#clojure – 2010-05-06

2010-05-06

00:32	vIkSiT	hmm. slyphon, MadWombat - is there an equivalent of re-sub that will replace not just the first match?
00:33	slyphon	re-gsub
00:33	vIkSiT	ah
00:33	vIkSiT	,doc re-gsub
00:33	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/doc
00:33	vIkSiT	,(doc re-gsub)
00:33	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.str-utils/re-gsub;[[regex replacement string]]; Replaces all instances of 'pattern' in 'string' with 'replacement'. Like Ruby's 'String#gsub'. If (ifn? replacment) is true, the replacement is called with the match. "
00:33	vIkSiT	thx slyphon
00:33	slyphon	sure
00:33	slyphon	:)
00:39	_brian2_	noob question> how true is this from stuart's book : " (exception handling )... simply is not required." ?
00:40	_brian2_	Like a url fetch , which crashes
00:52	Blackfoot	are there characters not allowed in (comment) forms? i'm using 1.1.0 and getting Invalid token errors in a long (comment) form
00:52	slyphon	Blackfoot: (comment) must be readable
00:53	slyphon	by the compiler
00:53	slyphon	not true for ;; comments
00:53	Blackfoot	ah interesting
00:53	Blackfoot	ok, thanks
00:53	slyphon	sure
00:54	hiredman	comment is a macro
00:55	hiredman	and things inside (comment ...) must be readable by the reader
00:55	hiredman	,(doc comment)
00:55	clojurebot	"([& body]); Ignores body, yields nil"
00:55	Blackfoot	ah i see. i thought it would just evaluate anything, haven't had much experience with the read
00:55	Blackfoot	er
00:55	Blackfoot	just NOT evaluate
00:56	Blackfoot	makes sense, though, and i'll just use ;
01:18	alexyk	are things supposed to be faster when ran stand-alone vs. from repl?
01:19	chouser	nah
01:20	alexyk	good
01:21	MadWombat	seems like compojure 0.4.0 is acutally nothing more than some macros to make ring routes
01:33	defn	nothin wrong with that really
01:36	replaca	if there's less, maybe they can take the time to write some decent documentation
01:46	defn	that'd be nice
01:52	defn	who was talkin about cupboard?
02:09	LauJensen	Morning all! :)
02:10	mabes__	need to go to bed.. it is midnight here. :)
02:19	maravillas	and a good middle of the night to you, LauJensen
02:19	LauJensen	thanks :)
02:29	slyrus	evening
02:30	slyrus	i don't suppose anyone ever fixed the slime/swank-clojure problem that cropped up back in october?
02:36	tomoj	what problem was that
02:37	tomoj	edge slime?
02:39	slyrus	slime changed the way it was passing some symbols around and now (then?) tries to evaluate something that isn't a valid clojure symbol
03:04	LauJensen	Raynes: You there?
05:14	defn	cschreiner: ?
05:15	defn	also could someone explain a situation where you'd use nil?
05:15	defn	err (comment)
05:15	cschreiner	defn: I get this: [INFO] Repository 'clojars' will be blacklisted when lein deps
05:16	defn	weird
05:16	defn	what version of lein
05:16	cschreiner	1.1.0
05:16	cschreiner	maybe an upgrade is due
05:16	defn	im still running 1.1.0
05:16	defn	no issues
05:17	cschreiner	maybe my project.clj contains some odd pieces
05:17	defn	gist it and ill look if you like
05:19	cschreiner	defn: http://gist.github.com/391956
05:20	defn	first off, cool project
05:20	defn	:)
05:20	cschreiner	well, it could be cool, if I finish it
05:20	cschreiner	;-)
05:20	defn	does clojure "1.2.0
05:21	cschreiner	I guess I need some snapshot adding
05:21	defn	"1.2.0" work? I've been using 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT for clojure
05:21	defn	and master-SNAPSHOT for clojure-contrib
05:21	defn	sorry reverse those
05:21	defn	1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT for clojure, 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT for contrib
05:22	cschreiner	how about swank?
05:22	defn	lein-swank is right
05:22	defn	swank-clojure is 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT
05:22	cschreiner	ah
05:22	cschreiner	cool
05:22	defn	lemme know if that helps
05:23	cschreiner	I will
05:23	cschreiner	fails with 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT on clojure
05:24	cschreiner	same with contrib
05:24	cschreiner	seems like lein just times out on those entries
05:25	_ato	strange
05:25	defn	are you behind a proxy or something?
05:25	defn	maybe at work?
05:25	_ato	build.clojure.org is up
05:25	defn	yeah i just pulled from it
05:25	cschreiner	no proxy, but I'll try sudo again
05:25	LauJensen	cschreiner: http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg22248.html
05:25	sexpbot	"Re: Renaming 1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT is causing problems with projects on"
05:26	cschreiner	LauJensen: interesting...
05:26	defn	cschreiner: another thing to do just to be sure is to lein clean
05:26	cschreiner	defn: always does this
05:26	defn	you might also consider blowing away ~/.m2
05:26	cschreiner	defn: yeah, I have considered reinstalling lein
05:28	cschreiner	LauJensen: Those error msg's are the same I get, but I'm not behind a proxy
05:28	cschreiner	weird
05:28	defn	cschreiner: not that you know of...
05:28	defn	:)
05:28	LauJensen	cschreiner: They were caused by the rename, are you sure "1.2.0" is up as an artifact?
05:29	defn	LauJensen: he changed to mast-SNAPSHOT and no dice
05:29	LauJensen	oh
05:29	cschreiner	the thing is, my lib is properly populated now, but still having those error messages
05:29	LauJensen	cschreiner: rm ~/.m2 && lein self-install
05:29	cschreiner	defn: yeah, not that I know of, hehe
05:30	cschreiner	LauJensen: yeah, it's time for that now!
05:30	LauJensen	sometime .m2 is all thats standing between me and the bleeding edge
05:30	defn	yeah, happens often
05:30	defn	i wish there was a way with lein to say in project.clj "this is bleeding edge, keep pulling and replacing no matter what"
05:31	LauJensen	hehe, /me doesnt make any sense in that sentence :)
05:31	LauJensen	defn: shouldn't be hard to make, its easy with Gradle/Clojuresque
05:31	_ato	http://old.nabble.com/Repository-Blacklist-td15234875.html
05:31	sexpbot	"Old Nabble - Maven - Users - Repository Blacklist"
05:31	_ato	"It doesn't remember the blacklist. It does remember individual plugin download failures by virtue of writing incomplete metadata files into the local repo"
05:32	defn	bingo
05:32	_ato	so clearing ~/.m2 should fix it
05:32	_ato	stupid maven
05:32	defn	:)
05:32	_ato	any sane person downloads under a different name and atomically moves to the final name
05:32	_ato	;-)
05:32	LauJensen	we're mostly an insane crowd
05:33	defn	5/7 things im using in one of my projects are getting updated daily
05:33	_ato	so it could have gotten a failed download when build.clojure.org was down the other day
05:34	defn	yeah
05:34	_ato	ah yeah... by person I meant programmer (so maven should be doing that, not you doing it manually)
05:35	cschreiner	lein still use a looong time checking for updates from central, didn't do that earlier, still gives me blacklist messages, and populates the lib properly...
05:36	cschreiner	horseshit
05:36	LauJensen	What good would that do ?
05:37	_ato	lousy
05:37	cschreiner	something is good though, lein swank works now, for the first time in a couple of weesk
05:37	cschreiner	thanks for the .m2 removal hint
05:38	cschreiner	guess I just have to trust the system, even if I don't understand it
05:38	LauJensen	cschreiner: You could try Clojuresque instead, see if that works
05:38	defn	you /could/ understand it. there's github ;)
05:39	cschreiner	defn: need more hours for that
05:39	cschreiner	well, lein swank saved the day
05:39	cschreiner	now I can get rid of the swank-clojure-project habbit
05:40	cschreiner	(or whatever it's called)
05:41	defn	a habbit is what nuns wear
05:41	cschreiner	so, I am a nun?
05:41	defn	heh, i take that back
05:42	defn	i guess it's habit
05:42	_mst	and they wear them habitually!
05:42	defn	indeed!
05:42	cschreiner	or hobbit?
05:42	cschreiner	ah, the polling for ever
05:42	defn	your curiosity is reminiscent of mr. baggins
05:43	cschreiner	when lein swank, it is correct to use slime-connect ?
05:44	_ato	yes
05:44	cschreiner	I get a message about: "Versions differ: 20091016 (slime) vs. nil (swank). Continue?"
05:45	cschreiner	when Yes, it polls forever, needs some updates I guess
05:45	cschreiner	not true; when Yes, I get a Java Exception about an unmatched delimiter: )
05:46	_ato	sounds like you're not having a great day. :/
05:46	_ato	are you using swank-clojure 1.1.0 in emacs?
05:47	defn	don't use swank-clojure anymore
05:47	defn	it mangles the classpath and stuff
05:47	cschreiner	_ato: 1.2
05:47	_ato	defn: swank-clojure is the slime adapter, you need to use it
05:48	_ato	to use slime with clojure
05:48	cschreiner	defn: so I should just remove the dev-dep on swank-clojure "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"??
05:48	_ato	maybe you mean M-x swank-clojure-project
05:48	cschreiner	nah
05:48	_ato	cschreiner: I mean swank-clojure.el -- the emacs part
05:49	cschreiner	_ato: okay, I'll remove that from my init.el
05:49	_ato	no don't remove it
05:49	_ato	just check the version
05:49	_ato	(it's listed in the comment at the top of swank-clojure.el)
05:50	_ato	or if you installed via ELPA M-x package-list-packages should tell you what version you have
05:50	cschreiner	_ato: 1.1.0
05:50	_ato	weird
05:50	_ato	I have 1.1.0 .el talking to the 1.2.0 snapshot jar fine
05:51	_ato	hmm
05:51	LauJensen	same here
05:52	cschreiner	restarting emacs does wonders :)
05:52	LauJensen	?
05:53	LauJensen	restarting emacs??
05:53	cschreiner	it's okay now
05:53	_ato	ah, cool
05:53	cschreiner	LauJensen: Yeah, waht?
05:54	cschreiner	very cool, thanks a bunch
05:58	nurv	Morning.
06:06	cschreiner	morning
06:12	defn	yay for clojure!
06:12	cschreiner	~max
06:12	clojurebot	maxine is http://research.sun.com/projects/maxine/
07:06	spariev	what key-val stores do you guys use with Clojure ?
07:07	spariev	I need to store byte arrays with string keys, a lot of them
07:07	spariev	tried mongodb, it uses too much memory IMO, thinking Berkeley DB JE now
07:07	AWizzArd	spariev: how much ram do you have available?
07:08	spariev	I'd like to fit in 2Gb
07:09	spariev	MongoDb uses memory mapping, and it ate about 6-7Gb with my workload
07:11	AWizzArd	spariev: you want the db to consume 2gb, but the data you will insert is more like +/- 5gb?
07:11	GeoffSK	newbie - why does this fail to print - (map println '(1 2))
07:11	AWizzArd	,(map println '(1 2))
07:11	clojurebot	(nil nil)
07:11	AWizzArd	didn't fail
07:12	GeoffSK	..when its in a one line file
07:12	AWizzArd	,(let [x (println "hello")] x)
07:12	clojurebot	hello
07:12	AWizzArd	ok, the clojurebot does not show the return value here
07:12	AWizzArd	but: println returns nil
07:13	spariev	AWizzArd: yep, but data does not have to be in memory
07:13	GeoffSK	it works at the REPL, but not in a file..what am i missing?
07:13	AWizzArd	GeoffSK: in what way does it fail?
07:13	AWizzArd	What is the error message
07:13	AWizzArd	spariev: yes, I understood, just wanted to have more details
07:13	GeoffSK	no printed output
07:13	AWizzArd	GeoffSK: and how did you run this file?
07:14	GeoffSK	rlwrap java -cp /home/geoffrey/projects/clojure/clojure.jar:/home/geoffrey/projects/clojure/clojure-contrib.jar test.clj
07:15	GeoffSK	oops that was the wrong line..i have clojure.main in there to.
07:15	AWizzArd	hmm, I would more expect a "class not found" exception
07:15	AWizzArd	could you show that one please?
07:16	GeoffSK	rlwrap java -cp /home/geoffrey/projects/clojure/clojure.jar:/home/geoffrey/projects/clojure/clojure-contrib.jar clojure.main test.clj
07:16	hoeck	GeoffSK: (map println '(1 2)) is a lazy sequence, just loading the file will not cause the sequence to be evaluated
07:16	AWizzArd	yes, that is expected to output nothing
07:16	shifty3	spariev: bdb should work for that, I have used it to store much more data than that. you can tune the in-memory buffer size to cap its memory usage
07:16	GeoffSK	i wondered about it being lazy. printing doesn't force eval?
07:16	AWizzArd	print yes
07:17	hoeck	GeoffSK: on the repl it works, because it is eager to evaluate the result of that (map println ...), so you see 1nil or so
07:17	hoeck	GeoffSK: but you are not printing the result
07:17	AWizzArd	exactly
07:17	zmila	,(- 999999999999999999 (bit-shift-left 999999999999999999 0))
07:17	clojurebot	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
07:17	AWizzArd	GeoffSK: put a second line (println "hi") into the file
07:17	zmila	pff
07:17	spariev	shifty3: thanks, I'll try. Did you use any Clojure APIs for bdb ?
07:18	hoeck	GeoffSK: you are printing each element at each step of the lazy-seq evaluation
07:18	GeoffSK	the "hi" is printed nothing else
07:18	shifty3	no, didn't use it with clojure, actually, just java
07:18	AWizzArd	GeoffSK: good, then your Clojure installation is working correctly :)
07:18	hoeck	GeoffSK: (doall (map println '(1 2))) will force the lazy-seq
07:18	hoeck	or (println (map ...)) will print it additionally
07:18	AWizzArd	or (count (map ..))
07:19	GeoffSK	as u expected it prints. but i dont understand
07:19	spariev	shifty3: oh, ok. just having difficulties with cupboard dbd api, looking for alternatives
07:19	shifty3	bdb also has jmx mbeans that allow you to change the buffer size while the program is running (using jconsole or visualvm). can be a lifesaver in long-running processes ;)
07:20	spariev	bdb looks much more mature than stuff like mongo and tokyo cabinet
07:21	GeoffSK	hoeck: is it because the (map ) is never evaluated and thus nor is the print?
07:21	hoeck	GeoffSK: exactly
07:21	GeoffSK	nicely functional. Thanks AWizzArd, hoeck
07:22	shifty3	yes, it is pretty stable. you may have to tune the default parameters, though. depending on your workload, the log cleaner may have trouble keeping up
07:26	AWizzArd	GeoffSK: technically speaking the map is evaluated, but the object that it returns isn't.
07:26	cemerick	replaca: that set pprint issue was resolved with a full cleanse of the snapshots
07:27	GeoffSK	AWizzArd: that makes sense.
07:43	defn	not the c.contrib version, but their own
09:52	replaca	cemerick: makes sense. I wasn't able to reproduce it here
09:53	cemerick	yeah, sorry for the goose chase
09:53	replaca	cemerick: no worries, I only spent about 5 minutes :-)
10:22	lpetit	is my idea (posted on the ml) of getting rid of refer-clojure flawed ?
10:22	lpetit	rhickey: ^^
10:22	chouser	lpetit: I failed to find the thread where refer-clojure was originally proposed
10:23	rhickey	lpetit: all proposals to change Clojure are best left to post 1.2
10:23	chouser	I seem to recall that idea coming up. If it did, it'd be interesting to see why it wasn't chosen.
10:24	lpetit	rhickey: ok, but that could be made backward compatible, that's why I talked about it before feature freeze
10:24	lpetit	chouser: sure
10:25	stuartsierra	Does anyone have a link to rhickey's "or-nil" function?
10:26	rhickey	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/f251cfd9baab440a
10:26	stuartsierra	rhickey: thanks
10:27	rhickey	that never made ii into contrib eh?
10:30	stuartsierra	rhickey: dunno, I'd forgotten the name
10:30	lpetit	stuartsierra: implement your protocol on nil :-p
10:31	stuartsierra	I actually wanted something simpler: (defn or-nil [pred value] (or (nil? x) (pred value))
10:31	stuartsierra	I mean (defn or-nil [f x] (or (nil? x) (f x))
10:31	clojurebot	executable jar is a sample executable jar build using ant : http://github.com/cark/clj-exe-jar/tree/master
10:34	lpetit	stuartsierra: that's -?> , no ?
10:34	chouser	well, here's the conversation that led to :refer-clojure http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-09-03.html#10:56
10:34	sexpbot	"#clojure log - Sep 03 2008"
10:37	lpetit	chouser: so I don't see a strong point against my proposed simplification, or did I overlook smth ?
10:37	chouser	no, I don't see it either
10:38	stuartsierra	lpetit: I guess -?> would have the same effect
10:40	lpetit	stuartsierra: (or-nil f x) vs (-?> x f) :)
10:41	stuartsierra	lpetit: I prefer or-nil in this particular case (argument checking)
10:41	chouser	lpetit: ah, here it's actually suggested here, but nobody on this thread seems to take it up (pro or con): http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/1c5cddb04a2e6c1d/d1f3c2a842896b6e?#d1f3c2a842896b6e
10:46	lpetit	chouser: I don't understand everything, that would take more time I can devote to. I am unable to see whether what I proposed is in contradiction with one of the points raised in this ^^^ thread :-(
10:56	stuartsierra	Where do :pre/:post go in a multiple-arity function?
10:57	stuartsierra	never mind, found it on http://clojure.org/special_forms
11:07	Raynes	LauJensen: ohai
11:07	LauJensen	hey
11:07	Raynes	I'm 8 hours late, but I'm here.
11:07	Raynes	$mail
11:09	Raynes	LauJensen: I couldn't do it exactly that way, but I could just include ping with sexpbot or something.
11:09	Raynes	The problem is cross-platformness.
11:10	LauJensen	oh
11:10	LauJensen	You described a security issue that sounded specific to *nix
11:10	jfields	is there a better way to do this? (swap! an-atom-with-a-map #(merge-with + a-map %))
11:11	Raynes	It is *nix specific, but it doesn't work on Windows regardless. On windows, it always falls back to opening port 7.
11:11	Raynes	But shelling out would kill it completely.
11:11	Raynes	$ping localhost
11:11	sexpbot	Raynes: Ping completed in 0 seconds.
11:11	Raynes	It at least works for some things. :p
11:12	nurv	Hi.
11:12	Raynes	Hello.
11:13	chouser	jfields: I can't think of anything substantially better.
11:13	jfields	chouser: thanks.
11:14	jfields	I'm getting by with what I know, but the occasional tip on idiomatic syntax has been very helpful :)
11:15	chouser	jfields: many uses of swap! don't require #() like that because many collection functions take the collection first.
11:16	chouser	(swap! an-atom merge a-map)
11:16	jfields	chouser: yep, I've been doing that for sure. I just wanted to make sure I knew the idiomatic way when the first arg isn't a coll.
11:16	chouser	but since merge-with takes another function first, this convenient simplicity breaks down and you have to do something to get the args in the right order. #() or partial
11:18	chouser	(swap! an-atom (partial merge-with + a-map)) should work, but isn't necessarily better than what you have.
11:22	Raynes	LauJensen: $ping actually works for a lot of sites, it appears.
11:27	dnolen	matchure + pre/post is pretty slick.
11:36	gilescb	hi all, newbie question: is there a way to supply the args to a function when I have the args as a list but the function requires varargs; eg. Python's *args?
11:36	puredanger	in our drunken wanderings around the clojure design space we have hit on this pattern of using s-expressions as the data structure and creating macros that evaluate an s-expression to itself so that you don't have to worry about eager/delayed evaluation
11:36	puredanger	my belief is that this is surely a well-explored pattern in clojure/lisp world
11:37	puredanger	and there are probably explored pros/cons to it
11:37	puredanger	please point me in the direction of that information, oh great interwebs of clojure love
11:37	Raynes	$(apply + [1 2 3 4 5])
11:37	sexpbot	result: 15
11:37	gilescb	they've failed me for about the last hour and a half :(
11:37	Raynes	gilescb: ^
11:38	dnolen	,(str "a" "b" "c")
11:38	clojurebot	"abc"
11:38	dnolen	,(apply str ["a" "b" "c"])
11:38	clojurebot	"abc"
11:38	Raynes	dnolen: I win. You're late. ;)
11:38	gilescb	ah... many thanks
11:39	dnolen	Raynes: an extra example never hurt anyone ;)
11:39	Raynes	;p
11:39	chouser	puredanger: I'm not quite sure what you mean, but it sounds interesting.
11:39	chouser	puredanger: I hope you don't actually mean calling eval inside a defmacro
11:39	puredanger	so to give a specific use case, we (by which I mean people sitting in the same room as me) are building a performance testing framework in clj
11:39	Raynes	gilescb: Anyway, apply applies the function to everything in the sequence as if they were individual arguments. It's magics.
11:39	puredanger	(no not eval)
11:40	puredanger	we could build a representation of a test definition as a data structure, say with vectors
11:40	puredanger	or records, etc
11:40	puredanger	and then write code to read that data structure, persist it to a db, evaluate it, etc
11:40	puredanger	OR we could just say that an s-expr IS the data structure
11:41	puredanger	but then you have to worry about it being evaluated at the point of definition
11:41	puredanger	so we are using a macro like: (defmacro test-def
11:41	puredanger	"Expand into a list which is itself"
11:41	puredanger	[label fixture fixture-map & test-points]
11:41	puredanger	`(list 'test-def ~label '~fixture ~fixture-map ~@(map test-point-as-list test-points)))
11:42	puredanger	and a test like: (test-def "demo-test" sample-fixture {:x 2}
11:42	puredanger	(sample-test-fcn {:x 1 :y 2 :z 3})
11:42	puredanger	(throw (RuntimeException.))
11:42	puredanger	(sample-test-fcn {:x 10 :y 20 :z 30}))
11:43	chouser	puredanger: well, I'm no lisp veteran, but that seems like a perfectly natural thing to do.
11:43	puredanger	we then have functions that know how to take an s-expr in this form and import, persist, evaluate it, etc
11:43	chouser	It's only a slight specilization of syntax-quote itself, in a way.
11:44	puredanger	yeah
11:44	puredanger	surely there is prior art on this as an idea though, right????
11:46	puredanger	chouser: btw, nice article in infoq http://www.infoq.com/articles/in-depth-look-clojure-collections
11:46	sexpbot	"InfoQ: An In-Depth Look at Clojure Collections"
11:47	chouser	puredanger: thanks!
11:47	chouser	fogus thanks you too. :-)
11:47	puredanger	yes, him too
11:48	fogus	puredanger: Indeed. Thank you
12:01	bsteuber	is there some default directory java applications should use to store their data?
12:01	AWizzArd	bsteuber: no.
12:02	AWizzArd	bsteuber: best thing to use are command line args or environment vars or data coming from a config file.
12:02	bsteuber	yeah, but then I have to decide where to store my config file :)
12:02	bsteuber	so same problem
12:03	AWizzArd	bsteuber: (System/getProperty "user.home")
12:04	bsteuber	hm, but e.g. on windows I guess it's expected to use "Application Data"?
12:04	AWizzArd	Your application must have requirements. It can ask the user to provide command line args, set env vars or put something into his home.
12:05	AWizzArd	bsteuber: on my Windows: "C:\\Dokumente und Einstellungen\\bsteuber"
12:06	AWizzArd	fogus: that would be another option, yes
12:06	bsteuber	I'm just looking for a reasonable default per OS that users don't complain about
12:06	AWizzArd	The installer with which bsteuber ships his app can setup the right entries in the Registry.
12:07	AWizzArd	bsteuber: home then. And the manual can reflect this.
12:07	bsteuber	but maybe user.home/.my-app is not that bad for a start
12:07	AWizzArd	And you can offer a command line arg/env var which can override this
12:07	bsteuber	ok, thx
12:29	tufflax	What does the number 1M mean in Clojure?
12:29	stuartsierra	(type 1M)
12:29	stuartsierra	,(type 1M)
12:29	clojurebot	java.math.BigDecimal
12:29	tufflax	ah ok, thanks
12:38	slyphon	so, i ran into an interesting problem trying out 1.2 last night, i have a piece of code that does (bindings [c.c.sql.internal/transaction* (fn [f] (f))] ...) and under that doesn't "stick"
12:39	slyphon	"under 1.2"
12:40	chouser	hm. I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't...
12:40	slyphon	yeah, it's very confusing
12:41	slyphon	the sql.clj code doesn't see the binding i established
12:53	stuartsierra	Does the &env special argument make any guarantees about the order of its keys?
12:54	LauJensen	$ping www.bestinclass.dk
12:54	sexpbot	LauJensen: Ping completed in 0 seconds.
12:54	stuartsierra	E.g., will (keys &env) return locals in the order in which they were bound?
13:00	chouser	stuartsierra: no, pretty sure not.
13:01	stuartsierra	ok
13:01	chouser	stuartsierra: the current implementation probably calls 'assoc' in order, so as long as it's short it probably is an arraymap in the expected order, but as soon as it is long enough to become a hash-map the order would no longer be useful.
13:01	stuartsierra	right
13:01	stuartsierra	so, in other words, an implementation detail that I cannot depend on
13:01	chouser	right
13:05	fogus	OH on the Intertweets: Q: "What's hot in Groovy these days?" A: "Clojure"
13:05	chouser	heh. nice.
13:06	slyphon	hah!
13:06	ataggart	lol
13:07	slyphon	whole buncha languages came along and just ate Groovy's lunch
13:16	mabes	slyphon, fogus: yeah, I remember seeing a quote from groovy's creator saying that he would have not created it if something like scala existed at the time
13:16	slyphon	yeah
13:16	slyphon	i saw that too
13:16	fogus	mabes: That speaks volumes
13:17	chouser	groovy's still more dynamic than scala, isn't it?
13:17	slyphon	yeah, it's just not that "cool"
13:17	mabes	it is slower though
13:17	slyphon	compared to JRuby even, i mean, why would you mess w/ it?
13:18	LauJensen	chouser: define 'more' ?
13:18	mabes	yeah, I wonder if he would have created it if jruby was mature back then.. my guess is not
13:18	headius	groovy was originally intended to be a ruby-like language on the jvm
13:18	LauJensen	mabes: I think it was the maker of Groovy who said, that had Scala existed he wouldn't have bothered
13:18	headius	it's been altered drastically since then
13:19	mabes	LauJensen: heh, yeah, just said that :)
13:19	LauJensen	haha
13:19	mabes	headius: are does it compare speedwise with JRuby these days?
13:19	LauJensen	right you are, sorry
13:19	mabes	er.. s/are/how/
13:27	fogus	LauJensen: Scala's pretty good at dynamic
13:27	LauJensen	fogus: Yea, my understanding was that Groovy was up to par
13:28	fogus	LauJensen: I know next to nothing about Groovy unfortunately
13:28	slyphon	fogus: eh? it's a statically typed language through and through?
13:29	LauJensen	fogus: its great for build scripts :)
13:29	fogus	slyphon: I guess I should caveat that buy saying, Scala's pretty good at appearing dynamic, in certain ways
13:29	slyphon	hah, agreed
13:29	fogus	s/buy/by
13:29	Raynes	He said he "probably" never would have bothered creating Groovy.
13:29	Raynes	probably
13:30	Raynes	And that is what Groovyists hang their hat on. :p
13:30	slyphon	hahaha
13:30	LauJensen	Thats funny
13:30	LauJensen	Didn't Martin Odersky say that he wouldn't have invented Scala if C++ had been on the JVM already?
13:31	LauJensen	(j/k)
13:31	Licenser	da da da
13:33	thearthur	how do i write the type of an array of bytes in a defmethod?
13:34	thearthur	that dispatches on type
13:35	jfields	what's the name of the ->> operator?
13:35	slyphon	double arrow?
13:35	chouser	thearthur: I'd recommend (class (byte-array []))
13:35	LauJensen	jfields: often referred to as the threading operator
13:35	LauJensen	and -> is thrush I think
13:35	jfields	isn't -> the threading?
13:35	jfields	ah, ok, thanks.
13:35	slyphon	LauJensen: ah, yeah that sounds right
13:36	kwertii	Has anyone done (or looked into doing) an Eclipse Rich Client Platform app in Clojure? Googled, nothing obvious.
13:36	LauJensen	hmm
13:36	chouser	-> is threading, ->> is piping. But I don't really like those names.
13:36	LauJensen	No wait, I think its the other way around
13:36	fogus	I like arrows
13:36	LauJensen	$google thrush in clojure
13:36	sexpbot	First out of 141 results is: Ruminations of a Programmer: Thrush in Clojure
13:36	sexpbot	http://debasishg.blogspot.com/2010/04/thrush-in-clojure.html
13:36	Raynes	I like arrows.
13:36	LauJensen	Go check that out :)
13:36	Raynes	->>>>>>>>> <-- We need this.
13:37	wlangstroth	"threading" is an unusual term in a language focused on concurrency
13:37	slyphon	hahahaha
13:37	chouser	wlangstroth: yeah, unfortunate
13:37	LauJensen	Something I often need, is a threading operator which creates anonymous functions and deferences their results (which are objects) and then finally constructs the return, its calld -@#()>.
13:37	wlangstroth	LauJensen: hahaha!
13:37	slyphon	"threading" makes snese in a lexical context though
13:37	slyphon	hahaha
13:38	wlangstroth	doesn't -> chain functions?
13:38	cgrand	Laujensen, the name for -@#()> is" brochette"
13:38	fogus	I don't like threading as a name. It implies a connection to Thread
13:39	fogus	I'd rather say the stich operator, or arrows
13:39	LauJensen	cgrand: oh yea, its already in contrib I see :)
13:39	slyphon	fogus: eh, i always thought of it as "needle and.."
13:39	wlangstroth	(it /looks/ like it does)
13:39	slyphon	for hash key lookup you're supposed to put the keyword first?
13:39	slyphon	(:key map) ?
13:40	cgrand	kwertii: I think lpetit or Gaetan Morice may have tried Eclipse RCP+Clojure
13:41	LauJensen	slyphon: There was mixed oppinion about that on the ML, but you can do both ofc
13:41	headius	mabes: jruby should be faster for ruby code or I'll eat my hat...groovy is probably still faster for calling java from groovy because we have to wrap incoming objects in an IRubyObject wrapper
13:41	slyphon	hm, yeah i read the style guide, and i was a little confused as to why a distinction was made
13:41	headius	I mean jruby running ruby code should be faster than groovy running groovy code
13:42	headius	largely because we don't have multimethod dispatch in ruby
13:42	SynrG	headius: did i mention that little issue with jline is solved by a patch provided by the debian maintainer? and in any event, i find rlwrap is nicer :)
13:42	slyphon	headius: sigh
13:42	headius	SynrG: oh really? since I'm supposedle jline admin I should probably know that
13:42	kwertii	cgrand: Thanks, I'll look for them
13:43	SynrG	headius: i hope he sent it upstream ...
13:43	headius	I don't think I saw it on jline ML, but maybe in issues
13:43	SynrG	shame on him if he didn't
13:43	headius	somehow I got added as an admin on that project
13:43	SynrG	or maybe he was waiting for me for feedback that it works?
13:43	SynrG	hmm
13:44	SynrG	or maybe peter isn't one of the maintainers ...
13:44	SynrG	http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=576814
13:44	sexpbot	"#576814 - libjline-java: left-arrow, up-arrow adds null to retrieved history line - Debian Bug report logs"
13:49	LauJensen	slyphon: I think some people felt that (fn :word) was safer than (:word fn) IIRC
13:50	slyphon	interesting
13:52	LauJensen	$google clojure group coding standards
13:52	sexpbot	First out of 1350 results is: clojure.lib coding standards: initial draft brain dump - Clojure ...
13:52	sexpbot	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/d090b5599909497c
13:54	LauJensen	Great work sexpbot, slyphon check out Chas Emericks first reply
13:54	slyphon	ah, willdo
14:00	jfields	is there a function that will return {:a 1} from {:a 1 :b 2}?
14:01	ipostelnik	jfields, select-keys
14:01	slyphon	select-keys
14:01	jfields	ipostelnik, slyphon: thanks
14:01	dermatthias	I want to use the (normal mu sigma) function from contrib.probabilities.monte-carlo, but I have no idea what to do with the result of, for example, (normal 0 1). As far as i can tell, it's a function and has something to do with monads....but that's where I get lost....
14:01	slyphon	(anyone not familiar with Sesame Street will not get that, but what the heck...)
14:04	slyphon	dermatthias: yeah, weird
14:15	dermatthias	:)
14:15	SynrG	slyphon: good article, but yes, taxing :)
14:15	dermatthias	self-made solution: (defn normal [mu sigma]
14:15	dermatthias	(let [r (Random.)]
14:15	dermatthias	(+ mu (* sigma (.nextGaussian r)))))
14:29	Moominpapa	This may sound like a stupid question (possibly because it is) but how do you run the tests for circumspec?
14:30	Moominpapa	lein test definitely doesn't work. Running it in the repl gets the wrong version of clojure.
14:31	technomancy	Moominpapa: the repl task works in lein 1.2 (dev build); could try that.
14:31	Moominpapa	Thanks, I will.
15:02	DeusExPikachu	w00t! figured out custom classloading
15:11	ataggart	DeusExPikachu: Don't forget to account for permgen space
15:14	wlangstroth	DeusExPikachu: what did you end up doing?
15:18	arkahn	Are there any queue-like data structures besides clojure.lang.PersistentQueue and seque? I'm looking for a FIFO
15:19	chouser	PersistentQueue is FIFO
15:19	hiredman	those are called "stacks"
15:19	arkahn	hiredman: ; ) yes
15:19	chouser	stacks are FILO
15:19	hiredman	right
15:19	hiredman	<-- reversed
15:19	chouser	:-)
15:19	arkahn	chouser: do you know why PersistentQueue isn't more 'public'?
15:20	hiredman	,(first (conj '() 1 2))
15:20	clojurebot	2
15:20	hiredman	,(first (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2))
15:20	clojurebot	1
15:35	dakrone	when extending a protocol with a record, is there a way to mark some of the methods "private" so nothing other than the record can call them?
15:51	fogus_	Whoops... clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY no longer prints as () in v1.2
15:51	fogus_	That is, PersistentQueues no longer print with parens
15:52	fogus_	Intentional?
15:52	AWizzArd	fogus_: how do they now print?
15:52	fogus_	AWizzard: #<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@0>
15:53	AWizzArd	oh hmm
15:53	fogus_	Not that it matters, just curious if this was by design
15:54	fogus_	I always wished they printed out a queue fish: <-(1 2 3)-< :p
15:54	AWizzArd	yes, exactly what i thought
15:58	hiredman	fogus_: print-method …
15:58	fogus_	hiredman: understood. Just came across it while writing some code and wondered out loud.
15:59	hiredman	I'm just saying, if we want fish, we can have fish
15:59	hiredman	it does kind of make sense, because a queue isn't a list
15:59	hiredman	(or a seq)
16:00	fogus_	hiredman: Ah yes. Maybe I'll add my fish-method to my user file. ;-)
16:00	sbt	is there a standard way of picking a random element from a set?
16:02	hiredman	,(defmethod print-method clojure.lang.PersistentQueue [q, w] (print-method "#Q" w) (print-method (seq q) w))
16:02	clojurebot	DENIED
16:02	hiredman	clojurebot: your mother wears army boots
16:02	clojurebot	My mother? I'll tell you about my mother
16:03	hiredman	,(conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2)
16:03	clojurebot	"#Q"(1 2)
16:03	hiredman	gah
16:03	fogus_	whoa!
16:03	fogus_	I didn't think that would work
16:04	hiredman	,(conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2)
16:04	clojurebot	Wrong number of args passed to: core$fn
16:04	hiredman	,(conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2)
16:04	clojurebot	<-(1 2)-<
16:05	hiredman	,(pop (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2))
16:05	clojurebot	<-(2)-<
16:06	fogus_	Much better. :-)
16:09	MadWombat	where can you get docs on clojure.lang.PersistentQueue?
16:13	chouser	sbt: (rand-nth [:a :b :c :d])
16:18	hiredman	,Q
16:18	clojurebot	<-nil-<
16:18	hiredman	:D
16:18	hiredman	nil fish
16:18	chouser	heh
16:18	chouser	,(conj Q 1 2 3)
16:18	clojurebot	<-(1 2 3)-<
16:18	chouser	see, what's wrong with that? nothing!
16:18	stuartsierra	,(conj Q (list) (list) (list))
16:18	clojurebot	<-(() () ())-<
16:18	stuartsierra	fish skeleton
16:19	chouser	,(read-string (pr-str (conj Q 1 2 3)))
16:19	clojurebot	<-
16:19	stuartsierra	,(conj Q (list (list (list))))
16:19	clojurebot	<-(((())))-<
16:19	stuartsierra	that's better
16:19	chouser	,(conj Q Q Q)
16:19	clojurebot	<-(<-nil-< <-nil-<)-<
16:19	chouser	no-longer-hungry fish
16:19	hiredman	haha
16:20	MadWombat	,(conj 'CLOJURE)
16:20	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$conj
16:21	MadWombat	(conj Q ('CLOJURE))
16:21	MadWombat	,(conj Q ('CLOJURE))
16:21	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: Symbol
16:21	MadWombat	heh
16:22	chouser	so close.
16:22	chouser	,(conj Q 'CLOJURE)
16:22	clojurebot	<-(CLOJURE)-<
16:25	chouser	,(-> (partial conj Q) (iterate 0) (nth 3))
16:25	clojurebot	<-(<-(<-(0)-<)-<)-<
16:27	lpetit	any ccw user here ?
16:28	fogus_	,(conj Q Q Q) ;; empty calories
16:28	clojurebot	<-(<-nil-< <-nil-<)-<
16:28	lpetit	any emacs user here ? :)
16:30	chouser	PeristentQueue stopped printing as () with 1b8d5001ba094053b24c55829994785be422cfbf
16:30	chouser	so I'd guess it was unintentional.
16:32	lpetit	chouser: congrats, you were the first to write something on #clojure. You won the right to review the feature list of keyboard shortcuts of the ccw editor: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/EditorKeyBindingsFeatures ;)
16:32	sexpbot	"EditorKeyBindingsFeatures - counterclockwise - This page details keybindings and other feature of the editor - Project Hosting on Google Code"
16:32	lpetit	what is sexpbot ? what did trigger it ?
16:32	chouser	lpetit: the url triggered it
16:32	chouser	http://google.com/
16:32	sexpbot	"Google"
16:33	lpetit	chouser: isn't that a little bit too invasive ?
16:33	lpetit	,http://google.com would be less invasive, wouldn't it ?
16:33	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: http:/
16:33	sexpbot	"Google"
16:33	chouser	I haven't formed an opinion
16:33	lpetit	:)
16:34	lpetit	chouser: If by chance you really look at the page I provided, notice that the "split" between "basic edition mode" and "structural edition mode" is not done yet (that is you are in ccw either in paredit, either not)
16:35	lpetit	chouser et al: I'm currently working on "polishing" the documentation of the port of paredit to ccw, and also "easing the use of newbies" by providing a basic mode and an "advanced" mode
16:35	chouser	what's <Suppr .>
16:36	dnolen	so how long before Code Quarterly interviews rhickey ? :)
16:36	lpetit	Oh, maybe it's some french : it's the "forward delete". How do you write that in french ?
16:36	lpetit	s/in french/in english/
16:36	sexpbot	Oh, maybe it's some french : it's the "forward delete". How do you write that in english ?
16:36	lpetit	wow
16:36	chouser	meh
16:37	lpetit	who wrote sexpbot ?
16:37	chouser	Raynes, I believe.
16:37	lpetit	sexpbot: identity please
16:37	chouser	lpetit: maybe Delete or Del instead of Suppr? I'm not sure.
16:38	lpetit	chouser: Let's go with <Delete> ?
16:38	chouser	lpetit: it's not a modifier, right? you don't usually press it along with something else?
16:38	lpetit	chouser: right. why asking ?
16:39	chouser	just making sure we're communicating successfully. :-)
16:39	lpetit	chouser: is there a convention of only placing modifier keys between <> ?
16:39	chouser	no
16:40	lpetit	chouser: done for <Delete>. Other remarks ?
16:41	chouser	I want to use it! But I don't want to use Eclipse.
16:44	lpetit	chouser: When I think ccw is ready to globally impress emacs users, I'll say it on the clojure ml :). Anyway, thanks for the kind words.
16:44	chouser	Maybe if I were an emacs user I'd be content with paredit there.
16:44	lpetit	chouser: note that the underlying features for the basic and structural edition modes is pure clojure, depending only on clojure and clojure.contrib, and is available in an independent (from ccw) github repo
16:45	lpetit	chouser: you're a user of ... which editor ?
16:45	chouser	yeah, I've heard you say that. If I ever pick up textjure again, I'll be certain to look into using your code there.
16:45	chouser	lpetit: vim
16:46	lpetit	chouser: I'm not proud of the way I've written the code, but it's guarded by a bunch of unit tests, so at least it works :)
16:46	chouser	:-)
16:46	lpetit	chouser: oh vim, ok, so you're in Meikel's team :-)
16:46	lpetit	Must go to bed, thanks for the chat, cu
16:46	chouser	g'night
16:47	Licenser	bed is a good idea, night people!
16:49	riddochc	I've also broke down and started using 'rake' for dealing with building stuff...
16:50	chouser	anything that helps you write clojure code is a good thing. :-)
16:52	riddochc	chouser: Pretty much, yeah. I've been working on implementing a wiki that uses git as its storage backend in clojure + compojure.
16:53	riddochc	Just playing around, really.
16:54	chouser	excellent. That's the one thing I'm sure wave got wrong -- not building on something with complete revision semantics.
16:55	riddochc	Wave? How so?
16:55	chouser	waves have linear history. no forking, branching, merging...
16:55	chouser	your wiki will not be so constrained. :-)
16:56	riddochc	Waves as in Google Waves?
16:56	chouser	yeah
16:57	riddochc	Ahh, I see. Well, you also can commit more energy to your project... Have no fear of serious competition from me. :)
16:57	rfg	As opposed to linear wave theory.
16:59	riddochc	liner wave. Not an oxymoron?
17:00	rfg	Not in this context, no.
17:01	riddochc	Okay.
17:04	tufflax	Hm, how can I remove a specific element from a collection? I would like something that works like this: (delete 1 '(9 6 1 3 1)) -> (9 6 3 1) but after some looking I can't find anything like that.
17:06	chouser	,(remove #{1} '(9 6 1 3 1))
17:06	clojurebot	(9 6 3)
17:06	chouser	but that got rid of both. is that not what you wanted?
17:06	tufflax	no hehe
17:08	DuneMan	You want to remove the first item?
17:08	DuneMan	first occurance of an item?
17:08	tufflax	I was trying to fix the all-permutations example found at the bottom here http://kyle-burton.livejournal.com/14970.html
17:08	sexpbot	"kyle_burton: List Comprehensions in Clojure"
17:08	tufflax	yes duncanm
17:08	tufflax	oh, DuneMan
17:08	DuneMan	(next (take-while #(not (= % 1)) s)) ; ??
17:08	riddochc	Well, I might start with (take-while (comp pred) list) to get everything up to the 1...
17:09	DuneMan	er, yeah, mine is broken, riddoch is right ":-)
17:09	DuneMan	you can use ... split-at or whatever
17:09	riddochc	Ah, yeah.
17:10	tufflax	Hm, any particular reason that there isn't a simple functionfor this? :P
17:10	DuneMan	because you haven't written it!
17:10	DuneMan	:-)
17:10	tufflax	hehe
17:10	riddochc	Because usually people seem to want to remove all instances of something from a collection?
17:11	riddochc	Which is what filter is for.
17:11	tufflax	hm ok
17:12	DuneMan	so yeah
17:12	DuneMan	use (split-with
17:12	tufflax	ok, thanks
17:13	riddochc	(let [[a b] (split-with #(not (= 1 %)) '(9 6 1 3 1))] ...)
17:13	riddochc	Almost there...
17:13	DuneMan	(let [[before after] (split-with #(= % 1) col) rest (next after)....
17:14	riddochc	Then we want a new sequence...
17:14	DuneMan	(flatten [before res]))
17:14	DuneMan	or chain
17:14	DuneMan	(I'm still learning the clojure lib)
17:14	riddochc	Me too.
17:15	MadWombat	(concat (take-while #(not= 3 %) (list 1 2 3 1 2 3)) (rest (drop-while #(not= 3 %) (list 1 2 3 1 2 3))))
17:15	MadWombat	but yes, the version with let is a bit more concise
17:15	DuneMan	concat is the way to go. and yes, that does exactly the same thing without the let
17:16	riddochc	Ah, concat.
17:16	DuneMan	Of course, this is problematic if you're collection is potentially very large because you'll be holding onto the head
17:17	DuneMan	your*
17:17	MadWombat	(defn split [e col] (let [[x y] (split-with #(not= e %) col)] (concat x (rest y))))
17:18	MadWombat	should call it something else
17:18	MadWombat	or better yet
17:18	DuneMan	filter-first
17:18	riddochc	Concat doesn't return a lazy seq? I don't see where we're holding on to the head yet...
17:18	kotarak	concat is lazy
17:19	DuneMan	ah yes, indeed.
17:20	MadWombat	(defn filter-first [pred col] (let [[x y] (split-with pred col)] (concat x (rest y))))
17:21	kotarak	This holds onto col until you start consuming y in the concat.
17:22	MadWombat	probably a good usability idea is to negate the pred value, so you have to pass #(= x %1) not #(not= x %1)
17:22	riddochc	So...
17:22	riddochc	,(defn filter-first [pred s] (let [[a b] (split-with pred s)] (concat a (next b))))
17:22	clojurebot	DENIED
17:22	DuneMan	indeed kotarak
17:22	MadWombat	kotarak: hmm... yes, that is what you get with lazy sequences... lemme think
17:23	DuneMan	you need to consume the "drop-while" sequence in step with the "take-while" sequence
17:23	riddochc	Okay, fine...
17:23	riddochc	;(let [filter-first (fn [pred s] (let [[a b] (split-with pred s)] (concat a (next b))))] (filter-first #(= 1 %) '(9 6 1 3 1)))
17:23	riddochc	,(let [filter-first (fn [pred s] (let [[a b] (split-with pred s)] (concat a (next b))))] (filter-first #(= 1 %) '(9 6 1 3 1)))
17:23	clojurebot	(6 1 3 1)
17:23	riddochc	There we go.
17:23	riddochc	Um...
17:23	riddochc	Oops.
17:24	MadWombat	riddochc: #(not= 1 %)
17:24	MadWombat	riddochc: this is not a bug, this is a feature :)
17:24	DuneMan	,(let [filter-first (fn [pred s] (let [[a b] (split-with (comp not pred) s)] (concat a (rest b))))] (filter-first #(= 1 %) '(9 6 1 3 1)))
17:24	clojurebot	(9 6 3 1)
17:25	MadWombat	DuneMan: Ah! I was looking for a way to negate the pred
17:25	DuneMan	"compose"
17:25	riddochc	Or, it could take the thing you want to filter at, instead of a predicate.
17:25	riddochc	,(let [filter-first (fn [at s] (let [[a b] (split-with #(not (= at %)) s)] (concat a (next b))))] (filter-first 1 '(9 6 1 3 1)))
17:25	clojurebot	(9 6 3 1)
17:26	tomoj	shouldn't that be called remove-first ?
17:26	riddochc	tomoj: Even better.
17:26	DuneMan	tomoj: much better name
17:26	DuneMan	Honestly, in all my years of programming, one of the hardest things for me to do has always been naming thing
17:26	DuneMan	s
17:26	kotarak	,(let [filter-first (fn filter-first [pred coll] (lazy-seq (when-let [s (seq coll)] (let [fst (first s)] (if (pred fst) (next s) (cons fst (filter-first pred (rest s))))))))] (filter-first #(= 1 %) [9 6 1 3 1]))
17:26	clojurebot	(9 6 3 1)
17:27	kotarak	This does not hold unto the head.
17:27	DuneMan	hell, yesterday I needed to write a clojure function to turn a unix-timestamp-containing-string into a java Calendar.... I just stole CL's "decode-universal-time" :-P
17:27	DuneMan	kotarak: nice.
17:28	DuneMan	I've been worrying about head-holding a lot recently, because my app takes an infinite stream of data as the input......
17:28	DuneMan	badness if you accidentally pass that to a function that takes [& more]
17:28	slyphon	what's that emacs feature that lets you project specific settings in a dotfile ?
17:28	slyphon	in emacs-23
17:29	tomoj	,((fn [[& more]] (take 3 more)) (iterate inc 0))
17:29	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
17:30	riddochc	kotarak: lazy-seq + cons to the rescue, it seems.
17:30	kotarak	riddochc: low-level but flexible. Trying to press everything in higher order stuff is similar wrong as throwing lazy-seq at everything. :)
17:31	tomoj	what's the badness?
17:31	kotarak	tomoj: (apply (fn [& more] ...) ..) holds the head.
17:31	riddochc	kotarak: A good lesson for me, as I read 'real world haskell' last year before deciding I preferred clojure.
17:32	tomoj	ah
17:32	DuneMan	which is the case I ended up with
17:32	technomancy	slyphon: .dir-locals.el
17:32	slyphon	technomancy: thank you!
17:32	DuneMan	because I used "partial"
17:32	DuneMan	which does (apply ....)
17:32	technomancy	np
17:32	DuneMan	and thus I ate up many gigs of memory in short order and was very confused for a long time where my leak was
17:33	DuneMan	but in the process tuned the garbage collector for my data profile! so... it was sorta worth it...
17:33	riddochc	Is there a good way to tell when the head's being held? 'apply' holding the head really doesn't seem an obvious thing.
17:34	tomoj	I think the head is held there simply because you've got a handle to more?
17:34	DuneMan	I noticed it because my data was big enough, and my call chain structured in such a way, that no memory was getting freed
17:34	tomoj	since you can say (first more), the head is held
17:34	DuneMan	so I watched the memory with jconsole...
17:35	DuneMan	tomoj: yes. I also ran into problems with the clojure runtime not getting rid of references and thus creating leaks
17:35	DuneMan	but upgrading to 1.2 fixed that
17:35	DuneMan	and created this REALLY annoying problem that (hash-map ....) now throws DuplicateKeyException
17:35	DuneMan	whcih makes me want to kill someone.
17:35	tomoj	anyone else happen to have played with clojure+solr yet?
17:36	DuneMan	no, but I might soon... we have a project that we'd like to try with it.
17:36	kotarak	DuneMan: well, people always complained, that it is possible to create maps with duplicate keys
17:37	DuneMan	jconsole is nice.
17:39	DuneMan	kotarak: I ended up writing my own function that does the (apply merge (map (partial apply hash-map) (take-nth 2 s)))
17:40	kotarak	DuneMan: you probably mean partition instead of take-nth
17:40	DuneMan	yes, I do mean partition
17:42	DuneMan	but yeah, I suppose it's better to have the more restrictive behavior built in
17:42	DuneMan	'cause its easy enough to write the function
17:42	DuneMan	but it annoyed me int he moment :-D
17:42	kotarak	,(-> [:a 1 :a 2 :a 3] (partition 2) (map vec) (into {}))
17:42	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$vec__4296
17:42	kotarak	,(->> [:a 1 :a 2 :a 3] (partition 2) (map vec) (into {}))
17:42	clojurebot	{:a 3}
17:43	alexyk	hey guys -- I have a let [x blah] where blah needs to be measured; in repl with (time blah). How can I assign x and still print the time it took to blah?
17:43	DuneMan	Oh that's much simpler...
17:44	kotarak	,(let [s [:a 1 :a 2 :a 3]] (zipmap (take-nth 2 s) (take-nth 2 (next s)))
17:44	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:44	kotarak	,(let [s [:a 1 :a 2 :a 3]] (zipmap (take-nth 2 s) (take-nth 2 (next s))))
17:44	clojurebot	{:a 3}
17:44	kotarak	,(time 5)
17:44	clojurebot	5
17:45	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.067 msecs"
17:45	kotarak	,(let [x (time 5)] x)
17:45	clojurebot	5
17:45	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.066 msecs"
17:46	hoeck	kotarak: (apply assoc {} [:a 1 :a 2 :a 3])
17:46	hircus	alexyk: as kotarak shows, the time macro prints but then return the result of the expression it measures. a more interesting challenge will be if you want to capture both the time taken and the expression result; you'd have to capture the start and end time manually in that case
17:46	tomoj	the source of time shows how
17:46	kotarak	hoeck: viele wege führen nach Rom (und wieder zurück)
17:47	tomoj	,(System/currentTimeMillis)
17:47	clojurebot	1273182679109
17:47	DuneMan	hoeck: but if the sequence is infinite... you will hold onto the head with the apply
17:47	DuneMan	well, nevermind
17:47	DuneMan	doesn't matter in this case
17:47	DuneMan	that looks simplest.
17:47	kotarak	DuneMan: (reduce #(apply assoc %&) {} s)
17:48	alexyk	kotarak: hircus: thx!
17:48	tomoj	whoa
17:48	hoeck	a creating a map from an infinite seq isnt a good idea either
17:48	tomoj	I never knew about %&
17:48	alexyk	tomoj: thx too!
17:48	DuneMan	hoeck: indeed :-)
17:48	kotarak	DuneMan: a quark. nevermind
17:48	kotarak	partition is missing
17:48	alexyk	what's %&?
17:48	hoeck	kotarak: just wanted to be shure you are not missing a nice way (to rome) :)
17:49	tomoj	I assumed it's just like & more in a function
17:49	tomoj	,(#(seq %&) 1 2 3 4 5)
17:49	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
17:49	hoeck	DuneMan: although it would be possible with lazy maps :)
17:49	kotarak	tomoj: alexyk right. like %1 %2 but for & more.
17:50	DuneMan	is there any reason why just (apply assoc {} s) isn't good?
17:50	Borkdude	But what if Rome is Java?
17:50	tomoj	cool
17:50	tomoj	,(#(vector %1 %2 %3 %&) 1 2 3 4 5 6)
17:50	clojurebot	[1 2 3 (4 5 6)]
17:51	alexyk	cool
17:52	kotarak	DuneMan: since s is better finite, I think it's ok.
17:54	tufflax	MadWombat: (complement pred) also works.
17:57	riddochc	Hmm. Looks like clojure-contrib's .pom isn't making maven very happy: [WARNING] The expression ${artifactId} is deprecated. Please use ${project.artifactId} instead. @ org.clojure:clojure-contrib:1.2.0-SNAPSHOT, /home/socket/src/clojure/clojure-contrib/pom.xml
18:04	DeusExPikachu	wlangstroth, I found out clojure has like 5 classloaders up, it was a matter of picking the right one, and the right one seems to change, so far, using the one given by clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader seems to work, add URLs to that and everything should just work
18:05	DuneMan	.... grrr why isn't (apply assoc {} mySequence) worrrrrking.... "wrong number of arguments passed to assoc"
18:06	DuneMan	I also hate that exception. Why doesn't it tell me how many parameters were passed and how many were expected?
18:06	DuneMan	smacks java
18:07	DeusExPikachu	DuneMan, (doc assoc)?
18:07	DuneMan	(apply assoc {} [:a 1 :b 2 : a 3 :c 1}) works aight
18:07	Borkdude	DuneMan: what does mySequence look like?
18:08	DuneMan	(flatten <sequence returning [key value]>)
18:09	Borkdude	And when evaluated?
18:10	DuneMan	I'm having trouble at the moment because leiningen is v 1.1 and clojure is v1.2
18:10	alexyk	I need to pmap a big list with expensive fn. When I do pmap, I see CPU load gradually raising from 100% to 800% on my 8-core box, then dropping to 100%. Manually launching 8 agents for another job keeps it at 800% steady. Is there a way to tell pmap to just split it 8-ways and run on 8-agents? Why dips?
18:11	DuneMan	so my repl and the code are at different versions
18:11	DuneMan	wonders how to make leiningen use 1.2
18:11	alexyk	DuneMan: checl out from git
18:11	alexyk	check
18:11	alexyk	that uses 1.2
18:12	alexyk	see Hacking on leiningen
18:12	DuneMan	Bork: Ostensibly it must be something different, but I don't see how. the whole s-exp is (apply assoc {} (flatten (map (fn [[_ k v]] [(keyword (urldecode k)) (urldecode v)] s)))))...
18:12	tomoj	anyone happen to know the right <scope> to use for swank-clojure when using clojure-maven-plugin
18:13	DuneMan	where "s" is the result of a re-seq with 3 capture groups
18:13	frodwith	,(apply assoc (seq {:foo "bar", :baz "qux"}))
18:13	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$assoc
18:13	frodwith	,(into {} (seq {:foo "bar", :baz "qux"}))
18:13	clojurebot	{:foo "bar", :baz "qux"}
18:14	kotarak	seq is not necessary
18:14	alexyk	is "qux" the lisp thing?
18:14	frodwith	no, it isn't
18:14	kotarak	,(into {} {:foo :bar :baz :bob})
18:14	clojurebot	{:foo :bar, :baz :bob}
18:14	frodwith	he just has a seqence
18:14	technomancy	tomoj: you need it to be compile-scoped, which is the default
18:14	tomoj	darn
18:14	alexyk	frodwith: isn't it from "great quux"?
18:14	technomancy	tomoj: yeah, it's a very-long-standing clojure-maven-plugin bug
18:15	technomancy	one of many. =\
18:15	frodwith	alexyk: I have no idea. I picked it from The Art of Unix Programming.
18:15	technomancy	tomoj: but swank isn't GPL'd anymore, so at least now compile-scoping it is legal.
18:15	alexyk	~ google great quux
18:15	clojurebot	First, out of 1560 results is:
18:15	tomoj	I wonder what java developers working on one of these maven projects with clojure and java intertwined would think about adding the deps for clojure-maven-plugin to the poms
18:15	clojurebot	Guy L. Steele, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:15	clojurebot	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_L._Steele,_Jr.
18:16	frodwith	so anyway, DuneMan: try using into instead of applying assoc.
18:16	tomoj	maybe I can add them in an extra file which is gitignored somehow.. hmm
18:16	technomancy	tomoj: speaking of jclouds?
18:16	tomoj	yeah
18:16	technomancy	tomoj: yeah, that struck me as weird. not going to complain though. =)
18:16	DuneMan	(into {} [:a 1 :b 2]) -->> Cannot create ISeq from keyword
18:16	kotarak	bingo
18:17	DuneMan	so then you'd need the partition
18:17	kotarak	,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
18:17	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
18:17	kotarak	DuneMan: and a map vec, IIRC
18:17	DuneMan	or use into for the case where I'm getting pairs
18:17	kotarak	,(into {} (partition 2 [:a 1 :b 2]))
18:17	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
18:17	DuneMan	and apply assoc when I just have a seq
18:17	tomoj	oh, I found the deps in project/pom.xml
18:18	kotarak	DuneMan: into only works with map entries or vectors. partition is not enough
18:18	DuneMan	I actually have vectors coming out, so it works
18:19	tomoj	but swank-clojure only gets test scope
18:19	DuneMan	because I'm basically mapping a vector of 3 elements to a vector of 2 elements with transformations
18:19	DuneMan	and then I can just use into {}
18:19	DuneMan	which is quite readable.... and I didn't know about until today
18:19	clojurebot	everyday is Rich Hickey Appreciation Day
18:19	DuneMan	so thanks!
18:19	frodwith	:)
18:21	tomoj	but the classpath is all fucked up there, hmm
18:21	DuneMan	This is a wonderful place
18:23	DuneMan	works like a charm
18:23	DuneMan	awesome
18:24	tomoj	hugod: ping
18:24	hugod	tomoj: hi
18:24	tomoj	hey, do you happen to be the one who stuck swank-clojure in one of the jclouds poms?
18:25	hugod	could well be
18:25	tomoj	someone's apparently done something to try to set up a clojure dev env, but I can't see how it's supposed to work
18:25	hugod	mvn clojure:swank
18:25	tomoj	yeah, in project/?
18:26	hugod	except there's a bug in clojure-maven-plugin
18:26	tomoj	aha
18:26	hugod	http://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin/issues#issue/11
18:26	tomoj	switching it to compile-scoped didn't seem to help
18:26	tomoj	well, it got me to different problems at least
18:27	tomoj	swank started but now the classpath isn't right for the clojure sources, so you have to go and load them manually in the right order, and eventually I hit a missing dep
18:27	tomoj	wonder how the clojure code already here was written
18:31	hugod	tomoj: which sub-project?
18:31	tomoj	trying to work in the clojure stuff in aws/core
18:32	hugod	cemerick wrote that
18:32	tomoj	which requires some clj file from compute to be loaded, which requires a file from core to be loaded, which dies because of some missing google dep
18:33	tomoj	ah, thanks
18:46	MadWombat	seems like there are at least a few clojure projects running out there using google app engine, but all the directions are either outdated or cryptic.
18:47	DuneMan	here
18:47	DuneMan	How the heck can I use the "catch" special form in a macro?
18:48	DuneMan	if I have `( ..... (catch Exception e)) it complains "can't bind qualified form user/e"
18:49	AWizzArd	,(try (+ "a" 2) (catch Exception e (println e)))
18:49	clojurebot	AWizzArd: excusez-moi
18:49	MadWombat	AWizzArd: I think that is WTF in french :)
18:50	AWizzArd	yes yes, something like that.. don't know, was supposed to print something about a casting exception
18:52	DuneMan	the macroexpand gives me: (try (+ "2" 1) (catch Exception user/e nil))
18:52	DuneMan	so, yeah, 'e' becomes user/e... which is wrong
18:55	DuneMan	Ah, since I don't reference 'e' in my expression.... if I use _ it works
18:56	DuneMan	wait no, I'm wrong
18:59	DuneMan	Why isn't catch mirroring a let form?
18:59	DuneMan	(catch [e Exception] ....)
19:01	arohner	DuneMan: macros try to resolve symbols, unless quoted
19:01	DuneMan	doing 'e generates a macro with (quote e) in it.
19:02	DuneMan	er, (quote user/e)
19:02	DuneMan	So it resolves it...... then quotes that.
19:03	arohner	that 'e' should either be 'e#', which will generate a random name for the variable, or '~'e', which will use the literal symbol e, stomping on another symbol in the environment (if present)
19:03	arohner	you probably want to use e#
19:03	DuneMan	oh you have to quote the ~
19:04	DuneMan	Thanks again!
19:04	arohner	DuneMan: np
19:06	MadWombat	what is the clojure equivalent of wildcard import? If I have several files in a directory, how do I require or use all of them?
19:06	arohner	MadWombat: there's nothing built in to do that
19:07	arohner	MadWombat: you could (doseq [..] (require ...))
19:07	tomoj	did you mean for clojure files or java classes?
19:07	MadWombat	clojure files
19:07	tomoj	oh, it doesn't matter anyway
19:08	MadWombat	hmm... this is somewhat inconvenient :(
19:10	arohner	MadWombat: if you know their names, you can (doseq [file ['dir.foo 'dir.bar' 'dir.baz]] (require file))
19:10	arohner	oops, extra '
19:11	MadWombat	yes, the point was to import without knowing names
19:11	technomancy	aka "timebomb use"
19:12	arohner	MadWombat: as technomancy implies, it's unlikely to ever be a part of clojure proper
19:12	arohner	MadWombat: but writing it isn't bad
19:12	arohner	just slurp* the directory, and filter by "*.clj"
19:15	MadWombat	"timebomb use"?
19:15	MadWombat	ah! breaks when someone creates a file in that directory that clobbers namespace?
19:16	MadWombat	dired
19:17	MadWombat	wrong window :)
19:18	AWizzArd	arohner: why not file-seq ?
19:18	arohner	AWizzArd: I forgot about it :-)
19:19	arohner	AWizzArd: file-seq is a better solution
19:19	AWizzArd	k
19:36	Raynes	chouser: You should totally form an opinion on the URL title scraper. :P I've put a lot of work into making it suitable (useful) for a channel like #clojure. Pretty sophisticated blacklisting going on.
19:36	Raynes	(:
19:38	MadWombat	is there a way in emacs to open the file containing the namespace under point?
19:39	MadWombat	like point to (:use com.wombat.something) and open the file containing the something namespace
19:39	MadWombat	or switch to the buffer
19:39	technomancy	MadWombat: there's not one that knows about clojure :use clauses, but find-file-at-point will do it for regular filenames
19:40	technomancy	you could probably teach it about clojure, but M-. works just as well for that
19:41	MadWombat	hmm M-. gives me ClassNotFound exception
19:41	technomancy	oh, you need to do it with a var from the desired namespace, not on :use itself
19:48	alexyk	lancepantz: ping
19:50	lancepantz	hey alexyk
19:50	lancepantz	sup?
19:51	alexyk	lancepantz: what happens if you do db-add with tokyocabinet without a transaction? Does it roll any write in its own transaction?
19:52	ninjudd	alexyk: yes, if i understand your question correctly
19:53	alexyk	ninjudd: hey man! so you guys won't believe the comparison results vs BDB JE cupboard
19:54	alexyk	I had 5 min write and 20 min read with JE
19:55	alexyk	now I have 1.5 hrs write and 3 min read with TC
19:55	ninjudd	nice!
19:55	alexyk	with the adjacency list done as protobufs
19:55	ninjudd	1.5 hours?
19:55	alexyk	but, I didn't do transactions for TC write
19:55	MadWombat	,(contains? (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core)) 'apply)
19:55	clojurebot	false
19:55	MadWombat	wtf?
19:55	alexyk	yep, 6400 secs
19:55	ninjudd	that doesn't sound right
19:56	alexyk	out of which, if I pmap my graph with protobufs, 900 secs are spent protobuffing
19:56	MadWombat	(contains? (map str (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core))) "apply")
19:56	alexyk	I'm not using jiraph, only jiraph.tc
19:56	MadWombat	,(contains? (map str (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core))) "apply")
19:56	clojurebot	false
19:56	alexyk	I put node, protobuf adjacency list -- those Repliers I emailed earlier
19:57	alexyk	so 900 secs are spent just serializing the adjacency lists, before any writing to TC
19:57	alexyk	while reading is superfast
19:57	lancepantz	alexyk: do you know the size of the adjacency list?
19:58	MadWombat	ah!
19:58	MadWombat	,(contains? (ns-publics 'clojure.core) 'apply)
19:58	clojurebot	true
19:58	ninjudd	there may be room for improvement in protobuf, but still, that is 5600 secs to write
19:58	alexyk	but my lists are ranging from 1 to 10000 in each adjacency iist, much bigger than yours
19:58	alexyk	so the beauty is, TC read is superfast
19:58	alexyk	even at 100% CPU; vs. JE at 800%
19:58	ninjudd	oh, do you add each edge one at a time?
20:00	alexyk	ninjudd: no, I write a node and all its adges in value protobuffed
20:00	alexyk	3 million nodes and protobufs
20:00	alexyk	but, without transaction surrounding the whole write; need to test with that
20:01	ninjudd	hmm, can you send me some sample code so i can try it on my machine?
20:02	alexyk	ninjudd: sure, will github it soon
20:02	ninjudd	in my experience, it is slower to write than read, but the difference seems much larger than i would expect
20:03	alexyk	during TC write CPU is at abysmal 14%, I guess due to lack of transactions; the default db-init and db-open don't any bzip2, do they?
20:04	ninjudd	no
20:05	ninjudd	based on this, i would think writes should be fast too: http://1978th.net/tokyocabinet/benchmark.pdf
20:06	alexyk	ninjudd: so when you write a protobuf, you just (ad-add key (protobuf Foo fields)), it emits the bytestring as is, correct?
20:06	alexyk	db-add
20:08	ninjudd	yeah, are you still using defgraph to create the layer?
20:08	ninjudd	and then using the layer directly in your benchmark?
20:10	alexyk	ninjudd: no, I don't use any of jiraph except jiraph.tc, and: db-init, db-open, (doseq [[k v] ...] db-add key (protobuf ... v ...))
20:10	alexyk	and db-close
20:10	alexyk	now am gonna add (db-transaction (doseq ... db-add))
20:10	alexyk	is db-add slower than db-set?
20:11	ninjudd	alexyk: are you passing :load and :dump to db-init
20:11	alexyk	ninjudd: umm, not... should I? :)
20:12	alexyk	sounds like I should, right
20:12	ninjudd	that is what causes it to auto-load/dump protobufs
20:12	ninjudd	take a look at the code for defgraph
20:13	alexyk	ninjudd: hmm; perhaps they're automerged by default?
20:13	alexyk	because they "just work"
20:13	ninjudd	or just call defgraph and then use the layer
20:13	alexyk	protobufs I mean
20:13	alexyk	are there any options to db-init affecting speed?
20:13	ninjudd	yes, but it uses pr-str and read-string for serialization still
20:14	alexyk	ninjudd: ah! so that slows things down?
20:14	ninjudd	yes
20:15	alexyk	kk, will stick :load and :dump to db-init... it just takes a map, so I'd just do (db-init {:path ... :load :dump}) right?
20:15	ninjudd	yes
20:16	alexyk	in defgraph, it also sets :proto proto?
20:17	ninjudd	:dump protobuf-dump :load (partial protobuf-load Foo)
20:17	ninjudd	or you can use defgraph and pass :proto to a layer and it will do that for you
20:18	alexyk	do I need :proto-fields as well?
20:19	ninjudd	no
20:20	MadWombat	http://blog.mitechki.net/2010/05/06/namespace-trickery-in-clojure/
20:20	sexpbot	"Namespace trickery in Clojure « Angry UNIXoid’s Humble Abode"
20:28	alexyk	sexpbot: and who are you?
20:29	alexyk	clojurebot: who the heck is sexpbot?
20:29	clojurebot	that's cool
20:30	MadWombat	:)
20:40	Raynes	alexyk: Clojurebot speaks the truth.
20:46	slyphon	wow, java's Formatter is retarded
20:48	DuneMan	s/Formatter/*/
20:48	sexpbot	wow, java's * is retarded
20:48	slyphon	heh
20:49	replaca	slyphon: why do you say that?
20:49	slyphon	because it's frustrating me and i don't want to blame my own stupidity
20:49	replaca	what are you formatting?
20:49	slyphon	oh, gah
20:50	slyphon	,(format "%0.2f" 3.142)
20:50	clojurebot	java.util.MissingFormatWidthException: 0.2f
20:50	slyphon	,(format "%.2f" 3.142)
20:50	clojurebot	"3.14"
20:50	slyphon	in ruby the 0.2 is acceptable
20:50	replaca	ahh.
20:51	slyphon	so you see, it's totally java's fault for not being ruby
20:51	replaca	I did a version of common lisp format, but if you're used to printf-style formatting, it's probably not what you want either
20:51	slyphon	hah
20:51	slyphon	yeah, i don't need to display this stuff in roman numerals, fortunately
20:51	slyphon	;)
20:52	replaca	never know when latin will be back!
20:52	slyphon	:D
20:52	replaca	good to be ready
20:55	slyphon	it would be really funny if we got bought out an all of our timestamps were in roman numerals, come to think of it
20:56	slyphon	everyone on the team just acting like it's totally normal
20:56	ninjudd	is there a way to write a custom constructor with deftype?
20:57	Raynes	ninjudd: You can write a make-<type> function.
21:00	ninjudd	Raynes: so make-Store if my type is called Store?
21:18	slyphon	jeez, when you hook mysql connector/j up to log4j, the name of its logger is "MYSQL"
21:19	slyphon	there's something very "TIMMAH!" about that
21:25	powr-toc	if I want to extend a class that requires some state manipulation/constructor overloading, what's the best way to do it in 1.2? It seems reify is out, can I use extend or extend-type, or do I need to use gen-class?
21:26	powr-toc	tbh it looks like proxy is the best bet, but that's slower than other options, right?
21:27	maravillas	and incidentally, i'm wondering just how to define constructor overloads with gen-class, in 1.1 :)
21:28	maravillas	coincidentally, that is
21:30	powr-toc	yeah, gen-class gets a little hairy, I want to be sure I need it before biting the bullet and requiring an AOT compile step
21:32	slyphon	man
21:32	slyphon	thank god for clojars
21:32	slyphon	life would truly suck that much more if i had to set up a maven repo
22:16	thearthur	how many times will a transaction retry?
22:17	slyphon	thearthur: what do you mean?
22:20	thearthur	im asking about dosync transactions on refs
22:21	_ato	,clojure.lang.LockingTransaction/RETRY_LIMIT
22:21	clojurebot	10000
22:21	_ato	thearthur: ^
22:21	thearthur	thanks: )
22:22	slyphon	i guess the question then is, what happens when it reaches the retry limit?
22:23	_ato	it throws an exception
22:24	_ato	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/1.1.0/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LockingTransaction.java#L381
22:26	slyphon	ah, figures
22:26	slyphon	:)
22:39	livingston	I like using emacs/swank with clojure, but I need to setup some java developers to work with me, and they like eclispe, is counterclockwise the best route for them?
22:42	cemerick	that's the eclipse plugin
22:42	cemerick	or, that is, I don't know of any others
22:43	cemerick	I really need to take it and intellij out for a spin and see how they do.
22:43	livingston	ok, so I'll take that as a yes then ;) do you know if it does or will support 1.2 I'm poking around but haven't figured that out yet
22:43	cemerick	no idea
22:43	cemerick	there's a list for it I think....
22:46	livingston	also, anyone have any suggestions on books, tutorials, class material type stuff for bringing java developers up to speed on clojure (/ functional programming) ?
22:47	cemerick	livingston: "Programming Clojure" is good. The Joy of Clojure MEAP is stellar so far.
22:47	livingston	what's a MEAP ?
22:48	cemerick	hrm
22:48	Raynes	Manning Early Access Preview
22:48	cemerick	yeah, that's it
22:48	cemerick	pre-release ebook
22:48	mikem	livingston: I found "Practical Common Lisp" good reading for LISP background: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/
22:48	sexpbot	"Practical Common Lisp"
22:48	livingston	I have Programming Clojure, and like it pretty well, but that's good I hadn't heard of the other one yet.
22:48	Raynes	The first 6 chapters of Joy have been written, and if you buy the ebook, you get those chapters and all subsequent updates (with more chapters) until the book is released, and then you get the final book.
22:49	livingston	Yeah, I've been thinking about working them though the exercises in Paul Graham's book, but just do them in Clojure
22:49	cemerick	mikem: really? CL is very different from clojure philosophically.
22:49	Licenser	only thing about programming clojure might be that with 1.2 it gets a bit outdated
22:49	livingston	Licenser: I was thinking about that, but for the basics its all mostly there
22:50	Licenser	it still is (no question) a good book but exspecially for newcomers 'why isn't this working' might be a frustrating experience
22:50	mikem	cemerick: sure, but it helps to understand some of those differences. it was interesting to see how one would solve problems in a functional language
22:50	Raynes	We have books now: people can stop recommending Common Lisp books for Clojure.
22:50	Raynes	:p
22:50	mikem	i found it helpful :)
22:51	livingston	I do think Graham's exercises are more oriented toward learning an FP approach (even if it's in common lisp)
22:51	cemerick	In hindsight, I don't really like PCL. It has a very narrow perspective.
22:52	cemerick	On Lisp is my bar for judging lisp books, which might not be fair.
22:53	livingston	Yes I like Graham's On Lisp and have tought out of it before
22:54	livingston	Raynes: yes there is Halloway's book, but it doesn't have exercises and it's oriented around teaching FP, per-say.
22:54	Raynes	There is The Joy of Clojure.
22:54	Raynes	Which is more of what I was aiming for.
22:56	livingston	maybe that is good for people coming from the java side, but one particular thing I found annoying aobut Programming Clojure is it would say you can do it this way, and my face would cringe, then it would say this way is better, and I'd still be annoyed, and then it would say, but if you want a more FP way do this - and I would say, "why didn't you tell me that in the first place" (but I know common lisp very well so...)
22:56	livingston	I'll take a look at Joy..
22:56	mikem	there's another MEAP, "Clojure in Action"
22:56	mikem	haven't heard nearly as much about it, though, as "Joy"
22:56	cemerick	livingston: PC is definitely meant to be a step-by-baby-step approach
22:57	cemerick	mikem: Seems pretty stalled, really.
22:57	cemerick	compared to JoC, anyway
23:00	livingston	these are some good suggestions - thanks.
23:01	Licenser	well work time for me, take care people
23:01	livingston	I just wish one of them had exercises
23:08	livingston	wow Ch1 of Joy of Clojure kinda runs the gamut - kinda sticks you right in front of the fire hydrant
23:09	cemerick	it's definitely for grownups :-)
23:10	ninjudd	i asked about how to define a custom constructor for deftype earlier, but didn't have time to stick around and understand the answer
23:10	ninjudd	Raynes, you said add a method called make-<type>
23:10	Raynes	Function.
23:10	Raynes	You can just write your own constructor function that wraps creating the type the way you want.
23:11	livingston	cemerick: yeah, although I don't know that that's the best way to ease some java programmers in? don't want to waste time, but don't want to make it hard either
23:11	Raynes	As far as I know, there is no way to define special constructor functions in the type.
23:11	ninjudd	oh, i see
23:11	ninjudd	so that's just a convention
23:12	cemerick	livingston: depends on the caliber of the programmers. If they've not looked outside of the box they're in for years, then it'll probably lead to shell-shock.
23:13	cemerick	livingston: Clojure is formally and demonstrably simpler than Java, so it shouldn't be too rough for anyone who doesn't get hung up on cosmetics.
23:14	cemerick	The persistent data structure thing takes a shift in perspective, but...well, that's just the way it is. Certainly no harder than grokking the nightmare that is DI or something.
23:14	livingston	I agree, they want to look at it and take it seriously, but at the same time I'd like to guide them into it, and by-in-large FP will be new too
23:15	livingston	what's DI ?
23:15	cemerick	dependency injection
23:15	livingston	oh right
23:17	livingston	yeah I find Stuart's book a little slow, but Joy seems way to fast, where's the one that's "just right" ;) we have copies of Stuart's book though, so we might just start there
23:18	cemerick	I clearly don't get around much. The notion of using a book as the primary source for learning a language is so foreign to me at this point.
23:19	livingston	I kinda just started "doing it", but I'm looking to help at least 3 people learn at once, so it's good to have something to focus on and foster discussion for regular meetings
23:19	cemerick	yeah
23:20	joshua-choi	clojurebot: What do you think of Clojure?
23:20	clojurebot	clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
23:21	livingston	I also programmed in java a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, and spent the last 5 years writing some serious common lisp, so I'm pretty cool with clojure - I have my hangups, and miss some functions and expect some lisp stuff, but I'm embracing it
23:22	cemerick	I used CL for ~8 months some years ago. It just seems baroque at this point.
23:23	cemerick	Java has changed so much since I started using clojure exclusively. I hardly recognize modern java code anymore.
23:23	livingston	nah it's great (CL), concurrency is an issue though, depending on your compiler but I loved it
23:24	livingston	that's something I miss, I'd like to be able to make a reader macro, for example
23:24	cemerick	it's a remarkable thing that Rich has pushed back on that so consistently. Gives me great hope for the future.
23:25	livingston	the STM is what got me looking seriously at Clojure though, I think one needs to embrace concurrency wholesale moving into the future
23:25	livingston	pushed back on what?
23:26	cemerick	reader macros. It's been lobbied for pretty hard from some corners, but no one's been able to propose an approach that would cleanly integrate with namespaces, etc.
23:26	cemerick	It would have been a lot easier for him to just cut an implementation and not hear about it anymore.
23:27	livingston	I don't necessary want them for everyday code, but for building DSLs they can make a world of difference.
23:28	livingston	I'll have to look more at that debate sometime... but that'll have to be for another day
23:29	replaca	livingston: what do you miss from CL?
23:29	cemerick	the mailing list archive is chock-full of the discussions :-)
23:29	replaca	I missed clos for a long time, but I'm over it now
23:29	livingston	replaca: keyword parameters is one (although I hear we are getting that now)
23:30	livingston	I understand the reasons it's needed but two nils and two falses are a pain.
23:30	cemerick	yup, in the bag
23:30	replaca	livingston: well, you've always been able to do it, you just had to use a different defining form or do it yourself with destructuring
23:31	cemerick	two nils?
23:31	livingston	replaca: no you needed to have all these squigglies crud up your code
23:31	livingston	cemerick: nil and the empty list being different
23:31	replaca	?? what do you mean
23:32	cemerick	livingston: right, well, the latter isn't nil :-) That's necessary in order to make properly lazy sequences FYI.
23:32	livingston	cemerick: I know, i get why it just makes the code uglier
23:33	livingston	replaca: yeah but you can't just con's the stuff together and then call apply, your keywords need to be separate in a map from non-optional args at the front
23:34	replaca	oh, yeah, a little bit simpler version, but with c.c.def/defnk it was pretty close
23:34	replaca	no {}
23:34	cemerick	livingston: that's also a necessary tradeoff shrug
23:35	cemerick	it also simplifies things significantly -- the same set of destructuring operations regardless of context.
23:36	livingston	cemerick: yes, but I could write some really pretty stuff in CL, I'm not saying there aren't clear advantages to the affordance of Clojure that would have been a pain in CL, but until I get up to speed I'll naturally miss what I had
23:37	cemerick	sure
23:37	livingston	hey, I gotta roll,.. (promised a coworker a ride home) thanks for all the ideas everyone...