#clojure – 2010-04-06

2010-04-06

00:18	ztellman	variadic functions in protocols seem to be broken
00:19	ztellman	I assume there's no reason they shouldn't work?
00:27	trptcolin	is the simplest way to get the truthiness of an expression the following: (not (not expr))
00:27	trptcolin	or is there something clearer?
00:33	_ato	,(boolean "I want ice cream")
00:33	clojurebot	true
00:33	_ato	trptcolin: ^
00:33	trptcolin	_ato: awesome! thanks
00:41	slyphon	anyone use the mocking lib?
01:36	doseq	ato: thanks, guess I'll definitely get express delivery.
04:07	LauJensen	Morning all
04:20	esj	Morning LauJensen and all !
05:28	licoresse	just looked at Sean Devlins Foil Disclojure, wonder if it was supposed to be a joke
05:29	LauJensen	hehe
05:31	LauJensen	licoresse: He's saying that he'll block all Java Interop and thereby all access to libraries, that everything is now relying on side-effects by returning nil from every symbol. Then he says that Clojure has too much syntax and to solve that, he'll convert it to a curly braces language...
05:32	licoresse	I like my processors warm
05:32	licoresse	and, would Sean convert it to curly braces, or would Rich do it?
05:33	licoresse	I get the joke now, thanks
05:33	LauJensen	hehe
05:33	LauJensen	np :)
05:33	licoresse	but it would be nice to have a clojure interop with obj-c
05:34	licoresse	I have a hard time doing that stuff now
05:34	LauJensen	True - They need to hurry up with the Clojure-In-Clojure compiler
05:35	licoresse	Indeed
05:39	licoresse	But I have a hard time understanding how exactly this relates to, for instance the obj-c RT, clojure in clojure would still rely on JVM
05:39	LauJensen	No, Clojure in Clojure would rely on a bootstrap, JVM, CLR, ASM, Dalvik, Javascript, whatever
05:40	_ato	>http://blog.n01se.net/?p=41
05:40	LauJensen	And once you have coded that bootstrap, the language compiles itself
05:40	licoresse	So it would be more or less like the Squeak VM? A Smalltalk program that generates C code
05:40	licoresse	that compiles to a platform, et voila, you have a Vm
05:41	licoresse	_ato: reading it now
05:43	Chousuke	Parts of Clojure would still be host-specific
05:43	Chousuke	but as cinc progresses, more code might possibly be shared between implementations on different hosts
05:43	licoresse	but a very tiny kernel, not?
05:44	Chousuke	currently the ClojureCLR project basically needs to reimplement everything
05:46	Chousuke	at the very least things written in Clojure would require fewer changes to port
05:46	LauJensen	licoresse: kernel is the same size, just written in Clojure instead of Java, but the bootstrap should be relatively small
05:47	Chousuke	ideally you'd just have to implement some kernel primitives and the rest is written using those primitives but then you might not be able to truly take advantage of the host in the implementation :/
05:47	bsteuber	LauJensen: "same size, but Java instead of clojure" sounds like a contradiction to me :)
05:47	licoresse	LauJensen: ok, I was thinking kernel as the movable part, the one thing that needs to be generated, but I follow
05:47	licoresse	as in Kernel = Bootstrap
05:47	LauJensen	bsteuber: Well, you get my point I hope
05:48	bsteuber	sure :)
05:48	LauJensen	licoresse: Yes it we collectively rename boostrap to kernel, then indeed, its smaller :)
05:48	Chousuke	I wonder what parts would have to be reimplemented... probably at least protocols, deftype and some core functions... and codegen obviously :P
05:48	LauJensen	'which parts'
05:48	licoresse	the braces would prob. have to be redfined as well
05:49	Chousuke	braces?
05:49	licoresse	Chousuke: yes, like curly braces everywhere
05:49	Chousuke	right :P
05:49	LauJensen	licoresse: I got it :)
05:51	licoresse	LauJensen: det er godt
06:05	licoresse	design patterns in functional languages, anyone?
06:08	licoresse	working with this rather huge swing app, and I got add-watch all over the place
06:11	licoresse	I read some stackoverflow messages related to this, but it' seem FP people are alergic to anything that smells oop, which I find silly
06:13	bsteuber	well, most of OO patterns are simply not necessary with first order functions available
06:13	bsteuber	but sure, some might still survive :)
06:13	licoresse	patterns to me, means a formalized way of organizing things
06:13	Chousuke	the non-weird OOP patterns are not really OOP patterns at alll!
06:13	Chousuke	-l
06:13	egaga	besteuber: and possibly new ones emerge
06:14	bsteuber	true
06:14	Chousuke	The problem with Lisp is that if you find a pattern, you write a macro and the pattern disappears :/
06:14	underdev	beat me to it
06:14	licoresse	Chousuke: okay, that sounds fine, how to get to that stage
06:14	egaga	so how to rid of pattern of writing a macro when seeing first-order pattern ;P
06:15	Chousuke	you write code and your brain takes care of the rest.
06:15	licoresse	have someone categorized the most useful patterns
06:15	Chousuke	the human brain is exceptionally good at finding patterns
06:15	licoresse	oh please
06:15	Chousuke	sometimes too good, actually
06:16	underdev	facade for sure is still relevant
06:16	Chousuke	collections of patterns are useful for languages with no means to abstract them away because they demonstrate ways to structure code.
06:16	Chousuke	if you need to deal with patterns, might as well document the good ones
06:16	egaga	exceptionally good compared to other known existing things, sure, but i think humans are poor programmers
06:16	licoresse	egaga: I follow you :)
06:17	licoresse	my brain is exceptionally bad at tracking 200k lines of code
06:17	Chousuke	I suppose Clojure has patterns too... They're just called idioms :/
06:17	licoresse	that's a start, idioms
06:19	underdev	the oo guys have been beating the composition > inheritance drum for a long time, and it's just darn easy to compose functions, and then it's still easier to build a macro to compose the functions for you
06:19	Chousuke	I think syntactic abstraction can condense a large pattern so that it becomes "idiomatic" within the context of the program you're writing. Kind of like in a local dialect.
06:19	Chousuke	I suppose this means that DSLs are idiomatic in lisps
06:20	underdev	and DSL is a design pattern (not GOF, but...)
06:21	Chousuke	What about patterns in the design of DSLs? :/
06:22	Chousuke	Like using vectors for bindings etc.
06:27	licoresse	Anti-Object-Obsessed: “I do not believe in things. I believe only in their relationships” - George Braque
06:28	licoresse	In my life, I learned one thing; the more freedom I get, the more structure I need
06:30	underdev	In my life, i've learned one thing: "Don't eat the yellow snow."
06:31	licoresse	lol
06:31	underdev	both important lessons, i think
06:31	licoresse	I have kids trying to learn the same thing, suggestions?
06:32	underdev	hey, it took a lot of trial and error to figure out that gem.
06:32	licoresse	is fp an appropriate approach to the yellow-snow-problem
06:33	bsteuber	A somehow related question is "what can take the place of UML for functional programming?"
06:33	licoresse	hmm
06:34	licoresse	i guess, when you say UML, I am thinking both charts and a language
06:35	underdev	there are a lot of uml diagrams that are still useful, but not class diagrams or whatnot
06:35	underdev	and when i say useful, i'm speaking in the broadest sense of the term
06:35	underdev	applicable would be a better word :)
06:36	licoresse	in the kingdom of nouns :)
06:36	bsteuber	but maybe there are other kinds of diagrams that might be adequate for functional stuff
06:36	egaga	type signature
06:37	licoresse	how do you map pre and post conditions in uml?
06:38	licoresse	9 years since I even cared about that stuff
06:39	licoresse	I see that some people use class diagrams for modules, data members for tpes and methods for functions
06:39	clojurebot	datatype is see datatypes
06:40	licoresse	it's just a square box, does not convey anything IMO
07:05	tufflax	If I have made a seq of a vector, how can I revert the seq to a vector in constant time?
07:05	liwp	I don't think you can do it in constant time...
07:06	liwp	I think after it's a seq, you can only access it via the seq api which doesn't allow you to convert it to a vector in constant time
07:07	liwp	but (vec) will convert a seq to a vector for you, just not in constant time
07:07	tufflax	But the seq IS a vector...
07:07	tomoj	huh
07:07	tufflax	Isn't it?
07:07	tomoj	no vector is a seq
07:07	liwp	sure, but the seq interface only allows (vec) to call next on it
07:07	tufflax	I mean, underneath
07:07	tomoj	oh, perhaps
07:08	tomoj	,(class (seq []))
07:08	clojurebot	nil
07:08	tomoj	err
07:08	tufflax	,(class (seq [1]))
07:08	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
07:08	liwp	so vec will call next on the seq until there are no more elements, i.e. O(n)
07:08	liwp	I might be totally wrong of course ;-)
07:08	tufflax	hehe
07:08	tomoj	if you know that the seq was produced from a vector, then you should have access to the vector, no?
07:09	liwp	,(source vec)
07:09	clojurebot	Source not found
07:09	LauJensen	~source vec
07:09	tufflax	Maybe :P
07:09	tomoj	and if the seq was created far away, how do you know it's a vector?
07:09	tomoj	part of the contract of your function is that you have to pass a particular kind of seq, or something?
07:10	tufflax	No, I'm just curious
07:10	tomoj	or maybe it could be O(1) on vectors and O(n) on other kinds of seqs
07:10	_ato	,wall-hack-field
07:10	clojurebot	#<java_utils$wall_hack_field__654 clojure.contrib.java_utils$wall_hack_field__654@19230b2>
07:11	_ato	,(wall-hack-field clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq vec (seq [1 2 3]))
07:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$vec__4296 cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named
07:11	_ato	hmm
07:11	_ato	,(wall-hack-field clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq 'vec (seq [1 2 3]))
07:11	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.reflect.ReflectPermission suppressAccessChecks)
07:12	_ato	dang
07:12	tomoj	,(doc wall-hack-field)
07:12	clojurebot	"([class-name field-name obj]); Access to private or protected field."
07:12	liwp	looking at PersistentVector.java there doesn't seems to be any special casing for creating a new vector from a seq that is a vector underneath
07:13	_ato	it'd probably work in a regular repl (not in clojurebot's sandbox)
07:13	_ato	technically constant-time
07:13	_ato	although it uses reflection
07:13	_ato	so its probably slow :-P
07:13	_ato	(and a horribly ugly hack that will eat your babies)
07:15	tufflax	:p
07:30	zakwilson	Anybody awake host a Clojure app on Google App Engine?
07:35	liwp	I haven't used clojure with app engine, but I just saw this on my RSS reader: http://www.infoq.com/articles/deadline-clojure-appengine
07:36	liwp	and there are some other posts about it as well, I think
07:36	liwp	HTH
07:43	rhickey	whew, now 3500 members on ggroup
07:44	bsteuber	n1ce
07:49	chouser	I assume that the more knowledge of Clojure is decentrallized (through books, co-workers who know it, etc.) the larger the ratio of Clojure users to ggroup members will become.
07:50	cemerick	Yeah, probably somewhere between a 1x and 10x multiple, maybe. :-)
07:50	chouser	right
07:50	lpetit	sure
07:51	chouser	I mena, I've never hung out in IRC channels or subscribed to mailing lists for any of the other languages I've learned. Never really even considered doing so.
07:52	cemerick	#clojure brought me back into irc in a big way. I had given up on it.
07:52	cemerick	Not that it's to be trusted, but graphs like this are surprising to me. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=clojure%2Cjruby%2Cscala
07:55	chouser	hrm, it's going to be hard to keep http://clojure.org/libraries up to date. Correcting bad links will be easy compared to removing "dead" projects and keeping latest relevent ones listed.
07:55	chouser	neight leiningen nor clojure-maven-plugin is on there, for example.
07:56	chouser	neither
07:56	carkh	i think the new protocol/reify/deftyp stuff might bring more people in, because of the performance boost
07:56	cemerick	that page can probably be replaced with two links: one searching google, the other searching github. ;-)
07:57	LauJensen	(or Gitorious)
07:58	cemerick	LauJensen: is that reasonably installable yet? The last time I looked at it, getting a local install running was a bear of a job.
07:58	LauJensen	I haven't tried
07:59	LauJensen	We picked it because of a cleaner interface, as well as Github being slowed to a crawl, presumable by Rich's weekly 7000 lines of commits :)
07:59	cemerick	I'd like to have a decent git UI in-house, but I surely am not going to shell out what github wants for FI.
08:00	fogus	"So far we tracked Clojure separately, but it is so close to Lisp and Scheme that it is indeed better to join it with the other Lisp like languages." -> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
08:00	LauJensen	cemerick: Use Magit or Egg? Both excellent UIs in their own right
08:01	LauJensen	fogus: wow, I didnt even know :)
08:01	cemerick	LauJensen: never tried them. We use gitosis, which is good enough for now.
08:01	LauJensen	Yea its decent
08:02	cemerick	LauJensen: You should know by now that I don't use anything that involves emacs. :-)
08:02	cemerick	gitx is my preferred local UI, tho
08:02	LauJensen	Oooh thats right, now I remember :)
08:10	rhickey	cemerick: what would the google search be?
08:12	LauJensen	rhickey: If you've seen the "Hacker Search" on my site, thats actual a google search which only gets results from my blog, cgrands, clojure.org and then finally Google. Its a nice way to restrict the search area
08:12	tomoj	huh, my city is listed in 2nd place on google trends for "clojure" :D
08:12	cemerick	rhickey: it'd be easy to rig up a little google search box that prepended 'clojure ' to the user-entered query. Prompt with "What would you like to do/build/etc with clojure?" (or whatever). Someone enters "web development", and is shown results for "clojure web development".
08:13	cemerick	That won't get them to the perfect libraries in one shot, but will get them very, very close.
08:13	rhickey	cemerick: no searches like that yield anything remotely like the libraries list. Not to say it doesn't need some updating...
08:13	cemerick	heh, the intro blog post on "Clojure Web Development with Ring" is result #4 for my example :-)
08:14	cemerick	rhickey: Sure, but who benefits from the libraries list, practically speaking? It's good for social proof of clojure itself, but I'm not sure people actually use it to find projects/libraries.
08:15	cemerick	(I say that in the context of the libraries listing always being out of date, as such manicured lists always are.)
08:15	carkh	it's usefull for newcomers
08:15	chouser	cemerick: we'll be starting a trial of github:fi at work soon
08:15	rhickey	cemerick: to the extent it was curated and comprehensive, why would you use anything else?
08:16	cemerick	rhickey: curating it would probably be a number of hours of work per week as things stand, nevermind as the community grows....
08:16	egaga	how about a convention for library writers to create a page which contains in specified format what the project name is and description, links to important pages, and then one can crawl all the github
08:16	cemerick	chouser: no kidding! Deep pockets over there. ;-)
08:17	rhickey	chouser: github:fi ?
08:17	cemerick	egaga: well, there's already a page showing projects that use clojure on github AFAIK
08:17	chouser	cemerick: well, the trial is free... :-)
08:17	cemerick	rhickey: http://fi.github.com/
08:18	zakwilson	I used clojure.org/libraries about an hour ago to see what sort of parser libraries are available for Clojure.
08:18	rhickey	other than the fork management and sparkle for same, why would one run local github?
08:19	chouser	rhickey: apparently putting our code on github's servers is off the table
08:19	rhickey	but you could run local git
08:20	rhickey	w/o github
08:20	LauJensen	w/ gitosis
08:20	cemerick	gitosis is not fun to deal with
08:20	LauJensen	cemerick: I thought it was - fond memories
08:22	cemerick	Having a single choke point for all permissions, etc is not good. It was painful enough with just a couple of guys, I can imagine it being totally unmanageable with >10.
08:24	chouser	github has a bunch of other features: peer review tools, patch commenting, etc.
08:26	cemerick	yeah, the baked-in code review is attractive
08:27	bsteuber	how about a wiki page that links to libraries? this would scale with the community
08:27	Chousuke	I think clojure.org is a wiki, so... there already is one :P
08:28	cemerick	actually, wouldn't clojars be the ideal canonical directory if it were widely used?
08:29	LauJensen	It would require some kind of supervision
08:31	carkh	from the look of it, clojar has no clear text on what the library does
08:31	rhickey	cemerick: I've yet to see clojars act as a directory
08:33	rhickey	so how does one find out how code review etc works on github? Do you just have to follow their blog?
08:34	Chousuke	most likely :P
08:34	rhickey	is documentation anathema to ruby-based sites?
08:34	Chousuke	it seems you can just open the page for a particular commit and leave a comment
08:38	bsteuber	I'd love to see libraries by user-added tags and number of references from project.clj/pox.xml files on github
08:38	chouser	rhickey: I just added a line note near the bottom of http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c733148ba0fb3ff7bbab133f5375422972e62d08
08:39	chouser	you can also see the box there to add a comment for the whole commit
08:41	rhickey	chouser: yeah, I saw little icons and plus signs and figured that out, but not the same as docs
08:41	chouser	true
08:41	cemerick	rhickey: yes, it would definitely need to expose a proper listing, and people would have to populate the description field in their poms / project.clj files.
08:42	rhickey	poms and project.clj files - do we need both?
08:42	cemerick	no, but some people use the former, others use the latter
08:43	chouser	poms will be .clj eventually
08:43	cemerick	ah, only poms are pushed to the repo, which makes sense
08:45	cemerick	I don't think XML will be overtaken, even among clojure projects.
08:45	rhickey	chouser: yes, I'm wondering why people don't apply their efforts to polyglot and make the clojure support awesome, lein is just going to be burdened with replacing all of maven eventually anyway, and we will be left on our new island. Clojure is about getting off of the Lisp island.
08:45	rhickey	not that pom files aren't hideous
08:45	cemerick	rhickey: clj polyglot is pretty damn great already, it turns out. I've been fiddling.
08:45	rhickey	cemerick: cool
08:46	bsteuber	cemerick: do you have a good tutorial?
08:46	chouser	rhickey: it is interesting to hear you weigh in on this -- I had assumed you were intentionally avoiding voicing an opinion. :-)
08:46	cemerick	bsteuber: I'll put up another screencast when I get through my current queue.
08:46	bsteuber	cool
08:46	chouser	maven pom.clj files look very nearly identical to lein project.clj files
08:47	cemerick	it was sort of inevitable, given that it uses maven for deps and that there's only so many ways to skin the cat :-)
08:47	rhickey	chouser: going through the labrepl effort, we found that maven/POM is a lingua franca - if people use it for their projects they will have the greatest reach. IDEs and other tooling aren't going to support lein anytime soon
08:48	bsteuber	couldn't we just use a 1-to-1 mapping from xml to clojure?
08:48	chouser	it's very good that lein projects play well with the maven universe -- producing poms, able to be a dep and have deps from maven
08:48	rhickey	given a pom, you can just open a project and go in any of the IDEs
08:48	chouser	bsteuber: I think polyglot maven is either that or very close.
08:48	rhickey	chouser: but what is the round trip? Does lein modify its part of the POM or replace the whole thing?
08:49	bsteuber	ic
08:49	cemerick	rhickey: of course, tooling support will likely never be at parity for polyglot
08:49	cemerick	it's a one-off generation each time
08:49	rhickey	cemerick: same question, what's the round trip (if any)
08:50	bsteuber	I think lein replaces the whole pom
08:50	cemerick	all the polyglot impls are supposed to provide stable round-tripping. I don't think lein will generate a project.clj from a pom, but I could easily have that wrong.
08:51	rhickey	lein would have to make sure it preserved and didn't trash anything it didn't understand
08:51	rhickey	at that point, it would have to become a clojure-syntax dialect for maven, which is what polyglot is, no?
08:52	cemerick	right, exactly
08:52	_ato	lein currently doesn't read poms at all and I doubt there's any intention of making do so
08:52	chouser	my point is simply that having chosen to use lein is not a dead-end decision. You're not forcing other projects to use lein just provide/consume the dep, and if you decide later to switch to maven it's not likely to be difficult.
08:52	bsteuber	cemerick: do I have to manually call "clj->xml" and "xml->clj" when updating any of the poms? or does it somehow automatically do this from timestamps?
08:53	chouser	I for one am planning to learn maven.
08:53	cemerick	rhickey: to be clear, each polyglot impl is supposed to support the entire model, so there shouldn't ever be a part of an XML pom that can't be converted to a pom.clj
08:53	rhickey	cemerick: right, I presumed as much
08:53	cemerick	bsteuber: going back and forth between xml and clj really shouldn't be a common operation, or really one that you should have to worry about.
08:54	rhickey	I'm not saying maven is great, and quite frankly it frightens me, but wheel-reinventing and islands frighten me more
08:54	cemerick	rhickey: been there, done that? ;-)
08:55	bsteuber	rhickey: so when does clojure itself switch to mvn?
08:55	chouser	contrib already uses mvn
08:56	bsteuber	I know
08:56	underdev	chouser: have fun!
08:56	chouser	clojure currently has no deps, so little value there.
08:56	rhickey	chouser: so I commented on your line comment, and feel as if that discussion is completely in the wrong place, not connected to the issue, trapped in a single commit
08:56	chouser	underdev: :-/ yeah, I know.
08:57	rhickey	bsteuber: for what purpose? I don't even understand why contrib is maven. Someone posted a bug on that, in fact
08:58	bsteuber	hm, I think I'm just a fan of "one tool to rule (build) them all" - but I see it's not urgent at all :)
08:58	cemerick	rhickey: The maven release process is pretty compelling.
08:58	rhickey	cemerick: but what about that has to do with building?
08:59	chouser	rhickey: yeah, it'll be interesting to work out when/if commit comments make sense.
08:59	cemerick	rhickey: builds have to produce artifacts, which need to get into repositories eventually, and ideally be reflected as being associated with particular commits, etc.
09:00	rhickey	cemerick: is any of that happening with contrib?
09:00	cemerick	IMO, "the build" is everything that happens from the time a programmer types the last paren to when the end-user gets the software on his systems.
09:00	chouser	ha!
09:00	rhickey	I found this interested re: associating with commits, and other issues: http://dustin.github.com/2010/04/01/why-not-maven.html
09:01	cemerick	rhickey: Not sure. I think it was on Stuart's plan, tho he may not have gotten to the release automation part.
09:01	chouser	"from the time a programmer types the last paren" <- love it
09:01	rhickey	all I know is building contrib got harder for me, and much uglier
09:02	cemerick	part of that is that core isn't using maven, so there's some bridging that has to happen there now
09:02	rhickey	why does it always print "no sources to compile" and "no tests to run? every time it compiles and runs tests?
09:03	cemerick	Not sure, but that's probably it looking for Java sources to compile and test.
09:03	mattrepl	playing well with others seems important
09:03	cemerick	It's a simple thing to disable that if it matters.
09:03	LauJensen	rhickey: So you strongly favor ant for building Clojure projects?
09:04	rhickey	LauJensen: I didn't say that, just trying to tease out the costs/benefits
09:04	LauJensen	Ok great
09:04	rhickey	any was simple to install, few deps, worked well
09:04	rhickey	ant
09:04	vu3rdd	rhickey: I along with another guy package clojure/clojure-contrib for debian
09:04	rhickey	maven was big and ugly and didn't seem to produce a different result
09:05	_ato	for contrib and core, depedendency management is basically overkill. For other projects that necessarily have more dependencies its useful
09:05	vu3rdd	contrib definitely is a bit of pain to build as debian does not allow "pulling the whole internet" to do the builds.
09:05	vu3rdd	we need to use the maven local repo.
09:05	rhickey	anyway, what say maven fans to the critique I linked to above?
09:06	vu3rdd	debian folks have a wrapper for maven which uses only the local repo
09:06	underdev	maven fans? oh maven fans....
09:06	underdev	<crickets>
09:06	cemerick	9.9
09:07	cemerick	bbl
09:07	bsteuber	rhickey: I'm a mvn newb myself, but I guess the point is that stuff like IDE integration as you said outweigh most of its warts
09:07	vu3rdd	ant definitely is much simpler
09:08	bsteuber	also, we could just write better clojure-specific mvn plugins that do the jobs
09:08	bsteuber	I'd love a clojure-framework to support writing own maven plugins :)
09:08	bsteuber	should not be hard, I guess
09:08	underdev	chouser is on it!
09:09	underdev	you've been volunteered
09:09	chouser	ugh -- that critique worries me, because it's exactly the friction against unusual build requirements that's prompting me to learn maven.
09:09	chouser	so if maven is going to fail me in that regard ... :-(
09:11	_ato	I had much the same experience with maven, island or not at least a lein plugin is trivial to write. Ant + maven tasks is probably also a reasonable solution, use ant for your builds and maven only for dependency management
09:11	chouser	IDE integration isn't much of a plus for me. Actually, almost a minus as things that have IDE integration often seem to need it to mitigate other weaknesses.
09:11	chouser	I'm looking at you, Java.
09:12	rhickey	chouser: but library authors should care that people who use IDEs might want to work with their lib in an IDE
09:12	_ato	standard directory structure is about all that it needs
09:13	rhickey	emacs+slime rulez is just going to limit the reach of Clojure
09:13	rhickey	and good Clojure people have written good IDE support
09:13	chouser	well, I wasn't advocating slime either. :-)
09:13	rhickey	cli rulez
09:13	chouser	there we go
09:13	rhickey	:)
09:14	carkh	what's cli ?
09:14	jcromartie	if I wanted to use Clojure at work, I would absolutely need to show them an Eclipse/IDEA/NetBeans plugin
09:14	underdev	command line interface
09:14	carkh	underdev: thanks
09:14	jcromartie	and say "look! click click click It's just like Java"
09:14	LauJensen	cemerick makes a good case for Netbeans + Maven I think
09:15	chouser	no, I definitely want my libs to play well with others. clojure-jna for example needs to be updated to declare deps and be accessible as a dep in some good "standard" way.
09:15	chouser	...which apparently means some amount of work to obey lein or maven rules.
09:15	LauJensen	well. He's fond of it. The "simplest possible xml config" weighing in at 38 lines with mysterious keywords scattered was unattractive
09:15	rhickey	if it was a big deal, or even required touching an IDE to make you lib IDE-friendly, that would be one thing, if it's just a matter of a (possibly generated) POM...
09:16	bsteuber	I think if we really care about the island thing, there's no escape from maven - so the best we can do is thinking of how to make it as usable as possible for clojure folk
09:16	chouser	so in the context of a little lib like clojure-jna, I'm doing nothing unusual, just need some deps -- don't even need to AOT compile -- just writing a pom or having lein generate one for me is attractive.
09:17	bsteuber	and actually, I do sometimes want to deliver a clojure app as mac os bundle or using webstart, where existing mvn plugins are a blessing
09:18	vu3rdd	it will be great if we have a simple config with key-value pairs of project name, version, dependencies with versions etc etc and a tool chich generates project.clj or pom.xml or whatever
09:18	chouser	but at work we have a relatively complex build system -- code in at least 4 general-purpose languages, files in at least 3 other DSLs each with their own code generator (each generating at least 2 languages)...
09:18	LauJensen	There's also Gradle...
09:19	chouser	what we've got now works, but requires lots of coaxing and hand-holding. I'm hoping maven will allow me to clean all that up, but "why-not-maven" worries me.
09:19	chouser	I guess I'll still give it a try...
09:20	stuartsierra	chouser: Maven will help somewhat by forcing you to clarify the relationships between projects/modules.
09:20	stuartsierra	But it might also require rethinking your entire build.
09:20	underdev	bsteuber: i watched a screen cast where they used maven in netbeans to make a .dm... was excited. Then when it kept failing to build, or even find, the stuff for labrepl, i really didn't know where to begin. Maybe i have a hard time abstracting the java stuff from the maven stuff...
09:21	chouser	the relationships are clear, I think. starting from a clean checkout everything builds fine.
09:21	chouser	that is, all the internal deps are declared so that things build in the right order
09:21	underdev	"pc load letter" all day.
09:22	chouser	underdev: what does that even mean?
09:22	_ato	chouser: from my experience maven works fine on simpler apps, basically anything that can fit witin its cnoventions. I simlarly converted a lot of Java apps that used monsterous mixes of shell scripts and windows batch files at work over to maven. More complex stuff is doable if you're willing to invest a heck of a lot of time -- the documentation is generally terrible and the user interface (ie config files and command-line)
09:22	_ato	likewise.
09:22	chouser	_ato: :-(
09:23	_ato	I'd really like to like maven, really.
09:23	LauJensen	You're not selling it very well ato
09:23	_ato	I wish it were the answer to my problems
09:23	bsteuber	underdev: same problems for me, but I hope once I'm done with the mvn books it all will be a breeze
09:23	LauJensen	In this context, what do you guys think about Gradle, it seems pretty mature
09:24	underdev	and i found a really nifty pom to put stuff on google app engine. There may come a day where the pain of learning is outweighed by the benefits of using it. This day, at least for me, is not that day.
09:24	chouser	gradle requires me to use yet another language with it's own irregular syntax?
09:25	LauJensen	I dont know what you mean by irregular, Groovy as a language is straightforward and easy to pick up
09:25	underdev	otoh, maven smells like a tool that a tool like an ide would like.
09:25	_ato	but right now it's just not good enough, I mean sure its got zillions of plugins and IDE support and such, but if it takes me 3 times as long to figure out how to use them than to hack a up quick lein plugin or shell script then I'm happy on my island
09:26	underdev	^^^^^
09:26	LauJensen	Yea the Lein island is happy island :)
09:27	bsteuber	so how do I deploy swt applications for different OS'es using lein?
09:27	underdev	i was just going on a three hour tour...
09:27	bsteuber	my impression was that lein stops being that simple once you want more than a simple clj project with jar deps
09:28	bsteuber	but maybe I just didn't learn enough
09:29	LauJensen	lein doesn't have the myriad of plugins that Maven does, but shouldn't there be a sensible division between building and deploying?
09:30	cemerick	LauJensen: so, there's a sensible division between automating stuff using existing tools, and rolling your own half-baked solutions? </snark> ;-)
09:32	LauJensen	cemerick: Oh thats right, you considered it a single task
09:32	LauJensen	Well I can follow that logic as well, but as Maven has proven, that complicates the matter a little bit
09:32	chouser	cemerick: are you back? do you have a response to that page rhickey linked to?
09:33	_ato	I don't deploy SWT apps to 3 platforms. What is there to it? To me it's build an uberjar and let people download it. If you want installers and such then that's up to you figure it out. Use maven if it fits, or extend lein, or use some other tool that's whole purpose in life is making installers
09:34	cemerick	chouser: coming back slowly :-)
09:34	bsteuber	ato: the point is, swt uses native libs, so you need different uberjars depending on your user's OS
09:35	underdev	there is yet another tack possible. Making lein do more maven monkey tricks. I forked it to nose around in it, to see what might be done.
09:35	chouser	I don't see the line where building stops and deploying starts. To build, I need to fetch deps, so I need to declare what they are. To deploy a lib I need to declare what I provide and what else you might need. Shouldn't that all be declared in a single format in a single file?
09:35	cemerick	underdev: That makes no sense IMO. Gradle is the endpoint of that approach, which I don't think serves anyone.
09:36	underdev	except one would need facility in clojure, not groovy
09:37	_ato	bsteuber: as far as I know, someone added native library support, I'm not sure how extensive it is. In any case it'd be trivial to write a custom lein task that pulls in the files you need for each platform and spits out 3 uberjars
09:39	underdev	i think it would be cool to have a dir, drop a pom in it, and lein does the rest
09:39	underdev	it would make sense to me, perhaps only to me...
09:39	bsteuber	ato: hm, okay - I got stuck when trying, but this was prabably lack of determination (and lein docs at that time), so I used a shell script instead
09:40	cemerick	underdev: you just described polyglot maven :-)
09:40	stuartsierra	rhickey: I'm just joining this conversation, reading your comments re Maven for Contrib.
09:40	stuartsierra	My goal with switching contrib to Maven was to simplify the build.
09:40	underdev	that's not ready for primetime, rt?
09:40	cemerick	underdev: very, very close
09:40	cemerick	screencast coming soon :-)
09:41	underdev	excellent
09:41	stuartsierra	rhickey: The build.xml for contrib was several hundred lines, difficult to modify, and buggy.
09:42	stuartsierra	The pom.xml for contrib, even with extra configuration, is 137 lines, all declarative.
09:42	rhickey	stuartsierra: what did it do?
09:42	stuartsierra	the build.xml?
09:43	rhickey	more generally, what's involved in building contrib?
09:43	stuartsierra	rhickey: Sure, but it's more complicated than that now. Bootstrapping core.clj, AOT-compiling, ...
09:44	stuartsierra	rhickey: Building contrib has 3 steps: 1) compile gen-class'ing Clojure sources, 2) test, 3) build a JAR
09:44	npoektop	hi! if i use a macro from another file, and i change that file, i must recompile macro-using-file explicitely. Is there a way to automatically recompile all those files that use a macro when i change a macro?
09:45	stuartsierra	rhickey: The Ant build script AOT-compiled .clj sources in two stages, the gen-class ones first, in a specific order.
09:45	Chousuke	137 lines still sounds like a lot but I suppose a fair chunk of it is either boilerplate or XML's natural verbosity.
09:45	underdev	lisp's mortal enemies
09:46	stuartsierra	rhickey: The order of compilation turned out to be important. After switching to Maven, several bugs were exposed regarding the order in which files got AOT-compiled, which we were able to fix.
09:46	stuartsierra	Now the build doesn't depend on any particular order in which files get AOT-compiled.
09:46	Chousuke	underdev: poms are declarative, though, so it's not so bad.
09:46	underdev	rt
09:46	chouser	npoektop: I don't think there's any automated solution to that.
09:47	LauJensen	stuartsierra: sounds like quite an improvement
09:47	underdev	but being declarative, they're operation isn't transparent. but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish
09:47	licoresse	Got a Kinder-egg toy today that i could'nt build :(
09:47	underdev	their*
09:47	cemerick	rhickey: regarding that link you posted a while back: if you're using maven to cut releases, you use the release plugin, which will auto-increment the version number (or you can specify it, once), and then it will do a clean checkout, twiddle the version number, do the build, run the tests, deploy the artifact(s), and then tag and push a new SCM commit using the version number you specified.
09:47	stuartsierra	LauJensen: It was messy for a while, because we had to find those bugs and fix them, but I think I can safely say that the contrib build is safer and more predictable now.
09:48	LauJensen	Great - I think I'll make an attempt at understanding it :)
09:48	rhickey	stuartsierra: I'm all for it being easier to maintain. Is there any way to keep it from saying no sources/no tests while building?
09:49	stuartsierra	rhickey: probably not, because that's part of the default build lifecycle
09:49	cemerick	stuartsierra: no, there is
09:49	stuartsierra	cemerick: how?
09:50	cemerick	stuartsierra: if we're talking about compiling java files, you can evict maven-compiler-plugin from the compile phase
09:51	stuartsierra	oh really?
09:51	stuartsierra	rhickey: The biggest problem with Maven, I think, is that it's an all-or-nothing deal. It works best when it can control everything.
09:53	underdev	there was a blog post comparing it to tai chi or something, you do best when you yin it's yang, or something to that effect
09:55	stuartsierra	cemerick: Do you know how to disable maven-compiler-plugin in the POM?
09:55	underdev	YOU'RE YANGING!!
09:55	stuartsierra	underdev: I am indeed.
09:56	_ato	maybe you use this custom lifecycle stuff and remove it from the compile phase? http://www.sonatype.com/people/2009/08/create-a-customized-build-process-in-maven/
09:57	cemerick	stuartsierra: fiddling now
09:59	underdev	whoa, mengu!
09:59	underdev	hahahahhahahaha
10:00	mengu	hi underdev :)
10:01	mengu	yeah from twitter :P
10:01	_ato	this is what I mean by its pretty easy for simple stuff but as soon as you need to do something custom you hit a brickwall of new terminology and what appears to be complexity for complexities sake. Sure it can do everything but the learning curve is a cliff face and you don't have any chalk -- climbing it hurts!
10:02	djpowell	how does maven make it easier to use someone else's library? just sticking the jar files in your lib folder doesn't seem that hard anyway. I don't see how maven makes anything more noob friendly. i feel I wouldn't be remotely qualified to use it unless i'd read a book explaining all of its concepts and processes, and persuaded everyone on the project to do the same; and i'd just rather spend that time doing something else, like
10:02	djpowell	watching tv or something
10:02	underdev	nice
10:02	_ato	are the books on it any good? do they help?
10:03	chouser	djpowell: I want to use ring. ring has a half-dozen dependencies. So, should I go and download each of those deps manually?
10:03	djpowell	it doesn't seem to be that much of a chore
10:04	chouser	really!? when I have to do it again each time I upgrade ring?
10:05	carkh	ring should have the libraries in its source control, problem solved
10:05	djpowell	i don't know - perhaps if you work on lots of very short projects, that are very dependency heavy, then downloading dependencies starts to take up a significant portion of development time, but I don't usually hit that problem
10:05	naeu	in Ruby I can create a big array of numbers like so: a = (0..10000000).to_a
10:05	cemerick	carkh: I'll pretend you didn't say that. :-)
10:05	carkh	cemerick: hehe that's what i do on my own projects
10:05	naeu	however, if I try something similar in Clojure I run out of memory: (def a (vec (range 10000000)))
10:06	cemerick	oy
10:06	carkh	why is this a problem ?
10:06	chouser	carkh: sure, but then the ring dev has the same problem -- he's got to fetch all his deps manually. Also it means I can't just use his jar anymore, I've got to use his revision control tool and fetch his code.
10:06	hiredman	naeu: the default jvm heap is small
10:06	cemerick	for one, your source repo will grow very, very large over time
10:06	_ato	naeu: the JVM has a heap limit you can set on the command-line with eg. -Xmx512m for 512MB
10:06	naeu	does Clojure use more memory than Ruby in this kind of situation, or does the JVM place more constraints on memory availability?
10:06	cemerick	but beyond that, what chouser said :-)
10:07	naeu	what might the default jvm heap size be, and how might i determine it?
10:07	cemerick	stuartsierra: OK, I lied. You can unbind executions for plugins that don't bind themselves automagically, which is what maven-compiler-plugin does. :-/
10:07	carkh	cemerick: repo size isn't a problem these days, as for chouser, the maintainer has to pick and choose manually anyways
10:08	cemerick	carkh: when each version of the dependencies is 1, 2, 5, 10MB, that's still a problem
10:08	stuartsierra	cemerick: That's what I thought.
10:08	hiredman	~google default jvm heap size
10:08	clojurebot	First, out of 18500 results is:
10:08	clojurebot	HotSpot Internals - Understanding Xss- java stack internals
10:08	clojurebot	http://forums.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=756468
10:08	chouser	there's a reason that every dev environment has tools to address this problem: apt, yum, etc. for C/C++ dev, CPAN for perl, gems for ruby, etc. And apparently maven for java.
10:09	carkh	could be overengineering
10:09	chouser	yep, could be. But it isn't. :-)
10:10	stuartsierra	Programmers love automating things.
10:10	underdev	i think we all want dep management, but we want it be more like fishing than diving into the icy arctic waters of alaska with a k-bar in our teeth
10:10	chouser	cemerick: so there's no way to prevent maven from trying to compile java files? or am I misunderstanding?
10:11	cemerick	chouser: you can set an exclude, so it won't ever compile anything, but no, it looks like the compilation is hardwired.
10:11	stuartsierra	I think it can be prevented, but at the cost of defining a new project lifecycle. Seems hardly worth the effort.
10:12	cemerick	chouser: Seriously? :-\|
10:13	chouser	cemerick: it betrays a troubling design attitude.
10:13	djpowell	I don't think apt and cpan etc are build tools as well as binary libary download tools are they?
10:13	_ato	djpowell: they are
10:13	_ato	well in some sense
10:13	chouser	djpowell: taken together, they are.
10:13	chouser	cpan certainly does builds of native libs
10:13	_ato	depends what you define apt as being, but all the apt tools together are
10:13	metronome	naeu: ruby does use a whole lot of memory for that as well
10:13	_ato	and cpan definitely is
10:13	stuartsierra	chouser: It's not hard-wired into Maven, but it is hard wired into the "jar" lifecycle, which assumes you're building Java software.
10:14	chouser	stuartsierra: ah, that's a bit better.
10:14	cemerick	chouser: It's funny, people complain that maven "downloads the internet" because it doesn't ball up all its bits into a massive download, but people complain when it always does certain incredibly common things because it shouldn't be making assumptions. :-P
10:14	stuartsierra	chouser: So we could define a "clj-jar" lifecycle, which might be useful at some point.
10:14	naeu	metronome: I'm sure it does - it's just that I'm new to the JVM, and so it's interesting to know the constraints and how I might get a feel for them from within Clojure
10:15	chouser	_ato: right. apt sits on top of dpkg and friends which definitely includes a complex multi-language build environment. With 'make' down in its guts somewhere.
10:15	metronome	naeu: I know I was just saying :) but yeah there is a per-platform maximum heap size
10:16	naeu	metronome: is there some way of accessing these JVM settings from within Clojure?
10:16	djpowell	,(.maxMemory (Runtime/getRuntime))
10:16	clojurebot	66650112
10:16	underdev	yeah, i'll take apt-get with maven in the guts some where.
10:17	naeu	djpowell: thanks :-)
10:17	djpowell	you can also look at System/getProperties, and JMX for even more stuff
10:18	naeu	is there a way of listing the static/instance methods of a Java object from within Clojure?
10:18	chouser	naeu: clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show
10:18	naeu	at the moment I always refer to the documentation
10:19	naeu	chouser: oh great, thanks!
10:21	chouser	huh -- clojure could determine at method-resolution time (either compile time or at runtime reflection) when a method has varArgs, I think could automatically wrap in an array for you.
10:21	chouser	would that be desirable?
10:22	stuartsierra	chouser: how would it distinguish between varArgs and a single array argument?
10:23	bsteuber	,(map #(.getName %) (.getMethods (.getClass (java.lang.Integer. 5))))
10:23	clojurebot	("hashCode" "reverseBytes" "compareTo" "compareTo" "equals" "toString" "toString" "toString" "toHexString" "valueOf" "valueOf" "valueOf" "decode" "reverse" "byteValue" "shortValue" "intValue" "longValue" "floatValue" "doubleValue" "parseInt" "parseInt" "toOctalString" "toBinaryString" "getInteger" "getInteger" "getInteger" "highestOneBit" "lowestOneBit" "numberOfLeadingZeros" "numberOfTrailingZeros" "bitCount" "rotateLeft"
10:23	_ato	the compiler knows how many args you passed in
10:23	_ato	ah
10:23	_ato	but if there's only one it doesn't
10:23	chouser	,(map #(.getName %) (filter #(.isVarArgs %) (.getMethods String)))
10:23	clojurebot	("format" "format")
10:24	stuartsierra	ah
10:24	_ato	nice
10:24	djpowell	ah - i didn't know the jvm even knew about varargs
10:25	chouser	I suppose it would complicate already rather complicated method resolution logic.
10:25	npoektop	i've just showed slime to my co-worker, and he said he would never spend years learning emacs just to use this tool.
10:26	djpowell	show him nxml-mode!
10:26	doseq	Emacs is an archeological artefact.
10:27	doseq	;)
10:28	hoeck	npoektop: what is the preferred editor/IDE of your co-worker?
10:28	cemerick	doseq: no ;-) necessary :-)
10:28	npoektop	i don't know that word: weakling or smth?
10:28	npoektop	hoeck, eclipse
10:29	doseq	cemerick: I'm too old to be genuinely provocative.
10:29	djpowell	I don't use emacs for Java unless I need to go query-replace-regexp crazy, I use it about 50% of the time for clojure, and I use it for text and xml.
10:30	cemerick	doseq: yeah, I'm feeling aged myself in that vector
10:31	stuartsierra	emacs is like religion, you have to be indoctrinated early
10:31	cemerick	The church's best days are long, long past.
10:31	_ato	what converted me was on and off over a long time watching a competent emacs user colleague use it. The speed and ease with which they got things done was tempting enough to override the learning curve. It's not for everyone though, it seems to take a certain type of crazy. I was already halfway down that path anyway.
10:32	stuartsierra	Someone remarked to me that all the original Emacs devs were pianists (like me), which is why they weren't bothered by seven-finger commands.
10:32	doseq	I would tolerate it if they used a modern approach to interface design and exposed features gradually.
10:33	doseq	Eclipse is the same. Developers need a bang on the head to say, hey, users haven't seen every step of the development curve like you have. They possess no mental model... you're approach is wrong.
10:33	tcrayford	I've been tempted to write a game like learning mode for emacs
10:34	tcrayford	The clojure dojo I go to spends ~90% of the time struggling with emacs :(
10:34	LauJensen	doseq: You have been flagged for criticizing Emacs once - The second offense results in immediate and permanent ban from the Internet
10:34	djpowell	I discovered that emacs lets you edit .patch files the other day, and automatically fixes up the hunk headers, and will also tidy up superfluous white-space differences. That is pretty cool.
10:34	_ato	Emacs not being built like a modern GUI app is half the point of it
10:34	doseq	LauJensen: noes! :D
10:34	stuartsierra	I learned Emacs from the tutorials, it's not that hard really. But you have to take the time.
10:35	doseq	Well, it doesn't even need to be a GUI... just an expositional text UI would do it.
10:35	Chousuke	emacs is not built like a modern GUI app because it is not one :P
10:35	djpowell	the tutorials eschew things like the arrow keys though, which is a bit too hardcore
10:35	Chousuke	it has its own UI paradigms
10:35	doseq	They just throw everything in there and hope you won't notice how confusing it is.
10:35	Chousuke	that's not true either.
10:36	_ato	try the tutorial
10:36	doseq	shrug I have my own views.
10:36	tcrayford	having to take the time to learn emacs has put quite a few people I know off even trying clojure :/
10:36	Chousuke	emacs development started back when you needed to read manuals to even boot a computer :P
10:36	LauJensen	tcrayford: If Emacs was too hard for them, Clojure would have killed them
10:36	cemerick	tcrayford: point them at any of the very nice IDE plugins!
10:36	cemerick	LauJensen: that is categorically false
10:37	tcrayford	agreeing with cemerick there
10:37	tcrayford	clojure has been easier to learn than any other language I've tried
10:37	LauJensen	You can agree all afternoon, doesn't change the fact that if you cant figure out a text editor, functional programming is beyond you
10:37	cemerick	emacs is too hard for me, thanks very much. Or, I should say, I've got better things to do than fiddle with .emacs files all day.
10:37	LauJensen	cemerick: like fiddling with Maven? :)
10:38	doseq	Clojure has that nice quality of being easy to get started... (+ 1 2 3) is the gateway drug.
10:38	tufflax	LauJensen emacs is not hard in the same way, not that clojure is all that hard
10:38	underdev	boom goes the canon, no braggin, try to read my mind just imagine
10:38	_ato	heh, both Emacs and Clojure are pretty mind-blowingly different from the status quo
10:39	doseq	Mind you, I came from reading Little Schemer and it's WAY better than that.
10:39	cemerick	LauJensen: yeah; one influences my lonely editor, the other I can use to automate my entire software development process.
10:39	doseq	F*ck car and cdr, and cdddr or whatever else they thought was super-awesome back in the 60s.
10:40	LauJensen	doseq: Watch your language please
10:40	doseq	LauJensen: is my self-censorship not sufficiently powerful?
10:40	tufflax	haha
10:40	LauJensen	No- Take a lesson from China
10:41	doseq	Well, car and cdr deserve it.
10:41	LauJensen	Anyway - I weigh preferences heavily, so that if one like cemerick prefers Netbeans I think its very great that the option is there, but I struggle to take it seriously when people "cant figure out Emacs"
10:41	cemerick	My liking NetBeans vs eclipse vs intellij has essentially nothing to do with the IDEs themselves.
10:42	doseq	I don't think it's that they couldn't figure it out, just that most of the population isn't masochistic enough to bother.
10:42	cemerick	I'm totally agnostic w.r.t. IDEs, build tools (despite what people think), and anything else that is auxiliary to what I'm actually trying to get done.
10:43	LauJensen	I'm completely with you on that cemerick
10:44	cemerick	LauJensen: Be more empathetic then. :-) Most people really, really don't care about their editor, so when presented with a huge opportunity cost for learning emacs, it's totally rational for 95% of all devs to walk away happily.
10:44	naeu	I like emacs - in general i like anything that's sufficiently challenging that the processes of mastering it teaches in abundance
10:44	doseq	I got a lot out of reading the UNIX creators' writing about cognitive engineering and their idea of how software tools should snap together thought-wise. Not saying UNIX ever really pulled that off totally, but it was/is a good idea.
10:45	naeu	from that perspective I draw parallels between emacs and clojure
10:45	tomoj	is clojure missing a fold operator?
10:45	chouser	cemerick: good luck
10:45	hiredman	tomoj: seriously?
10:45	chouser	tomoj: 'reduce'?
10:45	tomoj	yes, but what about the other one
10:45	cemerick	chouser: I am zen. I am like the earth, trammeled yet immovable. ;-)
10:46	tomoj	it's chiral
10:46	esj	+1 for chiral.... nice word
10:46	cemerick	tomoj: reduce over an rseq?
10:47	tomoj	hmm
10:47	cemerick	I presume you're talking about foldRight, in scala terminology
10:47	tomoj	yes, one or the other
10:47	cemerick	or, er, foldLeft. I could never remember which is which.
10:47	tomoj	I can't figure out now which is which
10:47	cemerick	ha!
10:47	cemerick	#scala FTW!
10:47	hiredman	clojurebot: foldl?
10:47	clojurebot	No entiendo
10:48	hiredman	clojurebot: fold?
10:48	clojurebot	fold2 is (defn fold2 [f1 acc1 f2 acc2 list] (if (nil? list) [acc1 acc2] (recur f1 (f1 (first list) acc1) f2 (f2 (first list) acc2) list)))
10:48	hiredman	clojurebot: very helpful
10:48	clojurebot	Pardon?
10:49	tcrayford	can't you just use reverse before a foldl?
10:49	tcrayford	seeing as you're walking the list anyway
10:50	tomoj	fold2 is broken
10:51	tomoj	it should be this https://gist.github.com/1e0df667660e862d7a0c
10:51	webwanderer	hi, the repl says that it can't resolve 'rename'
10:52	webwanderer	are these library functions?
10:52	webwanderer	,rename
10:52	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: rename in this context
10:52	tomoj	what would be better would be to have an easy way to define fold operators on sum types
10:52	hoeck	,clojure.set/rename
10:52	clojurebot	#<set$rename__7548 clojure.set$rename__7548@1203412>
10:53	webwanderer	cool
10:55	LauJensen	cemerick: Sure they can walk away, and many do and thats fine. My point is simply, that in the context of learning a functional Lisp, please dont play the "I cant figure out Emacs" card. It seems like a distorted argument
10:57	cemerick	LauJensen: that's just shorthand for "It's not worth spending time on this."
10:57	doseq	I get the feeling this comes up a lot.
10:58	LauJensen	cemerick: How would you know, if you never learned? :)
10:58	chouser	LauJensen: conversely, I would ask again that you refrain from hobbling potential Clojure users with the impression they also must learn this other largely unrelated project, regardless of their size.
10:58	LauJensen	eh?
10:59	chouser	it's size
10:59	LauJensen	hobbling?
10:59	chouser	tripping them up
10:59	LauJensen	chouser: Like I said "walk away and thats fine" - I'm really the most happy when everybody is using what makes them most productive. For you its Vim, for cemerick its Netbeans, for me its Emacs - I have no preference on your behalf
10:59	underdev	stop breaking the knees of short people interested in clojure!
11:00	tomoj	does this mean we shouldn't talk about emacs?
11:00	cemerick	LauJensen: I've never learned objc, and I know it's not worth spending time on it. :-)
11:00	LauJensen	cemerick: Tell that to the many self-made millionaires using objc :)
11:00	cemerick	tomoj: I think it just means that, when talking to totally new potential clojure programmers, point at IDE plugins first.
11:01	underdev	#clojure #clojure-emacs #clojure-editor-war #clojure-build-systems #clojure-just-clojure-dammit
11:01	tomoj	ok, unless they happen to like emacs ? :)
11:01	cemerick	tomoj: or, in general, be context-sensitive/aware
11:01	cemerick	right
11:01	doseq	cemerick: I wish wish wish I could convince myself that manual memory management was worth the effort. Surely iPhone garbage collection can't be that hard.
11:02	cemerick	doseq: ha! :-D
11:02	tomoj	does it not do garbage collection because it needs some time guarantee?
11:02	tomoj	like GC causes unpredictable slowdown?
11:03	stuartsierra	tomoj: It's an older language, when GC was still suspect.
11:04	doseq	Well, they introduced it in Obj-C 2.0 for the Mac. Just not iPhone.
11:04	stuartsierra	huh, didn't know that
11:04	doseq	Yeah, it's an option now.
11:05	doseq	I spent about a month reading Apple's documentation and then my head exploded.
11:05	chouser	cemerick: rather than pointing toward IDE plugins, I'd suggest pointing toward whatever is closest to what they already like: IDE, emacs, vim, whatever.
11:05	doseq	Every single page requires about 5 other pages.
11:06	doseq	Are there any visual expression builders for Clojure already?
11:07	stuartsierra	doseq: paredit, sort of
11:07	stuartsierra	I tried once: it's harder than it sounds
11:07	doseq	stuartsierra: building one you mean?
11:08	stuartsierra	yes
11:08	technomancy	stuartsierra: you pinged a few days ago?
11:08	technomancy	(pang?)
11:08	stuartsierra	technomancy: Yeah, was talking to talios again about getting a release of swank-clojure into Maven central.
11:08	technomancy	oh, ok
11:09	technomancy	I'm actually hoping to gather up what we've got into a 1.2.0 release
11:09	technomancy	the break stuff is pretty major
11:09	doseq	I started one the other day using HTML form elements to represent nested expressions, I'm fiddling with it.
11:09	stuartsierra	technomancy: Cool, that would be an important first step.
11:09	stuartsierra	doseq: that's what I tried
11:10	doseq	stuartsierra: cool, if you ever want to pick it back up you can collaborate with me if you want.
11:11	stuartsierra	doseq: sure, if I ever have time to go back to it... :)
11:11	doseq	stuartsierra: I'll let you know how I go.
11:11	npoektop	hey, guys, what time is now in Washington? I need Pacific time, but can't understand, it 8pm or 7pm
11:12	hiredman	neither
11:12	technomancy	stuartsierra: after that I'm wondering about handing off maintainership to hugod
11:12	npoektop	oops 8am or 7am
11:12	technomancy	he's much more qualified than I =)
11:12	npoektop	or 9ma
11:12	technomancy	npoektop: depends on whether you honor the monstrosity of daylight savings or not
11:13	stuartsierra	technomancy: ok, that's fine too. I'd like to get a repo set up for it somewhere, so whoever's maintaining it can sync to central.
11:13	technomancy	for those that do it's a little past 8am
11:13	npoektop	i'm not sure. they said 01:00pm to 02:00pm PT
11:13	technomancy	stuartsierra: can it sync from clojars?
11:15	stuartsierra	technomancy: Not as it exists now. A sync-able repo must be complete, self-contained, and contain only releases.
11:15	technomancy	gotcha
11:15	technomancy	so they can't just skip SNAPSHOTS
11:15	stuartsierra	no, nor can you say "sync just project X from repo Y"
11:16	webwanderer	How do I set the repl to pprint by default?
11:16	stuartsierra	technomancy: But a repo is just a directory on a web server, so it would be possible to create a second repo on clojars, with some attention to management.
11:17	technomancy	sure; just not a lot of demand from within the community for such a thing
11:18	webwanderer	default pretty print.. anybody?
11:18	webwanderer	*default automatic
11:19	stuartsierra	technomancy: it's necessary if the clojure maven plugin wants to use swank-clojure as a dependency.
11:20	stuartsierra	Or if we want to create Maven archetypes that set up the POM for a Clojure project with swank/contrib/etc. automatically.
11:20	technomancy	oh, not saying that's unimportant; just that users of clojars don't have a direct need for a releases-only repo
11:21	stuartsierra	Well, I'd become a user of clojars then...
11:21	stuartsierra	indirectly...
11:22	stuartsierra	But I think if anyone is going to publish a library they should make the extra effort to cut a release.
11:22	stuartsierra	All these snapshots all over the place are a nuisance.
11:23	technomancy	definitely
11:23	stuartsierra	chouser: ugh
11:23	technomancy	but keeping them in the same repo has worked great for me so far
11:23	chouser	stuartsierra: :-)
11:24	stuartsierra	technomancy: oh, sure, that's fine by me. Until you want to sync them to the rest of the world.
11:24	technomancy	seems like it would be the job of the sync process to filter out the unwanted versions
11:24	technomancy	I think that's pretty easy with couch replication
11:24	stuartsierra	Perhaps it should be, but it doesn't do that.
11:25	stuartsierra	Maven sync is just rsync mirroring.
11:25	_ato	rsync --exclude '*-SNAPSHOT' :-P
11:25	stuartsierra	Don't blame me, I don't run it.
11:27	technomancy	I think it's a fine feature; it's just one of those many things that hasn't been implemented because nobody's needed it.
11:28	stuartsierra	We need it to build a bridge off the clojars island. :)
11:29	_ato	shouldn't be too hard to provide a "release-only" view the Clojars repo, if that's all that is required
11:29	_ato	isn't there some stuff about signing packages and such as well though?
11:30	stuartsierra	_ato: I don't think packages need be signed, but they must have license/author metadata, and they must have no dependencies not available in the Maven central repo.
11:30	stuartsierra	In other words, packages in Maven central may only depend on other packages in central.
11:33	doseq	When the docs say host booleans are "boxed", does that mean they're objects instead of primitives?
11:34	lpetit	doseq: ye
11:34	lpetit	s
11:34	technomancy	could just block snapshots from being downloaded when it sees the maven rsync user-agent. =)
11:34	_ato	hehe
11:35	doseq	lpetit: thx!
11:36	_ato	I wonder if anyone's already built a tool for validating whether something meets the maven central criteria
11:36	stuartsierra	technomancy: I don't think that would be sufficient: it's a manual application process.
11:36	_ato	:(
11:36	stuartsierra	And it still doesn't solve the self-contained dependencies problem.
11:38	stuartsierra	_ato: The criteria are simple: 1) no snapshots, 2) accurate metadata, 3) no external repositories
11:38	_ato	"To improve the quality of the Central Maven repository, we require you to provide PGP signatures for all your artifacts (all files except checksums),"
11:38	_ato	http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-central-repository-upload.html
11:38	stuartsierra	ah, ok, but there's a plugin for that :)
11:39	stuartsierra	talios knows more about this than I do
11:39	_ato	"This used to be the preferred process but we are no longer accepting rsync requests on a per project basis."
11:39	_ato	"Rsyncs will be provided for Forges that provide hosting services for OSS projects and other large project repositories that meet certain minimum criteria such as validation of PGP keys and pom contents as defined above. "
11:39	_ato	well I guess maybe Clojars counts as that
11:39	_ato	although it doesn't have PGP keys and validation
11:39	stuartsierra	Yes, and sonian hosts a free Maven repo for open-source projects.
11:41	_ato	hmmm there's 4 approved forges: Apache, Codehaus, Sonatype and Fusesource
11:42	technomancy	stuartsierra: are test dependencies outside maven central OK?
11:42	technomancy	swank-clojure only has dev-dependencies
11:42	stuartsierra	technomancy: I don't think so
11:42	technomancy	ok, well the dev-deps don't make it to the pom currently anyway
11:42	stuartsierra	That should be fine then.
11:44	_ato	http://nexus.sonatype.org/oss-repository-hosting.html
11:44	_ato	"After the ticket is created, we will prepare repositories on http://oss.sonatype.org for you. We will update the ticket once it’s done. Normally it takes less than 2 working days."
11:44	stuartsierra	Yes, I meant sonatype, not sonian.
11:45	technomancy	having a dependency on clojure from swank-clojure is kind of redundant anyway
11:46	technomancy	who's going to use swank-clojure without already having a dependency on clojure? =)
11:47	stuartsierra	right
11:47	stuartsierra	And clojure releases 1.0 and 1.1 are in central already.
11:48	doseq	Is it legit to implement a multi-user app in clojure by giving all the users their own namespace?
11:48	stuartsierra	doseq: no
11:49	doseq	What would be the idiomatic approach to that?
11:49	stuartsierra	doseq: implement a security protocol :)
11:49	technomancy	doseq: it might be OK if the app were centered around running clojure code or something
11:49	technomancy	where each user could have a sandbox
11:49	stuartsierra	namespaces are not isolated or protected from one another
11:50	technomancy	but in general that's not a great idea
11:50	_ato	heh, yeah just what I was thinking, if the app is a multi-user Clojure programming sandbox...
11:50	doseq	Yeah, it'd be a multi-user reader type situation where a web app intermediates the messages.
11:51	stuartsierra	Then if it's anything more than a toy you need isolation between users.
11:51	_ato	doseq: so a client/server model with accounts?
11:52	doseq	Oh I see, because if they knew there were other namespaces they could just run some commands to find out what they are... gotcha.
11:52	stuartsierra	yep
11:53	doseq	_ato: Yeah I'm just doing some thought experiments on ways to expose the reader via a multi-user web app.
11:54	hiredman	if reading is all you are doing you can just bind eval-reader or whatever to false
11:54	stuartsierra	(doc read-eval)
11:54	clojurebot	"; When set to logical false, the EvalReader (#=(...)) is disabled in the read/load in the thread-local binding. Example: (binding [read-eval false] (read-string \"#=(eval (def x 3))\")) Defaults to true"
11:54	hiredman	man, message queues are handy, everyone should have one
11:55	danlarkin	amen
11:55	hiredman	I can email someone this url, go take a nap, and when they click on the url a message goes in my queue which when delivered causes a siren.wav to play on my laptop and wake me up
11:56	doseq	hiredman: yeah it'd be a read-eval.
11:56	_ato	doseq: http://github.com/licenser/clj-sandbox/ may be relevant for you
11:57	_ato	you have to be pretty restrictive though
11:57	pjstadig	hiredman: what's the url?
11:57	stuartsierra	hiredman: There's gotta be potential for an app there.
11:57	pjstadig	:)
11:57	_ato	eg allowing java interop is basically a game-over
11:57	hiredman	stuartsierra: right
11:57	_ato	unless you whitelist it
11:57	hiredman	it totally is
11:57	danlarkin	yeah give us the url so we can wake you up :)
11:58	hiredman	can you imagine working on a project and the database guy is busy but will get your schema set up eventually
11:58	hiredman	and you have a command you want to run once the schema is setup
11:58	technomancy	danlarkin: you still need to press two switches 8 feet apart and have three out of the five launch codes to do it.
11:58	hiredman	you give him a url to visit
11:58	danlarkin	damn!
11:59	hiredman	and 'block-on-remote-button 10 && do-stuff'
11:59	doseq	Thanks! clj-sandbox looks really interesting.
12:00	danlarkin	you've gotta believe we've tried to breed soldiers with an 8 foot armspan for just this reason
12:00	pjstadig	futuristic ninja robot soldiers?!?!
12:00	pjstadig	sweet!
12:00	hiredman	clojurebot: fururistic?
12:00	clojurebot	No entiendo
12:00	hiredman	clojurebot: futuristic?
12:00	clojurebot	Pardon?
12:01	rhickey	I just pushed some perf tweaks, should help in many areas
12:01	stuartsierra	rhickey: great!
12:02	rhickey	also, you'll now get reflection warnings on unhinted aget/aset/alength
12:02	pjstadig	clojurebot: mascot
12:02	clojurebot	the official mascot of clojure is a futuristic ninja robot
12:03	chouser	rhickey: count used to be inlined, but you backed it out May 29th. I'm trying to remember why.
12:04	rhickey	chouser: I think I was trying 2 things then, one was a specific overload for Counted
12:04	doseq	This link is so amazingly helpful: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/docs/clojure-docs.html
12:07	rhickey	chouser: this new thing, foo + fooFrom just helps HotSpot split off the fast path, as was done for seq
12:08	chouser	ok, that's interesting. I was about to ask what the value was, since the semantics appear to be unchanged.
12:09	chouser	or nearly. I didn't see how the null check first could be hurting anything.
12:46	doseq	Is there a way to disable Java interop?
12:48	defn	my guess is no
12:49	defn	(class (str "abc")) => java.lang.String
12:49	ipostelnik	doseq, in what sense?
12:50	patrkris	is there a standard function to unzip a seq of n-dimensional vectors into a seq of n seqs?
12:50	doseq	ipostelnik: like, a Clojure-only mode where arbitrary Java access isn't allowed.
12:51	ipostelnik	doseq, most of clojure/core is still implemented in Java, though less so than 1.2
12:51	bsteuber	doseq: guess you have to block . and all .methods by hand
12:51	bsteuber	i.e. ehen reading input
12:51	bsteuber	when
12:51	doseq	I'm just thinking ahead to Clojure-in-Clojure, probably best not to develop any bad habits early.
12:59	defn	doseq: if you're worried about that sort of thing (and i personally wouldn't be), just dont use java interop forms
13:00	defn	i dont think you need to protect yourself from it
13:01	doseq	Ok. It's also sort of an effort to delineate Clojure from Java, to figure out how possible it is to explain Clojure to people who know nothing about Java (and don't want to know). But thanks for that.
13:18	Crowb4r	part of clojure's poweer is it's access to JAVA
13:20	doseq	Agreed, but from a teaching point of view the fewer tangents and rabbit holes, the better.
13:25	metronome	clojure wouldn't make much sense without the interop though
13:26	doseq	But the goal is to evolve into a bootstrapped Clojure-in-Clojure scenario where the JVM isn't a requirement any more.
13:29	metronome	is it? that sounds cool but it will take a lot of work. I don't particularly like java but the JVM is incredible so it's a small sacrifice :)
13:30	dakrone	clojure-in-clojure allows for doing things like ClojureCLR with .NET interop much more easily
13:30	dakrone	so if you didn't care for the JVM, you could use CLR
13:30	metronome	I'm still kinda new to the lisp world anyway, so I don't really know where clojure is going, was just my guess by having read the current codebase
13:32	liebke	doseq: even after cinc, Clojure will be a hosted language, with much of its functionality residing in the host platform, whether it's the JVM or the CLR.
13:40	dakrone	technomancy: did you get my pull request for leiningen?
13:41	technomancy	dakrone: yeah, I've been sick for a week or so =\
13:41	ztellman	does anyone know if protocols are supposed to support variadic arguments?
13:41	dakrone	technomancy: oh okay, I saw the flow of dev stop, wondered if you were traveling or whatnot
13:42	technomancy	that too
13:42	dakrone	technomancy: is there any easy way to add java arguments to the 'lein repl' task?
13:45	dakrone	technomancy: also; hope you feel better soon :)
13:45	technomancy	JAVA_OPTS works for -Dfoo=bar type stuff I think.
13:45	technomancy	thanks, I'm on the mend. =)
13:45	dakrone	okay
13:45	dakrone	thanks
13:52	stuartsierra	With today's deftype patch, I get errors like "ClassCastException: <some deftype> cannot be cast to <another deftype>"
13:54	stuartsierra	Where both deftypes have fields with the same names.
13:57	patrkris	is it best practice to always deref a ref to retrieve its value although it is callable as a function? That is, is it best practice to do (@a-ref :some-key), even though (a-ref :some-key) works?
13:57	stuartsierra	yes
13:58	Crowb4r	yes
13:58	stuartsierra	refs being callable is an implementation detail
13:59	patrkris	right, thanks
14:08	chouser	stuartsierra: what? that's not guaranteed?
14:08	stuartsierra	I can't find the source
14:08	stuartsierra	And now it seems to have disappeared.
14:08	stuartsierra	Nope, still there
14:09	chouser	callable vars doesn't fall out naturally from anything else -- that support seems to be hand-coded in Var.java
14:09	chouser	and I use that feature all over the place
14:10	stuartsierra	oh wait, I was talking about my deftype problem
14:10	chouser	oh, sorry.
14:10	chouser	oh, and you were talking about refs anyway, not vars
14:10	chouser	sheesh
14:11	chouser	sorry, I'll go back to not paying attention
14:13	stuartsierra	Something to do with using reify to implement ILookup
14:14	stuartsierra	But I can't isolate it.
14:16	cemerick	chouser: re: IDE plugins, I totally agree, every recommendation should be context-dependent.
14:16	chouser	cemerick: yay. :-)
14:21	stuartsierra	Found it!
14:23	stuartsierra	rhickey: bug in latest deftype patch: http://paste.lisp.org/+235M
14:26	stuartsierra	This happens in other situations too, this is just the simplest case I could find.
14:27	stuartsierra	Something to do with binding of a reified ILookup at the call site, I think.
14:35	chouser	stantont: that's with latest master?
14:35	chouser	oops, that was supposed to be stuartsierra
14:35	chouser	this works fine for me on master at the moment
14:36	chouser	oh, scratch that. I'm seeing the exception.
14:44	brian__	noob question> why does does this work with def but not defn? (def counter (let [count (ref 0)] #(dosync (alter count inc))))
14:47	Chousuke	brian__: how are you defining it with defn?
14:47	brian__	sorry, i missed the []
14:47	brian__	it works, sorry
14:48	brian__	i gues my question ,then , is what is the difference?
14:50	Chousuke	nothing much
14:50	Chousuke	defn attaches some metadata and the fn actually has a real name instead of a generated one
14:50	brian__	why have two then?
14:50	brian__	ok
14:51	Chousuke	defn is syntactic sugar for defining functions
15:03	chouser	stuartsierra: I think I have a patch for your bug
15:03	stuartsierra	chouser: great!
15:07	chouser	...but I've got a vague suspicion I'm doing it all wrong.
15:09	stuartsierra	oh
15:09	stuartsierra	do you know what the cause is, at least?
15:10	chouser	actually, I think it is right. http://paste.lisp.org/display/97402#1
15:12	stuartsierra	I don't understand that code well enough to say.
15:12	chouser	If I understand correctly, the code in Compiler that generated ILookupThunk checked that it was being passed the right type.
15:13	chouser	and if not, returned its 'this' arg. The reify code that replaced it didn't do that, so I put it back in.
15:13	stuartsierra	ok, sounds reasonable
15:14	chouser	I assume that class comparison costs some performance, and maybe there's a faster way to do it, but this seems to give correct results and I think is in the right spirit.
15:14	stuartsierra	It's all at compilation time anyway, right?
15:14	chouser	no, that class equality check is on every lookup
15:15	stuartsierra	oh
15:15	stuartsierra	that doesn't sound right
15:15	chouser	in the cache-hit case even, to see if it needs to fault out and find a correct LookupThunk
15:16	stuartsierra	but what do I know
15:16	chouser	I'm mostly concerned about the = there -- perhaps it should be .equals or 'identical?'
15:17	chouser	hm, I bet 'identical?' would be better.
15:18	stuartsierra	Do you know why reify was used for ILookup in the first place?
15:19	chouser	I would guess for simplicity -- replaced a couple dozen lines of ASM code with 2 lines of reify
15:19	chouser	...which should have been 5 lines of reify. :-)
15:19	stuartsierra	ah
15:22	chouser	it's a bit unnerving how I reach back to experience with postscript and HP calculators to comprehend Compiler.java
15:23	stuartsierra	well, it's a stack language, after all
15:24	stuartsierra	I've toyed with the idea of writing inline Java bytecode in Clojure.
15:39	chouser	~seen rhickey
15:39	clojurebot	rhickey was last seen in #clojure, 211 minutes ago saying: chouser: this new thing, foo + fooFrom just helps HotSpot split off the fast path, as was done for seq
15:39	rhickey	chouser: I'm working on stuartsierra's bug
15:39	chouser	rhickey: you saw my patch?
15:39	rhickey	I did
15:40	chouser	ok
15:40	rhickey	thanks
15:40	rhickey	did you try it?
15:40	chouser	my patch? yeah, seemed to work.
15:41	chouser	oh.
15:41	chouser	well, I only tried it on his test case. sorry.
15:42	patrkris	which thread pool does future use?
15:42	chouser	patrkris: the same as send-off
15:43	patrkris	chouser: thanks
15:43	stuartsierra	I thought send-off always created a new Thread
15:43	patrkris	stuartsierra: as I understand it, it uses an "expandable" thread pool
15:43	hiredman	it's a pool, so it may cache threads
15:43	stuartsierra	ah
15:43	chouser	clojure.lang.Agent/soloExecutor
15:44	chouser	which is a Executors.newCachedThreadPool
15:57	rhickey	stuartsierra: fix is up
15:57	stuartsierra	rhickey: awesome!
15:59	rhickey	chouser: the problem with your patch is that the classname won't exist when AOTing. My patch grabs the class of this and has the reify close over it
15:59	chouser	yep, I see it.
15:59	rhickey	so, with your patch Clojure didn't build
16:00	chouser	I'm guessing I had some success when testing dynamically because old versions of the class sometimes existed
16:00	rhickey	the problem you ran into was one of the reasons I put this in the compiler in the first place, had forgotten about the issue
16:01	chouser	closing over the actual class value is a clever solution
16:01	clojurebot	-cp and CLASSPATH are mutually exclusive
16:01	rhickey	I didn't think of is the first time
16:01	rhickey	of it
16:01	stuartsierra	rhickey: see, now if you were building Clojure with Maven, the snapshot JARs would already be in the repository and I wouldn't have to wait for Hudson ...
16:02	rhickey	stuartsierra: builds from my machine should be canonic?
16:02	stuartsierra	snapshots, yes
16:02	chouser	they used to be. :-)
16:02	rhickey	chouser: not really, only releases
16:03	rhickey	stuartsierra: I disagree, having the build server reproduce the build is a good quality step, I could have things not checked in
16:03	stuartsierra	true
16:04	chouser	do seqs cache their hash?
16:04	rhickey	it's there now
16:04	stuartsierra	ok
16:06	stuartsierra	I found my copy of maven-ant-tasks.jar anyway :)
16:09	stuartsierra	Thanks, now lazytest works again
16:09	stuartsierra	Along with source directory watchers!
16:10	stuartsierra	Still some bugs to work out, including the fact that generated test suites always get named "nil"
16:10	chouser	unit tests as a service?
16:10	stuartsierra	chouser: More like continuous integration. Change a file, tests get re-run.
16:10	chouser	interesting
16:11	stuartsierra	that came from Halloway's circumspec
16:12	stuartsierra	later folks
16:32	wthidden	Is it possible to read a deftype object from a file?
16:33	chouser	no direct support for that currently, I think.
16:33	Chousuke	they have a literal syntax though.
16:33	technomancy	wthidden: if you define a pr-str method for it when you serialize it you could read it back in
16:33	chouser	well, you could read (Foo 1 2) or something
16:33	Chousuke	#:Foo{:k 1 :k2 2}
16:33	chouser	Chousuke: but that's not readable yet
16:33	Chousuke	no? :/
16:34	wthidden	Hmmm as I suspected.
16:34	Chousuke	how is it not readable if it
16:34	Chousuke	it's the literal
16:34	wthidden	the #: takes the reader for ride.
16:35	wthidden	The reader looks as the ':' as a dispatch character and does not find it.
16:35	wthidden	*at
16:36	chouser	right, the #:Foo{} output is not meant to be readable. At the very least it would have to be fully qualified
16:36	Chousuke	right.
16:37	wthidden	So i guess i switch back to struct for my task definitions.
16:37	chouser	structs aren't readable either, are they?
16:37	wthidden	yes they are, or at least for me :)
16:38	tcrayford	rhickey: have people told you about the emerging languages conf? http://emerginglangs.com/ The organisers are quite keen to have you on board.
16:38	wthidden	not sure what would happen if the struct definition was not loaded before hand however.
16:38	chouser	,(class (struct (create-struct :a :b) 1 2))
16:38	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentStructMap
16:39	chouser	,(class (read-string (pr-str (struct (create-struct :a :b) 1 2))))
16:39	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
16:39	chouser	wthidden: they're read as array-maps, not structs.
16:39	wthidden	ah.. but for my purposes good enough.
16:40	chouser	oh, well in that case you can have your datatypes print as regular maps too.
16:42	wthidden	,(doc pr-str)
16:42	clojurebot	"([& xs]); pr to a string, returning it"
16:43	wthidden	chouser: thanks for the good tips.. need to check code in and get walking.
16:43	defn	hello all
16:47	patrkris	has there been any discussions on documentation formatting for docstrings? For example using something like markdown to document functions and what have you
16:48	chouser	patrkris: it has come up before.
16:50	patrkris	chouser: any initiatives?
16:50	chouser	patrkris: no, I don't think there's been any concensus on the direction to go
16:51	patrkris	ok - would be cool with something minimal that could help the reader
16:51	patrkris	for example just having a convention of marking argument names or even the function name to make it stand out in the docstring
16:51	chouser	you're thinking of autodoc pages or something else?
16:52	patrkris	well the formatting could help make autodoc pages more readable
16:52	patrkris	or at least the docstrings
16:54	patrkris	I find sometimes, when writing or reading a doc string for a function, that the text becomes less readable and in some cases ambiguous when referring to function/macro/var names, because the docstring is just plain text
16:54	patrkris	but maybe that's just me
16:54	chouser	well, it has come up before. :-)
16:54	patrkris	as you said, yes :)
16:55	technomancy	an elisp solution: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CheckDoc
16:55	patrkris	will check it out
16:55	patrkris	for now - see ya :)
17:14	rhickey	tcrayford: yes, I've accepted
17:16	rhickey	tcrayford: I don't know why I'm not on the list yet
17:16	tcrayford	awesome then. Wish I could go
17:20	defn	http://gist.github.com/358134 <-how would you implement a read fn on top of this code? similar to the write, but perhaps use an atom as a queue?
17:32	defn	Raynes: heh -- I must say your project description of sexpbot made me chuckle -- "a horrible design IRC bot written in clojure"
17:32	defn	horribly designed*
17:33	defn	Raynes: what's up with this wall-hack-method stuff? I've seen this in clojurebot and your bot now...
17:49	Raynes	defn: Well, I'm fairly certain that it is horribly designed.
17:49	Raynes	defn: The wall-hack-method allows me to call a protected method. What exactly it does is none of my concern.
17:50	Raynes	defn: It's a "first large project" sort of thing. So, I was never hopeful about the design stuff. :P
17:53	defn	Raynes: :)
17:54	defn	I'd just like to implement a small subset of your bot's functionality -- I'm wading around trying to find out what I can use to accomplish what I need to do.
17:55	defn	I'm looking to implement a basic reader which will parse lines for a channel, run a couple commands on the incoming line, and that's it.
18:00	defn	Raynes: anyway, it's not so bad -- i like your multimethods :)
18:01	erikcw1	I've deceloped a little test app using lein/swank. I'm now trying to figure out how to package it. I created a jar with "lein uberjar" - but when I run java -jar my.jar I get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: google-scraper/core - what am I missing?
18:01	Raynes	defn: :D
18:03	technomancy	erikcw1: you sure you're not running an old non-uber-jar you have left around?
18:04	erikcw1	technomancy: yup -- I did rm *.jar
18:04	defn	Raynes: oh and thanks for the walton plugin -- hopefully ill have some more progress on indentation and such
18:05	Raynes	defn: Yeah. I need to actually integrate it into the bot as well. So that people can be PMed with a few examples on request.
18:05	Raynes	Just haven't gotten around to it yet.
18:06	technomancy	erikcw1: creating the uberjar also creates the regular one; be sure you're using *-standalone.jar
18:06	defn	Raynes: no worries -- i notice the cycle is sort of "omg features!" and then 2 weeks ago by with nothing
18:06	defn	Raynes: the nature of the beast I guess
18:06	erikcw1	technomancy: yup -- using the *-standalone.jar
18:06	defn	2 weeks go*
18:07	Raynes	Hehe.
18:07	technomancy	erikcw1: if the code is public you could report a bug on the leiningen mailing list
18:59	defn	must...add..syntax..highlighting..to...walton...
19:06	technomancy	any chance we could get the patch on ticket #246 applied?
19:54	rhickey	technomancy: pushed
19:54	technomancy	rhickey: great; thanks!
19:55	rhickey	np
19:55	rhickey	you've been very patient
20:41	defn	it's moments like this that make me proud to be in this community
20:42	lancepantz	what happened?
20:43	defn	just seeing technomany toss out "any chance we could?...", and to have the creator of the language say "all done, you've been very patient" -- it's just nice to see the give and take
20:44	chessguy	i think i'm gonna cry....
20:44	defn	lol chessguy
20:45	defn	a guy who plays chess crying...
20:45	defn	anyway i didn't mean to make a huge deal out of it, i just find that sort of communication and consideration to be very important
20:46	defn	</rant>
20:46	chessguy	i.....i love you, defn!
20:46	chessguy	giggle
20:50	kwertii	anyone know whether Las3r (Clojure -> Flash/SWF compiler) is still alive? Cool idea, but no commits since last May.. :/
20:52	dysinger	I'm still looking for clojure help... team of 7 currently - looking for one more.
20:52	dysinger	aedon: aloha
20:53	dysinger	:)
20:53	chessguy	dysinger, what kind of project?
20:53	dysinger	document archiving, search, discovery & BI backend - multi-node cluster - all clojure
20:54	dysinger	all cloud
20:54	dysinger	trillions of docs
20:54	dysinger	blah blah blah
20:54	chessguy	a startup?
20:54	dysinger	3 years ago
20:54	kwertii	dysinger: are you looking for contractors or full time?
20:54	dysinger	both
20:56	kwertii	dysinger: I wrote an OpenCalais/RDF database based semantic parser/search engine for blog feeds. is that something like what you're up to?
20:58	chessguy	> ({})
20:59	chessguy	clojurebot, ({})
21:05	_ato	,({})
21:09	chessguy	anybody using eclipse + counterclockwise? what's a faster way to stop the repl, and reload it with the changes to the source?
21:16	dnolen	chessguy: have you tried (load "your-lib") at the REPL ?
21:26	chessguy	man, i am totally not getting the 'interactive' part of this interactive language
21:27	scottj	chessguy: if you've only changed one expression, there's a keystroke to eval that. if you've just changed one file, there's a keystroke to reload that file. They're probably in the menu
21:28	lancepantz	you don't have to use it
21:29	chessguy	ok, i have one file, the only line says: (def me {:first-name "andrew"})
21:29	chessguy	i "run as clojure repl" and eval "(me)"
21:29	lancepantz	i didn't see the need for it at first, then when i started doing more complex stuff i got it
21:29	chessguy	and it tells me it can't resolve "me"
21:30	chessguy	(and no, i'm not typing the quotes around (me)
21:32	scottj	chessguy: right clicking in your file pane and select clojure > load clojure file in repl
21:33	chessguy	hm, that works bette
21:33	chessguy	r
21:33	lancepantz	or you can (load-file x)
21:33	chessguy	but i still get: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentArrayMap (repl-1:2)
21:34	scottj	me is a map and you're trying to call it as a function
21:34	scottj	you want to eval "me". "(me)" tells clojure me is a function
21:35	chessguy	aha
21:35	chessguy	duh
21:35	scottj	of course maps can be used as functions, but you have to give them an arg. so you could call (me :first-name)
21:36	scottj	there's probably a way for eclipse to start a repl for a project and have it load your files, but I don't know (I use emacs)
21:42	chessguy	hm. i'm still screwing something up. now every time i go to load the file into the REPL it's erroring out because the definitions already exist
21:44	hiredman	chessguy: you are trying to def in the wrong namespace
21:44	chessguy	i'm not declaring a namespace
21:45	hiredman	if you def X in the namespace b and use b in namespace a
21:45	hiredman	then try to go and def X in a you get that error
21:49	chessguy	aha, problem was i was using something that was already defined in the core
21:57	chessguy	ok, i think i'm finally able to get around. just in time to go to bed...
22:12	dakrone	defn: ping
22:16	TheBusby	So what's the convention for dealing with multi-word project names and leiningen? I'm running into problems doing "lein new my-project"
22:20	dakrone	TheBusby: what do you mean? lein new my-project works fine for me
22:21	defn	dakrone: pong
22:21	TheBusby	when I go in the project.clj and add "main my-project.core", and then modify src/my_project/core.clj to have gen-class and a (defn -main...) the standalone uberjar fails with ClassNotFoundException
22:21	dakrone	defn: just wanted to let you know the link on your blog post seems to be going to the wrong place
22:22	defn	dakrone: thanks for the heads up
22:22	defn	fixing now
22:22	dakrone	defn: no problem, looks like a neat tool
22:22	TheBusby	wondering if ":main my-project.core", should read ":main my_project.core" instead...
22:22	dakrone	might want to run it through a (distinct ...) before displaying it though
22:23	defn	dakrone: fixed
22:23	dakrone	I noticed a lot of repeats
22:25	defn	dakrone: yeah that's on the list
22:25	defn	gonna turn the results into a sorted-set
22:25	defn	that oughta clean things up a bit
22:26	TheBusby	dakrone: seems like my-project works fine until you try and execute the uberjar, and then I think the different between "my-project" and "my_project" leaves java unable to execute -main
22:27	defn	TheBusby: i think your project.clj should be the '-', and your directory/files should use the underscore
22:27	TheBusby	defn: that's the way it does it by default, and it doesn't work
22:29	dakrone	TheBusby: trying it...
22:30	TheBusby	evidently "lein new my_project" works fine, but then you have (ns my_project.core (:gen-class)) which doesn't seem very clojury
22:31	dakrone	TheBusby: got it
22:31	dakrone	:main my_project.core
22:32	dakrone	in src/my_project/core.clj I have (ns my-project.core (:genclass))
22:32	dakrone	and then the (defn -main ...)
22:32	dakrone	and it works now
22:34	TheBusby	checking now
22:34	TheBusby	when I do that I get an error during "lein compile" where it says "my_project.core" not found after loading '/my_project/core'
22:35	TheBusby	when I do "lein version" I get "Leiningen 1.1.0 on Java 1.6.0_17 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM"
22:35	dakrone	what does your directory structure look like?
22:35	dakrone	and can you paste all of your project.clj and the (ns ...) part from your clj file?
22:35	TheBusby	~/my-project/project.clj and ~/my-project/src/my_project/core.clj
22:36	TheBusby	(defproject my-project "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"
22:36	TheBusby	:description "FIXME: write"
22:36	TheBusby	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0"]
22:36	TheBusby	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.1.0"]]
22:36	TheBusby	whoops, sorry
22:36	TheBusby	http://pastie.org/906835
22:37	TheBusby	http://pastie.org/906838 for core.clj
22:39	dakrone	this is really really weird
22:39	TheBusby	what version of lein are you using?
22:40	dakrone	I can build the uberjar sometimes
22:40	dakrone	1.1.0
22:40	TheBusby	sometimes?
22:40	dakrone	make a change to project.clj -> won't build, undo it -> won't build, make same change -> builds
22:41	TheBusby	doing "lein clean" between attempts?
22:41	dakrone	no, most likely the culprit
22:43	dakrone	very strange
22:44	TheBusby	still getting inconsistent results?
22:44	dakrone	sort of
22:44	dakrone	not having any luck
22:45	dakrone	alright.
22:45	dakrone	:main my_project.core
22:46	dakrone	(ns my_project.core (:gen-class))
22:46	dakrone	rm -rf classes lib *.jar
22:46	dakrone	that worked for me
22:46	dakrone	if you want I can post all the files
22:47	TheBusby	I get "lein new my_project" to work earlier
22:47	TheBusby	er, I got
22:47	TheBusby	but then you end up with the non-clojury ns name. Guess I should just file a bug?
22:47	dakrone	yea, it seems like using - means use _ everywhere except for the project name
22:49	dakrone	or, you could keep - in the project name and remove it from the source directory structure
22:49	TheBusby	does that work okay for non-*nix environments?
22:50	dakrone	which one? using _ or not having any -'s?
22:50	dakrone	your project could be named "my-project" and have src/myproject/core.clj
22:50	TheBusby	that works?
22:50	dakrone	you have the change the :main name
22:51	dakrone	the :main would be :main myproject.core and in core.clj the ns would be (ns myproject.core (:gen-class))
22:54	dakrone	TheBusby: anyway, I'm out for a bit, good luck!
22:55	TheBusby	dakrone: thanks for your help!
23:32	technomancy	TheBusby: confirmed there's a bug with the uberjar manifest
23:32	technomancy	it sure would help if Clojure exposed its own functions for converting between filenames and namespaces. =(
23:33	TheBusby	technomancy: I posted an "issue" to your github repo earlier with a repro plan
23:34	TheBusby	in the meantime though I just modified leiningen/jar.clj to do " (str "Main-Class: " (apply str (replace {\- \_} (str main)))) "
23:35	TheBusby	I doubt that's correct solution, but it's just what I'm using now...
23:35	TheBusby	I'm assuming the "my-project" to "my_project" conversion was necessary
23:45	technomancy	yeah, that's close enough