#clojure – 2010-02-15

2010-02-15

00:01	arkrost	Hi! Can anyone show me code example with using with-bindings* macro?
00:09	arkrost	Is anuone here?
00:09	arkrost	*anyone
00:37	qbg	Okay
00:38	qbg	,(let [f (fn [] warn-on-reflection)] (with-bindings* {#'warn-on-reflection true} f))
00:38	clojurebot	true
01:39	qed	'lo 'lo
03:08	LauJensen	Morning gents
03:09	Raynes	Morning.
03:12	Raynes	LauJensen: What are you up to this morning?
03:13	LauJensen	So far I'm ready for morning coffee, you? :)
03:15	Raynes	LauJensen: I've been awake since 1:00pm yesterday, and it's 2:17AM at the moment, and I don't intend to sleep anytime soon.
03:15	Raynes	I'm trying to learn Factor, even though my attention span is nil.
03:15	Raynes	So, I'm good.
03:15	Raynes	And it's snowing. I think.
03:16	Raynes	Yeah. It's snowing.
03:16	Raynes	Actually, it might be finished snowing.
03:16	Raynes	Tends to not last long in Alabama.
03:24	LauJensen	Normally we would say the same here, but it has been subzero C for months now
03:30	sunkencity	Why do I need to make an inline function like #(.equals %1 %2) when using map rather than just .equals?
03:30	LauJensen	because its a java-fn
03:32	sunkencity	ok. so java functions always need their own parens?
03:33	Chousuke	it's a method. Methods don't implement the needed interfaces
03:33	sunkencity	ok. now I get it. tnx
03:33	Chousuke	basically you're creating a function that calls a method on its parameters
03:36	sunkencity	Is there some nice syntactic sugar to guard against nullpointers like (.equals nil nil), should I use maybe monad maybe or is there something simpler?
03:36	Chousuke	no syntactic sugar, but you can use (or foo default)
03:37	Chousuke	or other solutions, depending on what you need. :P
03:37	sunkencity	but then I get an exception
03:38	Chousuke	you need to check for nils if whatever you pass them to is not expecting them :/
03:39	sunkencity	I've programmed too much ruby, I prefer nil to be an object :)
03:40	LauJensen	(map #(.fn %1 %2) (filter identify sequence))
03:40	Chousuke	identity :P
03:41	Chousuke	also note -?> and -?>> in contrib which short-circuit on nil
03:56	TheBusby	what are -?> and -?>> under in contrib (google really hates those...)
03:56	TheBusby	?
03:58	LauJensen	~source -?>
03:59	LauJensen	There u go TheBusby
04:05	TheBusby	LauJensen: Thanks,
05:22	zab	Hi. I'm trying to get a dev environment set up for running Clojure in App Engine. I followed this: http://www.hackers-with-attitude.com/2009/08/intertactive-programming-with-clojure.html but I cannot get the App Engine decorator described to work.
05:22	zab	Does anyone know what this mean? java.lang.IllegalAccessError: class clojure.proxy.com.google.appengine.tools.development.ApiProxyLocalImpl cannot access its superclass com.google.appengine.tools.development.Ap
05:22	zab	iProxyLocalImpl (start.clj:44) at clojure.lang.Compiler.analyzeSeq(Compiler.java:4503)
06:28	tomoj	#clojure has not been active enough this morning to satiate my desire to procrastinate :(
08:16	powr-toc	is there a function like select-keys that does the opposite and returns all the keys not in the supplied seq?
08:17	powr-toc	I mean one that returns a map of all the keys (to values) that are not in the supplied seq
08:19	ulfster	you can use the set-function
08:20	chouser	powr-toc: dissoc, I think.
08:25	ulfster	,(clojure.set/difference (set (keys {:a 1 :b 2})) (set (keys {:b 3})))
08:25	clojurebot	#{:a}
08:25	chouser	,(dissoc {:a 1 :b 2} :b)
08:25	clojurebot	{:a 1}
08:25	powr-toc	chouser: dissoc's exactly what I want
08:39	chouser	cgrand: yes, I don't see why we shouldn't lobby for a 'swap' that returns the old value.
08:39	chouser	as long as you're using pure functions with 'swap!', you can always calculate the new value from the old for yourself, but the reverse is not true.
08:41	cgrand	chouser: or that returns both values
08:41	chouser	yes
08:41	rhickey	cgrand: what's the use case? (I just arrived)
08:42	cgrand	chouser: what was your latest use case?
08:42	chouser	my use case is a map of request-id's to callbacks
08:43	rhickey	please explain
08:43	chouser	the requests can arrive on any thread. Usually each id will arrive only once, but if one arrives twice I want to be absolutely sure I only call the callback once
08:44	chouser	the map is already in an atom.
08:44	rhickey	another use case for cells
08:45	rhickey	cells can serialize activity, atoms only data
08:51	chouser	When a cell holds a transient, you send it mutating fns? And it has hooks to call both transient and persistent! as needed?
08:52	rhickey	chouser: could be mutating or not, yes, calls transient/persistent, which become protocols
08:52	chouser	but "send" is the wrong word because it's synchronous -- closer to 'alter'?
08:52	rhickey	yes, more like alter
08:53	chouser	do I have to indicate when I alter whether the call is mutating or not so it knows which of the transient/persistent hooks it needs to use?
08:54	rhickey	no, the fn will always be applied to the transient component
08:55	rhickey	if there is no transient component, it will be created
08:55	chouser	the fns are serialized via locks
08:55	rhickey	depends - the access control policy is actually independent
08:55	rhickey	e.g. the single threaded policy uses no locks
08:57	chouser	I have this other (ab)use of atoms that I'm trying to think if cells could replace.
08:57	bosie	i don't understeand how iterate nows when to stop the infinite loop ? like here: https://gist.github.com/27254bbcf1555202882e
08:57	chouser	still not sure -- my thinking is so fuzzy. :-/
08:58	chouser	bosie: 'iterate' and 'map' are lazy, so no work is done until something that's using the seq returned by 'index' asks for the first or next item.
08:58	chouser	bosie: and then only one step is done until something asks for the next item after that. And so on...
08:59	bosie	meaning (println) asks for more and never stops asking?
08:59	chouser	yes. oh, but 'map' in that case is given two seqs. It stops asking when either of the seqs runs out of items.
09:00	bosie	ok
09:00	bosie	thanks chouser
09:02	chouser	huh. Perhaps I should be using refs instead of atoms for this other case.
09:02	chouser	yeah, that's it. hmph.
09:03	chouser	actually, both cases.
09:05	rhickey	in general, if you feel you are trying to build a higher-level construct out of atoms, you might want to look at one of the other ref types
09:05	rhickey	except when you are trying to build a queue, then j.u.c.
09:07	chouser	I think I passed over refs initially because I need to call this potentially inpure callback. But if I just have my transaction return a flag indicating if it should be called or not, I can do the actual call outside the transaction.
09:12	bosie	rhickey: does the green '2010 funding progress' mean you have almost met your goal of being able to work on it full time?
09:12	rhickey	bosie: almost, yes
09:13	AWizzArd	If it continues to go well we can fund 1-2 more full time devs :)
09:14	bosie	let's hope so, don't want to learn a language which will become obsolete in half a year ;)
09:15	AWizzArd	bosie: highly unlikely.
09:16	AWizzArd	Clojure already has very many users, and even if it would not continue to develop from now on (which is unlikely) it already is a greta platform for development and offers a rich feature set.
09:19	chouser	not just many users, demonstrably sufficient users with sufficient committment to fund a year's worth of development.
09:19	chouser	That arguably puts Clojure's ongoing development on a better footing most open-source projects.
09:21	bosie	chouser: iff it pulls in the same amount (more due to inflation) next year though
09:21	chouser	bosie: sure, but the people donating this time did so with the understanding they were only covering one year.
09:23	chouser	And what's more likely, that a significant number of people will pull their funding or than some corporate sponser (I'm thinking Red Hat or Ubuntu's Canonical) falls on hard times and disbands?
09:23	chouser	My point isn't which is more likely, actually, but that it's not obvious to me that one is on substantially better ground than the other.
09:24	bosie	that's true about the corporate sponsors
09:47	underdev	hi! im working my way through programming clojure
09:47	bosie	underdev: me too
09:47	underdev	a simple operation isn't working as described
09:47	underdev	(def inventors {"Lisp" "McCarthy" "Clojure" "Hicky"})
09:47	underdev	duh
09:48	bosie	works fine here
09:48	underdev	i was using the value and not the key
09:48	underdev	nm :)
09:54	chouser	is it any less efficient or correct to deref a ref a couple times in a dosync rather than deref once and store in a local?
09:57	Chousuke	chouser: I think it might be a bit race-prone to deref a ref multiple times :/
09:58	rhickey	chouser: I think it is good practice to deref as few times as possible
10:00	Chousuke	will the result a deref change if some other transaction modifies the ref and commits in the mean time?
10:01	rhickey	hrm, JavaOne topic areas include Java and "scripting languages", but not alternative languages - https://www28.cplan.com/cfp_prod/CFPLogin.jsp?wId=268225
10:01	rhickey	Chousuke: no!
10:01	Chousuke	right.
10:01	rhickey	that's the (I)solated of ACI_
10:02	rhickey	are Clojure and Scala scripting languages?
10:02	Chousuke	so it's safe to do multiple derefs, but you need ensure if you want to restart in case something else commits a modification to the ensured ref? Am I getting this right?
10:03	rpdillon	Re: few times as possible - potential error, or just good style?
10:03	rhickey	Chousuke: if you aren't changing a ref but your transaction being correct relies upon it not changing, you must ensure it
10:04	rhickey	that doesn't mean you will see it change in-transaction
10:06	Chousuke	I'm finding it somewhat difficult for some reason to keep the semantics of in-transaction deref and ensure in my head :P
10:09	rhickey	Chousuke: start with the snapshot model of a transaction - your transaction will see the world as-of a point in time. Don't lose that while you incorporate that ensure is about the state of the world when your transaction commits - ensured refs won't be different than what you saw
10:09	Chousuke	right
10:10	rhickey	and rely on the STM's ACI to completely free you from thinking about actions of other threads - if they cause conflicts you will retry
10:11	rhickey	that's why I'm concerned about http://java.ociweb.com/mark/stm/article.html - too much emphasis on implementation and too little on semantics, the latter being much simpler
10:12	cemerick	does anyone do any scripting with either clojure or scala?
10:13	underdev	why would you script with jvm langs? Esp when there is tcl.
10:13	underdev	;)
10:14	cemerick	I tend to think that, if you're scripting, especially around jvm-based apps, you're doing it wrong.
10:14	_fogus_	rhickey: Which is also why Chouser and I want to focus on the latter. IMO the semantics are much more important
10:14	Chousuke	Hmm. So you're supposed to make a decision based on a snapshot, and if your decision is based on things that are no longer true when you finish, you get to retry. And commute is a way of saying "I don't actually care what the state of this thing is, do X to it"
10:14	rhickey	_fogus_: yes, please
10:15	rhickey	Chousuke: the best way to think about it is - should some promise not be possible to make, your transaction didn't happen. Thus you only need to concern yourself with the semantics of successful transactions
10:16	_fogus_	cemerick: "you're doing it wrong"... care to elaborate?
10:18	cemerick	_fogus_: scripts are generally fragile and platform-dependent. If you have the opportunity, eliminating/minimizing "scripting" as a deployment/administration methodology is almost always for the better.
10:19	Chousuke	cemerick: hmmh, that's a pessimistic view of scripting :P
10:19	_fogus_	cemerick: I would follow with, if your scripts are platform dependent, then you're doing it wrong.
10:19	Chousuke	cemerick: most OSes are full of scripts that work just fine :)
10:19	_fogus_	naturally platform independence is not 100% achievable, but it could be minimized
10:20	underdev	by tcl
10:20	underdev	sorry, i'll stop
10:21	underdev	i must admit, after listening to all those theoretical talks on functional langs, most of my tcl code looks stupid to me now.
10:21	cemerick	eh, I dread ever having to write or modify a script, of any sort. The time spent is almost always in dealing with absurd minutiae that I always feel like I shouldn't have to bother with.
10:21	chouser	I wonder if there's sufficient meaning in the word "script" to support any discussion like this.
10:21	_fogus_	chouser: +1
10:24	underdev	ousterhout and wall have written interesting things about that
10:24	rhickey	chouser: and yet, there is something to Oracle's consistent use of the qualifier, I think
10:24	underdev	level of abstraction, mostly
10:24	underdev	i think
10:25	underdev	but where you draw the line is definitely up for debate
10:25	rhickey	Java + scripting languages is less of a threat to Java than Java +/vs alternative general purpose JVM langs
10:25	cemerick	rhickey: insofar as their entire product line is keyed toward java as the chosen "application development language", they have to have the qualifier
10:25	cemerick	or, what you just said :-/
10:26	chouser	So the relevent question is what exactly Oracle means by a scripting language.
10:26	rhickey	they explicitly list Python, Ruby and JavaFX
10:27	chouser	do they mean "slow"? :-)
10:27	_fogus_	I see a topic category, "The Java Frontier". That sounds like alt langs to me
10:28	underdev	that article about why i love everything you hate about java was interesting
10:28	rhickey	_fogus_: yeah, the wild west
10:28	underdev	reminds me of what is said about c++ and other "system languages"
10:28	chouser	underdev: did you see the response as well?
10:29	underdev	i don't know to which you refer.
10:29	chouser	http://romanroe.blogspot.com/2010/02/why-i-hate-everything-you-love-about.html
10:29	_fogus_	rhickey: Question is, are you more like Wyatt Earp or Billy the Kid? ;-)
10:30	rhickey	e.g. people thinking - add closures to Java and why do you need Scala?
10:31	underdev	saved in diigo as unread, it's awfully long
10:31	underdev	looks very interesting though
10:31	_fogus_	underdev: Well, it's definitely longer than 140 chars, but worth the time. :-)
10:31	underdev	lol
10:32	_fogus_	rhickey: Push-back from whom?
10:32	rhickey	_fogus_: Oracle
10:32	_fogus_	ahhhh
10:32	underdev	here's where the rubber meets the road. I was a SCPJ, wrote a huge system in java for a call center. Someone mentioned perl to me. I rewrote in under 1000 lines of code. NEVER LOOKED BACK.
10:32	rhickey	Clojure, being so different, is off the radar I think
10:33	cemerick	Scala's objectives seem entirely at odds with Oracle's. Intriguing / confusing type system experiments don't sell anything.
10:33	_fogus_	It would be interesting to see how Oracle might present such an argument, especially given that there is a general view (be it wrong or not) that "normal" Java developers could never understand closures
10:34	rhickey	_fogus_: then they'll certainly never understand Scala
10:34	noidi	regarding long blog posts, this really helps to read them :) http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/
10:35	cemerick	The morts don't want closures, they want more and better tools, and that's where the money is.
10:35	_fogus_	rhickey: Maybe that is the approach. Present Scala as indecipherable
10:35	rhickey	I just hink the Sun folks were incredibly open-minded and now I expect less of that. As the owner of Java and JavaFX I expect Oracle to consider Scala and Groovy(++) as threats and or dilution of their story
10:36	underdev	i for one, love reading in depth pieces. Just can't do it at an arbitrary time.
10:36	rhickey	I'm not trying to argue against Scala (Clojure is in the same or worse boat, but never had pretensions of replacing Java in the mainstream)
10:36	_fogus_	rhickey: I for one understand your stance on Scala and did not presume anything of the sort
10:36	rhickey	But the wording of things like the call for papers might have been carefully considered. I mean, leaving Clojure and Scala guessing as to which track they might fit?
10:38	_fogus_	Frontier is definitely a loaded term
10:38	chouser	I wonder if Python and Ruby are less threatening because the JVM versions are seen as secondary, or because of their speed, or dynamism, or ... what?
10:38	chouser	secondary to each's C implementation I mean
10:38	rhickey	chouser: well, it was interesting to see then listed as Python and Rucy, not Jython and JRuby
10:38	rhickey	er, Ruby
10:38	chouser	hm.
10:38	cemerick	chouser: they're not less threatening, there's more money to be had in them.
10:39	bosie	rhickey: in which time zone are you ?
10:39	rhickey	bosie: NY
10:40	chouser	cemerick: more money to be had by Oracle? how?
10:41	rhickey	of course, this could all be unwarranted speculation. After all, last year the keepers of the lingo changed every reference to the JVM in every talk to the "JVM Machine"
10:41	chouser	heh
10:41	Chousuke	:/
10:41	rhickey	making us all seem like idiots from the department of redundancy department
10:41	ohpauleez	haha
10:41	ohpauleez	really? that's so funny
10:42	noidi	maybe this year it'll be the Java JVM Machine to leverage the brand ;)
10:42	chouser	amazing. I went to college near a town that had a building labeled "The City of Gas City City Hall"
10:42	Chousuke	redundancy in terminology isn't that uncommon but why would they change it like that.
10:43	cemerick	chouser: (a) even if people aren't using jython or jruby, oracle's got a pile of other tech they'd like to sell to people using those languages, so they want to be language-agnostic enough to support that pitch, (b) if people do use jython or jruby, they benefit from those folks needing more iron, (c) insofar as people who use jython and jruby use netbeans, they'll be more likely to buy oracle kit in general.
10:43	cemerick	all of those are only made possible by a certain critical mass in the size of those language's communities, of course.
10:43	_fogus_	chouser: That sounds like Buffalo buffalo buffalo...
10:45	chouser	cemerick: so all Clojure needs to be included is critical mass?
10:45	cemerick	chouser: if there were suddenly X clojure programmers that represented Y dollars in spending authority / recommendations, I guarantee you that Oracle would list it next to python and ruby.
10:45	chouser	:-) fair enough
10:46	cemerick	The great thing about oracle is that their objectives and motivations are rarely hard to figure out. Far less capricious than Sun, certainly.
10:47	rhickey	cemerick: I think it is a completely different game - Python and Ruby devs represent potential new clients not in the fold. Clojure will come from the other side, as they discover existing clients already using it, esp in analytics to start.
10:49	chouser	did you expect a Clojure to find a niche in analytics as it has. I for whan have been completely surprised.
10:50	cemerick	Yeah, very different userbases. The shared independent variable is purchase authority, tho.
10:50	rhickey	OT - has anyone ever used the xvid quicktime plugin for OS X? There's a talk I want to watch in this format, but the plugin is old and alpha
10:50	rhickey	cemerick: true
10:51	Chousuke	rhickey: Install Perian
10:52	rhickey	chouser: I never foresaw what has happened with Clojure at all :/
10:53	drewr	rhickey: http://www.videolan.org/
10:53	cemerick	rhickey: irritated at what it's being used for, or that you didn't see it coming?
10:53	rhickey	cemerick: I'm not irritated at all, just bemused
10:55	eyeris	Is there a std contains function? Similar to python's in operator?
10:55	eyeris	e.g. (contains 1 [1 2 3]) -> true
10:55	stuartsierra	eyeris: idiom is (some #{1} [1 2 3])
10:56	stuartsierra	Works in O(n) time.
10:56	chouser	eyeris: any reason you can't use a set instead of a vector for that collection?
10:56	eyeris	I can.
10:56	chouser	I mean, don't convert to a set just for the contains op, but if you're mainly using it for that kind of lookup, well that's exactly what sets are for.
10:57	chouser	you can do (#{1 2 3} 2) in nearly constant time.
10:58	eyeris	I am just categorizing a database record and I want to avoid (or (= (:code row) 2112) (= (:code row) 2660) ...) for 6-7 more code values
10:58	eyeris	So I would have to convert the field to a set, but the set of values is static, so it would be just fine to use a set on that side.
10:59	chouser	so a constant set of values. Yeah, a literal set should work perfectly.
11:00	chouser	(if (-> row :code #{2112 2660 ...}) ...)
11:00	chouser	or whatever
11:01	rhickey	drewr: works - thanks!
11:02	rrc7cz	has anyone else seen the seq returned by iterator-seq not stopping correctly? In other words, calling .next when .hasNext is false?
11:02	Chousuke	chouser: I think that borders on abuse of -> :P
11:03	noidi	howcome?
11:03	chouser	could be. I only lurched that direction to avoid ((
11:03	eyeris	I went with: (some (set (:code case-row)) #{2260 2310 2320})
11:03	chouser	(#{2112 2660 ...} (:code row)) ...oh, nm.
11:03	chouser	eyeris: that's still O(n).
11:04	eyeris	Oh?
11:04	chouser	"some" is O(n). Perhaps: (get #{2260 2310 2320} (:code case-row))
11:04	noidi	I think chouser's first version reads nicely; "if the row's code is in [set], do something"
11:04	eyeris	I see
11:05	Chousuke	noidi: (<set> item) is the clojure idiom, and -> kind of obscures that
11:06	Chousuke	I tend to read -> as a "pipeline" so the set doesn't quite fit
11:07	chouser	->> is the pipeline op :-)
11:07	noidi	IMHO that's no more unclear than (-> foobar :looking :up :values :in :nested :maps)
11:08	Chousuke	Well, I can't tell you to think otherwise, but I disagree :P
11:08	noidi	hehe
11:09	Chousuke	But I think people are perhaps overusing -> sometimes
11:10	noidi	now that I think of it, I would've placed the set first, too
11:11	hiredman	pffft
11:12	Chousuke	Maybe it's some subconscious trauma from when I found a monster from clojurebot's code that was something like (-> foo ((partial map quux)) ((partial filter blah)) ((?!?? ??F?S?D?F)) :foo :bar .toUpperCase)
11:12	hiredman	:P
11:12	Chousuke	except with more partials and functions.
11:12	noidi	because the check against the set doesn't "modify" the value, like I imagine a pipeline to do
11:13	hiredman	Chousuke: that could be any line in any file of clojurebot, could you be more specific :P
11:14	Chousuke	sadly I've forgotten which file it was in :/
11:14	Chousuke	My brain has blocked the specifics; they're too gruesome
12:03	ordnungswidrig	I still fight binding and bound-fn...
12:03	ordnungswidrig	i there a decent example in the web out there?
12:04	eyeris	What don't you understand about them?
12:04	ordnungswidrig	eyeris: "it doesn't work".
12:05	eyeris	I've never used bound-fn because I have to stick to 1.0, but it seems like the difference is that binding lets you establish new bindings in the middle of a function where you need both bindings, at different times.
12:05	eyeris	ordnungswidrig: do you have a paste?
12:06	ordnungswidrig	eyeris: paste is a little difficult - i try to extract the exact problem. A little context first:
12:07	ordnungswidrig	I define a compojure handler and at this time some configuration is avaiable, say db settings. The compojure handler uses another libs with-xxx macro which expands to a (binding [conn …] …) form. The problem is that this handler is executed in a different thread and doesn't have the binding.
12:09	eyeris	So your issue is then not with the binding macro but instead with the outer bindings
12:10	eyeris	You basically have two choices. You can def conn globally or you can pass it to the handler that spawns the new thread.
12:11	eyeris	There may be another option, but I'd have to see the code.
12:12	hiredman	man, passing values to functions? that's crazy
12:13	ordnungswidrig	pasie
12:13	ordnungswidrig	lisppaste8: url?
12:13	hiredman	lisppaste8 seems to have been dead for a while now
12:14	eyeris	patebin.ca (my fav) has been dog slow for months too
12:16	ordnungswidrig	http://paste.lisp.org/display/94993
12:17	hiredman	bleh
12:17	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: I don't think that's how you use binding :/
12:17	hiredman	using with-foo like that over the global routs seems horrible
12:18	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: I tried all kind of location
12:18	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: if you changed "binding" to let that would work :P
12:18	eyeris	Damnit Chousuke, you beat me to it!
12:18	eyeris	I had that half-typed out :)
12:18	Chousuke	but of course you would be unable to affect teh value of foo afterwards
12:20	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: actually the library which defines with-foo is under my control. Isn't it best practice to provide a macro like that to keep around a db connection?
12:20	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: the problem with that is that the route is defined to use the value foo, and the value of foo _is_ "FOO" when the route is defined, but not after the definition.
12:20	ordnungswidrig	db connection as an example.
12:20	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: I see.
12:21	Chousuke	oh wait, it extends to start-server as well. never mind
12:21	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: internally compojure generates and throws around a lot of (fn [])
12:21	Chousuke	there you hit the thread-locality of var binding :)
12:21	hiredman	ordnungswidrig: just because the only way to fit a knife between someone's ribs is to turn it so the blade is horizontal doesn't mean you should go around stabing people
12:21	ordnungswidrig	yes, I extended it over start-server intentionally.
12:21	Chousuke	if start-server starts the server in another thread, the dynamic binding is no longer effective there
12:22	hiredman	(just because that is the only place binding works, it doesn't mean you should use a binding there)
12:22	hiredman	you should just pass whatever it is around
12:22	cemerick	huh, interesting that private vars can be rebound without a #'
12:23	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: that is an option. But this means tha I cannot make use of something with a with-xxx macro then in a threaded context?
12:23	hiredman	ordnungswidrig: there are various things like bound-fn, etc, but I think passing it around is the best solution
12:24	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: so even when I bind within the handler it would not see the binding due to running in a different thread?!
12:26	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: it doesn't matter where in code the binding happens. If you bind within a different thread then other threads will not see the change
12:26	Chousuke	where you put the binding in code only influences that indirectly :P
12:27	hiredman	ordnungswidrig: I have no idea, I am discussing a particular threading/execution model of a particular environment (compojure), I am saying the application of functions to arguments is a good model and should be promoted over models that make use of implicit arguments passed via binding
12:27	Chousuke	ie. you might pass around a function that does dynamic binding to a helper which executes it in multiple threads, thus creating multiple dynamic bindings
12:27	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: I'm totally on your side.
12:28	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: is test-server a function?
12:28	ordnungswidrig	bound-fn will expose the complete environment to the body, right?
12:28	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: a java instance
12:28	Chousuke	meh
12:28	ordnungswidrig	org.mortbay.jetty.Server
12:29	Chousuke	if it were a function you could have done (start-server (bound-fn* test-server)) :)
12:30	ordnungswidrig	http://paste.lisp.org/display/94993#1
12:30	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: you can use bound-fn* instead of bound-fn there.
12:31	ordnungswidrig	I guess the usage of bound-fn in this case is fine. Or do you see any side effects?
12:31	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: bound-fn*?
12:31	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: just (bound-fn* handler)
12:31	Chousuke	it takes a function and returns another which sets up the proper dynamic environment prior to calling the original function
12:31	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: ok, I'll try in my "real" application
12:32	Chousuke	bound-fn is a convenience macro for (bound-fn* (fn [args] (blah args)))
12:33	ordnungswidrig	silly me. I actually tried (boundfn [] (with-foo (…))
12:33	Chousuke	heheh
12:43	ordnungswidrig	…and finally it works
12:43	ordnungswidrig	thanks guys
13:15	triyo	anyone try congomongo (clojure mongodb driver) with clojure-1.2-master (intrim)? Getting clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V [Thrown class java.lang.NoSuchMethodError] with swank-clojure.
13:15	triyo	however if I run with "lein repl" then it works. But here clojure-verion -> 1.1-master
13:19	triyo	guess congomongo 0.1.1 doesn'r work with clojure {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"} yet.
13:20	triyo	which prob makes sense.
13:22	triyo	I see the relevant "new" branch under congomongo.
14:06	LauJensen	Does anyone have an idea of how the Oracle acquisition will affect clojure-land ?
14:06	rsynnott	well, Java is unlikely to go away...
14:12	drewr	LauJensen: that was being discussed earlier
14:12	drewr	check out the logs for today
14:13	LauJensen	thanks
14:13	LauJensen	~log
14:13	clojurebot	see logs
14:13	LauJensen	~logs
14:13	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
14:14	Intertricity	I know this is a simple question but- would clojure be a good alternative to C# for developing a game server?
14:14	Intertricity	or even stackless python
14:16	rsynnott	Intertricity: probably, yes, depending on the type of game
14:16	Chousuke	Well, If python is fast enough for you, Clojure probably is too, and the concurrency features might be attractive for a server.
14:16	AWizzArd	Clojure would be a good choice for this.
14:16	Intertricity	rsynnott, say a virtual world that served up models, stored user uploaded modelers, etc.
14:16	rsynnott	Stackless python more or less exists for that reason; most development is done by that Icelandic company that runs Eve Online
14:16	rsynnott	but yep, clojure's concurrency model would seem to be quite suitable
14:16	Intertricity	*models
14:17	Intertricity	yeah I was thinking about stackless python, but I wanted to play with a lisp
14:17	Intertricity	but I wanted to know if I'd be digging myself a hole or not, using it for something it wouldn't have been suited for or not
14:17	Intertricity	I wonder if clojure would be faster than stackless :P
14:18	rsynnott	probably depends on how you use it
14:18	rsynnott	all else being equal, it probably should be; better garbage collection and all that
14:19	LauJensen	Does the licensing around the JVM guarantee that there will always be a free JVM around ?
14:19	Chousuke	LauJensen: there's a GPL'd version of the JVM available, so yes.
14:19	Chousuke	you can't un-GPL it :/
14:19	Intertricity	rsynnott, thanks for the help ^^
14:20	chouser	also, clojure may not always depend on a JVM
14:20	LauJensen	chouser: I know, but in a certain regard we do depend on libraries
14:20	Chousuke	though Oracle may cut of support for it... Which would rather foolish of them :)
14:20	Chousuke	+be
14:20	rsynnott	LauJensen: I believe so, yes
14:21	rsynnott	Chousuke: oracle have a history of maintaining open source stuff, as long as it's dual-licensed with a commercial license and a highly restrictive open-source one (such as the GPL)
14:21	rsynnott	Sleepycat BDB is the obvious example
14:22	Chousuke	"highly restrictive" :P
14:22	Chousuke	I guess it is, relatively speaking
14:23	hiredman	someone at the seattle meatup suggested we might see a split, jrocket as the "enterprise" jvm and openjdk as the free one, which I think matches up with this comment: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=59317#332147
14:24	rsynnott	Chousuke: in that it requires release of modifications, and is effectively transmissible
14:24	Chousuke	I suppose Oracle might even open up the JVM development process more than Sun did.
14:24	rsynnott	(if one bit of GPL touches your product, it ends up GPLd)
14:24	rsynnott	hopefully, a clisp-like situation does not arise :)
14:25	rsynnott	(clisp's FAQ claims that applications which use a part of clisp which is not part of the Common Lisp standard, such as the FFI, are themselves subject to the GPL)
14:25	rsynnott	though it's uncertain whether this is actually, whne it comes down to it, true
14:26	Chousuke	well, one could consider it a GPL library
14:26	Chousuke	linking against a GPL'd library means your program needs to be GPL as well, as far as I know
14:26	rsynnott	yep
14:27	Chousuke	Also don't macros cause more problems with the GPL, as you're basically including the library's code in your own product.
14:27	Chousuke	At least I've seen a (L)GPL exception specifically adressing this
14:27	rsynnott	Chousuke: LLGPL?
14:28	hiredman	LOLGPL
14:28	Chousuke	:P
14:28	rsynnott	AFAIR it more addresses the issues brought up by the LGPL for languages which don't use proper dynamic linking
14:28	hiredman	snort
14:29	rsynnott	(you're allowed distribute an LLGPL library as part of your common lisp system without infection, but not an LGPL one)
14:29	hiredman	blaming legal issues on technology and the reverse is very silly
14:30	rsynnott	LGPL certainly feels like it was designed in the context of C-like languages on UNIX-adjacent things
14:37	LauJensen	I'm speaking at http://opensourcedays.org/2010/ - Be there or be square
14:38	tomoj	"We could not calculate directions between Austin, TX and Copenhagen, Denmark."
14:38	tomoj	sorry
14:41	LauJensen	(just kidding, I know you'll find a way here)
14:44	tomoj	highly doubtful :(
14:52	texodus	the EPL and GPL are incompatible, correct?
14:53	texodus	so there's no way to license a clojure project that depends on contrib and a GPL licensed lib?
14:54	rhickey	EPL doesn't limit licenses with which it is combined, but GPL does
14:54	chouser	It's GPL not LGPL?
14:54	texodus	yes ... LGPL would be compatible though, yes?
14:55	chouser	I would think so.
14:55	chouser	Lots of Java GPL libs have a "class path exception" or something which may make a difference.
14:57	texodus	class path exception? So, if I add it to my classpath but don't modify the source, I can license my code under whatever (assuming the library in question has this clause)?
14:58	chouser	You'd have to check the actual clause, but that's my vague understanding.
14:58	texodus	interesting
14:59	texodus	thanks
15:03	chouser	if I want to insert the value of a reference object into a syntax-quote, I guess I can't use ~@my-ref
15:03	Chousuke	heh
15:04	chouser	hm. that should have been a pop quiz
15:05	Chousuke	What kind of macro do you have that needs refs? :\|
15:06	chouser	I broke clojure.contrib.trace/dotrace, and now I'm trying to fix it
15:06	chouser	well, did fix it.
15:07	chouser	so it was vars not refs
15:26	Licenser	hmm what deos this: http://gist.github.com/304958 tell me?
15:27	ordnungswidrig	Licenser: macro-expansion time?
15:27	Licenser	no run time
15:27	ordnungswidrig	Licenser: does the inferior-lisp buffer tell you something or the other slime buffers?
15:28	chouser	(.foo nil)
15:28	chouser	,(.foo nil)
15:28	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
15:28	ordnungswidrig	,(nil nil)
15:28	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil
15:28	chouser	,(let [x nil] (x))
15:28	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
15:29	Licenser	ordnungswidrig: not really
15:29	ordnungswidrig	Licenser: I remember having the same "stackless" NPE the other day.
15:29	ordnungswidrig	Licenser: do you have other SLDB buffer open?
15:30	chouser	oh, there's no "cause"?
15:30	Licenser__	problem is that I just get' nullpointer exceptiopj' nothing helpful at all no where no message even
15:31	rhickey	naming time. Need names for cells, their access policy thingies, their 'alter' equivalent, the peek op
15:31	rhickey	ideas procs, ??, >>, <<
15:31	hiredman	couldn't the peek op just be deref?
15:32	rhickey	no, still have deref
15:32	chouser	deref can trigger hooks, peek cannot?
15:32	rhickey	peek is used to look at part of the transient
15:33	rhickey	e.g. to get the count of a transient collection being built
15:33	bosie	anyone in here has the peepcode clojure screencast?
15:33	rhickey	also TBD - should procs have different arg order from other refs? (>> op aproc) vs (alter aref op)
15:34	rhickey	eases procifying
15:34	Licenser	any ideas how to get more information out fo clojure what went wrong?
15:35	bosie	or anyone know about phil hagelberg and/or the quality he normally delivers? :)
15:35	chouser	would peek be useful for anything other than transients?
15:36	rhickey	chouser: ideally one wouldn't know if a true transient was held, and would want to use a proc correctly in any case
15:37	rhickey	also, without it you must deref which might cause value to be produced
15:37	chouser	but doesn't peek start to get into implementation details? more than just deref/alter do.
15:37	chouser	I mean, if the cell isn't holding a transient, what would peek return?
15:38	rhickey	peek takes an accessor fn, it is not a deref of the entire thing
15:38	rhickey	so peek returns what that fn returns, e.g. count
15:38	rhickey	(<< count aproc)
15:38	chouser	oh, (peek a-cell count) ?
15:38	chouser	ok
15:38	rhickey	at not point are transients released to outside world in this model
15:38	rhickey	no point
15:39	chouser	ok. But count operates on the transient directly?
15:39	rhickey	there are some open qs about how much a transient might/not conform to the value's api.
15:39	chouser	ok
15:39	rhickey	e.g. String and StringBuilder
15:40	Chousuke	hm, I really want alphanumeric names for those functions, but I can't think of anything suitable :/
15:40	rhickey	chouser: yes, peek/<< acts on transient
15:41	Chousuke	all good names are so overloaded.
15:41	lpetit	I had the "mental image" for "cell" in place. I don't understand why "proc" ?
15:41	rhickey	I'm not sure I will put it in the first pass, but think peek is unavoidable
15:41	rhickey	lpetit: proc(ess)
15:41	Chousuke	or too long :P
15:41	rhickey	lpetit: still might end up cell, thus this discussion
15:41	chouser	proc isn't too pad. proc-hook for the access policy thingies?
15:42	chouser	proc-peek
15:42	chouser	...aaaand proc-alter. There, done! :-)
15:42	rhickey	In my first go-round, cells had locks. Now they have access policies that might or might not involve locks, so cell/lock doesn't quite work
15:42	chouser	oh, access policy != hook
15:42	Chousuke	proc-apply if the op goes first. :/
15:42	lpetit	so what exactly will an access policy look like ?
15:43	Chousuke	but that's a bit long for something you would be doing continuously.
15:43	rhickey	(make-single-hreaded-proc-access-policy)
15:43	Chousuke	or perhaps you can do (proc-apply (comp foo bar) x)
15:43	rhickey	(make-multi-threaded-proc-access-policy)
15:44	rhickey	(make-proc apolicy aval)
15:44	lpetit	I like "jail". Not overloaded, easy to remember metaphore.
15:45	rhickey	jails are punitive
15:45	lpetit	well, "not overloaded" ...
15:46	abrooks	Rather than worrying about overloaded terms I think language designers should just create their own vocabulary for off-the-beaten-path functions/interfaces/etc.: qwub, blurf, voop...
15:46	abrooks	Provide a glossary and Bob's your uncle!
15:46	Chousuke	!
15:46	Chousuke	don't make all my example code executable all of a sudden!
15:47	rhickey	one possible name for the access policy is 'sentry'
15:47	abrooks	Hehe!
15:47	rhickey	then cell+sentry still works
15:47	lpetit	"jail is punitive": yeah, all the point of clojure is to punish "he who uses mutable states" :-)
15:47	hiredman	cellar
15:48	lpetit	just kidding
15:48	Licenser	hmm how can it happen that there is no backtrace?
15:48	ordnungswidrig1	in unix speak there is chroot
15:48	rhickey	lpetit: kidding aside, I wonder if that is really Clojure's point. Clojure is more about making the state model correct and safe, never has been about avoiding it
15:49	lpetit	rhickey: yes, I regretted the kidding words at the exact second I hit Enter
15:49	chouser	I think if you wanted to punish the use of state you would invent something more like a monad.
15:49	rhickey	chouser: exactly
15:49	lpetit	chouser : rofl
15:50	abrooks	chouser: I thought C++ had automatic punishment for using state...
15:50	lpetit	ok, so indeed, the notion of punishing is to be avoided
15:50	Chousuke	I think process fits pretty well as a name, especially if there are to be policies as well.
15:50	chouser	C++ includes punishment for being a programmer.
15:50	rhickey	also, these things are decidedly multi-threading oriented, whereas monads...
15:50	Chousuke	I doubt anyone will confuse it with OS processes :/
15:50	chouser	Chousuke: yes, I agree.
15:51	lpetit	fridge ? :-p
15:51	rhickey	a key feature of cells will be supporting multiple effectors of a single process
15:51	chouser	as long as no proc-policy will support actual simultaneous updates to the value(s)...
15:52	rhickey	what is a simultaneous update?
15:52	hiredman	cord
15:53	Chousuke	rhickey: a coordination failure? :)
15:54	chouser	an object with multiple mutable fields?
15:55	chouser	my point being if the operations on the cell aren't completely serialized, the calling it a "process" starts to feel wrong.
15:56	rhickey	chouser: it can get grey esp when you consider the use of a j.u.c.collection as the transient
15:57	rhickey	as much serialization as is needed for consistency is used, but not necessarily totally serial
15:58	rhickey	nesting is also an interesting question. Right now, the sentries act as factories for cells and sentries are passed to the transient fn, so the transient could created nested cells controlled by the same sentry
15:58	hiredman	cord: a line made of twisted fibers or threads; "the bundle was tied with a cord"
15:59	rhickey	hiredman: but a single-threaded cord doesn't quite fit
16:00	hiredman	but it's not single threaded, as you said "as much serialization as is needed"
16:00	rhickey	chouser: but yes, in general the cells ensure serialized access, although multiple threads can participate in the creation of the 'next' value
16:00	rhickey	hiredman: there will be single threaded sentries
16:01	neotyk	where I can read about cell/fridge/proc/... ?
16:01	chouser	neotyk: IRC logs. :-]
16:01	neotyk	can't scroll that far :-o
16:02	neotyk	clojurebot: where is log
16:02	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
16:02	hiredman	clojurebot: logs?
16:02	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
16:02	neotyk	hiredman: thanks
16:02	Chousuke	rhickey: so are these things going to completely replace transients as they exist now?
16:02	rhickey	as far as >>/<<, I want something that makes cell-ification of existing functional code easy and relatively transparent
16:02	rhickey	Chousuke: yes
16:04	rhickey	so, we I something short, and need some feedback on arg order
16:04	arohner	rhickey: my only opinion on naming is to use words rather than symbols. I greatly prefer a word over << or >>. Or if the symbols are present, make them optional, like deref/@
16:04	rhickey	arohner: ok, needs to be short and to get out of the way
16:05	arohner	rhickey: sure. I don't know enough about the feature you're working on to propose a good name. :-)
16:05	lpetit	if you follow the cell/sentry metaphor, what would be the word for peek ?
16:05	rhickey	you'll have code like (assoc m k v) (count m) becoming => (cell-alter assoc m k v) (cell-peek count m)
16:05	Chousuke	you can peek into a cell I suppose
16:05	chouser	to look into the cell without changing it in any way
16:06	Chousuke	"observe" is perhaps too long :/
16:06	rhickey	peek already defined for stacks
16:06	jasapp	I'm out of the loop, are transients not working well in their current state?
16:06	jasapp	or rather, what's the reason for the change?
16:06	rhickey	jasapp: they can be better, and will be soon
16:06	lpetit	and also, you don't do it by yourself, you ask the sentry to get some data about the cell's content for you
16:07	jasapp	gotcha
16:07	rhickey	lpetit: but the sentry is embedded in the cell, not an argument to these
16:07	Chousuke	"query" might be good but I don't think you can take that name :P
16:07	rhickey	lpetit: but true, internally these requests go through the sentry
16:07	chouser	I like cell-alter. I think if a synonym of >> was provided, people would eventually settle on cell-alter anyway.
16:07	lpetit	rhickey: yes I was just thinking about the metaphore
16:08	rhickey	chouser: really? would be an interesting experiment :)
16:08	lpetit	look-for
16:08	chouser	though maybe "alter" isn't so good considerting the (good, I think) different arg order.
16:08	lpetit	what is the verb you english natives use when a you tell your dog to go find and get back the bone/wood ?
16:08	chouser	"fetch"
16:08	rhickey	chouser: one key reason not to use alter or any variant thereof is the semantics here are different. alter takes a pure fn of val-to-val
16:09	rhickey	cells can take arbitrary side-effecting fns, and will ensure once-only semantics
16:09	Chousuke	I think cell-apply might be okay then
16:09	lpetit	so could fetch be the name for "peek" ?
16:10	Chousuke	though hm, it would be subtly different from plain apply :(
16:10	opqdonut	can somebody give me a one-line description of cells?
16:10	chouser	opqdonut: probably not. I'll see if I can get you a log link
16:12	opqdonut	how long ago would that be?
16:12	lpetit	opqdonut: a controlled place (cell) in which one will be able to mutate things at will in order to finally produce a new (immutable) value. Access to the cell will have controlled semantics (one thread at a time, ...) ... but that's certainly incomplete / partially wrong
16:12	chouser	opqdonut: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-01-22.html#09:22a
16:12	Licenser	gar
16:13	rhickey	a cell is a new reference type that arbitrates the possibly multi-step/multi-threaded process of producing a new value
16:13	lpetit	cell-alter -> "shape" ? "mould" ? "mold" ?
16:13	rhickey	because it is process aware, it can leverage transients
16:14	rhickey	what about cell-> and cell-< ?
16:14	neotyk	hiredman:
16:14	rhickey	(cell-> assoc m k v) (cell-< count m)
16:14	hiredman	neotyk:
16:14	Chousuke	if you're going to do that, I suggest cell>> and cell<<
16:14	lpetit	neotyk, hiredman:
16:14	Chousuke	the -< looks kind of ugly :/
16:14	chouser	so... cell-> is for chaning the value in a cell, and cell-< is for getting the value out? seems ... backwards
16:15	chouser	<<cell and cell>> ?
16:15	stuartsierra	What's wrong with put/get?
16:15	chouser	er
16:15	chouser	sorry, I meant: <<cell and >>cell for apply and peek
16:15	rhickey	stuartsierra: without prefixes?
16:16	chouser	wrong again. <<cell for peek and >>cell for apply
16:16	rhickey	chouser: I don't see it
16:16	rhickey	ah
16:16	chouser	sorry. reduces the weight of my argument if I can't even get it right. :-P
16:17	chouser	those will look like bit-shift to many
16:17	rhickey	chouser: true
16:17	stuartsierra	get-cell, put-cell, whatever, just something English
16:17	opqdonut	lpetit: ah yes, I see
16:17	opqdonut	kinda like haskell's ST
16:17	ordnungswidrig1	in/out
16:17	stuartsierra	But I'm way behind on this whole cells conversation anyway
16:18	lpetit	opqdonut: please also refer to rich's more precise def he just wrote above
16:19	opqdonut	what about transients?
16:19	Chousuke	opqdonut: they will be replaced
16:20	opqdonut	ok
16:20	opqdonut	so we'll have vars, refs, atoms and cells or will some of those be subsumed?
16:20	kotarak	transients? replaced?
16:20	rhickey	I would almost go for 'in' if the arg order was same as other references (in acell assoc k v)
16:21	rhickey	kotarak: transients will be used only inside cells
16:21	rhickey	kotarak: but such use will be automatic, safer, potentially multithreaded etc
16:21	kotarak	Ah. Something new. Clojure sure is moving fast. I'm loosing track..... :/
16:22	opqdonut	indeed
16:22	rhickey	my biggest concern with these names is the conversion of proper functional code. The transient story was very good here, and cells should strive to be as good
16:22	rhickey	transients -> add transient/persistent! and some !s
16:23	rhickey	if the cells story is add cell-this/cell-that to every call, and possibly change arg order...
16:23	rhickey	bleh
16:24	qed	is it possible to install the jvm, ant or maven, in a user's $HOME dir without root?
16:24	opqdonut	the jvm, sure
16:24	opqdonut	just extract the archive
16:24	opqdonut	you have to use the JAVA_HOME environment variable or whatever it was though
16:25	chouser	rhickey: the arg order story is important. is that part of why puncutation feels better to you than a name like the other ref types?
16:25	lpetit	qed: sure
16:25	rhickey	chouser: I guess
16:25	qed	ah, cool -- any suggestions for a skinny jvm?
16:25	stuartsierra	qed: It's like installing any package locally: unpack, compile, modify some environment variables like $PATH and $JAVA_HOME
16:25	qed	er rather, recommendations
16:25	stuartsierra	qed: There's no such thing as a skinny JVM.
16:25	rhickey	chouser: but I'd be amenable to a good short name
16:25	qed	stuartsierra: had to ask :)
16:26	jkkramer	so using cells would be something like (>> conj v i) instead of (conj! v i) ?
16:26	chouser	plain punctuation seems too "universal" to have meaning only with a specific reference type.
16:26	stuartsierra	qed: Some are lighter than Sun's, but they lack the same level of features & optimizations.
16:26	rhickey	jkkramer: right
16:26	chouser	(>>cell conj v i)
16:26	chouser	eh. :-/
16:27	Chousuke	(in-cell conj v i)
16:28	rhickey	chouser: no, v is the cell
16:28	chouser	yes. what did I say?
16:29	Chousuke	so (in-cell v conj i)? :P
16:29	chouser	oh, I meant (defn >>cell [v i] ...)
16:29	rhickey	heh, you're right, I saw >>cell as 2 words :)
16:29	chouser	but I agree it's confusing. hence "eh. :-/"
16:29	kotarak	(conj-cell v i)
16:29	hiredman	you could just use !
16:29	hiredman	(! conj v i)
16:30	rhickey	hiredman: if we go pure non-words, >> and << will win out
16:30	rhickey	so we're looking for words
16:30	Chousuke	hiredman: But that won't actually destroy anything visible to you.
16:30	LauJensen	I wonder how much harder it is to dive into Clojure today, with the heavy use of -> ->> -?> -?>> and so on
16:30	ordnungswidrig	>> is very c++ for me. (which I do not consider a good thing)
16:30	rhickey	note that mt-cells will have all of their calls inside an (inside [cell1 cell2...] ...) block
16:31	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: as a relative clojure newbie I find it confusing.
16:31	qed	blast -- C-s is broken in emacs inside a screen session -- was just working.. hmm
16:31	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: What I figured, we're slowly becoming the lispy perl version
16:31	rhickey	LauJensen: that's the fault of -?> and -?>> - ick
16:31	ordnungswidrig	people complain about lisp having all that parenthesis.
16:32	lpetit	ordnungswidrig: is it he who is named 'ordnungswidrig' which says -> is confusing ? :-p
16:32	LauJensen	rhickey: I just saw ! proposed as an fn right? It doesnt get more obscure than that
16:32	ordnungswidrig	people will complain about clojure having all kinds of parenthesis: () [] {} <>
16:32	Chousuke	rhickey: Will calls to a cell return a new cell object to be used in later calls? Or are you going to allow imperative style mods?
16:32	lpetit	woops
16:33	rhickey	Chousuke: imperative style will be supported just like for all reference types
16:33	lpetit	but -?> is not very visible at first when coming to clojure
16:33	rhickey	cell-do ?
16:33	rhickey	do-cell ?
16:33	qed	how about (.oO cell conj v i) ;)
16:33	ordnungswidrig	there are sill parenthesis left for cell in/out: «»〔〕‹›⎡⎦
16:33	lpetit	it's not the cell you're altering
16:34	kotarak	in-cell!
16:34	opqdonut	insel :)
16:34	ordnungswidrig	ic
16:34	kotarak	freitag!
16:34	jkkramer	(cell-call conj v i), (cellify conj v i)
16:34	kotarak	cell!
16:34	qed	(chamber conj v i)
16:34	rhickey	(inside [c] (in-cell! assoc c k v)), not quite right
16:35	qed	(dungeon conj v i)
16:35	ordnungswidrig	within
16:35	Chousuke	(prison-break! cell conj i) :P
16:35	qed	haha
16:35	rhickey	ordnungswidrig: in and within better with different arg order
16:35	qed	(cytoplasm conj v i)
16:35	stuartsierra	cellish
16:36	qed	(cellize
16:36	LauJensen	rhickey: I might need to look at the log, but isnt there a way to simply use the same names as on transients, like assoc!, and then have that fn test what its been used on ?
16:36	kotarak	(inside [c] (cellic assoc) c k v)
16:36	rhickey	LauJensen: no
16:37	jkkramer	(inside [c foobar] (foobar assoc k v))
16:37	ordnungswidrig	rhickey: I said the other day clojure would not be developer by voting. I never would have thought I was developed my collective irc brainstorming ;-)
16:37	ordnungswidrig	jkkramer: making it customizable?
16:37	jkkramer	oops, (foobar assoc c k v)
16:38	rhickey	ordnungswidrig: I like to get input on names, the design has taken me weeks
16:38	Chousuke	using the cell itself as a function might be interesting
16:38	Chousuke	but that's different from the other ref types :/
16:38	qed	rhickey: whether you actually want a name or not please ask -- it's always fun to talk about these sorts of things. you do all the work, and we name it! ;)
16:38	rhickey	pass/fetch ?
16:39	rhickey	(pass assoc mcell k v)
16:39	rhickey	(fetch count mcell)
16:39	ordnungswidrig	qed: hehe. It's like other getting a baby and making fun naming suggestions
16:39	Chousuke	that sounds okay
16:39	chouser	that's not bad
16:39	Chousuke	pass is perhaps not optimal but better than anything so far :)
16:40	rhickey	Chousuke: pass has a lot of matching connotations
16:40	qed	"give" "take" ?
16:40	lpetit	(inside [c] (pass assoc c k v) (fetch count c))
16:40	rhickey	lpetit: right
16:40	lpetit	qed: no, "take" conveys the meaning of removing smthing
16:40	rhickey	single-threaded code won't have inside
16:41	lpetit	rhickey: oh
16:41	qed	lpetit: give/grab?
16:41	kotarak	lift/retrieve
16:41	qed	kotarak: not so hot on retrieve, but i like lift
16:42	stuartsierra	entomb/exhume
16:42	qed	grab/grope? heh
16:42	rhickey	I don't understand lift
16:42	qed	err give/grope rather
16:42	Chousuke	qed: that sounds monadic :P
16:43	chouser	a very earthy language with words like slurp, spit, and grope
16:43	qed	rhickey: i liked lift in the second position, as in grab, fetch, exhume, etc.
16:43	stuartsierra	CLU used up/down, albeit for different purpose
16:43	Chousuke	cells kind of remind me of the "container" explanation of monads.
16:43	ordnungswidrig	have peek and poke already been mentioned?
16:43	stuartsierra	already used
16:44	stuartsierra	or they imply stacks
16:44	chouser	'peek' is already for stacks and queues
16:44	stuartsierra	peep/prod?
16:44	qed	chouser: wait til 'fondle' is added
16:44	rhickey	ok, please make serious counterproposals to cell/sentry/pass/fetch/inside
16:44	stuartsierra	those are fine
16:44	lpetit	wrap/unwrap .. ?
16:44	opqdonut	hmm, why isn't http://clojure.org/transients linked to the menu on the left side?
16:45	chouser	inside is dynamic scope, not liexical?
16:45	opqdonut	because they're somewhat experimental?
16:45	rhickey	chouser: yes
16:45	opqdonut	anyway, I wasn't even aware of them before this discussion... :(
16:45	chouser	then perhaps with-cells instead?
16:45	rhickey	within-cells?
16:45	chouser	yes
16:46	rhickey	cell/sentry/pass/fetch/within-cells
16:47	chouser	with << and >> as synonmys to see what wins out?
16:47	rhickey	chouser: nah
16:47	opqdonut	about transients: is (do (conj! v 0) (conj! v 1)) an error, undefined behaviour, or something else?
16:47	qed	i dont love pass/fetch, but that's just me
16:47	lpetit	cell/sentry/feed/fetch/within-cells
16:48	rhickey	qed: how do you get something to someone in a cell?
16:48	lpetit	opqdonut: an error
16:48	qed	you give it to them
16:48	opqdonut	run-time?
16:48	clojurebot	what time \is it? is TIME TO GIT BUSY!
16:48	rhickey	qed: but there's a sentry
16:48	chouser	opqdonut: incorrect code. I guess you could say "undefined" in that no exception is thrown and behvior depends on other things.
16:48	qed	toss?
16:49	opqdonut	chouser: that's kinda bad, as that's an easy error to make
16:49	rhickey	in-cells?
16:49	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
16:49	opqdonut	but I see the implementation angle, too :)
16:50	qed	rhickey: as opposed to within-cells?
16:50	rhickey	a sentry has to let you pass, you pass things to people
16:50	rhickey	qed: right
16:50	lpetit	rhickey: are we really in the cell or just in the corridor ?
16:50	chouser	isn't a collection of multiple cells a jail? in-jail
16:50	rhickey	lpetit: really, it turns the cells into a temporary cell-block
16:51	chouser	in-prison
16:51	lpetit	ok, must leave, cu guys
16:51	chouser	sorry. being silly again. "in-cells" is ok, better than "inside"
16:51	kotarak	panopticum
16:51	rhickey	things pass through cell membranes, if you take the biology metaphor
16:52	rhickey	cell/sentry/pass/fetch/in-cells
16:52	qed	rhickey: a sentry lets you pass, but you are accessing a cell
16:52	kotarak	diffuse
16:52	qed	access?
16:52	Chousuke	reach?
16:52	chouser	I like the arg-order with "pass", where the direct object is the fn and the indirect object the cell
16:53	Chousuke	that's closer to fetch I guess :/
16:53	rhickey	chouser: right
16:53	qed	access/visit?
16:53	kotarak	osmose
16:53	chouser	fetch. fetch what? (fetch count ...)
16:53	Chousuke	send would be excellent but it's taken... :P
16:53	kotarak	reverse-osmose
16:54	rhickey	Chousuke: send not better than pass IMO
16:54	qed	cell/sentry/access/visit/in-cells
16:54	rhickey	let's try to keep the S/N ratio high, please :)
16:55	rhickey	looking now only for things better than fetch, perhaps touching on the smuggling out nature of these reads
16:55	rhickey	biab
16:57	kotarak	run
16:57	qed	no good
16:57	kotarak	bootleg
16:58	kotarak	qed: why is run no good?
16:58	qed	it means too many different things
16:58	kotarak	call
16:58	qed	synonyms of smuggle are not ideal *(at least from your osx dictionary ;)
16:58	kotarak	(call count cell)
17:00	qed	smuggle means both to import or export, or to 'convey or introduce cladestinely' -- in that sense i dont think it suggests what is going on. are we smuggling in, or smuggling out?
17:00	jkkramer	peer?
17:00	qed	spy?
17:00	ordnungswidrig	beam?
17:01	kotarak	qed: I would suspect smuggling out
17:01	qed	kotarak: not a heroin mule, eh?
17:01	qed	how about "scout"?
17:01	qed	i like that a lot
17:05	Chousuke	spy would be fun :P
17:12	technomancy	why aren't namespaces Named?
17:12	chouser	hardly anything is named. just symbols and keywords I think. :-/
17:12	technomancy	I see
17:12	chouser	I wish Vars and namespaces were
17:13	kotarak	ns-name is also a symbol, no? Not a string.
17:13	stuartsierra	kotarak: correct
17:13	hiredman	vars may or may not be named, so making them Named was felt to be odd
17:13	kotarak	chouser: not every var has a name. eg. Compile/LINE or so.
17:14	chouser	not every symbol has a namespace, but 'namespace' still works
17:14	technomancy	hiredman: ah, good point. but can you have anonymous namespaces?
17:14	hiredman	technomancy: I would say no, but I haven't looked at Namespace.java
17:14	kotarak	(doc create-namespace)
17:14	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:14	kotarak	(doc create-ns)
17:14	clojurebot	"([sym]); Create a new namespace named by the symbol if one doesn't already exist, returns it or the already-existing namespace of the same name."
17:15	hiredman	chouser: true
17:15	technomancy	kotarak: looks pretty named to me. =)
17:15	kotarak	technomancy: but with a symbol not a string
17:16	hiredman	,(doc ns-name)
17:16	clojurebot	"([ns]); Returns the name of the namespace, a symbol."
17:16	hiredman	hmm
17:16	technomancy	no reason why namedness shouldn't be transitive in that case
17:16	kotarak	technomancy: or why namespaces should be named by a symbol instead of a string...
17:17	hiredman	kotarak: or namespaces could be named by a symbol and return that symbol's name
17:18	technomancy	it's pretty nit-picky, but it would be convenient
17:18	lpetit	rhickey: on the "beast" theme - powerful thing but to be used with care : cage/tamer/[feed\|nurture\|fill]/[inspect\|control]/within-cages
17:19	kotarak	refer-clojure does not support :as? pff...
17:20	hiredman	kotarak: as is alias, refer is use
17:20	kotarak	hiredman: use supports :as.
17:20	jkkramer	there's rename
17:21	jkkramer	(ns foo.bar (:refer-clojure :rename {print core-print}))
17:22	kotarak	jkkramer: (ns foo (:refer-clojure :exclude (...)) (:alias core clojure.core)) works
17:24	hiredman	why does use support :as?
17:25	kotarak	dunno, but it's useful.
17:25	hiredman	how?
17:25	clojurebot	with style and grace
17:25	rhickey	I'm back, any brilliant alternatives to fetch?
17:26	kotarak	(ns foo (:use [bar :only (defbar) :as b]))
17:26	brennanc	I'm trying to get slime working with clojure. I get the REPL but the modeline says "inferior-lisp" and it doesn't do the function parameter hinting like I've seen in the slime screencasts)
17:26	hiredman	kotarak: and what does that do?
17:26	kotarak	hiredman: It "uses" defbar and defines an alias b.
17:27	brennanc	the modeline in the screencast I am watching shows "slime-repl clojure" so it looks like I'm not doing something right
17:30	technomancy	brennanc: inferior-lisp just means you have a CLI repl running in a subprocess; it doesn't mean you're using slime at all.
17:31	brennanc	I did M-x slime and it seemed to do something
17:31	brennanc	I get the user=> prompt
17:31	brennanc	what am I doing wrong?
17:32	brennanc	I followed the instructions on http://riddell.us/tutorial/slime_swank/slime_swank.html
17:32	technomancy	brennanc: those instructions are really out of date; try the instructions in the swank-clojure readme
17:32	jkkramer	rhickey: report? view?
17:32	technomancy	that page just won't die. =\
17:32	ska2342	brennanc: sorry for being late, what problem do you have?
17:33	brennanc	no kidding, I had the same problem with common lisp and none of the stuff I googled working. lol
17:33	kotarak	rhickey: call
17:33	brennanc	I'll check out the readme, thanks
17:33	jkkramer	"spy" was also mentioned
17:33	kotarak	and scout
17:33	technomancy	brennanc: swank-clojure is actually really easy to install, it's just that there's an abundance of bad instructions out there.
17:36	brennanc	hmm seems like it fails on the Contrib compiling
17:36	brennanc	Buildfile: build.xml does not exist!
17:36	brennanc	Build failed
17:37	brennanc	but I already have all the clojure stuff good to go
17:37	technomancy	brennanc: you don't need to compile contrib
17:37	technomancy	pretty much ever
17:37	brennanc	following the docs in swank-clojure README
17:38	brennanc	I ran M-x clojure-install and then it downloaded clojure and then looks like it failed on the build
17:38	xp_prg	I require mentorship
17:38	brennanc	if I can just set it up with my current clojure environment that would be much better but I don't see anything that tells me how to do that
17:38	technomancy	brennanc: http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure is the correct source
17:38	technomancy	jochu's fork is abandoned. =\
17:39	dysinger	clojurebot: is hiredman around?
17:39	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:39	abrenk	technomancy: I just wonderd why in src/leiningen/jar.clj: :path (format "meta-inf/maven/%s/%s/pom.xml" it is not META-INF?
17:42	hiredman	dysinger: in and out
17:42	ska2342	Can anybody tell me why print-meta is only observed by pr and prn but not by print and println? It took me quite a while to find out why my examples didn't work.
17:44	ska2342	is it the distinction between "print ... for human consumption" and "print in a way ... can be read by the reader"?
17:45	guridosul	any special reason why "alter" names the function parameters as "fun" while others I've seen so far (map, apply...) names it as "f"?
17:46	guridosul	user=> (doc alter) ------------------------- clojure.core/alter ([ref fun & args])
17:46	guridosul	user=> (doc map) ------------------------- clojure.core/map ([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls])
17:47	brehaut	hi all
17:49	brennanc	technomancy: I followed he instructions on the link you gave me but when I run M-x slime it still gives me inferior-lisp
17:49	hoeck	ska2342: exactly
17:50	hoeck	brennanc: have you tried m-x slime-repl?
17:50	ska2342	hoeck: it might deserve some honorable mentioon in the docs, but anyway... :-)
17:50	brennanc	it can't find it
17:50	brennanc	"no match"
17:51	brennanc	package-list-packages says that slime-repl is installed
17:53	hoeck	brennanc: I have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-repl)) in my .emacs.d
17:53	dysinger	hiredman: yo
17:53	dysinger	around?
17:54	hoeck	brennanc: at some point, slime devs decided to make the slime-repl optional
17:54	brennanc	I'm deleting everything and going to try again, maybe some old config is messing something up
17:54	hoeck	brennanc: try m-x slime-interactive-eval, and then type some clojure code
17:55	brennanc	should I install slime and slime-repl before installing the swank-clojure package?
17:58	brennanc	I'm getting an error: swank-clojure.el:48:1:Error: Cannot open load file: clojure-mode
17:58	brennanc	but when I look in the package list it says it is installed
18:00	brennanc	theres also this error when I type M-x slime
18:00	brennanc	Debugger entered: (("Error in timer" slime-attempt-connection (#<process inferior-lisp> nil 2) (file-error "make client process failed" "Co$
18:00	brennanc	byte-code("\303\304\305^H \nF\"\207" [fun args data debug nil "Error in timer"] 6)
18:00	hoeck	brennanc: that means emacs cannot find the clojure-mode.el file
18:01	hoeck	brennanc: wich in turn means that something with the package-manager wrent wrong
18:01	brennanc	where are the docs to install all this manually, the ELPA route is buggy and doesn't seem to work
18:06	hoeck	brennanc: there is http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/README.md, "installing from source"
18:11	hiredman	dysinger: yes
18:26	icey	I'm messing around with Compojure, and I'm doing something wrong that I can't seem to figure out. I'm doing: (alter session assoc :name username)
18:26	icey	I'm getting clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Ref
18:26	icey	as a result
18:27	hiredman	icey: I don't think session is a ref
18:27	hiredman	you have to use some special session-assoc function
18:28	icey	ahh, i was wondering about that. I saw some funky thing about that but was hoping I could do it the old-fashioned way that all the documentation out there currently uses
18:32	brennanc	swank-clojure seems to work in emacs 22 on my mac, but not emacs 23 on gentoo linux
18:32	icey	hiredman: thanks, that looks like what it was
18:32	brennanc	can't figure out why
18:32	qbg	brennanc: Doesn't work how?
18:33	brennanc	when I run M-x slime it gives the following errors:
18:33	brennanc	Debugger entered: (("Error in timer" slime-attempt-connection (#<process inferior-lisp> nil 2) (file-error "make client process failed" "Co$
18:33	brennanc	byte-code("\303\304\305^H \nF\"\207" [fun args data debug nil "Error in timer"] 6)
18:33	brennanc	slime-timer-call(slime-attempt-connection #<process inferior-lisp> nil 2)
18:33	brennanc	apply(slime-timer-call (slime-attempt-connection #<process inferior-lisp> nil 2))
18:33	brennanc	byte-code("\301^H\302H^H\303H\"\207" [timer apply 5 6] 4)
18:33	brennanc	timer-event-handler([t 19321 55542 468739 0.3 slime-timer-call (slime-attempt-connection #<process inferior-lisp> nil 2) nil])
18:33	brennanc	I don't see that on OS X
18:35	qbg	That doesn't look like a swank-clojure error to me
18:36	qbg	You can run Clojure normally, correct?
18:36	hiredman	brennanc: is the jvm being started?
18:37	brennanc	where does swank-clojure install clojure to? I deleted my install because I was trying to start fresh because nothing else was working
18:37	brennanc	are there other steps I need to do before or after that aren't document in swank-clojure
18:37	brennanc	am I missing something else?
18:38	qbg	Take a look in ~/.swank-clojure
18:38	brennanc	qbg: I see the jars and can bring up the repl from the command line with java -cp ... clojure.main
18:39	qbg	Post your .emacs somewhere
18:39	japowl	I'm wrapping some javalibs that return HashMaps, and I want them converted to clojure hash-maps. Right now I do (#(zipmap (map keyword (.keySet %)) (.values %)) javaHashMap) which works fine, but I wonder if theres a more ideomatic way or even some contrib lib I might be missing?
18:40	brennanc	http://brennancheung.com/.emacs
18:41	qbg	What does (swank-clojure-cmd) evaluate to?
18:42	tomoj	,(let [hm (doto (java.util.HashMap.) (.put :foo "bar"))] (into {} hm))
18:42	clojurebot	{:foo "bar"}
18:42	tomoj	japowl: ^
18:42	hiredman	brennanc: in ps output can you see the jvm that swank launches?
18:42	brennanc	qbg: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: swank-clojure-cmd in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:7)
18:42	qbg	Inside emacs
18:43	brennanc	hiredman: ps output?
18:43	brennanc	hiredman: I don't see anything about JVM messages when I try to run slime from emacs
18:43	hiredman	brennanc: ps auxwww
18:43	japowl	tomoj: hahaha, thanks! man, I was so sure I had tried exactly that
18:44	hiredman	brennanc: right, so it sounds like it launches the jvm but fails to connect and a timeout happens and you get an error
18:44	tomoj	of course,
18:44	tomoj	,(class (let [hm (doto (java.util.HashMap.) (.put :foo "bar"))] (into {} hm)))
18:44	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
18:44	hiredman	but I won't to check and see if it is actually starting the jvm
18:44	tomoj	but I didn't figure you really cared whether it was a hash-map
18:44	hiredman	want to
18:44	brennanc	looks like it is launching the sun-jdk-1.6
18:45	brennanc	let me paste it online
18:46	brennanc	http://brennancheung.com/temp.txt
18:46	japowl	tomoj: no that's exactly what I wanted, but didn't the obvious ways to work and ended up with the hideous zipmap-version.
18:46	hiredman	brennanc: can you see the java process listening on a port?
18:46	hiredman	socket, whatever
18:47	brennanc	not sure, how can I check?
18:47	hiredman	does linux have a sockstat command?
18:48	brennanc	doesn't look like it, not that I can find
18:49	brennanc	I don't see anything under netstat
18:49	brennanc	I can get the inferior-lisp and it does let me run some things, but it isn't the full clojure environment
18:50	brennanc	what's this timer it is mentioning?
18:51	brennanc	I added it to http://brennancheung.com/temp.txt so you can see the full error easier
18:52	hiredman	I imagine there is same time out if the elisp part of swank doesn't connect to the clojure part of swank in X seconds it throws a wobly
18:53	qbg	If you start swank-clojure separately, can you connect to it?
18:55	hiredman	I wonder why it doesn't show up in net/sock/etcstat
18:55	qbg	Well, it looks like it is never getting to the point of launching the swank server
18:56	brennanc	I can type clojure and it runs it, so it is doing something
18:57	brennanc	so I'm not sure what exactly I'm running
18:58	brennanc	what is the difference between the jochu and technomancy versions?
18:58	brennanc	are the the same?
18:58	qbg	Use technomancy's
18:58	hiredman	jochu's is way old
18:59	brennanc	what about these instructions?
18:59	brennanc	http://lifeofaprogrammergeek.blogspot.com/2009/03/learning-clojure-and-emacs.html
19:00	hiredman	oh
19:00	hiredman	those were old in 2008
19:00	hiredman	dunno how those could be instructions for 2009, let alone 2010
19:01	hiredman	clojure used to be in svn at google code, and kevinoneill had a git mirror on github, but clojure long ago moved to github
19:02	hiredman	clojurebot: github?
19:02	clojurebot	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/master
19:02	hiredman	^-
19:02	qbg	You could take a look at these instructions: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/clojure-101-getting-clojure-slime-installed/
19:02	hiredman	http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure <-- or the ones here
19:03	Raynes	java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
19:03	Raynes	Oh boy, and only 200 lines of code to dig through to find the source.
19:03	qbg	Raynes: This is why you have stack traces
19:03	Raynes	qbg: Yeah, they aren't helpful here.
19:04	qbg	Lazy sequences getting in the way?
19:04	Raynes	No, they're just completely gibberish.
19:05	brennanc	I've been through both sets of those instructions before I even started asking around here. no luck
19:05	boojum	,(apply str (rest (str :foo)))
19:05	clojurebot	"foo"
19:06	hiredman	,(name :foo)
19:06	clojurebot	"foo"
19:06	boojum	hiredman, thanks!
19:14	brennanc	I put together a screenshot of the problem I am having getting swank-clojure up and running. maybe someone will be able to spot the problem easier because something might have been lost in translation earlier.
19:14	brennanc	http://brennancheung.com/swank.gif
19:14	brennanc	you can see some of the stuff runs but stuff like C-c I doesn't bring up the inspector
19:14	qbg	Try M-x slime-connect
19:15	qbg	The port swank is running on is weird
19:15	brennanc	connection refused if I try the defaults
19:15	brennanc	make client process failed: Connection refused, :name, SLIME Lisp, :buffer, nil, :host, 127.0.0.1, :service, 4005
19:15	qbg	Choose 59226 as the port
19:16	brennanc	qbg: same
19:17	brennanc	how can I start the server component by itself?
19:18	qbg	If you run swank.swank, it should bring up the connection
19:18	qbg	Of course you are going to need to set the classpath correctly
19:19	brennanc	is that a java class or M-x command?
19:19	qbg	java class
19:19	qbg	Just edit the first line of your http://brennancheung.com/temp.txt
19:19	qbg	Remove the "clojure.main --repl" and replace with "swank.swank"
19:20	qbg	Or if you have Leiningen, just configure a project to support lein swank
19:21	brennanc	class not found
19:21	qbg	swank-clojure is on the classpath?
19:21	brennanc	when I open up the swank-clojure.jar I don't see a single .class or .java file in there
19:22	qbg	Weird
19:22	brennanc	yes, it's in the classpath
19:23	brennanc	is there some custom class-loader that loads the .clj files, because otherwise I don't see any way adding the swank.jar would do anything
19:23	brennanc	there's no java class files in there
19:24	hiredman	qbg: are you sure swank.swank is a java class?
19:24	qbg	I can launch swank.swank
19:25	hiredman	shrug
19:25	qbg	If you could try building swank-clojure yourself as an uberjar
19:25	qbg	Then just run the jar
19:26	qbg	Well, I have to go
19:30	Raynes	I just fixed that bug I mentioned earlier by accident. I still don't know what was wrong. >:\|
19:34	Raynes	"Java is one of the most popular up-and-rising languages that is currently out there."
19:34	jeld	hello, I seem to be having problem with duck-streams, are they renamed in the current version?
19:36	Raynes	jeld: It's io now.
19:37	Raynes	It would be nice to have a new contrib 1.2.0 master build up there, since it's pointless to write code using the old names now.
19:38	jeld	Raynes: thanks
19:47	brennanc	hmm, anybody else running swank-clojure on gentoo?
19:48	brennanc	I've tried it on both os x and centos and they seem to install/run fine, but gentoo doesn't seem to work
20:43	abrenk	brennanc: I'm runnig gentoo. Everythings fine.
20:43	brennanc	abrenk: are you running the sun-jdk or the virtual/jdk?
20:44	abrenk	brennanc: sun-jdk-1.6
20:44	brennanc	hmm, weird, I can't figure out what the problem is
20:44	brennanc	the error message doesn't seem to make much sense
20:44	abrenk	I've installed using ELPA and didn't have any problems.
20:44	brennanc	yup, same here
20:44	brennanc	http://brennancheung.com/swank.gif
20:44	brennanc	that's the error I'm getting
20:45	brennanc	I get a repl, and it's kinda slime but a lot of the other features don't work
20:46	abrenk	The error looks strange.
20:47	brennanc	agreed, don't know where to start looking with it
20:49	abrenk	My REPLs buffer is called slime-repl clojure. The inferior-lisp one's missing some features.
20:50	abrenk	I mostly work using "lein swank" and "M-x slime-connect". Have you tried that?
20:51	abrenk	I fear I can't really tell you more than the other guys already did...
20:51	abrenk	...just wanted to mention that I'm also running gentoo.
21:10	fusss	is there a clojure library for "SOAP"? something that consumes a WSDL and makes calls in a functional/OOP manner?
21:11	fusss	java has a boatload of them, and I am sure you boys and girls have found a way to use them in a lispy manner. dish. spill the beans. pass the joint. etc.
21:11	Raynes	fusss: I was looking for one earlier.
21:12	Raynes	Nothing to be found, as far as I can tell.
21:12	Raynes	And I'm not about to try to use Axis.
21:12	Raynes	So, I gave up on that.
21:12	fusss	there is one for Common Lisp and it's broken
21:12	Raynes	Like much of everything for Common Lisp /subjective
21:12	Raynes	:D
21:12	fusss	I could try the Schemers but I don't they even know what SOAP is
21:13	fusss	dont _think_
21:13	fusss	oh well, back to work then
21:14	fusss	would love to try clj ASAP, as soon as I have time to grok the java underpinnings
21:15	tomoj	is SOAP ever a good thing?
21:15	tomoj	I'm genuinely curious
21:16	tomoj	in my mind it's always just been some mysterious old shit that I didn't want to touch
21:16	tomoj	but I imagine I am mistaken
21:28	icey	is there a good compojure example site out there somewhere? (github or elsewhere?)
21:31	fanatico	icey: LauJensen has a few good examples http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/tag/compojure/.
21:32	icey	fanatico: yeah, it seems like all his examples are the most recent. they don't seem to do things in the "compojure" way though - they avoid using sessions and for whatever reason the way he's using static files isn't working form e
21:33	icey	(but thank you :D)
21:34	fanatico	the reddit example doesn't, but the first two do, if I remember correctly.
21:34	fanatico	np
21:34	icey	ahh maybe I didn't look through enough of them
21:35	fanatico	beating the arc challenge is another good example http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/beating-the-arc-challenge-in-clojure/
21:42	icey	that's a good one too
21:43	tomoj	I think we need more
21:43	tomoj	someone was talking about this before
21:43	tomoj	I wonder what a good example app would be
21:43	tomoj	NOT a blog :P
21:43	icey	it would be really nice to have a canonical example out there that showed how to do basic stuff like sessions, static files, etc
21:43	icey	twitter clones work surprisingly well for example apps
21:44	tomoj	static files annoyed the hell out of me
21:44	icey	i've been dicking around with static files for the past 2 hours
21:44	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/1d20d755c9cb5f24f630
21:44	tomoj	that's what I ended up using, didn't like it
21:44	icey	until I realized that for some godforsaken reason it was looking in /Users/icey/Public instead of /Users/icey/prj/mycompojureapp/public
21:45	tomoj	you also need good mimetypes
21:45	tomoj	the with-mimetypes middleware helps
21:45	tomoj	what I did was put my static files in mycompojureapp/resources/
21:45	tomoj	er, mycompojureapp/resources/public/
21:46	tomoj	lein-swank automatically puts resources/ on the classpath
21:46	icey	ahhh
21:46	icey	gonna try that right now :D
21:46	tomoj	and then you can grab the file reference with the clojure classloader
21:46	tomoj	but I wonder if there is a nicer way
21:46	tomoj	if they're really static files, like images or something, they should probably be served by the web server, not compojure
21:46	tomoj	in my case I wanted to grab html files to transform with enlive
22:20	jeld	what is wrong with this statement? (use 'clojure.contrib.http.agent :only '(http-agent string))
22:23	jeld	somehow this doesn't work and (require 'clojure.contrib.http.agent) (refer 'clojure.contrib.http.agent :only '(http-agent string)) works... :(
22:24	_mst	I think you want: (use '[clojure.contrib.http.agent :only [http-agent string]])
22:29	jeld	_mst: thanks, that was somehow non-obvious
22:32	jeld	another question, (println (string (http-agent "http://www.google.com/"))) from REPL returns immediately, but from a script it takes prints almost immediately, but then takes some 30-45 seconds to exit. Any idea why?
22:33	_mst	I'd guess that it's using agents behind the scenes
22:33	jeld	and as far as I can tell it is the call to http-agent that makes script slow to exit
22:33	_mst	if you add (shutdown-agents) to the end of your script does that sort it out?
22:33	jeld	heh
22:33	jeld	cool
22:40	Raynes	Guess it's time for me to learn about databases.
23:19	BrandonW	is it safe to assume that any time a keyword exists immediately after an open paren, that it will function similar to the ns macro, where indentation would be similar to a function call?
23:19	BrandonW	for example: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/compile.clj
23:20	Raynes	: echo-cmd ( -- ) command-line get " " join print ; ! I R l33t concatenative purrrrrrrsun
23:20	BrandonW	the (:use [clojure.contrib...] [clojure.contrib...] -- each vector is indented the same amount, as if they were arguments to a :use function
23:21	BrandonW	that seems to me like it is idiomatic clojure, but i am not sure... perhaps it could be used in a different manner where you would not wants the tokens after the keyword to be indented in that way?
23:35	BrandonW	ah, breaks down when you use a keyword as a function into a collection that you define ad-hoc across multiple lines
23:36	BrandonW	no nevermind, it doesn't