#clojure – 2010-03-16

2010-03-16

00:01	crowbar7	dnolen: Well, it's the whole aspect of threading not being a complete pita that draws me.
00:01	technomancy	this is strange... if a .clj file has a corresponding .class file with the same timestamp, the .class file gets ignored
00:02	technomancy	wouldn't it make more sense to prefer the .class file if they're the same age?
00:02	fanatico	although clojure's lifespan has yet to be determined, we can at least count on lisp outliving us all.
00:03	hiredman	technomancy: if they are the same age then the .clj has to be newer
00:04	hiredman	the class file is generated from the clj file, so it has to be younger unless the clj file was modified since it was generated
00:04	scgilardi	edited and compiled in the same second is unlikely enough that preferring the .clj file in that case seems the correct choice. somebody artificially manipulating the mod dates?
00:04	technomancy	hiredman: not necessarily, but in cases where the timestamp is lost (rsync shenanigans, etc) it does make sense to go the safe route and prefer .clj
00:04	technomancy	now that I think about it
00:05	technomancy	scgilardi: yeah, in this case coming from a jar file
00:06	technomancy	I guess if the timestamps are exactly the same it's a good bet that they can't be trusted.
00:06	scgilardi	but just jarring wouldn't affect the mod date. the loader code uses the timestamps inside the jar.
00:06	technomancy	scgilardi: well if you don't use java.util.zip.JarFile quite correctly it actually just uses the current time as the modification date, it looks like
00:07	scgilardi	gotchya, interesting
00:07	hiredman	:(
00:09	technomancy	I did just get a patch fixing lein's jar creation, but it made me wonder.
00:13	crowbar7	technomancy: Actually what turned me onto clojure originally was when I wrote an IRC bot with it for my old college computer club (pretty much every active member writes one at some point). The thing was not only was my bot the first and only one be multi-threaded, but it was easier for me to just thread the thing then make it serial.
00:15	crowbar7	My bot thus is also the only one that does not timeout from the irc server because he is hung up from some http query.
00:17	technomancy	slick. =)
01:42	slyphon	gah
02:29	psykotic	is reify working yet in the experimental branch?
02:32	hoeck	psykotic: its in the current master
02:32	psykotic	nice
02:32	hoeck	psykotic: never used it though, always using deftype to implement interfaces
02:33	psykotic	deftype calls out to reify though, no?
02:33	hoeck	yes
02:34	psykotic	good, thanks!
02:39	hoeck	psykotic: sorry, both reify and deftype expand to reify* and deftype* forms which are implemented in the compiler
02:39	rfg	Anyone know which GUI framework or look and feel JVisualVM uses? It's pretty.
02:39	hoeck	so deftype does at least not in clojure-land expand to reify
02:40	hoeck	rfg: I would bet it uses plain swing
02:41	psykotic	hoeck: the assembla page on deftype/reify implies that you still cannot define mutable fields with them. is that still the case?
02:42	psykotic	i need to interop with some java code that reflect over fields to do some magic--and that magic is only accessibly by that route, due to poor design
02:43	rfg	JVisualVM's titlebar has a subtle gradient and the font is different from my own swing window. How are those sorts of thing set?
02:44	psykotic	hoeck: actually, i think i might be better off calling java directly to construct a class on the fly, since i don't need to implement class methods that call clojure--i only need this class as a kind of schema for this java library.
02:44	hoeck	psykotic: according to the latest master doc, you can
02:45	psykotic	hoeck: hmm, good to know, i'll try it out, thanks again!
02:45	hoeck	psykotic: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/23f612edadfd629315c68d8962eaf86ee177d687/src/clj/clojure/core_deftype.clj#L239
02:45	psykotic	hoeck: that is awesome! seems the assembla docs are lagging a bit behind.
02:46	hoeck	(deftype myType [#^{:volatile-mutable true} field]) will get you a mytype with a volatile .field
02:48	psykotic	btw, is there a preferred workflow if i want to use the latest clojure, etc, with a lein project? i'm used to setting clojure as a dependency but obviously the latest master isn't a clojar :)
02:49	hoeck	rfg: maybe by using a customized/subclassed Component, or using decorators to paint the toolbars background
02:51	hoeck	rfg: btw, there is a lot of swing-related documentation around (I'm not a swing expert) :)
02:51	hoeck	and jvisualvm definitely uses swing, just took a look at it
02:54	rfg	Yeah, there's plenty of swing info, but a lot of it is ghastly :)
02:55	hoeck	psykotic: I have [org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"] in my deps and I think it gets the latest clojure from build.clojure.org
02:55	psykotic	interesting
02:56	psykotic	that's really neat, i had assumed it could only pull from clojars, maven central, etc
03:04	hoeck	there is so much magic in lein, it just said it downloaded clojure-20100311 from clojars, so no dl from build.clojure.org
03:52	mebaran151	anybody here use clojure box
03:52	mebaran151	I can't seem to get paredit to work....
03:53	LauJensen	Morning team
03:53	mebaran151	if I got it running, I might even put off installing Ubuntu for a bit
03:53	mebaran151	paredit on Windows 7 would be sick
03:59	TheBusby	mebaran151: I've had the same issue for a while
03:59	mebaran151	ah, so it's not a broken install
03:59	TheBusby	if you discover the fix, be sure to post it somewhere. ;)
03:59	TheBusby	if it is, I have the same broken install
03:59	mebaran151	would it be possible just to install emacs normally?
04:00	TheBusby	Regarding emacs + Windows, I know little to nothing
04:00	TheBusby	everything works fine in Ubuntu though ;)
04:01	rfg	mebaran151: Did you enable it in your .emacs?
04:02	rfg	mebaran151: Are you using Clojure Box?
04:03	mebaran151	rfg, yeah, I just got a nice shiny new VAIO
04:04	mebaran151	so I'm playing in Windows 7 and trying out Clojure Box
04:04	rfg	You have to enable paredit in your .emacs as per the Clojure Box readme.
04:05	mebaran151	I need to find a gnome-do replacement for Windows too
04:05	mebaran151	rfg: oh alright, I was surprised that paredit-mode wasn't available as per M-x
04:05	rfg	I don't know this "gnome-do" of which you speak.
04:05	mebaran151	it's like Quicksilver, a general launcher
04:05	rfg	mebaran151: I had the same problem. :)
04:06	mebaran151	ah thanks
04:06	rfg	Windows 7 is nice.
04:06	TheBusby	rfg: thanks
04:06	mebaran151	where's the .emacs file?
04:06	rfg	Though I've just spent the last ages pulling my hair out trying to get JOGL to behave on it.
04:07	rfg	mebaran151: it's in c:/Users/<you>/AppData/Roaming/
04:07	rfg	The quick way to get to it is in emacs cd to ~
04:07	noidi	mebaran151, http://www.launchy.net/
04:07	rfg	or directly: C-x-f ~/.emacs
04:08	mebaran151	so what do I change?
04:08	rfg	I think you just need to append (require 'paredit).
04:10	rfg	mebaran151: You'll want to throw this in as well http://jaguilar.posterous.com/i-get-so-tired-of-searching-fo
04:11	mebaran151	I actually don't mind the default color scheme of emacs, but maybe i don't know what I'm missing
04:11	rfg	:)
04:12	rfg	TheBusby: my pleasure.
04:14	mebaran151	does lein work on windows yet?
04:14	rfg	pass
04:15	mebaran151	anyway I think I got my .emacs file edited; how do I load it?
04:15	rfg	I've not used lein. What am I missing?
04:15	mebaran151	it's a saner version of maven
04:15	mebaran151	a far far far saner version of maven
04:16	rfg	mebaran151: google says
04:16	rfg	M-x load-file RET ~/.emacs RET
04:17	rfg	I need to remember that one, I tend just to close emacs and reopen.
04:18	rfg	Actually what I need is a big red button on my desk, whose sole function is to reload my .emacs. I change it that much.
04:18	clojurebot	http://www.math.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf
04:20	mebaran151	cool paredit mode works!
04:20	rfg	Nice
04:22	mebaran151	how do I make it the default for clojure-mode
04:22	noidi	(add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook (lambda () (paredit-mode +1)))
04:22	mebaran151	in my .emacs?
04:23	noidi	yup
04:26	mebaran151	now I just have to get hg working in windows, along with lein and a good launcher, and maybe a shell
04:26	mebaran151	and figure out where I'd put screenplay.el
04:36	mebaran151	hmph, powershell actually isn't that bad, and the hg install was painless
04:37	ordnungswidrig	mebaran151: screenplay?
04:38	mebaran151	heh, emacs has a nice easy screenplay mode I've been playing with
04:45	ordnungswidrig	for writing screenplays?
04:45	mebaran151	a little bit
04:45	mebaran151	as a hobby
04:45	mebaran151	I haven't gotten much into it yet
04:45	ordnungswidrig	I see, I just didn't get the connection to clojure g
04:46	mebaran151	ah, yeah, I'm setting up a new clojure dev environment in Windows
04:46	mebaran151	and I'm trying to see if I can get all the emacs bells and whistles from Linux to play nice in Windows 7, where files are hidden
04:47	ordnungswidrig	hmm, "files are hidden"?
04:51	LauJensen	Does anybody know what happened to Cemericks blog ?
04:54	mebaran151	*the location of files is not known to me at the moment
04:55	mebaran151	like where your .emacs.d belongs and what conventions work, etc
04:55	mebaran151	anyway I gotta go to bed: thanks rtg and everybody!
04:59	psykotic	yay
04:59	psykotic	my first working compiler hack :)
04:59	psykotic	i extended deftype/deftype* to take an optional :extends clause for specifying non-Object superclasses
04:59	LauJensen	Show us the code :)
05:00	psykotic	i'll post the patch on gist, sec
05:01	Chousuke	I think extending concrete classes with deftype is dangerous
05:01	AWizzArd	Why?
05:01	clojurebot	why not?
05:02	Chousuke	AWizzArd: you might inherit mutable state that you're unaware of.
05:02	psykotic	Chousuke: i'm using it for interop
05:02	psykotic	it might be better to split it into a separate function rather than deftype
05:02	psykotic	the concrete problem for me is that JNA is a piece of shit
05:03	psykotic	the only way to hook into their fancy structure type is to implement a subclass of Structure, so their code can reflect over the fields, etc
05:03	Chousuke	hmm :/
05:03	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
05:05	psykotic	here's the patch:
05:05	psykotic	http://gist.github.com/333781
05:10	LauJensen	Interesting
05:11	vy	Is deftype/defprotocol the last stone for the beginning of Clojure-in-Clojure?
05:12	psykotic	LauJensen: no, it's surprisingly tame code, but it took me 2 hours of mistakes to get there :)
05:13	Chousuke	vy: That's my impression
05:21	LauJensen	Chousuke: I think that was reify
05:28	callen	okay.
05:28	callen	leinengen needs to be preached to the people from on-high.
05:28	callen	just saying.
05:28	licoresse	yeah
05:29	callen	licoresse: would've saved me some pain the other day, but I suppose it's better that I know.
05:29	licoresse	:)
05:30	callen	licoresse: the classpath stuff was making me curse up a storm.
05:46	Chousuke	LauJensen: Reify alone wasn't enough for implementing the data stuctures
05:47	LauJensen	Right
05:47	psykotic	reify/deftype are more or less the same
05:47	psykotic	they're very different wrappers around Compiler.java's build() function
05:47	psykotic	err, very thin
06:18	LauJensen	~source deftype
06:18	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
06:18	LauJensen	~sourcey reify
06:18	clojurebot	excusez-moi
06:18	LauJensen	hehe
06:18	LauJensen	~source reify
06:18	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
06:19	LauJensen	argh he gonna make me do it myself
06:31	LauJensen	http://github.com/bagucode/clj-native
06:32	psykotic	LauJensen: doesn't do much useful :)
06:32	LauJensen	ok
06:32	psykotic	okay, maybe that isn't true
06:32	LauJensen	Chouser did something similar at one point I think
06:32	psykotic	it does some useful things but not the difficult thing i'm trying to do.
06:32	LauJensen	Check Github if you need inspiration
06:32	psykotic	yeah, i looked at his stuff too
06:34	krainboltgreene	Ta-da.
06:34	krainboltgreene	Is it me, or is the Clojure website rather...lacking?
06:38	defn	krainboltgreene: certainly not on information
06:38	defn	maybe on organization
06:38	defn	ive been pining for "examples", which sort of happened with autodoc, but not quite
06:39	defn	i have sort of a plan to take all of the irc logs from #clojure...ever...and parse them for lines of actual code people have written which include various function names, etc. and then tag all of it and make it searchable
06:40	zmila	,(doc replicate)
06:40	clojurebot	"([n x]); Returns a lazy seq of n xs."
06:40	zmila	,(doc repeat)
06:40	clojurebot	"([x] [n x]); Returns a lazy (infinite!, or length n if supplied) sequence of xs."
06:47	defn	testing logging...
06:48	krainboltgreene	defn: Agreed, organization and presentation.
06:49	TDT	Hmm..there has to be an easier way to do this. If I want to map a function onto a list, and just print out that list, I found I have to do something like: (str "my list: " (into [] (map (fn [x] (* 2 x)) mylist))), I'd use mapcar in CL to do something like this, is there a cleaner way of doing what I'm trying to do?
06:50	Maddas	To just print it out -- is there anything wrong with (print (map (fn [x] (* 2 x)) mylist))?
06:51	TDT	str concatenates it into a lazy sequence reference, tried that first before doing the into.
06:52	TDT	Elements in mylist, *2? clojure.lang.LazySeq@f6c2640b <-- example output from that type of call
06:54	ordnungswidrig	(print (apply str (map #(* 2 %) mylist)))
06:56	TDT	Parts of that are a bit cleaner, we lose the formatting of the list though as a result. I'll use elements of both, thanks Maddas and ordnungswidrig
06:57	defn	would someone mind rejoining the channel quick to let me test something?
06:57	Maddas	(print (map #(* 2 %) mylist)) keeps the formatting :-)
06:57	defn	after you rejoin just say "tada!"
06:57	defn	:)
06:58	Maddas	tada!
06:58	Maddas	:)
06:58	defn	thanks much
06:58	Maddas	You owe me one.
06:58	Maddas	:-P
06:58	defn	Haha
06:59	TDT	Maddas: hmm, so print and println also can concatenate, not just str...intersting
07:00	TDT	Maddas: (print "foo: " (map #(* 2 %) [1 2 3])) returns "foo: (2 4 6)"
07:03	Maddas	TDT: I didn't know str worked that way until you asked (I'm a CLer myself) :-)
07:04	TDT	heh, yeah, str is what's described in the programming clojure book I'm going through. I kinda wish there was just format, format nil and format t feels easier
07:06	zmila	,(get {120 [(30 40 50)]} 120 [])
07:07	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
07:07	zmila	missed ' (
07:07	Maddas	TDT: I've never used it, but there is pprint which claims to be format-compatible (in clojure-contrib)
07:08	TDT	Maddas: Thanks, that's one thing I think I'll do once I finish the book is read through the API docs for both core and contrib. I'm sure there's a lot of really cool stuff available in there.
07:32	ordnungswidrig	re
07:32	ordnungswidrig	grr
07:58	psykotic	for anyone more familiar with deftype and the compiler: type hinted fields don't seem to be defined as specially typed (beyond Object) in the generated class. is that intended?
08:00	hoeck	psykotic: thats right, type hinting works only for primitive types
08:00	cemerick	psykotic: are you getting reflection warnings when referring to those fields in clojure?
08:01	psykotic	cemerick: no
08:01	hoeck	that was at least my knowledge which may not be up to date anymore
08:01	psykotic	the problem is that i'm trying to talk to JNA, which reflects over the public fields and a class and does things depending on types, qualifiers, etc
08:01	psykotic	this functionality is not exposed through a less insane interface, unfortunately.
08:01	cemerick	hoeck: That's certainly not the case.
08:02	licoresse	Why can I not do this? (doto frame
08:02	licoresse	(.setLayout (FlowLayout.) )
08:02	licoresse	(doseq [idx some-vector] (do-something-with-sideeffects frame idx))
08:02	licoresse	.pack
08:02	licoresse	(.setVisible true))
08:03	noidi	licoresse, frame will be passed as the first argument to doseq
08:03	cemerick	licoresse: because doto injects 'frame' as the second symbol in each child form. (doseq frame) is nonsense
08:03	licoresse	aha
08:03	licoresse	doto is a macro
08:04	licoresse	thanks!
08:04	psykotic	cemerick: so field hints don't actually affect the types of the generated fields?
08:04	psykotic	or am i doing something wrong?
08:05	psykotic	(i'm reflecting over the fields using getFields() on the Class to determine that they're just Object rather than my specified types)
08:08	cemerick	psykotic: yes, that appears to be the case. Non primitives are expressed as Object in the generated class. (maybe this is what hoeck was getting at)
08:09	psykotic	hmm
08:09	psykotic	in any case, my intended course won't work because the autogenerated symbols will confuse JNA
08:09	hoeck	yes, I meant the "type hinting" of fields in deftype
08:10	hoeck	with the goal to generate class fields of the given type
08:10	psykotic	it would be nice if the current deftype was built on an intermediate abstraction for building java classes
08:10	psykotic	something less oo and ugly than the asm stuff
08:10	cemerick	hoeck: well, the type hinting works just fine, primitive or not. It appears that the expression of that type in the generated classfiles only applies to primitives.
08:11	psykotic	cemerick: dumb question but how do i specify an integer primitive type hint? i'm new to the jvm, so i had assumed that Integer was it.
08:11	cemerick	#^int will do it
08:11	psykotic	ah, i thought that would clash with the coercion function of the same name. thanks.
08:12	cemerick	psykotic: I'd ping the mailing list about this, or rhickey when he's around next.
08:12	psykotic	cemerick: okay.
08:13	cemerick	psykotic: Also, a strenuous reading of the deftype et al. docs might expose the state of play.
08:13	cemerick	s/strenuous/thorough :-)
08:13	psykotic	the ones on assembla?
08:13	cemerick	yeah
08:14	defn	i need to build a search engine for a ton of text i have locally. 0 to 255 characters in length. any ideas?
08:14	defn	(each text grouping is 255chars)
08:14	defn	approximately 15MB of these
08:18	fogus	defn: How about a trie?
08:18	psykotic	weird, when i specify the unsynchronized-mutable metadata for a field, it doesn't get generated in the class at all, it seems
08:19	defn	fogus: could you be more specific? I know about tries, but am totally clueless when it comes to implementing a search engine on top of them
08:19	defn	fogus: are you thinking of a "suffix tree"?
08:20	defn	does fnparse do something like this?
08:20	fogus	defn: I can't say for implementing a DB since I don't know enough about your problem... but Tries are ideal for storing string data. Suffix tries are even better for text searching
08:20	defn	so many questions...
08:20	noidi	why not use something like Lucene? I have never used it, so that's a genuine question :)
08:20	noidi	not a rhetorical one
08:21	defn	fogus: i got chouser's 12MB or so of IRC logs. I took out all of the nicks (to protect the innocent of course), and now I have a list of lists, where the inner lists contain a day's worth of IRC conversation
08:21	psykotic	defn: there's a unix search engine called grep. have you tried that? :)
08:21	defn	inner list*
08:21	fogus	I imagine there are 37 implementations of suffix trees in Java floating around the interwebs
08:22	chouser	those speaking in #clojure are rarely innocent
08:22	defn	:X
08:22	psykotic	defn: i may be smug but i'm not kidding.
08:23	defn	psykotic: nono i know you're not kidding
08:23	defn	but for 12-15MB of text? attached to a web interface with 4-5 users searching simultaneously?
08:23	fogus	defn: Xach did something vaguely similar to the Naggum archives... you might find something of relevance in his notes. http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/notes.html
08:23	defn	fogus: thanks for the help as always
08:23	noidi	_seems_ simple enough :P http://www.lucenetutorial.com/lucene-in-5-minutes.html
08:24	fogus	np
08:24	psykotic	defn: i would use grep and if you find yourself burdened by success (4-5 users searching simultaneously, sustained? that's success), try something fancier
08:24	defn	noidi: incidental complexity! :)
08:24	defn	5 minutes you say? spends 12 hours tinkering
08:24	noidi	true :)
08:25	defn	nono i dont know anything about it -- im just skeptical when it comes to 5 minutes, 24 hours, etc.
08:25	fogus	defn: Is there any reason that chouser's Google search on the IRC logs is not sufficient?
08:25	defn	noidi: that does look quite cool actually
08:26	psykotic	fogus: have you seen this, by the way? http://conal.net/blog/posts/elegant-memoization-with-functional-memo-tries/
08:26	defn	fogus: i want to do it one better
08:26	cemerick	lucene is great, but don't confuse it for a simple, quick solution to anything :-)
08:26	noidi	but the converse is also true: spending a week writing a custom db engine is a great way to save 6 hours learning a new API
08:26	fogus	defn: Fair enough. :)
08:26	defn	i want to parse for example clojure code
08:26	fogus	cemerick: +1
08:26	psykotic	cemerick: simple, quick - grep!
08:27	defn	err I want to parse the irc log data for "example" clojure code
08:27	fogus	psykotic: I have not. Thanks for the link.
08:27	psykotic	i'm reminded of this old yegge post: http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/five-essential-phone-screen-questions
08:27	defn	so when you search for defn, you get a whole bunch of (defn...) blocks
08:27	psykotic	grep for 'grep'
08:28	cemerick	defn: if it's really only 15MB of text, then just stream out regex hits. Seriously.
08:29	defn	cemerick: maybe ive been Doing It Wrong(tm), but running a filter using regex hits has seemed mighty slow for the whole data pie
08:29	defn	but of course im not streaming
08:29	Licenser_	defn: do you precompile the regexp?
08:29	defn	itd be nice to tag lists with search terms that "work", as they work
08:29	defn	Licenser_: no
08:30	Licenser_	that might speed things up
08:30	defn	im not even sure what that means TBPH
08:30	SynrG	http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg10884.html
08:30	SynrG	apparently there are people using solr
08:31	defn	Solr is the popular, blazing fast open source enterprise search platform from the Apache Lucene project.
08:31	defn	+2 for Lucene
08:31	defn	psykotic: great post by yegge btw
08:31	psykotic	yeah, if you have five hours to slog through the verbiage :)
08:31	noidi	too bad he stopped blogging
08:32	cemerick	defn: I just created a 15MB string of spaces, with "duck-streams" in the middle, and (re-find #"duck-streams" mystring) returns in 2ms shrug
08:32	noidi	my theory is that his posts grew longer and longer until one day a post imploded killing him
08:32	defn	cemerick: maybe i should post my nasty code and see what you all think :)
08:33	cemerick	sure, but don't bother with lisppaste8, which is borked
08:34	chouser	if you use a regex literal in Clojure, it's precompiled.
08:35	Licenser_	defn: please :D
08:35	defn	cemerick: err what i was saying was that I have something like this: (("hello cemerick" "oh hello george" "nice to see you" "does anyone know of?" "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?") ("good morning" "good morning!" "LauJensen: check out this code http://www...."))
08:35	defn	so it's not like " " * 15MB
08:35	cemerick	defn: yeah, but that doesn't really matter perf-wise. regexes (as long as they're not pathological) run in linear time.
08:36	cemerick	er, approximately linear time :-)
08:36	psykotic	back references are the only thing that require more than linear time
08:36	defn	hmph -- i dont know anything apparently! :)
08:36	Licenser_	cemerick: if you have things like *? it can get very slow
08:36	chouser	several common patterns can trigger backtracking
08:36	psykotic	Licenser: "it"? java's regex library?
08:36	cemerick	Licenser_, psykotic: for his use case, both of those are pathological; you wouldn't let external users submit arbitrary regexes
08:37	cemerick	I can't remember ever using *?, though :-)
08:37	psykotic	cemerick: yes, i was mere expanding on your comment re: linear time
08:37	cemerick	sure, just clarifying :-)
08:37	Licenser_	what kind of regexps are you using exactly?
08:37	psykotic	*? is quite common
08:37	psykotic	for example .*?<some suffix>
08:38	defn	Licenser_: #".zipmap."
08:38	psykotic	defn: don't do that...
08:38	Licenser_	defn: try #"zipmap" if that is faster
08:38	psykotic	that will match the ENTIRE file
08:38	psykotic	(or the entire line if not in multiline mode i guess)
08:39	psykotic	any good regexp library will pull out a constant prefix and do boyer-moore string searches to find potential candidates
08:43	Licenser_	so precompiling the regexp does not seem tow work
08:44	chouser	in what way does it fail?
08:45	defn	http://gist.github.com/333921
08:45	defn	feel free to tear me apart. Something is not right in the kingdom
08:45	Licenser_	chouser: as in speed
08:45	Licenser_	we don
08:45	Licenser_	't tear you apart, we just eat your arms
08:46	chouser	,(or nil? "")
08:46	clojurebot	#<core$nil_QMARK___4328 clojure.core$nil_QMARK___4328@1551d55>
08:46	chouser	,(boolean (or nil? ""))
08:46	clojurebot	true
08:46	Licenser_	flatten is in c.c.seq-utils :)
08:46	defn	i..did not know that!
08:46	defn	:)
08:46	chouser	looks like parse-irc-log will always return an empty sequence
08:46	Licenser_	I ran into that myself :)
08:47	Licenser_	chouser: don't you test if the nil? function exists there
08:47	defn	it did remove my ""'s, i threw the nil? in there for god know's why
08:47	chouser	yeah, but ... it does exist. I don't think that's what's intended.
08:47	defn	i want to remove nils and ""s
08:48	chouser	try (remove empty? ...) instead
08:48	defn	beautiful
08:48	Licenser_	:)
08:50	Licenser_	defn: try <.*?>
08:50	Licenser_	that might make it faster
08:50	defn	as in #"<.*?>"?
08:50	Licenser_	#".<.?>\s"
08:50	Licenser_	or even #".?<.?>\s"
08:51	chouser	or #"[^<]<[^>]>\s"
08:51	defn	wow okay, this is much better -- now if my print-length wasnt so tiny i could tell if i hit anything other than nil :)
08:53	defn	what's the harm in irc-parser> (remove nil? (map #(re-find #"zipmap" (str %)) parsed))
08:53	defn	that seems to bring things to a stand-still
08:54	chouser	might just be working hard.
08:54	defn	4 cores and 8GB of RAM -- if I can't get some results in less than 60sec it's not useful to me either way
08:55	defn	but still...
08:56	Licenser_	if you are looking for a substring there might be a function like pos
08:56	Licenser_	defn: on what kind of system do you work?
08:56	defn	OS-wise?
08:56	Licenser_	and you only use 1 core there ;)
08:56	Licenser_	I was wanting to ask how large is your dataset :P but I failed
08:57	defn	OSX, Linux, Windows with a gun to my head
08:58	defn	oh, it's like 12MB I believe
08:58	Licenser_	hmm taht isn't too much
08:59	defn	no it seems kind of silly im having these problems
08:59	defn	i think there is something more fundamental I'm missing
08:59	Licenser_	is it possible to get a copy of the data? I am kind of curios to experiment :P
09:00	defn	sure, what's your email
09:00	Licenser_	heinz@licenser.net
09:00	Licenser_	also if try (def parsed (pmap flatten (map parse-irc-log (rest dates))))
09:01	defn	the main issue seems to occur on: (map #(re-find #"zipmap" (str %)) parsed)
09:01	fogus	defn: Me too if you please: http://fogus.me/images/addy.png
09:01	Licenser_	of cause since untill then no code is ever run
09:01	Licenser_	the maps are all lazy as hell and don't do a thing untill you actually access some
09:03	defn	Licenser_: yeah excellent point
09:03	Licenser_	so try to replace one of the maps with an pmap, as further out the better
09:03	Licenser_	then you might get a good performance boost from your 4 cores
09:03	defn	,(doc pmap)
09:03	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f coll & colls]); Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates the coordination overhead."
09:04	defn	ooohh!
09:04	Licenser_	pmap runs map just in paralell
09:05	Licenser_	clojurebot: can you tell where code is?
09:05	clojurebot	code-review is <rhickey> yikes
09:06	Licenser_	no not exactly
09:06	defn	"You've got mail!"
09:06	defn	@fogus, Licenser_
09:06	Licenser_	I hope you compressed it ;)
09:06	defn	tar.bz2
09:06	defn	:)
09:06	Licenser_	good good
09:07	defn	hopefully you get it -- im sending this via gmail which IIRC has a 10mb limit, but for some reason i remember they increased that
09:07	defn	due to...you know...microsoft word documents which are 20mb
09:07	defn	:)
09:08	Licenser_	did the pmap bring an improvement?
09:08	defn	I actually don't even get an error
09:08	defn	it just stops eval'ing and gives me an ;evalkuation aborted
09:09	Licenser_	oi
09:10	defn	which is russian i think maybe
09:10	defn	;)
09:11	Licenser_	I'll try it out once I get something
09:12	defn	my client is still churning
09:12	defn	should send any second hopefully
09:14	defn	okay i think it send
09:14	defn	sent*
09:16	defn	please let me know if you received it
09:16	defn	if not i can put it on my website
09:16	defn	annnddd.... you didn't! file is too big for your mail provider. :)
09:17	chouser	oh, I'm sorry guys -- I haven't been paying attention
09:17	chouser	defn: the url I sent you originally should still work.
09:18	defn	http://devinwalters.com/clojure-logs.tar.bz2
09:19	defn	chouser: i lost it somewhere over the last couple of days
09:21	defn	Licenser_: fogus: http://devinwalters.com/clojure-logs.tar.bz2
09:22	Licenser_	defn: :) thanks
09:22	defn	Licenser_: thank chouser. he's the magic man.
09:22	Licenser_	:D chouser you're incredible
09:39	defn	Anyway...
09:39	Licenser_	defn: what I mean is I don't understand what your code wants to know
09:40	esj	defn: I know what you mean. Sadly I suck ever more at music.
09:45	defn	my code wants to know the strings which contain mention of zipmap, across all of the lists of strings in the list
09:45	Licenser_	ah :)
09:45	defn	should i chunk this?
09:45	defn	you might be being too modest. id venture to guess you're better than me by a long intuitive shot at one or the other
09:45	defn	you're either a natural born killer, or a hopeless romantic
09:45	Licenser_	defn: already the parsing stuff seems to take loong
09:45	defn	Licenser_: yeah, maybe it's the structure? would a vector or a set help?
09:45	defn	would tagging each list of strings with metadata for "this list contains mention of such-and-such clojure.core functions..."
09:45	defn	(:defn :def :interleave ("blah" "foo" "bar"))
09:45	Licenser_	nah I am still trying to figure it out
09:45	defn	that was my shot in the dark -- but "There's got to be a better way!"
09:45	Licenser_	defn: to me it seems that there is something fundamentally wrong
09:45	defn	nod
09:47	defn	could it be the (rest (re-split... ?
09:48	Licenser_	I am experimenting with chaning the read mode of files
09:50	defn	flatten practically triples the time to (parse-irc-log (nth dates 3))
09:50	Licenser_	I try this: (time (count (flatten parsed)))
09:51	Licenser_	flatten forces everything to evaluate, which in itself isn't bsad
09:51	Licenser_	bad
09:51	defn	yeah flatten is the problem here
09:51	defn	i go from .280ms to 1.0msecs the first time i use flatten
09:52	defn	for (parse-irc-log (nth dates 4))
09:52	defn	and that's a small log in comparison
09:54	defn	,(tree-seq seq? seq '((1 2 (3)) (4)))
09:54	clojurebot	(((1 2 (3)) (4)) (1 2 (3)) 1 2 (3) 3 (4) 4)
09:54	Licenser_	ouch user=> (time (count (flatten parsed)))
09:54	Licenser_	"Elapsed time: 307842.237 msecs"
09:57	defn	irc-parser> (time (second parsed))
09:57	defn	"Elapsed time: 0.108 msecs"
10:01	defn	so the structure actually looks like (((:1) (:2) (:3)) ((:4) (:5) (:6)))
10:01	Licenser_	user=> (time (count (flatten parsed)))
10:01	Licenser_	"Elapsed time: 28326.8943 msecs"
10:02	defn	i wonder if this could be done with reduce, concat, or something like that
10:04	defn	peek/pop?
10:05	Licenser_	brb
10:23	esj	Consider multimethods where you dispatch using isa? on a class hierarchy. If your specific instance is deep in the hierarchy, is there a way to invoke the dispatch methods for its parents, in the way of say "super" in ruby ?
10:23	esj	there must be, but I'm having trouble figure out how :(
10:25	esj	so in the case of (eat my-creature) where type of my-creature is animal->fish->goldfish, i'd like to invoke animal.eat, fish.eat, goldfish.eat in that order (please excuse my OOPish notation)
10:27	dnolen	esj: you can get the method for a particular dispatch value
10:27	dnolen	,(doc get-method)
10:27	clojurebot	"([multifn dispatch-val]); Given a multimethod and a dispatch value, returns the dispatch fn that would apply to that value, or nil if none apply and no default"
10:28	esj	aaah, then I construct it manually.
10:28	dnolen	yeah, you'll have to implement something like super yourself, not difficult.
10:28	esj	ok, I get it, thanks dnolen.
10:29	dnolen	super also doesn't always make sense since you can have multiple parents
10:29	esj	yeah, I'lll have to be a bit careful
10:35	defn	you could maybe (let [parent-a (fn inner-fn) parent-b (fn inner-fn-two)] ...)
10:35	defn	so you scope your parents
10:35	defn	(does that make sense? i dont usually know what im talking about)
10:36	Licenser_	defn: look at this
10:36	Licenser_	http://gist.github.com/334024
10:37	defn	haha! that's cool
10:37	Licenser_	it still is waaaay too slow for big data so :()
10:38	defn	we'll find a way
10:38	defn	my structure is wrong -- i think that re-split sets me up for failure
10:38	Licenser_	but I'm below one minute :)
10:38	Licenser_	(time (count (find-lines "zipmap")))
10:38	Licenser_	"Elapsed time: 45084.3956 msecs"
10:38	defn	not bad!
10:38	defn	see im actually find with this
10:38	defn	because id like to build metadata for each log
10:38	Licenser_	I wonder if pmap does a big improvement here :)
10:39	Licenser_	no not exactlyu
10:40	ordnungswidrig	I'd guess the execution is more io bound than cpu bound, right?
10:40	Licenser_	ah problem is lazyness kilsl pmap
10:40	dnolen	defn: or if you just dumped your data into CouchDB and used CouchDB-Lucene you could probably get all matches in like 400ms ;)
10:40	Licenser_	dnolen: pssst!
10:40	Licenser_	it's about making it good!
10:40	Licenser_	(time (count (find-lines "zipmap")))
10:40	Licenser_	"Elapsed time: 20181.8055 msecs"
10:40	Licenser_	:D 20s
10:40	defn	:)
10:40	Licenser_	second run aka java warmup
10:41	defn	Licenser_: I respect you, sir.
10:41	Licenser_	and likely IO cache of the OS
10:41	defn	Why does laziness kill pmap?
10:41	Licenser_	I think to think that the pmap is killed since I got only one CPU used
10:41	Licenser_	defn: this is on a 1.6 GHz system, you'll likely get < 10
10:43	Licenser_	http://gist.github.com/334024 <- the updated code
10:43	remleduff	Has anyone had leiningen crash for them on Windows if they don't delete -Xbootclasspath/a:"%CLOJURE_JAR%" from the bat file?
10:43	remleduff	It works fine on my other Windows box, but not this one
10:44	defn	Licenser_: Hm, I'm not able to get it to work here
10:44	Licenser_	oi?
10:45	Licenser_	likely the file path of dates is different for you?
10:45	Licenser_	I had to change that
10:45	defn	yeah i edited that
10:45	Licenser_	okay
10:45	defn	but im restarting the repl one sec
10:49	defn	Unable to resolve symbol: reader in this context
10:50	defn	oh duh, nvm
10:50	dnolen	Licenser_: nice your code take < 5s on my machine.
10:50	Licenser_	:D
10:50	Licenser_	huzza!
10:51	Licenser_	thanks dnolen
10:56	defn	lol gahhh
10:56	defn	.#irc-parser.clj
10:56	defn	it keeps trying to find that tmp file i have open lol
10:57	chouser	you guys do know I have code that parses those files, right? it's on github.
10:57	chouser	you guys do know I have code that parses those files, right? it's on github.
10:57	chouser	it doesn't do search or indexing, but my have some useful regex snippets
10:57	Licenser_	chouser: that doesn't matter it's about the sport!
10:58	Licenser_	at least for me it is
10:58	chouser	heh, ok good enough.
10:58	chouser	I mean, I understand, just didn't want anyone to be unaware of a resource that might be useful.
10:58	LauJensen	chouser: Is that what you call an oxymoron? "useful regex"
10:58	defn	chouser: actually i didnt know that, but either way it's fun to do a little snipe hunting
10:58	chouser	well, I parse those raw text logs to generate the .html
11:00	chouser	http://github.com/Chouser/clojure-irc-log/blob/master/irc-log-to-html.clj
11:00	chouser	ugh. I really need to convert that to use enlive or something.
11:04	Licenser_	I am really scared that a short ruby snipped I wrote for the same code A) finds 10 lines more and B) takes 50% of the time
11:07	Licenser_	and neither ruby nor clojure outputs the same as grep :P
11:07	Licenser_	which of cause only takes 0.5 seconds to run
11:07	Licenser_	so something is very wrong here
11:08	Licenser_	I mean 100 times slower then grep is bad <tm>
11:10	Licenser_	this is horrible
11:14	Licenser_	anyone any idea how that comes?
11:15	Licenser_	i mean it is scarry, I'm doing something wrong
11:16	chouser	same performance considerations as always. Just read chapter 10 of Joy of Clojure ... once fogus has written it of course.
11:17	fogus	Man I will love that chapter
11:17	chouser	warn-on-reflection, profile the code ...
11:17	chouser	bbl
11:18	stuartsierra	The Apress book will have a whole chapter on performance too.
11:18	Licenser_	I mean I tried to do things good here but it does not help :(
11:18	Licenser_	and no reflections as it seems
11:19	eevar2	Licenser_: and no matter what, you'll never match grep for speed
11:19	Licenser_	(binding [warn-on-reflection true] (time (count (find-lines "zipmap")))) ;=> no warnings
11:19	stuartsierra	It doesn't work that way.
11:19	stuartsierra	Call (set! warn-on-reflection true) at the top of your source file and reload.
11:19	Licenser_	eevar2: I know, I don't want to be as as grep BUT I don't want to be twice as slow as ruby :P
11:19	Licenser_	oh
11:19	fogus	stuartsierra: I'm excited that you're working on the book. Can't wait to read it.
11:20	Licenser_	someone over at clojure.de will; have a german book too :d
11:20	stuartsierra	fogus: Thanks. I wish I could get an updated PDF with my contributions, but Apress has ignored my requests so far.
11:20	Licenser_	geez i'll get poor this year
11:21	fogus	stuartsierra: We're having a similar conundrum
11:22	psykotic	i've only heard bad things about working with apress from the author side.
11:23	fogus	I can't say that our (my) experience has been bad... only that our idea of the ideal release frequency of new material differs from our publisher
11:23	Licenser_	wow some type hints do wonders
11:23	Licenser_	1/4th of the time
11:24	Licenser_	now twice as fast as ruby, that is something that gets in the right direction
11:24	Licenser_	and only 20 times slower then grep
11:24	dnolen	Licenser_: there's a lot of laziness in your solution. But it's beautifully elegant. You can make it blazingly fast but you're probably going to have to move to explicit loop/recur, type-hinting, and Java methods. The question is how much do you care? :) If you can't make it 50X faster I
11:24	dnolen	'd be surprised
11:25	Licenser_	dnolen: it's for the sports ;)
11:26	Licenser_	I want to see what I can do
11:27	dnolen	When Uncle Bob complained about Clojure convex hull taking 25s, I came up with a real nasty piece of unsafe single-threaded optimization that did it ~500ms. Then I got bored with optimizing silly programs. But it is a good learning experience. I'd rather rhickey solve those problems for me tho :D
11:28	psykotic	dnolen: he complained in a blog post? got a link?
11:28	Licenser_	dnolen: I agree, I like the solution I posted, it is as you say, nice and elegant, but I want to see how much effort it takes to make it fast :P
11:29	Licenser_	I'm down to 10s on you rsystem it will be <1 now I think
11:29	Licenser_	with only two type hints
11:29	dnolen	psykotic: checking
11:30	dnolen	psykotic: http://blog.objectmentor.com/articles/2009/08/11/jarvis-march-in-clojure
11:31	dnolen	psykotic: and my type-hinted everything inlined via macros mutable optimization, http://github.com/swannodette/convex-hull/blob/master/convex_hull.clj
11:31	psykotic	thanks
11:32	psykotic	,(< [1 2] [2 2])
11:32	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
11:32	psykotic	that's silly
11:32	psykotic	i just noticed his point-min. it's silly to have to implement lexicographic comparisons on sequences manually.
11:32	psykotic	even python offers that by default.
11:33	Licenser_	http://gist.github.com/334097 < slightly optimized version
11:33	psykotic	hopefully with protocols we can have smarter generic primitives like that without hurting performance on average.
11:34	Licenser_	down to 8s :D
11:35	stuartsierra	psykotic: I think that's a major goal of protocols
11:35	stuartsierra	Won't happen overnight though.
11:35	psykotic	stuartsierra: alas :)
11:35	psykotic	it's one of my few pet peeves with clojure currently. will be glad to see that happen.
11:35	Licenser_	defn: if you want look at the new paste it is a good bit faster now
11:36	dnolen	Licenser_: ~50-60ms for me.
11:36	dnolen	er
11:36	dnolen	oops
11:38	psykotic	dnolen: i just looked at your code. my eyes! the goggles, they do nothing! :)
11:38	dnolen	Licenser_: ~200-250ms for me now.
11:38	dnolen	pyskotic: it's awful and evil yes.
11:39	Licenser_	dnolen: nice :D
11:40	dnolen	psykotic: it made more sense to just call into Java at that point. The java was still 4x-5x faster. And I don't think that algorithm can be made parallel so nothing to gain there.
11:41	psykotic	fwiw, the quickhull algorithm has an obvious opportunity for parallelism
11:41	psykotic	it has a straightforward fork/join structure
11:42	dnolen	pyskotic: Hmm, I couldn't figure it out. You need to create a linked list of all the previous points to figure out the next one. Perhaps misunderstood the algorithm. Do you have a link to parallel version?
11:49	psykotic	dnolen: i meant quickhull, not jarvis march.
11:49	psykotic	anyway i have to run to bed. btw, i'd love to see his code test repeated with -server and escape detection, and a one-minute warm-up.
12:17	caljunior2	braindead java api interop question alert: I'm trying to call a java method with two arguments and no class or instance: crack(message sessionID). This what I do: (.crack message sessionID). I'm doing this within a proxy extending a MessageCracker class and it compiles fine. When I send a message I get an exception: "no matching method found for class".
12:17	caljunior2	anything obvious I'm missing?
12:18	caljunior2	(except for a brain of course) :-)
12:18	dakrone	caljunior2: did you try (.crack this message sessionID) ?
12:18	dakrone	your example is equivalent to message.crack(sessionID)
12:18	caljunior2	no
12:20	caljunior2	dakrone: seems to work. thanks!
12:20	dakrone	caljunior2: no problem, good luck!
12:37	caljunior2	how can I override proxy methods without having to restart an application?
12:40	arohner	caljunior: can you re-def the functions you passed to proxy?
12:40	Chousuke	there are some lower-level functions for editing proxies but I'm not sure how to use them
12:40	Chousuke	search the documentation
12:42	dakrone	,(doc update-proxy)
12:42	clojurebot	"([proxy mappings]); Takes a proxy instance and a map of strings (which must correspond to methods of the proxy superclass/superinterfaces) to fns (which must take arguments matching the corresponding method, plus an additional (explicit) first arg corresponding to this, and updates (via assoc) the proxy's fn map. nil can be passed instead of a fn, in which case the corresponding method will revert to the default behavior.
12:43	arohner	wow that's cool
12:43	caljunior2	drakone: thanks again!
12:47	arohner	I want xpath for clojure maps
12:47	dakrone	arohner: what do you mean by that?
12:48	arohner	I have a tree of clojure maps that I need to transform. I'm getting tired of writing recursive reduces. I'm looking for a better abstraction
12:48	arohner	I think something like xpath, that can also update nodes, would work well
12:49	arohner	I wrote this http://gist.github.com/334206 a few weeks ago
12:49	arohner	so now I'm writing get-in-many, but I just realized the solution should be more general
12:50	dakrone	yea, if you generalized it, could make a nice library
12:50	arohner	dakrone: I should probably release my other libraries before I start another :-)
12:50	dakrone	well, that's true
12:50	arohner	I have an ORM that I'm going to release soon
12:51	dakrone	doesn't mapping objects to things kind of defeat functional data structures?
12:52	arohner	not really
12:52	dakrone	okay, how's it work?
12:52	arohner	think of it as sugar for pulling trees of clojure maps out of a DB
12:52	dakrone	okay, sounds like it could be useful
12:52	arohner	like a 'normal' ORM, except all the rows are clojure maps
12:52	dakrone	SQL or NoSQL DBs?
12:53	arohner	SQL. Right now it's only tested against postgres
12:53	dakrone	how are you storing the maps? serializing them?
12:53	dakrone	JSON?
12:53	arohner	in normal DB columns
12:53	arohner	a row == a clojure map
12:54	dakrone	oh okay, you're not storing them in trees then?
12:54	arohner	no
12:54	Licenser_	I found json very slow, is that an impression only I have or is that a known fact
12:54	Licenser_	?
12:54	arohner	but there's good association support, and you can pull trees out, by loading associations
12:54	arohner	(foo/find-one :where {:id 10} :load [:bar {:baz :qux}}])
12:54	dakrone	oh okay
12:55	dakrone	Licenser_: in my experiences, JSON can be pretty fast
12:55	arohner	you define tables, and define associations between tables
12:56	noidi	is there a function like update-in, but that takes many key/fn pairs?
12:56	arohner	so that load says 'return a :foo, and load the :bar association. load the :baz association on foo, and load :qux on baz'
12:56	Licenser_	hmm I found writing it horribly slow as in slow to cry
12:56	noidi	like (update-in [:foo] update-foo [:bar :baz] update-baz)
12:56	noidi	oops
12:56	dakrone	Licenser_: maybe it's the particular json library you were using?
12:56	noidi	(update-in my-map [:foo] update-foo [:bar :baz] update-baz)
12:56	Licenser_	dakrone: the default clojure one
12:58	dakrone	Licenser_: http://gist.github.com/316675
12:58	dakrone	Licenser_: looks like you might want to check out clj-json
12:58	hiredman	noidi: you can use -> for that
12:59	Licenser_	dakrone: thanks for the advice
12:59	hiredman	,(-> {:a 1 :b 2} (update-in [:a] inc) (update-in [:b] dec))
12:59	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 1}
13:00	noidi	hiredman, that's what I'm using now
13:00	noidi	but thanks
13:03	noidi	I'll guess I'll have to write update-in* (for lack of a better name) to get rid of repeating (update-in)
13:03	Licenser_	so got to got for a bit dakrone I'll try that out thanks
13:04	dakrone	no problem, good luck
13:06	hiredman	,(reduce (fn [m [p f]] (update-in m p f)) {:a 1 :b 2} {[:a] inc [:b] dec})
13:06	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 1}
13:07	noidi	hiredman, heh, that's almost identical to my version :)
13:08	crowb4r	I love irssi and screen. :)
13:08	crowb4r	me == to crowbar7
13:24	dakrone	<3 leiningen
13:24	dakrone	installed lein, did a lein new, symlinked the classes and libs from a giant enterprise java app, lein repl and hurray debugging REPL
13:31	polypus	~ping
13:31	clojurebot	PONG!
13:32	polypus	what's the best deftype/defptrotocol doc around right now?
13:32	polypus	*proto
13:32	psykotic	i don't think you have much to pick from :)
13:32	psykotic	the assembla one is outdated in some ways
13:32	psykotic	i'd suggest looking at the source code, which isn't much to go through
13:32	polypus	k, ty
13:45	psykotic	rhickey: i noticed that deftype fields with non-primitive type hints generate Object-typed fields rather than the specified types. is that intended behavior?
13:49	Chousuke	argghfjkj
13:50	Chousuke	I posted a reply to the monad question and of COURSE my post gets lost somehow
13:51	psykotic	speaking of which, i can't remember if i posted my monad code, which uses an alternative implementation method (no symbol macros, for one)
13:51	Chousuke	I wrote one that uses protocols :D
13:52	psykotic	http://gist.github.com/331761
13:52	Chousuke	http://gist.github.com/312281
13:53	Chousuke	rather hacky, but it seems to work
13:54	psykotic	isn't the dynamic binding dangerous if you combine it with lazy sequences?
13:54	psykotic	i decided to use explicit dictionary passing (but hidden away)
13:54	Chousuke	it is, yes.
13:54	Chousuke	but it was fun to write
13:54	psykotic	:)
13:54	psykotic	the best reason!
13:55	Chousuke	I still don't know how I managed to write that lift function
13:55	Chousuke	I think it works on functions of arbitrary arity.
13:57	psykotic	yeah, i can't see why that would be difficult? you just create a var-args wrapper that reduces with 'bind' over the monadic arguments.
13:58	psykotic	btw, something that felt out of the way i implemented my >> is that the identity monad is actually useful :)
13:58	psykotic	*fell out
13:59	psykotic	(run-identity (>>= 42 (- % 2) (* % %)))
13:59	psykotic	of course, you could easily implement that as a separate macro a la ->/->> that won't require an explicit run-identity
14:05	S11001001	Is there a way to make clojure.core/compile not compile files required in the file whose compilation was directly requested?
14:08	cemerick	S11001001: unfortunately not at the moment
14:10	chouser	(binding [compile-files nil] (require '...)) doesn't work?
14:10	hiredman	binding is runtime
14:12	cemerick	It's definitely worth an enhancement to the compiler to support both modes -- recursive compilation and only those ns' explicitly named.
14:13	chouser	it works
14:13	cemerick	psykotic: as Chousuke said, yes it is. http://muckandbrass.com/web/x/m4BJ
14:14	chouser	if your only (require 'foo.bar) is wrapped in binding compile-files to nil, then foo.bar will not be compiled.
14:14	cemerick	chouser: oh, right, if the binding is a top level, then compile-time is runtime.
14:15	chouser	something like that. :-)
14:15	cemerick	'course, it's sad to have to put binding around every ns decl that you might AOT compile.
14:15	chouser	compile-time vs. run-time is really for each top-level form individually.
14:17	chouser	read-time too, I believe. a top-level form is read, analyzed, byte-code emitted, (saved to a .class file if comiple-files), loaded, called, and then the process repeats with the next top-level form.
14:18	chouser	cemerick: right -- it'd be interesting to have it as a flag or something.
14:26	LauJensen	cemerick: Your site has been down recently hasn't it ?
14:26	cemerick	LauJensen: what, the blog? Not that I know of...
14:26	LauJensen	cemerick: I've been getting a database error of some sort when accessing it earlier today
14:27	cemerick	hrm, that's no good
14:27	LauJensen	Something about concurrent connections and a support link
14:27	cemerick	nothing showing on the monitoring :-/
14:27	LauJensen	Oh its fixed now I see
14:35	S11001001	chouser: that's how compile is currently implemented (1.1.0), essentially
14:35	S11001001	oh, that's not what you were saying
14:36	chouser	S11001001: you see how to solve your immediate problem?
14:36	chouser	not pretty I admit, but seems to work.
14:38	cemerick	it shouldn't actually be a problem, just a matter of bloating one's jar/distribution
14:38	S11001001	I would rather just keep compiling the extras until something better comes along
14:44	chouser	or pinning a jar to particular compile-time behavior you don't want
14:44	chouser	buy yeah, if it's just a matter of .jar bloat, probably not worth the effort.
14:47	Licenser	aloa
14:47	S11001001	I'm putting together trees of dependencies in Leiningen, and :excludes doesn't really do what you want if the jar includes classes of the thing you're trying to exclude :)
14:48	S11001001	or the version clash resolution (shallowest wins) for that matter
15:00	duncanm	hmm, when i use slime on mac os x (gnu emacs), i don't see a slime-repl buffer
15:00	duncanm	i just get the inferior-lisp buffer
15:02	drewr	your swank process isn't getting synced up properly
15:02	drewr	do you see an exception in inferior-lisp?
15:10	LauJensen	I blogged, help make this better: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2010/03/clojure-ides-the-grand-tour-getting-started/
15:16	technomancy	LauJensen: looks good; seems to be pretty fair
15:17	technomancy	I wish you didn't have to paste that big blob of elisp to install package.el, but until it's merged to Emacs trunk it's a necessary evil.
15:17	technomancy	on the bright side I think it's going to be merged soon
15:17	LauJensen	Really? :)
15:17	LauJensen	I'll believe it when I see it
15:18	technomancy	I have it on good authority (Stefan) that only one feature is blocking its inclusion.
15:18	LauJensen	Great
15:18	LauJensen	Would also be nice to see the amount of well maintained packages grow
15:18	technomancy	yeah
15:19	technomancy	LauJensen: also: under the Emacs section what about making "git" link to this page? http://alexvollmer.com/posts/2009/01/18/meet-magit/
15:19	LauJensen	Hmm - Isn't Magit tricky for newcomers? Compared to Egg I mean
15:19	LauJensen	Egg is lacking in features, but those that are, are well documented
15:19	cemerick	LauJensen: are you moderating comments?
15:19	LauJensen	But ok, the docs are great for magit as well
15:19	technomancy	I think they are pretty close, but the screencast is pretty thorough
15:19	Chousuke	egg is pretty much abandoned though :/
15:20	LauJensen	cemerick: Yea I approve all first-time commentators
15:20	cemerick	ah, ok. Glad it didn't drift out of the ether.
15:20	LauJensen	(there's nothing from you though)
15:20	cemerick	ugh
15:20	dakrone	LauJensen: oh hey, thanks for the shout out on your post :)
15:21	LauJensen	dakrone: I shouted? :)
15:21	cemerick	LauJensen: I'm anchored to comment 2193. No good, eh?
15:21	dakrone	Mention? :)
15:21	LauJensen	dakrone: Who are you ?
15:21	fliebel	What is the difference between Eclipse and Intellij?
15:22	LauJensen	cemerick: No, I dont know whats going on - once you succesfully comment I think you actually see the comment, but with a flag that its awaiting moderation
15:22	dakrone	LauJensen: I write the writequit.org stuff
15:22	cemerick	bummer. I'll rewrite, I guess.
15:22	LauJensen	dakrone: Ahhh, then I'm the one thanking you, great blogpost you did
15:22	LauJensen	cemerick: Put it in the clipboard, if its a system error I'll deal with it immediately
15:22	LauJensen	(just so it doesnt get lost again)
15:23	technomancy	that's prompt service for you! =)
15:23	dakrone	LauJensen: thanks! Yours was the one that inspired it, so I should be thanking you
15:25	LauJensen	:)
15:26	cemerick	LauJensen: attempt #2 submitted, FWIW
15:26	cemerick	in the clipboard this time, too :-)
15:26	psykotic	LauJensen: btw, i just saw your post on emacs yesterday. re: color-themes, the one thing vim has on emacs is that the aesthetics of the available themes tends to be much higher. inkpot and so on.
15:27	psykotic	LauJensen: i have a hacked up color-themes-vim.el i did that uses regexp hacks to parse vim themes though, maybe i'll clean it up and gist it tomorrow, if you want it
15:27	LauJensen	cemerick: If you didn't submit as "Arthur" then I think it got lost, and it might be a local problem, since it just worked for someone else
15:28	cemerick	heh, no, I'm not arthur
15:28	LauJensen	And Phil just ranted as well :)
15:28	LauJensen	psykotic: sounds great - and you dont get any argument from Vim, Emacs has many painful color combinations
15:29	mabes	for those of of you with a production clojure (compojure in my case) webapp/service what is your preferred form of deployment/serving?
15:29	mabes	I've been considering glassfish, but more recently I am leaning towards embedded jetty and having nginx reverse proxy to it.
15:34	psykotic	LauJensen: in your disparaging comments about vim yesterday. remember, it isn't just a text editor. in fact, it mainly does music: http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/religion/vi-music :)
15:34	LauJensen	mabes: Haven't tried Glassfish, but I can vouch for the nginx combo
15:35	mabes	LauJensen: cool.. seems like a nice simple solution. How do you handle deploys/restarts? I'm thinking of wrapping the embedded apps in monit..
15:36	LauJensen	Haven't tried that
15:37	LauJensen	psykotic: Man that link was awfully boring, beep mode...
15:43	wooby	LauJensen, sweet post on IDEs!
15:43	LauJensen	Thanks :)
15:44	dnolen	LauJensen: very nice
15:44	wooby	i'd be curious, do the visual ide plugins use that IDE's project format or do any of them do lein integration?
15:45	dnolen	wooby: I saw a recent Lein commit that allows Enclojure to open Lein projects. So hopefully that's just around the corner.
15:45	wooby	dnolen, awesome i'll keep an eye out, thanks
15:46	bobo_	http://gist.github.com/334417 i dont get it. if i uncomment the redirect, the session doesnt get the login and uid values?
15:46	bobo_	but without the redirect, it works
15:47	technomancy	wooby: yeah, stuart H added that last night
15:47	technomancy	just dump the pom with "lein pom" and you can start a new enclojure, etc. project
15:47	dnolen	technomancy: looks like some sweet stuff is in the pipeline for lein, swank-clojure, clojure-mode, et. al.
15:48	technomancy	dnolen: hugod has some awesome swank features coming
15:48	dnolen	ahh how I miss the old days where I had to hack in macro-expansion myself ... not.
15:48	Chousuke	bobo_: my brain keeps telling me it's because session-assoc's return value is not actually stored anywhere, but I suppose it's an evil function that has side-effects.
15:49	technomancy	the new leiningen features won't be interesting unless you've got several projects that you want to be able to hack simultaneously. it's useful for larger projects, but still kind of edge-casey
15:49	bobo_	Chousuke: but if i dont redirect, i can navigate to the page later and the session has the correct values?
15:49	rads	technomancy: how do you make a leiningen task that uses project files from the classpath? write it as a plugin?
15:50	technomancy	rads: were you the one asking about that yesterday? I noticed the classpath wasn't set up to find lein tasks in src like you mentioned
15:50	technomancy	so I fixed it
15:50	rads	yeah, I missed your response though
15:51	technomancy	oh, I didn't fix it until much later, so I didn't mention it on IRC
15:51	bobo_	ah, if i use [] instead of (do ) it works
15:51	technomancy	but yeah, in general a plugin is better unless the task would never useful for other projects.
15:51	cemerick	wooby: all of the major IDEs have excellent maven integration, so you could use clojure-maven-plugin and slip right into that.
15:52	rads	technomancy: in my case it's project specific. good to see that it's fixed now
15:53	Chousuke	bobo_: huh? so you need to return a seq of values? :/
15:53	Chousuke	bobo_: that sounds weird
15:53	Chousuke	bobo_: unless session-assoc is really a true function and the return value protocol is just something funky :)
15:54	bobo_	session-assoc is something in compojure
15:54	Chousuke	yeah
15:54	bobo_	i think it does alter session in a transaction or something similar
15:57	bobo_	hm, it is called by the http get, i guess that needs to recieve it.
15:59	Chousuke	bobo_: ah, no, I don't think it does that
16:00	Chousuke	bobo_: I found documentation that says (about the return values of handler functions) that if the return value is a vector, each value in the vector is used to update the response map
16:01	Chousuke	so session-assoc returns an updated session value, and the redirect yet more updates, and because they are returned in a vector, they get merged to the final response map
16:01	DeusExPikachu	anyone going to the talk in Reston, VA?
16:01	DeusExPikachu	tomorrow
16:02	LauJensen	On a positive note I did a talk yesterday which was announced less than 1 month ago, and about 30 people (only 1 with Clojure experience) showed up to learn about, so that was suprising
16:03	LauJensen	about+it
16:03	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/thomas.html <= new toy, enjoy. (test-coverage report in 25 lines, name is still tentative)
16:04	wthidden	anyone here use clojure to connect to dbus?
16:04	chouser	I have
16:04	chouser	it wasn't pretty
16:04	wthidden	any luck with removing a sig handler?
16:04	wthidden	once it was added?
16:04	chouser	hm ... I don't think I tried that.
16:05	DeusExPikachu	rhickey and Stu Halloway are supposed to be at the talk tomorrow
16:05	cemerick	technomancy: heh, that's great :-)
16:05	hiredman	cemerick: any blog posts for starting a project with the clojure maven plugin?
16:05	wthidden	i've been using the freedktop dbus java implementation.
16:06	wthidden	and most of the stuff works, except I can't remove a sig handler.
16:06	dnolen	technomancy: you generated that from emacs right? how did you do that? (also what color theme is that? very nice)
16:06	cemerick	hiredman: I keep getting that request :-) Maybe this week, depending on how much downtime I get while in NYC.
16:07	cemerick	hiredman: until then, the pom here is pretty straightforward: http://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-example
16:07	cemerick	There's a lot more in the config than is necessary to get started, tho. :-/
16:08	cemerick	bleh, and the groupId and version isn't right for the plugin. A lot has changed since August.
16:08	cemerick	hiredman: so, I guess, nevermind that until I post something.
16:08	hiredman	happens
16:09	hiredman	I guess I should fine a maven blog post too
16:09	Licenser	evening hiredman :)
16:10	cemerick	hiredman: if you really, really want to understand what's going on, the book is the way to go. It's pretty straightforward to pick and choose the material to read as you go along.
16:11	hiredman	Licenser: hello
16:11	Licenser	:)
16:11	chouser	ok, so now ring is installing again. but ... the classpath to use it is going to be atrocious, isn't it.
16:11	cemerick	hiredman: that is, http://www.sonatype.com/products/maven/documentation/book-defguide
16:11	chouser	hm -- maybe I should build an uberjar and use that
16:11	cemerick	oh, and they've split it up now, that's nice
16:11	hiredman	right, this is the one that has the oreilly cover?
16:12	cemerick	hiredman: yeah, but the material has been improved significantly since that publishing. Looks like they're going through lulu now.
16:13	cemerick	it's all free online, in HTML or PDF shrug
16:13	hiredman	mmm pdf
16:14	bobo_	Chousuke: ah, i think i understand then!
16:14	cemerick	hiredman: oh yeah, full-text-searching goodness. :-)
16:15	bobo_	thanks alot
16:28	technomancy	dnolen: that's scpaste: http://p.hagelb.org
16:29	dnolen	technomancy: nice thx
16:29	technomancy	fn-level coverage isn't as interesting as branch-level, but it's a lot less invasive
16:42	defn	technomancy\|away: i like the name "Thomas"
16:42	etate	hmm, i'm beginning to thread state through functions using maps, along functions that apply to those maps in a succession of "processing" functions, is this basically how monads work or am i confused?
16:43	defn	what's the old haskell monad joke?
16:43	defn	"Have you read all of the monad tutorials?"
16:43	defn	something along those lines
16:43	etate	lol
16:43	technomancy	defn: Thomas is from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protomen#Story
16:43	etate	i've just read a clojure monad tutorial, a lil
16:44	defn	technomancy: cool!
16:44	Chousuke	etate: monads can abstract away threading the state, yes.
16:44	technomancy	if I release it as Thomas, maybe the groupId will be thomas-light-phd
16:45	defn	technomancy: For some reason I find "dignified" sounding names make good project names for clojure
16:45	Chousuke	etate: if contrib monads are too much for you, you can write your own monad infrastructure just for those "stateful" functions. it's not difficult
16:45	technomancy	defn: generally I take my project names from literature, but I felt I could make an exception for the Protomen
16:45	defn	like "Terrence", "Thomas", "Frederick"
16:45	etate	Chousuke: but if you abstract away the state from this you just get 'let-monad'
16:46	etate	Chousuke: sure but are they necessary if let is essentially a monad anyway?
16:46	technomancy	I am still waiting to start a project awesome enough for me to name it Thursday: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Was_Thursday
16:46	technomancy	perhaps it's vain of me to ever think I will.
16:47	LauJensen	Whats the fn which shows me where some other fn is defined?
16:47	Chousuke	etate: I'm not following
16:47	etate	LauJensen: M-.
16:47	hiredman	LauJensen: it's in the metadata on vars
16:47	defn	technomancy: technomancy :)
16:47	Chousuke	etate: let is a monad, but it's fixed in clojure. you can't change the monad it operates under
16:47	hiredman	,(meta #'+)
16:47	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 676, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), :inline-arities #{2}, :inline #<core$_PLUS___4516 clojure.core$_PLUS___4516@7acb6f>, :doc "Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0."}
16:47	LauJensen	woa, ERC just wnet nuts
16:48	etate	Chousuke: why would you want to change the monad under let?
16:48	Chousuke	hm, that's somewhat inaccurate
16:48	LauJensen	This was a question for #emacs :)
16:48	ska2342	technomancy: beware, modern times may break your hinted reference: http://thursdaynext.com/
16:48	defn	technomancy: ive always wanted to make a "braille" project, but one piece of the puzzle never works
16:48	Chousuke	etate: hm, I think this line of thinking will lead to a dead end
16:49	technomancy	ska2342: oh snap! I read the first of those books and it was fun, but not nearly as awesome as Chesterton's Thusday
16:49	etate	Chousuke: I'm just trying to work out how monads fit in clojure because its confusing :)
16:49	Chousuke	etate: so let's restart: basically, the way I see monads is that if something is monadic, it has certain composition behaviour
16:49	etate	Chousuke: like threading state & function through a let?
16:50	hiredman	that is almost the deffinition of a monad
16:50	ska2342	techomancy: read the rest, it get weirder and weirder. I enjoyed it. But when I'm done writing my book I may consider reading the one you pointed out :-)
16:50	Chousuke	etate: functions are monadic, and their composition is simple. but operations under the maybe monad are composed differently
16:50	Chousuke	etate: and similarly, operations in the state monad are composed by threading the state through them
16:51	etate	Chousuke: oh i see, so the maybe monad has a different combinator?
16:51	hiredman	functions are monads with comp and identity
16:51	ska2342	technomancy: whoa a new fforde came out and I managed to miss it til today?!
16:51	Chousuke	etate: the big thing with monads is realising that all kinds of composition can be expressed with a few generic functions, and the specific functions determine how operations are composed.
16:52	Chousuke	the specific implementations of those functions, I mean
16:52	etate	i think my mind just imploded
16:53	Chousuke	etate: to bend your mind even further, some operations are composable under different monads, yielding a different composite operation
16:53	hiredman	http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Brian-Beckman-Dont-fear-the-Monads/ this is a very nice video
16:54	etate	man, and there was I calling everything composite in the code
16:56	Chousuke	dnolen: if there are any two operations that you can't compose by simple function composition, monads might help you
16:56	etate	Chousuke: so a function would be a state monad if it took values and yielded a composite operation with a snapshot of immutable state?
16:57	hiredman	the video is good
16:57	hiredman	I haven't explicitly used a monad anywhere
16:58	Licenser	I only have sound here
16:58	hiredman	Licenser: you can download the video in various formats
16:58	Chousuke	etate: a value of a state monad is a function (state -> a). if you call it with a state, you get a plain value back
16:58	hiredman	mp4, wmv
16:58	Licenser	ahhha
16:59	serabe	hi
16:59	Licenser	I really started to love LISPish things
17:00	dnolen	Chousuke: I mean get that, but where is that useful in Clojure?
17:01	Licenser	aha I found it
17:01	etate	i'm starting to think clojure is just a set of monads :D
17:01	Chousuke	dnolen: that's a good question. I wrote a stateless monadic parser for some ascii codes as an exercise a while back. It made the code clearer because there was less boilerplate :)
17:02	hiredman	fnparse uses the monad stuff from contrib under the hood
17:02	Chousuke	dnolen: there's nothing you can't do without monads in clojure, but to say they're useless is just not giving the concept enough credit.
17:03	hiredman	dnolen: I think the main benefit is having clear composition
17:03	dnolen	Chousuke: no no. wasn't saying that. yes monads sound good for parsing. It's just that I don't see their utitlity in an impure functional PL like Clojure.
17:03	serabe	have a problem with proxy method and a JComponent, anybody could help, please?
17:03	dnolen	utility -> general utility
17:04	dnolen	Haskell needs em cause you can't write real damn program w/o them.
17:04	Chousuke	dnolen: for example, suppose you're writing a game that has AI agents that can perform actions. but if they wish to perform two actions in a row, some intermediate code is needed as "plumbing" to combine the actions. It sound monadic to me
17:04	spreadsheet	Hi Chousuke
17:04	hiredman	dnolen: that is a big use in haskell, but really monads are about controling composition
17:05	hiredman	in the case of the IO monad controling the composition of IO operations to perserve order
17:17	defn	i really wish there was some documentation for compojure
17:17	defn	like...actual documentation as opposed to dated blog posts and WIP documentation
17:18	defn	conjure has an absolutely stunning amount of documentation
17:18	defn	but it's not quite what i was looking for
17:19	hiredman	compojure is still changing rapidly
17:19	hiredman	well, relatively rapidly
17:19	defn	nod i suppose that'd be silly to document, only to redo it every few weeks
17:19	defn	still, would be nice
17:20	hiredman	yes, I think your best bet is #compojure + the mailing list
17:20	dnolen	defn: well, it is versioned it would be nice if there was documentation at least for 0.3.2. after 0.4 compojure looks like it will probably settle down since it's attacking a very limited "surface area" now.
17:21	defn	dnolen: good point
17:22	dnolen	defn: the main thing to realize is that compojure hardly does anything. minimal is an understatement.
17:22	dnolen	which is nice.
17:22	chouser	and yet ... compojure is built on ring, and I'm using a subset of ring's features...
17:30	alexyk	I want to keep outputting strings to a text file, is duck streams the thing to use? when do you NOT want to use them?
17:33	dnolen	alexyk: duck streams is definitely one way to do it.
17:33	alexyk	dnolen: btw loved your Enlive tutorial. Am going through it.
17:35	dnolen	alexyk: glad to hear it! I'm just the messenger. props to cgrand mostly.
17:35	alexyk	dnolen: so, is Enlive a stand-alone thing, or does it use Compojure in any way?
17:36	dnolen	alexky: completely stand alone. Christophe Grand wrote it, http://github.com/cgrand/enlive
17:38	alexyk	dnolen: can you create fast static pages in Enlive, or is it always populated from a database or something? How can you run it on a high-traffic site, if at all?
17:39	dnolen	alexky: I've done some unscientific tests and it's seems performant compared to other popularing templating engines. I imagine for heavily trafficked you'll need some kind of caching strategy as usual.
17:39	remleduff	Isn't enlive often or usually used on top of compojure though?
17:41	dnolen	remleduff: you can use it to transform un-namespaced XML as well. I know cgrand is thinking about adding xml namespace support at some point. I used it to manipulate Amazon Web Service results, it was great for that.
17:42	alexyk	so I want to run a simple site with mostly static tables, think puzzles, and results kept in postgres. Can enlive do that? Do I run it stand-alone, in Apache, Tomcat, or what?
17:43	hiredman	enlive doesn't serve html
17:43	dakrone	hmm, if I pass a clojure-vector into a java function that takes a Java Vector, will it be able to coerce it without a problem?
17:43	hiredman	:(
17:43	hiredman	no
17:43	hiredman	java Vectors are old and horrible and not to be used
17:43	dakrone	not my library, I'll have to create one first then
17:43	hiredman	no connection to the clojure vectors
17:44	hiredman	dakrone: I think java's Vector was retrofited with Collections stuff
17:44	dakrone	yea
17:44	hiredman	,(import 'java.util.Vector)
17:44	clojurebot	java.util.Vector
17:44	hiredman	,(Vector. [1 2 3])
17:44	clojurebot	#<Vector [1, 2, 3]>
17:45	dakrone	excellent. that saves me a lot of trouble, thanks hiredman
17:45	alexyk	so my bubble is burst. Is there a PHP-replacement in Clojure serving static or slightly dynamic HTML?
17:45	rfg	Hello all
17:45	hiredman	alexyk: you would have to use enlive together with something like compojure
17:45	dnolen	alexyk: Why not just use compojure? Compojure can serve static pages, you can use Enlive for dynamic pages.
17:46	dnolen	Jetty has good perf from what I've heard.
17:46	hiredman	the other option would be to generate your pages batch style
17:46	hiredman	and just serve using apache
17:46	eevar	hiredman, nginx you mean? :p
17:47	dnolen	or Apache plus proxy to Compojure. A lots of ways to handle this.
17:47	hiredman	eevar: whichever
17:47	alexyk	ok I'm confused. If enlive doesn't serve HTML, who will?
17:48	dnolen	alexyk: your webserver, (Apache, nginx, Compojure, etc.)
17:48	hiredman	compojure isn't actually a webserver
17:48	hiredman	but it comes with jetty
17:48	dnolen	^ what he said.
17:52	seths	xor what he said?
17:52	seths	:-P
17:53	hiredman	↑ nand.
17:53	alexyk	is ring another web framework?
17:53	eevar	there's also conjure or something along those lines
17:54	dnolen	alexyk: Ring is kind of the plumbing for Compojure. Compojure adds a Rails like route syntax and a couple of other things.
17:55	alexyk	ok
17:55	hiredman	ring is like a monad for composing web frameworks
17:56	eevar	http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/SPEC
17:56	alexyk	hiredman: love the monad description
17:57	eevar	hmm.. that link wasn't very descriptive, i guess ;)
17:57	alexyk	eevar: good too! :)
17:57	alexyk	later
18:44	powr-toc	Is there a reason that (apply str nested-lazy-seqs) doesn't realise the whole collection? Instead I just get clojure.lang.LazySeq@1d1f81Aclojure.lang.LazySeq@0
18:45	powr-toc	or rather, how can I idiomatically force the above sequence?
18:46	The-Kenny	powr-toc: Maybe (apply str (flatten coll))
18:47	The-Kenny	,(str (map identity [1 2 3 4]))
18:47	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@e93c3"
18:47	The-Kenny	,(apply str (map identity [1 2 3 4]))
18:47	clojurebot	"1234"
18:47	powr-toc	The-Kenny: yeah, that's actually what I had.. but I'm trying to remove the need to flatten...
18:47	powr-toc	I might just try consing all the seq's into one... rather than nesting them
18:47	The-Kenny	powr-toc: Maybe recursively applying str?
18:51	Licenser	powr-toc: how about using prn?
18:54	Licenser	, (pr-str (map identity [1 2 3 4]))
18:54	clojurebot	"(1 2 3 4)"
19:25	seths	,clojure.contrib.repl-utils/feeling-lucky
19:25	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.repl-utils
19:26	hiredman	the json file clojurebot pulls contrib docstrings and such out of is broken
19:28	powr-toc	How would you describe inferior-lisp/slime-style interactive development... as opposed to just a REPL?
19:28	powr-toc	I mean, what do you guys refer to it as? It feels like it should have a name, as it's such a big productivity win over a plain REPL
19:30	seths	hiredman: feeling-lucky doesn't have a docstring unfortunately
19:31	seths	and I'm just mystified. There is also feeling-lucky-url
19:33	hiredman	seths: did you try grepping the source?
19:34	hiredman	are you just looking for where it comes form?
19:34	hiredman	from
19:34	seths	hiredman: sorry, lost connection
19:34	hiredman	are you just looking for where it comes form?
19:35	seths	hiredman: nah, I was just curious if it was a serious thing, and if so what it was good for.
19:36	hiredman	seths: I believe the javadoc namespace uses it for googling for javadocs
19:36	seths	hiredman: awesome, thanks
20:16	leifw	rfg is self-referential, and so am me?
21:46	psykotic	the default Object.hashCode() hashes on the pointer, right? is there a way to call that version on an object even if the object's class has implemented its own hashCode?
21:46	psykotic	i would like to use this for conservative memoization.
21:48	jah_	too weird ... this evaluates to 2, any ideas why? ----> (.length (String. (into-array Byte/TYPE (map byte [-1, -2, 1]))))
21:49	psykotic	jah: unicode
21:49	hiredman	jah_: .length on strin is a character count not a byte count
21:51	jah_	ah, ok
21:51	psykotic	ah, i found it. System.identityHashCode(x)
21:53	jah_	hmm .. still not sure I understand
21:53	psykotic	jah: what are you trying to do?
21:53	psykotic	do you want to decode an ascii string into a String?
21:54	psykotic	(incidentally, standard ascii only uses the first 7 bits, so values like -1 and -2 would be out of range)
21:54	jah_	byte b[] = new {-1. -2, 1}; System.out.println(new String(b).length()) gives me 3
21:55	jah_	i need to send 0xff 0xfe 0x01 as consecutive bytes to an output stream
21:55	hiredman	actually, it says 3 here
21:55	psykotic	jah: in that case, don't put them in a string first.
21:56	psykotic	jah: write the bytes directly.
21:56	psykotic	a string is not a byte container. like hiredman said, it's a character container.
21:57	psykotic	OutputStream's write() functions are all byte-based
21:58	jah_	trying now ...
22:16	rfg	I like kotarak's parenthesis highlighting: http://kotka.de/blog/2010/03/memoize_done_right.html
22:17	hiredman	rfg: rainbow parens
22:17	rfg	Aye
22:18	hiredman	vimclojure comes with it, and you can find an emacs mode for it
22:18	rfg	I've just setup highlight-parentheses on emacs to do rainbow except that only highlights expressions containing the current cursor position.
22:19	Raynes	With horrible colors to boot.
22:19	Raynes	I wish I knew how to change them, but I'm too lazy to find out.
22:20	rfg	hiredman, do you know of an emacs mode that render all the parens like the vim mode?
22:22	hiredman	rfg: yes, it's called rainbow-pare-mode
22:23	psykotic	there's also a mode that visualizes the block nesting with different hues of background/foreground color, etc
22:23	psykotic	all of these seem to me more flashy than useful or comfortable
22:23	hiredman	I love rainbow parens
22:24	psykotic	really? do you find it genuinely useful?
22:24	hiredman	yes
22:24	hiredman	to be able to visually match up parens
22:25	hiredman	"this is a whole top level form, I can tell because that paren is red and there is the closing red paren there"
22:25	psykotic	indentation does that for me
22:25	Raynes	You indent after every paren?
22:25	hiredman	well sure, but when you start reading other people's code
22:26	psykotic	Raynes: i referred to his example
22:27	JonSmith	i do thatwith paren match highlighting
22:27	hiredman	but rainbow parens works without have to move your cursor over every line
22:27	JonSmith	rainbow is probably prettier though :-)
22:27	psykotic	yeah, paren match is useful when i'm writing code
22:27	psykotic	once it's written, i just go by indentation to identify structure
22:28	psykotic	another aesthetic issue is that with the amount of paren nesting in lisp, it's hard to find enough colors that are both easily distinguished but not repulsive in combination :)
22:29	rfg	psykotic, one could argue that you've gone too deep and you need to separate the code out.
22:29	JonSmith	clearly you need both :-)
22:30	psykotic	6 levels is common in shallow functions
22:30	JonSmith	also need meta-paren
22:30	psykotic	btw, http://www.lemonodor.com/archives/001207.html
22:30	psykotic	i guess you know this post
22:31	rfg	Aye
22:31	JonSmith	nobody using pastel colors gets an A?
22:32	psykotic	haha
22:32	psykotic	NO SOUP FOR YOU!
22:32	psykotic	he complains about the pastels and then he calls michaelw's color theme "techy but cold".
22:33	psykotic	maybe what he wants is disco inferno.
22:38	JonSmith	I really want my clojure code to be 3-d
22:38	rfg	JonSmith, heh I was thinking the same thing, weird.
22:39	psykotic	don't forget the cybergloves
22:39	JonSmith	well its just the next step after 2-d, right?
22:39	JonSmith	we've been stuck in 2-d for the duration of coding for the most part
22:39	JonSmith	50-60 years
22:39	rfg	JonSmith, no we're skipping right to 4D.
22:39	psykotic	i remember all the games following the initial wave of low-end 3d games that were called 4D <whatever>
22:40	psykotic	like 4D boxing
22:40	JonSmith	hahaha
22:40	JonSmith	you can smell the code
22:40	psykotic	i guess time counts if it animates
22:40	psykotic	smellocode
22:40	rfg	Syntax highlighting could be considered 3D.
22:40	psykotic	i bet there's an RFC for olfactory generators you can program against with emacs
22:41	rfg	"I'm a paren off, that one's elderberry when it should be apple"
22:42	psykotic	that would have the same problem of needing to determine too many problems for all the scents to be distinguishable yet pleasant
22:42	psykotic	or maybe that's a way of encouraging ....
22:42	psykotic	good code smells
22:42	rfg	heh
22:42	psykotic	as you go deeper, it starts to smell more rotten
22:42	JonSmith	as it gets more difficult to understand
22:43	psykotic	s/too many problems/too many levels/
22:43	psykotic	yeah, durian kicks in at level 8
22:43	rfg	psykotic, that is actually a great idea.
22:45	psykotic	rfg: i'm off filing patents as we speak. this is the wave of the future for IDEs.
22:45	rfg	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nasal_Ranger.JPG
22:46	JonSmith	oh man
22:46	psykotic	haha
22:46	psykotic	i think he just caught a fart
22:46	JonSmith	oh man, we better start writing code to invalidate your patents with prior art
22:47	JonSmith	the smellternet could be the next thing in computing
22:47	pdk	how do you troll on the smellternet
22:47	psykotic	for too long, friends, have computers been cold and digital
22:47	rfg	pdk, with great ease.
22:48	dnolen	hmm how do you html encode unicode characters in Java?
22:48	mebaran151	does anybody here use lein.bat for Windows: I'm getting an odd error about RestFn class
22:49	hiredman	clojurebot: clojure.lang.RestFn
22:49	clojurebot	ant clean and rebuild contrib
22:49	mebaran151	do lein need contrib?
22:49	psykotic	dnolen: http://commons.apache.org/lang/api-release/org/apache/commons/lang/StringEscapeUtils.html
22:49	hiredman	the RestFn means you have a clojure/contrib mismatch
22:49	psykotic	dnolen: i don't think it's built in (i looked before)
22:50	dnolen	lame
22:50	psykotic	actually, there might be a way but it's probably insane
22:50	mebaran151	ah alright
22:50	hiredman	,(reduce (fn [s [[n h]] (.replaceAll s n h)) "foo>" {">" "<"})
22:50	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
22:50	psykotic	something involving container an xml document placeholder )
22:51	hiredman	,(reduce (fn [s [n h]] (.replaceAll s n h)) "foo>" {">" "<"})
22:51	clojurebot	"foo<"
22:51	mebaran151	oh sweet, I found a different jar from clojurebox, and now everything is working
22:51	mebaran151	I have the most functional windows codigin environment I've seen in a while
22:52	dnolen	I need to encode ´and ˜
22:52	mebaran151	this is the one time I'm glad Emacs is dang monolithic: it actually works decently well in Windows
22:52	dnolen	luckily some wise soul put org.apache.commons.lang on clojars
22:53	rfg	mebaran151, yeah it's pretty solid.
22:53	mebaran151	can I get clojure highlight in the slime repl
22:53	mebaran151	*highlighting
22:53	psykotic	dnolen: btw you can always pull from maven central too.
22:53	psykotic	it's a default source for lein.
22:55	dnolen	yes! man it's so much easier to get things done now than 1 1/2 years :)
22:56	dnolen	5 minute turn around from question, to lib acquisition, to working code.
22:57	psykotic	btw in the java world is there a standard for distributing source code with jars?
22:57	psykotic	(alongside the classes)
23:07	rfg	mebaran151, not sure about that. If you find out let me know.
23:37	psykotic	if anyone's looking for a fun elisp project for a few hours--a command that searches clojars.com and mvnrepository.com, gives a sorted list of candidates, and when a candidate is clicked, it inserts the lein [group/project "1.2.3"] at point
23:37	psykotic	i'll probably end up doing it myself
23:39	rfg	I would, but...you know.
23:41	psykotic	:)
23:42	rfg	5 points for anyone guessing what I'm referencing.