#clojure – 2010-06-02

2010-06-02

00:45	axi	so.. when using gen-class.. only functions listed for :init and :methods belong to the class? nothing else in the file?
00:47	cemerick	axi: and those methods inherited by superclasses or defined by implemented interfaces
00:48	hiredman	ok
00:48	axi	so.. how would I declare class-level variables like in java?
00:48	hiredman	(a double boating accident)
00:49	hiredman	damn it
00:49	hiredman	trying out split window irssi
00:50	axi	in one of the functions listed under :gen-class's :methods
00:50	axi	I have code like "(def text (new JTextArea))"
00:51	axi	and i'd like to be able to (. instance text append "bla") etc..
00:51	axi	but that doesn't work, because it looks like it gets destroyed when the function exits..
00:51	axi	so.. I need to give it class scope
00:51	axi	but clojure has no facility for that?
00:51	cemerick	definitions should (almost) never go within fns
00:51	cemerick	That's defining a new top-level var
00:51	axi	I can't find any examples for what I want to do..
00:52	cemerick	axi: you want to add all of the "class level variables" to a clojure map, and return that as the :state value from the :init fn
00:52	axi	what exactly should be in the init function?
00:53	axi	I see no documentation for it..
00:53	cemerick	look at the docs for gen-class
00:53	axi	I read it 20 times
00:54	axi	Must return [ [superclass-constructor-args] state]
00:54	cemerick	":init - If supplied, names a function that will be called with the arguments to the constructor. Must return [ [superclass-constructor-args] state]"
00:54	axi	Right now it's (defn -init [] [[] (atom [])])
00:54	axi	what do you propse I add to it?
00:55	cemerick	I don't know what your end goal is, but you can return [[] {:text (JTextArea.))]
00:55	cemerick	Then you can access the text area with (-> instance .state :text)
00:56	axi	how woudl I access it from an instance of the class?
00:56	axi	(. instance state :text)?
00:56	cemerick	just what I said
00:56	axi	oh, sorry
00:56	cemerick	no, (:text (.state instance))
00:57	cemerick	which is equivalent to (-> instance .state :text)
00:57	cemerick	have you gone through the examples @ http://clojure.org/compilation
00:57	cemerick	?
00:57	axi	hrm
00:57	axi	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
00:58	axi	looks like (defn -init [] [[] {:text (JTextArea.))]) doesn't work
00:58	cemerick	what's the base cause of the exception?
01:01	axi	other than the missing } and ) in wrong place.. idk
01:01	cemerick	are you subclassing something in the :gen-class?
01:02	axi	no
01:03	cemerick	paste your entire file somewhere, please
01:04	KirinDave	Hey folks
01:04	KirinDave	If I define a deftype in a given namespace, how do I make it from another namespace?
01:04	KirinDave	I go testspace/my-type and it doesn't find anything.
01:05	cemerick	(your.namespace.TypeName. a b)
01:05	axi	yay
01:05	KirinDave	Ahh
01:05	KirinDave	cemerick: Weird I am doing that
01:05	cemerick	axi: progress?
01:05	axi	cemerick, it works
01:05	axi	ty :-)
01:05	cemerick	nice :-)
01:06	axi	it looks like I have a lot of reading to do now though to understand why it works :P
01:06	cemerick	axi: gen-class has a lot of flexibility, but there's complexity that goes along with it. If you can use the newer defrecord/deftype stuff, then do so.
01:06	KirinDave	cemerick: http://idisk.me.com/dfayram/Public/Pictures/Skitch/blogpost.clj-20100601-220457.png
01:07	axi	k, i'll keep that in mind
01:07	KirinDave	Ahh
01:07	cemerick	KirinDave: kooky
01:07	KirinDave	cemerick: Actually, weird
01:07	KirinDave	Removing the constructor period works.
01:08	cemerick	KirinDave: you're using an older snapshot
01:08	KirinDave	I guess that's the trick.
01:08	KirinDave	cemerick: Am I?
01:08	cemerick	Indeed.
01:08	KirinDave	Did types get their funcallability removed?
01:08	cemerick	Yes.
01:08	cemerick	~3 weeks ago :-)
01:08	clojurebot	excusez-moi
01:08	KirinDave	Ah!
01:08	KirinDave	I never check my installed version
01:08	KirinDave	because lein always gives me one sealed for freshness
01:09	cemerick	heh
01:09	cemerick	KirinDave: I'll walk you through maven someday, if you haven't been. :-)
01:09	KirinDave	cemerick: I don't really understand it.
01:09	KirinDave	I mean I get the gist
01:09	KirinDave	but the specifics are greek
01:10	cemerick	it's cake, despite the groaning from the peanut gallery
01:11	KirinDave	Usually I have to surf maven2 by hand to find out if something is in there
01:11	KirinDave	Right there learning how to avoid that would be fantastic
01:12	cemerick	KirinDave: http://mvnrepository.com/ for starters
01:12	KirinDave	cemerick: It seems like sometimes I search for project names there and they don't show up, but they are on maven2
01:13	cemerick	well, that is a third-party mirror
01:13	cemerick	having a nexus repo (which proxies central and whatever other repos you're interested in) is a good thing
01:13	cemerick	as is having good tools (i.e. both netbeans and eclipse have in-IDE search that's worked well for me)
01:13	KirinDave	I am taught to fear nexuses by my magi overlords.
01:14	cemerick	But that's where all the power is... :-)
01:14	KirinDave	Yeah.
01:14	KirinDave	Well, you know how it is. With great power comes great fondness for wavy daggers and making apprentices clean up the laboratory.
01:14	cemerick	heh, right
01:14	KirinDave	As much as I want to bang out this blog post tonight, I'd better get to the gym.
01:15	cemerick	bed for me, later :-)
03:04	Borkdude	What is the best dynamic vs. static typing article out there?
03:04	KirinDave	Borkdude: Uh, depends on what you want to justify
03:04	KirinDave	Borkdude: Since many of the best languages take hybrid approaches, the issue is somewhat muddy now
03:05	Borkdude	KirinDave: let's say, for making clear to someone who always programmed Java and cannot imagina a dynamic language would work for a big project
03:07	KirinDave	Borkdude: The most obvious answer is to point to a lot of large projects that use dynamic typing and say, "See?"
03:08	bobo_	if php works in large projects with its crappy typing, every other type system works in a large project
03:08	turbofail	for certain values of "works"
03:08	bobo_	:-)
03:09	Borkdude	bobo_, I don't want to mention PHP :)
03:09	turbofail	though really, any decently run large project is really a composition of a bunch of smaller projects
03:09	Fossi	and for certain values of "large" :D
03:09	turbofail	thus, this whole "size" argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense
03:09	spariev	turbofail: judging by your inck, you do know what are you speaking about :)
03:10	Borkdude	what I like about Clojure is that you can just pick a small fragment and explore it in the REPL, but that isn't a dynamic typing property
03:10	spariev	nick*
03:10	KirinDave	Hmmm.
03:11	KirinDave	Can you use protocols to write a custom tostring for an object?
03:11	turbofail	spariev: all too much
03:13	Borkdude	Does Clojure support pattern matching like: (defn foo ([1] 1) ([2] 2) ([x] (foo (dec x)))? No, but maybe there is smth like this?
03:13	KirinDave	With matchjure
03:13	KirinDave	Which I think is going into contrib, right?
03:14	KirinDave	Yeah, last week it was announced that there'd be clojure.contrib.match
03:14	Borkdude	cool :)
03:16	KirinDave	You can get matchure right now tho.
03:16	Borkdude	KirinDave: does it support a pattern matched defn like I described?
03:16	KirinDave	Yes.
03:17	KirinDave	But it's more like plt-scheme's match-lambda stuff.
03:21	tomoj	what's the deal with ?foo in matchure?
03:21	tomoj	I can't figure out why it isn't just foo
03:28	Borkdude	gtg
04:23	LauJensen	Morning all
04:23	spariev	morning
04:30	Licenser_	aloa
05:42	SinDoc	How can we make one tail call and one recursive call in the same loop?
05:43	opqdonut	(defn f [x] (loop ... (f something) ... (recur somethingelse)))
05:46	SinDoc	Yeah but what happens to the arguments that loop receives? Loop will be initialized again.
05:47	opqdonut	you'll have to pass them in explicitly
05:47	SinDoc	Yeah, I guess that will work
05:47	opqdonut	you'll probably want to implement it with just plain binary recursion first
05:48	SinDoc	I don't understand why recur complains about a call not being a tail call
05:48	opqdonut	recur is a tool for constructing _loops_
05:48	opqdonut	if you have true recursion, you use the stack
05:48	opqdonut	as I said, start with binary recursion and loopify if it really is necessary for performance
05:49	SinDoc	I'm porting some algorithms from Scheme
05:50	SinDoc	trust me, you don't wanna mess with tail-calls there
05:50	opqdonut	ok
05:50	SinDoc	Thanks opqdonut I'll give it a try
06:48	LauJensen	lets celebrate with some xml!
06:48	esj	its been bloody
08:08	Licenser_	hmm how is the best weay to go when I need to call super in an object in clojure?
08:08	Licenser_	do I have to AOT for that? Since proxy does not seem to allow it :)(
08:08	chouser	you can use proxy-super
08:08	Licenser_	ah sneaky thanks!
08:09	chouser	note that's not thread-safe. :-/
08:09	G0SUB	chouser: is there an equivalent in terms of reify?
08:09	Licenser_	chouser: I do swing right now, nothing is thread save
08:10	chouser	G0SUB: reify doesn't to implementation inheritence, so there's nothing in super to call.
08:10	G0SUB	chouser: ah, right.
08:10	Licenser_	neat this woirks :D
08:11	Licenser_	I have a red swing t ree now!
08:29	spariev	just wondering, what exactly is dispatch performance difference between multimethods and deftypes/defrecords ? is it like orders of magnitude ?
08:30	Licenser_	when I create a new type, can I pass the constructor around as function? or anything else
08:33	Licenser_	I can't write new MyType
08:33	Licenser_	neither can I pass MyType.
08:35	hoeck	Licenser_: you can, but only with reflection
08:36	hoeck	Licenser_: better wrap your type-ctor in a fn
08:36	Licenser_	hoeck: okay
08:36	Licenser_	It didn
08:36	Licenser_	t work at all for me so I went with a fn already
08:37	hoeck	(clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor MyType 'a 'b 'c)
08:38	hoeck	no, its actually ( .... MyType (into-array Object '[a b c]))
08:39	Licenser_	yes bit I can
08:39	Licenser_	't pass MyType
08:39	chouser	much better to write your own ctor fn and pass that around
08:39	Licenser_	figured that, fixed it to do that
08:39	Licenser_	making funky swing trees is hard :P
08:42	Licenser_	hm problem is something else
08:42	Licenser_	if I 'use' a namespace I don't include the types
08:42	Licenser_	that is bleh
08:43	chouser	the types are classes, thus have to be imported instead
08:43	Licenser_	yap but I would have expected when using a namespace it automatically does that :P
09:31	Licenser_	hmm I find the import behaviour of types odd
09:43	patrkris	The nicest way to get all the elements from a vector v specified by the indexes in another vector a?
09:44	chouser	(map v a)
09:47	candera	Definition: "Clojure Factor" - the ratio of the length of some solution to a problem to the optimum one. Mine stands at something like 5. :)
09:49	arkahn	likewise
09:51	_fogus_	Definition: "Chouser Factor" - see "Clojure Factor"
10:03	esj	mine often goes infinite as I try to solve problems that don't actually exist.... ah well
10:08	rhickey	aargh! test_clojure.clj:87
10:11	arkahn	(System/exit 0) ?
10:11	cemerick	rhickey: ?
10:11	cemerick	is this hunt-for-the-real-line-number time?
10:11	rhickey	cemerick: yes
10:12	cemerick	A perennial favorite. I wonder if there's a real solution.
10:13	cemerick	(beyond clever stack trace analysis/printing)
10:13	rhickey	cemerick: fix the test library?
10:13	cemerick	rhickey: well, it's a general problem
10:13	rhickey	not really
10:14	cemerick	I'll show you some stack traces from compojure in conjunction with lazily-produced output sometime.
10:16	rhickey	a testing framework should be expecting exceptions in tested code
10:17	rhickey	it's generating that report, not a stack trace
10:17	Licenser_	hm hmm is there a way to 'filter' a hashmap?
10:17	Licenser_	say 'I only want the keys' X Y Z
10:17	cemerick	Licenser: select-keys
10:18	Licenser_	cemerick: thank you smart person!
10:19	LauJensen	Here's a nice idea for any Clojure-driven site: When referral spam or cross-site scripting attempts show up in the access.log, pass the IP tip iptables DROP list - problem solved forever :)
10:19	cemerick	rhickey: that's just clojure.test you're talking about? I'm seeing pretty good stack traces in a recent failed test. shrug
10:20	Licenser_	LauJensen: jes and no, it has to time out
10:20	Licenser_	since dynamic IP's might hurt an innocent person
10:20	Licenser_	I wrote a ruby script for something like that once
10:20	Licenser_	it blocked SSH brute force people
10:20	rhickey	cemerick: the stack trace is fine, but the first hing you see is a line from test, which knows the files but always prints the same line from test_clojure.clj - it's just wrong and useless
10:20	rhickey	[java] ERROR in (defrecord-object-methods-test) (test_clojure.clj:87)
10:21	cemerick	oh, ok -- yes, clojure-maven-plugin does the same thing
10:25	arkahn	LauJensen: also, punishes people who all share the same public IP(s). I work at a company of thousands of computers and a single compromised machine could trigger a server response for everyone here. But maybe that's acceptable.
10:27	LauJensen	arkahn: I trust people to get an email through to me if they get blocked. For certain nations (a certain nation) Im considering a nation-wide ban, and instead of blacklisting, do white-listing
10:31	eevar2	Licenser_: so you reimplemented fail2ban?
10:32	eevar2	unless you did it before fail2ban existed, of course
10:32	arkahn	LauJensen: blocking countries based on geo-location was talked about on Slashdot recently. One conclusion was that is was coarse and ineffective with things like botnets that disregard country boundaries. On the one hand, a person thinks 'well I don't need to receive traffic from X' but then a good blackhat wouldn't always originate from the same country (or their own country at all).
10:33	arkahn	LauJensen: just a thought
10:33	Licenser_	eevar2: I have no clue never heared of fail2ban :P
10:33	eevar2	the main threat is botnets, no?
10:34	LauJensen	arkahn: I think the good blackhats deserve to give it a go. But periodically I spend too much time blocking spam, in comments, in referrels, in emails, you name it. And if some region, country, useragent, whatever turns out to be 99.999% spam, then I think its a pure timesaver just to cut it
10:35	arkahn	LauJensen: if one region makes up that much of the bad behavior, I can see it then.
10:35	eevar2	Licenser_: look it up next time you want to stop ssh brute force attacks, neat software
10:35	eevar2	i'm sure there are tons of similar apps, tho
10:36	LauJensen	eevar2: When launching a linode, you get ssh attacks almost immediately, change to an alternate port and something like 80% goes away.
10:37	arkahn	LauJensen: if enough people did that with their servers, I bet you'd get greater ISP or government pressure to fix their problems from within ; )
10:37	Licenser_	my latest spam is from china
10:38	arkahn	does (send-off agent #'fnname) send off an anonymous agent ... or, er, 'agentify' the function call?
10:38	LauJensen	arkahn: why would you think so ?
10:39	eevar2	LauJensen: but that's security by obscurity! ;) -- i guess it doesn't really hurt as an additional layer of protection, tho
10:39	LauJensen	eevar2: right, the second move is to disallow password auth
10:39	arkahn	LauJensen: if enough servers did that, it would impact business and money, the prime motivator for companies and governments.
10:40	LauJensen	Licenser_: its mad, I get (got) weekly emails saying "We are a China based" and then whatever they were selling that month. Do they honestly expect me to hire them after sending me 50 or so offers?
10:40	LauJensen	arkahn: oh ok, thought you were referring to the alternate port - but I hear you
10:40	LauJensen	I guess we should just get busy and build that 'ring of trust' internet :)
11:19	arkahn	will the next release of clojure be 1.1 or 1.2?
11:20	cemerick	1.2
11:20	cemerick	1.1 was released on 12/31/2009
11:20	arkahn	cemerick: palm-on-forehead, thanks
11:32	bartj	is there a better way to get the index of a seq which satisfies a function?
11:32	bartj	than this:
11:32	bartj	(defn get-index [f x] (loop [i 0] (if (f (nth x i)) i (recur (inc i)))))
11:33	chouser	indexes and seqs don't go together very well. Are you sure you need an index?
11:33	bartj	hmm, I need the index of a seq/collection which satisfies a function
11:33	bartj	chouser: also, I am curious why you say so
11:34	KirinDave	bartj: Because seqs can often be infinite
11:34	KirinDave	bartj: Which sorta defeats the point of an index. ;)
11:34	bartj	KirinDave: thanks!
11:34	TimMc	bartj: And return nil if not found, I suppose?
11:35	chouser	accessing seqs by index and getting indexes from seqs will always be O(n) -- usually there's a better way.
11:35	chouser	bartj: what will you use the index for, once you have it?
11:36	KirinDave	bartj: If you use clojure.contrib.seq-utils, you can use (indexed initial-seq) to lazily annotate every entry with an index. Then you can write your predicate to use the second argument. But listen to chouser, what you're asking might be inherently a bad idea.
11:37	bartj	KirinDave: point noted
11:38	bartj	chouser: a function returns a lazy sequence, and I wanted to know the index of the sequence which satisfies a given property
11:39	KirinDave	bartj: Why is the index relevant?
11:39	chouser	yes, I understand. once you have this index, what do you intend to do with it?
11:39	KirinDave	Is it corespondent to a line number, perhaps?
11:39	bartj	KirinDave: honestly, this is a programming problem from Project Euler
11:39	KirinDave	oh.
11:40	KirinDave	Haha, don't publish your times. ;)
11:40	KirinDave	I see what you're doing, but don't expect meteoric performance out of it. )
11:40	chouser	ah, well if the index is the final output, then getting it is of course acceptible.
11:40	KirinDave	chouser: "there was no step 3." :D
11:40	chouser	:-)
11:41	bartj	what would be the best way possible way then?
11:41	chouser	in your example, x is a vector?
11:41	bartj	no, a lazy sequence
11:41	chouser	ah, then (nth x i) is a bad idea. Again, that's O(n)
11:41	KirinDave	bartj: It's an approximation of some iterative computation that you've broken into steps.
11:42	TimMc	So... at each step you are generating the next value, then checking a property of it.
11:42	KirinDave	Which euler project?
11:42	chouser	and since it's in a loop, O(n^2)
11:42	KirinDave	chouser: I think he's scanning through linearly as he goes, discarding previous values.
11:42	KirinDave	chouser: I don't think he'd have to fetch.
11:43	KirinDave	Oh wait, your code doesn't do that. :D
11:43	bartj	KirinDave: 25
11:43	TimMc	Seems to me you're better off with a (loop) that recurs on the index and current value.
11:43	chouser	(keep-indexed #(when (f %2) %1) x)
11:44	bartj	TimMc: you mean this: (defn get-index [f x] (loop [i 0] (if (f (nth x i)) i (recur (inc i)))))
11:45	KirinDave	bartj: Chouser is saying you shouldn't use nth.
11:45	KirinDave	bartj: And he's right. Do not use nth.
11:45	TimMc	bartj: Nah, just do your fibonacci calculation in the loop, and your checking.
11:45	TimMc	Not sure what the point of using a sequence is here.
11:45	hugod	should I be able to add a field to a defrecord at the repl by re-evaluating the defrecord?
11:46	chouser	It's ok, and probably good, to decouple the different parts. A fibonacci seq is reusable.
11:46	TimMc	bartj: You can keep your last two fibonacci numbers around as loop parameters (or whatever they're called) as well as the fibonacci index.
11:46	chouser	hugod: I think so
11:46	TimMc	chouser: Decoupling... good point.
11:47	TimMc	bartj: Ignore me, chouser knows hwo to do this in a way more appropriate to clojure. :-P
11:47	KirinDave	bartj: So what you want is a sequence of numbers from your indexed sequence that meet some predicate.
11:47	KirinDave	bartj: We can easily add the index with (indexed seq)
11:47	KirinDave	bartj: We want to filter based on your predicate
11:48	chouser	hugod: you can, but existing objects of the record type may behave a bit oddly.
11:48	KirinDave	So to start, say that predicate is your predicate and it's (fn [[index val]] ...)
11:48	KirinDave	Then you'd say (first (filter predicate (indexed (my-lazy-seq))))
11:48	KirinDave	That'll return you a 2-vector, [index value]
11:48	hugod	chouser: doesn't seem to work for me on the latest snapshot - the constructor isn't redefined
11:49	KirinDave	Note that even if your sequence infinite, first only takes the first value
11:49	bartj	KirinDave: is the solution to add an index to the seq?
11:49	KirinDave	bartj: What I described is by far the least code for you to write, and it keeps the O(n) property you wanted.
11:49	KirinDave	Honestly that'll actually be faster than 90% of the entries on euler if it involves fibb numbers, most people don't have O(n) implementations of fibb finders.
11:50	KirinDave	There is a reason there isn't the equivalent of ruby/python's collection.find, because lazy collections already solve the problem.
11:50	chouser	hugod: hm, works here. I'm on 878dea8 from May 28. I'll update
11:51	chouser	bartj / KirinDave: did you see my keep-indexed solution?
11:51	chouser	er
11:51	chouser	hugod: sorry, completely wrong version number.
11:51	bartj	chouser: I am having difficulty understanding what keep-indexed does
11:52	chouser	bartj: it takes a fn and a seq, and calls the fn on each item of the seq until the fn returns something truthy. It then returns that truthy thing.
11:52	KirinDave	chouser: I did. I think the (first (filter ..)) has didactic value here, but yours would be what I use in practice.
11:52	hugod	chouser: I'm on clojure-1.2.0-master-20100602.140300-81, whatever that translates to...
11:53	chouser	sorry, call the fn with the seq item and its index
11:53	KirinDave	chouser: I try and keep the predicates simple when people are learning about seq munging.
11:53	chouser	KirinDave: I didn't say anything until you said your solution was least code. :-)
11:53	bartj	chouser: and also returns the seq item and the index?
11:53	KirinDave	chouser: I meant less than his. :D
11:54	KirinDave	bartj: No.
11:54	chouser	bartj: no, keep-indexed returns just the value the your fn returns.
11:54	KirinDave	bartj: It returns a lazy sequence. So like filter, you need to handle it with kid gloves.
11:54	KirinDave	Haha, just call exit in your predicate ;)
11:54	KirinDave	DONE!
11:54	chouser	oh!
11:54	chouser	you're right, I needed (first ...) as well. sorry.
11:55	KirinDave	chouser: I like the "call exit in your predicate solution"
11:55	KirinDave	It's so very c-ish
11:55	chouser	:-P
11:55	TimMc	Naw, you should segfault to stop execution.
11:55	KirinDave	;)
11:55	TimMc	Everyone else is doing it!
12:08	cemerick	has there ever been a broad survey of from where people came to clojure? I seem to remember chouser doing one some time ago, but can't find it now....
12:17	lpetit	cemerick: a long time away from coding java in a client ; then discovering new langages (new for me) : SmallTalk, common lisp, scheme, Haskell. Not finding anyone that could be used in practice. Then find clojure. Stop the search. :-)
12:17	cemerick	lpetit: :-)
12:17	cemerick	I've got a 5-question google form almost done. This'll be interesting.
12:17	lpetit	s/in a client/at a client/ ?
12:17	sexpbot	lpetit: Format is sed [-<user name>] s/<regexp>/<replacement>/ Try $help sed
12:19	TimMc	${preposition} a client
12:19	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
12:20	lpetit	cemerick: one thought out of my mind. I've remarked that I'm not "staying with clojure" for exactly the same reasons I "came to clojure". I discovered that clojure had much to offer than what I thought initially (basically, I thought I had find a way to "rule them all" by having a language with macros. It's only later on I understood the virtues of the way clojure mixes FP and state management)
12:20	lpetit	cemerick: so maybe you could have a question "wy do you stay with clojure", also ?
12:20	cemerick	that's a complicated question, deserving a complicated answer :-)
12:21	lpetit	:)
12:21	_fogus_	I would love to see a Clojure-centric "Hammer Principle" site
12:21	chouser	lpetit: me too. I came here only for macros+interop
12:22	_fogus_	But that's probably just me
12:23	_fogus_	cemerick: http://therighttool.hammerprinciple.com/
12:23	_fogus_	Obviously structured differently
12:23	cemerick	ah
12:23	cemerick	_fogus_: it's also a martial arts concept, apparently
12:23	lpetit	chouser: :) . BTW, just bought your ebook today ;)
12:24	_fogus_	Interestingly, Clojure does very well on the annoying syntax question - http://therighttool.hammerprinciple.com/statements/this-language-has-an-annoying-syntax
12:25	technomancy	_fogus_: because it's only rated by people who actually know the language. =)
12:25	_fogus_	technomancy: I suppose there is a flaw in the "choose the languages you know" aspect. :-)
12:31	cemerick	heh
12:31	cemerick	it's alphabetized and I can't change the order, so it's done :-P
12:31	cemerick	when I do State of Clojure, Winter 2010, I'll take suggestions
12:33	bsteuber	does anyone know how to write EOF or make (read) stop somehow using slime?
12:49	cemerick	Can I get a smattering of problem domains to add to the survey? e.g. Math / analytics, gaming, web development, network programming, etc etc
12:51	chouser	device drivers, process scheduling, memory cache hit optimization
12:52	chouser	er, wait.
12:52	cemerick	dammit, chouser, do you have a native Clojure backend that you're not sharing? :-P
12:52	chouser	:-)
12:52	chouser	p;/-p;/9ik,m786890p-------------------~
12:52	cemerick	sly, cheeky bastard chouser is ;-)
12:53	bartj	__fogus__: Regarding that link - http://therighttool.hammerprinciple.com/languages/clojure, shouldn't "Ranked highly in" and "Ranked Low in" mean "advantages" / "disadvantages"?
12:54	bartj	__fogus__: if yes, how come verbosity is shown as a disadvantage!
12:59	bartj	KirinDave / chouser: thanks for the help before, I had to rush out before...
13:04	Licenser_	does anyone know how I can force a swing jtree to update a certain path/node or itself entirely?
13:04	TimMc	bartj: The problem is that not all statements can be classified cleanly as "positive" or "negative".
13:09	cemerick	OK, any thoughts before I post this?
13:09	cemerick	http://spreadsheets.google.com/embeddedform?formkey=dDVXY0ZfWlNfdXl0TW43S3dJcTFvU1E6MQ
13:11	LaPingvino	hello
13:12	TimMc	cemerick: "if using at work" needs a third option
13:12	cemerick	TimMc: which is?
13:12	TimMc	Should be "Are you using Clojure at work? : No ; Yes, endorsed ; Yes, secretly"
13:12	TimMc	Most browsers do not let users unclick a radio button set.
13:13	cemerick	yeah, OK
13:13	TimMc	(Also, people will abandon a survey if they think they can't answer one of the questions & think it is required.)
13:14	cemerick	thanks, changed
13:15	cemerick	any other feedback? Going once, going twice...
13:17	TimMc	hrm
13:17	mabes	cemerick: it might be interesting to take an editor survey as well..
13:17	TimMc	Wording on primary langauge is a little weird.
13:17	TimMc	Previous primary, or last language used on a project?
13:20	cemerick	mabes: yeah, good.
13:20	cemerick	Probably the last question I'll add. Don't want the thing to fall over.
13:21	bartj	cemerick: is it possible to have a "grid" of check boxes instead of a very long list for the question - "If Clojure disappeared tomorrow, what would you use as a "replacement"?"
13:21	cemerick	bartj: I looked, and it doesn't appear to be possible.
13:22	cemerick	it'll be the last question, so as to not scare people away
13:23	mabes	cemerick: it might be interesting/worthwhile to distinguish web application development from web services development... I'm willing to bet more people use clojure more for APIs than for sites.
13:24	bartj	cemerick: perhaps include a question on the documentation? not sure what though...since blogs serve as the most important "documentation" right now for me.
13:26	cemerick	mabes: those are some fine hairs to split, insofar as a lot of people do both
13:27	mabes	yeah, it is probably fine as is
13:28	pedroteixeira	hello, anyone knows if there is a version of compojure works with clojure+contrib 1.2-master?
13:28	bartj	most of the questions seem inclined towards - "where" are you using Clojure? not sure if the title is apt...
13:29	jfields	if I'm in a function is there a way to print the name of the function that called me? (or the entire call stack?)
13:29	cemerick	bartj: that's a little bit of the point, no? Where is clojure being used, and where did its users come from, etc.
13:32	mabes	jfields: perhaps trace could help: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/trace-api.html
13:32	rhickey	, (map str (.getStackTrace (Thread/currentThread)))
13:32	clojurebot	("java.lang.Thread.getStackTrace(Thread.java:1426)" "sandbox$eval__8474.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)" "clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5343)" "clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5311)" "clojure.core$eval__4350.invoke(core.clj:2364)" "hiredman.sandbox$cond_eval__4040.invoke(sandbox.clj:76)" "hiredman.sandbox$eval_in_box_helper__4065.invoke(sandbox.clj:112)" "hiredman.sandbox$eval_in_box__4070$thunk__4073.invoke(s
13:33	mabes	or that :)
13:33	jfields	rhickey, mabes: thanks
13:36	rhickey	jfields: in nested clojure calls, .getClass of the stack trace element is pretty useful:
13:36	rhickey	(defn foo [] (map #(.getClassName %) (.getStackTrace (Thread/currentThread))))
13:36	rhickey	(defn bar [] (foo))
13:36	rhickey	(defn baz [] (bar))
13:36	rhickey	(baz)
13:36	rhickey	("java.lang.Thread" "user$foo" "user$bar" "user$baz" "user$eval128" ...)
13:37	jfields	rhickey, cool. that was what I was looking for. thanks.
13:38	rhickey	np
13:42	riddochc	rhickey: has my contributor agreement arrived?
13:43	rhickey	riddochc: haven't looked at the box in a few days, will soon
13:47	bartj	cemerick: Tracing your Clojure Beginnings - A Survey
13:49	riddochc	rhickey: Then it's probably there. Thanks. I look forward to helping out with stuff.
13:53	KirinDave	pedroteixeira: It doesn't work?
13:57	pedroteixeira	KirinDave: thanks.. it is actually congomongo the problem. thought was compojure. testing between over 5 forks out there in clojars now :)
13:57	KirinDave	pedroteixeira: Just use the main one.
13:58	KirinDave	Don't mess around with the forks, they're often weird
13:58	jfields	(I'm working with some legacy code...) Is there a way to access private fields of a java object instance?
13:59	pedroteixeira	KirinDave: my team members (used to java) are finding it difficult to choose which version to pick from clojars. the problem is congomongo and the new contrib json now.
14:00	pedroteixeira	KirinDave: the main congomongo does not accept "sort" in the fetch function.. only rads` seem to.
14:00	TimMc	cemerick: Is the survey "public" now?
14:00	cemerick	TimMc: yes: http://twitter.com/cemerick/statuses/15267220072
14:00	cemerick	and posted to the google group
14:02	hugod	cemerick: can we see the results?
14:03	cemerick	hugod: I figured I'd keep them wrapped until I close the form. Seems like it's just begging for gaming.
14:03	hugod	:)
14:03	cemerick	like, all three emacs users writing scripts to drive up the counts! ;-)
14:03	cemerick	:-D
14:03	mabes	jfields: I've never needed to do that, but I believe that is what wall-hack-field and wall-hack-method are for: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/java-utils-api.html
14:04	mabes	,(doc wall-hack-field)
14:04	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.java-utils/wall-hack-field;[[class-name field-name obj]]; Access to private or protected field."
14:05	TimMc	Awesome name.
14:07	jfields	mabes: thanks
14:08	bartj	cemerick: "state of clojure" form duly filled in
14:09	cemerick	bartj: thanks much :-)
14:10	cemerick	mabes, jfields: the wall-hack fns there are actually deprecated I believe, moved here: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/reflect-api.html
14:11	mabes	yeah, so depending on what version of clojure you are on.. for 1.1 use java-utils, but for 1.2 use the ones in reflect
14:11	mabes	well, version of c..c
14:12	jfields	cemerick, mabes: cool, thanks
14:13	chouser	,(first "\n")
14:13	clojurebot	\newline
14:13	chouser	,(second "\newline")
14:13	clojurebot	\e
14:14	chouser	riddochc: how about that for "most glaring"? :-)
14:15	LauJensen	cemerick: I think question #3 should be "In which domains are you using Clojure", correct?
14:15	riddochc	chouser: Yeah, that one's pretty weird.
14:16	riddochc	Back later. Have fun clojuring.
14:18	cemerick	LauJensen: Yup, that'd be more correct. Will fix.
14:18	rhickey	cemerick: where are the results?
14:21	cemerick	rhickey: I figured I'd keep them closed for a while, anyway -- seems like a starting gun for gaming things
14:21	rhickey	cemerick: ok
14:23	zakwilson	http://gist.github.com/418631 <-- I'm having trouble getting full performance out of a quad-core machine. I got some interesting feedback on the google group, but no closer to my code running faster on four cores than two.
14:24	bartj	is it possible to have some sort of rating system for libraries on clojars like search.cpan.org for perl modules
14:25	KirinDave	bartj: maven?
14:27	bartj	KirinDave: eg: http://search.cpan.org/search?q=xml;s=0 (I almost immediately know to use XML::Twig for parsing xml files) based on the rating
14:33	zakwilson	I'm not sure how to answer some of these Clojure survey questions when I'm working on something that I intend to make a startup out of, but currently isn't anything that formal.
14:40	cemerick	zakwilson: yeah, I'd call that "at work", commercial product/service
14:41	islon	is there raw strings in clojure? or do i have to escape every double quote?
14:44	TimMc	zakwilson: But be honest...
14:46	chouser	islon: escape all double-quotes, unfortunately
14:46	chouser	or read it from a file of course
14:47	cemerick	mmm, a perennial wish-list item
14:47	islon	ok, i'll use a file
14:47	TimMc	Are there LISPs with heredocs?
14:48	islon	a reader macro would be good
14:58	cemerick	TimMc: I'm sure there's a CL reader macro somewhere for them. c.c.strint is the closest there is here.
14:59	rubydiamond	hi guys..
14:59	rubydiamond	is Clojure, an object oriented programing language
15:00	rubydiamond	I read Clojure is not Object Oriented ..
15:00	rys	lol
15:00	cemerick	rubydiamond: this is a subject of great debate :-)
15:01	cemerick	you can create Java objects from clojure, and you can define new Java classes in clojure
15:01	rubydiamond	cemerick: but that is not clojure right
15:01	cemerick	rubydiamond: sure, it is
15:01	cemerick	(defrecord Foo [a b]) defines a new class with two fields
15:02	rubydiamond	cemerick: but Clojure is functional language right
15:02	rys	I think the ability to interact with Java doesn't make it an OO language by any means. You could choose never to do so, by design
15:02	nDuff	rubydiamond, LISPs are traditionally so flexible you can define your choice of object systems within them.
15:02	nDuff	rubydiamond, ...and this is no different with Clojure.
15:02	cemerick	rubydiamond: indeed
15:02	rubydiamond	rys: that's what I meant
15:02	cemerick	rubydiamond: it's probably most important to not get tied up in the semantics of "object oriented" and "functional", etc.
15:03	rubydiamond	omg, defrecord for class
15:03	cemerick	or deftype or gen-class -- each with different capabilities and interop knobs
15:04	nDuff	rubydiamond, ...see for instance CLOS, the Common LISP Object System. I'd argue that whether the existance of CLOS makes the question of whether Common LISP is object oriented irrelevant; you can write OO code with it, or you can choose not to do so, as appropriate for your situation.
15:05	rubydiamond	btw if I know Lisp.. does it mean.. that I can learn Clojure faster
15:06	_fogus_	Was it chouser who said, "Clojure is not object-oriented, but oriented around objects"?
15:06	cemerick	that's nice
15:06	cemerick	rubydiamond: you'll certainly have a leg up on a lot of concepts
15:06	chouser	yes, but not enough faster to warrant learning Common Lisp, unless you have some other reason to do so.
15:08	rubydiamond	chouser: "Clojure is not object-oriented, but oriented around objects" lol
15:17	rys	I guess it is short sighted to equate OO with imperative programming against mutable state
15:17	zakwilson	I'd point everyone toward SICP, which uses Scheme if they haven't already worked through it. Of course, SICP + Clojure will take longer than Clojure by itself.
15:17	zakwilson	Allan Kay would consider that a mistake, rys.
15:17	rys	Yeah
15:18	rys	I hang my head for the 'lol'
15:19	mebaran151	well OO is usually just about mutable state
15:19	zakwilson	His idea of what OO means has more to do with message passing than anything else. Clojure's reference types support a form of it.
15:19	mebaran151	at least simula 1 style
15:22	zakwilson	None of this matters much though. Clojure is what it is, regardless of what you call it.
15:22	cemerick	yeah, like I said, it's probably most important to not get tied up in the semantics
15:45	hugod	chouser: I found my defrecord problem - an aot class file in the classpath - defrecord silently fails in this case
15:45	chouser	hm.
15:52	islon	to the guy who made the clojure.contrib.sql: why not create a "with-query-result" or "with-single-result" to return a single result? its a pretty common pattern
16:14	mebaran151	Did anyone ever do real OO style programming with just closures in Clojure?
16:15	Licenser	cookies!
16:15	mebaran151	where instance variables were stored as locals?
16:16	mebaran151	I played with writing a couple macros, that now seem to have been subsumed into defrecord. Other than Java interop, what would have been the disadvantages of representing as objects in terms of functions?
16:16	lancepantz	i've seen it done in other lisps, but not clojure
16:17	mebaran151	that's probably because other lisps didn't have easy built-in hashtables
16:17	KirinDave	mebaran151: They don't?
16:18	mebaran151	I'm assuming, because very function compiled to a class, this method probably woudl be just as fast as defrecord and deftype, except with much worse names and therefore worse dispatching
16:18	mebaran151	not with builtin syntax, like in Clojure
16:18	KirinDave	mebaran151: The protocol-based dispatch is much faster than the generic dispatch.
16:18	KirinDave	mebaran151: Yeha, well most code did use that syntax tho
16:19	KirinDave	it just wasn't in the standard.
16:19	KirinDave	I think nearly everyone did something like: http://frank.kank.net/essays/hash.html
16:19	KirinDave	We don't get reader macros in clojure, unfortunately.
16:20	mebaran151	oh I didn't know
16:20	KirinDave	Yeah
16:20	KirinDave	Scheme and Common Lisp allow for reader macros
16:20	mebaran151	I don't know about scheme, but I know sbcl had defstruct
16:20	KirinDave	So basically you can really have any syntax you wan
16:20	KirinDave	You could make an algol reader macro ;)
16:21	KirinDave	So I think it's also true in sbcl
16:21	mebaran151	I never actually was able to use any lisps for serious programming before, so the most I did was dabble before Clojure
16:21	KirinDave	But defrecord/deftype are making distinct types to dispatch upon.
16:21	KirinDave	If you use a function to do it, that works, but it doesn't have any type system stuff and thus loses a bit.
16:21	mebaran151	well assuming you didn't redefine it at the REPL, would you dispatch on a function type, though the name is really nasty?
16:22	KirinDave	But that wouldn't be terribly helpful to the compiler.
16:22	mebaran151	and maybe write some macros to work with it like a java object
16:22	KirinDave	Both SBCL and Clojure can do a hell of a lot more if you use defined objects rather than fns or hash tbales.
16:22	KirinDave	The compiler and jits can actually make things equivalent to offset in C in the best case. SBCL frequently does this
16:22	mebaran151	I'm not saying it should be done, I'm just saying it was theoretically possible
16:22	KirinDave	Yes
16:22	KirinDave	Have you read the scheme paper?
16:23	mebaran151	which?
16:23	KirinDave	The original sussman one, i think
16:23	KirinDave	Closures and Objects are equivalent
16:23	KirinDave	But offer different perspectives with different optimization potential
16:23	mebaran151	I think I learned the style from the SICP, and was reminded from some blog post in recent memoryy
16:24	mebaran151	well you could never make mutable closures right?
16:24	Licenser	aloa my lispy friends!
16:24	mebaran151	locals have to stay local
16:24	KirinDave	I don't understand your question
16:25	KirinDave	And you could make mutable closures in clojure
16:25	mebaran151	in standard oop, usually field mutation is take for granted
16:25	KirinDave	It need not be
16:25	KirinDave	But yes, in common lisp fields in a clojure are mutable.
16:26	KirinDave	Setf will rebind a local just as well
16:26	mebaran151	in a closure?
16:26	mebaran151	ah I didn't know not
16:26	mebaran151	*that
16:26	KirinDave	There is a book, "let over lambda"
16:26	KirinDave	You should check it out.
16:26	KirinDave	if you can successfully finish 2 chapters in that book, ANY two, you will be a better lispologist than most people.
16:27	gregh	I have that book, it's kinda neat
16:27	KirinDave	it's the most insanely dense macro book imaginable
16:30	mebaran151	I really do a need a good macro-fu book
16:30	KirinDave	That book is the fu book
16:31	mebaran151	one of my coworkers is a macro machine, but he came from computational ling, so it was expected
16:31	_fogus_	LOL is amazing
16:31	_fogus_	It will melt your mind
16:31	mebaran151	I often has to spend a lot of unpacking his stuff
16:32	mebaran151	heh, skimming, it looks like a real tome of a macro book
16:36	tomoj	LOL is a book/
16:36	tomoj	?
16:37	mebaran151	http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl << it's got an ISBN
16:41	Licenser	_fogus_: I bought JoC the other day :) great book!
16:41	tomoj	and VIP codes? O_o
17:11	raek	when is it idiomatic to use 'rest' and 'next'?
17:12	arohner	raek: when you need to
17:12	arohner	raek: sorry for the sarcastic answer. Do you think you're in a situation where it's un-idiomatic?
17:12	islon	next: when testing (if (next coll) stuff other-stuff)
17:12	raek	what I wonder is which should I use?
17:12	islon	next is test-friendly (returns nil on an empty list)
17:13	raek	yes, I know about next calling seq on the result
17:13	raek	so it becomes nil if it empty
17:14	islon	(next [1]) => nil
17:14	raek	I've seen next being used outside tests
17:15	raek	but that was in clojure.core
17:15	raek	maybe rich just replaced all rest calls with next calls when these things changed
17:16	raek	could one consider 'rest' to be the standard choise when nil-on-empty doesn't matter?
17:18	programble	anyone else interested in CSS support in Hiccup?
17:22	ysph	programble: a clojure CCS lib would no doubt be useful, what's the reasoning behind including it within hiccup? just that html and css are strongly coupled?
17:22	programble	yes
17:23	programble	http://github.com/programble/hiccup
17:23	programble	i added in CSS rendering
17:23	programble	and it seems a little too small to stand as its own project
17:23	programble	its only about 20 lines of code
17:30	onkara	hi Guys ... I am having hard time configuring clojure REPL shell with command history and tab completion functionality
17:30	onkara	could anyone please point me to a resource that can help with this ... FYI i am on ubuntu-lucid
17:31	hiredman	dunno about tab complete, but rlwrap will get you history
17:31	onkara	and whats the best way to save the code snippets (that have been tested in a shell) to a file
17:32	cemerick	onkara: most good environments (emacs/slime, netbeans/enclojure, and eclipse/ccw) all provide completion
17:33	programble	emacs/slime is great
17:33	arkahn	we need the clojure equivalent of ipython ; )
17:34	technomancy	I think the CLI integration is bad on purpose in order to convince you to get your editor set up more quickly.
17:35	arkahn	it's not a bug, it's a feature, huh? ; )
17:36	onkara	cemerick: ccw is counter clock wise plugin the one hosted at code.google.com ???
17:36	programble	emacs/slime/swank ftw
17:37	Licenser	I'd like to ask if someone could look at some small function ( http://gist.github.com/423027 ) it is meant to find the key that changed in a hash-map (so the lowest when there are multiple changes that holds all of them)
17:37	Licenser	I know it's not optimized I am just looking for correctness or total stupidity
17:40	KirinDave	Licenser: For starters, do arg validation in pre and post
17:41	KirinDave	Licenser: It'll be way clearer
17:42	TimMc	CCW is pretty grungy.
17:42	KirinDave	Licenser: Secondly, wouldn't a quick first check be to compute the hashcode for each of the maps and compare? You could save a lot of work.
17:44	hiredman	I think pre and post conditions only run when a certain var is bound
17:44	KirinDave	hiredman: ?
17:47	hiredman	clojurebot: git commit 0ac482878a1dd520cbee2faa0f5f6ab1082ffa76
17:47	hiredman	clojurebot: git 0ac482878a1dd520cbee2faa0f5f6ab1082ffa76
17:47	clojurebot	:pre and :post conditions as metadata on arglist, or map following arglist conditions are predicate exprs in a vector return value of fn is bound to % for :post (defn foo [x y] {:pre [(even? x) (< x y)] :post [(> % 3)]} (* x y)) add assert, default true, when not true asserts are no-ops assert is bound in repl
17:48	hiredman	so if you always want to validate you can't use :pre and :post
17:48	Licenser	KirinDave: I think = does the hash code stuff
17:48	Licenser	and I'm not sure what you mean with arg validation
17:49	hiredman	(I'm assuming you mean :pre and :post when you said pre and post)
17:49	ataggart	(defn constrained-sqr [x]
17:49	ataggart	{:pre [(pos? x)]
17:49	ataggart	:post [(> % 16), (< % 225)]}
17:49	ataggart	(* x x))
17:49	Licenser	but I don't want the function break when it is not a map
17:50	ataggart	from http://clojure.org/special_forms
17:50	hiredman	ataggart: yes, and those will only run if assert is true
17:50	hiredman	which it is at the repl, but not other places
17:51	ska2342	Hello. Can someone tell me how I can access the docstring of a method defined in a defprotocol? I only see the doc metadata in the map that is the protocol itself. I'd expect `doc' to just work.
17:52	hiredman	huh
17:53	hiredman	looks like the default value of assert is true
17:53	hiredman	or root I should say
17:54	ataggart	hiredman: the deeper question is whether such checks are properly assertions or input validation. For the latter a different mechanic would be used
17:55	ataggart	assertions should be disableable (is that a word?)
17:55	hiredman	well, input validation ittself is a loaded term
17:55	ataggart	true
18:16	cemerick	onkara: yes, ccw is counterclockwise @ google code
18:17	timcharper	can lazy seqs eagerly load in a separate thread ?
18:17	timcharper	(do they?)
18:18	timcharper	building a somewhat-long stream pipeline, and would be super sweet if each step of the pipeline could be processed simultaneously
18:20	technomancy	timcharper: you could use futures, but it's not transparent.
18:21	timcharper	ok, willing to abstract here
18:21	timcharper	how would I go about abstracting a lazy seq to eager load using futures ?
18:22	technomancy	timcharper: just wrap your calculation in (future [...]) and deref it when you want to use it. easy peasy.
18:23	timcharper	ah... so that won't cause the whole lazy seq to load all at once because lazy-seq only reads a few ahead ?
18:23	mebaran151	any tips on setting up a slime environment that can connect to both sbcl and clojure proper?
18:24	timcharper	mebaran151: A) first, use technomancy's starter kit. B) add the proper swank dep to your project using lein
18:25	timcharper	oh... A2) install swank-clojure from ELPA (via m-x package-list-packages)
18:34	timcharper	technomancy: so with the future wrapping, not only will each step of my pipeline be processed in parallel, but each iteration of each step will be processed in parallel, right ?
18:35	timcharper	(my understanding of clojure leads me to that conclusion)
18:35	technomancy	timcharper: think of a future as an agent that you can only set once
18:35	technomancy	rather than an identity with a series of values over time.
18:35	timcharper	and, one, according to my benchmarks, is much faster than agents
18:36	technomancy	how you consume a seq of futures will determine how things are processed.
18:36	timcharper	awesome, that's a neat trick. Thank you
18:39	onkara	CCW rocks
18:48	cemerick	onkara: oh? What's the best part so far?
18:56	mebaran151	timcharper: I've got a working clojure env with lein swank (and swank-clojure from elpa is officially unsupported based on the net's whisperings)
18:56	mebaran151	I'd like to run some of these examples in let over lambda, but I need SBCL to do so
18:57	vIkSiT	did technomancy post about that somewhere?
18:59	mebaran151	I remember the old days when I could just run m-x slime to get a clojure repl, but modern emacs doesn't like this; slime-connect works fine though
19:03	timcharper	mebaran151: I am using swank-clojure 1.1.0 and clojure-mode 1.7.1. slime-connect works great for both clojure 1.2 and 1.1.
19:03	mebaran151	when I had swank-clojure installed C-c C-k didn't work
19:04	mebaran151	complained about bad arities: I was advised to move to swank-clojure 1.2.0 and launch slime via lein swank
19:04	timcharper	strange... works here
19:04	mebaran151	are you using slime-connect or plain slime?
19:04	timcharper	slime-connect
19:04	mebaran151	slime-connect probably works, because your project is loading a modern swank implementation
19:05	timcharper	for clojure 1.1, I am using this: [leiningen/lein-swank "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"]
19:05	mebaran151	try just M-x swank-clojure-project
19:05	timcharper	I use that too
19:05	mebaran151	hmm, I got weird Java errors
19:05	timcharper	hmmmm
19:05	mebaran151	oh yeah, what version of slime do you run?
19:05	timcharper	20091016
19:06	mebaran151	new slime isn't as good as nicely aged slime
19:06	mebaran151	there we go
19:06	mebaran151	now we've got something
19:06	mebaran151	I'm on 20100404
19:06	timcharper	hmmm, I'm seeing I can upgrade. Now that you say it's no bueno, tempted to not
19:07	mebaran151	I had to because I upgraded my workstation
19:07	mebaran151	installed some new Linux love
19:07	mebaran151	Ubuntu Lucid!
19:08	timcharper	hurray for bleeding edges!
19:08	mebaran151	yeah, the upgrade is a little nasty
19:08	timcharper	lol
19:08	mebaran151	new swank though has some cool functions like breakpointing with local variables
19:08	mebaran151	which I like alot
19:08	mebaran151	(swank.core/break) is my friend
19:08	timcharper	_REALLLY_
19:09	timcharper	that rocks! you don't have to patch clojure for it to work?
19:09	mebaran151	only Clojure 1.2
19:09	mebaran151	has the magic sauce I think
19:09	timcharper	will have to give that a spin. Lack of debugging tools has been somewhat of a sore-spot for clojure
19:09	mebaran151	well it's still not like netbeans, where I'd click a line
19:10	timcharper	does netbeans work though?
19:10	mebaran151	but a real breakpoint line with locals inspection is nice
19:10	timcharper	(I couldn't get it to)
19:10	mebaran151	when netbeans works it works pretty well
19:10	KirinDave	Blog article I'm about to post about clojure and prototypes
19:10	KirinDave	https://gist.github.com/raw/2349be16daab2a02cba6/4a2f3b463b95b97ae696b5083309f81c235376ec/post-draft.txt
19:10	mebaran151	I was on 6.8 before I got addicted to paredit
19:11	timcharper	paredit is great
19:11	mebaran151	the repl was nice and friendly, and java completion _mostly_ worked
19:12	timcharper	have you installed highlight-parens for emacs ?
19:12	mebaran151	yeah I think I have
19:12	timcharper	I really like it
19:12	timcharper	the end
19:12	mebaran151	but not rainbow-parens
19:12	mebaran151	that was ugly
19:12	mebaran151	well clojure netbeans had highlight parens built in
19:12	mebaran151	decent formatting
19:13	mebaran151	but it was finicky and would often die for reasons I could never resolve
19:13	timcharper	(I use highlight-parens and customized it to be rainbow... looks decent)
19:13	tomoj	whoa.. never saw highlight-parens before. cool!
19:13	timcharper	'(hl-paren-colors (quote ("#ff2244" "#ff7700" "#ffff00" "#00ff00" "#2266ff" "#00aaff" "#ff00ff" "black")))
19:14	mebaran151	I think that Emacs needs a major update, though it's the best editor I've used yet
19:14	mebaran151	it knows how to get out of your way
19:14	mebaran151	it's kind of sad the best editor we have comes from the 70's
19:15	mebaran151	especially for mulitdocument editing, I think it could do better (though I don't know emacs lisp well enough to fix anything)
19:15	timcharper	emacs-lisp, in my opinion, is a terror
19:16	timcharper	(I've written a few emacs extensions)
19:16	mebaran151	I've often though it might be cool to write an emacs clone in Java and Swing
19:16	mebaran151	*thought
19:16	timcharper	yeah... and clojure ?
19:16	mebaran151	something you could script a little more sanely in Clojure
19:16	mebaran151	yeah, and Clojure
19:17	mebaran151	maybe mostly Clojure, but Swing components are so so brittle
19:17	timcharper	I think an emacs rewrite in clojure would be the coolest thing since sliced bread
19:17	mebaran151	well it wouldn't run emacslisp, because that would be annoying
19:17	timcharper	heh.. it might include an emacs-lisp emulator
19:18	timcharper	to help with the transition
19:18	KirinDave	It'd be a bad idea
19:18	mebaran151	Clojure really needs a programming envirionment written in Clojure
19:18	timcharper	emacs-lisp is really primitive, it'd be easy to implement an interpreter
19:18	KirinDave	Elisp's biggest limitation is that it thinks about editor things with a very dated model
19:18	KirinDave	buffers, frames, etc
19:18	mebaran151	KirinDave: exactly
19:19	timcharper	KirinDave: But why couldn't you map it?
19:19	tomoj	what's a better model?
19:19	mebaran151	it has no concept of buttons or controls that could make things a lot easier
19:19	tomoj	buttons? pff
19:19	tomoj	like, ones that you hit with the mouse, I assume?
19:19	mebaran151	or interactive text within text
19:20	timcharper	mebaran151: it has a concept of overlays that have click actions
19:20	mebaran151	oh overlays are interesting
19:20	mebaran151	but not just click, I'm talking about demarcating regions of text and rendering different things appropriately
19:21	tomoj	doesn't emacs demarcate regions of text and render different things appropriately?
19:21	mebaran151	kind of
19:21	vIkSiT	KirinDave, do you have a non raw version of that blogpost?
19:21	mebaran151	I mean everything is in nice terminal 1980's style
19:21	mebaran151	you couldn't exactly create a pretty IDE with Emacs :)
19:21	tomoj	I wonder if I really like it that way
19:22	tomoj	I certainly _feel_ like I wouldn't want the clojure-scriptable editor to be a pretty IDE
19:22	tomoj	but maybe emacs has just brainwashed me
19:22	timcharper	yes: I prefer a scriptable editor that has IDE-like components. Editor first.
19:22	mebaran151	that's probalby the only thing TextMate got right
19:22	timcharper	by IDE-like components I mean extensions
19:23	timcharper	TextMate got many things right
19:23	mebaran151	I was also thinking of a IDE that edited code rather than files
19:23	mebaran151	kidn of like smalltalk
19:23	mebaran151	that could perhaps just export the project
19:23	mebaran151	into something that lein or maven would jar up
19:24	mebaran151	instead of representing everything in terms of files, it would work in terms of a program graph, and you'd manipulate that tree, like a pervasive version of paredit
19:25	mebaran151	you could do ns refactors and stuff like that
19:25	timcharper	and then all of your source control systems would work marvelously with it
19:26	mebaran151	well save would be bound to export as files
19:26	tomoj	I don't see the point in ignoring the code<->file mapping while editing, especially since it's a pretty simple mapping in clojure
19:26	vIkSiT	hmm has anyone here used defrecord?
19:27	mebaran151	for one thing makes merging harder
19:27	vIkSiT	http://paste.lisp.org/display/111083
19:27	vIkSiT	How do I get my push function to return a record of type FStack?
19:27	timcharper	I think a Text Editor that can understand the language syntax (as with lisps) is a better way to go.
19:27	tomoj	yeah
19:28	tomoj	I think we need a cleaner compiler
19:29	mebaran151	I think most version control systems suck because they don't understand what they're comparing
19:29	mebaran151	it's bytes to bytes
19:29	mebaran151	where as if they were merging syntax trees, lots of things might make more sense
19:29	timcharper	is there any reason you couldn't extend a source control system to understand syntax trees when resolving conflicts?
19:29	tomoj	but can't we merge syntax trees anyway without pretending code isn't in files?
19:30	mebaran151	timcharper: I once decided I'd hack mercurial: I failed
19:30	tomoj	merging syntax trees sounds pretty dangerous to me
19:30	timcharper	if you have a specialized source control system, it will be great for that code, but generally suck for everything else
19:30	mebaran151	tomoj: merging syntax trees sounds like the lisp macro way of handling merges
19:30	mebaran151	where as straight merging is more like a C preprocessor
19:30	mebaran151	that blindly smashes text
19:30	tomoj	except I think it's very likely the merge results will usually not make any sense
19:31	mebaran151	why would it make any more or less sense than a merge that worked on bytes?
19:31	technomancy	once threads get merged to mainline, Emacs bytecode could be a semi-reasonable Clojure compilation target. way easier than a rewrite.
19:31	tomoj	merging diverging histories of a lisp form correctly (so that the lisp program actually does something useful) seems like a problem for humans
19:32	mebaran151	tomoj: I at least think the diff program might be easier to work with
19:32	mebaran151	I find myself usually blindly clicking my way through merges
19:32	timcharper	mebaran151: agreed: the suggested merges would be easier to understand. But I still think you can use an underlying SCM, such as git, to achieve such an end. git-merge-tool, for example, allows you to specify a custom merge resolution tool
19:32	mebaran151	getting a bad file, and then taking the old file, merging it by hand by copy and paste, and resubmitting that file as the Final one
19:33	timcharper	it could be done with the current flexibility of git
19:33	tomoj	it bugs me that mvn clojure:swank tries to compile stuff
19:33	timcharper	tomoj: try lein swank ?
19:34	tomoj	:P
19:34	timcharper	(git was originally meant to be a platform which you could use to develop an SCM)
19:34	mebaran151	timcharper: I'm not git expert: we usually use mercurial over where I work
19:34	timcharper	several emerged, and then one of them became standard
19:35	timcharper	mebaran151: so sorry...
19:35	mebaran151	because of some windows developer guys; git used to be hell to make run on Windows
19:35	timcharper	:)
19:35	mebaran151	hg is pretty good, actually
19:35	timcharper	(I kid, I kid... I know
19:35	timcharper	)
19:35	mebaran151	heh
19:35	timcharper	I started out with git and have devoted time to learning it inside out. I really love it, but understand it has it's warts.
19:36	mebaran151	still, an editor shouldn't need to use files for everything
19:36	mebaran151	you could emulate that behavior with a sufficiently clever version of save as
19:37	mebaran151	one should save a project rather than a file
19:39	Licenser	what is wrong with this code:
19:39	Licenser	,(update-in {1 2 3 4} [] assoc 3 5)
19:39	clojurebot	{nil {3 5}, 1 2, 3 4}
19:39	tomoj	vIkSiT: still stuck?
19:39	Licenser	shouldn't that be {1 2 3 5}
19:39	mebaran151	if you kept track of the version of entities rather than of tiles
19:39	vIkSiT	tomoj, yea :)
19:39	mebaran151	you could mix and match the old and the new
19:39	tomoj	you have "Fstack." instead of "FStack."
19:40	mebaran151	maybe even pull up old versions for a visit to see what got broken
19:41	tomoj	Licenser: what exactly are you trying to do?
19:41	tomoj	if you want {1 2 3 4} -> {1 2 3 5}, why not just (assoc m 3 5) ?
19:41	Licenser	update a map by a given path that does not work if the path is empty
19:41	Licenser	I think that is a bug in update-in
19:41	Licenser	unless there is some special thought of that
19:41	vIkSiT	tomoj, ARGH
19:41	tomoj	yeah, seems like it should error out
19:41	vIkSiT	thanks :)
19:41	Licenser	tomoj:
19:42	Licenser	,(get-in {1 2 3 4} [])
19:42	clojurebot	{1 2, 3 4}
19:42	Licenser	acts as expected
19:42	tomoj	that's not really what I would expect
19:42	tomoj	well, yeah, I guess it makes sense
19:43	tomoj	Licenser: seen the source for update-in?
19:43	Licenser	nope
19:43	tomoj	it is assumed that you will pass at least one key
19:43	Licenser	hmm
19:43	tomoj	it destructures the path like [k & ks]
19:44	tomoj	and checks whether ks is nil or not to decide whether to recur
19:44	tomoj	but for you, k is nil, so
19:45	Licenser	hmm yes but it is kind of not intuitive
19:45	Licenser	in my eyes at least
19:45	tomoj	doing anything at all with [] seems unintuitive to me
19:45	tomoj	you think it should pass the whole map to your function, I guess?
19:46	tomoj	again I guess that does make sense.. :)
19:46	tomoj	just never thought about it before
19:50	vIkSiT	hmm how would a purely functional pop work?
19:50	vIkSiT	(w.r.t stack)
19:51	vIkSiT	should it return the value of the popped element, or should it return the changed stack?
19:51	tomoj	you need two functions
19:51	tomoj	(or return both, but..)
19:51	vIkSiT	like a "top" and "pop"?
19:51	tomoj	yes, like first and next :P
19:52	vIkSiT	hehe but how do you return two things?
19:52	tomoj	in a vector or something
19:52	tomoj	but that's ugly
19:52	vIkSiT	urgh, thats ugly
19:52	tomoj	lists are already stacks, aren't they?
19:52	vIkSiT	hmm
19:53	vIkSiT	yes they should be
19:53	Licenser	tomoj: it is about when you don't have a fixed path you want but one that is passed or constructed
19:53	vIkSiT	and the behavior there is to return the (rest coll)
19:53	tomoj	Licenser: yeah, it just took me a while to understand, but I think you're right
19:53	Licenser	tomoj: or at least make get-in behave the same :P
19:53	tomoj	vIkSiT: but we also have first
19:53	Licenser	because it is really confusing otherwise
19:55	tomoj	vIkSiT: push pop peek, maybe?
19:55	vIkSiT	yes, I've got push, pop working
19:55	vIkSiT	now to figure out peek
19:55	vIkSiT	as in, for the other two I can do (swap! my-stack push val) and (swap! my-stack pop)
19:56	vIkSiT	wrapped the stack around an atom
19:56	vIkSiT	but peek is read only
19:56	mebaran151	you know, vectors already implement peek pop and push (under conj)
19:56	tomoj	is this just an exercise in protocols/records? just curious
19:56	vIkSiT	and If I use swap there, its going to override my stack with the top value!
19:56	mebaran151	it might be weird you start from the bottom, but I don't see any problem with that
19:57	tomoj	vIkSiT: just peek before you swap, then
19:57	vIkSiT	oh yes, its an exercise.. I'm going through Okasaki's purely functional data structures
19:57	tomoj	ah, cool, then
19:57	tomoj	are inductive graphs in there, I wonder?
20:01	tomoj	wouldn't it be cool if there were an easy way to proxy all of an interface's methods to a field of a deftype?
20:02	hiredman	if you have your queue in a ref, then you can compose multiple operations peek/pop/etc in a transaction
20:02	hiredman	tomoj: macro
20:03	hiredman	oh
20:04	tomoj	oh, with an atom, I guess there is no way to peek+pop atomically?
20:05	tomoj	(unless you do something silly like a function which returns a vector tuple with the first/next..)
20:06	vIkSiT	ah, I guess I could convert that to a ref
20:19	vIkSiT	if only Okasaki used lisp to implement the structures in his book :)
20:19	tomoj	what is it, haskell? ML?
20:22	vIkSiT	both actually
20:23	vIkSiT	print version has ML, and addendum with Haskell code
20:24	tomoj	ah
20:24	tomoj	yeah the paper about inductive graphs I found is haskell, too
20:24	tomoj	pain to translate
20:25	vIkSiT	I've had to jump into SML for that
21:23	lancepantz	anyone know of a function in core that is similar to filter, but will return two collections, one for which the predicate is true, the other false?
21:26	lancepantz	looks like group-by is what i want
21:31	AntonyBlakey	anyone know why this:
21:31	AntonyBlakey	(defmacro action-guard [name]
21:31	AntonyBlakey	(let [method-name (symbol (str "can-" name))]
21:31	AntonyBlakey	`(do
21:31	AntonyBlakey	(defmulti ~method-name (fn [ctx# module#] (-> module# :workflow :state)))
21:31	AntonyBlakey	(defmethod ~method-name [ctx# module#] false))))
21:31	AntonyBlakey	(doseq [x '[edit reassign submit approve reject reedit delete]] (action-guard x))
21:31	AntonyBlakey	fails with: "Unable to resolve symbol: ctx__3472__auto__ in this context" in the doseq ?
21:33	AntonyBlakey	(regardless of the missing :default dispatch value on the defmethod)
21:43	AntonyBlakey	Ah, stupid me. :default in the wrong spot in the defmethod.
21:54	ataggart	lancepantz: split-with
22:09	arohner	in compojure 0.3, there was a function url-params. Does anyone know where that went in ring / compojure 0.4-land?
22:11	Raynes	arohner: What did it do?
22:12	dsantiago	arohner, I think it is not in 0.4, but it should probably be in hiccup.page-helpers.
22:12	arohner	Raynes: it constructed the URL parameters for a link, given a map i.e. (url-params "google.com" {:a 1 :b 2})) => "google.com?a=1&b=2"
22:13	dsantiago	I'd email James Reeves and say you want it. :)
22:13	AntonyBlakey	There was a library published recently with generic url-construction facilities
22:14	arohner	AntonyBlakey: do you know the name of it?
22:14	AntonyBlakey	just looking in planet clojure
22:15	Raynes	arohner: I wrote a function for that a few days go and put it in clojure-http-client. It's small, and I believe Phil renamed it to add-url-params or something similar. You can steal it if you'd like.
22:15	AntonyBlakey	http://github.com/paraseba/resource-url
22:15	arohner	Raynes: thanks. I'll probably just pull the fn out of compojure 0.3.2 and publish a patch for hiccup
22:16	Raynes	Not sure it belongs in hiccup. Maybe you should ask weevy why he removed it and throw it into ring or something.
22:17	arohner	AntonyBlakey: interesting. thanks
22:18	dsantiago	Yeah, in my experience some things were just lost in the reorganization. He's been pretty responsive about putting things back in.
22:18	dsantiago	I'm not really sure why you want that function, if not to generate a URL for a link. It was in page-helpers in 0.3.
23:22	redalastor	I'm looking for the name of a function I know exists. It takes a function and value, applies the function to the value and applies the function again to the result of that, lather, rinse, repeat.
23:29	tomoj	iterate?
23:29	redalastor	Yes!
23:29	redalastor	Thanks