#clojure – 2010-04-30

2010-04-30

00:40	Tordek	hi
00:40	Tordek	I'm trying to use fact, but I think I'm doing it wrong
00:41	Tordek	I got the source and built the jar, but then "java -jar fact.jar" says it can't find the library
00:48	Blackfoot	i haven't used fact, but what is the specific error?
00:49	Tordek	sorry, er
00:50	Tordek	$ java -jar fact.jar
00:50	Tordek	Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from
00:50	Tordek	fact.jar
00:50	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
00:53	Blackfoot	Tordek: so it looks like the -main function is in fact.main in main.clj. you may need to do something more along the lines of java -cp fact.jar fact.main
00:54	Tordek	$ java -cp fact.jar fact.main
00:54	Tordek	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: fact/main
00:54	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
00:54	Tordek	same with just "main"
00:54	Tordek	oh, wait, it goes deeper than that
00:55	Tordek	there are no .class files in the jar
00:55	Tordek	hmm, the ant task just skips the compile phase
00:57	Blackfoot	yea, that's what i'm seeing. i think it needs to know where clojure.jar is in order to build it
00:58	Tordek	odd... I'm almost certain it compiled once..
00:59	Tordek	ok, so, how do I inform it of the location of clojure?
00:59	Blackfoot	ant -Dclojure.jar=clojure-1.1.0.jar
00:59	Blackfoot	(assuming you have that file in the current dir)
01:01	Tordek	ok, at least it errors on compile now...
01:01	Tordek	[java] java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/objectweb/asm/Opcodes
01:02	Blackfoot	hrm i did not see that when mine build. what clojure version did you use?
01:03	Tordek	1.1.0
01:03	leifw	any clojure-hadoop users arrived?
01:05	Blackfoot	so here's what i did: git clone git:...fact.git, cd fact, cp ../clojure-1.1.0.jar . , ant -Dclojure.jar=clojure-1.1.0.jar
01:06	Blackfoot	that clojure.jar came from another project that was using lein
01:08	Tordek	odd... I deleted the folder and recloned it and now it compiled (with a little bitchin' about not finding clojure-conrib, but then I added it and it shut up)
01:09	Blackfoot	hrm, maybe a leftover class or something
01:09	Blackfoot	so then i can run it with java -cp fact.jar:clojure-1.1.0.jar fact.main
01:10	Blackfoot	but i think it is supposed to take a directory with tests in it
01:12	Tordek	ok, I managed to get it running
01:12	Tordek	now, I gotta learn how to write the tests, apparently >_>
01:50	LauJensen	Good morning all
01:51	hoeck	good morning Lau
01:53	LauJensen	Ubuntu 10.04 is released
02:03	Raynes	LauJensen: I preordered a disc a few days ago.
02:04	LauJensen	Cool - But why ?
02:04	LauJensen	@ Raynes
02:05	Raynes	Because I'm running on a dial-up connection.
02:05	LauJensen	ah.. then running isn't the word
02:05	Raynes	Crawling.
02:05	LauJensen	How much do you have to pay to get a disk sent your way ?
02:05	Raynes	Nada.
02:05	Raynes	It's free.
02:05	Raynes	Because I'm a poor young padawan.
02:06	Raynes	It just takes forever.
02:06	Raynes	Up to 10 weeks.
02:06	Raynes	I'm still running on Hardy.
02:06	Raynes	Crawling*
02:06	Raynes	;)
02:07	LauJensen	Ah ok - Its a shame we dont live a little closer, and you not in the US, because then I could have sent you a CD today :\|
02:07	Raynes	I'd rather wait a month or so until bugfixes are out anyway.
02:08	Raynes	I'm going to be doing a fresh install on a dedicated partition this time, so I need time to figure out how I'm going to back all my stuff up.
02:10	LauJensen	Oh
02:11	LauJensen	I always have something like sda1=root, sda2=home, sda3=root2 sda4=swap
02:11	LauJensen	So I can reinstall any linux on sda1 and boot up to the exact same desktop every time, and run experimental OS's on sda3, also with the same desktop
02:12	LauJensen	And the trick is, I wrapped apt-get install to always pipe the name of the app into a file in my home, so when I reinstall I just run a script on that file which installs all the programs that I manually installed on the old version
02:14	scottj	and you haven't had any problems with experimental gnome etc messing up your settings for the stable version?
02:15	LauJensen	scottj: One time a KDE desktop did add some garbage, which I flushed with the OS but nothing major
02:17	replaca	Raynes: I'm with you dude, still on Hardy
02:18	Raynes	replaca: Hardy is awesome, isn't it? It works.
02:18	Raynes	That's the most important thing: it works.
02:18	vu3rdd	LauJensen: you can use dpkg-scanpackages
02:18	replaca	I was excited to upgrade today, but life got a little crazy and I need to keep the machine going
02:18	mmarczyk	good morning :-)
02:19	LauJensen	Raynes: If thats your attitude you should be on Debian, enjoying all the benefits of Git 0.8 or so :)
02:19	mmarczyk	Ubuntu 10.04, well what do you know
02:19	vu3rdd	problem with ubuntu is that upgrades are never smooth. You have to do fresh install to get all the advantages of the new release.
02:19	replaca	yeah, but slowly I've begun to want to be on something newer. about a month ago I decided to upgrade, but I realized that lynx was right around the corner
02:19	LauJensen	Ubuntu 10.04 is miles ahead of Hardy
02:19	mmarczyk	more interestingly, a new version of Sun JDK
02:20	mmarczyk	vu3rdd: I might be especially lucky, but I haven't had any problems with upgrades thus far
02:20	LauJensen	mmarczyk: I've never had anything but problems with the dist-upgrades
02:20	LauJensen	(and I dont know of anybody who has except you)
02:20	mmarczyk	in fact, I don't recall having to reinstall Linux for any reason other than wanting to switch distros :-)
02:20	mmarczyk	alright then, guess I might be especially lucky
02:20	vu3rdd	mmarczyk: Oh. ok. I had a lot of issues in the past on a work laptop and finally I converted that machine (also) to debian.
02:21	replaca	my probs have all been cause of my nvidia card, but lynx is supposed to fix that
02:21	mmarczyk	though that's also with a machine at the uni :-)
02:21	mmarczyk	and a friend is doing the same with annoying, but fixable issues
02:21	vu3rdd	But yes, fresh installs are really nice.
02:21	Raynes	They are when you don't have a ton of stuff to backup and nowhere to put it.
02:22	scottj	you have bigger problems than upgrading your distro if you don't have a backup of valuable stuff :)
02:23	mmarczyk	scottj: spot on :-)
02:23	Raynes	I'm running on a Wubi installation and I have been for about a year and a half. I backup stuff by moving the root disk file to the Windows side.
02:23	mmarczyk	also, where's the foss spirit, if we don't break our systems with dist-upgrade and report the bugs then who's gonna do it? ;-)
02:24	Raynes	So my valuable stuff is indeed backed up, but that wont count when I install on a dedicated partition.
02:24	Raynes	Because that could screw up Windoze as well.
02:25	LauJensen	mmarczyk: Dont get me started on that spirit. You know this tradition where someone says "I tried to installed X and it broke my system", and instead of helping the support goes "Why are you trying to install X anyway, you should be using Y instead of being a moron..."
02:26	LauJensen	Then I really found a keeper recently, this guy had his battery in his Macbook Pro roasted by poor power management in Ubuntu and the capacity degraded 20 - 40% over a few weeks only. The supporter goes "Why are you trying to run Linux on overpriced hardware like Apple anyway?" :)
02:26	Raynes	Priceless.
02:29	mmarczyk	LauJensen: aye, that's rather off-putting
02:29	LauJensen	happens all the time if you follow irc/forum discussions :)
02:29	LauJensen	And you have seen me do the same, if something have complained about a problem with VimClojure :)
02:30	LauJensen	s/something/someone
02:30	mmarczyk	:-)
02:30	LauJensen	Raynes: You should plug that into Botjure, if someone says s/x/y it replaces the text and reprints
02:30	Raynes	$sed #clojure i s/plug/secks/
02:30	sexpbot	Raynes: You should secks that into Botjure, if someone says s/x/y it replaces the text and reprints
02:30	Raynes	It just isn't automagic.
02:31	Raynes	I didn't write that though, and the person who did is on the verge of a bit of a rewrite right now. Once he's finished, I'll incorporate your idea, because it's awesome.
02:31	LauJensen	ERC does it though, you guys just cant see
02:32	mmarczyk	LauJensen: still, I'd say sending in the occasional bug report is a nice thing to do, and if its re: dist-upgrade breakage, it's likely to be received in a more reasonable way
02:33	mmarczyk	ERC :-)
02:33	mmarczyk	incidentally, your blog post made me give ERC a try
02:33	Raynes	I'm not man enough for ERC.
02:33	LauJensen	I found a kernel regression in 10.04 and it actually popped up itself asking a series of questions, collecting information, checking if I wanted to report only to Ubuntus staff or also Kerneloop, and at the final dialog it borks "Cannot report problem: This is not an Ubuntu package"
02:33	mmarczyk	when I finally decided to come to #clojure
02:33	mmarczyk	thanks for that!
02:33	LauJensen	mmarczyk: Are you liking it? :)
02:34	LauJensen	Sweeeet :)
02:34	mmarczyk	I can't believe the sort of things I'm doing in Emacs these days
02:34	LauJensen	I set mine up so I open Emacs and start working, then when I miss Raynes too much, I hit f1, enter my password and off it goes
02:34	clojurebot	emacs is an out-moded belief system
02:34	mmarczyk	and I'm only getting started
02:34	Raynes	I'm not man enough for erc.
02:34	mmarczyk	I mean, started on using Emacs for stuff other than Lisp coding
02:35	LauJensen	mmarczyk: tell me about it. Couple of weeks ago I was sitting at a clients office developing a financial app in Emacs, feels good though
02:41	mmarczyk	if I find a way to stop ansi-term from flickering, I'll actually switch to doing all my terminal stuff inside Emacs
02:41	mmarczyk	I already use it a lot, along with eshell for stuff which doesn't require proper terminal emulation
02:42	mmarczyk	I'm doing it, yet I'm having a hard time believing it :-)
02:43	wooby	i've found it easier to run screen inside emacs than vice versa, with ansi-term
02:43	wooby	my buffer of no shame, filled with screen and vim :)
02:47	mmarczyk	yeah, I actually tried running Vim inside Emacs too :-D
02:48	mmarczyk	then I told myself I was being ridiculous and fired up a separate gvim :-)
02:48	mmarczyk	I guess one day I might not stop myself!
02:49	wooby	lol
02:56	LauJensen	mmarczyk: you can view files in Emacs as well, you dont need Vim for that
02:56	mmarczyk	LauJensen: you don't say :-)
02:57	mmarczyk	(got my morning tea, good... :-))
02:58	LauJensen	Im actually on tea this morning as well.... weird
02:58	mmarczyk	I need to figure out the VC magic in Emacs, then I can stop mixing in Vim for writing commit messages
02:59	mmarczyk	I actually find that Vim's rendering works better for me, though
03:00	mmarczyk	do you guys have the problem where sometimes little arrows like those indicating word wrap appear in Emacs when no word wrapping is actually needed
03:00	mmarczyk	and then never go away until M-x redraw-display ?
03:00	LauJensen	Not me
03:00	mmarczyk	and don't get me started on C-n jumping to mid-page without moving the visible part of the buffer when I attempt to scroll
03:01	mmarczyk	when a line is being wrapped
03:01	LauJensen	But for VC you have either Magit if you're advanced, or Egg if you just want a simple pretty interface for branching committing, stashing etc
03:01	mmarczyk	though that's not much of a problem, since I tend to either truncate-lines or use longlines-mode
03:01	LauJensen	mmarczyk: you can complain all you want, but you know its configurable right? E
03:01	mmarczyk	LauJensen: my particular complaints have to do with bugs
03:02	mmarczyk	a way to configure those a way could be considered a 'bug fix' -- and I'd love to know of one :-)
03:02	mmarczyk	re: Magit -- is it worth the time investment in your opinion?
03:02	Chousuke	yes
03:03	LauJensen	Depends entirely on your use. I personally dont use the advanced features more than 2 times a year, so I'm sticking with Egg.
03:03	mmarczyk	hm :-)
03:03	mmarczyk	with these two opinions, I'm about where I was before ;-)
03:03	mmarczyk	guess I'll give both a go
03:03	LauJensen	mmarczyk: hang on
03:04	Chousuke	I use magit since it's still being developed, albeit somewhat slowly
03:04	LauJensen	http://alexvollmer.com/posts/2009/01/18/meet-magit/
03:04	sexpbot	" Alex Vollmer — Meet Magit!"
03:04	mmarczyk	(note that I occasionally complain about both Vim and Emacs and I love them both :-))
03:04	LauJensen	Everything that guy does with Magit in terms of reflogs, pushing pulling cannot be done in Egg, but Egg looks muuch nicer, as you can see on its Github page
03:04	mmarczyk	LauJensen: cool, thanks!
03:04	Chousuke	in any case, magit is much preferable to git add -p
03:04	Chousuke	in my opinion, that's enough reason to use it.
03:04	LauJensen	Chousuke: thats certainly true
03:05	mmarczyk	-p ? I didn't even know that switch :-(
03:05	Chousuke	mmarczyk: it allows you to stage chunks of code instead of whole files
03:05	Chousuke	mmarczyk: useful if you make unrelated changes in a single file, or just don't want to commit everything
03:06	mmarczyk	oh? in that case, why didn't I know of that switch!?
03:06	mmarczyk	thanks :-)
03:06	LauJensen	mmarczyk: But you can do the same in Egg
03:06	Chousuke	mmarczyk: with magit you just press tab on a staged/unstaged files and it expands to a chunk view and you can again stage/unstage those
03:07	hiredman	magit lets you stage lines
03:07	Chousuke	LauJensen: egg doesn't let you split the chunks though as far as I know :/
03:07	Raynes	Magit is awesome.
03:08	Chousuke	LauJensen: that was the primary reason I moved to magit. And the unmaintainedness of egg :P
03:08	mmarczyk	wow, guys, thanks a bunch
03:08	LauJensen	Chousuke: No you dont split line-wise like hiredman mentions, but you do get to see your editions to a file as patches, which you can individually stage/unstage
03:08	Chousuke	LauJensen: yes, but can you split those patches?
03:08	LauJensen	no
03:09	mmarczyk	I get the feeling that I won't be able to understand what my work flow might have looked like before after I start using one of these :-)
03:09	Chousuke	git add -p and magit let you do that if the chunk is too large
03:09	Raynes	If you load an ns with a bunch of method definitions for a multimethods, and use remove-ns on it, are those methods still seen by the multimethod?
03:09	Raynes	s/multimethods/multimethod/
03:09	Chousuke	yes.
03:10	Raynes	Is there anyway to make them disappear?
03:10	Raynes	I'd like to murder them with an axe.
03:10	Chousuke	I think multimethods have a java method fro that.
03:10	mmarczyk	,(doc remove-method)
03:10	clojurebot	"([multifn dispatch-val]); Removes the method of multimethod associated with dispatch-value."
03:10	Raynes	I'll check that out.
03:10	Chousuke	oh, right.
03:11	Raynes	Well, that would work.
03:11	mmarczyk	don't know of a way to remove them by ns, though
03:11	Raynes	A bit more tedious than I hoped, but it fit's in with my current plugin system.
03:11	mmarczyk	or actually
03:12	mmarczyk	you could use
03:12	Raynes	Because each plugin's set of commands are categorized in a command-map by the name of the plugin, so I can just iterate through the keys.
03:12	mmarczyk	,(doc methods)
03:12	clojurebot	"([multifn]); Given a multimethod, returns a map of dispatch values -> dispatch fns"
03:12	Chousuke	I suppose namespaces don't support watchers
03:12	mmarczyk	than check metadata on the fns
03:12	mmarczyk	then
03:12	Raynes	I thought the ns the methods are defined in wasn't put in metadata?
03:12	Raynes	I believe I asked about something similar a while back.
03:12	mmarczyk	right :-(
03:12	mmarczyk	oh bother
03:13	mmarczyk	you could try extracting their class names
03:13	Chousuke	meh
03:13	mmarczyk	they contain a mangled ns name
03:13	Chousuke	just have an explicit unload function for each plugin ;P
03:13	mmarczyk	at this point I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth the trouble, though
03:13	Chousuke	that way you can also allow the plugin to do any teardown it might need.
03:13	Raynes	Chousuke: I do, but right now, it isn't "true" unloading. Right now, all I do is remove the commands from the command list. And that actually works just fine.
03:14	Raynes	I'm just curious.
03:14	Raynes	Each plugin attaches an unload and load fn that does the right thing to the modules ref.
03:16	Raynes	It unloads the commands (and the hooks when I'm finished with it tonight), but the ns and multimethods are still there. It's probably better that way anyway, but it's nice to know that there is a way to do what I was talking about with multimethods.
03:18	LauJensen	Ok, 10.04 is burned and ready to be installed, later :)
03:20	mmarczyk	good luck :-)
03:21	Raynes	mmarczyk: I give him 3 hours before he is in here whining about bugs.
03:22	Raynes	Of course, I don't really have a choice, seeing as Canonical is obviously not in a hurry to get me my fix.
03:22	mmarczyk	:-)
03:23	mmarczyk	no chance of some magazine bundling a cd?
03:25	Raynes	mmarczyk: Well, probably.
03:26	Raynes	I could just buy one and have it in like 3 days.
03:26	Raynes	But then I'd still be waiting a month before I install it.
03:26	Raynes	Because I'm a scared lolkitten, and I really do need to figure out how I'm going to backup my stuff OFF of the harddrive.
03:27	mmarczyk	oh, ok
03:27	Raynes	Oh wow. Irclj has more watchers than sexpbot.
03:27	Raynes	:o
03:27	Raynes	And you're one of them!!!
03:28	Raynes	http://github.com/Raynes/irclj/graphs/traffic You can see the spike in views from when you guys were playing with sexpbot once the new plugin system was introduced the other day.
03:28	mmarczyk	yup, I'll brush up on irc-fu while reading Clojure, which is always nice :-)
03:29	Raynes	I don't promise standards compliance in Irclj. I just hacked it together in such a way that I could replace Pircbot in sexpbot very cleanly, and try to make it prettier to use.
03:29	Raynes	I need to look at the reference and make sure I'm doin' it rite.
03:29	mmarczyk	there's no way I'm interested enough to read any irc-related standards
03:29	mmarczyk	but reading your lib should be fun enough :-)
03:30	mmarczyk	then I might become interested in the standards just to see if it works as it should ;-)
03:30	Raynes	My lib /works/ which is the most important thing. But, if people are actually ever going to use it, I need to make sure it's standard compliant (mostly).
03:30	Raynes	In case, you know, hiredman uses it for clojurebot. ;)
03:30	mmarczyk	:-)
03:30	Raynes	When I started it, I really knew nil about IRC. I asked many questions in #botters and such.
03:31	mmarczyk	that's where I'm at now
03:31	Raynes	Irclj is good enough to power sexpbot on two different servers, so I'm content.
03:44	LauJensen	Hmm
03:44	LauJensen	The install took 20 minutes or so, but the first boot was like..5 - 6 seconds. I dont want to be untruthful in any way, but I think it was that fast or faster
03:44	wooby	wb LauJensen, looks like at least networking is working!
03:45	LauJensen	thanks
03:45	LauJensen	I mean that was _really_ fast
03:46	mmarczyk	LauJensen: now let's see if you can be equally fast to break it :-)
03:46	LauJensen	Like a type-hinted version of Ubunjure
03:46	LauJensen	mmarczyk: yea gimme a sec :)
03:47	LauJensen	Does anybody have an oppinion on Chrome vs Chromium ?
03:48	Raynes	Firefox.
03:48	LauJensen	hehe
03:48	LauJensen	Firefox feels so 1980s now
03:48	Raynes	FFJure.
03:48	Raynes	So does Hardy.
03:48	LauJensen	True
03:48	Raynes	You, with your new fangled Lynx.
03:48	mmarczyk	LauJensen: I'm more interested in Chrome vs. Opera :-)
03:48	LauJensen	I tried forcefully to go back to Firefox, using plugins to fill the backs - I just couldnt
03:49	Raynes	Me sitting here on dial-up with Hardy running on Wubi in a Vista installation.
03:49	Raynes	Might as well just stop programming completely and sink into the 30s.
03:49	mmarczyk	well, actually I'll be interested in that again when 10.5 appears on Linux
03:49	LauJensen	Raynes: Yea with your dad running the treadmill so you can get power
03:49	Raynes	It's my cat running the treadmill.
03:49	LauJensen	I never found Opera remotely appealing, because of the lack of plugins
03:49	vu3rdd	when you do (use '[] :only ()) isn't it strange that the vector does need quote but the list does not need it?
03:50	LauJensen	(:use [something]) or (use '[something])
03:50	vu3rdd	yes, the former inside the ns
03:50	LauJensen	yes
03:50	LauJensen	the latter on the ladder
03:50	vu3rdd	ok.
03:51	LauJensen	vu3rdd: But yea, the whole import,require,use,:use,refer stuff is still a bit confusing to me
03:51	vu3rdd	yes, to me too. I keep looking at the docs or code every time I use it
03:52	mmarczyk	LauJensen: well, there's user js for things like click-to-flash
03:52	mmarczyk	but there's no equivalent to rikaichan / rikaikun
03:52	LauJensen	mmarczyk: yes, and you can also modify the core in a hex-editor, but whats your point?
03:53	mmarczyk	my point is that all the things I used to use plugins for in FF (a ways back) or Chrome are done better in Opera out-of-the-box
03:54	LauJensen	ok
03:54	mmarczyk	but of course I didn't intend that as an argument
03:54	mmarczyk	as mentioned, I use rikaikun in Chrome -- no equivalent in Opera to that :-(
03:55	LauJensen	will have to look that up
03:55	mmarczyk	there's no equivalent to the way in which Opera allows you to configure all keybindings etc.
03:55	mmarczyk	then carry that config around
03:56	mmarczyk	plus I think its session manager is just about the best of those I've used
03:56	LauJensen	I would like to write a plugin for Chrome, so that it read my .emacs
03:56	mmarczyk	rikaichan (FF) / rikaikun (Chrome) -- hover your cursor over a kanji to have a cartoon bubble with translations come up :-)
03:57	mmarczyk	also does clusters of consecutive kanji/kana
03:57	mmarczyk	LauJensen: oh, please do :-D
03:58	LauJensen	Looking at your plugin, I must admit I have zero need of understanding Japanese and infact I would like suggest that we outlaw it
03:58	AWizzArd	Morning.
03:58	mmarczyk	LauJensen: in that case I think you can't possibly have a valid reason not to use Opera, since that's the only worthwhile thing it doesn't have ;-)
03:58	mmarczyk	AWizzArd: morning
03:58	LauJensen	ok :)
03:59	LauJensen	Japanese is back in the game!
03:59	LauJensen	Morning Andre
03:59	mmarczyk	:-)
04:05	LauJensen	Ok, ~18 seconds with all my packages installed
04:05	LauJensen	(I'll give Ubuntu a rest now)
04:08	esj	LauJensen: it is extremely nice
04:10	mmarczyk	btw, how would one go about setting up a small separate window for erc to send various notices to?
04:11	mmarczyk	I've got them turned off so as not to have them clutter up the chat window, but if I could use a separate pane for them, that'd be cool
04:11	LauJensen	mmarczyk: depends a little on which level you're asking, but you need to hook ERC's events and then you can handle them like you want
04:11	mmarczyk	I was hoping for an event received hook, yeah
04:12	mmarczyk	also, is there a standard hook for after joining a channel?
04:12	LauJensen	If you search site:emacswiki.org you'll get demos for many hooks, though I cant claim to known them all, or even a fraction
04:12	mmarczyk	yeah, tried doing that; maybe not dilligently enough
04:12	LauJensen	#emacs is always helpful
04:12	mmarczyk	will try again tonight
04:13	mmarczyk	oh, good idea
04:13	mmarczyk	thanks, I'll try that
04:13	LauJensen	np
04:22	stilkov	,(format "%" "please ignore")
04:22	clojurebot	java.util.UnknownFormatConversionException: Conversion = '%'
04:22	stilkov	,(format "%s" "please ignore")
04:22	clojurebot	"please ignore"
04:24	LauJensen	stilkov: for non-general-interest stuff, I think you can actually query the bot
04:25	stilkov	LauJensen: sorry about that, you are right
04:25	LauJensen	its not a problem, just wanted to make sure you knew :)
04:46	hircus	is there a known problem with the latest leiningen? It just stops after "Copied :dev-dependencies"
05:36	Licenser	hmm I found something very odd:
05:37	Licenser	(. GridBagConstraints LINE_END) ; => 22
05:37	Licenser	(let [c GridBagConstraints] (. c LINE_END)) ; => No matching field found: LINE_END for class java.lang.Class
05:37	Licenser	is there some evil magic going on here?
05:41	sids	Licenser: I believe . expects the literal class name. This should work: (let [c GridBagContraints] (eval `(. ~c LINE_END))
05:42	Raynes	Yike.s
05:42	Licenser	cries
05:42	Raynes	Yikes.*
05:42	Licenser	thakns you sids
05:43	Licenser	this is more then horrible but it works
05:46	Licenser	this is ugliish ugly so to say
05:47	Licenser	good greif
05:48	mmarczyk	,(require '[clojure.contrib.java :as java])
05:48	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/java__init.class or clojure/contrib/java.clj on classpath:
05:48	mmarczyk	,(require '[clojure.contrib.reflect :as reflect])
05:48	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/reflect__init.class or clojure/contrib/reflect.clj on classpath:
05:48	mmarczyk	wutsitcalled
05:48	mmarczyk	,(require '[clojure.contrib.java-utils :as java])
05:48	clojurebot	nil
05:49	mmarczyk	,(let [c Integer] (java/wall-hack-method c 'MAX_VALUE c))
05:49	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: java-utils$wall-hack-method
05:49	mmarczyk	hm, worked for me at a 1.2 repl
05:49	mmarczyk	aaaah
05:49	mmarczyk	,(let [c Integer] (java/wall-hack-field c 'MAX_VALUE c))
05:49	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.reflect.ReflectPermission suppressAccessChecks)
05:50	mmarczyk	well, that's likely clojurebot's sandboxing in action
05:51	sids	mmarczyk: works on the 1.1 repl too
05:52	mmarczyk	sids: right; sandboxing it is with the bot
05:52	sids	but it is (almost) as ugly as the eval solution
05:53	mmarczyk	I'm considering taking issue with the notion that my reflective solution might not be the ugliest ;-)
05:53	sids	:)
05:55	Licenser	sids: but it ets way less ugly when you concider that I do this in a mcaro and the conbination of `in ~ in ~ in ' and ~@ makes it a major PITA
05:56	sids	Licenser: yeah, it'll start looking like perl!
05:56	Licenser	I don't even get it working since it's too silly :P
05:57	Licenser	or I am too stupid
05:57	mmarczyk	got a gist?
06:00	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/385022 L 32
06:00	Raynes	Licenser: You know, you can anchor to lines right?
06:01	Licenser	Raynes: not in gits
06:01	Licenser	at least not in this one, don't ask me why
06:01	Licenser	I tried it
06:01	Raynes	Huh.
06:01	mmarczyk	Chrome vs. line numbers on GitHub, the hopeless battle
06:01	Raynes	That's odd.
06:01	Raynes	I thought you could.
06:01	mmarczyk	oh, but fortunately they look fine this time
06:01	Licenser	mmarczyk: nope safari
06:01	AWizzArd	How can I open a repl in VimClojure?
06:01	Licenser	worked great iup to now
06:01	mmarczyk	Licenser: I mean Chrome misplaces them and I'm using Chrome now
06:02	mmarczyk	Licenser: nothing to do with anchoring
06:02	Licenser	heh
06:02	Licenser	ah
06:02	mmarczyk	so that's set-constraint!, right?
06:02	Licenser	it's wooooookring
06:02	Licenser	mmarczyk: yea
06:02	mmarczyk	oh :-)
06:02	mmarczyk	ok then
06:02	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/385022 is too
06:03	mmarczyk	cool :-)
06:04	mmarczyk	clj-swing ?
06:04	Licenser	mmarczyk: yea working on that
06:05	mmarczyk	a greatly promising name! :-)
06:05	Licenser	mmarczyk: assuming I get it ever to work - yes :P
06:05	Raynes	I think you mean swingjure
06:05	Raynes	:p
06:05	mmarczyk	:-)
06:06	Licenser	tried that, lein complained
06:06	Licenser	j/k
06:06	LauJensen	Licenser: use leinjure instead :)
06:06	mmarczyk	:-)
06:08	Licenser	I should rename the project to macro-madness
06:09	_exterm	Hey everybody, I just read through a bit of the swank-clojure repl startup code and don't quite understand it. It's this piece http://gist.github.com/385027
06:09	_exterm	Why is stop set to return true?
06:10	_exterm	is the start-server bit executed for every call to the :read callback of the repl?
06:13	mmarczyk	_exterm: it would probably be user to try & answer if you posted a link to the relevant bit of swank-clojure's source in its natural context :-)
06:13	mmarczyk	http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/
06:13	LauJensen	wow that code looks old... (swap! stop (fn [_] true)) => (swap! stop (fn [] true)) => (reset! stop true)
06:14	mmarczyk	http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/src/swank/swank.clj#L60
06:19	spariev	swank-clojure is probably the oldest third-party clojure code in the entire universe
06:20	mmarczyk	well it seems to me that this simply sends the server-starting expression back to the repl
06:20	mmarczyk	and as soon as that's executed, it sends the exit form
06:21	_exterm	ah, that makes sense :-)
06:22	mmarczyk	does it? oh good. I don't know how start-server is defined, so wouldn't know :-)
06:22	mmarczyk	now I'd be curious to find out why is a sensible thing to do
06:26	LauJensen	All Emacers simple hit 'M-. start-server' in the REPL to find out how its defined
06:27	mmarczyk	yeah, I could do that too
06:27	mmarczyk	but I'm too lazy to look it up on GH to post a link and open it in Emacs
06:29	_exterm	http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/src/swank/swank.clj#L48
06:30	mmarczyk	I think I'm going to write a function to come up with the GitHub link for a file in a repo cloned from GH :-)
06:30	_exterm	;-)
06:31	mmarczyk	together with your suggestions re: Magit / Egg from earlier, that'll make for the ultimate source control bliss :-)
06:32	mmarczyk	_exterm: yup, noticed that ;-) but only followed to setup-server now
06:33	mmarczyk	I can't believe this code :-)
06:35	mmarczyk	LauJensen: does Emacs have something like C-o (in normal mode) for "jump back"?
06:40	mmarczyk	M-* ! lovely :-)
06:40	Raynes	If I have several maps with the same keys and each value is a different sequence, what would be the best way to turn {:blah {:this [1 2 3]} :blah2 {:this [4 5 6]}} into {:this [1 2 3 4 5 6]}?
06:42	mmarczyk	,{:this (reduce into (map #(:this (% 1)) {:blah {:this [1 2 3]} :blah2 {:this [4 5 6]}}))}
06:42	clojurebot	{:this [1 2 3 4 5 6]}
06:43	Raynes	Cool.
06:43	mmarczyk	,(apply merge-with into (vals {:blah {:this [1 2 3]} :blah2 {:this [4 5 6]}}))
06:43	clojurebot	{:this [1 2 3 4 5 6]}
06:43	mmarczyk	better :-)
06:43	Raynes	Cooler.
06:43	Raynes	Thanks.
06:43	mmarczyk	np
06:43	Raynes	Didn't know about merge-with.
06:43	Raynes	Exactly what I was looking for.
06:44	mmarczyk	perhaps concat would be more appropriate though
06:44	_ato	mmarczyk: with slime you can use M-. and M-,
06:44	mmarczyk	if the seqs might not be all vectors
06:44	mmarczyk	_ato: lovely! thank you
06:48	mmarczyk	http://code.google.com/p/wave-client-for-emacs/
06:48	sexpbot	" wave-client-for-emacs - Project Hosting on Google Code"
06:48	mmarczyk	oh come on now!?
07:08	rsynnott	Hey, does anyone know in what version protocols were added/will be added?
07:09	hoeck	rsynnott: 1.2
07:09	rsynnott	ah, thanks
07:09	hoeck	will be added in 1.2
07:11	hoeck	rsynnott: they are, it's big fun programming with them!
07:14	bozhidar	hoeck: good one :-)
07:16	hoeck	bozhidar: thats not from me, found it there: http://www.zazzle.com/clojure+programmers+have+more+fn+gifts
07:16	sexpbot	" Clojure Programmers Have More Fn T-Shirts, Clojure Programmers Have More Fn Gifts, Art, Posters, and more"
07:22	bozhidar	nice
07:33	ivenkys	Stella.........................
07:33	ivenkys	oh i mean afternoon gents
07:37	Raynes	mmarczyk: Stop getting all the easy questions! :p
07:42	Licenser	so has anyone used clojure with swing a lot? I am looking for some code examples here
07:42	Licenser	and I don't mean the few blog posts out there that show some tutorial programs but seriouse code :P
07:43	rsynnott	Licenser: the blog posts with tutorial code should give you the general idea
07:43	rsynnott	after that it should be rather like using swing with java, I would have thought
07:44	Licenser	rsynnott: I know, but my goal is not to use swing but to make a nice clojury wraper/lib for it
07:45	Licenser	so I can either do it on a theoretical base of 'what I think might be needed' or look at actual code and see how people use it - which I think is much more helpful
07:45	rsynnott	hmm
07:46	rhudson	Licenser: I would imagine that Incanter does a lot of Swing
07:46	Licenser	I went through the blog posts already and harvested everything I could as usage cases there
07:46	Licenser	peaks at incanter then
07:48	hoeck	Licenser: whats the goal of your lib?
07:48	Licenser	hoeck: making it easy (I like that word a lot :P) to make clojure programs with a gui
07:48	hoeck	Licenser: do you aim at having a clojure-friendly way to do guis?
07:48	Licenser	yap
07:49	hoeck	what about apache pivot then?
07:49	Licenser	hoeck: I know you've this apache pivot lib but it requires an extra dependency and I am not entirely sure if pivot is good for desctop apps
07:49	hoeck	got a nice clojure wrapper for it :)
07:50	Licenser	I know I know hoeck ^^
07:50	hoeck	okay, its currently limited to only one single host frame
07:50	hoeck	and its lacks good examples
07:52	Licenser	I've no idea what single host frames are o.O and examples are true :P I didn't find any
07:53	rhudson	A few years back I did a fair bit of Swing using Jython. My recollection is that dynamic typing and first-class functions eases a lot of the pain of Swing.
07:54	rhudson	A crucial aspect of keeping things sane with Swing is to somehow arrange that the tree structure of widgets be reflected in tree structure of code.
07:55	rhudson	That's my two bits -- not that USD0.25 gets you far these days.
07:57	Licenser	rhudson: this is what I got so far: https://gist.github.com/9e9fb363b502733a0e31
07:58	Licenser	(look at the very botton the two functions there are examples)
07:59	rhudson	Looks good
08:00	Licenser	:)
08:03	rhudson	I think it might be a bit clearer, though, if you had a list of components under frame -- e.g. lines 92--95 would be a separate form.
08:03	rhudson	That way it's easier to have separate functions to generate subassemblies.
08:04	rhudson	But maybe just judicious use of commas would do the trick.
08:08	Licenser	looks at the lines
08:09	hamza	,(drop (int 1/2) [1 2 3])
08:09	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
08:09	hamza	,(drop 1/2 [1 2 3])
08:09	clojurebot	(2 3)
08:09	rhudson	That button is at [1 1] ? It's probably better to be explicit about thata
08:09	hamza	^ is this expected or a bug?
08:10	Licenser	rhudson: my first attempt was to make that a single form but it turned out to be non functional since sadly the constrains are not related to the object but they have to be passed to the container when you add the child
08:10	Licenser	the idae of this slowly changing of constraint is from stuart sierras blog
08:11	rhudson	Not sure I like that idea...
08:12	Licenser	rhudson: neither am I :P hence my trying to find some input
08:13	_ato	hamza: if it were a bug what would you expect to get instead?
08:13	Licenser	https://gist.github.com/e0c50ac49c001361cb84 was another attempt
08:13	hamza	[1 2 3] in both cases?
08:13	rhudson	Right, the constraints are container args, so somethng like (add-to container :x 1 :y 1 (button ...))
08:14	rhudson	& then do you have something like (doto container ....) to add children
08:14	_ato	,(drop 3/2 [1 2 3])
08:14	clojurebot	(3)
08:14	_ato	,(drop 0.9 [1 2 3])
08:14	clojurebot	(2 3)
08:15	Licenser	rhudson: nods I thought about that too but that usually let you with a huge let around the whole code where you define your buttons/lables/boxes/fields etc then glue them together and I found that ugly
08:15	hamza	,(drop 0.4 [1 2 3])
08:15	clojurebot	(2 3)
08:15	_ato	,(drop (int 1/2) [1 2 3])
08:15	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
08:15	_ato	yeah, I guess it's a bug
08:16	_ato	although a lot of people might say that it's just invalid input
08:16	Licenser	,(drop (int 1) [1 2 3])
08:16	clojurebot	(2 3)
08:17	_ato	,(take 1/2 [1 2 3])
08:17	clojurebot	(1)
08:17	_ato	guess it's consistent with take at least
08:18	jweiss	i didn't even know you could write a number as "1/2"
08:19	_ato	1/2 is the syntax for ratios
08:19	_ato	,(class 1/2)
08:19	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Ratio
08:19	_ato	,1/2
08:19	clojurebot	1/2
08:19	ivenkys	how do you invoke the bot gents ..?
08:19	_ato	just write some code prepended with a comma
08:20	hamza	_ato: even if rounds i would expect 0.4 to work but that would still drop the first element.
08:20	hamza	,(drop 0.4 [1 2 3])
08:20	clojurebot	(2 3)
08:20	_ato	~def drop
08:21	_ato	it just checks pos? and decrements and recurses
08:21	_ato	so anything >= 1.0 will drop an element
08:25	_ato	I mean > 0.0
08:25	ivenkys	,( + 2 3)
08:25	clojurebot	5
08:25	rhudson	Licenser: parting thought (breakfast time!): try looking at some of the XML-based layout DSLs (Pivot, JavaFX, Flex) as a model for defining some reasonable widget-tree macros.
08:26	Licenser	thanks for the advice rhudson and good breakfast
08:26	rhudson	have a great day
08:27	Licenser	mm can I add a protocol to a java class? I guess not right?
08:29	chouser	you can extend a protocol to a java class
08:40	rhickey	so, in an effort to ease migration pains, I am thinking about different policies for conflicts when trying to refer to something in a ns. Right now it just throws and exception saying, already refers to XXX, but it could instead:
08:40	rhickey	generate a warning but take the latter
08:40	rhickey	or
08:41	rhickey	having conflict resolution like, 'core wins', also with a warning
08:42	LauJensen	One thing I like about the current exception throwing, is that things gets fixed. I remember in CL I had a tendency to resolve it temporarily and then hack away, forgetting about it - Might just me be though :)
08:43	Licenser	hmm I think conflicts should throw exceptions, otherwise LauJensen is right, it will be forgotten
08:44	cgrand	rhickey: conlict resolution between several refered libs or between the namespace-being-defined and refered libs/core?
08:44	Licenser	but perhaps make the exception a bite more expressive so
08:44	rhickey	cgrand: however the conflict occurs, not sensitive to context
08:45	Licenser	like saying 'can't refer #clojure.controb.funky/do since #clojure.core/do already claims this' just in propper english :P
08:46	chouser	a general "first one in wins" plus a warning should allow core fns to win (which seems right) and be a stable simple behavior people can rely on.
08:46	rhickey	Licenser: something like that, although core-wins probably isn't going to work out
08:46	rhickey	chouser: the problem is, you have your own code wich uses 'foo' then core comes around with a new 'foo', can't be what you want
08:46	Licenser	what about something like (use '(clojure.contrib.funky :overwrite do)
08:47	chouser	rhickey: right, in which case you have to follow the same steps you would today
08:47	rhickey	chouser: then this isn't solving the upgrade-without-breaking problem
08:47	chouser	roll back to an old clojure, rename your 'foo' to something else, refer-clojure to exclude or rename core/foo ...
08:48	chouser	not completely, but it would help some.
08:48	Licenser	I thinkit is good to be very annoying about overwriting core stuff
08:48	rhickey	chouser: the goal is upgrade without breaking, one release, 'replaced' things stay there, deprecated
08:49	Licenser	I'm not sure if you can upgrade w/o breaking
08:50	rhickey	so your build says 'overwriting core/foo', or 'overwriting core/shuffle' followed by 'deprecated contrib.seq/shuffle'
08:50	cgrand	rhickey: I guess that :added + :as-of doesn't satisfy you
08:50	rhickey	cgrand: still breaking in that you have to add that
08:51	rhickey	cgrand: I like :as-of, but it doesn't exist yet
08:51	Licenser	hmm how about this rule:
08:52	Licenser	clojure.core overwrite clojure.contrib, provate namespace overwrites clojure.core and of cause clojure.contrib
08:52	Licenser	so if I have a foo method I declare myself, I likely want to keep it the same, even if core gives me one too
08:52	Licenser	we can live old functions in clojure.contrib since core overwrites them
08:52	LauJensen	rhickey: It seems you want to try and prevent breakage of something which should rightfully break, ie. I dont want my program to run if functions are being added in an uncontrolled manner
08:52	Licenser	:as-of 1.1.0 would give me the function of the 1.1.0 clojure?
08:52	rhickey	Licenser: sometimes, in moving to core, semantics or return types might change slightly
08:53	Licenser	hmmm
08:53	Licenser	hmm hmmm
08:53	cgrand	rhickey: so you'd like existing 1.1 libs to work with 1.2 even in case of nameclashes? Then I guess it's "last wins" + warning
08:54	Licenser	I generally don't think breaking is bad so, since a lot of what changes really needs user attention but I'm uncertain about version stuff then, is clojure using that semver system because then it should not be 1.2 but 2.0
08:54	rhickey	cgrand: existing client code. Maybe forcing :as-of now is the last we'll have to break as we move forward. But :as-of still requires changes as things move or are renamed
08:55	rhickey	Licenser: with semver Clojure will be up to version 20 in no time
08:55	Licenser	rhickey: you can call it done with version 42 then :P
08:56	Licenser	but yes I undestand the issue, could have left it 0.* to be server free untll the API is stable but that won't have looked good
08:57	Licenser	but when we don't have to follow semver with clojure break for good that at least forces people to update their stuff :P
08:57	Licenser	but the :as-of stuff might be good
08:58	Licenser	could I do (require [some.other.lib :as-of 1.1.0 :as sol]) to by that forcing the whole require tree of some.other.lib into 1.1.0?
08:58	Licenser	if that works :as-of will solve a lot of problems
08:58	Licenser	the worst problem I see are in non accessable 3rd party libs. If it is your code, you can go around and change it once it breaks if it is not your code, you can't
09:00	rhickey	code that breaks c.c.seq :as seq ... seq/shuffle, if it's not there. use c.c.seq :only (shuffle), but that might become 'harmless if missing'
09:01	rhudson	Licenser: one more thought: take a look at Groovy's SwingBuilder: http://groovy.codehaus.org/Swing+Builder
09:02	sexpbot	"Groovy - Swing Builder"
09:02	Licenser	rhudson: thank you I will
09:22	cgrand	maybe leaving stubs for moved/renamed vars or having per ns an history of renames/moves :-/
09:24	chouser	revision control systems are good at this kind of thing
09:25	chouser	perhaps "upgrade without breaking" is a false goal? There could be branch with bug fixes and non-breaking new features.
09:25	rhickey	chouser: yeah, and when people were pulling Clojure from svn we never had these problem - not ready, don't pull. Now we have maven shapshot hell
09:26	powr-toc	Does anyone know how to get swank to use a ~/.user.clj file?
09:30	Chousuke	rhickey: the git project has a policy that master is always stable and "breaking" development happens in a branch that actually gets rebased every once in a while. It might not work for Clojure but I think it's worth taking a look at how they do things.
09:30	rhickey	chouser: yes, could be unobtainable goal
09:31	Chousuke	git's commit log is always a pleasure to read too. It requires a lot of discipline to achieve such consistency though.
09:31	rhickey	Chousuke: that doesn't really solve the problem of breaking when moving to new version. People do want the new version, new features, not just bugfixes
09:32	Chousuke	rhickey: right. I think git's pretty strict about maintaining backwards compatibility, but obviously in that regard it's not very comparable with Clojure.
09:32	rhickey	In this case, the breaking is largeley on the side of users of contrib. But the foo-added-to-core problem is core breaking you, not itself
09:34	rhickey	e.g. from the perspective of a user of core, it got shuffle added. Non-breaking. cgrand's :as-of idea would protect you if you had a shuffle of your own, as would last-one-wins-with-warning
09:34	Licenser	crazy idea
09:34	Licenser	since clojure code is just data, why not make a updateer :P
09:34	Licenser	when the reader notices that your code is for 1.1.0 it asks you if it should update it for 1.2.0
09:35	Licenser	might now work for every single peace of code (think eval and stuff) but for a lot
09:35	chouser	unfortunately, we still don't edit the code that is data
09:35	_ato	I guess last-one-wins it's how it's handled in python and ruby, you can redefine a core function, it won't even warn
09:36	chouser	we edit text files that become data after relatively trivial rules are applied. Rules the lose important information like comments and spacing.
09:36	Licenser	_ato: well I like the warnings since it's bad charma to redefien core functions
09:36	Chousuke	rhickey: so you could in a ns declaration specify which version of clojure core you're targeting and the :as-of metadata is checked and newer stuff in core is not imported/you get a warning? :/
09:36	chouser	that lose
09:36	rhickey	_ato: this is not that, you aren't replacing the core thing in core, just in your view of the world
09:36	Licenser	chouser: noone will stop the reader to read comments and spacings too :P
09:37	_exterm	clojure.core question: how does eval work? http://gist.github.com/385198 looks like an infinite recursion to me.
09:37	Chousuke	_exterm: that's not a call to the eval function
09:37	_ato	rhickey: that too. put a "def dir(x): x" in a foo.py and do "from foo import *" from the repl, no warning, the one you get is the last you imported
09:38	Chousuke	_exterm: note the . form
09:38	chouser	Licenser: I'd be very pleased to see a sane solution for that, but I haven't thought of any. If you read a file that has 10 lines, all blank except a middle one that was the word "true" indented by 6 spaces, how is that read?
09:38	Chousuke	_exterm: it's calling the clojure.lang.Compiler/eval static method
09:38	Licenser	chouser: we've meta data here :)
09:38	chouser	Licenser: not on booleans
09:38	chouser	nor on Booleans
09:38	Licenser	then we add that :P
09:38	Chousuke	:P
09:39	Chousuke	not possible. sorry.
09:39	_exterm	Chousuke: really? I always thought that would be (. clojure.lang.Compiler eval form))
09:39	chouser	and even if we did, you want ^{:text-before "\n\n\n\n " :text-after "\n\n\n\n\n"} true !?
09:40	_exterm	Isn't that evaluated with the innermost expression first?
09:40	Chousuke	_exterm: no.
09:40	Chousuke	_exterm: . is a special form
09:40	chouser	_exterm: that's old-style interop syntax.
09:40	Licenser	Chousuke: of case make true a clojure.core.Boolean instead of a java.lang.Boolean
09:40	Chousuke	Licenser: that's not very neat.
09:40	chouser	_exterm: today we're write (Compiler/eval form)
09:40	Chousuke	Licenser: Clojure's interop is supposed to be wrapper-free :)
09:40	chouser	Licenser: I did say "sane" :-)
09:41	powr-toc	Hmmm I'm using slime-connect to connect to a mvn clojure:swank, and I'd like it to automatically include my ~/.clojure/user.clj file on the classpath... does anyone know how to do this?
09:41	Chousuke	you could of course write a special reader that returns whitespace elements as well.
09:41	Licenser	:P
09:41	Licenser	annotations? dodges
09:42	_exterm	Chousuke: thanks :-)
09:42	chouser	Chousuke: hmm... said that way, it sounds interesting.
09:43	Chousuke	chouser: it would be useful for many tools at least
09:43	_ato	so for python, introducing new core functions has been non-breaking, since if someone had defined their own (or pulled one in from an older lib), there's no problem, they just get that one. The changes they really worry about are new reserved words. On the other hand that does mean they could import two libraries and one would clobber the other
09:43	_ato	without error
09:43	Licenser	nods smart idea
09:43	chouser	the whitespace elements don't have to be strings. Could be objects that have the text, line number, file name, etc.
09:44	chouser	Chousuke: then the "real" reader could actually take that output and strip out those extra objects.
09:44	Chousuke	or a reader that can be restarted. could eg. "parse" incomplete clojure code in an editor and instead of getting weird exceptions the thing could efficiently mark the code as faulty, and then remove the marking once it's completed.
09:45	Chousuke	chouser: or you could just have two modes for the reader if you designed the thing well enough I suppose.
09:45	chouser	what about the whitespace and comments between metadata and its target. :-/
09:46	Chousuke	you could return a metadata-element, whitespace-element, and the target-element
09:46	LauJensen	Chousuke: You made it restartable ?
09:47	Chousuke	LauJensen: no. I did toy with the idea once but it's not very easy ;P
09:52	cemerick	stuarthalloway: how is your 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT version spec ever touching the 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT stuff at all?
09:52	stuarthalloway	damn good question
09:53	stuarthalloway	if I specify the "and greater" form it finds master instead
09:53	cemerick	that's odd
09:53	stuarthalloway	but to spec
09:53	cemerick	oh really?
09:53	stuarthalloway	maven does a string compare on the "qualifier" section of the version number
09:53	_ato	yeah, that's just the way maven compares version numbers
09:53	stuarthalloway	and the word "master" is > any number
09:54	cemerick	oh, right, I see
09:54	stuarthalloway	but we shouldn't have two sets of artifacts anyway
09:54	cemerick	another nail in the coffin of artifacts corresponding to git branches
09:54	cemerick	I'd strongly suggest blowing away the 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT dir
09:55	stuarthalloway	but that is the one consistent with the name in clojure :-(
09:55	_ato	ugh
09:55	stuarthalloway	no matter what I do I bet I break someone
09:55	_ato	please don't break all the dependencies again
09:55	chouser	cemerick: what should we do next time there's a branch with experimental changes that some people want?
09:55	_ato	bad enough when contrib got renamed
09:55	cemerick	except no one, but no one should be using it
09:55	_ato	wait until 1.3
09:56	cemerick	chouser: in that case, people should pull and build on their own
09:56	cemerick	The activity of people on the bleeding edge should not leak out for everyone to see.
09:56	cemerick	And the maven artifacts are the touchpoint for the entire userbase.
09:56	stuarthalloway	it would be great if somebody wrote a 1-2 page "all the maven you need to know to be on the edge of project"
09:56	chouser	really!? You're saying there should be no artifact id at all for such things?
09:57	_ato	change the artifactId instead of the version? clojure-with-awesome-feature-1.2-SNAPSHOT
09:57	cemerick	If there is to be one, it should have a different project name, or live in a different repo.
09:57	stuarthalloway	I am perfectly happy with the clojure artifact names. They all have version and branch in them, and are consistent
09:58	cemerick	stuarthalloway: well, when it was 1.2-new-SNAPSHOT vs. 1.2-master-SNAPSHOT, that wasn't as nice.
09:58	stuarthalloway	at least you knew what you were getting
09:58	_ato	but I wasn't using version ranges
09:58	cemerick	_ato: but for people who didn't even know what new vs. master was, it was a big problem.
09:59	Licenser	why not clojure-SNAPSHOT?
09:59	Licenser	erm 1.2-SNAPSOT
09:59	Licenser	sorry
09:59	cemerick	Licenser: yeah, that's really what it should be IMO.
09:59	stuarthalloway	clojure isn't hurting anybody, and that would be a breaking change if we did it now
09:59	Licenser	that is what I think since maven runs nuts with the -master thing I think
09:59	cemerick	stuarthalloway: right, for the future, I mean
10:00	stuarthalloway	so the real question (in terms of breakage right now) is which name people use when referring to contrib
10:00	_ato	"new" vs "master" was partly because "new" was an extremely misleading name ;-)
10:01	cemerick	stuarthalloway: surely there are logs where one can see if anyone is actually asking for 1.2-master-SNAPSHOT updates?
10:01	Licenser	oi (instance nil ...) is a NPE
10:01	AWizzArd	Will the "parallel branch" of the repository work under JDK 7?
10:02	cemerick	And if the ratio of them to those asking for 1.2-SNAPSHOT updates is acceptably small, just rm the dir, and people will field questions here and on the list.
10:02	stuarthalloway	dysinger (or someone else behind his company firewall) could
10:02	stuarthalloway	I was doing the research in the other direction: grabbing clojure projects and reading their pom.xml or project.clj files
10:03	rhickey	to the extent these deps systems are unaware of the VCS systems they are just wrong
10:04	rhickey	VCS is system of record, has concrete names for everything, knows what is derived from what else
10:04	rhickey	no manual naming 'schemes', interpretation issues etc
10:04	cemerick	rhickey: except the entire notion of version numbers has a lot of friction with DVCSs, or git anyway.
10:04	cemerick	sequential* version numbers, that is
10:05	_ato	clojars.org log shows 1676 hits for clojure-contrib/1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT and 3315 for clojure-contrib/1.2.0-SNAPSHOT
10:05	_ato	in the last 5 days
10:05	rhickey	cemerick: still, git has names (hashes) and knows what is derived from what else, the problem is in requiring version numbers, not git
10:05	Licenser	so away with -master! :P
10:05	cemerick	rhickey: except the whole world uses sequential version number to identify concrete builds and relationships between them.
10:06	rhickey	cemerick: not anymore they don't
10:06	cemerick	oh?
10:06	rhickey	not once using git
10:06	Licenser	if we write a own dependecy management system for clojure count me in!
10:06	Licenser	hence I'll even start writing it :P
10:06	cemerick	rhickey: as a user, I want clojure 1.2, not clojure 453feb12
10:06	Licenser	stuarthalloway: good man!
10:07	LauJensen	rhickey: you're not entirely dismissing the notion of stable realeases named by 1.1 or 1.2 etc right? Just for the snapshot states you're saying its irelevant ?
10:07	rhickey	cemerick: you can always tag 453feb42 as version 1.2, that would also be known to git
10:07	Licenser	I don't think those things are mutally exclusive
10:08	rhickey	cemerick: but saying, no one can use anything not such tagged is onerous
10:08	rhickey	as we have knowledge about these things, just mvn doesn't
10:08	rhickey	mvn should ask git/VCS
10:08	AWizzArd	hmm, interesting point
10:09	cemerick	rhickey: well, mvn has knowledge about whatever you tell it. You could absolutely publish bleeding edge experimental stuff to mvn, but I think it's a bad idea to conflate it with mainline version numbers for the general public.
10:09	cemerick	e.g. the 1.1-new vs. 1.1-master
10:09	rhickey	cemerick: but retelling things is like a game of telephone, totally lossy
10:10	cemerick	rhickey: what's the retelling, the specifying of a version number outside of a git hash or tag?
10:10	rhickey	cemerick: yeah
10:10	cemerick	hrm
10:10	Licenser	hmmm to make maven happy use clojure-new 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT?
10:11	Licenser	or even new/clojure which would be the best way I geuss
10:11	cemerick	rhickey: I think the alignment of the two (version number and git rev) only occurs in specific cases.
10:11	rhickey	also, we didn't have these problems pre-maven. People only pulled what and when they wanted, and the build easily worked with the version they had
10:11	cemerick	rhickey: heh; sorta like "I didn't have this oil change problem when I used a horse!" ;-)
10:12	rhickey	cemerick: not at all like that
10:12	Licenser	hmm perhaps rhickey was happyer with his horse?
10:12	rhickey	we waste much more time on this stuff now than before maven solved our dependency problem
10:13	LauJensen	rhickey: Do you see an alternative to Maven which would rid us of these problems?
10:13	Licenser	hmm the only reason we have maven is the java world uses it right?
10:13	cemerick	rhickey: I assure you that having a stable mvn repo makes my life easier compared to maintaining a local build of things. Nevermind the "typical" java dev.
10:15	Licenser	well if there is a way out of maven, and we specify what we really want I'll gladly invest the time to start of a project to realize it
10:15	_ato	we could just do away with snapshots. This will probably have two effects: less talk of breakage but git doesn't get anywhere near as thouroughly tested before stable release
10:15	cemerick	oy
10:15	rhickey	cemerick: not mine, as it makes it harder for people to follow Clojure development, and the admonitions to not ever use snapshots doesn't help at all
10:15	Borkdude	Ah, a German book on Clojure? http://bit.ly/dqWoBp
10:16	sexpbot	"Clojure: Einführung und Praxis: Amazon.de: Stefan Kamphausen, Tim Oliver Kaiser: Bücher"
10:16	cemerick	rhickey: who's having a harder time following clojure dev?
10:17	rhickey	cemerick: everyone with snapshot in their deps, who get things they aren't ready for?
10:17	AWizzArd	Since the switch to maven I am using build.clojure.org
10:18	cemerick	rhickey: There's mechanisms for controlling how and when you get new snapshot builds. shrug
10:18	rhickey	cemerick: documented where?
10:18	Licenser	rhickey: but does not people who have snapshots in their deps help the dev team find real world issues?
10:19	wlangstroth	Licenser: I don't know if using a snapshot with "real world" stuff would be advisable
10:19	_ato	you know we could actually force people to pick a snapshot version, rather than the "latest". Just deleting the maven-metadata.xml from the repo would probably have that effect.
10:19	cemerick	rhickey: http://mojo.codehaus.org/versions-maven-plugin/lock-snapshots-mojo.html
10:19	sexpbot	"Versions Maven Plugin - versions:lock-snapshots"
10:19	Licenser	wlangstroth: don't mistake real world with production
10:19	cemerick	Doesn't help people using lein, but I don't have suggestions there.
10:19	wlangstroth	Licenser: ah, okay
10:20	cemerick	I locked my clojure and contrib snapshots to a build from Tuesday when I saw the big changes coming down the pike.
10:20	rhickey	cemerick: that page is completely meaningless to me
10:20	cemerick	rhickey: I doubt you're its intended target.
10:20	_ato	and to me
10:20	AWizzArd	wlangstroth: snapshots are very similar to the stable stuff. Typically rhickey checks in only things that work. No real issues to use Clojure snapshots in production environments.
10:21	Licenser	but wlangstroth while I trust the dev team a lot, 100 coders see more then 10, it's a fact.
10:21	cemerick	rhickey: But the notion that "maven is a problem" totally ignores that the vast majority of the java world hears "clojure artifacts are in maven" and says "oh, OK", and happily goes about using them without missing a beat.
10:22	rhickey	cemerick: but if the answers to these problems are pages like that, they remain problems
10:22	wlangstroth	AWizzArd: just bad policy is what I mean. If I'm going to use something in production, it won't be based on my inherent trust of Rich (talented as he might be)
10:23	_ato	cemerick: I don't get it. What does this plugin do over just specifying specific snapshot version numbers? eg <version>1.0-20090128.202731-1</version>
10:23	rhickey	cemerick: learn maven to use clojure is just as bad as learn emacs to use clojure, a hurdle
10:23	Licenser	wlangstroth: but using stable isn't much different when the crowd does not use the snapshot builds
10:23	cemerick	rhickey: I humbly submit that that page is well understood outside of this channel.
10:23	_ato	oh.. does it use the one from your local repo?
10:23	mefesto	seems to me that when people depend on SNAPSHOT (bleeding edge) they should expect things to break from time to time. If they need stability, they shouldn't be depending on something that is unstable :)
10:23	Licenser	I mean that Rich releases it as stable is also 'just' him releasing something
10:23	rhickey	cemerick: as are emacs-isms amongst its fans
10:24	cemerick	rhickey: People absolutely don't need to learn maven to use clojure, but if clojure isn't available via mvn repos, then you will simply get far less uptake than you would otherwise.
10:24	cemerick	Those who don't like mvn can download a jar or build from source as they like.
10:24	cemerick	Inventing or proposing to invent yet another system for this problem is the worst possible reaction.
10:25	_ato	heh
10:25	cemerick	_ato: no, it takes the current concrete SNAPSHOT you're depending upon, and writes that into the POM
10:25	rhickey	cemerick: I'm not arguing against providing Clojure in maven repos, I just want a simple story for people who don't want to waste their lives on maven.
10:25	Licenser	cemerick: you don't need to learn is true but if you dont 't lean it you'll experience lots of lots of pain
10:25	wlangstroth	to be honest, as a Clojure newbie, I'm only using maven because it's there, and lein uses it. I find maven ridiculously over-complicated.
10:25	rhickey	cemerick: build clojure from source and use with a lib that has a clojure dep, easy and obvious?
10:25	cemerick	rhickey: pull from github and build or download a jar?
10:25	LauJensen	What is this pain that new-comers feel when digging into Clojure?
10:25	Licenser	wlangstroth: you'll like lein-add then :P
10:26	LauJensen	(re: maven that is)
10:26	mefesto	imo, maven is overkill for many things
10:26	rhickey	cemerick: it wasn't obvious to me how to use even contrib with clojure from source
10:26	Licenser	LauJensen: yes it is
10:26	LauJensen	Licenser: not a yes/no question, WHAT is the pain?
10:26	Licenser	the yes was meant to your response suggestion
10:26	LauJensen	Because just getting started, building contrib (a pretty complex build) and declaring dependencies is not complicated at all, and compared to ant is actually easy
10:27	Licenser	but if we stick to maven we should follow it's rules so no 1.2-master-SNAPSHOT :P
10:27	cemerick	rhickey: SS can speak better about the advantages to using mvn for the contrib build. As for understanding how to use the tool, I'm not sure how to respond there. Just like learning how to use ant, I guess.
10:28	LauJensen	When we first configured clojureql with ant, that was a really painful experience that I wont soon forget
10:28	wlangstroth	cemerick: ant is pretty comfortable for people who are used to configure/make/make install
10:28	cemerick	Are there really people wandering in here and saying "boy, I wish I could use clojure, but this maven business makes it difficult for me"?
10:28	wlangstroth	but are there that many of us?
10:29	cemerick	wlangstroth: right, I think that's the key question
10:29	Licenser	cemerick: you haven't heared my rants about maven yet do you? :P
10:29	cemerick	Licenser: believe me, I hear plenty of rants :-)
10:29	Licenser	good good
10:29	Borkdude	I like lein, but it needs easier Windows support and maybe some more intelligence for deleting old jars
10:29	Borkdude	And Maven, I didn't have to learn it to use clojure, since I have lein
10:29	chouser	for our "production" env we build our own clojure and contrib from specific git sha's.
10:30	pjstadig	there is always a period of adjustment when learning a new language
10:30	pjstadig	whether build tools, or idioms, or syntax
10:30	Licenser	pjstadig: of cause but that periode should focus around the language not about some third party tool
10:30	LauJensen	chouser: which system controls that ?
10:30	cemerick	chouser: we did that until very recently. I got tired of it.
10:30	Licenser	and I've needed more time to get used to maven then to get used to clojure to be frank
10:30	chouser	no unexpected breakage, no need to predict "big changes coming down the pike", no particular need to use a release version of anything.
10:30	wlangstroth	cemerick: haha - certainly maven isn't a barrier to entry
10:31	pjstadig	Licenser: that's the question, which potential new users are a target for clojure, and how can the transition be made simplest for them
10:31	Licenser	wlangstroth: no not to enter, since while you enter you don't see much of it but while passing along there are a few maven pitfals
10:31	chouser	LauJensen: no system controls it. I control it. When I want new features or bug fixes I find sha's for clojure and contrib that work together, check those numbers into our git repo, and rebuild.
10:31	pjstadig	you can't be everything to everyone
10:31	wlangstroth	cemerick: ... but I can understand if people find it a pain in the ass
10:32	LauJensen	chouser: so 'rebuild' means manually running ant/maven ?
10:32	cemerick	wlangstroth: I can too, absolutely.
10:32	chouser	no
10:32	wlangstroth	Licenser: we're just going to get you going, here, aren't we?
10:32	chouser	make :-)
10:32	pjstadig	you can do things different if you want, but you just have to ignore the noise of people complaining that it's different than what they're used to
10:32	Licenser	wlangstroth: yea maven is my new arch nenemis since clojure took java away from me
10:33	fogus	chouser: Sounds like you've adopted my build system. :p
10:33	wlangstroth	Licenser: it's true that it would be nice to have a build/dependency tool that is to maven what Clojure is to Java
10:33	Licenser	nods yes it would
10:33	chouser	my point is not that we have a pleasant and convenient build system. We don't. But as messy as it is, we do have the benefits I listed, and release version numbers don't matter much to us.
10:33	Licenser	and I think lein is a start in that direction, it shields you from a lot maven of maven I think
10:34	pjstadig	i have a theory that there's a philosophical underpinning (or worldview) to each language
10:34	cemerick	wlangstroth: wouldn't that roughly be the lowest-value project in the world? Yet another build system?
10:34	pjstadig	either you have to learn to accept that worldview
10:34	pjstadig	or realize that it's different than yours, irreconcilable, and move on to something else
10:34	Licenser	pjstadig: and you might e right
10:34	pjstadig	i'll write a book
10:34	cemerick	This is a social problem way, way, way more than it is a technical one.
10:34	Licenser	but I din't think maven matches clojures philosophy
10:34	fogus	pjstadig: What's the Ruby worldview?
10:34	wlangstroth	cemerick: you beat me to it (with the addendum that "since I'm not doing it right now, it's not my place to say")
10:35	pjstadig	fogus: still needs more research, but i'd like to do a presentation on it to capclug
10:35	Licenser	fogus: one of them is
10:35	rhickey	cemerick: when someone wants to tie maven to a particular sha/commit from git, how do they find the right maven timestamp to pin it to?
10:35	Licenser	'it does what you expect'
10:35	pjstadig	perl of course is "there's more than one way to do it"
10:35	Licenser	one I like a lot :P and clojure has a lot of that too
10:35	cemerick	rhickey: what do you mean by "tie maven to..."?
10:35	fogus	pjstadig: Would love to see it
10:35	pjstadig	ruby is probably "programming should be a joy" or something like that
10:35	rhickey	cemerick: make maven use
10:35	pjstadig	i think Matz has said something to that effect
10:35	cemerick	oh, I see
10:35	Borkdude	pjstadig: you mean that builds should be immutable in clojure? ;-)
10:36	pjstadig	hehe
10:36	pjstadig	a build is a value
10:36	pjstadig	you need an identity to refer to that value
10:36	pjstadig	git tag "1.2" is identity referring to git hash "3df65" as value
10:36	chouser	nooo
10:36	stuartsierra	rhickey: I've tied maven builds to particular commits by looking at the reports on build.clojure.org
10:37	chouser	that would mean "1.2" could mean something else later.
10:37	_ato	heh there's actually some jars in clojars which have done away with version numbers entirely and just used git hashes, of course that totally breaks maven's version ranges, but still
10:37	cemerick	rhickey: a proper maven deployment process ensures that the SCM tag/sha/rev/ref gets added to the deployed POM. e.g. http://clojars.org/repo/org/clojars/arohner/compojure/0.3.3-SNAPSHOT/compojure-0.3.3-20100308.145053-1.pom
10:37	rhickey	stuartsierra: sounds tedious
10:37	pjstadig	chouser: good point
10:37	stuartsierra	rhickey: mostly I just let it track the current snapshot
10:37	cemerick	Unfortunately, it looks like the clojure and contrib maven deployments don't do that.
10:38	Licenser	hmm but depending on git hashes means also that we depend on git, is that good or bad?
10:38	chouser	is there not a maven plugin to allow fetching and building specific sha's from a git repo?
10:38	rhickey	cemerick: and how do you leverage that? manual search?
10:38	cemerick	chouser: yes, the release plugin. Generally not a userland sort of tool.
10:38	_ato	lein inserts the git hash into poms when it generates them. The new version of the clojars UI I'm working on exposes this
10:38	chouser	cemerick: why's that?
10:38	pjstadig	anyway i do think that using maven as a build tool is somewhat counter to clojure's philosophy, but that's just MHO
10:38	wlangstroth	_ato: sweet!
10:39	cemerick	rhickey: repositories like nexus allow you to search POMs in a variety of ways, including by tag/ref/sha
10:39	Licenser	(inc pjstadig)
10:39	rhickey	cemerick: do we have nexus?
10:39	pjstadig	for one thing, because the vision for clojure is multi platform language, and maven seems to be a very java solution
10:39	cemerick	rhickey: no, the clojure repos are using hudson, which is essentially just apache sitting on top of its local repo, I believe.
10:40	rhickey	sigh
10:40	cemerick	technomancy and I talked about future paths for clojure repos last week. FWIW, sonatype offers free nexus hosting for any open source project
10:41	cemerick	...with a red carpet into central, which is nice
10:41	cemerick	I don't know what he thought of any of that. :-)
10:42	pjstadig	anyway compatibility with maven repos is brilliant
10:42	_ato	this is what nexus looks like, btw, for those unfamiliar with it: http://repository.sonatype.org/
10:42	sexpbot	"Sonatype Nexus Maven Repository Manager"
10:42	pjstadig	but that's something like hosting on the jvm, but not being java
10:42	Leafw	cemerick: after a few months of maven for contrib, can one evaluate the situation? Did it get better than with ant or a simple shell script?
10:43	cemerick	Leafw: the build configuration is absolutely simpler. stuartsierra can talk more about the details.
10:43	_ato	I couldn't find a search by git sha1 option, there is sha1 but I think it refers to just a sha1sum of the jar itself, nothing to do with SCM
10:43	cemerick	Leafw: No such thing as a "simple shell script", BTW, since they're all different.
10:43	LauJensen	_ato: Nexus looks really nice, but searching out Clojure and clicking it returns a 404 :\
10:44	stuartsierra	Leafw, cemerick: Switching the contrib build from Ant to Maven made it dramatically simpler.
10:44	stuartsierra	It also exposed some subtle bugs resulting from implicit assumptions about order of compilation, which were fixed.
10:44	cemerick	it's true, the contrib build has a certain flair now
10:45	Licenser	Leafw: I think with lein things got quite a bit better.
10:45	cemerick	;-)
10:45	chouser	contrib moving to maven did nothing for me. very slightly complicated dev builds and patch testing, added a dep on maven in our production builds.
10:45	stuartsierra	Maven only helps Maven users, it's true.
10:45	LauJensen	chouser: Can you elaborate on how exactly in complicated things?
10:45	rhickey	chouser: ditto
10:45	pjstadig	not meaning to open up closed discussions about maven, and personally i've never really had a horrible time with maven
10:46	rhickey	also it's one ugly build now, lots of nonsense spewed
10:46	_ato	I think the only people it helped were SS and cemerick ;-)
10:46	liebke	I signed up for a sonatype repository for Incanter a while back, after several weeks they still hadn't create it, so I gave up and set up my own. The next day they finally created one for me, but I never ended up using it. I'm not impressed with their responsiveness
10:46	rhickey	no sources to compile..., no test to run
10:46	Leafw	I know very little about mvn, and hence I hesitate to comment beyond a qualitative statement: it doesnt' look simpler. I've seen beginners struggle with mvn. "too much magic" (downloading of jars instead of using local jars), stated a colleague.
10:47	chouser	LauJensen: I had to read the readme, wait for the build to support local clojure, and now have to use mvn and an absolute path instead of a relative one. Not much to complain about, but not any better.
10:47	rhickey	Tests run: 0, Failures: 0, Errors: 0, Skipped: 0
10:47	rhickey	Ran 354 tests containing 1242 assertions.
10:47	rhickey	0 failures, 0 errors.
10:47	Licenser	Well, maven is better then nothing at all. But I am sure it could still get a lot better
10:47	stuartsierra	rhickey: Ugliness of debugging output should not be a consideration.
10:47	cemerick	rhickey: surely that's not a material issue.
10:47	_ato	ha
10:48	_ato	it sure is
10:48	Licenser	stuartsierra: I think it should, just not the first one.
10:48	pjstadig	there's a lot of silliness in our maven build at sonian, but it think it is mostly related to living on snapshots
10:48	_ato	that sort of thing puts off new users
10:48	_ato	there's a reason ruby has had such a high take up
10:48	_ato	because they put energy into usability
10:48	stuartsierra	Ruby is also bug-ridden and dead slow.
10:48	_ato	yes
10:48	_ato	but still popular
10:48	stuartsierra	Speaking as a fan.
10:48	_ato	because of the usability
10:48	Licenser	but tons if people use it
10:49	Licenser	stuartsierra: also thanks for the great posts of swing and clojure :)
10:50	stuartsierra	Licenser: you're welcome
10:51	wlangstroth	Ruby is popular because of rails - easy, generic intranet sites (which are my money-maker, so I can understand the appeal)
10:53	wthidden	Q: How can i test that a symbol references an atom?
10:54	chouser	(instance? clojure.lang.Atom x)
10:54	wthidden	thank you.. I must be brain dead today.
10:55	chouser	hasn't always worked. atom early on didn't have it's own classname, iirc.
10:56	wthidden	good to know.. I do like moving from defstruct -> defrecord there are nice class names
10:57	_ato	rhickey: on one hand you're saying we should not be an island -- we should use existing tools, on the other you're saying these tools are too complex and bring more problems then they solve so lets just do things manually and on the third you're saying things should be "easy" with IDE integration, automation etc. There is a conflict here. Maybe we should work on making maven better. But some of it's usability problems are fundamental
10:57	_ato	to it and we as the very small minority in the inertia of the java ecosystem are not going to be able to change maven. Perhaps that's defeatist thinking, I don't know. Frankly the maven codebase, design and such is the antithesis to simplicity.
10:58	stuartsierra	Dependency and build management are not a simple problems.
10:58	_ato	I agree
10:58	LauJensen	Well, Im not convinced that they need to be complex problems either
10:58	stuartsierra	I aim.
10:59	stuartsierra	am
10:59	chouser	maybe we can use maven in a better way
10:59	cemerick	LauJensen: the history of build systems seems to indicate that they are.
10:59	LauJensen	10 years from now, we'll look back and ponder why we made it so hard
10:59	stuartsierra	chouser: how so?
10:59	LauJensen	cemerick: ditto the history of many other things which are now simple
10:59	stuartsierra	LauJensen: 10 years ago, we were writing Makefiles
11:00	pjstadig	code reuse is not a simple problem
11:00	_ato	I dislike the island argument. You could say the same thing about Java. Instead of using/developing Clojrue shouldn't we all focus our efforts on using or improving Java in better ways?
11:00	chouser	well, I'm not really sufficiently informed to say. What about including git sha's in the builds available on build.clojure.org?
11:00	_ato	Interoperability is important
11:00	pjstadig	my software engineering professor did his PhD on the subject
11:00	wlangstroth	were makefiles so bad? Oh, wait ...
11:00	cemerick	chouser: oh, please no, no.
11:00	_ato	But I dislike decisions to stick with a system that sucks, just because it's popular
11:00	cemerick	version numbers are sequential. SHAs are not.
11:01	_ato	You can still interoperate with it, without being it
11:01	pjstadig	changing interfaces and implementations, and the couplings between modules get sticky pretty quick
11:01	chouser	the version number sequence is a lie
11:01	stuartsierra	cemerick, chouser: yes
11:01	drewr	cemerick: YYYYMMDD-HHMMSS-<SHORTENED SHA> works very well
11:01	chouser	version number builds could be made available as well
11:02	cemerick	_ato: I think it's a matter of what you want to focus on. I've zero interest in making a better build system.
11:02	chouser	but wouldn't this do away with the unlocked snapshot situation that causes undesirable breakage for maven and lein consumers of clojure+contrib?
11:03	stuartsierra	chouser: you can already peg maven builds to particular snapshots
11:03	pjstadig	i think rhickey wanted to stick with the date based snapshot releases, but was forced into the psychological effect of a 1.0 release IIRC
11:03	stuartsierra	you can even automate the process of locking & unlocking snapshots
11:03	LauJensen	stuartsierra: So what exactly are the conditions for breakage ?
11:03	stuartsierra	breaking what?
11:04	cemerick	stuartsierra: I suspect 90% of the folks here would object to the tooling around doing that. I already pointed rhickey @ the appropriate versions plugin page, with bad results.
11:04	stuartsierra	cemerick: Yeah, I know. Ooh, more XML, run away...
11:04	LauJensen	stuartsierra: From what I gather, we have problems when and only when we don't point to specific snapshots, causing incompatabilities, so adding the SHA and exposing those that go well together timewise should solve the issue right?
11:05	chouser	stuartsierra: so why are people complaining about changes in clojure breaking things?
11:05	chouser	oops, lunch. gotta go, sorry.
11:05	cemerick	chouser: because people (ab)use snapshots as actual releases.
11:06	stuartsierra	chouser: what cemerick said
11:06	LauJensen	cemerick: beacuse they cant easily point to shas ?
11:06	chouser	so they're misusing maven?
11:06	cemerick	LauJensen: no one pointing at 1.2-SNAPSHOT cares or knows a whit about SHAs
11:06	cemerick	chouser: yes, or not using maven, or not familiar with the semantics of SNAPSHOT
11:07	LauJensen	I expect mostly the latter
11:07	stuartsierra	yes
11:07	chouser	but you can't lock maven to a git version, right? just a snapshot date?
11:07	stuartsierra	chouser: correct
11:07	cemerick	chouser: insofar as you're using version numbers, yes
11:07	wlangstroth	well yeah, people tagging SNAPSHOT on the end just want the latest to test, don't they?
11:07	chouser	or "don't" rather than "can't" anyway.
11:07	chouser	see, so that's a failure of maven to provide the right way.
11:08	cemerick	if you're absuing SHAs as version numbers, then you've gone astray in a variety of ways anyway
11:08	cemerick	chouser: totally disagree
11:08	chouser	and then an education issue of people using maven in ways other than the nearly-right way.
11:08	chouser	ok, really going now. :-)
11:08	stuartsierra	chouser: Maven predates Git by years.
11:08	stuartsierra	And who says using SHAs as snapshot ID's is correct?
11:08	cemerick	SHAs are not version numbers. Maybe to those few who are building the libs in question, but not to the thousands that use the lib.
11:09	cemerick	stuartsierra: no one, but that's viewed as convenient and obvious.
11:09	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I think it sounds like a good idea, and a solution to the problem
11:09	_ato	snaphot dates aren't version numbers in that sense either
11:09	pjstadig	sha's as snapshot id's seem more correct to me because it's about the content, not when the build happened to have been done
11:09	cemerick	_ato: they are sequential, and the relationship between two concrete snapshot versions is obvious.
11:09	LauJensen	It just gives me a way to get a 'stable' feel out of a current snapshot
11:10	LauJensen	cemerick: yea thats the one problem with hashs, then dont sync well
11:10	_ato	code isn't sequential though when you have branches
11:10	wlangstroth	didn't someone above post YYYYMMDD-HHMMSS-sha for a low-trouble solution?
11:10	_ato	so there's a semantic mismatch there
11:11	_ato	which might have been Rich's point about subversion
11:11	LauJensen	wlangstroth: yea, but how do you look at clojure's hash, and contribs, and then figure out which 2 go together?
11:11	_ato	I'm not sure I entirely understoof that
11:11	cemerick	_ato: Very true. But again, mvn is all about artifacts for distribution, whereas these experimental branches are decidedly not meant to be widely distributed.
11:11	wlangstroth	LauJensen: fair enough.
11:11	LauJensen	cemerick: They need to be distributed though
11:11	drewr	LauJensen: each pom specifies the dependency's version it expects
11:12	cemerick	LauJensen: Perhaps, but when there's a major divergence semantically (1.1-new vs. 1.1-master), those both shouldn't be referred to as 1.1-*
11:12	_ato	I think it would be really nice to have no snapshots and instead have more frequent releases, but we can't have more frequent releases because we want releases to be backwards compatible and it takes time to stabilize features
11:13	stuartsierra	_ato: yes
11:13	dnolen	so there's no such thing as 1.2.0-master-STABLE ? would it be possible to create this automatically based on whether the current build passes all tests, and all the tests for a couple of popular Clojure libraries as well? then everyone would stop using SNAPSHOT. and noone has to maintain it by hand.
11:13	stuartsierra	dnolen: but the APIs are not stabel
11:13	cemerick	dnolen: that's called a release :-)
11:13	LauJensen	cemerick: Agreed, but 'new' doesnt tell me anything, then it should be '1.1-dev-0.1'
11:13	stuartsierra	'new' was a bad branch name
11:13	_ato	the reason everyone's using snapshots is because there are features they really desire that haven't been released
11:14	cemerick	LauJensen: I think that would still get caught up in the versioning range that stuarthalloway got tripped up with.
11:14	wlangstroth	LauJensen: that was the original issue, wasn't it? 1.1-dev-0.1.1, etc
11:14	pjstadig	i don't think one needs to apologize for breaking a build that lives on snapshots
11:15	cemerick	pjstadig: uh-huh
11:15	pjstadig	however the fact that so many people seem to be living on snapshots might indicate a more fundamental problem
11:15	pjstadig	release early, release often
11:15	pjstadig	:-/
11:15	cemerick	pjstadig: nah, you can't pin that behaviour on the authors of a lib.
11:15	pjstadig	but then again you don't want to release features that have a high probability of changing
11:15	_ato	perhaps we should throw away snapshots and instead have frequent, properly numbered development releases which aren't guranteeed backwards-compatible
11:15	_ato	eg an odd / even numbering scheme
11:16	stuartsierra	_ato: I've wondered about that too
11:16	cemerick	_ato: you think people will understand that better than an all-caps SNAPSHOT qualifier? ;-)
11:16	wlangstroth	_ato: what, like the linux kernel?
11:16	cemerick	The funny/sad thing is that there isn't actually a problem to be solved here.
11:17	wlangstroth	cemerick: hehe - we've come full circle
11:17	_ato	a social problem is still a problem
11:17	_ato	a problem of education is still a problem
11:17	stuartsierra	Programmers can't solve social problems.
11:17	cemerick	Right. RTFM is a meta issue.
11:17	stuartsierra	And should be banned from trying.
11:18	wlangstroth	haha - may I quote you?
11:18	LauJensen	stuartsierra: cemerick: How do I target a specific contrib/clojure pair using maven ?
11:18	wlangstroth	(both)
11:18	_ato	wlangstroth: yes. Interesting the linux kernel earlier had an odd/even model and has now moved to just regular releases
11:18	_ato	but part of the reason they can now do regular releases is they're a mature project
11:18	cemerick	LauJensen: Use concrete snapshot version numbers, like 1.2.0-20100427.160337-80
11:18	cemerick	(which is what I'm using for contrib right now)
11:18	stuartsierra	which you can find on build.clojure.org
11:19	LauJensen	ok, and both repos carry the exact same suffix?
11:19	stuartsierra	no
11:19	stuartsierra	but the pages detailing the builds are cross-linked
11:19	_ato	LauJensen: the same applies to lein and all the other tools. Just don't use "-SNAPSHOT" and you'll be happy
11:19	cemerick	or, you find the version of cloure you want, note the timestamp, and the take the version of contrib that immediately follows that timestamp
11:20	cemerick	stuartsierra's way is surely easier tho
11:20	LauJensen	stuartsierra: looking at build.clojure.org its not clear which version goes with which
11:20	stuartsierra	e.g. http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure-contrib/101/ (build #101) contains link to clojure build #111
11:20	sexpbot	"clojure-contrib #101 [Hudson]"
11:21	LauJensen	Ah like that
11:21	LauJensen	Okay - That doesn't seem very tricky actually
11:21	LauJensen	Thanks guys :)
11:21	stuartsierra	you're welcome
11:22	LauJensen	Now if only we could figure out a way to prevent Halloway from breaking it, we'd be all set for primetime :)
11:22	stuartsierra	heh
11:22	cemerick	ut-oh, that sounded remarkably like a maven success story ;-)
11:22	LauJensen	(j/k stuarthalloway)
11:22	stuarthalloway	I am breaking all sorts of stuff today
11:22	stuarthalloway	https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/328-don-t-assume-chunked-seq-will-alway-stay-chunked
11:22	sexpbot	"#328 - don't assume chunked seq will alway stay chunked (Test) \| Clojure \| Assembla"
11:22	stuartsierra	cemerick: It would be nice if we could get Hudson to report the actual SNAPSHOT version number on the build page.
11:23	wlangstroth	cemerick: that was a paper-and-pencil success story
11:23	cemerick	wlangstroth: that was a joke, there, son! :-)
11:24	cemerick	stuartsierra: Maybe there's a plugin. I'm not up on my hudson/maven integration fu.
11:24	stuartsierra	me neither
11:25	wlangstroth	cemerick: yes. yes it was.
11:25	LauJensen	But I wonder why this turns into a maven discussion on every turn - This isnt a build system out there which can solve this for us
11:25	cemerick	LauJensen: bingo
11:26	cemerick	That's why it's a social problem.
11:26	LauJensen	Of course I could make an emacs-plugin which solves it quite easily..... :P
11:26	wlangstroth	friggin' emacs
11:27	LauJensen	Gotta jet, good weekend to all
11:27	wlangstroth	poverty? emacs has a plug-in for that. World peace? yup.
11:27	stuartsierra	CTAN, CPAN, Rubygems, Eggs, PEAR, Maven, apt: I have never seen a software distribution system that doesn't cause aggravation.
11:28	avar	Usually it's not the fault of the distribution system
11:28	stuartsierra	misuse, then?
11:28	avar	unfamiliarity, blaming the inevitable broken package on the distribution system
11:29	avar	confusing a sucky distribution system with one sucky client, etc :)
11:29	wlangstroth	stuartsierra: this is starting to feel like "you remind me of a man. What man? The man with the power ..."
11:29	stuartsierra	true enough
11:29	stuartsierra	anyway, I'm tired of rehashing this argument. later
11:32	rhickey	I'm not arguing against maven, I'm arguing for fans of maven to please solve the Clojure snapshot problem for non-maven experts, in a way consumable without maven expertise
11:34	stuarthalloway	rhickey: please approve 328
11:34	rhickey	stuarthalloway: done
11:38	stuarthalloway	...and pushed
11:40	Licenser	do destract you people from your worries: http://xkcd.com/734/
11:40	sexpbot	"xkcd: Outbreak"
11:40	patrickdlogan	clojure's reflection seems to be selecting the more general overloaded method with an Object argument rather than the more specific one with a subclass of Object. Can I force it to use the more specific one, e.g. with metadata?
11:43	rhickey	patrickdlogan: you should be able to, yes
11:48	arkahn	a beginner question about idiomatic clojure - why do this: (map (fn [_] (ref (struct cell 0 0))) (range 80)) to create a bunch of structs instead of some other looping mechanism? (taken from Rich's ant prog written a couple or so years ago)
11:49	arkahn	sorry - this instead: (apply vector (map (fn [_] (ref (struct cell 0 0))) (range dim)) ))
11:50	arkahn	with a (def dim 80)
11:51	arkahn	... or maybe I just need to go off and learn more functional programming style ; )
11:52	patrickdlogan	rhickey: great - thx, worked like a charm.
11:53	hiredman	arkahn: what other looping mechanism?
11:54	Chousuke	arkahn: why do you need a vector of refs instead of a ref containing a vector?
11:54	hiredman	to be fair I think I would prefer (take dim (repeatedly #(ref (struct cell 0 0))))
11:54	Chousuke	arkahn: generally speaking, the more refs you have, the more trouble there will be managing all of them :)
11:55	arkahn	Chousuke: the refs were needed as part of a larger example on concurrency - the rest of the program (and programming) goal call for refs
11:56	arkahn	hiredman: that's the thing. I don't know what else it would be, it just didn't seem as "natural" as perhaps something else, but I'm still at the beginning stages of thinking in clojure to know what that something else might be (hope that makes sense)
11:56	Chousuke	anyway, I'd go with (vec (for [n (range 80)] (ref (struct cell 0 0))))
11:57	Chousuke	but there are many options
11:57	hiredman	arkahn: "loops" in clojure are almost always expressed as opertaions over a sequence of values
11:57	arkahn	I guess those two examples look better to me - thank you
11:57	hiredman	not loops
11:57	hiredman	clojure has a while, but it is not a loop
11:57	arkahn	right - I agree there
11:57	Chousuke	yeah. explicit looping is nonidiomatic
11:57	hiredman	for is not a loop
11:58	Chousuke	while is a loop but it's not very useful unless you have side-effects :P
11:59	hiredman	clojure has a 'loop' which is strictly speaking a loop
11:59	DeusExPikachu	the character ! is used to denote functions that change state and the character ? for predicates, anyone use characters to denote I/O?
11:59	hiredman	but if the jvm had tail calls it wouldn't need to be
12:00	Chousuke	DeusExPikachu: ! works for IO too
12:00	Chousuke	DeusExPikachu: though it might be redundant if the IOness is obvious
12:01	hiredman	,(doc io!)
12:01	clojurebot	"([& body]); If an io! block occurs in a transaction, throws an IllegalStateException, else runs body in an implicit do. If the first expression in body is a literal string, will use that as the exception message."
12:02	arkahn	it seems like clojure is more "nuanced" and varied as far as how a person can accomplish a given thing (e.g. looping). It's probably the most difficult language I've ever tried to learn, out of c, perl, python, javascript, java, etc.
12:02	Chousuke	arkahn: it's probably just the most different
12:02	Chousuke	of those languages, javascript is probably closest
12:03	arkahn	Chousuke: yeah ; ) I do like the way it forces me to think differently. And in no way do I want to try to make the circular clojure fit in a imperative square hole (?) (I think that makes sense)
12:03	Chousuke	heh
12:03	DeusExPikachu	in symbol names, what's + used for?
12:04	Chousuke	like +foo+?
12:04	DeusExPikachu	Chousuke, yeah
12:04	Chousuke	it's a CL convention for constants
12:04	DeusExPikachu	k
12:04	Chousuke	largely redundant in Clojure
12:04	Chousuke	just use "foo"
12:05	replaca	stuarthalloway: should we have :added at the namespace level as well? (Autodoc will support it)
12:06	hiredman	the var stuff in the json contrib api index is still blank
12:07	replaca	hiredman: yeah, it's on the list - I've gotten sidetracked with some other stuff
12:07	replaca	sorry about the delay
12:07	hiredman	oh no, if you are busy you are busy
12:09	replaca	hiredman: just a short push to get pprint into 1.2 and a couple of other 1.2 things
12:10	replaca	hiredman: but autodoc is still in a bit of disarray from the switch to multi-branch (in particular, it's not completely auto at the moment)
12:10	hiredman	ok
12:12	wlangstroth	arohner: it's a slippery slope
12:12	arohner	my project.clj has a :dev-dependency of [swank-clojure "1.2-SNAPSHOT"] and [lein-swank "1.1.0"]. lein downloads two versions of swank-clojure.jar
12:12	replaca	arohner: try using ant, then you'll be in two hells at once
12:12	wlangstroth	haha
12:13	arohner	if I manually delete the older swank-clojure, everything works
12:13	arohner	if not, slime is broken
12:13	arohner	but lein-swank doesn't need to be updated at all for swank-clojure 1.2, except to specify its dependency
12:14	hiredman	arohner: you can remove the explicit dependency, or you can tell lein to ignore swank from lein-swank
12:14	arohner	hiredman: how do I do the second?
12:14	arohner	oh, :exclusions
12:15	_ato	[leiningen/lein-swank "1.1.0" :exclusions [swank-clojure]]
12:15	_ato	yep
12:16	arohner	hiredman, _ato: thanks
12:17	arohner	is it ever a good idea to have two versions of the same library in your classpath?
12:18	cemerick	nope
12:19	wlangstroth	arohner: that's like hitting yourself
12:19	arohner	I'm wondering if lein should detect that, and warn / throw
12:20	replaca	wlangstroth: got your message on github (re: cheatsheets). I like it. We'll discuss it in more depth in a week or two. Ping me again if I forget.
12:21	wlangstroth	replace: cool, thanks
12:21	wlangstroth	replaca: ^
12:25	replaca	wlangstroth: np
12:26	Licenser	hmm can I use macros in a doto?
12:27	hiredman	depends on what macros expand to
12:27	hiredman	,(doto 1 (-> .toString println))
12:27	clojurebot	1
12:27	Licenser	ah okay so they get expanded before the stuff gets inserted
12:27	clojurebot	1
12:27	hiredman	nope
12:28	Licenser	ah okay then I should be able to put the macros in as long as they take the object as the first argument :)
12:28	hiredman	just like any other use of doto
12:28	Licenser	okay coolish :D
12:38	stuarthalloway	replaca: added at namespace level sounds good to me
12:38	abedra	technomancy: I ended up just sending a pull request over yesterday on -stable for the lein test exit code fixes
12:42	replaca	cool - I just implemented the autodoc side code
12:42	replaca	(or most of it)
13:03	cemerick	yuck, (str record-instance) returns classname@id
13:04	cemerick	is the pr behaviour going to get roped into defrecord's .toString()?
13:10	cemerick	ouch; is this expected? https://gist.github.com/31c64ee18cb631e3b54e
13:11	cemerick	I presume that result is coming from the map impl in the generated record class, but...
13:12	cemerick	rhickey: ^^
13:16	headius	cemerick: what's defrecord btw?
13:16	cemerick	headius: http://clojure.org/datatypes
13:17	headius	interesting
13:18	headius	is that something you could feed to e.g. Hibernate as a model's data object?
13:18	cemerick	hrm, perhaps
13:18	cemerick	might need a few annotations, though you can do that now too
13:19	cemerick	heh, it gets even sillier: https://gist.github.com/31c64ee18cb631e3b54e :-P
13:20	Chousuke	... what?
13:22	krumholt	,(doc defrecord)
13:22	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
13:22	krumholt	,(clojure-version)
13:22	clojurebot	"1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
13:23	headius	defrecord seems to fit the niche of Struct in ruby
13:23	headius	I wonder if we should be making Struct construct a real Java class
13:29	chouser	ha! I lied. Or rather, I was only talking about work when I said "production"
13:29	chouser	the clojure-log is out of date. Caused by: java.lang.IllegalAccessError: reductions is not public
13:30	leifw	argh clj-processing keeps crashing X
13:30	leifw	this is infuriating
13:30	chouser	there, delete one line, all fixed.
13:30	rhudson	chouser: you fixed clojure-log?
13:31	chouser	rhudson: yes
13:31	rhudson	... or the defrecord issue?
13:31	rhudson	thanks!
13:31	chouser	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/ is running agin
13:31	chouser	again
13:31	sexpbot	"#clojure log - Apr 30 2010"
13:35	stuarthalloway	headius: if you make a real java class, look to the classloader madness you will need to do
13:36	headius	we generate java classes all the time at runtime right now
13:36	headius	most ruby programs don't ever get compiled, but they eventually end jit to bytecode in jruby
13:37	stuarthalloway	p.s. it is evil to combine Hibernate and Clojure
13:38	stuarthalloway	it is like trying to get somewhere by driving ten miles north then ten miles south
13:42	rhudson	stuarthalloway: Agree on Hibernate -- why use ORM when you can use relations directly? -- but it is nice to abstract the dialect differences between SQLs. What fits Clojure better?
13:43	stuarthalloway	clj-record?
13:43	stuarthalloway	nosql?
13:44	cemerick	hibernate and such is just The Way It Is in a lot of shops, and using clojure in those environments is just as much of a win (in relative terms) as it is elsewhere.
13:44	rhudson	"Requirement: persistence must use MySQL, SQLServer, and Oracle"
13:44	cemerick	Of course, for greenfield stuff, you're a little crazy to choose it.
13:51	cemerick	Hrm, no takers/opinions on this? https://gist.github.com/31c64ee18cb631e3b54e
13:52	rhudson	cemerick: it's those specific field names, right?
13:52	cemerick	rhudson: no, I'll bet any no-arg method name will do it
13:52	rhudson	Looks like implementation methods are being exposed
13:53	somnium	its a feature! name your field :seq for free functionality
13:53	rhudson	cemerick: 2 is the number of fields (size of record)
13:53	cemerick	yeah, I know
13:53	cemerick	I have to assume it's a bug.
13:53	rhudson	I betcha the impl has a getSize() method
13:53	rhudson	yea
13:53	remleduff	What happens if you try to make field named "equals" ?
13:54	cemerick	remleduff: works as expected. This only affects fields with the same name as no-arg methods.
13:54	cemerick	(:blah record) probably gets expanded into (.blah ^RecordType record) or somesuch
13:55	rhudson	There must be only a few hundred of those in core...
14:07	cemerick	I'd say the issue is here: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_deftype.clj#L181
14:10	cemerick	I'm not clear on the semantics of the lookup thunks, but It looks like getLookupThunk should return nil for any field with the same name as any no-arg methods defined by the defrecord's implemented interfaces.
14:27	stuarthalloway	cemerick: do file a ticket on this!
14:27	cemerick	stuarthalloway: already got a patch; would you like to take a look before I post it?
14:28	stuarthalloway	ok
14:28	chouser	I think getLookupThunk returning nil will cause the call-site caching to fail
14:28	chouser	(and fall back to slower lookup)
14:28	cemerick	stuarthalloway: https://gist.github.com/9d1769237b312eb49723
14:28	cemerick	chouser: doesn't it have to in this case?
14:29	cemerick	(. object field) will always invoke the field method, if it exists
14:30	cemerick	there's the mapcat going on over the base-fields, in which case what I just pasted would go into the body of the mapcat fn, but I'm unclear as to how returning a seq from getLookupThunk can work...
14:30	chouser	well, slow is certainly better than the behavior you're seeing. :-)
14:31	stuarthalloway	the speed impact is only on map lookup, right?
14:31	cemerick	Yeah, I'm pretty well confused by that mapcat in general.
14:33	chouser	grr. I shouldn't look at this right now.
14:33	cemerick	stuarthalloway: There won't be a speed issue at all one way or the other (as far as one can eliminate a speed issue given a no-arg method and a field of the same name).
14:34	chouser	cemerick: does your patch set ~'k to nil when there are any no-arg methods in the class?
14:34	stuarthalloway	cemerick: go ahead and submit it, I will discuss with Rich
14:34	stuarthalloway	it will need (and get) some tests but I don't have time to wrap my head around this right now
14:34	slyphon	is the general use-case for pre/post conditions be that you'll run with assertions enabled during test/dev and off in production?
14:35	cemerick	OK, so my patch seems to do good -- (.getLookupThunk (Foo. 42 :b 'c) :blah) for (defrecord Foo [size seq blah]) returns a reified thunk, but (.getLookupThunk :seq) doesn't.
14:35	cemerick	chouser: no, ~'k is nil only when ~'k is of the same name as the no-arg methods implemented in the class.
14:36	chouser	cemerick: ok.
14:36	cemerick	I'm still confused by how the mapcat yields a single reify, though.
14:36	chouser	the mapcat generates the body of the case
14:36	cemerick	oh, shite, didn't see the ~@ there
14:37	cemerick	in that case, I should just filter the base-fields seq
14:37	_nj	Hi all!, I am new to clojure/compojure, I have a question. I noticed that the run-server function is missing in the new refactored compojure, has it been deprecated? Is run-jetty the only option now? Thanks!
14:38	chouser	cemerick: ok, yeah, that would make sense, if the goal is to simply skip this performanace feature for conflicting keys
14:38	cemerick	chouser: good, this makes sense now :-)
14:40	chouser	other solutions I can imagine include: munging some record fields and the keywords to match, adding some syntax to the . form to sepcifically get fields instead of no-arg methods....
14:41	cemerick	the latter is a general need elsewhere, too
14:41	cemerick	rare, but I've seen it needed
14:44	slyphon	chouser: um, where can i report a bug on thejoyofclojure?
14:45	slyphon	s/on/in/
14:51	cemerick	_nj: Sorry, I've been sticking with the v0.3.x builds
14:51	cemerick	Maybe there's something in ring that is more general than run-jetty?
14:53	kencausey	slyphon: http://www.manning-sandbox.com/forum.jspa?forumID=624
14:53	sexpbot	"Manning Forums: Joy of Clojure"
14:53	slyphon	ah
14:53	slyphon	kencausey: thanks
14:58	_nj	cemerick: Thanks, I'll look into ring
15:09	leifw	I'm getting an IllegalArgumentException when I try to use clojure-hadoop
15:09	leifw	it says "no method in multimethod 'conf' for dispatch value: :input-format"
15:10	leifw	but this is clearly defined in the library
15:10	leifw	there is a (defmethod conf :input-format ...)
15:11	leifw	alternatively, leiningen has not been recompiling my classes unless I say they're main classes, which is really annoying, and if it's not compiling config.clj, I could see this being the problem, so does anyone know how to get leiningen to compile clojure files properly?
15:13	technomancy	leifw: should be able to use the :namespaces key in project.clj
15:13	leifw	yup, found that just now, thanks
15:14	technomancy	but that is a lousy name; it will be renamed in 1.2
15:14	leifw	cool
15:14	technomancy	renamed in a non-breaking way (with an old alias)
15:14	cemerick	chouser: I'm leaving the patch as-is for now -- gtarget doesn't contain the default interface impls at the time that base-fields is mapcat'd, so I'm not sure how to get the full set of methods at that point.
15:15	leifw	technomancy: how much do you know about clojure-hadoop though?
15:16	leifw	I am having the most terrible time getting it to run on the cluster
15:16	technomancy	that about jives with my experience with hadoop
15:16	leifw	ugh
15:16	technomancy	it's a lot of work to get running correctly, and even then it doesn't provide a lot of value
15:16	technomancy	unless you're using HDFS, which is pretty impressive
15:16	leifw	words of true encouragement :-/
15:16	leifw	we are
15:17	leifw	so that's useful I guess
15:17	leifw	YES IT IS DEFINED YOU BASTARD
15:17	leifw	ARGH
15:17	technomancy	sorry =(
15:17	leifw	haha that's ok
15:17	leifw	thanks for the help
15:33	slyphon	in a macro, if ~'blah is the idiom to capture a symbol, what does ~() mean?
15:33	cemerick	stuarthalloway: FYI: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/329
15:33	sexpbot	"#329 - Fix defrecord keyword lookup on fields matching no-arg methods (Test) \| Clojure \| Assembla"
15:33	cemerick	I keyed it to 1.2, which I presume is appropriate. :-)
15:34	chouser	slyphon: unquote the result of the evaluating the ()
15:34	stuarthalloway	cemerick: yes, thanks
15:34	chouser	, `[1 2 ~(+ 10 5) 3 4]
15:34	clojurebot	[1 2 15 3 4]
15:34	slyphon	ah
15:47	stuartsierra	leifw: clojure-hadoop was written (by me) for Hadoop 0.18.3 and has not been updated since (nor will it be)
15:47	stuartsierra	If you want to use Hadoop, make sure you know the Java APIs first.
15:48	stuartsierra	Then it's not too hard to add some Clojure.
16:21	danlarkin	scatterbrained: is there a function that does #(first (remove %1 %2))?
16:22	Chousuke	,((comp first remove) nil? [nil nil 1 nil])
16:22	clojurebot	1
16:24	Chousuke	I'm not usually a fan of pointfree style in clojure but in this case that works pretty neatly
16:27	hiredman	:let in for is pretty handy
16:35	chouser	,(some #(when-not (nil? %) %) [nil nil 1 nil])
16:36	clojurebot	1
16:48	livingston	if I have a lot of strings to concatenate together (and it's going to happen a lot, so I'd rater avoid a thing that concatenates the first two string, then reallocates to add the third etc.) is (str x y z ..) the function that I want?
16:50	rsh	if ref's can manage multiple locations (which means it can handle single location), then what is the purpose of having atoms?
16:56	stuarthalloway	livingston: str uses StringBuilder internally, you should be good
16:56	stuarthalloway	,(source str)
16:56	clojurebot	Source not found
16:56	stuarthalloway	,(use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
16:56	clojurebot	nil
16:57	stuarthalloway	,(source str)
16:57	Chousuke	rsh: atoms are simpler
16:57	clojurebot	Source not found
16:57	Chousuke	rsh: they're also not coordinated in any way
16:57	livingston	stuarthalloway: thanks yeah I looked at the source and saw that, and I though StringBuilder's were efficient but my knowledge of what's the most efficient way to do something in Java is sorely dated.
16:58	livingston	I appreciate it.
16:58	Chousuke	str's probably going to be the most efficient way of concatenating strings. so long as you don't use it with reduce :)
17:00	slyphon	w00t!
17:01	livingston	so if I'm not building my string at compile time, nor know how many substrings are going to be concatenated, I should then apply str to a list of substrings?
17:07	slyphon	is it common to use 'do' to chain together recursive expansions of a macro's arguments?
17:12	Borkdude	why do I need the # in (meta #'==) again?
17:13	slyphon	it's a reader macro
17:13	slyphon	#' is to access the Var
17:13	slyphon	aiui
17:13	slyphon	'== is just (symbol "==")
17:14	slyphon	#'== means "give me the value of var represented by (symbol "==")"
17:14	slyphon	i think
17:15	Borkdude	ah ok, so with (meta '==) i would ask for the metadata of a symbol, right
17:15	arohner	Borkdude: right. And symbols don't have metadata, but vars do.
17:16	Borkdude	and symbols are just stupid things in clojure
17:16	slyphon	they're more like "labels"
17:16	slyphon	or names-of-interesting-things
17:17	Borkdude	I was thinking of property lists in CL, it confused me a little
17:17	mmarczyk	actually the ' in #' has nothing to do with the stand-alone '
17:18	Borkdude	So if i just remember that symbols are jjust labels with no further properties I should be fine in clojure?
17:18	mmarczyk	#'foo expands to (var foo), var is a special form and doesn't need quoting
17:18	slyphon	mmarczyk: oh?
17:18	mmarczyk	the effect is the same, though
17:18	slyphon	ah
17:18	slyphon	my mistake
17:19	mmarczyk	what about that do and chaining stuff in macros?
17:19	mmarczyk	not sure I understand that one
17:19	slyphon	ah
17:19	mmarczyk	btw, symbols can have metadata
17:19	slyphon	one sec
17:19	mmarczyk	in fact that's how type hints work
17:19	mmarczyk	{:tag foo} is attached to the symbol by the reader
17:20	mmarczyk	then the compiler uses that
17:20	Borkdude	i see
17:20	mmarczyk	if the symbol happens to occur as a name in a def* form
17:20	mmarczyk	then that metadata gets copied onto the Var
17:20	mmarczyk	so that it's accessible at runtime
17:21	mmarczyk	since the fact that some metadata is attached to a symbol at one time doesn't mean it's going to stay there when "the same" (in the sense of =) symbol is encountered later
17:21	mmarczyk	,(meta '#^foo foo)
17:21	clojurebot	{:tag foo}
17:22	mmarczyk	,(meta 'foo)
17:22	clojurebot	nil
17:22	mmarczyk	iirc, anything implementing clojure.lang.IObj can have metadata attached
17:22	slyphon	it needs IMeta i think
17:23	slyphon	mmarczyk: https://gist.github.com/d6a6dabb9c0a85e154c2
17:23	slyphon	now, that works
17:23	mmarczyk	actually IObj seems to be needed for attaching data, while IMeta suffices for (meta ...) :-)
17:23	slyphon	i just wasn't sure if it was bad form, having those nested 'do's
17:23	slyphon	ah
17:23	mmarczyk	looing now :-)
17:24	mmarczyk	looking, I mean
17:24	slyphon	ah, yes
17:25	Borkdude	eh, what does (meta '#^foo foo) mean?
17:26	mmarczyk	slyphon: nothing wrong with that code to my eye :-)
17:26	slyphon	ah, good
17:26	slyphon	:)
17:26	mmarczyk	you could probably put the second form from the do inside the let
17:26	mmarczyk	but if it's more trouble to write it this way
17:26	slyphon	ah, that let is autogenerated by the doto
17:26	mmarczyk	there's no real reason to do that
17:26	mmarczyk	yeah
17:26	slyphon	hoorj!
17:27	mmarczyk	:-)
17:27	slyphon	can you only have one `() form in a macro?
17:27	slyphon	i mean, at the top level
17:28	mmarczyk	Borkdude: '#^foo foo means (quote #^foo foo)
17:28	mmarczyk	#^foo foo means the symbol foo with metadata of {:tag foo} attached at read time
17:28	mmarczyk	(that foo in the metadata is also a symbol)
17:29	mmarczyk	then quote returns the symbol unchanged with the metadata intact
17:29	livingston	slyphon: I can't tell exactly what that macro is doing, but why do you need the nested do?
17:29	mmarczyk	and meta returns it (meaning the metadata)
17:29	livingston	can't you get away with (do (let ... ) (let ...) nil) ?
17:29	mmarczyk	slyphon: macro needs to return a single form, yes
17:29	slyphon	ah
17:30	slyphon	that's the reason
17:30	mmarczyk	hi livingston
17:30	slyphon	livingston: it's only recursive because i'm not generating the let* there
17:30	mmarczyk	re: (apply str seq-of-strings), I think that's perfectly fine (and definately reduce would be the wrong way to do it)
17:30	slyphon	that's the result of a macroexpand-all
17:30	slyphon	so the let* is because of doto
17:31	livingston	oh ok, usually sos you know what your macro is doing exactly you just look at macroexpand-1
17:31	alexyk	can lein work with 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT?
17:32	Borkdude	mmarczyk, I get it, tnx
17:32	technomancy	alexyk: it should, if not please let me know
17:33	alexyk	technomancy: I probably messed up lots of things; I edited bin/lein to refer to the clojure jar which is teh trunk, and now lein deps spits out: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/io__init.class or clojure/contrib/io.clj on classpath:
17:33	slyphon	mmarczyk: i didn't know about the one-form rule
17:35	arohner	slyphon: think about it. If you have a macro call in one branch of an 'if' statement, and the macro expands to multiple forms ...
17:35	slyphon	make sense
17:35	slyphon	er, makes
17:35	alexyk	ah, is it because clojure-contrib's jar is clojure-contrib-1.2.0-SNAPSHOT, without master?
17:36	technomancy	alexyk: probably so
17:36	alexyk	whoever devilishly differs in contrib from clojure proper by omitting -master-, has his karma diminished every time a programmer gets a file not found error
17:37	alexyk	technomancy: but, my lein deps doesn't even get to that.
17:37	alexyk	I simply edited the CLOJURE_JAR in bin/lein; why would it want contrib then? is contrib configurable?
17:41	livingston	what's the easiest way to test if a given symbol is in a given namespace?
17:42	livingston	e.g. that 'ex/a is in the namespace ex
17:43	livingston	.getNamespace returns a string it'd be nice if there was a non-string way
17:44	Borkdude	(:ns (meta #'a))
17:45	Borkdude	Returns the namespace of var a
17:45	livingston	I don't have vars just symbols
17:46	mmarczyk	,(contains? (ns-map 'clojure.core) '+)
17:46	clojurebot	true
17:46	mmarczyk	,(contains? (ns-imports 'clojure.core) 'Integer)
17:46	clojurebot	true
17:46	Borkdude	then use ' instead of #'
17:47	tcepsa	livingston: I believe there's a way to see what's bound in a given namespace and then you could see whether the symbol you're curious about is in that--yeah, what mmarczyk said.
17:47	mmarczyk	:-)
17:47	mmarczyk	,(keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core))
17:47	clojurebot	(sorted-map read-line re-pattern keyword? val chunked-seq? compile-path max-key list* ns-aliases booleans the-ns == chunk-buffer longs special-form-anchor shorts instance? syntax-symbol-anchor format sequential? fn? empty dorun time remove-method gensym not= 3 unchecked-multiply doseq bit-or aset-byte if-not hash-set add-watch unchecked-dec some nil? string? boolean-array second letfn keys for 2 long-array pop-thread-b
17:47	livingston	that's also a different problem - that tells me if a namespace contains a particular symbol...
17:47	mmarczyk	ouch, sorry, didn't think how long that would be
17:47	mmarczyk	but clojurebot luckily truncates stuff
17:48	mmarczyk	well, a symbol, as such, is not bound to any namespace
17:48	livingston	... I want to know if the symbol I happen to have my hands on is qualified in a specific namespace eg. the "anon" ns
17:48	mmarczyk	there's no "interning" as in Common Lisp
17:48	_nj	how do I find out the type of a symbol?
17:49	mmarczyk	I mean, there is presumably string interning, though I can't say I read actual code to do that in Clojure
17:49	livingston	I just want to have (= (the-namespace-of 'ex/a) (create-ns 'ex))
17:49	mmarczyk	oh, do you mean
17:49	mmarczyk	(the-ns 'user)
17:49	mmarczyk	,(the-ns 'user)
17:49	clojurebot	#<Namespace user>
17:49	livingston	,(doc the-ns)
17:49	mmarczyk	,(the-ns (.getNamespace 'foo/bar))
17:49	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
17:50	clojurebot	"([x]); If passed a namespace, returns it. Else, when passed a symbol, returns the namespace named by it, throwing an exception if not found."
17:50	arohner	livingston: (ns-resolve 'your-ns 'symbol)
17:50	arohner	?
17:50	livingston	yes!
17:50	livingston	thank you
17:50	mmarczyk	livingston: which was it then?
17:50	arohner	livingston: that will return the var, or nil
17:50	arohner	(ns-resolve 'clojure.core 'map)
17:50	arohner	,(ns-resolve 'clojure.core 'map)
17:50	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/map
17:51	arohner	,(ns-resolve 'clojure.core 'bogus)
17:51	clojurebot	nil
17:51	Borkdude	tnx for making my train journey enjoyable, gtg now
17:52	livingston_	(can I tell you how much I don't like this web client randomly dropping me)
17:52	livingston_	I don't know what I missed but I was looking for the-ns
17:52	mmarczyk	livingston_: oh :-)
17:53	mmarczyk	good
17:53	livingston_	except that will barf when the ns hasn't been explictly created, even though you can quote symbols in ns that aren't explicitly in existanct
17:53	livingston_	so that is not quite good either
17:54	mmarczyk	well, that's a problem of the design I'd say
17:54	tcepsa	livingston_: But if you know that the ns hasn't been created, then you know that no symbol is bound within that ns, right?
17:54	mmarczyk	if you're going to ask if a namespace which doesn't exist is equal to another
17:54	arohner	,(ns-resolve 'bogus 'foo)
17:54	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No namespace: bogus found
17:54	livingston_	somewhere I'm going to have specific namespace flagged, and I'm going to see a stream of symbols come in from wherever ... I need to pick out the ones that have been qualified to my flagged ns
17:54	mmarczyk	hm, right, what tcepsa said
17:55	mmarczyk	livingston_: in that case
17:55	mmarczyk	,(name (.getName (the-ns 'user)))
17:55	clojurebot	"user"
17:55	mmarczyk	see if that matches
17:55	mmarczyk	,(.getNamespace 'foo/bar)
17:55	clojurebot	"foo"
17:56	arohner	,(find-ns 'bogus)
17:56	clojurebot	nil
17:56	livingston_	tcepsa: well if I get the exception from the-ns then yes I know it's probably not my ns, but then I'm using exceptions for control flow in a very annoying way
17:56	arohner	,(find-ns 'clojure.core)
17:56	clojurebot	#<Namespace clojure.core>
17:56	mmarczyk	,(doc find-ns)
17:56	clojurebot	"([sym]); Returns the namespace named by the symbol or nil if it doesn't exist."
17:56	mmarczyk	oh, that's cool :-)
17:56	mmarczyk	so that would be the solution
17:57	tcepsa	livingston_: ~nods~ So you might not have the namespace created, but you still want to be able to detect symbols that have been qualified with it?
17:57	mmarczyk	tcepsa: he wants to be able to test symbols which have been qualified with another ns
17:57	mmarczyk	which might not exist
17:58	livingston_	tcepsa: what mmarczyk said
17:58	tcepsa	mmarczyk: Yes, sorry, by "the namespace" I meant "the flagged namespace" not "the current namespace"
17:58	slyphon	hrm
17:58	slyphon	so ~@ causes evaluation?
17:58	mmarczyk	,(= (the-ns (symbol (.getNamespace 'foo/bar))) (the-ns 'user))
17:58	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No namespace: foo found
17:59	livingston_	I might get the symbol 'foobar/a and I'm looking for symbols in 'ex ns say, if foobar doesn't exist... the-ns returns an exception
17:59	mmarczyk	so that's a no go
17:59	livingston_	,(the-ns 'foobar/a)
17:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No namespace: foobar/a found
18:00	mmarczyk	however arohner's suggestion will work
18:00	mmarczyk	,(= (find-ns (symbol (.getNamespace 'foo/bar))) (the-ns 'user))
18:00	clojurebot	false
18:00	livingston_	slyphon: ~ cause "un quote" @ says instead of just sticking the value in to the back-quoted form splice the values of the list in
18:00	mmarczyk	,(= (find-ns (symbol (.getNamespace 'user/bar))) (the-ns 'user))
18:00	clojurebot	true
18:00	tcepsa	Ah, and that's why you said that you'd be using exceptions as flow control in an unfortunate way.
18:00	slyphon	hmm
18:00	slyphon	so is it possible to just-splice?
18:01	slyphon	https://gist.github.com/d6a6dabb9c0a85e154c2
18:01	slyphon	that causes an exception, because it doesn't know how to resolve the second set of symbols
18:01	slyphon	i.e. at line 58
18:02	livingston_	mmarczyk: as soon as I call getNamespace, namespace, etc. then I have strings ...
18:02	mmarczyk	livingston_: look at the examples above -- they seem to work?
18:02	mmarczyk	you can turn the strings into symbols with (symbol ...)
18:03	slyphon	hrm, shit, this isn't gonna work
18:03	livingston_	and I can do with with strings, (= name-of-my-package (namespace test-symbol)) but that kinda sucks to have to use strings since there are clearly structures that could be compared with pointers there
18:04	livingston_	mmarczyk: yeah but there's no point to get the string, go back to symbol (which is going to cost me the same as just comparing the string), so I guess strings it is... :(
18:04	mmarczyk	well there is no way to extract the ns a symbol is qualified with except with .getNamespace
18:05	livingston_	namespace does it too
18:05	livingston_	,(namespace 'foobar/a)
18:05	clojurebot	"foobar"
18:05	mmarczyk	,(class (namespace 'foobar/a))
18:05	clojurebot	java.lang.String
18:06	livingston_	although I really think that should return the same type as:
18:06	mmarczyk	so that's a wrapper
18:06	alexyk	so -- does anybody run leiningen with a project depending on the clojure and contrib trunks?
18:06	livingston_	,(create-ns 'user)
18:06	clojurebot	#<Namespace user>
18:06	mmarczyk	actually this does seem strange to me
18:06	mmarczyk	hmm
18:06	mmarczyk	alexyk: why?
18:06	alexyk	mmarczyk: lein fails for me in that setup
18:07	mmarczyk	livingston_: actually if you've got symbols coming in from the outside world, say
18:07	mmarczyk	or wherever
18:07	mmarczyk	they're coming in as "just strings" anyway
18:07	mmarczyk	those strings are being interned at read time
18:08	mmarczyk	so then the string is stored as a pointer to the obarray (or whatever it's called) where it is interned, I'd guess
18:08	mmarczyk	so actually when you do a .getNamespace / (namespace ...), you get an interned string
18:09	mmarczyk	and equality testing against another interned string should boil down to pointer equality
18:10	mmarczyk	so, I'd say testing string equality of the symbol's namespace part and the ns's name should be as performant as symbol equality testing should be in any Lisp
18:10	livingston	last I saw was interned string... but can you guarantee that?
18:10	mmarczyk	well I've just read the source for clojure.lang.Symbol
18:10	livingston	I guess it doesn't matter if I have to test the strings anyway (for lack of something better) I may get the faster compare by nature of them being interned
18:11	livingston	mmarczyk: that'll work too
18:11	livingston	there still should be a way to get from a symbol to it's namespace if it's there
18:11	mmarczyk	livingston: I believe it will be just like comparing symbols in CL / Scheme
18:11	replaca	Q: once, someone was talking about how to access private vars in macros. Does anyone remember that idiom?
18:11	mmarczyk	in Scheme, a symbol is just an interned string, so actually it's the same in this case
18:11	alexyk	technomancy: given I'm getting java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V now, should I rebuild lein from git or not?
18:12	mmarczyk	alexyk: given this error, I'd say you might have a clojure-contrib.jar built with an older version of clojure.jar
18:12	mmarczyk	nothing to do with lein, try java -cp your-clojure.jar:your-contrib.jar clojure.main
18:12	alexyk	mmarczyk: I just checked that I build clojure-contrib with the same 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
18:12	livingston	mmarczyk: in the case of my problem yes, although for other problems you may acutally want to get to the namespace itself to do things to it
18:13	alexyk	my repl works fine with those two jars, clojure and clojure-contrib
18:13	alexyk	the question is, why lein deps fails
18:13	alexyk	bin/lein does point to the same clojure jar
18:13	alexyk	the question is, why does lein deps need the contrib
18:13	mmarczyk	alexyk: the repl works, lein deps doesn't?
18:13	mmarczyk	livingston: well then use the-ns / find-ns
18:13	technomancy	alexyk: you can't use "lein deps" on its own lein checkout. you need to do "lein-stable deps"
18:14	alexyk	mmarczyk: repl works when launched manually with the CLASSPATh from lib/
18:14	alexyk	and I placed clojure and contrib there manually
18:14	mmarczyk	technomancy: oh? I do it all the time and break things only 10% of the time :-)
18:15	alexyk	technomancy: I didn't actually update lein via lein deps, I assumed we upgrade by git pull...
18:15	technomancy	see "Hacking" in the lein readme; I think it explains pretty well.
18:15	mmarczyk	livingston: you can't find an ns other than by symbol, I believe (seems reasonable too), and constructing a symbol from an interned string should be lightning fast
18:15	mmarczyk	since the constructor hardly does anything besides interning the strings
18:15	alexyk	meaning, in some prehistorical time I did the dance with lein-stable; do I need to do it again each time after git pull?
18:16	alexyk	my lein now points to git-lein/bin/lein
18:16	alexyk	technomancy: you said a while ago git pull should suffice
18:16	mmarczyk	alexyk: well git pull only updates the sources
18:16	mmarczyk	alexyk: you'll have to take care of deps separately if they've changed
18:16	livingston	mmarczyk: right, but there's no way to get from a symbol like say 'user/foo directly to the user ns and you can't get the "user" part from 'user/foo except as a string so that seems kinda inconsistent
18:17	technomancy	alexyk: I wasn't considering changes to clojure and contrib when I said that. if you pull you should "lein clean" and redo "lein-stable deps" if clojure has changed a decent amount since then.
18:18	alexyk	technomancy: aha!
18:18	alexyk	now it starts making sense
18:18	mmarczyk	livingston: I guess I see your point, but symbol-ns is straightforward enough to write
18:19	mmarczyk	and you can pick your semantics (exception or nil on no-such-ns)
18:23	livingston	when do symbols actually pick up a namespace in clojure?
18:23	livingston	not at read time right, unless qualified?
18:23	mmarczyk	right
18:23	alexyk	yay it works again
18:23	mmarczyk	sometimes they never get namespaced
18:24	livingston	so the fact that all the symbols in my code get into the ns defined at the top of the file is a function of the compiler, not the reader, right?
18:24	alexyk	technomancy: perhaps makes sense to add "redo lein-stable build on git lein upon major clojure/contrib changes" or something
18:24	mmarczyk	like a special symbol in operator position or a symbol naming a local
18:24	mmarczyk	livingston: they don't actually
18:24	mmarczyk	if you write (let [x 1] x), the x never gets namespaced
18:24	alexyk	btw, strange thing: my lein hangs after it does its work
18:25	alexyk	did this for a bit
18:25	livingston	really, huh so it's actually the def forms that cause it?
18:25	mmarczyk	well I wouldn't put it this way
18:25	mmarczyk	def forms create Vars
18:25	mmarczyk	which are bound to symbols in a given namespace
18:25	livingston	but then how are the symbols in your code linked to the gobal def'ed positions
18:25	mmarczyk	symbols which don't name locals in a given context
18:25	mmarczyk	are resolved to Vars
18:26	livingston	mmarczyk: right, ok .. huh
18:26	mmarczyk	unless treated specially, like 'if' in operator position
18:26	mmarczyk	,(doc special-symbol?)
18:26	clojurebot	"([s]); Returns true if s names a special form"
18:26	technomancy	alexyk: sure, good point
18:26	livingston	that kinda creeps me out but ok
18:27	mmarczyk	livingston: hm? why? :-)
18:27	mmarczyk	btw, how about this?
18:27	mmarczyk	,(let [+ :foo] (binding [+ :bar] +))
18:27	clojurebot	:foo
18:27	livingston	coming from CL I expect symbols to have a home, and that being done by the reader
18:28	mmarczyk	binding rebinds the Var, but the + in this context still names a local and locals trump Vars
18:28	mmarczyk	,(let [+ :foo] (binding [+ :bar] clojure.core/+))
18:28	clojurebot	:bar
18:28	mmarczyk	on the other hand, if you namespace by hand...
18:28	livingston	if you read in CL any unqualified symbols get put in the ns of ns so you bind over ns if you want to change the default for a read operation
18:28	mmarczyk	,(let [+ :foo] (binding [+ :bar] @#'+))
18:28	clojurebot	:bar
18:28	mmarczyk	livingston: yeah, I know
18:28	tcepsa	mmarczyk: You just blew my mind!
18:28	mmarczyk	just a sec, I've got a nice link
18:29	mmarczyk	tcepsa: :-)
18:29	mmarczyk	http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2008/10/trying-clojure.html
18:29	sexpbot	"netzhansa: Trying Clojure..."
18:29	mmarczyk	it's pretty old, but still relevant and very cool
18:30	mmarczyk	a quote:
18:30	mmarczyk	Clojure wants to be a Lisp, but it explicitly does not try to be backwards compatible. This opened a rather large design space to Rich Hickey, and some of the choices he made really do make sense. He specifies a reader, yet his reader does not intern symbols.
18:30	mmarczyk	That is a big win, as it allows the reader to actually work with arbitary Clojure source files. In Common Lisp, one needs to re-implement a full reader which does not intern symbols if one wants to read Common Lisp source files. This is kind of ironic, as the "Code is Data" mantra that we keep repeating does not really reflect what is possible in practice.
18:30	replaca	technomancy: did you say that there's a new improved magit in the wild?
18:30	mmarczyk	(um, longish)
18:30	mmarczyk	that's by Hans Hübner
18:30	tcepsa	Hehe, awesome. And on that note, I'm off!
18:31	technomancy	replaca: newer than the elpa version, yeah.
18:31	replaca	technomancy: hmmm, I wonder which one I have...
18:32	replaca	technomancy: from your repo or elsewhwere?
18:35	replaca	oh I see gitorious. Looks pretty busy, too
18:36	livingston	are the any limitations on characters or length etc. on symbols (or namespace names, although that should be about the same)?
18:38	mmarczyk	livingston: the docs mention a set of acceptable chars for symbol names
18:38	mmarczyk	livingston: these are not enforced, though
18:38	mmarczyk	and last time I checked < and > where not on the list
18:38	mmarczyk	yet -> is doing fine in core
18:38	joshua-choi	Are you talking about characters allowed in symbols by the reader? :)
18:39	livingston	yes, is the contents of this string a valid symbol name: "-52e95171:128508913e5:-7fff"
18:39	mmarczyk	the list was always explicitly meant to be expanded at some point, so I'd say any incompleteness is a big deal
18:39	joshua-choi	I asked this question on this list about a month ago
18:39	livingston	,(name 'user/-52e95171:128508913e5:-7fff)
18:39	clojurebot	"-52e95171:128508913e5:-7fff"
18:39	mmarczyk	I seem to recall a lengthy discussion on the ggroup
18:40	mmarczyk	,(class 'user/-52e95171:128508913e5:-7fff)
18:40	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
18:40	mmarczyk	Symbols begin with a non-numeric character and can contain alphanumeric characters and *, +, !, -, _, and ? (other characters will be allowed eventually, but not all macro characters have been determined).
18:40	joshua-choi	The conclusion is that, other than < and >, which are strange but definite omissions, the list is definitive and should be followed, but it is not enforced by the compiler.
18:40	mmarczyk	that's from
18:40	mmarczyk	http://clojure.org/reader
18:41	joshua-choi	At least, that's what I recal.
18:41	joshua-choi	Yes, that web page.
18:41	mmarczyk	so apparently the above example is not properly named (because of the colons)
18:42	livingston	hmmm I wonder what happens when that stream of what I'm guessing is hex stops being negative
18:42	livingston	,(name 'user/52e95171:128508913e5:-7fff)
18:42	clojurebot	Invalid token: user/52e95171:128508913e5:-7fff
18:42	joshua-choi	The idea, I think, is that there are no guarantees that that sort of symbol won't break or mean something weird in the future.
18:42	livingston	yeah... guess I prepend some crap to the front
18:42	joshua-choi	The compiler and the symbol and keyword functions do not enforce it for performance reasons, though
18:50	_brian2_	noob question> I'm trying to understand how to call a method based java constructor : http://clojure.pastebin.com/0AQVpsSp
18:51	slyphon	,(map (fn [x y] [x y]) (partition 2 (range 0 10)))
18:51	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--13140$fn
18:52	slyphon	huh?
18:52	replaca	slyphon: you need an extra set of brackets to destructure
18:53	replaca	,(map (fn [[x y]] [x y]) (partition 2 (range 0 10)))
18:53	clojurebot	([0 1] [2 3] [4 5] [6 7] [8 9])
18:53	slyphon	right on
18:53	alexyk	I am at a loss as to what to do with 1.2. Since all contrib is reshuffled, it's silly to stick with 1.1.0 and add more things to revamp later. But most of my deendencies are made under 1.1.0. I'd hate to redo them. What to do?
18:53	alexyk	short of going back to ocaml until the chips fall where they will...
18:54	alexyk	staying with 1.1.0 => living in the past; 1.2.0 => there's not much in the future yet...
18:54	slyphon	aren't they planning on making it backwards compatible?
18:54	alexyk	slyphon: try it
18:55	replaca	slyphon: mostly, yeah
18:55	alexyk	contrib is completely berserk
18:55	alexyk	ducl-streams is now io
18:55	alexyk	duck
18:55	replaca	alexyk: contrib should be close to bacwards compatible now
18:55	alexyk	seq-utils is seq
18:55	livingston	need to cut 4 characters off the front of "anon-52" to get "-52"
18:55	mmarczyk	agreed on berserk :-)
18:55	replaca	duck-streams is back in but deprecated
18:56	alexyk	replaca: what about seq-utils?
18:56	replaca	seq-utils, too, I think
18:56	alexyk	also, in str-utils2, which became str, the order of arguments in split devilishly switched
18:56	alexyk	things like that
18:56	replaca	alexyk: look at the autodoc for master - it's pretty up to date
18:57	alexyk	liebke: do you support 1.2.0 trunk?
18:57	technomancy	alexyk: it's a lot of work, but those libs will get updated
18:57	alexyk	somnium: how about you and the 1.2.0 trunk?
18:57	technomancy	if you have time to help them do so, I'm sure they'd appreciate patches
18:57	replaca	I know liebke's been doing it cause I saw his changes go in
18:57	technomancy	but if not, just lock to a slightly older snapshot
18:58	slyphon	technomancy: speaking of "locking"
18:58	slyphon	what does that look like?
18:58	technomancy	slyphon: there's a thread on the mailing list about it
18:58	slyphon	oh, ok, i'll go have a look
18:59	slyphon	is the mailing list the same as the google group?
18:59	technomancy	"seq fns promoted to clojure.core!"
18:59	technomancy	yeah
18:59	joshua-choi	slyphon: Yeah, it is.
18:59	slyphon	kk
19:00	alexyk	seq fns worked hard... they now can take a Hawaii vacation before starting the new position in core
19:01	technomancy	alexyk: how many libs are you using that break with the new clojure fns out of curiosity?
19:02	alexyk	technomancy: I use about 5 altogether, was generally weary of redoing them. Probably should just try rebuilding and see.
19:02	alexyk	I need congomongo, cupboard most of all, and incanter.
19:02	_brian2_	can somebody help me out with calling this java constructor in clojure: http://clojure.pastebin.com/0AQVpsSp
19:03	alexyk	bbl
19:03	technomancy	wow. I guess the libs I use generally try to minimize their contrib usage.
19:03	joshua-choi	(def classifier (DynamicLMClassifier/createNGramProcess DynamicLMClassifier/CATEGORIES DynamicLMClassifier/NGRAM_SIZE))
19:03	slyphon	joshua-choi: beat me to it
19:04	livingston	is drop the correct way to remove 4 characters from the front of a string? but then I get back a LazySeq, will that still be a string?
19:04	_brian2_	joshua-choi: thnks!
19:04	joshua-choi	_brian2_: You can drop the prefix if you want depending on how you require/use.
19:04	_brian2_	ok
19:04	mmarczyk	,(require '[clojure.contrib.str-utils :as str])
19:04	clojurebot	nil
19:04	mmarczyk	,(str/drop 4 "asdfasdf")
19:04	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: str/drop
19:05	mmarczyk	um, it's in c.c.string in 1.2
19:05	mmarczyk	better yet
19:05	mmarczyk	,(subs "asdfasdf" 4)
19:05	clojurebot	"asdf"
19:05	mmarczyk	that would be the right way
19:06	livingston	,(subs "anon-52" 4)
19:06	clojurebot	"-52"
19:06	livingston	works for me
19:06	mmarczyk	(drop 4 "asdfasdf") would need to be stringified
19:06	mmarczyk	yup, and subs is in core
19:06	livingston	,(doc subs)
19:06	clojurebot	"([s start] [s start end]); Returns the substring of s beginning at start inclusive, and ending at end (defaults to length of string), exclusive."
19:06	mmarczyk	otherwise you could just use .substring
19:06	livingston	mmarczyk: yeah that's what I was seeing
19:31	rsh	if i want to have several worker threads that get updated when something get added to a queue and then they do work in the background, should those worker threads be agents and the queue be an atom? is there a way to notify agents on some event like adding to the queue?
19:36	livingston	rsh: i don't know if there is a better clojure-ey way, but your agents could all read and if there is nothing there call wait on the queue and when the queue gets data it can notify to wake up sleepers
19:37	livingston	that's the java-ey way, I'm going to have a similar problem too though a little bit down the line
19:39	rsh	yeah, I wonder if there is a different way to model this
19:41	rsh	are agents really the best thing to use for this? all I have are threads that do work..they don't maintain any state
19:41	livingston	there are "thread pools" in java that you can queue work into (and I think there is some abstraction of that in clojure), my problem is that my work will be queued into a priority queue, so it may not all get done and more important work should float to the top
19:42	livingston	agents seem more for doing things like, "hey you guy, do this,.. whenever you get around to it" and then hold onto the value
19:42	rsh	that is what I was thinking
19:43	livingston	it sounds like you just have a thread pool pulling/pushing to one of these things, either atom or agent
19:44	somnium	,(doc future)
19:44	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block."
19:44	rsh	also, why is it that calling println does not show up in the repl when an agent runs some code?
19:45	_nj	(defroutes main-routes
19:45	_nj	(GET "/"
19:45	_nj	"Index page")
19:45	_nj	(ANY "*"
19:45	_nj	[404 "Page not found"])) Gives me an exception Unsupported binding form: Index page
19:46	_nj	any help is appreciated :)
19:46	rsh	how is a future different from an agent and using send-off?
19:47	somnium	rsh: futures arent mutable, and deref blocks on reads
19:47	livingston	think of futures as one-shot deals
19:47	somnium	agents are mutable and reads dont block, afaik
19:48	rsh	thanks
19:48	lancepantz	_nj: that looks like the 0.3 compojure syntax, are you trying to use it with 0.4?
19:48	livingston	agents can also partisipate in some ways in transactions
19:49	_nj	lancepantz: yes, I wasn't aware of that, any pointers to the new syntax?
19:49	mmarczyk	,(doc seque)
19:49	clojurebot	"([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent BlockingQueue. Note that reading from a seque can block if the reader gets ahead of the producer."
19:49	mmarczyk	rsh: I wonder if this might help?
19:51	mmarczyk	then maybe have some kind of "foreman thread" take stuff out of seque's pipe and pass it onto some worker threads, be they agents or whatever
19:52	rsh	that sounds promising
19:53	mmarczyk	in fact a question came up on SO some time ago which may be relevant to you
19:53	mmarczyk	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2602791/clojure-agents-consuming-from-a-queue
19:53	sexpbot	"Clojure agents consuming from a queue - Stack Overflow"
19:53	mmarczyk	I brought up the seque approach
19:53	mmarczyk	Christophe Grand had a different idea
19:54	mmarczyk	and Timothy Pratley -- a third one
19:54	mmarczyk	not sure if any of those worked for the OP, but perhaps they will for you :-)
19:55	rsh	thanks!
20:07	rsh	mmarczyk: any reason you say to use a ref instead of an atom in your solution to maintain the queue?
20:15	mmarczyk	rsh: not sure, I might have changed it from a version which would have required a Ref or not thought about using an Atom... or I'm missing sth now
20:15	mmarczyk	actually I see that there's some improvements to be made to that answer
20:15	mmarczyk	namely do-stuff shouldn't self-call; recur would be appropriate; but that's pretty obvious
20:16	rsh	also, what is reason for creating an agent in a future as opposed to just send-off'ing agents directly?
20:17	mmarczyk	more importantly, I guess that seque needs to be moved passed the element that's been read
20:17	mmarczyk	that's straightforward with a Ref, but cgrand had a nice trick to do that with an Atom:
20:17	mmarczyk	cons a nil onto the seque
20:17	mmarczyk	then use (first (swap! a rest)) to read elements
20:18	mmarczyk	,(let [a (atom (range 5))] (str (first (swap! a rest)) " " (first swap! a rest)))
20:18	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$first
20:19	mmarczyk	,(let [a (atom (range 5))] (str (first (swap! a rest)) " " (first (swap! a rest))))
20:19	clojurebot	"1 2"
20:20	mmarczyk	as for the futures, they make for a nice way to start a background thread...
20:20	mmarczyk	I guess agents might in fact be unnecessary here, though
20:20	mmarczyk	not sure what I was thinking :-)
20:26	rsh	i think this makes sense to me now, thanks for your help
20:27	rsh	(doc future-done?)
20:27	clojurebot	"([f]); Returns true if future f is done"
20:46	rsh	why does println or prn not print to the repl when an agent runs some code?
20:52	mmarczyk	rsh: np :-)
20:52	mmarczyk	re: printing from agents, would that be in the SLIME REPL?
20:52	rsh	yes
20:52	mmarczyk	I think there's a setting for that... slime-redirect-output or some such thing
20:52	mmarczyk	slime-redirect-inferior-output
20:53	mmarczyk	hm, actually it's a function
20:54	mmarczyk	right, just call that
20:54	mmarczyk	then printouts from other threads should go to the repl buffer too
20:54	mmarczyk	I have that in my slime-connected-hook
21:02	rsh	thanks
22:25	replaca	hiredman: if you're here: the squeaky wheel gets the grease (plus I just happened to stumble across that piece of code). The JSON should be all right now. Let me know!
22:26	rhickey	cemerick: I fixed #329
22:36	chouser	ah, neat! Hadn't thought of that.
22:42	cemerick	chouser: I don't quite understand what's going on in that fix. My quick reading earlier made me think that (. obj :field) would work, but it doesn't.
22:44	chouser	works here
22:44	cemerick	hrm
22:44	chouser	(. (clojure.lang.Box. 5) :val)
22:45	cemerick	Anyway, I wish I had thought of that instead of futzing with a bandaid for 90 minutes :-(
23:23	cemerick	chouser: OK, so almost everything looks good here -- note the last one: https://gist.github.com/17125de93ab466043505
23:50	uberjar	I want projobuffers
23:51	uberjar	and a pony.
23:51	uberjar	someone hook me up
23:52	ninjudd	http://github.com/ninjudd/clojure-protobuf
23:53	cemerick	hrm
23:53	uberjar	I don't know how I missed that.. thnx
23:53	cemerick	that java compilation part is a bummer
23:54	cemerick	ninjudd: are you eyeing deftype, etc. as a next step?
23:54	ninjudd	cemerick: do you mean reimplementing using deftype?
23:55	cemerick	right, to avoid any intermediate java step
23:55	ninjudd	without using google's code at all?
23:56	ninjudd	i'd be into it if it makes it faster
23:57	ninjudd	if not, then i don't see a reason why using java interop is bad
23:57	cemerick	it's not bad, per se, but I'd bet eliminating the compilation step would make for a much more pleasant dev process in a lot of cases.
23:58	ninjudd	my goal is to make it a pleasant dev process either way
23:59	ninjudd	i spent a lot of time on the ant scripts to make building it very easy