01:13	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, since case, cond, and, or et cetera are all rewritten to if, the only thing you need to pay to is recursivelly it's a tail call if it's the last sub-form of the body, or part of a then or else branch of an if-form which is a tail call.
01:13	mmarczyk	technomancy: cool, I expect to have a super-busy day today, so I'll probably send a new pull request tomorrow
01:14	Lajla	That should be statically inferrable, after that, it can be compiled to a loop/jump on the JVM, and not an ordinary procedure call, right?
01:14	mmarczyk	technomancy: incidentally, that patch allows all of :licence, :license, :licences and :licenses to be used, where the singulars take single items and plurals take seqs... are you ok with that? :-)
01:16	tomoj	Lajla: those are rewritten to if?
01:16	mmarczyk	case is not rewritten to if, afair
01:17	mmarczyk	I believe it's a hash-map-like dispatch
01:18	mmarczyk	Lajla: I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve
01:19	mmarczyk	if it's just the possibility to recur to the top of an enclosing loop from an inner loop
01:19	tomoj	Lajla wants TCO in the compiler, I thought?
01:19	mmarczyk	then the loop/recur form I offered above is one way of doing that and you could write a macro to expand to that
01:20	mmarczyk	but a full named let is impossible
01:20	mmarczyk	because, as I said above, in Scheme (let foo (...) ...) binds foo to a function
01:20	Lajla	mmarczyk, Clojure doesn't rewrite all conditionals to if with macros?
01:20	mmarczyk	most, but not case, I think
01:20	tomoj	"full named let" means with TCO?
01:20	Lajla	mmarczyk, yeah, but a compiler can statically check if a function is called in the tail.
01:21	Lajla	And then compile to different code than an ordinary function call.
01:21	mmarczyk	tomoj: well, sure, since we can have named let without TCO
01:21	mmarczyk	tomoj: but I mostly meant the fact that foo is a function
01:21	tomoj	ok, was just checking I wasn't confused
01:21	mmarczyk	Lajla: actually that's not true for Clojure's compiler
01:21	tomoj	oh, hmm, what's wrong with foo being a function?
01:21	Lajla	mmarczyk, why can't it?
01:22	mmarczyk	because it can't spit out code which could manipulate the stack
01:22	mmarczyk	the stack is where the arguments need to be placed
01:22	mmarczyk	in stack frames
01:22	Lajla	Ahhh
01:22	mmarczyk	prior to the jump to the top of the routine being called
01:22	Lajla	This JVM is a lot more complex than a typical instruction set I gather?
01:22	mmarczyk	not at all
01:23	mmarczyk	but the bytecode gets passed through a so-called "verifier" when it's loaded
01:23	Lajla	mmarczyk, ahhh
01:23	mmarczyk	if it doesn't meet certain safety criteria, it won't be loaded
01:23	Blackfoot	has anyone built clojure-couchdb? when i try to ./lein jar I just get a zip/jar file with the clj files in it
01:23	mmarczyk	part of that is that it must not manipulate the stack in funky ways
01:24	mmarczyk	meaning in a way except through regular JVM-supported method calling facilities
01:24	Lajla	mmarczyk, and why is it not possible to for instance compile normal functions in the tail position to the same java bytecode as loop/recur gets compiled to?
01:24	mmarczyk	Lajla: and how'd you go about that?
01:24	mmarczyk	surely you wouldn't want to inline every function which happens to be mentioned in a tail position
01:24	mmarczyk	at each tail call site
01:25	mmarczyk	also, you might make a tail call where you don't statically know which function will end up being called
01:25	mmarczyk	apply doesn't know which functions it might apply, for instance
01:25	Lajla	mmarczyk, I don't get you, you always statically know if a function is in the tail position.
01:25	mmarczyk	yeah, you might know that and yet not know which function it is
01:26	mmarczyk	(fn [f] (f))
01:26	mmarczyk	(lambda (f) (f)) in Scheme
01:27	Lajla	That can be lexically detected there and compile that form to a different code then if it wasn't tailed.
01:27	Lajla	That's how Scheme does it I think.
01:27	mmarczyk	um, nope
01:27	Lajla	How then?
01:27	Lajla	It decides it at runtime?
01:27	mmarczyk	depending on the implementation, Scheme programmes might be subjected to a full-programme CPS transform
01:27	mmarczyk	then their function never "return"
01:28	mmarczyk	I think Chicken does that
01:28	Lajla	Yeah, chicken compiles like that to C.
01:28	mmarczyk	an alternative would be to rewrite the last stack frame
01:28	mmarczyk	I would say that this sort of CPS transform is problematic for Clojure
01:28	mmarczyk	because it's meant to be callable from other JVM languages
01:29	mmarczyk	so needs to follow standard calling conventions
01:29	Lajla	Well, if you say so, I still think I'm missing some vital info here.
01:29	tomoj	I trust rich will do what's best :)
01:29	mmarczyk	in fact, I should have mentioned this earlier, since this disqualifies quite a number of possible approaches :-P
01:29	Lajla	Trust no one, not even me.
01:29	Lajla	Not even banknotes or He they say you must trust.
01:29	mmarczyk	well, if you can't touch the stack and can't do cps on all your functions
01:29	mmarczyk	and also
01:30	tomoj	if the tradeoff were worth it to get people to stop saying "WTF NO TCO?!", I'm sure he'd do it
01:30	mmarczyk	you can't really jump to the top of another routine
01:30	Lajla	tomoj, I got that idea, that's why I'm puzzled.
01:30	mmarczyk	there's no goto in Java, I expect the JVM not to be accommodating if one tried to introduce it...
01:30	Lajla	I'm currently investigating writing a compiler, I'll guess I'll go with C-- though
01:30	Lajla	C with TCO, amazing.
01:31	mmarczyk	gcc can do that for you, I believe :-)
01:31	mmarczyk	though you might have to ask
01:31	Lajla	mmarczyk, actually, goto is a reserved word in Java, but cannot be used for any purpose.
01:31	Lajla	Well, C-- is far more amazing than C to be honest.
01:32	Lajla	You don't have types like 'int' and 'char', you have bits8, bits32 et cetera
01:32	mmarczyk	yeah, that's at the level of Java syntax, but I would be amazed if you could "goto" at the level of JVM bytecode
01:32	mmarczyk	so, if you can't manipulate the stack, can't jump to arbitrary code, can't CPS transform your code...
01:33	mmarczyk	you're left to petition to the platform developer for TCO & continuations
01:33	Lajla	Seems more complex than your average instruction set, or even C--, but I never read the JVM specs.
01:33	mmarczyk	if anything, this particular point makes it simpler
01:33	mmarczyk	one less thing you can do :-)
01:35	mmarczyk	it would be interesting to compare the performance of SISC, say, or ABCL if it provides TCO
01:35	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, I tend to define 'simple' as 'being composable from fewer axioms'
01:35	mmarczyk	to that of Clojure
01:35	Lajla	What's SISC?
01:36	mmarczyk	Lajla: I understand that neither of us knows which number of instructions the JVM and, say, x86-64 provide, so it'll be hard to decide on which is simpler just now
01:36	mmarczyk	SISC is a JVM Scheme
01:36	mmarczyk	not sure if it's maintained, though
01:37	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, I guess I don't measure complexity by the amount of instructions. I mean, one 'instruction' can have a more complex operation.
01:37	Lajla	ADdition is a lot less complex than computing an arctangent (apparently x86 has this)
01:40	mmarczyk	ok, got to go for now; bbl -- see you!
01:42	Lajla	mmarczyk, you cannot, you are the fifth greatest programmer in the world.
01:49	Blackfoot	how does the classpath work for jars that lein produces with clj files in them? I'm 'use'ing a jar produced by lein, but my new method is not available in the namespace
02:10	TheBusby	the classpath will need to specify the jar
02:10	TheBusby	Example: export CLASSPATH=/home/foo/MyJar.jar
02:16	Blackfoot	TheBusby: ah ok. i think i figured it out. there was an older jar in the system classpath
02:20	nipra	Is it possible to give nicknames to a namespace using ns macro like defpackage in CL?
02:22	Blackfoot	when you (use) a namespace, you can give it a nickname with :as
02:22	Blackfoot	or require: (:require [clojure.contrib [error-kit :as kit]])
02:23	Blackfoot	(:use [some.long.identifier :as nick])
02:23	Raynes	ninjudd: In ns: (:use [some.sort.of.long.namespace :as ssoln]), outside: (use '[some.sort.of.long.namespace :as ssoln])
02:23	Raynes	nipra: Sorry, wrong 'n'. :p
02:23	tomoj	weird that :use can do that
02:24	tomoj	oh
02:24	tomoj	:use :as refers to everything AND gives you a nickname
02:25	tomoj	usually want (:require [foo.bar :as baz]) I think
02:26	nipra	Raynes, will (in-ns 'ssoln) work?
02:27	jartur	nipra: It will set ssoln as a current ns
02:27	nipra	Raynes, I want to use the nickname to change the namespace at repl from long ns to short ns.
02:27	tomoj	nope, won't work
02:28	jartur	I think (alias short long)
02:28	jartur	(alias 'db 'clojure.contrib.sql)
02:28	tomoj	still won't work
02:28	tomoj	ideally your development environment will help you with switching namespaces in the repl
02:29	mmarczyk	(defn switch-ns [sym] (in-ns (if-let [full ((ns-aliases ns) sym)] full sym)))
02:29	tomoj	oh, cool :)
02:29	mmarczyk	:-)
02:32	mmarczyk	ah, only it won't work... correction: (defn switch-ns [sym] (in-ns (if-let [full ((ns-aliases ns) sym)] (.getName full) sym)))
02:33	jartur	This is the first time I saw (if-let [b t] t e) form
02:34	jartur	So much to learn...
02:36	jartur	Like the other day I have constructed an atrocious monster construct with merge and filter to filter a few keys from a hash.... Then I read about dissoc
02:37	Blackfoot	if-let and when-let are great, i keep wishing i had them in other languages now
02:37	technomancy	what'll really blow your mind is the fact that it's pronounced "dissosh"
02:37	jartur	=)
02:37	mmarczyk	(defn switch-ns [sym] (if-let [target (or (find-ns sym) ((ns-aliases ns) sym))] (in-ns (.getName target))))
02:37	jartur	Yeah.
02:37	technomancy	not "dissock"
02:37	mmarczyk	more in line with the name, I guess...
02:38	jartur	dissauche
02:39	mmarczyk	jartur: in case you need to do the reverse, remeber about select-keys :-)
02:39	jartur	mmarczyk: thanks. I'll try to remember that =)
02:41	jartur	I have a design question. I have a set of functions, all of which are private and call each other. Each one does a little to process input and then passes it to the other function.
02:41	jartur	Now, the last function in the chain actually does use a database connection
02:42	jartur	Which my public function (the most abstarct one, it's the one that is the most far from the function that does the work)
02:42	jartur	gets when called
02:42	mmarczyk	maybe have them return the result of the processing, then use (-> input f1 f2 f3 ... (f-last db-connection)) ?
02:43	jartur	mmarczyk: Damn. It's not a dilemma anymore!
02:43	jartur	It's a trilemma =)
02:43	mmarczyk	ouch :-)
02:43	Blackfoot	heh what's the question?
02:44	jartur	I like this threading approach. Completely forgot about it already.
02:44	jartur	I was thinking about either passing the connection as a param through all the fns
02:44	jartur	Or using some var and call the chain with (binding ...)
02:44	jartur	I don't like this (binding stuff)
02:45	jartur	Cuz it looks os wrong
02:45	maxhodak	when something's a personal project, is the convention to do "maxhodak.foo.bar" or "com.maxhodak.foo.bar" or ...?
02:45	jartur	But having the same param everywhere is such a nuisance
02:45	mmarczyk	maxhodak: some examples of things which started out as personal projects include Clojure, Compojure, Ring, Enlive, ... :-)
02:46	mmarczyk	Enlive does use net.cgrand.enlive-html as the main ns name
02:46	jartur	But now when I see (-> ...) I think I have to re-think some things
02:46	jartur	Like how not awesome I am =/
02:47	mmarczyk	jartur: I went through a period of not using -> / ->> at all in the beginning of my time with Clojure
02:47	mmarczyk	to reimplementing it as a syntax-rules macro for use in Scheme :-)
02:47	jartur	mmarczyk: I come to clojure with some Scheme background.
02:48	jartur	mmarczyk: So for me making all just functional seems like the most 'right' thing
02:48	mmarczyk	yeah
02:48	jartur	mmarczyk: And writing macros in scheme is not painless =)
02:48	jartur	I can't believe how simple clj macro system is
02:48	mmarczyk	in this case, you'll just need to look around the standard lib and you'll feel right at home :-)
02:49	mmarczyk	well, you probably already do
02:49	mmarczyk	as for your private functions, I think it's a bit wasteful to have them call each other
02:49	mmarczyk	rather than simply return the result of their little bit of processing
02:50	jartur	I just need to shift my approach to FP in general
02:51	jartur	Also I think one (me included) should resist any temptation to use vars as long as it doesn't really make things cleaner.
02:51	Lajla	jartur, pain is the essence of good programming.
02:51	Lajla	To have a dark side.
02:51	mmarczyk	jartur: agreed on binding
02:51	jartur	Lajla: I love scheme macros actually
02:52	jartur	Lajla: define-syntax is awesome
02:52	Lajla	jartur, my own hygienic macro system is so much more awesome.
02:52	Lajla	But I agree, it is.
02:52	jartur	Lajla: But not easy. Esp. when you do it your first several times
02:52	Lajla	I just miss sequencing in it.
02:52	Lajla	jartur, it's fairly human readible, is it not.
02:53	Lajla	It's almost WYSIWYG macroing.
02:53	jartur	Lajla: Yes, but getting to understand all this syntax-objects
02:53	Blackfoot	threading data through functions makes the functions easier to test, too
02:53	mmarczyk	(define-syntax -> (syntax-rules () ((-> x) x) ((-> x ()) (error)) ((-> x (y . ys)) (y x . ys)) ((-> x y . ys) (-> (-> x y) . ys))))
02:54	jartur	mmarczyk: you are a maniac, no?
02:54	mmarczyk	one of the nice cases where macro by example is simpler :-)
02:54	mmarczyk	um? ;-)
02:55	Lajla	jartur, my system works like this: {define-syntax {let ((<symbol:name> <form:value>) ...) <form:body>} ({lambda (<symbol:name> ...) <form:body>} <form:value> ...)}
02:56	mmarczyk	Lajla: a fan of PL:AI?
02:56	Lajla	mmarczyk, what is that?
02:56	jartur	I used syntax-case
02:56	jartur	syntax-case is a little more difficult than syntax-rules I believe
02:57	Lajla	jartur, it's also not fully static.
02:57	Lajla	Is my impression
02:57	Lajla	it seems to be able to evaluate expressions, strangely.
02:57	mmarczyk	Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation, by Shriram Krishnamurthi
02:57	Lajla	mmarczyk, never heard of it.
02:57	Lajla	mmarczyk, why?
02:57	Lajla	They also use extremely complicated, barely readable hygienic macro systems?
02:58	jartur	=)
02:58	jartur	syntax-case is just a little mind-boggling
02:58	Lajla	jartur, and I believe, not static.
02:59	Lajla	jartur, but one day, you'll be the third best programmer in the world, and understand it all.
02:59	mmarczyk	Lajla: just because of your use of {}
03:00	Lajla	mmarczyk, ohhh, nonononono, my lisp firmly destinghuishes {syntax . <list:parametres>} from (function-call . <list:arguments>)
03:00	Lajla	Syntax is not data, you can kiss your eval goodbye.
03:00	jartur	http://gist.github.com/431147 - example of a relatively not simple syntax-case macro
03:00	mmarczyk	your lisp is not a lisp then, but of course it might still be a nice language ;-)
03:01	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, considerate point.
03:02	Lajla	I found it particularly ideal to seperate syntax, which has its own evaluation model from functions, which do not in terms of compilation.
03:02	Raynes	Yo dawg, we herd u liek lisp, so we put a macro in your macro, so you can generate code while you generate code.
03:04	mmarczyk	jartur: ah, looks nice... regrettably I never spent much time with syntax-case
03:04	Lajla	Raynes, well, all people like lisp.
03:05	Lajla	I consider revoking people status for those that don't.
03:05	Raynes	That's a lot of people, sir.
03:05	Raynes	You give humans too much credit.
03:05	Lajla	So that we may lock them up into 1 by 1 prisons with five of them and feed them hormones so that we can eat their delicious meat.
03:05	jartur	mmarczyk: looks nice, but no so nice when you are newbie and try to write that
03:05	mmarczyk	I do recall having a paper by Dybvig on my pile which will probably lead to me learning about it, though :-)
03:05	Lajla	Raynes, it's hard not to overcredit people.
03:05	Lajla	Raynes, but you, you I will always love.
03:06	mmarczyk	jartur: there's some mercy in the fact that a newbie will not try to write that :-)
03:06	jartur	mmarczyk: I did =)
03:06	Lajla	mmarczyk, I disagree.
03:06	Lajla	Most people learn programming in reverse, they first do things, then they learn to understand what they did 4 years later.
03:06	mmarczyk	jartur: apparently you never noticed the point at which you ceased to be a newbie then ;-)
03:07	mmarczyk	Lajla: hah! actually I think you're totally right
03:07	jartur	mmarczyk: About the time i've finished that and a couple of other macros =))
03:07	Lajla	It takes an average C programmer 5 years to realize the fact that "Hello, World!" as an expression evaluates to a char pointer and has the side effect of statically allocating a lot of chars and a 0 which is not larger than a short int into memory.
03:07	Lajla	They also seem to forget a lot that the C standard actually allows for char to be the same size as int.
03:08	Lajla	mmarczyk, I myself praefer to first be able to write a formal specification in a language before I begin printing hello world, it makes me feel intelligent.
03:08	Lajla	Just like writing 'praefer' with ae, I think you all find me very intelligent and interesting then, amirite?
03:09	jartur	Lajla: most definitely so.
03:10	Lajla	And think that I have a bookshelf of Encyclopædiæ Britannicæ and various diplomata from academic institutes, and by my wise skills have never been caught by computer virus, whose linguistic use of mine is but surely only a mass noun.
03:10	Lajla	I was thinking of putting 'octopodes' in that sentence, but found no adequate place.
03:10	Fossi	aught by computer virus octopodes
03:11	Fossi	there you go
03:11	Fossi	although i think pseudopodes is even better
03:11	Lajla	What's a pseudopod? An animal with incomplete legs?
03:11	Lajla	Platypodes is also nice.
03:12	Lajla	Or people that use plurals like mujihadeen and use the singlar 'talib' for one member of the taliban.
03:12	Lajla	And use tullaab when it's an Arabian member of the Taliban.
03:12	jartur	I like my octothorps.
03:13	Lajla	jartur, I think we should not longer use the word 'to program' but drop it in lieu of 'prographize'
03:13	Lajla	Or be really Icelandic and use 'to forewrite'
03:14	jartur	Though I have to admit that I don't know English that well. It's neither my native language nor a language of my surroundings.
03:14	Lajla	Might as well bring back the infinitives like forewriten.
03:15	jartur	And why do you need all these stupid articles like 'the' or 'a' which I never know how to place properly I don't know.
03:15	Lajla	jartur, I think this is more related to Greek than English, but as the second best programmer in the world I must make the impression of being very educated, which I'm not, I just make that impression well.
03:15	Lajla	jartur, slavic?
03:15	jartur	Lajla: yes.
03:15	Lajla	jartur, which?
03:15	jartur	Lajla: La Russe.
03:16	Lajla	All I can say in Russian is 'I am a paederast'
03:16	Lajla	I can even spell it in cyrillic, but that takes time.
03:16	jartur	Lajla: This is a very very important thing to know. Just don't ever use it when russians are around.
03:16	mmarczyk	are there any articles in Finnish?
03:17	jartur	Nope, I think
03:17	jartur	They don't even have prepositions.
03:17	jartur	IIRC 'finland' = suomi / 'in finland' = suomissa
03:18	jartur	Something like that anyway
03:18	jartur	They have lots of cases
03:18	Lajla	mmarczyk, nahh
03:18	Lajla	Well, in some dialects.
03:18	jartur	Their language is not even indo-european
03:18	Lajla	THey use 'se' (it/that/he/her) also as 'the'
03:18	Lajla	And yks (one) as 'a'
03:19	Lajla	Or well, depends, like, if you say 'olla tai ei olla, se on se kysymys' you use 'se' an article, as in 'to be or not to be, that is the quaestion'
03:19	Lajla	Without se it would sound like 'that's a quaestion' like 'that's a thing you could ask' or 'that's a problem you deal with'
03:20	Lajla	Not 'that's the thing you should ask'
03:20	mmarczyk	Lajla: from "they use" I deduce you're not Finnish yourself?
03:20	jartur	Well some words which to some extend approximate articles are used in most languages
03:20	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, no.
03:21	jartur	But they are more like what the and a used to be
03:21	Lajla	Actually, my Finnish is superb crap, but quote inhumanly good unquote when you realize that I learnt it from hearing my roommate talk to her mother on the phone.
03:21	jartur	Not 'put me in every time I don't know why' kind of words
03:21	mmarczyk	Lajla: ah, cool :-)
03:22	Lajla	mmarczyk, I simply lack a lot of vocabulary, but it's grammatical and I have a feeling for the language and it's quite fluend and accentless, I just don't even know what a car is in Finnish.
03:22	jartur	Lajla: perkele!
03:22	Lajla	jartur, saatanan kyrvä!
03:22	Lajla	kyrvät*
03:22	jartur	Suomi on suuri maa
03:22	jartur	And...
03:22	jartur	Kissa on valkoinen
03:22	jartur	Ei on musta
03:22	jartur	=))
03:22	Lajla	jartur, ei, on maa depressivalaisen kanssa, kaikki ja kaikkialla.
03:22	jartur	That's about my finnish
03:22	mmarczyk	oh good, I somehow managed to introduce Finnish to #clojure without speaking a word of it :-)
03:23	Lajla	mmarczyk, I thought you addressed me actually, because I some times speak Finnish here.
03:23	eevar2	ei saa peitaa!
03:23	mmarczyk	hm, I had a vague memory of "a mention of Finland", but that might be inaccurate
03:24	Lajla	I have no idea what verb sakaa or what it could be is or what verb peitaa is.
03:24	mmarczyk	so, you're the one to have performed the introduction then.
03:24	Lajla	mmarczyk, some one accused me of talking too much Finnish.
03:25	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, I am eager to talk Finnish, a bit too much perhaps, I enjoy the boring work of inferring linguistic patterns, any patterns really, this is because I am very autistic, but I make up for all this by being a good cook.
03:25	Lajla	mmarczyk, you are less autistic than I, surely because you are only fifth.
03:25	eevar2	"do not cover", stamped on ovens and such. probably missing some accents+++
03:26	Lajla	eevar2, google translate?
03:26	Lajla	Imperative negation is with älä, not ei, namely.
03:26	mmarczyk	I envy your cooking ability.
03:26	eevar2	nah, oven vendor translation
03:26	Lajla	Like älä päästä koskaan <- don't ever let go. From a very cheesy Finnish chickflick which I watched.
03:26	Lajla	Ahahaha
03:27	Fossi	:D
03:27	Fossi	suomi <3
03:27	eevar2	have that phrase in a dozen or so languages. try googling it ,)
03:27	Lajla	mmarczyk, I like to think that all people envy me in all ways, they want to hate themselves like I do, but they can never parallel my fantastic level of self-harm and nightmares, never be as great as I.
03:27	Fossi	i learned all my finish at the same time as my toki pona
03:27	Fossi	i mix them all the time
03:27	Fossi	they are pretty similar in some ways
03:28	Lajla	Fossi, oletko säkin suomalaista?
03:28	Lajla	Miksi, miksi, kaikki teitä on IRC:lla, ja mun kanavalla.
03:29	Lajla	The point about learning Finnish from listening to some girl who's lived in another country since she was two is that you gain the impression that you can just coin new words on the fly in Finnish from English and Dutch roots.
03:30	Lajla	Like, you think that 'internetti' and 'aipotti' and 'utrehti' are actually words.
03:41	cgrand	good morning #clojure!
03:42	Lajla	cgrand, mene pois tai puhu suomea.
03:42	Lajla	Tää on kanava joka on puhumaks suomea.
03:42	Lajla	cgrand, I'm just kidding.
03:45	Raynes	cgrand: Good morning.
03:45	jartur	cgrand: good evening
03:47	candera	cgrand: good whatever you call 3:45AM. :)
04:09	esj	Mroning All
04:14	LauJensen	Morning esj
04:21	Lajla	esj, terve, miten menee, on kaikki hyvää?
04:21	Lajla	onko
04:21	esj	Lajla: I'm going to go for, "make it a double"
04:27	Lajla	esj, I agree
04:28	Lajla	Shaken, not stirred.
06:53	korre	infoq relased an interview with John Hughes http://www.infoq.com/interviews/john-hughes-fp if anny one is interested :D
07:37	rhickey	so, if you needed symbols and letters to designate 64-bit integers and 64-bit floating point numbers, what would they be? taking a step back from the host words long and double (although they are candidates)
07:39	rhickey	It's kind of a shame int and float terms are bound to 32-bit on the JVM/CLR
07:39	rhickey	in a vacuum, they're probably what I'd pick
07:43	wlangstroth	rhickey: any objection to using something with "64" in it?
07:44	gregh	fixint?
07:44	rhickey	wlangstroth: well, 32 won't be an option. And the letter version might be used in places as well
07:45	gregh	too bad there isn't really a unified numeric tower where you can just call them "number"
07:45	jonasen	Z and R as in math?
07:45	rhickey	the letters might best be shortenings of the words
07:46	gregh	zinteger :)
07:47	wlangstroth	rhickey: for integers, "long" is difficult to beat
07:47	esj	ditto that for double
07:48	rhickey	wlangstroth: yes, l can be a problem as a suffix though, although mostly when i is also in play
07:49	wlangstroth	oh, I see what you mean now
07:52	axi	long=fat?
07:56	wlangstroth	how about "whole"?
07:57	esj	wide ?
07:57	wlangstroth	oh, right - you'd end up with "whole" as the integer, and "wide" as the float!
07:58	esj	not that clever, i was thinking wide_int & wide_float.
07:59	Licenser	cookies
07:59	wlangstroth	I was thinking in terms of rhickey's readable suffix problem
07:59	axi	but he wants unique letters for each type?
07:59	wlangstroth	wide is pretty good
08:00	axi	oh, he just wants them to be readable
08:01	Licenser	I'd go with long and double too, just my 2 cents, or int64 or somethinlike that
08:02	Licenser	I'm against R and Z since 64 bit numbers are not really much more R or Z then 32 bit
08:02	wlangstroth	Licenser: but there won't be a 32 bit option
08:03	Licenser	ah it is not opposite to 32 bit?
08:03	rhickey	right, the idea is that these are big enough to subsume all of the primitive integer and floating point primitives on the platform
08:03	esj	Licenser: agreed. it doesn't seem that long & double, are 'broken' so why change ?
08:04	rhickey	esj: if you were to design a language from scratch that had only 64-bit integers and 64-bit floating point numbers, would you call them long and double?
08:04	wlangstroth	double, no
08:04	wlangstroth	I've never been a fan of "double"
08:05	Licenser	actually I think their name, at least classically is host based, on a x64 system a C int is 64 bit (one register) when I remember right a long would be 128 ) two registers) or am I mistaken
08:05	rhickey	long and double only work as comparators to their shorter brethren
08:06	esj	rhickey: no, I'd call them int and real, but those terms are taken. Further, those using my language already have nouns that are familiar to them so it makes sense to use them.
08:06	axi	couldn't you implement int and float using a different case?
08:06	wlangstroth	exactly, but "long" isn't explicitly comparative
08:07	rhickey	wlangstroth: if there is only one thing, how to choose between long and short then?
08:07	esj	Licenser: I think you are correct in that.
08:07	esj	Licenser: certainly i've used C in an embedded context where the length of primitives varies.
08:07	rhickey	long doesn't say anything about numbers the way int does
08:08	wlangstroth	rhickey: I mean it's not "longer", but fair point. I'd say "integer", naturally
08:08	wlangstroth	... but as you say, "i" is taken
08:08	axi	then use num(ber)?..
08:08	rhickey	integer and floating
08:09	rhickey	?
08:09	cgrand	intnum and floatnum? bleh :-(
08:09	wlangstroth	integer and floating
08:09	Chousuke	hmh
08:10	esj	and its a visual pun.... very clojure.
08:10	Chousuke	too bad the host has taken the good names :(
08:11	rhickey	esj: just to be clear, I'm playing devil's advocate here to see if there's something better than long and double, which win by default
08:11	Chousuke	if you want to separate between "clojure" primitives and host primitives, it would be better to call host integers hostint or something but that would be a breaking change :/
08:11	esj	rhickey: :)
08:13	wlangstroth	Haskell has "Integral", but that's pretty close to "int"
08:16	wlangstroth	"floating" without "point" looks funny
08:16	wlangstroth	(okay, I've stopped being helpful - carry on)
08:20	axi	http://thesaurus.com/browse/integer
08:20	axi	it looks like the only alternative word for integer is digit
08:26	Licenser	rhickey: integer sounds not to bad, but floating sounds a bit odd, I'd percive it more as a value type that does some kind of floatin between places (a thread that can float between different hosts for example)
08:27	Licenser	what about fixednum for int, I know it's from the ruby world but it also kind of makes sense
08:28	axi	oh nvm, a digit would be a 4-bit integer =p
08:28	rava	hello
08:29	hugod	scientific - as in scientific notation?
08:36	cemerick	what likely Clojure host doesn't use long and double?
08:38	rhickey	cemerick: javascript
08:38	cemerick	heh
08:38	cemerick	rhickey: not exactly a reasonable source of a veto w.r.t. numeric anything :-)
08:38	cemerick	I don't know anything about LLVM, so that's a wildcard for me.
08:39	chouser	"fixed" and "inaccurate" -- f and i
08:39	cemerick	chouser: stop causing trouble ;-)
08:39	rhickey	cemerick: this is more of a what-if exercise. I agree any deviation from host is going to have use explaining the relationship between e.g. "integer" and ints and longs
08:39	rhickey	us explaining
08:40	cemerick	yeah, I saw your devil's advocate msg above. I guess my Q would be, why is long and double bad in theory?
08:40	rhickey	everyone is ok with long and double being the only supported primitives in fns?
08:40	cemerick	(aside from their being defined in terms of smaller numerics)
08:40	rhickey	cemerick: you would never choose them in a clean-slate design
08:43	cemerick	clean-slate or not, primitive numerics always have host limitations. Just by calling things int and float (for example), that wouldn't make 64-bit primitive maths appear in javascript, or in a 32-bit embedded environment. shrug
08:43	wlangstroth	beside the fact that it's going to bother me all day now?
08:43	wlangstroth	it's surprisingly hard to find accurate terms
08:46	Licenser	rhickey: whoat about just using int and float and then giving a special option to access the 'host version'
08:46	Licenser	so h:int or h:float
08:46	Licenser	while this might sound silly but it might be better suited when we deploy on multiple hosts
08:46	wlangstroth	with a colon?
08:46	Licenser	it is just an idea
08:47	wlangstroth	(oh wait, you're the @->-- guy)
08:47	Licenser	(<3 'clojure)
08:48	wlangstroth	haha
08:48	Licenser	when I stop waling funny I'll go and send rhicky the CA and some candy so he lets me put <3 in c.c!
08:48	wlangstroth	cemerick: but how close to the metal are we really talking in this context?
08:48	cemerick	wlangstroth: I understand "primitive" to be the unboxed (if relevant) numerics provided by a host.
08:49	rhickey	wlangstroth: all the way, to single instructions on chip
08:49	Licenser	What I see is that in java we might have doulbe and long, do we have it in .net? or javascript, or ObjC, or (I can go on here)
08:49	cemerick	rhickey: given that, the names have to correspond with whatever host you're targeting, no?
08:50	rhickey	cemerick: no, there will be one pair of names, and they'll map to whatever your host can do for 64-bit ints and floats
08:50	chouser	long and double were surely not intuitive when first introduced
08:50	rhickey	long and double work for JVM/CLR
08:51	rhickey	chouser: still a mystery of C
08:51	cemerick	rhickey: what about decimal in .NET-land?
08:51	rhickey	cemerick: not covered by this
08:51	candera	CLR int/long broke with the C/C++ tradition for that name.
08:51	rhickey	the point of primitives is to reach the hardware
08:52	rhickey	candera: followed Java in that
08:53	chouser	I'm not sure clojurescript would ever support primitives. Even if it did, it would have to map them to JavaScript types which show no sign of being unboxed ever.
08:53	Licenser	chouser: there are different js engines which might behave differently :P
08:54	rhickey	so, let's leave it at long and double for now. Is everyone ok with only long and double primitive support for fns?
08:54	chouser	if the unboxing or primitives are somehow automatic, then the clojure compiler need not worry itself with them. If not, declaring them would be a change to the language spec and that's exactly what I find unlikely in the forseeable future.
08:55	rhickey	chouser: ?
08:55	chouser	if the unboxing or primitives are somehow automatic in a particular JS engine, then the clojure compiler need not worry itself with them. If not, declaring them would be a change to the JS language spec and that's exactly what I find unlikely in the forseeable future.
08:55	rhickey	ah
08:56	wlangstroth	rhickey: expedience wins
08:57	cemerick	rhickey: you had a formal reason for not bothering with int and float, right? Overload counts, was it?
08:57	rhickey	cemerick: several. Simplicity, redundancy, no information loss moving up, combinatorics
08:58	rhickey	also the 64-bit ops are proving to be no more overhead
09:00	rhickey	but essentially, the smaller the footprint, the smaller the downstream overhead. This is a problem with e.g. CLR value types - they propagate complexity down the chain. It is easy to envision mapl, mapd...
09:02	rhickey	cemerick: so while you may look at this as a host thing, it really is not. It's about reaching the hardware. Not providing a mapping to every host lang data type
09:03	rhickey	e.g. most of the Java integer types are fictions - it has no bytecodes for things smaller than 32-bit
09:03	cemerick	rhickey: that's where I get fuzzy, just because I lose sight of things under my nose. Java's "primitives" aren't necessarily machine primitives
09:03	rhickey	cemerick: ^^ not even bytecode primitives
09:03	cemerick	right
09:03	cemerick	I'm not clear on that stuff at all. Mud, really.
09:06	Licenser	what about getting a license to use 'God wrote in Lisp' as clojurs theme song?
09:06	chouser	Clojure's not that kind of Lisp
09:07	Licenser	that does not matter, the song is cool
09:07	rhickey	the hardware's not written in or for Lisp, and we have to deal with that
09:08	cemerick	If I see one more "but it's not Genera"....
09:09	wlangstroth	cemerick: don't even
09:09	Licenser	what does Genera mean?
09:09	wlangstroth	a guy I used to work with would go off on that any chance he got
09:10	chouser	Licenser: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_%28operating_system%29
09:10	cemerick	wlangstroth: Oh, I won't! :-)
09:10	Licenser	way thank you chouser reads
09:10	cemerick	Licenser is going to be crawling ebay for a vintage model before COB.
09:10	cemerick	;-)
09:11	Licenser	cemerick: I have some cool old stuff already :P
09:13	wlangstroth	wait, Java's primitives aren't JVM bytecode primitives? I obviously have some reading to do.
09:13	dnolen	rhickey: so does this mean primitive support is on the table for 1.2 ?
09:14	cemerick	wlangstroth: I understood those things for about 3 weeks when I had to learn the details for some JNI work. Now it's all a muddle.
09:15	rhickey	dnolen: it's on the table with its guts hanging out :)
09:15	dnolen	haha
09:16	rhickey	this :static thing is bigger tha nprimitives
09:16	rhickey	than
09:17	dnolen	rhickey: yeah, I wasn't totally understanding the repercussions of :static ...
09:17	chouser	statics are still vars at compile time, right? their varness goes away at call sites?
09:18	rhickey	chouser: there will be vars, and they have IFns in them. But calls made by name through the var get inlined into static method calls
09:18	rhickey	name of the var
09:19	rhickey	IFn methods just call the static ones, so no bloat
09:19	chouser	ah, interesting. hense the non-closure restriction
09:19	wlangstroth	cemerick: ditto, except my exposure was in school
09:20	rhickey	chouser: right. I'm trying to make the one of the few. Today I'm adding support for variadics and recursive calls
09:20	rhickey	keyword callsites currently require 'this' as well, need to change that
09:21	chouser	keyword callsites as in (:foo bar) ...but surely bar needs to be an instance, thus 'this'?
09:22	rhickey	chouser: the callsite is in the caller of (:foo bar)
09:22	chouser	ah!
09:22	rhickey	so right now statics can't call (:foo bar)
09:22	chouser	got it
09:23	rhickey	surprisingly. not an issue for most of core. But variadics and recursion were
09:23	rhickey	unacceptable limits
09:38	AWizzArd	I spread lots of functions and records over several namespaces. Now I would like to offer my users one single namespace which they can require and in which they find all the functions they need.
09:39	AWizzArd	What is a good way to export my functions from the namespaces X, Y and Z into my public NS?
09:41	MrHus	AWizzArd why not use the ns macro and use :only
09:42	AWizzArd	Maybe I was not expressing clearly enough what I would like to do: I want that you can say: (require 'awizzards.ns :as wiz) and then you can call wiz/foo, wiz/bar and wiz/baz
09:42	AWizzArd	But the function foo actually sits in the namespace awizzards.ns.X while bar sits in a.ns.Y and baz in a.ns.Z
09:43	cemerick	AWizzArd: there's immigrate
09:43	AWizzArd	I want to export a public user interface of all Records, constants and fns into one namespace, so as if I would have put all my code into that ns
09:43	AWizzArd	,(doc immigrate)
09:43	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.ns-utils/immigrate;[[& ns-names]]; Create a public var in this namespace for each public var in the namespaces named by ns-names. The created vars have the same name, root binding, and metadata as the original except that their :ns metadata value is this namespace."
09:44	MrHus	(doc refer)
09:44	clojurebot	"([ns-sym & filters]); refers to all public vars of ns, subject to filters. filters can include at most one each of: :exclude list-of-symbols :only list-of-symbols :rename map-of-fromsymbol-tosymbol For each public interned var in the namespace named by the symbol, adds a mapping from the name of the var to the var to the current namespace. Throws an exception if name is already mapped to something else in the current name
09:44	cemerick	MrHus: refers are not visible to those that require the namespace that uses refer
09:45	djpowell	on other platforms what will 'long' be expected to map to? reminds me a bit of C99's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stdint.h
09:45	MrHus	cemerick Ok good to know
09:46	djpowell	ah, reading up, they'd be (at least?) 64-bit
09:46	AWizzArd	I could of course implement all public fns in my NS again and just call the real thing under the hood, but that would be an unnecessary indirection and would cost some performance too.
09:46	AWizzArd	It seems that immigrate is doing exactly this.
09:47	djpowell	C99 has int_fast64_t - which is basically at least a 64-bit int
09:48	AWizzArd	It would just be userfriendly if the users of my system could require this one public interface NS and find there everything they want, instead of having to require 8 NSs and have all the goodies spread over those.
09:51	MrHus	AWizzArd maybe its the users job to select the functions they need out of your library :P
09:51	chouser	AWizzArd: I've heard vague warnings from people who've used immigrate
09:52	chouser	AWizzArd: you're sure it makes sense to define a logically-single public api in a bunch of different namespaces?
09:52	AWizzArd	MrHus: technically that's right, it just is more comfortable to hide 95% of my internal fns and just offer the users a friendly public interface.
09:53	MrHus	AWizzArd how about defn-
09:53	AWizzArd	chouser: I can maybe just remove the different NS names from the files. My main idea was to spread logical function units into different files.
09:53	AWizzArd	MrHus: my code is full of those
09:54	AWizzArd	I don't know how strongly Clojures namespaces are bound to Java packages, but a system that would allow me to publish a public api would be nice.
09:54	chouser	I've generally experienced more pain from splitting functionality into too many files/namespaces than from combining too much into one.
09:56	AWizzArd	Yes, in principle I would just need one .clj file, though this could also work out as not too easy to manage, as well as having 250 small .clj files. A good mix may be the right thing.
09:56	MrHus	I think its a habit, you just get so used to one class per file. And you feel like cheating when you put many functions in one namespace / file.
09:57	chouser	until your file passes core.clj in size, you shouldn't worry.
09:57	rhickey	chouser: not the same for files vs namespaces, though, right?
09:58	chouser	Well, I guess I hardly ever use multiple files per ns, but right that's another option clearly demonstrated by core
09:58	AWizzArd	This is something that I could do.
09:59	chouser	core.clj is 5664 lines. All the core .clj files together: 7154
10:00	rhickey	the bootstrapping nature is somewhat unusual. You should be able to break most namespaces into multiple files easily
10:01	rhickey	nature of core
10:02	AWizzArd	Although core.clj then again is kind of a special case, as it wants to export everything, and most stuff in there is unrelated, whereas I have a good bit of code that I would like to hide per default from the user.
10:03	AWizzArd	But yeah, splitting one NS into multiple files and heavily working with {:private true} could be one solution.
10:03	rhickey	with :static, making a ns that exposes an enumerated subset of stuff from several other namespaces is a macro away, and no overhead
10:03	chouser	core has several private things, but I understand the ratio may be very different from your ns
10:04	AWizzArd	rhickey: that sounds interesting
10:04	rhickey	AWizzArd: but tedious, and still probably wrong
10:04	arohner	I find myself not splitting nses into multiple files because I find the (in-ns 'foo) at the top of the file much less readable than the (ns foo)
10:05	arohner	in the (in-ns 'foo) file, I don't have the list of what's been required imported, etc
10:06	chouser	hm. you can require and import as needed in each file, though I wonder to what extent that defeats the tooling support that the ns macro is trying to provide
10:07	arohner	chouser: yeah, maybe that's a job for slime, to tell me whats in my ns
10:09	chouser	are there any editors that color locals differently from var names?
10:09	chouser	I asked around a bit yesterday about making that work in vim, and if it's possible at all it'll be rather tricky.
10:09	arohner	slime sometimes colors vars differently, but I haven't figured out the strategy yet
10:10	chouser	I'm thinking specifically of (map ...) vs (let [map x] (if map ...))
10:11	arohner	chouser: no, slime doesn't do that
10:11	arohner	it appears it colors vars and macros from clojure.core differently from everything else
10:11	felideon	hello. quick question, since my Googling is failing me. could a Clojure app run on Jave ME / CLDC?
10:14	chouser	I don't think I've heard of anyone actually attempting that.
10:18	AWizzArd	Currently I would think that when I want to split one NS across several files that I will have to (load them) in my original one, where the ns declaration sits. Is that right?
10:19	AWizzArd	oh okay, core.clj is doing this too
10:25	felideon	chouser: thanks
10:31	AWizzArd	Is there a safe way to read the signature of a fn at runtime? I am not thinking about the :arglists meta data, as this can be changed.
10:31	AWizzArd	I am thinking more about something like introspection.
10:32	chouser	AWizzArd: Java reflection on the class, but of course that's an implementation detail that rhickey is busily changing at this very moment. :-)
10:32	AWizzArd	great
10:36	chouser	is there any way to insert line numbers into code generated by eval?
10:37	chouser	bleh, what a vaguely-worded question.
10:41	arohner	chouser: I think you'll get line numbers as long as the code was read with a line numbering reader
10:44	arohner	or you can assoc the line numbers on to the forms
10:47	AWizzArd	(defn foo [a #^Integer b] (+ a b)) and then (vec (.getParameterTypes (first (.getDeclaredMethods (.getClass foo)))))
10:47	AWizzArd	==> [java.lang.Object java.lang.Object]
10:47	AWizzArd	Any idea why the Integer did not end up in the result?
10:49	chouser	arohner: I do get line numbers, but stack traces point to the line where the eval was called, not to the line where the code that got sent to eval was built
10:50	chouser	AWizzArd: IFn instances only take Object args and always return Object
10:51	arohner	chouser: there's a small chance that might be caused by this bug: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/1c2687d40f9b1a6f/0abf8719450457cd?show_docid=0abf8719450457cd
10:51	chouser	rhickey: you're not saying Clojure will never support primitive fn args on closures, are you? Just not yet?
10:52	chouser	arohner: hm, good point. though this is a runtime error, so I'm not sure.
11:05	noidi	how can I check if an object is a (byte) array?
11:05	arohner	noidi: (class object)
11:05	noidi	[B
11:06	noidi	how can I pass that to instance? ?
11:06	noidi	,[B
11:06	clojurebot	EOF while reading
11:07	AWizzArd	,(instance (class (byte-array 0)) (byte-array 100))
11:07	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: instance in this context
11:08	AWizzArd	,(instance? (class (byte-array 0)) (byte-array 100))
11:08	clojurebot	true
11:09	noidi	isn't there a better way to get a hold of the array class?
11:10	chouser	,(Class/forName "[B")
11:10	clojurebot	[B
11:10	chouser	noidi: not really
11:10	chouser	that is, not that I know of.
11:10	AWizzArd	(def +byte-array-class+ (Class/forName "[B"))
11:10	yacin	i'm trying to profile some code. when i call the -main function, it profiles correctly
11:11	AWizzArd	And then you can refer to that constant.
11:11	yacin	but when i make an uberjar and run it, it doesn't work
11:11	yacin	any idea why?
11:11	chouser	I guess Java has special syntax for array type names
11:11	yacin	(call the -main function in the slime repl)
11:11	AWizzArd	yacin: you say it does not work. What happens when you try it?
11:12	yacin	(profile ...) doesn't output anything
11:12	yacin	my main looks like
11:12	yacin	(defn -main [& args]
11:12	yacin	(profile (doseq [pcap-path args] (run pcap-path))))
11:12	yacin	run has:
11:12	yacin	(prof :feature-vector (get-feature-vector pcap-path))
11:13	AWizzArd	Does the profiler need to be turned on during compilation? I don't remember if it is a macro which can be compiled away, depending on some flags.
11:13	yacin	in the function get-feature-vector, i have (binding [enable-profiling true] ... )
11:13	yacin	around the function body
11:13	yacin	but i figured it was something like that
11:14	yacin	so i thought i'd ask here
11:15	AWizzArd	I did not use that profiler for quite a long time, but instead typed "jvisualvm" in the shell and used what popped up.
11:17	yacin	i like having the profile code built in
11:17	yacin	hmm
11:18	noidi	thanks arohner, AWizzArd, chouser
11:18	noidi	I'll go with Class/forName
11:18	AWizzArd	But maybe it is no longer built in. Perhaps when you created the Überjar the profiler code was not included.
11:22	HerrBlume	Hello, I want to format a subnet mask, I have a list of the form ("255" "255" "255" "128")
11:22	HerrBlume	now i want dots betwen these values
11:23	AWizzArd	HerrBlume: better would be to have a look at http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/net/InetAddress.html
11:23	chouser	,(apply str (interpose \. [255 255 255 128]))
11:23	clojurebot	"255.255.255.128"
11:23	HerrBlume	ahh, thank you very much!
11:24	AWizzArd	Or: (require '[clojure.contrib.string :as str]) ... (str/join "." ["255" "255" "255" "128"])
11:24	AWizzArd	,(doc join)
11:24	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.str-utils2/join;[[separator coll]]; Returns a string of all elements in coll, separated by separator. Like Perl's join."
11:25	AWizzArd	,(join "." ["255" "255" "255" "128"])
11:25	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: join in this context
11:25	AWizzArd	urgs, str-utils2 :-)
11:25	AWizzArd	Btw, why was clojure.contrib.io renamed to clojure.java.io?
11:32	caljunior	I am having some troubled with circular references between namespaces.
11:33	caljunior	is it legal to have two namespaces refer to each other with :use?
11:34	caljunior	I have a gui namespace that initiates an event loop in a different namespace which in turn is firing table data updates to the gui tables.
11:36	caljunior	Cannot get these namespaces to load in the repl as either the event loop initiator isn't loaded yet or the table model.
11:37	chouser	loading a namespace changes the state of the namespace world, so order matters.
11:37	chouser	is there a reason you can have it all in a single namespace?
11:37	chouser	can't
11:43	AWizzArd	Is there a get -like fn that throws an Exception if the specified key is not in the map?
11:46	hugod	zakwilson_: thanks - fixed. I've also include osx keychain integration (if your on a mac)
12:01	caljunior	chouser: sorry for the delay. I can put it all in one namespace. was hoping to keep to be able to seperate it for clarity.
12:02	chouser	you can use two files but still a single namespace.
12:04	caljunior	ok, thanks.
12:07	HerrBlume	hello, i want to create an uberjar using leiningen
12:07	HerrBlume	if i start swank and load a namespace vie (require 'namespace.) it works fine
12:08	HerrBlume	but 'lein uberjar' complains about the name space missing
12:09	LauJensen	HerrBlume: Have you declared your namespace in project.clj ?
12:10	HerrBlume	ah...
12:10	HerrBlume	LauJensen: thank you
12:12	caljunior	chouser: works perfectly. thanks again.
12:12	chouser	caljunior: np
12:13	LauJensen	HerrBlume: If you get stuck there's at least 1 or 2 blogposts on my site (bestinclass.dk) which shows how its done
12:22	HerrBlume	LauJensen: i will look at it...
12:26	rhickey	recursive statics are alive
12:27	cgrand	yeah!
12:28	rhickey	so (fib 38) now 425 ms
12:28	chouser	heh. nice.
12:29	rhickey	would like to get rid of the need for these (long 1) (long 2) bits
12:30	chouser	have you heard from any heavy Incanter users about your ideas for handling of numerics? Seems like they'd by the most likely source of push-back.
12:30	rhickey	chouser: why would they push back?
12:30	chouser	if they expect auto-promotion and that changes
12:30	rhickey	they use doubles for everything
12:31	chouser	oh, ok.
12:31	rhickey	Incanter is Colt, so no BigAnything
12:31	cgrand	rhickey: weren't you considering reader support for primitives earlier? or was the suffix thing only for mapd and mapl?
12:32	rhickey	cgrand: It ends up reader support doesn't help. The reader must read Objects in any case. But given a Long constant, the semantic difference prevents me from treating it like a long
12:33	powr-toc	damn it... I'm getting another Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V (cookie.clj:1) error
12:33	technomancy	clojurebot: restfn?
12:33	cgrand	yeah thought of the boxing right after hitting [enter]
12:33	rhickey	to fix, the semantics would have to be unified on throw-on-overflow
12:33	clojurebot	ant clean and rebuild contrib
12:33	technomancy	clojurebot: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V
12:33	clojurebot	clojure is the best way to learn java
12:33	technomancy	~botsmack!
12:33	clojurebot	Owww!
12:34	rhickey	ad you'd have to ask for 2big to get bigint semantics
12:34	technomancy	powr-toc: you've got .class files AOT'd with an older version of clj
12:34	powr-toc	technomancy: does ring AOT?
12:34	clojurebot	technomancy is to blame for all failures
12:35	powr-toc	ahh wait.. lets try a mvn clean first
12:36	powr-toc	phew... it's gone... technomancy thanks for the clue... now onto my next error :-)
12:37	powr-toc	I'd forgotten I had some AOT'd namespaces
12:38	cgrand	rhickey: and I guess that wrapping primitives in new Number classes has too many consequences, too much complexity
12:38	rhickey	cgrand: right
12:45	powr-toc	LauJensen / cgrand : out of interest is there a google group for moustache?
12:48	cgrand	powr-toc: good idea
12:48	powr-toc	cgrand: I take that as being "shortly" :-)
12:49	powr-toc	cgrand: Is there a function that'll wrap a standard java servlet into a ring handler? I know you can turn a handler into a servlet, but I need the reverse
12:54	cgrand	powr-toc: http://groups.google.com/group/moustache-club
12:54	powr-toc	cgrand: awesome name!
12:56	cgrand	powr-toc: none that I'm aware of but you are the second person I hear asking for such a facility
12:57	powr-toc	cgrand: it'd sure be handy
12:58	cgrand	yeah but it involves mocking servlet objects (request, response, context etc.)
12:58	powr-toc	as without it I have to maintain effectively two routes... one in moustache (or compojure) and the other as some hand rolled jetty wiring :-\
13:01	powr-toc	cgrand: ouch... might you be able to use clojure protocols to wrap those types into a clojure.lang.Associative ?
13:02	HerrBlume	my project name includes a '-', and lein gets confused. The compile task assumes prefix-suffix. The uberjar task assumes prefix_suffix.
13:03	powr-toc	or would it be going the other way...
13:03	HerrBlume	May the project name not include '-'?
13:03	clojurebot	project euler is http://ProjectEuler.net
13:07	cgrand	powr-toc: I think the simple path is to build upon something like http://static.springsource.org/spring/docs/2.0.x/api/org/springframework/mock/web/package-summary.html
13:08	cgrand	no wrapping: copy data to/from servelt objects from/to ring maps at the boundary
13:12	powr-toc	cgrand: yes... interesting idea... I wish I'd discovered that API a few years ago
13:20	patrkris	am I the only one who hopes Clojure doesn't gain too much in popularity? I like having a secret tool :)
13:21	HerrBlume	patrkris: no, look at common lisp
13:24	_fogus_	dnolen: Thanks for the submission. :)
13:29	dnolen	_fogus_: no problem, nice post! Makes me want to write a Clojure.js ...
13:30	_fogus_	dnolen: Let me know and I'll submit it for you. ;-)
13:32	powr-toc	cgrand: btw... good call on allowing a single app call which works with middlewares!!! My big gripe with compojure was it's wrap call relied on mutation...
13:33	powr-toc	i.e. it would mutate the top level var... which seemed pretty nasty, and far less declarative
13:37	KirinDave	_fogus_: Charles Nutter must have shed a single tear when you talked about ruby.clj
13:37	KirinDave	"But what about jruby? :("
13:39	_fogus_	KirinDave: Oh man! I hate making him mad.
13:39	_fogus_	and sad
13:42	cgrand	powr-toc: it's all the def and redefing in Compojure that prompted me to write Moustache -- and the destructuring route syntax
13:43	powr-toc	cgrand: yeah... I gotta admit I found that part of it very frustating...
13:44	briancarper	power-toc: You don't have to use defroutes and wrap! in Compojure though, do you? Use (routes ...) and -> to do the wrapping and def the vars yourself.
13:44	powr-toc	cgrand: Though I quite like the sinatra style string syntax in clout... it feels very HTTP-like... more so than moustache... which feels less HTTPy and more Clojurey...
13:45	briancarper	s/power-toc/powr-toc, sorry
13:45	powr-toc	briancarper: thanks, I hadn't noticed that function
13:46	briancarper	defroutes is a very thin wrapper over routes. Though all the documentation uses defroutes and wrap!, so it's easy to miss.
13:48	cgrand	powr-toc: more "clojurey" is a design choice -- like I "clojurified" css selectors in enlive
13:48	powr-toc	briancarper: yeah... I found the whole 0.3.x -> 0.4 transition pretty confusing at first... and the fact the docs keep changing
13:49	dnolen	cgrand: are the routing vectors in moustache first-class like selectors are in Enlive now?
13:50	powr-toc	cgrand: absolutely... and it's obvious... so job well done! :-) It's just a comment, that superficially the clout syntax is more obviously routing HTTP than the moustache one... still I really like how flexible app is...
13:50	cgrand	dnolen: no, and they are binding forms so I won't be able to make them firstclass without changing the syntax or introducing an alternative syntax
13:51	cgrand	dnolen: do you have a usecase?
13:51	dnolen	cgrand: 1) gotcha 2) no :)
13:51	cgrand	phew!
13:51	powr-toc	cgrand: though I do find the number of equivalent syntactic varients staggering and potentially confusing... i.e. knowing whether or not two forms are semantically equivalent or not
13:52	powr-toc	so some guidelines on what each variation is for... and perhaps the idioms to use might be useful
13:52	cgrand	powr-toc: I confess I may have crammed too many things in one poor macro
13:52	powr-toc	cgrand: still, must've been fun :-)
13:53	cgrand	it was liek designing a swiss-army knife :-)
13:53	cgrand	like even
13:58	rhickey	variadics in statics now alive
13:59	scgilardi	let the retweets begin
14:00	rhickey	heh
14:01	powr-toc	rhickey: any idea on the time frame for 1.2.0 yet? (No rush - just curious)
14:02	dnolen	rhickey: so I'm taking it that statics will bring significant performance gains to the average Clojure program? (thus much bigger deal than primitive support :)
14:04	rhickey	dnolen: depends on what you are doing. potentially, yes. If you've ever (let [f f-in-a-var] ...) and it mattered, yes
14:52	cemerick	_fogus_: thankfully, your post's juice isn't killing my blog server today :-)
14:52	_fogus_	cemerick: Mine is just barely keeping up. I had to disable a bunch of plugins
14:53	cemerick	I got crushed yesterday, sadly. m1.small + cruddy old glassfish setup is not a good combo :-/
14:53	_fogus_	Your survey is going to inspire many a post. :-)
14:54	cemerick	Good. I did it (mostly) get people talking.
14:54	cemerick	I wonder how many people within the community are really going through the results, taking the comments to heart.
14:54	_fogus_	Not sure, but I know I am
14:55	kotarak	cemerick: vim maybe ranks second, because it supports syntax highlighting, auto-indent, code eval, dynamic highlighting, omni completion and the like since Q3/2008. The "big three" (ccw, enclojure, la clojure) catch up only recently.
14:55	kotarak	cemerick: But it think vimclojure's share will drop with wider adoption in the java world (which will boost the IDEs share, I would expect)
14:56	cemerick	kotarak: yeah, I'm sure it's a good env. I'm cursed with the prejudice that "vim isn't for lisps", etc. :-)
14:56	technomancy	kotarak: curious how you solve the "separate versions of clojure for vimclojure vs the projects running in it" problem.
14:57	technomancy	or is that not an issue?
14:57	briancarper	_fogus_, cemerick: Should've written your sites in Clojure, mine survived reddit+YC yesterday. :)
14:57	cemerick	briancarper: I just use confluence, poorly set up in an old build of glassfish.
14:58	_fogus_	briancarper: I'm one step ahead of you, but sadly too late for today
14:58	kotarak	technomancy: the solution is "no clojure". The clojure used in vc is mostly version independent. The few things, that are are caught be conditional includes. The one part which would require gen-class (hence introduce harmfal AOT compilation) is written in Java. So I cheat a little bit.
14:58	technomancy	handy
15:06	lpetit	kotarak, technomancy: congratulations for your great scores in the survey !
15:07	kotarak	lpetit: you, too :D I think, you will catch in the near future. With Clojure becoming adopted in wider range, the share of the IDE will increase.
15:10	lpetit	kotarak: there's also something I have in mind: I tend to think of emacs or vim users as "power user" individuals. Those individuals will certainly have catched the twitt or the email concerning the survey. I guess that maybe more classical "GIDE" users may not all be always reading the ml or following cemeric et a on twitter. So maybe there are even more users of graphical IDEs. Something...
15:10	lpetit	...like one person introduces clojure and one IDE in a company, surveys the language ml closely. And when he answers the survey, he is really answering for him and maybe 2-4 of his collegues as well :-p
15:11	lpetit	cemerick: we'll wait for the end of your new survey :-)
15:12	lpetit	cemerick: oh, damn. What if several people of the same company answer your survey ? Will you try to average the results given for a certain company (provided that it is possible at all to group the answers for a same company) ?
15:12	cemerick	FYI: we're now in production with DocuHarvest, a web application built using clojure, compojure, clutch, pallet, etc. http://bit.ly/9AvbUR
15:12	lpetit	or maybe create a Clojure Foundation :-)
15:12	chouser	lpetit: When answering the original survey, I passed it around at my company so others using Clojure could answer for themselves.
15:12	lpetit	cemerick: congratulations !
15:12	lpetit	chouser: don't break my dreams :)
15:13	cemerick	lpetit: thanks :-) Just getting started.
15:14	lpetit	cemerick: working full time on ccw for one year would be for sure a fun experience !
15:15	chouser	cemerick: docuharvest looks really interesting!
15:15	cemerick	thanks :-)
15:16	cemerick	lots of stuff in the pipeline
15:16	bobo_	ive read clojure in action / the joy of clojure, any point in reading programming clojure? want something on paper
15:17	briancarper	cemerick: Awesome idea. I wish I'd had that kind of service 2 years ago.
15:17	cemerick	briancarper: well, now you'll have it next time :-D
15:25	LauJensen	bobo_: Maybe, but I think the next logical step is http://conj-labs.eu :)
15:31	cemerick	ILC 2010 is in Reno? :-o
15:32	cemerick	oh, colocated with splash shrug
15:33	chouser	cemerick: was fun last time. Won't be going this time. :-/
15:33	bobo_	LauJensen: i agree! so come to stockholm! :-)
15:33	cemerick	Nor will I. Reno? :-\|
15:34	LauJensen	bobo_: You dont have that nice hotels in Stockholm :)
15:34	bobo_	sure we do! i guess, never been in one
16:14	silveen	hello, could anyone help me with a problem I'm been having? I've got a set of entities, and a painting thread trying to paint these entities, but the painter thread never seems to see them, if I copy and pase the exact same code to repl however they do show up. I'm using a ref for the set, what am I missing?
16:15	chouser	any agents involved?
16:16	silveen	yeah, an agent is running the rendering loop
16:16	silveen	aka the painter thread
16:16	rhickey	cemerick: congrats on docuharvest!
16:16	chouser	you're sure that loop is actually looping, and not stuck?
16:18	silveen	yes, I've got a little (println "I'm painting") just before the (for ..., if I put the same println expression inside the for, it doesn't spam
16:20	chouser	silveen: I can't think of any other common errors. Can you post the code somewhere so we can reproduce the problem?
16:20	chouser	preferrably as simple a version as possible
16:21	cemerick	rhickey: thanks :-) It actually made its debut at ClojureNYC, though it was in rough shape then :-)
16:22	rhickey	cemerick: I remember that, nice to see it go public
16:24	silveen	chouser: I'm not quite sure I got the meaning of reproduce there, but I've posted the interesting code here http://pastebin.com/SDYykHp4
16:26	chouser	silveen: I don't think #
16:26	silveen	Maybe I've misunderstood the entire thing (I'm new to this) with refs and agents, but isn't that supposed to set up a "shared state" between all threads?
16:26	chouser	(defstruct enemy (ref :health) :position :level :dir) does what you want
16:27	chouser	silveen: yes, values committed to a ref should be visible in all threads.
16:27	chouser	silveen: what you're trying to do sounds right, so it's just a matter of figuring out why that's not what's actually happening
16:28	silveen	yeah I've been trouble shooting this for a good hour now (learning syntax as I go)
16:29	chouser	,(let [enemy (create-struct (ref :health) :position :level :dir), e (struct enemy 1 2 3 4)] e)
16:29	clojurebot	{#<Ref@1fed553: :health> 1, :position 2, :level 3, :dir 4}
16:29	chouser	,(let [enemy (create-struct (ref :health) :position :level :dir), e (struct enemy 1 2 3 4)] (:health e))
16:29	clojurebot	nil
16:30	chouser	but I think the problem you're actually seeing is because 'for' is not an imperative loop
16:30	chouser	silveen: try replacing (for [enemy @horde] (do ...)) with just (doseq [enemy @horde] ...)
16:30	silveen	okey chouser, will try that :)
16:31	chouser	the reason it works at the REPL is because the lazy-seq returned by 'for' is forced in order to print it.
16:32	chouser	but in 'do-render' that lazy-seq is just thrown away, so it never does the work you want.
16:32	silveen	okey now I understand
16:32	silveen	it worked by the way, thanks alot chouser :)
16:32	chouser	you're welcome.
16:32	chouser	do see what I said about :health above. That defstruct isn't what you want.
16:33	chouser	And I'd recommend using a different name for the defstruct than for your locals. Using 'enemy' for both will hurt you later. You might use 'Enemy' or something for the defstructu
16:33	silveen	good point
16:35	chouser	Is this your first Clojure program?
16:36	silveen	yes actually it is, I've been fiddling a little in Java for a few years and heard about clojure about a week back, so this is all very new to me
16:36	chouser	silveen: well, it looks great so far. Welcome. :-)
16:37	silveen	thank you :)
16:37	chouser	silveen: thanks for using clojure-style indenting and formatting. much easier to help than if you didn't.
16:38	silveen	generally or in the pastebin? (I couldn't find clojure in their list of languages so I chose lisp)
16:39	chouser	in the pastebin. I see a lot of closing-parens-on-their-own-lines and such
16:40	chouser	so it's nice to debug perfectly-formatted code like this.
16:40	silveen	oh you mean you don't like seeing ))\newline)? yeah well it's difficult having matched curly bracers for so long, but I do try
16:49	silveen	chouser: about the :health issue, I don't fully understand it but I do see the problem, how should I go about creating a struct with a "thread safe" health value?
16:50	chouser	silveen: first of all, you probably shouldn't have a mutable value in there at all
16:50	chouser	will the enemy's position change?
16:51	chouser	it's direction? why treat health differently from those?
16:51	silveen	because towers will damage the monsters, while only the monster will change it's own position and direction
16:53	chouser	try to think about values separately from identities. An 'enemy' struct is a value, just like any of clojure's collection types -- you can compute a new value with various functions such as update-direction or accrue-damage
16:53	silveen	that way I was thinking I could do a (not sure about the exact syntax here) dosync commutative dec @health if (neg? @healt remove monster
16:54	chouser	you should do that, but you should do it for the whole enemy, not the health individually.
16:55	chouser	that is, the enemy should be stored in a reference object (ref, agent, whatever), and that's the mechanism through which all its value can be updated
16:55	silveen	ah okey, yeah that makes sense. I was thinking I could use smaller locks and avoid locking the entire enemy while he might want to move
16:56	silveen	because if I lock him like that, he basically stops moving whenever he gets damaged?
16:57	chouser	presumably there will be some kind of delay between updates in his position?
16:57	silveen	I wanted to avoid alot of failing transactions, "I can't move because I was damaged", but now that I think about it, that's not necessarily true
16:57	Chousuke	damage changes could be commutative.
16:57	chouser	but yes, if two threads try to change his state at the very same time, one of them will have to retry
16:58	silveen	yeah ofc there will be a sleep somewhere, you're right
16:58	silveen	yes Chousuke they will
16:58	chouser	silveen: you're right to be thinking about these things, but I'd recommend going for fewer refs and avoiding nested ones unless you actually see that it's a problem.
17:01	silveen	chouser: okey
17:01	silveen	thanks for all the tips and help by the way, I really appriciate it (it ain't being easy being new to things)
17:02	bmason	what's this mean? error in process filter, Wrong number of arguments: 0, nil
17:02	silveen	now that the painter seems to work fine, off to implementing the a* algorithm :)
17:02	bmason	that was in my slime status bar
17:03	chouser	silveen: We have a tidy little A* implementation in our book, though I'm not sure that chapter is public yet.
17:03	silveen	chouser: I found a pretty neat guide on the net already actually http://nakkaya.com/2010/06/01/path-finding-using-astar-in-clojure/
17:04	chouser	oh, actually it is -- chapter 6
17:06	silveen	chouser: what book? Might be good putting a bookmark before I forget
17:06	chouser	silveen: yeah, I saw that on etoo
17:06	chouser	silveen: http://joyofclojure.com/
17:07	chouser	it's not clear to me where the nakkaya.com one is examining paths in order of estimated total cost
17:07	chouser	but maybe I've just not read it carefully enough yet.
17:12	mmarczyk	chouser: he replaces old paths to any given square with new paths if their cheaper
17:12	mmarczyk	they're
17:13	chouser	ah, I see, he re-sorts the seq for each 'add-nodes'
17:15	mmarczyk	I wonder how this compares to a priority queue on larger maps
17:16	mmarczyk	I'm used to thinking of A* as essentially based on a PQ
17:32	chouser	mmarczyk: we used a sorted-set
17:33	chouser	O(log n) for inserts and removals.
17:33	chouser	a finger tree might be even better -- O(log n) insert, O(1) removal from front
17:33	mmarczyk	an "simple" sorted-set or a sorted-set-by ?
17:34	chouser	just sorted-set. Turns out sorted-set-by is often trickier to use.
17:35	mmarczyk	didn't mean that as a suggestion, I've yet to use sorted-set/map-by :-)
17:35	chouser	no, I mean I tried it but it turned out not to be useful in this case
17:35	mmarczyk	interesting
17:35	mmarczyk	so, do you maintain a "closed set" and an "open set", like nakkaya does with lists?
17:36	cemerick	I often wish sorted-set-by would continue to use equality to determine duplicates vs. the result of the provided comparator.
17:36	mmarczyk	if you're willing to disclose that -- otherwise I can wait for MEAP to catch up with you guys :-)
17:37	mmarczyk	cemerick: that seems to be brought up pretty often and is totally contrary to my intuitions
17:38	chouser	no, we don't have two lists. hm... what did we do...
17:38	mmarczyk	admittedly, these were formed in studying pure logic rather than data structure representations of sets.
17:39	cschreiner	what is a process-fitler in slime?
17:39	cemerick	mmarczyk: it makes total sense to me. Maybe that variant should be called a multiset?
17:39	mmarczyk	cemerick: I'm not sure which variant you're referring to :-)
17:39	cschreiner	it says: error in process filter: Args out of range: "(0) passed to: PersistentVector (slot.clj:0)", 14, 2
17:39	mmarczyk	riddochc: oh, cool
17:40	mmarczyk	cschreiner: does anything actually break for you?
17:40	cemerick	mmarczyk: where equality is relevant for duplicates, comparator used only for ordering
17:40	cschreiner	mmarczyk: it does not compile
17:40	mmarczyk	cschreiner: I get "process filter" msgs from time to time and just ignore them with no further trouble
17:40	mmarczyk	cschreiner: would you be using a particularly old or new version of swank-clojure?
17:40	cschreiner	totally fresh
17:41	mmarczyk	cemerick: ah, makes sense
17:41	cemerick	mmarczyk: the 'multiset' term, you mean?
17:41	mmarczyk	yup
17:42	cemerick	hrm, maybe I'll suggest it seriously then
17:42	mmarczyk	I distinctly remember this being brought up several times
17:42	mmarczyk	as a problem people were having with sorted-set
17:43	cemerick	eh, the formal definition of multiset doesn't jibe with what I'd like
17:43	mmarczyk	so you'd probably have some supporters :-)
17:43	cemerick	at least according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiset
17:43	mmarczyk	as a function X -> Naturals or something?
17:44	cemerick	yeah, multiplicity, etc.
17:45	cemerick	the point is not to count repeated values, but to ensure that members with the same sort order aren't treated as dupes
17:45	cemerick	consider indexing points along a single axis, etc.
17:45	mmarczyk	but
17:46	mmarczyk	what do you propose to do with things which compare as 0
17:46	mmarczyk	I can't say I've thought about this much, but at first glance I'm worried about e.g. bogus rebalancing
17:46	cemerick	if they're not =, retain them in order relative to the other members that are -1 or 1 of them.
17:47	cemerick	The order of members that compare as 0 would be undefined.
17:47	cemerick	I can't remember how I worked around this when I last needed it.
17:48	mmarczyk	then we could use sorted-set-by as a practical device to form total completions of any partial ordering :-)
17:48	mmarczyk	hm, then again not quite
17:48	mmarczyk	actually
17:49	mmarczyk	what's a zero supposed to mean
17:49	mmarczyk	coming out of (compare x y)
17:49	cemerick	mmarczyk: watch out, I don't know jack about math :-)
17:49	mmarczyk	docs say "x is equal to y"
17:49	mmarczyk	:-)
17:49	cemerick	shite :-)
17:50	cemerick	mmarczyk: where does it say that?
17:50	cemerick	,(doc compare)
17:50	clojurebot	"([x y]); Comparator. Returns a negative number, zero, or a positive number when x is logically 'less than', 'equal to', or 'greater than' y. Same as Java x.compareTo(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. x must implement Comparable"
17:50	mmarczyk	yeah, right here
17:50	mmarczyk	"logically" equal to
17:50	mmarczyk	whatever that means
17:51	cemerick	The docs for java.util.Comparator are interesting.
17:51	mmarczyk	so according to what you're saying, it would be convenient for comparators to implement total orderings on partitions of their domains
17:52	mmarczyk	then (compare x y) just means x and y both reside in the same block of the given partition
17:52	cemerick	(zero? (compare x y)), yes
17:53	mmarczyk	it can't possibly be a totally arbitrary partial ordering, e.g. with two two-element chain elements (members of either incomparable with members of the other one) + bottom + top it would break
17:53	rhickey	whew, adding :static to everything in core is a lot more work than the magic direct binding of clojure.*
17:53	mmarczyk	I mean break an attempt to construct a sorted-set-by with it
17:53	mmarczyk	rhickey: does this entail no (binding ...) for core Vars with no earmuffs?
17:54	rhickey	mmarczyk: that's already been the case for a while with direct binding
17:54	mmarczyk	right.
17:59	technomancy	rhickey: thanks for making the effort!
17:59	rhickey	technomancy: you're welcome, :static is coming soon...
17:59	technomancy	next time you could probably outsource the grunt work to the channel. =)
18:00	mmarczyk	I thought I had a rough idea of all the reasons why 1.2 is going to be awesome
18:00	rhickey	technomancy: I'm doing this myself in order to shake out any issues. If someone else did it they'd just be scratching their head when it didn't work :)
18:00	mmarczyk	guess I was to quick to jump to that :-)
18:00	technomancy	hah; right.
18:00	chouser	though we had a work-around by adjusting the metadata of the core var before compiling code that used it. Is that still the case?
18:01	technomancy	I think now it's opt-in instead of opt-out for clojure* only?
18:01	technomancy	(FSVO "now" which may actually be in the future)
18:02	cemerick	mmarczyk: turns out I did something along these lines: https://gist.github.com/2f6cb5c287bd15d3bd79
18:02	rhickey	chouser: I don't understand that
18:03	chouser	I blogged it! :-)
18:04	chouser	rhickey: http://blog.n01se.net/?p=134
18:04	mmarczyk	cemerick: but that means that if (zero? (compare x y)), (not= x y), you have both x < y and x > y according to your comparator
18:05	mmarczyk	cemerick: not sure if that is a cause for concern, maybe it's just me feeling uneasy...
18:06	rhickey	chouser: oh that. I can't promise any such hacking based on implementation details is going to work
18:06	cemerick	mmarczyk: in this case, yeah. I think I might have used a another comparison to establish a secondary sort order. As is, that should just make for undefined ordering of that partition though.
18:06	cemerick	mmarczyk: would you be worried about poor amortized perf?
18:06	chouser	rhickey: right, I'm just wondering if there is some other work-around available for :static
18:07	Raynes	Wasn't a function to get all permutations of a sequence moved to core not too long ago?
18:07	rhickey	chouser: call with #^
18:07	chouser	ok
18:07	rhickey	sorry , #'
18:08	mmarczyk	cemerick: exactly, but that's not to say I know or even necessarily expect that problems would arise... I'd like to check, though
18:09	mmarczyk	cemerick: also: ((conj (sorted-set-by funky-comparator [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]) [10 11 12] [13 14 15]) [7 8 9])
18:09	mmarczyk	funky-comparator comes from the third revision of your gist
18:09	mmarczyk	this evaluates to nil for me
18:10	mmarczyk	yeah, that's why I feel uneasy
18:10	mmarczyk	this breaks order-based lookup in the tree
18:11	cemerick	mmarczyk: interesting -- I was only ever using it to do traversals via subseq and rsubseq
18:11	cemerick	mmarczyk: I could always use (compare (hash x) (hash y)) as a secondary source of ordering ;-)
18:12	mmarczyk	yeah, but than you don't need a special kind of sorted-set-by
18:12	mmarczyk	since you're likely to have a total ordering anyway
18:13	cemerick	heh, no -- though this is a helluva wart in any codebase
18:13	mmarczyk	and if you might have hash clashes, then lookup will break in some other way
18:13	cemerick	that's what the ;-) was for
18:13	mmarczyk	:-)
18:14	mmarczyk	I wonder if a reasonable conclusion might be that we really could use finger trees :-)
18:15	cemerick	In practical terms, I always have other stable sortable attributes, so the seconary/tertiary comparisons don't impact any lookups (were I to do them)
18:15	cemerick	I can imagine that not being the case though.
18:17	mmarczyk	right
18:17	mmarczyk	at any rate, the comparator needs to be useful for deciding which branch to take when going down the tree
18:17	mmarczyk	a 0 would mean "umm, let's try both"
18:18	mmarczyk	so perhaps there's no escaping custom solutions for 0 not meaning "dupe"
18:18	cemerick	bleh
18:20	cemerick	mmarczyk: a fn similar to core/comparator that composed some number of fns in order to yield a final verdict on ordering would simplify things quite a bit
18:23	mmarczyk	like so? http://gist.github.com/432276
18:25	mmarczyk	argh, still doesn't work.
18:26	mmarczyk	(silly mistake, will fix)
18:27	mmarczyk	(updated now)
18:27	cemerick	yeah, like that, though if I were the only one using it, I'd reify an actual Comparator.
18:28	cemerick	mmarczyk: very nice :-)
18:28	mmarczyk	right
18:28	mmarczyk	thanks :-)
18:28	mmarczyk	oh, actually the first version was probably ok too -- I misapplied it later :-P
18:29	cemerick	I understand the convenience of having comparator take predicates, but the efficiency issues can be serious.
18:30	neotyk	where I can read more about :static?
18:30	mmarczyk	there are two version in the Gist now, one composing comparators, one composing predicates
18:31	mmarczyk	you could rewrite the first one to reify an actual Comparator of course
18:31	mmarczyk	neotyk: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
18:33	neotyk	I found few messages today, but doesn't really explain what is it
18:34	neotyk	ok, see a bit more yesterday
18:35	mmarczyk	cemerick: a reify-based version up now
18:35	mmarczyk	neotyk: you know, it's not yet available on GitHub
18:35	mmarczyk	not quite the stage where extensive documention is to be expected ;-))
18:35	neotyk	mmarczyk: but attracts interest already
18:36	mmarczyk	(multi-comparator: seems to work)
18:37	cemerick	mmarczyk: nice -- why not keep the reduce?
18:37	mmarczyk	neotyk: as well it should :-)
18:37	mmarczyk	cemerick: hm, not sure actually
18:37	mmarczyk	cemerick: might as well, now that you mention it :-)
18:38	cemerick	it's certainly prettier :-)
18:40	mmarczyk	yup, added a reduce-based version now :-)
18:41	mmarczyk	the reduction function could have a ^Comparator type hint on c and use .compare
18:41	mmarczyk	not sure there's much to be gained in that though...?
18:42	cemerick	mmarczyk: I'd add it so it doesn't matter whether you're using preds or java/reified comparators
18:42	mmarczyk	ah, good point
18:43	mmarczyk	updated
18:54	mmarczyk	darn, my Ubuntu box just crashed (!) :-(((
19:07	fanatico	Is case unable to dispatch off types/classes?
19:07	mmarczyk	$(case (class :foo) clojure.lang.Symbol :sym clojure.lang.Keyword :key)
19:07	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.MapEntry
19:08	mmarczyk	hm.
19:09	mmarczyk	ah, of course
19:10	Lajla	mmarczyk, what had you written first in C, a hellow world program, or understood the semantics of the string literal in source "Hello, World!"
19:10	mmarczyk	(eval `(case (type :foo) ~clojure.lang.Keyword :key :unknown))
19:10	mmarczyk	case has implicit quoting
19:11	mmarczyk	so the clojure.lang.Keyword in the version which doesn't work is treated as a symbol
19:13	mmarczyk	if you really wanted case-like dispatch for classes, you could write a macro to attempt to resolve symbols and if they happen to resolve to classes, replace them by those classes...
19:14	fanatico	mmarczyk: of course, thanks.
19:14	mmarczyk	np
19:14	mmarczyk	Lajla: well, let's see; I have written a hello world programme in C, but I'm not entirely sure that I understand the semantics of the string literal -- never spent enough time with C to think about it
19:15	mmarczyk	if forced to guess, I'd say sth like you did yesterday, I think... too late to be sure now that I've read it, though :-P
19:16	Lajla	mmarczyk, noooooo
19:16	lancepantz	does slime-auto-connect work with swank?
19:16	Lajla	mmarczyk, also, programme is a faux-french, a folk etymology if one likes.
19:16	Lajla	program comes from greek, not French.
19:16	cemerick	mmarczyk: that last version should go into contrib :-)
19:17	Lajla	It is a verbal noun of prographein, literally meaning 'to forewrite'
19:17	lancepantz	like if i ^d my lein swank process, and restart it, can slime reconnect automatically?
19:17	mmarczyk	cemerick: you think so? thanks :-)
19:18	cemerick	mmarczyk: have you filed a CA?
19:18	mmarczyk	cemerick: not yet, but I'd love to do that
19:18	cemerick	if not, do so, and yes, into contrib that should go
19:19	scottj	lancepantz: I run lein swank from a script that also tells emacs to reconnect slime
19:19	mmarczyk	cemerick: thanks for the encouragement :-)
19:19	mmarczyk	I think I'll do that
19:19	lancepantz	scottj: how does that work? a shell script?
19:21	alvatar	ohmygod!
19:22	alvatar	clojure has way more people than lisp and scheme!
19:22	scottj	lancepantz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111307
19:22	Lajla	mmarczyk, you'ren't going to defend your abuse of etymology?
19:24	scottj	lancepantz: I just updated it with sl5 from .emacs
19:26	lancepantz	thanks scottj
19:27	jartur	Lajla: Maybe he was using the french word?
19:28	mmarczyk	Lajla: programme is the British spelling
19:28	mmarczyk	Lajla: I can spell either way with my preferred way being consistent ;-)
19:29	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, not for the noun.
19:29	Lajla	Only for the verb.
19:29	Lajla	At least, not for a computer program.
19:29	mmarczyk	http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/programme
19:29	jartur	Lajla: J'ai ecrit un 'Hello world' programme.
19:29	mmarczyk	n. & v. Chiefly British
19:30	Lajla	I'd rather not abide to the idosyncracies of any groupa nd rather spell sensibly.
19:30	mmarczyk	not a Brit I take it?
19:31	Lajla	mmarczyk, most Brits spell computer programs as this though.
19:31	jartur	Lajla: Sensible English spelling... It's like an oxymoron or something.
19:31	Lajla	A programme is a programme of a festifal or whatever.
19:31	Lajla	jartur, I begt to differ.
19:31	Lajla	Spelling needn't per se be systematic with respect to sound.
19:31	Lajla	Can also be with respect to etymology.
19:31	mmarczyk	well, at any rate, you're free to follow your own aesthetic sense
19:31	Lajla	mmarczyk, but the point is that you're too.
19:32	Lajla	Instead of being forced to do as I tell you, who created this awful place? What have I ever done to you, God!
19:32	mmarczyk	I'm inclined to agree, in fact that seems to be what I'm doing :-)
19:32	Lajla	mmarczyk, wouldn't you rather serve me? Like Clojurebot?
19:32	Lajla	,'serve-Lajla
19:32	clojurebot	serve-Lajla
19:33	Lajla	,'I-worship-his-shadow
19:33	clojurebot	I-worship-his-shadow
19:33	jartur	Lajla: Lexx?
19:34	Lajla	jartur, on to me, aren't you.
19:34	Lajla	Worship me, my divine shadow, that is.
19:34	jartur	I stopped writing "Hello, World" programs some time ago. I always check with "Why, Hello!" now.
19:35	Lajla	I do 'Hello, Nurse!"
19:36	Lajla	jartur, this one is the coolest: (extend standard-import-port/line "Hello, World!"), not only because it's 8 times harder to understand than that C variant.
19:36	technomancy	"Hello, sailor."
19:37	Lajla	'h ': "ello, World!"
20:16	_rata_	hi
20:17	jartur	_rata_: Hello
20:21	rava	greetings
20:21	rava	(defonce server (run-jetty #'chdweb {:port 8080 :join? false}))
20:22	rava	could anyone tell me why that binding comes unbound after compiling and running in swank?
20:22	rava	i did it this way so i could (.start/stop ) the jetty instance, but i get a "symbol unbound" error
20:22	tomoj	are you in the right namespace?
20:23	rava	yes
20:24	rava	i'd C-c k the file, then in the slime repl i load up with swank-clojure-project /path/to/prj , i'd go into the namespace and try to do the start/stop in the repl
20:24	tcrayford	you tried using (var chdweb) instead of the reader macro?
20:25	tcrayford	(don't think that'll make a difference tho)
20:25	rava	nope
20:25	rava	the odd thing is that i was able to get it working that way once
20:25	rava	but i've not changed the code nor my init.el file
20:25	rava	so i'm at a loss
20:26	fjunker	I'm currently trying to install vimclojure 2.1.2 on Mac OS X Snow Leopard and I cannot build vimclojure.jar. Says there is an Unmatched delimiter in de/kotka/vimclojure/backend.clj on line 171
20:26	tomoj	rava: the error is that 'server is unbound?
20:26	rava	fjunker: yeah i've never been able to compile vimclojure
20:26	rava	fjunker: just grab the .jar file precompiled
20:27	fjunker	rava: I wonder how that one was compiled
20:27	rava	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var chdweb.server/server is unbound. (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:27	rava	[Thrown class clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException]
20:27	rava	funny thing is swank sees the var
20:27	rava	via tab completion in the repl
20:27	tomoj	oh, hmm
20:27	tcrayford	does it show up in ns-publics?
20:28	rava	{chdweb #'chdweb.server/chdweb, server #'chdweb.server/server}
20:28	tomoj	if server is unbound, defonce should bind it..
20:29	rava	if i try to run the defonce line again, i get an error that that port is already bound
20:29	tcrayford	is this for compojure?
20:29	rava	so an instance of jetty is running on that port
20:29	rava	yes
20:29	rava	i can gist the file, its not much
20:29	tomoj	well, you're going to have to kill your jvm I guess to get rid of the rogue jetty
20:30	tcrayford	I usually just run def the server from the repl, in the user namespace
20:30	rava	http://gist.github.com/432400
20:30	tcrayford	that way stuff still shows up when you reload whatever ns your app is in
20:30	tomoj	just curious, why "#'chdweb" instead of just "chdweb" ?
20:31	scottj	tomoj: so you can redefine chdweb
20:32	tcrayford	if your using compojure 0.4, use the wrap-reload middleware
20:32	tcrayford	s/your/you're
20:32	tomoj	I see
20:33	rava	the documentation is fairly sparse, am not aware of wrap-reload
20:33	tcrayford	if its 0.4, google for "mark watson compojure setup" and that should help
20:34	tomoj	that seems to use #'handler instead of wrap-reload :)
20:34	rava	tcrayford: thanks i shall
20:35	tcrayford	you still have to use a var somewhere, I think combining jetty with defonce is kinda eurgh at this stage
20:35	tomoj	oh, it uses both
20:35	tomoj	I had used defonce with run-jetty successfully once
20:36	tomoj	but I can't find it now
20:36	rava	i just checked out the compojure site and they have a funky line using future
20:36	rava	(future (run-jetty (var your-app) {:port 8080}))
20:36	scottj	rava: that's the same as :join? false
20:37	tcrayford	so it just puts the server on another thread?
20:37	rava	not sure, i'm still fairly newby myself :)
20:37	rava	ya pretty much
20:38	rava	pretty slick actually, that way i don't have to ever worry about that instance again
20:38	rava	just toss it at another thread, let it ref the ns var and go to town reloading at will
20:39	tcrayford	I'm debating atm wether to use 0.3.2 or 0.4 for a new app. Choice seems kinda hard
20:39	rava	see anything particularly tasty you want/need in .4?
20:40	scottj	tcrayford: I prefer 0.3.2 but since new extensions and features will be for .4 I deal with all the things I don't like
20:40	tcrayford	don't know enough about it I guess, I've used 0.3.2 in anger a lot though, so I'm pretty familiar with the api
20:40	rava	lol
20:41	rava	afk
20:42	tcrayford	think I might as well use .4, seeing as its the way forwards (ish)
20:44	rava	tcrayford: you'd eventually have to update to it anyway
20:46	tcrayford	yeah, its a decent point. Night all
20:46	scottj	rava: resolve your prob?
20:54	rhickey	it's alive!: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/prim
20:55	rhickey	:static, longs and doubles arg/returns
20:56	mmarczyk	!
20:56	mmarczyk	great :-)
21:03	dnolen	rhickey: :D
21:04	cemerick	rhickey: looks like it was a massive pile of work
21:10	Lajla	mmarczyk, are you an expert on lambda calculus and its theorems?
21:14	dnolen	rhickey: do you have a gist or paste of your fib example that shows the syntax?
21:20	livingston	I would really like to mapcon right now, but I don't know the equivalent function in clojure
21:21	scottj	livingston: mapcat?
21:22	livingston	I need mapcat but on each rest of the list (map and mapcat give you the first each time)
21:25	livingston	I guess I don't need the appending part of the mapcon I can do that myself with (mapcat ... (but I need a function here that gives me all the rests of a list))
21:29	dnolen	hmm, prim branch and swank-clojure 1.2.1 don't like each other much, complaints about ARef
21:32	ysph	(doc ->)
21:32	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
21:32	ysph	(doc ->>)
21:32	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
21:33	tomoj	livingston: dunno if there is already such a function, but
21:34	tomoj	,(take-while identity (iterate next [1 2 3 4 5]))
21:34	clojurebot	([1 2 3 4 5] (2 3 4 5) (3 4 5) (4 5) (5))
21:34	livingston	huh
21:34	livingston	that's better than what I came up with
21:35	livingston	I just recursively built up a vector of the rests
21:36	_rata_	has somebody used fnparse? i'm trying to do a simple work with it but am not getting it right (I get a stack overflow)... how can I debug it? is there a way to track what's going on?
21:50	dnolen	uh, prim branch Clojure just got injected with jet fuel, yowza
21:50	rhickey	dnolen: fib primitive example http://gist.github.com/432465
21:51	dnolen	rhickey: I note that (:foo bar) is crazy fast now, or am I just seeing things
21:51	dnolen	rhickey: thx
21:52	rhickey	dnolen: (:foo bar) hasn't changed, but there are a lot more inlining opportunities through core fns
21:53	tomoj	so what does ^:static mean?
21:54	rhickey	tomoj: a few things. First, calls made directly by name will be static method calls not going through the var. Also, static metods support long and double arg and return hints
21:56	dnolen	I'm seeing half a billion addition operations in about second. Bye bye boxing.
21:58	livingston	why can't I attach metadata to a string? that would be hugely valuable. I would have assumed meta just creates a container that wraps whatever... but I guess in practice that would be a real pain to code in everywhere,.. I guess that makes sense it's just a shame.
21:59	ataggart	livingston: clojure strings are java strings which are final. breaking that relationship would kill interop.
22:00	ataggart	well, ignore the second part, there may be a way to do it; but the first part is true.
22:07	silveen	question: I've got a vector of strings and I'd like to get the 2D coordinate of a certain character, any idea on how I could get that?
22:09	livingston	silveen: you need the version of some that returns an index instead of the item
22:10	livingston	and then call that on a string inside of a call to the same function on each string in the vector
22:10	herdrick	question: is there any thought of adding the type-based dispatch of defmethod to variadic fns? Or is that already possible?
22:10	livingston	(more or less)
22:11	livingston	herdrick: if I understand you question, I think it is...
22:11	herdrick	related question: is there a way to get type-based dispatch like defmethod in a lambda?
22:12	herdrick	livingston: oh?
22:13	livingston	well I have a pretty old version of 1.2 but your saying dispatch with functions of multiple args?
22:13	silveen	livingston: thanks for the pointer, however I can't seem to find any function that returns the index
22:14	livingston	silveen: you may need to write it by mapping on a counter to the string ... no wait there's a java string function that should get you the index in a string, right? use that
22:14	ataggart	,(.charAt "hello" 1)
22:14	clojurebot	\e
22:15	livingston	herdrick: I remember seeing commentary that it wasn't allowed, but I have a defmulti that disapatchs to various functions that take different numbers of arguments - and it seems to work fine
22:15	silveen	ataggart: the other way around tho, but thanks anyway :)
22:15	ataggart	ah
22:15	herdrick	livingston: dispatch with the same number of args, but different types.
22:15	herdrick	(fn
22:15	herdrick	([x] :int (foo x))
22:15	herdrick	([x] java.io.File (bar x)))
22:15	herdrick	oops!
22:15	ataggart	,(.indexOf "hello" \e)
22:15	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: indexOf for class java.lang.String
22:16	ataggart	,(String/indexOf "hello" \e)
22:16	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: indexOf
22:16	ataggart	what the...
22:16	ataggart	ah
22:16	herdrick	ok, with defmulti then? That's the fully general option I think. ?
22:16	ataggart	,(.indexOf "hello" "e")
22:16	clojurebot	1
22:16	herdrick	livingston: thanks!
22:17	livingston	herdrick: no I think you just have to make that into a multi
22:17	livingston	I may have missed the point of your question
22:17	herdrick	make what into a multi? this: (fn ([x] :int (foo x)) ([x] java.io.File (bar x))) ?
22:19	livingston	yeah reify the function (name it) and give it a dispatch function on type, then defmethod each
22:19	herdrick	ok - i was looking for something more succint
22:19	herdrick	thanks!
22:19	livingston	I know that will work - but I didn't realize what you were asking.
22:20	livingston	you can just use a cond if you need it packed into the same block
22:20	herdrick	yeah
22:23	TimMc	Is there a place I can download the Clojure API docs in HTML format?
22:25	dnolen	Clojure 1.2 is going to be crazeeee
22:25	dnolen	awesome
22:26	tomoj	TimMc: the gh-pages branch
22:27	TimMc	tomoj: Ah, much obliged. http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/gh-pages
22:28	TimMc	Now, why would it be a branch of clojure?
22:29	tomoj	so that it shows up at http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/
22:29	tomoj	and so that anyone who checks out the source gets the docs
22:29	TimMc	hmm
22:30	TimMc	It seems like an abuse of the concept of a branch. Then again, I'm fairly new to git.
22:31	tomoj	it's pretty common
22:31	tomoj	branches in git don't have to share any commits, they can be separate trees
22:34	Raynes	TimMc: Also, that's a github thing. Not a Rich Hickey thing.
22:34	TimMc	I guess it just offends my sensibilities or something. :-P
22:34	Raynes	;P
22:35	TimMc	This Rich Hickey fellow seems to have done a bang-up job.
22:35	TimMc	I'm very impressed by the language design.
22:39	tomoj	hear, hear
22:40	TimMc	(I've been watching the presentation he gave at some Lisp conference.)
22:40	tomoj	I imagine most language designers think hard about the choices they have to make
22:41	tomoj	difference is, rich gets them right :)
22:42	TimMc	Well, I'm not convinced about all the choices he has made, but I have yet to finish watching that presentation -- he might justify them to my satisfaction for all I know.
22:44	hiredman	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Towards-a-Universal-VM <-- "do what ever rich says, because he is normally right"
22:51	hiredman	,(doc doall)
22:51	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, retains the head and returns it, thus causing the entire seq to reside in memory at one time."
22:52	dnolen	rhickey: should map/reduce be slower on microbenchmarks on the prim branch?
23:04	_rata_	can anyone help me with fnparse lib? I'm trying to write a parser for simple aritmetic expressions
23:05	_rata_	and I could make one for extremely simple arithmetic expressions: one addition or one substraction
23:06	_rata_	but when I try to make one for multiples additions and subtractions, I get a stack overflow
23:08	_rata_	I have: (def digit-lit (lit-alt-seq "0123456789")) (def number-lit (rep+ digit-lit)) for number literals
23:09	_rata_	is there a pastebin for clojure?
23:09	tomoj	use any you like
23:13	_rata_	is there any pastebin with clojure syntax highlighting?
23:13	tomoj	gist
23:14	tomoj	pastie too Ithink
23:15	silveen	pastbin got a lisp mode which works kinda okey
23:17	_rata_	http://gist.github.com/432521
23:18	_rata_	with the commented code I got it right for just one addition or one subtraction
23:19	_rata_	but when I tried to make it work with multiple additions and subtractions it stopped working
23:20	tomoj	you probably need to remove the left recursion? I'm not sure, never used fnparse
23:21	_rata_	oh you are right
23:21	_rata_	tomoj, thanks :)