#clojure – 2010-05-19

2010-05-19

00:12	slyrus	evening folks
00:19	lancepantz	hi slyrus
00:20	lancepantz	better than downloading them manually :)
00:20	slyrus	not downloading so many things i didn't ask for would be my preference :)
00:34	johnmn3	,(read-string "(hi) (hi) (def hi (hello?))")
00:34	clojurebot	(hi)
00:35	johnmn3	how would you go about making a function that instead returns all the objects?
00:36	johnmn3	seems like you'd have to implement some reader logic
00:39	johnmn3	unless read-string returned an index of the last OEF
00:54	defn	testing
00:54	defn	johnmn3: you could just parse the string for sexps, extract them as strings and read-string them
00:55	johnmn3	found an easier way: (clojure.inspector/inspect-tree (read-string (str "(" (slurp "some.core.clj") ")")))
00:55	johnmn3	That way it takes it in as one big "object"
01:22	durka42	has anyone tried to use penumbra and cantor together?
02:11	slyrus	d'oh! looks like slime HEAD and swank-clojure still don't play nice with each other.
02:19	slyrus	well, at least the Oct 31 swank still works... still, it would be nice if someone were to bring swank-clojure into 2010.
02:33	G0SUB	vIkSiT
02:33	vIkSiT	G0SUB
02:34	G0SUB	vIkSiT, how are you doing?
02:34	vIkSiT	not bad at all, thanks! how've you been? ltns
02:34	G0SUB	yeah, don't hang around on IRC that much these days.
02:34	G0SUB	vIkSiT, can I PM?
02:35	vIkSiT	sure
03:41	LauJensen	Morning all
03:47	spariev	morning
03:49	esj	Morning All
03:50	spariev	LauJensen: any updates on clojureql 2.0 status ?
03:55	LauJensen	spariev: Yes, we are transitioning to target Clojure 1.2 and that will hopefully enable to faster finish the new frontend. Some attempts were made yesterday to leverage protocols, but it didn't work out. Once thats finished we'll modify the backend to work with the new frontend and hopefully we'll be all set
04:01	spariev	LauJensen: cool, thanks for the insights. I want to replace some of sql-s in my code with clojureql, but it can wait for the new shiny version :)
04:02	LauJensen	I definitely recommend waiting :) 1.0 will be rock solid, which is why we're taking our time with the details
04:19	AWizzArd	~seen hoeck
04:19	clojurebot	hoeck was last seen quiting IRC, 95 minutes ago
04:31	AWizzArd	,clojure-version
04:31	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
04:38	defn	congrats to Raynes && Licenser on getting on HN for try-clojure.org
05:17	mmarczyk	LauJensen: morning
05:17	mmarczyk	LauJensen: you've got some missing imgs on pages 14 & 15 :-)
05:17	LauJensen	Good Morning :)
05:18	LauJensen	mmarczyk: Not so much missing, as just they never earned an avatar
05:18	LauJensen	They were my very firsts posts, before I found that plugin
05:18	mmarczyk	dispite this glaring omission on your part, if at some point I decide to start blogging, I'll be stealing loads of code+ideas from you :-)
05:18	mmarczyk	despite, ouch
05:19	LauJensen	hehe, start blogging? Ive been blogging since september I think
05:20	LauJensen	But Im telling you guys, its the best living w/o a database. Everything can be poked and prodded from the command-line :]
05:20	mmarczyk	doin' well so far :-)
05:20	mmarczyk	and moving on to advanced thermal processing techniques already
05:20	mmarczyk	impressive
05:20	mmarczyk	"its the best living w/o a database" <- says the ClojureQL guy
05:20	mmarczyk	does this affect the credibility of the project, I wonder
05:21	LauJensen	Databases really have their place in the world, no doubt about it - But I question wether blogs are a correct place to use them
05:22	mmarczyk	that sounds altogether reasonable to me :-)
05:23	mmarczyk	btw, I was meaning to ask
05:23	mmarczyk	you guys still use Clojuresque, right?
05:23	LauJensen	Yes sir
05:23	mmarczyk	um
05:23	mmarczyk	any chance of you converting to more civilised ways? :-P
05:24	LauJensen	mmarczyk: For the 1.0 release we are weighing all options, so whatever we decide to realease on will be optimal
05:26	LauJensen	mmarczyk: net fail, got my last line?
05:26	mmarczyk	yup, thanks
05:27	mmarczyk	it's just that that would be my one and only reason to touch Groovy
05:27	mmarczyk	I'd rather avoid that...
05:28	LauJensen	I understand, though I wouldn't fear learning new things, just question wether or not the pay-off is big enough
05:29	mmarczyk	...and since it's supposed to be a most-definitely-Clojure-only lib, of potentially large significance to any Clojurian likely to do any db work, I submit to you that it makes sense for it to use something like ant/mvn (JVM-wide standard) or lein (super-Clojure-friendly), whereas pulling in another JVM language -- not quite so much
05:30	LauJensen	I see what you're saying
05:30	mmarczyk	plus I don't mind learning new things at all, so I'll gladly get around to Groovy once I'm done with my Erlang, Scala, Haskell (some type classes I can't say I grok yet), Common Lisp (PAIP) etc. ideas ;-)
05:31	mmarczyk	but that's the personal part, the previous sentence was what I consider to be a reasonable argument
05:31	LauJensen	I'll throw it into the mix when we have our next build talk, which should be later today
05:31	mmarczyk	cool, thanks :-)
08:29	chouser	what's the right mime type for clojure code?
08:29	chouser	text/x-clojure? application/x-clojure?
08:38	neotyk	chouser: isn't it IANA that needs to approve registration, to have definitive answer ?
08:46	chouser	you can use an x-clojure subtype. the x- is for unregistered types.
08:47	chouser	I guess I'm mainly asking about text/ vs application/
08:49	zakwilson	chouser: running file -i on source files in several languages I have lying around suggests that text is preferable for source code.
08:51	wthidden	I have an issue with using await within an agent action. I get a Can't await in agent action.
08:51	wthidden	Why is this not possible?
08:52	AWizzArd	wthidden: why can't you do that?
08:52	AWizzArd	What good would await be if it were only for agents that currently have no jobs in their queue?
08:53	wthidden	hmm I think I'm confused then.
08:53	AWizzArd	await will stop your current thread until the agent finished its work
08:54	wthidden	Yes that is what I want
08:54	AWizzArd	Then await is your friend (:
08:54	wthidden	but its not being very friendly to me right now.
08:55	AWizzArd	Please specify it further.
08:55	wthidden	so I have fn1 that create 2 or 3 agents that run fn2.
08:55	wthidden	then I await for the agents to complete.
08:55	wthidden	when I hit the await i get the Can't await in agent action.
08:55	AWizzArd	chouser: it should be application/clojure imo
08:56	wthidden	Note also that fn1 is also an agent action.
08:57	chouser	await is not allowed in agents actions because if it were there would be a very real possibility for deadlock
08:58	AWizzArd	wthidden: inside an agent action you try to await which... what chouser said
08:58	AWizzArd	wthidden: could you maybe run fn2 in a future?
08:58	chouser	wthidden: perhaps 'future' would fit better than agents?
08:58	AWizzArd	derefing futures will block your code too
08:58	chouser	just like 'await' does
08:59	wthidden	will all my futures run in parallel?
08:59	chouser	wthidden: yes
08:59	wthidden	so if i did:
08:59	wthidden	(map #(future %) list-of-fns)
09:00	AWizzArd	,(time (let [a (future (do (Thread/sleep 1000) 1)), b (future (do (Thread/sleep 1000) 2))] [@a @b]))
09:00	clojurebot	[1 2]
09:00	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1002.653 msecs"
09:00	wthidden	that would kick off as many threads as there are items in list-of-fns?
09:01	chouser	wthidden: well, map is lazy and 'future' takes a block of code not a fn. But other than that, yes. :-)
09:01	chouser	(doall (map future-call list-of-no-arg-fns)) would run them all in parallel
09:01	chouser	though for something like that you might consider pmap
09:02	AWizzArd	or (doseq [job jobs] (future-call job))
09:02	wthidden	right..
09:02	chouser	AWizzArd: why "application" instead of "text"? It is human readable text, after all, with an encoding and everything.
09:02	wthidden	ok... let me try that then...
09:03	wthidden	hmm then where would I be blocking?
09:03	chouser	when you deref those futures.
09:05	chouser	,(time (vec (map deref (doall (map future-call (repeat 5 #(do (Thread/sleep 1000) (rand-int 100))))))))
09:05	clojurebot	[93 20 45 29 97]
09:05	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1003.494 msecs"
09:06	wthidden	chouser: I see... thanks
09:06	wooby	chouser, i'd go with text, if you're interested in browsers displaying it
09:07	chouser	wooby: hm, good point.
09:07	wooby	with something like text/clojure people could get their browser to open it in emacs or whatever, if desired
09:08	zakwilson	AWizzArd: that doesn't seem to hold true when the number of futures exceeds the size of the thread pool.
09:08	zakwilson	At a trivial example: (pmap #(do (Thread/sleep 1000) %) (take 100 (iterate inc 1)))
09:08	chouser	futures use the 'send-off' pool which isn't bounded.
09:08	chouser	pmap uses the bounded 'send' pool
09:09	zakwilson	I thought pmap worked by creating futures
09:10	chouser	zakwilson: hm... you're right. but pmap imposes its own limit, only doing availableProcessors+2 items at a time
09:11	AWizzArd	chouser: it also is application/json
09:11	AWizzArd	zakwilson: right
09:11	AWizzArd	and I think futures now use the same pool that agents use
09:12	AWizzArd	or, the send-off pool that is
09:12	AWizzArd	Anyway, we have some cores already, and the high hundreds are coming.
09:13	AWizzArd	In the 2030ies one cpu will hold billions of cores. So, nothing we need to be careful with :)
09:13	Hodapp	I'd prefer something more like GPUs because I've found that contains more power that actually can be leveraged.
09:14	AWizzArd	though they are not really general enough today
09:14	zakwilson	I'm really wishing for more cores now. I'm running code that's very CPU-intensive and fully parallel.
09:14	AWizzArd	cpu and gpu will melt
09:14	AWizzArd	zakwilson: a quad-slot board + 4x AMD Magny Cours ==> 48 cores.
09:15	Hodapp	zakwilson: There are multiple types of parallel.
09:15	zakwilson	And costs several thousand dollars more than I have lying around.
09:15	zakwilson	But yes, such a machine would be perfect for what I'm doing.
09:15	AWizzArd	zakwilson: sure, but soon they will become mainstream
09:15	Hodapp	"soon they will become mainstream"... where have I heard that before?
09:16	AWizzArd	Hodapp: ok ok, at least since 1900 it was true that the number of calculations that you can do gets multiplied by 1000 within 10 years.
09:16	AWizzArd	for 1000$ I forgot
09:16	zakwilson	I think he's right on that. What we see in x86 server chips at any given time is usually in mid-priced desktop chips a couple years later.
09:17	zakwilson	s/he/AWizzArd
09:17	AWizzArd	A 15 million dollar supercomputer from 1990 could do a few gigaflops
09:17	AWizzArd	today a common amd/intel cpu can do 2-5 times more, and will cost 100-1000
09:18	AWizzArd	the factor of 1000 per decade is very conservative (Ray Kurzweil). See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flops#Hardware_costs
09:18	sexpbot	"FLOPS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"
09:21	AWizzArd	Hodapp: also check this video, i think between minute 20 and 35 or so. It is from Standford University. With molecular nanotechnology we can get a cpu with the size of the grain of sugar, for just a few cents, which has about the computational power of all computers that exist right now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsuTsOmvsc&fmt=22
09:21	sexpbot	"YouTube - Self-Improving Artificial Intelligence"
09:21	vu3rdd	AWizzArd: heard of Tilera?
09:22	Hodapp	AWizzArd: Claims such as that almost always have to be taken with a grain of salt.
09:22	Hodapp	AWizzArd: Every year, some new exciting technology is demonstrated that will supposedly revolutionize everything.
09:22	AWizzArd	vu3rdd: no
09:23	Hodapp	vu3rdd: That's the CPU name I was trying to remember...
09:23	vu3rdd	http://www.tilera.com/
09:23	sexpbot	"Tilera Corporation"
09:23	Hodapp	kept thinking "Tileron" or something
09:23	vu3rdd	have a look. I think this is definitely the future.
09:23	vu3rdd	It is a mesh-like architecture, instead of the traditional intel like approach which is doomed to fail
09:23	AWizzArd	Hodapp: sure, but this is university stuff, and as said in the video it is already well understood, no exoctic parts missing. And then we can look back at 110 years of history which provide awesome evidence, plus see the plans of todays companies.
09:24	AWizzArd	vu3rdd: okay thanks, I will have a look at this
09:24	vu3rdd	and this is real. There are products working with this processors right now
09:24	Hodapp	AWizzArd: What you're saying fails to distinguish this from anything else.
09:24	AWizzArd	Hodapp: not really, because we don't have such a successful track record for anything else.
09:25	Hodapp	AWizzArd: Yeah, we do. I've read the articles.
09:25	zakwilson	What ISA are the Tilera chips?
09:25	vu3rdd	propreitary
09:25	vu3rdd	But they have gcc/linux-SMP working
09:26	Hodapp	fork or mainline kernel?
09:26	Hodapp	zakwilson: x86 is almost always a step in the wrong direction, and strictly speaking, not a whole lot less proprietary
09:27	zakwilson	Did I say x86?
09:28	Hodapp	zakwilson: No, but I did. Most things are an improvement over it.
09:28	AWizzArd	vu3rdd: yes, that looks nice, 100 cores à 1.5 GHz on 55 watts during full load sounds impressive.
09:29	AWizzArd	Hodapp: I don't want to go into a argument-by-authority discussion, but I honestly must say that I trust the scientists who studied this topic for a few decades a bit more right now, though this is nothing personal.
09:30	AWizzArd	but sure, they can be wrong
09:31	zakwilson	Having more ISAs around has been a bad thing for software diversity in general. Maybe the LLVM will fix that.
09:31	Hodapp	AWizzArd: Take a look at popular science articles, particularly ones that make similar claims and are from a decade or more prior. It will not take you long to realize how much they are in the practice of overstating the value of something new.
09:32	AWizzArd	ok
09:33	Hodapp	zakwilson: If it moves us away from x86 to something cleaner, I'm in favor of it.
09:33	zakwilson	Hodapp: I expect ARM to take over from x86 for general-purpose computing.
09:33	AWizzArd	zakwilson: because their efficiency, calculations per energy?
09:34	Hodapp	zakwilson: It's possible.
09:34	AWizzArd	+of
09:34	Hodapp	zakwilson: They already have the mobile and embedded market pretty strongly.
09:34	zakwilson	Mostly because of market forces, not anything technical. Anything more energy-efficient could win that fight in theory.
09:35	Hodapp	zakwilson: Market forces are also what create such massive inertia that keeps the winner "in theory" from being the winner in practice.
09:35	zakwilson	Big manufacturers are coming out with ARM laptops this year. History has shown that in hardware, the low-end typically grows to displace the current mainstream/high-end.
09:36	Hodapp	ARM-based laptops and netbooks have been promised for a couple years now, but few have actually been delivered
09:36	Hodapp	though I've been looking for affordable ones
09:36	AWizzArd	Interesting will be how/if they can break through the memory wall
09:38	zakwilson	Lenovo and HP are introducing ARM laptops in the netbook range that are thinner and lighter than most x86 offerings.
09:38	Hodapp	zakwilson: And the price?
09:38	zakwilson	Also in the netbook range
09:38	Hodapp	I thought Dell had some too but they were more expensive
09:38	zakwilson	so... $300-600 or so
09:38	Hodapp	Do they have any actually for sale yet?
09:39	rsynnott	there are challenges to making x86 as efficient per watt as ARM, of course
09:40	Hodapp	rsynnott: Like the fact that 75% of the transistors are being used for decoding that clusterfuck of an instruction set.
09:40	zakwilson	I don't think the major vendors have them for sale yet.
09:40	Hodapp	zakwilson: I am pretty sure Dell has one, or at least had one at one point
09:40	rsynnott	Hodapp: yep; that tends to be the issue for low-energy intel stuff
09:41	rsynnott	they could, presumably, make a chip which had the same core but a more sensible instruction set
09:41	rsynnott	but then they'd have to wait on the compiler vendors and so on
09:41	Hodapp	rsynnott: I don't see Intel trying that, especially after Itanium.
09:42	Hodapp	Itanium was quite a decent design, but perhaps put too big a burden on compilers that weren't up to the task.
09:43	chouser	I worked on an OS that ran on Alpha. We mocked the Itanium design. :-)
09:43	Hodapp	well, it was quite a decent design compared to most x86.
09:46	Hodapp	my friend found an Alpha in a hallway and got it running again
09:46	Hodapp	thing is a tank
09:47	AWizzArd	I remember Alpha to be the first who hit the 100 MHz? Was it like that? While amd and intel were still playing with 60 MHz or so
09:47	Hodapp	wouldn't surprise me
09:47	zakwilson	I think it was also the first to hit 1000 mhz
09:47	Hodapp	also still killed Intel in floating-point performance
09:47	rsynnott	they tended to have a clock frequency advantage over any other general purpose processors at the time
09:47	rsynnott	*at any given time
09:48	Raynes	chouser: You have a confusing twitter. I did @chouser before realizing that it was @chrishouser. -.-
09:48	Hodapp	wasn't it still routed by hand which let them fine-tune some things better and get higher clocks?
09:48	chouser	Raynes: yeah, someone had @chouser before it had ever occured to me I'd have any use for twitter.
09:48	rsynnott	Hodapp: so I heard
09:49	Raynes	Sad.
09:49	Raynes	It appears that people already have nearly every possible permutation of the word "Rayne" imaginable.
09:49	eevar2	time to change your nick then :p
09:50	Raynes	eevar: I've considered it, but nobody would know who I am. :(
09:50	Raynes	My nick has absolutely no association with my real name at all.
09:50	rsynnott	('sinnott' is more common; my version was probably a spelling mistake on a birth cert)
09:51	Raynes	rsynnott: Your nick sounds a little like "astronaut".
09:51	AWizzArd	Anyone here on Linux who can tell me please: (str (java.io.File. "C:\\abc.txt"))
09:51	chouser	"C:\\abc.txt"
09:51	AWizzArd	ok
09:53	powr-toc	does anyone know if its possible to pass properties or arguments from the command line into a script, run via a maven-clojure-plugin?
09:56	cemerick	powr-toc: set the system properties you want on your command line invocation, and then just pass those through as properties to the clojure process via <clojureOptions> or arguments via <args> (both configuration elements for clojure-maven-plugin)
09:58	powr-toc	cemerick: ahhh... I tried doing mvn clojure:run -Dfoo=bar, but the script didn't pick it up... Are you saying I'd need to add <clojureOptions>-Dfoo=${foo}</clojureOptions> for it to work?
09:58	cemerick	powr-toc: yes; the system properties you pass to maven impact its process, but aren't automatically passed on to child processes
09:59	powr-toc	Cheers mate, I'll give it a try :-)
09:59	cemerick	each clojure:run or java:exec, etc. is a separate forked process, not an intra-maven invocation
10:12	remleduff	Good morning everyone. Some people were wondering last night, is it intentional that "str" honors print-length when used on most of the collection types?
10:12	remleduff	,(let [print-length 1] (str '(1 2 3 4 5 6)))
10:12	clojurebot	"(1 2 3 4 5 6)"
10:12	remleduff	Hmm, that didn't
10:13	chouser	binding
10:13	remleduff	,(binding [print-length 1] (str '(1 2 3 4 5 6)))
10:13	clojurebot	"(1 ...)"
10:13	chouser	never noticed that. hm.
10:14	remleduff	At first I thought it was correct, but I"m not sure anymore
10:14	remleduff	,(binding [print-length 1] (str (map inc '(1 2 3 4 5 6))))
10:14	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@387c1804"
10:14	arkahn	and point #2, why isn't it documented ; )
10:17	remleduff	We isolated it to: ASeq.toString calls RT.printString, which uses the print-method multimethod to print things. The multimethod for Seq printing honors print-length
10:18	remleduff	Is there an easy way to ask at the repl or in slime, "What multimethod will be called for these arguments?" And have it either give you the source code for the multimethod or the metadata, or in slime navigate you to it?
10:21	chouser	remleduff: that's a good question
10:21	jowag	Clojurescript or Scriptjure? Conjure or Compojure? So many choices ...
10:22	AWizzArd	jowag: and there is also compojure-rest
10:23	jowag	Oh
10:23	AWizzArd	A port from the Erlang Webmachine: http://webmachine.basho.com/
10:23	sexpbot	"Webmachine - software shaped like the Web"
10:24	jowag	I just want to develop a "ajax" web application on GAE, seems like I'll spend half the time deciding which framework/libraries to use :)
10:24	chouser	remleduff: I don't think sufficient information is currently captured to do that
10:24	AWizzArd	jowag: when this gets more complicated you want sane behaviour of your server
10:25	AWizzArd	If you are not an expert on http a simple framework will leave https complexities on you. Just see: http://webmachine.basho.com/diagram.html
10:25	chouser	now that fns can carry metadata, it would be possible for defmethod to put filename/linenumber info on the fn it creates, and then we could probably do something with it.
10:26	chouser	jowag: you can rule out clojurescript for now
10:29	jowag	thank you, I know html but not http :) very little eperience with js, so naturally, It would be perfect if everything could be generatet with clojure code
10:30	chouser	scriptjure might be a reasonable choice -- clojure-like syntax with javascript semantics
10:31	chouser	some day clojurescript will live again, and it might then be a good choice esp. for apps with significant browser-side code.
10:33	remleduff	,(.getMethod print-method ((.dispatchFn print-method) '(1 2 3) nil))
10:33	clojurebot	#<core$fn__5681 clojure.core$fn__5681@d3d0d4>
10:33	remleduff	But there's no metadata on that :(
10:33	chouser	right
10:33	alexyk	is there a way to modify repl so it reports the time of each operation, like mysql, as if wrapping each in an implicit (time ...) ?
10:34	chouser	remleduff: there could be with a tweak of the defmethod macro. I assume such a change isn't welcome before 1.2
10:34	alexyk	chouser: you'd risk the ire of the fundamentalists, looks too much like scripture, and last time I checked you were somewhere in Midwest? :)
10:34	remleduff	alexyk: clojure.main/repl is super-configurable
10:35	alexyk	remleduff: so just hack it?
10:35	chouser	just don't claim clojure or javascript is the Word of God and you'll be fine.
10:35	alexyk	chouser: now that you mention it, rhickey should be deified and then we're in business
10:36	alexyk	clojure surely feels like the voice of some higher power
10:36	alexyk	or an enlightened one at least
10:36	alexyk	remleduff: I mean, should I just hack it? :)
10:37	remleduff	Well, I don't consider it a hack unless you change the source code ;)
10:39	AWizzArd	well, those words share a lot of letters
10:39	alexyk	AWizzArd: it's hard to object to that
10:40	AWizzArd	but compare: donkey and monkey
10:40	AWizzArd	"dunn key" "monn key"
10:40	AWizzArd	no, the other way around
10:40	AWizzArd	don key and munn key
10:40	remleduff	alexyk: If all you're needing is a quick hack, maybe you could also do it by rebinding eval
10:41	alexyk	AWizzArd: the question is, is the distance between reification and deification greater than that between donkey and monkey
10:41	alexyk	remleduff: I'm interested in a solid way. Is rebinding eval cool?
10:41	remleduff	Not sure I'd trust my judgement on that one ;) For what it's worth, I'd say probably not ;)
10:42	chouser	you probably can't rebind eval because of direct binding.
10:43	alexyk	bbl
11:51	slyrus	well, i'm sure those of you who use slime probably knew this, but slime HEAD does work, you just have to make sure slime-autodoc isn't enabled in your clojure slime buffers.
12:11	arkahn	the beginning of my first program in clojure; right now, it only outputs the first of the file I'm reading. How would I get it to print out all lines?
12:11	arkahn	http://gist.github.com/406473
12:12	arkahn	edit - 'only outputs the first line'
12:13	qbg	,(doc line-seq)
12:13	clojurebot	"([rdr]); Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader."
12:13	qbg	Use that
12:14	arkahn	qbg: thank you
12:15	qbg	Also, it is not idiomatic to have all of those parentheses on their own lines
12:16	arkahn	they should be on the last line of a group of code?
12:16	SynrG	i wouldn't call a matter of coding style like that idiomatic (though it may be conventional)
12:17	qbg	Yes, conventional, not idiomatic
12:17	qbg	arkahn: Take a look at http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
12:17	arkahn	style is important to me - cool, thanks for the link
12:37	Licenser	A question, sadly somewhat javaish
12:38	Licenser	I want a string scanner that does NOT use this silly delimiter java.util.Scanner has.
12:54	fogus	Licenser: The Scanner class can use an arbitrary delimiter
12:54	Licenser	you can't get rid of it
12:54	Licenser	setting it to nil causes NPE setting it to "" causes it to match everything and only give 1 char tokens
12:55	ataggart	then set it to the dlimiter you actually want
12:55	Licenser	ataggart: none
12:55	Licenser	I don't want any delimiter
12:55	ataggart	wong class than
12:55	Licenser	yea but java does not seem to give any options to do what I want
12:55	fogus	It has a reset method. Also, the withDelimiter returns a new instance using your chosen
12:55	Licenser	I am now sing stubstr and re-find
12:56	remleduff	Doesn't "no delimiter" just mean, "give me the entire input as 1 string"?
12:56	fogus	Licenser: If you do not want a delimiter, then how is it a Scanner?
12:56	ataggart	"A Scanner breaks its input into tokens using a delimiter pattern"
12:56	Licenser	remleduff: notif you use next(pattern)
12:57	Licenser	I want a scanner that scanns tokens not delimiters
12:58	ataggart	the tokens are formed by breaking up a string on delimiters
12:58	Licenser	ataggart: that is why I saied I want a string scanner that works different
12:58	ataggart	java.util.Matcher
12:58	ataggart	roll your own
12:59	ataggart	erm
12:59	ataggart	java.util.regex.Matcher
12:59	Licenser	ataggart: that does not work since it only matches the start of a string, I can't chain them
12:59	ataggart	then I clearly don't understand what you're trying to accomplish
13:00	Licenser	ataggart: tokenize code into it's elements for example: 123+123 should become 123, +, 123
13:00	Licenser	given the right regexps of cause
13:00	Licenser	(token-seq "123abc123" [[#"^\d+" :number] [#"^[a-z]+" :ident]]) -> ([:number "123"] [:ident "abc"] [:number "123"])
13:00	Licenser	this to be precise
13:06	ataggart	Matcher does (mostly) what you want. The problem is you seem to want different interleaving patterns.
13:07	ataggart	,(def m (re-matcher #"\d+" "+123+456+"))
13:07	clojurebot	DENIED
13:07	ataggart	bah
13:07	ataggart	anyway, run the above, then
13:07	ataggart	(.find m)
13:07	ataggart	then
13:07	ataggart	(.group m)
13:07	ataggart	the first result will be "123"
13:07	remleduff	Licenser: Can you use matcher.find repeatedly instead?
13:07	ataggart	yes
13:08	ataggart	you call find, then group
13:08	ataggart	repeatedly
13:08	ataggart	until find returns false
13:38	stilkov	I'm pretty sure I ran into this a while ago, but I can't remember how I got out of it: I can no longer run "lein help", it gives me a java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named
13:39	technomancy	stilkov: what lein version?
13:40	stilkov	mbp13:cljblog st$ lein -v
13:40	stilkov	Leiningen 1.1.0 on Java 1.6.0_20 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
13:40	Raynes	fogus: Thanks for the changes -- did you see the message I sent you on github by any chance?
13:40	technomancy	stilkov: paste your project.clj; must be something funky in there
13:41	stilkov	http://gist.github.com/406587
13:42	stilkov	Interestingly, one of the Google hits was this old gist: http://gist.github.com/398271
13:42	stilkov	Not from me
13:42	technomancy	stilkov: weird; looks good to me. the only thing I'd change is replace lein-swank with swank-clojure 1.2.1.
13:43	technomancy	lein-swank is now bundled with swank-clojure
13:43	technomancy	then run clean/deps again
13:43	stilkov	no, no change
13:44	technomancy	stilkov: I tried it here and it works fine
13:45	stilkov	I wanted to start from scratch, but somehow the README.md at http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen seems to be broken?
13:45	technomancy	actually the markdownj dep doesn't work
13:45	technomancy	uh, brb; sorry
13:47	mmarczyk	um, how come
13:47	mmarczyk	Leiningen's readme now reads
13:47	mmarczyk	"This is the GitHub web application accessible from most any modern web browser or API client. The codebase also includes Gist. And you can push to it from Subversion." etc.
13:49	stilkov	maybe a Github problem
13:50	mmarczyk	yeah, apparently
13:50	mmarczyk	I think I'll sue them for the ill effect the shock had on my health :-P
14:04	mmarczyk	stilkov: are you seeing this ClassCastException when running "lein help" outside of any project's directory?
14:05	stilkov	I've now git-cloned the most current version and use that
14:05	stilkov	lein help works
14:05	stilkov	unfortunately, this version refuses to find my source files
14:05	stilkov	not a happy lein day for me
14:06	mmarczyk	how do you mean, refuses to find your source files?
14:06	mmarczyk	also, does 1.1 not work for you?
14:07	technomancy	stilkov: any luck?
14:08	stilkov	not really no. are you aware leiningen's readme is somehow the wrong one?
14:09	stilkov	I mean the one displayed here
14:09	stilkov	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
14:09	technomancy	stilkov: that's actually a github bug
14:09	technomancy	veeeeeery interesting!
14:09	stilkov	probably related to this: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/README.md
14:09	stilkov	(github error)
14:10	technomancy	stilkov: here's another copy for while they are getting their issues sorted out: http://p.hagelb.org/lein-readme.html
14:10	sexpbot	"README.md"
14:11	Raynes	Thank you sexpbot, for I never would have guessed.
14:11	stilkov	thanks, I can start from scratch with that. I'm happy to use the current git HEAD, too - but all it says during compile is No :namespaces listed for compilation in project.clj.
14:11	tridd3ll	ok, brace yourself for anohter slime, lein question... I have emacs, slime and leiningen configured... no swank-clojure configured on the emacs side. I create a project with lein and start with lein swank. I can connnect fine with slime-connect in emacs. Now, how can I edit/compile files in the project with emacs? C-c, C-k does nothing. Is this because swank-clojure is not part of emacs now? I did quite a bit of reading and thought this new
14:12	tomoj	tridd3ll: is your .clj buffer in Slime mode?
14:12	technomancy	tridd3ll: no, you shouldn't need swank-clojure on the Emacs side at all
14:13	technomancy	C-c C-k should do the trick. are you getting any output?
14:14	tridd3ll	when I first do slime-connect I get: error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: swank-clojure-slime-mode-hook
14:15	technomancy	tridd3ll: you must still have some swank-clojure configuration left over somewhere
14:15	tridd3ll	technomancy: it's a brand new config
14:16	tridd3ll	technomancy: but C-c C-k is undefined
14:16	technomancy	tridd3ll: grep your .emacs.d for swank; there must be something in there.
14:19	tridd3ll	technomancy: seems like there has to be... but absolutely nothing... now I don't think my clj buffer is in slime mode though... what would cause that?
14:19	technomancy	tridd3ll: you have clojure-mode 1.7.1?
14:20	Raynes	Oh joy. elpa is borked.
14:20	tridd3ll	technomancy: I have the latest and greatest... I must be missing something on the config side
14:21	puredanger	so is the only reason to use deftype over defrecord to get those yucky mutable fields?
14:21	technomancy	puredanger: basically. deftype is lower-level. if you can use defrecord, you should.
14:21	technomancy	tridd3ll: there is no config side.
14:22	puredanger	when using defrecord, can you type-hint a field with a protocol?
14:22	technomancy	tridd3ll: at least, I don't have any elisp config beyond just installing the packages
14:23	tomoj	tridd3ll: try M-x slime-mode
14:24	tomoj	oh, didn't see your error
14:24	tomoj	dunno if manually turning on slime mode will help, then
14:24	tridd3ll	tomoj: no, that was it!
14:24	tridd3ll	tomoj: I think a previous config used to do that automatically
14:25	tomoj	that happens to me sometimes, and I don't understand why
14:25	tomoj	there's also M-x clojure-enable-slime-on-existing-buffers or something like that
14:26	technomancy	tridd3ll: if your previous config just called (slime-mode) without an argument, it could be toggling it back off now that it gets enabled automatically.
14:27	tridd3ll	technomancy: tomoj: thanks! I now have a clean setup on Arch linux with Emacs 23, clojure 1.2, lein, etc.
14:27	technomancy	cools
14:28	mmarczyk	technomancy: I notice that Lein's project.clj includes a :url entry -- does it actually do anything?
14:28	technomancy	mmarczyk: it's just metadata for clojars to display
14:29	mmarczyk	technomancy: I'm thinking of (finally) writing a patch to add this to pom.xml, plus licence & mailing list info, if provided
14:29	mmarczyk	technomancy: not sure if I asked if you'd be interested
14:29	technomancy	mmarczyk: sounds great.
14:29	mmarczyk	oh good, I'm on to it then :-)
14:30	technomancy	also: I asked someone if they'd be interested in prototyping hook functionality, but I don't remember who it was.
14:30	technomancy	anyone?
14:36	tridd3ll	technomancy: so it works fine even with the swank-clojure-slime-mode-hook message but I can almost guarantee that the only swank I have is from lein, just fyi... this is a brand new install of the OS
14:36	technomancy	tridd3ll: interesting; I'll try creating a new user and seeing if I can repro
14:37	ninjudd	technomancy: hooks for leiningen?
14:37	maxhodak	i'm trying to take a list of lists that looks like (([:key1 0.98 1] [:key2 0.82 1] ...) ... )
14:37	maxhodak	and turn it into a map that looks like: {:key1 ([3.4 [231 12]] [3.5 [139 122]]) :key2 ([0.92 [21 11]] ...) ...}
14:38	maxhodak	by counting up the items
14:38	maxhodak	and i can't for the life of me see the bug in my counting fn
14:38	maxhodak	http://gist.github.com/406656
14:38	maxhodak	(safe-increment)
14:40	puredanger	answering my own question, the answer is yes that you can type-hint a record's field as a protocol (since it's just an interface)
14:40	puredanger	still trying to figure out whether that's useful to me
14:42	technomancy	ninjudd: extending built-in tasks by plugins
14:44	mmarczyk	technomancy: incidentally, would you like to support global plugins / tasks in the future?
14:44	remleduff	maxhodak: Not sure where your bug is, but "get" supports a default value, so you can replace your if cruft in safe-increment with (get m k {})
14:44	technomancy	mmarczyk: it's on the list
14:44	ninjudd	technomancy: i'm interested. i almost sent you a message on github yesterday asking what your plans are for hooks
14:45	mmarczyk	technomancy: do you have a particular location to store them in your mind? or maybe an env var to pick it up from?
14:47	mmarczyk	(um, I now notice that I've formulated the above rather strangely... oh well)
14:49	maxhodak	remleduff: hmm thanks for that
14:50	AWizzArd	rhickey: about the permissions for the DynamicClassLoader - we found a way (a patch) to let it inherit all rights from its parent. The patch is a one liner, and a friend with an already accepted CA can post it.
14:51	technomancy	mmarczyk: yeah, probably in ~/.leiningen/plugins.clj to indicate which should be activated
14:51	technomancy	ninjudd: cool. we should start a thread on the lein mailing list about it so we don't have to search ye olde irc logs to find the plans. =)
14:51	AWizzArd	This allowed us to have an applet running all Clojure code, with full permissions, that were requested by the applet (through the .jnlp file that I wrote).
14:51	maxhodak	er, found it. the bug was in how i was mapping/reducing the lists; it was overwriting the 'aggregate' in the reduce each step
14:52	AWizzArd	rhickey: may I add an issue, with the patch coming in a bit later, so that we can discuss security implications, and if we want that patch to go into the DynamicCL?
14:53	mmarczyk	technomancy: makes sense
14:53	technomancy	mmarczyk: it also depends on a "lein install $FOO" task that works outside the context of a project
14:55	remleduff	maxhodak: In map-bins, does (= 1.0 (:accepted user-profile)) really return 1 rather than true?
14:55	mmarczyk	technomancy: and then you'd like it to pick up "lein install"ed plugins?
14:58	maxhodak	remleduff: no it returns true
15:01	remleduff	Since you figured it out, I'll stop looking and nitpicking. I'm finding it difficult to wrap my head around though, so was reading it for practice. ;)
15:07	nathanmarz	anyone know how to redirect all console output to repl in emacs when using lein swank?
15:11	mmarczyk	nathanmarz: call (slime-redirect-inferior-output)
15:11	nathanmarz	mmarczyk: in the repl or via M-x?
15:11	nathanmarz	neither one works
15:13	tridd3ll	technomancy: scratch the error I spoke of before... I was using jochu's clojure-mode... now everything works perfectly.
15:14	mmarczyk	nathanmarz: M-:
15:15	mmarczyk	nathanmarz: or M-x eval-expression
15:17	nathanmarz	(error "No inferior lisp process")
15:17	mmarczyk	then start one :-)
15:17	nathanmarz	i don't know what that means :(
15:17	nathanmarz	the repl works otherwise
15:17	mmarczyk	oh? hm
15:17	nathanmarz	the console output is all going to the terminal where i started lein swank
15:18	mmarczyk	you should be able to do M-x eval-expression (slime-redirect-inferior-output) in your SLIME REPL buffer
15:18	mmarczyk	I'll see which hook I put it into...
15:19	mmarczyk	slime-connected-hook, apparently
15:19	mmarczyk	so you can do (add-hook 'slime-connected-hook 'slime-redirect-inferior-output) prior to starting the REPL, then start the REPL and see if it works
15:21	nathanmarz	i execute (add-hook 'slime-connected-hook 'slime-redirect-inferior-output) via M-x eval-expression ?
15:21	mmarczyk	right, or at the repl started by M-x ielm
15:22	nathanmarz	before the clojure repl starts up it prints "error in process filter: No inferior lisp process"
15:22	mmarczyk	if it works, you might want to add it to ~/.emacs or whichever file you store your slime config in
15:23	mmarczyk	nathanmarz: but then it starts up fine, right?
15:24	nathanmarz	yes, but it's not redirecting any output
15:26	mmarczyk	hm, so maybe it should be (add-hook 'slime-connected-hook #'slime-redirect-inferior-output), though I thought it didn't matter (it probably doesn't)
15:26	mmarczyk	otherwise, that's weird
15:26	mmarczyk	where did you get your slime from?
15:27	nathanmarz	i followed technomancy's various instructions
15:27	nathanmarz	http://technomancy.us/126 http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
15:28	sexpbot	"in which are found tricks of the trade concerning clojure authorship - Technomancy"
15:32	mmarczyk	well, to be honest, I don't know what could be wrong
15:33	mmarczyk	I'm using a different setup -- no elpa -- so we're sure to have different versions of stuff
15:40	nathanmarz	yea, that must be it
15:40	nathanmarz	mmarczyk: thanks anyway
15:48	mmarczyk	what I have in my config is actually (add-hook 'slime-connected-hook (lambda () (interactive) (slime-redirect-inferior-output)))
15:48	mmarczyk	I'm not at all sure what's the (interactive) there for, so maybe try and see if it changes anything
15:49	mmarczyk	oh, and test the changes in a fresh Emacs instance
15:53	alexyk	any clojure bindings for kryo?
15:56	charlls	heyo
15:57	alexyk	treasure trove of jvm serializers: http://wiki.github.com/eishay/jvm-serializers/ -- and kryo apparently beats the pants off protobuffers and everything else
15:59	ninjudd	alexyk: that benchmark is what made me decide to write clojure-protobuf
15:59	alexyk	ninjudd: interesting choice given the place of protobufs there :)
16:00	ninjudd	alexyk: protobufs are still very fast, and they have other properties i wanted like support for merge-on-append
16:01	alexyk	ninjudd: yeah, I now like language portability
16:01	alexyk	ninjudd: but you have to compile things, which in many cases is annoying. Say serializing derivative graphs with a slightly different structure
16:01	ninjudd	alexyk: yep, that was another one. plus, i doubt kryo would actually be faster if you serialize persistent clojure data structures directly
16:02	ninjudd	alexyk: definitely would be less space efficient
16:02	alexyk	ninjudd: true, avoid hava cruft
16:02	alexyk	java
16:04	ninjudd	alexyk: note under the "Serialized Size" section: The ‘scala’ test, which uses Java’s built-in serialization, yields a larger serialized representation because it usually creates more Java classes under the hood.
16:04	ninjudd	alexyk: the same would be true for clojure
16:05	alexyk	ninjudd: true, Scala pollutes the classes directory as much as Clojure :)
16:07	alexyk	folks probably saw it, but it's exciting still: http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2010/05/better-performance-in-app-engine-with.html
16:07	sexpbot	"Google Code Blog: Better performance in App Engine with new Lisp language Clojure"
16:11	AWizzArd	alexyk: thx for the link
16:14	alexyk	"lisp language clojure" sounds vaguely Japanese to me :)
16:15	alexyk	ninjudd: are you gonna add sorted-map to protobuf?
16:15	hamza	is it not possible to add metadata to a keyword?
16:16	ninjudd	alexyk: hmm... how would it work? would it be a map or a map_by?
16:17	alexyk	ninjudd: a map, it will simply load into a sorted-map
16:17	tridd3ll	ANN: just posted a tutorial on my website about a non-ELPA install for emacs, swank and leiningen: http://riddell.us/ClojureSwankLeiningenWithEmacsOnArch.html
16:17	sexpbot	"ClojureSwankLeiningenWithEmacsOnArch"
16:18	quizme	It's all about Counterclockwise in Eclipse :)
16:18	tridd3ll	everything's bleeding edge and it seems to work great... also, no swank-clojure in emacs
16:20	ninjudd	alexyk: i wonder if protobuf supports multiple options, i could just add a sorted option that works for set, map and map_by
16:20	technomancy	tridd3ll: why do you have people building clojure/contrib instead of fetching from build.clojure.org?
16:21	tridd3ll	technomancy: not sure... that's always the way I did it I guess... been busy and out of the clojure world for a while
16:22	technomancy	it's fine if you're hacking clojure or contrib itself, but you can totally skip it if you just want to get your own project working
16:22	mmarczyk	it might make sense to show all stuff of this sort in one place, though
16:22	mmarczyk	meaning how to go about running things from the sources
16:23	ninjudd	alexyk: add an issue on github and i'll get to it when i have some time. or if you're feeling adventurous, fork clojure-protobuf and add it yourself
16:23	technomancy	I'd put it in a separate tutorial if it were me, just to simplify things for people who want to get started quickly. but it works.
16:23	mmarczyk	then if someone wants to hack Clojure with a stable elpa setup, that's one thing to swap out, and likewise for Clojure snapshots with bleeding edge slime
16:23	jweiss	i found an interactive clojure tutoral recently, sorta ajaxy web app.. can't find it now, anyone know what it was
16:24	ninjudd	jweiss: http://www.try-clojure.org/ ?
16:24	technomancy	mmarczyk: the thing is the custom-built clojure/contrib jars have absolutely no effect on the final outcome of the tutorial the way it's currently written
16:24	sexpbot	"TryClojure"
16:24	jweiss	ninjudd: no, that's not a tutorial, but it's cool
16:25	Raynes	jweiss: It is, actually.
16:25	ninjudd	jweiss: click the tutorial button
16:25	Raynes	jweiss: The tutorial is brief and incomplete, but I'm working on it.
16:25	Raynes	I'm curious as to what web app you're talking about.
16:25	Raynes	I certainly don't remember anything of the sort.
16:25	Raynes	They might put me out of business! ;)
16:26	tridd3ll	technomancy: I think I was mostly focused on the emacs part of the tutorial... this first part does allow for a bleeding edge clojure repl at a command line
16:26	jweiss	Raynes: no that's wasn't what i had seen before
16:26	mmarczyk	technomancy: hm, true
16:26	jweiss	nice though
16:26	ninjudd	jweiss: you're not referring to labrepl, are you?
16:26	Raynes	That's probably it.
16:26	mmarczyk	maybe links to snapshot solutions at each step would be useful
16:27	Raynes	Only thing remotely similar to an "interactive" tutorial besides try-clojure that I can think of.
16:27	jweiss	oh yeah that was it
16:27	jweiss	forgot that it required a local install
16:27	mmarczyk	then it's obvious that what's presented is the straight-from-the-repo approach and then there's a link to something prepackaged...
16:27	jweiss	thanks!
16:27	mmarczyk	incidentally, Maven's handling of licences and mailing lists is horrible :-(
16:28	mmarczyk	well, maybe not mailing lists, but licences -- come on, no predefined licences anywhere :-(
16:30	mmarczyk	would it be useful for lein to accept :licence :epl10 (or :license) as shorthand for :licence {:name "Eclipse Public License" :distribution :repo :url "..."} ?
16:30	mmarczyk	etc., or should I not bother
16:30	mmarczyk	(if I shouldn't, then it's done)
17:16	technomancy	mmarczyk: what's :distribution mean in that context?
17:24	mmarczyk	technomancy: "repo" (may be downloaded from the Maven repository) or "manual" (user must manually download and install the dependency)
17:26	hamza	is it not possible to attach metadata to a ref or a keywork? or is
17:26	hamza	there a work around this?
17:26	technomancy	so the central maven repositories actually serve up the text of certain licenses?
17:27	mmarczyk	technomancy: I think this means that if licence is set to "manual", they're not meant to have those jars at all
17:28	mmarczyk	technomancy: from the docs on .setDistribution: "Set the primary method by which this project may be distributed.", so apparently that's indeed what it is
17:28	mmarczyk	technomancy: I think that "repo" would be a sane default, but I'm a bit wary of providing any sort of defaults for legal stuff... a documented shorthand for widely used licences would probably be ok, though
17:29	mmarczyk	technomancy: so I'm wondering if I should bloat pom.xml by including a couple of those
17:29	mmarczyk	that's pom.clj
17:34	technomancy	I'm not sure why you'd need more than just a name/url for the license
17:35	technomancy	but hey, it's maven.
17:35	mmarczyk	yup
17:52	technomancy	hamza: you can add metadata to a ref, but not to a keyword
17:52	technomancy	since there is only ever one instance of a given keyword. it would be like adding metadata to a number
17:55	mmarczyk	,(with-meta (ref 0) {:foo 1})
17:55	mmarczyk	hm, well, whatever, but it complains at my repl about (ref 0) not being an IObj
17:56	mmarczyk	whereas (.resetMeta (ref 0) {:foo 1}) works
18:00	mmarczyk	(nb. (ref 0 :meta {:foo 1}) works, but I thought it was surprising that with-meta doesn't)
18:00	hamza	technomancy: it says ref can't be cast to IObj
18:00	hamza	,(with-meta (ref 0) {:a :b})
18:01	mmarczyk	hamza: see above, (ref 0 :meta {:a :b})
18:01	technomancy	ick
18:02	hamza	technomancy: thanks..
18:02	hamza	that worked..
18:19	Lajla	It comes down to,
18:19	Lajla	convince me, a Schemer, to learn Clojure.
18:20	Lajla	Extra points for not using violence or a thread to murder my family for failure to comply but rather rely on sophisticated arguments.
18:20	lancepantz	it's on the jvm, you can use all the java libraries
18:20	lancepantz	done.
18:20	lancepantz	:)
18:20	Lajla	Most Schemers are convinced by Java libraries these days?
18:20	Lajla	I have never used Java in my life.
18:21	Raynes	How about this: "It actually has libraries."
18:21	technomancy	Lajla: persistent data structures
18:21	technomancy	will change your life
18:21	Lajla	technomancy, explain.
18:21	Lajla	Your ghost is away.
18:22	technomancy	Lajla: you can share data structures between threads without having to worry that they'll get modified out from under you
18:22	technomancy	values are guaranteed to be stable
18:22	technomancy	Lajla: it's like lists in Scheme without setcar!/setcdr!; once you have a list, you know it's not going to flip out on you
18:22	powr-toc	Lajla: It's got a sane approach to state, is fast, cross platform, with libraries for almost everything; and there's a chance you might be able to convince your boss to use it, in production, in the real world.
18:22	Lajla	technomancy, but can't you use that in Scheme by just not modifying them?
18:22	technomancy	but imagine that across all your data structures
18:23	technomancy	Lajla: programs that use solely lists aren't performant
18:23	Lajla	technomancy, go on.
18:24	technomancy	Lajla: you can treat lists like hash tables with alists and plists, but it's cumbersome, and you know that once you have perf requirements you'll have to replace them all with a real hash-table anyway
18:24	technomancy	Lajla: but really nobody could do a better job than Rich of convincing: http://clojure.org/state
18:24	powr-toc	technomancy: ahh good point... the sequence library rocks
18:25	Lajla	technomancy, Rich doesn't murder my family does he?
18:25	powr-toc	specifically the polymorphic abstractions across lists, vectors, hashmaps and sets
18:28	powr-toc	Lajla: do you actually use Scheme for anything real?
18:28	ataggart	I've never understood the point of "challenging" others to prove the utility of a language, nor of accepting such "challenges".
18:28	ataggart	use it or don't.
18:30	Lajla	powr-toc, I automate some parts of my computer with it, let it write music and at the moment try to get it to replicate the writing style of Nietzsche to prove a point.
18:30	technomancy	Lajla: if there have been any murders, they've been thorough enough to dispose of any witnesses
18:30	Lajla	But actually I wanted to run my site on it in lieu of php, some people said I should dive in Clojure.
18:30	technomancy	here's my initial impression of why I was impressed with it after using it for a couple weeks (coming from ELisp and Ruby) http://technomancy.us/121
18:31	sexpbot	"in which new paradigms are explored, clojure is reached, and impressions are still cursory - Technomancy"
18:31	Lajla	ataggart, well, I like to see the best arguments, thus far some were reasonable enough
18:31	technomancy	but Rich's arguments are the best
18:31	technomancy	also: http://blip.tv/file/1313398 (long-ish video, but worth it)
18:31	sexpbot	"Clojure for Lisp Programmers Part 1"
18:32	powr-toc	This is my favourite clojure video: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
18:32	sexpbot	"InfoQ: Are We There Yet?"
18:32	ataggart	powr-toc: seconded
18:33	Lajla	Hmm, I'mn kind of annoyed by watching videos to gain information though, the same can often be put into text and read in 1/100th of the time.
18:34	ataggart	you're free to not watch them
18:34	powr-toc	ataggart: It's just such a damn good talk; brilliantly pitched, presented and articulated... directly relevant to most of the problems we currently face regarding time/concurrency... and to do it without showing a line of code is brilliant
18:35	powr-toc	Lajla: I have a transcript of it somewhere hold on...
18:35	powr-toc	http://codepad.org/eN7SjIoz
18:35	sexpbot	"Plain Text code- 214 lines - codepad"
18:35	Lajla	powr-toc, thank you.
18:36	ataggart	For those of you that know them, is there much utility to learning haskell or erlang (beyond simply knowing the language)?
18:38	technomancy	ataggart: for distributed systems it's probably worth learning erlang
18:38	technomancy	it has a great approach to fault-tolerance
18:38	technomancy	but I cringe at the thought of writing something in it
18:38	hamza	gents, i will be using add-watch in a project, well it says subject to change on the docs, what i am wondering is, is there a chance of it dissappering all together?
18:39	ataggart	technomancy: that was my understanding as well.
18:39	powr-toc	ataggart: I "know" Erlang but am not proficient in it... for me I think I've learnt most of what I can from it... much of the fault tolerance comes from the VM... though the supervision structures and trees are very nice and practical, theoretically they don't seem to expand your mind that much
18:39	ataggart	hamza: only if it turns out to be inherently flawed for some reason (unlikely)
18:39	powr-toc	I think Haskell, which I know next to nothing of, would be my next language to learn
18:40	hamza	ataggart: kk thanks...
18:40	technomancy	the type system sounds exhausting to learn
18:40	technomancy	I don't have the mental energy to tackle Haskell
18:40	Lajla	ataggart, Haskell is an 'industry language' I guess.
18:41	technomancy	going to take a look at Factor next
18:41	Lajla	Not as much a 'tool that helps you automate tasks of solve problems' as lisps are.
18:41	ataggart	Lajla: what does that mean?
18:41	Lajla	ataggart, it means it's primary domain is writing (commercial) software applications.
18:41	powr-toc	technomancy: Coding in Erlang's not too bad... but the REPL sucks, because of single assignment; and that records aren't first class language features
18:42	powr-toc	technomancy: Yeah, Factor is nice...
18:42	technomancy	powr-toc: not having strings is a huge strike against it, plus the syntax is nuts
18:42	ataggart	erlang doesn't have strings?!
18:42	powr-toc	I looked at it about two or three years ago... it was good then, I'd imagine its better now.... Slava Pestov is really only rivalled by Rich, in terms of productivity :-)
18:43	Lajla	I would recommend haskell over erlang I guess, they both try to do the same thing, with Haskell being better at it.
18:44	remleduff	Haskell was originally a teaching language ;)
18:44	powr-toc	technomancy: yeah, lack of strings is a bit crap; but the syntax is mostly pretty good; except for the semi-colon/period nonsense.... having said that though, I've done a fair bit of prolog, so I'm quite partial to the binding syntax behind erlangs pattern matching
18:44	technomancy	ataggart: it calls byte arrays "strings"
18:44	mmarczyk	Lajla: you're calling Haskell an "industry language"?
18:44	mmarczyk	I'm willing to bet that that would come as a surprise to most Haskellers
18:45	Lajla	mmarczyk, haskell is more used to make commercial software applications than research tools.
18:45	mmarczyk	it happens to be one of the more frequently used languages in publications on functional programming-related research
18:45	Lajla	It's not used as much as C or Java I mean, but used for the same things.
18:45	Lajla	That is quite correct.
18:45	powr-toc	Lajla: I was offered a job at erlang training and consultants; and was interviewed by simon thompson and francesco cessarini (the authors of the oreilly erlang book)...
18:46	mmarczyk	I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there was a tiny amount of INTERCAL out there in production
18:46	mmarczyk	I wouldn't stretch that to say that it's an "industry language" though
18:47	Lajla	mmarczyk, well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskell_(programming_language)#Applications
18:47	sexpbot	"Haskell (programming language) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"
18:47	powr-toc	Lajla: Anyway, Simon Thompson, is an academic computer scientist, who was involved in the design of Haskell and has written one or two books on it... he told me the thing he found refreshing about Erlang was it was more practical, less fractured, and more suited to industry
18:47	mmarczyk	incidentally, I wouldn't at all mind Haskell being used widely in the industry, that would make it (the industry) vastly more attractive in my eyes
18:47	mmarczyk	Lajla: not sure what point you're trying to make
18:47	Lajla	I more meant that the difference with most lisps is that for instance lisp is more used by people to write their own tools to help them with little indent to release these as commercial software solutions for others.
18:48	powr-toc	but it was clear; he found Erlang a little bit dirty... :-)
18:48	powr-toc	I think Erlang is without a doubt; the most widely used functional programming language... by almost any measure
18:48	mmarczyk	Lajla: well, to the best of my understanding, several Common Lisp vendors, PLT guys in the Scheme world and we Clojurians might have a different view of Lisps place in life
18:49	powr-toc	at least industrially
18:49	mmarczyk	Lajla: without even mentioning people writing Autolisp
18:49	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, could be that I'm wrong.
18:49	Lajla	But most examples of lisp I've heard of in commericial situations ended up for instance people using it as a scritping language behind Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within
18:49	powr-toc	I'm sure I had a reference for that... but I think in LOC's; more have been written in Erlang than anything else
18:50	powr-toc	(functional that is)
18:50	mmarczyk	Lajla: anyway, you're the first person I encountered to call Haskell an "industry language"
18:51	Lajla	powr-toc, what are LOC's?
18:51	powr-toc	lines of code
18:51	mmarczyk	Lajla: the notion gives me quite a pleasant thrill, so thanks for that
18:51	Lajla	Well, maybe I have a nonstandard definition of the term I guess.
18:51	alexyk	ninjudd: I want to try to read protobufs from Scala. How do the extensions work -- since you include collections.proto into a user proto, are they implemented by the protocol buffers themselves magically into right Java?
18:53	powr-toc	Lajla: What scheme dialects do you use?
18:53	ninjudd	alexyk: they are implemented here: http://github.com/ninjudd/clojure-protobuf/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/protobuf/PersistentProtocolBufferMap.java
18:53	powr-toc	sorry, I mean interpreters not dialects
18:53	ninjudd	alexyk: in fromProtoValue and toProtoValue
18:53	mmarczyk	powr-toc: actually "dialects" is probably the better world, if only because there's plenty of good compilers out there :-)
18:54	powr-toc	mmarczyk: LOL... as soon as I wrote interpreters, I regretted it... either way, the question still stands :-)
18:54	alexyk	ninjudd: aha, so I'd have to teach Scala to read those... I could reuse that Java right?
18:55	Lajla	powr-toc, PLT and R5RS
18:55	powr-toc	mmarczyk: it's just that scheme is a standard, right... so in theory there should only be one "dialect", right? :-)
18:55	ninjudd	alexyk: sure, or you can just use the PersistentProtocolBufferMap in scala
18:55	mmarczyk	powr-toc: in theory, theory resembles practice ;-)
18:56	ninjudd	alexyk: though i will be rewriting it to use protocols in the near future
18:56	powr-toc	mmarczyk: ahh yogi bera... I love that quote
18:56	mmarczyk	(with an especially idealistic theory it might even be the other way around)
18:56	mmarczyk	me too. :-)
18:58	Lajla	powr-toc, well, we use 'dialect of scheme' to signify a set of extensions I guess.
18:58	Lajla	That's what scheme ultimately was designed for, a framework to extend.
18:58	Lajla	I use numerous added syntaxes I added myself.
18:59	powr-toc	On another topic... I love how Clojure "Just Works"... last week, I managed to get it, with compojure, working with GWT RPC! :-)
18:59	hiredman	scheme was an experiment in message passing
19:00	powr-toc	hiredman: it was?!
19:00	hiredman	yes
19:00	mmarczyk	Scheme is a contract on continuation semantics!
19:00	mmarczyk	(khem)
19:01	powr-toc	ahh of course
19:01	hiredman	it used to have another operator besides lambda, called alpha that was for creating things you passed messages to
19:01	powr-toc	hiredman: so what happened to it?
19:01	hiredman	but it turned out to have essentially the same code as for λ
19:01	mmarczyk	incidentally, might anybody besides me be remotely interested in having lein accept all of :licence {...}, :license {...}, :licences [{...} ...] and :licenses [{:...} ...] to specify licences? :-P
19:03	Lajla	Oh, does Clojure have continuations by the way?
19:03	hiredman	nope
19:03	mmarczyk	hiredman: really? (that's about alpha)
19:03	mmarczyk	hiredman: despite the established meaning of alpha in lambda calculus, I mean?
19:04	Lajla	mmarczyk, I think Alan Kay says that (+ 1 2) is his vision of passing two messages to '+'
19:04	hiredman	mmarczyk: I am pretty sure it was called alpha
19:04	Lajla	And object.method(); in javascript is not.
19:04	mmarczyk	Lajla: nor does it have general tail call elimination
19:04	hiredman	clojurebot:?
19:04	Lajla	mmarczyk, I read so, must use recur.
19:04	Lajla	But I don't use proper tail recursion that often, I'm more a fan of map to be honest.
19:05	Lajla	It works better assuming your code is side-effect free.
19:05	mmarczyk	hiredman: interesting, thanks
19:06	hiredman	clojurebot: ?
19:07	hiredman	ping?
19:07	hiredman	ping?
19:07	clojurebot	PONG!
19:07	hiredman	clojurebot: history of lisp?
19:07	clojurebot	Lisp isn't a language, it's a building material.
19:07	hiredman	clojurebot: evolution of lisp?
19:07	clojurebot	lisp is the red pill
19:07	hiredman	hmmm
19:15	alexyk_	ninjudd: hmm, so it creates a Clojure map class when loaded back from Java?
19:22	ninjudd	alexyk: the map or set is created when the field is accessed in clojure
19:31	tcrayford	Lajla: you can get continuations in clojure using the cont-m monad if you want
19:33	alexyk	ninjudd: I wonder, if I were to implement it in Scala to read the map as a Scala Map type, would it make sense to use the Java above which imports clojure.lang.* and extends APersistentMap?
19:33	mmarczyk	that's not quite the same thing though :-(
19:33	mmarczyk	(that was about cont-m)
19:34	alexyk	i.e. I'd have to implement a Scala-specific way to make PersistentProtocolBufferMap right?
19:34	ninjudd	alexyk: no, that wouldn't make sense, but you can look at the code to see how i read the options from the java message
19:35	alexyk	ninjudd: OK, interesting project :)
19:36	mmarczyk	technomancy: I've sent you a pull request for the pom stuff for lein
19:37	Plouj	I guess that a number of you uses emacs for Java as well as clojure programming. My question is what do you use for looking up method definitions other than *TAGS, which are a pain because you have to manually update them.
19:39	mmarczyk	Lajla: re: your (?) SO question on Scheme for Web stuff, have you been dissatisfied with the PLT framework?
19:50	alexyk	what's the absolutely blazingly fastest way to convert a clojure map to JSON?
19:53	alexyk	lancepantz: how'd you compare using clj-json vs protobuf for TC values?
19:53	lancepantz	i think that clj-json took 2x longer than protobuf
19:54	lancepantz	let me dig up the benchmark
19:54	alexyk	lancepantz: I can live with that! is it your dog on github? :)
19:54	lancepantz	ofcourse you lose appends
19:55	Lajla	mmarczyk, what I in the end just want is not a framework, but some configuation on the server to run .scm files, the same way an instalation of php does.
19:55	alexyk	lancepantz: I'm thinking of a quick way to interop with Scala, and for Scala I'd have to write protobuf bindings.
19:56	lancepantz	actually closer than that http://code.google.com/p/thrift-protobuf-compare/wiki/Benchmarking
19:56	sexpbot	"Benchmarking - thrift-protobuf-compare - Project Hosting on Google Code"
19:57	alexyk	lancepantz: ah yes, that's what I've googled earlier :)
19:57	alexyk	funny that there's a Scala Avro binding similar to Protobufs. No Avro for Clojure nor protobuf for Scala.
19:58	alexyk	good ol' JSON is all what remains to talk
19:59	ninjudd	alexy: you don't have to write a scala wrapper for protobufs, you can just use the Java implementation directly, right?
19:59	alexyk	ninjudd: true, but I have to create a Map
19:59	mmarczyk	Lajla: perhaps the PLT docs could help you with that?
20:00	alexyk	ninjudd: and looks like it means understanding Def and etc.
20:00	ninjudd	alexyk: why exactly do you want to interop with scala?
20:00	mmarczyk	Lajla: if not, they might well be willing to provide guidance if you post to their list
20:00	alexyk	ninjudd: 'cause it'll walk my graph faster! :)
20:01	ninjudd	alexyk: what makes you think that?
20:01	mmarczyk	Lajla: there's Eli Barzilay on SO, of course, so maybe he'll answer at some point, but I'd still expect their own mailing list to be the place where you're likely to get the best answers
20:01	alexyk	I want to try to feed the same graph to Scala. The algorithm translates almost literally, as any clojure will to Map and Array. ninjudd: prior Scala experience.
20:02	alexyk	have to try at least
20:02	alexyk	not to let my Scala rust too much
20:02	alexyk	plus a recruiter found me on Github and said, ah! Scala! So many opportunities for you! :)
20:03	alexyk	although I have more Clojure now
20:03	alexyk	ninjudd: I like both, gotta try both
20:03	ninjudd	what exactly do you like about scala?
20:03	mmarczyk	Lajla: incidentally, I do think that both Clojure and Haskell can be eye-opening to a Schemer is some ways, they certainly were to me... but I gather that PLT can be very fun to work with in Web contexts (something I've never tried personally), so if you'd rather use Scheme, try and see if it works for you
20:04	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, I wouldn't use PLT then except for maybe some sxml->xml pretty printer I guess.
20:05	Lajla	But I couldn't find it in the docs.
20:05	alexyk	ninjudd: gotta go for now, will tell you whan I'm back! :)
20:05	Lajla	They just explained how to build a blog, not how to install it and run .scm files.
20:05	ninjudd	alexy: is it the lack of persistent data structures? or the awesome, java-like syntax?
20:05	mmarczyk	Lajla: that's why I think it could be useful to them if you pointed out the deficiencies in their docs
20:06	alexyk	ninjudd: the types and lack of the damn NPE :) later
20:09	alexyk	ninjudd: did I miss some awesome anti-Scala arguments? :)
20:10	ninjudd	no, i was just going to say that NullPointerExceptions aren't really the language's fault
20:10	alexyk	ninjudd: Scala is full of immutable structures and you can basically take any clojure without macros and replace vector with Array and map with Map and have a thing which is compiled the heck out of
20:11	alexyk	makes me curious to try and compare, my algorithm is just 200 lines of clojure anyway
20:12	alexyk	ninjudd: yeah, NPE is a fault of the author, but static things like OCaml/Scala will force you to use Option. I have an NPE if a number becomes nil for any reason in an arithmetic operation! (+ x y) => NPE. Gimme a break!
20:12	Lajla	mmarczyk, but I'm very selfish. =(
20:13	Hodapp	I thought about learning OCaml once, but then I went out drinking instead.
20:13	alexyk	ninjudd: I prefer clojure for my current work, clearly, but there's lots of libraries in Scala I want to use too so I kind of prefer to use both
20:14	ninjudd	alexyk: what should (+ nil 10) return?
20:14	alexyk	Hodapp: that applies to Haskell rather than OCaml :)
20:14	mmarczyk	Lajla: collect what you deserve then ;-)
20:14	Hodapp	It looks like an interesting language, and apparently can get compiled code as fast as C/C++, but I dunno if I want to learn it.
20:14	ninjudd	Hodapp: are you somehow listening the the conversation in our office right now?
20:14	alexyk	ninjudd: something nasty saying "it's not a number, you idiot!" :)
20:14	Hodapp	ninjudd: Yes.
20:14	alexyk	but not an NPE like anything else!
20:15	ninjudd	Hodapp: we were just talking about writing an LLVM compiler for clojure in OCaml
20:15	Hodapp	AHHH
20:16	alexyk	ninjudd: that's Dr Harrop's domain!
20:16	lancepantz	we were talking about it in our scrum
20:16	Lajla	Hodapp, Ocaml can, or Haskell?
20:16	Hodapp	ninjudd: Ocaml does seem to be a choice for applications like that which have a certain formal strictness to them, like theorem provers.
20:16	Hodapp	Lajla: Ocaml. Haskell, maybe.
20:17	Lajla	Hodapp, isn't OCaml slower than Haskell?
20:17	Lajla	I mean, Haskell is lazy and all.
20:17	Hodapp	Lajla: Compiled Ocaml, as I understand it, can match the performance of C due to how much can be optimized out in compilation.
20:17	ninjudd	alexyk: who's Dr. Harrop?
20:17	mmarczyk	Lajla: OCaml has to be one of the most performant languages out there, at least for single-threaded programmes
20:17	alexyk	ocaml is good
20:18	mmarczyk	Hodapp: make the "match" an "exceed"
20:18	Lajla	Hodapp, I though OCaml went to 1/2 of C's performance.
20:18	alexyk	ninjudd: a language legend :)
20:18	Hodapp	mmarczyk: Got a citation on that?
20:18	Hodapp	Lajla: Ocaml, if I remember right, can be interpreted, bytecode-compiled, or compiled to machine language, so it really depends what you're doing.
20:19	mmarczyk	oh bother, I'll look around
20:19	Lajla	Hodapp, that is true, but any language can in theory.
20:19	Lajla	You mean that OCaml as an implementation suports it?
20:19	Hodapp	Lajla: I am not talking about "in theory".
20:19	Lajla	I'm still kind of partial to Brainfuck.NET though for my site.
20:20	Hodapp	fuck all those things that have ".NET" in their name
20:20	ninjudd	alexyk: oh, i though maybe you misspelled Hodapp
20:21	mmarczyk	Hodapp: I'll rummage around my link list, but the most interesting thing I read was on the OCaml compiler being able to prove that no aliasing will occur and guarantee correctness of some transformations which a C(++) compiler wouldn't dare apply
20:21	alexyk	ninjudd: ho, Harrop is unique
20:21	mmarczyk	Hodapp: rather like Fortran, coming to think of it
20:21	Lajla	Hodapp, but this is BRAINFUCK dot net
20:22	Lajla	F# seems to be a good example of EEE though.
20:22	alexyk	ocaml makes millions on Wall St, while Haskell makes millions go drinking instead of learning it :)
20:22	mmarczyk	alexyk: :-D
20:22	alexyk	F# is ocaml on .net + .net objects
20:23	mmarczyk	well, I'm not sure that's entirely fair, apparently F# has some sort of monadic comprehension syntax borrowing ideas from Haskell... um... but I better stop now, since I don't know what I'm talking about here
20:23	Hodapp	mmarczyk: Let me dig up an interesting article on Scheme that I found that pertains to its strictness permitting some optimizations that would never have flown in C/C++...
20:24	Hodapp	mmarczyk: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~jsobel/c455-c511.updated.txt
20:25	mmarczyk	Hodapp: if "permit" here means "makes theoretically possible", than that's different to an OCaml compiler actually being known to produce exceptionally good results
20:25	mmarczyk	Hodapp: but thanks for the link
20:25	mmarczyk	(incidentally, Chez Scheme is supposedly blazing fast... I'd really want to play with the compiler some day :-()
20:26	islon	someone call help me with this exception? I cant figure it out http://pastebin.com/nbxL5XGv
20:26	Hodapp	mmarczyk: I noted down a couple links... things like Gambit-C maybe... which basically just took Scheme/Lisp code and beat the living hell out of it for several hours before emerging with a ridiculously fast implementation.
20:28	mmarczyk	Hodapp: sounds like fun :-)
20:28	Hodapp	maybe.
20:29	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, that is the EEE strategy.
20:29	Lajla	You basically extend an open standard with some proprietary elements so that people have no reason to use the open standard as the properietary standard has all that, plus more.
20:29	ataggart	Hodapp: I have no idea, but I'd advise against the way you're using refs on each stat
20:30	mmarczyk	Lajla: are you referring to Chez Scheme?
20:30	Hodapp	ataggart: what?
20:30	ataggart	erm
20:30	ataggart	lol, not you
20:30	ataggart	islon
20:30	Lajla	mmarczyk, no, to F#, and well, most .NET things.
20:30	Hodapp	screw .NET
20:30	Lajla	Hodapp, can I go first?
20:30	mmarczyk	Lajla: I'm not sure
20:30	Hodapp	sure.
20:31	islon	ataggart, yeap?
20:31	mmarczyk	Lajla: it makes sense for F# to be different from Haskell
20:31	Lajla	What I've always found intereting is that censors do not allow 'fsck' but do allow 'screw' even though they mean the exact same thing, and the latter from the word implies a more bestial approach to same.
20:31	Lajla	mmarczyk, well, F# is more OCaml than Haskel.
20:31	Lajla	But brainfuck.NET is still awesome.
20:31	mmarczyk	Lajla: it probably also makes sense for F# to be different from OCaml
20:31	Lajla	Next Whitespace.NET and Malbolge.NET
20:32	mmarczyk	but anyway, F# seemed pretty open to me
20:32	Lajla	mmarczyk, maybe, but not to be properietary.
20:32	Lajla	Is it?
20:32	Lajla	Let me look it up
20:32	Raynes	Meh, I like Haskell.
20:32	Lajla	"Microsoft Research Shared Source license agreement ("MSR-SSLA")"
20:32	Lajla	THis sounds so cryptic it has got to be evil.
20:32	mmarczyk	except Mono is probably not good enough to be a viable open platform for .NET apps in general
20:33	Raynes	I take great pride in the fact that Clojurers aren't as vocal about how they think Clojure is better than Haskell as some Haskellers appear to be the other way around.
20:33	mmarczyk	(yet? hopefully...)
20:33	mmarczyk	Raynes: oh? which Haskellers do you have in mind?
20:33	Lajla	What I find really interesting is that over 60% of the .NET developers apparently use Basic as their _only_ language.
20:33	Lajla	mmarczyk, twey.
20:34	Raynes	mmarczyk: No couple in particular. I've heard many a discussion about how much better Haskell is over Lisp in #haskell and -blah.
20:34	Lajla	He's in Finnish, he thinks lisp is a toy and Haskell is a language, but he'sreally cute and British
20:34	Lajla	Just saying 'I saw a bracket' every time they used one.
20:34	Raynes	Peaker is one.
20:35	mmarczyk	Raynes: well you have to feel for them, struggling with that terrible syntax all the time... akhem
20:35	Raynes	That's the extent of my finger pointing coughNorman Ramseycough though.
20:36	Raynes	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/355314/clojure-vs-haskell-for-web-applications/355511#355511
20:36	sexpbot	"Clojure vs Haskell for web applications? - Stack Overflow"
20:36	Raynes	"Compared with Paul Hudak, John Hughes, Simon Peyton Jones, and Phil Wadler, Rich Hickey is chopped liver :-) – Norman Ramsey Mar 24 '09 at 23:00"
20:37	Lajla	Haskell is really not a good language for outputting large quantities of strings is my guess.
20:37	Lajla	SXML is pretty handy in the end.
20:37	mmarczyk	Raynes: ah, I read that
20:37	mmarczyk	not a very nice comment, but the answer was fair enough I think
20:37	mmarczyk	not that I necessarily agree
20:37	Raynes	He went very low in that comment.
20:38	mmarczyk	I'm taking into account the date on that answer, too, I'd be more critical if he posted it today
20:40	MadWombat	any here worked with the appengine-clj library?
20:40	MadWombat	*anyone
20:41	Lajla	MadWombat, it's quite grammatical, in fact, poetic.
20:41	MadWombat	Lajla: my typo or the appengine library?
20:41	ataggart	islon: you're overwriting the defstruct player with def player
20:42	Lajla	MadWombat, the any in lieu of anyone.
20:42	mmarczyk	well, agreed on the comment, anyway, which is all the more unfortunate given the fact that the people he mentions really are great language researchers, very interesting to read...
20:43	islon	ataggart, and how I am supposed to create new players?
20:43	ataggart	however you want, just don't step on the same name
20:46	islon	ataggart, damn! i got it... how stupid of me... thanks
20:46	ataggart	np
20:48	mmarczyk	Hodapp: thanks a lot for that link, it's a really cool read :-)
20:53	mmarczyk	http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php -- I find that pretty interesting
20:53	sexpbot	"The "C is Efficient" Language Fallacy : Good Math, Bad Math"
20:54	mmarczyk	I'm prepared to believe that some hand-guidance to the C compiler could have saved the day, but it's so much better to not have to do it...
20:57	bmason	anyone else had success parsing a multipart MIME body with Ring/Compojure?
20:58	Hodapp	mmarczyk: Glad you like it :)
20:58	Hodapp	ooh, I am gonna have to read that
20:59	mmarczyk	http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2720#comment-40687 -- that's interesting too
20:59	sexpbot	"Languages best suited for scientific computing? \| Lambda the Ultimate"
20:59	mmarczyk	in that it shows how to do better in C++
21:52	Lajla	mmarczyk, will you hold my hand if I mail the guys at PLT?
21:55	mmarczyk	:-)
21:55	mmarczyk	Lajla: sure
21:55	Lajla	mmarczyk, just tell me how to start?
21:55	mmarczyk	though I can't say I know my way around their platform
21:56	Lajla	I take it they won't accept Finnish?
21:56	Lajla	Hmm, what if they have a policy of activating a worm in your PLT installation if your mail displeases them or they find it stupid?
21:56	mmarczyk	oh, I think they've got one in there which activates itself if you fail to submit an experience report
21:57	mmarczyk	I'd go and look for plt mailing list archives first, maybe you'll be able to find some answers before even writing anything that way
21:58	mmarczyk	and then, well, you had a nice and reasonable list of wants on SO
21:59	mmarczyk	http://groups.google.com/group/plt-scheme -- there's even a Google group interface
21:59	sexpbot	"PLT Scheme \| Google Groups"
22:01	mmarczyk	quite a lot of hits for "xml" plus a fair number for "unicode"
22:02	mmarczyk	from a glance at the answers, plt defaults to utf-8 when doing stuff with strings...
22:05	mmarczyk	apparently there's some useful stuff if you search for "script" too
22:05	ober2	Could not locate clojure/contrib/str_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/str_utils.clj on classpath:
22:05	ober2
22:05	ober2	unf
22:15	Lajla	mmarczyk, yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, that I misread their site and they'll go kill my family to convince me of their righteousness.
22:21	technomancy	ninjudd: ping?
22:21	ninjudd	technomancy: yo
22:21	technomancy	ninjudd: got some time to discuss hooks in the #leiningen channel?
22:22	ninjudd	technomancy: about 10 minutes, then i have to head to the airport
22:36	mmarczyk	Lajla: oh, I think they'll settle for a week of having elephants trample on you, then they'll be happy to provide pointers for the future
22:43	Lajla	mmarczyk,hmm, that is sufficiently less discipline than my loving mother provided.
22:46	Lajla	mmarczyk, do you already consider me the greatest programming alive second only to Microsoft's chief software architect?
22:55	TheBusby	Hahaha, I'll have to remember that line "the greatest programming alive second only to Microsoft's chief software architect"
22:58	Lajla	TheBusby, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Bill_Gates_in_WEF_,2007.jpg he is quite cute though.
22:59	Lajla	TheBusby, are you the greatest programmer alive second only to Lajla and Microsoft's Chief Software cutie?
23:00	TheBusby	I think "being the greatest programmer" would be like being the "fastest runner"
23:01	TheBusby	do you mean for 100m, relay, marathon, etc?
23:01	TheBusby	reminds me of old men in a barber shop arguing over who was the better boxer in their day
23:03	Lajla	TheBusby, what if I'm the best at all?
23:03	Lajla	Safe for the MCSC of course.
23:05	TheBusby	I don't have any hard evidence, but in my personal experience I've noted that people with MCSE (or various IT certifications) are usually more likely not to know what they're doing. At least in the Silicon Valley, people with the skills and the experience rarely have certs to back them up.
23:10	Lajla	TheBusby, from studying physics and maths, I noted that almost all people that were smart enough to see the farce that it was quit.
23:10	Lajla	Yeh seriously, infinitesimal, get real.
23:11	Lajla	I was basically trying to explain Rice's theorem to some IT diplomated people recently.
23:11	Lajla	I had troubles explaining to them that floats are really just natural numbers and 'float addition' is in fact no addition at all but just a bizarre function.
23:11	TheBusby	er, I didn't mean University degrees, but things like MCSE, Cisco Certs, A+ Computer certs, etc.
23:12	Lajla	TheBusby, ah, thatś even worse.
23:12	Lajla	It just means that I'm one level above you.
23:12	Lajla	Cisco providing certificates is a huge conflict of interest.
23:12	Lajla	They want as many as possible of course.
23:13	arohner	is there a way to get the list of fields from a deftype / defrecord, without instantiating it?
23:14	arohner	the java introspection also returns a bunch of const__1 , const__2, const__3 crap in addition to the actual fields
23:15	technomancy	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/hooks
23:16	Lajla	arohner, they never told you to not interupt when some-one is gloating with narcissism?
23:16	mmarczyk	technomancy: cool!
23:16	mmarczyk	I mean, it's cool to see the correct readme again
23:17	mmarczyk	let's have a look at the hooks now
23:17	technomancy	mmarczyk: the readme's still busted on the master branch
23:17	technomancy	so get your github trade secrets while they last1
23:17	technomancy	!
23:17	mmarczyk	awww
23:18	mmarczyk	I think they might be faster to get their act together if you ping them to reset their cache
23:18	technomancy	I did give em a push in #github
23:18	mmarczyk	oh... oh well
23:34	defn	hmm, wonder why i cant use "cd" with (sh "cd")
23:35	lancepantz	defn: dir is an argument if i remember right
23:36	technomancy	defn: you can't change the working dir of the JVM
23:36	technomancy	sad but true
23:37	defn	weak.. i wonder how pallet handles this with the shell scripting capability it claims
23:38	hugod	defn: shell scripts run in the shell..
23:39	lancepantz	are you in hawaii technomancy?
23:39	technomancy	lancepantz: yeah
23:40	defn	hugod: chuckle
23:40	lancepantz	must be nice :) i want to move there one day- actually never been
23:42	scottj	If a lein project depends on a and b and b depends on an older version of a, when you use a how do you know what version you'll get (and insure you'll get the one you depend on not the one b does)
23:42	tomoj	if your project explicitly depends on some version, you will get that version
23:43	tomoj	otherwise there's some algorithm maven does, I think it's something like the shortest path back to your project wins
23:45	tomoj	scottj: "the version used will be the closest one to your project in the tree of dependencies, eg. if dependencies for A, B, and C are defined as A -> B -> C -> D 2.0 and A -> E -> D 1.0, then D 1.0 will be used when building A because the path from A to D through E is shorter. You could explicitly add a dependency to D 2.0 in A to force the use of D 2.0"
23:46	scottj	tomoj: ok, is the a that b uses accessible via namespaces?
23:46	tomoj	http://maven.apache.org/guides/introduction/introduction-to-dependency-mechanism.html#Transitive_Dependencies
23:46	sexpbot	"Maven - Introduction to the Dependency Mechanism"
23:46	tomoj	you will only have access to one version of a
23:46	tomoj	(..unless there's some weird way to get two versions)
23:47	tomoj	anyway getting two versions of a clojure project would be Bad
23:59	arohner	tomoj: not running lein clean before lein deps downloads a new version can cause both jars to be on your classpath
23:59	arohner	tomoj: and yes, it's bad