#clojure – 2010-02-05

2010-02-05

00:33	hiredman	user=> (expression-info '(jop / (float 4) (float 1.1)))
00:33	hiredman	{:class float, :primitive? true}
00:33	hiredman	:D
00:35	chouser	huh!
00:35	chouser	does it work for any java operator?
00:40	hiredman	chouser: no
00:40	hiredman	still a work in progress, the operands need to be of the same type
00:41	hiredman	I don't imagine that will change, the dispatch would be taken care over via a protocol like c.l.Numbers
00:41	hiredman	of
00:42	hiredman	which at the bottom level would call jop something
00:45	hiredman	at least those are my thoughts, who knows what rhickey is up to :P
00:45	chouser	:-)
00:51	hiredman	gah, suddenly none of the three web browsers I have installed are working and I am without reference to javadocs
00:51	chouser	javadoc from repl-utils might still work via swing
00:54	qed	someone comfort me
00:55	hiredman	contrib has been altered, pray that stuart does not alter it further
00:55	qed	heh -- im actually fond of his changes, just not so fond of changing all of my code
01:22	qed	/go clojurebot
02:10	LauJensen	Morning team
02:26	tomoj	is there any alias for the current ns inside the ns declaration?
02:27	tomoj	as in, to avoid the duplication in (ns foo.bar.baz.bang (:require [foo.bar.baz.bang [biz bing bong]]))
02:27	tomoj	guess it's not that bad
02:28	tomoj	really for me it becomes (ns foo.bar.baz.bang (:require [foo.bar.baz.bang [[biz :as biz] [bing :as bing] [bong :as bong]]]))
02:28	tomoj	which is ugly but not too much work to type, I guess
02:33	vu3rdd	Is there a way to get source code thru lein? (like apt-get source)
02:34	vu3rdd	hmm.. ignore my question. I misunderstood lein.
02:59	LauJensen	lein just gets jars, but if those jars contain the source, you can get it at from Emacs, M-x ; I think
02:59	LauJensen	s/it at/at it
03:08	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/295631
03:08	hiredman	way too excited about this I think
03:13	tomoj	hiredman: what exactly is it you're excited about?
03:13	tomoj	I don't understand the gist :(
03:14	hiredman	if you look at the last method in the output of javap, that is what is the body of the fn function
03:14	tomoj	ok
03:15	hiredman	and the jop compiles directly to a call to fadd instead of clojure.lang.Numbers/add
03:15	tomoj	I think whatever you're doing is simply beyond me :)
03:15	tomoj	oh, hmm
03:15	hiredman	fadd takes two floats off the stack and pushs the result of adding them onto the stack
03:15	tomoj	so, are you compiling certain pieces of clojure directly to fast jvm bytecode?
03:16	hiredman	I don't know, it is possible, but speed is not my object
03:16	tomoj	what _is_ your object?
03:16	hiredman	that is part of what is exciting, I have a beachhead in the compiler
03:18	hiredman	if the operations in Numbers are replaced with a protocol, they will need math ops that don't compile to method calls
03:21	LauJensen	Wow
03:22	LauJensen	hiredman: The term beachead is new to me, can you explain that without tipping over your bikeshed-o-meter? :)
03:23	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beachhead
03:24	LauJensen	Ok
03:24	unfo-	hiredman is going to peacefully invade the compiler and cause upheave its internal structures?-)
03:26	hiredman	unfo-: in an alternate universe (my personal clojure repo)
03:26	unfo-	:-)
03:38	nathanmarz	i'm having a weird issue where "lein compile" works but spits out a ton of "ZipException"'s - does anyone else see this?
03:39	hiredman	weird
03:40	hiredman	maybe some of the jars you depend on are damaged?
04:11	nathanmarz	my program still runs though... i guess i'll try unjarring and rejarring manually
04:33	avarus	hi
04:36	AWizzArd	hey avarus
04:37	esj	morning all
04:38	avarus	how are you guys?
04:38	AWizzArd	tired
04:39	esj	ditto that
04:39	esj	Friday is always brutal
04:39	avarus	hehe
04:46	avarus	brb :)
05:23	AWizzArd	Bald ist Wochenende :)
05:25	krumholt_	yes!
07:14	vu3rdd	LauJensen: good afternoon
07:14	LauJensen	Hey :)
07:15	vu3rdd	going thru the cloneit code
07:16	vu3rdd	what does the line 19 do? http://github.com/LauJensen/cloneit/blob/master/src/cloneit.clj
07:16	vu3rdd	I am still confused with java.. printTo is a method of who?
07:19	LauJensen	http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/api-release/org/joda/time/format/PeriodFormatter.html
07:23	vu3rdd	Ok, so toPrinter gives a PeriodPrinter and then we use the printTo to print it?
07:25	vu3rdd	I should re-read chapter 3 of programming clojure.
07:26	AWizzArd	Moin Lau
07:36	zaphyr	is there something like a destructuring let*?
07:43	LauJensen	vu3rdd: I think thats right
07:45	LauJensen	Moin AWizzArd
07:46	Raynes	LauJensen: Did you see that C# version of the newsgroup scraper in the comments on your Clojure vs Scala & Ruby thread?
07:47	Raynes	Guy said it completed in like, 10 seconds. Shocked me.
07:49	LauJensen	Raynes: Yea I dialoged with the author - I haven't benchmarked it yet, but his system is quite a bit faster than mine. I've promised him that once I get some time to set up Mono I'll take it out for a spin
07:52	vu3rdd	LauJensen: Thanks
07:52	vu3rdd	LauJensen: you should write a book on clojure
07:57	AWizzArd	Moin ulfster, alles klar?
07:57	ulfster	Moin
07:59	spariev	is that #clojure.de :) ?
08:00	AWizzArd	spariev: nah, just a german greeting. And the clojurebot also knows "alles klar" g
08:00	ulfster	funny thing is, i am german ;)
08:00	AWizzArd	That was the intention.
08:01	vegai	where's this thread?
08:02	esj	i like alles klar
08:02	spariev	I only know "aller klar" and "Ich moechte essen" in german :)
08:02	esj	although I'm not German
08:04	AWizzArd	Though the bestest language of them all is Clojure.
08:08	Raynes	I speak redneck, or at least LauJensen certainly thinks I do. :>
08:20	jcromartie	Clojure.org says "for a better experience, try running it via the JLine ConsoleRunner"
08:21	jcromartie	but I found JLine to be incredibly frustrating and incomplete compared to rlwrap, which is available for cygwin, macports, and any linux distro
08:21	jcromartie	It should get a mention. I feel like it's a hidden gem and most people don't know about it.
08:22	unfo-	LauJensen, clojure vs scala & ruby - where? -)
08:23	chouser	jcromartie: I use rlwrap too, but am under the impression most people use emacs slime and spend half their time trying to get that to work instead of learning Clojure. shrug
08:23	Raynes	unfo-: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/clojure-vs-ruby-scala-transient-newsgroups
08:23	unfo-	ty
08:23	unfo-	since those are the three languages i am currently interested in
08:24	Raynes	It's not a real comparsion.
08:24	Raynes	I mean, not in the way you might think it is.
08:25	unfo-	from a brief glance it's pretty much what i wanted :)
08:34	ohpauleez	haha chouser, are you still a vimclojure user
08:34	AWizzArd	ohpauleez: why not?
08:34	jcromartie	my main case against Ruby: "or" exists
08:34	jcromartie	http://gist.github.com/295413
08:34	cemerick	chouser: that can be easily parameterized to "I use % too, but am under the impression that most people use emacs %2 and spend half their time trying to get that to work instead of learning %3. shrug"
08:35	ohpauleez	no no no, I'm a vimclojure user
08:35	ohpauleez	I love it
08:35	chouser	yeah, well, really just vim. I still don't do the live repl integration stuff.
08:35	wlr	(> help-request-per-vim-user help-request-per-emacs-user) -> true
08:35	chouser	cemerick: you're right. I don't know why I'm feeling snarky this morning.
08:35	ohpauleez	I rarely use the live repl, but I do like the doc lookup and omnicompletion
08:35	AWizzArd	I don't use vim, but if it works well for some people it's perfectly fine I think.
08:35	jcromartie	yeah I gave up on swank for my current project because I can't be bothered to sort out the current working directory issue
08:35	ohpauleez	totally AWizzArd, I completely agree
08:35	cemerick	chouser: s'ok. Emacs brings that out in people.
08:36	ohpauleez	it's the first lisp I felt like I COULD pick an editor
08:36	cemerick	Slime is a compounding factor.
08:36	jcromartie	I should be loading resources from the classpath or env vars or something
08:36	ohpauleez	usually you're pushed into emacs
08:36	chouser	Actually, I think it's the emacs advocates that bring it out in me. Emacs itself bothers me rather less.
08:36	chouser	s/the emacs/some emacs/
08:36	Raynes	I tried to use Vim. Didn't work out for me.
08:37	chouser	I ought to spend a chunk of time improving my clojure environment. But investing in either single-threaded editor with ancient scripting language seems a poor use of time.
08:37	rhickey	emacs + clojure-mode + paredit seems much simpler than Slime
08:38	cemerick	vim's no walk in the park, IMO either, but the issue is dismissive evangelism rather than...just about anything else.
08:38	jcromartie	_fogus_: right on
08:38	jcromartie	bash + rlwrap + clojure for my repl
08:38	Raynes	I don't know how I would code without an integrated REPL.
08:38	tcrayford	also my refactoring tool depends on slime
08:39	rhickey	does slime do Java completion?
08:39	tcrayford	yep
08:39	_fogus_	I have to spend a few moments to get rlwrap working... jline seems to go into limbo too often
08:39	jcromartie	_fogus_: there's nothing to get working :)
08:39	jcromartie	install and rlwrap-away
08:40	jcromartie	so what's the deal with working directories and swank-clojure-project
08:40	_fogus_	Even better
08:40	tcrayford	jcronmartie, you might have to use ,cd inside slime to switch your working dir to be correct
08:40	vu3rdd	tcrayford: Is there anything to be done to get java completions in slime?
08:41	tcrayford	just c-c tab inside slime and it'll complete it
08:41	tcrayford	if you want autocomplete, go look at company-mode (its on elpa) and slime-company.el (on the emacs wiki)
08:41	jcromartie	tcrayford: would I start slime, cd, and then start swank-clojure-project then?
08:42	Raynes	When I do swank-clojure-project, it asks me which directory I want to be root.
08:42	Raynes	After that, everything is perfect.
08:42	jcromartie	yay!
08:43	vu3rdd	tcrayford: thanks. will look into it. I can't get C-c TAB to work in my slime..
08:44	tcrayford	vu3rdd: m-x slime-complete-symbol
08:44	tcrayford	vu3rdd: bind that to something if you have something conflicting with C-c TAB
08:45	vu3rdd	tcrayford: it tries to find it, but says can't find completion for so and so.
08:45	tcrayford	what are you trying to complete?
08:46	vu3rdd	Say, (StringBuffer.)
08:47	tcrayford	insert (StringBuf and tab it
08:47	tcrayford	it works fine here
08:48	vu3rdd	tcrayford: still same issue.
08:48	vu3rdd	I don't have the company mode installed though..
09:00	chouser	Bleh. http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/android-kernel-problems.html
09:02	jcromartie	Android is dead to me.
09:02	chouser	I guess it's still less closed and more Clojure-friendly than iPhone, but ... bleh.
09:02	jcromartie	only slightly
09:02	jcromartie	I still haven't seen clojure running well on Dalvik
09:03	jcromartie	a jailbroken iPhone runs Java better
09:03	chouser	huh
09:03	Chousuke	google is being really foolish with android :
09:03	Chousuke	it might work for them now but they're just wasting resources in the long run :(
09:04	zaphyr	giant globalised tech company wasting resources? unheard of! :)
09:04	jcromartie	android is just another marketing idea
09:04	jcromartie	trying to get the Google name in more places
09:05	jcromartie	techwise, eh... take it or leave it
09:05	chouser	zaphyr: :-)
09:05	jcromartie	unless I want to build a mobile OS I don't care about the code for a mobile OS
09:05	jcromartie	so open source it or not, it doesn't matter to me
09:05	jcromartie	it's not like you can really contribute
09:06	ltyphair	i got a free droid last night at ADL2010 in Austin. Planning on trying to get clojure running on it.
09:06	jcromartie	ltyphair: was ADL good?
09:07	ltyphair	the droid was nice. no power, my laptop ran out of juice by the time the code session started
09:08	ltyphair	so if you are going don't turn on your laptop till the end.
09:08	jcromartie	k
09:08	jcromartie	I might go in DC
09:08	ltyphair	jcromartie: i would go. just for the chance of a real device to dev on.
09:09	ltyphair	jcromartie: and they will probably have all the wrinkles out.
09:09	jcromartie	yeah
09:13	rys	You get the java runtime on Android?
09:14	jcromartie	rys: no, just a custom VM
09:14	jcromartie	you compile Java bytecode to Dalvik (the VM) bytecode before loading it on the device
09:14	jcromartie	so you can compile compiled Clojure code to Dalvik bytecode
09:15	jcromartie	but you can't compile on the device since Clojure produces Java bytecode and those libraries don't work on Dalvik
09:15	jcromartie	that's my understanding of it
09:16	jcromartie	where's cinc when you need it :)
09:20	ltyphair	there is an android scripting environment but does not do clojure http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
09:20	spariev	I'm trying to translate from java the following code TermAttribute term = (TermAttribute) stream.addAttribute(TermAttribute.class)
09:21	spariev	if I write (.addAttribute stream (class TermAttribute)) compiler complains addAttribute() only accepts an interface that extends Attribute, but java.lang.Class does not fulfil this contract.
09:22	spariev	so, how can I do TermArtribute.class in clojure ?
09:22	jcromartie	(.class TermAttribute)
09:22	chouser	Just TermArtribute actually
09:23	jcromartie	ah
09:24	spariev	chouser: thanks, that works
09:28	ohpauleez	I think this weekend I'm going to wrap the jdb stuff up for clojure, so I can use a clojure repl as my jdb interface
09:30	AWizzArd	chouser: btw, about yesterday: lock, deref atom, put the derefd value into a w-l-v... one other idea about agents which can do the locking and derefing implicitly:
09:30	AWizzArd	the challenge with them was that the caller thread can't know if there was an exception, because of a constraint.
09:31	AWizzArd	But one possibility is that my transaction macro uses a promise as an argument which the agent will then deliver. This way a thread can block as long the agent is working on its query, and then also detect if there was an Exception or not.
09:34	chouser	ohpauleez: I didn't know you were working on anything like that. sounds fantastic
09:35	te	good morning
09:35	chouser	AWizzArd: yes, there would be a few ways to make agent errors report back the way you wanted, but I think it's just a poor fit.
09:35	ohpauleez	I have real need for it in my day-to-day work. I've been working on a few clojure projects in the off time, but none that public on github yet
09:36	vu3rdd	tcrayford: No luck with the java auto complete thing.. does it work without slime-company.el?
09:36	chouser	AWizzArd: the way exceptions were working strikes me as a symptom, not the root problem.
09:43	AWizzArd	chouser: where do you see a root problem?
09:44	chouser	using agents for sychronous tasks
09:45	AWizzArd	Well, there can easily be tens of DBs that are asynchronously transactioned.
09:46	AWizzArd	(send db1 ...), (send db2 ...) vs (locking db1 ...), (locking db2 ...)
09:51	rhickey	asynchronous transaction seems like a contradiction
09:55	AWizzArd	Well, both solutions have +/- the same programmatic complexity, so I can easily go with either agent+promise or atom+lock to do the transaction.
09:55	chouser	the cells model is really very close, deriving from the use of locks.
09:56	AWizzArd	Yes, the cells sound very interesting.
09:56	AWizzArd	Maybe I now do it with locks+atom and can later remodel it to the Cells.
09:56	chouser	for example, if you do want to support a transaction on multiple dbs, you'd just list them all in the same form so that it could sort the locks consistently.
09:57	jcromartie	I want to implement a parser to turn whitespace and indentation into sexps... like Logo syntax
09:57	AWizzArd	(locking [db1 db2] ...) you mean?
09:57	jcromartie	not to do general programming in, but for things like config files
09:57	AWizzArd	jcromartie: look at fnparse
09:58	AWizzArd	Efficiency-wise the solutions for the transactions are probably all bounded by the sync to disk anyway.
09:58	rsynnott	assuming that you actually force sync-to-disk, of course
09:58	rsynnott	some people consider OS buffering to be sufficient
09:59	rsynnott	(or have battery-backed writeback cache which actually works)
09:59	AWizzArd	rsynnott: yes, i mean forcing data to disk
09:59	rsynnott	and assuming that your operating system takes notice of you forcing a sync ;)
10:00	AWizzArd	This can be done with a FileChannel via .force
10:00	AWizzArd	or, as hiredman pointed out, with java.io.FileDescriptor’s .sync
10:01	AWizzArd	rsynnott: if the disk or the OS are lying, then no db system can be used safely on such a system
10:01	AWizzArd	rsynnott: I will just forward the lie :-)
10:01	rsynnott	AWizzArd: indeed :)
10:01	rsynnott	and yet, the disk and/or OS often are lying
10:01	AWizzArd	rhickey: why does Su.. Oracle not change it in Java 7?
10:02	rsynnott	there are various articles out there on how to make very sure they're not
10:02	rhickey	AWizzArd: change what?
10:02	AWizzArd	support for boxed numbers
10:02	rsynnott	(though depending on perspective use of a proper write-back cache might or might not be considered a lie in that case)
10:03	AWizzArd	sbcl is using some nice tricks
10:03	AWizzArd	to calculate with native numbers
10:03	rhickey	the tricks are old and well known
10:03	chouser	the total amount of effort required in the compiler, type "system", collections, etc. to support primitives is daunting
10:03	rhickey	but there's no motivation for Java since it has primitives
10:04	rhickey	chouser: but are primitives wrong? they are what the hardware can actually do
10:04	rhickey	Lisp Machines RIP
10:04	rhickey	no tagged numbers in hardware
10:05	chouser	whatever requires the most work is wrong. :-)
10:05	rhickey	and if tagged numbers could only ever be 1/100th as fast?
10:05	AWizzArd	rhickey: is there any eta on Cells?
10:05	chouser	Java doesn't support primitives for its own collection types, does it?
10:06	chouser	other than array of course
10:06	chouser	I guess what I mean is, do Java generics support primitives?
10:07	rhickey	they don't. but .Net generics do
10:07	chouser	C++ templates do, but again, is it worth the complexity cost?
10:07	cemerick	rhickey: but don't they just get boxed in .NET anyway?
10:07	rhickey	cemerick: no
10:08	rhickey	true generics over value types
10:08	rhickey	packed representation
10:08	chouser	but not using type erasure, right? does that complicate things for Clojure support?
10:08	cemerick	that was my impression from some time ago
10:08	rhickey	chouser: yes, much more complex. But the question is, can you do without primitives without driving everyone back to C++?
10:09	rhickey	i.e. could Java do without primitives?
10:10	rhickey	all industrial strength CLs also have untagged full-width fixnums and unboxed floats, with commensurate grief and incompatibility
10:10	rhickey	because not being able to reach the hardware is death
10:10	chouser	It does seem likely that might shrink its user base. But I have so rarely written any code (except actually inside the kernel) that demands enough performance from math that it would matter at all.
10:11	cemerick	yeah, same here
10:11	rhickey	heh, but you both rely on code that does
10:12	cemerick	eh, actually, there's a big hunk of matrix stuff I wrote years ago that I still depend on :-P
10:13	cemerick	rhickey: doesn't this largely go away once IFn.invoke has float and double overloads?
10:14	rhickey	long and double args returns, yes, but that's primitive support
10:14	rhickey	also move to non-objectifying math
10:14	_fogus_	Up until a couple years ago most of what I did was pretty dependent on fast math. These days not so much
10:15	rhickey	i.e. long arithmetic that throws on overflow rather than convert to reference type
10:15	rhickey	if you use Clojure vectors you depend on fast math
10:15	cemerick	The real kicker is that it's way, way cheaper to spin up 2x, 10x nodes on ec2 than stress too much about perf
10:16	cemerick	I may think differently once the baseline changes. :-)
10:17	rhickey	if Clojure doesn't get these things then some code will always have to be written in Java
10:18	AWizzArd	One CL guy implemented a type of neural networks (Boltzmann Machine) and used arrays to represent his matrix. Those arrays are huge and eat very much RAM. He needs mutable arrays for this because he does not want to have two big arrays in RAM at once, and it is probably faster to mutate array cells than calculating up a full new Vector.
10:18	cemerick	rhickey: post a couple inflammatory messages comparing clojure to ocaml or something under an alias, and everyone will get revved up. :-)
10:19	_fogus_	ocaml is the fastest language evar! (or so I've read)
10:20	cemerick	yeeouch
10:20	rsynnott	cemerick: even cheaper now; did you see their spot pricing thing?
10:21	rsynnott	(you can bid on spare capacity)
10:21	cemerick	rsynnott: yes, I'm aware of it, though I haven't researched it. I will before we go to production, tho.
10:21	cemerick	'course, just how much spare cap is there anymore ;-)
10:25	te	damn you ocaml with your tail recursion
10:27	jcromartie	te: what about it? clojure has recur
10:27	cemerick	I quite love recur vs. "unbounded" tail recursion
10:29	AWizzArd	recur is easily searchable and allows for anon functions that can do recursion, without requiring the y-combinator.
10:30	_fogus_	Haven't had too many chances to whip out the Y, even before recur
10:30	Chousuke	I wonder if it would be possible to implement a recur-like construct for mutual recursion :/
10:31	Chousuke	something like (recur-at somefunc args)
10:31	jcromartie	recur is nice :) it does what it says on the tin
10:31	jasapp	I've never end up using mutual recursion much
10:31	AWizzArd	Chousuke: you don't talk about trampolines right?
10:31	somnium	Chousuke: maybe a case statement with function names and pass [& args] to the right one?
10:32	Chousuke	AWizzArd: no, I mean a real recur form, except that it supports a target
10:33	Chousuke	I think I would prefer one to having a TCO guarantee
10:33	somnium	(loop [fnname args] (case :foo ... case :bar))
10:33	Chousuke	somnium: I don't think that's what I want :P
10:34	te	Chousuke: there's a trampoline isn't there?
10:34	Chousuke	yeah, but it's not very convenient to use :/
10:35	somnium	Chousuke: a macro could make it more magical tco-ish, I wonder if it would offer any performance benefit for hordes of tailcalls
10:37	rhickey	(definterface IName
10:37	rhickey	[foo [int int String] int])
10:37	rhickey	or
10:37	rhickey	(definterface IName
10:37	rhickey	(foo [int int String] int))
10:38	_fogus_	(foo +1
10:38	rhickey	or
10:38	rhickey	(definterface IName
10:38	rhickey	(#^int foo [#^int x #^int y #^String s]))
10:39	te	the 2nd one
10:39	te	i take that back
10:39	te	the 1st one
10:39	chouser	should match defprotocol, right? so (foo or (#^int foo
10:40	chouser	I vote (foo^int [x^int y^int s^String])
10:41	rhickey	the more I see the trailing ^type the less I like it
10:41	chouser	:-(
10:41	rhickey	(definterface IName
10:41	rhickey	(^int foo [^int x ^int y ^String s]))
10:42	Chousuke	hm, removing the # really does make it cleaner :/
10:42	te	[int [int int String] foo]
10:42	_fogus_	I'm always partial to these types of layouts: (foo [x y x] {x int, y int, z String, :ret int}) but it's a departure
10:43	te	there is something more concrete about []'s
10:43	chouser	I don't know about losing the method name from the first word in the list
10:45	te	id like to respectfully change my vote back again to (foo [int int String] int)
10:46	chouser	I guess protocols will never need types for args or return?
10:48	rhickey	chouser: only if long/double arg/return support is added
10:49	chouser	defprotocol uses (foo [x] [x y]) so should defintereface as well?
10:51	chouser	(foo [^int x] int [^int x ^String s] String) ? or do all bodies have the same return type?
11:01	alexyk	liebke: how do we save a dataframe to disk so it could be read by R? :)
11:01	liebke	alexyk: save
11:02	alexyk	ok
11:02	alexyk	I resorted to PDF'ing in R for now
11:02	alexyk	need tick names, etc.
11:04	alexyk	but that's not to say the charts are not pretty on screen! :)
11:41	jasapp	is there another one coming?
11:42	jkdufair	where are you, fogus? ours has started here in Indiana, USA
11:50	chouser	jkdufair: not here. are you in Indy?
12:04	AWizzArd	chouser: one thing did not get through, from about 2 hours ago. You said: “if you do want to support a transaction on multiple dbs, you'd just list them all in the same form so that it could sort the locks consistently”.
12:04	AWizzArd	Then I asked if you mean something like (locking [db1 db2] ...) by that.
12:05	chouser	AWizzArd: sorry, didn't see that. Yes, that's what I mean. rhickey mentioned something similar for cells
12:07	AWizzArd	chouser: yes, this is an advantage of locks. I could order them by the DBs internal id.
12:07	AWizzArd	advantage here of locks over the agent approach
12:08	hiredman	rhickey: http://gist.github.com/295631 jop is a special form that allows for directly calling java operators (+,-,*,etc), I picture it as being at the bottom of a protocol that takes care of all the dispatch like Numbers.java, would you be interested in a patch?
12:10	hiredman	that might be kind of premature since I haven't figured out what the eval() method on an Expr does yet
12:10	chouser	~scopes
12:10	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
12:10	chouser	~scope
12:10	clojurebot	scope is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838
12:21	arohner	here's a problem I'm having trouble converting into a purely functional implementation
12:22	arohner	I have two seqs of items, and I have a predicate I need to call on all combinations of items from the seq
12:22	chouser	,(for [a (range 4), b (range 4)] (= a b))
12:22	clojurebot	(true false false false false true false false false false true false false false false true)
12:22	arohner	but if the predicate returns true, one of the items doesn't need to be compared again
12:23	arohner	and the not comparing is important, because this is an expensive operation
12:23	arohner	if (pred a b) returns true, b doesn't need to be in any comparison after that
12:23	arohner	is there a way to do this without refs/atoms?
12:23	chouser	yes!
12:24	chouser	it's just a matter of figuring out how. ;-)
12:24	chouser	what do you want returned?
12:25	arohner	the set of items for which (pred a b) did not return false
12:25	arohner	a little more background
12:26	arohner	both lists are identical, I'm just comparing the individual items
12:26	arohner	and this is original adapted from an algorithm that sets the return value to the input list, and removes items as it goes along
12:26	chouser	,(map (fn [a] (some #(when (= a %) [a %]) (range 4))) (range 4))
12:26	clojurebot	([0 0] [1 1] [2 2] [3 3])
12:28	chouser	oh, I see -- once 1 has participated as either arg in a successful predicate, you don't want it included as either arg ever again.
12:28	chouser	hmm...
12:30	arohner	it's not either arg, it's the second arg
12:31	arohner	if (pred a b) is true, b should not be included ever again
12:32	chouser	ok, the one I gave above does: if (pred a b) is true, no (pred a ...) will never be tested again (which is right, right?) but (pred? b ...) will (which is wrong, right?)
12:43	arohner	I can generate the combinations, and then pass those to a recursive function
12:43	arohner	you'd have to filter the pairs each time you want to "remove" an item
12:43	chouser	but once you generate the combinations, you've lost useful info about which ones can be skipped
12:44	arohner	I was thinking: 1) generate all possible pairs, pass them to a recursive function
12:44	arohner	run (pred a b)
12:44	arohner	remove the first item from the list
12:44	arohner	if (pred a b) is true, run filter on the generated pairs, and recurse
12:45	chouser	if (pred 1 2) is false, you still want to check (pred 2 1), right?
12:45	mabes	How do I have a macro take a symbol and then use that symbol as a suffix for a function that gets defined?
12:46	chouser	and were my previous statements correct?
12:47	mabes	For example, I can define I macro that defines a fn: (defmacro square-fn [fn-suffix] `(defn ~fn-suffix [x#] (* x# x#))) But in this example I would like to have square-"fn-suffix" defined
12:48	chouser	arohner: this doesn't have to be lazy, does it?
12:48	arohner	chouser: no
12:48	arohner	if (pred 1 2) is false, you still want to check (pred 2 1)
12:48	arohner	http://gist.github.com/296026
12:48	chouser	,`(defn ~(symbol (str "foo-" 'bar)))
12:48	clojurebot	(clojure.core/defn foo-bar)
12:49	chouser	arohner: are you content with that?
12:49	mabes	arg.. I was looking for that! I thought it would by called sym. Thanks chouser
12:49	chouser	mabes: np
12:49	arohner	I think so
12:49	arohner	I don't know how much better it can get
12:49	arohner	doesn't seem like much
12:50	chouser	arohner: remove is doing another O(n) pass, but if the expense is 'pred' and not the size of myseq, then you should be fine.
12:50	arohner	right
12:51	arohner	chouser: thanks!
12:51	chouser	I think your 'for' is missing something. or something.
12:51	arohner	yeah, that was typed out hastily into the browser
12:51	arohner	I'm too used to paredit
12:52	chouser	to avoid that O(n) scan I was trying to uses sets, but it's a bit of a pain.
12:54	arohner	chouser: actually, two sets isn't that bad
12:55	arohner	one for the winners, and one for the losers
12:55	arohner	check if either item of the pair is in the losers set
12:55	arohner	if a value loses, remove it from the winner set and add to the loser set
12:56	arohner	when the pairs list is empty, return the winner set
12:57	arohner	chouser: thanks again
13:25	alexyk	is there something like ->, but working right to left? I have a data structure and access like,
13:25	alexyk	,(let [m {:a {0 "a", 1 "b"} :b {4 "z", 1 "c"}}] ((m :a) 1))
13:25	clojurebot	"b"
13:25	alexyk	as you see, I start with the data structure m, and then fetch keys from nested maps. I guess I can do get-in... but still
13:25	alexyk	something like <- would be cute
13:26	jkdufair	doesn't ->> work right to left?
13:26	alexyk	not in this case
13:26	alexyk	here, the keys would go into function positions and cause Clojure swearing like a sailor
13:27	alexyk	cause they're not all keywords, and can be strings or ints
13:27	jkdufair	how would you access it with <-
13:27	jkdufair	?
13:29	alexyk	the idea is to put the result into the first position, of a function; since it'll be a map
13:29	alexyk	or an array
13:30	alexyk	the fixed things go into second, to look things up
13:30	jkdufair	ah!
13:30	alexyk	(<- m k1 k2)
13:30	jkdufair	seems like it's be easy to implement as a macro
13:30	alexyk	yeah :)
13:30	alexyk	but I'm new to macros still
13:31	somnium	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/174299/
13:31	jkdufair	me too in a practical sense. but if you look at the code for -> and ->> they are very straightforward
13:31	somnium	^^ it is :)
13:31	jkdufair	wow. this channel is like the north pole
13:32	somnium	not as general as it could be, may prefix-> or smthing
13:34	alexyk	wow that was quick! thx somnium
13:34	alexyk	I like <- though
13:36	somnium	alexyk: all these -> <- >>= make it look (sort of) like haskell-in-parens
13:37	somnium	I would go with <--(>_<)--<< but as you like :)
13:37	alexyk	somnium: well, haskell in parens is better than one without parens! :) all those stupid $ for precedence
13:37	alexyk	somnium: you drew an arrow through a pokemon there :)
13:38	nuba	hahaha
13:42	alexyk	http://blog.clemens.endorphin.org/2009/01/liskell-standalone.html
13:43	alexyk	http://clemens.endorphin.org/ILC07-Liskell-draft.pdf
13:58	alexyk	liebke: (mean []) is NaN, but median is 0.0?
14:01	liebke	alexyk: because you're getting a divide by zero error for mean, but not median. That's the underlying pcolt library
14:01	alexyk	ah ok
14:05	alexyk	I'm using code like: (let [x ... y ...] (when (and x y) [x y])). Can I simplify it via with-let, or with-let is only for a single binding?
14:11	Chousuke	single bindings only
14:11	Chousuke	and I guess you mean when-let :/
14:12	fdaoud	,(doc when-let)
14:12	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); bindings => binding-form test When test is true, evaluates body with binding-form bound to the value of test"
14:13	somnium	alexyk: a good opportunity to write 'and-let :) (the source for when-let is quite concise)
14:17	the-kenny	just a small macro which expands to nested when-lets :)
14:19	Chousuke	hmm... (defmacro and-let [bindings & body] (let [names (map first (partition 2 bindings))] `(let ~bindings (when (and ~@names) ~@body))))
14:20	Chousuke	no support for destructuring, but oh well
14:20	Chousuke	I suppose you could use (map first (partition 2 (destructure bindings))) :P
14:30	konr	Can I define additional commands to leiningen? In my specific case, I want something like `lein use foo` to generate a foo.jar file containing src/foo.clj
14:31	somnium	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/174331/ << recursive and-let
14:31	konr	*having foo.clj as the main file
14:33	tomoj	konr: you can write plugins
14:33	tomoj	I don't know how though
14:33	tomoj	lein-swank is an example
14:34	Chousuke	somnium: that supports only one expression in the body though :/
14:34	avarus	hi
14:35	somnium	Chousuke: ah, easy to fix
14:36	Raynes	konr: In your project.clj, in the defproject, you can do :main ns.of.main.file and then 'lein jar' it.
14:37	somnium	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/174338/
14:37	somnium	Chousuke: that was a good catch, thanks
14:38	konr	Raynes: yes, but then I'd have to create a script to change it... it seems that it's not so hard to create a plugin: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/11ee44e988022289
14:38	Chousuke	somnium: I think you still need a ~@body in the (and-let ...) part as well)
14:38	somnium	39 :)
14:38	somnium	I knew it was coming, copy/paste fail :/
14:39	the-kenny	gist.el in emacs ftw! :)
14:41	somnium	I wonder why assert-args in core is private
14:41	the-kenny	,(doc assert-args)
14:41	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:42	Chousuke	that lodgeit pastebin seems better than gist though :/
14:42	Chousuke	since it doesn't require javascript :P
14:42	the-kenny	,(doc clojure.core/assert-args)
14:42	clojurebot	"([fnname & pairs]); "
14:42	the-kenny	Chousuke: does gist require js? Really?
14:42	Chousuke	last time I checked, yes.
14:43	the-kenny	http://gist.github.com/279651 displays without js here. (please ignore the code ;))
14:43	Chousuke	hm, looks like it does.
14:44	the-kenny	Including gists in other sites doesn't work without js, but simple pasting and viewing ist just plain html
14:44	Chousuke	maybe it's just the blog-embeddable gists that require js :/
14:44	Chousuke	they always throw me off since I usually browse with javascript disabled
14:44	the-kenny	Yes, they use js.. I don't know why
14:44	tomoj	the embeds I saw are just <script> tags
14:44	the-kenny	As far as I understand the code, they don't need to use js
14:49	tomoj	I guess the js makes it so that the latest version will show?
14:49	AWizzArd	So.
15:11	mattrepl	hey nathanmarz, hope you'll post about clojure-cascading hacking =)
15:11	nathanmarz	mattrepl: i absolutely will
15:11	nathanmarz	sometime within the next week
15:12	avarus	mhmh...are you guys all hacking on vim or emacs?
15:13	the-kenny	avarus: I think most people here use Emacs
15:13	avarus	hrm...I only need syntax highlighting and some ability to "run" some shellscripts :P
15:14	avarus	I'd have to learn the whole emacs stuff for that
15:14	chouser	I use vim
15:14	the-kenny	avarus: Trust me.. if you try slime, you don't want to use shellscripts anymore :)
15:14	avarus	and I guess you are using clojure-mode?
15:14	chouser	last poll there were about as many people using emacs as vim+all other IDEs combined.
15:14	chouser	so half, not most. :-)
15:15	avarus	I tried enclojure and the idea plugin for idea
15:15	avarus	didn't like it
15:16	avarus	I'm normally on linux and using "gedit" :P...but parens highlighting sucks!
15:16	avarus	I am currently working on a mac and tried aquamacs which has brilliant parens highlighting
15:16	avarus	but no idea if aquamacs is a good alternative to "pure" emacs
15:16	tomoj	aquamacs is perfect
15:17	tomoj	really easy to set up for clojure, as well
15:17	tomoj	though, learning how to use aquamacs is a different story...
15:17	the-kenny	But Aquamacs is ok, absolutely
15:17	the-kenny	Especially for starters
15:17	tomoj	I mean, you can get away with just treating it like gedit probably (?), but you will be missing out
15:17	somnium	I miss the gmate themes on emacs
15:17	Intertricity	These are a bit of silly questions but, do I need JDK to run clojure? I downloaded clojurebox and it works pretty well
15:18	Intertricity	but I don't know what I could be missing
15:18	somnium	90% of color-theme.el is border-line offensive
15:18	tomoj	color-theme pissed me off because themes would leave stuff behind and reverting didn't work
15:18	tomoj	ended up just building my own color theme :/
15:18	chouser	Intertricity: you need JDK to build clojure, but only the JRE to use it (including running and compiling clojure code)
15:18	avarus	tomoj: so what? aquamacs or pure emacs? :P I have to learn something nevertheless
15:18	mattrepl	re: aquamacs, gnu emacs has cocoa support now but aquamacs tries to be a good mac app
15:19	tomoj	personally, I use aquamacs on the mac
15:19	tomoj	I didn't know there was a reason not to
15:19	the-kenny	avarus: Just use Aquamacs. It's Emacs as a nice Cocoa app
15:19	Intertricity	chouser, so I don't even need JDK to compile clojure programs or use api related things like speech synth?
15:19	tomoj	except for use inside screen maybe
15:19	avarus	not using screen here
15:19	chouser	Intertricity: right
15:19	Intertricity	wow nice
15:19	billsmithaustin	Intertricity: that's all in the JRE.
15:19	Intertricity	chouser, thanks :D
15:20	tomoj	avarus: also, I happened to write a blog post the other day about setting up from scratch http://tomojack.com/?p=8
15:20	avarus	ah! :)
15:20	tomoj	that process worked for me in aquamacs
15:20	avarus	great
15:20	tomoj	though you might need to be sure package.el's initialization stuff gets put in the right place
15:20	Intertricity	I used to ignorantly despise java until I saw clojure.. now that little cup icon is pretty to me, hehe
15:21	somnium	anyone used Clojure-CLR with mono?
15:21	Intertricity	somnium, I'm eagerly waiting a binary to play with
15:21	avarus	I'm not
15:22	Intertricity	One more simple question, I don't mind reading if anyone has a link- is there anything specific I need to know about installing new java libraries to use with clojure?
15:22	the-kenny	Intertricity: Just put them in the classpath
15:23	avarus	ya, simple as that
15:23	Intertricity	classpath- this folder? C:\program files\java\jre6\lib
15:23	mattrepl	Intertricity: and there has been some work on a dependency manager, with various libs thrown up on http://clojars.org
15:23	the-kenny	Intertricity: For example, yes.
15:24	avarus	the-kenny: tomoj: mmh...which version are you running? on aquamacs.org there is 1.9 but also 2.0 preview 1 which says it's based on coca
15:24	billsmithaustin	Intertricity: I wouldn't put them there. Better to install them someone outside of the JRE and then add that directory to the classpath. Otherwise you'll have problems when you upgrade your JRE.
15:24	the-kenny	avarus: I used the preview. It's pretty stable
15:24	Intertricity	billsmithaustin, oh I see
15:24	the-kenny	But I'm using a self-compiled recent version now
15:24	avarus	I did "java -cp $MYOWNCLASSPATH ... "
15:24	mattrepl	Intertricity: the classpath can be set when you run the JVM.. `java -cp /some/path:/another/path:a/relative/onetoo ...`
15:25	liebke	alexyk: if you're still around, I created a save-pdf function that writes incanter.charts to a pdf file: https://gist.github.com/b91cc35f1c7c71b7fafe
15:25	avarus	the-kenny: ok, thanks :)
15:25	avarus	the-kenny: snow leopard, too?
15:25	the-kenny	avarus: Yes
15:25	avarus	ok :)
15:25	mattrepl	liebke: nice
15:25	technomancy	just as a warning, Aquamacs breaks^H^H^H^H^Hchanges core behaviour in strange and unpredictable ways
15:25	Intertricity	mattrepl, thanks :)
15:25	technomancy	making it difficult for maintainers to target it for compatibility since it's not cross-platform
15:26	neotyk	yep
15:26	avarus	:>
15:26	liebke	mattrepl: yeah, I just used a library called itext, which fortunately is in a public maven repository -- so I can just include it in a project.clj or pom.xml file
15:27	the-kenny	technomancy: Hehe
15:28	technomancy	I try to steer people towards http://emacsformacosx.com/ as much as possible
15:28	avarus	ya, just tell me like that
15:28	avarus	I'll have a look
15:28	neotyk	like following code http://clojure.pastebin.com/m3e22d711 will output stuff to inferior-lisp buffer
15:29	technomancy	I mean, it's your choice; enough people use aquamacs that some one is likely to find the bugs before you do, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.
15:29	neotyk	and not where you would except that is: slime-repl
15:30	neotyk	technomancy: this emacsfotmacosx is normal emacs 23?
15:30	neotyk	how different it is from aquamacs?
15:30	technomancy	neotyk: yeah, it's just a convenient build of the official source tree IIRC
15:30	technomancy	neotyk: Aquamacs is a fork
15:30	technomancy	this is GNU Emacs
15:30	neotyk	very nice
15:31	mattrepl	yeah, cocoa support is in the official repo
15:31	the-kenny	Yeah, there's also Emacs.app
15:31	mattrepl	for more info: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsForMacOS
15:31	technomancy	Emacs.app is just the name for the artifact you get when you compile GNU Emacs 23+ with the OS X flags turned on
15:31	technomancy	aka "Cocoa Emacs"
15:32	neotyk	how many emacs is there anyway?
15:32	neotyk	same as linux distros?
15:32	technomancy	neotyk: you don't want to know: http://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html
15:32	technomancy	the history goes back much further than Linux
15:33	avarus	come on guys...the confusion makes me installing textmate :P
15:34	neotyk	is not that bad though, compared to number of linux distros
15:34	konr	Guys, what is wrong with (with-ns 'foo (println "bar")) ?
15:34	mattrepl	it's really just GNU Emacs (and platform-specific, unofficial ports) and XEmacs
15:34	mattrepl	nowadays, that is
15:34	konr	I get a "no namespace found" error, but should it create one?
15:34	konr	*shouldn't
15:34	tomoj	technomancy: is that what used to be called "carbon emacs"?
15:34	hiredman	,(doc with-ns)
15:34	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.with-ns/with-ns;[[ns & body]]; Evaluates body in another namespace. ns is either a namespace object or a symbol. This makes it possible to define functions in namespaces other than the current one."
15:34	tomoj	it looks familiar
15:34	neotyk	like there is no hannah montana emacs fork while there is such a distro: http://hannahmontana.sourceforge.net/Site/Home.html
15:35	technomancy	tomoj: Carbon Emacs was the old official port
15:35	tomoj	ah
15:35	avarus	I so fucking hate hannah montana
15:35	hiredman	~def with-ns
15:35	technomancy	but it used deprecated OS X APIs, so it was dropped in favour of Cocoa
15:35	neotyk	avarus: the distro? :O
15:35	technomancy	tomoj: Carbon only works with 22, which is several years old
15:35	technomancy	anyway, it's much simpler outside OS X.
15:35	avarus	neotyk: no :P
15:35	technomancy	just pick a version number =)
15:35	tomoj	I do find myself going through trying to make aquamacs act more like normal emacs
15:35	hiredman	,(doc the-ns)
15:35	clojurebot	"([x]); If passed a namespace, returns it. Else, when passed a symbol, returns the namespace named by it, throwing an exception if not found."
15:36	hiredman	konr: the doc doesn't say it does, and the code definitely doesn't
15:40	konr	hiredman: thanks!
15:41	Intertricity	hrm, I thought c-c c-c was send buffer? I'm only getting send line
15:41	the-kenny	Intertricity: C-c C-c is compile-defun
15:42	Intertricity	it's only sending one line at a time to the repl for me
15:43	Intertricity	ahh c-c c-k for clojurebox
16:01	BrandonW	hello, does anyone here have the progamming clojure book?
16:01	jasapp	yeah
16:01	BrandonW	I have a question on faux-curry vs partial, and the faux-curry implementation in general
16:02	BrandonW	okay, page 165/166 (on the ebook)
16:02	BrandonW	not sure if it is the same on the paperback copy
16:02	BrandonW	the faux-curry definition seems to behave in exactly the same manner as the partial function. is that true? is that intentional?
16:03	jasapp	it must be on a different page
16:04	jasapp	I'm not sure, it's been awhile since I've looked at this
16:05	BrandonW	it is in the lazier than lazy sub chapter of the functional programming chapter
16:05	billsmithaustin	In the ebook, page 165 has the heading, "Lazier than lazy".
16:06	billsmithaustin	It starts right after this code sample: (defn
16:06	billsmithaustin	count-runs
16:07	billsmithaustin	"Count runs of length n where pred is true in coll."
16:07	billsmithaustin	[n pred coll]
16:07	billsmithaustin	(count-if #(every? pred %) (partition n 1 coll)))
16:07	billsmithaustin	Sorry for the link breaks.
16:08	BrandonW	okay, it is the page after that
16:15	BrandonW	it's kind of weird
16:15	BrandonW	i can see why the extra apply is needed in the definition of faux-curry
16:15	BrandonW	but i don't quite understand it
16:17	duncanm	is it a design flaw if i'm too aggressive with agents?
16:19	avarus	tomoj: I'm just setting up aquamacs but I fail at the first pasted code where I should press "C-j" :P
16:20	avarus	control-j? but where
16:20	avarus	if I do it in aquamacs it just makes a new line
16:21	tomoj	ok
16:21	tomoj	yes, heh
16:21	tomoj	aquamac's scratch buffer was in text-mode by default, forgot about that
16:21	tomoj	try doing 'M-x emacs-lisp-mode' first
16:22	avarus	ok
16:22	lancepantz	forgive my lack of java-foo, but i get #<Input org.mortbay.jetty.HttpParser$Input@27e91a4d> when i try to println on request :body in compojure
16:22	lancepantz	how can i just print out the request body?
16:22	tomoj	avarus: and lemme know if that works so I can add that to the post
16:22	lancepantz	as a string
16:23	tomoj	C-j is bound to newline by paredit for me :(
16:23	tomoj	C-x C-e should work
16:24	BrandonW	lancepantz: it looks like it is a stream
16:25	BrandonW	you might have to call the appropriate java stream methods in order to read the data in a string representation
16:25	BrandonW	http://jetty.codehaus.org/jetty/jetty-6/apidocs/org/mortbay/jetty/HttpParser.Input.html
16:25	lancepantz	so in this case, read?
16:26	hiredman	I think compojure depends on a bunch of apache stuff, one of their utility methods might turn it into a string
16:26	BrandonW	probably true
16:26	BrandonW	seems like something that could be easily abstracted away from
16:27	kotarak	maybe it has a toString method?
16:27	hiredman	kotarak: I image the representation he is seeing is the toString
16:28	lancepantz	well, (println (.read (request :body))) prints 123, which is not the body
16:28	BrandonW	yeah, it looks like the only way to read the bytes through the java interface is via integer values that would have to be converted into string representation
16:28	BrandonW	read only reads one byte
16:28	lancepantz	jesus
16:28	lancepantz	i hate java
16:28	BrandonW	well not byte actually
16:29	BrandonW	oh nevermind
16:29	BrandonW	you can get one block at a time, or send in a byte array and get back an arbitrary amount of the stream
16:29	avarus	tomoj: that thing is killing me :P..don't think I can contribute anything to that post for now :P
16:29	cemerick	compojure doesn't depend on any apache anything
16:29	cemerick	what's the issue?
16:30	billsmithaustin	BrandonW: faux-curry is a little different from partial. I'll give you an example.
16:30	avarus	compojure has some libs from apache as deps (for uploads e.g.?!)
16:30	tomoj	avarus: didn't work?
16:30	lancepantz	cemerick: i'm just trying to println on a request, so i can look at it for debugging purposes
16:30	cemerick	yeah, optional though
16:30	BrandonW	lancepantz: you may be able to use somethign from duck-streams contrib
16:30	cemerick	lancepantz: from within a handler, I presume?
16:31	lancepantz	yeah
16:31	cemerick	(println request)
16:31	hiredman	you can use http://paste.lisp.org/display/93138 to turn an input stream into a bytebuffer
16:31	avarus	tomoj: sure, I clicked somewhere and activated the emacs lisp mode and I could again click in some context menu to evaluate the code and something happened :S
16:31	tomoj	you should be good, then
16:31	hiredman	cemerick: compojure sure comes with a lot of the apache commons libraries
16:31	hiredman	for something that doesn't depend on them
16:31	tomoj	if 'M-x package-list-packages' now works, you're good
16:31	billsmithaustin	Try ((faux-curry + 1 2 3)) vs ((partial + 1 2 3))
16:31	avarus	tomoj: wouldn't it be better to first learn some "pure" emacs first? I feel so list in that :)
16:32	avarus	lost*
16:32	hiredman	a bytebuffer can be turned into an array of bytes, and the constructor for String takes an array of bytes
16:32	tomoj	learning emacs can't hurt
16:32	alexyk	to the tune of "unbreak my heart": unclog my repl! My repl grows steadily to hold 30gb out of 31.5gb allotted. Things are slow as it gc's all the time. DIs it just the (def x ...) vars I created? If I do (def x nil) for some, should it get better? Is there a way in JVM to do a crude sizeof(x)?
16:32	tomoj	aquamacs is not all that different for the basics
16:32	alexyk	cemerick: don't you do a PDF library?
16:33	tomoj	but yeah, switching to pure emacs wouldn't be a bad idea
16:33	cemerick	hiredman: I think the file upload/multipart stuff is the only dependency, and optional if you're not doing uploads. shrug
16:33	cemerick	alexyk: It's what we're known for, yeah: http://snowtide.com
16:33	hiredman	cemerick: it also has commons codec and io
16:33	tomoj	(oh, I misunderstood you I think. but yeah)
16:33	lancepantz	(println request) still prints the body as HttpParser$Input
16:34	alexyk	cemerick: 'cause I just saw iText liebke used to PDF-ize the Incanter charts and was wondering where's your pro bono contribution to the OSS movement or something! :)
16:34	avarus	I'll try http://emacsformacosx.com/, tomoj :)
16:34	BrandonW	billsmithaustin: i understand that the faux-curry doesn't evaluate the function even if it has all the required args because clojure can't know in advance if the user is done sending args toa function, so you need to evaluate the function twice to retrieve the result
16:34	cemerick	alexyk: we don't generate PDFs, we extract content + data from them :-)
16:34	BrandonW	but i don't quite understand why
16:34	tomoj	avarus: hopefully the instructions in the post should work perfectly there, when you're ready
16:34	itistoday	is there a way to precompile .clj files to .class files?
16:35	alexyk	cemerick: ah, now I am deconfused. in , not out
16:35	BrandonW	i can kind of see the importance of applying partial to itself before beginning to apply the arguments to the resulting function
16:35	lancepantz	http://www.pastie.org/811705
16:35	avarus	oh, too bad, the download doesn't work at that website :>
16:35	BrandonW	but i don't quite understand why leaving the first 'partial' out prevents the faux-curry from working
16:35	lancepantz	i want to see the body as a string
16:35	alexyk	cemerick: do you determine structure: tables, hierarchy?
16:35	avarus	it redirects me to the main website: http://emacsformacosx.com/
16:35	itistoday	like say if you have two .clj files in a directory and they call code from each other, how would you run that from the command line?
16:35	arohner	itistoday: yes, http://clojure.org/compilation
16:35	kotarak	itistoday: http://clojure.org/compilation
16:36	tomoj	avarus: hmm, when I click download a dmg tries to download
16:36	cemerick	alexyk: Yes, in many circumstances. We're currently working on something that is generally-applicable, and outrageously accurate and absurdly configurable.
16:36	avarus	oww..the world hates me today :)
16:36	cemerick	and can be applied to any file type
16:36	technomancy	itistoday: you can also use clojure.main
16:36	tomoj	cemerick: just curious then, did you investigate tika?
16:36	itistoday	technomancy: how?
16:36	alexyk	cemerick: can it also regrow hair and obtain models?
16:37	itistoday	technomancy: just specify both of the files?
16:37	kotarak	,(doc compile)
16:37	clojurebot	"([lib]); Compiles the namespace named by the symbol lib into a set of classfiles. The source for the lib must be in a proper classpath-relative directory. The output files will go into the directory specified by compile-path, and that directory too must be in the classpath."
16:37	technomancy	itistoday: java -cp /path/to/clojure.jar:/path/to/your/project/src clojure.main -e "(use 'my-project) (invoke-my-projects-function)"
16:37	avarus	tomoj: oh great, I'm downloading it 15 times now lol
16:37	tomoj	haha
16:37	technomancy	itistoday: not exactly what I'd call convenient
16:37	technomancy	most people write bash wrappers
16:38	cemerick	tomoj: briefly, it's not particularly interesting, IMO
16:38	alexyk	cemerick: I know a business interested in detecting the hierarchy, with an end-user product for PDF conversion.
16:38	itistoday	technomancy: right, 'clj' etc. this is actually a question someone asked on the mailing list that i'd like to answer for them, but I've been bad and haven't even attempted to reproduce this because of how little clojure coding i've done. thanks for the answer! i'll pass it along
16:38	tomoj	cemerick: ok, I just discovered it and haven't looked at any details
16:39	tomoj	I guess our requirements probably don't match anyway
16:39	cemerick	alexyk: send them our way, we might be able to help
16:39	BrandonW	alexyk: that is an interesting question. i wonder if you could correlate activity in this irc channel with data on who is in here, what time zone they are in, if they are using clojure in the workplace, or in their own time at home
16:40	cemerick	tomoj: it's fundamentally content-oriented, which is OK, but not up to snuff for structured data extraction
16:40	tomoj	sounds perfect for me then :D
16:40	cemerick	yeah, tons of useful things you can do with it
16:40	tomoj	BrandonW: based on when they're working?
16:40	arohner	chouser: I came up with a new arrow trick. You've probably already thought of it, but it amuses me
16:41	arohner	(-> (fn [x] ...) (reduce my-seq))
16:41	tomoj	I'm in here during work hours all the time, but hardly ever actually using clojure at work :/
16:41	alexyk	cemerick: sure, will forward the idea (they are on .NET and may be doing it in-house in some G-dawful Y# thing though)
16:41	cemerick	tomoj: our aim is to be able to take any document type (invoice, resumé, financial disclosure, tax form, the federal register, etc etc), a configuration, and have fundamentally database-ready data flow out.
16:42	cemerick	alexyk: PDFTextStream.NET is available :-)
16:42	tomoj	sounds... fun
16:42	alexyk	cemerick: did you see the guy with OCaml PDF ported it all into F# too?
16:42	cemerick	alexyk: no, link?
16:43	alexyk	hold on
16:44	alexyk	http://www.coherentpdf.com/ -- and ocaml code exists as a literate book
16:44	alexyk	I bet you can translate ocaml into clojure almost literally or programmatically
16:44	BrandonW	tomoj: yeah. you'd have to assume a lot about average working hours, but it would be an interesting experiment to graph the activity of this channel and try to infer things from it
16:45	tomoj	yeah
16:45	BrandonW	i'm here usually during work, but same as you
16:45	BrandonW	i'm learning it at home
16:45	tomoj	even just looking at the activity patterns would interest me
16:45	BrandonW	but occasionally at work i will read up on the pdf and try stuff out
16:45	alexyk	let's start with metadata "I'm at work pretending to work" or "I'm at home working from home", etc. :)
16:45	BrandonW	then i come here with my questions on currying :)
16:45	alexyk	then some powerful machine learning will be running in Incanter!
16:46	alexyk	we need volunteers to tell us their true status at all hours of the day
16:46	hiredman	asking for the truth is cheating
16:46	tomoj	I have only gotten to use clojure at work for a couple days, and I've been doing that in the middle of the night
16:46	alexyk	hiredman: ground truth is necessary for the training data
16:46	hiredman	you must use statistics to determine it
16:47	tomoj	is the ml stuff in incanter now? :D
16:47	avarus	I want to use clojure for a project at work so I'm the only one able to master it :P
16:47	BrandonW	we will actually have the freedom to use clojure at work, once we finish our initial re-implementation of everything that we inherited (in C#)
16:47	alexyk	hiredman: statistics cannot pull ground truth out of, well, air
16:47	avarus	so I will be at least :P
16:47	kotarak	I seem to be the only one to be knocked out by corporate firewall. :/
16:47	BrandonW	unfortunately my co-worker is a bit more enamored by scala (but that is mostly because of lift)
16:47	tomoj	I got an e-mail from a co-worked about lift the other day.. ignored it
16:47	avarus	I learned scala...it's a big language imho
16:47	BrandonW	yeah
16:48	BrandonW	it will be better than java and C#, and i think i would like it more than python/ruby
16:48	avarus	I like "simple" and light languages
16:48	BrandonW	but i definitely am leaning towards clojure. compojure just isn't quite as far along as lift is
16:48	BrandonW	(in terms of convincing my co-worker :D)
16:48	tomoj	I think that's on purpose, though
16:48	avarus	I don't like lift because it puts me quite in a straight jacket
16:48	BrandonW	yeah
16:49	BrandonW	yep
16:49	BrandonW	i only just realized the other day
16:49	alexyk	as I said earlier on #scala: Scala. She was a strict, bossy bitch. Clojure: he was a bad-ass drifter. Together, they had to fight the Java mob.
16:49	tomoj	so those of us that want more need to build it on top of compojure I suppose
16:49	BrandonW	how easy it is to implement authentication/authorization in compojure
16:49	avarus	alexyk: hehe
16:49	tomoj	BrandonW: really? I've been thinking about that
16:49	BrandonW	at first i thought it was funky that it was left out, then i realized it really is only 30 or so lines of code, and you can completely customize it then
16:49	tomoj	BrandonW: just basic user/pass auth?
16:49	somnium	it seems compojure is trying to dissolve into an library for ring so someone else can write liftjure or whatever
16:49	BrandonW	the example from the compojure wiki
16:49	BrandonW	well not necessarily basic
16:50	BrandonW	but that's where customization comes in
16:50	tomoj	ah, I need to write an oauth provider :/
16:50	BrandonW	it is really easy to just grab a value from a form for user/pass, auth it against database/xml/hardcoded values, etc
16:50	BrandonW	and then store it in a cookie via jetty
16:50	avarus	tomoj: I already spotted a lib for oauth in clojure
16:50	avarus	at github
16:50	tomoj	probably client only, I bet
16:50	avarus	ya
16:51	avarus	ah "provider"
16:51	avarus	missed it :)
16:51	itistoday	ok i'm actually trying this myself now, i've got two clj files, both of them seem to specify the same namespace but the files obviously have different names
16:51	BrandonW	i didn't realize jetty takes care of all the cookie information for you, which is great. you just add the information about how the user is authenticated to the session, and everything is taken care of for you
16:51	somnium	alexyk: :) what was the reaction to that comment?
16:51	tomoj	BrandonW: what exactly do you mean?
16:51	itistoday	foo.clj and foo-utils.clj, how do i run them using the typical 'clj' shell script?
16:51	tomoj	my cookie code doesn't care about jetty
16:51	BrandonW	basically, i didn't realize that compojure doesn't need to implement cookie handling of authentication; that jetty does it for you
16:51	BrandonW	oh
16:52	itistoday	he/I are obviously not using the ns/use/require functions correctly
16:52	tomoj	hmm, strange
16:52	BrandonW	maybe i mis-read the wiki
16:52	BrandonW	let me load it up
16:52	tomoj	nah, you're probably right
16:52	tomoj	compojure is still largely mysterious to me
16:52	itistoday	want to just be able to do: clj foo.clj
16:53	itistoday	does foo-util.clj have to be in a different namespace?
16:53	avarus	I asked the other day what template engine I can use and some said "compojure". I realized it doesn't have such a thing...only (html [:h1... etc...
16:53	itistoday	it has a single function defined in it that's called from foo.clj
16:53	tomoj	BrandonW: link, though?
16:53	itistoday	avarus: use gulliver
16:53	tomoj	avarus: enlive is an option
16:53	BrandonW	http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/compojure-security-authentication-and-authorization/
16:53	itistoday	enlive doesn't let you do PHP-style templating
16:54	tomoj	good
16:54	tomoj	:P
16:54	itistoday	tomoj: it's not
16:54	avarus	itistoday: I'll have a look, thanks
16:54	itistoday	i mean, it's useful sometimes to do it the enlive route, but for example if you're serving "static" pages, like a homepage, it's not good
16:54	itistoday	tomoj: designers hate it
16:55	itistoday	avarus: http://www.brool.com/index.php/a-modest-proposal
16:55	itistoday	now, if someone can help me with this damned newbie question
16:55	itistoday	there should be a page somewhere that tells you how to run two .clj files from the command line
16:55	itistoday	it's like clojure 101
16:56	BrandonW	tomoj: read that page i linked, then look at the comment from James, jan 5th 2009 6:27 PM
16:56	tomoj	itistoday: why would designers hate it? I'd think it'd be better
16:56	BrandonW	starts with "Jetty uses an in-memory session store..."
16:57	Chousuke	tomoj: that's my impression too
16:57	tomoj	they can just make a static html page which they can view in their browser locally
16:57	itistoday	tomoj: yes, if that's all they want to do
16:57	tomoj	ah, I see
16:57	itistoday	but usually designers want to be able to do the equivalent of PHP's include()
16:57	tomoj	so, designers that want some access to code stuff but don't want to deal with enlive?
16:57	itistoday	tomoj: yes
16:57	tomoj	ah, yeah
16:58	tomoj	you could probably hack that in, but, yeah
16:58	itistoday	that's really all they want, to use include so they don't have to change code in 20 million places
16:58	Chousuke	well, you could use a placeholder element for that..
16:59	tomoj	I haven't figured out layouts/subtemplates with enlive yet
16:59	tomoj	BrandonW: I'm confused by that
16:59	itistoday	so here's what the guy posted to the mailing list: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/174385/
16:59	kotarak	tomoj: simply functions
16:59	tomoj	BrandonW: there's no with-session
16:59	itistoday	i'm guessing he's using 'require' incorrectly
17:00	Chousuke	But I think designers would like to be able to write a template which has placeholder elements that will be replaced and modified by systems like enlive :/
17:00	itistoday	,require
17:00	clojurebot	#<core$require__6458 clojure.core$require__6458@1eed1e1>
17:00	itistoday	,(doc require)
17:00	clojurebot	"([& args]); Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded. Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. Libs A 'lib' is a named set of resources in classpath whose contents define a library of Cloju
17:00	kotarak	itistoday: require must be load
17:00	tomoj	maybe he is doing sessions in some other way besides using compojure's session middleware?
17:00	kotarak	itistoday: the ns in foo-utils must be in-ns 'foo
17:01	alexyk	somnium: I'm using both clojure and scala and promote world peace in general, so folks take it the right way
17:01	Chousuke	perhaps you could have a simple preprocessor for such templates that allows for includes or some other simple manipulations
17:01	tomoj	my understanding was that the choice of where to put the session is made when you wrap the with-session middleware, not by jetty
17:02	BrandonW	tomoj: i'm not fluent in compojure at all at this point, but it looks like his login-controller method takes in a session & params, alters teh session by adding the user's authenticated name to the dictionary of session key/vals
17:02	itistoday	kotarak: here's where i am now: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/174387/
17:03	tomoj	yeah, I just don't understand where the session ref comes from in the first place
17:03	itistoday	kotarak: still getting an exception :-p
17:03	BrandonW	and then at that point, the plaintext name/val of the authenticated user would be stored in memory on the server, and the cookie would have a securely random key pointing to that piece of data
17:03	kotarak	itistoday: because you obviously don't load foo-utils: (ns foo (:load "foo-utils"))
17:03	BrandonW	so then jetty takes care of cookies for you, and all you have to worry about is the act of authenticated the user (which is easy)
17:04	tomoj	I guess either compojure has changed since that was written or there's some sessions-without-with-session feature.. did you try running that code?
17:04	BrandonW	no
17:04	BrandonW	haven't even finished learning clojure at this point
17:04	tomoj	oh well, in any case, you're right, it's easy :)
17:04	arohner	the default session handler is in-memory
17:04	arohner	I believe it's a middleware
17:04	itistoday	kotarak: thanks! that's what i was missing, because I had no idea. :-p
17:04	tomoj	arohner: yeah, that was my understanding
17:04	BrandonW	but what i'm thining is it doesn't really even matter exactly what compojure can or can't do, unless you're saying compojure doesn't allow you to add variables to the session?
17:04	arohner	but yes, you can replace session handling with e..g a database if you want
17:04	tomoj	looking at code that is using sessions without with-session somehow
17:04	BrandonW	*thinking
17:05	tomoj	BrandonW: I'm saying there is no session at all unless you use with-session
17:05	itistoday	kotarak: you know, i'm looking on the clojure site and i don't see this documented anywhere
17:05	arohner	but compojure by design has no dependency on a database
17:05	tomoj	and in that case, compojure sends the cookies and manages the sessions in memory
17:05	arohner	that's higher up the stack
17:05	BrandonW	hmm
17:05	BrandonW	by manages the cookies, you mean it doesn't let jetty do it automatically?
17:06	tomoj	well, jetty sends the cookies to the browser
17:06	tomoj	but compojure builds it
17:06	tomoj	"Set-Cookie: compojure-session=...." or something like that
17:06	BrandonW	interesting. yeah i'll have to play around with it once i get to that point
17:07	tomoj	and you could swap out jetty with whatever and it would work the same
17:07	BrandonW	i have a couple smaller projects i want to use clojure for first, but after that a web site is my primary goal.
17:07	kotarak	itistoday: well, you have to leave something to the gurus to shine. ;)
17:07	tomoj	I think it's a good idea to wait a while before tackling compojure
17:07	BrandonW	why?
17:07	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
17:08	BrandonW	in terms of clojure experience? or waiting for the api to be more stable?
17:08	tomoj	well, I was thinking the former
17:08	BrandonW	this is my first foray into functional programming AND in a lisp variant
17:08	tomoj	but compojure is getting refactored, so the latter is relevant as well
17:09	tomoj	well, good luck :)
17:09	BrandonW	i definitely feel like i'm living in flatland trying to comprehend 3 dimensions, sometimes (to rip off carl sagan :))
17:09	tomoj	I seriously watched that video earlier today
17:09	somnium	flatland is a great book :)
17:10	technomancy	BrandonW: that would be 4 dimensions then. =)
17:10	tomoj	(and downloaded cosmos :D)
17:10	BrandonW	yeah i have cosmos on my netflix. haven't watched it yet though
17:10	alexyk	hmm -- my manual clojure repl starter doesn't load the user.clj in the current dir. Is it the job of the clojure.main?
17:10	BrandonW	just rented contact and watched that again. that movie is very different from when you were like 13, to when you're 25... haha
17:11	hiredman	alexyk: is . on your classpath?
17:11	hiredman	user.clj is loaded from the classpath
17:11	alexyk	hiredman: qed, thx
17:14	BrandonW	okay so i still don't quite understand faux-curry from programming clojure, if anyone wants to take a stab at helping me before i go home :D
17:15	BrandonW	(defn faux-curry [& args] (apply partial partial args))
17:15	avarus	do you have to?
17:15	BrandonW	is the only reason to apply the partial function to itself, so that you end up with something that needs to be evaluated twice in order to obtain the result at the end?
17:16	BrandonW	no, but it seems like one of the things that if you don't understand it, it limits your power within the functional paradigm
17:16	BrandonW	and i like having power :D
17:16	avarus	ok :)
17:16	alexyk	hmm: I had in my user.clj, (set! print-length 42), and upon launch, repl fails with: Can't change/establish root binding of: print-length with set. But I can do it once the repl is up manually. ?
17:16	somnium	BrandonW: theres always monad tutorials :)
17:16	BrandonW	yeah i'll wait a bit on those :)
17:17	BrandonW	stuart halloway does frequent this channel, right?
17:18	BrandonW	that would be pretty cool, being explained a concept from the book by its author, heh
17:19	tomoj	(faux-curry + 1) == (apply partial partial [+ 1]) == (partial partial + 1)
17:20	tomoj	((faux-curry + 1) 2) == ((partial partial + 1) 2) == (partial + 1 2)
17:20	tomoj	(((faux-curry + 1) 2) 3) == ((partial + 1 2) 3) == (+ 1 2 3) == 6
17:21	tomoj	guess it's clearer with just (faux-curry +)
17:23	tomoj	but yeah, you end up with something that when called returns something that when called returns the answer
17:24	tomoj	as opposed to (defn faux-curry [& args] (apply partial args)) where you can just do ((faux-curry + 1) 2) and get the answer with one call
17:24	hiredman	tomoj: that is partial
17:24	tomoj	I don't remember that from the book.. seems strange
17:25	tomoj	yep
17:25	arohner	alexyk: you can only set! bindings when you're already inside a binding for that var
17:25	arohner	the repl sets up bindings for print-length and a few other things
17:26	arohner	user.clj gets loaded "outside" of the repl, so it doesn't work
17:26	alexyk	arohner: so why can I do that one the repl shows me the prompt, but not from user.clj? am I doomed to manually do that?
17:27	arohner	the repl code looks like
17:27	arohner	(binding [print-length ...] (do-repl))
17:27	arohner	when you require from the repl, you're inside do-repl
17:27	arohner	i.e. inside the binding for print-length
17:28	alexyk	arohner: (set! print-lengtn 42) works fine in repl though
17:28	arohner	right
17:28	arohner	you can set! a var, if you're inside a binding
17:28	alexyk	so when does clojure.main read user.clj?
17:28	arohner	not inside the repl
17:28	alexyk	pity
17:29	alexyk	is the purpose of user.clj to serve the repl, or any old clojure launch?
17:30	arohner	how are you starting clojure?
17:30	tomoj	user.clj has a purpose?
17:30	alexyk	arohner: java ... clojure.main
17:30	alexyk	tomoj: yeah, it's like .clojurerc
17:31	tomoj	you put it in your home directory?
17:31	alexyk	tomoj: on the classpath
17:31	tomoj	oh, crazy, for adding stuff to the repl?
17:31	tomoj	I was thinking earlier I wanted to auto-require repl-utils
17:31	alexyk	but, it just let me down, in terms of the crucial failure to set print-length to prevent Britannica from being shoved into my screen
17:32	alexyk	last time rlwrap consumed it for 10 hours
17:33	alexyk	but I wonder how can we hack the repl to run stuff form inside
17:33	alexyk	automatically
17:33	alexyk	arohner: is there any other way to start a repl? aside from swank or something?
17:34	arohner	(clojure.main/repl)
17:34	arohner	you can even
17:34	arohner	(binding [print-length 42] (clojure.main/repl))
17:35	arohner	that probably won't work if you're connecting over swank
17:36	alexyk	arohner: so I'd put it into a file, myrepl.clj? what's the full command line then?
17:37	alexyk	java ...clojure on classpath... clojure.main myrepl.clj # ?
17:37	arohner	alexyk: yup
17:37	alexyk	so if not given a file, clojure.main starts repl itself?
17:37	arohner	alexyk: (doc clojure.main/main)
17:38	alexyk	,(doc clojure.main/main)
17:38	clojurebot	"([& args]); Usage: java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main [init-opt] [main-opt] [arg] With no options or args, runs an interactive Read-Eval-Print Loop init options: -i, --init path Load a file or resource -e, --eval string Evaluate expressions in string; print non-nil values main options: -r, --repl Run a repl path Run a script from from a file or resource - Run a script from standard input -h, -?, --help Print this help me
17:38	alexyk	aha
17:38	arohner	alexyk: it's longer than clojurebot will print, and looks better formatted correctly ;-)
17:38	alexyk	arohner: somehow I feel more energized to read it along with 222 other people :)
17:38	alexyk	and clojurebot
17:39	alexyk	damn, 4 escaped
17:39	arohner	oh, another option would be to eval (require 'myuser.clj)
17:40	arohner	it looks like eval'ing gets run inside the repl
17:41	alexyk	arohner: that's good, no need to modify launchers
17:41	alexyk	stick stuff into user.clj and user-eval.clj
17:42	arohner	you're not using the --init option, are you?
17:42	arohner	I think that does (require 'foo) for you
17:42	alexyk	arohner: how does it know to bind before, but eval after, repl-in'? no --init, never heard of it
17:42	arohner	clojure.main --init foo file.clj
17:42	alexyk	but I can
17:42	alexyk	init is ok
17:43	arohner	if you specify a file and no --repl, it runs the file and quits
17:45	arohner	man, it seems like slime-repl has an n^2 loop somewhere
17:45	arohner	finding parenthesis or something, but it gets sluggish after awhile
17:47	technomancy	arohner: there's a clear-output command
17:47	technomancy	but I haven't noticed it myself
17:48	arohner	technomancy: I'm running an old, funky version. maybe it's been fixed already
17:49	arohner	hah: Warning (undo): Buffer `slime-repl clojure' undo info was 33180469 bytes long.
17:49	arohner	The undo info was discarded because it exceeded `undo-outer-limit'.
17:49	arohner	there's your problem
17:49	arohner	technomancy: thanks
17:58	duncanm	is there an easy way to queue up agents so that i don't have too many concurrent agents running at the same time?
18:00	hiredman	duncanm: send uses a fixed-sized threadpool, so it will only run 2+cores actions
18:01	duncanm	hiredman: what about send-off?
18:01	hiredman	send-off is an open pool, it grows as needed
18:04	duncanm	hiredman: i have a big grid of tiles, and these tiles show up one by one - right now, there's loop that looks out for these tile, and for each tile, it fires off some agents looking for adjacent tiles, and stalls when the adjacent tiles are not available (yet)
18:04	duncanm	hiredman: so that seems to be a reasonable design; but the issue is, right now i want to run it on a grid where all the tiles are already there - i don't want all the agents to go crazy all at once (is that a problem?)
18:07	hiredman	the looking for tiles part sounds like a canidate for send-off, and the other stuff you do (once the tile is found?) maybe for send
18:09	duncanm	hiredman: http://gist.github.com/296362 - i think you saw this yesterday already
18:09	duncanm	hiredman: the looking and calculating stuff is all in one step
18:10	hiredman	shrug
18:10	duncanm	also, i feel kinda guilty using a map with [x y z] keys instead of something more specific
18:11	duncanm	in fact, a sorted-map
18:12	duncanm	hiredman: oh! i can just wrap the 'really-calculate-offset' part in another agent....
18:12	hiredman	you could thread it through a few sends and send-offs to the same agent
18:12	duncanm	(not (false? tile)) (send (agent "calculating...") really-calculate-offset file (:file tile) direction)
18:12	duncanm	hmm
18:12	duncanm	ahh
18:12	hiredman	sort of CPS with agents
18:13	duncanm	right
18:13	hiredman	agent is bound to the current agent in an executing action
18:14	duncanm	i'm only using send-off because of the Thread/sleep
18:14	duncanm	checking if the tile exists doesn't involve IO, because i have an in-memory set for all the known files
18:14	duncanm	a ref to a set
18:15	duncanm	hiredman: i fear that i'm over-engineering - the problem itself doesn't actually have much concurrency to it
18:17	hiredman	you could use future and hydra :D
18:17	duncanm	what's hydra?
18:17	duncanm	i should look into using future
18:17	AWizzArd	,(find-doc "hydra")
18:17	clojurebot	nil
18:18	hiredman	~hydra
18:18	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:18	hiredman	clojurebot: worthless
18:18	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:19	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/Repl/blob/master/src/hiredman/hydra.clj
18:19	duncanm	hmm, what's the difference between future and agent?
18:20	hiredman	a future is one shot, you cannot send an action to it
18:20	duncanm	and futures are run off a finite threadpool?
18:20	hiredman	hydra is a linkedblocking queue that when deref'ed gives you a lazy seq of the items placed in the queue
18:21	hiredman	basically it is a sort of shared message bus
18:21	hiredman	duncanm: futures use the same threadpool as send-off
18:21	hiredman	(so yes)
18:21	duncanm	so it's not finite, right? it grows as needed?
18:21	hiredman	uh
18:22	hiredman	what is the difference?
18:22	duncanm	18:00 <hiredman> duncanm: send uses a fixed-sized threadpool, so it will only run 2+cores actions
18:22	duncanm	either way
18:22	hiredman	Repl uses hydra and ends up with 23 threads blocking waiting for stuff at startup
18:23	duncanm	i should probably try it and see if it thrashes my machine before thinking about all this
18:23	hiredman	duncanm: the send threadpool is bounded, the send-off is not
18:23	duncanm	and you're saying future's threadpool is not bounded?
18:24	hiredman	"the send threadpool is bounded, the send-off is not" + "futures use the same threadpool as send-off" = "future's threadpool is not bounded"
18:24	duncanm	hiredman: agreed
20:02	kmurph79	is anyone using textmate? the clojure bundle doesn't autoformat correctly
20:19	avarus	hi kmurph79
20:19	avarus	which bundle are you using?
20:19	avarus	I know two, but I don't like both
20:19	avarus	for me the parens highlighting doesn't work
20:19	avarus	sucks incredibly
20:19	kmurph79	avarus: nullstyle's
20:20	kmurph79	i guess we should go to emacs?
20:20	avarus	http://github.com/stephenroller/clojure-tmbundle <-- at least this works
20:20	avarus	ya, I guess :(
20:21	avarus	I tried aquamacs...seems easy but is a pita as well if you want to do more :P
20:21	kmurph79	the bundle code is pretty scary, not sure how to fix it
20:21	avarus	hehe
20:22	avarus	and it's old, not updated since 2 years or so
20:22	kmurph79	i've used carbon emacs with success previously
20:23	kmurph79	textmate is just so much easier
20:23	avarus	there is a lisp bundle on the svn server at macro* but I haven't tried it yet
20:23	avarus	looks old, probably sucks as well .P
20:24	tomoj	avarus: it's a pita because emacs is difficult to learn?
20:25	avarus	because I never used emacs before
20:25	avarus	I don't know if it's hard to learn
20:25	avarus	never tried to
20:25	tomoj	ah
20:25	tomoj	it is, I think :)
20:25	jasapp	it's not hard to learn the basics
20:25	tomoj	if I say "it's worth it" I guess it won't mean much because I'm just another emacs zombie
20:26	tomoj	sure, type a key to have that character show up on the screen?
20:26	jasapp	yeah, I'm just an emacs zombie too
20:26	tomoj	arrow keys and mouse work too, so
20:26	jasapp	avarus: do you use screen?
20:26	avarus	on my server I do, not on my workstation
20:26	tomoj	I never used textmate for clojure so I dunno what features feel missing for an emacs noob
20:27	jasapp	think of emacs as a version of screen that's actually a text editor
20:27	avarus	tomoj: imagine clojure or lisp code without parens being highlighted
20:28	avarus	not being matched
20:28	tomoj	hard for me to imagine clojure or lisp code without parens
20:28	avarus	just horror
20:28	tomoj	oh, I see what you mean
20:28	tomoj	but, what feels missing in emacs I mean?
20:28	tomoj	i.e. what makes you want to use textmate instead
20:29	kmurph79	textmate beats emacs for 90% of my actions, but emacs has a bunch of crazy stuff
20:29	tomoj	I guess general editor stuff feels easier
20:29	tomoj	hmm
20:29	jasapp	can you evaluate clojure code with a command in textmate?
20:29	avarus	eh yes, I want to use textmate because it's idiot-proof
20:29	tomoj	I highly doubt textmate could beat emacs for 90% of your actions if your actions include typing clojure code
20:29	kmurph79	tomoj: probably not
20:29	tomoj	looks like they have a hacked up repl
20:29	jasapp	ahh
20:29	tomoj	runs in screen in the background
20:30	avarus	that would not even be a requirement for me :)
20:30	avarus	just proper highlighting would be enough :>
20:30	tomoj	it should be, imo
20:30	avarus	na, i have my scripts
20:30	tomoj	you have scripts which amount to a repl in-editor?
20:30	avarus	and when I want the repl, I can start it :)
20:31	tomoj	eh, maybe someday you'll understand :P
20:31	tomoj	or like I said maybe I am just a zombie
20:31	avarus	what do you mean?
20:31	tomoj	I mean I could not imagine using textmate for clojure even if it had highlighting
20:31	tomoj	(and parens matching)
20:32	avarus	I have no special requirements for things like that :)
20:33	blbrown_win	,(+ 1 1)
20:33	clojurebot	2
20:34	tomoj	huh, waitaminute
20:34	blbrown_win	,(.replaceAll " x " "x" "y")
20:34	clojurebot	" y "
20:34	tomoj	M-. just opened up core.clj for me
20:34	blbrown_win	,(.replaceAll " x " "\\w+" "y")
20:34	clojurebot	" y "
20:34	blbrown_win	,(.replaceAll " x " "\\w+" "y")
20:34	clojurebot	" y "
20:34	blbrown_win	,(.replaceAll " x " "\\w" "y")
20:34	clojurebot	" y "
20:34	blbrown_win	,(.replaceAll " x " "\w" "y")
20:34	clojurebot	Unsupported escape character: \w
20:35	jasapp	I love M-.
20:35	tomoj	guess it only works for clojure.jar?
20:35	blbrown_win	,(.replaceAll " x " "\\s" "y")
20:35	clojurebot	"yxy"
20:35	tomoj	I thought it didn't work for jars at all
20:36	jasapp	I found out about it a month or two ago, and it's opened jars since then.
20:36	jasapp	I think
20:36	tomoj	huh, appears to work for any clojure jars, yeah
20:36	tomoj	someone told me the other day it only worked for .cljs on the classpath
20:37	tomoj	anyway, that's a good example I think. point at a function and press M-. and you jump to the function's definition
20:37	tomoj	cmd-t in textmate is pretty cool, but
21:11	avarus	good night
21:11	avarus	*megayawn
21:52	AWizzArd	~max people
21:52	clojurebot	max people is 245
22:12	BrandonW	is anyone here familiar with the partial function vs currying?
22:13	BrandonW	i feel that i might have an obsession with understanding this... haha
22:14	hiredman	,((partial (partial + 1) 2) 3)
22:14	clojurebot	6
22:15	BrandonW	right, in Programming Clojure, it defines a faux-curry as (apply partial partial args)
22:16	hiredman	I doubt it
22:16	BrandonW	(defn faux-curry [& args] (apply partial partial args))
22:16	hiredman	what page?
22:16	BrandonW	145
22:16	BrandonW	on the text version
22:17	BrandonW	at the bottom
22:17	BrandonW	Lazier than lazy, soon after the gray box titled 'Faces of def'
22:18	hiredman	that is dumb
22:18	BrandonW	i see that the partial function is extremely close to faux-curry, but i don't understand what the significance of faux-curry is, if you have to add an extra set of parens to force it to eval
22:18	hiredman	BrandonW: you don't
22:19	BrandonW	is there a better implementation of curry out there that doesn't require the extra eval?
22:19	hiredman	,(letfn [(faux-curry [& args] (apply partial partial args))] (faux-curry +))
22:19	clojurebot	#<core$partial__5034$fn__5036 clojure.core$partial__5034$fn__5036@16c426b>
22:19	hiredman	BrandonW: you can't really curry in clojure because functions can (and often do) have variable arity
22:20	hiredman	,(letfn [(faux-curry [& args] (apply partial partial args))] ((faux-curry +) 1))
22:20	clojurebot	#<core$partial__5034$fn__5036 clojure.core$partial__5034$fn__5036@83dcf8>
22:20	hiredman	,(letfn [(faux-curry [& args] (apply partial partial args))] (((faux-curry +) 1) 2))
22:20	clojurebot	3
22:21	hiredman	that is not really currying because + can a variable number of args, so there is no way to tell when you finished applying
22:21	BrandonW	right
22:21	BrandonW	so if it was real currying, would it work exactly the same way as partial already does?
22:21	BrandonW	except that once it knew all args were satisfied, it would evaluate the result?
22:21	hiredman	yes
22:22	BrandonW	i don't understand what the point of faux-curry is then
22:22	BrandonW	it seems to complexify the partial method for a reason i don't understand
22:22	BrandonW	err partial function :D
22:23	hiredman	BrandonW: partial takes a function and at least one argument
22:23	hiredman	you can't partially apply a function to nothing
22:24	hiredman	partial results in a function that has been partial applied, faux-curry will result in a function that can be partially applied to one argument
22:24	hiredman	but yes, I think faux-curry is dumb
22:25	hiredman	,(pl (↕map (replicate 3 (range 3)) call · (⌽map inc)))
22:25	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (1 2 3) (1 2 3))
22:25	danlarkin	clojurebot dsl scares me
22:25	johannh	Is there a map-accum (like Haskell's) anywhere in clojure-contrib? I can't seem to find it.
22:26	hiredman	johannh: what does map-accum do?
22:26	johannh	It threads state through a map. Like scan, if that helps. Half-map, half reduce.
22:27	hiredman	example input and output?
22:31	johannh	(map-accum (fn [acc x] [(assoc acc x) (acc x)]) #{} '(:a :b :b :c :d :c)) -> (nil nil :b nil nil :c)
22:31	johannh	It takes a function that takes a state and and value, and returns a new-state and a new-value.
22:32	johannh	Given an initial-state and a list, it threads that state through the items in the list, collecting the values as it goes.
22:32	hiredman	#{} is a set
22:32	hiredman	assoc won't work
22:32	johannh	Shoots. conj. I keep forgetting. Is that right?
22:33	hiredman	how is that different from a reduce?
22:33	hiredman	conj will work sure,
22:33	hiredman	or a fold?
22:34	johannh	Oh, sorry. The result should be [final-accum new-list], so [#{:a :b :c :d} (nil nil :b nil nil :c)]
22:34	johannh	Well, it's a reduce on the accumulating parameter, but like a map on the input.
22:35	johannh	Reduce/fold takes a seq and returns a single item. Map takes a seq and returns another seq.
22:35	johannh	In any case, sounds like I might as well implement my own.
22:35	hiredman	hmm
22:39	johannh	Another example: (map-accum (fn [sum x] [(+ sum x) (* x sum)]) 0 '(1 2 3)) -> [6 '(0 2 9)]
22:39	hiredman	,(reduce (fn [{:keys [accum result]} x] {:accum (conj accum x) :result (accum x result (conj result x))}) {:accum #{} :result []} [:a :b :b :c :d :c])
22:39	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentHashSet
22:39	hiredman	gah
22:39	hiredman	teaches me to be clever
22:40	hiredman	,(reduce (fn [{:keys [accum result]} x] {:accum (conj accum x) :result (conj result (accum x))}) {:accum #{} :result []} [:a :b :b :c :d :c])
22:40	clojurebot	{:accum #{:a :c :b :d}, :result [nil nil :b nil nil :c]}
22:42	hiredman	,((comp (juxt :accum :result) reduce) (fn [{:keys [accum result]} x] {:accum (conj accum x) :result (conj result (accum x))}) {:accum #{} :result []} [:a :b :b :c :d :c])
22:42	clojurebot	[#{:a :c :b :d} [nil nil :b nil nil :c]]
22:43	johannh	The context is that I'm trying to unmarshall a vector of values. As I go, I want to thread a map of id->refs through, so if I run into a reference to a ref that I've seen before, I can insert the same reference.
22:44	hiredman	why not reduce into a map of ids to refs?
22:46	johannh	Because I want to return the vector of unmarshalled-refs, not just the ref lookup map.
22:46	johannh	I think that's the first time I actually saw a use of juxt.
22:47	hiredman	well, it's new
22:55	johannh	That's a nice example, thanks. How does the (fn [{:keys [accum result]} x ..) work. I feel like I've seen that before, but it's not syntax I'm familiar with.
22:56	johannh	Ah, found it in the destructuring docs. I should remember that.
22:58	wilig	newbie question: why is this false? (contains? [:user :password :email] :user)
22:58	hiredman	,(doc contains?)
22:58	clojurebot	"([coll key]); Returns true if key is present in the given collection, otherwise returns false. Note that for numerically indexed collections like vectors and Java arrays, this tests if the numeric key is within the range of indexes. 'contains?' operates constant or logarithmic time; it will not perform a linear search for a value. See also 'some'."
22:58	hiredman	good?
22:59	wilig	ah, ok.
23:03	somnium	johannh: theres the state monad in c.c.monads, which sounds exactly like the haskell fn you describe
23:03	somnium	though a reduce or loop is more common in clojure
23:06	johannh	I don't think the state monad is quite it. Monads go from M a -> (a -> M b) -> M b, so if the monad were just keeping around state, you'd have to provide some extra rule to accumulate the state.
23:08	johannh	Maybe I don't understand the state monad well, but I figured it would be going from [state x] -> (x -> [state' y]) -> [state'' y'], where the monady-bit would be responsible for combining state and state' into the final result.
23:09	johannh	Here, my basic function is state -> x -> [state' y], which is different.
23:10	somnium	thats the basic signature of it as Ive read (I cant really claim to understand them)
23:14	somnium	yes, so in m-bind (?) you decide what to do with y, so you can use an accumulator between do forms (sorry if my vocabulary is imprecise, I barely know haskell or monads)
23:15	somnium	in any case in c.c.monads theres an example with an accumulator iirc
23:16	johannh	Eh, I don't know them well myself, but I just re-read the ever-useful Typeclassopedia a few days ago, while wrestling with this same problem. It just feels like there should be a monad answer, but I couldn't find it.
23:18	johannh	I went through a short Haskell kick about this time last year, while in a haze of baby-related sleep deprivation. Memory's fuzzy.
23:21	somnium	ah then reduce or loop will probably be much easier since theres not so much 'stateful' behavior
23:24	somnium	,(require clojure.contrib.monads)
23:24	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.monads
23:25	somnium	,(use 'clojure.contrib.monads)
23:25	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: write already refers to: #'clojure.contrib.pprint/write in namespace: sandbox
23:27	somnium	,(require '[clojure.contrib.monads :as m])
23:27	clojurebot	nil
23:27	somnium	,(doc m/state-m)
23:27	clojurebot	"; Monad describing stateful computations. The monadic values have the structure (fn [old-state] [result new-state])."
23:28	somnium	johannh: is that the signature or am I misunderstanding (quite probable)
23:33	johannh	Hm. It's not quite it. Really, I have (fn [input old-state] [result new-state]); the result depends on a input, not just the state.
23:36	somnium	ah, I see
23:36	johannh	Ah, okay. I get it. The state monad would work.
23:37	johannh	It would just have to be (fn [input] (fn [old-state] [result new-state])); it's a partial-application.
23:37	somnium	probably I would use loop here to be honest :) I just happened to find the state-monad useful in practice last week
23:38	somnium	,(doc m/state-t)
23:38	clojurebot	"([m]); Monad transformer that transforms a monad m into a monad of stateful computations that have the base monad type as their result."
23:39	somnium	this thing too, but Ive drawn the line at transformers thus far :)
23:40	somnium	hth
23:41	johannh	Well, for now map-accum will solve my problem, so I think I'll stick with that, but if things get hairier, I can look deeper into the state monad.
23:41	johannh	I don't know if that helped, but it was fun, so thanks.
23:44	somnium	:)