#clojure – 2010-03-12

2010-03-12

00:15	technomancy	slyphon: so am I going to see a docs patch for leiningen coming from you soon? =)
00:16	slyphon	uh, sure!
00:16	technomancy	you just mentioned a few concepts that were missing from the readme that I had just taken for granted
00:17	psykotic	joshua-choi: regarding your earlier question, what you need is a right fold, not a left fold like reduce.
00:17	joshua-choi	Yeah, I know. :)
00:17	technomancy	if you don't have time for a patch it would be great if you could just send something to the mailing list mentioning the things that weren't clear... while it's still fresh in your mind.
00:17	joshua-choi	The problem is with my parser, which is LL
00:17	joshua-choi	I had no problem with digits before decimal points
00:18	slyphon	technomancy: sure, i'll take a whack at it tomorrow or the next day
00:18	joshua-choi	I could just consume all the digits and then run a function on the whole sequence, but I want to minimize memory
00:18	joshua-choi	For demonstration purposes
00:19	technomancy	slyphon: no pressure, just thought it'd be good to get a fresh perspective
00:19	slyphon	sure
00:19	technomancy	easy to miss that when you're heads-down in the code for a while
00:19	psykotic	well, this function you want to compute is provably not computable that way. suppose you see 0.1.... and you want to compute the intermediate result. well, you do 0.1 + 0.1 * (recurse on the ...)
00:19	slyphon	i know how that is
00:20	psykotic	which is not a tail call
00:21	psykotic	here's one trick you can do if you know someone has already spent the memory on reading in the input string
00:21	psykotic	you scan forwards to the end of the decimal sequence and then scan backwards
00:22	psykotic	in that case you are not using extra memory on your own behalf, but you are using the memory already used by the caller in constructing the input string, etc
00:22	psykotic	but if you are reading from a lazy seq, you don't have that luxury
00:22	tomoj	why would you scan backwards?
00:23	psykotic	a right fold over the forward-direction sequence is the same as a left cold over the backward-direction sequence
00:23	psykotic	it's the usual foldl/foldr identity
00:23	psykotic	err, left fold, not cold :)
00:24	tomoj	and somehow that gives you a way to go from [3 5 2 1] to 0.3521?
00:24	psykotic	let me show you with an example
00:26	psykotic	here's the foldr version
00:26	psykotic	(letfn [(foldr [f val coll] (if (seq coll) (f (first coll) (foldr f val (rest coll))) val))] (foldr #(+ %1 (* 0.1 %2)) 0.1 [1 2 3 4]))
00:26	psykotic	,(letfn [(foldr [f val coll] (if (seq coll) (f (first coll) (foldr f val (rest coll))) val))] (foldr #(+ %1 (* 0.1 %2)) 0.1 [1 2 3 4]))
00:26	clojurebot	1.23401
00:27	psykotic	here's the reverse/reduce version:
00:27	psykotic	,(reduce #(+ %2 (* 0.1 %1)) (reverse [1 2 3 4]))
00:27	clojurebot	1.234
00:28	psykotic	sorry, for the earlier i meant
00:28	psykotic	,(letfn [(foldr [f val coll] (if (seq coll) (f (first coll) (foldr f val (rest coll))) val))] (foldr #(+ %1 (* 0.1 %2)) 0 [1 2 3 4]))
00:28	clojurebot	1.234
00:29	psykotic	in any case, they use the same amount of memory in this case--it's just a question of whether it's in a data structure (the reverse) or on the call stack (the foldr)
00:29	psykotic	but the point is that if you already have something like a vector, then you can reverse with no extra storage overhead using rseq
00:29	psykotic	,(reduce #(+ %2 (* 0.1 %1)) (rseq [1 2 3 4]))
00:29	clojurebot	1.234
00:30	tomoj	ok
00:31	tomoj	oh, by "scan forwards to the end of the decimal sequence", did you just mean that you find where it ends?
00:31	psykotic	yes
00:31	tomoj	ah, ok
00:31	psykotic	so then you know the slice, you slice it, then use rseq to reverse it
00:31	tomoj	I had thought you meant you should do both a foldr and a foldl
00:32	psykotic	well, you do foldl for the integral part and foldr (or foldl/rseq) for the fractional part
00:33	tomoj	I see
00:44	psykotic	alternatively...
00:45	psykotic	,(/ (reduce #(+ %2 (* 10 %1)) 0 [1 2 3 4]) 1000.0)
00:45	clojurebot	1.234
00:46	tomoj	but then you have to count the sequence, right?
00:46	psykotic	that's right
00:47	psykotic	,(reduce #(* %2 10) 1 [1 2 3 4])
00:47	clojurebot	40
00:47	psykotic	,(reduce #(* %1 10) 1 [1 2 3 4])
00:47	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--4943$fn
00:47	psykotic	heh
00:48	psykotic	but yeah, you can't escape what i said earlier about computing this function requiring a certain amount of space, either your own or someone else's
00:49	psykotic	in this case, the space is taken up by the integer
00:49	psykotic	for my technique to work in general, you'll need arbitrary-precision integers, like BigInteger, which aren't constant storage, so this technique is deceptive
00:50	psykotic	essentially, i'm just using the integer as a vector of digits
00:50	psykotic	better constant factor on the storage, but asymptotically the same
00:58	psykotic	,(letfn [(parse-fraction [xs] (* 0.1 (/ (reduce #(+ %2 (* 10 %1)) 0 xs) (reduce (fn [x _] (* x 10)) 0.1 xs))))] (parse-fraction [1 2 3 4]))
00:58	clojurebot	0.12340000000000001
01:04	psykotic	incidentally, this is a good example of where folds can be fused using the tupling transform:
01:04	psykotic	,(letfn [(parse-fraction [xs] (let [[m n] (reduce (fn [[a b] x] [(+ x (* a 10)) (* b 10)]) [0 0.1] xs)] (* 0.1 (/ m n))))] (parse-fraction [1 2 3 4]))
01:04	clojurebot	0.12340000000000001
01:06	psykotic	(letfn [(parse-fraction [xs] (let [[m n] (reduce (fn [[a b] x] [(+ x (* a 10)) (* b 10)]) [0 1.0] xs)] (/ m n)))] (parse-fraction [1 2 3 4]))
01:06	psykotic	,(letfn [(parse-fraction [xs] (let [[m n] (reduce (fn [[a b] x] [(+ x (* a 10)) (* b 10)]) [0 1.0] xs)] (/ m n)))] (parse-fraction [1 2 3 4]))
01:06	clojurebot	0.1234
01:14	joshua-choi	Thanks to everyone's help, I've fixed my parser. You all rock.
01:18	psykotic	someone should do a tutorial that shows how easy it is to do undo in applications based on functional programming
01:18	psykotic	that's one of the really compelling use cases, imo
01:19	psykotic	every large application i've worked on has had some half-assed way of doing undo that did deep copies of the relevant parts of the object graph and shit like that
01:19	psykotic	it's super wasteful. persistent data structures makes it lightweight and easy.
01:50	zmila	,,(doc every?)
01:50	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
01:51	tomoj	,,,,(doc every?)
01:51	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
01:51	tomoj	weird
01:51	psykotic	i cry every time i type every? instead of all? :)
01:51	psykotic	two wasted characters, man, TWO!
01:52	psykotic	,(doc some?)
01:52	clojurebot	Pardon?
01:52	psykotic	,(doc any?)
01:52	clojurebot	Excuse me?
01:52	tomoj	,(doc some)
01:52	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
01:52	psykotic	oh right, it isn't necessarily boolean
01:52	tomoj	some returns booleany things
01:52	tomoj	yeah
01:53	tomoj	hmm "booleany" seems better than I thought at first
01:53	tomoj	because it really just returns any kind of thing
01:54	tomoj	isn't pred in that doc a bit misleading?
01:54	tomoj	since it might not be a predicate?
01:54	zmila	psykotic - lol!
01:55	psykotic	btw, a pet peeve about the name 'some' (aside from the fact that 'any' is one character shorter) is that it has the wrong connotations
01:56	psykotic	this goes back to some of aristotle's syllogisms actually. does 'some' imply that more than one member must satisfy the predicate? in human language, that's usually the case
01:57	psykotic	although you could say the same about every? in human language, if something is true for all members, it connotes that the set of members is nonempty, etc
01:59	tomoj	yes
01:59	tomoj	(any even? numbers) vs (some even? numbers)
02:00	tomoj	both of those are awesome, though
02:00	psykotic	btw, i'm not sure why every? isn't symmetric with some by returning the last logical true element, rather than 'true'
02:00	psykotic	that's a weird asymmetry
02:00	tomoj	bah
02:00	tomoj	and you'd call it every ?
02:00	psykotic	i suppose so. or all :)
02:00	tomoj	ah
02:00	tomoj	any/all is cool
02:00	psykotic	my point is that this would restore the symmetry with 'and' and 'or'
02:01	psykotic	right now there's a weird asymmetry
02:01	tomoj	but I don't think the last logical true element is ever useful...
02:01	tomoj	that seems a weird thing to return to me
02:01	psykotic	well, think about 'and'
02:01	tomoj	ooh shit
02:01	psykotic	it's the same thing
02:01	tomoj	yeah
02:01	psykotic	all is just 'and' folded over the sequence
02:01	tomoj	that sounds immensely useful, actually
02:02	tomoj	wait.. I think I was confused
02:02	tomoj	I know getting the first logical true value in a seq would be useful
02:03	psykotic	again, look at 'and'. it's the exact same thing.
02:03	tomoj	all would simultaneously check that all of them were logical true and also give you the last element?
02:03	psykotic	,(and true 42)
02:03	clojurebot	42
02:03	zmila	last logical true = (apply and (map pred coll))
02:03	psykotic	,(and true 42 666 -1)
02:03	clojurebot	-1
02:03	psykotic	zmila: except and is a macro, but yeah
02:03	tomoj	,(and true 42 nil -1)
02:03	clojurebot	nil
02:03	tomoj	I don't often need that
02:03	tomoj	or maybe I do and just don't know it
02:04	psykotic	(and x y) is basically (when x y)
02:05	psykotic	that's pretty useful
02:05	tomoj	ok, so a list of things to do that can short-circuit, maybe?
02:05	psykotic	nah, not short circuit
02:05	psykotic	some doesn't short circuit either
02:05	tomoj	sure it does..
02:05	psykotic	oh right, for lazy seqs
02:06	psykotic	anyway, every? presumably also short circuits
02:06	tomoj	yeah, so you could have a bunch of lazy seqs representing a calculation chain maybe?
02:06	psykotic	,(every? identity [false (println "asdf")])
02:06	clojurebot	asdf
02:06	tomoj	and at any point you can short-circuit and fail, otherwise you get the end result
02:07	psykotic	,(every? identity (lazy-seq (cons false (lazy-seq (cons (println "asdf") nil)))))
02:07	clojurebot	false
02:07	psykotic	right
02:10	psykotic	and in any case, it's the aesthetic asymmetry that i don't like more than anything :)
02:11	tomoj	yes, it is strange
02:11	tomoj	but I figured maybe it's tied to actual use patterns
02:11	psykotic	if and was called and? and returned 'true' when operands were all logical true, i would be equally revolted
02:12	tomoj	as in, rich put it what he actually wanted
02:12	tomoj	but I don't place much confidence in my ability to imagine use cases for functions
02:12	psykotic	my preference would be any and all without any questionmarks and with the semantics i outlined.
02:13	psykotic	1. they are short and symmetric in their names
02:13	psykotic	2. they are symmetric in their semantics
02:13	psykotic	i think the every? and some? names come from scheme
02:13	tomoj	yes, I like it too
02:13	tomoj	but can you describe a simple use case for all ?
02:14	tomoj	perhaps I should adopt the backtick convention and ask about `all`
02:15	psykotic	you want to ensure that all elements have a certain property, and return some feature of the last element
02:16	psykotic	admittedly it's less common than wanting to know the first element satisfying some property
02:16	tomoj	right
02:16	tomoj	what I can't imagine is a typical feature that is also a property
02:16	psykotic	they don't have to be the same
02:16	psykotic	you can do (or (pred x) (feature x))
02:16	tomoj	but with `all` ?
02:17	tomoj	(all identity ...) maybe
02:17	psykotic	,(every? #(when (% < 10) (* % %)) (range 10))
02:17	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
02:17	psykotic	okay, i clearly need to put on my prefix goggles :)
02:18	psykotic	,((every? #(when (< % 10) (* % %)) (range 10))
02:18	clojurebot	EOF while reading
02:18	tomoj	bad luck :(
02:18	psykotic	,(every? #(when (< % 10) (* % %)) (range 10))
02:18	clojurebot	true
02:18	tomoj	ok, so I see how that works
02:18	tomoj	but using when like that in a #() seems strange to me
02:19	tomoj	I can imagine it being useful though
02:21	psykotic	,(letfn [(all [f xs] (reduce #(when-let [x (f %2)] x) nil xs))] (all #(when (< % 10) (* % %)) (range 10)))
02:21	clojurebot	81
02:21	tomoj	huh, you can't apply and
02:21	tomoj	that sucks
02:21	psykotic	it's a macro :)
02:22	tomoj	is that what you have to do to get around that?
02:22	tomoj	you've brought up an interesting area of my ignorance
02:23	tomoj	the fn there, #(when-let [x (f %2)] x)
02:23	tomoj	the body of the fn is a macro
02:23	tomoj	so at macro-time, this is expanded into only function and special forms, before being compiled into bytecode?
02:23	psykotic	it does a when test using the last binding in the [...]
02:23	tomoj	yeah, I can figure out how it works, just fuzzy on the actual runtime behavior
02:24	Chousuke	macros don't exist at runtime
02:24	Chousuke	well, unless you use eval
02:24	tomoj	right, so it's just special forms and fns that get compiled into bytecode for that #() ?
02:24	psykotic	,(letfn [(and* [& xs] (reduce #(and %2 %1) xs))] (apply and* (range 1 10)))
02:24	clojurebot	1
02:25	psykotic	,(letfn [(and* [& xs] (reduce #(and %1 %2) xs))] (apply and* (range 1 10)))
02:25	clojurebot	9
02:25	Chousuke	tomoj: well, yes, because the macro expands to those :)
02:25	tomoj	ok
02:26	tomoj	so the reader reads "some" and resolves that into a function object
02:26	Chousuke	no, the reader makes a symbol
02:26	tomoj	oh, then the evaluation happens after, right
02:27	Chousuke	the compiler resolves it into a var, and at runtime the value of the var is acquired and then called
02:27	tomoj	and syntax like "#{}" reads to a set, or evaluates to a set?
02:27	Chousuke	reads as a set, and evaluates into one
02:27	tomoj	aha
02:27	tomoj	,(eval #{})
02:27	clojurebot	DENIED
02:28	tomoj	er, of course
02:28	Chousuke	it reads as a set of symbols, but evaluates into a set of the values of the symbols
02:28	tomoj	but it's #{}
02:28	psykotic	the fact that it reads into a set can be tested using a macro
02:28	Chousuke	that is, if it had something in it.
02:28	tomoj	wow
02:28	tomoj	I don't think I ever fully grokked homoiconicity before
02:28	tomoj	in clojure's rich landscape at least
02:29	tomoj	no pun intended
02:29	psykotic	for shame, there is no letmacro :)
02:30	Chousuke	in Common lisp, a vector reads as a vector of symbols, but also evaluates into one
02:30	Chousuke	so if you want a vector of values, you need to do `#(,foo ,bar)
02:31	tomoj	seriously?
02:31	Chousuke	Well, as far as I know, yes.
02:32	psykotic	that is correct
02:32	tomoj	never saw that syntax before
02:32	psykotic	it's one of the things i hate about cl
02:33	psykotic	basically, it's intended to be symmetric with '(...) for constructing lists in the reader
02:33	Chousuke	huh. why wouldn't they just have #(foo bar) and '#(foo bar) then :P
02:34	psykotic	since vectors are not used to represent code in common lisp, that was a horrible idea
02:34	psykotic	i agree
02:34	psykotic	anyway, that is the explanation i heard.
02:34	psykotic	i'd love to read something like 'The Design and Evolution of C++' for Common Lisp that documents all the weird design decisions and trade offs for compatibility or coherence with the existing compilers and lisp variants out there at the time
02:35	psykotic	i picked up a few bits and pieces from reading cll over the years
02:35	gregh	You are in a maze of twisty parentheses, all alike.
02:35	gregh	You are eaten by a defun.
02:36	psykotic	nomnomnom
02:58	psykotic	i wonder who would win a longest-names contest--java or objective c programmers?
02:58	psykotic	java programmers are the usual whipping boys but i think objective c would win
02:59	Chousuke	It's not really fair for ObjC because parameters are interleaved
03:00	Chousuke	so while the name is longer, it's also much more readable than a shorter, but still long, name in java :P
03:00	psykotic	i'm referring to things like KeyAndValueArrayIndex for what a good programmer would call 'i'
03:00	psykotic	it makes code unreadable
03:01	Chousuke	I don't think I've ever seen things ike that :P
03:01	Chousuke	like*
03:01	psykotic	i was looking at some of wil shipley's code
03:01	psykotic	he's the guy who wrote delicious library, omniweb, etc
03:02	psykotic	he also admits to using proportional fonts for his code, so maybe i should just write him off as altogether demented :)
03:02	Chousuke	heh :P
03:03	tomoj	psykotic: stringByAddingPercentEscapesUsingEncoding
03:03	tomoj	that's what they call urlencode
03:03	tomoj	I did too
03:03	tomoj	thankfully they brought someone else in to do the iphone stuff :)
03:04	psykotic	when your identifiers are longer than the implementation... :)
03:04	tomoj	it's somewhat suprising to me
03:05	tomoj	that everything apple has made uses that shit
03:05	psykotic	i like names like i, x, y, when they are narrow scope and generic/non-specific. for example, in haskell flip (x,y) = (y,x) is perfect. the x and y have no meaning, they only there to convey structure.
03:05	psykotic	flip (firstValue, secondValue) = (secondValue, firstValue) is much less readable
03:05	tomoj	I dunno, maybe I can imagine finding those long names useful
03:05	tomoj	in an alternate universe where I'm a weirdo
03:05	psykotic	heh
03:05	hiredman	clojurebot: the evolution of lisp?
03:05	clojurebot	Lisp isn't a language, it's a building material.
03:06	psykotic	the case i usually here for something like KeyAndArrayValueIndex, etc, is that if you have deeply nested for loops, then you get confused about the meaning of i and j, etc
03:06	tomoj	like in the tool vs. language user debate
03:06	psykotic	at which point i want to say, don't do that
03:06	tomoj	obj-c is much toolier I guess, so maybe tool people like it
03:06	psykotic	i actually like objc as a language
03:06	psykotic	i'm less a fan of some of the conventions
03:06	tomoj	I hate it but I never did any C
03:07	Chousuke	psykotic: of course, the better solution in most cases is to use a foreach or something :P
03:07	gregh	mathematicians have been using single letter variable names for centuries, it works just fine :)
03:07	psykotic	Chousuke: indeed
03:07	Chousuke	indexes are silly
03:07	tomoj	yes
03:07	tomoj	javascript annoyed me the other day with that
03:07	Chousuke	gregh: not only that, but single letter names with various subscripts!
03:08	hiredman	http://interglacial.com/~sburke/pub/Evolution-of-Lisp.ps.gz is good, but not so detailed about common lisp as to go into why its vectors are the way they are
03:08	psykotic	Chousuke: when you need to mutate, they're useful, especially when you don't have pointers, or if the iterator/cursor isn't a pointer directly
03:08	gregh	Chousuke: and that's arrays :)
03:09	Chousuke	gregh: arrays, or some weird set of different but related values :P
03:09	psykotic	btw a trick i find useful in clojure and haskell is a sort of 'key path' that can be used as both a functional getter and a setter
03:09	psykotic	when used for lookup, it just reduces the keys over the initial input map
03:09	gregh	if only fortran supported subscripts! oh wait, that's in fortress now
03:10	Chousuke	It's often impossible to read maths unless they actually tell you what the variables are first
03:10	gregh	same with programs
03:10	hiredman	psykotic: have you seen update-in and get-in?
03:10	Chousuke	there's a lot of common knowledge of course
03:10	psykotic	hiredman: no? link?
03:10	hiredman	,(doc update-in)
03:10	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
03:10	psykotic	hiredman: doh, yeah that's exactly what i wrote myself
03:11	Chousuke	but if you take a random wikipedia article on abstract math, it's not going to be easy to understand ;/
03:11	tomoj	also assoc-in
03:11	psykotic	it would be nice if this interoperated smoothly with clojure.zip
03:11	psykotic	right now i don't see a way of going from a zipper to a 'key path'
03:12	psykotic	not terribly difficult to code yourself, mind
03:12	tomoj	hmm, I haven't really used zippers much
03:12	tomoj	is there anything already there for using zip paths as getters/setters?
03:13	tomoj	haven't looked at it in a while so I don't really remember how it works
03:13	psykotic	zippers are useful when you want to do several updates in a batch a la these *-in functions
03:13	psykotic	oleg's page has a neat example of using a file system zipper for doing concurrent transactions
03:13	tomoj	sounds awesome
03:14	psykotic	clojure.zip is a 'one-hole context' zipper, oleg's can have an arbitrary number of holes, corresponding to concurrent users
03:14	tomoj	I think I saw a presentation about the file system built on zippers before
03:15	hiredman	,(pl (↕map range $ 3 λx (inc x)))
03:15	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
03:15	hiredman	done with zippers
03:15	psykotic	,(doc pl)
03:15	clojurebot	"([& forms]); replaces a $ b with (a b) walking right to left replaces a · b with (comp a b) left to right ⌽a with (uncurry a) left to right ↕a with (flip a) left to right"
03:15	hiredman	pl is a toy of mine
03:16	tomoj	does it map to something googleable?
03:16	hiredman	no
03:16	hiredman	source is around
03:16	hiredman	clojurebot: transform?
03:16	clojurebot	transform is http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/8a84e6ddbad9d71f714ba16c3e1239633228a7eb/functional.clj
03:16	psykotic	tomoj: yeah, the file system talk is great
03:17	psykotic	when i first read it years ago, it also cemented the connection in my head between zippers and delimited control
03:17	tomoj	hiredman: you just made up the language?
03:17	hiredman	um
03:17	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(pl (↕map range $ 3 λx (inc x))))
03:17	clojurebot	(do ((flip map) (range 3) (fn [x] (inc x))))
03:17	hiredman	I dunno that I would call it a language
03:18	tomoj	well, I mean, your choice of what these funky symbols do under the macro
03:18	tomoj	I figured "pl" was the name of some other language or theory of lambda calculus or something
03:18	hiredman	pointless
03:18	tomoj	ah
03:19	psykotic	lambdabot on #haskell has a @pl command for converting any term to pointless (and unreadable) form
03:20	psykotic	botfight!
03:21	hiredman	clojurebot: so and so likes haskell!
03:21	clojurebot	haskell is Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you don't compute.
03:22	unfo-	lol :D
03:23	tomoj	psykotic: so what do you think should be done about literate clojure?
03:23	psykotic	hiredman: btw, regarding editing things functionally, have you read conal's blog posts on 'semantic editor combinators'?
03:24	tomoj	I saw that, pretty awesome
03:24	psykotic	http://conal.net/blog/posts/semantic-editor-combinators/
03:24	tomoj	I'm barely touching true FP magic, I think
03:24	psykotic	some of them also apply to zippering
03:24	hiredman	psykotic: I have not
03:26	tomoj	psykotic: so are you suggesting we need a better clojure.zip, or clojure.contrib.general-zip or something?
03:26	hiredman	(but I will have soon)
03:26	psykotic	tomoj: well, i only started clojuring a few days ago, i figure i'll write my own stuff if need be
03:26	hiredman	clojure.zip could use more usage
03:27	psykotic	zippers are super nice but a little scary at first
03:27	psykotic	there's a great paper by norman ramsey on using zippers in combination with a few top-level ml-style refs (a la clojure)
03:28	psykotic	it's one of the few papers on real-world non-trivial uses of them
03:28	psykotic	http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/pubs/zipcfg-abstract.html
03:28	psykotic	the refs are basically used for circularity
03:29	psykotic	that's one of the issues with zippers--they only work for acyclic data structures directly, so you need to 'break cycles' with something like references
03:29	psykotic	of course, they need not be mutable references--you can also just use labels that are resolved functionally through a top-level state map of some sort
03:30	hiredman	mmmm
03:34	tomoj	psykotic: it sounds to me like that could have applications in doing neural net calculations functionally, yeah?
03:35	psykotic	dunno, it seems like that is easily done using standard functional techniques?
03:36	psykotic	don't you generally evaluate those layer by layer?
03:39	tomoj	sometimes, yes
03:39	tomoj	but the kinds I am interested in are not easily layered
03:40	psykotic	i guess the standard c approach is queue-based for those?
03:41	psykotic	i.e. you evaluate some, if they trigger, you enqueue the targets, etc
03:41	tomoj	unless there is some way to go from a directed graph to a set of layers, even with cycles?
03:41	tomoj	ah, I see
03:42	tomoj	but don't you still end up with this awful complexity if all your edges are refs?
03:43	psykotic	it doesn't seem so bad. you're just associng once per candidate node
03:44	psykotic	where zippers shine is when you have really deep structures
03:44	psykotic	here you can just use a one-level labels to data map
03:45	psykotic	so, the data for a node would store any internal state, plus a list of (weight, label) pairs for outgoing connections
03:45	tomoj	ah, and then you look up the label in a ref'd map to get the node?
03:45	psykotic	it's not refed
03:46	tomoj	well, you've got an immutable map which contains ref values, then?
03:46	psykotic	no
03:46	psykotic	no refs anywhere. the labels serve the indirection purpose.
03:46	psykotic	you can think of them as functional refs, if you will, and this one-level map as the 'heap'
03:46	tomoj	ok, but where does the activation value go
03:47	tomoj	each node has a ref pointing to its internal state?
03:47	psykotic	{:node1 {:activation :outgoing [[:node2 12] [:node3 666]]} ...}
03:47	psykotic	that's your computation state
03:47	psykotic	err, :activation 42
03:48	tomoj	and you just put the whole thing under one big ref?
03:48	psykotic	there's no ref!
03:48	tomoj	goddammit
03:48	psykotic	hehe
03:48	psykotic	or is the point to do this concurrently?
03:48	tomoj	I feel like descartes
03:48	tomoj	yes, concurrency would be nice
03:49	psykotic	well, let's just do it the obvious functional way first
03:49	psykotic	the point is that you have this map that represents the current state of your neural net
03:49	psykotic	each round you have a list of initial candidate nodes to examine for firing
03:49	tomoj	then an update step is just a function on the map, and you get the next state back?
03:50	psykotic	as you examine those, you update the state map by associng new data under the examined node labels, enqueue the connected nodes for examination, etc, until there are no more candidates, and at the end you got the final state for that round
03:50	psykotic	yes
03:50	psykotic	this is just the standard way of doing graphs functionally
03:51	tomoj	ok, so each update step itself would iterate through a function on a queue of candidates returning another queue?
03:52	psykotic	there would be a step function that takes a node label, the current state map, and returns a list of other nodes to examine, plus the new updated state map
03:52	psykotic	then there is an outer function that repeatedly pulls stuff off the front of a list of candidates, call this step function, conjs the returned list of nodes onto its work list,
03:52	psykotic	rinse and repeat until the work list is empty
03:53	psykotic	something like that. rather than approach this directly, try to wrap your head around how you implement graph algorithms functionally, it's really the same thing
03:53	psykotic	the only difference is that here we have some auxiliary data per node aside from the usual adjacency lists
03:53	tomoj	ok
03:53	tomoj	I will have to review graph algorithms, it's been a while
03:54	psykotic	try something simple like a BFS
03:54	psykotic	with special focus on how you deal with cycles
03:54	tomoj	will do
03:55	tomoj	but, do you think that in the concurrent case, zippers would help?
03:55	psykotic	not really
03:55	psykotic	the structure here is flat, zippers don't shine
03:55	tomoj	just curious, because following up on understanding the simple functional case will take me a while
03:55	psykotic	if you wanted to do this concurrently, you'd make the map go from labels to refs to data
03:56	psykotic	but don't worry about that now
04:06	psykotic	btw, regarding paths and zippers, one very useful thing is a function that takes a list of paths and factors them into common prefixes as much as possible
04:06	psykotic	it's the core function also used in the trie data structure
04:06	psykotic	once you have that, you can very efficiently take a list of paths and associated update functions and run them as a single 'transaction' using a zipper, very efficiently
04:26	Licenser_	morning my lispy friends!
04:34	invis87	Hi all
04:34	invis87	Could you help me ? How can I write a function which print some message different times. Something like this: (defn my-hi [x] (while (not (zero? x)) ((println "hi") (dec x))))
04:35	psykotic	,(letfn [(say-hi [n] (dotimes n (println "hi")))] (say-hi 10)
04:35	clojurebot	EOF while reading
04:35	Chousuke	(dec x) doesn't actually decrease x :)
04:35	Chousuke	but if you don't want to cheat using dotimes, you need to use recursion
04:36	invis87	how :)
04:36	Chousuke	something like (defn hi [x] (when-not (zero? x) (println "hi") (recur (dec x))))
04:37	invis87	So I cant use it like while in java ?
04:37	Chousuke	no.
04:37	invis87	without recursion
04:37	invis87	hmm, thanks
04:37	Chousuke	there is a while in Clojure, but it's for java interop mostly
04:37	Chousuke	most of the time you're dealing with immutable values, so while is completely pointless :)
04:38	Chousuke	because the condition of the while would be immutable too
04:38	Blkt	Chousuke: (dec 2) => 1 in repl
04:38	Chousuke	Blkt: yes, and that doesn't change 2
04:38	Blkt	ah, rebinding
04:38	Blkt	true
04:38	invis87	(def x 5) , => x
04:38	invis87	5
04:38	invis87	(dec x)
04:38	invis87	4
04:39	invis87	but
04:39	invis87	x
04:39	invis87	5
04:39	invis87	:D
04:39	Chousuke	yes.
04:39	Blkt	yy
04:39	Chousuke	that's the point
04:39	Chousuke	it takes a while to wrap your brain around those semantics, but it makes many things a lot easier
04:40	Chousuke	if you program using immutable values, you never need to worry about someone else corrupting your data
04:40	invis87	How I can write function like my-hi without while or like-while ?
04:40	Chousuke	you can pass your data structures wherever you want and just assume that they are not affected by it at all.
04:41	Chousuke	exactly because they are immutable.
04:42	Chousuke	invis87: well, the simplest way would of course be (dotimes [i 10] (println "hi"))
04:42	invis87	hmm
04:42	invis87	))
04:42	Chousuke	or you can use the loop special form, but it's pretty much equivalent to the recursive function approach
04:42	bsteuber	invis87: when you really want to change something, there are vars, refs, atoms and agents - but most of the time you won't
04:42	invis87	but dotimes is macro
04:43	Chousuke	invis87: yes, it expands to a loop
04:43	Chousuke	but loops in clojure are not like loops in java. They're recursive, which means you still can't modify things arbitrarily and need to use recur to "restart" the loop
04:44	invis87	wow
04:44	invis87	So there no loop without recursion ?
04:44	Chousuke	pretty much.
04:44	invis87	it is like O_o
04:44	invis87	for me
04:44	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(dotimes [n 1e50M] (println n)))
04:44	clojurebot	(let* [n__5299__auto__ (clojure.core/int 1E+50M)] (clojure.core/loop [n (clojure.core/int 0)] (clojure.core/when (clojure.core/< n n__5299__auto__) (println n) (recur (clojure.core/unchecked-inc n)))))
04:45	Chousuke	but that's not a problem, since non-recursive loops don't make sense in a functional program anyway
04:45	hiredman	I can't say I care for that cast to int and the unchecked-inc
04:45	Chousuke	hiredman: it's optimised for speed and side-effects I suppose :P
04:45	hiredman	:/
04:46	tomoj	psykotic: that sounds awesome
04:47	Chousuke	invis87: The key to functional programming is that you always need to capture the return value of things :)
04:47	psykotic	Chousuke: you can easily have both. you simply check on entry to the loop if the thing fits in an unboxed integer.
04:48	psykotic	you know the bound ahead of time
04:49	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(dotimes [n m] (println n)))
04:49	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [n__5299__auto__ (clojure.core/int m)] (clojure.core/loop [n (clojure.core/int 0)] (clojure.core/when (clojure.core/< n n__5299__auto__) (println n) (recur (clojure.core/unchecked-inc n)))))
04:50	Chousuke	invis87: Because functions (ideally) have no side-effects, the only way they can communicate with the caller is by their return value. Clojure isn't pure though, so sometimes you write non-functional code where that doesn't apply, but that's another story
04:50	psykotic	when i say ahead of time, i obviously mean on entry to the loop--the termination condition isn't dynamically reevaluated with each iteration
04:50	psykotic	hence, you can just have two code paths
04:50	hiredman	sure
04:50	psykotic	at the very least it should throw an exception for bounds that don't fit in an unboxed integer
04:51	tomoj	like if you tried to pass a long in?
04:51	Chousuke	,Integer/MAX_INT
04:51	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to find static field: MAX_INT in class java.lang.Integer
04:51	Chousuke	hm, what's the field ;/
04:51	tomoj	,Integer/MAX_VALUE
04:51	clojurebot	2147483647
04:51	tomoj	soo...
04:51	psykotic	2 billion isn't that many iterations
04:51	tomoj	wow
04:52	Chousuke	for side-effects I would say it is. :/
04:52	hiredman	,(int 1e100000M)
04:52	clojurebot	0
04:53	Chousuke	hm, that's not very good behaviour
04:53	hiredman	,(int 1e1000M)
04:53	clojurebot	0
04:53	tomoj	,(dotimes [i 1e1000M] (println "hello"))
04:53	clojurebot	nil
04:54	hiredman	…
04:54	Chousuke	I think that ought to be fixed :P
04:55	Chousuke	Could probably just throw an exception on more than MAXINT iterations. If you need more you can always write your own loop
04:55	tomoj	,(int (inc (long Integer/MAX_VALUE)))
04:55	clojurebot	-2147483648
04:55	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to fix it?
04:55	clojurebot	who's job is it to keep hiredman in line? is <reply>That's my job
04:57	psykotic	hiredman: you wrote clojurebot?
04:57	hiredman	I guess
04:57	psykotic	i guess java makes it easy to jail something like a bot
04:57	psykotic	or the jvm rather
04:58	Chousuke	well, clojurebot's sandbox is far from perfect :P
04:58	hiredman	yes
04:58	Chousuke	I guess you can't take over the machine it runs on, but I'm sure there are ways to DoS clojurebot
04:59	gregh	ask him to evaluate the ackermann function for suitable inputs, for example
05:00	tomoj	wouldn't it time out?
05:01	gregh	time out or space out, whichever comes first :)
05:01	psykotic	does the jvm support 'jail compartments' for pieces of running within the same jvm?
05:02	hiredman	,(apply trampoline (repeat 2 (fn a [x] #(x a)) )
05:02	clojurebot	EOF while reading
05:02	psykotic	*pieces of code
05:02	hiredman	,(apply trampoline (repeat 2 (fn a [x] #(x a))))
05:02	psykotic	hiredman: speaking of which, have you considered auto-paren closing :)
05:02	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
05:02	hiredman	psykotic: nope
05:03	gregh	I guess that's a pretty short timeout
05:03	hiredman	if I recall it is ten seconds
05:04	psykotic	btw, one thing i often wish for is a lazy print/println
05:04	psykotic	or at least chunky semilazy
05:04	hiredman	uh, what?
05:04	psykotic	as in, won't coerce to str directly but will doseq as a seq of chars
05:05	psykotic	maybe it's because i'm used to ghci
05:05	psykotic	it's nice to be able to println an infinite sequence and ctrl-c in the middle
05:06	psykotic	it would also mean you could have clojurebot print some prefix of an infinite sequence with ... after a certain point
05:06	gregh	it might be easiest to just write one whenever you need that
05:06	psykotic	and hack slime's repl to use mine, yeah
05:09	psykotic	right now all the print-method implementations print directly using .write
05:10	hiredman	,(doc print-level)
05:10	clojurebot	"; print-level controls how many levels deep the printer will print nested objects. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum level to print. Each argument to print is at level 0; if an argument is a collection, its items are at level 1; and so on. If an object is a collection and is at a level greater than or equal to the value bound to *print-le
05:11	psykotic	that doesn't apply to a flat sequence
05:12	psykotic	anyway, the whole printer infrastructure is 1960s lisp
05:12	hiredman	,(doc print-length)
05:12	clojurebot	"; print-length controls how many items of each collection the printer will print. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum number of items of each collection to print. If a collection contains more items, the printer will print items up to the limit followed by '...' to represent the remaining items. The root binding is nil indicating no limit."
05:12	psykotic	hiredman: useful
05:12	psykotic	it doesn't change the fact that the printer is ugly imperative style
05:14	psykotic	,(binding [print-length 10] (println (repeat 42)))
05:14	clojurebot	(42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 ...)
05:14	psykotic	by ugly imperative style i mean the fact that it doesn't separate the physical printing from the formatting
05:15	psykotic	for the simplest things like length and depth truncation, it's fortunate that top-down dynamic binding lets you do most of what you want
05:16	psykotic	hiredman: i guess you've read 'the design of a pretty printing library' by hughes?
05:16	psykotic	it's 15 years old at this point
05:16	psykotic	GHC has an updated version designed by simon peyton jones
05:19	psykotic	dumb question, for map destructuring patterns, is there a way to bind the unmatched remainder of the map?
05:19	psykotic	something like :rest to go with :as
05:27	triyo	Are there any technical papers available on Clojure implementation?
05:29	tomoj	psykotic: I don't think so
05:30	tomoj	you specifically want to drop the keys you explicitly pick out?
05:30	psykotic	if you think of a vector as a map from integers, then it's the same as & xs in vector binding patterns
05:30	psykotic	so yes
05:31	psykotic	obviously not too hard to call disj myself :)
05:32	tomoj	dissoc?
05:36	psykotic	typo, yes
06:47	powr-toc	Is there a way to use clojure.contrib.repl-ln with swank/slime?
06:52	Fossi	powr-toc: as in? you want a repl in emacs?
06:54	powr-toc	Fossi: No, I already have a swank repl... It's just repl-ln from contrib has better line number support... as the swank repl doesn't seem to display line numbers for snippets evaluated into swank... I was wondering if repl-ln might do the job, but I guess it wont work
06:54	Fossi	hmmm. i'd guess not
06:55	powr-toc	I just wish swank would track the line numbers for evaluated snippets when stack traces are thrown.
06:56	Fossi	never occured to me that would be useful
06:58	powr-toc	Fossi: well, during development I evaluate most of my programs inside Emacs/Swank, so when it blows up with a stacktrace, it'd be nice to know what lines it's referring to
07:12	cemerick	swank doesn't include line numbers when it eval's a file?
07:14	Fossi	can you easily extend a gen-classed class? you have to compile and then you can proxy it, right?
07:14	Fossi	damn, i guess i will need another gen-class though
07:18	Fossi	wow. my hands actually still know the paredit keys. that's cool.
07:19	Maddas	:-)
08:28	LauJensen	Anybody got a link to a solid study on the correlation between size of code-base and maintenance costs?'
08:31	caljunior	http://users.jyu.fi/~koskinen/smcosts.htm
08:31	caljunior	old and rather general but possibly helpful.
08:40	etate	ehh JDK doesn't include the server hotspot vm on 32bit windows??
08:42	cemerick	etate: really? I seem to remember using -server successfully in 32-bit windows.
08:43	etate	cemerick: yeah i just installed the latest JDK, and no -server
08:43	cemerick	huh. Maybe that changed with 1.6?
08:43	cemerick	almost certain I ran -server with 1.5
08:44	etate	cemerick: oh wait, no its there... just not in the right place
08:44	cemerick	oh, you mean the actual .dll
08:45	etate	cemerick: no i mean when i installed it it created 2 JREs, one in the jdk folder and one in program files
08:45	cemerick	oh, right
08:45	etate	cemerick: my system for some reason only knows about the one in program files, which is the wrong one
08:46	etate	cemerick: even though its not in path... i suspect system32 weirdness
08:46	cemerick	etate: well, for you :-) Client vm is far better for 90% of users.
08:46	etate	cemerick: whys that?
08:46	etate	cemerick: oh i see :)
08:46	cemerick	faster startup time and shorter gc pauses
08:46	cemerick	the selection of the java vm is driven by the registry, not the path
08:48	etate	cemerick: man i'm new to windows :( how can i change it in the registry?
08:49	cemerick	etate: regedit.exe, and have fun
08:49	cemerick	try to not break anything, tho :-)
08:49	etate	cemerick: am on windows 7 i think it works a bit different
08:49	cemerick	ah, can't help you there
08:49	cemerick	I think there's a java control panel where you can change it easily, but I'm nowhere near a windows box.
08:50	etate	lucky you
08:50	etate	things were so much easier in linux sigh
08:51	cemerick	I do touch windows for testing and such -- I generally ensure that I never install the consumer jre's, and then you're fine.
08:51	cemerick	if you set JAVA_HOME, that might resolve things for you simply
09:05	cemerick	fogus: a little crazy, huh :-)
09:05	fogus	Crazy yes
09:06	caljunior	LauJensen: http://sunset.usc.edu/csse/TECHRPTS/2008/usc-csse-2008-808/usc-csse-2008-808.pdf
09:06	LauJensen	caljunior: Thanks - I'll go have a look
09:09	etate	cemerick: JAVA_HOME is set to the right JDK :/
09:09	cemerick	etate: it needs to be pointed at the JDK's jre
09:09	cemerick	not the JDK top level
09:09	etate	cemerick: oh i'll try that, i was just reading that apparently theres a java in system32
09:10	cemerick	the 1.1.6 one, perhaps
09:10	cemerick	or a shim that bootstraps based on the registry settings
09:12	caljunior	the site seems to be a goldmine for software development cost modelling: csse.usc.edu/csse/research/COCOMOII/cocomo_papers.htm
09:15	LauJensen	Great!
09:17	sunny36	This is probably a stupid question. What kind of app should I write to learn to learn clojure? I've been doing katas and it's starting to get bored.
09:24	etate	cemerick: wow this really sucks, i can't actually add a jre to the java config panel because it doesn't save my changes
09:24	zmila	sunny36 - try to solve project euler promblems :)
09:25	sunny36	zmila: I've tried a number of those as well. Those are mostly math problems.
09:26	cemerick	etate: to back up a bit: why do you care what jre is used? Any dev tool with its salt will allow you to set JAVA_HOME and be done with it.
09:27	cemerick	used by default*, I mean
09:29	wthidden	how long does a paste.lisp.org take to arrive here?
09:29	cemerick	wthidden: that bot's been dead for a while, I think
09:30	wthidden	<sigh/>
09:30	The-Kenny	wthidden: If it's working, almost instantly
09:30	cemerick	...which hasn't been true for weeks :-\|
09:30	etate	cemerick: i want to be able to do java -server at the cmd line without it breaking
09:31	wthidden	ok... then i'll do it the hardway http://paste.lisp.org/display/96284
09:31	cemerick	etate: OK, but why? Building up command line invocations by hand is generally a bad idea IMO, so surely you're using some tool to do it.
09:31	wthidden	i'm having issues with loading/finding a java static class
09:31	vy	fogus: IIRC, you were mentioning about a small script that parses Clojure source code to extract the API docs. What's the status of it?
09:31	wthidden	I see most of the classes just not the static sub-classes.
09:32	cemerick	otherwise, it's a windows sysadmin issue, and you know what I know in that dept. already :-)
09:32	etate	cemerick: when i load these commands in a bash script it has this issue too
09:32	etate	cemerick: sorry, a .bat script
09:32	rhickey	cemerick: saw your tweet - so, what are the big missing items or pain points for Clojure IDE users? (other than loneliness :)
09:33	etate	cemerick: i've fixed it anyhow by deleting the standard jre
09:33	cemerick	etate: ah, nuclear's always the best option :-D
09:34	cemerick	rhickey: ha
09:34	etate	cemerick: mwahaha :)
09:34	cemerick	rhickey: better put on your chasm-crossing suit
09:34	rhickey	cemerick: fwiw I'm sympathetic to your premise
09:35	ttmrichter	sunny36: Pick something you're interested in day-to-day. Make simple software to help automate it.
09:35	cemerick	rhickey: anyway, this is an entirely social problem. Maybe Eric has something different to say, but I don't think there's anything missing from clojure itself that would make a world-beating IDE out of reach.
09:35	icey	i'm pretty convinced that if someone repackaged emacs and called it "awesomeEd 0.2" or something appropriately web 2.0, that it would get a lot less pushback
09:35	cemerick	Really, I'd say enclojure (and, I hear, the intellij plugin) are getting pretty close in that regard.
09:36	etate	cemerick: enclojure is uber slow on my machine... dual core :/
09:36	etate	cemerick: sorry i mean, netbeans
09:37	etate	cemerick: i think whats missing from enclojure is paredit
09:38	cemerick	rhickey: the biggest issues IMO are (a) initial contact with clojure right now is, more often than not, in conjunction with emacs, which is a huge warning flag for a super-supermajority of developers, (b) IDE options are generally not mentioned by clojure advocates, and (c) there is, shall we say, a certain smugness among emacs users towards even the concept of IDEs that is unproductive.
09:39	cemerick	etate: I'm in NB and enclojure all day, every day. Not sure what to say there.
09:39	etate	rhickey: well lispworks is basically emacs :>
09:39	cemerick	etate: um, wow, no :-)
09:39	etate	cemerick: it has the same keys, buffer concepts
09:40	cemerick	etate: bindings and buffers are both inconsequential
09:40	rhickey	etate: I never used the emacs bindings in LW
09:40	cemerick	NetBeans, Eclipse, and IntelliJ all have emacs bindings and buffers too, so that's clearly not the differentiating factor.
09:41	etate	i think paredit is the most important thing in any Lisp IDE
09:41	cemerick	anyway, the differences among editors is moot for this conversation IMO. I take it as a premise that people like the environments they like -- I just don't want that getting in the way of clojure adoption (or, at least, honest evaluation of it).
09:41	rhickey	cemerick: so, the dev who wants to try Clojure and not emacs at the same time - what are the hurdles IYO?
09:42	cemerick	rhickey: perception of the clojure community as accepting/supportive of only emacs as the development environment.
09:44	zmila	not only, i use Eclipse with CCW - it's buggy, but Eclipse is the IDE we use for other projects (java, html)
09:44	rhickey	cemerick: well you can't expect emacs fans to advocate for netbeans, and the numbers are there right now
09:44	etate	cemerick: i don't know, when i first came to clojure (yesterday), i thought there were more ide options than i expected.
09:44	rhickey	cemerick: maybe people like you need to write more articles about enclojure?
09:45	etate	cemerick: the biggest problem is the alpha tag attached to enclojure, a lot of devs would feel uncomfortable with this - and fwiw i think its less alpha than many beta open source projects
09:45	The-Kenny	Is there an article or a site which lists the ide-choices with screenshots etc.?
09:45	The-Kenny	Maybe a wiki
09:47	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, and I may do that. But then, I might do that once, or whatever. It's very hard to make a dent compared to those that are passionate about their environment (which one sorta has to be if one is to use emacs effectively).
09:48	LauJensen	rhickey: Is there an interest on your part in adopting something other than Emacs ?
09:48	sattvik	I am a long-tim Vim user. I tried out Emacs for some Lisp development, and I agree that it probably provides a better Clojure/Lisp development experience than Vim. However, trying to learn Emacs is a huge hurdle for someone for whom Vim is second-nature. I am fairly happy with VimClojure, though. It's not perfect or as nice as SLIME, but works well enough.
09:48	cemerick	Sometime next month, I'm going to be upgrading across the board, that'll be a good time to do a screencast or something about enclojure...and maybe see how far along the intellij plugin has come.
09:49	cemerick	If the latter is really good, that would be a big breakthrough -- having a commercial vendor behind a plugin like that would help a lot.
09:51	icey	Maybe if there was some very short documentation about the absolute basics in emacs people would be less scared of it
09:52	icey	i.e. "Open a file with C-x C-f", "Save with C-x C-s", "Paste with C-y" etc
09:52	icey	in other words, show them how it can be a regular old text editor first... then later they can figure out the cool parts
09:53	tr8dr	my 2 cents: the problem with emacs as an environment is that there is a lot more investment in IDEs for languages such as java. With clojure one may be in a multi-language environment. The investment in the last 10 yrs or more has been in IDEs
09:53	sattvik	icey: If it's a question of people who aren't used to vim or emacs, the tutorial that comes with emacs isn't bad.
09:54	Chousuke	tr8dr: emacs is actually capable of functioning as an IDE
09:54	cemerick	icey: sorry, educating the masses about emacs is a nonstarter.
09:54	icey	I guess I just don't see why; you're not talking about introducing people to emacs to do HTML
09:54	icey	(or PHP for example)
09:54	tr8dr	I've used emacs for many yrs, but IMO, is the best editor for sure, but poor relatively when it comes to the many facilities available in an IDE
09:55	Chousuke	tr8dr: and I don't just mean because it has tools and you can use them together. there's a library for implementing IDE features like refactoring, managing projects, and what have you. and then they have implementations of IDEs for C, C++ and Java at least :P
09:56	cemerick	icey: because software development is done in one of four environments, and I want the clojure community to grow without boiling the ocean of development environments.
09:56	Chousuke	in a way, emacs is like the JVM
09:56	Chousuke	a platform
09:56	icey	(fwiw I learned emacs specifically for Clojure about 6 months ago; I'm not an emacs pro or anything like that. I think the FUD seriously outweighs the difficulties of picking up the basics)
09:57	fogus	vy: Did I say that?
09:57	tr8dr	I'll admit that I switched over to IDEs 5-6 yrs ago, so the state of the art in emacs may have changed. I used to use IDE-like facilties for C++ and found them lacking
09:57	tr8dr	regardless of merit, most professional developers use IDEs.
09:58	tr8dr	and don;t want to muck around with elisp and other stuff to get a functional env
09:58	cemerick	tr8dr: +1 there
09:58	rhickey	A big argument for IDEs is that if people are already using them for Java, and want to integrate Clojure with their Java projects, asking them to move to emacs is a non-starter, ditto asking them to switch IDEs
09:58	LauJensen	I'm very fond of Emacs and didn't think it overly difficult to pick up - but are there valid reasons for switching to Enclojure et al ?
09:59	LauJensen	(except what Rich just said, in better Java integration)
09:59	Raynes	Not really.
09:59	tr8dr	the ideal for me would be a full emacs editor embedded in eclipse
09:59	cemerick	LauJensen: if you're happy with emacs, probably not. Maybe if you need to do a significant amt of java dev.
09:59	sattvik	tr8dr: That depends on the shop. I've been in many places where IDEs aren't used at all. In some cases where IDEs are used, it's because it is required.
09:59	LauJensen	k
10:00	vy	fogus: IIRC, you will be using it for the book and stuff.
10:00	Chousuke	for clojure work, my ideal would be an editor extensible in lisp, with vi-like editing controls, SLIME-style lisp integration and paredit
10:00	Chousuke	emacs fails at the vi-like editing :P
10:00	Chousuke	but otherwise it's good
10:01	cemerick	rhickey: switching IDEs isn't a big deal for, say, the top quarter of java devs -- who often use multiple IDEs in a week anyway. So, making it clear that there's a solid plugin for one of the three will ensure that they'll give clojure a whirl.
10:01	mattrepl	Chousuke: viper mode?
10:01	cemerick	make it seem like emacs is the only sane choice, and they'll just shrug and fiddle with scala/groovy/jruby/whatever some more
10:01	Chousuke	mattrepl: doesn't play nice with paredit
10:01	fogus	vy: Ah yes. That is still internal to chouser and myself and is pretty rough. It does what we need and only what we need, but after the book is done there might be some general value for others
10:01	Chousuke	mattrepl: and I won't write lisp without paredit :P
10:02	rhickey	cemerick: you seem to be asking for people to behave differently, which can't be a serious option
10:02	mattrepl	rightfully so
10:02	sattvik	Chousuke: Bingo. I want to like Emacs, but I'm hooked editing in vi mode. I use it everywhere: my shell, my browser, my editor, etc.
10:02	cemerick	rhickey: really? where?
10:03	etate	sattvik: viper-mode ?
10:03	Chousuke	sattvik: emacs actually can do vi-like editing very well if that's all you want, but it really causes problems, because many of the other emacs addons are not written with vi-like controls in mind
10:03	mattrepl	etate: see above, incompatible with paredit
10:04	licoresse	in a (proxy [JPanel MouseListener ....] ...) how do I override the constructor?
10:04	etate	mattrepl: can't you just rebind the paredit keys? :)
10:04	Chousuke	etate: you would need to rebind viper keys so that it calls paredit functions
10:04	mattrepl	dunno, not sure how viper-mode works (I'm quite happy using common emacs bindings when in emacs)
10:04	Chousuke	etate: one of the most apparent problems is dd deleting a whole line
10:05	Chousuke	etate: which is not good for lisp code, since it'll break the structure often
10:05	etate	Chousuke: can't you rebind dd so that it kills sexp instead of the actual line, actually ctrl-W also kills the structure
10:05	rhickey	cemerick: that the collective voice of CLojure users is making it seem like emacs is the only viable choice, mostly by not talking about other choices they don't use. Or are people actively saying emacs is the only viable choice?
10:06	etate	rhickey: I don't think its the only viable choice, theres enclojure, vim-clojure, ccw.. its just the best choice. :)
10:07	Chousuke	I think emacs is the most popular, and perhaps most mature, choice.
10:07	Chousuke	bestness depends on your needs, of course
10:07	mattrepl	even when developing mixed JVM-language projects I always go back to using emacs/slime. even if it means launching an app from Eclipse or IDEA with a swank socket open
10:07	Chousuke	:P
10:07	LauJensen	Last time I used Enclojure it certainly left me with the feeling that Emacs was the only viable pick - VimClojure is also quite good, but requires a fondness for Vim which I dont have
10:07	rhickey	cemerick: I know I've mentioned alternative environments for as long as they have existed, and presented from within Enclojure at JavaOne script bowl last year. http://clojure.org/getting_started seems fair
10:08	Chousuke	it might also be that many clojure programmers have lisp background and thus would favour emacs over Java IDEs
10:08	rhickey	cemerick: so, without putting words in your mouth, how do we improve the IDE story?
10:09	sattvik	etate: I tried it, but what I use is more than just movement and simple edit commands. There are other things such as switching between buffers, windows, and using other Vi plugins. I could probably spend a lot of time adapting to Emacs and playing with bindings, but it's not worth it to me. I have found tools that make Lisp/Clojure development in Vim good enough.
10:11	cemerick	rhickey: oh, I wouldn't suggest that emacs fans talk up enclojure or anything, but if one is interested in seeing clojure usage grow, one should not suggest to devs coming from a totally java background (for example) learn emacs as a first step. I've seen this happening, and intervened as well as I could, but I can't be everywhere. :-)
10:12	rhickey	cemerick: so a call to emacs fans to mention all the choices?
10:12	licoresse	looking for a rather complete example of proxy with overrides etc
10:12	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I think what you've put out is great. I guess it all comes down to whether us non-emacs users can generate enough noise to counter the acolytes. ;-)
10:12	licoresse	my problem is that I get no error messages when the fn definitions are wrong
10:13	cemerick	rhickey: well, I suppose people need to decide whether they care about emacs or clojure more
10:13	cemerick	If the latter, one wouldn't reasonably suggest the former in many, many settings.
10:14	dcnstrct	cemerick, I was just about to ask a question about setting up swank/clime for clojure... what do you recommend instead of emacs ?
10:14	Chousuke	I can't honestly suggest IDE plugins to most people since I have no idea how well they work
10:14	Chousuke	I can at best say "There are IDE plugins, you might want to try them"
10:14	cemerick	Chousuke: that's honestly good enough
10:14	rsynnott	poor emacs!
10:14	rsynnott	No-one loves it
10:15	licoresse	I do!
10:15	cemerick	dcnstrct: enclojure for NetBeans is what I use all day, and it's very nice; I also hear good things about the intellij plugin
10:15	cemerick	rsynnott: inch wide, and miles deep, they do. :-)
10:16	rsynnott	I had a look at enclojure at some point; I found netbeans to be unreasonably slow
10:16	rsynnott	(though possibly it's the fault of my computer)
10:16	rsynnott	I'm an emacs person myself
10:16	cemerick	dcnstrct: you can poke into #enclojure for support with that, and there's a google group. I think there's forums for the intellij plugin.
10:17	dcnstrct	I was hoping you had some vi solution that works kind of like slime. I want something terminal based so I can make use of every pixel of resolution on this 10" netbook.
10:17	Chousuke	VimClojure supports swank somehow I think
10:17	dcnstrct	can enclojure do a "full screen" mode ?
10:17	dcnstrct	I'll check out VimClojure
10:18	Chousuke	or might not be swank, but an integrated repl anyway
10:18	cemerick	dcnstrct: netbeans has a nice full screen mode
10:18	Raynes	The only people who prefer Vi(m) over Emacs are just too afraid of change. /intentionalflamebait
10:18	Chousuke	:P
10:18	cemerick	:-(
10:19	Chousuke	I still navigate using arrows in emacs
10:19	sattvik	dcnstrct: VimClojure is pretty good. If you use screen or have two terminals open, you can run a REPL in one of them and Vim in the other.
10:19	Chousuke	I just can't learn the modifier key ways of emacs
10:19	Raynes	Chousuke: So do I. :>
10:19	Chousuke	though often I also use search to navigate
10:19	etate	sattvik: emacs doesn't play well with screen :(
10:20	Chousuke	which is faster than arrows or meta-whatever
10:20	Raynes	I'm ashamed to say that I use the scroll wheel and left mouse button more than I should. :(
10:21	Chousuke	heh
10:21	Chousuke	the scroll wheel in my mouse is broken, and I still haven't been bothered by that enough to buy a new one :P
10:22	Chousuke	I barely use it even when browsing
10:22	pjackson	Whilst I was trying to learn C-{n,p} etc. I bound the arrow keys to (insert "no"), or something equally annoying.
10:22	pjackson	I had it down within the day.
10:23	nuba	xmonad
10:23	dcnstrct	I will give both VimClojure and Enclojure(fullscreen) a shot before I circle back around to trying to fix slime/swank/emacs
10:23	nuba	and vimperator
10:23	nuba	Chousuke: will get you a long way mouseless
10:23	Raynes	XMonad is great for a while, but then it gets old.
10:23	Chousuke	nuba: yeah, I use vimperator
10:23	Chousuke	nuba: on OS X though
10:23	dcnstrct	I like Awesome for a window manager
10:23	Raynes	Probably not so much "fixing" as much as it is "doing it right". :p
10:23	nuba	Raynes: have you tried tiling window managers and then went back for the world of resize/move/etc. ?
10:24	Chousuke	nuba: the only app that really needs a mouse is the finder :(
10:24	Raynes	But "doing it right" is relative, because there are many different ways to do it right.
10:24	Raynes	nuba: Yes. Several.
10:25	Raynes	I used XMonad for several months, and Bluetile for about 1 and a half.
10:25	Raynes	I ended up full circle back at Metacity.
10:25	licoresse	A window manager I like a lot on OS X is SizeUp
10:25	sattvik	dcnstrct: With a proper classpath set up, you can run something like http://gist.github.com/330413 to set up nailgun and start a REPL.
10:25	nuba	Raynes: would you be willing to say more about it? I've switched to xmonad last month after trying stumpwm for a while and being a compiz whiz (scale and groups and etc) for some years before that
10:26	nuba	Raynes: i've grown tired of moving windows and resizing windows around
10:26	nuba	Raynes: and i'm pretty happy with xmonad atm. but a new perspective is always good to hear.
10:26	Raynes	I just got tired of the way things looked, and configuration to make it better was too much of a pain. That and a couple of bugs such as the infamous gray-swing-window bug and such.
10:27	nuba	Raynes: so you actually fine-tuned it with xmonad-contrib before giving up ?
10:27	Raynes	If you have one thing the size you need it, then nothing else on the screen is the size you need it, and changing the sizes takes longer for me with the keyboard. This is probably a side effect of a small monitor.
10:27	Raynes	I didn't do much 'fine tuning'.
10:28	Raynes	'Fine tuning' to get things the way I wanted would have been more frustrating and time consuming then pkill xmonad && metacity -replace
10:29	Raynes	;)
10:29	nuba	I can relate to that in a way, I use two screens, the notebook's large and high-res monitor and a smaller one, 15" LCD and 1024x768. its stellar on the larger and not quite so in the smaller one.
10:29	nuba	on the fine tuning, i saw a bunch of xmonad.hs then cooked up my own setup from that. and i'm pretty happy about it now.
10:29	nuba	but thanks for sharing!
10:30	Raynes	Bluetile was nice and I would have stuck with it, if not for general ugliness, inefficiency, and buggyness.
10:30	dcnstrct	http://awesome.naquadah.org/ <-- anyone who likes xmonad should at least glance at this project sometime if not try it.
10:31	Raynes	For example, if you have Firefox maximized over other not-maximized windows, then clicking on the area where the border of one of those windows is below firefox, IN Firefox, latches on and resizes the window below it.
10:31	Raynes	I use firefox as an example because it's usually maximized, but it applies to any window that overlaps other windows.
10:36	Mec	Is there a clearn/better/more idiomatic way to do any of this: http://go.pastie.org/866621 it seems a bit clumsy
10:38	psykotic	wow, i missed an emacs slug fest
10:38	LauJensen	What is the Weapon of Choice for non Emacers, Enclojure of IntelliJ ? I'm a little scared about the 'alpha' on Enclojure's website :)
10:39	Mec	I tried those two, gave up and went back to clojurebox
10:39	psykotic	i actually hope that attention on editor integration won't become too fragmented. frankly, slime integration still isn't that great--if enclojure, etc, isn't even up to that standard, it's a call to arms for us emacsers
10:41	psykotic	and regarding the 'identification' of a language with an editor, it didn't seem to hurt the uptake in ruby when rails hit the scene and was almost identical with use of textmate
10:41	psykotic	of course, textmate has a 'slightly' smoother learning curve
10:41	cemerick	psykotic: slightly? ;-)
10:41	psykotic	well, it's also a glorified version of notepad, so how hard could the learning curve possibly be? :)
10:41	cemerick	psykotic: I find enclojure very pleasant, FWIW.
10:42	cemerick	nah, that's not fair to textmate
10:42	psykotic	i hear it's improved; i haven't tried it around the time when rails came out and dhh's screencasts convinced me to look at it
10:42	psykotic	*since around the time
10:43	SynrG	i haven't used enclojure for anything serious, yet. just dabbling around. looks slick, tho. my big objection is it's overkill on my poor little eeepc
10:43	psykotic	cemerick: are there any clojure-related features of enclojure that aren't in slime?
10:43	cemerick	but regardless, emacs has a reputation (well-earned) that doesn't help clojure given the need to fight the lisp reputation in some circles (ill-earned IMO)
10:43	SynrG	resource usage probably isn't the worst part (i did put 2G ram in it). it wants a lot of screen real estate
10:43	cemerick	psykotic: probably not, but that's besides the point.
10:44	psykotic	cemerick: maybe besides your point, but i wanted to know :)
10:44	caljunior	I used textmate exclusively until Lau's screencasts helped me get started with emacs
10:44	cemerick	I've not used slime in years, so I'm not the one to comment on comparisons.
10:44	caljunior	the textmate clojure bundle has some serious issues though
10:44	cemerick	yeah, TM can't support anything lispy.
10:45	psykotic	on the flip side, if clojure had been identical with something like eclipse, me and a lot of other people might not have tried it :)
10:45	caljunior	well, paren support is actually quite good
10:45	psykotic	i think clojure's lisp roots helped its initial growth a lot
10:46	psykotic	emacs is part of that
10:46	SynrG	i tried to like emacs. maybe i just didn't try hard enough
10:46	Chousuke	paredit was what finally sold emacs to me
10:46	psykotic	not a big fan of paredit
10:46	Chousuke	and git, and org-mode, and the latex environment... :P
10:46	Chousuke	magit*
10:46	psykotic	i've had arguments with riastradh about this endlessly, heh
10:47	psykotic	org-mode on the other hand... <3 :)
10:47	Chousuke	psykotic: all the mismatched brackets I would have without paredit would drive me nuts
10:47	psykotic	paren pair highlighting is enough for me
10:48	Chousuke	Well, yeah, but if the editor can ensure that the parens are always matched, why not let it do that?
10:48	caljunior	I think textmate is actually a rather important gateway editor for new clojurians. Especially for those coming from dynamic languages.
10:49	psykotic	my problem with paredit and even more 'real' structure editors is that they don't allow you to go move between two valid states via invalid states
10:49	psykotic	they try to ensure that every step is structurally well formed
10:49	etate	psykotic: there aren't many invalid states to get into though (comments & ctrl-w being the main exceptions)
10:50	cemerick	caljunior: Interesting point. TM's bundle system isn't up to snuff for a lisp, tho. I wonder what could be done to get around that.
10:50	psykotic	i guess in general what i like about emacs is that it's a text editor, and i think a lot of this structural editing gets in the way of that, it's too confusing for me
10:50	zmila	just found waterfront - simple clojure ide, core written in java, the rest in clojure
10:50	LauJensen	Ok - So bottom line is that there is no viable alternative to Emacs ?
10:50	psykotic	EMACS WINS. FLAWLESS VICTORY!
10:50	etate	psykotic: once you get used to it it makes you much more productive with editing lisp code
10:50	cemerick	LauJensen: you forgot the ;-) at the end of that
10:51	LauJensen	cemerick: It was a serious question, trying to sum up your discussion above
10:51	etate	psykotic: i'd say paredit is actually the best reason to program in lisp
10:51	psykotic	etate: i gave it a fair shake a few years ago when i hung out on #scheme with riastradh, and it never grew on me
10:51	caljunior	cemerick: I actually don't agree. TM lisp support is sufficient. It's the classpath definitions that in the TM bundle that have issues.
10:51	cemerick	LauJensen: well, the above discussion is most emacs users talking.
10:51	etate	psykotic: it takes a while to get used to
10:51	LauJensen	I only use Emacs because its the best - if something better comes along, I'm not bound to any oath of loyalty
10:51	psykotic	LauJensen: turncoat!
10:51	Chousuke	psykotic: paredit is confusing initially, but once you realise that it's just doing what you would do manually anyway, it's great. :)
10:52	psykotic	okay, maybe i'll try it again
10:52	psykotic	btw, there are lots of emacs things i still haven't seen to the same extent elsewhere
10:52	psykotic	like... align.el
10:52	cemerick	caljunior: huh, last I looked at it, all of the parsing in TM bundles was regex-based. Makes things difficult.
10:52	psykotic	i hear there's an align extension for vim but i looked at the code and it's kind of pathetic
10:52	LauJensen	paredit is horrible - like crutches for text editing
10:52	Chousuke	crutches? :/
10:53	psykotic	cemerick: for what it's worth, emacs's syntax tables are also regex based, and equally pathetic
10:53	Chousuke	LauJensen: you're not editing just text, you're editing lisp code
10:53	cemerick	interesting
10:53	psykotic	i hate emacs syntax tables
10:53	etate	LauJensen: paredit is a way of making parens disappear
10:53	LauJensen	etate: Routines handles that just fine
10:53	Chousuke	LauJensen: it has a certain structure, and paredit just enforces that structure and makes editing it more natural
10:53	psykotic	the few modes that do real parsing tend to be pretty extreme
10:53	The-Kenny	LauJensen: You're not editing text - You're editing threes based on parens
10:53	psykotic	like yegge's js2-mode
10:53	caljunior	key point is that paren support (highlighting etc) works well in textmate.
10:53	psykotic	or cedet/semantic
10:54	psykotic	semantic _completely_ reimplements lex and yacc in emacs lisp, on top of eieio, which is a clos reimplementation in elisp
10:54	caljunior	there is a nagging issue with compile step and path with spces
10:54	psykotic	it's... pretty insane
10:54	Chousuke	LauJensen: plain text editing can do what paredit does with lisp code, but it's more cumbersome :)
10:54	caljunior	spaces
10:54	psykotic	Chousuke: emacs already has sexp-based navigation without paredit
10:54	LauJensen	Chousuke: I've already tried it, so the sales-pitch is useless :)
10:54	etate	Chousuke: not always, i mean think about transposing sexps, removing the outer sexps, inserting inner sexps
10:55	The-Kenny	psykotic: But it doesn't support {} and []
10:55	etate	Chousuke: that kind of thing takes time to do by hand
10:55	psykotic	etate: transpose-sexp has been in emacs forever, outside paredit
10:55	Chousuke	psykotic: it's not just navigating that paredit does.
10:55	psykotic	same with forward-sexp, mark-sexp, etc
10:55	psykotic	i know that some of the inside/outside stuff isn't in emacs by default
10:55	Chousuke	personally, I use the paren matching, barf and slurp
10:56	etate	psykotic: what about alt arrow up
10:56	psykotic	which one is that?
10:56	etate	psykotic: remove outer sexp
10:56	Chousuke	and those are enough to keep me addicted :P
10:56	Chousuke	oh, and kill-sexp as well
10:56	Chousuke	it's essential
10:56	psykotic	Chousuke: dude, that's also a default emacs feature
10:57	psykotic	lisp.el
10:57	psykotic	it also has up/down-list for inside/outside navigation
10:57	psykotic	what it doesn't have are things like kill outer sexp
10:57	Chousuke	psykotic: well, one less source of addiction for paredit then
10:57	psykotic	hehe
10:58	Chousuke	psykotic: but emacs still doesn't keep the structure sane by default
10:58	psykotic	right
10:58	psykotic	but like i said, i enjoy having the default editing be text editor like
10:58	psykotic	when i want to edit/navigate structurally, i'll use explicit commands
10:59	psykotic	but i'll use this opportunity to reevaluate paredit, so it's been useful to chat about it
10:59	etate	how do you find all the methods that are bound to a java interface from clojure?
10:59	Chousuke	I'm so used to paredit that I can't imagine myself wanting to edit lisp code as text.
10:59	psykotic	btw, i have some of my own code that i think is a million things nicer to use than transpose-sexp
10:59	psykotic	i call it drag-sexp (i have versions for words, lines, etc, as well)
10:59	psykotic	it acts like cell motion in org-mode
10:59	psykotic	for tables
11:00	Chousuke	hm, can you give an example? :/
11:00	Chousuke	I haven't done any tables in org-mode
11:00	psykotic	basically you can drag 'units' (like sexps) around and it maintains intraunit point positioning
11:00	psykotic	i never liked emacs's transpose semantics, so maybe it's just me
11:02	psykotic	well, it's not just org mode tables that work like that, outline items work the same way
11:02	psykotic	when you drag them up/down, in/out, it maintains your point positoning within that outline element
11:06	psykotic	if you want to play around with it, i posted some of my code here: http://gist.github.com/328872
11:08	neotyk	Hi *
11:10	The-Kenny	psykotic: Not just dragging. You can do the same with meta + arrow keys
11:10	The-Kenny	which is a feature I miss in every other writing application
11:10	psykotic	The-Kenny: you mean org-mode?
11:10	The-Kenny	psykotic: Yes ;) But more small things from org-mode. Like re-ordering outlines with just meta + arrow keys
11:11	psykotic	right
11:11	The-Kenny	A simple and fast way to restructure outlines
11:11	psykotic	using org-mode made me addicted to the 'kinetic' feel of moving things around
11:11	The-Kenny	Same for tables
11:11	psykotic	transpose-paragraphs, etc, is shit in comparison
11:11	psykotic	so that's why i wrote that code i posted
11:11	psykotic	i use it all the time now, whereas i never used transpose
11:12	psykotic	org-mode is pretty much a masterclass in awesomeness from beginning to end
11:13	psykotic	i know some emacs people dislike it because it's a bit aggressive with overriding emacs defaults, but it generally IMPROVES on those defaults
11:14	neotyk	how cool, I'm checking out orgmode.org
11:15	neotyk	thanks psykotic and The-Kenny
11:15	psykotic	i have an ongoing org-table hack that is nearing completion. have you ever seen http://cleanupdata.com/?
11:15	The-Kenny	neotyk: Also check out one or two screencasts about it. We told you almost nothing about it.
11:15	psykotic	anyway, i have a sort of emacs/org-mode equivalent of that in the works. what it basically does is record macros on org-mode table cells and replay them LIVE as you type on other rows
11:15	The-Kenny	neotyk: Oh, and it's integrated in emacs. You really need to fetch it, if you want the latest version
11:15	psykotic	it's mostly a novelty but it's pretty awesome
11:16	psykotic	the best intro i've seen is carsten dominik's google techtalk
11:16	psykotic	(he's the creator)
11:17	The-Kenny	psykotic: there's a new one by dominik which is good to
11:17	psykotic	oh?
11:17	The-Kenny	psykotic: wait a second
11:18	The-Kenny	hm... searching history just crashed my browser
11:18	psykotic	btw one of my favorite new org-mode things is mac-org-protocol
11:18	The-Kenny	ah, found it: http://emacsworld.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-org-mode-talk-from-carsten-dominik.html
11:18	psykotic	it lets you easily fire things to org-mode/remember with something liek quicksilver
11:19	The-Kenny	psykotic: Hm.. I tried getting mac-org-protocol, but all it did was open my finder :D
11:19	psykotic	it's set up to grab as much app context as possible, using applescript
11:19	psykotic	so for example if you use safari, it will grab the current url as context
11:20	psykotic	oh i see, that screencast is about org-protocol as well
11:20	The-Kenny	Huh, it is?
11:21	psykotic	sorry, haha, i was looking at a google search result
11:21	psykotic	http://www.mail-archive.com/emacs-orgmode@gnu.org/msg14279.html
11:25	triyo	with defmathod, how do I go about defining an optional method argument?
11:25	triyo	if possible
11:29	etate	hmm, this may sound silly but how do i ensure a value returned is of a specific type
11:29	etate	for example in Java you can do IClass class = meth();
11:30	etate	in clojure just meth() is returning the wrong type
11:30	nuba	dont mess with meth
11:30	nuba	its dangerous
11:31	psykotic	fucks up your teeth
11:32	Raynes	inb4heynowdon'tbeusingfowllanguagewehostchildrenandadultsalike
11:33	psykotic	sorry, i'll be nice and church-like
11:33	Raynes	psykotic: I know. I find it silly as well. :(
11:33	dcnstrct	does anyone know what version of swank/slime will work properly with this guide ? http://riddell.us/tutorial/slime_swank/slime_swank.html or does anyone have a guide for installing swank/slime that works with the latest sources from git ?
11:34	psykotic	etate: i guess the easiest would be to write a simpler helper function that asserts on the class and otherwise returns the value
11:34	clojurebot	classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
11:35	etate	psykotic: i want to access the value as an IClass rather than as a native ref
11:35	dcnstrct	btw I tried enclojure... with the latest nebeans on ubuntu... massive fail.. the create project system pukes with some mysterious error I can't decipher :(
11:35	etate	psykotic: in Java its just IClass x = getValue()
11:36	SynrG	dcnstrct: latest netbeans on ubuntu? if it's based on the debian one it is ooold
11:37	SynrG	dcnstrct: i have given up waiting for packaging for netbeans. i just use upstream's installer. works fine on debian squeeze.
11:37	joshua-choi	I’m wondering something: Rich strongly states that we should always use (seq ...) instead of (not (empty? ...)). Why?
11:38	psykotic	etate: something like this?
11:39	dcnstrct	SynrG, 6.8
11:39	psykotic	,(letfn [(with-class [cls x] (assert (= (class x) cls)) x)] (with-class java.lang.Integer 42))
11:39	clojurebot	42
11:39	dcnstrct	Synrg, I'll google for upstream's installer and try it
11:39	psykotic	,(letfn [(with-class [cls x] (assert (= (class x) cls)) x)] (with-class java.lang.Integer "foo"))
11:39	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Assert failed: (= (class x) cls)
11:39	AWizzArd	joshua-choi: this is idiomatic in Clojure, I guess because it is shorter
11:40	SynrG	dcnstrct: i just mean the one from netbeans.org itself
11:40	psykotic	etate: you can wrap that around any call to check the class
11:40	SynrG	working fine with openjdk
11:40	psykotic	sorry, that's actually too strict, equality rather than isa
11:40	etate	psykotic: the thing is i know what the class is, the problem is its the wrong class :)
11:41	psykotic	what do you mean by the wrong class?
11:41	etate	psykotic: oh no wait its not... the error must come from something else
11:42	etate	psykotic: i just tried (class x) on the value and its the right class.. still crashes my jvm hmmm
11:49	sattvik	joshua-choi: I think it's from Clojure's Lisp roots. Booleans in Clojure, I believe, are an artifact of running in the JVM.
11:50	Chousuke	joshua-choi: using seq is an idiom, and (not (empty? ...)) needlessly goes against that idiom
11:52	Chousuke	they both convey the same information, but the former is more familiar to clojurians
11:52	psykotic	especially seeing that empty? is a macro for (not (seq ...)). every time you write that, i reaed it as (not (not (seq ...)) :)
11:58	Mec	Is there anything you can do when you want to use -> but sometimes the expression needs to go 2nd, last, or somewhere in the middle?
11:58	joshua-choi	Chousuke: seq creates a sequence object. Does empty? also create a sequence object?
12:00	lpetit	joshua-choi: it is idiomatic in the following piece of code : (if-let [s (seq smthing)]) versus (if (not (empty? smthing)) (let [s (seq smthing)] ...) I guess
12:01	joshua-choi	The former seems better, since if empty? creates a seq object, then the latter creates the same seq object twice.
12:01	joshua-choi	Oh, and it’s shorter. :)
12:02	lpetit	quite shorter :-)
12:02	psykotic	mec: i posted a macro for this a while ago.
12:03	psykotic	mec: http://gist.github.com/328830
12:03	Mec	psykotic: thanks
12:04	Mec	on the off chance i need to include an anonymous function, does it have to be % as the placeholder?
12:04	psykotic	no, of course, just replace the '% with whatever placeholder
12:05	Mec	ah ok
12:05	psykotic	but it should work with anonymous functions
12:05	psykotic	try it. i call macroexpand-all on the arguments first, so anonymous function macros like that should have expanded away the %'s by the time i do my codewalking
12:05	Mec	ah i see
12:05	Mec	I'll play around with it
12:18	psykotic	so, i'm using paredit and i remember why i hate it. half of its commands beyond lisp.el are only needed because of paredit's bondage and discipline wrt structural consistency.
12:18	psykotic	serenity now
12:20	Chousuke	Does that matter? :/
12:20	Chousuke	I use only about three paredit features
12:21	psykotic	i like C-k
12:21	psykotic	but i basically dislike the fundamental philosophy behind paredit. org-mode is the anti-paredit
12:21	Chousuke	yeah, that's my favourite, too. :P
12:21	psykotic	org-mode lets you type text as you want and it tries to make sense of it
12:21	psykotic	paredit is a cruel taskmaster
12:21	Chousuke	but they're for two purposes
12:22	Chousuke	org-mode accepts free-form text because that's how it's designed. but your lisp compiler won't accept free-form text
12:22	psykotic	i've known riastradh for years and i feel like he's standing over my desk, snapping a whip while yelling 'STRUCTURAL CONSISTENCY, SLAVE!'
12:22	Chousuke	or I guess I should say reader
12:22	psykotic	well, i know lisp syntax
12:23	psykotic	the point is that when i'm typing, i want to be the one in control
12:23	Chousuke	but what do you need to control? :/
12:23	psykotic	my point is that a lot of things in paredit are only there because of the need for each intermediate state to be consistent
12:23	Chousuke	I've never found paredit actually obstructing what I need to do.
12:23	psykotic	e.g. barf/slurp
12:24	psykotic	bed time, later
12:24	Chousuke	the downside of manual control is that you have to track parentheses manually
12:25	Chousuke	highlighting helps, but with paredit the need disappears completely.
12:25	Knekk	what's the way to turn ((1 2) (3 4)) into (1 2 3 4)
12:27	Chousuke	in clojure or in paredit? :P
12:27	Chousuke	you can apply concat for flattening one level, or use flatten
12:27	Knekk	sorry, clojure :)
12:27	Knekk	flatten is a contrib?
12:28	dnolen	clojure.contrib.seq-utils I think
12:28	Knekk	thank you
12:29	S11001001	Knekk: remember that strings aren't sequential, but they are seq-able
12:30	Knekk	S11001001: I will try to remember, even tho it doesn't have a bearing on my current problem :)
12:31	Knekk	is S11001001 a bot?
12:33	S11001001	Knekk: it's unlikely
12:35	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to enforce the turing test?
12:35	clojurebot	latest is 1382
12:35	hiredman	:/
12:38	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
12:38	clojurebot	latest is 1382
12:39	hiredman	clojurebot: forget latest is 1382
12:39	clojurebot	I forgot latest is 1382
12:39	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
12:39	clojurebot	latest is 1382
12:39	hiredman	LIAR
13:01	slyphon	technomancy: hey, just sent you a message on github
13:01	slyphon	re: leiningen notes
13:03	technomancy	slyphon: awesome; thanks
13:03	slyphon	sure, i hope it's useful
13:58	etate	is there something obvious i'm missing here wrt to gen-class.. (ns foo.bar (:gen-class)) then calling (foo.bar.) gives me a class not found exception
13:58	S11001001	etate: only works when compiling file
13:59	etate	S11001001: with (compile "foo.bar.clj") >
13:59	etate	?
13:59	hiredman	that is not right
13:59	etate	because that doesn't work either: string cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named
13:59	hiredman	did you read the docstring for compile?
14:00	hiredman	have you read the compile documentation on clojure.org?
14:00	etate	no i kindof assumed ctrl-c ctrl-c compiled the code :
14:00	etate	:/
14:00	hiredman	there is compiling and then there is aot compiling
14:01	hiredman	,(doc compile)
14:01	clojurebot	"([lib]); Compiles the namespace named by the symbol lib into a set of classfiles. The source for the lib must be in a proper classpath-relative directory. The output files will go into the directory specified by compile-path, and that directory too must be in the classpath."
14:01	hiredman	~compiling
14:01	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:01	hiredman	clojurebot: compile?
14:01	clojurebot	the unit of compilation in clojure is the namespace. namespaces are compiled (not files). to compile a namspace the namespace needs to be on the classpath and so does ./classes/ (and the directory needs to exist) because clojure writes the class files to that directory. http://clojure.org/compilation
14:02	hiredman	and your file name and namespace don't match up, so aot compilation won't work, regardless
14:02	hiredman	~namespace
14:02	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
14:03	etate	hiredman: by single segment namespaces, does that mean i shouldn't have just one dir with lots of .clj files in it?
14:03	hiredman	huh? no
14:04	hiredman	why would you think that?
14:05	hiredman	as long as your namespaces are all dir.filename having one directory full of files is no problem
14:05	etate	hiredman: because if a segment of a namespace corresponds to a directory in a classpath, having it just one level deep is a single segment?
14:05	etate	hiredman: oh okay
14:05	hiredman	etate: "they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj"
14:05	hiredman	it does not say they correspond to directories
14:07	etate	in other words if i add /clojure/ to classpath, and it contains ./foo/file.clj within it, the namespace correspondence will be foo.file?
14:07	hiredman	yes
14:07	etate	okay, sorry for the mild stupidity
14:15	etate	hmm still doesn't work
14:15	etate	:(
14:15	hiredman	have you read the compile documentation on clojure.org?
14:17	etate	hiredman: yes
14:18	etate	hiredman: i created a folder c:\clojure\foo, with a file c:\clojure\foo\bar.clj
14:19	etate	hiredman: then i created a folder c:\clojure\classes and c:\clojure\foo\classes, then i added c:\clojure\, c:\clojure\foo and c:\clojure\classes, c:\clojure\foo\classes to the class path
14:19	rads	is there any difference between (declare foo) and (def foo)?
14:19	etate	hiredman: then i did (compile 'foo.bar) -> error cannot find foo__init.class
14:20	etate	sorry bar__init.class
14:20	hiredman	why do you have a c:\clojure\foo\classes?
14:20	Mec	rads: declare is for when you want to use a var in a definition before it is defined, and then later defined with def
14:20	etate	hiredman: i was checking to see if it helped
14:20	SynrG	,(doc def)
14:20	clojurebot	DENIED
14:20	hiredman	etate: why do you think it would help?
14:20	SynrG	oh, so you're like that, are you?
14:21	etate	hiredman: because the other classes folder didn't
14:21	nteon	clojurebot: def?
14:21	clojurebot	That is the one thing Clojure can not do.
14:21	nteon	heh
14:22	StartsWithK	etate, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/188909/
14:22	hiredman	etate: and how are you compiling?
14:24	etate	hiredman: (compile 'foo.bar)
14:25	hiredman	and how did you set your classpath?
14:25	etate	StartsWithK: I can't really see what i'm missing from that paste, the differences are that you're using a src folder in your classpath whereas i'm using the base c:\clojure folder
14:25	etate	StartsWithK: also you have a lib with clojure in it which i don't have, clojure is found elsewhere
14:26	hiredman	etate: "found elsewhere" is not a good idea
14:26	StartsWithK	etate, just start from this and expand to your use case, so you can see when things fail
14:26	etate	hiredman: I used (add-to-list 'swank-clojure-classpath dir)
14:26	hiredman	…
14:27	hiredman	and what does (System/getProperty "java.class.path") say?
14:28	etate	hiredman: i can't really paste it because its too long, but it includes those dirs... however what i notice is that the other classpaths that work point to .jar files
14:28	SynrG	hmm, does clojurebot just not like me, or did i ask it a naughty question?
14:28	SynrG	,(def declare)
14:28	clojurebot	DENIED
14:28	etate	hiredman: all the ones that point to dirs don't seem to work
14:28	hiredman	jar files in a classpath are the same as a directory containing the contents of a directory
14:28	SynrG	i guess it's just me :)
14:29	SynrG	oops
14:29	SynrG	,(doc declare)
14:29	clojurebot	"([& names]); defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations."
14:29	hiredman	are you using relative or absolute paths?
14:29	SynrG	but to:
14:29	etate	hiredman: absolute, with a trailing slash
14:29	SynrG	,(doc def)
14:29	clojurebot	DENIED
14:29	SynrG	my repl says:
14:29	SynrG	Special Form Please see http://clojure.org/special_forms#def
14:30	SynrG	so why is repl (1.1.0) smarter than clojurebot?
14:30	hiredman	etate: and what if you don't use slime?
14:30	etate	hiredman: could not locate foo/bar__init.class
14:31	hiredman	that is from the repl?
14:31	hiredman	(clojure.main, not slime)
14:32	Fossi	SynrG: clojurebot is just locked up, so nobody takes control of it or crashes it
14:34	etate	hiredman: i get a different error now
14:35	etate	hiredman: the system cannot find the path specified
14:35	hiredman	how are you starting clojure?
14:35	etate	hiredman: i start it with clojure box and a modified default.el
14:35	hiredman	11:31 hiredman : etate: and what if you don't use slime?
14:35	etate	hiredman: if i don't use slime i get the file not found error whilst writing the class
14:36	hiredman	,(doc compile-path)
14:36	clojurebot	"; Specifies the directory where 'compile' will write out .class files. This directory must be in the classpath for 'compile' to work. Defaults to \"classes\""
14:36	hiredman	the compile-path defaults to a relative path
14:38	etate	hiredman: the compile path was set to "classes" which i thought was correct, i tried using an absolute path to the classes dir in c:\\clojure\\ and same error
14:38	hiredman	etate: what do you mean "tried"
14:38	hiredman	you changed compile-path?
14:38	etate	hiredman: as in i added "c:\\clojure\\classes\\" to class-path
14:38	etate	hiredman: no, should i do that?
14:39	hiredman	compile-path and classpath have no connection, except for compilation to work the directory specified in the former must be in the latter
14:40	hiredman	doing things with the classpath does not effect compile-path at all
14:41	etate	hiredman: well the basedir c:\\clojure\\ is on the classpath and contains a dir named "classes" which is empty
14:41	hiredman	so?
14:42	etate	so if compile-path is set to "classes" and its relative to the classpath, then that should be correct right?
14:42	psykotic	no
14:42	StartsWithK	etate, relative to "user.dir" property
14:42	psykotic	there's a million directories on the class path
14:42	hiredman	etate: how would having the output directory be relative to the classpath possibly work?
14:43	hiredman	^- what psykotic said
14:43	etate	hmm good point
14:45	etate	in other words i should find a way to add to the compile-path
14:45	hiredman	there is one compile-path
14:45	hiredman	it is not like the classpath, again, how would it work if it had multiple paths?
14:45	hiredman	you can change the compile-path a few ways
14:47	Drakeson	1. is it possible to use build.xml and project.clj together? or, 2. are there any examples for porting build.xml to project.clj?
14:47	hiredman	if you are at the repl you can use binding or maybe set! to change it
14:48	hiredman	Drakeson: no and no
14:49	etate	hiredman: is that wise though? because the clojure classes dir contains a lot of clojure specific code
14:49	hiredman	etate: um
14:50	Drakeson	hiredman: I see.
14:50	hiredman	etate: your project should not be in the same directory as clojure
14:50	hiredman	you should build a clojure jar and put that on your classpath
14:51	etate	hiredman: right, but when java starts its relative to the clojure dir i believe
14:51	etate	hiredman: or maybe not
14:51	Drakeson	hiredman: do you happen to know a project using project.clj that also compiles some java sources?
14:51	hiredman	Drakeson: there is a lein plugin that does java compilation
14:52	hiredman	clojurebot: lein-java
14:52	clojurebot	Huh?
14:52	hiredman	clojurebot: google lein-java
14:52	clojurebot	First, out of 362000 results is:
14:52	clojurebot	antoniogarrote's lein-javac at master - GitHub
14:52	clojurebot	http://github.com/antoniogarrote/lein-javac
14:52	Drakeson	hiredman: thanks :)
14:52	psykotic	no, it's relative to the current working directory at the time of execution...
14:52	psykotic	it doesn't matter where the clojure jar is. how could it?
14:53	hiredman	well, it matters for the classpath
14:53	psykotic	sure
14:53	psykotic	i'm talking about user.dir
14:54	hiredman	sure
14:54	psykotic	etate: iirc, the getting started page has a good overview of this stuff.
14:54	etate	psykotic: i think its the swank-clojure that starts java
14:54	etate	i just downloaded clojure box so i have no idea where the java process is starting
14:55	psykotic	that's the problem with bundles like that
14:55	psykotic	anyway, i still don't understand why you're putting all your code in the clojure dir
14:56	etate	psykotic: i'm not... my code is in c:\\clojure\\ but the clojure dir is under c:\\cygwin\\...
14:56	psykotic	ah, i see what you're getting at
14:56	etate	but yeah theres nothing in the default site-lisp that says anything about starting the java process, mmy guess is swank-clojure starts it
14:56	hiredman	then why would you care about the classes directory the clojure build process uses?
14:57	psykotic	i guess because the user.dir is in the clojure directory
14:57	etate	hiredman: i'm just trying to figure out where this relative "classes" dir is lol
14:57	hiredman	I doubt it
14:57	etate	or supposed to be
14:57	hiredman	etate: it doesn't have to be relative, you can change it
14:57	hiredman	(System/getProperty "user.dir")
14:58	etate	OMG
14:58	etate	IT WORKS
14:58	psykotic	high five :)
14:58	etate	are there any side effects to me changing compile-path? apart from the set! i mean
14:59	The-Kenny	Maybe (binding ...) works
14:59	hiredman	any classes you generate using compile will go in that directory
15:00	etate	hiredman: is there a way of having different projects generate in different classes directories without having to start a different process
15:00	etate	user.dir is == c:\\windows\\system32 anyway :/
15:00	hiredman	etate: is there a real reason you need to aot compile?
15:01	etate	hiredman: AOT = ahead of time?
15:01	hiredman	yes
15:01	hiredman	what compile does
15:02	etate	hiredman: yeah i'm trying to extend a java class
15:03	etate	hiredman: and i don't want to do it dynamically with proxy for efficiency reasons
15:03	hiredman	what version of clojure are you using?
15:03	hiredman	do you really need a stable name? I would look at reify
15:04	technomancy	etate: you should probably write it in proxy first and get it working, then switch to gen-class once you have profiled it and determined that it's an actual bottleneck
15:04	technomancy	because it's probably not
15:04	StartsWithK	gen-class is not realy fast
15:04	StartsWithK	it may even be slower than a proxy
15:04	hiredman	right
15:04	hiredman	gen-class generates a stub that calls out to the clojure functions
15:04	hiredman	similar to proxy
15:06	etate	technomancy: its not just for efficiency, its also to be able to have static methods, a main etc
15:06	hiredman	I really recommend against tieing yourself to aot (as it is largly a deadweight)
15:06	etate	hiredman: a deadweight? what do you mean?
15:06	hiredman	it will drag you to the bottom and you will drown
15:07	etate	haha
15:07	hiredman	I mean for the pain it causes it gives you relatively little
15:07	StartsWithK	but there is a catch :)
15:07	StartsWithK	how do you start a clojure app
15:07	StartsWithK	hihihi
15:08	hiredman	java -cp whatever foo.clj
15:08	StartsWithK	you can or :gen-class to get main
15:08	hiredman	er
15:08	StartsWithK	or yes yes
15:08	hiredman	java -cp whatever clojure.main foo.clj
15:08	StartsWithK	and now you have a problem
15:08	StartsWithK	your ide will eval foo.clj
15:08	etate	so proxy is the same as gen-class but easier to use?
15:08	etate	and gen-class provides main but thats the only benefit?
15:08	hiredman	StartsWithK: only if your ide sucks
15:08	StartsWithK	as your 'main' is outside of any function in that case
15:08	StartsWithK	hiredman, all ides suck
15:09	hiredman	java -cp whatever clojure.main -e "(use 'foo.bar) (go-web-go)"
15:09	StartsWithK	:)
15:10	hiredman	etate: oh, you can do other things with it, and if you really really need to generate classes with a stable name for some brain dead java
15:10	etate	the problem i was having was that i couldn't easily see how to extend java classes which extend other classes and call static methods etc from a proxy
15:10	hiredman	how do static methods matter in this?
15:11	hiredman	clojure has better "static methods" than java, they are called fns
15:11	etate	take a look at this java code: http://www.jmonkeyengine.com/wiki/doku.php/tutorial_1_-_learning_jme_2
15:12	etate	to me it makes it easier to think about a gen-class extending the simplegame class than a proxy
15:12	hiredman	I don't see any static methods
15:12	Apage43	... I don't see what's so difficult about that
15:12	Apage43	main() isn't pulled off SimpleGame
15:12	Apage43	only simpleInitGame() is, no probs proxying that
15:12	etate	Apage43: main isn't but rootNode & ConfigShowMode etc are
15:13	Apage43	those are static?
15:13	etate	no
15:13	hiredman	ugh
15:14	etate	bare in mind i've been in clojureland 2 days, so i basically suck
15:14	hiredman	I think you will need to use reflection to get rootNode in anycase
15:14	Apage43	probably..
15:15	Apage43	bleh.. that's a kind of icky API.
15:15	etate	yeah its hard to make sense of it for me
15:15	hiredman	this seems like one of those "here is a simple thing for newbies to use, no one will seriously use it, so we'll just do it badly" kind of things
15:15	etate	lol
15:16	etate	the best part is that the java doc link is broken
15:17	hiredman	:/
15:19	etate	hiredman: yesterday i got to the root of the JVM crash btw, it turned out that in one of the ogre4j functions, it returns a RenderList that upon access crashes the JVM.
15:19	etate	hiredman: i tried all the methods on it and most crash :(
15:19	hiredman	fun
15:20	etate	hiredman: so one 3d rendering lib has a bad API, the other is really unstable :(
15:20	Apage43	does whatever library do 3d?
15:20	Apage43	Have you considered just using JOGL/JSR-231?
15:21	Apage43	or what all libs have you looked at
15:21	duncanm	la la la
15:21	etate	Apage43: jogl / lwjgl involve writing an engine from scratch
15:22	etate	Apage43: other than that i've looked at the jmonkey and ogre4j
15:22	Apage43	what's that going to manage for you, moving stuff around?
15:22	Apage43	Collisions?
15:22	etate	Apage43: skeletal animation, collisions, easy shaders, access to d3d or opengl
15:23	etate	etc etc
15:23	hiredman	I think Lua did some work with jme
15:24	etate	hiredman: i was looking mainly at doing something in clojure
15:24	hiredman	not the language
15:24	hiredman	LauJensen
15:24	hiredman	he is, uh, some german guy?
15:25	chouser	Denmark
15:25	hiredman	some dane
15:25	hiredman	wait
15:25	hiredman	thats not right either
15:26	etate	hiredman: hmm it looks like the basegame class has a nicer api
15:26	chouser	oh, you're right. Netherlands
15:27	hiredman	clojurebot: lua?
15:27	clojurebot	Excuse me?
15:27	hiredman	clojurebot: LauJensen is some dane
15:27	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
15:27	chouser	Well, european mainland anyway. Close enough.
15:29	Apage43	etate: it looks like it's BaseSimpleGame where all those static bits are set up
15:30	etate	Apage43: theres also BaseGame, which is i think where i'll start
15:30	etate	http://www.jmonkeyengine.com/wiki/doku.php/starter:simplegame
15:30	Apage43	http://code.google.com/p/jmonkeyengine/source/browse/branches/2.0/src/com/jme/app/BaseSimpleGame.java <-- Here's what all SimpleGame does for you
15:31	SynrG	Fossi: i figurede as much. but i don't know what it was about my request that made it objectionable is all. it seemed rather strange.
15:31	SynrG	Fossi: the ,(doc def) request, that is
15:31	etate	Apage43: nice thanks ! :)
15:32	Fossi	SynrG: i bet def is blocked in any form
15:32	Apage43	You could write a java class that extends it and toss in some getter methods for the fields you want
15:32	Apage43	Or reflection -is- an option
15:33	etate	Apage43: would it not be simpler to just use gen-class, as in why do i need reflection?
15:33	hiredman	you could use clojure.asm to generate bytecode directly :D
15:33	Apage43	using clojure.contrib.reflect, from within a proxied method, you should be able to get rootNode with (get-field (.getClass this) "rootNode" this)
15:33	etate	hiredman: theres a clojure.asm? :D
15:34	Fossi	etate: crystalspace 4 the win
15:34	Fossi	only has a swig api though
15:34	hiredman	it's the ASM bytecode engineering library
15:34	hiredman	it is what clojure uses to generate jvm bytecode
15:35	etate	Apage43: in baseclass rootNode gets created by a Node class. Can i use reflection whilst using gen-class?
15:35	Apage43	rootNode is a field on the base class of type Node.
15:36	Apage43	get-field gets the current value of the field
15:36	SynrG	Fossi: ah. i hadn't considered that possibility. makes sense.
15:36	Fossi	SynrG: well, it's overly protective, but better safe than sorry :)
15:36	Apage43	I also don't know how you get at the "this" object using gen-class
15:36	Apage43	in proxy, its passed implicitly as a fn arg.
15:37	etate	Apage43: i think you get to it when defining a method (defn x [this])
15:37	Apage43	ah
15:37	Apage43	then it should work then
15:38	etate	Apage43: also are you sure rootNode is a field on the baseclass?
15:38	Apage43	as long as you make the call to get-field after rootNode has been set
15:38	Apage43	etate: rootNode is defined on BaseSimpleGame.java
15:38	Apage43	which SimpleGame extends.
15:38	etate	Apage43: right, but if i extend BaseGame instead of SimpleGame, I don't have to use reflection anymore right ? :D
15:39	Apage43	Course, since there's no rootNode to get at
15:40	rads	is there a way to add a class path to leiningen project without replacing one of the existing ones?
15:40	etate	hmm ConfigShowMode however is defined on AbstractGame which BaseGame extends
15:40	etate	but its an enum, not a class
15:41	Apage43	that.. is an enum
15:41	Apage43	hmm
15:42	etate	maybe i can just skip create a class that doesn't use any of these base classes, and use that as the base game class
15:43	Apage43	enum shouldn't be a problem since they are static.
15:43	etate	ah
15:43	robwolfe	rads: no, but why do you want to do that?
15:44	etate	Apage43: so a java enum with the fields NeverShow, AlwaysShow etc, what is the equivalent in clojure of static fields?
15:44	etate	Apage43: i don't mean Config/StaticField, i mean how can i create one that is exactly the same as the java enum, without using that enum
15:45	Apage43	you want to create a new enum?
15:46	etate	Apage43: right, but that corresponds exactly to a Java enum
15:47	Apage43	I don't think you're going about this the right way =P
15:49	etate	Apage43: lol, okay i'll try extending the base class instead of trying to write the abstract class by hand, that will probably be easier
15:49	Apage43	com.jme.app.AbstractGame.ConfigShowMode/NeverShow is a problem?
15:50	etate	Apage43: no that will most probably work :)
15:51	Apage43	er
15:51	Apage43	Might have to be AbstractGame$ConfigShowMode/NeverShow
15:51	Apage43	since ConfigShowMode is a subclass
15:58	Fossi	are you guys making a game?
15:58	etate	Fossi: trying to get a renderer working first :D
15:59	chouser	sweet. compile-time infinite recursion.
16:00	hiredman	stack blowing or just looping?
16:01	Fossi	etate: well, that's one part :)
16:01	Fossi	etate: i'm currently making a game for android, so maybe you guys wanna share some insight with functionally programming a renderer
16:02	rads	robwolfe: for a config directory
16:02	remleduff	OK, two days later I guess I give up on vimclojure again :(
16:02	chouser	stack blowing.
16:03	chouser	looks a lot like (defmacro foo [] `(foo))
16:03	remleduff	What are the current best instructions for installing emacs?
16:03	remleduff	I mean clojure in emacs
16:03	remleduff	On windows
16:04	etate	Fossi: sure, i'll share once i can get something running :D
16:04	jave	is there a .info version of the clojure reference doc?
16:05	Fossi	etate: as said, i guess i could provide some insight into crystalspace, but i never used it from java. you using ogre?
16:05	robwolfe	rads: there is "resources" directory meant for that purpose
16:05	jave	so info-lookup-symbol can be used in emacs?
16:05	etate	Fossi: no, i tried ogre yesterday but it crashes the JVM so i'm using jmonkeyengine now, to see if that works better
16:06	Fossi	ah, never used it, but heard some stuff
16:06	Fossi	actually using CS from clojure would be worth a shot for fun
16:07	Fossi	but well, too many projects, not nearly enough time ;D
16:08	etate	Fossi: why crystal space?
16:11	Fossi	etate: because it's a good engine and i've been around (and a bit of contributing) for about 7 years or such ;)
16:12	etate	Fossi: i'll check it out :)
16:16	Fossi	could somebody point me to a more sane AOT compile example than the one in the docs?
16:17	hiredman	eh?
16:17	hiredman	what is wrong with the one in the docs?
16:18	Fossi	wasn't there some way of calling the compiler directly?
16:18	hiredman	what do you mean?
16:18	hiredman	(compile 'clojure.examples.hello) looks pretty direct to me
16:19	Fossi	sorry, from the commandline
16:20	Fossi	ah, -e is what i was looking for
16:26	Fossi	i'm too stupid to get this stuff compiled ;D
16:26	Fossi	my emacs can't write to 'classes' and from the commandline i can't seem to get the classpath right ;D
16:28	Fossi	ah, is that alive and kickin'
16:28	Fossi	last time i did some clojure that was still wip
16:29	Fossi	then again, i need ant to compile the stuff for android, so i should most likely add another target to it
16:30	hiredman	android doesn't have a jit or a good gc
16:31	hiredman	(well it has a jit now, but it is not on by default)
16:31	Fossi	oh, clojars <3
16:31	Fossi	that's a good deed
16:31	Fossi	hiredman: i know
16:31	hiredman	clojure leans hard on the jit and the gc
16:31	Fossi	hiredman: i'm still doing this ;p
16:32	Fossi	the gc is absolutely killing it
16:32	Fossi	then again, i can't really get myself to do this in java. i just wait until the gc gets better
16:32	Fossi	it's not really bareable for java either
16:32	hiredman	I know technomancy is looking at duby for android developement
16:33	seangrove	Hey all, how can I take a sequence of strings and combine them into one string with spaces separating them?
16:33	Fossi	plus i want to fiddle with the dexer again some time again and finally make that faster
16:33	seangrove	Map won't work because that will of course return another string
16:33	seangrove	I suppose I could just do it recursively
16:33	Fossi	so that might be a way to get a faster repl
16:33	Fossi	(and hopefully swank/slime)
16:33	headius	yay duby
16:33	hiredman	,(reduce (partial str " ") ["a" "b" "c"])
16:33	clojurebot	" abc"
16:34	hiredman	bleh
16:34	hiredman	,(reduce (partial partial format "%s %s") ["a" "b" "c"])
16:34	clojurebot	#<core$partial__5034$fn__5044 clojure.core$partial__5034$fn__5044@1d26ddd>
16:34	hiredman	:/
16:35	hiredman	,(reduce #(format "%s %s" % %2) ["a" "b" "c"])
16:35	clojurebot	"a b c"
16:35	The-Kenny	,(reduce #(str %1 (partial " " %2)) [1 2 3])
16:35	clojurebot	"1clojure.core$partial__5034$fn__5036@17c814dclojure.core$partial__5034$fn__5036@10cf661"
16:35	The-Kenny	,(reduce #(str %1 (str " " %2)) [1 2 3])
16:35	clojurebot	"1 2 3"
16:36	hiredman	,(reduce (comp (partial apply format "%s %s") list) ["a" "b" "c"])
16:36	clojurebot	"a b c"
16:36	seangrove	Heh
16:38	hugod	,(reduce str (interpose " " ["a" "b" "c"]))
16:38	clojurebot	"a b c"
16:39	joshua-choi	I’ve been actually trying developing with the REPL now. I get it now; it’s really nice; much better than running tests repeatedly. JLine also helps a lot.
16:39	hiredman	hugod: use apply in that case
16:40	Fossi	str-join ;D
16:40	hiredman	Fossi: write a stack lisp that compiles to bytecode without needing a runtime
16:40	Fossi	thought about it
16:40	Fossi	too crazy though
16:40	Fossi	i wouldn't finish in ages
16:41	nteon	,(reduce (fn [a b] (str a " " b) ["a" "b" "c"])
16:41	clojurebot	EOF while reading
16:42	nteon	,(reduce (fn [a b] (str a " " b)) ["a" "b" "c"])
16:42	clojurebot	"a b c"
16:42	nteon	hugod: yours is better :)
16:48	stacktracer	is there a way to allow a lambda to be called with more args than it uses?
16:48	stacktracer	for example:
16:48	stacktracer	,(#(print %) "Hello, world!")
16:48	clojurebot	Hello, world!
16:48	stacktracer	,(#(print "Goodbye") "Hello, world!")
16:48	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--5579$fn
16:49	stacktracer	can I make the second one work without doing (fn [_] ...) ?
16:49	hiredman	,(#(do %& (print :a)) :b :c :d)
16:50	clojurebot	:a
16:50	hiredman	in short, no
16:50	stacktracer	okey dokey -- thanks hiredman
17:07	etate	OMFG FINALLY... ogre4j starting to work :)
17:39	rem7	is there a way to set the repl to print really big numbers not truncated?
17:45	remleduff	How can I tell if elpa has successfully downloaded swank-clojure and if it's active correctly after restarting?
17:46	hiredman	M-x slime
17:46	remleduff	That says, "[No match]"
17:47	remleduff	I have this in my Messages though: File mode specification error: (file-error "Cannot open load file" "swank-clojure-autoload")
17:58	remleduff	Any ideas how I get past: swank-clojure.el:48:1:Error: Cannot open load file: swank-clojure-autoload when trying to M-x package-install swank-clojure ?
18:06	remleduff	Any ideas why "M-x slime" doesn't do anything at all? :\|
19:05	miltondsilva	about memoize, kotarak and cgrand have posted some very nice aditions to it but, shouldn't the caching be done on the JVM side? Souldn't high-level languages abstract you from memory managment? What am I missing?
19:11	nteon	is there a way to specify a method signature for a static method/function on a gen-class namespace?
19:16	Chousuke	miltondsilva: memoize is not memory management, it's a caching "decorator" for functions
19:26	slyphon	so, what's the idiomatic way to throw exceptions in your code? I'm used to defining a root exception for my project and subclassing that, but that seems like it would be very cumbersome in clojure
19:27	hiredman	(throw (RuntimeException. "blah blah stuff happened"))
19:27	slyphon	so just use RuntimeException?
19:28	hiredman	or don't throw exceptions
19:28	hiredman	clojurebot: exceptions?
19:28	slyphon	hrm
19:28	clojurebot	http://paste.lisp.org/display/74305
19:28	hiredman	you could just pick one
19:28	slyphon	ok
19:29	slyphon	rhickey: is the "ants" demo and talk a good place to learn about how to structure code to take advantage of STM?
19:30	slyphon	i'm starting to work on a video encoding task management engine in clojure, and i'm a little confused at what level i should be using ref/atom/agent
19:30	rhickey	slyphon: It's a good start, but all situations are different, so not a fixed model
19:32	rhickey	slyphon: try to find the 'identities' in your problem space - these should get the refs in the first cut at a model. e.g. if a person was an entity in your domain, his arm wouldn't be an identity
19:32	slyphon	THANKS, SPRINT!
19:32	rhickey	slyphon: try to find the 'identities' in your problem space - these should get the refs in the first cut at a model. e.g. if a person was an entity in your domain, his arm wouldn't be an identity
19:32	rhickey	have you read http://clojure.org/state ?
19:34	slyphon	i'm sort of modeling an RDBMS row as a struct-map, and it seems that the row will have columns that are immutable and others that are mutable, the mutable ones seem to me to be a natural fit with refs
19:35	slyphon	"If this struct was a part of an index of this collection of structs, i wouldn't want to have to change the whole collection just because i'm going to update blah on this 'row'"
19:35	slyphon	rhickey: i'll just read that page again
19:36	hiredman	how big are your rows?
19:36	miltondsilva	Chousuke: the problem is, I'm now at a point where I need to memoize a great number of functions in order to optimize my program. so shouldn't this be done automatically?
19:36	hiredman	bleh
19:36	hiredman	that is not the question
19:36	slyphon	hiredman: about 17 cols
19:37	hiredman	how often will you mutate multiple columns in a row?
19:37	slyphon	fairly often
19:37	hiredman	hmm
19:38	slyphon	it's keeping track of the state of an encoding job as it gets taken by an encoder and processed
19:38	slyphon	including progress updates, timestamps to indicate how long it's been running for, how long it waited to get picked up, etc.
19:38	slyphon	right now we have it in a mysql db, but it's causing all sorts of issues, because using the db as a queue is "doing it wrong"
19:39	slyphon	gah, he're my train stop
19:39	slyphon	i'll bbialb
19:45	rhickey	what's the current Clojure textmate bundle?
19:47	rhickey	this http://github.com/nullstyle/clojure-tmbundle looks pretty old
19:53	Chousuke	miltondsilva: you can't automatically memoize functions
19:53	Chousuke	miltondsilva: it only works for pure ones
19:55	miltondsilva	Chousuke: I know.... but being lazy as I am, I was hoping there was a switch called memoize-all-pure-fns
19:55	Chousuke	well, you can write a small wrapper macro that defines and memoizes a function
19:56	miltondsilva	Chousuke: if not that than something like defn-memoized
19:58	miltondsilva	I could if I knew how to write macros... ah well guess this is a good time to learn ;)
20:01	Chousuke	start with writing out the code you want manually
20:01	Chousuke	then write a function that produces that code. ie. a list.
20:01	Chousuke	then change defn to defmacro :P
20:03	miltondsilva	thanks but as I said I'm lazy and I'm also lucky contrib has a defn-memo ^^
20:03	Chousuke	heh
20:14	nathanmarz	any tips on writing unit tests for code that uses agents?
20:14	nathanmarz	"lein test" just hangs when the tests finish
20:14	krumholt_	how can i predict how many elements of a lazy-seq will be realised? for example i don't want the following to fail
20:14	krumholt_	,(first (lazy-seq [(/ 1 2) (/ 1 2) (/ 1 0)]))
20:14	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
20:18	tomoj	krumholt_: I don't think it works that way
20:19	tomoj	,(first (lazy-seq (cons (/ 1 2) (lazy-seq (cons (/ 1 0) nil)))))
20:19	clojurebot	1/2
20:20	tomoj	,(lazy-seq (cons (/ 1 2) (lazy-seq (cons (/ 1 0) nil))))
20:20	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
20:20	tomoj	,(doc lazy-seq)
20:20	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls."
20:21	tomoj	your body is that vector, so your call to lazy-seq returns a LazySeq which, when realized, evaluates that vector
20:21	tomoj	evaluating that vector causes the divide by zero error
20:21	krumholt_	tomoj, ok
20:21	tomoj	to get lazy-seqs you would normally use the seq library
20:22	krumholt_	is that from contrib or in clojure.core?
20:22	tomoj	well, it's not a specific library really
20:22	tomoj	lots in core, some stuff in contrib
20:22	tomoj	just in general functions which return lazy seqs
20:23	tomoj	e.g.
20:23	tomoj	,(map / (reverse (range 1 5)))
20:23	clojurebot	(1/4 1/3 1/2 1)
20:23	tomoj	that's lazy
20:23	tomoj	so this blows up
20:23	tomoj	,(map / (reverse (range 5)))
20:23	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
20:23	tomoj	,(first (map / (reverse (range 5))))
20:23	clojurebot	1/4
20:24	tomoj	but that works
20:24	krumholt_	ok
20:24	tomoj	if you need to build a lazy-seq manually using the `lazy-seq` function, the pattern I've seen most is (lazy-seq (cons ... ...))
20:25	tomoj	or sometimes lazy-cat
20:26	krumholt_	tomoj, ok i thought that (lazy-seq [1 2 3]) would do that
20:27	tomoj	no, vectors aren't lazy, so
20:27	krumholt_	tomoj, ah ok i understand
20:27	krumholt_	thanks
20:27	krumholt_	,(seq? [1 2 3])
20:27	clojurebot	false
20:27	tomoj	if you've already got [1 2 3] no reason to turn it into a lazy seq
20:27	tomoj	on the other hand, you might have a macro which reads a vector and lazily evaluates its members... but that seems strange
20:28	tomoj	,(doc macrolet)
20:28	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:29	tomoj	,(require '[clojure.contrib.macro-utils :as macro-utils])
20:29	clojurebot	nil
20:33	krumholt_	i think it is because of chunked sequences
20:36	tomoj	chunking can cause problems, yes
20:36	tomoj	are you doing side-effects?
20:37	tomoj	,(take 5 (map #(do (println %) %) (range 10)))
20:37	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
20:38	tomoj	well, it prints out 0-10 as well
20:38	krumholt_	tomoj, no side effects
20:39	krumholt_	just calculations that might fail
20:39	tomoj	ah
20:39	krumholt_	but if they do i don't want that to happen before it's there turn to execute
20:39	Licenser	harr harr harr
20:40	tomoj	krumholt_: are you using `take` to grab some results off the seq of calculations?
20:40	krumholt_	no just first
20:40	tomoj	ah, same problem there
20:40	tomoj	,(first (map #(do (println %) %) (range 10)))
20:40	clojurebot	0
20:40	clojurebot	0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
20:40	krumholt_	,(first (lazy-seq (cons (/ 1 2) (cons (/ 3 4) (cons (/ 1 0) (cons (- 1 2) nil))))))
20:40	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
20:41	tomoj	you need more lazy-seqs :)
20:41	krumholt_	i think it is because of chunks but its not that bad
20:42	krumholt_	i'll wrap the statements in delays
20:52	tomoj	,(macro-utils/macrolet [(lazy-vec [v] (when (seq v) `(lazy-seq (cons ~(first v) (lazy-vec ~(next v))))))] (first (lazy-vec [(/ 2) (/ 1) (/ 0)])))
20:52	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: sandbox/lazy-vec
20:52	hiredman	uh
20:53	hiredman	krumholt_: lazy-seq does not reach into cons and make it lazy
20:53	hiredman	your lazy-seq there returns a strict list
20:53	tomoj	lazy-vec doesn't :)
20:53	tomoj	but, I have no idea why you'd want lazy-vec, really
20:53	hiredman	lazy-seq basicly makes a thunk
20:53	hiredman	that has nothing to do with chucnks
20:54	pdk	if you did (lazy-seq (cons (...))) then it would have to evaluate the cons before it could pass it as an argument to lazy-seq
20:54	remleduff	Wow, rebooting fixed swank!
20:54	remleduff	Does anyone know the magic to make [] work with paredit?
20:54	hiredman	pdk: lazy-seq is a macro, so that is not true
20:55	tomoj	remleduff: https://gist.github.com/15c936da860edf2fa016
20:55	tomoj	remleduff: you probably don't need all of that
20:55	remleduff	Hehe, thanks tomoj :)
20:56	tomoj	oh, also
20:56	tomoj	you should be using paredit-beta.el
20:56	krumholt_	hiredman, i thought lazy-seq qould take my seq and make it lazy
20:56	tomoj	http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit-beta.el
20:56	tomoj	vectors aren't seqs
20:57	tomoj	lazy-seq doesn't really do that for seqs either
20:57	hiredman	krumholt_: you don't have a seq, you have a list
20:57	krumholt_	(seq? (list 1 2 3))
20:57	krumholt_	,(seq? (list 1 2 3))
20:57	clojurebot	true
20:58	hiredman	ok, you don't have a list, you have a function call that returns a non-lazy list
20:58	tomoj	,(first (lazy-seq (list 1 2 (/ 0))))
20:58	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
20:58	tomoj	the list is a seq, yes, but lazy-seq can't just magically make it a lazy seq
20:58	hiredman	,(first (lazy-seq 1 (lazy-seq (/ 0))))
20:58	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
20:58	tomoj	lazy-seq just lazily evaluates its body, which in my example is (list 1 2 (/ 0))
20:58	tomoj	evaluating that throws an error
20:58	hiredman	,(first (lazy-seq (cons 1 (lazy-seq (/ 0)))))
20:58	clojurebot	1
20:59	tomoj	yeah, need a string of lazy-seqs if you're doing this manually
20:59	hiredman	if you look at the definition for lazy seq producing functions they are recursive
20:59	krumholt_	ok i think i get it
20:59	krumholt_	thanks all
21:00	tomoj	though my lazy-vec above is an attempt to evaluate a vector lazily through a macro
21:00	tomoj	so (first (lazy-vec [(/ 1) (/ 0)])) returns 1
21:00	etate	man i just made the best color-theme evar
21:01	hiredman	,(letfn [(map’ [f [x & xs]] (when x (lazy-seq (cons (f x) (map’ f xs)))))] (map’ inc (range 3)))
21:01	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
21:01	tomoj	etate: are you sharing?
21:01	etate	tomoj: sure if you want it
21:01	tomoj	I made my own too but don't really like it
21:01	etate	tomoj: i just spent the last 40 mins making this one :)
21:02	etate	tomoj: the region highlighting kind of sucks but i'll paste it
21:02	tomoj	thanks
21:03	etate	http://gist.github.com/331038
21:03	etate	tomoj: let me know what you think
21:05	tomoj	etate: looks pretty nice
21:05	tomoj	didn't cover everything mine did so remnants are left :(
21:05	etate	tomoj: yeah its not complete yet :)
21:06	tomoj	I think some of the near-whites are too bright for me, but I like your basic idea better than my weird combination of a bunch of colors that don't go together
21:07	etate	tomoj: as in the strings or functions?
21:08	etate	tomoj: i think you're right though there are some subtle inconsistencies... i'll continue hacking it :)
21:08	tomoj	just in general the colors are too similar to me
21:08	tomoj	I look like http://tomojack.com/stuff/sshots/color.png
21:09	etate	tomoj: thats not my theme, thats yours?
21:10	tomoj	yeah
21:10	tomoj	comparatively I have lots of different colors
21:11	etate	tomoj: yeah i think too many colours makes it look inconsistent personally
21:11	tomoj	yeah, I didn't like picking them and am not satisfied
21:11	etate	tomoj: i try and choose a palette and go for pastel colours
21:13	tomoj	next time maybe I'll try using a palette, good idea
21:15	etate	tomoj: :) i'm just hacking mine now i'll paste the next version :D
21:16	hiredman	tomoj: have you tried rainbox parens?
21:17	hiredman	rainbow
21:26	remleduff	What's the "correct" way to turn on paredit mode now actually? I'm a little confused with all the seemingly different documentation
21:30	etate	remleduff: either M-x paredit-mode, or set it in .emacs
21:32	etate	remleduff: to set it in .emacs you use (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/paredit/"), then (autoload 'paredit-mode "paredit") .. then add hooks to your modes so: (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook (lambda () (paredit-mode +1)))
21:33	etate	tomoj: got a new version which is much more colourful
21:33	remleduff	estate: OK, I'm trying to stick to ELPA as much as possible and thought I was doing too much manually
21:34	etate	remleduff: o, i can't really comment since i don't know how ELPA works
21:34	etate	tomoj: http://gist.github.com/331058
21:39	etate	is there a clojure-indent ?
21:45	tomoj	hiredman: I haven't
21:57	psykotic	remleduff: with ELPA, you don't need to worry about adding it to the path or autloading, but you still need to activate it where appropriate, either manually or with mode hooks
22:06	remleduff	psykotic: Thanks, I think I understand
22:07	psykotic	(autoloading is 'lazy loading'. it creates a stub function that loads the .el file the first time it is called)
22:08	remleduff	What I have now is: (require 'paredit) (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook (lambda () (paredit-mode +1))) and then the magic to make [] and {} work as well
22:10	remleduff	Where is swank-clojure.jar supposed to come from? I've been searching clojars for something to add to project.clj but am I missing something?
22:11	psykotic	you don't need to require it
22:11	psykotic	elpa adds autoloads and things like that for you automatically
22:13	remleduff	Hmm, if I didn't require it, I get errors when I try to do: (define-key paredit-mode-map (kbd "M-[") 'paredit-wrap-square)
22:14	psykotic	ah yeah. for defining keys you need more than the autload
22:14	hiredman	tomoj: there is a rainbow-paren-mode that colors parens based on nesting depth
22:14	psykotic	the usual way people do that is add a hook to paredit-mode itself
22:14	hiredman	it's very colorful
22:14	psykotic	ie they have a lambda which on load of paredit fixes up the mode map
22:15	psykotic	that way it's deferred, and by the time the lambda body executes, it will actually have been loaded, and variables like paredit-mode-map, etc, will exist
22:16	psykotic	look at this guy's .emacs: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/developers-handbook/emacs.html
22:17	psykotic	particular the my-lisp-mode-hook
22:17	psykotic	do something similar for paredit
22:17	psykotic	then you don't need the require and the autoload will do
22:20	slyphon	hrm
22:21	slyphon	it'd be interesting if you could coordinate updates between STM and say, an RDBMS
22:21	remleduff	Isn't C-k supposed to do something, even though I'm in paredit mode?
22:21	slyphon	yeah, it kills the sexp, without destroying the delicate balance of sexps
22:22	slyphon	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet
22:22	slyphon	"paredit-kill"
22:22	remleduff	I typed: (defun awesome-p () t)
22:22	kwertii	Is there a Clojure time/date library, or some other way to avoid using the obscene GregorianCalendar stuff from Java?
22:22	remleduff	I put the point after the paren, and hit C-k
22:22	psykotic	kwertii: i think a lot of people using jota
22:22	slyphon	after which paren?
22:22	remleduff	But it deleted the following line, I thought it was supposed to delete the sexp
22:22	remleduff	I can't get it to delete any sexps :)
22:23	kwertii	psykotic: Joda?
22:23	kwertii	psykotic: cool, thanks
22:24	psykotic	kwertii: yes, sorry, all this java stuff is new to me
22:24	kwertii	psykotic: found it, looks good
22:24	remleduff	psykotic, after either paren, for the first (), it does nothing. At the end of the line, it deletes the following newline
22:25	remleduff	Hmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding the tutorial I'm reading
22:26	psykotic	if it behaves differently than normal C-k, then it's working :)
22:28	psykotic	always read the docs. it's pretty explicit about what happens. C-h k C-k
22:29	psykotic	basically, if you've got a sexp spread over multiple lines, then C-k doesn't gobble up everything in one go, it acts like normal C-k
22:29	psykotic	if you want to kill the whole multi-line sexp, i think you need to put the cursor on the opening bracket
22:46	remleduff	Any idea why M-x swank-clojure-project might just sit there polling slime.5548 forever?
22:46	icey	remleduff: that's happened to me before when my swank server didn't start properly
22:46	somnium	remleduff: probably no swank-clojure.jar in ./lib, but check inferior-lisp for more info
22:47	icey	i'm trying to think back to what caused it, but i think i was missing something on my classpath
22:47	remleduff	somnium: I'm pretty sure that's my problem, but where do I get swank-clojure.jar?
22:47	somnium	remleduff: [swank-clojure "1.1.0"]
22:48	remleduff	Great, I've been searching for that for a while, thanks. swank-clojure doesn't come up if you search on clojars
22:51	somnium	hmm, swank alone gets a hit. but yeah, thats a bit confusing
22:51	remleduff	Yay, it worked!
22:56	psykotic	you're launching with lein swank, right?
22:57	remleduff	No, M-x swank-clojure-project for the moment
22:57	psykotic	ah right
22:59	remleduff	Is the completion style when I hit <TAB> configurable when there are multiple matches?
22:59	remleduff	I'd rather get something like ido instead of a big buffer listing all the completions available
23:01	hiredman	there is something called autocomplete which will popup a sort of overlay for completions
23:02	psykotic	hiredman: with slime?
23:04	psykotic	ah this, http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoComplete
23:04	remleduff	Do you know if slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol will work?
23:04	psykotic	iirc slime's fuzzy complete is not done in emacs but host-side
23:04	psykotic	but someone reimeplemtned the algorithm in emacs separately, so you could probably hook that in
23:06	remleduff	There seems to be something called "company-mode" in ELPA, I'll see if that will work
23:06	remleduff	"company = complete anything". It also is rough to google for
23:08	psykotic	if you don't know any emacs lisp, hooking these things up to slime might not be that easy
23:09	somnium	auto-complete rocks -- typing more than 3 chars feels like a chore
23:12	psykotic	it's pretty crazy that it uses overlays, haha
23:12	psykotic	i guess it creates one for each row of the completion box
23:13	psykotic	and presumably it has to temporarily pad lines with spaces if the box extends beyond some given line's contents, etc
23:16	remleduff	Is autoinstall something that existed pre-ELPA, or some competitor or... ?
23:16	psykotic	preeexisted
23:16	psykotic	actually, it might not, now that i think about it
23:17	remleduff	I feel like I'm asking too much emacs stuff here, sorry people who want to hear about clojure
23:18	kwertii	can you set JVM command-line arguments in Leiningen (to enable remote debugging)?
23:18	somnium	emacs digressions are fairly common in this channel
23:18	tomoj	kwertii: for what, lein-swank?
23:18	tomoj	I mean, how are you starting the jvm?
23:18	tomoj	guess it doesn't matter, I don't know the answer :(
23:19	kwertii	tomoj: yeah, or anything, really. I'm starting with lein swank, but I imagine it would be the same for lein repl or whatever
23:23	kwertii	Not what I had in mind, but you can set the JAVA_OPTS env variable to affect the JVM launched by Leiningen...
23:23	psykotic	there's something called eval-in-project
23:24	psykotic	it takes a handler arg that's called on the java task before execution, and it can set jvm args
23:25	psykotic	but there don't appear to be hooks for the existing eval-in-project uses
23:26	psykotic	kwertii: is that a general java thing?
23:26	kwertii	psykotic: yep, at least with the Sun JVM
23:26	psykotic	oh, i see, it's in the lein shell script
23:27	remleduff	The only thing I see is the JAVA_OPTS environment variable
23:27	kwertii	ahh, so it is
23:27	remleduff	I wonder why lein-repl is implemented in the shell script rather than using eval-in-project
23:28	psykotic	it would be nice if eval-in-project used some special-vars for jvm args, etc
23:28	psykotic	the current handler approach is nice if you are in control of the eval-in-project invocation, but it doesn't help you much if you want to alter existing eval-in-project uses elsewhere
23:30	psykotic	remleduff: i avoid using lein repl, it doesn't seem to work very well
23:31	remleduff	Yeah, the current way it's implemented means it gets leiningen's classpath rather than the project's
23:32	remleduff	Well, that's oversimplifying, it adds everything in lib as well
23:33	remleduff	So I guess it's basically the project's classpath
23:39	Mec	What font do you guys like best for code?
23:39	arbscht	inconsolata
23:42	Apage43	I am pretty partial to Inconsolata
23:43	Apage43	use Consolas at work though, next best since it ships with office 07.
23:43	Mec	I dont think i have that one
23:44	hiredman	I prefer Consolas to Inconsolata, but mostly use DejaVu Sans Mono because it has the best unicode coverage
23:45	Mec	i do have that one
23:52	Mec	hey lookie there, emacsW32 where have you been all my life
23:58	remleduff	somnium: Now that I have autocomplete installed, how do I get it to work with clojure?
23:59	psykotic	consolas looks like garbage with a non-windows font renderer
23:59	psykotic	monaco looks good on a mac, imo
23:59	icey	psykotic: yeah i use monaco and like it