2010-05-03
| 00:02 | LeNsTR | yep |
| 00:03 | eliantor | is it a right fold? |
| 00:05 | defn | eliantor: http://gist.github.com/96861 |
| 00:05 | defn | that is |
| 00:09 | eliantor | but it consumes the stack |
| 00:09 | eliantor | does it work the same using trampoline? |
| 00:42 | joshua-choi | Question: does clojure.contrib.def/defalias work on macros? It doesn't seem to. |
| 00:44 | _ato | ~def clojure.contrib.def/defalias |
| 00:46 | _ato | hmm.. preserves metadata which should be the main thing |
| 00:46 | joshua-choi | Yeah, I thought so too, but it doesn't seem to act correctly. |
| 00:46 | joshua-choi | Can I try it here? |
| 00:47 | _ato | nah, def won't work with clojurebot |
| 00:48 | _ato | seems to work for me http://gist.github.com/387763 |
| 00:48 | _ato | I haven't tried with git master though, there's been some changes to macros |
| 00:50 | joshua-choi | Yes, I'll try git pull again for both clojure and contrib and see if that fixes it |
| 00:52 | joshua-choi | _ato: Pulling and rebuilding both clojure and contrib did not fix it for me |
| 00:53 | joshua-choi | Try using this macro instead: (defmacro a [x] `'~x) |
| 00:53 | joshua-choi | And (defalias b a) (b y). |
| 00:59 | _ato | ah.. yep doens't seem to work with 1.2 |
| 00:59 | remleduff | Do your compojure apps end up doing a ton of (str "/" var "/" var2) ? |
| 01:06 | joshua-choi | remleduff: Seems like there should be a helper method. At least (clojure.contrib.string/join "/" |
| 01:06 | joshua-choi | Ugh, I pressed enter early |
| 01:06 | joshua-choi | _ato: Can you see the reason why? Should I file a ticket? |
| 01:36 | Licenser_ | morning |
| 02:09 | defn | when i do something i a try/catch, if i am able to catch the error and fix what the problem is, will that then get evaluated? |
| 02:10 | defn | i have something like: |
| 02:10 | defn | ,(read-string "[Ljava.lang.String;") |
| 02:10 | clojurebot | java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading |
| 02:10 | defn | however, more than just this case blows up the reader |
| 02:10 | defn | so id like to just: |
| 02:11 | defn | ,(read-string "\" [Ljava.lang.String;\"") |
| 02:11 | clojurebot | " [Ljava.lang.String;" |
| 02:11 | defn | whenever it catches |
| 02:16 | Licenser_ | defn: why would you want that? |
| 02:17 | defn | while the reader doesnt like them, they are still helpful for some examples |
| 02:17 | Licenser_ | (let [s "[Ljava.lang.String;"] (= (read-string (str \" s \")) s)) |
| 02:18 | Licenser_ | ,(let [s "[Ljava.lang.String;"] (= (read-string (str \" s \")) s)) |
| 02:18 | clojurebot | true |
| 02:18 | defn | drop the ] |
| 02:18 | Licenser_ | what]? |
| 02:18 | Licenser_ | there is no ] in the string |
| 02:18 | defn | ohh sorry, had to expand my window |
| 02:19 | Licenser_ | [Ljava.langString is just a notation for a string array I think |
| 02:19 | defn | Licenser_: i know I can handle that specific case, but there are other cases ive run into like #<foo$bar> |
| 02:19 | defn | i'd like to just quit thinking about that part of the equation and escape it as a string when it comes up |
| 02:20 | defn | "oh hey this didnt work!" -> make it a string |
| 02:20 | Licenser_ | so you want to escape stuff within an expression if it fails?= |
| 02:20 | defn | -> now read it |
| 02:20 | defn | i just want to escape the whole expression as a string when it fails |
| 02:20 | defn | and go about my business |
| 02:20 | Licenser_ | but you already have the result of it |
| 02:21 | defn | right, but it's not pretty printed. I need to read-string on the code/results to pretty print them, some of the "good" results still blow up due to things like #<, [Ljava;, and other cases I'm probably not aware of |
| 02:23 | Licenser_ | (read-string (escape-as-stringe code-string)) = code-string |
| 02:23 | Licenser_ | defn: there is no difference |
| 02:23 | defn | yes, but that will escape everything i do as a string, and therefore no syntax highlighting will happen |
| 02:23 | Licenser_ | it is just eating computation power |
| 02:24 | Licenser_ | but "\" ...\"" is the same o.O it escapes everything as a sting |
| 02:24 | Licenser_ | or do you want to escape like parts of the code string as a string |
| 02:24 | Licenser_ | so (type [Lblabla;) to (type "Lblabla;")? |
| 02:24 | vIkSiT | hmm, whats the best/most idiomatic method of implementing a while loop? |
| 02:24 | vIkSiT | (loop .. ) ? |
| 02:24 | Licenser_ | vIkSiT: while? |
| 02:25 | Licenser_ | (doc while) |
| 02:25 | clojurebot | "([test & body]); Repeatedly executes body while test expression is true. Presumes some side-effect will cause test to become false/nil. Returns nil" |
| 02:25 | vIkSiT | er weird. should look that up :) |
| 02:25 | vIkSiT | i couldn't find any docs for "clojur while loop" heh |
| 02:25 | Licenser_ | $walton while |
| 02:25 | sexpbot | Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo. |
| 02:25 | Licenser_ | $example while |
| 02:25 | sexpbot | Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo. |
| 02:26 | Licenser_ | $oh go and die you stupid bopt |
| 02:26 | sexpbot | Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo. |
| 02:26 | vIkSiT | :) |
| 02:30 | Chousuke | vIkSiT: note that you need a side-effect in the condition for that to make any sense. |
| 02:31 | Chousuke | I suppose (while @running ...) is somewhat common |
| 02:34 | Licenser_ | Chousuke: don't take me the joy of making vIkSiT do a infinit lopop :P |
| 02:35 | Chousuke | :P |
| 02:41 | defn | Licenser_: erm im not sure if i see what you're saying with respect to escaping with str |
| 02:41 | defn | Licenser_: if the string cannot be read by the reader and throws an exception I want to escape it as a string |
| 02:42 | defn | "\"foo\"" works where "foo" doesn't when it comes to read-string |
| 02:42 | defn | ,(read-string "#<foo$bar") |
| 02:42 | clojurebot | java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unreadable form |
| 02:42 | defn | ,(read-string "\"#<foo$bar\"") |
| 02:42 | clojurebot | "#<foo$bar" |
| 02:43 | Licenser_ | defn: do you notice that the result of (read-string "\"#<foo$bar\"") is exactly the unescaped string? |
| 02:43 | Licenser_ | if it fails just don't use read-string at all |
| 02:43 | defn | it isn't always |
| 02:44 | Licenser_ | yes it is unless you have a " in the middle of your string, then it breaks |
| 02:44 | defn | right, but that's yet another corner case -- because many of them do |
| 02:44 | Licenser_ | assuming you escape your string correctly then the result is, by definition the same |
| 02:45 | defn | ,(read-string "[{111 #<Ref@1bc7fae5: :somestruct>} {\"bob\" #<Ref@1bc7fae5: :somestruct>}]") |
| 02:45 | clojurebot | java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unreadable form |
| 02:45 | Licenser_ | you could use (identity ) to escape and read-string it |
| 02:45 | defn | ,(read-string "\"[{111 #<Ref@1bc7fae5: :somestruct>} {\"bob\" #<Ref@1bc7fae5: :somestruct>}]\"") |
| 02:45 | clojurebot | "[{111 #<Ref@1bc7fae5: :somestruct>} {" |
| 02:46 | defn | the reader is a harsh mistress |
| 02:46 | Licenser_ | so having read-string and escape bill not only consume computation power for nothing but also add bugs ':p |
| 02:46 | defn | read-string is necessary though, im confused as to what you're saying |
| 02:47 | Licenser_ | defn: I'm saying it is not |
| 02:47 | Licenser_ | you can use identity instead of (read-string (str \" ... \")) |
| 02:47 | Licenser_ | that saves yourself trouble and time :P |
| 02:48 | defn | that doesn't make sense though? |
| 02:48 | defn | ,(pprint (identity "foo")) |
| 02:48 | clojurebot | "foo" |
| 02:48 | defn | ,(pprint (read-string "foo")) |
| 02:48 | clojurebot | foo |
| 02:48 | Licenser_ | yes thaqt is for a good case |
| 02:48 | Licenser_ | but in a bad case you can use identity |
| 02:49 | defn | ah-ha, i see what you mean now |
| 02:49 | tomoj | the problem is how to get to the bad cases |
| 02:49 | tomoj | read-string doesn't give you any hooks |
| 02:50 | tomoj | you'd have to rebuild some of read-string |
| 02:50 | Licenser_ | (let [s "bla bla"] (try (read-string s) (catch Exception _ (identity s))) |
| 02:50 | Licenser_ | ,(let [s "bla bla"] (try (read-string s) (catch Exception _ (identity s))) |
| 02:50 | clojurebot | Licenser_: It's greek to me. |
| 02:50 | Licenser_ | ,(let [s "bla bla"] (try (read-string s) (catch Exception _ (identity s))) |
| 02:50 | clojurebot | Licenser_: Titim gan éirí ort. |
| 02:50 | Licenser_ | something like that |
| 02:51 | defn | Licenser_: so will that string in the catch be passed up to pprint that lies outside of your let? |
| 02:51 | tomoj | I'd assume you want only the unreadable forms as strings, not the whole top-level form? |
| 02:51 | defn | tomoj: the top-level is fine, actually |
| 02:51 | tomoj | strange, why? |
| 02:51 | Licenser_ | (let [s "[bla bla"] (try (read-string s) (catch Exception _ (identity s)))) |
| 02:51 | defn | tomoj: most of them are pretty short |
| 02:51 | Licenser_ | ,(let [s "[bla bla"] (try (read-string s) (catch Exception _ (identity s)))) |
| 02:51 | clojurebot | Licenser_: Huh? |
| 02:52 | Licenser_ | welll that code works just not in clojurebot |
| 02:52 | Licenser_ | $(let [s "[bla bla"] (try (read-string s) (catch Exception _ (identity s)))) |
| 02:52 | sexpbot | result: [bla bla |
| 02:52 | tomoj | so.. any input which contains an unreadable form somewhere will just be passed straight through? |
| 02:52 | defn | sexpbot: yeah, they've already been evaluated in a sandbox, this is just output i want to pretty print |
| 02:52 | defn | it's just what they've been evaluated to isnt always something the reader likes |
| 02:53 | defn | #<foo$bar> for instance |
| 02:53 | tomoj | so any of them which contain unreadable forms will be ugly printed? |
| 02:53 | Licenser_ | why would you want to read the result of a evaluation? |
| 02:53 | defn | yeah, but out of 211 examples there are maybe 7 or 8 of them |
| 02:54 | defn | Licenser_: to pretty print it |
| 02:54 | Licenser_ | defn: that isn't good |
| 02:54 | Licenser_ | that will or might chane the result and that usually isn't what you want |
| 02:54 | tomoj | when would it change the result? |
| 02:55 | defn | it should just read it as code and pprint it, it's not changing anything |
| 02:56 | Licenser_ | ,"#(+ 1 %)" |
| 02:56 | clojurebot | "#(+ 1 %)" |
| 02:57 | tomoj | you're doing this to the return values of code run by bots? |
| 02:57 | Licenser_ | ,(read-string "#(+ 1 %)" |
| 02:57 | clojurebot | EOF while reading |
| 02:57 | Licenser_ | ,(read-string "#(+ 1 %)") |
| 02:57 | clojurebot | (fn* [p1__13903] (+ 1 p1__13903)) |
| 02:57 | Licenser_ | in that case for instance |
| 02:58 | Licenser_ | even worst, reader eval :P |
| 02:59 | Licenser_ | which would rip a huge security hole in your code defn |
| 03:01 | tomoj | ,(println "#=(println \"foo\")") |
| 03:01 | clojurebot | #=(println "foo") |
| 03:01 | Licenser_ | now if you read that weeh! |
| 03:02 | Licenser_ | tomoj: it'S not about printing it |
| 03:02 | Licenser_ | 'ss~ about read-string the result of an expression |
| 03:02 | tomoj | I know |
| 03:02 | tomoj | but I think the source is bot output, right? |
| 03:02 | Licenser_ | ,"#=(println \"foo\")" |
| 03:02 | clojurebot | "#=(println \"foo\")" |
| 03:02 | Licenser_ | now read-eval that :P |
| 03:02 | tomoj | so we can just print out strings that contain whatever code we want to run on defn's machine |
| 03:03 | Licenser_ | tomoj: yap |
| 03:03 | defn | ? read-string doesn't eval the code though, does it? |
| 03:04 | tomoj | indeed it does |
| 03:04 | defn | damn... |
| 03:04 | tomoj | if it's reader eval |
| 03:04 | defn | that sucks... |
| 03:04 | tomoj | (read-string "(println \"foo\")") is fine |
| 03:04 | tomoj | but (read-string "#=(println \"foo\")") will print |
| 03:04 | defn | #=... isn.t though |
| 03:04 | defn | well I can just escape #= strings |
| 03:04 | defn | that's not hard |
| 03:05 | Licenser_ | defn: it still changes the results :( |
| 03:06 | defn | Licenser_: im confused, how? |
| 03:06 | defn | http://getclojure.org:8080/examples/dorun |
| 03:06 | sexpbot | "dorun" |
| 03:07 | defn | notice example three is now formatted nicely using pprint and read-string |
| 03:07 | defn | yes you do get some weirdness with anonymous functions, but they are still largely readable |
| 03:07 | Licenser_ | defn: it's still bad practice :P |
| 03:07 | defn | if i just get rid of the #= at the beginning of a string, wont that solve the problem? |
| 03:07 | Licenser_ | no |
| 03:08 | defn | Licenser_: well then what is the elegant solution here, to not do it? i dont see how else to make this work |
| 03:08 | tomoj | suppose some code returns the string "[foo bar baz]" |
| 03:08 | Licenser_ | that sho9uld be displayed as a string |
| 03:08 | Licenser_ | defn: the sandbox already returns forms, you don't need to read-string them at all |
| 03:08 | defn | oh duh |
| 03:08 | tomoj | yeah, and you'll get a vector |
| 03:08 | Licenser_ | just don't turn them into a string :P |
| 03:08 | tomoj | I feel like there are probably weirder examples |
| 03:08 | defn | yeah definitely, that makes perfect sense |
| 03:10 | defn | cant believe i missed that |
| 03:10 | defn | thanks |
| 03:11 | Licenser_ | ;P |
| 03:11 | Licenser_ | well I got to go take care defn |
| 03:11 | defn | Licenser_: i owe you. thanks again |
| 03:12 | Licenser_ | nah it's all in a days work :P |
| 03:15 | remleduff | defn: Not sure if you solved it another way, but you can also (binding [*read-eval* false] (read-string "#=(println \"Don't print me\"))) |
| 03:15 | defn | remleduff: I think Licenser_'s solution is better. I shouldn't really be touching any of the results with read-string in the first place |
| 03:15 | defn | but thanks for that |
| 05:20 | gerryxiao | how to get current classloader? |
| 05:26 | hoeck | gerryxiao: pick one: http://java.sun.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/class-use/ClassLoader.html |
| 05:26 | sexpbot | "Uses of Class java.lang.ClassLoader (Java Platform SE 7 b66)" |
| 05:27 | hoeck | gerryxiao: eg. (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader) |
| 05:27 | Blkt | is there anyone who succesfully used clojure.contrib.sql? |
| 05:27 | hoeck | or (.getClassLoader (class {})) |
| 05:28 | hoeck | Blkt: yes, though I don't really like it |
| 05:29 | Blkt | hoeck: me neither, though I have to ask you something about tables creation |
| 05:29 | hoeck | Blkt: oh, havent used that part of contrib sql |
| 05:29 | sids | ,(clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader) |
| 05:29 | clojurebot | #<DynamicClassLoader clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader@3a8eac> |
| 05:30 | Blkt | hoeck: haven't you ever created a table with contrib sql? |
| 05:31 | hoeck | Blkt: only with plain strings, send over to the database with c.c.sql/do-commands |
| 05:32 | Blkt | hoeck: you normally used c.c.sql/insert-values or insert-rows function to add rows after that or you used strings as before?? |
| 05:33 | hoeck | right, plain strings |
| 05:33 | Blkt | thanks for the help, I think I'll do it that way too |
| 05:34 | hoeck | I am to lazy to mess around with that part of c.c.sql, what I especially like is the abstraction c.c.sql provides about connecting to a db |
| 06:01 | LauJensen | Hi guys |
| 06:09 | AWizzArd | Hello the Lau. |
| 06:16 | kzar | So when I noticed my frame's timer was still running after I closed the window I tried adding (.setDefaultCloseOperation JFrame/EXIT_ON_CLOSE).. That kind of worked except it totally killed my Java process, how can I make it behave properly? |
| 06:18 | LauJensen | kzar: I didn't catch the preceeding discussion, but sounds like you need to override onclose |
| 06:19 | LauJensen | http://github.com/LauJensen/Fluid-Dynamics/blob/master/fluids.clj#L294 |
| 06:22 | patrkris | #'x and (var x) is equivalent, right? |
| 06:22 | patrkris | *are |
| 06:26 | kzar | LauJensen: So say if my timer ends up making my move-ball function run every few seconds, if I check for running at the top of my move-ball function it kind of works. But surely I should stop the timer from trying to run all my code? I should get rid of the cause? |
| 06:27 | LauJensen | kzar: Is the code public somewhere? |
| 06:27 | LauJensen | (afk 5 min) |
| 06:27 | kzar | LauJensen: no not yet I'm just throwing it all together at the mo |
| 06:34 | LauJensen | Im trying to understand your question. You've put a (when @running) in your move-ball, but instead you want it in your timer (where it should be), but thats giving you a problem ? |
| 06:35 | kzar | LauJensen: I put the (when @running in the actionPerformed section of my panel |
| 06:35 | kzar | LauJensen: Then when I close the Frame it does stop my stuff getting run, but then when I set running back to true it's all going still |
| 06:36 | LauJensen | Sounds like you need to put your predicate in another place, ping us again when the code is up somewhere |
| 06:37 | kzar | LauJensen: OK I'll paste it but it's really bad atm |
| 06:38 | kzar | LauJensen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/98709 |
| 06:40 | LauJensen | Ok, and what exactly is running when you reset! running true after having closed, and what do you want to happen instead? |
| 06:41 | jowag | is it ok to put lazy seqs inside refs, or I have to realize the seq before putting it into the ref? |
| 06:41 | LauJensen | $(ref (range 10)) |
| 06:41 | sexpbot | result: clojure.lang.Ref@8cc09a |
| 06:41 | jowag | e.g. (alter *x* (fn [coll] (remove pred coll))) |
| 06:42 | Chousuke | jowag: it's okay as long as the seq has no side-effects |
| 06:43 | jowag | thank you |
| 06:46 | kzar | LauJensen: Well move has a println that I can watch from *inferior-lisp*. It does stop when I close the window but when I (reset! running true) it starts printing again |
| 06:46 | LauJensen | kzar: As it should - All you're stopping is the ActionPerformed listener, that doesn't stop the mouseMoved event if you trigger that |
| 06:47 | LauJensen | If the program is to die once you close it, set JFRAME/EXIT_ON_CLOSE instead |
| 06:47 | LauJensen | The shared @running ref is helpful to stop independant thread workers, but swing will bring its own house down once you EXIT from it |
| 06:49 | kzar | LauJensen: But here's the thing that concerns me, supposing I'm making this little game and I make a change. I close the window and run (game) again. Now there's two of these processes running, maybe my ball will start moving twice as fast? Also maybe my computer will slow down if there are all these things running in the background? |
| 06:49 | kzar | LauJensen: I tried EXIT_ON_CLOSE before but it then killed Java and I had to re-start slime every time I closed the window |
| 06:50 | LauJensen | Right now, you're starting a swing app, a game but you're never destroy it (ie clean all the resources), which is a bug because you're carrying state. To clean that up, you need EXIT_ON_CLOSE and yes that does bring the repl down with it - I dont know if there's a work-around for that though |
| 06:51 | eevar2 | kzar: ideally you'd calculate your ball position/movement based on the current time |
| 06:51 | LauJensen | eevar2: he's using user-input I believe |
| 06:52 | kzar | no it's all broken and not written yet |
| 06:52 | kzar | that's why I didn't want to paste it but yea you're right about the movement thing |
| 06:52 | eevar2 | well, using the clock rather than updating it per frame or something like that |
| 06:55 | eevar2 | kzar: but what's the issue? -- @running not getting set when you close the window? |
| 06:55 | kzar | eevar2: No that part works |
| 06:58 | kzar | LauJensen: Thanks for showing me the @running thing anyway |
| 06:58 | LauJensen | np |
| 07:00 | eevar2 | could also do something like (if (.isVisible frame) (recur)))))) in your drawing loop -- assuming you use immediate mode rendering |
| 07:01 | eevar2 | s/loop/thread |
| 07:01 | LauJensen | (future (while (.isVisible frame))) might be better, but its patch-work |
| 07:11 | jowag | I have a struct (defstruct s :a :b :c) and a existing map (def m {:a 1 :b 2}). How do I create struct from this map? (struct-map s m) is obviously not working |
| 07:14 | jowag | also (apply struct-map s m) is not doing it right |
| 07:15 | cgrand | kzar: you don't need @running in you current design, you simply need to call .stop on timer in windowClosing |
| 07:26 | jowag | ok, found it (apply struct-map s (flatten (seq m))) will do the trick |
| 07:29 | Borkdude | C-x b to switch buffer, C-x k <RET> to close a window -- in an internet borwser and then find out it doesn't work. What is this called? |
| 07:29 | Borkdude | s/borwser/browser |
| 07:30 | hircus | technomancy|away: ping |
| 07:35 | LauJensen | Borkdude: The disappointment of your life - same here :) |
| 07:36 | Fossi | i heard opera supports emacs keybindings at least rudimentary |
| 07:37 | Fossi | using nano and constantly pressing ctrl+w to search is more annoying though |
| 07:40 | eevar2 | ctrl+w sucks in netbeans as well. in most tabbed apps, actually |
| 07:43 | _ato | Borkdude: it's called "you should be using conkeror" |
| 07:43 | _ato | http://conkeror.org/ |
| 07:43 | sexpbot | "FrontPage - Conkeror" |
| 07:51 | Borkdude | _ato tnx, I installed it now. Does it to URL autocompletion? ;) |
| 07:51 | Borkdude | s/to/do |
| 07:52 | _ato | yeah.. I think you have to turn it on though, just a sec while I find it |
| 07:54 | _ato | url_completion_use_history = true; |
| 07:54 | Borkdude | Is there a .emacs like thing in this browser? |
| 07:54 | _ato | ~/.conkerorrc |
| 07:54 | clojurebot | I don't understand. |
| 07:54 | Chousuke | a:P |
| 07:54 | Chousuke | -a |
| 07:55 | Borkdude | tnx |
| 07:58 | Borkdude | _ato: do you have next/previous in this browser? can't find it in the tutorial |
| 07:59 | _ato | 'B' (shift b) is back, 'F' is forward |
| 08:00 | _ato | if you have a page with "Next" and "Prev" links (like a comic or reddit or something) use [ [ and ] ] (one of my favourite features, very simple but a real time saver) |
| 08:01 | mmarczyk | Conkeror! it's been ages since I used that :-) |
| 08:01 | mmarczyk | it's been a tad immature back then, gotta give it another go :-) |
| 08:01 | _ato | C-h b will give you a list of keybindings |
| 08:02 | Borkdude | I tried it with a couple of sites, everything seems to work OK until now |
| 08:04 | Borkdude | ah like XKCD, that's nice |
| 08:06 | LauJensen | ? |
| 08:10 | Borkdude | _ato: if I see a couple of links on a wikipedia page, what is the handiest thing to do when I want to open one in a new buffer? |
| 08:11 | mmarczyk | C-u f |
| 08:12 | Borkdude | cool, tnx |
| 08:12 | LauJensen | wow, thats great |
| 08:12 | mmarczyk | yeah, it is :-D |
| 08:13 | Borkdude | Not to be confused with Konqueror |
| 08:13 | LauJensen | This has got to be the best news all day - an Emacs browser :) |
| 08:13 | LauJensen | Is there any way to embed it directly in emacs ? |
| 08:14 | Borkdude | LauJensen, yes, there is swank-conkeror... so parse the html directly with slime :P |
| 08:15 | _ato | theoretically yes, but there's not a huge amount of benefit to doing so given one speaks javascript and the elisp http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsXembed |
| 08:15 | sexpbot | "EmacsWiki: Emacs Xembed" |
| 08:15 | _ato | there's actually an inferior javascript thing for emacs that will talk to conkeror |
| 08:15 | _ato | kind of like slime |
| 08:15 | _ato | doesn't work perfectly though |
| 08:17 | _ato | I just have a global keybinding which switches focus to the browser and another which switches focus to emacs (and a third which switches to the shell). |
| 08:17 | LauJensen | _ato: not following? I just meant C-x C-f in Emacs should allow you to browse to an url, and then it was actually conkeror doing the work |
| 08:17 | _ato | ah |
| 08:17 | _ato | yep |
| 08:17 | _ato | well |
| 08:17 | _ato | maybe not C-x C-f |
| 08:17 | LauJensen | _ato: How did u bind it to switch to C? |
| 08:17 | _ato | but there's a way to enable links to open in it |
| 08:17 | LauJensen | yea |
| 08:17 | LauJensen | browse-url |
| 08:19 | _ato | (setq browse-url-browser-function 'browse-url-generic browse-url-generic-program "conkeror") |
| 08:19 | _ato | I suppose |
| 08:20 | Borkdude | I recently changed it to chromium-browser, but that might change soon |
| 08:21 | LauJensen | _ato: Know of a shortcut to moving the cursor to flash |
| 08:21 | LauJensen | ? |
| 08:21 | _ato | heh, I'm actually using chromium at the moment, I switch back and forth between conkeror and chromium every now and then. Get sick of chromium's crap keyboard support and then get sick of Conkeror's gecko rendering being slow and memory hog |
| 08:21 | _ato | I really want conkeror with chromium rendering |
| 08:22 | _ato | and clojure scripting :p |
| 08:22 | Borkdude | _ato, can you give answer on how you switch to Conkeror with a key-binding? |
| 08:22 | Borkdude | and back from Conkeror to Emacs |
| 08:22 | _ato | LauJensen: nope I never found a good solution to flash, flash is one of the annoying things in conkeror |
| 08:22 | LauJensen | (.replaceAll "in conkeror" "") |
| 08:23 | _ato | Borkdude: I use the Sawfish window manager |
| 08:23 | Borkdude | ah, so it isn't an Emacs key-binding but a wm keybinding |
| 08:24 | mmarczyk | _ato: I almost believed you've decribed an actual perfect browser for a sec |
| 08:24 | mmarczyk | as it is, I share your dream... |
| 08:24 | Borkdude | yes, _ato... I do to, but then Emacs with Clojure scripting is also part of that dream? |
| 08:26 | _ato | so with sawfish I have this in config, which I probably just stole from _mst's sawfish config: http://gist.github.com/388039 |
| 08:26 | mmarczyk | it would have been cool if the Guile people had rewritten Emacs, like, 15 years ago -- we'd all have settled into a nice Scheme-based editor by now :-( |
| 08:26 | _ato | and the same for terminal, browser etc |
| 08:27 | _ato | I started writing a Clojure browser with QT Jambi actually |
| 08:27 | _ato | but QT Jambi's webkit version is old, and it's slow :( |
| 08:28 | _ato | and QT Jambi is no longer supported by Trolltech so it's kind of a dead end that way too |
| 08:28 | LauJensen | _ato: Unless you find a sponsor :) |
| 08:28 | LauJensen | It was sooooo close to _really_ good |
| 08:28 | defn | any suggestions on making it more obvious that you can click on an example to see it's result? http://getclojure.org:8080/examples/concat |
| 08:28 | sexpbot | "concat" |
| 08:29 | Raynes | sexpbot: I appreciate the stating of the obvious there. |
| 08:29 | defn | I've added some CSS to give you a different cursor when you mousover, but not all browsers play nice. |
| 08:30 | mmarczyk | defn: how about adding a notice at the top saying "you can click on an example to see its result"? :-) |
| 08:30 | defn | mmarczyk: hehe, yes but that's so...ugly :) |
| 08:30 | mmarczyk | nice page, btw |
| 08:30 | defn | mmarczyk: you can do /examples/anyfunction to see examples of that function |
| 08:31 | Raynes | So is people doing "This stuff sucks" and then 30 days later, accidentally clicking on an example and being like "Who was the idiot who designed this page?" |
| 08:31 | _ato | I guess you need some sort of arrowy-expandy button thingy |
| 08:31 | mmarczyk | 2. (class (concat 1 2)) ? |
| 08:31 | defn | yeah _ato i was thinking something along those lines maybe |
| 08:31 | mmarczyk | that's broken :-) |
| 08:31 | defn | ,(class (concat 1 2)) |
| 08:31 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.LazySeq |
| 08:31 | defn | no it's not :) |
| 08:31 | _ato | or alterntively just always show the result :p |
| 08:31 | chouser | defn: a link to the left of the bottom of each snippet (under the number)? |
| 08:32 | mmarczyk | ,(concat 1 2) |
| 08:32 | clojurebot | java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer |
| 08:32 | Raynes | $(class (concat 1 2)) |
| 08:32 | sexpbot | result: class clojure.lang.LazySeq |
| 08:32 | zmila | defn, add attribute title='click the example text to evaluate and see the result' to the enclosing <div> |
| 08:32 | defn | chouser: a la the labrepl -- yeah i think that's a good way to go |
| 08:32 | LauJensen | Raynes: I got a message via your bot the other day, saying that the s/x/y feature was implemented, subsequently I tried it out and it FAILED |
| 08:32 | mmarczyk | it's lazy, so won't break immediately, but it would help to use fully working examples |
| 08:32 | mmarczyk | $s/FAILED/SUCCEEDED/ |
| 08:32 | sexpbot | Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo. |
| 08:33 | mmarczyk | indeed |
| 08:33 | Raynes | Haha. |
| 08:33 | Raynes | s/indeed/omg/ |
| 08:33 | sexpbot | Haha. |
| 08:33 | mmarczyk | defn: except of course where it's supposed to break |
| 08:33 | defn | mmarczyk: eventually, someday, way way in the future, in a different world, i hope to add the ability to actually vote up or vote down an example |
| 08:33 | Raynes | LauJensen: How did it fail, exactly? |
| 08:33 | mmarczyk | defn: you could move the numbers to the left of the code boxes |
| 08:33 | LauJensen | in the way that it didn't react |
| 08:33 | LauJensen | _ato: Where's adblock activated in conkeror? |
| 08:33 | Raynes | LauJensen: Well, as you can see, it works now. :) |
| 08:34 | Raynes | s/Well/indeed/ |
| 08:34 | sexpbot | LauJensen: indeed, as you can see, it works now. :) |
| 08:34 | mmarczyk | defn: and display the "click for result" notice below the HR in a nice subdued grey |
| 08:34 | Borkdude | defn: can users contribute their examples? |
| 08:34 | defn | mmarczyk: cool advice |
| 08:34 | LauJensen | s/adblock/adjure/ |
| 08:34 | sexpbot | mmarczyk: cool advice |
| 08:34 | _ato | LauJensen: once you've installed M-x adblockplus-settings |
| 08:34 | defn | Borkdude: (this (is (an (example)))) <---submitted |
| 08:34 | mmarczyk | LauJensen: apparently you've just caught a sexpbot bug :-) |
| 08:34 | defn | it wont run in the sandbox of course, but it will be submitted |
| 08:35 | Raynes | LauJensen: I guess Erik didn't make that little special case user-based. I'll ask him to do it or do it myself later. |
| 08:35 | mmarczyk | defn: how about putting a bot here, on #clojure, to accept examples |
| 08:35 | Borkdude | defn: it reads examples from #clojure? where I can see the example you just told me? |
| 08:35 | defn | mmarczyk: already in progress |
| 08:35 | mmarczyk | defn: which we could submit as interesting stuff comes up in conversations :-) |
| 08:35 | Raynes | mmarczyk: Already in progress, and it uses Irclj. ;) |
| 08:35 | mmarczyk | defn: oh, great :-) |
| 08:35 | mmarczyk | cool! |
| 08:35 | _ato | ,(concat "hello" "_ato") |
| 08:35 | clojurebot | (\h \e \l \l \o \_ \a \t \o) |
| 08:36 | Raynes | defn: If it's really important, I'll get some logging into Irclj quickly. I've been putting it off. |
| 08:36 | defn | _ato: right now i dont have the continuous update thing running on my server, but it will work very soon |
| 08:36 | _ato | cool |
| 08:36 | defn | Raynes: not really important, in fact i think I can do pretty much everything i need with what currently exists without the logging functionality |
| 08:37 | Raynes | I think that defn running a walton-bot would be better than sexpbot running it. At least, unless it suddenly stops taking a month to parse logs. :p |
| 08:37 | defn | basically :on-message (add-sexp-to-ref (hunt-for-sexp message)) |
| 08:37 | defn | then every hour or so use stupiddb to serialize it |
| 08:37 | zmila | defn, why such order of examples? mix of simple ones and complicated. can you sort them? |
| 08:37 | Raynes | sexpbot has a walton plugin, but I keep it disabled because it tends to screw stuff up. |
| 08:38 | defn | zmila: also a feature id really love to add, but there have been some...shall i say...hiccups -- it's definitely the plan to have filtering functionality though |
| 08:39 | defn | also, as long as i have everyone's attention: http://github.com/defn/walton "patches welcome" |
| 08:39 | _ato | heh, could use that golf scoring scheme somebody came up with on the mailing list, symbol counts and such to score complexity and then sort by that, so the examples get progressively more complex |
| 08:39 | defn | see the wiki for stuff on the todo list |
| 08:39 | defn | _ato: ooo! link! |
| 08:40 | defn | im not a golfer, but incremental complexity scoring thingamajig sounds cool :) |
| 08:40 | Borkdude | defn: a voting mechanism a la stackoverflow would be really cool |
| 08:40 | defn | Borkdude: you're seeing the forest now! that's exactly what i intend to build |
| 08:40 | _ato | google groups search is so crap... hmm |
| 08:40 | defn | something a lot like stackoverflow |
| 08:40 | defn | only more code-specific |
| 08:41 | chouser | http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/c3bbffe417fc6fcb/bf5d1ff5a943c295 |
| 08:41 | defn | id like to spin off the code and allow people to write parsers for other languages and build a python, ruby, etc. version of the site |
| 08:41 | Borkdude | defn: how do you filter our crap examples, or erroneous ones like when somebody asks a question and first proposed faulty code? |
| 08:42 | Borkdude | s/our/out |
| 08:42 | defn | Borkdude: i use Licenser and Rayne's work -- the clj-sandbox |
| 08:42 | defn | it runs code in a sandbox and if they run, that's what you see |
| 08:42 | bsteuber | hm, I still can't get swank-clojure to work with the new meta syntax - is there something eval'ed that doesn't come from swank-clojure itself, like clojure-mode etc.? |
| 08:43 | Borkdude | so if it runs, it gets read into the site? |
| 08:43 | defn | yeah, not continuously yet, but it gets updated with new logs every couple days |
| 08:43 | Borkdude | I see. Good luck with that, it's very cool imho |
| 08:43 | defn | so: (first [1 2 3 4]) will show up on there if it's not a duplicate |
| 08:43 | defn | just for me having written it here |
| 08:44 | chouser | defn: I think this may be the "final" implementation: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/bae1846d558ad038 |
| 08:44 | defn | chouser: awesome. thanks |
| 08:45 | wlangstroth | defn: are we discussing walton? |
| 08:45 | defn | wlangstroth: indeed |
| 08:45 | wlangstroth | I've used it a bunch - I love the new look |
| 08:45 | defn | wlangstroth: thanks man. my friend did that for me. he's working on a front page |
| 08:47 | wlangstroth | defn: is there a way to force it towards certain results? For instance, when I do http://getclojure.org:8080/examples/for it gives me for *and* format |
| 08:47 | sexpbot | "for" |
| 08:47 | wlangstroth | any way around that? |
| 08:48 | defn | it can be quite fun when someone asks, "how do i reverse a map {:a 3 :b 4} and sorts by value" or something like that, or a question about destructuing -- doing /examples/let is pretty interesting to see how powerful destructuring can be |
| 08:48 | defn | wlangstroth: im working on some filtering that will let you be specific to symbols instead of strings |
| 08:48 | wlangstroth | nice |
| 08:49 | defn | wlangstroth: really glad you like it :) |
| 08:50 | defn | wlangstroth: submit a feature suggestion via github issues if you have the time |
| 08:50 | defn | it keeps things visible for me -- lots of ideas on functionality, but only so much time and all that |
| 08:51 | wlangstroth | okay, np |
| 08:54 | Borkdude | one paredit question: if I have (foo "bar" "baz"|) how do I swap "bar" and "baz"? |
| 08:55 | mmarczyk | C-M-t between "bar" and "baz" |
| 08:56 | defn | test |
| 08:57 | Borkdude | tnx.., although Gnome opens a terminal window for me now, have to fix that ;) |
| 08:57 | _ato | defn: have you heard of the squeak (smalltalk) method finder? |
| 08:57 | wlangstroth | Is anyone clear on why there's a next and rest? I was under the impression that ISeq was always meant to return nil if empty (like next does). Is rest a special exception to that? |
| 08:58 | Chousuke | wlangstroth: rest is the norm |
| 08:58 | defn | _ato: i havent |
| 08:58 | mmarczyk | wlangstroth: that used to be true, but hasn't been for a long time now |
| 08:58 | wlangstroth | mmarczyk: okay, that's what I figured it was - thanks |
| 08:58 | _ato | defn: someone mentioned that here before (or on the list) and it's a really cool idea that you might like for walton as well... basically.. |
| 08:59 | _ato | defn: it's for finding a function when you don't know it's name. You give it some arguments and an expected result and it gives you back a function name |
| 08:59 | _ato | so you'd enter: 2 3 => 5 |
| 08:59 | _ato | and it'd reply: (+ 2 3) => 5 |
| 09:00 | _ato | presumably you could implement it by just brute-force trying a big list of pure functions |
| 09:00 | _ato | and try it with the arguments reordered too, as the user may not know the right order for them |
| 09:00 | defn | _ato: i started working on something like that actually |
| 09:00 | defn | called whatfn -- i havent really touched it, but it's inspired by _why's "what_method?" |
| 09:00 | defn | (what? [1 2 3] [3 2 1]) |
| 09:01 | defn | => (reverse [1 2 3]) |
| 09:01 | defn | your version seems like it might be easier |
| 09:02 | defn | it'd be cool to say (what? ["a" "b" "c"] ["B" "C" "A"]) |
| 09:02 | Raynes | defn: I can work with that. |
| 09:02 | _ato | haha, I looked at your github and it's like: usage: (what? ...) and I think awesome! he's already done it |
| 09:02 | _ato | http://github.com/defn/whatfn/blob/master/src/whatfn/core.clj |
| 09:02 | _ato | but the clj was bare :( |
| 09:02 | Raynes | defn: Isn't his version the exact same "easy" version I proposed when we were talking about it the other night? ;) |
| 09:03 | _ato | ;-) |
| 09:03 | defn | Raynes: _ato haha i became a bit obsessed with making it better and better before i even started |
| 09:03 | defn | i want it to chain functions and do all sorts of crazy inference engine AI type stuff |
| 09:03 | defn | but your version is so much more doable |
| 09:04 | mmarczyk | ...then at some point you could say (what? --a-huge-number--) and get back (nth-mersenne-prime 53) ;-) |
| 09:04 | _ato | haha |
| 09:04 | defn | :) |
| 09:04 | defn | it'd be filled with easter eggs, for sure |
| 09:04 | defn | see: wolfram alpha :) |
| 09:04 | wlangstroth | The idea of making a function look-up the most powerful tool in the universe is hilarious. |
| 09:06 | defn | wolfram alpha: please promise to solve all my problems and then do a mediocre job across the board |
| 09:07 | Borkdude | Twitter is the Wolfram Alpha for questions that do not have numerical answers |
| 09:07 | wlangstroth | They really missed the boat on some funny UI features. For instance, with anything the search can't answer, it should return "Thinking ..." or "Processing ..." |
| 09:07 | wlangstroth | (and never actually answer the question) |
| 09:07 | defn | wlangstroth: hahaha -- that'd be great |
| 09:08 | wlangstroth | People would likely figure that it was thinking REALLY hard, or that they broke it. |
| 09:08 | Borkdude | wlangstroth: it would be great if it could decide whether the problem is indecidable or not |
| 09:08 | wlangstroth | Borkdude: you mean for things like unsolvable differential equations? |
| 09:08 | defn | "I'm stuck. Sent email to Stephen Hawking..." |
| 09:09 | defn | "You've heard of Fermat's last theorem, right?" |
| 09:09 | defn | an infinite number of fun responses :) |
| 09:09 | wlangstroth | defn: I like "currently on the phone with Stephen Hawking". Imagine how that conversation would sound. |
| 09:09 | defn | wlangstroth: brilliant. :) |
| 09:10 | defn | "Using second life line." |
| 09:10 | wlangstroth | haha |
| 09:10 | wlangstroth | (what? "life") |
| 09:10 | defn | => 42 |
| 09:10 | wlangstroth | => "Contacting Richard Dawkins and the Dalai Lama" |
| 09:11 | defn | hahahahaha |
| 09:11 | defn | => "Daniel Dennett may know this one! Seriously!" |
| 09:11 | wlangstroth | That would be for (what? "consciousness") |
| 09:11 | Borkdude | "Have you thought about this yourself already?" |
| 09:11 | Borkdude | "RTFM" |
| 09:12 | wlangstroth | "Please hold ... accessing Daniel Dennett" |
| 09:12 | defn | => "Contacting Christopher Hitchens for a pithy response..." |
| 09:12 | Borkdude | "Gathering responses from Twitter..." |
| 09:12 | defn | actually, what would be great is if it can't answer the quesiton, it just gets a completely random twitter message about Justin Bieber |
| 09:13 | defn | i think that'd really send the whole thing home |
| 09:13 | wlangstroth | haha |
| 09:13 | defn | Or how about this: it presents a dialog: "Is this your IP?" [Yes/No] |
| 09:13 | defn | "Stay where you are." |
| 09:13 | wlangstroth | I haven't even seen this Bieber kid, but someone told me he's causing teenage girls to trample each other |
| 09:14 | defn | it's a bit of pop culture I'm not so happy to admit I'm aware of |
| 09:14 | defn | my little brother tweets exclusively about his hatred for the boy -- more important things to be chatting about i say, but to each his own |
| 09:16 | wlangstroth | true nuff. Here's another open-ended question: would I be stepping on anybody's toes if I wrote more detailed documentation for clojure core? |
| 09:17 | defn | wlangstroth: i don't think so.. i mean i look at it like this: even if you are duplicating effort, it's a fantastic way to learn more for yourself, and provide content for others |
| 09:17 | defn | i say have a go at it |
| 09:18 | Borkdude | defn, it would be great to combine the most useful (upvoted...) examples into the clojure documentation |
| 09:18 | wlangstroth | I'm already doing it to learn, but I guess we'll see if anyone's into it once I've finished |
| 09:19 | defn | Borkdude: maybe at some point that could happen, but that'd largely be at rich and others' request/authorization |
| 09:19 | wlangstroth | Borkdude: the examples are exactly what I was thinking about. Take the example for "for": |
| 09:19 | wlangstroth | ,(doc for) |
| 09:19 | clojurebot | "([seq-exprs body-expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by zero or more modifiers, and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightmost fastest, and nested coll-exprs can refer to bindings created in prior binding-forms. Supported modifiers are: :let [binding-form expr ...], :while test, :when test. ( |
| 09:20 | defn | yeah...oof... |
| 09:20 | Borkdude | defn: wlangstroth: maybe you can have a contrib like approach to the documentation, when it will be used enough it can end up in the official documentation at some point? |
| 09:20 | defn | i mean maybe im a simpleton, but that text just does not immediately say to me: "here's how you use 'for'", which ought to be the aim of such a docstring |
| 09:21 | Borkdude | defn: amen |
| 09:21 | wlangstroth | We'll try that. I don't think Rich has my CA yet. I only mailed it a couple of weeks ago, though. |
| 09:21 | defn | i suppose one problem is that docstrings are not meant to be so long-winded |
| 09:21 | defn | it might be nice to have a bit of meta that points to a good example |
| 09:21 | Blkt | hello everyone |
| 09:21 | Borkdude | defn: wlangstroth: I also miss "also see ..." in the docs |
| 09:21 | wlangstroth | defn: exactly - I'm not suggesting a replacement (except for "for", maybe, because that one completely confused me as a beginner) |
| 09:22 | _ato | heh |
| 09:22 | defn | yeah, same here -- im still a bit iffy on using it |
| 09:22 | _ato | it chopped off the useful part of that docstring: |
| 09:22 | defn | im pretty much a beginner though |
| 09:22 | _ato | (take 100 (for [x (range 100000000) y (range 1000000) :while (< y x)] [x y])) |
| 09:22 | wlangstroth | Borkdude: that's a bit tougher to do, though, and I think it's just Tom who's working on the docs, so his hands are full |
| 09:23 | defn | the thing with clojure is than 6/10 times viewing the actual source is more helpful than the docstring |
| 09:23 | defn | the docstring itself is a very well thought out version of the reasoning that exists in the code |
| 09:23 | defn | and once you see the code you say "ahhhh!" |
| 09:23 | Borkdude | defn: how can I view the source in emacs btw? |
| 09:23 | defn | but for people not familiar with FP it is very weird at first |
| 09:23 | defn | Borkdude: do you use slime? |
| 09:23 | Borkdude | defn: yes |
| 09:24 | chouser | yeah, I use 'source' about as much as I do 'doc' for most things |
| 09:24 | chouser | not including gen-class |
| 09:24 | defn | put your pointer at (foo|) |
| 09:24 | defn | and hit M-. |
| 09:24 | defn | (zipmap|) for instance |
| 09:24 | defn | where the | is your pointer |
| 09:24 | defn | hit M-, to get back to your repl |
| 09:25 | Borkdude | defn: no context for finding locations. |
| 09:25 | Borkdude | I guess I have to use the clojure-src.jar or smth? |
| 09:25 | defn | hmm, weird |
| 09:25 | defn | im just using M-x slime with all of the ELPA packages, slime-repl, slime, clojure-mode, swank-clojure |
| 09:25 | Borkdude | defn sorry I dit C-M-. |
| 09:25 | Borkdude | did |
| 09:25 | Borkdude | it works |
| 09:26 | defn | cool -- that's insanely helpful |
| 09:26 | defn | it should be one of the first things people learn once they're up and running with a slime repl |
| 09:26 | rhickey | want serializable data structures in 1.2? Move this patch forward now: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/281-make-more-datastructures-serializable |
| 09:26 | defn | took me a month or two :X |
| 09:26 | sexpbot | "#281 - Make more datastructures serializable (Test) | Clojure | Assembla" |
| 09:27 | peregrine81 | unless you use Vim! |
| 09:28 | defn | vim and emacs will i think eventually fall out of favor when IDE support really gets rolling. there are a lot of fantastic projects that exist right now, but i think it's still an argument as to whether they beat emacs + slime + paredit yet |
| 09:29 | defn | a nice refactoring browser would squash anything vim or emacs has to offer |
| 09:29 | Borkdude | defn: which IDE support is the best up till now you think? |
| 09:29 | peregrine81 | defn: agreed but many people still use emacs or vi for every day programming. |
| 09:29 | defn | Borkdude: i dont know enough, but i thought enclojure was quite good |
| 09:29 | LauJensen | defn: You're wrong and speaking out of ignorance |
| 09:29 | peregrine81 | Counterclockwise was very good. |
| 09:29 | zmila | there is no argument for those who has 6+ years using Eclipse, but only two or three times runned emacs |
| 09:30 | Borkdude | defn: I started ClojureBox in the beginning, but I had some classpath problems |
| 09:30 | wlangstroth | LauJensen: you always enter with a bang, I'll give you that |
| 09:30 | Borkdude | defn: then I started using Eclipse + CounterClockwise, but the obliged paredit made me feel sick, because I didn't know that yet |
| 09:30 | LauJensen | Not meant harshly mind you :) |
| 09:30 | Borkdude | So then I switched to emacs, using elpa swank clojure, and it's the best I've used so far |
| 09:31 | wlangstroth | LauJensen: I think everyone is familiar with your love of emacs |
| 09:31 | defn | LauJensen: maybe-- i won't try and act like i know everything about emacs, vim, enclojure, etc. I was swayed by Uncle Bob's comments on Smalltalk, refactoring browsers, etc. |
| 09:32 | Borkdude | LauJensen, do you do Java development in Emacs, without any other IDE? |
| 09:32 | defn | JDE is pretty good for emacs |
| 09:33 | LauJensen | defn: Emacs big win is integration. You have fantastic editing tools, which makes you so much faster than the guys sitting in these big IDEs, you have IRC, Gist, Git, SVN, Hg integration at your fingertips, testing is built in, organizing/planning is built in - You can start Emacs in the morning and not close it till you release, because literally everything is in there - the payoff is effectiveness like you wouldn't believe |
| 09:33 | defn | familiarity will always play a role. i don't know. I love emacs and have no good reason to switch, but I have faith that the proper combination of features could make me switch. |
| 09:34 | defn | LauJensen: yeah but one thing i love one moment and hate the next with emacs: choice |
| 09:34 | defn | there are too many damned choices. it's distracting |
| 09:34 | LauJensen | huh? |
| 09:34 | defn | i spent 8% of my time in emacs configuring emacs |
| 09:34 | LauJensen | Odd, I spend like 0.01% :) |
| 09:34 | Borkdude | defn: I was thinking how touch screens would change the need of remembering key combinations for paredit. It's much more intuitive to just select some sexp elements and move them around with your finger maybe? |
| 09:35 | defn | LauJensen: im just suggesting that choice can sometimes be a problem. it's something i value in emacs one minute, and find distracting the next. |
| 09:35 | Raynes | Speaking of Git, is there a way to make Magit pull from a different repository than the default one? Like, you can change where it pushes with a prefix argument. |
| 09:35 | LauJensen | defn: Sure I understand. Like comparing Ubuntu to Arch. Arch takes a lot longer to set up initially, but once you have a working config, its trail blazing |
| 09:35 | licoresse | defn: I agree, (choice) |
| 09:36 | defn | LauJensen: but im never finished setting up emacs. there's always one more tweak, one more hotkey i think of, one more function i should write. |
| 09:36 | defn | sometimes i dont want to know how much power i have |
| 09:36 | LauJensen | hehe |
| 09:36 | defn | LauJensen: that being said i am 100% happy with emacs and wouldn't switch for all the tea in china, as they say |
| 09:37 | LauJensen | All I can say is, that its not been a problem for me, but then maybe Emacs isn't for everybody. I just dont think it's going to be blown out of the water anytime soon |
| 09:37 | wlangstroth | vim and emacs are like different languages: are we going to argue about whether English or German is a "better" language? |
| 09:37 | LauJensen | defn: And me on the other hand, I would switch for all the tea in china :) |
| 09:37 | defn | LauJensen: yeah i will agree, not blown out of the water, but you just..nefver..know.. :) |
| 09:37 | defn | LauJensen: haha |
| 09:37 | LauJensen | wlangstroth: no, German is clearly better |
| 09:38 | defn | wlangstroth: i dont think there was ever a vim/emacs duel going on here |
| 09:38 | defn | it's what works for you |
| 09:38 | wlangstroth | haha |
| 09:38 | Borkdude | Why would you need vi when you have a vi mode for Emacs? ;) |
| 09:38 | wlangstroth | so is there actually a large demand for serialized data structures in clojure? |
| 09:39 | wlangstroth | I didn't see anyone jumping when Rich posted that |
| 09:39 | Borkdude | LauJensen: do you use Arch btw? |
| 09:40 | defn | wlangstroth: it'd be nice. im using them now. since refs are db-like in their concurrency semantics I find the idea of serializing structures quite appealing. |
| 09:41 | defn | as i understand it you can serialize structures earlier than 1.2 but maybe im misunderstanding something |
| 09:43 | LauJensen | Borkdude: Yes its installed, although Ubuntu is my main OS atm until I get my partitions sortedo ut |
| 09:43 | wlangstroth | defn: I'm having difficulty seeing the added value, but I might be misunderstanding Java serialization. |
| 09:46 | _ato | I think it might be useful for some of those distributed computing libraries |
| 09:46 | _ato | sending objects across the network seamlessly etc |
| 09:47 | _ato | I don't know enough about java's serialization to be able to fix that patch |
| 09:48 | _ato | if it just needs reformatting then no problem, it applies cleanly for me |
| 09:49 | wlangstroth | _ato: the first diff to the patch just added "Serializable" to each of the data structures, I think (which is all you're supposed to do in Java, but clojure already has the immutable structures ... I'll obviously have to research this more) |
| 09:53 | wlangstroth | _ato: do you mean other concurrency libraries in Java? |
| 09:53 | cemerick | rhickey: regarding 281 (serialization) -- by "moving it forward", do you mean making the patch apply, or are there any outstanding technical issue? |
| 09:53 | cemerick | issues* |
| 09:55 | rhickey | cemerick: whichever. I'm not sure what Brian meant by this: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/e8a9c7392bd82fd6 |
| 09:58 | cemerick | rhickey: From his comments on the ticket, it sounds like he was concerned about transients. Either way, shouldn't be too difficult to skin that cat so that reasonable things happen (e.g. throw an exception when attempting to serialize a transient, or maybe (probably not) cons up a persistent copy, and serialize that). |
| 09:59 | rhickey | cemerick: transients are non-serializable, please |
| 09:59 | cemerick | sure |
| 10:00 | cemerick | rhickey: I can claim that issue, if Brian's not going to get it in in time. Is there a window you have in mind for the RC? |
| 10:00 | rhickey | cemerick: great! ASAP |
| 10:01 | rhickey | cemerick: If he was worrying about encountering an inner node that was under modification by a transient while traversing from a persistent root- that can't happen. And since the transient roots are different type, making them non-Serializable is sufficient |
| 10:03 | cemerick | rhickey: OK; in any case, I'll be adding a metric ton of tests to ensure that the right things happen. This is one of those things that, if a regression slips through, one doesn't find out about it until the regression is bound to cause serious problems. |
| 10:04 | rhickey | cemerick: It would be great to see this in 1.2, and in the hands of an interested party :) |
| 10:11 | AWizzArd | Are there plans to have deftype/defrecord produce no constructor, so that users will be forced to use my provided factory fn? |
| 10:12 | chouser | AWizzArd: how would your factory fn be written if there were not constructor? |
| 10:14 | chouser | Raynes: just turn them off |
| 10:14 | Raynes | chouser: I can't. I've tried in a thousand different ways. |
| 10:14 | Raynes | I guess a library or something that I require is turning them on. |
| 10:14 | chouser | :-( |
| 10:15 | Raynes | I can set it with binding, set!, anything. They still show. :| |
| 10:15 | defn | ahh, that's mean of them |
| 10:15 | chouser | have you tried using set! immediately after 'require'ing all your libs? |
| 10:15 | Raynes | No, I didn't try that. I assumed that it was happening when the libs were required. |
| 10:16 | chouser | yeah, it may be |
| 10:16 | Raynes | As soon as they are required, around 30 reflection warnings fly my way. |
| 10:16 | chouser | I'm very sorry. sounds horrible. |
| 10:16 | Raynes | I'm tempted to hunt down which library is doing it and then beg for them to shut it off. |
| 10:17 | defn | Raynes: is this in irclj? |
| 10:17 | defn | ill hunt down the bandit :) |
| 10:17 | Raynes | http://gist.github.com/388130 |
| 10:17 | Raynes | defn: No, it's in sexpbot. |
| 10:18 | Raynes | That's more than 30. |
| 10:18 | Raynes | :o |
| 10:18 | defn | Raynes: just open a new repl and (use '...) each of them one by one |
| 10:18 | Raynes | Good idea. |
| 10:18 | Raynes | I'll do that in a moment. |
| 10:20 | _ato | or: mkdir /tmp/blah; cd /tmp/blah; for lib in ~/src/sexpbot/lib/*.jar; do unzip $lib; done; grep -R 'warn-on-reflection' . |
| 10:20 | hiredman | pfft |
| 10:20 | Raynes | Found it. |
| 10:20 | Raynes | clj-apache-http |
| 10:20 | Raynes | Bad news, man. |
| 10:20 | hiredman | use finf |
| 10:20 | hiredman | use find |
| 10:21 | _ato | hiredman: find inside jars? or you mean find to filter to clj files before grepping? |
| 10:21 | AWizzArd | chouser: the factory could be inside the defrecord form |
| 10:22 | AWizzArd | So the defrecord could produce a private constructor or something like that. |
| 10:22 | chouser | AWizzArd: ah, I see. I haven't heard of any plans like that. |
| 10:22 | _ato | http://meshy.org/~ato/clojure-group-stats/ |
| 10:22 | sexpbot | "Clojure group subscriber count graph" |
| 10:22 | _ato | seems it gains 4 or 5 subscribers a day |
| 10:23 | AWizzArd | chouser: this could potentially be a protection from data corruption. |
| 10:33 | Raynes | For great justice! I've done it! No more reflection warnings. |
| 10:39 | Borkdude | Ah, the kill-other-buffers in Conkeror is really what I need |
| 10:41 | LauJensen | Borkdude: hotkey ? |
| 10:41 | Borkdude | dunno, I just do M-x |
| 10:41 | cemerick | rhickey: are you aware of the prependss type in core.clj? |
| 10:41 | LauJensen | Borkdude: its not bound by default I see |
| 10:41 | Borkdude | M-x k tab o tab <RET> |
| 10:43 | Borkdude | one more thing I need to find out is how to give the focus back to the window, so it listens to "g", "c" etc, when I am in GTalk inside Gmail |
| 10:43 | Borkdude | without using the mouse that is |
| 10:46 | Borkdude | ah, escape |
| 10:46 | Borkdude | damn this browser is cool ;) |
| 10:50 | LauJensen | its super fantastic incredible and outstanding |
| 10:57 | Raynes | Whoa whoa whoa! Who uses GTalk? ;o |
| 10:57 | Borkdude | Raynes: I do, smth wrong? :) |
| 10:58 | Raynes | Totally not. I just didn't realize people actually used that. |
| 10:58 | Raynes | :o |
| 11:00 | Borkdude | Raynes: what do you use |
| 11:00 | Raynes | I use IRC. |
| 11:00 | Raynes | :p |
| 11:00 | Borkdude | Me 2 ;) |
| 11:00 | defn | I use gtalk, irc, aim -- pidgin makes the whole maze of chat networks pretty manageable |
| 11:00 | defn | but irc for all "srs bsns" of course |
| 11:00 | Raynes | I use pidgin for MSN. |
| 11:01 | Raynes | But I haven't been using it recently, because all the interesting people are here or in #clojure-casual. |
| 11:07 | LauJensen | if I could, I would use Conkeror for everything :) |
| 11:12 | rhickey | cemerick: what about prependss ? |
| 11:14 | cemerick | rhickey: I figured it was a typo? |
| 11:15 | rhickey | ss = symbol/seq |
| 11:15 | rhickey | just an internal fn Steve used for load stuff |
| 11:15 | wthidden | Q: what is the difference between load-file and load-reader? |
| 11:18 | cemerick | rhickey: FYI, the existing patches on 281 are not comprehensive. |
| 11:18 | rhickey | cemerick: ok |
| 11:19 | rhickey | what's missing? |
| 11:20 | bhunji | I love Lisp, is there love in Clojure? |
| 11:20 | Raynes | We're all like a bunch of hippies in here. |
| 11:21 | cemerick | rhickey: PAMap and PQueue so far. |
| 11:21 | bhunji | Raynes: thats good loving mon |
| 11:21 | cemerick | rhickey: Any objections to putting Serializable on the abstract classes, as opposed to scatting it across all the concrete impls? |
| 11:21 | cemerick | scattering* |
| 11:22 | rhickey | cemerick: any drawbacks? |
| 11:24 | cemerick | rhickey: Not that I can tell. Maybe the false implication that any derivee will get serialization for free, when they'd probably have inner classes they'd still have to mark appropriately. |
| 11:24 | cemerick | Third parties should mostly be using the interfaces, anyway. |
| 11:24 | rhickey | cemerick: you'd just need to audit that all derivees in Clojure itself are in fact serializable |
| 11:27 | cemerick | rhickey: I'll root around. Aside from transients (which appear to have their own class hierarchy anyway), any other candidates for exclusion off the top of your head? |
| 11:28 | rhickey | cemerick: exclusion via what mechanism? one problem with Serializable as a mixin tag interface is you can't get rid of it |
| 11:29 | cemerick | rhickey: If the vast majority of derivees are rightly serializable, the outliers can add a writeObject method that throws an exception. |
| 11:29 | rhickey | cemerick: sounds icky, is that convention? |
| 11:30 | cemerick | rhickey: it would be icky. That's definitely the easiest route. |
| 11:31 | rhickey | cemerick: how hard is the hard route, really? |
| 11:31 | cemerick | There isn't much convention in this area, I don't think -- I've already spent more time thinking about serialization this morning than most devs think about it their entire career. |
| 11:31 | cemerick | </snark> |
| 11:31 | rhickey | heh |
| 11:32 | cemerick | The hard route is for the outlier in the hierarchy to implement Externalizable, which carries two methods (read/write), and is preferred over the default ObjectOutputStream regime. |
| 11:33 | rhickey | cemerick: my preference it to put it on the concrete classes. OTOH, one of the built-in icky things is that any base that has data must be Serializable, so Obj would bring it in in a lot of cases |
| 11:34 | rhickey | cemerick: but Externalizable isn't for opting out, it's for customizing, right? |
| 11:34 | cemerick | rhickey: right, one reason why I figured we should just put it on the abstracts. |
| 11:34 | cemerick | ostensibly, but nothing keeping you from tossing an exception there, either. :-P |
| 11:35 | rhickey | my long-term strategy is to get rid of Obj, but it seems to me the 'hard' alternative is to mark the concrete leaves Serializable |
| 11:36 | cemerick | Moving "Serializable" strings around isn't a big deal, just tedious and error-prone. |
| 11:36 | rhickey | all derivees of ASeq will get it from there |
| 11:37 | rhickey | cemerick: it's more error prone to inherit Serializable and forget to defeat it |
| 11:37 | cemerick | insofar as Obj (or its successor)'s derivees are values, then they *should* be serializable. |
| 11:38 | rhickey | I'd say, take waht you get for free from Obj, then put the rest on the concretes |
| 11:38 | cemerick | OK |
| 11:39 | cemerick | There needs to be a large warning that default Serialization is *not* for long-term storage. |
| 11:39 | stuartsierra | Isn't that a given with Java serialization? |
| 11:39 | cemerick | At least until Obj implements Externalizable, and delegates to print-dup or something. |
| 11:39 | cemerick | stuartsierra: decidedly not |
| 11:39 | stuartsierra | oh |
| 11:39 | rhickey | cemerick: still need to audit ASeq derivees to ensure all are truly Serializable or fault as you described |
| 11:40 | cemerick | Yeah |
| 11:40 | cemerick | If I find any issues, we'll still have to use the writeObject trapdoor. |
| 11:41 | rhickey | cemerick: right, ok for now, and we can remove when Obj goes away |
| 11:42 | cemerick | stuartsierra: just think of all those in-process databases that allow you to quick-and-easy persist any object. |
| 11:42 | AWizzArd | cemerick: when you say that default serialization is not for long-term storage, do you then mean a) objects such as defrecords from Clojure, or b) jvm objects in general? |
| 11:42 | rhickey | cemerick: should move Serializable from AFn to AFunction I think? |
| 11:43 | stuartsierra | cemerick: I thought they all relied on schema mappings, like Hibernate |
| 11:43 | cemerick | rhickey: er, yes, but why is AFn Serializable to begin with? |
| 11:45 | rhickey | cemerick: used to have data, and is base of some data structures |
| 11:46 | cemerick | AWizzArd: c) objects whose classes are apt to change in the future |
| 11:46 | rhickey | cemerick: but fns should serialize ok |
| 11:47 | cemerick | rhickey: how much do they capture? |
| 11:47 | cemerick | stuartsierra: Many do, many don't |
| 11:47 | rhickey | cemerick: the things they use. Obviously if they close over something non-serializable that won't work, but otherwise ok |
| 11:48 | cemerick | Oh, I remember this now. |
| 11:48 | cemerick | Along with a discussion about equality of fns. |
| 11:49 | rhickey | the latter is a philosophical discussion we should avoid at present |
| 11:49 | cemerick | yes |
| 11:49 | replaca | rhickey: I saw you scheduled the defmulti ticket. Do you want a ticket and patch for the corresponding declare issue as well? |
| 11:50 | rhickey | replaca: sure, thanks. I haven't had time to dig into that yet |
| 11:50 | replaca | rhickey: ok, cool. I have no idea if my approach is the right one or not, so make sure you audit! :-) |
| 11:51 | rhickey | replaca: ok. |
| 11:51 | rhickey | bbl |
| 11:54 | cemerick | ooh, clojure's build stomped on my pom.xml. Nice! :-D |
| 11:59 | cemerick | ouch: |
| 11:59 | cemerick | ,(= (into clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY (range 5)) (into clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY (range 5))) |
| 11:59 | clojurebot | java.lang.NullPointerException |
| 11:59 | stuartsierra | cemerick: Ant eats POMs for breakfast. |
| 12:00 | cemerick | stuartsierra: my carefully-crafted POMs, in particular. Thank goodness for local IDE history. |
| 12:01 | stuartsierra | You need you POMs set in stone, to make them POM-o-granites. |
| 12:04 | _brian2_ | noob question> can someone show me how to call this java constructor which uses a cast in clojure : http://clojure.pastebin.com/yFXbEKSQ |
| 12:05 | stuartsierra | _brian2_: just call it, no casting needed |
| 12:05 | _brian2_ | ok, thnks |
| 12:05 | stuartsierra | np |
| 12:06 | AWizzArd | _brian2_: (let [compiled-classifier (AbstractExternalizable/compile classifier)] ...) |
| 12:06 | _brian2_ | ok, thnks |
| 12:06 | mmarczyk | ,(.equiv clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY) |
| 12:06 | clojurebot | java.lang.NullPointerException |
| 12:13 | _brian2_ | AWizzArd: going back to my previous question, is this equivelant? (def compiledClassifier (. AbstractExternalizable compile classifier)) |
| 12:25 | cemerick | mmarczyk: I've got a patch for that now. |
| 12:25 | mmarczyk | cemerick: oh cool, can't wait to read it :-) |
| 12:26 | cemerick | Not much to it, I think it was just a copy/paste issue. |
| 12:27 | mmarczyk | equals has the same problem |
| 12:27 | cemerick | yup |
| 12:31 | Moominpapa | Hi, could someone help a newbie get Compojure working under Windows? |
| 12:31 | Moominpapa | I've got it built, but I'm trying to build a .ps1 file to run "Hello World" |
| 12:32 | cemerick | rhickey: you'll want this in 1.2: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/331 |
| 12:32 | sexpbot | "#331 - Fix PersistentQueue equality methods (New) | Clojure | Assembla" |
| 12:33 | lrenn | So, I'm trying to use clojure from an ant task. This means clojure isn't on the system classpath, but is in the class.getClassLoader. I can reference clojure but RT.init fails since it's trying to use the system classloader. I can get around this by Thead.currentThread().setContextClassLoader(this.class.getClassLoader()) |
| 12:34 | lrenn | However, I'd like to avoid using any java, and write my tasks uses clojure and gen-class. Is there anyway to this without java? |
| 12:38 | chouser | lrenn: you might be able to aot-compile some clojure to do that kind of setup for youe |
| 12:38 | chouser | you |
| 12:40 | lrenn | chouser: the tasks themselves are aot compiled. Oddly enough, this all worked fine in clojure 1.0. |
| 12:41 | lrenn | 1.0, worked fine with pure clojure and gen-class. 1.1.0, can't find clojure/core.clj during RT.init. |
| 12:41 | _brian2_ | Moominpapa: as a fellow noob, I suggest not bothering with windows, it's an extra level of complication, atleast go with cygwin |
| 12:42 | Moominpapa | Yeah, I spent several days on Ubuntu in VMware |
| 12:42 | Moominpapa | Which worked, but was slower than treacle. |
| 12:43 | _brian2_ | yea , you need a lot of memory for that |
| 12:43 | Moominpapa | This was my next shot. |
| 12:43 | Moominpapa | Well, I've got 8G. |
| 12:43 | _brian2_ | hmm |
| 12:43 | Moominpapa | So maybe I just need to assign more to the instance. |
| 12:43 | _brian2_ | dont know |
| 12:43 | Moominpapa | Nor do I :) |
| 12:44 | Moominpapa | It's annoying, I've solved everything else, including how to get lein to work on Windows (that was painful) |
| 12:44 | Moominpapa | Maybe I'll try cygwin :) |
| 12:44 | _brian2_ | i suggest cygwin, its better than vmware route for this kind of thing |
| 12:45 | _brian2_ | vmware is great for testing cluster's etc |
| 12:46 | Moominpapa | Annoying, it was really easy to get working (barring a keyboard issue) but the performance wasn't really usable. |
| 12:46 | Moominpapa | Query: |
| 12:47 | Moominpapa | You still use Windows Java with Cygwin, or is there a special version? |
| 12:47 | _brian2_ | no |
| 12:47 | _brian2_ | everything is more or less transparent |
| 12:48 | _brian2_ | no special version of anyhthing |
| 12:48 | Moominpapa | That sounds promising. |
| 12:48 | rsh | do futures run on a fixed size thread pool? |
| 12:49 | chouser | no |
| 12:49 | chouser | blocking in a future is ok |
| 12:52 | Blkt | is there a way to source-level debug Clojure? |
| 12:54 | chouser | Blkt: many java debuggers work, such as jswat and the one in netbeans |
| 12:55 | Blkt | chouser: no way to have something like that with Emacs? |
| 12:55 | chouser | dunno. is there a java debugger for emacs? |
| 12:56 | _brian2_ | Moominpapa: I also suggest downloading clojure box which is a windows prgram (and works in cygwin) |
| 12:56 | Blkt | dfa2: we |
| 12:57 | Moominpapa | Aaaaah |
| 12:57 | Moominpapa | That I didn't know about. Thanks :) |
| 12:57 | _brian2_ | good learning tool |
| 12:58 | Moominpapa | I'm mostly a .NET developer, but I'm feeling the need to learn something new and stop seeing things in terms of the tools I'm using. |
| 12:59 | chouser | beware -- learning clojure and then not being required to use something else instead can threaten one's mental health. |
| 12:59 | chouser | er |
| 12:59 | chouser | -not |
| 12:59 | chouser | man, what a way to ruin a joke. :-P |
| 13:00 | Moominpapa | lol (at the joke) |
| 13:00 | _brian2_ | i was hoping that clojure would solve all my problems |
| 13:03 | Moominpapa | So far, I've merely been encountering them. Six hours to "Hello World" and counting (yeah, I can do it in a repl) |
| 13:11 | _brian2_ | Moominpapa: its a steep climb, I wasn't a lisper, but now I'll never go back, for me just dispensing with loops and indexes was enough |
| 13:14 | Moominpapa | C#'s already got rid of those :) (kinda) It's multi-methods that interest me. |
| 13:14 | Moominpapa | I'm looking forward to reconfiguring the way I look at things |
| 13:15 | tufflax | Can one return multiple values in Clojure, as with 'values' in Common Lisp? |
| 13:15 | hiredman | clojure uses the normal java method call stack, so no multiple returns |
| 13:15 | tufflax | ok |
| 13:15 | chouser | tufflax: no, but it's not uncommon to return a vector of multiple values and use destructuring in the caller |
| 13:16 | hiredman | you can emulate multiple returns with binding and set! |
| 13:16 | chouser | but that's not idiomatic or recommended. :-) |
| 13:16 | tufflax | ok, thanks guys |
| 13:18 | hiredman | chouser: the docs for binding suggest that it is |
| 13:19 | hiredman | in fact it is the only mentioned use for binding, none of this resource management stuff :( |
| 13:19 | hiredman | "Bindings created with binding cannot be seen by any other thread. Bindings created with binding can be assigned to, which provides a means for a nested context to communicate with code before it on the call stack." |
| 13:20 | hiredman | before it, not after it |
| 13:20 | chouser | yeah, but how often have you seen that used? |
| 13:21 | chouser | I think it's mentioned because it's a non-obvious feature, not because it's recommended. |
| 13:21 | chouser | the only place I've seen that done extensively is in the clojure compiler itself. |
| 13:21 | chouser | it's a bit scary and slated for removal, I believe. |
| 13:22 | hiredman | once the only legitimate use of binding is removed we can remove binding |
| 13:22 | hiredman | actually the only place I have used that extensively is in a compiler |
| 13:23 | chouser | (binding [*foo* 0] (do-a-thing 5 "please") (prn *foo*)) ; <- printing anything other than 0 is scary |
| 13:23 | hiredman | *shrug* |
| 13:24 | hiredman | you don't call it *foo* you call it *result2* |
| 13:24 | cemerick | rhickey: record serialization doesn't work because of a namespace reference in there somewhere. |
| 13:25 | Moominpapa | I just figured out the classpath problem. The classpath was fine. The example I was using was junk. Should have been "compojure.core" |
| 13:25 | hiredman | (with-multiple-results (call 1) (println *result2*)) |
| 13:25 | Moominpapa | Still don't work ofc... :) |
| 13:25 | cemerick | rhickey: if that can't be eliminated, then I can make namespaces sorta-kinda serializable (i.e. just have them look themselves up upon "deserialization"). |
| 13:26 | tufflax | chouser btw, I incidentally I saw your blog post "My path to Clojur" today :P How is your project euler solving coming along? |
| 13:26 | chouser | tufflax: heh. haven't touched it in ages. |
| 13:26 | tufflax | hehe, I have done it with python so far, I was thinking i should try some with clojure soon |
| 13:27 | chouser | actually, that's not quite true. I've spent much of the last week trying to fix up one of my solutions for inclusion in the book. I don't think it's going to make the cut, though. |
| 13:27 | tufflax | Clojure is a bit harder to learn than python, python one can learn in like an afternoon |
| 13:28 | chouser | tufflax: I think it depends on what you're used to. But yes, if like me you have background in a "wide variety" of procedular syntaxy languages, clojure's a bit steep at first. |
| 13:28 | chouser | project euler helped keep it fun. |
| 13:28 | tufflax | But learning python, and seeing the difference between python and java was what made me get around to trying lisp |
| 13:30 | tufflax | well, back to learning :=) |
| 13:35 | Moominpapa | Got it working! Thanks for the help :) |
| 13:36 | Moominpapa | And now my wife wants me... :) |
| 13:37 | cemerick | rhickey: ok, the namespace serialization issue ended up being straightforward, never mind. |
| 13:39 | eslick | Is there a way to have namespace A use symbols from namespace B such that if namespace C uses A it also gets the public names from B? |
| 13:40 | chouser | eslick: not in a way that's recommended, I think. |
| 13:41 | chouser | of course C can use B directly |
| 13:41 | Raynes | chouser: What about D? ;) |
| 13:42 | chouser | or A can provide its own vars that have the same names and are bound to the same values as B's. |
| 13:44 | eslick | I regularly want to use utilities from multiple contrib namespaces and my own and am tired of cutting and pasting the same set of standard utility references to (ns (:use ...)) |
| 13:44 | eslick | So either I have a namespace that consolidates all these references that I can use |
| 13:44 | eslick | Or I can write a macro and insert it after the (ns ) statement which uses the appropriate libs |
| 13:45 | Licenser | greetings my lispy freinds |
| 13:45 | eslick | This must be a common convenience issue, I was wondering if there was a canonical answer |
| 13:45 | eslick | (although heading off to grab lunch now...back soon) |
| 13:49 | SynrG | if B's public things are really A's public things, shouldn't they be made so explicitly, then? (def b b/b) or so |
| 13:52 | SynrG | except def is probably not right :p |
| 13:54 | stuartsierra | Duplicating Vars in multiple namespaces leads to subtle bugs. |
| 14:01 | eslick | What I really want is to have a "group alias" that allows me to :use names from multiple namespaces with a single reference. |
| 14:02 | eslick | so (:use my.libs.core) also gets me the equivalent to (:use clojure.contrib.str-utils) |
| 14:02 | chouser | There are some replacement ns macros floating around that may have that kind of capability. |
| 14:02 | eslick | I used to have a 're-export' macro for CL that put third-party package symbols on the export list of a package |
| 14:02 | eslick | I'll check it out, thanks chouser |
| 14:03 | chouser | But I think your own function to 'refer' what you want would be easy to write and not a bad idea. |
| 14:05 | chouser | wouldn't even have to be a macro. just (defn refer-common-set (doseq [x '[clojure.contrib.seq compojure.core ...]] (refer x))) |
| 14:05 | chouser | hm. though that's still 'naked use' which isn't so great. |
| 14:06 | chouser | a function that requires and aliases a bunch for you might be ok. |
| 14:07 | eslick | A simple convention could be to :use 'my.utils.core which provides a simple function (use-standard-utils) which sucks in all the stuff I usually want to use |
| 14:07 | eslick | Then I just insert that after my ns statement and get the namespace I want |
| 14:08 | cemerick | it's very unfortunate that the signatures of set and sorted-set aren't the same. |
| 14:08 | chouser | hash-set and sorted-set are the same |
| 14:08 | chouser | hash-set and sorted-set have the same signature |
| 14:09 | chouser | set is like vec |
| 14:09 | cemerick | hrm |
| 14:09 | cemerick | yeah, but the fact that the latter is backed by the former is an impl detail |
| 14:09 | cemerick | oh, I see what you're saying |
| 14:10 | cemerick | I guess there should be a set-by to go with set and vec, then, to make everything analogous. |
| 14:10 | cemerick | (not that I'm actually suggesting that right now) |
| 14:11 | chouser | yeah, I see what you mean. |
| 14:22 | cemerick | chouser: how can I reliably ensure I'm getting a chunked seq? |
| 14:23 | mmarczyk | a really nice Clojure question on SO: |
| 14:23 | mmarczyk | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2760017/producer-consumer-with-qualifications/2760224#2760224 |
| 14:23 | sexpbot | "Producer consumer with qualifications - Stack Overflow" |
| 14:23 | chouser | do you mean something other than 'chunked-seq?'? |
| 14:23 | mmarczyk | I posted an answer |
| 14:24 | mmarczyk | but maybe some of you guys have better ideas (or comments on mine) :-) |
| 14:25 | Chousuke | mmarczyk: I think you should use java's BlockingQueue thingies instead of making your own |
| 14:25 | LauJensen | mmarczyk: you should use while instead of empty recurs |
| 14:26 | mmarczyk | LauJensen: right, thanks, that's a must! (going to fix it now) |
| 14:26 | mmarczyk | Chousuke: I guess so, but I was curious to see how it would work out without interop (except for sleep) |
| 14:27 | mmarczyk | Chousuke: I guess I might edit in an alternate version based on a blocking queue to make the answer more useful to the OP |
| 14:29 | AWizzArd | ~max people |
| 14:29 | clojurebot | max people is 283 |
| 14:30 | LauJensen | I think its a fine a very readable example, so if that was what you were gunning for, I think you got it right :) |
| 14:31 | mmarczyk | good to hear that, thanks :-) |
| 14:32 | mmarczyk | although I now notice I was supposed to have producers block if the queue gets too long, oh bother... going off to fix it |
| 14:35 | LauJensen | ,(doc add-watch) |
| 14:35 | clojurebot | "([reference key fn]); Experimental. Adds a watch function to an agent/atom/var/ref reference. The watch fn must be a fn of 4 args: a key, the reference, its old-state, its new-state. Whenever the reference's state might have been changed, any registered watches will have their functions called. The watch fn will be called synchronously, on the agent's thread if an agent, before any pending sends if agent or ref. Note that |
| 14:36 | LauJensen | Why are watchers still experimental ? Are they going away ? |
| 14:43 | stuartsierra | I think they're experimental because not many people have used them, thus the API hasn't been thoroughly tested. |
| 14:43 | mmarczyk | ugh, fixed now, but producer is a bit uglier now |
| 14:43 | mmarczyk | I've used them just now to monitor queue lengths :-) |
| 14:43 | mmarczyk | just for debugging / general interest, though |
| 14:44 | LauJensen | stuartsierra: ah okay |
| 14:47 | cemerick | rhickey: FYI, excluded EnumerationSeq and IteratorSeq so far. I still need to do some trolling for potential transient targets and add more tests, but this is looking pretty decent so far: http://github.com/cemerick/clojure/commit/5d7224cd9f0 |
| 14:47 | Licenser | I'm sing them for the swing stuff to update the gui when something chanes |
| 14:58 | rsh | mmarczyk: i'd be interested to see how you would write it with java blocking queue; also, what is the overhead associated with an empty recur as opposed to a while? |
| 14:59 | mmarczyk | rsh: there's no overhead (except some time spent macro expanding), as while is implemented in terms of (loop [] ... (recur)) :-) |
| 14:59 | mmarczyk | rsh: as for the blocking queue version, I'm interested to see how I'd write it myself ;-) |
| 14:59 | mmarczyk | rsh: so I suppose I'm going to do it in a moment |
| 15:00 | mmarczyk | rsh: mostly I'd like to substantiate my claim that the code "would be easy to adapt" to a Java queue |
| 15:01 | mmarczyk | not all like it, though, I actually got downvoted :-) |
| 15:01 | mmarczyk | oh well |
| 15:02 | alexyk | I need to unroll a nested sequence, writing key pairs numbered: (doseq [[k1 v1] s] (doseq [[k2 _] v1] (put [k1 k2] i)) # I need to produce consequtive i's. Can this be done in doseq, or I'd have to use a loop? |
| 15:11 | rsh | mmarczyk: can you explain why you used (ensure queue) instead of just @queue ? |
| 15:13 | mmarczyk | rsh: to prevent write skew |
| 15:13 | mmarczyk | rsh: if two producers found that (count @queue) is 3, they'd both place items on the queue |
| 15:13 | mmarczyk | rsh: with ensure this won't happen |
| 15:14 | mmarczyk | rsh: similarly with consumers; I wouldn't want two consumers to take the same element off the queue, then have the queue popped twice |
| 15:15 | mmarczyk | ,(doc clojure.contrib.seq-utils/indexed) |
| 15:15 | clojurebot | "([s]); Returns a lazy sequence of [index, item] pairs, where items come from 's' and indexes count up from zero. (indexed '(a b c d)) => ([0 a] [1 b] [2 c] [3 d])" |
| 15:16 | mmarczyk | alexyk: see above; the lib is called c.c.seq in HEAD |
| 15:17 | alexyk | I read, from a database, a sequence where each element has the form, [[k1 k2] v]. I need to create from them a nested map, {k1 {k2 [v ...]}} -- is there a faster way to do it than update-in? |
| 15:17 | alexyk | mmarczyk: thanks! Did it with a nested reduce (fn [i [k v]] ...)) for now |
| 15:18 | alexyk | in the nested map, v's are conj'ed into an array |
| 15:32 | mmarczyk | rsh: I added a java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue-based version |
| 15:32 | mmarczyk | rsh: it is indeed almost the same as the original :-) |
| 15:33 | mmarczyk | alexyk: do you need the ordering of the vs to be preserved? |
| 15:33 | rsh | mmarczyk: cool i'll take a look |
| 15:35 | rsh | mmarczyk: how does ensure work under the covers? do the other transactions block until the transaction that got it first completes? |
| 15:36 | mmarczyk | ensure acquires a read lock on the Ref |
| 15:37 | mmarczyk | so if some other transaction attempts to commit changes to an ensured Ref, it will fail and retry |
| 15:38 | mmarczyk | if you never modify the ensured Ref in a transaction, that read lock will last you until the end of the transaction try |
| 15:38 | mmarczyk | if you do, it will be released prior to acquiring the write lock when doing alter or sth |
| 15:38 | mmarczyk | because read locks cannot be upgraded |
| 15:39 | mmarczyk | so that's one scenario where another transaction could possibly slip in |
| 15:39 | mmarczyk | get a lock after you released your read lock, but before you manage to acquire the write lock, I guess |
| 15:39 | mmarczyk | if I understand the situation correctly... |
| 15:40 | mmarczyk | but consistency is still guaranteed, because your trans will notice that something is amiss and retry |
| 15:40 | alexyk | mmarczyk: v's can be shuffled |
| 15:40 | mmarczyk | alexyk: in this case, you could do two things |
| 15:40 | mmarczyk | alexyk: the first one you could do anyway and that's moving to a transient map |
| 15:41 | mmarczyk | alexyk: the second is splitting the work in chunks, building a couple of maps in parallel, each based on a subset of the data |
| 15:41 | mmarczyk | alexyk: then merging the maps at the end |
| 15:41 | mmarczyk | alexyk: this might make sense if your dataset is large enough |
| 15:42 | mmarczyk | alexyk: you'd want to perform the merging with this function: |
| 15:42 | mmarczyk | ,(doc merge-with) |
| 15:42 | clojurebot | "([f & maps]); Returns a map that consists of the rest of the maps conj-ed onto the first. If a key occurs in more than one map, the mapping(s) from the latter (left-to-right) will be combined with the mapping in the result by calling (f val-in-result val-in-latter)." |
| 15:42 | mmarczyk | alexyk: the `f' you'd be passing to merge-with would have to take care of concatenating the v vectors |
| 15:43 | mmarczyk | alexyk: this is where some shuffling could conceivably occur, depending on how you handle things |
| 15:50 | alexyk | is there an update-in! yet? |
| 15:51 | mmarczyk | nope :-( |
| 15:52 | alexyk | so if I run merge-with on a vector of a million triples, converting each to a small map, is it silly? |
| 16:03 | mmarczyk | um, that's a bit hard to tell without knowing how did you come by all those triples ;-) |
| 16:04 | mmarczyk | if it's all data from your db and you'd really like to merge it, then perhaps do a test run and see if it's fast enough |
| 16:04 | mmarczyk | oh, now I'm not sure if I understood your question correctly |
| 16:04 | mmarczyk | merge-with accepts arguments which already are maps |
| 16:06 | rsh | mmarczyk: your linkedblockingqueue solution really cleared up some things for me, thanks for your help. The only other question I have is that you use poll to prevent waiting forever..what is the clojure idomatic way of killing a thread if necessary? |
| 16:17 | alexyk | if I reduce over triples, and find nested map is absent, do I get better performance creating it with (hash-map k v) vs. {k v} ? I.e., will the latter lead to changing the underlying map when it grows larger? |
| 16:17 | Chousuke | measure it :) |
| 16:18 | Chousuke | though my guess would be that the difference is negligible |
| 16:18 | alexyk | Chousuke: I want the theory, not mere practice! :) |
| 16:19 | alexyk | the underlying will be destroyed anyways as it's not persistent... so probably just at one step a different thing will succeed previous one, indeed |
| 16:21 | Chousuke | are you trying to write update-in!? |
| 16:22 | Chousuke | or was it you who asked about it? |
| 16:22 | mmarczyk | rsh: I'm not sure there is a general method of killing a Java thread, but in this case I now notice that I'm doing it all with futures and so could just hold on to them and kill them off with future-cancel at the end |
| 16:23 | Chousuke | there's the stop method of the Thread class, but it's deprecated |
| 16:24 | replaca | dnolen: ayt? |
| 16:24 | Chousuke | it's the only way to really kill a thread though. |
| 16:24 | dnolen | replaca: hola |
| 16:25 | replaca | dnolen: hey, I wanted to give you a heads up that pprint is changing (moving into core and losing it's gen-classing), so we'll want to change the macroexpand in swank too |
| 16:26 | mmarczyk | Chousuke: I myself have witnessed it not work, though :-( |
| 16:26 | replaca | dnolen: we'll keep it in contrib (deprecated) for another release, so it's not that much of a hurry, but it's on my mind today :-) |
| 16:26 | mmarczyk | (um, actually I meant to say "have myself") |
| 16:27 | dnolen | replaca: cool, does this pertain to specific project of mine that you want to see patched for this change? (sorry a bit slow today) |
| 16:27 | replaca | dnolen: didn't you add pprint to swank ages ago? Or is my memory getting fuzzy... |
| 16:28 | dnolen | replaca: I did the first pass (in 2008 or something), but jochu actually tweaked my code quite a bit. |
| 16:29 | technomancy | dnolen: that still leaves you as the person most qualified to patch it. =) |
| 16:29 | technomancy | but I'll do it eventually if you don't. |
| 16:29 | dnolen | technomancy: haha :) |
| 16:29 | dnolen | sure I can look into it. |
| 16:30 | dnolen | replaca: are those changed pushed already? |
| 16:30 | dnolen | changed -> changes |
| 16:30 | replaca | yeah, I had to expand a macro this weekend (when I didn't have contrib loaded) and it was a disaster. |
| 16:30 | replaca | I was very sad :-) |
| 16:30 | dnolen | replaca: ahh, so this was already pushed? |
| 16:30 | replaca | dnolen: I just added the patch this morning, but I think it will go through very quickly |
| 16:31 | replaca | dnolen: nah, I was working on my fork |
| 16:31 | dnolen | replaca: ok just to be clear, what do I need to do to reproduce? |
| 16:32 | leifw | is there a transpose function that works on lazy-seqs? |
| 16:33 | leifw | namely, (transpose '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) #=> ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)) |
| 16:33 | leifw | wait that's just zip |
| 16:33 | leifw | haha |
| 16:34 | replaca | dnolen: once the patch gets pushed, load clojure w/o contrib on your path. Then expand a macro. Ewww! (though no different from what would happen in 1.1) |
| 16:35 | dnolen | replaca: ok, will do. |
| 16:35 | replaca | dnolen: But in 1.2, pprint will be clojure.pprint (and *also* clojure.contrib.pprint). But in the next release, clojure.contrib.pprint will go away |
| 16:36 | replaca | dnolen: so, like I say, no real hurry |
| 16:36 | technomancy | replaca: congrats on the promotion |
| 16:36 | technomancy | you haven't had many changes to it recently, have you? |
| 16:36 | replaca | technomancy: thanks much |
| 16:36 | technomancy | because the downside of not being able to fix bugs on your own can really be a bummer. =\ |
| 16:37 | replaca | technomancy: no, not too much. I did make sure to close out the one open ticket before promoting it :-) |
| 16:37 | clojurebot | technomancy is to blame for all failures |
| 16:37 | dnolen | replaca: I suppose we want the fix to work with 1.1 and 1.2 ? what's the approach that was decided upon for supporting multiple version of Clojure? |
| 16:37 | technomancy | clojurebot: shut up, you. |
| 16:37 | Borkdude | ,(apply map list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) |
| 16:37 | clojurebot | ((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)) |
| 16:37 | clojurebot | Pardon? |
| 16:37 | replaca | dnolen: I don't know - I would just try both, since we're trying things there anyway |
| 16:38 | replaca | when we decide that 1.1 is acient history we can stop trying and charge blindly ahead |
| 16:38 | replaca | knowing that we have what we need |
| 16:38 | replaca | *ancient |
| 16:39 | leifw | Borkdude: doesn't work on lazy seqs I don't think |
| 16:39 | technomancy | I would like to support 1.1 in swank for a while, but if macroexpand turns ugly a few releases down the line I think that's acceptible. |
| 16:39 | replaca | technomancy: There are still some big changes under the hood to come for pprint/format to support higher performance. But Stu promises that the delays won't be too bad :-) |
| 16:39 | leifw | Borkdude: yeah definitely doesn't |
| 16:39 | technomancy | replaca: yeah, it has helped a lot bringing Stu on board. |
| 16:42 | replaca | technomancy: the last few weeks have been a flurry of activity! I feel like we're getting some fit and finish as well as big conceptual features. More smart people with good taste = an even better language :-) |
| 16:43 | Borkdude | leifw, I didn't follow what you wanted, just saw the zip/transpose thing |
| 16:43 | technomancy | replaca: inc |
| 16:44 | technomancy | (anyone else find themselves usinc inc instead of +1 in circumstances where they won't be understood?) |
| 16:44 | replaca | technomancy: admit it: you're a member of a cult :) |
| 16:44 | Borkdude | It's where others use InterlockedIncrement, inc sounds better |
| 16:45 | replaca | technomancy: Q: is me having clojure as a dep in autodoc causing the problem that Joshua reported on the list? |
| 16:45 | technomancy | replaca: pretty sure that's the culprit, yeah |
| 16:46 | replaca | technomancy: and Q2: what's the best practice for pushing the fix to clojars, should I just push over the existing version 0.7.0 or make a new version? |
| 16:46 | technomancy | replaca: I'd do 0.7.1 |
| 16:46 | technomancy | might be able to get away with overwriting it since the code didn't change, but that's very iffy. |
| 16:47 | replaca | technomancy: k, thx! |
| 16:47 | stuarthalloway | replaca: I am seeing an issue with the new clojure group-by in the contrib pprint. Ok if I fix it? |
| 16:49 | replaca | stuarthalloway: sure. where's the issue? |
| 16:49 | replaca | stuarthalloway: oh, in the examples? |
| 16:49 | stuarthalloway | what I am seeing (locally) is the issue caused by group-by being promoted to clojure |
| 16:49 | stuarthalloway | but I don't know why it wouldn't have broken the build |
| 16:50 | replaca | stuarthalloway: what file? We don't AOT everything in contrib & we don't load the examples during testing. |
| 16:50 | stuarthalloway | yeah, this is making no sense atm |
| 16:52 | stuarthalloway | replaca: nevermind. ancient build lurking on my machine |
| 16:52 | replaca | stuarthalloway: ahh, ok |
| 16:59 | leifw | Borkdude: thanks for the help though |
| 16:59 | leifw | I think I got it |
| 17:00 | stuarthalloway | replaca: the pprint move looks pretty good. anything in particular I should check before I mark it screened for Rich? |
| 17:00 | leifw | I'm just in a state where what I expect and what is true about lazy sequences are quite different, and I don't have a great handle on what functions are allowed to work with them and what aren't |
| 17:00 | leifw | but it's all good now, I believe, my job continues to run |
| 17:04 | leifw | whoo yeah |
| 17:26 | tcepsa | Is there a recommended way of using log4j in Clojure namespaces that you're going to compile into classes? |
| 17:28 | tcepsa | I'm trying to set up a logger but don't know how that would look; usually I create them a private static variables, but I can't figure out how to get the class name to instantiate the logger and I don't know how to make it static or private (though I can probably find the last two; it's the getting-the-class-name-to-Logger/getLogger that I'm having trouble with). |
| 17:33 | eslick | Does count eval lazy sequences? |
| 17:35 | dakrone | eslick: looks like it does to me |
| 17:35 | dakrone | (count (map println [1 2 3])) |
| 17:36 | dakrone | ,(count (map println [1 2 3])) |
| 17:36 | clojurebot | 3 |
| 17:36 | clojurebot | 1 2 3 |
| 17:36 | eslick | So it's O(1) assuming the sequence has been fully evaluated |
| 17:41 | eslick | PS - nstools has an answer to my earlier question about 'cloning' common namespace use patterns |
| 17:41 | replaca | stuarthalloway: nope, I think it's should be pretty straightforward for something so big |
| 17:43 | eslick | Any recommendations on doing production development on 1.1 or starting with the upcoming 1.2 now? |
| 17:43 | eslick | Community seems in transition; unclear which way to jump for a near-term project |
| 17:51 | replaca | eslick: unless you need some 1.2 features, I'd stick with 1.1. 1.2 shouldn't be too hard a conversion, but you might want to let the forward guard find library problems and such. Plus 1.2 is still changing every day right now (though that should end soon). |
| 17:52 | eslick | Good advice. That's where my head was, but I occasionally run into things depending on 1.2 and will avoid them for now. |
| 17:52 | eslick | thanks! |
| 17:52 | MadWombat | Hello |
| 17:52 | eslick | Last silly question of the day... |
| 17:52 | replaca | eslick: np. Good luck! |
| 17:52 | eslick | What is the elegant way of (apply struct-map my-struct <map>) |
| 17:53 | eslick | with a map of the keys and vals that I'd prefer were in an actual sequence |
| 17:53 | eslick | This works for (apply struct-map my-struct [:a 1 :b2]) |
| 17:53 | eslick | But apparently not for (flatten (seq kvmap)) |
| 17:54 | eslick | MadWombat: hi! |
| 18:02 | MadWombat | anyone configured auto-complete-mode to work intelligently with clojure? |
| 18:03 | bmason | not sure if this is what you're talking about, but auto complete seems to work fine in my emacs REPL, just not in the code files |
| 18:04 | MadWombat | bmason: yes, swank provides autocomplete to slime sessions, but I want autocomplete to work in the code |
| 18:04 | MadWombat | bmason: like with the fancy IDEs |
| 18:04 | bmason | MadWombat: yeah understood... I don't know if the underlying mechanism is compatible |
| 18:05 | bmason | MadWombat: I'm still new to emacs |
| 18:05 | MadWombat | Yeah, me too |
| 18:06 | _ato | ? you can use swank's auto-complete while editing source code |
| 18:07 | _ato | just use C-c <tab> |
| 18:07 | MadWombat | _ato: heh, gotta check |
| 18:08 | _ato | make sure you eval/compile the relevant parts of the file first so it knows what to complete on (C-c C-k should do the whole file) |
| 18:08 | MadWombat | _ato: cool, now I need to figure out how to plug this into auto-complete-mode |
| 18:08 | MadWombat | _ato: yes, of course |
| 18:09 | Borkdude | C-c <tab>: good to know! |
| 18:11 | dfa2 | MadWombat: in the case you care I've a macro that indents or complete only with TAB |
| 18:11 | Borkdude | dfa2, I care |
| 18:11 | _ato | Borkdude: (re: bookmark syncing on Conkeror) I don't use bookmarks, but I think it uses the same storage mechanism as firefox so some of the firefox bookmark syncing extensions might work with some tinkering |
| 18:12 | Drakeson | (deftype foo [a]) (foo. 10) -> ok (new (resolve 'foo) 10) -> broken |
| 18:12 | Drakeson | am I missing something? |
| 18:13 | Borkdude | _ato, ok tnx |
| 18:13 | dfa2 | Borkdude: http://gist.github.com/388648 |
| 18:15 | Borkdude | dfa2: gonna try that now |
| 18:15 | technomancy | but yeah... I wish Chromium would support extensions like that. =( |
| 18:17 | Borkdude | dfa2: am I supposed to reload slime to activate it or smth? |
| 18:17 | dfa2 | Borkdude: no, just reload your .emacs with M-x load-file |
| 18:17 | Borkdude | dfa2: evaluating in *scratch* suffices as well? |
| 18:18 | dfa2 | yep :) |
| 18:18 | Borkdude | dfa2, ah I had to reopen the clj file, now it works |
| 18:18 | Borkdude | great! :) |
| 18:19 | dfa2 | ^_^ |
| 18:19 | Borkdude | dfa2: what's with the minibuffer in that code then? |
| 18:23 | dfa2 | Borkdude: vestigial code :) |
| 18:26 | Borkdude | dfa2: right, I get it. This is going into my init.el now ;-) |
| 18:28 | MadWombat | seems like (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook (setq ac-sources '(candidates . (slime-complete-symbol)))) works |
| 18:46 | Borkdude | Hmm, how do I get a pvt chat window in erc with someone? |
| 18:49 | Borkdude | /msg dfa2 ;; Thanks to dfa2 in #clojure |
| 18:49 | Borkdude | |
| 18:54 | technomancy | Borkdude: put the point on their nick and hit RET, then Msg |
| 18:57 | Borkdude | technomancy: tnx, maybe you only get a buffer for that person when a person talks to you, so it won't mangle up with your existing buffer? |
| 18:58 | technomancy | yup. not terribly fond of that choice, but that's how it works by default. |
| 19:07 | rsh | if you send an agent several functions to run..do they run in the order in which they were sent? |
| 19:08 | _ato | rsh: yes |
| 19:09 | _ato | (of course if they're sent from seperate threads the order might be non-deterministic, but functions sent sequentially from one thread will be executed in the order they were sent) |
| 19:14 | Borkdude | technomancy: I was after /query |
| 19:23 | MadWombat | I have a bunch of web site scrapers that I need to run in parralell and save the data in a database, at this point this is what I came up with http://pastie.org/944419 but it doesn't seem to parallelize and seems a bit awkward, what would be a better way? |
| 19:25 | _ato | futures might be more appropriate if you want to run them all in parallel |
| 19:25 | _ato | pmap will only run up to the number of cores your machine has in parallel |
| 19:25 | _ato | since it'll be blocking on IO you probably want more than that |
| 19:26 | _ato | ,(doc future) |
| 19:26 | clojurebot | "([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block." |
| 19:27 | MadWombat | how do you wait for futures to actually execute? |
| 19:27 | MadWombat | or will deref block until the particular future is ready? |
| 19:29 | MadWombat | ah! got it |
| 19:40 | Borkdude | When you have two futures in a let statement, can you see which finishes first? |
| 19:53 | _ato | I suppose you can loop checking (.isDone some-future), or have them do something side-effecty (like print "I'm done!") when they finish |
| 19:55 | Borkdude | http://gist.github.com/388755 |
| 19:55 | Borkdude | _ato: I tried printing but that didn't work |
| 19:56 | _ato | oh, if you're doing it in slime, printing from another thread usually goes to the *inferior-lisp* buffer, rather than the repl or minibuffer |
| 19:56 | Borkdude | ah, that explains it |
| 20:09 | zakwilson_ | Does (vals a-map) make something like a full copy? |
| 20:11 | MadWombat | _ato: this is what I came up with, it seems to work, but somehow time macro doesn;t print anything http://pastie.org/944467 |
| 20:14 | MadWombat | zakwilson_: I am not sure, but I don't think so. If I understand the concepts correctly the values in clojure are immutable, so there is no point in making a copy, clojure can just point you at the same values |
| 20:14 | arohner | zakwilson_: no |
| 20:15 | arohner | zakwilson_: vals creates a lazy seq that walks through your map |
| 20:16 | zakwilson_ | Does it copy data at all, or just reference it? |
| 20:16 | arohner | no copies at all. Since clojure datastructures are immutable, the map you have in hand will *never* change |
| 20:16 | arohner | so it's never copied |
| 20:17 | rsh | i want to change some of the font colors (particularly, for string) in clojure-mode for emacs, but don't see anywhere in clojure-mode.el that defines colors. Can someone point me in the right direction? |
| 20:17 | zakwilson_ | I know it never changes. I just wasn't sure if the resulting seq would be structured so as to re-use the values. |
| 20:18 | _ato | MadWombat: why not just do (doseq [t threads] (deref t)) instead of the count loop? (or are you intending to print a status of the number that have finished so far?) |
| 20:18 | _ato | where are you putting the time macro? inside each future? |
| 20:20 | MadWombat | _ato: (future (store-site (time ((val scraper))))) |
| 20:21 | MadWombat | _ato: I presume that deref will return nil immediately if the future is not done yet, or does it block? |
| 20:21 | _ato | ah missed that, deref blocks |
| 20:21 | MadWombat | Ah! |
| 20:22 | _ato | hmm yeah, when I run 'time in a future the output goes to *inferior-lisp* |
| 20:23 | MadWombat | heh |
| 20:23 | MadWombat | that is fine, this is for debugging only |
| 20:24 | _ato | looks like using (future-call (bound-fn [] (time ...))) will print it to the repl though |
| 20:32 | MadWombat | _ato: the latest version looks like this http://pastie.org/944490 and for some reason it runs sequentially (at least according to the log messages I get) |
| 20:35 | _ato | MadWombat: put a doall around your (for ...) |
| 20:35 | _ato | the 'for is lazy, so it's actually creating the futures until you deref |
| 20:35 | _ato | doall will force it |
| 20:36 | MadWombat | _ato: Ah! Lazy seqs! |
| 20:36 | technomancy | clojurebot: science is http://sunpig.com/martin/images/2008/10/iwilldosciencetoit.jpg |
| 20:36 | clojurebot | Alles klar |
| 20:37 | pjstadig | clojurebot: meap |
| 20:37 | clojurebot | Manning missed the opportunity to call it Manning Early Access Trial |
| 20:47 | defn | Any ideas for pretty printing anonymous functions so they come out like #() instead of (fn* [p1__6334] (not= \: (first p1__6334) |
| 20:48 | rsh | how do I tell leiningen to put postgresql driver jar on the classpath? |
| 20:48 | chouser | defn: whew, sounds tricky |
| 20:48 | defn | chouser: :) |
| 20:48 | technomancy | defn: you'd need to either write a decompiler or store the original pre-compiled source in metadata |
| 20:48 | technomancy | the latter wouldn't be bad if it were easy to turn off in production |
| 20:48 | chouser | well, I dunno if it's *that* tricky |
| 20:49 | defn | well the first option certainly wont be happening |
| 20:49 | technomancy | though it'd be a bit tricky to support with comp/partial/etc |
| 20:49 | chouser | he seems to have the source as read |
| 20:49 | defn | yeah im doing (pprint (read-string "(foo #(bar %) baz)")) right now |
| 20:50 | defn | so the metadata thing is possible |
| 20:50 | technomancy | defn: I bet it's doable, but you'd have to deep-dive into the compiler. sounds like lots of fun if you've got some time to sink. =) |
| 20:50 | _ato | rsh: add [postgresql "8.4-701.jdbc4"] to your :dependencies in project.clj? (not sure if that's the version you want, search jarvana.com) |
| 20:51 | defn | technomancy: frankly i just have no clue where to even start, got some time to mentor me? ;) |
| 20:51 | defn | aka to sink? :) |
| 20:52 | technomancy | defn: I will bring it up for discussion at this week's seajure meeting |
| 20:52 | technomancy | it'd be a fun thing to try to track down |
| 20:52 | defn | technomancy: oh man that'd be awesome |
| 20:52 | technomancy | will report findings, if any. =) |
| 20:53 | defn | fantastic! thanks! |
| 20:53 | chouser | does pprint not use a multimethod? |
| 20:54 | defn | !source pprint |
| 20:54 | chouser | ah, perhaps I found it. |
| 20:54 | technomancy | defn: actually it's probably more of a reader thing than a compiler thing, which is good because at least two people in here know the reader pretty well. |
| 20:54 | defn | hiredman and chouser? |
| 20:54 | technomancy | was thinking of Chousuke |
| 20:54 | defn | ah, yes |
| 20:54 | technomancy | but he probably does too |
| 20:55 | defn | of course he does :) |
| 20:55 | defn | </jealousy> |
| 20:55 | replaca | chouser: yes, pprint uses a multimethod |
| 20:55 | chouser | clojure.contrib.pprint/*print-pprint-dispatch* |
| 20:55 | replaca | chouser: in fact you can put any function you want in that var |
| 20:56 | replaca | but both code-dispatch and and simple-dispatch are multimethods |
| 20:56 | chouser | you'd just want to implement a slightly different fn for PersistentList |
| 20:57 | replaca | what's the question? I just dropped in |
| 20:57 | replaca | oh, defn |
| 20:57 | replaca | just use the code-dispatch |
| 20:57 | defn | pprinting #() as #() instead of (fn* [p_8142] ...) |
| 20:57 | defn | replaca: that's all, really? |
| 20:57 | replaca | it does that for you: |
| 20:57 | chouser | ha! |
| 20:58 | defn | bahaha |
| 20:58 | replaca | (with-pprint-dispatch *code-dispatch* (pprint ...)) |
| 20:58 | replaca | it'll make your code all purdy |
| 20:58 | defn | purdy codez |
| 20:58 | replaca | note the version that's going into core loses the ears |
| 20:58 | replaca | since it's not really meant to be rebindable |
| 20:59 | defn | for 1.2 you mean? |
| 20:59 | defn | no more earmuffs? |
| 21:00 | chouser | I don't understand how to use code-dispatch |
| 21:00 | replaca | yeah, it does all sorts of great things... nice indentation of let, if, etc.; quote turned into ' etc |
| 21:00 | defn | id like to know more if anyone wants to explain |
| 21:00 | replaca | chouser: just like my example... |
| 21:01 | chouser | ah, I see it now. thanks. |
| 21:01 | chouser | very nice |
| 21:01 | replaca | defn: earmuffs are those *s on the ends of *code-dispatch*. convention says you use them on vars that are meant to be rebound |
| 21:01 | livingston | the dispatch function on a mutimethod get's passed all of the function calls arguments right? but i just wanted to dispatch on the first I would give my dispatch function the signature [first & _] ? |
| 21:01 | defn | replaca: ah-ha |
| 21:02 | replaca | pprint has a ton of vars like that, but simple-dispatch and code-dispatch really aren't that way |
| 21:03 | replaca | if you want to customize, just create a new defmulti and default (if appropriate) back to the dispatch of your choice |
| 21:03 | replaca | if you look in the contrib examples there are examples of using custom dispatch to create xml or json |
| 21:04 | replaca | livingston: in this case it gets passed the object your pprinting |
| 21:05 | replaca | it's called at each level - the idea is that you call pprint function from inside |
| 21:05 | defn | replaca: which contrib examples |
| 21:05 | livingston | replaca: I'm only kinda following your dispatch question, .. I happen to have run into it myself too for a different question ;) |
| 21:05 | replaca | look in the contrib source in something like src/main/examples/pprint |
| 21:06 | defn | ah, great -- thanks |
| 21:06 | replaca | in any case, gotta run, bbl |
| 21:11 | livingston | the dispatch function in a defmulti gets called with every argument passed to the main function, right? |
| 21:11 | defn | beautiful. |
| 21:11 | defn | so happy i didnt need to decompile |
| 21:16 | bmason | so... Clojure being my first FP language, I'm really unfamiliar with the design approaches that are commonly taken |
| 21:16 | bmason | is there some equivalent to design patterns for FP? |
| 21:20 | livingston | bmason: there's a whole 'nother set of idioms you will want to get your head around, like map and reduce ... new core functions to the language that you probably won't be used to thinking with |
| 21:22 | livingston | starting with an intro book is probably the way to go (either for Common Lisp, Scheme or Clojure) and thinking about the exercises will help |
| 21:22 | bmason | I read through Stuart Halloway's book |
| 21:23 | bmason | I guess I'm looking for a more guided approach to designing and architecting a FP solution |
| 21:24 | bmason | the direction I'm planning now is to analyze source of some existing projects out there |
| 21:24 | bmason | but that's not quite the same as having an explanation of why a certain design was chosen |
| 21:25 | livingston | bmason: that would be worthwhile, although I would encourage you to find a project and not a library (if you can). |
| 21:25 | MadWombat | well, personaly I started with the SICP http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html |
| 21:25 | sexpbot | "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" |
| 21:26 | rsh | what is the best way to go about writing database code in clojure? clojure.contrib.sql or clojureql? neither? |
| 21:26 | rsh | sql database that is |
| 21:26 | MadWombat | it is in scheme, but it a good start into FP |
| 21:26 | livingston | the problem with SICP and On Lisp is they don't go about building large projects, but if you do what they guide you to do and the small level and build up, you'll do ok-ish |
| 21:27 | bmason | hmm |
| 21:27 | bmason | k |
| 21:27 | MadWombat | Spels in Clojure is supposed to be fairly decent |
| 21:27 | MadWombat | http://www.lisperati.com/clojure-spels/casting.html |
| 21:27 | bmason | I am planning to read On Lisp as well |
| 21:27 | sexpbot | "Casting SPELs with Clojure - Home -" |
| 21:28 | MadWombat | haven't read it yet |
| 21:28 | bmason | very nice |
| 21:28 | bmason | I'll definitely dig into that |
| 21:28 | remleduff | rhickey: Sorry about the process mixup, submitting a patch to assembla before mailed my CA. I'll drop it in the mail tomorrow morning. Can I just say "I release this into the Public Domain" and make everything ok for now? |
| 21:29 | livingston | _ato: a fair enough goal |
| 21:30 | bmason | lol, sounds like sage wisdom |
| 21:30 | livingston | bmason: to the original question, I think if you just build up, step into working on something, start small, write one function to a function and refactor when possible, you'll get some decent code out of it. |
| 21:30 | rhudson | "Every big system that works well started out as a small system that worked well" |
| 21:32 | livingston | the advantage of starting in clojure is it will force a little more of the functional style on you, than you would get in a more mutable language like common lisp, which relies on discipline in stead of design to get good functional code |
| 21:32 | bmason | ah |
| 21:32 | bmason | I wasn't aware that CL was different in regards to mutability |
| 21:33 | bmason | but yeah, I think it's appropriate for a language which requires you to *think* differently have a different syntax |
| 21:33 | _ato | I suppose the more general stuff applies when it comes to architecture. Build things in layers (so higher layers depend on lower layers) and avoid circular dependencies like the plague. |
| 21:34 | bmason | ok |
| 21:34 | bmason | but take something like Stuart Halloway's snake game |
| 21:34 | Associat0r | "CLI on the Web" http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/May-03.html |
| 21:34 | sexpbot | "CLI on the Web - Miguel de Icaza" |
| 21:34 | bmason | in that, he has a function that returns a map containing all the doohickeys you need to run the game and find out what its state is |
| 21:35 | bmason | which I thought was an interesting idea, and in a way it strikes me as a design pattern |
| 21:35 | bmason | a common way of doing things which applies to certain scenarios |
| 21:36 | livingston | (actually it *is* the state - as I remember) |
| 21:36 | bmason | true :) |
| 21:37 | bmason | I figure there's probably volumes out there that describe that sort of thing in terms of where you would use it and why |
| 21:38 | livingston | the point to the example is that you're not side-effecting things (like you would be encouraged to do in a procedural language, for example) - you have a function you put in inputs you get out outputs - nothing else should change (if it's a pure function) |
| 21:40 | livingston | the input snake isn't modified, you just produce a new snake. and if you know the old snake can't change (like you are guaranteed in clojure) you are free to share any of it's structure in the new snake, making creating a "whole new one" really cheap |
| 21:41 | bmason | right, and I get that |
| 21:42 | bmason | I think he presented a good case for immutability |
| 21:42 | bmason | my question pertains more to resources for learning though |
| 21:42 | livingston | that's not really a "pattern" per say, it's just "what you do" in functional languages |
| 21:42 | bmason | :) |
| 21:44 | livingston | bmason: oh, well, On Lisp isn't bad then, but it'll have you thinking in CL not Clojure |
| 21:44 | bmason | know of any web projects that are examples of good coding? |
| 21:47 | livingston | bmason: not off the top of my head, in clojure at least (i liked the ones I built but those are published/available) I'm sure there are plenty of projects with open tasks looking for some help, you could try to contribute to though |
| 21:48 | livingston | are published -> are not published/ |
| 21:48 | bmason | ok... thanks for the ideas :) |
| 21:48 | bmason | I may publish some of my stuff on github too and try to get some feedback |
| 21:51 | remleduff | bmason: I'm liking the cow blog: http://github.com/briancarper/cow-blog/tree/master/blog/ |
| 21:52 | remleduff | I'm coming to the sad realization that my web project is not currently an example of good coding :\ |
| 21:52 | bmason | lol |
| 21:53 | bmason | yeah, I'm sorta tackling a RESTful API at the moment |
| 21:53 | bmason | so learning about doc types and HTTP headers at the same time as I'm picking up steam with Clojure |
| 21:53 | remleduff | I've been doing the same thing, never written a web app in my life |
| 21:54 | remleduff | So decided to learn: clojure, emacs, compojure, enlive and fleetdb all at the same time |
| 21:54 | bmason | well heck, this is the first time it's seemed worth doing :-P |
| 21:54 | livingston | when I say (ns ... (use a.b.c.d-e-f)) it's saying can't find a/b/c/d_e_f.clj on the class path? I can't have hypens? or is there something else I missed? |
| 21:54 | remleduff | replace - with _ in your filenams |
| 21:54 | bmason | web technology is really starting to mature |
| 21:55 | livingston | remleduff: really? that sucks - are hypens somehow invalid in java/jvm filenames? |
| 21:55 | bmason | livingston: is your file on the classpath? |
| 21:55 | livingston | bmason: yes |
| 21:56 | remleduff | Yeah, you can't have "-" in packages. So both "-" and "_" are mangled to "_" by clojure to allow it in namespaces |
| 21:58 | livingston | ugh - boo, but ok.. is *cringe* CamelCase preferred for this kind of thing? |
| 21:58 | solussd | and it's only a couple steps away from a monad. :) |
| 21:58 | remleduff | I think lots of people just name their file "some_package" and then (require 'some-package) |
| 21:59 | remleduff | I tend to avoid it and just add an extra directory to my package path |
| 21:59 | remleduff | So it would be "some/package.clj" and (require 'some.package) |
| 21:59 | livingston | remleduff: it's already 6 deep .. the underscore will do |
| 21:59 | Associat0r | snake_case |
| 22:03 | cemerick | livingston: top-level namespaces are strongly discouraged. |
| 22:05 | livingston | cemerick: I don't have any top level ns'es? like I said, I'm 6 deep already, you lose 3 just putting your institution on the front of the dang thing |
| 22:05 | remleduff | At least you aren't in ".co.uk" ;) |
| 22:06 | cemerick | livingston: yeah, that was just an FYI :-) |
| 22:06 | cemerick | there's no requirement to doing org.name.foo.bar.bang -- could easily be projectname.module.ns-name, etc. |
| 22:07 | livingston | so let's say I have a lot of functions I want to dispatch on the same first arg, this would be an ok/correct dispatch function to give them all? (defn server-type-dispatch [server & _] (type server)) ? |
| 22:08 | livingston | cemerick: yeah, I could probably get away with that too, but I'm in an academic lab that's integrating with a lot of java, so edu.... it is |
| 22:09 | cemerick | livingston: sure, or you can do #(type (first %&)) if you want to be concise about it. :-) |
| 22:10 | livingston | I'll favor the readable one, for clarity, unless there is an efficiency argument to be made? this will get called *a lot* |
| 22:11 | cemerick | it's *slightly* more efficient (saving a var dereference), but the point is that the anon fn is semantically general (type of first argument), rather than declaring that it's a server type dispatch fn. |
| 22:11 | cemerick | *shrug* |
| 22:15 | livingston | ok, well I'll go with the obvious one until the profiler convinces me to do otherwise then |
| 22:16 | remleduff | cemerick: What is the apersand there? |
| 22:16 | cemerick | remleduff: rest arguments |
| 22:17 | cemerick | ,(#(do %&) 1 2 3 4) |
| 22:17 | clojurebot | (1 2 3 4) |
| 22:17 | remleduff | interesting, learn something new every day :) |
| 22:17 | cemerick | ,(#(do [%1 %2 %&]) 1 2 3 4) |
| 22:17 | clojurebot | [1 2 (3 4)] |
| 22:17 | livingston | I have to deal with the fact that I'm applying that dispatch function to many different defmulti's with different arity -and the dispatch function gets called with all the arguments of the main function so... |
| 22:18 | cemerick | fn literals have almost all of the argument options that normal fns do. |
| 22:18 | livingston | cemerick: I would expect them to have them all? which ones are they missing? |
| 22:19 | cemerick | livingston: this is well into style and idiom here, but IMO, the best thing to do would be to def the fn literal in one place, but not specify that it's applicable only to servers, etc. |
| 22:19 | cemerick | livingston: It doesn't have rest kw args, which are a recent addition. |
| 22:19 | remleduff | If I don't have a defstruct to dispatch by type on, is it ok to make a defmulti hierarchy that just dispatches assuming the first arg is a keyword I provide? |
| 22:19 | livingston | cemerick: keywords like in common lisp? (that would be nice) |
| 22:20 | cemerick | remleduff: yes, though if you're using 1.2, it sounds like you'd be happier with records and protocols. |
| 22:20 | cemerick | livingston: essentially, yes. |
| 22:21 | livingston | cemerick: well, the first arg is actually a map SO really it's calling (defn server-type-dispatch [server & _] (:server (type server))) |
| 22:21 | cemerick | ,((fn [& {:keys [a b]}] [a b]) :a 5 :b 6) |
| 22:21 | clojurebot | [nil nil] |
| 22:21 | livingston | although I guess I could do that with destructuring on the first arg too |
| 22:21 | cemerick | bleh |
| 22:21 | cemerick | ,*clojure-version* |
| 22:21 | clojurebot | {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"} |
| 22:21 | livingston | yeah clojurebot is 1.1 |
| 22:21 | cemerick | right, clojurebot doesn't have the newest stuff :-P |
| 22:22 | livingston | that's really nice though, something I was missing from CL - all these {} were really crudding things up |
| 22:23 | cemerick | A little sugar is good. :-) |
| 22:24 | remleduff | cemerick: What I was trying to ask was, is http://gist.github.com/388872 nonsense? |
| 22:24 | livingston | it's a little ugly on the definition syntax, but getting it right in the calling syntax is more important |
| 22:25 | anonymouse89 | hi all, quick question: what does "for[[a b] c]" mean? |
| 22:25 | anonymouse89 | are a and b both taking values of c? |
| 22:26 | cemerick | remleduff: Seems fine to me. |
| 22:26 | remleduff | anonymouse89: It's using destructuring to take each element from the collection named c and split it into a and b which are available as vars inside the body of the for comprehension |
| 22:26 | cemerick | ,(for [[a b] [[1 2] [3 4]] (+ a b)) |
| 22:26 | clojurebot | Unmatched delimiter: ) |
| 22:26 | livingston | remleduff: does that even run? |
| 22:27 | cemerick | ,(for [[a b] [[1 2] [3 4]]] (+ a b)) |
| 22:27 | clojurebot | (3 7) |
| 22:27 | remleduff | livingston: I'm not sure, was typing it directly into gist |
| 22:27 | livingston | lol |
| 22:28 | livingston | first I don't think you give the argument signature to defmulti, do you? second it'll end up calling (#(identity %) key val) to dispatch which will barf because identity wants a single argument |
| 22:29 | livingston | but... on it's face, I don't see much wrong with the basic idea that I think you are going for |
| 22:29 | anonymouse89 | remleduff: thanks |
| 22:31 | livingston | remleduff: the thing is if it's a fixed set of stuff and you don't want/need it to be extendable by external code, then a code would probably be preferred (and possibly be more transparent) |
| 22:32 | livingston | code -> cond |
| 22:32 | remleduff | livingston: You're right, it didn't work. what I have now does, but seems a little iffy |
| 22:33 | remleduff | I guess a cond would work well too |
| 22:34 | livingston | it'd be faster and more transparent as to what it is doing, but won't be externally extendable .. it depends on what you need.... |
| 22:34 | remleduff | My webapp is growing (str "/" user) or (str "/media/" item) all over the place and I've been trying to decide what the best replacement would be |
| 22:35 | livingston | you could also just have a map that associates keys with functions to apply to the value (that's basically what the defmulti is buying you. |
| 22:36 | livingston | i'm ok with what you have, more or less, something about it seems ugly but I have no suggestion on how to better it if you need it to be defined distributed all over the place instead of a cond |
| 22:37 | rhudson | A downside of cond is that it's linear search. |
| 22:38 | rhudson | (not an issue for a few keys) |
| 22:40 | livingston | I don't know what the overhead is in clojure but with the Franz Allegro Common Lisp compiler you would have to exceed about 60 keys before a PList was slower than a hash-table |
| 22:40 | livingston | the hash implementations are significantly different though - has someone run that experiment here? we should |
| 22:41 | livingston | regardless it's not really worth worrying about until the profiler get's upset at you |
| 22:42 | jhawk28 | does anyone have any experience with writing an interpreter with Clojure? or should I look into using Antlr? |
| 22:43 | cemerick | livingston: array-maps cut over to hash-maps @ 16. |
| 22:43 | hiredman | are you kidding? writing an interpreter in a lisp vs java stuff? |
| 22:43 | hiredman | multimethods are great for interpreters |
| 22:43 | slyphon | hiredman: yeah, but java's got... |
| 22:43 | slyphon | ...stuff |
| 22:44 | hiredman | pfft |
| 22:44 | jhawk28 | it needs to be able to execute (like the string reader) from Java code, but it is an s expression syntax |
| 22:44 | slyphon | :) |
| 22:44 | hiredman | yeah, multimethods all the way |
| 22:44 | cemerick | hiredman: BNF is really nice when it fits |
| 22:45 | livingston | right, but the jumps in hashes can do funny things to CPU lookahead compared to some more straightforward things - so you gotta measure it at the task at hand (presumably RIch did and found the break at 16) |
| 22:45 | hiredman | you can't see me rolling my eyes |
| 22:45 | jhawk28 | the grammar is predefined |
| 22:45 | jhawk28 | its LL too |
| 22:46 | cemerick | something implemented in a common grammar is so very, very often superior to something that's hand-rolled. |
| 22:46 | livingston | I just call read |
| 22:46 | cemerick | There's good reasons to hand-roll things, but it shouldn't be the default choice. |
| 22:47 | slyphon | that's one thing that impressed me w/ scala, is the built-in BNF parsing stuff |
| 22:47 | slyphon | there's something neat about being able to do stuff like that |
| 22:47 | cemerick | slyphon: you shouldn't be. Stuff like that shouldn't be in a general-purpose language. |
| 22:47 | cemerick | That's what libraries are for, quite literally. |
| 22:48 | slyphon | i mean, i think it was factored out into a standard library, like the embedded-xml functionality |
| 22:48 | slyphon | it's been a while since i've looked at it, though |
| 22:49 | cemerick | I ended up having to use the embedded XML stuff quite a bit. Nightmare, pure nightmare. |
| 22:49 | slyphon | yeah? |
| 22:49 | cemerick | <xml><blah><foo>.........</foo></blah></xml>.callSomeXMLDOMMethod() |
| 22:49 | cemerick | :-0 |
| 22:50 | slyphon | hrm |
| 22:50 | slyphon | yeah, i could see how that could get hairy |
| 22:50 | slyphon | but still, it looks damn cool! |
| 22:50 | cemerick | it gets crazier, as you can interpolate values into the XML |
| 22:50 | cemerick | yeah, it's very alluring, if you haven't gotten tangled in stuff like it before. |
| 22:50 | slyphon | :) |
| 22:51 | livingston | anything with a closing tag (that's required) is already inferior to an s-expression |
| 22:52 | slyphon | ) |
| 22:52 | livingston | cemerick: I don't know that library, but jQuery is pretty damn cool for js stuff, and sounds like it has similar applications |
| 22:53 | slyphon | i heard a statistic the other day, that jQuery has 80% penetration |
| 22:53 | cemerick | livingston: was talking abou tthe inline XML support in scala? |
| 22:53 | cemerick | I was* |
| 22:54 | livingston | I haven't looked at scala too much. it's primary selling point being "it's not java" wasn't quite good enough for me. |
| 22:54 | jhawk28 | thanks for the tips |
| 22:54 | slyphon | well, "It's functional not java" |
| 22:54 | jhawk28 | Ill look into the multimethods |
| 22:54 | slyphon | "..and it gives the guys at Twitter a stiffie" |
| 22:54 | remleduff | What does penetration mean for something downloadable by 100% of people with javascript? |
| 22:55 | slyphon | remleduff: it means 80% of the sites these guys were surveying were using it in one form or another |
| 22:55 | cemerick | that's probably a lowball estimate |
| 22:57 | slyphon | any language you can't use paredit to hack on is at a distinct disadvantage |
| 22:57 | livingston | .. headed out, dinner etc. -- thanks everyone |
| 22:59 | remleduff | I'm coming to emacs from a vim addiction, and still not really liking emacs as an editor, but paredit is amazing |
| 22:59 | mmarczyk | remleduff: I know what you mean, that's what got me hooked :-) |
| 22:59 | slyphon | yeah, i use vim for pretty much anything that's not s-exp based |
| 22:59 | mmarczyk | ...and now I'm using ERC to chat with you guys :-P |
| 22:59 | slyphon | hahaha |
| 23:00 | slyphon | it's a slippery slope;2~ |
| 23:00 | mmarczyk | :-) |
| 23:00 | slyphon | ! |
| 23:00 | mmarczyk | well I always was curious about the dark side |
| 23:00 | slyphon | :D |
| 23:00 | mmarczyk | so it wasn't a painful switch, because I already knew my way around :-) |
| 23:01 | mmarczyk | I use both Vim and Emacs now, makes for fun little lapses of concentration |
| 23:01 | slyphon | oy |
| 23:01 | slyphon | and tangled fingers |
| 23:01 | mmarczyk | where I'm quitting Vim with C-x C-c :-P |
| 23:01 | slyphon | C-g! |
| 23:01 | slyphon | or manically hitting ESC in emacs |
| 23:01 | mmarczyk | C-g is exactly what I press when I realise it doesn't make sense to press C-x C-c in Vim :-) |
| 23:02 | mmarczyk | and before I actually regain my senses ;-) |
| 23:03 | remleduff | I still can't believe how many commands I use *frequently* take 2 or even three control characters |
| 23:03 | slyphon | yeah |
| 23:03 | slyphon | vim-mode in emacs saves me a lot of heartache |
| 23:04 | slyphon | remleduff: see, you're not supposed to use those keystrokes, you're supposed to reprogram the editor over the course of 10-15 years until it's an extension of your now corrupted mind |
| 23:04 | mmarczyk | :-D |
| 23:04 | remleduff | hehe |
| 23:04 | slyphon | :) |
| 23:04 | mmarczyk | that's the Emacs mindset summarised for you right there |
| 23:05 | slyphon | i had to stop with emacs a few years back, because i was having *way* more fun hacking on my editor than actually "doing work" |
| 23:06 | remleduff | I'm close to quitting emacs again now, every since I've changed computers I get a 3 second pause every time I try to open a file |
| 23:06 | slyphon | really? |
| 23:06 | slyphon | weird |
| 23:07 | remleduff | enough editor digression from me though :) |
| 23:08 | slyphon | :) |
| 23:10 | mmarczyk | :-) |
| 23:20 | ndimiduk | can multimethods be implementations of an AOP-exposed object's methods? |
| 23:21 | ndimiduk | for instance, i'd like to export MyClass.foo(Integer) and MyClass.foo(String). Can i use a multimethod to implement these methods? |
| 23:21 | ndimiduk | (defmulti -foo class) kind of thing. |
| 23:24 | chouser | ndimiduk: you mean to implement a gen-class method? Yeah, I think that should work. |
| 23:24 | ndimiduk | chouser: that's precisely what i mean |
| 23:40 | TakeV | So, the two ways to implement a Java interface in Clojure is either with :gen-class or a proxy, right? |
| 23:41 | remleduff | Until 1.2 comes out at least |
| 23:43 | TakeV | Oh? I tend to use the 1.2 branch mostly, so how do you do it in there? |
| 23:43 | TakeV | Or has it not been implemented yet? |
| 23:43 | cemerick | TakeV: there's reify, deftype, and defrecord now |
| 23:43 | _ato | http://clojure.org/datatypes http://clojure.org/protocols |
| 23:44 | cemerick | Far fewer use cases these days for gen-class and proxy. |
| 23:47 | ndimiduk | chouser: yep, that works perfectly! thanks |
| 23:48 | ndimiduk | TakeV: i've been using quite a bit of gen-{class,interface} lately |
| 23:48 | ndimiduk | TakeV: because i'm implementing classes to be consumed by an external java framework |
| 23:49 | ndimiduk | TakeV: it's pretty nice to keep most of the code in clojure. only troubles arise when you have generic-typed objects in the interfaces |
