#clojure – 2010-05-17

2010-05-17

00:06	defn	anyone here do anything like put jruby and clojure together?
00:07	defn	im interested in using clojure's concurrency semantics via jruby
00:09	technomancy	defn: http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-gem
00:10	defn	technomancy: yeah i saw that, is that still working?
00:10	technomancy	I think it's hard-coded to 1.0
00:10	defn	technomancy: do you have any example code anywhere?
00:10	technomancy	and transaction retries break because JRuby wraps the exceptions in a Ruby object, so Clojure is unable to catch them
00:10	technomancy	but the data structures work great
00:10	underdev	technomancy: clojure-mode 1.7.1 updated in elpa, but clojure-test-mode remains at 1.3 fyi
00:11	technomancy	defn: more like "feel free to take the whole thing it over"
00:11	defn	haha, technomancy is it worth the effort?
00:11	defn	technomancy: i think it's mostly me just wishing ruby was, in fact, clojure
00:12	technomancy	defn: if you have a reason to use ruby still then it's definitely worth it
00:12	defn	technomancy: yeah im working with a rails shop now and want to try and slowly mix clojure into things to persuade them to switch :)
00:13	technomancy	underdev: weird; I see 1.4 in M-x package-list-packages
00:13	technomancy	defn: talk to headius about the way that JRuby wraps exceptions and prevents them from getting caught by Java code
00:14	technomancy	defn: I asked him about it at JRubyConf, and he said he would add a way to turn that off
00:14	underdev	yeah, it's there now. sorry.
00:15	technomancy	cool
00:16	technomancy	defn: I don't know if it's possible to work around yet, it might take some prodding Charlie
00:16	defn	technomancy: Mr. Nutter, I presume?
00:16	technomancy	that's the one
00:17	defn	cool. well thanks for the headstart. ill fork and start perusing.
00:17	technomancy	defn: I haven't really touched Ruby in over a year (and I wrote clojure-gem half a year ago)
00:17	defn	technomancy: same here, been obsessed with clojure
00:19	technomancy	good luck. I hope it can be a gateway drug to get more rubyists into clojure
00:23	defn	technomancy: i think we already have a hook in
00:24	defn	technomancy: 4/5 of the guys i work with are obsessed with Enumerable, .tap, anything that can make ruby more functional they seem to love
00:24	defn	i think it's only a matter of time
00:25	defn	speaking of which, totally loaded question: is there enough clojure consultancy work out there for small clojure shops to survive?
00:26	defn	I remember hearing S. Halloway's shop was doing something like 30% clojure, but this was a year ago
00:26	defn	ive been thinking about trying to start a small 1-3 person thing
00:26	albino	yeah, but is that because he's steering his customers to use that technology?
00:26	defn	albino: tough to know, stu is a helluva salesman
00:27	defn	a rational salesman whom i quite appreciate
00:27	defn	but a salesman at times, nontheless
00:27	albino	my guess is he's got a lot of cusomters who are like "we don't care what you build it in" and he chooses clojure
00:27	defn	the web stuff just isn't there with clojure yet which i hope gets remedied
00:27	defn	huge chasm of documentation for compojure
00:28	defn	honestly my chief concern with clojure in general is lack of documentation
00:30	Raynes	I'm going to start heavy work on the tryclojure tutorial soon. The tutorial will be example-based and simple like the other ones, but it will not be integrated into the REPL so much that you have to type expressions to move along. Instead, I tend to make most of the tutorial generally useless unless you're trying out the examples for yourself. It will be below the REPL like the other ones, but click-through. I've never really cared for the TryHaskell-
00:30	defn	it reminds me of _why the lucky stiff's comments on the state of teaching programming
00:30	Raynes	style tutorials. Is anyone opposed to this approach?
00:30	Raynes	I think people will like it when I'm finished.
00:30	defn	Raynes: i have some weird off-hand suggestions
00:31	defn	Raynes: choose your own adventure REPL
00:31	Raynes	If people don't like it, it shouldn't be very hard for someone to go ahead and force REPL-usage, but I don't really care for that idea.
00:31	Raynes	Eh?
00:32	defn	Raynes: im sort of a code romantic, but why the lucky stiff's methods for teaching programming were revolutionary in my eye
00:32	defn	have you ever read the poignant guide?
00:33	Raynes	The idea here is to keep the REPL the REPL and keep the tutorial the tutorial. Give the users the tutorial and the REPL to try stuff out with right there on the same page. The integrated type-to-move-on tutorials seemed awkward to me.
00:33	defn	my general suggestion is: get weird with it. quit being 100% rational. make the tutorial artsy, weird, crazy even.
00:33	defn	it makes it memorable, it makes it interesting
00:33	Raynes	defn: Yes, I've read most of the poignant guide. I never cared for it.
00:34	Raynes	His stories got odd to the point of being pointless and dragged on and on, eventually I lost interest.
00:34	Raynes	But that's just me.
00:34	defn	Raynes: i see sort of where you're coming from, but here's the thing... if he had held back, i dont think it would have been as good
00:34	defn	it would have been worse i think
00:35	Raynes	I don't really think it was all that good. :\
00:35	Raynes	Maybe I just need to read it again.
00:35	defn	Raynes: i dont know, im just sort of a teacher IRL, and what he did in that book was not create a programming book for programmers
00:35	Raynes	The stories were just a bit too much for my taste.
00:35	defn	he created a book for non-programmers to approach real programming through the narrative
00:36	defn	a memorable narrative that sticks to your brain
00:36	defn	it's the method to his madness that should be examined
00:36	Raynes	I guess. :\
00:36	defn	not the result
00:36	defn	because, honestly, it worked
00:37	defn	do you know how many lines of code were run at the tryruby repl?
00:37	defn	something like 75, 80 million
00:37	Raynes	Anyway, if nobody is opposed to my approach, great. I'll continue towards that direction. I think people will like it enough to not bother with tryhaskell style repl-integration.
00:38	Raynes	I don't think it's necessary to force REPL usage, because it's kind of useless without using the REPL anyway. I just want to decouple these things.
00:38	Raynes	defn: I'm not a very creative person. I can't write why-style stuff, especially when I don't even like his stuff very much. I don't think I'm the guy for that sort of thing.
00:38	defn	what i think id like to do, if it were my project
00:39	defn	is vary the methods that i present information in
00:39	defn	having a repl on the side, next to a tutorial which gives some recipes
00:39	defn	to facilitate exploration
00:40	defn	for people who wants recipes, they have them, for people who want a bit of adventure, they have the REPL
00:40	Raynes	defn: This tutorial isn't supposed to be rocket science. It's supposed to be a simple 15 minute tutorial to get people exploring Clojure. It will walk through some examples, have you try them out with various input, explain a few things, and put you on your way.
00:40	Raynes	Just like the other tutorials.
00:40	Raynes	Anyway, we'll talk about this later. I've got to run.
00:40	defn	Raynes: im rather opinionated on this so i dont mean to sound critical
00:40	Raynes	Bai.
00:41	defn	but just like the other tutorials is what irks me :)
00:41	defn	Raynes: seeya
01:22	underdev	wow- what a coincidence. I just decided to implement my current project in clojure, after failing to find decent java integration in any of the jvm schemes. I .tar.gz'ed my .emacs.d started fresh- had no idea all that stuff in elpa got upgraded today
01:22	underdev	must be fate
02:19	jColeChanged	I'm going through project euler to learn clojure and wanted to be idiomatic if possible. If your not busy, let me know if you see any things I'm doing improperly: http://pastebin.org/243146
02:40	somnium	jColeChanged: instead of (map f (map g xs)) two alternatives are (map (comp f g) xs) and (->> xs (map f) (map g)). You may want to memoize triangle? too (some is O(n))
02:52	jColeChanged	somnium: Didn't know about either of those methods, thanks. Also, is there any contains? like function which isn't linear time?
02:56	LauJensen	Morning team
02:56	replaca	morning Lau
03:00	jColeChanged	Hi again LauJensen.
03:11	esj	Salut
03:16	vIkSiT	hmm whats the link to the protocols video again?
03:16	vIkSiT	ah here. http://vimeo.com/11236603
03:16	sexpbot	"Clojure 1.2 Protocols on Vimeo"
04:44	Raynes	LauJensen: Remember how we were talking about how horribly Arial Black was rendering when we used it for the tryclojure header? I'm running Lucid Lynx now, and it's rendering perfectly. :o
04:45	LauJensen	10.04?
04:45	Raynes	Yes.
04:45	LauJensen	Odd, that what Im running as well
04:46	Raynes	When I was on Hardy, it was really heavy.
04:48	rava	i just have to say, destructuring is my new favorite thing. ever.
04:48	rava	Its one of those things that you don't know how much you want it until you have it and then have to make do with out.
04:51	LauJensen	:)
05:11	G0SUB	when I try to build a jar of my code with lein and execute the jar I get this error - "java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: warn-on-reflection with set"
05:12	G0SUB	any idea how this can be fixed? I am setting warn-on-reflection in some files
05:17	rdsr	GOSUB: I think you have to use something like this
05:17	rdsr	(binding [warn-on-reflection true]
05:17	rdsr	...)
05:25	Raynes	warn-on-reflection can only be set in the REPL.
05:25	Raynes	It doesn't make sense elsewhere.
05:26	tomoj	is it really the repl, or just the top thread?
05:27	Raynes	Probably. Someone in here was talking about it a while back.
05:29	tomoj	probably which?
05:30	Raynes	Probably just the top thread.
05:30	Raynes	I'm not certain.
05:31	npoektop	hi! if i have a map and nil associated to a key {:key nil}, is there a way to distinguish this situation from situation when there is no :key in map?
05:32	Raynes	$(get {:key nil} :key "no key in map")
05:32	sexpbot	result:
05:32	Raynes	$(get {:key nil} :ke "no key in map")
05:32	sexpbot	result: no key in map
05:32	Raynes	Eh.
05:32	Raynes	I still haven't fixed the don't-print-nil bug.
05:33	Raynes	I've been slacking.
05:33	Raynes	Damn tryclojure.
05:33	Raynes	npoektop: The first result: was actually nil. get is what you're looking for.
05:34	npoektop	Raynes, thank you
05:36	GeoffSK	I can't get one source to successfully include another file, both have namespaces. Any examples/tutorials?
05:36	spariev	,(get {:key nil} :key "no key in map")
05:36	clojurebot	nil
05:37	rava	GeoffSK: checked your classpaths?
05:37	tomoj	GeoffSK: what do you mean "include"?
05:37	tomoj	you want to call functions from one in the other?
05:37	GeoffSK	sorry i mean :import
05:37	GeoffSK	http://pastebin.com/1xGispcD
05:37	Raynes	You want to use require.
05:37	GeoffSK	tomoj: yes.
05:37	tomoj	:import is for java classes
05:37	Raynes	Or use.
05:37	Raynes	Probably use.
05:38	Raynes	(:use namespace.of.file)
05:38	npoektop	if i make a map {:key val, :optional-key nil}, how to skip association of :optional-key there. I can do (if (nil? ...) {} {:optional-key ...}), but is there a better way?
05:38	tomoj	(:use [com.gsk.a :only (aname)])
05:38	tomoj	or (:require [com.gsk.a :as foo]) will let you call foo/aname
05:39	rava	npoektop: Would a struct make sense for it?
05:39	GeoffSK	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword (b.clj:1)
05:40	rava	npoektop: you can define the keys in a defstruct, then when initing structs any non epxlicitly referenced keys will have nil as their val
05:40	GeoffSK	tomoj: http://pastebin.com/mY5Wp42K
05:41	GeoffSK	tomoj sorry changed to symbols.
05:41	rava	,(defstruct astr :a :b :c)
05:41	clojurebot	DENIED
05:41	rava	or not..
05:41	rava	lol
05:41	npoektop	rava, no, it's ok that i will always have :optional-key even if nil in my map, but i'd like to know if there is a way to skip association of key/nil pairs.
05:41	G0SUB	Raynes, thanks for the tip.
05:42	G0SUB	when I quit slime, the swank server quits too. I remember there was a variable to toggle that behaviour. can anyone remind me?
05:42	GeoffSK	tomoj: thanks. sorted it out.
05:43	G0SUB	:dont-close
05:43	rava	npoektop: http://pastebin.com/bbR8EVJn
05:43	Raynes	GeoffSK: Unrelated, but worth pointing out: gist.github.com (and a couple of others) have Clojure specific highlighting. gist.github.com is specifically helpful because every paste is actually a git repository that people can clone, change, and push, so it's useful for helping people out with code snippets.
05:44	Raynes	G0SUB: That's it, I believe.
05:44	tomoj	apparently pastie has clojure now too
05:44	GeoffSK	raynes: thanks.
05:44	G0SUB	Raynes, yeah, but how do I tell lein to use that option when starting the server?
05:44	rava	GeoffSK: and if you go with gist, and use emacs, there is an emacs extension that ties into gist
05:45	Raynes	G0SUB: I never successfully managed to do that. Instead, I made my own swank-server startup file for sexpbot. Want me to gist it?
05:45	rava	http://github.com/defunkt/gist.el
05:45	npoektop	rava, well, it's ok, but still not what i'm looking for. Thank you anyway)
05:45	G0SUB	Raynes, I would appreciate that. thanks.
05:45	rava	npoektop: np, still new to clj so not very helpful yet :)
05:46	Raynes	G0SUB: http://gist.github.com/403600
05:46	GeoffSK	rava: i am using intellij, does emacs do better formatting of clojure?
05:46	G0SUB	Raynes, exactly what I needed. thanks.
05:47	rava	GeoffSK: The formatting is good in emacs, but I use it namely because I don't ever have to leave it while i'm working. I can: chk email, talk on irc/aim (as i am now), run repls/shells (python and clj and bash right now), and edit code
05:47	Raynes	G0SUB: Make sure you have the newest swank-clojure for that. 1.1.0 wont work.
05:47	rava	even tempted to get a coffee machine that has an ethernet jack so i can have emacs send my coffee requests :D
05:47	G0SUB	Raynes, yeah, I have the new one. 1.2.1
05:48	rava	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CoffeeMode
05:48	sexpbot	"EmacsWiki: Coffee Mode"
05:48	GeoffSK	rava: Yep. i am a little used to the DrScheme and its formatting.
05:56	npoektop	how to print a func which i define within a macro? (str #(string? %)) does not print what i want
05:56	npoektop	i'd like to get "#(string? %)"
05:57	opqdonut	you probably want to use macroexpand-1
05:57	opqdonut	or you need a level of additional quoting
05:57	opqdonut	(str (quote #(string? %)))
05:58	opqdonut	err
05:58	opqdonut	,(str (quote #(string? %)))
05:58	clojurebot	"(fn* [p1__16631] (string? p1__16631))"
05:58	opqdonut	there :)
05:58	npoektop	opqdonut, cool. thanks
06:00	Chousuke	that doesn't actually print the function though.
06:01	Chousuke	just the form that evaluates to a function
06:01	G0SUB	Raynes, on the repl ,<quit> still quits the server. M-x slime-disconnect doesn't. how do you disconnect usually?
06:01	tomoj	what counts as "actually" printing something?
06:02	Chousuke	tomoj: printing it :P
06:03	Chousuke	tomoj: I think it is important to keep the concept of forms separate from the values they evaluate to
06:03	rava	I'm missing something here..could someone show me usage of (val) ?
06:04	Chousuke	,(val (first {:k 'v}))
06:04	clojurebot	v
06:04	Fossi	:p
06:04	tomoj	Chousuke: ok, but what would make the choice of using the fn* form as the printed representation for a fn somehow fake-printing?
06:04	Chousuke	tomoj: no
06:05	rava	groovy, thanks. for some reason I just couldn't grok the doc string's explination.
06:05	Chousuke	or well. yes it would
06:05	tomoj	oh, well, the fn never arises there, so..
06:05	Chousuke	unless you take care to replicate the lexical environment as wel
06:05	Chousuke	l
06:05	tomoj	ah, heh
06:06	tomoj	if you lose information, it's fake-printing?
06:06	Chousuke	pretty much :P
06:06	tomoj	so e.g. we can't print structs (or can we now? haven't tried lately)
06:06	Chousuke	or pretty-printing, but hm
06:07	Chousuke	in this case it's just that printing forms produces something that looks like a function but is not one
06:08	tomoj	eh
06:08	tomoj	I think your metaphysics of printing is beyond me :)
06:08	Chousuke	I just don't think printing functions makes sense.
06:09	Chousuke	except the way it's done right now, which is just a "visual token" kind of thing.
06:09	tomoj	I hadn't thought about the lexical env when looking at technomancy's trick
06:09	tomoj	do there actually exist any implementations of HTCPCP?
06:10	Raynes	G0SUB: I usually exit manually in the terminal.
06:20	rava	Rest easy everyone.
06:55	LauJensen	When you guys subscribe to some blog, do you expect the feed to have all posts, or just the 10 most recent or so ?
06:56	Licenser	tomoj: I was told you found some odd behavior in the sandbox?
06:56	tomoj	just a security hole
06:56	tomoj	Raynes fixed it, I think
06:57	Raynes	No, I didn't.
06:58	tomoj	well, someone who used your github keys did, then
06:58	Licenser	tomoj: can you tell me what it was? :)
06:59	Raynes	tomoj: Nosir.
06:59	Raynes	tomoj: Nobody has committed anything to clj-sandbox but Heinz in several days.
06:59	Licenser	not true
06:59	Raynes	I've been too busy with tryclojure to work on clj-sandbox.
06:59	Licenser	you removed some fn's from the save list
06:59	tomoj	wat?
06:59	clojurebot	For Jswat: start clojure with -Xdebug -Xrunjdwp:transport=dt_socket,server=y,suspend=n,address=8888
07:00	tomoj	am I living in some parallel universe?
07:00	Raynes	Oh yeah.
07:00	Raynes	Oh, I did fix it.
07:00	Licenser	on the 14th
07:00	Licenser	:P
07:00	Raynes	tomoj: I'm sorry, dude, the last couple of days have been a whirlwind.
07:00	Licenser	tomoj: aren't we all?
07:00	Raynes	._.
07:00	Raynes	But yeah, those functions were the problems.
07:01	Licenser	but tomoj thanks for finding the hole!
07:03	tomoj	$(tomoj)
07:03	sexpbot	result: Hello, world!
07:04	tomoj	Raynes: no problem
07:04	Licenser	neat :)
07:05	Raynes	Licenser: When you start working on the def* workaround, you might want to jump to 0.4.0-SNAPSHOT.
07:06	Raynes	Following semver rules, anyway.
07:06	Licenser	Raynes: when I find any useful workaround I will but I could not dig a way up yet :(
07:07	tomoj	I was perusing the source to see if the set bug caused a vulnerability and accidentally found an unrelated issue
07:10	tomoj	brilliant
07:10	tomoj	that would go a long way towards making my emacs-hating coworkers jealous
07:10	tcrayford	:)
07:10	tcrayford	it needs some more work, but its getting there
07:12	tcrayford	and is seriously quite cool
07:12	tcrayford	uses a reporting thing like clojure-test-mode
07:14	Licenser	tomoj: nods You really have put some work in that, thanks amn!
07:14	Chousuke	is this part of the emacs refactoring thing?
07:14	tcrayford	nope
07:15	tcrayford	though the next branch will yoink some code from that
07:17	tcrayford	I should probably extract the helper functions to a common package so both can use them
07:18	tomoj	Licenser: really my first independently discovered exploit.. so it was fun
07:19	Licenser	I can imagine :)
07:20	tomoj	not that I could do anything to your machine except make it print "hello world" when it wasn't supposed to...
07:21	tomoj	I suppose I could have made sexpbot insult people in #clojure or something
07:21	esj	guys, what's the practice of putting * after some function names. Just a marker that 'this is slightly different' ?
07:21	tcrayford	yeah, that's it usually
07:21	tomoj	sometimes it's a helper function for implementing the *-less version, too, I think
07:22	tomoj	or some simpler version on which the *-less version expansd
07:22	Chousuke	if used in macros, it's usually the "driver"
07:23	Chousuke	as regular functions, it's often just "variant"
07:23	Chousuke	eg. list, list*
07:24	Licenser	tomoj: well with that you could about do anything
07:24	Chousuke	then there's bound-fn* (function), bound-fn (macro), and fn/fn* (where the latter is an implementation detail)
07:24	Licenser	once you can eval stuff you're free :P
07:25	Raynes	$eval #{1 2 3}
07:25	sexpbot	result: #{1 2 3}
07:25	Raynes	Joy!
07:25	tomoj	but only in clojure-land, the jvm security stuff still protects your box, right?
07:26	Licenser	tomoj: yes but that is bad enough :P
07:26	Licenser	you could totally mess up stuff
07:30	esj	merci, dudes
07:32	Licenser	Raynes: jvm security does not seem to cover memory :( it seems that there is no real way to do that darn it!
07:39	d2dchat	Is it possible to grab a dependency automatically from a bitbucket repo using lein?
07:39	d2dchat	I'm trying to grab this:
07:39	d2dchat	http://bitbucket.org/jonjlee/riak-java-client/wiki/Home
07:39	sexpbot	"jonjlee / riak-java-client / wiki / Home — bitbucket.org"
07:39	d2dchat	but it keeps erroring out
07:39	tcrayford	iirc it has to be a maven repo
07:40	d2dchat	tcrayford: isn't that a maven repo?
07:43	Raynes	That is a Mercurial repo.
07:52	Raynes	dnolen: Have you seen the new tryclojure design by any chance?
07:53	dnolen	Raynes: yes, looks good! my only suggestion now would be perhaps some work on the logo.
07:53	Raynes	dnolen: There is no logo. :p
07:54	rsynnott	well, there's a title
07:54	Raynes	dnolen: Do you mean the header? That's the least of my worries right now, but fair enough.
07:54	Raynes	:p
07:54	Raynes	The font does render pretty badly for some people.
07:54	Raynes	I'm going to replace the header with an image in the next version.
07:54	dnolen	Raynes: yeah, the title. but it's really coming together. only a matter of time.
07:55	dnolen	by "coming together" i mean the look, the functionality is of course fantastic.
07:55	Raynes	I'm happy you like it now. Thank LauJensen for tons of help with CSS and such. <3
07:55	rsynnott	Raynes: do you plan to let people define things at some point?
07:56	Raynes	rsynnott: Ask Licenser. ;) This one is beyond my control.
07:56	rsynnott	Though I suppose it'd be tricky to make that safe
07:57	tcrayford	,(def a 1)
07:57	clojurebot	DENIED
07:57	Raynes	It's safe. The problem is memory control. You can def something gigantic and blow the world up.
07:57	tcrayford	what are people using as imagehosts atm?
07:58	Raynes	imgur
07:58	rsynnott	Raynes: that's what I mean, yep :)
07:58	rsynnott	presumably some sort of clever sandboxing thing would be needed
07:59	rsynnott	though presumably you could do that in the current one, too, with let
07:59	tcrayford	so, duplication highlighting in emacs: http://i.imgur.com/7Z76F.png
08:00	tcrayford	if you highlight the text and press a key combo you get what var that bit duplicates with
08:02	Licenser	rsynnott: the short answer is yes the longer one, it will take some time
08:03	Licenser	rsynnott: and no you can't do it in the current one with let, since the data will be GC'ed at the end of let
08:03	tomoj	tcrayford: does it do more than look for common substrings?
08:04	tcrayford	it looks for common subsequences atm
08:04	tcrayford	I can fix that problem pretty easily though, as refactoring-mode has a load of stuff about discovering and renaming bindings in a node
08:04	Licenser	tcrayford: ideally variable names should not matter :P but that is a high sandard I know
08:04	tcrayford	they won'
08:04	tcrayford	t
08:05	tcrayford	after I finish the next bit, which I already know how to do
08:05	tomoj	I suppose extract-function is on the way?
08:05	tcrayford	I already did that
08:05	Licenser	:)
08:05	tcrayford	it breaks occasionally though
08:06	tcrayford	but still, useful
08:07	tcrayford	refactoring mode has a load more than that as well, like auto-constructing let-bindings out of a block you have selected
08:07	tomoj	so it seems we can now hack emacs in clojure?
08:07	tomoj	:D
08:07	tcrayford	:/
08:07	tomoj	s/now/for quite a while/
08:07	sexpbot	:/
08:07	tcrayford	this is done using lein and swank
08:07	tomoj	google fails me for refactoring mode
08:08	tcrayford	http://github.com/tcrayford
08:08	tcrayford	and then somewhere
08:08	tomoj	your clojure-refactoring is the first result
08:08	tcrayford	its scary how easy this stuff is to write
08:08	tcrayford	just manipulating some lists and spitting em back out
08:09	tcrayford	also, refactoring-mode needs some emacs hackery to make it actually work
08:09	tomoj	do I get it right that refactoring-mode is some external dependency you're using?
08:09	tcrayford	clojure_refactoring is a clojars project that I wrote
08:10	tcrayford	refactoring-mode is just my own bit of (terrible) elisp
08:10	tomoj	ah, I see
08:10	tcrayford	its not that good as of now, but its exam revision time, so it should get better when umbrella is working how I want
08:12	tcrayford	I need to license both projects under some liberal license as well, just not sure which one
08:12	tomoj	oh, umbrella is the duplication highlighting, and "refactoring-mode" refers to the stuff in clojure-refactoring-mode.el ?
08:12	tcrayford	yes
08:12	tomoj	I have been awake too long :(
08:12	tcrayford	hah
08:13	tcrayford	do you have any reccomendations on open source licenses?
08:13	rsynnott	tcrayford: MIT/modern BSD are simple
08:14	tcrayford	they look good enough
08:15	tcrayford	I might just use eclipse, seeing as clojure uses it (and a load of other clj projects)
08:15	tomoj	hmm
08:15	tomoj	I am imagining pretty ridiculous possibilities
08:15	tcrayford	shoot
08:15	tcrayford	I have a lot of free time at the moment, and am all open to ideas
08:16	tomoj	I don't know what "extract local" already does
08:16	tomoj	but suppose you do it, then you have the opportunity to hit a few extra keys to decide on a possible alternative
08:16	tcrayford	like what?
08:16	tomoj	if there's a let around point already, it defaults to adding the binding there
08:16	tcrayford	currently, you select a sexp inside a defn, and give it a name, then it adds it
08:16	tcrayford	yeah
08:17	tomoj	if not, it creates a let, and you can cycle the scope up and down
08:17	tcrayford	it does that if there's a let at the toplevel
08:17	tomoj	or hit some other key to make it a when-let or whatevel
08:17	tcrayford	cycling the scope is an interesting idea
08:17	tomoj	basically, vanilla clojure-mode : paredit :: paredit :: my dreams
08:18	tomoj	er, paredit : my dreams
08:18	tcrayford	yeah, roughly gotcha
08:18	tomoj	no longer is the editor just aware of micro-level syntax, it can be aware of macro-level semantics
08:18	tcrayford	it can be now, given some time
08:19	tomoj	yes, very exciting
08:19	tomoj	and I'm glad it doesn't have to all be written in elisp
08:19	tcrayford	hopefully clojure-in-clojure will add some more possibilities in this directions as well
08:19	tomoj	howso?
08:20	tcrayford	if I could find out local-vars in a sub-form of an outer-form, as opposed to having to find them using recursion, it'd be pretty neat
08:21	tcrayford	and the compiler has to do something like that anyway
08:22	tcrayford	(some-fn '(defn a [b] (+ 1 b)) '(+ 1 b)) ;; => #{b}
08:22	tcrayford	ie it'd tell you what bound vars are in a scope
08:22	tomoj	ah, I see
08:22	tcrayford	that'd be much better than searching stuff how I do now
08:23	tcrayford	currently I just look for forms that I know are binding forms
08:23	tcrayford	like let, for ,doseq etc
08:23	tcrayford	and then extract the bindings out of them
08:23	tcrayford	but if clojure could give me that, it'd be damn useful
08:24	Licenser	memory is the arch nemesis of sandboxes :(
08:25	chouser	tcrayford: you may be able to use clojure's Compiler class for that.
08:25	tcrayford	as of now?
08:26	chouser	yes
08:26	tcrayford	ooh
08:26	chouser	it's not the prettiest thing, and of course will change with c-c-in-c, but it may be doable.
08:26	chouser	and more likely accurate (if it works) than rolling one's own.
08:26	tcrayford	it's still nicer than blind recursion
08:26	tcrayford	yeah
08:27	tcrayford	and it might work with anaphoric macros (which mine won't at all)
08:27	chouser	yeah. The entrypoint you want is (clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze ...)
08:29	chouser	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/EVAL nil)
08:29	clojurebot	#<NilExpr clojure.lang.Compiler$NilExpr@927ec1>
08:30	tcrayford	awesome
08:30	tcrayford	cheers
08:30	chouser	then you need to dig into the resulting Expr tree which is a bit complicated and completely undocumented. But it understanding it is a path to enlightenment
08:30	tcrayford	yeah
08:31	tcrayford	one of the reasons I wrote refactoring-mode was to learn more about (= code data)
08:31	Licenser	tcrayford: if you want look at what clj-sandbox does to analyze code, it might help you even so it is not using the compiler stuff
08:32	tcrayford	I've been meaning to extract some parts of refactoring-mode to a clj-analysis thing
08:32	tcrayford	Licenser: what namespace should I start with?
08:32	npoektop	how to do this: (defmacro testmacro [] `{:a 'a (comment :b 'b here on some condition)})?
08:32	Licenser	top of net.licenser.sandbox
08:33	Licenser	fn-seq for example
08:33	tcrayford	tree-map is useful
08:33	Licenser	nods
08:36	Licenser	you might also want to look at dot-replace (or something like that) since it is pretty much refactoring
08:37	tcrayford	yeah
08:37	npoektop	i have (defmacro testmacro [] `{~(if true :a) ~(if true ''a)}). How to run that if only once?
08:38	tcrayford	refactoring-mode never does anything with java interop atm
08:38	Licenser	npoektop: ~@ is your friend thre
08:38	Licenser	(defmacro testmacro [] `{~@(if true [:a ''a])})
08:39	npoektop	,java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1
08:39	clojurebot	Invalid token: java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException:
08:39	Licenser	tcrayford: I know but replacing the . form is techically refactoring
08:39	npoektop	,(defmacro testmacro [] `{~@(if true [:a ''a])})
08:39	clojurebot	1
08:39	npoektop	Licenser, it does not work (
08:39	tcrayford	Licenser: what does expand-and-quote actually do?
08:39	emh	I want to type hint so that bit functions are resolved without reflection, but I want the function to work on Integer, Long and BigInteger. is there a number type hint or should I generate three versions of the function with different type hints or what?
08:40	Licenser	~@ you mean?
08:40	clojurebot	@ has nothing to do with whether sth is evaluated or not
08:40	npoektop	Licenser, it says java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1
08:40	Licenser	it takes a list and inserts the element in stead
08:40	Licenser	not sure what you want to do with ''a so
08:40	tcrayford	,(quote (quote a))
08:40	clojurebot	(quote a)
08:40	npoektop	,(defmacro testmacro [] `{~@(if true [:a 'a])})
08:40	clojurebot	1
08:41	Licenser	(defmacro testmacro [] `(hash-map ~@(if true [:a ''a])))
08:41	tcrayford	(testmacro)
08:41	Licenser	,(defmacro testmacro [] `(hash-map ~@(if true [:a ''a])))
08:41	clojurebot	DENIED
08:41	Licenser	can'T do it here
08:41	chouser	,(let [code '(fn [] (let [a 0 b 1]))] (for [method (-> (clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/EVAL code) .expr .methods) local (-> method .locals keys)] (-> local .name symbol)))
08:41	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: expr for class clojure.lang.Compiler$FnExpr
08:42	chouser	bah
08:42	Licenser	tcrayford: look at the hash-map version
08:42	Licenser	it works
08:42	tcrayford	chouser: that only fails here because of the dot expansion clj-sandbox does
08:42	tcrayford	man thanks
08:42	emh	ah. ofc, java.lang.Number
08:42	tcrayford	*many
08:43	tcrayford	if I'm ever ~wherever-you-live I owe you a beer or two
08:43	Licenser	I hate bear :P and don't worry ;)
08:43	tomoj	hmm
08:43	chouser	but note you get all the macro-generated locals that users rarely see
08:43	tomoj	,(->> (clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/EVAL '(let [a 3 b 4] a)) .fexpr .methods first .locals keys (map #(.sym %)))
08:43	clojurebot	(b a fn__16708)
08:43	tcrayford	yeah, which isn't good
08:43	Licenser	We all would be poor from buying all the beer we own otheres here
08:43	tomoj	oh, I missed your better attempt
08:43	chouser	romanb: nice!
08:43	npoektop	Licenser, thanks!
08:43	chouser	er
08:43	chouser	tomoj: nice!
08:44	Licenser	I think the rule of thumb is buy it yourself :P since in the end you have to buy others beer and other others have to buy you bear so if everyone just buys their own it's pretty fair
08:44	Licenser	save for people like chou* who know everything
08:44	tomoj	no idea why I have a FnExpr..
08:45	tomoj	but I wonder how we point to a specific part of a form and ask for only the locals there
08:45	Licenser	anyway see you later people I've to return a case that is broken
08:45	tcrayford	yeah
08:45	tcrayford	that's a harder part
08:45	tomoj	maybe you can just trim the form so that it's only the path to the leaf you want?
08:45	tcrayford	I can definitely do that
08:45	tcrayford	it currently looks like this:
08:45	tcrayford	it looks like this currently:
08:45	tomoj	would that give good results, though, I wonder?
08:46	tcrayford	(defn find-bindings-above-node
08:46	tcrayford	"Returns all binding forms above expr in node."
08:46	tcrayford	([node expr] (find-bindings-above-node node expr []))
08:46	tcrayford	([node expr bnd-syms]
08:46	tcrayford	(unique-vec
08:46	tcrayford	(flatten
08:46	tcrayford	(if (more-than-one seq? node)
08:46	tcrayford	(map #(find-bindings-above-node % expr bnd-syms)
08:46	tcrayford	(filter #(and (seq? %)
08:46	tcrayford	(rec-contains? % expr)) node))
08:46	tcrayford	(if (last-binding-form? node)
08:46	tcrayford	(add-binding-form node bnd-syms)
08:46	tcrayford	(if (binding-node? node)
08:46	tcrayford	(find-bindings-above-node (rest node)
08:46	tcrayford	expr
08:46	tcrayford	(add-binding-form node bnd-syms))
08:46	tcrayford	(if (seq? (first node))
08:46	tcrayford	(find-bindings-above-node (first node) expr bnd-syms)
08:46	tcrayford	(find-bindings-above-node (rest node) expr bnd-syms)))))))))
08:46	tcrayford	so fixing that'd be nice
08:47	tcrayford	(there's lots of stuff in there that relies on other functions, but its still horrible)
08:48	tcrayford	thankfully I have tests for a lot of stuff, so I can rework it pretty safely
08:48	tomoj	Compiler.java is...
08:49	tomoj	terrifying
08:49	chouser	doomed
08:49	tcrayford	I've tried reading the clojure source before
08:49	tomoj	how can such a beautiful language be built from something so ugly?
08:49	tcrayford	its pretty difficult
08:49	tcrayford	heh
08:49	tcrayford	have you seen the source for arc?
08:49	Licenser	tcrayford: hint: github
08:49	tomoj	nope
08:49	tcrayford	its really very nice
08:49	tcrayford	given that its all in scheme/arc
08:50	tcrayford	yeah Licenser, I realised that was a stupid thing to paste after I did it
08:50	Licenser	:P
08:50	tcrayford	http://github.com/tcrayford/clojure-refactoring/blob/master/src/clojure_refactoring/core.clj#L89
08:51	tcrayford	its still really ugly
08:51	tcrayford	tomoj: also I have code that can do that trimming out already
08:52	tomoj	cool
08:52	tcrayford	just a simple case of postwalk with recursive-contains?
08:53	tcrayford	(I think that fn is actually called rec-contains currently, but eh)
08:55	tomoj	chouser: that was 1.1?
08:55	tomoj	doesn't work in 1.2.. this will be a painful approach, I think
08:55	chouser	tomoj: my example? 1.2-ish
08:55	chouser	hm.
08:55	tomoj	Compiler's interface might change within versions, too, I bet..
08:55	tomoj	oh
08:55	chouser	yeah
08:55	tomoj	your example was specific to the kind of form you passed, I guess?
08:56	chouser	yeah, it assumes the outer is a fn
08:56	chouser	you can generally write a fn around a user-supplied expr
08:56	tomoj	yeah
09:00	tcrayford	I'm off now, cheers for the help you two
09:01	tomoj	I wonder if you did a checkpoint every time you compile, and then diff the sexps, whether you could pick up on common edit patterns
09:03	tomoj	every compile is probably not often enough
10:18	dmiller2718	rhickey: Did you see my e-mail on the interview possibility?
10:19	rhickey	dmiller2718: yes, just wading through my email after getting back from prag studio
10:20	rhickey	dmiller2718: I think you should be able to do the interview just fine
10:20	rhickey	dmiller2718: you can point to the Channel 9 one I did for more in depth on Clojure itself
10:21	cemerick	rhickey: "welcome back", as it were. :-)
10:21	rhickey	cemerick: thnks
10:21	rhickey	thanks
10:21	AWizzArd	hi rhickey wave
10:30	dmiller2718	rhickey: thanks for the vote of confidence. Figured that on the e-mail.
10:30	dmiller2718	rhickey: I'll have to go remind myself of why clojure is important and fun.
10:30	dmiller2718	rhickey: Mostly it just looks like a pile of C# code to me. :)
10:31	rhickey	dmiller2718: I had a couple of people in the class that were interested in the CLR version specifically. Hopefully they'll contact you to help out
10:33	Licenser	welcome back rhickey
10:43	tcrayford	rhickey: thankyou so much for including :line and :file metadata on vars.
11:32	mefesto	I'm trying to set a public instance field to a value in a java object but getting a "no method found". What am I doing wrong? ex: (doto (Person.) (.fname "Test"))
11:36	chouser	(let [p (Person.)] (set! (.fname p) "Test") p)
11:36	mefesto	chouser: thanks!
11:39	Licenser	hmm couldn't doto make (.fname= "Test") to (set! (.fname p) "Test") ?
11:40	Licenser	I think you are not allowed to have fnction or field names like ...= in java
11:48	jfields	what's the easiest way to convert [:a 1 :b 2] to {:a 1 :b 2}?
11:50	replaca	,(into {} (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2]))
11:50	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
11:51	jfields	,(reduce (fn [r [x y]] (assoc r x y)) {} (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2]))
11:51	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
11:51	jfields	seems awfully verbose though.
11:51	lpetit	,(apply hash-map [:a 1 :b 2])
11:51	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
11:52	replaca	lpetit: much better!
11:52	lpetit	jfields: ^^^
11:52	jfields	lpetit: exactly what I was looking for. thanks.
11:52	tomoj	I'm surprised into doesn't work without map vec
11:53	tomoj	into after partition 2, I mean
11:56	replaca	yeah, me too
11:56	chouser	Clojure's MapEntries are a kind of vector, not a kind of list.
11:57	chouser	,(vector? (first {:a 1}))
11:57	clojurebot	true
11:57	_brian2_	trying new compojure not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I created a lein new, put [compojure "0.4.0-SNAPSHOT"] in project file , then lein deps, then try to run example in repl and get Could not locate ring/adapter/jetty__init.class
11:57	replaca	chouser: it would be nice if into would take care of that for you
11:58	replaca	chouser: where it would just look for pairs of any kind
11:58	stuarthalloway	replaca: just the person I was hoping to find
11:58	stuarthalloway	replaca: any idea what object in pprint might be held by something across reloads?
11:59	replaca	stuarthalloway: not only no idea - I don't exactly understand the question
11:59	stuarthalloway	if you (use :reload-all ...) a bunch of things, over and over, the class objects themselves are never freed
12:00	stuarthalloway	causing you to run out of PermGen space quickly
12:00	replaca	stuarthalloway: my first guess would be the compiled formats
12:00	stuarthalloway	,(use :reload-all 'clojure.contrib.pprint)
12:00	clojurebot	nil
12:00	stuarthalloway	if I did that ten more times I could kill the clojurebot
12:00	replaca	wow, that's fast
12:01	replaca	I'll take a look
12:01	stuarthalloway	...assuming its memory footprint is similar to my laptop's
12:01	stuarthalloway	let me give you some code to help out
12:01	replaca	What causes the PermGen space prob? classes or something else?
12:01	stuarthalloway	classes
12:02	replaca	ok
12:02	replaca	I haven't seen that before
12:02	stuarthalloway	but if, for example, a namespace registered an instance of one of its classes with a collection in clojure.core, that instance would:
12:02	stuarthalloway	... hold onto its class
12:02	stuarthalloway	... which would hold its classloader
12:02	stuarthalloway	... which would hold all other classes held by the loader
12:03	replaca	what does "registered an ... clojure.core" mean?
12:03	technomancy	heh; "the clojurebot"... sounds like "the batman"
12:03	stuarthalloway	e.g. stuffing an instance into a mutable collection owned by core
12:03	stuarthalloway	this is unlikely in general, and esp. so in Clojure
12:03	Borkdude	chouser: just posted some comments/typo corrections on the TjoC forum
12:03	stuarthalloway	but something is doing it
12:04	chouser	Borkdude: thanks!
12:04	Borkdude	np :)
12:04	rhickey	stuarthalloway: and you're sure not just the DynamicClassLoader cache?
12:04	stuarthalloway	replaca: check out http://paste.lisp.org/display/99346
12:05	stuarthalloway	rhickey: if you run the code I just pasted with some random small namespace, the :dead-classes grow over time (expected) but the live classes all get collected
12:05	npoektop	i saw somewhere how to print a vector [a b c d e] like this "a, b, c, d, e". Does anyone know how to do that?
12:05	replaca	hmmm, what mutable collections are there in core that I could even get my grubby little hands on?
12:05	stuarthalloway	if you run it with pprint (or anything that uses pprint) no :live-classes ever get collected, and it fails fast
12:06	stuarthalloway	oh, and the gf macro is irrelevant -- left over from testing raw classloading to make sure that wasn't the culprit
12:06	Licenser	npoektop: tere are more then one way :)
12:06	stuarthalloway	replaca: I have no idea! Registering a callback with some IO system in Java itself would also do it
12:07	npoektop	Licenser, i mean it was a very simple way
12:07	replaca	stuarthalloway: don't think I do that, but I'll look more closely
12:07	replaca	stuarthalloway: thanks for the pointer
12:07	Licenser	npoektop: that wold be a function :)
12:07	rhickey	stuarthalloway: always 464?
12:07	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/390080
12:08	Licenser	look at those functions
12:08	stuarthalloway	replaca: you don't seem to be doing anything of the sort. I read through all of pprint before asking
12:08	Licenser	most interesting the last one combiner
12:08	replaca	stuarthalloway: you're a brave man
12:08	Licenser	that allows you to convert a vector to a string in a nice and customizable way
12:08	stuarthalloway	bravery is often the lack of wit to recognize danger
12:08	replaca	stuarthalloway: something with my proxies, maybe?
12:09	npoektop	Licenser, thank you )
12:09	stuarthalloway	if one of them is permanently passed off, yes, but at a quick glance the usages seemed scoped
12:09	Licenser	npoektop: welcome :)
12:10	hiredman	clojurebot: exceptions?
12:10	clojurebot	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74305
12:10	replaca	npoektop: you can do that with cl-format: (cl-format true "~{~a~^, ~}~%" [1 2 3 4 5])
12:10	stuarthalloway	rhickey: 464 what?
12:11	chouser	is there no way to tell which classes are being held?
12:11	stuarthalloway	rhickey, replaca: use -XX:MaxPermSize=32m to make the problem happen sooner
12:11	stuarthalloway	the default is 64m
12:11	replaca	stuarthalloway: thanks
12:11	stuarthalloway	chouser: with some memory debugger tool, perhaps
12:12	npoektop	replaca, wow! thank you
12:12	rhickey	stuarthalloway: leak of 464 each iteration
12:13	stuarthalloway	rhickey: yes. I assume it is the exact number of classes in pprint
12:13	replaca	rhickey: I bet that's all the classes in pprint
12:13	stuarthalloway	btw, it is not simply a leak in protocols. multimethods, or types. I tried them all standing alon and they are fine
12:14	tomoj	chouser: still, clojure doesn't usually complain about that sort of thing
12:14	replaca	stuarthalloway, rhickey: I don't use protocols or types (yet) in that code. I just converted the gen-class to proxy in my 1.1 version to KISS
12:15	replaca	It's my plan to rewrite that whole proxy part to be more functional and less O-O, but that's still a couple of months away, I think
12:45	tcrayford	chouser/tomoj: ping
12:46	tomoj	ello
12:46	tcrayford	that compiler trickery earlier won't work for defexprs
12:46	tcrayford	(expressions that begin with def something
12:47	tcrayford	was wondering if you could think up a better way to do that part, because that's the only bit I need atm
12:48	emh	what's a good way to bind a bunch of variables to be used by several tests, using let style? can you do that with a fixture?
12:48	tcrayford	yes
12:48	tcrayford	(use-fixtures :once #((def a 1) (%) (def a nil)))
12:48	tcrayford	you can't use let though, has to be def (I think)
12:49	tcrayford	though tryin wrapping the (%) call with a let
12:50	emh	what's wrong with (defmacro s [] (for [x ['c 'd]] `(def ~x 8))) ?
12:50	emh	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:50	tomoj	tcrayford: it doesn't work for fns either, does it?
12:51	tomoj	I mean, fns that are inside other fns
12:51	tcrayford	tomoj: havn't tried
12:52	emh	tcrayford: I was thinking of using "binding", but then the variables have to be defined, so I was trying to make a macro that defined them all
12:52	tcrayford	emh: use macroexpand
12:52	emh	tcrayford: k. ofc
12:52	tcrayford	or use binding and declare
12:52	tcrayford	((def c 8) (def d 8))
12:52	tcrayford	is what I get with macroexpansion
12:52	tcrayford	so you end up trying to call (8 8)
12:52	tcrayford	and hence the error
12:52	tcrayford	tomoj: you tried nested fns yet?
12:52	tomoj	yeah, no luck
12:53	tcrayford	:(
12:53	tcrayford	is there any way around this?
12:53	tcrayford	(guess I can wait and ask rich next time he's around)
12:54	tomoj	I think it just needs a different path
12:54	tcrayford	aye?
12:54	tcrayford	I couldn't see any methods that'd lead to another expr (using show on defexpr)
12:55	tcrayford	this might be much nicer once c-in-c comes around :/
12:57	tcrayford	fogus: the earlier compiler hackery won't work for expressions involving def
13:00	chouser	tcrayford: in what way does it not work?
13:00	chouser	you want to know about the 'def' names too?
13:01	fogus_	tcrayford: I'm sorry I dropped off and am not sure what you're talking about
13:01	tcrayford	oh chouser
13:01	tcrayford	fails
13:01	tcrayford	yeah
13:01	tcrayford	I can't figure them out
13:01	tcrayford	I get confused sometimes with you two :/
13:02	Licenser	Raynes: FYI since I read your mail www.try-clojure.org is the same host as tryclj.licenser.net so you can deploy yourself
13:02	tcrayford	better, if you can tell me how you're figuring them out I can do the rest myself
13:04	tcrayford	then I'll just write a multimethod dispatching on the class of the analyze&eval calls
13:05	dnolen	technomancy: so installation of swank-clojure via ELPA broken right now?
13:07	stuarthalloway	replaca, rhickey: the PermGen issue occurs with pre-proxy pprint too
13:09	Luyt	stuarthalloway: I'm afraid I found a typo in your book. It didn't deter me from reading further, tho ;-)
13:10	stuarthalloway	Luyt: Sorry about that. Please post it to http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/errata
13:10	sexpbot	"The Pragmatic Bookshelf \| Errata for Programming Clojure"
13:13	Luyt	stuarthalloway: Roger that. Page 39, (#body) instead of #(body).
13:17	_brian2_	noob question > trying the new compojure not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I created a lein new, put [compojure "0.4.0-SNAPSHOT"] in project file , then lein deps, then try to run example in repl and get Could not locate ring/adapter/jetty__init.class
13:17	rdsr	Is there something similar to immigrate (which create vars in the public namespace for each public var in the provided namespaces) for java classes???
13:18	stuarthalloway	rdsr: no. How would it work?
13:20	rdsr	StuartHalloway: I just thought that I could import all the necessary classes, without the user needing to import them explicitly
13:21	stuarthalloway	but how would it know which ones you want? Remember that you can say "import" at any time in Clojure
13:32	tcrayford	,(#{`def `defn `defstruct
13:32	tcrayford	`defrecord `defmacro `deftype `defprotocol} 'defn)
13:32	clojurebot	EOF while reading
13:32	tcrayford	,(#{`def `defn `defstruct
13:32	tcrayford	`defrecord `defmacro `deftype `defprotocol} 'defn)
13:32	clojurebot	EOF while reading
13:32	tcrayford	heh
13:33	tcrayford	that works locally
13:33	tcrayford	(it returns nil though, which puzzles me)
13:33	chouser	you're splitting the line
13:33	chouser	,(#{`def `defn `defstruct `defrecord `defmacro `deftype `defprotocol} 'defn)
13:33	clojurebot	DENIED
13:34	tcrayford	locally that shouln't matter though right?
13:34	tcrayford	I still get a nil even if I don't split the line
13:34	chouser	right
13:35	chouser	,[`map 'map]
13:35	clojurebot	[clojure.core/map map]
13:35	chouser	,(= `map 'map)
13:35	clojurebot	false
13:35	tcrayford	hah
13:35	tcrayford	had them the wrong way round
13:35	tcrayford	cheers
13:35	chouser	,(#{`map} 'map)
13:35	clojurebot	nil
13:35	chouser	,(#{'map} `map)
13:35	clojurebot	nil
13:35	chouser	,(#{`map} `map)
13:35	clojurebot	clojure.core/map
13:36	tcrayford	yeah, gotcha
13:36	tcrayford	was trying to use that to get around the whole not knowing the names for getting at the exprs of a defn
13:38	tcrayford	and then just using :arglists to get at the ones inside the def block
13:38	chouser	seems ... fragile
13:38	tcrayford	yeah :(
13:38	tcrayford	I can't figure out getting at the vars from a defn node though
13:39	tcrayford	using the compiler anyway
13:41	tcrayford	got it, I think
13:43	chouser	defn, Licenser: are you the guys working on the sandbox stuff for tryclojure, watson, etc?
13:43	tcrayford	(->>
13:43	tcrayford	'(defn a [] 1)
13:43	tcrayford	(analyze)
13:43	tcrayford	(.init)
13:43	tcrayford	(.target)
13:43	tcrayford	(.methods)
13:43	Licenser	chouser: I am defn isn't and Raynes is also helping out with the sandbox
13:43	tcrayford	(first)
13:43	tcrayford	(.locals)
13:44	tcrayford	(keys)
13:44	tcrayford	(map #(.sym %)))
13:44	tcrayford	dang
13:44	tcrayford	,(->> '(defn a [] 1) (analyze) (.init) (.target) (.methods) (first) (.locals) (keys) (map #(.sym %)))
13:44	clojurebot	DENIED
13:44	chouser	tcrayford: please use paste for multi-line posts
13:45	tcrayford	yeah I'm dumb
13:45	tcrayford	sorry
13:45	chouser	Licenser: are you trying to work in some way to allow 'def'? Have you considered throw-away namespaces?
13:45	Raynes	chouser: Licenser is the primary developer, but I help out every now and then (on clj-sandbox). I'm the developer of tryclojure, and defn is the developer of walton.
13:45	Raynes	All three of those projects use licenser.
13:46	Licenser	chouser: yes and yes. I have a blog post on the issue to finish that describes the issues there since I found in all my research no satisfying solution yet
13:46	Licenser	problem is as soon as you add some kind of def there is a way to flood the memory
13:46	chouser	surely you can temporarily flood memory anyway.
13:46	Raynes	When I say "use licenser" I mean, because he knows more about security than either of us, and both projects use clj-sandbox.
13:46	Licenser	or it makes it so horribly uncompfortable to use the sandbox that you'd not like to do it
13:46	Raynes	<3 Licenser
13:47	Licenser	chouser: not with the current sandbox
13:47	Raynes	Not with timeouts anyway.
13:47	Raynes	If you set the timeouts to something sane, there shouldn't be a way to flood memory.
13:47	chouser	right, timeouts -- why not on timeout clear the namespace?
13:48	Licenser	chouser: I'm not 100% sure if that even help
13:48	Licenser	+s
13:48	Raynes	Because then you could prevent it from timing out, but keep defing things until memory is flooded.
13:48	chouser	delete it, even. Give each form you want to eval a fresh new namespace to play in, and delete it when they're done.
13:48	chouser	how could you prevent it from timing out?
13:49	technomancy	dnolen: works for me. but you don't really need swank-clojure.el anymore, see the latest swank-clojure readme.
13:49	Licenser	plus the fact that if the timeout is shourt enough to have it die def is no use
13:49	Raynes	Don't do any computations that make it timeout.
13:49	Licenser	allowing def only makes sense if you allow it to be persistant for the entire session
13:49	Licenser	that means a lifetime that is extended by every following request
13:50	chouser	are you sure that's true?
13:50	chouser	it seems to me it'd be useful to have several def's, defn's etc as you do in a normal clojure file, then run them all at once and be done.
13:51	Licenser	chouser: ah you want them to be persistant over a file, but that won't be too much help for something like try-clojure or the bot
13:51	Licenser	since they don't have 'one file' but rather 'one session'
13:51	chouser	if you wanted to give an impression of a more stable session without requiring sever-side storage resources, why not rebuild the session (re-run the entire page of code) for each send to the server.
13:52	Raynes	I'm not sure that would make such sense.
13:52	Raynes	I'm not sure how that would help, anyway.
13:53	chouser	one of the problems with disallowing def is that code I normally write in a file cannot be used. it has to be re-structured into a standalone expression using let or whatever.
13:53	Licenser	chouser: hmm that isn't a bad idea
13:53	Licenser	but that is a application solution not a library one
13:53	chouser	you could at least solve that problem.
13:53	Licenser	sorry I'm so critic, I want to find a good solution that is rather unviersal and suited to be taken into a library
13:54	Raynes	Oh, I see.
13:54	Raynes	Sorry, I've been up a long time. I had to read chouser's message 10 times to get what he was saying.
13:54	Raynes	:(
13:55	Raynes	That is indeed an option, but it would be slow.
13:55	Raynes	Could have an "enable def (slower)" option.
13:56	chouser	slower than what?
13:57	Licenser	chouser: true so we could store the history of (non exeption stuff) in the session and the try-clojure side could have a working def :)
13:57	Raynes	chouser: If you have to reload every send, it would take a little while for everyting to re-run.
13:57	Licenser	hmm the sandbox could actually hold that history
13:57	Licenser	but then that would be bad in some way since you don#t expect it but you could make a flag
13:57	Licenser	thinks
13:59	Raynes	Blah.
13:59	Licenser	it technically does not solve the problem but it is a workaround untill there is a good solution
14:00	Licenser	Raynes: why blah?
14:00	Raynes	I accidentally logged out.
14:00	Licenser	but chouser will deleting a namespace force everything to be GC'ed in there?
14:00	chouser	you'd want to double-check, but I think so. The only thing pointing to the values will be the vars, and the only thing point to the vars will be the namespace.
14:00	Raynes	Anyway, if you re-run the "file" on every send, of course it will be slower.
14:01	chouser	so delete the namespace and that ought to do it.
14:01	chouser	Raynes: slower than what? re-running a 'let' with eveything in it each time?
14:01	Licenser	chouser: what is wtih (def a (ref '())) (def b (ref (list a))) (dosync (alter a conj b))?
14:01	Raynes	chouser: Slower than a normal REPL.
14:02	Licenser	Raynes: everyting web based is slower then the normal repl :P
14:02	chouser	Raynes: well sure -- normal trading of space for speed.
14:03	chouser	Licenser: JVM GC handles reference loops just fine. once both a and b are gone, it shouldn't be a problem.
14:03	Licenser	cool
14:05	Licenser	chouser: I'll try a version of sandbox that tears down the namespace after each run and save everyting successfull
14:05	Licenser	but that will cause the sandbox to time out real quick :(
14:05	Licenser	so this is no real good solution either I fear :(
14:06	chouser	you think that creating or deleting a namespace will be very slow?
14:07	Licenser	no but running the entire history will
14:08	Licenser	hmm one could just single out the defs and save them
14:08	tcrayford	if I have a seq of vecs of the form ([k v]), how can I turn that seq into a map?
14:08	Licenser	that is a compomise
14:10	Borkdude	tcrayford: (into {} [[1 2] [3 4]]) ?
14:11	tcrayford	that works
14:11	tcrayford	cheers
14:13	Licenser	chouser: thanks anyway :) I'll look into that
14:19	Borkdude	any ideas for default metasyntactic variable names in Clojure, or foo, bar, baz still going strong?
14:26	defn	dog, cat, fish
14:26	defn	:D
14:27	chouser	if you check rhickey slides I think you'll see a lot of fred, ethyl, ricky, lucy
14:28	tcrayford	chouser: got the defn stuff working now, cheers for the help earlier today
14:28	Borkdude	Python has names from Monty Python, what would be suited for Clojure... funny java class names from the past, or Common Lisp car,cdr antiquities?
14:28	chouser	tcrayford: sure. Maybe someday I can use your work.
14:28	arkahn	Programming Clojure was reviewed on slashdot.org ^^
14:30	Borkdude	chouser: maybe names from the great persons in computer science history? Turing, McCarthy, Hickey? :P
14:32	Borkdude	chouser: obviously those names you mention are from some TV series I don't know.. I googled for it
14:32	cemerick	ricky and lucy I knew -- fred and ethyl didn't ring any bells
14:33	rhickey	ethel
14:33	rhickey	I Love Lucy
14:33	cemerick	my first guess re: fred & ethel were the honeymooners
14:34	chouser	Ricky and Lucy's friends.
14:34	Borkdude	ethyl is something that can get you warm also though
14:34	cemerick	chouser: thank goodness for google
14:35	cemerick	rhickey is either laughing his ass off or facepalming right now :-)
14:36	chouser	Which is fine until we have some new reference type named 'lucy' that claims to change it's state over time, but is actually just lying about it.
14:36	cemerick	bah, I almost get that joke.
14:36	chouser	cemerick: Am I not younger than you?
14:37	cemerick	chouser: no idea -- recently turned 30 here
14:37	chouser	we seem to be on the wrongs sides of this conversation.
14:37	chouser	ah, indeed. So I guess maybe the 4 years I have on you is enough to up my awareness of ancient TV shows.
14:38	cemerick	I've never watched much TV, so most pop culture reference go right over my head.
14:38	cemerick	Cosby was the first sitcom that I have any comprehensive memory of.
14:38	cemerick	or maybe the A-Team
14:39	Borkdude	chouser: you may also be geographically advantaged in your knowledge of this series?
14:39	chouser	Borkdude: probably not compared to cemerick
14:39	jkkramer	anyone know why elpa keeps telling me "File exists: /Users/xxx/.emacs.d/elpa/clojure-mode-1.7.1/clojure-model.el" and then just sits there when i try to install clojure-test-mode or swank-clojure?
14:39	cemerick	geography plays into this?
14:40	chouser	though I was under the impression Lucy was more popular in Europe than it was here. But I don't know where I picked up that idea.
14:40	Borkdude	cemerick: of course, why would I know an ancient American series?
14:40	jkkramer	i tried deleting ~/.emacs.d/elpa altogether and starting fresh, no luck
14:40	cemerick	Borkdude: oh, I thought you were comparing east coast vs. the interior.
14:41	tcrayford	jkkrammer: are you using OSX and deleting the files with the finder?
14:41	Borkdude	cemerick: I had no idea where you both were from, but now I know you are either from the coast or interior
14:41	jkkramer	i'm using osx but deleting the files with rm -rf
14:41	tcrayford	weird then
14:41	cemerick	Pop culture has historically taken some time to migrate to the interior, at least that's been my impression when traveling.
14:41	cemerick	Borkdude: I'm in Massachusetts.
14:41	tcrayford	have you tried `cat ~/.emacs.d/elpa/clojure-mode-1.7.1/clojure-mode.el
14:42	Borkdude	cemerick: ah
14:42	jkkramer	tcrayford: the file is there, and looks normal
14:43	tcrayford	weird
14:43	jkkramer	starting from scratch, clojure-mode installs normally, but then clojure-test-mode fails. if i do clojure-test-mode first, it seems to install clojure-mode, slime, and slime-repl, but not swank-clojure. trying to install swank-clojure then fails
14:43	jkkramer	this is using aquamacs, btw
14:44	jkkramer	maybe i should bite the bullet and use regular emacs
14:44	drewr	no bullet-biting required; it's the sensible choice
14:44	tcrayford	there's a good cocoa fork somewhere about on github that has proper fullscreen support
14:44	technomancy	jkkramer: I've fixed that bug in package.el, but it hasn't been patched upstream yet. =(
14:44	tcrayford	(which I've been using for months)
14:45	tcrayford	technomancy: umbrella nearly works without caring about variable names
14:45	jkkramer	technomancy: ah, shucks. is the patch somewhere i can get to, then apply it manually?
14:45	lancepantz	i had not problem with aquamacs and the aquamacs-starter-kit
14:47	technomancy	jkkramer: check my package.el repo on github
14:48	jkkramer	technomancy: thanks
14:49	bmason	anyone else got this error with clojure.contrib.sql, calling "transaction"?
14:49	bmason	No matching method found: println for class swank.util.io.proxy$java.io.StringWriter$0
14:49	hugod	tcrayford: how do you get fullscreen with the cocoa port - I couldn't find a way of getting rid of the apple menu...
14:50	tcrayford	hugod: using a patched version I found on github, that has ns-toggle-fullscreen as a builtin
14:50	bmason	I see this in the backtrace: 2: clojure.contrib.sql.internal$print_update_counts__2085.invoke(internal.clj:132)
14:52	stuarthalloway	bmason: that should be fixed on edge clojure
14:53	bmason	I'm running snapshot 1.2 right now
14:53	polypus	gearing up to give netbeans and eclipse another go. curious as to how much of paredit features are implemented in their respective clojure plugins?
14:53	bmason	is that different from edge?
14:53	hugod	tcrayford: thanks, found it
14:53	lancepantz	polypus: netbeans has paredit?
14:54	stuarthalloway	bmason: shouldn't be... checking
14:54	bmason	lein deps should pull down most recent right?
14:54	cemerick	polypus: both have very limited support; counterclockwise (eclipse) is ahead on that count, but not by much AFAIK
14:55	polypus	lancepantz: that's what i'm trying to find out. i read that ccw has paredit-like features, but google code seems to be down, so can't try
14:55	lancepantz	ah, that'd be cool
14:55	polypus	cemerick: ty. which do you prefer?
14:55	stuarthalloway	bmason: how recent is your snapshot? There is a May 7 commit that should fix that
14:55	cemerick	polypus: enclojure (netbeans)
14:56	bmason	hmm... not sure how to check that
14:56	bmason	I just ran lein deps... I was assuming that would pick up latest
14:56	cemerick	polypus: very brief impressions of the various environments are at the bottom here: http://bit.ly/bvjSts
14:56	sexpbot	"The Ideal Clojure Development Environment - Chas Emerick - Muck and Brass"
14:57	polypus	cemerick: ty. reading now
14:57	stuarthalloway	bmason: lein deps doesn't clean out old stuff unless you run "lein clean" first
14:57	bmason	stuarthalloway: clojure-contrib-1.2.0-20100507.230536-107.jar
14:58	bmason	kk, I'll do clean
14:59	bmason	ok, after that it seems to have pulled the same jar
14:59	bmason	it didn't pull updates from the server it just copied from the local cache
15:01	jkkramer	technomancy: your package.el worked. the new versions of clojure-mode et al are awesome, thanks!
15:01	stuarthalloway	bmason: what is the name of contrib in your project.clj?
15:02	tcrayford	cemerick: does netbeans/etc have a decent clojure debugging experience?
15:02	bmason	stuarthalloway: [org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"]
15:02	cemerick	tcrayford: in what sense?
15:03	stuarthalloway	bmason: hmm, sounds right
15:03	stuarthalloway	it is the clojure jar that has the bugfix, btw
15:03	polypus	cemerick: does enclojure do auto-indentation, rainbow parens, and barfage/slurpage?
15:03	bmason	ah
15:03	cemerick	polypus: yes, no, and....what? :-)
15:04	lancepantz	hahahaha
15:04	tcrayford	cemerick: as in, better than you get from a repl etc
15:04	bmason	stuarthalloway: now, my clojure dep is written as [org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]
15:04	Borkdude	polypus: barfage/slurpage is that paredit functionality?
15:04	stuarthalloway	bmason: also sounds right -- does it get you a build later than May 7?
15:04	bmason	and the jar is clojure-1.2.0-master-20100507.230258-69.jar
15:05	polypus	cemerick & Borkdude: yeah when you pull in or spit out stuff from a sexp. i use that a lot
15:05	cemerick	tcrayford: well, you can set breakpoints in clojure code, and step around as you'd expect. Last time I used it, the variables console didn't show "pretty" versions of clojure values, which is its main shortcoming. The NetBeans-default toString representation is pretty reasonable.
15:06	polypus	also splice and raise
15:06	cemerick	That may have already been improved since the last time I used the debugger, tho.
15:06	polypus	are indespensable
15:06	lancepantz	polypus: i think paredit is emacs only, there was something about limited similar functionality in vim a few weeks ago
15:06	cemerick	polypus: I largely have no idea what you're talking about. :-) Sorry. These are paredit terms?
15:06	Borkdude	polypus: I recently discovered that, it's very useful indeed
15:06	polypus	cemerick: yeah
15:07	lancepantz	i recently discovered paredit too, pretty great
15:07	Borkdude	cemerick: I think some paredit things are in Counter Clockwise
15:07	Borkdude	but it's unclear to me how far they/he got
15:07	cemerick	OK. Well, CCW seems to focus more on that. Enclojure has good selection/navigation shortcuts, but nothing that modifies code.
15:08	cemerick	I'm not familiar with paredit at all, so I'm not in a position to say much more than that.
15:08	tcrayford	I'm not sure I can even imagine editing lisp these days without paredit :/
15:08	polypus	cemerick: cool, thanks for the info
15:09	bmason	yeah, an IDE without paredit functionality might be a dealbreaker for me too
15:09	cemerick	heh, everyone has their 80/20 :-)
15:09	bmason	I've been looking at moving to netbeans but not having paredit would be a significant loss
15:10	polypus	tcrayford: same, but some things about emacs annoy me. my ideal environment would be a simple text editor like textmate with full repl and paredit support
15:10	Borkdude	cemerick: what is the JVM tooling you meant on Twitter?
15:10	tcrayford	I'm debating applying to jetbrains and seeing if they'll support me writing proper refactoring support + all the tooling I've done for emacs for intellij
15:10	tcrayford	seeing as I already know how to do ~90% of the stuff in cmerick's post
15:11	chouser	interesting. not netbeans?
15:11	cemerick	Borkdude: debugging, profiling, code coverage tools, and then all the simpler stuff that you'd expect in a Java dev environment.
15:12	tcrayford	chouser: not sure if I'd get commercial support with netbeans
15:12	chouser	ah
15:12	tcrayford	it'd be an interesting summer project or summat
15:12	cemerick	NetBeans appears to be a JavaFx-only zone these days w.r.t. new dev.
15:13	cemerick	That's harsh and a little disingenuous, but that's my overall impression atm.
15:13	tcrayford	and like you said, Intellij already commercially supports la clojure development
15:13	cemerick	tcrayford: Its pace seems to suggest that it's decidedly a part-time thing for the one guy they've got on it. shrug
15:15	alexyk	is there a version of get-in which returns a default?
15:15	tcrayford	cemerick: I'm just wondering if they'd be willing to support me (just food) to hack on it remotely over a summer.
15:15	cemerick	tcrayford: seems like it's worth a shot in any case :-)
15:15	tcrayford	unfortunately it'd have to be the summer after the coming one, already got an apprenticeship lined up
15:16	alexyk	tcrayford: I'd ask for shelter and good sex as well while at it. Stellar code is worth it.
15:16	Borkdude	alexyk: (or (get-in [:a "foo"] [:b]) "default") ?
15:16	bmason	what's the naming scheme on the clojure & clojure.contrib jars?
15:17	alexyk	Borkdude: yeah, I can or it myself for sire, but was wondering for a built-in
15:17	bmason	is there a way to figure out from clojure-1.2.0-master-20100507.230258-69.jar what date it was modified?
15:18	stuarthalloway	bmason: the bit after -master is the date
15:18	alexyk	bmason: I guess this is when it's built by the integration server after a push, so should coincide
15:18	lancepantz	heheh
15:18	bmason	ah ok
15:18	bmason	yeah I guess it is 2010 :)
15:19	Licenser	2010/05/07?
15:19	stuarthalloway	bmason: you are back ten days compared to http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT/
15:19	sexpbot	"Index of /snapshots/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT/"
15:19	alexyk	stuarthalloway: what's the state of the last-var-wins battle? Are you holding the fort?
15:19	bmason	ah, that makes sense
15:19	alexyk	stuarthalloway: against cemerick's cavalry?
15:19	stuarthalloway	alexyk: may turn it back off, undecided
15:20	Licenser	alexyk: the last var won
15:20	alexyk	stuarthalloway: perhaps a command-line option?
15:20	alexyk	making a warning an error if desired or vice versa
15:20	tcrayford	stuarthalloway: to throw in my two-cents (as a user), I like it
15:20	stuarthalloway	alexyk: this and other forms of added complexity have been discussed
15:21	cemerick	alexyk: heh, just trying to keep things as simple as possible
15:22	alexyk	cemerick: I was often befuddled when I do a use and just one puny conflict rukins it for me. Then I go into ns-magic to find the var and unalias it like a dirty var it is. So there last var would help... but it is unclean. Hard to decide!
15:22	alexyk	ruins
15:22	bmason	technomancy: any ideas why "lein clean && lein deps" would still leave me on a 10 day old snapshot?
15:22	Borkdude	alexyk: hmm the get-in doesn't take a default value, maybe it would be nice if it could do: (reduce #(get %1 %2 "default") {:a "foo"} [:b]) indeed
15:23	alexyk	Borkdude: yeah, and would be consistent with get.
15:23	cemerick	alexyk: a good argument for not using use of course :-)
15:23	tcrayford	are there any scalars in clojure that allow metadata (apart from vars)
15:23	alexyk	bmason: do you have the snapshot repos in project.clj?
15:24	bmason	alexyk: what if the functionality were configurable, so you could say wipe out the old vars when I'm in my dev environment but not in production?
15:24	opqdonut	tcrayford: symbols?
15:24	tcrayford	opqdonut: cheers
15:24	bmason	alexyk: [org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]
15:24	bmason	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"]
15:24	alexyk	bmason: I guess stuarthalloway dislikes complexity. Then optimizing for lowest overall complexity of the Universe becomes hard :)
15:24	hiredman	vars are "scalars"?
15:24	bmason	:-D
15:25	tcrayford	ish
15:25	tcrayford	well they aren't
15:25	alexyk	which I agree with and it needs a bunch of gurus to estimate the expected perceived complexity
15:25	chouser	tcrayford: symbols
15:25	tcrayford	symbols work fine though
15:25	opqdonut	I guess he meant "non-collections"
15:25	tcrayford	yeah
15:26	alexyk	bmason: you need to specify the repos where the snapshots come from separately
15:26	hiredman	scalar seems like such an arbitrary distiction
15:26	bmason	alexyk: what do you mean?
15:26	tcrayford	google definitions has the following (amongst others) under scalar: a variable quantity that cannot be resolved into components
15:26	alexyk	oh wait, lein's supposed to know about them
15:26	bmason	yeah, lein comes with 4 standard repos
15:27	bmason	I wonder if I need the org.clojure/ qualifier...
15:27	alexyk	bmason: right, specifying -SNAPSHOT should be enough as lein knows about the usual suspect repos. Unless you have a very old one.
15:27	hiredman	clojure numbers can be bigdecimals, which technicalling are composed of two parts
15:27	alexyk	you can specify your own repos like, :repositories {"incanter" "http://repo.incanter.org"}
15:27	hiredman	so then numbers aren't scalars?
15:27	hiredman	or only are sometimes?
15:28	alexyk	bmason: looks right to me
15:28	hiredman	scalarness is an abstraction leak
15:28	Borkdude	hiredman: maybe only 1 and 0 are scalars
15:29	alexyk	bmason: http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure/
15:29	sexpbot	"clojure [Hudson]"
15:29	hiredman	Borkdude: how so?
15:29	alexyk	they just built a new one 24 minutes ago
15:29	alexyk	first time after 5/7
15:29	bmason	hehe
15:29	bmason	maybe things just haven't updated yet
15:29	Borkdude	because every other thing in memory seems to be composed from them
15:29	alexyk	http://build.clojure.org/ has all
15:29	sexpbot	"Dashboard [Hudson]"
15:29	hiredman	1 and 0 don't exist, just varying levels of electrical current
15:30	hiredman	just because it is possible to represent something as a single unit it memory, do we want to call it a scalar and lock ourselves into that?
15:30	alexyk	hipertracker: heads and tails do exist! (throws a coin)
15:31	alexyk	hiredman I meant
15:31	Borkdude	hiredman: maybe then look for a fifth mutable thing in Clojure, that is smallar than an atom?
15:31	tcrayford	hiredman: I was asking syntactically more than anything
15:31	hiredman	tcrayford: what do scalars have to do with syntax?
15:32	bmason	so... it sounds like caches probably just haven't updated yet for the new build
15:32	tcrayford	was looking for something that wasn't a literal collection, but yet still supported metadata
15:32	Borkdude	hiredman: hmm, if it would be the most atomic thing, would it still be mutable?
15:32	hiredman	anyway, "scalars" just rubs me the wrong way
15:32	hiredman	Borkdude: what do scalars have to do with mutability?
15:32	tcrayford	it does now I've thought about it
15:32	Borkdude	hiredman: since you went into the electronical world, I was thinking electrons
15:33	Borkdude	and atoms clearly exist in Clojure
15:33	Borkdude	never mind ;)
15:33	hiredman	is a long a scalar on 32 bit machines?
15:33	hiredman	they can call the chapter whatever they want
15:34	tcrayford	and then they cover all the non-collection types in there
15:34	hiredman	it doesn't make "scalars" less annoying
15:34	tcrayford	aye
15:34	turbofail	that's what we need... a book on clojure written in the style of james joyce
15:34	tcrayford	that was where I thought of that name for what I was trying to express
15:34	tcrayford	but it doesn't really work
15:35	hiredman	if symbols are implemented as records via defcrecord, are they still "scalars" ?
15:36	hiredman	are ratios really scalars?
15:36	Borkdude	hiredman: is something that can contain metadata still a scalar?
15:36	chouser	hiredman: the book's not in print. we're open to suggestions.
15:37	stuarthalloway	chouser: I think you should indeed print it :-)
15:37	chouser	stuarthalloway: heh
15:37	Borkdude	I printed it partly today
15:37	tcrayford	anybody got a decent setup with lein with regards to where you put integration tests?
15:37	tcrayford	guess I can nest them under ./test
15:38	hiredman	chouser: "On things not usually considered to be a collection of other things"
15:38	chouser	heh, nice.
15:39	Borkdude	On simple types?
15:39	tcrayford	who says that maps aren't simple
15:40	Borkdude	tcrayford: they are pretty simple to use, hmm, point taken
15:43	Borkdude	On single value data types?
15:43	tcrayford	misleading, numbers aren't a single value data type (if they were there could only be one number)
15:43	Borkdude	tcrayford: strings are in that sense also a composite of chars
15:43	Borkdude	so yes, hmm
15:44	tcrayford	arc calls them "atoms" :P
15:44	tcrayford	I've used (def lone? (complement coll?)) before
15:44	Borkdude	Maybe scalar isn't so bad after all ;)
15:47	hiredman	tcrayford: well, are java collections scalars?
15:47	hiredman	because coll? is only true for clojure collections
15:48	tcrayford	you could probably adapt lone? so that it works for the type of things we're talking about
15:48	tcrayford	still not sure what to call them though
15:49	Borkdude	Non-persistent bastards
15:53	hiredman	Borkdude: 1 is pretty persistent, as long as it's not auto promoted to BigDecimal at some point
15:57	metaperl_	broken link on this page ( http://clojure.org/getting_started ) --- """Also, Sean Devlin has put together a series of screencasts showing how to install several Clojure editing modes. Thanks to all!"""
15:57	fogus_	I was hoping people would read that chapter as "On Scala" :p
16:00	Borkdude	fogus_: no but you got me interested a little more in Haskell as I progress
16:01	fogus_	Borkdude: That makes two of us
16:02	arkahn	why does (if-let [x nil] ...) bomb out? : / I thought it was supposed to go to an 'else' condition
16:02	Borkdude	,(doc if-let)
16:02	clojurebot	"([bindings then] [bindings then else & oldform]); bindings => binding-form test If test is true, evaluates then with binding-form bound to the value of test, if not, yields else"
16:03	Chousuke	oldform? :/
16:03	Chousuke	~def if-let
16:03	Borkdude	,(if-let [x nil] "true" "false")
16:03	clojurebot	"false"
16:04	Chousuke	eh, what's wrong with the def lookup :(
16:04	arkahn	oh... at my repl, it bombs
16:04	arkahn	1.1.0
16:04	Borkdude	,(clojure-version)
16:04	clojurebot	"1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
16:04	tcrayford	works here at 1.2
16:04	Chousuke	what does the exception message say?
16:04	Borkdude	arkahn: maybe paste the whole expression?
16:05	tcrayford	clojurebot: why are you so slow looking up the if-let definition
16:05	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:05	hiredman	and I ended up at the wrong line number
16:05	Chousuke	ah, right, oldform is backwards "compatibility" :P
16:05	hiredman	could just be github being dumb too
16:06	Chousuke	if-let used to be (if-let x foo ...)
16:06	arkahn	wait ... now it works ... looking....
16:07	arkahn	ugh .. sorry, I guess the repl doesn't like multiline input
16:07	arkahn	that was my problem
16:09	tcrayford	I need a better name for "replacing all symbols that could be bound to something with fixed symbols"
16:16	replaca	stuarthalloway: you there?
16:16	stuarthalloway	sorta :-)
16:16	replaca	stuarthalloway: so you deleted pprint_base and dispatch altogether, right?
16:17	stuarthalloway	replace: I removed files being loaded at the top pprint to isolate cl_format
16:18	stuarthalloway	then deleted code from the bottom of cl_format working up
16:19	replaca	cool, so you still had both pprint_base and cl_format, right?
16:20	replaca	I have no idea why just loading that fn could cause a problem
16:20	replaca	but I can do a bunch more stuff to simplify and also look at what a profiler tells me
16:21	bmason	,(parse (java.io.StringReader. "<foo><bar /></foo>"))
16:21	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: parse in this context
16:22	stuarthalloway	replaca: I suspect the problem is nonlocal to the symptom
16:22	bmason	hmm... getting No matching method found: parse for class com.sun.org.apache.xerces.internal.jaxp.SAXParserImpl
16:22	replaca	stuarthalloway: do you see this problem with the new clojure.pprint as well?
16:23	bmason	am I doing something wrong?
16:25	stuarthalloway	replaca: did not try it
16:25	replaca	stuarthalloway: ok, I'll try that flavor too. I won't get to it until tonight
16:25	alexyk	when trying to prepend an element to a vector with cons, I get a thing which looks right, but has a type Cons:
16:25	alexyk	,(type (cons 1 [2 3]))
16:25	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
16:26	alexyk	,(cons 1 [2 3])
16:26	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
16:26	alexyk	,(type (cons 1 '(2 3)))
16:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
16:26	alexyk	,(cons 1 '(2 3))
16:26	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
16:26	phobbs	I'm having trouble setting up slime
16:26	alexyk	what have we here?
16:27	phobbs	it won't bring up a slime buffer, but it does bring up an inferior-lisp buffer
16:27	replaca	alexyk: it would appear we have a cons :-)
16:28	alexyk	replaca: yeah :)
16:28	bozhidar	phobbs: are you using slime from ELPA?
16:28	alexyk	what's the fastest way to prepend an element to a vector and have a vector as the result?
16:29	stuarthalloway_	alexyk: you should generally not do that
16:30	stuarthalloway_	by "fastest" are you talking developer ease or execution speed
16:30	alexyk	stuarthalloway_: true... but say I want to?
16:30	alexyk	stuarthalloway_: execution
16:30	phobbs	yes, using ELPA
16:30	phobbs	I've tried it emacs -q and it works
16:30	LauJensen	Im done cooking: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2010/05/refresh-your-cache--best-in-class-has-been-baked.html
16:30	sexpbot	"Best In Class: Refresh your cache - Best In Class has been baked"
16:30	phobbs	so something in my config is supressing it
16:32	ninjudd	alexy: why not just use a list? those are optimized for prepending
16:34	stuarthalloway	alexy: idiomatically, use (into [] ...)
16:34	ninjudd	alexy: then just do (vec list) at the end when you want a vector
16:35	alexyk	ninjudd: yeah; what I do is drag a vector of parameters [x y z u v] across functions. Now I modify x and glue the rest to pass on. If I were to keep itr as a list, have to remember to change all []s to ()s... and it may glue things in a wrong way if I forget.
16:35	Licenser	LauJensen: I personally like fried things a lot
16:35	Licenser	or grilled
16:35	alexyk	I destructure as [x & tail] and would glue back x*, the modified x, to tail
16:37	alexyk	I guess i'd have to add a precondition to make sure I have the right structure for the parameters to make sure a conj works right
16:37	alexyk	or I need an automagical vectorizer or listorizer
16:42	notostraca	alexyk: are you trying continuation-passing style? that sounds like what you are talking about
16:42	Chousuke	alexyk: don't destructure, just read the first parameter, and assoc the modified one to the first index?
16:42	Chousuke	alexyk: you don't need to construct a whole new vector that way.
16:42	Chousuke	though that's what probably happens anyway, if it's a small vector :P
16:42	technomancy	phobbs: check the latest swank-clojure readme and see if you can launch your swank server separately and then connect with M-x slime-connect. it's generally much more foolproof.
16:42	alexyk	notostraca: am not intentionally, link to what you mean! :)
16:43	phobbs	technomancy: I've also tried that, that's worse since it still doesn't create a slime buffer and it doesn't even make an inferior lisp buffer
16:43	alexyk	Chousuke: makes sense
16:44	Chousuke	alexyk: or, you can destructure with the :as directive
16:44	technomancy	phobbs: if you can describe the steps you tried for M-x slime-connect and send them to the mailing list I can look into it when I've got some time.
16:45	Chousuke	,(let [[a & bs :as v] [1 2 3]] [a bs v]) I think it goes something like this :P
16:45	clojurebot	[1 (2 3) [1 2 3]]
16:45	phobbs	technomancy: OK, thanks.
16:45	alexyk	Chousuke: yep
16:46	jkkramer	LauJensen: your comment button gives a 404 error
16:47	alexyk	,(assoc [1 2 3] 0 4)
16:47	clojurebot	[4 2 3]
16:47	alexyk	scary
16:48	LauJensen	jkkramer: sec
16:49	LauJensen	jkkramer: better?
16:49	jkkramer	LauJensen: yup, shows up now
16:49	LauJensen	jkkramer: great, thanks a lot for staying sharp
16:50	alexyk	LauJensen: you're gotta get some flak for the political turtle payground :)
16:50	jkkramer	LauJensen: looking forward to seeing the blog code, btw. i was going to write a baked clojure blog, now i may not need to
16:50	LauJensen	alexyk: huh?
16:50	LauJensen	oh, you mean the persecutors at 90 degrees and the persecuted at 120?
16:50	alexyk	LauJensen: the turtle playground post shows politically charged symbols in sequence :)
16:51	LauJensen	jkkramer: Most of it is very reuseable, so mostly you'll just need to handle design
16:52	jkkramer	LauJensen: are you handling clojure syntax highlighting on the fly, or just pasting in html from elsewhere?
16:52	Borkdude	LauJensen: very cool, but I hope I don't have to turn on cookies?
16:53	alexyk	LauJensen: ah, see your disclaimer below the graphics. too late :)
16:56	LauJensen	Borkdude: no cookies
16:56	LauJensen	jkkramer: SH is just M-x htmlize
16:57	Borkdude	LauJensen: just kidding btw
17:25	phobbs	I'm getting "File mode specification error: (error "Invalid timer")
17:25	phobbs	cancel-timer: Invalid timer" when I try to install swank-clojure from elpa
17:25	phobbs	this is from a fresh emacs-starter-kit installation
17:31	chouser	,(key nil)
17:31	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
17:31	chouser	why? should that just return nil?
17:38	dakrone	chouser: isn't it doing that because it's trying to do a look up the key of a nil map?
17:38	Borkdude	chouser: just thinking. (map key {:a :b}) => (:a), (map key {}) => () ?
17:38	tcrayford	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/analyze clojure.lang.Compiler$C/EVAL (read-string "(defn a [b c] (+ b c))"))
17:38	clojurebot	#<DefExpr clojure.lang.Compiler$DefExpr@c6ebd5>
17:38	tcrayford	interesting
17:38	tcrayford	that breaks for me here
17:39	tcrayford	can somebody else on 1.2 check that for me?
17:39	chouser	'key' expects a MapEntry, but I expect it to fail gracefully. Like meta does.
17:39	chouser	,(meta nil)
17:39	clojurebot	nil
17:39	AWizzArd	,clojure-version
17:39	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
17:40	dakrone	tcrayford: #<DefExpr clojure.lang.Compiler$DefExpr@31e46a68>
17:40	tcrayford	dakrone: was that on 1.2?
17:40	dakrone	yes
17:40	tcrayford	interesting
17:40	tcrayford	it works here outside of the repl as well
17:41	hiredman	I should really restart clojurebot to pick up a newer clojure version
17:43	tcrayford	is there a decent way to reset a mulitimethod?
17:46	AWizzArd	tcrayford: (find-doc "method") reveals remove-all-methods
17:49	tcrayford	AWizzard: cheers. I hacked a solution around (used a defn to redefine the var, then re-evalled the multimethod stuff), but its nice to know there' a proper way of doing it
17:50	AWizzArd	yes, plus find-doc is your friend (:
17:54	alexyk	is there a shorter way to destructure a map into renamed keys:
17:54	alexyk	,(let [[aa bb] (let [{:keys [a b]} {:a 1 :b 2}] [a b])] [aa bb])
17:55	tcrayford	tranform the map first?
17:56	Chousuke	,(let [{aa :a bb :b} {:a 1 :b 2}] [aa bb])
17:56	manniche	LauJensen: http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/ has a redirect loop and the redirect link from http://blog.bestinclass.dk/ gives a 404
17:56	Chousuke	$(let [{aa :a bb :b} {:a 1 :b 2}] [aa bb])
17:56	sexpbot	result: [1 2]
17:57	alexyk	hah!
17:57	LauJensen	manniche: Good catch, thanks
17:57	alexyk	clojurebot: envy sexpbot
17:57	Chousuke	the :keys form is a shortcut for the most common case :P
17:58	manniche	LauJensen: no, thank you for maintaining a great blog. Keep it up!
17:58	KirinDave	:\
17:58	KirinDave	Is tail recursion so arcane?
17:58	alexyk	Chousuke: cool, thx
17:59	Chousuke	KirinDave: arcane? :/
17:59	alexyk	$(print "bow before me, clojurebot weakling!")
17:59	sexpbot	result: bow before me, clojurebot weakling!
18:00	KirinDave	Chousuke: I just ipad'd out a question answer on clojure about tail calls. Someone was complaining that their obviously-not-tail-call was not tail-calling.
18:00	Chousuke	heh.
18:00	alexyk	KirinDave: is ipadding an act of banging on somebody's head with an ipad?
18:00	Chousuke	well, it's a bit difficut to tell sometimes I guess
18:00	KirinDave	alexyk: No, it's laboriously typing lisp on an ipad.
18:01	KirinDave	I hope I didn't make any egregious errors. -_-
18:01	Chousuke	but at least with clojure you get an error instead of accidental non-tail recursion :P
18:01	LauJensen	KirinDave: If you've paid for an ipad, you deserve some pain
18:01	LauJensen	:)
18:01	alexyk	KirinDave: that gonna hurt
18:01	KirinDave	LauJensen: At least when typing lisp.
18:01	alexyk	before they make that keyboard stand
18:01	alexyk	unless they did already
18:01	KirinDave	They did.
18:01	KirinDave	I have it, just not here with me.
18:01	alexyk	I furiously weigh the need for an ipad to sync my papers with Papers, but it seems smallish and now you carry 3 things.
18:02	KirinDave	Papers is uh-maaayyyy-zing.
18:02	hiredman	when you launche lein swank, is src/ not on the classpath?
18:02	alexyk	KirinDave: can you read 2-column on ipad?
18:02	KirinDave	I didn't buy an iPad because of it. But after I saw it I felt much better about my decision.
18:02	KirinDave	alexyk: Yes.
18:02	KirinDave	alexyk: Esp now that they have a fullscreen reader mode with no controls. Just a few % more magnification made all the difference.
18:03	alexyk	KirinDave: can you zoom to one column easily in preset amount or you always have to tune it and scroll?
18:03	KirinDave	Yes.
18:03	alexyk	loovely
18:03	KirinDave	Although the tuning is sorta automagical and not always correct.
18:03	KirinDave	Doube-tap TRIES to estimate, but doesn't always get it right.
18:03	alexyk	well it'll get better I'm sure. Too bad Amazon didn't let them do a Kindle app yet
18:04	KirinDave	???
18:04	KirinDave	They got shut down on that?
18:04	KirinDave	Oh well, the Kindle is a miserable PDF reader.
18:04	alexyk	they talked to Amazon to get Papers onto Kindle, but I guess Amazon is not there with any apps at all yet
18:04	KirinDave	Yeah, well no great loss
18:04	KirinDave	I have a Kindle DX. I would not use it for reading PDFs over my iPad.
18:05	alexyk	Kindle DX's PDF is OK and it's big enough. For any prolonged reading I'd prefer it for single-columns, but have to compare to ipad of course
18:05	alexyk	and double-columns suck on DX
18:06	KirinDave	Yes, it lacks the resolution.
18:07	KirinDave	I was very disappointed with my DX.
18:07	KirinDave	I'm hoping to resell it.
18:07	alexyk	KirinDave: you can do it in horizontal, but then you have to scroll up and down like crazy
18:07	alexyk	for books it's OK though
18:07	KirinDave	It's also just lacking in resolution.
18:07	KirinDave	And for programming books with code samples it often fails, badly.
18:07	KirinDave	Frequently the syntax highlight gets reproduced as illegibility on the DX.
18:08	KirinDave	Or so is my experience with pragprog books on that device
18:08	alexyk	KirinDave: yeas, it's iffy, while mostly OK for me. Yet you get to buy $10 bestsellers and any kinds of non-programming books OK.
18:09	alexyk	Stu's book is OK in mobi
18:09	KirinDave	yes. My kindle 2 I still use, periodically.
18:09	KirinDave	So are there any clojure luminaries who are NOT currently wrapped up in book authoring?
18:09	KirinDave	I was asked to check around.
18:10	alexyk	KirinDave: how'd you compare Stu's book in PDF on iPad vs .mobi on DX?
18:10	KirinDave	alexyk: In general the iPad does a much better job.
18:10	KirinDave	That's to be expected.
18:10	alexyk	KirinDave: but specifically? :)
18:10	KirinDave	Specifically in this case, a much better job.
18:10	KirinDave	Color, better zoom, etc.
18:10	alexyk	:)
18:10	KirinDave	If the screen doesn't give you issues with its glossiness, the iPad is a superior reader in nearly every dimension.
18:11	KirinDave	But then, I read only infrequently in super-bright conditions.
18:11	alexyk	KirinDave: I don't believe you can read as long without straining your eyes and hands
18:11	alexyk	gotta compare with 2 red-eye flights, one device all the way each way
18:12	alexyk	a pragprog book each way :)
18:12	KirinDave	alexyk: I stare at a computer monitor all day.
18:13	KirinDave	Why would looking at an ipad tire my eyes anymore than my led-backlit monitor?
18:14	KirinDave	I am catching up on the clojure mailing list after a month or so of neglect
18:14	KirinDave	Man, there are some truly painful threads on there.
18:14	KirinDave	For example, lauding http://pchiusano.blogspot.com/2010/01/actors-are-not-good-concurrency-model.html
18:14	sexpbot	"Prettt-tty, pretty, pretty good!: Actors are not a good concurrency model"
18:14	alexyk	KirinDave: Kindle strains the eyes less than a monitor for sure
18:15	KirinDave	alexyk: I've only found marginal benefits there. It depends strongly on the lighting.
18:15	alexyk	true
18:18	alexyk	KirinDave: yeah, using isolated Scala rants to support Clojure is iffy. AKKA kernel is not a small thing and shows Scala's modular nature too.
18:18	alexyk	but I tried Scala actors out of the box and they are annoying
18:18	KirinDave	alexyk: I think it's an erlang rant?
18:19	alexyk	after that Clojure shines on a multi-core box
18:19	alexyk	KirinDave: no, Paul is a Boston Scala guy
18:19	KirinDave	What an unfortunate person. Misinformed and lacking good taste.
18:19	alexyk	I'd rather use Scala and Clojure in an interop mode, instead of Java for speed
18:21	alexyk	for certain tasks Scala will be faster; and both signify FP progress. So the best modus operandi is to root for both IIMHO
18:37	bendlas	Hi folks
18:38	hiredman	ping?
18:38	scgilardi	pong
18:38	danlarkin	zap
18:39	KirinDave	whoop
18:52	emh	I'm having trouble defining multimethods with variable arity. is this supported? any examples out there?
18:55	emh	there. I got it, finally
19:49	hiredman	,clojure-version
19:49	hiredman	hmmm
19:50	hiredman	ping?
19:51	hiredman	ping?
19:51	_mst	pong!
19:51	hiredman	,clojure-version
19:51	hiredman	,clojure-version
19:51	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
19:52	hiredman	clojurebot: go away
19:52	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
20:08	kyleburton	,(find-doc "send-off")
20:08	clojurebot	------------------------- clojure.core/send-off ([a f & args]) Dispatch a potentially blocking action to an agent. Returns the agent immediately. Subsequently, in a separate thread, the state of the agent will be set to the value of: (apply action-fn state-of-agent args) ------------------------- clojure.core/set-error-mode! ([a mode-keyword]) Sets the error-mode of agent a to mode-keyword, which must be either :fail or :c
20:22	mmarczyk	is Leiningen HEAD unusable with Clojure 1.1 projects?
20:23	technomancy	mmarczyk: who knows, man... who knows?
20:24	technomancy	mmarczyk: seriously, it should work.
20:28	mmarczyk	technomancy: well, for some reason a Clojure 1.1 project I'm testing exhibits weird behaviour with lein repl from HEAD
20:29	mmarczyk	namely two repl prompts are printed with no trailing newline, then control returns to the shell
20:29	mmarczyk	in contrast, lein-stable (1.1.0) works fine
20:29	technomancy	mmarczyk: ah, that's a bug in the repl task, yeah. haven't been able to reproduce it recently
20:29	mmarczyk	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2851011/wrong-number-of-args-passed-to-replrepl
20:29	sexpbot	"Wrong number of args passed to: repl$repl - Stack Overflow"
20:29	mmarczyk	I was thinking of writing a comprehensive answer :-)
20:30	mmarczyk	there's a link to this "hello world" tutorial for Compojure, http://weavejester.github.com/compojure/docs/getting-started.html
20:31	technomancy	mmarczyk: post it to the lein mailing list and I'll try to take a look at it when I have some time later
20:31	mmarczyk	ok
20:34	lancepantz	≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
20:37	tufflax	I have clojure.jar on my classpath, and I'm unable to run "java clojure.main", shouldn't I be able to do that?
20:39	rhudson	tufflax: what's the error you see?
20:39	tufflax	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/main
20:40	mmarczyk	tufflax: what makes you think you've got clojure.jar on your classpath?
20:40	technomancy	tufflax: probably don't have your classpath set quite right. java doesn't know how to expand ~ => $HOME, for instance.
20:41	tufflax	I made java program that printed my classpath to make sure, and its .;"C:\Program Files\clojure-1.1.0\clojure-1.1.0\";"C:\Documents and Settings\oskarkv\Desktop\clojure-1.1.0\clojure.jar"
20:41	mmarczyk	tufflax: actually, never mind that, but if you mean something like $CLASSPATH, a "global" classpath is asking for trouble, just use -cp
20:42	tufflax	And I think that classpath is fine, yes?
20:43	mmarczyk	um, I'd expect the " " to go around the whole thing, not individual components, but I'm not on Windows and wouldn't really know... so maybe I'm speaking nonsense now
20:43	tufflax	heh
20:44	tufflax	both works when I provide the -cp argument
20:47	mmarczyk	and if you used just "C:\Documents and Settings\oskarkv\Desktop\clojure-1.1.0\clojure.jar" as your global (brrr!) classpath?
20:47	tufflax	well, let's see
20:50	tufflax	No, doesn't work
20:51	mmarczyk	:-(
20:52	mmarczyk	no idea then
20:52	mmarczyk	though you should probably use something like Leiningen to set up a project-specific cp for you anyway
20:52	mmarczyk	so I'm not sure if it's really worth your while to pursue this particular issue
20:53	tufflax	Maybe not
20:53	mmarczyk	surprising nonetheless
21:12	powr-toc	Does anyone here use Enclojure?
21:16	MadWombat	Hello
22:24	mmarczyk	any reason why a void method coming from an interface might need an explicit type hint in deftype (and not in reify)?
22:25	mmarczyk	asking in connection with this SO question:
22:25	mmarczyk	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2854041/how-can-i-define-a-clojure-type-that-implements-the-servlet-interface
22:25	sexpbot	"How can I define a clojure type that implements the servlet interface? - Stack Overflow"
22:29	etate	man the ^void syntax was a brilliant decision
22:32	mmarczyk	it was, wasn't it :-)
22:32	mmarczyk	just goes to show how important the little things really are ;-)
22:33	arohner	mmarczyk: because by default, clojure methods have a java signature that take Objects and return Objects
22:33	arohner	mmarczyk: apparently the servlet interface has an API that requires returning void
22:33	mmarczyk	arohner: yeah, sure, but (reify javax.servlet.Servlet (service [this req res])) works and you can call .service on it (with nils for req and res)
22:34	mmarczyk	arohner: also, as the SO OP points out, java.util.Set gives no such problems with .clear -- you can implement it in deftype without a hint
22:34	mmarczyk	arohner: apparently the void type is inferred there, which is in line with deftype's docstring... how's Servlet different?
22:36	arohner	mmarczyk: hrm. I don't know
22:36	arohner	mmarczyk: that sounds like a fun reason to dig through the sources, but I don't have time right now
22:37	alexyk	I need to loop through a seq. Am now doing things like, (loop [user ((comp second first) data) users (rest data)] ... (recur ((comp second first) users) (rest users))). Is there a way to destructure in loop and recur, or I'd have to do an enclosing let for it? Something like let-loop... somebody will suggest a macro! :)
22:38	mmarczyk	arohner: same here
22:39	alexyk	hmm, can we have a nested (loop ... (loop ... (recur ...) ...) ... (recur ...)) ? I get an error hinting the first recur wants to bind to the outer loop
22:39	mmarczyk	,(loop [[x y] (range 10)] [x y])
22:39	clojurebot	[0 1]
22:39	mmarczyk	so apparently you can destructure
22:39	arohner	"loop is exactly like let"
22:39	alexyk	mmarczyk: how'd you recur?
22:40	alexyk	in the recur, would you have to assign x and y?
22:40	alexyk	how does recur know to match a nested binding in loop?
22:40	dnolen	,(loop [[x y :as foo] (range 10)] [x y foo])
22:40	clojurebot	[0 1 (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)]
22:40	alexyk	dnolen: same as let, no recur
22:41	alexyk	show me how yo keep matching x and y
22:43	mmarczyk	alexyk: you'd have to provide whatever you want to go in place of (range 10) at the next iteration
22:43	mmarczyk	alexyk: if it's sth like (next ...), use :as xs in the destructuring vector
22:44	mmarczyk	,(loop [[x y :as xs] (range 10) acc 0] (if y (recur (next xs) (+ acc x y))))
22:44	clojurebot	nil
22:44	mmarczyk	,(loop [[x y :as xs] (range 10) acc 0] (if y (recur (next xs) (+ acc x y)) acc))
22:44	clojurebot	81
22:44	chouser	but loop/recur is hardly ever needed
22:45	alexyk	chouser: I verify sortedness of a graph and need early bail from unsorted
22:45	alexyk	chouser: is it ok? :)
22:46	mmarczyk	,(some > (partition 2 1 (range 10)))
22:46	clojurebot	true
22:46	mmarczyk	um, wait, wrong
22:46	chouser	alexyk: no. :-)
22:47	alexyk	chouser: :( what's the right way then?
22:47	mmarczyk	,(some #(apply > %) (partition 2 1 (range 10)))
22:47	clojurebot	nil
22:47	chouser	I mean, it's ok but there are more succinct solutions
22:47	mmarczyk	,(some #(apply > %) (partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4 5 7 6 8 9))
22:47	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
22:47	mmarczyk	,(some #(apply > %) (partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4 5 7 6 8 9]))
22:47	clojurebot	true
22:48	chouser	,(let [s [1 2 3 4 5 4 5 6 7 6 7 8]] (map > s (cons 0 s)))
22:48	clojurebot	(true true true true true false true true true false true true)
22:48	mmarczyk	alexyk: that's one way to walk a sequence until the first point where there are two consecutive numbers which are not <-sorted
22:48	chouser	,(let [s [1 2 3 4 5 4 5 6 7 6 7 8]] (every? true? (map > s (cons 0 s))))
22:48	clojurebot	false
22:49	mmarczyk	um, maybe (map >= s (cons (first s) s))
22:49	mmarczyk	:-)
22:49	chouser	mmarczyk: ah, better.
22:49	alexyk	I don't want to compute any pairs after the one which fails, i.e. assume tests are expensive and structures are large.
22:49	mmarczyk	alexyk: you won't, sequence operations tend to be lazy
22:49	chouser	alexyk: yes. every? will bail
22:49	mmarczyk	every? and some are
22:50	chouser	map is lazy
22:50	alexyk	ok
22:50	alexyk	good
22:51	mmarczyk	map will actually go 32 elements at a time, but every? and some will stop as soon as the value is determined
22:51	alexyk	nice!
22:52	chouser	map will only go 32 elements on a chunked seq
22:53	mmarczyk	,(first (map println [1 2 3]))
22:53	clojurebot	1 2 3
22:53	mmarczyk	a lot of things are chunked seqs, though
22:53	chouser	,(chunked-seq? (seq [1 2 3]))
22:53	clojurebot	true
22:55	mmarczyk	chouser: would you have any idea what goes on with the ^void type hints in deftype discussed ~20 minutes ago (~2 screens upward in the log for me)?
22:56	mmarczyk	(or I can recap)
22:56	alexyk	still, can loop/recur be nested, and how do they match then?
22:56	mmarczyk	alexyk: recur always goes to the innermost loop / fn
22:57	chouser	is there more than one method with the same name?
22:57	mmarczyk	chouser: not that I can see
22:58	chouser	oh, he should just have no type hints at all
22:58	chouser	(deftype servlet [] javax.servlet.Servlet (service [this request response] nil))
22:58	alexyk	mmarczyk: I seem to get an error about the number of recur arguments mismatched hinting it binds wrong
22:58	chouser	if you hint any part of a deftype (or defrecord) method, you must hint every arg and the return
22:58	mmarczyk	chouser: that's what he tried to do and it doesn't work
22:58	chouser	,(deftype servlet [] javax.servlet.Servlet (service [this request response] nil))
22:58	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: javax.servlet.Servlet
22:58	mmarczyk	chouser: which I verified at the repl
22:58	chouser	worked for me
22:59	mmarczyk	chouser: really? where do you get your javax.servlet.Servlet from?
22:59	chouser	I don't see an attempt to use no type hints
22:59	chouser	javax.servlet.Servlet is just an interface that comes with the JRE, right? Not a particular implementation?
23:00	chouser	oh, I guess that's not right. hm.
23:00	hiredman	it doesn't come with the jre
23:00	mmarczyk	chouser: ohhhhh
23:00	mmarczyk	chouser: ok, got it now: the ^void is needed if ^ServletRequest is provided (for example)
23:00	mmarczyk	right?
23:00	rhudson	Servlet comes with Java EE
23:00	chouser	right
23:00	mmarczyk	wow
23:01	chouser	never hint unless you have to.
23:01	chouser	:-)
23:01	mmarczyk	fair enough :-)
23:01	mmarczyk	however, there's nothing in deftype's docs to suggest this behaviour, IMO
23:01	mmarczyk	it says that type hints should be reserved for disambiguation
23:02	mmarczyk	so presumably you should be able to use them some places and not others...
23:02	mmarczyk	ok, here's my semi-official complaint about the docs then ;-)
23:02	mmarczyk	thanks a lot for the answer
23:02	mmarczyk	care to post it on SO?
23:04	mmarczyk	alexyk: can you paste an example somewhere?
23:04	chouser	"If not supplied, they will be inferred, so type hints should be reserved for disambiguation."
23:05	alexyk	mmarczyk: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/215106/ sorry this is a one-liner from repl, that's how I develop :)
23:05	alexyk	first I'll make it work with loop to see how destructuring works right in loop, then rewrite with every? to make chouser proud!
23:06	mmarczyk	chouser: yeah, that doesn't imply that if I hint two args, the non-hinted type of the return value will no longer be inferred
23:07	chouser	right
23:07	alexyk	hmm, chrome on mac can't size its own textbox properly to scroll right
23:07	alexyk	have to click raw to see the line wrapped
23:09	chouser	"if you supply any hints at all, no inference is done, so all hints (or default of Object) must be correct, for both arguments and return type" -- http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes
23:09	sexpbot	"Datatypes \| Clojure \| Assembla"
23:09	mmarczyk	chouser: ok, so now I think I should have known better ;-)
23:09	alexyk	ah ok I missed one, sorry
23:09	mmarczyk	chouser: still, the docstring should probably include this info
23:11	mmarczyk	chouser: not that I'm really complaining, this is unreleased stuff of course...
23:11	mmarczyk	alexyk: got it working?
23:12	alexyk	mmarczyk: well I feed it a map of maps, and it complained nth not supported on this type: PersistentHashMap
23:12	mmarczyk	alexyk: btw, how about rearranging things a bit and using cond instead of nested ifs?
23:12	alexyk	Normally I can call map over a map and it'll seq it for me; can I do next on it, or I have to make a seq out of it explicitly?
23:13	mmarczyk	alexyk: go ahead and try ;-)
23:13	alexyk	mmarczyk: cond sounds good
23:16	alexyk	ninjudd: ping
23:17	ms4720	night all
23:17	mmarczyk	chouser: do you think you'll want to post an answer to that SO q? I guess I need to do sth with mine, either update or remove
23:18	mmarczyk	alexyk: is your function meant to walk along dreps and stop with a false return value if some pair of consecutive items doesn't match your sorting criteria?
23:18	alexyk	mmarczyk: exactly
23:19	mmarczyk	alexyk: then it doesn't make sense to pass a hash map in
23:19	alexyk	mmarczyk: dreps is a hash map, but I take a seq of it
23:19	chouser	mmarczyk: I just posted to SO
23:19	clojurebot	map is lazy
23:19	mmarczyk	chouser: oh good :-)
23:20	alexyk	clojurebot: om mani padme hum map is lazy shanti shanti shanti
23:20	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
23:20	mmarczyk	alexyk: but that seq will come out in essentially random order
23:20	chouser	mmarczyk: I'm not suggesting that the docs couldn't be any better, just mentioning places that such information could be gleaned.
23:20	mmarczyk	alexyk: I mean, it'll be the same if you call seq twice on the same map, but if you add a new key, all bets are off
23:21	mmarczyk	alexyk: (depending on whether resizing happens etc.)
23:21	mmarczyk	chouser: perhaps the docstring could be shortened, with a list of links to extensive documentation, yeah
23:22	alexyk	mmarczyk: dreps contains adjacency lists; it is the nested lists I care about. They are in turn maps of form day value, and the days must be sorted as it's originally a sorted-map. But it was flushed into disk with protocol buffers and reloaded, and apprently that didn't rebuild the sorted-map...
23:22	mmarczyk	chouser: but if it's going to stay as long as it is, it could include a mention of the fact that inference is an all-or-nothing deal
23:24	mmarczyk	alexyk: ok, in that case maybe do a (into (sorted-map) ...) or sth similar when deserialising
23:24	alexyk	mmarczyk: yeah
23:24	alexyk	mmarczyk: or I'll ping ninjudd and ask him to add that to jiraph! :)
23:26	mmarczyk	jiraph? :-)
23:29	lancepantz	alexyk: he's talked about adding sorted-maps
23:33	alexyk	lancepantz: yeah!
23:34	alexyk	mmarczyk: jiraph is a clojure serialization with tokyo cabinet on github
23:34	alexyk	and google protocol buffers
23:34	mmarczyk	alexyk: googled for it already :-)