#clojure – 2010-04-28

2010-04-28

00:32	MadWombat	Hello
00:33	Raynes	Hello.
00:35	MadWombat	I have a number of functions generating data and a single function for storing this data. At this point I have something like (def fns ['f1 'f2 'f3]) (doseq [f fns] (store-data ((eval f))))
00:35	MadWombat	this somehow seems ugly and non-idiomatic
00:35	MadWombat	especially ((eval f)) part
00:36	MadWombat	is this "The Clojure Way" or am I not sufficiently enlightened?
00:37	technomancy	MadWombat: what about (def fns [f1 f2 f3]) (doseq [f fns] (store-data (f))) ?
00:38	technomancy	assuming the f1, f2, f3, etc have been def'd when the function calling store-data is compiled
00:46	MadWombat	technomancy: interesting :) wonder why I started quoting them right away anyway
01:10	vIkSiT	mmarczyk, you mean "back" into a separate duck-streams ns?
01:10	cemerick	vIkSiT: right, (:require [clojure.contrib.io :as io]), and then use io/slurp* and io/spit, etc
01:10	mmarczyk	yes
01:10	mmarczyk	but you can just use stuff from io, yes
01:10	cemerick	It's been suggested that it be restored, but deprecated
01:10	mmarczyk	be wary of changes in behaviour though
01:10	vIkSiT	ah I see
01:10	vIkSiT	hmm.
01:11	mmarczyk	some of the functions act somewhat differently in addition to having been moved to a different ns
01:11	vIkSiT	i c
01:12	vIkSiT	well, it looks like Clojure is to languages what Linux has been to OSs :) Its changing so fast!
01:12	cemerick	the perils of following the bleeding edge :-)
01:12	vIkSiT	(Not to mention that half the books haven't been written yet :P)
01:12	cemerick	vIkSiT: you can see the current state of the API here: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/index.html
01:13	cemerick	That shows where the master branch is, and there's a link at the left to get to the 1.1.x release docs.
01:13	vIkSiT	cemerick, ah, I've been using 1.2.0 Master for a while.. don't think I could go back to 1.1.x
01:14	mmarczyk	spoiled with the new toys :-)
01:16	vIkSiT	hehe totally
01:18	vIkSiT	cemerick, wow, that list is comprehensive! How does one explore all that :)
01:19	cemerick	slowly, and only as needed :-)
01:25	vIkSiT	the graph library looks interesting
01:43	vIkSiT	hmm is line-seq recommended to open files?
01:44	cemerick	vIkSiT: it takes a reader, but sure
01:44	vIkSiT	(line-seq (reader "filepath")) for instance.
01:44	vIkSiT	ah, I was just guessing that since line-seq is lazy - it probably doesn't put everything in memory..
01:44	vIkSiT	vs say, slurp
01:45	cemerick	vIkSiT: io/read-lines is probably better
01:45	vIkSiT	ah
01:45	cemerick	note the docs though
01:46	vIkSiT	cemerick, anything specific there btw?
01:46	mmarczyk	so if you might need to consume just a handful of lines, then close your reader, (with-open [r (reader path)] (let [ls (line-seq r)] ...)) might be better
01:46	defn	stu h's new screencast is awesome
01:46	cemerick	vIkSiT: regarding?
01:48	vIkSiT	cemerick, oh, nothing - I thought you were talking about soemething specific in the docs.
01:48	mmarczyk	(doc clojure.contrib.duck-streams/read-lines)
01:48	clojurebot	"([f]); Like clojure.core/line-seq but opens f with reader. Automatically closes the reader AFTER YOU CONSUME THE ENTIRE SEQUENCE."
01:48	cemerick	vIkSiT: only the fact that read-lines doesn't close the reader it opens until you consume the entire sequence, which is likely what mmarczyk was referring to
01:48	mmarczyk	see the bit in capital letters
01:48	mmarczyk	yup
01:49	mmarczyk	defn: it is, isn't it? :-)
01:49	vIkSiT	aah, I get mmarczyk's statement now as well, thanks!
02:04	vIkSiT	oh I always forget to ask - on an emacs slime REPL - whats the best way to break the currently executing program/statement?
02:06	_ato	vIkSiT: C-c C-b
02:06	vIkSiT	ah thanks _ato
02:07	vIkSiT	also, is there a way to "log" a particular REPL session into a file somewhere?
02:07	_ato	maybe C-x C-w (write-file) and enter a filename
02:08	_ato	that's a one off saving though, dunno about logging continuously
02:08	_ato	you can keep hitting save after you've named it I guess :p
02:08	vIkSiT	hehe
02:09	vIkSiT	ah that works just fine..
02:09	vIkSiT	I just need a log of some stuff
02:37	vIkSiT	is there a way to create an index for an in memory clojure data structure?
02:37	vIkSiT	(assuming you have a huge map for instance..)
03:54	carkh	vIkSiT: a map is already indexed by it's key isn't it ?
03:54	carkh	its*
04:07	LauJensen	Morning all
04:07	esj	and a good morning to you, sir.
04:07	ordnungswidrig	moin
04:09	spariev	morning
04:11	mmarczyk	good morning
04:12	spariev	isn't memfn deprecated ?
04:13	Raynes	mmarczyk: I was trying to modify a ref inside a macro inside a macro.
04:14	spariev	just received a ClojureInAction MEAP update, and found example with memfn in chapter on Java interop
04:15	Raynes	spariev: memfn existed before #().
04:15	Raynes	I don't know why he would use it.
04:17	mmarczyk	hi Raynes
04:17	Raynes	Yo.
04:17	mmarczyk	are you by any chance trying to write a pair of a wrapper macro establishing state + a macro to be used inside that to update that state?
04:18	mmarczyk	just occurred to me you might be
04:19	Raynes	I think that about nails it. It establishes some state and then does some stuff with it at the end. However, I just realized that isn't going to work like I want it to.
04:19	Raynes	My macrofoo is quite weak.
04:19	mmarczyk	incidentally, it took me until now to put the pieces together and realise that I know you from all of SO, clj101 and here :-)
04:19	mmarczyk	makes me feel a bit silly now
04:19	Raynes	~@body tries to evaluate everything in an argument list passed to a multimethod in the other macro, and I don't see a way around that. :\
04:19	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boys from the men.
04:20	Raynes	Indeed.
04:20	mmarczyk	oh, well, I was thinking of posting an answer to your Q with some thoughts re: this kind of scenario
04:21	mmarczyk	:-)
04:21	Raynes	mmarczyk: http://gist.github.com/381865 Is the actual example.
04:21	mmarczyk	incidentally, I find this surprising:
04:22	mmarczyk	,(let [g (gensym)] (= g (symbol (name g))))
04:22	clojurebot	true
04:22	Raynes	That fails. Hard. Since you wanted a more realistic example. :>
04:22	mmarczyk	not in hindsight, that is
04:22	mmarczyk	but haven't expected it
04:22	mmarczyk	Raynes: looking now
04:23	Raynes	Aye, that (do in defplugin is unnecessary, by the way.
04:23	Raynes	Just haven't removed it.
04:24	mmarczyk	you might want to add a comment to your Q to point to that, it makes the idea come across
04:24	mmarczyk	quite clearly
04:24	Raynes	I will once I get it less ugly and more of what I expected.
04:25	Raynes	I also forgot to remove the quote from ~@body in defplugin.
04:25	Raynes	That was a typo.
04:25	Raynes	:p
04:25	Raynes	This would totally work if not for ~@body forcing evaluating of the damned argument list.
04:26	mmarczyk	hm
04:26	mmarczyk	~@ has nothing to do with whether sth is evaluated or not
04:26	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
04:26	Raynes	http://gist.github.com/381870
04:26	mmarczyk	ouch, sorry, clojurebot
04:27	Raynes	mmarczyk: I guess that isn't quite what I meant.
04:27	Raynes	Anyway, the arg list that is being passed to the multimethod from defcommand is being evaluated by something.
04:27	Raynes	Because it gives me "whatever is not defined"
04:28	Raynes	I've never really done anything significant with macros before.
04:29	mmarczyk	I'm trying to fix that atm
04:29	Raynes	Macros are fun until you realize that you're too dumb to write them. :>
04:30	Licenser_	Raynes: my experience: often a function works too
04:30	Raynes	For context, if anybody is wondering what I'm doing, I'm writing a DSL for plugins in sexpbot.
04:31	cgrand	Raynes: defplugin's body can only contain defcommand forms?
04:32	Raynes	cgrand: I've not decided on that yet.
04:32	Raynes	It depends on whether or not it can contain other things without causing problems. :p
04:32	Raynes	All that is really necessary in there is defcommand forms.
04:32	Raynes	Technically, anyway.
04:33	Raynes	You could put functions and such outside and just drop the defcommands in defplugin.
04:33	cgrand	then why bother with two separate macros?
04:33	Raynes	It doesn't really matter either way.
04:33	Raynes	Because I was trying to go for the put-everything-in-defplugin scheme.
04:34	Raynes	Because it would look better.
04:34	Raynes	If that's too much trouble, I'll have to go that route.
04:38	mmarczyk	have you considered using clojure.contrib.macro-utils/macrolet ?
04:39	cgrand	put-everything-including-defs-and-defns?
04:39	mmarczyk	I've almost reimplemented a chunk of that just now, then realised I'd seen it in contrib :-)
04:39	mmarczyk	(please disregard the nonsensical `almost' in the above)
04:40	Raynes	cgrand: Indeed.
04:41	Raynes	Was that moved in contrib master?
04:42	Raynes	Ah
04:42	Raynes	macros
04:42	mmarczyk	http://gist.github.com/381879
04:42	mmarczyk	I'm using latest contrib now
04:42	mmarczyk	so yeah, maybe it was called something different before
04:42	mmarczyk	the ns, that is
04:43	Raynes	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/macro-utils.clj is giving me a File Not Found
04:43	mmarczyk	the gist is just a rough sketch, btw
04:44	mmarczyk	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/macro_utils.clj
04:44	Raynes	D'oh.
04:44	mmarczyk	:-)
04:45	Raynes	mmarczyk: Oh, that's cool.
04:45	cgrand	Raynes: alternative DSL designs which don't need two separate macros, https://gist.github.com/19367943286f495c96df
04:45	Raynes	mmarczyk: I can work with this.
04:46	Raynes	Thanks, both of you. I like the macrolet option.
04:47	mmarczyk	cgrand's ideas look good, though -- especially the first one, looks a lot like defprotocol
04:48	Raynes	I don't think I really understand macros enough to implement either of those idea.s
04:48	Raynes	ideas*
04:49	mmarczyk	that could be construed as a reason to try :-)
04:49	Raynes	Or a construed reason to kill myself.
04:49	Raynes	I was pretty fond of my original idea. :\
04:50	Raynes	I've already been frustrated for about 2 hours. Not sure I can handle another 10.
04:50	mmarczyk	nothing like a 10-hour-long bug hunting session, I find
04:51	mmarczyk	I mean, I never quite get into that sort of kill-murder-destroy mood in any other way -- and it has this purifying effect, you know? ;-)
04:52	Chousuke	hmhm
04:52	Chousuke	I think you should try implementing both of cgrand's ideas
04:53	Raynes	Is the other idea really that bad?
04:54	mmarczyk	well actually the first defplugin with (cmdkey [args] body...) sections should be the most straightforward too
04:54	Chousuke	well the worst of it is that it captures the name cmd-list
04:54	mmarczyk	you could make that (defplugin plugin-name (cmdkey [args] body...)*)
04:54	Raynes	Capturing cmd-list should never cause any problems.
04:55	Chousuke	that would be pretty easy. you'd just get the name and a seq of cmdkey specs as parameters
04:55	mmarczyk	Chousuke: not with the macrolet approach
04:55	Raynes	And the macrolet approach uses a gynsym.
04:55	Raynes	gensym*
04:55	mmarczyk	not to say I don't agree with the general sentiment, which I do
04:56	Raynes	I need an extra keyboard.
04:56	Raynes	One I can beat my head against. :>
04:57	mmarczyk	hm, I seem to have forgotten to include the (let [g (ref [])] ...) bit in the gist, will fix in a sec
04:57	Chousuke	maybe you're trying too hard :P
04:57	Chousuke	create a simpler macro first, then expand
04:57	Raynes	I kind of just wanted this done. Immediately.
04:57	Raynes	Which is more the problem than anything.
04:58	mmarczyk	...fixed (hopefully)
04:58	Chousuke	Raynes: make a function that takes one of those (cmdkey [args] ...) things and then returns some clojure code
04:59	Chousuke	then do your macro like `(do whateverstuff ~@(map helper-fn cmdspecs))
05:00	cgrand	https://gist.github.com/19367943286f495c96df#L11
05:00	Chousuke	that would be a simple way to implement cgrand's first idea.
05:01	Chousuke	... or that :)
05:01	Raynes	Close.
05:02	Raynes	Each of these commands does more than just exist. Each of them take help string for the command and a list of words that will trigger the command.
05:02	Raynes	I'm not sure how that would be possible like this.
05:04	Raynes	Or wait.
05:04	Raynes	Sorry, had a brainfart there.
05:04	Raynes	It's all coming back to me.
05:04	Raynes	:p
05:04	Chousuke	keep in mind that in principle you're just working with data structures
05:05	Raynes	Chousuke: I was thinking about it too much.
05:05	Raynes	It makes sense now.
05:05	Chousuke	if you design your DSL so that the data structures are easy to modify it'll be easy to implement
05:06	Raynes	cgrand: I appreciate the head start there.
05:06	Raynes	cgrand: You might have just taught me macros. :p
05:07	cgrand	Raynes: great!
05:08	mmarczyk	:-)
05:12	cgrand	Raynes: don't look at this solution now then http://gist.github.com/381898 :-)
05:13	mmarczyk	and a working example of macrolet usage... though for a different purpose (which is ridiculous): http://gist.github.com/381904
05:26	Raynes	cgrand: Out outcomes ended up being quite similar. I just stole your clever trick to get rid of the ref.
05:26	Raynes	cgrand: It's still tossing me that "whatever is not defined" stuff though.
05:27	cgrand	Raynes: can you paste your test?
05:27	Raynes	cgrand: Also, why is that `(do ..) before the ~@(for ..) important?
05:28	Raynes	cgrand: http://gist.github.com/381923
05:28	Raynes	"irc is not defined"
05:28	Raynes	I assume it's trying to evaluate the stuff in the argument vector.
05:28	cgrand	because a macro returns only one form, so you have to group the defmethods and the dosync into a do
05:29	Raynes	cgrand: Oh, alright.
05:29	stilkov_	Is there a page somewhere that lists the performance guarantees for the various different collections?
05:29	stilkov_	http://clojure.org/data_structures only mentions them for some functions
05:31	Chousuke	hmm
05:31	Chousuke	a table would be easy to make
05:31	Chousuke	too bad I don't have a blog or anything to publish one :P
05:35	cgrand	Raynes: I can't reproduce your bug
05:35	Raynes	http://gist.github.com/381936 Is there anything wrong with my version?
05:35	stilkov_	Chousuke: I can offer a a blog that would be happy to host this :-)
05:40	Raynes	cgrand: I think I had some screwed up parens.
05:41	cgrand	Raynes: I guess beacuse your own version works as well as mine
05:41	jwr7	deftrace does not support functions with docstrings (as I've just discovered)
05:43	Raynes	cgrand: Works like a charm now. Thanks a lot, and congratulations on being part of the effort to run Clojurebot out of town. ;)
05:43	Raynes	mmarczyk, Chousuke: Thanks to you guys as well. <3
05:48	Raynes	Now the fun part.
05:48	Raynes	Converting some 30 plugins to use the new DSL.
05:49	lancepantz	can i use read-properties to read a properties file from the classpath instead of a specific file?
05:50	Chousuke	I wonder if conj to a vector is log32 or constant time
05:57	Chousuke	Anyone spot mistakes in this? It's all from memory and docstrings. www.gensoukyou.net/datas.html
05:57	sexpbot	"datas"
06:03	wooby	'morning all
06:07	Chousuke	I wonder about the queue performance guarantees though :/
06:08	Chousuke	too bad rhickey isn't here :P
06:10	Chousuke	(don't tweet that url or anything, I make no guarantees of persisting stuff on my home server)
06:11	LauJensen	Chousuke: So accept stilkov's offer?
06:12	Chousuke	only after I get someone to agree with me on the veracity of that data
06:16	cgrand	Chousuke: conj on Queue is O(log32 n) (the tail of a queue is a vector)
06:16	cgrand	pop is O(1) for vectors
06:17	cgrand	err no
06:17	spariev	according to Chapter 5 of JoC, count on vectors is "essentially constant time", which means O(log32 n)
06:18	Chousuke	hmm, so they don't store a count value?
06:18	cgrand	pop is O(log32 n)
06:19	spariev	oh, sorry, my bad, it's o(1)
06:19	spariev	misreading on my part
06:19	Chousuke	yeah, I just checked the source
06:31	Chousuke	I guess the table is okay now.
06:41	Raynes	rhickey: Morning.
06:41	rhickey	hey
06:58	Chousuke	rhickey: I wrote a table summarising the performance guarantees of various data structures for certain operations: www.gensoukyou.net/datas.html any comments/corrections?
06:58	sexpbot	"datas"
07:02	rhickey	Chousuke: from an algorithmic (big-O) complexity standpoint, O(logN) and O(log32N) are the same, so big-O is not the way to distinguish those. Instead, you can say that access to an element will require max log32N hops, i.e. a concrete limit
07:03	rhickey	conj and pop on vectors are O(1)
07:04	Chousuke	I suppose assoc doesn't work for sets either. I should probably note that somehow
07:06	rhickey	conj on queue is also O(1)
07:08	AWizzArd	rhickey: subvec also O(1) yes?
07:10	Chousuke	I suppose I'll just change the time guarantees constant, near-constant and logarithmic with explanations
07:11	Chousuke	and linear
07:13	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes
07:14	AWizzArd	gooood
07:20	patrkris	would protocols make it possible to transparently make partition fast on vectors by using subvec?
07:21	Chousuke	partition is fast
07:21	Chousuke	it returns a lazy sequence
07:21	Chousuke	so it's in effect constant tim
07:21	Chousuke	time*
07:22	LauJensen	Chousuke: I dont follow your logic
07:22	patrkris	the call to partition itself is fast, yes
07:23	LauJensen	patrkris: But yes, protocols would let you use specific functions for chopping up specific datatypes
07:23	patrkris	LauJensen: yes - but I guess multimethods could be used also
07:25	LauJensen	I guess.
07:27	Chousuke	I need to learn to use org-mode better :P
07:27	Chousuke	oh well, I guess the table is okay now.
08:16	wlangstroth	technomancy: were there really that many *jure projects? I only know of scriptjure.
08:17	Raynes	wlangstroth: Compojure, conjure, enclojure, etc.
08:18	LauJensen	technomancy: that last commit was a joke right?
08:18	wlangstroth	Raynes: I completely forgot about those - LauJensen: Pretty sure that was a joke - doesn't Compojure use lein?
08:19	Raynes	Surely it's a joke.
08:20	LauJensen	Raynes: If it was anybody other than phil who made it, I wouldnt even have asked :)
08:20	Raynes	:p
08:20	wlangstroth	He has kept it up there for a while, though
08:21	Raynes	Now my bot has a newly designed plugin system with an implicit help system, and all the plugins have been updated to the reflect the changes. That took a while.
08:21	Raynes	Huge commit, that was.
08:21	Raynes	26 files changed, 575 insertions(+), 455 deletions(-)
08:21	LauJensen	wlangstroth: Yes, and deep down in every American there's a communist screaming to get out, so I wouldnt put it past to him to feel like he should control how we name our projects :)
08:22	Raynes	Hey! :<
08:22	wlangstroth	LauJensen: It's so true. We Canadians admitted to our socialism long ago.
08:22	mmarczyk	in fact, at this very moment, he is following this conversation and laughing in an evil manner at those who are trying to believe this is all a joke
08:24	mmarczyk	"Leiningen!" he shouted. "You're insane! They're not creatures you can fight--they're an elemental--an 'act of God!' Ten miles long, two miles wide--jure projects, nothing but jure projects! And every single line of code of each one of them a fiend from hell..."
08:24	Raynes	$help (
08:24	sexpbot	Raynes: Evalutate Clojure code. Sandboxed, so you're welcome to try to break it.
08:24	Raynes	It's beautiful.
08:24	Raynes	mmarczyk, cgrand: I love you guys. <3
08:25	mmarczyk	:-)
08:25	LauJensen	mmarczyk: You must restrain yourself! We dont know for sure yet!
08:26	mmarczyk	pleased to make your acquaintance, Mr. Sexpbot
08:26	LauJensen	$(dorun (pmap count (partition 2 (range 10e9))))
08:26	Raynes	The core code is a mess right now because of a lack of sophisticated hooking.
08:26	sexpbot	Execution Timed Out!
08:27	LauJensen	Nice work Raynes
08:27	Raynes	LauJensen: Thank you. <3
08:27	Raynes	It uses clj-sandbox for that. Courtesy of Licenser_.
08:28	mmarczyk	LauJensen: there's this strange feeling deep down in my gut, of truly the most dire portent, I fear
08:28	wlangstroth	That's the most sophisticated "Execution Timed Out!" I've ever seen.
08:29	mmarczyk	$(.hash "asdf")
08:29	sexpbot	No matching method found: hash for class java.lang.String
08:29	mmarczyk	(ouch)
08:29	mmarczyk	$(.hashCode "asdf")
08:29	sexpbot	3003444
08:29	fogus	$(#(% %) #(% %))
08:30	mmarczyk	$(.getDeclaredMethod Integer "parseInt" (into-array Class [String]))
08:30	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:30	rfg	$(def x 5)
08:30	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:30	Raynes	Oh yeah, that reminds me of a big.
08:30	Raynes	bug*
08:30	LauJensen	$(future (+ 2 2))
08:30	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:30	Raynes	If it returns nil, it doesn't print anything.
08:30	Raynes	That's something I forgot to fix from ages ago, because it isn't on my TODO list. :>
08:30	mmarczyk	$(eval :foo)
08:30	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:30	mmarczyk	$:foo
08:30	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
08:31	rfg	$clojure-version
08:31	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
08:31	mmarczyk	$(do clojure-version)
08:31	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:31	mmarczyk	$(identity clojure-version)
08:31	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:31	Raynes	It's 1.2.
08:31	Raynes	But that var isn't whitelisted.
08:31	mmarczyk	the secretive Mr. Sexpbot :-)
08:31	mmarczyk	$(clojure.contrib.find-namespaces/find-namespaces-on-classpath)
08:31	sexpbot	clojure.contrib.find-namespaces
08:32	rfg	$(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
08:32	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:32	Raynes	Right now, you can do less with him than you can with clojurebot, because of manual whitelisting. Lot's of useful stuff is whitelisted (everything in the core API docs, nearly).
08:33	mmarczyk	why'd he return 'clojure.contrib.find-namespaces for $(clojure.contrib.find-namespaces/find-namespaces-on-classpath) ?
08:33	mmarczyk	#clojure-casual ? is there such a channel? :-)
08:33	Raynes	I don't know.
08:33	fogus	$(let [$ identity] (#(% $) #(% $)))
08:33	sexpbot	clojure.core$identity__3929@e62a39
08:33	Raynes	mmarczyk: Indeed.
08:35	mmarczyk	$(ns-resolve ns 'clojure-version)
08:35	sexpbot	DENIED!
08:35	Licenser_	mmarczyk: if you break the sandbox you get a cookie :P
08:36	mmarczyk	oh! oh!
08:36	mmarczyk	lemme get the code then
08:37	Licenser_	mmarczyk: changing the code to break it does not cound :P
08:37	mmarczyk	that much is understood :-)
08:37	Licenser_	elsewhre http://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox
08:37	sexpbot	Page has no title.
08:37	Raynes	Uh oh.
08:37	Raynes	That isn't good.
08:37	Licenser_	I broke sexpbot
08:38	Licenser_	heh
08:38	Raynes	He's supposed to ignore github titles.
08:38	mmarczyk	still, I shall learn the anatomy of the target, so that I may most swiftly concoct the lethal poison with which to corrupt it
08:38	Licenser_	mmarczyk: appriciated
08:39	Licenser_	I claim it to be more secure then clojurebot :P
08:39	Raynes	Oh, I see.
08:42	Raynes	<Licenser_> elsewhre http://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox
08:42	Raynes	There we go.
08:42	Raynes	Good bot.
08:43	mmarczyk	$(meta #'+)
08:43	sexpbot	{:macro false, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 716, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), :inline-arities #{2}, :inline #<core$_PLUS___3797 clojure.core$_PLUS___3797@15ed7e7>, :doc "Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0."}
08:44	mmarczyk	$(.alterMeta #'+ assoc :name '-)
08:44	sexpbot	Tried to call: alterMeta on #'clojure.core/+ which is not allowed.
08:44	mmarczyk	:-)
08:44	Licenser_	:)
08:44	Licenser_	good aproach but no cookie yet
08:45	mmarczyk	this only serves to strengthen our resolve (and hopefully the awaiting cookie grows larger in time)
08:45	Licenser_	just more
08:46	Licenser_	you know there is a limit of cookie size to create but the ammount of cookies - while certenly limited - is way more extenedable
08:46	mmarczyk	"You silly wabbit..." :-D
08:46	Raynes	Well, _ato` just broke sexpbot.
08:47	Raynes	You guys are on a roll today. :p
08:47	Licenser_	_ato`: is good at breaking things
08:47	mmarczyk	Licenser: oh, I should have realised you'd have a lazy sequence of cookies
08:47	Licenser_	of cause
08:48	Licenser_	if my stove could laziely evaluate it I even could make a unlimited sized cookie but sadly it's a java stove and I don't have a clojure wrapper yet
08:49	mmarczyk	$(symbol "asdf")
08:50	mmarczyk	oh the bothersome legacy stoves
08:51	Licenser_	$(symbol "asdf")
08:51	sexpbot	result: asdf
08:51	Raynes	Not as fixed as I thought.
08:52	mmarczyk	hm
08:53	mmarczyk	$(throw (RuntimeException. "asdf"))
08:54	Raynes	mmarczyk: You might want to wait until the bot is online. :p
08:54	Raynes	Works better that way.
08:55	mmarczyk	the very same idea has occurred to me ;-)
08:58	mmarczyk	right, um, so I was going to retry that; here goes:
08:58	mmarczyk	$(throw (RuntimeException. "asdf"))
08:58	sexpbot	asdf
08:59	spariev	$(str "b" (reduce (fn [x y] (str x "i")) "i" (take 30 (repeat :cookie))) "g cookie")
08:59	sexpbot	result: biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig cookie
08:59	spariev	just experimenting with lazy seq of cookies
08:59	Licenser_	good work spariev
08:59	Raynes	Cookies taste good.
09:00	mmarczyk	$(str #=(println "Regrettably, one must work harder than this for one's cookie."))
09:00	sexpbot	EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
09:08	fogus	Clojure API needed. http://www.flyobjectspace.com/
09:08	sexpbot	"Fly Object Space"
09:09	mmarczyk	$(() ())
09:09	sexpbot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
09:10	mmarczyk	$(the-ns 'user)
09:10	sexpbot	result: user
09:11	mmarczyk	$(.getMapping (the-ns 'user) 'resolve)
09:11	sexpbot	DENIED!
09:11	mmarczyk	:-(
09:12	mmarczyk	obviously not gonna work, but hey... I've just thought of at least a dozen convoluted ways of calling Clojure functions by name :-)
09:17	Chousuke	,(resolve 'foo)
09:17	clojurebot	nil
09:18	Chousuke	,((resolve (symbol (apply str '[e v a l]))) '(+ 1 1))
09:18	clojurebot	2
09:18	Chousuke	:P
09:18	mmarczyk	oh my :-)
09:19	Chousuke	I don't think there's any way to prevent arbitrary evaluation without actually explicitly somehow removing eval from the sandbox ns and all ways of getting to it.
09:19	mmarczyk	you're talking to the wrong bot, though :-)
09:19	mmarczyk	$(resolve 'foo)
09:19	sexpbot	DENIED!
09:19	mmarczyk	,(resolve 'foo)
09:19	clojurebot	nil
09:20	anars	,(doc resolve)
09:20	clojurebot	"([sym]); same as (ns-resolve ns symbol)"
09:20	Chousuke	$(var resolve)
09:20	sexpbot	DENIED!
09:20	Chousuke	$(ns-resolve ns 'foo)
09:20	sexpbot	DENIED!
09:20	Chousuke	hmm, they've been more thorough :P
09:20	Chousuke	$'resolve
09:20	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
09:21	Chousuke	$(do 'resolve)
09:21	sexpbot	DENIED!
09:21	Chousuke	... very thorough :P
09:21	Chousuke	$(ns-mappings ns)
09:21	sexpbot	DENIED!
09:21	Chousuke	hmmh
09:24	LauJensen	Chousuke: I wonder if you ask Raynes nicely, if he won't give you your own special channel wherein you can practice :)
09:24	Raynes	I already did. :\
09:24	Raynes	They just haven't listened. :p
09:24	kzar	#clojure-casual I think
09:25	Raynes	LauJensen: Every time people play with the bot, I note that it's in #clojure-casual as well for extended playtime.
09:30	Raynes	At least chouser didn't have to see me make a fool of myself.
09:31	Chousuke	heh
09:31	LauJensen	mmarczyk: you're switching to mouse ?
09:31	LauJensen	cemerick: You got me there :)
09:32	Chousuke	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/39732d5b649dedb70b14e88fe561dfc9ddb31611 \o/
09:33	wlangstroth	LauJensen: I'm guessing the concern for American roots had more to do with being sued than incurring a tax.
09:34	LauJensen	wlangstroth: as cemerick pointed out yes - though I hold a small grudge against your main man Al Gore, who wants to tax all of my precious CO2
09:35	cemerick	ah, the blunt cludgel of tax policy :-)
09:36	wlangstroth	LauJensen: I didn't realize you were the one responsible for so much CO2.
09:36	LauJensen	Yea thats my bad Im afraid
09:38	wlangstroth	I mean, I knew you were responsible for a lot of hot CO2, but ...
09:39	LauJensen	wow, cheap shot
09:40	wlangstroth	it was right there - how could I not take it? Besides, there's no technical discussion that I would interrupt.
09:40	LauJensen	yea I completely understand, now get going, I believe there are trees that need hugging - right ABOOT now :)
09:42	Raynes	Oh. I accidentally did :reload-all instead of :reload.
09:42	Raynes	Good stuff.
09:43	wlangstroth	I believe you mean "A-BOAT", which is how we really say it. Hold on - there's an unhugged tree outside.
09:45	wlangstroth	LauJensen: where are you, anyway - I want to at least know what part of Scandahoovia I'm insulting
09:46	Raynes	Now the bot has reload functionality. No more shutting him down just to fix a bug.
09:49	powr-toc	Is there a variant of catch that allows you to catch nested
09:49	powr-toc	exceptions? I'm using c.c.sql and it throws RuntimeExceptions, yet
09:49	powr-toc	the errors we need to catch are causally 2 deep
09:50	LauJensen	wlangstroth: Im in the middle of everything, aka Denmark
09:50	clojurebot	what time is it?
09:50	underdev	Time to get ill!
09:50	Raynes	powr-toc: clojure.stacktrace.
09:50	rfg	Denmark FTW
09:50	Raynes	powr-toc: (catch Exception e (.getMessage (clojure.stacktrace/root-cause e)))
09:51	AWizzArd	SQL-Gurus: I want to insert the contents of a vector 'v' into a table 't'. Only at runtime it is clear what the table is and how many elements the vector contains. Is there a better solution than (format "INSERT INTO %s (%s)" t (str/join \, (repeat (count v) \?)))
09:52	AWizzArd	,(format "INSERT INTO %s (%s)" "table" (str/join \, (repeat 5 \?)))
09:52	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: str/join
09:52	AWizzArd	where str/join ==> clojure.contrib.string/join
09:52	AWizzArd	,clojure.contrib.string/join
09:52	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.string
09:53	zmila	AWizzArd - preferably you create sqls with different known tablenames, and then on run-time dispatch and select one of it
09:57	AWizzArd	zmila: clean and bureaucratic (:
09:57	AWizzArd	Hallo bendlas
09:57	bendlas	hi AWizzArd
09:58	zmila	AWizzArd - RDBS performs better with prepared statements, it's not good to parse query on each insert.
10:00	mattcodes	yikes never expect this many people in a clojure chat room, tried join expecting id be setting up the room :)
10:01	bendlas	yeah, clojure has taken off
10:01	chouser	mattcodes: only a couple years late :-)
10:02	mattcodes	probably working through rubylearning clojure 101 course and programming clojure book (using intellij as IDE). still struggling to see benefits although i guy i follow on twitter has said it runs their forex system
10:02	mattcodes	i guy --> 1 guy
10:03	chouser	mattcodes: benefits compared to what?
10:04	slyphon	chouser: a poke in the eye with a sharp stick
10:04	slyphon	chouser: oh, sorry, i meant VBScript
10:04	chouser	Clojure benefit #1: doesn't poke you in the eye
10:04	mattcodes	coming from working with c# since 1.0 and getting alright in it (not ayende or udi dahan level) when would you use it in production? i watch a presentation the other day that social aspect make programming language successful - wealth of resources, pool of applicants for jobs, getting comfortable with clojure now but still cant see much benefit over java/c#
10:05	mattcodes	so someone is using in forex, just for algorithms like moving average or to host whole app, you write an app with you and your other collegaue, try going monster.com and getting a replacement
10:05	slyphon	that's a very CTO way of looking at it
10:06	mattcodes	playing devils avocadate because as much as Im improving and groking the concept I need a real excuse other than kool aid to follow it. e.g. peers of mind go scala meet ups (and have for 12 months) but come back and architecture and write everything in c#
10:06	Raynes	mattcodes: Clojure isn't as buried as you might think.
10:06	chouser	just watching this now: http://vimeo.com/11236603 ...an excelent presentation of one of the kinds of problems Clojure helps you solve better than a lot of other languages.
10:06	slyphon	or, you and your buddy write monster.com in whatever language makes you most productive, sell it to a bunch of guys who will hire some team of monkeys to code it into PHP while you enjoy flying around the world on a plane-that-never-lands
10:06	Raynes	mattcodes: It's experienced extremely aggressive growth in the past year or so.
10:07	mattcodes	i want to like it - dont get me wrong - to be a polygot programmer surely is a good thing but i dunno perhaps im asking questions too early
10:07	mattcodes	will check out the vimeo vids
10:07	slyphon	mattcodes: i'm writing a scheduler for a render farm with it
10:08	stilkov_	Chousuke: Thanks for the O() table, excellent
10:08	mattcodes	slyphon, and what benefits do you get over Java? presumably your utilising the stm?, for normal (most) apps thread per request im still not swaded
10:09	Chousuke	stilkov_: feel free to reformat it if you want to publish it in a blog or something
10:09	mattcodes	is it just because we have got into a habit of abusing mutable objects in java/c# etc?
10:09	Chousuke	stilkov_: org-mode exports contain a lot of extraneous stuff but it should be pretty easy to find the table in there.
10:10	mattcodes	(sorry I am playing devils avodcate here)
10:10	stilkov_	Chousuke: thanks, will do and link here
10:11	Chousuke	stilkov_: don't link to my domain though. it's just a temporary storage for stuff.
10:12	Chousuke	mattcodes: immutability makes things easier even if your application isn't multithreaded
10:12	stilkov_	Chousuke: have you considered gh-pages?
10:13	Chousuke	stilkov_: I guess I could take a look.
10:13	mattcodes	is anyone writing CRUD style apps in clojure? blogs, forum software, crm, sales, etc..
10:15	fogus	chouser: As always, a great video by Stu.
10:17	chouser	I'm trying to take his intro slide as a lesson. I already know about protocols and yet by the time he was done with that slide I really wanted to watch the rest to see all the things he teased.
10:17	chouser	I want to write chapter intros like that. :-)
10:17	chouser	wait, is this a public forum?
10:18	Raynes	_ato is evil.
10:19	chouser	Raynes: heh, did he hack it?
10:20	Raynes	chouser: He executed brainfuck to set the bot's nick.
10:21	_ato	$bf +++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-----.------.++++++++.-------------------------------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---.++.------.+++++++++++++++.------------.+.++++++++++.
10:21	bfwin	{:ptr 0, :cells {0 115}}
10:21	bfwin	[13 78 73 67 75 32 108 105 107 101 116 104 105 115]
10:22	Chousuke	:P
10:23	fogus	That is a cool hack
10:25	fogus	I would have never thought of that in a million years
10:25	Raynes	It's fixed now.
10:25	Raynes	fogus: _ato is a beast.
10:25	fogus	Raynes: Good thing he's on our side... or is he? :O
10:25	Chousuke	how is the bf interpreter capable of changing the bot's nickname? :/
10:26	Raynes	fogus: :p
10:26	Raynes	Chousuke: \rNICK
10:26	Chousuke	aha
10:26	Raynes	None of my commands filter newlines and carriage returns. He's finding those flaws.
10:26	Chousuke	hmm
10:27	Chousuke	wonder if that works with clojurebot too
10:28	Raynes	Doubt it.
10:28	Chousuke	it filters newlines but I'm not sure about CRs
10:28	Chousuke	,(print "\rNICK testbot") ; something like this?
10:28	clojurebot	NICK testbot
10:28	Raynes	It filters them.
10:29	technomancy	LauJensen: it doesn't stop you from using lein with compojure, it just stops you from generating new *jure projects
10:29	technomancy	-
10:29	Raynes	technomancy: You're actually serious, aren't you. o.o
10:30	Chousuke	technomancy: I approve
10:30	wlangstroth	technomancy: cenjureship!
10:30	Chousuke	there was this new library called "matchure" and my first thought before "cool!" was "oh no, another bad pun :("
10:30	Raynes	I approve, but wow.
10:30	Raynes	Balls, man. You have them.
10:31	wlangstroth	oh, at least it wasn't "matjure"
10:31	Chousuke	well it's just as bad
10:31	fogus	Thankfully my super-secret project "jurey-rig" still works
10:32	wlangstroth	there's no filter for all bad puns
10:32	wlangstroth	fogus: that's terrible
10:32	wlangstroth	fogus: I died just a little inside
10:34	_ato	$ lein new injure-technomancy -- Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: *jure names are no longer allowed.
10:34	likethis	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
10:34	LauJensen	technomancy: Ok, so if this is not a joke, please explain why you should decide what my projects should be called and not me/my clients?
10:37	wlangstroth	LauJensen: because Phil rules (which should go in the error message, if you ask me)
10:37	Chousuke	LauJensen: because nothing will actually prevent you from naming your project whatever you want.
10:37	Chousuke	LauJensen: leiningen will just refuse to help you
10:37	technomancy	LauJensen: if you really want to you can create a project skeleton then rename it
10:37	technomancy	it's just ... encouragement =)
10:38	fogus	technomancy: I think you didn't go far enough... you should refuse any name that has a 'j' somewhere in the middle. :p
10:38	Chousuke	:P
10:38	technomancy	as to whether it's a joke or not, well it's an open question.
10:39	arkahn	how does sexpbot understand bf?
10:41	_ato	arkahn: http://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot/blob/master/src/sexpbot/plugins/brainfuck.clj
10:41	LauJensen	technomancy: I think its in poor taste. I agree that we've all had enough of these J-themed names, in fact I would probably vote for a renaming of Clojure itself, but I think its way over the line that you try to police it via restrictions on the use of lein
10:41	Raynes	arkahn: I didn't write that, by the way.
10:41	arkahn	_ato: excellent : ) Thank you
10:42	arkahn	Raynes: I'd still be proud ; )
10:44	technomancy	if there weren't a workaround I'd consider reverting it, but it's just an easter egg.
10:57	Licenser_	h
11:03	LauJensen	technomancy: thats it, I'm forking leiningen: Attention everybody, may I present: Leinjure
11:05	wlangstroth	LauJensen: will we all be forced to pronounce it "line-yoor"?
11:06	LauJensen	absojutely
11:06	technomancy	oh man, I should have seen that coming. =)
11:07	technomancy	actually you could just implement that as a plugin
11:07	spariev	LauJensen: you can do what you want in your leijure time :)
11:07	LauJensen	leinjure will projibit plugins
11:07	technomancy	"lein newjure" => it automatically adds "jure" to the name of the project you're trying to generate
11:07	LauJensen	perfect!
11:07	wlangstroth	technomancy: you're a genius!
11:08	LauJensen	gejinus!
11:08	wlangstroth	LauJensen: I wasn't going to do it
11:09	wlangstroth	I think we're only serving to illustrate the wisdom of technomancy's decision
11:20	stilkov_	Chousuke: http://www.innoq.com/blog/st/2010/04/clojure_performance_guarantees.html
11:20	sexpbot	" Clojure Performance Guarantees - Stefan Tilkov's Random Stuff"
11:23	chouser	that's a nice table
11:23	Chousuke	stilkov_: looks good. and hopefully is free of errors :P
11:23	chouser	is vector and queue conj really constant?
11:24	Chousuke	chouser: Rich said so
11:24	wlangstroth	stilkov_: nice chart - it's also true that this channel is great
11:24	AWizzArd	chouser: I understood Rich in that way: the performance has an upper limit. Thus, it is not constant, but typically below this limit.
11:24	spariev	chouser: and it's written in your book :)
11:25	spariev	about queue, at least
11:25	LauJensen	chojer: read the logs from 2 hours ago approx
11:25	Chousuke	:P
11:25	chouser	all the near-constant things have upper limits too
11:25	zmila	stilkov_, please add some colors to the table cells - according to performance
11:26	chouser	our book isn't yet perfect... ;-)
11:26	stilkov_	zmila: good idea
11:26	Chousuke	chouser: I think they might be something like initially linear but constant after n > something.
11:28	chouser	I see calls in PersistentVector.cons() to newPath and pushTail, which are both recursive.
11:28	chouser	So I'm surprised those are O(1). But far be it from me to contradict rhickey.
11:28	wlangstroth	Chousuke: would that n have to do with the 32-bit hash implementation?
11:28	Chousuke	wlangstroth: no?
11:29	AWizzArd	chouser: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-04-28.html#06:41
11:29	sexpbot	"#clojure log - Apr 28 2010"
11:32	rhickey	chouser: pushTail will only be called 1x in 32
11:32	wlangstroth	Chousuke: I mean what's the limit on bagwell hash tries?
11:32	Chousuke	wlangstroth: I'm the wrong person to ask about such things
11:33	chouser	stilkov_: rather than saying "increases linearly" in the definition of "linear", you might consider saying "when the collection is twice as large the operation takes twice as long"
11:33	jowag	so, it seems that if I specify :library-path "/" in a project.clj, "lein clean" will delete my filesystem :)
11:33	chouser	rhickey: so (log32 n)/32 ?
11:34	Chousuke	you might want to clarify the "(e.g. 3.9 as long for a million elements than for 10 instead of 6)" too since it took me a long time to understand what that meant :P
11:34	Chousuke	stilkov_: that was for you ^
11:34	stilkov_	chouser: agreed on both parts - it doesn't help there's a "times" missing ;-)
11:36	rhickey	chouser: but log32N is always less than 32 for all data sizes we might consider
11:38	rhickey	stilkov: that 3.9 times as long is a bit disconcerting. It is important to look at the absolutes rather than ratios. to get to 1 milltion: 1 hop from 32 to 1k, one hop from 1k to 32k, 1 hop from 32k to 1million = 3 hops
11:39	rhickey	1 billion = 5 hops
11:39	chouser	ok, I see.
11:40	rhickey	binary tree is 20 hops to 1million
11:40	AWizzArd	and 1 msec ==> 3k hops?
11:40	rhickey	AWizzArd: ?
11:43	AWizzArd	,(time (let [hm (hash-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3)] (dotimes [i 1000000] (get :b hm))))
11:43	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 209.814 msecs"
11:43	AWizzArd	,(double (/ 1000000 209.814))
11:44	clojurebot	4766.126187956953
11:44	rhickey	oh please
11:44	AWizzArd	4766 gets per msec
11:44	rhickey	let's not waste time with microbenchmarks again
11:45	AWizzArd	Why is it then important how many hops we need to one million/billion?
11:48	chouser	AWizzArd: that has to do with relative amount of work and is useful for choosing the correct collection/algorithm combination
11:49	AWizzArd	Yes, though "hops" is an abstract thing for my poor human brain. "Time" says me more.
11:49	chouser	actual timing of large numbers of trivial operations depends on a lot of variables, most of which are both hard to control for and hard to control, and very few of which impact algorithm decisions
11:50	sattvik	AWizzArd: When deciding on a data structure for a given purpose, it is important to know the algorithmic performance guarantees of the structure. With that information and knowledge about how the structure will be used, the correct structure can be chosen. Ops/sec don't really tell you anything; they are highly dependent on the conditions of the test. Not least of all, they are unrealistic for most scenarios.
11:50	AWizzArd	When I hear: you can do 5k gets on Maps up to 100k elements, 3k gets on maps to 1 mio elements and 2k gets on maps to 1 bil elements, all per msec, then this gives me some information that I understand (:
11:50	AWizzArd	sattvik: yes
11:50	rhickey	AWizzArd: and when the optimizer figures out that code doesn't do anything and optimizes it to instant, will it be very fast then?
11:50	wlangstroth	AWizzArd: but then you'd have to follow that up with your system configuration stats
11:51	rhickey	I've been auditing some of the seq fns for inclusion in core, not sure I want to include indexed
11:51	rhickey	I think it leads to bad perf code
11:51	rhickey	I instead have map-indexed, where the mapping fn will get passed the index and the item
11:52	rhickey	indexed == (comp map-index vector)
11:52	rhickey	er, map-indexed
11:53	chouser	I wish I had all the clojure code I'd ever written indexed somewhere by idiom.
11:53	clojurebot	Yes, Clojure can do that!
11:54	AWizzArd	^^
11:54	chouser	Then I could find the 5 places I've used indexed and see how well map-indexed would fit.
11:54	rhickey	thinking about the filter analogue, I've come up with keep, like filter, but yields the result of the function if truthy, rather than the item
11:54	rhickey	then we could have keep-indexed as well
11:54	chouser	ooh, for (filter identity (map ...))
11:55	hiredman	grep --include ".clj" -R indexed src/
11:55	wlangstroth	rhickey: I've reached for something like that twice now, so I'd be all for that
11:55	chouser	any chance of getting multi-seq walking on any of these? keep in particular.
11:55	wlangstroth	(keep, that is)
11:56	stilkov_	rhickey: not sure whether my understanding of hop is correct
11:57	stilkov_	the amount of time for some operation increases with the number of elements, either not at all, or logarithmically, or linearly, or something we don't hope for
11:58	rhickey	stilkov_: being trees, the cost of trees increases with their depth, one hop is nav from node to node
11:59	stilkov_	and the depth increases with log32(n) - right?
11:59	rhickey	stilkov_: you can compare the rations between log32 and log2, but it doesn't tell the absolute value story well
11:59	zakwilson	keywords are substantially faster as map keys than strings, right?
11:59	stilkov_	rhickey: ah, so you're not saying my explanation is wrong, just misleading
12:00	rhickey	e.g. in a binary tree, going from 33 items in the tree to 1 million mean going from 5 hops to twenty, in a clojure data structure it means going from 3 hops to 3 hops - same cost
12:01	ordnungswidrig	rhickey: so why is 32 the sweet spot?
12:03	rhickey	and 1-32 all take the same cost, no ratios at all, so it is not a continuum. Also in absolute terms, at max a Clojure tree (of a billion items) will take as many node navs as a binary tree with 32 items
12:05	rhickey	oops sorry, s.b. 3 hops to 4 hops above
12:05	stilkov_	3.9 something
12:05	stilkov_	rhickey: OK, will update accordingly. Thanks for the explanation.
12:06	dnolen	rhickey: ++ for map-indexed. I don't need indexed collections often, but when I do, that would be nicer than using indexed which is always a bit of a pain.
12:09	technomancy	I guess the only problem with map-indexed vs indexed + map is that then you have to have -indexed versions of all your seq-consuming functions, right?
12:10	rhickey	technomancy: you can always (map-indexed vector...), it is simply a better primitive than indexed
12:11	technomancy	oh sure, that makes sense
12:12	rhickey	stilkov_: in practice people will not see lookup perf change significantly with data structure size:
12:12	rhickey	(let [v1k (into [] (range 10))
12:12	rhickey	v1m (into [] (range 1000000))]
12:12	rhickey	(time (dotimes [_ 1000000] (rand-nth v1k)))
12:12	rhickey	(time (dotimes [_ 1000000] (rand-nth v1m))))
12:12	rhickey	"Elapsed time: 257.341 msecs"
12:12	rhickey	"Elapsed time: 461.878 msecs"
12:12	technomancy	still a little awkward more if you want to use it in a doseq, but maybe it'll grow on me. I like the concept.
12:13	stilkov_	rhickey: so the "near-constant" moniker seems very much justified
12:14	eyeris	The docs give the declaration (struct-map s & inits). Could someone translate this to english?
12:14	rhickey	stilkov_: right, even though some aspect is growing with a logarithmic relationship to the size, it becomes dominated by the constant factors
12:14	eyeris	I'm clearly not understaning what is expected for inits.
12:15	eyeris	As a lisp-noob I thought & inits meant "and the rest of the arguments are converted to a list"
12:15	eyeris	So I tried (struct-map my-declared-struct :key1 val1 :key2 val2)
12:15	hiredman	the docs for what?
12:16	eyeris	The api docs on the web site.
12:16	eyeris	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/struct
12:16	hiredman	right, but the api docs cover EVERYTHING
12:16	hiredman	so specificly that is the docstring on struct
12:16	eyeris	Or, for (struct-map)
12:16	Chousuke	eyeris: the list of inits is a list of init values, not a list of key/val pairs
12:17	hiredman	,struct-map
12:17	clojurebot	#<core$struct_map__5559 clojure.core$struct_map__5559@323ee8>
12:17	hiredman	,(doc struct-map)
12:17	clojurebot	"([s & inits]); Returns a new structmap instance with the keys of the structure-basis. keyvals may contain all, some or none of the basis keys - where values are not supplied they will default to nil. keyvals can also contain keys not in the basis."
12:17	hiredman	eyeris: looks like you are confusing struct-map and struct
12:17	eyeris	So I just have to supply values for the keys in the order that their appear in defstruct?
12:17	Chousuke	huh. that docstring is confused
12:18	Chousuke	eyeris: yes
12:18	stilkov_	,(do (defstruct my-declared-struct :key1 :key2) (struct-map my-declared-struct :key1 1 :key2 2))
12:18	clojurebot	DENIED
12:18	Chousuke	(doc struct)
12:18	clojurebot	"([s & vals]); Returns a new structmap instance with the keys of the structure-basis. vals must be supplied for basis keys in order - where values are not supplied they will default to nil."
12:18	stilkov_	eyeris: yields {:key1 1, :key2 2} in my REPL
12:19	Chousuke	right, so struct-map takes k/v pairs (though the docstring is confusing) and struct takes init vals
12:20	rhickey	chouser: you can extend them to N colls as a patch if you like :)
12:20	stilkov_	eyeris: so what problem do you run into with your code?
12:20	eyeris	stilkov_: I was initially confusing struct and struct-map as hiredman pointed out.
12:21	AWizzArd	rhickey: do you plan to add a Foo/create to records before 1.2?
12:22	rhickey	AWizzArd: dunno
12:22	eyeris	I initially used your invocation with struct instead of struct-map. Assuming that I misunderstood the & notation, reading the word keyvals in the struct-map documentation, I put my :key val sequence into a map. I realized that I needed struct-map, but then I forgot to remove the map braces :)
12:25	AWizzArd	rhickey: in principle it could be advantageous to ship 1.2 without that and just wait a while and see what the users are doing. New features can be added later. But then print-dup could be adpoted maybe, to not print as #=(user.Foo/create {:x 1000})
13:26	slyphon	chouser: around?
13:26	chouser	w'sup?
13:26	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
13:26	slyphon	chouser: could you look at something for me and tell me if i'm "doing it wrong"?
13:27	slyphon	https://gist.github.com/9ddaa20d37a4a4be4d07
13:27	KirinDave_	Oh shit
13:28	slyphon	chouser: i'm just not sure if i'm missing something, like line 100
13:28	slyphon	stylistically speaking
13:28	slyphon	does this look like what clojure test code should look like?
13:29	chouser	yeah, I'm not the best person to ask about this.
13:29	slyphon	oh :)
13:30	slyphon	i guess it's just that i don't work with a bunch of other clojure developers, and i know i'm learning, so i always have that voice in the back of my head saying "you're doing it wrong"
13:30	digash	(defn ^bytes [] (byte-array 10)) (String. (bytes10))
13:30	chouser	slyphon: oh, it's good to ask, but I haven't done enough with clojure.test to really know the idioms
13:30	digash	throws an exception Unable to resolve classname: clojure.core$bytes__4916@27443628
13:30	digash
13:30	slyphon	chouser: who do you think i should ask?
13:31	chessguy	so someone at my work is looking for implementations of this function, but i don't know the clojure libraries well enough to do it without a painstaking search
13:31	digash	does anybody know why? I am on the latest 1.2
13:31	chessguy	here's the ruby implementation
13:31	chessguy	str.split('/').reject(&:blank?).reverse.join(', ')
13:31	chessguy	pretty darn expressive
13:31	slyphon	that's "rails"
13:32	slyphon	so some of the expressiveness has been handed to you
13:32	chessguy	well, sure you can use libraries
13:33	chessguy	doesn't make it a different language
13:33	chouser	does &:blank? just match empty strings or also whitespace?
13:33	chessguy	empty strings
13:33	slyphon	blank means "is nil or empty string"
13:33	slyphon	doesn't barf on nil
13:34	chouser	(->> "abc/def/ghi" (.split #"/") (remove empty?) reverse (str/join ", "))
13:34	slyphon	wuuuuu!
13:35	slyphon	(.split #"/") really?
13:35	slyphon	nice
13:35	chessguy	,((->> "abc/def/ghi" (.split #"/") (remove empty?) reverse (str/join ", ")) "/C=US/O=U.S. Government/OU=DoD/OU=CENTCOM/OU=People/CN=Smith Bob A xyz123")
13:35	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: str/join
13:36	slyphon	HAH
13:36	slyphon	chessguy: you're leaking classified information there
13:36	chessguy	about Bob Smith?
13:36	slyphon	joke
13:36	zakwilson	,(reverse (filter #(not (= "" %)) (.split "foo/bar/baz//qux" "/")))
13:36	clojurebot	("qux" "baz" "bar" "foo")
13:37	licoresse	emacs clojure-test-mode, is that working well with 1.2?
13:37	zakwilson	,(reverse (remove empty? (.split "foo/bar/baz//qux" "/")))
13:37	clojurebot	("qux" "baz" "bar" "foo")
13:37	licoresse	I'm new to tests and clojure
13:38	chouser	zakwilson: I recommend (.split #"regex" "string") over (.split "string" "regex-in-a-string")
13:39	zakwilson	chouser is more of an authority than I am. Listen to him.
13:39	dnolen	(->> "abc/def/ghi" (split #"/") (remove blank?) reverse (join ", "))
13:39	dnolen	if you're using clojure-contrib 1.2.0
13:40	chessguy	that's nice
13:40	chessguy	though i'd rather have a function i could pass the string into
13:40	slyphon	uh
13:40	slyphon	you just wrap the above in (fn blah [s] ...)
13:40	chessguy	yeah, i know
13:41	chessguy	but it's not that way now
13:41	zakwilson	,(#(->> % (split #"/") (remove blank?) reverse (join ", ")) "foo/bar/baz//qux")
13:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: join in this context
13:41	zakwilson	,(#(reverse (filter #(not (= "" %)) (.split #"/" %))) "foo/bar/baz//qux")
13:41	clojurebot	Nested #()s are not allowed
13:42	zakwilson	,(fn [x] (reverse (filter #(not (= "" %)) (.split #"/" x))) "foo/bar/baz//qux")
13:42	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__12354$fn__12356 sandbox$eval__12354$fn__12356@174c643>
13:42	zakwilson	,((fn [x] (reverse (filter #(not (= "" %)) (.split #"/" x)))) "foo/bar/baz//qux")
13:42	clojurebot	("qux" "baz" "bar" "foo")
13:42	zakwilson	There... NOW it has enough parens to be proper Lisp!
13:43	slyphon	zakwilson: hah!
13:43	chessguy	lol
13:46	licoresse	how do I organize the test-files under test/ ? SHould I follow the same directory-structure as my clj files? Should there be a 1-to-1 mapping of source and test-source?
13:46	licoresse	Trying to figure out the C-c t command in clojure-test-mode
13:47	licoresse	(the one that switches from source to test-source)
13:48	technomancy	licoresse: the test toggle is kinda half-baked; there aren't any good conventions yet for mapping between test and impl.
13:48	licoresse	technomancy: ok
13:49	licoresse	That means, I should'nt worry too much about where to put the tests...
13:49	licoresse	as long as they are under test/
13:49	licoresse	technomancy: correct?
13:49	technomancy	I like to have src/foo/bar.clj map to test/foo/test-bar.clj personally, but yeah, anything under test/ works
13:50	stuartsierra	technomancy: I liked Halloway's suggestion of test/foo/bar_test.clj, results in better sorting
13:50	technomancy	stuartsierra: sure, good point.
13:51	licoresse	stuartsierra: yes
13:51	technomancy	we currently have test/foo/test/bar.clj, which is lousy because stack traces often just give the last segment, so you can't distinguish between impl and test. =\
13:52	wlangstroth	chouser: for the above matching, is there any reason not to use re-seq?
13:53	Borkdude	What's the deal with str-utils and str-utils2, which should I use?
13:53	chouser	wlangstroth: not really -- just which is more natural for the regex you want. they're sort of complements of each other.
13:55	stuartsierra	Borkdude: neither :)
13:55	stuartsierra	Borkdude: In 1.2, both are deprecated in favor of c.c.string.
13:55	Borkdude	stuartsierra: just use the things you need from either or both?
13:55	Borkdude	oh
13:56	stuartsierra	Borkdude: str-utils2 will be faster than str-utils(1), should support all the same functionality.
13:56	Borkdude	how do I disuse a namespace?
13:56	stuartsierra	You mean unmap the symbols you referred with "use"?
13:56	Borkdude	yes
13:57	stuartsierra	Can't. Just create a new namespace to work in or restart the REPL.
13:57	Borkdude	ah
13:57	chouser	(re-seq #"[^/]+" txt) seems clumsier than (.split #"/" txt) ...besides not meaning exactly the same thing
13:57	kotarak	(doc ns-unmap)
13:57	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace."
13:57	kotarak	Borkdude: could be tedious
13:58	kotarak	(doc ns-interns)
13:58	clojurebot	"([ns]); Returns a map of the intern mappings for the namespace."
13:58	Borkdude	stuartsierra: I made a new ns and used c.c.string, I get this:
13:58	Borkdude	repeat already refers to: #'clojure.core/repeat in namespace: user2
13:58	stuartsierra	oh yeah
13:59	stuartsierra	c.c.string contains names that clash with core
13:59	stuartsierra	You can't "use" it without ":only".
13:59	stuartsierra	Or, alternately, "(require '[c.c.string :as s])"
14:00	wlangstroth	chouser: right, thanks
14:00	mabes	does anyone know of a congomongo clojure 1.2 compat fork? There doesn't appear to be any on github or clojars...
14:02	Borkdude	I was just wondering if split also was a function in c.c.string or if it still should be called using direct java interop
14:03	Borkdude	but apparently it's not in there
14:03	kotarak	mabes: I seem to remember I used it with 1.2. What problem do you see?
14:03	mabes	kotarak: I haven't dug into it yet, but when I try to 'use' it I get: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V (coerce.clj:1)
14:04	stuartsierra	Borkdude: "split" is in c.c.string
14:04	kotarak	mabes: then you have to recompile it with 1.2 (or use the source files directly). I'm not sure whether it uses gen-class. I think, that part is in Java and hence independent of the clojure version
14:05	mabes	kotarak: ah, that makes sense. I'll try recompiling it with 1.2 update any require/use statements if needed.
14:07	wlangstroth	does anyone know if the precise difference between using a list and a vector with use/require is documented anywhere?
14:07	stuartsierra	there is no difference
14:08	stuartsierra	the implementation doesn't care
14:08	somnium	mabes: my branch on clojars isnt aot-compiled, not sure of the forks. planning to overhaul it 1.2rc is available, but Ive heard reports of it working with 1.2 as is
14:08	Borkdude	stuartsierra: can you use :only within a normal (use ...)?
14:09	chouser	Borkdude: yes, please always use :only anytime you use 'use'
14:09	wlangstroth	stuartsierra: okay, thanks - I think I was getting confused with the examples
14:12	lambdatronic	hi folks. I've got a really confusing map problem.
14:12	Borkdude	chouser: can you give an example of (use ...) with :only then? I never can remember the syntax
14:13	lambdatronic	@borkdude: (:use [foo.bar.baz :only (fun1 fun2 fun3)])
14:13	chouser	exactly
14:13	somnium	anyone know of any examples of using datalog? and does it support backtracking?
14:14	chouser	:as works too. I basically never use 'require' anymore, just (:use [foo.bar :as bar :only []])
14:15	wlangstroth	lambdatronic: confusing map problem?
14:15	Borkdude	lambdatronic: that is not what I meant
14:15	lambdatronic	So...for some deeply mysterious (to me anyway) reason, I've got a map of vectors to structs: {[0 0] s1, [0 1] s2, ... [n m] sN}; however, I can't look up the structs by key in this map. I create a vector [0 1] (or whatever) and attempt (mymap [0 1]) and I'm just getting nils.
14:15	Borkdude	I mean (use ...), not (:use ...)
14:16	lambdatronic	now, I've even attempted = tests between the vector I create and the keys in the map, and they're coming up =.
14:16	lambdatronic	But still...just nils.
14:16	lambdatronic	I'm using Clojure 1.1.0
14:16	lambdatronic	master
14:17	lambdatronic	Am I missing something totally obvious here?
14:18	somnium	,(let [m {[0 1] :a} k [0 1]] (m k))
14:18	clojurebot	:a
14:18	stuartsierra	Borkdude: (use...) is the same as (ns ... (:use ...)) except you have to quote all the symbols.
14:19	lambdatronic	@somnium right, I tried that, and it works from the REPL.
14:19	lambdatronic	so there's something going wrong inside my function that I can't suss out.
14:19	somnium	lambdatronic: maybe pastie the problematic section?
14:19	lambdatronic	will do. just a sec.
14:21	Borkdude	stuartsierra: ah tnx
14:21	Borkdude	gtg
14:22	chouser	is there a better way to write #(compare (first %1) (first %2)) ?
14:23	chouser	I wrote a 'compare-by' to do that, but I wonder if I missed something like that in core somewhere.
14:23	opqdonut	(defn comparing [f] #(compare (f %1) (f %2))), and then use (comparing first)
14:23	opqdonut	:)
14:23	chouser	yeah
14:23	chouser	's what I did. :-)
14:23	slyphon	so, if i wanted to encapsulate a jms Consumer and present it as a seq of messages, how would i go about doing that?
14:23	chouser	actually, I used defn :-P
14:24	chouser	#(apply compare (map f %&)) meh
14:25	slyphon	ooh
14:25	slyphon	take-while...kinda...
14:26	wlangstroth	chouser: by "better" do you mean faster? The first one reads fine, is what I mean
14:26	slyphon	chouser: any insights into how to go about using lazy-seq
14:26	slyphon	?
14:26	chouser	no, not faster. more succinct, abstracted
14:27	slyphon	little. yellow. different. clojure.
14:27	chouser	slyphon: One rarely needs to use lazy-seq directly.
14:27	slyphon	hrm
14:28	mabes	somnium: I just tried bumping the clojure deps to 1.2 in the congomongo project itself, and it is blowing up when I try to use it with the same error (java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V (coerce.clj:1)) This is with the latest 1.2 so something may have changed since the last time someone tried using it with 1.2
14:28	slyphon	i basically want to yield (.receive consumer) until it returns nil (marking the end of the sequence)
14:28	mabes	somnium: this is all I did: http://github.com/bmabey/congomongo/commit/67647703384239b7e13a71a026c77c307f55e64c
14:30	slyphon	anyone?
14:31	chouser	(take-while identity (repeatedly #(.receive consumer)))
14:32	chouser	that'll stop on a false too
14:32	slyphon	hah
14:32	zakwilson	,(identity 4)
14:32	clojurebot	4
14:32	slyphon	excellent, i was about to use "for"
14:32	zakwilson	,(identity 'foo)
14:32	clojurebot	foo
14:32	zakwilson	this relies on the property that nil is treated as false, and everything that isn't nil or false is treated as true
14:33	slyphon	that much i get
14:33	slyphon	chouser: thanks
14:34	chouser	you could use (complement nil?) if you need to allow false's to get through
14:34	slyphon	hmm
14:34	slyphon	nah, anything that gets through should be a Message
14:34	slyphon	but yeah
14:40	somnium	mabes: ah, you dont need user in the project.clj. I should take that out. may need to rename some things with c.c.1.2-master though.
14:48	lambdatronic	alright.
14:48	lambdatronic	so I created a minimal test case and pasted it here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/98512
14:48	lambdatronic	Just load it into a repl and run (clj-span.test/test-me)
14:49	lambdatronic	You should be able to see that the problem is in whatever is coming out of find-viewpath.
14:49	lambdatronic	Those vectors won't work as keys in the evil-map, although literal vectors do.
14:49	lambdatronic	Any help I can get here would be deeply appreciated. This bug has been biting me for a few days now.
14:51	lambdatronic	Don't suppose anyone is up for taking this case?
14:59	slyphon	you know what would be cool in clojure-mode, highlighting #_ comments
14:59	lambdatronic	@slyphon agreed
14:59	tcrayford	explain #_ comments
15:00	lambdatronic	it's a reader macro that blocks the reader from reading the next form
15:00	LauJensen	If you haven't heard about protocols, here's the 101: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2010/04/prototurtle-the-tale-of-the-bleeding-turtle/
15:00	sexpbot	"ProtoTurtle — The tale of the bleeding turtle \| BEST IN CLASS"
15:00	lambdatronic	so #_(foo bar baz) is just entirely skipped
15:00	slyphon	,(#_(list :a :b) (list :c :d))
15:00	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
15:00	slyphon	hrm
15:00	tcrayford	I might have a look
15:00	slyphon	,([#_(list :a :b) (list :c :d)])
15:00	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentVector
15:01	slyphon	word?
15:01	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/54847
15:02	slyphon	,(concat (str "foo") (str "bar"))
15:02	clojurebot	(\f \o \o \b \a \r)
15:02	slyphon	,(concat #_(str "foo") (str "bar"))
15:02	clojurebot	(\b \a \r)
15:02	tcrayford	gotcha
15:02	chouser	,(concat (comment (str "foo")) (str "bar"))
15:02	clojurebot	(\b \a \r)
15:03	slyphon	yeah, it doesn't highlight (comment) either
15:03	slyphon	:)
15:03	chouser	,(+ 1 2 #_(whoa horsey!) 3)
15:03	clojurebot	6
15:03	slyphon	(it does in vim-clojure)
15:03	tcrayford	I have some trouble with clojure mode highlighting mutliline strings with sexps in them
15:03	stuartsierra	First cut at 1.1 backwards compatibility from 1.2 contrib to 1.1 contrib is in master now.
15:03	chouser	,(+ 1 2 (comment (whoa horsey!)) 3)
15:03	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
15:03	slyphon	riiigh
15:03	slyphon	t
15:03	chouser	stuartsierra: thanks for doing that. I'm sure it'll ease some pain.
15:04	tcrayford	stuartsierra: is the api for lazytest final?
15:04	stuartsierra	I haven't added any deprecation warnings yet, interested to see if anything happens with the metadata idea on the list.
15:04	stuartsierra	tcrayford: no
15:04	tcrayford	I'm mostly concerned about how results look
15:05	tcrayford	was thinking of writing a runner for emacs (something like clojure-test-mode)
15:05	stuartsierra	you mean the output of spec-report?
15:05	mabes	stuartsierra: so no deprecation warnings, but all c.c.1.1 will work on 1.2?
15:05	stuartsierra	mabes: as of this moment, yes. Deprecation warnings may get added.
15:05	tcrayford	yeah, I think
15:06	stuartsierra	tcrayford: the report format is the least developed part; thus most likely to change.
15:06	stuartsierra	tcrayford: if you were going to write a runner, I'd prefer it operate directly on the output record types, e.g. TestResultContainer
15:07	stuartsierra	But even those are not API-stable right now.
15:07	tcrayford	aye
15:07	tcrayford	once those are, I'll have a crack
15:07	tcrayford	or if I get bored in the meantime
15:07	stuartsierra	I don't think it will change significantly from this point, but no promises.
15:08	tcrayford	ofc
15:08	tcrayford	I might give it a go when these exams are over
15:09	stuartsierra	Someone wrote an auditory test monitor: http://is.gd/bJ5Yb
15:09	sexpbot	"bgruber's lazytest-listen at master - GitHub"
15:10	tcrayford	heh
15:10	tcrayford	that's pretty cool
15:10	tcrayford	I like having green bar red bar type stuff (like java IDEs) though
15:11	stuartsierra	yeah, I thought about doing a little swing widget with that
15:12	webben	tcrayford: I've seen an implementation of those bars for vim.
15:12	tcrayford	you can get something similar out of emacs. I hacked clojure-test-mode to do that
15:12	tcrayford	webben: by @garybernhardt probably, the inspiration for my one
15:12	webben	tcrayford: maybe
15:13	tcrayford	A swing widget might be interesting
15:13	tcrayford	I keep on getting tempted to write a clojure ide in clojure
15:14	webben	you could update waterfront
15:14	somnium	so, as an experiment, I took a chunk of code that used a combination of refs and thread-local-vars, and rewrote it with a state monad.
15:14	somnium	Aside from the moral victory of being completely stateless, they looked almost identical. The only real gain seemed to be zero bugs related to laziness under the monad.
15:15	slyphon	hrm, it seems like clojure.test sometimes swallows exceptions
15:15	mabes	somnium: fyi, this commit updates congomongo to c.c 1.2: http://github.com/bmabey/congomongo/commit/8798072f28d563b22d4d18553ab8c03e858d74bb
15:16	somnium	mabes: cool
15:16	tcrayford	somnium: zero (apparent) bugs is a very nice thing to have no?
15:17	mabes	stuartsierra: do you see lazy-test and circumspec ever merging or collaborating more closely? i.e. the watcher functionality seems to be duplicated to both projects.
15:18	tcrayford	iirc stu halloway is depreceating circumspec at some point soon
15:18	tcrayford	in favour of lazy-test
15:18	stuartsierra	mabes: lazytest is intended to subsume circumspec
15:18	stuartsierra	and eventually replace clojure.test
15:19	tcrayford	would clojure-core be tested with lazytest at that point?
15:19	mabes	stuartsierra: ah, ok. That makes sense.
15:19	stuartsierra	tcrayford: maybe
15:19	mabes	stuartsierra: in that intention shared by stuart? (the other stuart)
15:19	stuartsierra	mabes: yes
15:20	stuartsierra	Basically, we came at it from opposite directions.
15:20	stuartsierra	S. Halloway wrote circumspec by adding features he wanted in clojure.test.
15:20	stuartsierra	I started by rewriting the core internals from scratch.
15:20	mabes	stuartsierra: yeah. I have been trying out circumspec (I'm a big rspec user) and I like certain things about it.. the macro nature of it has gotten in the ways at times
15:21	stuartsierra	With lazytest, I hope to provide convenient macros for all the common cases but open the door for constructing tests functionally as needed.
15:21	stuartsierra	I'm not there yet.
15:21	slyphon	:)
15:21	slyphon	stuartsierra: what are you doing talking in here then? go!
15:21	stuartsierra	heh
15:22	slyphon	;)
15:22	stuartsierra	seriously, I do need some feedback. What works about the current syntax, what doesn't work, ...?
15:22	slyphon	where is it?
15:22	slyphon	clojars?
15:22	tcrayford	http://github.com/stuartsierra/lazytest
15:23	tcrayford	I'm not sure about the `is` macro's syntax
15:23	tcrayford	the wording feels a little strange (coming from rspec anyway)
15:23	stuartsierra	yeah
15:23	mabes	stuartsierra: well.. I haven't taken too close a look at lazytest.. but from what I have seen it looks nice.
15:24	stuartsierra	tcrayford: I tried "should" but that was too long
15:24	mabes	Along those lines.. I didn't like how the word "spec" simply replaced "test"
15:24	tcrayford	heh
15:24	stuartsierra	tcrayford: and I don't like Rspec's habit of mixing language keywords in with doc strings
15:24	tcrayford	maybe the project should be called lazyspec
15:24	stuartsierra	mabes: originally "spec" was "testing" actually
15:24	mabes	in rspec we originally had "specify" (still there I think but not used by many)
15:25	stuartsierra	I renamed it to "spec" because it was shorter. "test" is already taken in clojure.core
15:25	tcrayford	if lazytest replace clojure.test, spec would get renamed to test?
15:25	stuartsierra	clojure.core/test has been around since 1.0, although it doesn't do much
15:26	stuartsierra	I thought about making the syntax even more abstract, like renaming "spec" to "T" (for test) and "is" to "A" (for assertion)
15:26	mabes	right, well, so the whole point of rpsec, BDD in general, was to have the tests read like an english sentence. So, if you are trying to make it like rspec I think taking an approach similar to circuspec (as far as syntax is concerned) makes more sense IMO.. Otherwise I don't see value in using BDD terminology as opposed to traditional TDD...
15:27	stuartsierra	mabes: I'm trying to do BDD-style english sentences. The difference from Rspec or circumspec is that the macro names aren't part of the sentence.
15:28	tcrayford	I liked circumspecs old munging of predicates (personally), but it was kinda klutzy
15:28	stuartsierra	I found that Rspec forced me to write sentences in a particular way, not necessarily the most clear.
15:28	mabes	BTW.. I'm very opinionated in this area, so please don't take this as criticisms against all your hard work on it
15:28	stuartsierra	not at all
15:29	stuartsierra	I want to discuss this kind of stuff, to figure out what direction I should go.
15:29	somnium	tcrayford: it was cool to be able to save a set of statements and have the luxury of running (seemingly) side-effecty code under any previous snapshot, with-out needing set-up/tear-down macros or doalls.
15:30	tcrayford	somnium: aye. Was this on congomongo or some other code I can have a look at?
15:30	somnium	tcrayford: ah, this is for a compiler experiment that has gone on for far too long, but may be out soon :/
15:31	tcrayford	I'd be interested in seeing the monady stuff
15:31	tcrayford	monads really are very cool
15:32	wlangstroth	stuartsierra: with that naming convention, I'm sure you would get some takers. Just call it "T&A"
15:32	stuartsierra	ha!
15:32	mabes	I know they aren't idomatic clojure but they seem like a tool that any FP programmer should have in their toolbox (disclaimer: I just started to learn about mondas)
15:33	tcrayford	its kinda funny how simple they are
15:33	tcrayford	and how powerful
15:34	somnium	tcrayford: the core of its here, (I found c.c.monads to be slightly too magical)
15:34	somnium	http://gist.github.com/360303
15:34	tcrayford	somnium: cheers
15:34	slyphon	so, it seems there's no simple way to "inherit" a defmulti stack
15:34	slyphon	and overload only one or two of the methods within
15:34	somnium	Ill admit to probably trying too hard to make it look haskell :)
15:35	tcrayford	heh, do notation in clojure :P
15:35	tcrayford	I was more interested in the code that used the state monad, as opposed to the implementation of it :P
15:35	tcrayford	but still interesting
15:36	mabes	stuartsierra: WRT direction of lazy-test.. I think it would be very valuable to have the specs be allowed (encouraged?) to be written in such a way that when tacked onto the metadata of that function they provide great documentation...
15:36	zakwilson	I'm uncertain about the utility of monads in most Clojure code, but one thing I'd like to see in a dynamically-typed language is a deeply-integrated maybe type.
15:36	mabes	stuartsierra: for example, this doco plugin for rspec allows that for ruby: http://lsegal.github.com/yard-spec-plugin/
15:36	tcrayford	mabes: have you seen Ioke's documentation?
15:36	mabes	tcrayford: Yes! that is exactly what I'm talking about
15:36	stuartsierra	mabes: I tried that in clojure.test and nobody used it.
15:37	tcrayford	mabes: so so cool for understanding the language
15:37	mabes	tcrayford: except I don't like the word "should" in documenation
15:37	tcrayford	aye
15:37	tcrayford	docs are what it DOES
15:37	stuartsierra	mabes: The problem is it bloats your source code files, especially when the tests/specs depend on external libraries that the main code doesn't need.
15:38	mabes	I stopped using "should" in any of my specs once I realized that they are executable documentation and should be written as such
15:38	tcrayford	stuartsierra: I think he meant having it in external files, just referencing implementation files
15:39	mabes	stuartsierra: seems like that would be an acceptable trade-off for development. For production I don't think you would ship the extra meta-data.
15:39	stuartsierra	clojure.test supports that explicitly, the "with-test" macro.
15:39	stuartsierra	But nobody uses it.
15:39	stuartsierra	I tried using it myself and found it cluttered the source too much.
15:40	mabes	stuartsierra: does that append the tests to the metadata?
15:40	stuartsierra	yes
15:41	tcrayford	does anybody here have any ide/tooling type things they'd like to see added to emacs for clojure?
15:42	mabes	stuartsierra: hmm.. well, the problem I am running into is that I/my team is duplicating a lot of the docstring verbage in the tests. So, it seems natural to pull the test verbage (not the entire tests) out into some metadata. Plus docstrings tend to get stale more than the test descriptions do...
15:42	stuartsierra	tcrayford, mabes: What I'm working toward now is having specs/tests in a separate file from the main source, but defined in such a way that they attach themselves to metadata in the main source. The "describe" macro will be part of this, with significant changes.
15:42	somnium	Im curious, in general is (comp f g) slower than (fn [blah] (f-body (g-body blah))), or does the jit make such considerations irrelevant?
15:43	stuartsierra	mabes: yes, I want to avoid duplication as much as possible. Of course, you don't have to include doc strings in the tests if they're redundant.
15:43	tcrayford	stuartsierra: that'd add enough to get something like ioke's documentation features
15:43	stuartsierra	exactly
15:43	chouser	would it be wrong to present a mutable work-queue as a seq?
15:43	mabes	tcrayford, stuartsierra: yeah, all I'm after is something similar to what ioke provides
15:43	chouser	oh, nm, of course it's wrong.
15:44	tcrayford	ooh, if its on the metadata, I can get 'jump to spec for this function' kinda stuff going (and probably jump to function for this spec as well)
15:44	tcrayford	probably as a swank plugin
15:45	stuartsierra	yes, that would be useful, and the kind of thing I want to enable
15:46	lambdatronic	hey folks. it's me again. I've still got the problem with map lookups not working on a collection of vector keys.
15:46	tcrayford	if the metadata for the spec said which var it was attached to (if any), that'd be easy
15:46	lambdatronic	the paste is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/98512
15:47	mabes	stuartsierra: cool, well now that I know where the whole direction of the clojure testing libs is going I'll start experimenting with lazy-test some more and see if I can provide any useful feedback/patches
15:47	lambdatronic	Any chance anyone has the energy to help me with this?
15:47	stuartsierra	lambdatronic: too much code, can you narrow it down to a specific problem?
15:47	lambdatronic	yes, the specific problem is the output of find-viewpath.
15:47	lambdatronic	just that one function.
15:48	lambdatronic	it's creating a sequence of vectors ([0 0] [0 1] [0 2])
15:48	stuartsierra	I mean reduce the code to one example that fails
15:48	lambdatronic	The example is that one, stuart. I don't mean for anyone to study the rest. It's purely the find-viewpath function (which stands alone).
15:48	lambdatronic	it creates this sequence of vectors, which won't work as lookup keys in the evil-map.
15:49	lambdatronic	the evil-map is really just any boring map with vector pairs of integers as its keys.
15:49	lambdatronic	I can try to make a smaller example though.
15:49	stuartsierra	So what's the problem?
15:50	lambdatronic	test-me is trying to illustrate it.
15:50	lambdatronic	If I have a map (in this case, evil-map) which has vectors of integers as its keys.
15:50	lambdatronic	and I try to do a lookup in it using a literal vector, it works.
15:51	lambdatronic	if I try to do the lookup like so (map evil-map list-of-vecs), that also works.
15:51	lambdatronic	provided a generate the list-of-vecs like so: for [i (range 3) j (range 3)] [i j])
15:51	lambdatronic	however...
15:52	lambdatronic	when I try the lookup as (map evil-map list-of-vecs) when the list-of-vecs is created by find-viewpath, this fails and returns a sequence of nils.
15:52	lambdatronic	so my problem reduces to: why are the vectors from my find-viewpath function any different than those created with (for [i (range 3)
15:52	lambdatronic	j (range 3)] [i j]) ???
15:55	stuartsierra	huh
15:55	stuartsierra	I don't know.
15:56	stuartsierra	they look the same
15:56	lambdatronic	i know. I'm trying to make a smaller test-case.
15:56	lambdatronic	just a moment
16:00	hoeck	lambdatronic: maybe it boils down to:
16:00	hoeck	,(.equals [1 1] [(long 1) (long 1)])
16:00	clojurebot	false
16:00	lambdatronic	...@hoeck: brilliant!
16:00	stuartsierra	I had a hunch it might be that, but I couldn't find the differences
16:01	lambdatronic	yeah, I was looking at it every which way too.
16:01	stuartsierra	ah
16:01	stuartsierra	Math/round returns a long, not an int
16:01	lambdatronic	the keys are always clojure.lang.PersistentVector both in the map and from find-viewpath.
16:01	lambdatronic	and they check out as =
16:01	lambdatronic	that's the root of it, then I guess. So hashing on maps isn't using =, I take it.
16:02	stuartsierra	,(.equals 2 (Math/round 1.5))
16:02	clojurebot	false
16:02	stuartsierra	yes, hashing is required to use .equals instead of Clojure =
16:03	lambdatronic	Well, sob.
16:03	stuartsierra	just coerce the result of Math/round back to Integer with "int"
16:03	lambdatronic	thanks, guys. you just resolved a seriously frustrating problem for me. well maybe. Let me try this fix.
16:07	hoeck	had the same problem just recently while parsing a binary file, and I wondered why I didn't find any of the symbols I coded into a hashmap like (get {0xff TYPE_INT, ..} parsed-byte)
16:07	cgrand	btw to "normalize" numbers there is clojure.lang.Numbers/reduce
16:07	lambdatronic	huh. seems like that's it after all. absolutely brilliant work guys.
16:07	cgrand	,(class (clojure.lang.Numbers/reduce (long 1)))
16:07	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
16:08	lambdatronic	eh?
16:08	lambdatronic	@cgrand by normalize you mean what exactly?
16:09	patrkris	LauJensen: in your example where you define a macro turtle-motion, the macro has a reps parameter - where is that used? (In your latest blog post)
16:10	LauJensen	patrkris: The macro just served to show the train of though which let up to the finaly iterative sotluion, I talk myself out of actually using the macro, but the reps is use in the reduce call
16:10	patrkris	LauJensen: ok, good - just thought I was misunderstanding something
16:15	cemerick	stuartsierra: #79 actually makes 1.1/1.2 cross-compat more difficult, not less
16:15	hoeck	lambdatronic: Numbers/reduce converts a number to its best-fitting datatype
16:15	tcrayford	technomancy: need to test that patch on clojure 1.2 at some point soon
16:15	stuartsierra	cemerick: why?
16:16	cemerick	The various signature and fn name changes still need to be unraveled by any codebase that wants to target both, and choosing which impl to use is still easiest by eagerly loading whereever the new impls are in a try/catch.
16:16	lambdatronic	@hoeck will this always be Integer or Double for clojure types or will it also include BigDecimal, etc?
16:17	stuartsierra	cemerick: I want to discourage people from trying to target both.
16:17	hoeck	lambdatronic: e.g. a long in the range of 2^31 < x <= -2^31 to an int
16:17	cemerick	hrm, so roughly the same difficulty level.
16:17	lambdatronic	ah, gotcha
16:17	cemerick	stuartsierra: I'm with you there, but that's not my call in a variety of projects.
16:17	stuarthalloway	if anybody is bored please test the recent commits to clojure and contrib
16:17	cemerick	(though I'll be lobbying more and more in those venues as the weeks wear on)
16:18	LauJensen	stuarthalloway: Thanks for doing that fantastic screencast on protocols, great job!
16:18	cemerick	Anyway, I'm not arguing against restoring the old namespaces, just pointing out that doing so doesn't impact 1.1/1.2 compat.
16:18	stuartsierra	It's my fault: by making breaking changes in 1.2 , people started trying to support both with conditional loads.
16:18	stuarthalloway	LauJensen: glad you liked it
16:18	stuartsierra	That is not sustainable or even sane.
16:19	stuarthalloway	while you guys are discussing 1.2 breakage I just broke contrib :-)
16:19	stuartsierra	heh
16:19	stuartsierra	oh well
16:19	stuartsierra	at least it wasn't me this time :)
16:19	stuarthalloway	and we aren't planning on turning back from it, but I would welcome review of the changes
16:19	cemerick	stuartsierra: Perhaps not sane, but it works. shrug Anyway, I don't think the breaking changes were a bad move.
16:20	patrkris	stuarthalloway: will you be doing more videos on deftype, defrecord and reify?
16:20	kotarak	stuarthalloway: bug in reductions (f) should be (list (f)) or [(f)], mailed Rich already. The patch in Assembla is correct, however it's against contrib.
16:20	wlangstroth	stuarthalloway: ditto about the screencast - well done
16:20	chouser	stuarthalloway: my only complaint about your screencast is the title. I would have watched it sooner if I had known it was the best available description of the expression problem. :-)
16:21	stuarthalloway	chouser: clearly I suck at titles. BTW love the title for your book
16:21	stuarthalloway	kotarak: hopefully Rich is on it
16:21	stuarthalloway	patrkis: dunno yet, time constraints :-)
16:22	chouser	heh. thanks. The machinations that finally led to it were amazingly painful.
16:22	stuartsierra	cemerick: conditional loads should still work, by the way, as long as you try the newer version first.
16:22	cemerick	stuartsierra: right, yes. That's why I backed away from my "makes things harder" assertion.
16:23	stuartsierra	ah, I see. OK.
16:23	cemerick	Though if someone didn't think about it too much, and eagerly loaded duck-streams, and then falling back to 1.2 stuff.... :-/
16:24	stuartsierra	Well, then their code will break on 1.3. :)
16:24	stuartsierra	But hopefully by then we'll have succeeded in abolishing contrib altogether.
16:24	cemerick	right, I was suggesting that in that scenario, they might actually prefer 1.2 stuff, but not think about the fact that duck-streams might reappear in 1.2.
16:25	cemerick	Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now. :-)
16:25	stuartsierra	yep
16:25	cemerick	I will henceforth lobby for contrib namespaces to be timestamped monthly, so as to prevent people from thinking it's a standard library. :-P
16:25	stuartsierra	heh
16:25	chouser	stuarthalloway: you might consider putting those contrib fns back in contrib with deprecation notices, instead of the breaking changes.
16:26	cemerick	clojure.contrib.error-kit201026
16:26	stuarthalloway	considering, but not doing it yet
16:26	stuarthalloway	how can I have the fns in with colliding names? You won't get far enough to have a deprecation notice
16:27	cemerick	for those concerned about 1.2-SNAPSHOT compatibility?
16:27	chouser	hm.
16:27	technomancy	cemerick: the other option is to spin libs out of contrib into independent any-clojure-version-works libraries: http://clojars.org/clj-io
16:27	sexpbot	"clj-io \| Clojars"
16:27	stuarthalloway	note today's problem applies only to seq fns promoted to core
16:27	stuartsierra	technomancy: that's the way forward for sure
16:28	chouser	hm, for explicit :use :only cases, right. bleh.
16:28	stuarthalloway	everything else will be promoted to its own namespaces
16:28	cemerick	technomancy: Yeah, I think that's the side of things I came down on some months ago when there was a discussion about the charter of contrib.
16:28	technomancy	makes more sense for things that aren't destined for promotion clojure itself, but it neatly sidesteps a lot of pain
16:28	stuarthalloway	spinning things out makes it too easy to ruin provenance
16:29	stuarthalloway	reducing likelihood of ever being promoted to clojure
16:29	cemerick	There's a lot of stuff in contrib that is barely touched, and likely never heading into core, though.
16:29	stuartsierra	probably 9/10 of it
16:29	cemerick	technomancy: not a fan?
16:30	chouser	the likelihood of error-kit ever being promoted is already zero
16:30	technomancy	cemerick: no, we use it and it's decent
16:30	technomancy	cemerick: I just wish it were an independent library so it could introduce breaking changes in a 2.0 release
16:30	cemerick	ah, right
16:31	tcrayford	the monad stuff in contrib could probably be a separate library as well
16:31	technomancy	stuarthalloway: is there still a plan for "clojure.lib"? or has it just been boiled down to "get io and some other fns into clojure itself"?
16:31	stuarthalloway	technomancy: there are assembla tix for it
16:32	stuarthalloway	nothing called lib
16:32	stuarthalloway	the io stuff goes to clojure.java.io
16:32	stuartsierra	not clojure.io?
16:32	technomancy	ok cool; that's what I thought
16:32	cemerick	that's surprising
16:32	stuarthalloway	stuartsierra: no, the io fns are very host-y
16:32	stuartsierra	that makes sense
16:32	stuarthalloway	cemerick: antecedent?
16:41	rhickey	keep - non-nil or truthy?
16:43	rhickey	vote now or forever hold your peace
16:44	chouser	ooh, if I vote now I can whine later?
16:44	rhickey	erm, probably not
16:45	stuartsierra	I don't understand the question
16:45	rhickey	I'm inclined towards non-nil
16:45	chouser	my first thought was truthy, so it's like 'if'
16:45	rhickey	stuartsierra: keep is like filter except instead of returning x when (pred x) is true, it returns (pred x)
16:46	chouser	but non-nil means you can always use it and filter further if you really want to remove falses, which would surely be rare.
16:46	technomancy	filter considers truthiness, so if we're going to say keep is like filter, it should probably be the same.
16:47	rhickey	I think it will often be used with when, and to select e.g. settings that exist, such setting might be false
16:47	chouser	(filter (complement nil?) ...) vs. (filter identity ...)
16:47	stuartsierra	ok
16:47	stuartsierra	I like non-nil then
16:47	rhickey	technomancy: we won;t necessarily say it is like filter if it isn't, most important to make it useful first
16:48	chouser	it's still like filter, just the pred changes, right?
16:48	chouser	I mean, the specific predicate is in question
16:48	rhickey	no, the predicate is user supplied, this is about the interpretation of its result
16:48	chouser	(filter (complement nil?) (map f coll))
16:49	chouser	f is user-supplied
16:49	rhickey	(remove nil? (map f coll))
16:49	technomancy	it's also a lot like "some", but without stopping at the first
16:49	rhickey	but more efficient
16:49	rhickey	technomancy: yes, exactly
16:49	chouser	oh, sorry -- it was take-while I was using today that had no complement.
16:50	chouser	so yes, I think remove nil? is best, though the docs should be a bit loud about it not being a normal truthy check.
16:50	technomancy	I can't think of any other core seq fns work by way of non-nil rather than truthiness. are there others?
16:51	rhickey	technomancy: I wish some worked non-nil often
16:52	AWizzArd	rhickey: do you have an example for that?
16:52	rhickey	but when you are using keep you really care about the values, only sometimes with some
16:52	technomancy	as long as the docs are extra-explicit, it could work.
16:52	slyphon	is there a mechanism through which one can "extend" a multifn? i'm specifically trying to tweak some of the behavior of clojure.test/report
16:52	slyphon	(without having to cut/paste)
16:53	amatos	How can I access a enum constant defined inside a Java class? I have a enum called Type inside a class called TradePeriod. I am trying to use TradePeriod.Trade.IN_SAMPLE. TradePeriod/Type/IN_SAMPLE doesn't work, neither does TradePeriod$Type/IN_SAMPLE.
16:53	stuartsierra	slyphon: defmethod clojure.test/report should work...
16:54	LauJensen	rhickey: My vote is on non-nil
16:55	slyphon	stuartsierra: yeah, but then there's no way to "super" ?
16:55	stuartsierra	slyphon: multimethods have no "super"
16:55	slyphon	yes, i know
16:55	slyphon	i mean conceptually
16:55	chouser	it'd be interesting to relegate 'false' to strictly interop situations, that is no core functions return it.
16:56	slyphon	if it were a regular var i'd bind over it
16:56	slyphon	hrm, that wouldn't work either
16:56	slyphon	blah!
16:56	technomancy	I'm just not used to ever thinking about the difference between false and nil.
16:57	technomancy	there are a lot of functions for which I don't even know which they return
16:57	slyphon	technomancy: i've used it in the past to indicate "no action"
16:58	slyphon	when changing global state
16:58	LauJensen	technomancy: we could unify false and nil in a new var 'faljure'
16:58	replaca	technomancy: and while we're at it, let's rename true to t. Then the lisper in me will be at peace :-).
16:58	slyphon	"call start: nil" "you already called start on this: false"
16:59	pjstadig	lein doesn't reject at the var level...yet
16:59	replaca	(I'm only sort of kidding...)
16:59	stuartsierra	replaca: the earliest pre-1.0 versions of Clojure used t/nil instead of true/false/nil
16:59	technomancy	LauJensen: great idea!
16:59	stuartsierra	But t/nil was confusing for Java interop.
17:00	replaca	stuartsierra: This is how McCarthy made the world and thus it was meant to be!
17:00	stuartsierra	http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/john_mccarthy_successories_poster.jpg
17:00	slyphon	replaca: "a foolish consistency..." though
17:01	slyphon	then again, fuck knuth
17:01	LauJensen	slyphon: You should watch your language
17:01	replaca	What I love about it is that the symbols are so short
17:01	slyphon	LauJensen: sorry
17:02	LauJensen	np
17:02	technomancy	if Knuth were here, he'd wash your mouth with soap
17:03	slyphon	technomancy: :D
17:03	rhickey	keep - "Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item)"
17:03	slyphon	i was only being pejorative
17:03	slyphon	ooh
17:03	slyphon	rhickey: that's nice
17:04	stuartsierra	rhickey: so 'keep' is like (remove nil? (map f coll)) ?
17:04	chouser	+ "Note, this means false return values from (f item) will be included."
17:04	LauJensen	stuartsierra: but where does 'like' start and stop ?
17:05	rhickey	stuartsierra: yes, but more efficient. Also coming: keep-indexed (and map-indexed)
17:05	stuartsierra	ok
17:05	LauJensen	keep - "Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item), no faljures"
17:06	slyphon	stuartsierra: if i bind over a multifn with my own version, is there a way of keeping a reference to the original so that i can call it?
17:06	wlangstroth	LauJensen: You should watch your languaje
17:07	slyphon	wow, i can't believe he called me on the f-word
17:07	wlangstroth	slyphon: the f-bomb is reserved for heavy debugging
17:07	technomancy	wlangstroth: I prefer "reserved for legacy JVM interop"
17:09	stuartsierra	slyphon: sure, just def a reference to it
17:09	stuartsierra	like (def old-report clojure.test/report)
17:09	slyphon	mm'kay
17:09	slyphon	oh, that makes sense
17:10	wlangstroth	technomancy: oh man. That phrase is way worse than swearing.
17:11	slyphon	stuartsierra: in theory, then, if i (binding [test/report my-report]), have that old-report def, and define (defmethod my-report :default [m] (old-report m)), any method cases i don't explicitly define should fall through to the original?
17:11	rhickey	chouser: you have a homemade keep?
17:12	rhickey	or just prepping for the push?
17:12	stuartsierra	slyphon: yes
17:12	slyphon	ok, cool :)
17:12	slyphon	ty
17:12	stuartsierra	np
17:12	slyphon	stuartsierra: that's what i kind of meant by "super"
17:16	chouser	rhickey: I have a homemade keep as of 15 minutes ago.
17:16	rhickey	chouser: chunk-aware?
17:16	chouser	I was staring at code that could use it, so I'm using it.
17:16	chouser	no.
17:16	chouser	looking forward to your efficient version.
17:17	wlangstroth	no pressure
17:20	rhickey	tuned up into, added map-indexed, keep, keep-indexed
17:22	AWizzArd	oh good :)
17:23	wlangstroth	the crowd applauds
17:39	hamza	gents, any way to get prev item used in a map operation i need to calculate some delta values?
17:40	technomancy	hamza: if it's a vector you could use the brand-new map-indexed function
17:40	raek	you could use partition with some step
17:41	kotarak	,(partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4 5 6])
17:41	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4 5) (5 6))
17:41	hamza	,(doc map-indexed)
17:41	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:41	kotarak	hamza: map-indexed is ca. 10 minutes old
17:44	hamza	hehe thanks both technomancy, kotarak. partition worked will check out map-indexed.
17:44	AWizzArd	hamza: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/9b78d483959e912a2ef77ff649b893b035144549
17:45	AWizzArd	There you can see the doc strings.
17:53	technomancy	clojurebot: ticket #20
17:53	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/3yrgpwo, :summary "GC Issue 16: Pretty printing", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-06-17T11:58:37-07:00"}
18:08	The-Kenny	huh, that would be nice
18:10	slyphon	hrm, is it possible to start a repl from the repl?
18:10	Chousuke	probably,
18:10	slyphon	(with-some-kind-of-state* (fn [] start-a-repl-in-here))
18:11	slyphon	er
18:11	slyphon	yeah, but with the correct syntax and stuff
18:11	slyphon	;)
18:12	slyphon	oooh
18:12	slyphon	repl-in
18:17	cemerick	so the equivalent of indexed is (map-indexed #(vec %&) some-seq)?
18:18	slyphon	well, that certainly doesn't work in slime!
18:18	replaca	sometime folks complain about regular expression strings, other times they complain about CL format strings. But how about a mixture:
18:18	replaca	(GET (re-pattern (cl-format nil "/~@[~a/?~]" prefix)) (home-page prefix))
18:19	slyphon	and on that note
18:20	AWizzArd	cemerick: hmm yes, looks good
18:20	cemerick	You probably want #(vector % %2) if you care about the cost of gathering rest args, but...
18:21	replaca	technomancy\|away: Yes, pprint is going into 1.2 - decided today
18:21	cemerick	That's some micro-optimization there...
18:21	technomancy	replaca: wow, nice.
18:22	technomancy	for the greater good
18:22	replaca	indeed
18:24	technomancy	wow, that really whittles down the amount of contrib usage for us.
18:24	technomancy	especially if logging is spun off.
18:29	The-Kenny	Can someone show me a correct combination of clojure, contrib and swank-clojure for use with clojure 1.2-master-SNAPSHOT?
18:30	The-Kenny	My current project.clj fails with java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var swank.swank/start-server is unbound (using M-x swank-clojure-project)
18:31	The-Kenny	http://gist.github.com/382829 That's my project.clj
18:35	technomancy	The-Kenny: drop "-master" from contrib
18:36	The-Kenny	technomancy: I think I've tried that, but I'll try again
18:36	The-Kenny	No, not working :(
18:38	technomancy	weird; works for me
18:39	The-Kenny	Was there some important change to swank-clojure.el? Maybe mine is outdated
18:40	technomancy	recent changes have been mostly about edge-cases
18:40	technomancy	could try lein swank tho
18:45	The-Kenny	Fails too :( "group-by already refers to bla"
18:45	The-Kenny	Looks like someone out there don't want me to use clojure 1.2
18:46	technomancy	oh... that's new breakage as of like an hour ago; cripes.
18:47	The-Kenny	hm :(
18:48	Chousuke	errors like these are just teaching people to avoid :use :P
18:49	lancepantz	anyone know if read-properties can be used to load a properties file as a classpath resource instead of a path?
19:17	AWizzArd	,(doc add-classpath)
19:17	clojurebot	"([url]); DEPRECATED Adds the url (String or URL object) to the classpath per URLClassLoader.addURL"
19:17	livingston	having your build tool forbid names doesn't seem like the greatest of ideas? unless there is a technical reason this is just kinda silly
19:27	technomancy	what's wrong with silly?
19:27	slyphon	technomancy: stop that! it's silly!
19:30	rhudson	Is Leiningen really going to abjure -jure?
19:32	lancepantz	hahahah, i thought he was just kidding about that
19:46	stuarthalloway	technomancy: collision with group-by is killing swank
19:46	stuarthalloway	are the semantics the same? can it be simply removed from swank.util?
19:46	technomancy	stuarthalloway: I am one step (about 15 minutes) ahead of you. =)
19:47	stuarthalloway	awesome!
19:47	technomancy	my fix loads it conditionally; the semantics are the same (just no transients in swank's version)
19:47	technomancy	or rather, the only difference in semantics was an optional argument that was only used in the test suite
19:47	technomancy	(don't look at me; I didn't write it) =)
19:47	stuarthalloway	is the a leiningen way to say "give me the snapshot as of date d" so people can back off the edge?
19:48	stuarthalloway	s/the/there
19:48	technomancy	yeah, you just replace SNAPSHOT with the timestamp of the build
19:48	technomancy	it should probably be better-documented though
19:49	slyphon	technomancy: do you know if it's possible, or if someone has written, something like repl-ln that works over swank?
19:49	slyphon	so you can spawn a sub-repl in a certain context
19:49	stuarthalloway	we need to encourage people to track to a timestamp, or at least make sure they know how
19:50	technomancy	slyphon: the swank.core/break debug repl is basically that; you can ask hugod how that works
19:50	stuarthalloway	a doc fix plus an email or blog post on "paddling back from the edge" would be most welcom
19:50	slyphon	technomancy: w00t!
19:50	technomancy	stuarthalloway: will definitely include that in the readme for the next lein release
19:51	liebke	technomancy: what would be an example using the timestamp for the previous snapshot of Clojure?
19:52	technomancy	liebke: at work we're using version "1.2.0-master-20100426.160114-46"
19:52	liebke	I just emailed the group about the swank problem, I definitely need to go back a snapshot
19:52	liebke	thanks!
19:52	technomancy	it's a little more complicated than timestamps I guess; it includes the hudson build number
19:53	liebke	what about clojure-contrib?
19:53	liebke	is it the same?
19:54	technomancy	liebke: for contrib: "1.2.0-20100427.200505-82"
19:54	liebke	excellent, thanks
19:55	technomancy	posted to the mailing list with the magic numbers
19:56	slyphon	technomancy: for the record: C
19:57	slyphon	C
19:57	slyphon	J
19:57	slyphon	GAH
19:57	slyphon	http://hugoduncan.org/post/2010/swank_clojure_gets_a_break_with_the_local_environment.xhtml
19:57	sexpbot	"Hugo Duncan : Swank Clojure gets a Break with the Local Environment"
19:57	slyphon	stupid paste
19:58	technomancy	oh, I thought you wanted details on how it's implemented
19:59	slyphon	technomancy: hah, no, i just want the feature :)
19:59	technomancy	oh yeah, it's the best
19:59	slyphon	:D
19:59	slyphon	i've been wanting that for a while
20:00	slyphon	esp. since i have a whole ton of (with-blah-context* ) methods
20:28	unlink	Has anyone released a reader for Clojure that implements sweet expressions?
20:52	cemerick	unlink: oh, I'd hope not
20:53	somnium	it looks like even the PLT mailing list was slightly hostile to them :p, not sure how you'd implement { ~infix } in clojure either
20:53	somnium	{{ x + y + z }} is kinda salty
20:55	cemerick	it seems like a complete waste to me shrug
20:56	_ato	I think there was one a long time ago, sweetjure or something like that, but it didn't get much interest and now seems to have disppeared
20:56	cemerick	I think the influx of people willing to use clojure from java-land is at least encroaching on voiding their premise
20:56	somnium	it feels like a half-measure to me, if you really want syntax, why not write a preprocessor and feed it to the reader
20:58	somnium	I like the syntax of haskell and ocaml, but template haskell and camlp4 are terrifying
20:59	unlink	somnium: the infix part is of dubious utility
21:00	somnium	http://github.com/apatil/pleajure
21:03	_ato	ah yep, that's the one I was thinking of
21:04	currivan	Question about type hints: I can use #^Lbyte in a defn binding but I can't get it to work in let (error) or binding (still have reflection warning). Anyone know why?
21:18	slyphon	anyone use swank.core/break ?
21:30	tomoj	is a quick recovery from what happened to 1.2 impossible in general?
21:58	_brian2_	noob question, why the first item returned from lazy seq by (first.. ) is not the same as I see when I use doseq? : http://clojure.pastebin.com/SasLCeBF
22:00	slyphon	doseq doesn't keep the head of the seq?
22:01	slyphon	hrm
22:01	_brian2_	don't know , thats what I get
22:01	slyphon	depends on what (hn-body) is
22:02	_brian2_	all lazy seq's aren't equal?
22:02	slyphon	nope
22:02	slyphon	a lazy-seq could be bytes coming out of a socket
22:03	_brian2_	ok
22:03	_brian2_	so what (first .. considers to be first is not what doseq does
22:05	slyphon	well
22:05	slyphon	actually, i'm gonna stop talking, because i'm kinda new to this
22:05	slyphon	;)
22:05	_brian2_	ok, lol
22:06	tomoj	_brian2_: I think what you want is (doseq [v (hn-body)] ...)
22:06	_brian2_	ok
22:07	_brian2_	thnks
22:07	tomoj	the issue you're seeing is interesting
22:07	tomoj	want to know why you see that output?
22:07	_brian2_	yes
22:07	tomoj	do you know about destructuring yet?
22:07	_brian2_	a bit
22:08	tomoj	,(let [[a b c] (iterate inc 1)] [a b c])
22:08	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
22:08	tomoj	if you have a vector in a binding form, this means that you expect a seq to be bound to it, and the symbols you put into the vector will be bound to elements in that seq
22:09	_brian2_	i'm gonna copy this and think about it
22:09	tomoj	,(let [[x] "foo"] x)
22:09	clojurebot	\f
22:09	tomoj	,(let [[x y z] "foo"] [x y z])
22:09	clojurebot	[\f \o \o]
22:09	tomoj	the repeated newlines you're seeing is because each time through the doseq, v is bound to the first character of each string
22:10	_brian2_	hmm
22:10	tomoj	and they all start with newlines
22:10	_brian2_	ok, and then [space]
22:10	tomoj	,(doseq [x ["foo" "bar" "baz"]] (println x))
22:10	clojurebot	foo bar baz
22:11	slyphon	hrm
22:12	tomoj	,(doseq [[x y z] ["foo" "bar" "baz"]] (println [x y z]))
22:12	clojurebot	[f o o] [b a r] [b a z]
22:12	tomoj	,(for [[x] ["foo" "bar" "baz"]] x)
22:12	clojurebot	(\f \b \b)
22:12	_brian2_	actually I would have thought one variable "v", then it would not destructure, but obviousl I am wrong
22:13	tomoj	with just the symbol v, it doesn't destructure
22:13	tomoj	but when you have a vector or map, you get destructuring
22:13	_brian2_	but what about my output
22:13	tomoj	you have a vector
22:13	tomoj	you've got (doseq [[v] (hn-body)] (prn v))
22:13	tomoj	what you want is (doseq [v (hn-body)] (prn v)), no vector in the binding form
22:14	_brian2_	ahh
22:14	tomoj	when the vector has fewer elements in it than the number of elements in the thing bound to it, the rest are just ignored
22:14	tomoj	so v is bound to the first element of each string
22:14	tomoj	and the seq for a string is a seq of characters
22:14	_brian2_	hmm, ok
22:15	tomoj	,(seq "\n blah")
22:15	clojurebot	(\newline \space \b \l \a \h)
22:15	_brian2_	yes ok, that clarifys it much for me
22:15	_brian2_	clarify
22:16	_brian2_	thanks!
22:18	_brian2_	actually I think I was confused because these [] is also used as arguments for functions.
22:18	tomoj	right
22:18	_brian2_	but not when calling
22:19	tomoj	I guess this is somewhat like learning the syntax of clojure :(
22:19	tomoj	,(doc doseq)
22:19	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
22:19	_brian2_	yes
22:19	tomoj	at least the syntax is consistent
22:20	tomoj	let, for, doseq, and others all use the same syntax here
22:20	_brian2_	what do they mean b "head of sequence" ?
22:20	_brian2_	the first element
22:20	_brian2_	?
22:20	tomoj	yeah, the head is the first element
22:20	tomoj	what that means is that doseq will allow that element to be garbage collected
22:21	_brian2_	hmm
22:21	tomoj	if you write code which keeps a reference to the first element of a lazy seq, it "holds the head", and this means that the entire seq will be stored in memory
22:21	_brian2_	ok
22:21	tomoj	if you don't hold the head, you can traverse an infinite seq as long as you like without running out of memory
22:21	_brian2_	yes, hmm important point
22:21	tomoj	so for instance a clojure program could (doseq [i (iterate inc 0)] (println i))
22:22	tomoj	and it would just sit there printing out the natural numbers practically forever
22:22	_brian2_	yes, this is very important to my application
22:24	_brian2_	it seems only particular cases you would not want to use it
22:33	chouser	aaargh!
22:33	slyphon	chouser: sup?
22:33	slyphon	chouser: remember: don't fry bacon naked
22:33	chouser	I've been getting bit 3 evenings in a row now by (I think) the same problem, and it's something I knew but was somehow overlooking
22:34	slyphon	doh
22:34	chouser	the comparator you give to sorted-set-by controls not just order, but the set's concept of uniqueness.
22:34	slyphon	ah
22:34	slyphon	interesting
22:35	chouser	,(sorted-set-by #(compare (:a %1) (:a %2)) {:a 2 :b 1} {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :c 3})
22:35	clojurebot	#{{:a 1, :b 2} {:a 2, :b 1}}
22:35	chouser	I mean, it has to. It's the only thing that makes sense from the set's perspective.
22:36	chouser	I probably made fun of the person who last complained about it to me.
22:36	slyphon	:)
22:36	chouser	,(sorted-set-by #(compare [(:a %1) %1] [(:a %2) %2]) {:a 2 :b 1} {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :c 3})
22:36	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable
22:37	slyphon	that's different than ruby & python
22:37	chouser	hm, interesting.
22:38	slyphon	heh, that's like today, i was going nuts trying to figure out some weird JMS behavior, turns out you have to explicitly call "start" on your connectoin
22:38	slyphon	connection
22:38	slyphon	(which i knew, dammit)
22:38	rhudson	,(sorted-set-by #(first [0 %1 %2]) :a :b :c :d :e)
22:38	clojurebot	#{:a}
22:39	chouser	,(sorted-set-by #(compare [(:a %1) 0] [(:a %2) 1]) {:a 2 :b 1} {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :c 3})
22:39	clojurebot	#{{:a 1, :b 2} {:a 2, :c 3} {:a 2, :b 1}}
22:39	chouser	hm...
22:39	chouser	,(sorted-set-by #(compare [(:a %1) 0] [(:a %2) 1]) {:a 2 :b 1} {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :c 3} {:a 2 :c 3})
22:39	clojurebot	#{{:a 1, :b 2} {:a 2, :c 3} {:a 2, :c 3} {:a 2, :b 1}}
22:40	chouser	fascinating. this might work just fine in my case.
22:40	chouser	I don't need the set for removing duplicates
22:40	slyphon	is a lazy-seq kind of like a monad if you're wrapping something like a socket?
22:41	slyphon	i.e. representing a stream of IO as a seq of values
22:42	slyphon	i hear people discuss "monadic IO" but i haven't had the time to learn haskell yet
22:44	tomoj	I don't see the lazy-seq <=> monad connection there
22:44	tomoj	I'd think in haskell you'd have an IO [a] to represent the stream of values coming out of a socket
22:44	slyphon	how is that different from a seq?
22:45	tomoj	a seq is just an [a]
22:45	slyphon	IO is the class, no?
22:46	tomoj	if you have an IO [a], you can get from it an [a]
22:46	tomoj	then you just process the [a] like you would a lazy-seq
22:47	tomoj	the lazy seq actually has the mechanisms for doing more IO contained inside it
22:47	tomoj	I am still confused by haskell so don't trust me
22:47	slyphon	hahahaha
22:48	chouser	ha! ok, don't do my always-unique thing above
22:48	chouser	if your comparator never returns 0, you can never find or remove anything in your set.
22:48	chouser	duh
22:50	rhudson	So the comparator for a sorted set has to define a total ordering, sounds like
23:01	rhudson	chouser: are you trying to define a priority queue?
23:05	chouser	yessir
23:05	chouser	it was working fine until I moved from vectors to records
23:15	chouser	I'm going crazy
23:15	chouser	((.comparator wd) (first wd) (first wd)) ;=> 0
23:16	chouser	(wd (first wd)) ;=> nil
23:16	chouser	I don't see how a set can do that.
23:16	unlink	What is the idiomatic way to write to stderr?
23:17	slyphon	(binding [out err] ...)
23:17	slyphon	i think
23:17	unlink	(binding [out err] (println blah)) ?
23:17	unlink	oh, :(
23:17	slyphon	someone will correct me, though
23:17	slyphon	well
23:17	slyphon	you can wrap that in a macro
23:17	unlink	I mean I understand
23:17	slyphon	yeah, i also though that was kind of "meh"
23:18	rhickey	chouser: what is wd?
23:18	rhudson	chouser: what's wd?
23:18	chouser	sorted-set-by
23:18	chouser	I just spotted it
23:19	chouser	my sort-by fn is (defn work-order [a b] (cond (= a b) 0 (< (:cost-est a) (:cost-est b)) -1 :else 1))
23:19	chouser	the problem is that if a bunch of items have the same :cost-est, the two equal ones might not end up next to each other
23:20	chouser	so simply guaranteeing that it returns 0 for equal items isn't sufficient. it must always put things in the same order.
23:22	rhudson	sounds right
23:23	chouser	so to get the behaviour I want I have to take into account every field of the record
23:24	chouser	I mean, I have to actually order on every field, not just check equality.
23:24	hiredman	or order on :cost-est then hashcode
23:24	chouser	perhaps I'd be better off implementing Comparable in the record itself
23:24	rhudson	If you had a serial # / index on each record, you could sort by [(:cost x) (:serial x)]
23:25	chouser	hiredman: I thought of that, but I could get incorrect 0's if the hashcodes happend to be different
23:25	chouser	and items would mysteriously disappear
23:25	hiredman	chouser: uh, for immutable objects?
23:26	hiredman	oh
23:26	hiredman	right
23:26	hiredman	sorted-sets
23:26	hiredman	what a pain
23:27	chouser	ugh. Actually, I'd be better off just using a vector
23:27	hiredman	:)
23:27	rhudson	Unless one of the elments in the vector was a map, then you'd have the same incomparability problem
23:28	hiredman	huh?
23:29	rhudson	Maps aren't Comparable
23:29	chouser	right. it's not. I have a number and a 2-element vector of numbers.
23:30	unlink	Is there any datetime convenience code for clojure
23:30	unlink	my use case is printing out a string of the form "2010-04-29 03:30:44.950063"
23:31	hiredman	clojurebot: javadoc java.text.DateFormater
23:31	hiredman	nuts
23:31	hiredman	what is that thing called
23:31	unlink	SimpleDateFormatter?
23:32	unlink	* SimpleDateFormat
23:32	hiredman	sure
23:32	hiredman	that'll do
23:32	rhudson	That's what I always use
23:32	unlink	OK. I'm just asking because that is a horrible class O:-)
23:32	hiredman	right
23:32	hiredman	well
23:32	hiredman	right
23:33	rhudson	format's something like "yyyy-MM-dd hh:mm:ss.SSS"
23:35	replaca	unlink: my advice is skip java dates and pick up jodatime. It's still pretty nasty but at least it makes sense
23:37	unlink	this is inspiring
23:38	unlink	in a bad way, I mean
23:38	slyphon	unlink: it's java, it's not supposed to be inspiring
23:38	slyphon	it's supposed to be hackable by your replacement who you will undoubtedly train
23:38	unlink	as in, inspiring me to write something for clojure
23:38	slyphon	hah
23:40	chouser	I think there's a clojure wrapper around jodatime somewhere.
23:40	slyphon	you know, come to think, i think the problem with most date/time libs is that time is a terrible abstraction
23:42	unlink	well it's a nasty concept
23:42	unlink	and calendars are inherently tricky
23:42	slyphon	eyah
23:43	rhudson	At least there's options beyond "Wed Apr 28 23:42:28 EDT 2010" these days -- that's gotta be the worst format in the world
23:43	slyphon	"Time is of an affliction" - Frank Zappa
23:44	rhudson	"Without time, everything would happen at once. Without space, everything would happen to me"
23:44	replaca	chouser: brad cross and technomancy did something for incanter, but even they don't like it. Someone's working on something new over there. I have high hopes