#clojure – 2010-02-26

2010-02-26

00:00	brandonw	ok konr that sounds more what i was thinking
00:01	jcromartie	any experience with the various http clients?
00:01	jcromartie	I am just using it for automated testing so it doesn't have to be a superstar lib
00:01	jcromartie	just work!
00:02	konr	yes, the non-apache one doesn't allow sending files together with other data (multidata (or multipart, or something like that) encoding)
00:03	brandonw	konr: i like the idea of not worrying about updating git all the time. plus, relying on clojars would allow easier setting of different versions of clojure on different projects
00:03	brandonw	my only question now is, what do you specify in project.clj to get the latest snapshot of clojure & clojure.contrib?
00:04	jcromartie	brandonw: you have to pick your versions by hand
00:04	jcromartie	that's good for project stability
00:04	brandonw	right
00:04	brandonw	i have org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT" and org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"
00:05	brandonw	but it has an error when trying to download contrib from clojars
00:05	brandonw	seems to work okay from central, clojure, and clojure-snapshots, but clojars throws an error and lein deps seems to fail
00:09	brandonw	i can't even find clojure or clojure.contrib on clojars
00:10	_ato	snapshot releases of clojure aren't on clojars
00:10	konr	hmmm, that's strange, it's 1.2.0 is also failing here
00:11	_ato	and real releases aren't either, although there's a redirect to build.clojure.org
00:11	brandonw	but lein deps is failing when it can't find it on clojars
00:12	_ato	odd
00:12	_ato	can you pastebin the error?
00:14	brandonw	hmm
00:14	brandonw	for some reason, lein deps > output doesn't seem to be writing all of the output to the file
00:16	_ato	try: lein deps &> output
00:16	_ato	it's probably writing some of the outout to stderr
00:16	_ato	or: lein deps 2>&1 > output if you have an old shell and &> doens't work
00:18	brandonw	thanks, i was wondering what you had to change about the redirect to allow it to capture output from other streams
00:19	brandonw	http://pastie.org/843705
00:24	brandonw	here is my project.clj in case you need that, too: http://pastie.org/843711
00:25	_ato	hmm
00:26	_ato	you'll need to use 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT as the version
00:26	_ato	http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure/
00:27	jcromartie	have I been using compojure all wrong by doing things like (defroutes foo (GET "/foo/" some-fn))
00:27	jcromartie	where some-fn is just the name of a fn
00:27	jcromartie	i.e. a defn
00:28	brandonw	awesome _ato that did it!
00:28	brandonw	i recall in my git checkout it had master in its name, but i wasn't sure if that carried over to lein or not
00:28	_ato	don't you ned (defroutes foo (GET "/foo/" (some-fn))) ?
00:28	_ato	but yeah just calling a function is pretty normal
00:29	tomoj	just passing a function works
00:29	tomoj	I guess compojure knows enough to call it
00:30	tomoj	if you just pass a function it gets called with the request as a parameter
00:33	brandonw	okay i think that is enough learning for tonight. i have to figure out how to get lein nailgun to work with vimclojure tomorrow. then i can finally start coding again :)
00:33	brandonw	thanks for the help again, _ato
00:34	_ato	oh right
00:34	_ato	when you return a function it'll call it
00:39	jcromartie	so congomongo doesn't support sorting
00:39	jcromartie	?
00:42	mabes	Can any one explain to me why clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source has to resort to looking up the source in the actual source file?
00:42	mabes	I'm a lisp noob but I thought one of the benefits of being homoiconic was that your functions were just data so it should be easy to view them without digging up the source file
00:43	gregh	the source is still compiled (to bytecode)
00:52	mabes	so, when I create a function in the repl it is automatically compiled to bytecode?
00:52	crowbar7	mabes: you are sort of right. the functions are just objects which means you don't have a type decloration.
00:52	crowbar7	that is a big thing with lisp
00:52	tomoj	jcromartie: I was wondering that earlier as well
00:52	tomoj	seems not
00:52	crowbar7	the source file is irrelivent in reguards to that.
00:53	crowbar7	I have no clue
00:53	crowbar7	I'm new to clojure as off a week ago.
00:56	tomoj	I don't think being able to see the source code for a function is a big benefit of code-as-data
00:56	tomoj	though it wouldn't be hard to do in a lisp
00:57	gregh	macros are the usual tools used to inspect and modify source as written by the programmer, before compilation happens
00:59	tomoj	I don't think most common lisps keep function source code around, do they?
01:01	tomoj	defn could put the source in metadata, but that would just be more memory used up
01:01	tomoj	and not really usefully so
01:03	mabes	yeah, I was running into some cases when I thought it would be useful to look at the code of a function... I can't remember what it was though :)
01:04	tomoj	I was thinking that the only functions you would really need to peek at the source of would be in source files
01:04	tomoj	you mean you had an exception?
01:08	mabes	the repl is a clear exception to that.. if you defined a function at the start of a repl session a long time ago and wanted to see the source you can't unless your screen's buffer has it. Not really an issue of course, but it made me wonder
01:09	tomoj	yeah
01:09	tomoj	good repls should be able to handle it, though :)
01:13	tomoj	it would be cool to be able to see the source of anonymous functions
01:14	tomoj	when I tried a clojure monad tutorial I kept getting back fns without any idea what they did
01:17	mabes	yeah, that is another good example.. again, not really needed in a production setting but nice for development/debugging
02:57	LauJensen	Morning crew
03:02	G0SUB	hello, the clojure lib coding standards says -- "Unroll optional named arguments. Callers should not have to wrap optional named arguments in a map literal"
03:02	G0SUB	(release-sharks 2 :laser-beams true) ; good (release-sharks 2 {:laser-beams true}) ; bad
03:02	G0SUB	what's the best way to achieve this?
03:03	G0SUB	I don't want to use c.c.def/defnk
03:03	G0SUB	is there any other lightweight way to do this?
03:11	LauJensen	(defn release-sharps [some-int & the-rest] ...
03:11	LauJensen	(dont ask me what a sharp is)
03:12	G0SUB	LauJensen, OK, so the-rest will have the key/val pairs. how do I handle default args? using :or ?
03:13	LauJensen	the-rest will be regular data, so partition, destructure, condp it, whatever you like
03:13	G0SUB	LauJensen, makes sense.
03:14	G0SUB	LauJensen, btw, can you shed some insight on the new ``cells'' thing that's coming up?
03:14	LauJensen	Its still dark to me - Its somekind of synchronized mutable datatype, which can replace transients and has some built-in locking, but I'm still waiting for the first docs/examples
03:16	G0SUB	LauJensen, examples are here http://gist.github.com/306174
03:16	G0SUB	LauJensen, but I didn't understand it much.
03:18	LauJensen	wow
03:18	LauJensen	Looks like the first implementation of Clojures datatypes in Clojure - I remember someone mentioning that these are cheaper in allocation than what we have now, therefor faster
03:20	G0SUB	LauJensen, yeah, so effectively, these things are faster than the ones written in Java. Rich Hickey is a magician.
03:22	LauJensen	He's an engineer, but I'd like to drink what he's drinking :) It is pretty amazing what he's doing
03:22	G0SUB	LauJensen +1
03:31	spariev	LauJensen: so, you're switching to tea :?
03:31	jcromartie	how can I get the name of a var?
03:31	jcromartie	I have the var itself
03:32	LauJensen	hehe - spariev Its been quite some time since I started drinking tea, and its nice, seems more healthy than coffee.... Its just.. Some countries have the notion of the "macho man", but in Denmark I think that term is non-seperable from the notion of "man", thus drinking tea isn't entirely acceptable :)
03:32	jcromartie	or something no
03:32	G0SUB	jcromartie, (:name (meta #'var))
03:32	jcromartie	#<core$str__4340 clojure.core$str__4340@7a29120>
03:32	jcromartie	ah
03:33	jcromartie	hmm, meta is nil
03:33	jcromartie	I guess I have a fn value
03:33	jcromartie	nevermind
03:33	jcromartie	I can't work around that can I
03:33	G0SUB	no idea.
03:36	spariev	LauJensen: yep, tea isn't generally considered as a macho drink :) still, if rhickey does it, it must be good :)
03:36	LauJensen	hehe - so what if he starts smoking? :) Mimic Rich in Code
04:19	gstratton	I spent a while getting Clojure to interact with a Java library because I'm failing to understand how to get primitives from Clojure.
04:20	gstratton	,(. (double 3) getClass)
04:20	clojurebot	java.lang.Double
04:23	spariev	shouldn't java autoboxing take care of that ?
04:25	gstratton	I think that's what's confusing me. I needed to pass an array of doubles; I tried this:
04:25	gstratton	,(into-array [(double 1) 2.0 3.0])
04:25	clojurebot	#<Double[] [Ljava.lang.Double;@24cc23>
04:26	gstratton	I assumed it would return an array of primitive doubles
04:27	hiredman	vectors are Collections
04:28	hiredman	Collections cannot hold primitives
04:28	hiredman	,(into-array Doube/Type [1 2 3])
04:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: Doube
04:28	hiredman	,(into-array Double/Type [1 2 3])
04:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to find static field: Type in class java.lang.Double
04:28	hiredman	,(into-array Double/TYPE [1 2 3])
04:28	clojurebot	#<double[] [D@d1a587>
04:28	hiredman	bleh
04:29	gstratton	hiredman: Got you, I think. So as soon as I try to create the collection with the primitive double it's boxed
04:30	hiredman	right
04:31	gstratton	Thanks very much
04:38	scottj	Anyone use paredit in slime-repl? Does deleting [ in [] delete the ] also? Mine does in clojure-mode, but not in slime repl
04:42	Chousuke	scottj: you need some special configuration to fix it
04:45	Chousuke	scottj: http://github.com/Chousuke/emacs.d/blob/master/init-clojure.el basically, the add-hook call at the end there is what you need. Note though that the hook must be run after paredit has been enabled for the repl buffer.
04:56	scottj	Chousuke: thanks. looks like you did this pretty recently :)
05:10	scottj	Chousuke: I see you use ido and ido-use-filename-at-point. Is there a way to tell ido not to use filename at point just this once? I always have to move my cursor off something that looks like a filename when I don't want that behavior
05:29	Chousuke	scottj: no clue :/
05:31	maxhodak	map is not cooperating at all. this is extremely confusing
05:31	maxhodak	basically (map) does nothing for any map, seq, vec, whatever i pass it
05:31	maxhodak	(map (fn [field] (prn field)) my-data)
05:32	maxhodak	where my-data is a valid map
05:32	maxhodak	nothing
05:32	Chousuke	map's lazy
05:32	Chousuke	it won't do anything until you need the data
05:32	maxhodak	do i need to wrap my-data in doall?
05:32	Chousuke	which is why you shouldn't use it for side-effects
05:32	Chousuke	no, the map invocation
05:32	maxhodak	no side-effects here
05:32	maxhodak	oh, ok
05:32	maxhodak	i see what you mean
05:32	maxhodak	grr, ok
05:32	Chousuke	you might want to use doseq instead though
05:32	Chousuke	if you have side-effects
05:34	Raynes	(doseq [field my-data] (prn field))
05:36	the-kenny	and if you still want to use map, you can wrap the (map ...) in a (doall ...)
05:42	eevar2	(doc dorun)
05:42	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, does not retain the head and returns nil."
05:43	the-kenny	Okay, dorun is "better" for side-effects, doall is better for forcing the whole seq to be in memory (for solving problems if you for example read lazyly from a socket)
06:08	the-kenny	What's the best way to avoid duplicating stuff like http://gist.github.com/315639 in every function?
06:08	the-kenny	(It's always the same, I want to bind north, south etc.)
06:09	the-kenny	A macro doesn't work, I always get "can't let qualified name ..."
06:15	noidi	the-kenny, move all the defns's inside one let
06:15	noidi	(let [keys ...] (defn ...) (defn ...) (defn ...))
06:16	noidi	or just def them once
06:16	the-kenny	noidi: I think the let-stuff doesn't work, they are bound to other values in each defn
06:16	the-kenny	But I'll try def-ing
06:17	noidi	ah, sorry, I misread your code
06:17	the-kenny	Maybe it was a bit unclear
06:18	noidi	maybe make (a version of) neighbours that returns a map?
06:18	noidi	so instead of a binding to south you'd look up :south from the map
06:19	the-kenny	neighbours returns a map, I bind the values of (neighbours ...) to symbols
06:19	the-kenny	but maybe that's unecessary.. I'll try it without the let-stuff
06:22	Chousuke	the-kenny: you can make a macro that does the letting for you
06:23	the-kenny	Chousuke: Like http://gist.github.com/315645 - Already tried that
06:24	Chousuke	the-kenny: (defmacro bar [map & body] `(let [{:keys ~'[north east south west, north-east north-west, south-east south-west]} ~map] ~@body))
06:24	Chousuke	the-kenny: the trick there is the ~' in front of the vector
06:24	the-kenny	Chousuke: huh, never seen that ~'-thing
06:25	the-kenny	Maybe that's the trick I was searching for :)
06:25	Chousuke	the-kenny: it unquotes a quoted expression, yielding it as-is in the macro
06:25	Chousuke	the-kenny: thus bypassing the namespace qualification of syntax-quote
06:27	Chousuke	the-kenny: usually generating names out of nowhere is bad style, but if you need to do it, you'll have to write that ugly thing :)
06:29	the-kenny	Chousuke: That was the small trick I was searching for, thanks ;)
06:36	powr-toc	Is there a variation of the .. macro that does nil checking after every step in a method chain?
06:46	Chousuke	powr-toc: .?. in contrib
06:47	powr-toc	Chousuke: what namespace is that in/
06:47	powr-toc	?
06:53	Chousuke	powr-toc: not sure. hmm
06:54	Chousuke	(doc .?.)
06:54	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.core/.?.;[[x form] [x form & forms]]; Same as clojure.core/.. but returns nil as soon as the threaded value is nil itself (thus short-circuiting any pending computation). Examples : (.?. \"foo\" .toUpperCase (.substring 1)) returns \"OO\" (.?. nil .toUpperCase (.substring 1)) returns nil "
06:54	Chousuke	there you go.
07:03	powr-toc	cheers
07:31	Raynes	SICP in Clojure. Holy...
07:31	Raynes	That's big.
07:40	ttmrichter	SICP in Clojure? What are you talking about? :-O
07:40	ttmrichter	Oh, never mind.
07:40	ttmrichter	I confused SICP with SISC.
07:40	ttmrichter	Braino.
07:41	maxhodak	how do you do a List<> return type in gen-class?
07:46	bsteuber	SICP in Clojure? Where?
07:50	Raynes	bsteuber: http://sicpinclojure.com/
07:50	bsteuber	nice, thx :)
07:50	Raynes	It's incomplete right now, but when it's finished, it will be big.
08:26	defn	s
08:26	Raynes	t
08:30	chouser	maxhodak: just return a List -- it should work.
08:30	chouser	maxhodak: just return a List -- it should work.
08:32	chouser	rhickey: I tried get KeywordLookupSite to use PKeywordLookup instead of IKeywordLookup, but I think I have a bootstrapping problem.
08:33	chouser	'satisfies?' uses keyword lookups in its definition, so I just get an infinite loop. :-P
09:05	_fogus_	The confusion surrounding contains? directly stems from the JVM as a host. In other words, naming is tough.
09:07	chouser	I would never argue that naming is easy, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think of conj as putting a value "into" a collection, nor that if a value has been put "into" a collection that the collection would then "contain" that value.
09:10	a_strange_guy	maybe the problem could be lessened if clojure had a function that did what people expected of contains?
09:10	chouser	it has a few
09:10	chouser	,(.contains [:a :b :c] :b)
09:10	clojurebot	true
09:10	a_strange_guy	everybody uses (some #{item} coll)
09:11	chouser	yep
09:11	chouser	so that's at least two ways
09:11	a_strange_guy	not really
09:11	a_strange_guy	.contains doesn't work on ISeq's
09:12	_fogus_	understood. the problem stems from a general disparity between what Java does and what Clojure does. The name contains? just highlights that
09:14	a_strange_guy	maybe the problem lies in the disparity between predicates and quasipredicates
09:14	a_strange_guy	'some' can be used as a predicate
09:15	a_strange_guy	but this may feel unintuitive
09:16	cemerick	only if you're used to more difficult ways to do things IMO
09:16	cemerick	e.g. if (foo != null) ...
09:17	a_strange_guy	yes, the difference between false and nil feels stupid if you are used to Common Lisp
09:18	chouser	I don't think there's any problem of functionality. (some #{item} coll) is sufficiently succinct and more hints at the linear scan that will actually happen. 'contains?' does exactly what you frequently want to do on maps and sets.
09:18	cemerick	a_strange_guy: well, I'm not, but python and ruby and a variety of other langs also have very nice nil punning
09:18	a_strange_guy	C does too xD
09:19	_fogus_	chouser: don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that contains? does the wrong thing; only that it seemingly does to people from a certain background
09:19	chouser	If 'contains?' were named 'has-key?', I think most of the confusion would be disappear, though there would still be questions from people who haven't seen the 'some' idiom yet.
09:19	a_strange_guy	I would have called 'some 'any?
09:20	chouser	_fogus_: I agree, and I'm saying that "certain background" probably includes most people who speak english.
09:20	chouser	I put a value in that vactor, when I print the vector I can see it -- why doesn't the vector contain it?
09:20	_fogus_	hmmm, I was a little more narrow in my focus, but maybe you have something there ;)
09:20	cemerick	a_strange_guy: any? implies a boolean return, and would have the same effect in a conditional form as some
09:20	cemerick	but without the extra utility of some
09:21	jcromartie	anybody have any good deployment solutions for compojure projects?
09:21	cemerick	jcromartie: same as every other java web app? :-)
09:21	a_strange_guy	well 'some' returns the return value of the predicate that it was passed
09:21	jcromartie	I have already set up gen-class so that I can say java -cp app.jar app.main db_name port
09:21	jcromartie	cemerick: oh, hmm, I'm not set up for that yet
09:22	a_strange_guy	so it would return a boolean result (most of the time)
09:22	cemerick	jcromartie: do so -- it takes ~10 minutes, and saves so much bother in a variety of ways
09:22	cemerick	jcromartie: are you using maven?
09:23	_fogus_	does the definition of a predicate extend to truthy and falsey?
09:23	jcromartie	cemerick no, lein
09:23	a_strange_guy	cemerick: does a "?" always imply a Boolean return value
09:23	cemerick	a_strange_guy: definitely
09:23	chouser	_fogus_: I don't think so. because everything is truthy or falsey, the word "predicate" would cease to mean anything more than "function"
09:23	cemerick	jcromartie: sorry, can't help you then :-)
09:24	jcromartie	a_strange_guy: there's not-empty, which returns the non-empty thing or nil... note the lack of ?
09:24	_fogus_	chouser: gotcha
09:24	rsynnott	a_strange_guy: You could certainly confuse the hell out of library users by doing otherwise, though :)
09:24	cemerick	jcromartie: in maven, you just define war packaging, and you get a .war file with your bits from WEB-INF etc in the right spot that you can drop into any container
09:25	a_strange_guy	teh CL people kinda managed that
09:25	a_strange_guy	^the
09:25	chouser	I still can't believe not-empty is in core.
09:26	jcromartie	cemerick: maybe I can add a war task to lein
09:26	jcromartie	it does support custom tasks
09:26	a_strange_guy	on the other hand they had multiple return values and no Host that regulary uses nulls
09:26	jcromartie	oh, here we go http://github.com/alienscience/leiningen-war
09:26	jcromartie	facepalm for him
09:26	cemerick	jcromartie: no, just the whole reinvent-the-wheel movement
09:27	jcromartie	oh, you mean lein in general
09:27	cemerick	lein is great all by itself. If you want an extensible build environment, use maven. Otherwise, it's all just wasted cycles, IMO.
09:28	jcromartie	war files aren't hard though
09:28	jcromartie	they're just a jar + web-inf, etc.
09:28	cemerick	I'm hoping this takes flight, and then we can move on: http://polyglot.sonatype.org/clojure.html
09:28	cemerick	jcromartie: no, nothing about individual bits of build processes is hard, the issue is having reimplementations of stuff that is rock solid doesn't make sense.
09:29	jcromartie	OK well, maybe I'll let lein generate my pom and I'll use Maven for web deployment.
09:30	chouser	cemerick: is that the same defproject syntax/structure as lein uses?
09:30	cemerick	chouser: I've no idea. Never used lein myself.
09:31	jcromartie	cemerick: don't knock it till you try it :P
09:31	jcromartie	I was not all for lein at first
09:31	cemerick	jcromartie: it doesn't do a tenth of what I need shrug
09:31	jcromartie	well isn't cemerick fancy :P
09:31	cemerick	feh
09:32	cemerick	just yelling into the wind, per usual :-)
09:32	jcromartie	I don't pride myself on the fact that my deployment consists of rsync, ssh, and a job running under screen.
09:33	chouser	bleh. similar to lein, but not the same. oh well
09:34	chouser	I've not used either, but it's seems inevitable I'll have to get used to living in maven's world somehow or other.
09:34	_fogus_	jcromartie: Add make and you've described the setup we have here. :p
09:34	rhickey_	so, contains? probably isn't used much - is it?
09:34	cemerick	chouser: the point is that it is a pom, not a replacement for it.
09:34	cemerick	s/it/one
09:35	cemerick	chouser: your life will be so much easier once you decide to make the same choices as the rest of us :-D
09:35	chouser	rhickey_: I'd say 'contains?' is used some for maps when you need to know about keys with nil values, and never for vectors. :-)
09:35	_fogus_	rhickey: I rarely (if ever) use it. But it plays a prominent role in the book. :-)
09:35	chouser	cemerick: yes, I know. That's why I use down-the-middle mainstream tools like linux, clojure, vim, ... er, wait...
09:35	jcromartie	yeah contains? always gets me
09:37	chouser	rhickey_: did you happen to see my PKeywordLookup infinite recursion mentioned above? Don't need a solution from you, just thought you'd be interested if it wasn't already obvious to you.
09:37	rhickey_	I'm willing to concede people are confused by contains? when applied to vectors and sequences, but what to do?
09:37	rhickey_	chouser: no, didn't see it
09:38	cemerick	chouser: some old-time grizzled CS/entrepreneurial legend that I can't recall the name of has a saying about how you should choose only one area to innovate and be different and fantastic in -- more than one, and you'll never get out of your way enough to get stuff done.
09:38	rhickey_	heh, satisfies?
09:38	chouser	rhickey_: yes
09:39	chouser	I'm just trying to get a fix hacked in here enough that I can try out my userland code with 'extend' instead of wrapper classes. But I'm not there yet.
09:39	cemerick	chouser: that wasn't directed at your toolchain BTW, your comment just brought it to mind
09:40	chouser	cemerick: It makes sense to me, esp. for a business, and esp. a small business.
09:40	rhickey_	I had other issues with this course after sleeping on it - I don't know that I want IKeywordLookup to be a public promised API. It happens to be the implementation detail of how deftypes work today, but with, say, JSR 292 you would do it completely differently
09:41	chouser	cemerick: but my personal tool choices have less to do with maximizing profit and more to do with minimizing pain.
09:41	rhickey_	chouser: there's a sense in which, why should one expect to be able to extend keyword lookup to arbitrary POJOs? and another in which you say - if that is desired, perhaps best to be directly supported, still hiding the implementation details, i.e. (:some-javabean-property some-pojo) should just work
09:42	chouser	rhickey_: yes, I can see that. My current efforts are more about proof of concept for the app api I'm building. I want to make sure that I'm collecting all the right kinds of information from api users to provide the best possible performance.
09:43	rhickey_	chouser: so I had some questions about what exactly is your use case - are you wrapping fields? getters? arbitrary methods?
09:43	chouser	I suppose I can require the use of a wrapping function that in some cases doesn't actually wrap.
09:43	rhickey_	I didn't read your paste closely
09:44	cemerick	chouser: those objectives should be closely aligned in a sane environment :-)
09:44	_fogus_	,(let [has-key? contains?] (has-key? #{:a 1 :b 2} :a))
09:44	clojurebot	true
09:45	chouser	I'm wrapping google protobuf messages. They have their own sense of fields and setters that does not align exactly with Java POJOs
09:45	rhickey_	I imagine if keyword lookup was extensible then I could imagine people would constantly be wrapping Java just so they could say (:foo x) instead of (.foo x)
09:46	chouser	these messages are logically a sort of immutable multimaps, and I'd like to use them as such.
09:46	rhickey_	chouser: but avoid map-like lookup?
09:46	chouser	I already have a full stack of code using the raw get methods, and am starting to regret it.
09:47	rhickey_	get methods take what as an arg?
09:47	rhickey_	or are they generated getThis getThat?
09:47	chouser	hm, maybe multimap isn't the right word. multi-struct -- predefined keys.
09:48	chouser	rhickey_: generated getThis and getThat. no arg (except for repeated fields)
09:52	rhickey_	chouser: I think this is a really interesting area, but I also think that the current infrastructure wasn't designed for the generic case. Also, your extends is going to run into trouble - there is "instanceof IKeywordLookup" code in KeywordLookupSite
09:53	chouser	yes. it was changing that to 'satisfies?' that caused the infinite recursion.
09:54	chouser	and I've got an ugly fix hacked in for that now, but I think I'm still missing some check somewhere.
09:54	rhickey_	I don't love the use of the interface, as it requires a different class for each field. This is definitely an area where JSR 292's MethodHandles give you code hooks at finer and more lightweight granularity
09:55	rhickey_	but today, classes are the granularity of code in the JVM
09:56	chouser	but it comes to this: if I can be sure that in the not-too-distant future, I can provide high-performance lookup and functioning IPersistentMap methods without requiring app code to call a fn on the message object, I'd like to design the api for that.
09:57	rhickey_	app code being Java code?
09:58	chouser	ah, no. Not much I can do for those poor souls.
09:58	rhickey_	so yo uwant to avoid (get-the x) (get-that x)?
09:58	rhickey_	get-this
09:58	rhickey_	instead (:this x) (:that x)
09:58	chouser	I mean, I will support both Clojure and Java app code, but my hands are a bit tied in trying to improve the java api.
09:59	chouser	well, get-that would have to be generated -- haven't pursued that at all.
09:59	chouser	(:that x) instead of (.getThat x)
09:59	rhickey_	I'm still wondering how you are avoiding the coupling given a message object with (.getThis x), what's better about (get-this x) or (:this x)?
10:00	rhickey_	you want to treat slots as data?
10:00	chouser	not sure what you mean by that.
10:01	rhickey_	what's the answer to my last question?
10:01	rhickey_	er, penultimate question
10:01	chouser	I suppose the real wins come with things like (rename-keys {:foo :bar} obj)
10:02	rhickey_	I don't get it
10:02	chouser	that is ... I have places where I use .getThat, and others where I at runtime walk the (nested) message and produce a regular hash-map for manipulation with rename-keys, select-keys, etc.
10:03	chouser	I'd like to provide a single api with the performance of the first case (when possible) and the flexibility of the second (when needed)
10:05	rhickey_	ok
10:05	rhickey_	so, if IPersistentMap was a protocol?
10:06	rhickey_	still wouldn't give you the direct perf...
10:06	chouser	that'd be perfect.
10:06	chouser	right
10:07	rhickey_	and :java-bean-property support doesn't help?
10:07	rhickey_	getThis is JavaBean naming
10:07	chouser	the direct perf probably isn't a deal breaker, but if I can get better perf wrapping the object and implementing IKeywordLookup, that has consequences on the api I provide.
10:08	rhickey_	chouser: the advantages of persistent map as protocol is no wrapping
10:08	rhickey_	wrapping = bad
10:08	rhickey_	Clojure would be completely different if I thought wrapping = ok
10:09	rhickey_	but, are your getters JavaBean properties?
10:09	chouser	I understand. But if I can get better performance with wrap+IKeywordLookup than I can with nowrap+PPersistentMap, that suggest at least asking users to do (pmap-of msg), whether I actually wrap in the end or not.
10:10	chouser	I think they're JavaBean properties.
10:10	rhickey_	wrapping will eventually hurt you, mark my words
10:10	chouser	more than pouring them into PersistentHashMaps already is?
10:11	rhickey_	in the latter case you plainly have a different thing
10:11	rhickey_	there's always pressure on the wrappers to act as proxies
10:12	rhickey_	but the JavaBean property case could I think be easily and generally be supported in keyword lookup
10:12	rhickey_	iff you allow for runtime code gen
10:12	powr-toc	I've written a mock implementation of rails-like database migrations for use with clojure.contrib.sql... comments appreciated: http://gist.github.com/315787
10:12	chouser	the sort of runtime code gen I'm doing with (eval `(refiy ...)) ?
10:14	chouser	(bean msg) works -- provides access to everything I need I think.
10:14	chouser	of course, that's a wrapper.
10:15	rhickey_	I had some keyword style fields and property access in my older interop stuff (DotLisp, jFli and Foil)
10:16	rhickey_	I'm talking about (:a-javabean-property x) figuring out that x doesn't implement IKeywordLookup but does have .getAJavaBeanProperty and compiles a LookupThunk on the fly
10:16	rhickey_	caching the result, voila - fast lookup
10:17	rhickey_	in that case and the case of PKeywordLookup, you really aren't getting a maplike object
10:18	cemerick	feel free to tell me to muzzle, but is this all to avoid (.getFoo x) in preference of (:foo x)?
10:18	rhickey_	probably doesn't really handle your use case
10:18	rhickey_	cemerick: more like - get map-like objects but don't lose perf of (.foo x) when using (:foo x)
10:19	rhickey_	map-like objects without wrappers is a matter of map functions being built on protocols
10:24	chouser	cemerick: I do feel I've been driven here by real concerns, not just a vague preference.
10:25	rhickey_	chouser: but I feel like map-as-protocol is more what your use case is about
10:26	hugod	is there a general way to get the current source line and file?
10:26	cemerick	chouser: I'm sure -- just thought I'd play the skeptic for a moment.
10:26	chouser	cemerick: it's a good question. Esp. to be directed toward me -- I tend to enjoy this kind of thing too much and might do it when not necessary.
10:26	rhickey_	chouser: so, your work on revitalizing :on might not help with KeywordLookup, it might help with making experimental versions of get et al that work with protocols built :on the existing interfaces
10:28	a_strange_guy	rhickey_: do you plan to make IFn a protocol too?
10:28	a_strange_guy	because this is the promary way that people use maps
10:28	a_strange_guy	eg. (a-map :foo) and (:foo a-map)
10:28	chouser	my "work" on revitalizing :on is an ugly little hack I barely understand. :-)
10:29	rhickey_	heh
10:29	chouser	I currently have to specify both :on and :on-interface, though I don't know why.
10:30	chouser	anyway...
10:31	chouser	I guess to move forward I suppose I can require users interpose a fn call between their message object and their map-like use of it.
10:31	chouser	today it can wrap a reify to implement ILookup and even IKeywordLookup. Someday it may be a no-op.
10:32	rhickey_	chouser: you could easily fix satisfies? to call get
10:32	chouser	the java-bean thing means I suppose I should use the keywords 'bean' provides intead of the ones I was using. that is, for .getAddressId use :addressId and not :address-id
10:32	chouser	rhickey_: yes, I did that.
10:33	chouser	also find-protocol-impl
10:34	chouser	so the inf. recursion is gone, but extending String to PKeywordLookup, (:foo "bar") still doesn't try to install a thunk
10:34	rhickey_	chouser: the thing is, IKeywordLookup doesn't give you a map-like thing at all, I'm confused about why you are there - just to get perf in addition to a map-like wrapper?
10:34	chouser	rhickey_: yes
10:35	rhickey_	chouser: and you've hacked KeywordLookupSite to avoid instanceof IKeywordLookup?
10:35	chouser	I guess if I want to pursue wrapperlessness I need to do PLookup as well.
10:35	chouser	rhickey_: yes
10:36	chouser	(:foo "bar") doesn't get that far though. 'fault' isn't called, and I've been chatting here instead of trying to figure out why.
10:37	chouser	well, I've got KeywordInvokeExpr.emit source open, but I still don't know how to read ASM stuff.
10:44	rhickey_	you've changed all instanceof IKeywordLookup to satisfies?
10:44	rhickey_	in KeywordLookupSite?
10:44	rhickey_	and (satisfies? PKeywordLookup String) == true?
10:46	rhickey_	and you are calling RT.booleanCast on its result?
10:54	rhickey_	basically the default stub KeywordLookupSite should return this from get, resulting in a call to its fault, then install the target
10:55	rhickey_	the ASM says, if get returns the object itself, call fault and return what it returns
11:00	rhickey_	the lookup thunk itself
11:01	brandonw	has anyone used lein nailgun with vimclojure?
11:17	dnolen	there isn't a rotate function in clojure is there? [1 2 3] -> [2 3 1] ?
11:19	chouser	dnolen: I don't think so. I wrote one.
11:19	dnolen	chouser: in contrib?
11:19	chouser	no, unreleased. hang on
11:20	chouser	(defn- rotate [[x & xs :as all]] (when (seq all) (concat xs [x])))
11:29	dnolen	chouser: cool
11:34	chouser	not very efficient
11:35	a_strange_guy	why not?
11:36	a_strange_guy	isn't it a constant-time operation?
11:36	chouser	yes, but the memory-use could probably be better.
11:37	dnolen	chouser: how would you make it more efficient?
11:37	dnolen	I was thinking something like (rotate coll step) would be cool, step could be signed int
11:39	a_strange_guy	as long as you use sequences you'll have to allocate the new sequence
11:39	a_strange_guy	this will be fast when we have cells+iter
11:39	a_strange_guy	s/fast/memory efficient
11:41	chouser	perhaps basing it on something like a finger-tree would be better.
11:41	dnolen	hmm, well i can rotate a 10 item vector 100,000 times in 200ms so it's fast enuf for me :)
11:41	chouser	the definition above was acceptible for my use because the collection will never have more than 3 items and will rarely be rotate more than a couple times.
12:00	esj	If I want to create a function that takes either an element, or a seq of elements, is a multimethod the sensible approach, a la http://gist.github.com/315898 ?
12:01	esj	or would the preferred approach be to define only the non-seq version and then use a reduce in cases of seqs ?
12:01	esj	or is this, as seems likely, just a stupid question ?
12:03	dnolen	hmm is there something like "for" but for side-effects?
12:04	dnolen	i like (for [i (range x) j (range y)] ...)
12:04	dnolen	but I don't want a list comprehension, just side effects
12:04	chouser	dnolen: doseq
12:04	dnolen	chouser: thx
12:24	a_strange_guy	hi,
12:25	a_strange_guy	did anyone (except for rhickey) try to write new sequence functions with cells+iter
12:25	a_strange_guy	I want to try concatx
12:39	esj	in answer to my own question: yes its dumb.
12:42	jasapp	esj: having a function handle single elements, and sequences?
12:43	esj	jasapp: yeah
12:46	jasapp	I usually like to have seperate functions for stuff like that, otherwise I get confused and things break.
12:46	jasapp	I confuse easily. :)
12:49	esj	i hear you.
13:30	alinp	hi guys
13:30	alinp	I have a small issue here please
13:31	alinp	(ns my-ns)
13:31	alinp	(defn test [n] (println n))
13:31	alinp	Caused by: java.lang.Exception: Name conflict, can't def test because namespace: my-ns refers to:#'clojure.core/test
13:32	technomancy	alinp: you either need to exclude clojure.core/test in your ns invocation or pick a non-conflicting name for your function.
13:32	alinp	how can I do that ? It is even possible to create a function with the same name like a core one but in another ns ?
13:32	technomancy	(ns my-ns (:refer-clojure :exclude [test])) ; <= if memory serves me
13:32	alinp	thanks technomancy, but I don't know exactly how to exclude it
13:32	alinp	oh
13:32	alinp	like this ... thanks ;)
13:33	technomancy	alinp: but watch out: now every namespace that refers my-ns will also have to exclude test.
13:33	technomancy	so if you're intending it to be used elsewhere it would be better to pick a different name.
13:33	alinp	mno, I want to use it just locally
13:34	alinp	the thing is that I had this problem for ages, and only now I got the time to ask
13:34	alinp	thank you
13:34	technomancy	sure
13:36	alinp	it will be a problem if I use my namespace from other place, but not use that test function ?
13:36	alinp	or maybe it is possible not to export all functions ?
13:36	alinp	something like erlang's export ?
13:37	technomancy	alinp: defn- will prevent it from being exported.
13:37	alinp	oh, that's for exporting it to java, I think
13:37	alinp	right ?
13:37	alinp	I mean, to export it as a java method
13:38	alinp	I mean, as far as I remember, for exporting it as java main method, should be used something like this: (defn- main ....)
13:40	the-kenny	alinp: (defn -main [arg1 arg2 arg...] ...)
13:40	the-kenny	not (defn- main)
13:40	alinp	oh, thanks the-kenny, that's right
13:46	defn	How do you make the print length smaller in clojure?
13:46	defn	err in the slime repl
13:47	dakrone	(set! print-length 10) ?
13:47	defn	ah yes
13:47	defn	dakrone: do you know how to clear the slime repl?
13:47	dakrone	defn: not an emacs user, sorry
13:47	defn	nvm, C-c Mo
13:47	defn	C-c M-o
13:54	jcromartie	Where does output from Compojure go when running slime?
13:54	jcromartie	I am really getting into the slime/swank setup, but Compojure stack traces don't show up.
13:55	technomancy	jcromartie: maybe inferior-lisp?
13:55	jcromartie	ah that's right!
13:55	jcromartie	that thing
13:55	technomancy	the next swank-clojure release will clear this kind of stuff up
13:55	jcromartie	:)
13:56	technomancy	no promises on a timeline though. =)
13:57	chouser	technomancy promises good and cheap, but not soon.
13:59	defn	how can i take a file-seq and turn it into a structure that i can map across?
13:59	technomancy	defn: why can't you map across a file-seq?
14:00	defn	technomancy: i was making a stupid mistake, sorry
14:05	dnolen	is there a way to efficient repeat a sequence without have to flatten it?
14:05	dnolen	[1 2 3] -> [1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 . . .]
14:05	chouser	,(cycle [1 2 3])
14:05	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:05	dnolen	heh
14:05	chouser	heh
14:06	chouser	,(take 20 (cycle [1 2 3]))
14:06	clojurebot	(1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2)
14:06	dnolen	thx yet again
14:06	chouser	np
14:33	defn	(spit (java.io.File. "blah.txt") (some-function-which-returns-a-lazyseq))
14:33	defn	how do I get the actual entries in that lazyseq to write to the file
14:34	defn	bah I was using (str (some-function...))
14:34	defn	instead of (apply str (some-function...))
14:36	maxhodak	how do you return a List<> type in class generation?
14:37	maxhodak	(:gen-class :methods [...])
14:37	pdk	you know
14:37	maxhodak	methods looks like: [[method_name [int String] ???] ... ]
14:37	pdk	in 2012 we'll have been using C for 40 years
14:37	pdk	any connection to the doomsday prophecies?
14:37	maxhodak	where ??? should be something like List<Long> (but that doesnt work)
14:37	chouser	maxhodak: just List should work
14:37	chouser	hm.
14:38	technomancy	pdk: prophecies might have to wait till we've been using C for 128 years
14:38	technomancy	256 if they're unsigned
14:38	pdk	true
14:38	krumholt_	maxhodak, after compilation generics are gone in java. it's just in the code they don't exist in bytecode
14:38	defn	how do i add a \n at the end of every entry in a list, i was thinking something like (apply #(str % "\n") coll)
14:38	pdk	earth would explode after we hit its -128th anniversary
14:38	pdk	128 BC: Before C
14:39	technomancy	pdk: luckily God wrote in lisp: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/eternal-flame.html
14:39	pdk	though your guess is as good as mine what AD means in this context
14:39	chouser	defn: try map instead of apply
14:39	maxhodak	chouser: that gets me "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.lang.List"
14:39	chouser	technomancy: or maybe not http://xkcd.com/224/
14:39	defn	chouser: thanks
14:39	pdk	what about the god wrote in perl poems though?
14:39	pdk	sounds like holy war time
14:40	chouser	maxhodak: java.util.List ?
14:40	pdk	not to mention we don't know what implementation we're running on, this could bite us just as well: http://jwz.livejournal.com/854482.html
14:40	technomancy	chouser: well, that's a lower-case god.
14:40	technomancy	clearly such a pagan would choose inferior tools
14:41	chouser	technomancy: oh dear, I'd never noticed that.
14:41	defn	what's the function to compose a regex using a variable?
14:41	chouser	defn: that gets really ugly really fast.
14:41	defn	chouser: how do you suggest i compose a regex with a var?
14:42	chouser	,(let [x "bar"] (re-pattern (str #"foo" (java.util.regex.Pattern/quote x) #"baz")))
14:42	clojurebot	#"foo\Qbar\Ebaz"
14:42	defn	chouser: nice. thank you!
14:43	chouser	defn: no, not nice! ugly and horrible ...and sometimes the only reasonable option. :-/
14:44	defn	chouser: what would be nicer in your opinion?
14:45	chouser	a clojure lib that lets you express patterns using s-exprs, but with the full power and succinctness of regex.
14:45	chouser	(ptn "foo" x "baz") or something
14:47	chouser	(ptn (or "abc" "xyz") (repeat 1 "z")) == #"(?:abc\|xyz)z+" ? I dunno.
14:47	chouser	that kinda lost the succinctness, didn't it.
14:47	defn	chouser: heh, it's not bad
14:48	defn	i dont really mind the whol (java.util.regex.Pattern/quote x) stuff, it just needs a helper fn in the str-utils lib
14:48	defn	(re-build #"foo" x #"baz")
14:49	chouser	hm... perhaps.
14:49	technomancy	http://www.prometheus-music.com/audio/eternalflame.mp3 <= audio version
14:49	technomancy	several good chuckles contained therein
14:49	chouser	there are still problems. (re-build #"(foo" x #")bar") will never work, and perhaps that's good.
14:50	defn	couldn't you just quote that and sanitize it before re-pattern takes ahold of it?
14:50	chouser	but if you use strings literals instead of regex literals, you have the normal \ explosion.
14:50	chouser	it's just a mess
14:51	defn	for more complex scenarios yeah i agree -- but for what im doing it's pretty functional (no pun intended) with just the helper function
14:52	chouser	reader macros could get us from 90% to 95% functionality coverage ... :-/
14:52	defn	chouser: any chance of that?
14:52	chouser	no
14:52	defn	or has rich said no go
14:52	chouser	I've got a friend working on a general pattern-matching library for python that would be very interesting to port when it's finished.
14:53	chouser	but still not likely as succinct as regex, and I have no idea about performance.
14:53	defn	performance shmeformance. ;)
14:54	defn	if/when he finishes buzz me -- id be interested in taking a hack at it
14:54	chouser	yeah, you're right. clojure's already too fast.
14:55	defn	nothing is /too/ fast, heh. and in general, i have an idea of what i'm going to get when i start using a lot of pattern matching.
14:55	defn	s/and/but
14:55	somnium	chouser: like haskell/ocaml style pattern-matching? or texty-regexy?
14:56	chouser	hm... neither, I guess. I mean, loser to regexy but not strictly on text.
14:56	chouser	closer
14:57	chouser	I think he's operating on a stream of tokens, so those could be individual characters, or a stream of more meaningful symbols I think.
14:57	somnium	sounds intriguing
14:58	hiredman	you could just use fnparse
15:00	defn	too complicated for me
15:03	hiredman	(rep+ (lit \x))
15:04	hiredman	,(require '[name.choi.joshua.fnparse :as fp])
15:04	clojurebot	nil
15:04	hiredman	(fp/rep+ (fp/lit \x))
15:04	hiredman	,(fp/rep+ (fp/lit \x))
15:04	clojurebot	#<monads$state_t__5239$m_bind_state_t__5248$fn__5249 clojure.contrib.monads$state_t__5239$m_bind_state_t__5248$fn__5249@bff63e>
15:04	hiredman	,((fp/rep+ (fp/lit \x)) {:remaineder (seq "xxxyxxx")}
15:04	clojurebot	EOF while reading
15:04	hiredman	,((fp/rep+ (fp/lit \x)) {:remaineder (seq "xxxyxxx")})
15:04	clojurebot	nil
15:05	hiredman	bleh
15:05	hiredman	,((fp/rep+ (fp/lit \x)) {:remainder (seq "xxxyxxx")})
15:05	clojurebot	[[\x \x \x] {:remainder (\y \x \x \x)}]
15:06	hiredman	,((fp/semantics (fp/rep+ (fp/lit \x)) (comp symbol (partial apply str))){:remainder (seq "xxxyxxx")})
15:06	clojurebot	[xxx {:remainder (\y \x \x \x)}]
15:07	somnium	'haskell in parens' comes to mind
15:11	ordnungswidrig	somnium: haskell in parens sound fun
15:12	somnium	ordnungswidrig: more fun than haskell-out-of-parens?
15:15	ordnungswidrig	yes, because the parens let it appear more simple to understand than it is :-)
15:18	ordnungswidrig	actually the good ting with clojure is that you don't need to enable another extension every other time
15:19	brandonw	if anyone is bored, could you let me know if anything in here is not idiomatic clojure? just so i don't develop any bad habits as i learn-- http://github.com/brandonw/snake-solver/blob/master/src/snake.clj
15:23	ordnungswidrig	brandonw: line 38: (if (or …) false true) -> (not (or …))
15:23	brandonw	ah yes
15:24	defn	hmm why isn't java.io.File/delete a matching method?
15:24	ordnungswidrig	brandonw: even better: (not (or (> a b) (> b c))) (and (< a b) (< b c))
15:24	brandonw	that is something i definitely will enjoy getting used to-- not needing a boolean primitive but just using the result of an expression as a boolean
15:26	somnium	(and (< a b) (< b c)) =~ (< a b c) ?
15:26	ordnungswidrig	brandonw: which is nothing specific to clojure Specific to clojure would be nil? -> false, not nil? -> true
15:26	brandonw	right
15:26	ordnungswidrig	somnium: I see an urgent need for quicktest
15:26	brandonw	but it is specific because clojure is the first language i have used that has that capability
15:27	ordnungswidrig	s/test/check/
15:27	brandonw	either that or i just never even thought to use it
15:27	brandonw	other than that though, it appears okay?
15:27	somnium	:-)
15:28	brandonw	i'm not sure if solve-snake was too complex or not, it seemed like it needed comments inside the function body, and i wasn't sure if that means i should make it more simple somehow or not
15:31	AWizzArd	btw, < takes many args
15:31	AWizzArd	(< a b c)
15:32	somnium	AWizzArd: high-five
15:32	AWizzArd	oh ok, just saw it now :)
15:32	ordnungswidrig	brandonw: take it as a sign that the functions does to much and should be splittet
15:33	brandonw	if it is inside a loop recur, and all the code is doing is determining how to recur, i don't really know how i could clarify it
15:35	defn	,print-length
15:35	clojurebot	nil
15:39	somnium	brandonw: some of the segment transforms could be DRYed up with a map
15:40	somnium	,(let [m { [0 0 1] [0 1 0] [0 1 0] [1 1 0]} ] (m [0 1 0]) )
15:40	clojurebot	[1 1 0]
15:48	brandonw	i don't think there is any repeating in the transform though
15:48	brandonw	i could probably take out the transforms that have the segment and the axis on the same plane, though
15:49	brandonw	instead of having lines in each cond axis, i could have an outer if that checks if the two axes are the same, and returns the segment value if so, then it would only be 12 lines of comparisons
15:52	somnium	brandonw: if axis-map is like {[0 0 1] {[0 0 1] [0 1 0] ...} ...} then (-> axis-map axis segment) removes the cond
15:59	brandonw	ohhh okay
15:59	brandonw	i see what you mean
15:59	brandonw	i have to learn the -> basically :)
15:59	brandonw	the -> operator i mean
16:00	brandonw	s/operator/macro
16:00	somnium	actually my -> is wrong :/ but ((axismap axis) segment) is ok
17:17	duncanm	if I establish a binding using (binding [a 1] (foo)) all function calls made from 'foo' will have a bounded to 1, right?
17:18	chouser	if they stay in the same thread, yes.
17:24	duncanm	what's the difference between merge and conj on Maps?
17:25	duncanm	,(merge {:a 1} {:a 2})
17:25	clojurebot	{:a 2}
17:25	duncanm	,(conj {:a 1} {:a 2})
17:25	clojurebot	{:a 2}
17:25	duncanm	i guess it has to do with the number of arguments?
17:26	ankou	hi, I have a question about clojure-swank: I'm trying to get correct error messages so I first wanted to create a project with clojure-swank., however just using the command doesn't work (it says `Lisp connection closed unexpectedly) and the readme says that I need to have clojure-swank.jar in the /lib path, however I don't know if this is the cause of the error but I don't even know where to find this java archive. I isntalled it with elpa as
17:26	ankou	the readme suggested.
17:29	technomancy	ankou: not sure what you're trying to do. you can't use swank-clojure to create projects.
17:30	technomancy	if you create a project with leiningen, you can add swank-clojure as a dependency and then use M-x swank-clojure-project; is that what you mean?
17:32	Licenser	what is the best practice of NPE hunting in clojure? The Stack traces are sadly often quite unhelpful :(
17:32	ankou	yes, but the readme says that I could also create the project directories manually and I just wanted to try it first. Maybe I should start with leiningen?
17:32	technomancy	ankou: if you're not sure what the project structure should look like then leiningen would be a help
17:32	Licenser	leiningen is quite nice ankou, helped me a lot already
17:33	dakrone	Licenser: if you know whereabouts it's happening, you could stick a debug-repl in near it and check out the local vars
17:34	Licenser	dakrone: problem is that I don't know the where, that is what I need to find :(
17:34	Licenser	My stack trace consists of either Very top level functiosn (-main and such) or Clojure internals or NO_FILE:1
17:34	dakrone	you could try sticking it in a file and running it to get a line number
17:35	Licenser	tries that
17:36	ankou	okay, I will try leiningen and then I'll se if that was the problem or if I get the same error
17:37	timcharper	how do you convert a keyword to a string? (str :hi) yields "hi"
17:37	timcharper	err. (str :hi) yields ":hi"
17:37	timcharper	is the best way to eat the starting : ?
17:37	timcharper	or is there a way to get the name of a keyword as a string
17:37	Licenser	ankou: it is always helpfull to look into the infiror lisp buffer, it often holds very nice information about what goes wrong
17:38	timcharper	hah... nevermind. playing in the repl and found (name :hi) returns "hi"
17:39	timcharper	thank you to all those who began to lend an ear
17:40	ankou	okay, I installed leiningen and started a project, now, according to the documentation of clojuree-swank, I need to put this jar file clojure-swank.jar somewhere in the directory, where do I get this file? or what should I do next?
17:41	Licenser	ankou: just add it to your project.clj
17:41	Licenser	lein will put it in automatically
17:42	timcharper	ok... (name :hi) and (name 'hi) work... but (name "hi") blows up. Any way to intelligently stringify stuff w/out having to resort to conditionals ?
17:42	technomancy	timcharper: as-str should do it
17:42	technomancy	in contrib somewhere...
17:43	Licenser	ankou: I use https://gist.github.com/ed819a02a633b6987486 for my current prject, feel free to take it as an template
17:43	dakrone	timcharper: it's in clojure.contrib.string
17:44	dakrone	,(use 'clojure.contrib.string)
17:44	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/string__init.class or clojure/contrib/string.clj on classpath:
17:44	dakrone	hmm
17:45	ankou	I have not installed lein-swank yet, do I need it or is it just some functionality for convenience?`
17:45	technomancy	ankou: it's only there so you can launch swank sessions from the command-line
17:45	technomancy	ankou: you don't need it if you would rather launch them from elisp
17:47	Licenser	ankou: I am note sure :P I just have it since it's working round now, the entire lein-swank-slime-emacs thing is very fragile I found out
17:48	timcharper	dakrone: is that clojure 1.2 ?
17:49	timcharper	(i'm on clojure 1.1)
17:49	technomancy	timcharper: that'd be in java-utils then
17:49	dakrone	timcharper: hmm...it should be there, it's up on http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html#clojure.contrib.string/as-str
17:49	dakrone	so the documentation must be out of date a bit I guess?
17:49	timcharper	or clojure 1.1 is out of date
17:50	dakrone	no, I don't see it either in 1.2-git
17:50	timcharper	user=> (use 'clojure.contrib.string)
17:50	timcharper	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/string__init.class or clojure/contrib/string.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:50	timcharper
17:50	technomancy	timcharper: ^^ java-utils
17:51	timcharper	bingo technomancy, thanks !
17:51	dakrone	who needs to know that the doc is out of date?
17:52	timcharper	dakrone: I saw a blurb earlier about it being autogenerated
17:52	technomancy	dakrone: it's not out-of-date, it's just reflecting the latest git version
17:53	dakrone	ahh, that would do it
17:53	ankou	okay, now swank clojure is connected to lein, however since this is not quite what I thought it would be.. which advantages do I have now?
17:54	timcharper	ankou: the advantage of being AWESOME
17:54	technomancy	ankou: it's just easier if you have all your dependencies handled in one place.
17:54	technomancy	so you are able to check out your project on any machine, hit lein deps, and go immediately
17:54	technomancy	rather than having to find all the jars by hand
17:54	technomancy	also what timcharper said.
17:55	ankou	that's what leiningen is doing but what does the connection of clojure-swank and leiningen?
17:55	technomancy	ankou: you can run "lein swank" to start a swank server
17:55	timcharper	ankou: if I'm not mistaken, clojure-swank is for connecting emacs to clojure, isn't it?
17:55	technomancy	then M-x slime-connect inside Emacs to join it.
17:55	dakrone	what is swank for anyway? The wikipedia article on it is cough probably not what it actually is.
17:56	ankou	timecharper: yes it is
17:56	patrkris	dakrone: http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure gives a pretty good description
17:56	technomancy	lesson 1: never trust wikipedia
17:57	dakrone	patrkris: ahh, okay
17:57	dakrone	patrkris: thanks
17:59	ankou	technomancy: sorry, I still don't understand. I used swank-clojure-project from emacs to connect it to the leiningen project directory, what's the difference to starting a swank session with leiningen? and would be the advantage of this connection anyway? It seems to me that swank-clojure and leiningen are completly different tools so how do they interact?
18:00	technomancy	ankou: leiningen is a general tool for managing projects. I just recommended it because it sounded like you were unsure of how to lay out your project. it has a plugin for swank that provides you with an alternate way to lauch swank sessions.
18:00	patrkris	ankou: Just a guess: perhaps lein swank makes sure that your swank server has the right stuff in the classpath, which it can read from your project.clj
18:00	patrkris	(I am really guessing, since I just Vim for Clojure development :))
18:01	technomancy	ankou: you can continue using M-x swank-clojure-project too.
18:01	patrkris	*use vim
18:02	ankou	that would make sense. But now I have to use leiningen to compile and run my project right? What's the easiest way to do so from emacs?
18:03	the-kenny	ankou: No, you don't depend on leiningen
18:03	technomancy	ankou: sorry for the confusion. you're right; once your project is set up you only need leiningen for building. basic development still uses M-x swank-clojure-project
18:04	technomancy	leiningen is for getting you past the basic setup point.
18:06	ankou	well I was looking for a way to run the whole project since opening the first project file and running it is pretty cumbersome and I hoped to get better error messages since I don't know why, but when using emacs I don't get the same amount of information I get when using enclojure which I used before
18:07	technomancy	you only have to edit the project file once.
18:08	ankou	was that an answer to my last question?
18:08	patrkris	technomancy: when developing plugins for leiningen, is it necessary to add leiningen itself as a dependency on the project?
18:10	jasapp	http://paste.lisp.org/display/95677
18:10	jasapp	for some reason, this feels a little wrong
18:10	technomancy	ankou: I'm not sure what your question is. I don't see anything specific.
18:10	jasapp	could someone take a look at it?
18:10	technomancy	patrkris: no, it's implied.
18:11	patrkris	technomancy: good... you shouldn't by any chance have tried lein-nailgun? It downloads a shitload of jars to lib upon invoking lein deps - and I thought that might be because it has an explicit dependency on leiningen
18:11	ankou	I mean: when I have a project with several source files, how do I run the whole project?
18:18	ankou	oh of course I want a repl but I thought slime would be more like a complete IDE and not just adding a repl to emacs.
18:19	technomancy	ankou: again, that's pretty vague. slime has a lot of features that go beyond the repl, but I thought you were asking about "running your project".
18:24	dsop	do I understand this correctly I can do something like (session-assoc :foobar "bla") and (read-session :foobar) in compojure 1.1.0?
18:26	patrkris	technomancy: what is the convention if you have a dependency not found in any repository? I just add the jar to version control, or should I try getting it to a repository (potentially my own, local repo)?
18:27	technomancy	patrkris: definitely don't add it to version control, especially if it's git. git is astonishingly bad at storing jar files.
18:28	technomancy	patrkris: if you're collaborating on a project with multiple devs, you need it in a repository. run a private repository if you have to. it's much easier than handling it manually in the long run.
18:28	technomancy	if it's just you, you could get away with doing mvn install:install-file to put it in your local repository cache.
18:29	ankou	yes, I was just confused about slime, that's all. I isntalled lein run now but I'm having the same problems with unsatisfying error messages as I had with slime: when I include a simple error, say (defn -main [&args] (map 'x 'y)) lein run is not able to tell me the location of the error, whereas enclojure actually gives me an helpful errormessage
18:29	dsop	I don't get how sessions work in compojure
18:29	patrkris	technomancy: Ok, thanks! I'm talking about the vimclojure jar, which it seems ato has pushed to clojars, but something is wrong with it... fails with some error concering the POM
18:29	patrkris	"Not a 4.0.0 POM"
18:31	patrkris	but probably it's easier just to install to local repository - maybe I can persuade kotarak to push official vimclojure jars to clojars :)
18:34	ankou	to be more concrete, when I have this source file as the main source in leiningen http://ankou.pastebin.com/PPyeh7CE and execute lein run, then I get this error message: http://ankou.pastebin.com/RMXd4TU0 when I use the same code in enclojure, I get this error message: http://ankou.pastebin.com/6gsa9KhR. It tells me the source file and the line and I think this is very important. They are using different clojure binaries but I don't think that
18:34	ankou	should make a difference. What do I need to do to get a correct error message from leiningen or swank?(it gives me the same error message when running single files)
18:37	technomancy	ankou: that's strange... it actually sounds like a bug in lein-run.
18:37	technomancy	I haven't used that plugin myself
18:37	technomancy	when you load files with slime, you should get line numbers if you use C-c C-k (compiling a whole file) rather than compiling a region or a def at a time
18:41	ankou	when I use C-c C-k it says "compilation finished (no warnings)" so it doesn't even complain about the error? maybe it will result in a runtime error but how can I try this then? if I execute (-main) from repl I don't get a line number
18:44	ankou	what do you use to run your code and get error messages with line numbers?
18:44	patrkris	ankou: that's why it could appear to be a bug in lein-run
18:46	technomancy	ankou: odd... C-c C-k usually works for me, but I'm able to reproduce your problem
18:47	defn	technomancy: is lein heading in the direction of rake? if so, could you provide an example or two of how you use lein to do one-off tasks?
18:48	defn	(on the wiki/readme)
18:48	technomancy	ankou: most errors don't exhibit this problem
18:48	technomancy	ankou: if I replace (map 'x 'y) with (throw (Exception.)) then it works fine.
18:49	technomancy	defn: sorry, too lazy. someone beat me to it. http://nakkaya.com/2010/02/25/writing-leiningen-plugins-101/
18:49	technomancy	=)
18:49	defn	technomancy: haha thanks for the link :)
18:50	defn	I haven't written any lein tasks. Something tells me I'm not going to be going out tonight. :)
18:51	jasapp	why go out when there is a party going on right here in #clojure?
18:51	dsop	nobody recently used compojure sessions?
18:52	dsop	I cant figure out how to write and read the session
18:53	technomancy	ankou: sorry, I don't know why that exception in particular would be obscured from the stack traces. it's an uncommon problem.
18:56	ankou	that's very odd and it's also quite scary because I don't want to spend that much time with debugging. It's odd that enclojure is actually able to give me the correct line number
18:56	technomancy	ankou: the swank-clojure internals are among the oldest open source still-running clojure code in existence outside clojure and contrib.
18:57	technomancy	since the original author has disappeared and the code is in many places very unclear, it's difficult to maintain.
18:57	technomancy	for the record, I have biweekly fantasies of a from-scratch rewrite.
18:59	dnolen	heh, technomancy: I've looked through the source, how LOC is swank-clojure? is it mostly SLIME-interop or mostly Clojure?
18:59	ankou	well yes, but I thought the exception message should come from clojure itself and not from swank-clojure?
18:59	technomancy	ankou: well it's impossible for clojure to get good stack traces from exceptions caused by fns that come from eval
19:00	technomancy	dnolen: it's some parts socket administrivia and more parts implementing the slime protocol.
19:02	ankou	I'm not sure, but I think enclojure is compiling them AOT and then running the jarfile. maybe that would be a good idea for the emacs-combination too?
19:02	technomancy	ankou: when swank-clojure was written, AOT hadn't been implemented yet. =)
19:03	technomancy	ankou: that would solve the problem, but I think there would be simpler ways to solve it too
19:04	arohner	dsop: you include calls to (session-assoc) etc in your response
19:05	dsop	arohner: and to read a asession? (read-session :key) ?
19:05	arohner	dsop: the session is just a normal map
19:06	arohner	(session key) or whatever else you want to do to it
19:06	slyphon	so, if you have user.clj in your classpath, is that automatically sourced when the repl starts?
19:06	ankou	how can I run the AOT-Compiled sources? lein jar;java -jar leintest.jar does not work
19:07	technomancy	ankou: try lein uberjar or including all the deps on the classpath when you invoke java.
19:07	dsop	arohner: ah oay, I probably missed the decorating thing (testing right now)
19:07	arohner	dsop: right. you'll need to decorate with (with-session)
19:09	dsop	arohner: thanks, I'll try
19:09	dsop	arohner: it's not easy to get help concerning compojure, things change fast and there aren't much up-to-date docs
19:10	arohner	dsop: yeah. That's why I'm not telling you to RTFM
19:10	arohner	:-)
19:14	ankou	okay that was my fault, I just forgot the :gen-class. however- now it compiles but the error message still doesn't have any line numbers? that's off, where does enclojure get them?
19:15	technomancy	ankou: running it from the command-line with java gives you no line numbers? that's very interesting.
19:22	ankou	at least not the uberjar, but I suppose there's no difference
19:25	ankou	okay, I found out that the error message is actually missing the first part of the error messages enclojure gives to me. And according to the message enclojure seams to call things like clojure.lang.Compiler.analyze
19:27	troussan	slime
19:28	ankou	what?
19:28	clojurebot	what is wrong with you
19:28	technomancy	clojurebot: be civil.
19:28	clojurebot	atacontrol cap ad0 \| grep serial \| awk '{print $3}'
19:32	defn	,skynet
19:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: skynet in this context
19:32	defn	clojurebot: skynet
19:32	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
19:32	somnium	~asdf
19:32	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
19:32	fro0g	~lambda
19:32	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
19:32	the-kenny	~haskell
19:32	clojurebot	haskell is Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you don't compute.
19:32	somnium	~monad
19:32	clojurebot	monad is "yea, though I should walk in the valley of imperative code, I shall fear no evil, for your monad comforts me" - seen in #haskell
19:33	the-kenny	~emacs
19:33	clojurebot	emacs is an out-moded belief system
19:33	somnium	~visual basic
19:33	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
19:34	fro0g	~omega
19:34	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:34	fro0g	~alpha
19:34	clojurebot	Huh?
19:35	the-kenny	~god
19:35	clojurebot	is_rhickey_is_a_minor_god? is yes
19:35	the-kenny	ugh, underscore
19:36	jasapp	~beer
19:36	clojurebot	Pardon?
19:36	the-kenny	~coffeine
19:36	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:19	slyphon	is there an equivalent to 'static final' in clojure? i.e. a constant?
20:20	slyphon	is that defonce?
20:24	jasapp	what do you need to set as a constant?
20:24	slyphon	uh
20:25	slyphon	strings?
20:25	slyphon	avoiding "magic numbers"
20:25	slyphon	you know, the usual stuff
20:26	technomancy	slyphon: any reason def wouldn't work for that?
20:27	slyphon	er, no
20:27	slyphon	i just wanted to make sure that was the idiomatically correct thing
20:27	technomancy	defonce is (IME) good for java objects that you don't want to create too many of accidentally by re-evaling a file.
20:28	technomancy	but for immutable stuff def is fine
20:28	slyphon	ah, ok
20:48	maxhodak	(let [user-rsrc (format "<%sindiv.%d>" mf user-id)
20:48	maxhodak	query (format "PREFIX mf:%s SELECT ?pred ?obj WHERE {
20:48	maxhodak	%s ?pred ?obj
20:48	maxhodak	}" user-rsrc)]
20:48	maxhodak	er
20:48	maxhodak	sorry
20:48	maxhodak	wrong copypasta
20:48	maxhodak	(frest) <-- thats what i meant to paste
20:49	maxhodak	is that not in current core? its mentioned in the clojure.org cheatsheet
20:50	hiredman	,(doc fnext)
20:50	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (first (next x))"
20:51	maxhodak	,(doc frest)
20:51	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
20:51	maxhodak	interesting
21:18	slyphon	uh
21:18	slyphon	what's the difference between 'binding' and 'with-bindings'?
21:19	slyphon	oh, it's multiple?
21:47	maxhodak	pushing to clojars.org always hangs for me
22:15	TheBusby	what clojure concurrency construct should I use for handling mutex?
22:16	TheBusby	specifically so two threads don't try and use the mouse at the same time...
22:16	slyphon	i don't think that's what it's meant for
22:17	slyphon	aiui the concurrency constructs are mainly focused around manipulating clojure data
22:17	slyphon	though
22:18	slyphon	i guess it depends on the problem
22:18	TheBusby	was wondering if it was possible to use an atom to isolate a function
22:19	TheBusby	specifically I have a function that moves though mouse, sleeps, the clicks the mouse. I can't have two or more threads using the mouse all at the same time
22:19	slyphon	well, i know actors are used for serializing access to data
22:19	slyphon	er
22:19	slyphon	agents, rather
22:20	slyphon	but, for example, i needed a queue to allow for thread communication in this thing i'm writing, and so i just used j.u.c.LinkedBlockingQueue
22:20	slyphon	and wrapped it in a sequence
22:20	TheBusby	ahh, so maybe fall back to Java's mutex system?
22:20	slyphon	yeah, why not?
22:21	slyphon	if you find some awesomely clever clojure way of doing it later, then great!
22:21	TheBusby	that's true
22:21	TheBusby	I guess it's so rare that you need true mutex these days
22:22	slyphon	there are definately situations where you need it, but yeah, i find myself more often needing queue structures than mutexes
22:29	dnolen	anyone bothered trying openjdk on os x?
22:29	slyphon	worked for me
22:29	slyphon	iirc
22:29	slyphon	"soylatte"
22:29	slyphon	was the one
22:30	dnolen	slyphon: any noticeable different between openjdk and apple's?
22:30	slyphon	hrm
22:30	dnolen	different -> difference
22:30	slyphon	iirc the swing stuff isn't integrated
22:30	slyphon	i can't for the life of me remember why i was using it over the native one
22:30	slyphon	there was some bug i ran into that openjdk fixed
22:31	slyphon	dnolen: it was a while ago, sorry i can't be more specific
22:32	dnolen	slyphon: thx, just curious really. Also you never know with Apple these days ... as much as I like OS X and the hardware.
22:32	slyphon	yeah, indeed
23:01	brandonw	what is the idiomatic way of binding several symbols locally to values, but also performing other logic between the bind. i could just have an outer let for one symbol, then inner logic, then another inner let, then more inner logic, then another let, et cetera. that doesn't seem very clean though
23:56	slyphon	just a style question, if i write a macro jndi/with-initial-context, and it's intended to work like: (jndi/with-initial-context ctx (.lookup ctx "/Foo")) should the argument to the macro be in a vector? the 'ctx' kind of looks naked hanging out there