#clojure – 2010-01-21

2010-01-21

00:26	defn	alexyk: why is macro a better nick
00:26	defn	alexyk: my nick is defn because my real life name is devin -- it's actually just a coincidence that clojure has defn
00:27	alexyk	defn: 'cause macro's beat defn's... ah ok :)
01:26	wooby	hello, i'm getting a strange exception (that i haven't seen in java) when importing quicktime libraries on OS X
01:26	wooby	http://paste.lisp.org/display/93677
01:27	wooby	thanks in advance for any clues
01:31	redalastor	Is there a reason why dissoc-in doesn't exist or it was just forgotten?
01:38	redalastor	Ok, found it in contrib. Why isn't it in core?
01:46	hoeck	wooby: maybe you have to instantiate some QuickTime class before even importing other classes
01:47	wooby	hoeck: i'm testing that now, i think i have to register an exception handler or something... not sure exactly how that's supposed to work
01:48	hoeck	wooby: I think, java loads classes on the first usage whereas clojure loads them (and runs static initializers) on :importing them
02:35	LauJensen	Good morning team !
03:42	TheBusby	this may sound like a bizarre question, but what exactly is "-main" for?
03:43	TheBusby	evidently it's not required to to compile to class files, and execution begins at the top of the file
03:47	Chousuke	-main is the function that corresponds to the main method of your class when gen-classing
03:48	Chousuke	It looks a bit magical I guess, but the "-" is just the default method prefix of gen-class. It can be overridden.
03:53	LauJensen	TheBusby: When you compile an executable jar, -main will execute when calling java -jar my.jar
03:54	TheBusby	I would expect it would be the enly thing executed though
03:55	TheBusby	if you simple do $java helloworld.class though, it'll execute any line preceding -main's definition as well though
03:57	LauJensen	though thats right, the jar execution relies on the manifest which points to a place to start, ie. -main
03:59	TheBusby	just not finding an easy way to have a single clj file execute as both a script and a compiled binary
04:02	TheBusby	thank you for the help though ;)
04:11	vu3rdd	,(doc identity)
04:11	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns its argument."
04:11	vu3rdd	What exactly is the purpose of identity?
04:13	gregh	to return its argument :)
04:13	AWizzArd	vu3rdd: when a function foo takes a function F as an argument to transform its other args, then identity can be a nice default for F.
04:14	AWizzArd	or if foos default is not f and you don't want to transform the other args then pass identity in
04:15	AWizzArd	or if some program part created a vector of values, where some can be nil or false, then identity can help to get all non-nil and non-false values
04:15	AWizzArd	,(filter identity [1 2 nil 3 4 5 false false nil nil nil 6 7 nil 8 9 false 10 false])
04:15	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
04:16	vu3rdd	AWizzArd: thanks. I get it now.
04:19	esj	Salute, Parentherati.
05:19	angerman	I'm doing something like (let [acc (doseq [_ (range 10)] (ref [])) row-worker (fn [row] (dosync (doseq [i (range 10)] (alter (nth acc i) conj (nth row i)))
05:19	angerman	and the row-worker is then used to iterate over a resultset from a database. I'm having the very feeling, that what I did is pretty stupid
05:21	angerman	should I be using transients?
05:23	Chousuke	why are you not just building it functionally?
05:24	angerman	Chousuke: how?
05:25	angerman	hmmm wait a sec
05:25	Chousuke	,(vec (for [i (range rows)] (reduce conj [] (range 5))))
05:25	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: rows in this context
05:25	Chousuke	oops
05:25	Chousuke	,(vec (for [i (range 3)] (reduce conj [] (range 5))))
05:25	clojurebot	[[0 1 2 3 4] [0 1 2 3 4] [0 1 2 3 4]]
05:26	Chousuke	I don't see why you'd need a ref
05:26	Chousuke	you can use transients, but write it without them first
05:27	angerman	Hm. ok. can I reduce maps?
05:27	Chousuke	it's in many cases trivial to transform code using persistents to code that uses transients.
05:27	Chousuke	yeah
05:27	Chousuke	they appear as a seq of [key val] pairs
05:28	angerman	the databse is returning something like {:a val1 :b val2 c: val3}
05:28	Chousuke	to reduce
05:28	Chousuke	,(seq {:a 'a :b 'b})
05:28	clojurebot	([:a a] [:b b])
05:28	angerman	and the end result should look like {:a [val1 ...] :b [val2 ...] :c [val3 ...])
05:29	Chousuke	hm
05:29	LauJensen	I'm parsing a huge dataset and for each row I need to reject values that arent of a certain type. There are about 23000 types which I accept. Which lookup/datatype is most efficient for determining if I accept or reject the value?
05:30	angerman	LauJensen: Hashmap? (wild guess)
05:31	LauJensen	I don't think the hashmap matches vector for speed
05:31	angerman	what are your types? numeric?
05:31	LauJensen	Strings, but can be coerced to numerical
05:31	Chousuke	,(merge-with (fn [a b] (conj (if vector? a a [a]) b)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:a 3 :b 5 :d 7})
05:31	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Too many arguments to if
05:32	Chousuke	eh
05:32	Chousuke	,(merge-with (fn [a b] (conj (if (vector? a) a [a]) b)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:a 3 :b 5 :d 7})
05:32	clojurebot	{:d 7, :a [1 3], :b [2 5], :c 3}
05:32	Chousuke	there's a caveat if your values are vectors though
05:32	angerman	Chousuke: ha, you beat me to it, thanks.
05:32	angerman	Chousuke: no, it's always :key -> double
05:33	angerman	I guess I could initialize a map with vectors
05:33	angerman	and skip the conditional check
05:33	angerman	LauJensen: that's why I asked. as for Strings, i think a hashmap is pretty good
05:34	angerman	and you'll have to compare each value at least once anyway.
05:34	LauJensen	I'm just thinking that hashmaps require me to double the amount of data, but these are just values, now they need a key as well. With a vector I can just dump the data and run through it
05:35	Chousuke	use a set.
05:35	Chousuke	everyone forgets about sets :)
05:35	angerman	(map (partial filter #(contains? keys %)) dataset)
05:35	LauJensen	ah yes ofc
05:35	LauJensen	a set is the way to go
05:35	angerman	how do I tell paredit to comment something out?
05:36	esj	; ?
05:36	LauJensen	; !
05:37	angerman	when I hit ; it just moves the current line one line down
05:37	angerman	and inserts a ; where the curser was
05:43	LauJensen	Well, lets just say - There's a reason I don't use paredit
05:43	angerman	heh
05:44	LauJensen	if t is [[1 2] [3 4] [4 5]] and I want #{1 2 3 4 5} returned, is there an idiom for this
05:44	LauJensen	(reduce #(conj %1 (%2 0) (%2 1)) #{} t)
05:47	janjan	,(into #{} (apply concat [[1 2] [3 4] [4 5]]))
05:47	clojurebot	#{1 2 3 4 5}
05:47	janjan	dunno if it is an idiom, but that's how I would say it
05:48	LauJensen	Its better anyway
05:48	LauJensen	Though reduce trumps apply in most cases
05:48	janjan	the into #{} can be just 'set'
05:48	janjan	i see now
06:04	LauJensen	Nice, thanks jan
06:22	janjan	,(short-array [1 2 3])
06:22	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Short
06:22	janjan	How is creating short[]'s supposed to work?
06:24	the-kenny	janjan: (short-array)?
06:24	the-kenny	,(doc short-array)
06:24	clojurebot	"([size-or-seq] [size init-val-or-seq]); Creates an array of shorts"
06:25	janjan	yea, but then java/clojure won't cast the numbers to shorts
06:28	LauJensen	,(short-array 5 (map short (range 5)))
06:28	clojurebot	#<short[] [S@1b548a>
06:29	janjan	LauJensen: just found out the same thing when you wrote it. Too bad the manual cast is needed
06:29	LauJensen	sure sure :)
06:30	janjan	hmm, strange thing, that jvm. This works
06:30	janjan	,(int-array (into-array [1 2 3]))
06:30	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@137aefa>
06:30	janjan	and this requires a manual cast
06:30	janjan	,(short-array (into-array [1 2 3]))
06:30	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Short
06:31	LauJensen	Not strange since Clojure seems to coerce numbers to Integers, so anything taking an Int will work, anything else will need a hint or cast
06:31	janjan	I say short-array already says I want a cast to shorts, just like (short 1)
06:33	LauJensen	So you're wondering why reflection doesnt take care of this for you ?
06:37	janjan	sort of
06:37	janjan	(short 1) casts the number to a short
06:37	janjan	so why shouldn't (short-array [1 2 3]) do the same?
06:38	janjan	It's not like the vm has to protect the programmer from unwanted truncation in this case, he's explicitly asking for truncation
06:39	LauJensen	Well you see, the thing is... I dont know
06:40	LauJensen	I would expect it to cast automatically as well
06:40	janjan	guess I (or someone) should file a bug report + patch :)
06:40	janjan	but not until after my class's deadline has passed
07:00	LauJensen	Is there really no group/group-by fn in core?
07:01	LauJensen	~source group-by
07:07	Mec_	Is there any sort of function similar to slurp for web urls?
07:07	LauJensen	yes, slurp*
07:07	Mec_	Is that in contrib?
07:08	LauJensen	yes sir, along side all the other I/O tricks in duck-streams I believe
07:08	LauJensen	~source slurp*
07:09	Mec_	Excellent, thanks
07:10	LauJensen	np
07:13	lypanov	man i luuuuurve joy of clojure
07:14	Mec_	what's the proper way to import contrib? its all very confusing
07:17	LauJensen	(use 'clojure.contrib.duck-streams)
07:17	LauJensen	Is one way - add :only slurp*) if thats all you want to import
07:18	Mec_	ah i was trying duck_streams
07:18	LauJensen	Yes the - vs _ is one of the more annoying facets of the JVM
07:21	jcromartie	clojure makes me happy
07:23	LauJensen	Thats nice :)
07:25	jcromartie	just sayinh
07:25	jcromartie	also it's early and I am likely to ramble
07:25	jcromartie	I might be sleep-typing
07:26	LauJensen	Clojure ought to enforce a strict sleep schedule
07:26	LauJensen	Gotta jet
07:27	Mec_	Are there any other IDEs for clojure? emacs is all sorts of painful on windows and netbeans is a bigger install than windows :x
07:27	jcromartie	hah hah, very true...
07:28	jcromartie	I really just use Emacs and a terminal on OS X. What distribution are you using to run it on Windows?
07:28	jcromartie	Aquamacs, with increasing frequency.
07:28	Mec_	whatever is with clojurebox
07:28	jcromartie	hmm
07:28	Mec_	but it doesnt work right
07:28	jcromartie	what is giving you trouble?
07:30	Mec_	I suppose mostly I just need to redo some keybindings and I'm just putting it off. also meta-. sends me to the middle of a java file instead of source
07:38	jcromartie	huh
07:38	jcromartie	so are there any guidelines on when to use (:foo x) and when to use (x :foo) ?
07:39	jcromartie	I think it's likely to be a source of confusion for others reading my code if I use both.
07:44	Mec_	Is there a slurp for binary data? just to output straight to a file, I dont need to do anything to it
07:46	esj	lau: is the clojureql on clojars your clojureql ?
07:50	Mec_	(doc slurp*)
07:50	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.duck-streams/slurp*;[[f]]; Like clojure.core/slurp but opens f with reader."
07:50	Mec_	wups
07:57	AWizzArd	Which type hint is preferrable? APersistentMap vs IPersistentMap
07:58	rhickey	AWizzArd: always Ixxx vs Axxx, i.e. the interface
07:58	AWizzArd	ok good, thanks
07:58	rhickey	Axxxs are implementation details
08:02	AWizzArd	Can deftypes have a documentation string?
08:07	ohpauleez	AWizzArd: I believe so
08:08	jcromartie	,(doc deftype)
08:08	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.types/deftype;[[type-tag constructor-name docstring? attr-map?] [type-tag constructor-name docstring? attr-map? constructor] [type-tag constructor-name docstring? attr-map? constructor deconstructor]]; Define a data type by a type tag (a namespace-qualified keyword) and a symbol naming the constructor function. Optionally, a constructor and a deconstructor function can be given as well, the defaults being
08:08	jcromartie	yup
08:08	jcromartie	when in doubt, doc
08:15	AWizzArd	yes, I just have an older version, and my docstring doesn't contain "docstring"
08:16	AWizzArd	Is Master now pretty much the most up-to-date branch?
08:20	ohpauleez	AWizzArd: I believe so, my master is showing a 1.2 snapshot
08:20	ohpauleez	and is "newer" than new according to the version string
08:22	cemerick	the 'new' branch is defunct, last I knew
08:27	ohpauleez	that's what i figured, thank you for the confirmation cemerick
08:34	noidi	I remember seeing a way of creating wrapper-fn:s for methods...
08:45	chouser	noidi: you may be thinking of memfn, but it doesn't really buy you anything over #(.foo %1 %2)
08:46	rhickey	we should deprecate memfn
08:47	chouser	I noticed clojure.lang.Stream is still there
08:48	noidi	chouser, yeah, and in this case I wanted to pass arguments from a seq to a constructor, so it wouldn't have helped me anyway
08:50	noidi	and (apply #(Vector3f. %1 %2 %3) vecseq) isn't that bad
08:51	rhickey	https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/247-Remove-clojure-lang-Stream-Streamable-and-all-uses
08:54	chouser	It's a shame we haven't thought of a way to let the compiler do that for us that still allows for hinting if needed.
08:54	chouser	Hmmm.. maybe ^{tags: int nil String} Vector3f.
08:54	chouser	er
08:55	chouser	^{:tags int nil String} Vector3f.
08:55	chouser	^[int nil String] Vector3f.
08:56	rhickey	that's interesting
08:56	rhickey	I wonder if sometimes people wouldn't want overloading to work, i.e. when mapping over heterogeneous types
08:57	rhickey	vs nailing it down with a hint
08:57	rhickey	no class name?
08:58	chouser	sure, just like regular unhinted dynamic calls now, right?
08:58	dabd	How should I name the following function http://paste.lisp.org/+20AC? 'match' or 'match?' If x is a collection it returns a string or nil, but if x is a string it returns a value. What are the Clojure conventions?
08:58	dabd
08:58	chouser	rare but occasionally useful.
08:58	dabd	sorry I meant to say when x is a string returns a boolean value
08:58	rhickey	MyClass/itsMethod
08:59	chouser	dabd: usually a ? means only true or false (or maybe nil) is ever returned.
08:59	AWizzArd	jcromartie: the (doc deftype) you did showed the doc for _contribs_ deftype, not for clojure.core/deftype
08:59	jcromartie	oh, foo
08:59	jcromartie	what the heck?
09:00	chouser	rhickey: I don't understand. You're not suggesting MyClass/itsMethod sometimes refer to an instance method, are you?
09:00	dabd	chouser: thx
09:00	AWizzArd	When I do (doc deftype) in 1.2 it still does not mention how a docstring can be added.
09:00	rhickey	(map aMethod ...) requires finding the method in all visible classes. We don't trudge around through classes like that up to this point
09:01	rhickey	AClass/aMethod tells us it's a class member
09:01	rhickey	lookup will tell us it's a method
09:01	rhickey	not inconflict with AClass/aStatic, just using a class as a namespace, as Java does
09:02	chouser	you don't want (map .aMethod ...) to just generate a fn like (fn ([] (.aMethod)) ([a1] (.aMethod a1)) ([a1 a2] (.aMethod a1 a2)) ...) ?
09:02	chouser	then no trudging
09:02	rhickey	only conflict is Java allows overloading of fields/methods/instance/static
09:03	rhickey	chouser: that fn would use reflection, no?
09:03	rhickey	no known target type
09:03	chouser	yeah, maybe not ambigious to anything that knows the class well, but more ambiguous that Foo/bar is today for human readers
09:04	chouser	yes, reflection, unless they hint with ^[Foo], then you get (fn ... [^Foo a1, a2, a3] (.aMethod a1 a2 a3))
09:05	rhickey	chouser: then people will always be supplying at least the first hint (hints target)
09:05	rhickey	and confucing I think to have vector of target and arg type hints combined
09:06	chouser	the target and args themselves are combined already
09:06	rhickey	(map String/toUpper ["a" "b" "c"]) (map #^[String] .toUpper ["a" "b" "c"])
09:06	rhickey	chouser: not combined in the signature of the method, nor the docs
09:07	chouser	Hm.
09:07	chouser	String/.toUpper ?
09:07	chouser	heh
09:08	rhickey	I much prefer class as namespace, just need rules for (public) static trumps field trump method
09:08	chouser	ok
09:10	chouser	I guess Foo/mem without parens today can only mean a static field, which is not so likely to be confused with an instance member usage.
09:11	chouser	you're ok with #^[A B C] for hinting args? No way to hint the return value, but that shouldn't be needed if the args are fully hinted.
09:12	chouser	hm, and rarely useful in a HOF context anyway
09:12	rhickey	thinking about it, people would expect the same hint to work on .method calls, no?
09:13	chouser	#^[BigInteger] (.max #^BigInteger a b) ? goofy
09:13	chouser	#^[BigInteger] (BigInteger/max a b) ?
09:13	rhickey	what does that mean?
09:14	chouser	today you'd say (.max #^BigInteger a #^BigInteger b)
09:16	rhickey	(.BigInteger/max a b)
09:16	rhickey	BigInteger/max is not overloaded
09:21	chouser	hm! .BigInteger/max isn't bad
09:22	chouser	could use that for the un-paren as well. (map .BigInteger/max aseq bseq)
09:22	rhickey	yes
09:23	rhickey	and Classname. for ctor
09:23	AWizzArd	rhickey: is it possible to attach a docstring to deftypes, so that for example (deftype foo [a b c]), (doc foo) ==> prints the doc string
09:23	chouser	ah, right -- no target to hint there
09:24	rhickey	(map #^[String] BigInteger. ["1" "2"])
09:25	chouser	perfect
09:25	cemerick	maybe I don't have the backstory, but how is that better than (map #(BigInteger. #^String %) ["1" "2"]) ?
09:25	chouser	just less ugly
09:26	chouser	and means that the common case looks like:
09:26	chouser	(map BigInteger. ["1" "2"])
09:26	rhickey	that's reflective
09:26	rhickey	since single arg ctor is overloaded
09:27	chouser	instead of (map #(BigInteger. %) ["1" "2"])
09:27	chouser	right
09:27	rhickey	I'm more interested in getting rid of reflection than more sugar
09:28	chouser	I go with whatever it takes to sell it to you. :-)
09:28	rhickey	well, in this case it's a demerit, as yet another way to easily write something slow
09:29	cemerick	lifting something like BigInteger. to a fn when it's not in function position is a little creepy on first blush
09:29	chouser	no slower than (map #(BigInteger. %) ["1" "2"])
09:29	rhickey	cemerick: people definitely have that expectation, esp for instance methods, and rightly so
09:29	chouser	and just as natural to add a hint to the slow version
09:29	cemerick	really?
09:30	chouser	cemerick: yep, it comes up pretty often here
09:30	cemerick	e.g. (map .toString [1 2 3])?
09:30	rhickey	chouser: right, but another way, and one that remove the onus of thinking about the args
09:30	rhickey	absolutely
09:30	chouser	cemerick: exactly
09:30	AWizzArd	Will there be a way to describe complex types, such as "this is a vector of strings"?
09:30	rhickey	AWizzArd: no
09:32	cemerick	so (still getting my bearings) #^[String List] hints the args to the fn wrapping a named ctor or method following it?
09:32	stuartsierra	AWizzArd: you can add :doc metadata to the Var holding the type.
09:32	stuartsierra	e.g. (deftype #^{:doc "My type"} MyType [a b c])
09:33	chouser	cemerick: that's the suggestion
09:33	dabd	I'm writing a mixed Java/Clojure application and I need to define some constants to be used on both sides. Would you rather define them as static string fields in a, say, Constants Java class or in a properties file?
09:34	chouser	cemerick: the goal (for me) being a mechanism that allows you to start with something that allows HOF use of a method, and yet has a way to "tack on" hints as needed
09:34	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: ok
09:36	stuartsierra	dabd: Won't make too much difference. Depends on whether you care about recompiling the .java file when the constants change.
09:37	rhickey	I guess this could just participate in warn-on-reflection
09:37	chouser	oh, I would hope so.
09:41	chouser	yeah. postpone this.
09:41	chouser	what do we need -- volatile?
09:41	cemerick	chouser: but methods aren't functions, and I think it muddies the waters for them to so transparently be interchangeable
09:41	rhickey	so, how about deftype and protocol-based compiler!
09:42	chouser	oh, right -- compiler doesn't need volatile
09:42	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I figured that would be your #1 priority
09:42	rhickey	would be excellent a la carte project to test detype/protocols.
09:42	chouser	I started poking at a tool to convert Compiler$FooExpr trees to maps of vectors
09:43	AWizzArd	yes, that would be an energetic project
09:43	chouser	just a couple days ago. There's a bit more to do there, but that would help provide a basis for regression tests of a new compiler
09:44	dabd	stuartsierra: I will use Java code since I have the flexibility to define more complex constants (Arrays, etc) if I need to.
09:46	rhickey	at least we now have the (newnew) compiler we need to port
09:46	stuartsierra	rhickey: I thought newnew became reify
09:47	rhickey	stuartsierra: yes, just using the codename
09:47	chouser	rhickey: you'd want deftypes instead of plain maps for Expr objects?
09:47	rhickey	chouser: yes, and protocols for the interfaces
09:48	rhickey	deftypes mostly for the easy of inline protocol definition
09:48	chouser	hm. ok.
09:48	rhickey	why hm?
09:49	chouser	You want 'emit' inlined in the deftypes? I guess I was hoping for some lexical separation there.
09:49	rhickey	chouser: needn't be, but without deftype you have no choice
09:50	chouser	but I guess as long as I can extend my own emitJS or whatever, I don't need JVM bytecode to be lexically separated.
09:50	chouser	well, I had multimethods. But yes, I'm not arguing against deftype at all.
09:50	rhickey	a critical thing about deftype is you can't write code that depends on the type any more than it would on a map
09:51	rhickey	I anticipate emit will be split out. A big goal here is an intermediate AST coming out of analysis
09:51	chouser	right! users use the same syntax that 'extend' can hook.
09:52	rhickey	a deftype only defines fields/attributes, everything else is in the protocols
09:52	chouser	right, so I thought a conversion tool might help define that intermediate AST and allow porting of analysis and emit to happen independently, while being able to check for regression against the current version.
09:53	rhickey	It was a big part of deftype design that code consuming deftypes be no more rigid than that consuming maps
09:53	chouser	I guess I keep mentioning it because I'm hoping that if you think it's a waste of time you'll tell me.
09:53	rhickey	chouser: that may not be possible, to the extend we want to improve things in the new design
09:54	rhickey	e.g. no dynamic vars
09:54	rhickey	more host independence
09:55	chouser	well, this tool would run after the current analysis is complete, so could capture in persistent structs (deftype, whatever) the final value of dynamic vars.
09:55	chouser	I guess it does assume though that first pass of the ports don't actually change the semantics at all.
09:56	rhickey	yeah, and whe it does, then what? like regression tests that need to change when the behavior spec changes
09:56	rhickey	lemme start a wiki page for brainstorming on the compiler
09:57	chouser	if first pass changes semantics, then yes this tool would be of limited usefulness, esp if the new analysis is producing data that can't be computed from values produced by the old analysis.
10:01	rhickey	aarg I wish the assembla wiki did tab/shift-tab indent/outdent on lists
10:01	chouser	what web browser do you use?
10:02	chouser	eh, nm
10:02	rhickey	safari, but this embedded in Fluid, so opera engine I think
10:03	cemerick	assembla has a variety of UI issues, IMO
10:03	rhickey	seriously this is the number one thing I need - a decent web outliner
10:04	chouser	I use itsalltext plugin for firefox so I can edit web forms in my favorite text editor, but it doesn't work on rich-text fields like this
10:04	cemerick	rhickey: if you're willing to step outside assembla for wikis, I'm sure the atlassian guys would be happy to host a confluence instance for you.
10:05	cemerick	Their wiki editor is stellar.
10:05	rhickey	cemerick: I'm not sure confluence wiki is better
10:05	rhickey	cemerick: I disagree
10:05	cemerick	rhickey: compared to assemblas?
10:05	cemerick	it's the best I've ever used shrug
10:05	rhickey	I've used it and had many list problems
10:06	rhickey	wikispaces is excellent
10:06	rhickey	google docs does this aspect better
10:06	cemerick	v3.0 came with a brand-new wiki editor, perhaps you eval'ed 2.x
10:06	rhickey	cemerick: when was v3?
10:06	cemerick	I want to say September-ish?
10:07	rhickey	yes, definitely was before that
10:07	fogus	That sounds right
10:07	cemerick	Looks like June, 2009
10:08	rhickey	well, if someone wants to research it...
10:08	cemerick	it's quite remarkable -- drag and drop of images into the editor, great fullscreen mode, nice table editing
10:09	stuartsierra	That's all we need, a 6th web site.
10:09	cemerick	rhickey: what, getting a instance set up, or a comparison of it to X?
10:09	rhickey	stuartsierra: 6th?
10:09	rhickey	I'd be totally happy if one free provider handled everything we need. I just don't see it
10:09	AWizzArd	Only some days ago I discovered Project Kenai. This is something like github, BitBucket or Google code. It offers Mercurial, git and subversion repositories, a wiki, issue tracking (BugZilla or even Jira!), a forum, and so on. It's a Sun Microsystems website. http://www.kenai.com/
10:09	stuartsierra	1) clojure.org, 2) g. groups, 3) github, 4) google code, 5) assembla
10:10	cemerick	well, 4 is defunct
10:10	stuartsierra	No, 4 is the only place to download pre-packaged binaries.
10:10	rhickey	stuartsierra: I guess the idea would be atlassian would replace assembla
10:10	AWizzArd	Atlassian works together with Kenai, by offering Jira.
10:10	rhickey	if github counted downloads I'd move them from google code to there
10:11	cemerick	rhickey: I have no idea what their github integration is like, FYI
10:11	rhickey	kenai always seems terribly slow when I looked at it
10:11	cemerick	I was only proposing them for confluence
10:11	AWizzArd	Kenai still is not very fast, true.
10:12	cemerick	kenai makes me sad every time I go there. Reminds me of sourceforge.
10:12	rhickey	yes
10:12	AWizzArd	Design is not the best, and there are faster sites, but it is more complete than anything else, and Jira alone makes it more interesting than the competition.
10:12	stuartsierra	What none of these services allow you to do is "frame" their services under your own domain.
10:13	AWizzArd	yes, not so nice.. only googles Blogger can do that
10:13	stuartsierra	Really, all things Clojure should be under clojure.org.
10:13	AWizzArd	yes, that would be best
10:13	stuartsierra	But the only way to do that now is to host everything yourself. I've been there, it's a burden.
10:13	AWizzArd	jira.clojure.org, blog.c.o, code.c.o, and so on
10:14	stuartsierra	Even hosting a public git repository is surprisingly hard, and it can't match github for end-user convenience.
10:14	rhickey	stuartsierra: what difference does "under" make? links that go to other domains don't matter much, do they?
10:14	AWizzArd	would be one+ week of work to get everything up
10:14	stuartsierra	rhickey: Yes, I think they do. It's a matter of branding.
10:14	rhickey	I guess unified menu
10:15	stuartsierra	And entry-points.
10:15	stuartsierra	If someone lands on the Google Code page, they think that's the "official" project page. Same for github or assembla.
10:15	stuartsierra	You can explain it to people over and over, but they'll still get it wrong.
10:15	stuartsierra	Heck, I can barely remember it.
10:15	AWizzArd	The blog could stay at google and just be available under blog.clojure.org
10:15	rhickey	well, github and assembla are providing a lot
10:16	rhickey	gc not so much
10:16	stuartsierra	Yes, they are. So it's hard to move away from them.
10:16	rhickey	ggroups, a ton
10:16	AWizzArd	Jira is free for open source, and many other Atlassian products as well
10:16	fogus	Atlassian has hosting services that could host most of the services under a common clojure.org hostname. Cost might be an issue
10:16	rhickey	AWizzArd: self-hosting is a huge deal
10:17	AWizzArd	yes, I know.. I am in the process of starting my Clojure DB project and go through exactly those issues right now
10:17	stuartsierra	I just wish the services offered a *.yourdomain.com hosting option.
10:17	rhickey	also, the github phenomenon shows it's not just the tool, but the sense of place
10:17	chouser	ggroups scares me. spam is managable right now, but it sounds like all spammers would have to do is try and they could crush us.
10:17	stuartsierra	Right, having a presence on github is important. Less so for Google Code, but still valuable.
10:17	rhickey	chouser: I;ve seen indications google is now trying to preemptively filter spam for ggroups rather than relying only on moderators
10:18	AWizzArd	github and bitbucket can always have the most recent versions of the code available
10:18	chouser	oh good. Maybe they'll fix it before the clever spammers decide to target us
10:18	AWizzArd	but it would be nicer if clojure.org would be the host of everything clojure related
10:19	stuartsierra	I don't think there's a better solution right now. I just wish there were.
10:20	rhickey	I don't see any solution being less than 3 parts - ggroups/github/assembla or their counterparts. Wikispaces could be folded in if one of them had a decent wiki and we could park domain.
10:20	AWizzArd	although.. does github allow to set your own cname?
10:21	cemerick	rhickey: I just shot an email off to atlassian. We'll see what they come up with.
10:21	liebke	AWizzArd: yes
10:21	rhickey	oh, and now build.clojure.org too
10:22	rhickey	hudson hosting a whole other can of worms
10:22	stuartsierra	yes
10:22	cemerick	rhickey: In the meantime, if you're so inclined, you can run a trial instance and see how it works for you: http://www.atlassian.com/studio/
10:22	AWizzArd	Well, those Atlassian products are really damn good
10:22	stuartsierra	Found the old Sourceforge page, still points to Google Code as "current development"
10:23	cemerick	that really should just get folded
10:26	AWizzArd	:-)
10:27	AWizzArd	If we would setup everything ourselves then Jira, Confluence and other Apps would be free. Code could stay at github and just set the cname to something like code.clojure.org.
10:27	stuartsierra	AWizzArd: That's a lot of work.
10:29	cemerick	hosting a full stack like that would likely require a dedicated corporate sponsor, something beyond just a contribution of funds.
10:30	AWizzArd	50 Euro per month for a dedicated Core i7 quad core system with 8gb ram and 2x750 gb HD (raid 1)
10:30	AWizzArd	goes with 100 mbit online
10:31	cemerick	the hardware is nothing. Who's going to manage it?
10:31	jkdufair	dreamhost.com has free hosting for non-profits, fwiw
10:31	cemerick	ugh
10:32	AWizzArd	I don't know if there will be so very much managing needed.
10:32	jkdufair	crappy?
10:33	cemerick	jkdufair: yes, but that's not the point -- until someone is willing/able to commit to being the clojure IT admin, this is all moot.
10:33	AWizzArd	With the repository still sitting at github+cname and the blog sitting at blogger+cname and probably the same for emails too it won't be soo much.
10:36	AWizzArd	if git, the blog and email won't be required, then I think jira and confluence could be installed and fine tuned within 3 days
10:37	chouser	installation is only the beginning of the pain.
10:38	chouser	every time they find a security bug in some piece of included PHP, you must upgrade immediately
10:38	AWizzArd	which part would be running with php?
10:38	cemerick	chouser: actually, the nice thing about the atlassian stack is it's java, so the security issues are functionally nil.
10:38	AWizzArd	right
10:39	chouser	hm, so you're saying there are better web app products out there than wordpress?
10:39	AWizzArd	Confluence is not so bad
10:39	cemerick	but that's besides the point -- self-hosting isn't really an option without a dedicated corporate "parent"
10:39	cemerick	chouser: well done, sir ;-)
10:40	chouser	heh
10:41	cemerick	I got owned so many times while running WP, I lost count.
10:41	chouser	didn't know any better.
10:41	chouser	what I really want to do is spend my time writing a good blogging platform.
10:42	cemerick	chouser: I moved my blog over to confluence last fall. I've got, like, 20 extra hours a week now.
10:42	chouser	sorry, too much sarcasm. will try to stop talking now.
10:42	AWizzArd	chouser: you can use Google Blogger and set the cname to your own domain.
10:43	AWizzArd	And well, if you have your own machine you can get Confluence for free: http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/
10:43	AWizzArd	free for open source projects
10:43	cemerick	or $10 for < 10 users, IIRC
10:45	AWizzArd	cemerick: this is for commercial use
10:45	cemerick	yup
10:45	cemerick	it's the setup we have
10:45	AWizzArd	same here :-)
10:45	chouser	I'm not sure if I'm an open source project or not.
10:45	chouser	seems a bit unlikely, really.
10:46	AWizzArd	chouser: visit http://www.blogger.com/signup.g and setup your cname and have your professional blog under blog.example.com
10:46	chouser	we used blogger before. We didn't like it, though I don't remember why.
10:48	AWizzArd	Anyway, when github supports cname entries then it seems trivial to get http://git.clojure.org/ ready.
10:50	AWizzArd	and when we get a server then jira.clojure.org can be done within one day + a few days fine tuning, same for wiki.clojure.org
10:50	AWizzArd	And this does not seem to require very much administration
10:50	fogus	If atlassian turns out to be useable, then confluence does have a news feature that can be used for blogging
10:52	AWizzArd	the blog can go to http://blog.clojure.org/ today if rhickey sets this up in his domain account
10:52	AWizzArd	And people who visit http://clojure.blogspot.com/ will automatically be forwarded to blog.clojure.org
10:55	cemerick	fogus: that's what I use for my blog
10:56	cemerick	the biggest issue with JIRA studio will be the git/github integration -- that is, it doesn't exist (yet)
10:56	AWizzArd	Can you please say more about this?
10:57	cemerick	fisheye and crucible got git support about a month ago, and I'm sure studio/github integration is in the works
10:57	fogus	cemerick:Yeah, we use it on my project too. It's not fully-featured like most blog platforms, but it's good enough for the types of posts coming out of clojure.blogspot
10:57	cemerick	my biggest issue with confluence is the handling of drafts, but that's a minor issue overall
10:57	AWizzArd	Though blogspot is not bad. And Rich could move it today to clojure.org if he wishes.
10:58	defn	cool - autodoc has come to fruition
10:59	lypanov	fogus: fogus from joy of?
10:59	fogus	lypanov: One and the same.
11:00	lypanov	fogus: man, the book rocks.
11:00	defn	fogus -- your website is awesome
11:03	defn	the console mode is really cool
11:03	fogus	lypanov: Thanks! Although it would rock very much less-so without chouser
11:04	fogus	defn: That is a funny little thing. The code is available on the githubs if you want it. :-)
11:04	lypanov	fogus: already told chouser it rocked :D
11:05	lypanov	still had to tell you though
11:05	defn	fogus: i would enjoy that very much :)
11:07	fogus	defn: It runs only on Wordpress though
11:07	defn	fogus: cli2 is it?
11:07	fogus	yes
11:07	chouser	huh, never tried blog.fogus.me in console mode ...doesn't seem to do anything here.
11:07	defn	fogus: shrug -- i think it's cool as hell
11:08	chouser	ah! hehe
11:08	fogus	chouser: It's horribly out of date, so browser compatibility is sketchy
11:08	defn	chouser: it even makes you hit [space] for MORE in long listings
11:09	defn	although im hung on ls /dev right now
11:09	defn	I tried C-c already, heh
11:09	fogus	defn: which is why it's not my main mode. :-( There are .... some issues
11:11	defn	fogus: any word on when the next few chapters go up on MEAP?
11:12	LauJensen	fogus - Never seen that console page before, but I entered 'ls' and its been hanging ever since
11:13	defn	LauJensen: heh, same thing happened to me
11:15	jkdufair	wow. console mode is badass. written in clojure?
11:15	jkdufair	help
11:15	chouser	heh
11:15	jkdufair	help
11:16	fogus	:-( Oh well, it used to work properly. I should disable that link until I can get things fixed.
11:16	jkdufair	oh weird focus thing
11:16	jkdufair	sory
11:16	fogus	Nah not written in Clojure. Javascript mostly
11:16	defn	fogus: i think it's great regardless, it's worth leaving it up
11:16	defn	no one seemed to notice it but me anyway :)
11:17	defn	i think i personally broke your console mode
11:17	defn	i hit ls, ls, read the output, typed ls /dev, hung, then i type ls again, and it hangs again
11:18	fogus	defn: You can get back to the regular mode with startx
11:18	defn	lol yes, i figured that out earlier, i thought that was great
11:18	defn	also enjoyed `hello`'s output
11:23	angerman	Note: When using postgresql and big tables, do _not_ randomly query the tables, try to organize your querys by table.
11:25	angerman	painful lessen
11:32	jasapp_	angerman: why?
11:33	angerman	jasapp_: querying two different tables in a random fashon will result in lots of random IO.
11:34	angerman	as the big tables are usually accompanied with larger indices, the indices cache seems to be cleared to make room for the index on the other table.
11:35	angerman	and if your having slow random IO (a SSD might help here a little) it's painful.
11:35	cemerick	angerman: surely that's a configuration/deployment issue
11:35	angerman	cemerick: sure it is, i never pretended it wasn't.
11:36	cemerick	angerman: ok, just checking :-)
11:36	cemerick	I know ø about postgres
11:36	angerman	cemerick: but there are natural contrains, which for me is right now my macbook
11:36	defn	polyglot can mean someone who knows more than one language, or programs which are valid in more than one language
11:36	defn	interesting
11:37	defn	i also didn't know 'pidgin' was a real word.
11:38	angerman	defn: what's your native language_
11:38	angerman	pidgin used to be a word my english teacher used to tease us with.
11:38	defn	angerman: my native lang. is English. Am I writing that poorly? lol
11:39	angerman	defn: (blush) erm, no, was just checking givin' the pidgin line.
11:39	defn	Ah I see
11:52	lypanov	pidgins are teh best.
11:53	lypanov	angerman: not all people are language geeks :P
11:54	defn	i consider myself something of a language geek, but never had seen pidgin outside of the IM client
11:54	lypanov	hehe
11:54	lypanov	nat lang con lang or prog lang?
11:54	chouser	we are talking about the bird, right?
11:55	lypanov	chouser: no.
11:55	defn	nat/prog
11:55	defn	ive been studying a little chinese (mandarin)
11:55	defn	clojure for breakfast, java for dinner (for interop purposes only ;)
11:56	chouser	oh, like Pidgin English.
11:56	lypanov	aka, english.
11:56	lypanov	:))
11:56	chouser	I hadn't picked up on the difference in spelling
11:56	defn	there are a few different takes on pidgin
11:57	chouser	I heard some Pidgin English as a kid and hadn't thought to look into spelling differences of the word.
11:57	defn	what is pidgin english?
11:57	chouser	yay I learned something today.
11:57	defn	like a simplified english?
11:57	defn	A pidgin is a simplified language. Pidgins usually develop because two groups of people need to talk to each other but do not speak the same language.[1][2] Pidgins are not usually as complicated as many other languages.[3]
11:57	fogus	i thought we were talking about the chat client. :-(
11:58	defn	fogus: you started this whole mess
11:58	defn	i looked up polyglot and then got to pidgin
11:58	defn	due to your repo name
11:58	lypanov	(and its all LauJensen's fault)
11:58	chouser	lypanov: ha
11:58	lypanov	well, and mr hickey for being smart and stuff.
11:58	cemerick	I can never remember that keys in an :or map are bare symbols.
11:59	defn	I can't quit seeing splats as globals
11:59	defn	that's not the correct terminology is it?
12:00	lypanov	deconblabla
12:00	chouser	they're as global as anything gets in clojure
12:00	chouser	I like earmuffs
12:00	defn	oh right
12:00	defn	what about (def OMG 4)
12:00	defn	is that equiv to ,earmuffs,
12:01	chouser	earmuffs usually indicate you're expected to using 'binding' on it
12:02	defn	so they behave differently, or is it just idiomatic?
12:02	chouser	just a naming convention
12:02	defn	ah ok
12:03	defn	chouser: any word on Ch.5->* for JoC?
12:04	chouser	defn: the next chapter is written but has a lot of editing in its future before it hits MEAP.
12:05	chouser	chapters 1-4 are getting shrunk to 3 chapters and may contain some new material, but that needs editing before MEAP too.
12:07	defn	chouser: want help editing? ;)
12:07	cemerick	I'll bet there's an interesting backstory as to why manning has two clojure books in process.
12:08	defn	the first one has a lot of negative comments
12:09	chouser	defn: thanks but Manning has someone they trust for that. :-)
12:09	technomancy	defn: it struck me as pretty sloppy at points. maybe just needs a good scrubbing by a knowledgeable technical editor
12:10	defn	technomancy: i hadnt heard about it until I saw JoC on ycombinator
12:10	fogus	cemerick: You're likely correct
12:10	defn	I read the reviews and the first chapter and wasn't impressed, but you might be right
12:10	cemerick	fogus: says one of the few people who probably knows ;-)
12:11	fogus	cemerick: If you're ever in the DC area I'll buy you a drink and tell you the story... ok, maybe a few drinks
12:11	defn	ok gents -- off I go. have fn.
12:13	ohpauleez	has there been any talk to do some sort of Clojure conference this year
12:13	ohpauleez	however small or independent it may be
12:13	technomancy	yeah, only we'd call it a conj instead of a conf
12:13	ohpauleez	haha
12:13	ohpauleez	zing
12:13	Ash	my other car is a cdr
12:14	ohpauleez	awesome
12:14	rhickey	https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Clojure_Compiler_in_Clojure
12:14	technomancy	seriously though, after ICFP we might try to put something together
12:15	ohpauleez	that sounds good to me, I'd be down for helping out or trying to solicit some funds for it
12:18	AWizzArd	rhickey: thanks for setting this up, it seems like interesting times are coming, again
12:18	ohpauleez	I'm totally pumped for cinc
12:20	chouser	me too!
12:20	chouser	perhaps irrationally so, but there it is.
12:20	dabd	I have some multimethods that update a map passed to them via an atom. Is there a functional way to do this? I was looking at the accumulators from clojure-conntrib but I don't understand if they can be used for this purpose.
12:21	chouser	dabd: can they not return an updated map?
12:21	rhickey	chouser: I don't want to call this cinc, as that is a more ambitious idea (replacing Java). This is a first step, replacing the compiler with one written in Clojure
12:22	LauJensen	lypanov: Please send me an email once you have a good grasp of Arch and are comfortable in your new shiny IDE, then I'll remove you from the /ignore list :D
12:22	rhickey	full cinc requires a lot of thinking about bootstrapping that I have not yet done
12:22	chouser	sure. still exciting to me. still not entirely sure why. :-)
12:22	rhickey	it is exciting, this alone will ease other targets, get more people involved in things that require compiler enhancements, broadedn the understanding of the compiler, enable tools etc
12:23	technomancy	it will get us out of this "nobody wants to work on a compiler that's going away" slump too, which is important.
12:23	LauJensen	rhickey: How is this connected with compiler speeds/optimizations?
12:23	rhickey	LauJensen: who said it was?
12:24	AWizzArd	When it is written in Clojure, will it be called Compilejure then? ;)
12:24	LauJensen	Nobody - But I have some hopes that the compiler will be speedier in the future, so Im just curious
12:25	Chousuke	LauJensen: probably through what technomancy said
12:26	ohpauleez	If people feel compelled, I'm sure they could take pieces of the work done in PyPy and attempt to move it cinc. The goals and architectures are different, but some ideas translate
12:27	rhickey	technomancy: was that really happening? I thought it was more of - nobody wants to write Java/nobody understands Rich's Java :)
12:28	technomancy	rhickey: maybe I've been using it as an excuse to cover up the fact that I'm not man enough to dive in and get my hands dirty. =)
12:28	LauJensen	rhickey: any approximation of how many hours you put into it?
12:29	AWizzArd	rhickey: true, and your experience will be extremly important for that transition. But it's the destiny of most software to undergo an evolution.
12:30	rhickey	AWizzArd: I have no problem with that
12:35	fogus	At the first DC clojure group there were many who were adamantly against cinc I was not able to pull the precise reasons out of them.
12:36	hiredman	huh
12:36	dabd	chouser: the caller of the multimethods needs to resulting updated map
12:36	fogus	... besides "fragmentation" "big mistake"
12:36	ohpauleez	fogus: I'd like to hear them, I can't think of any
12:36	hiredman	fragmentation?
12:36	hiredman	like cinc as a fork?
12:36	rhickey	fogus: as if cinc was just about different target hosts?
12:38	fogus	rhickey: Granted, it was only a few who voiced those views, but yes, I gathered that they felt it was limited to targeting hosts
12:38	fogus	And I did a poor job of convincing them otherwise I suppose
12:40	dabd	chouser: http://paste.lisp.org/+20AN I'm passing not the atom explicitly but a closure that updates the map 'vals-fn'. Is there a better way to do this?
12:40	fogus	hiredman: yes. forking
12:43	rhickey	In many ways, the idea of cinc alone has already accomplished the biggest result possible. By working through the question "what facilities did I need to write Clojure, and to support its abstractions, and are they present in Clojure itself?", we are adding those features, and all future Clojure programs will benefit.
12:45	fogus	rhickey: The consensus among the detractors tended toward a view that introp and multiple platforms are XOR
12:45	rhickey	there are many steps short of fully bootstrapped cinc that are interesting and useful - the compiler written in Clojure itself, moving the abstractions to protocols, new data structures written in Clojure
12:45	rhickey	fogus: that is absolutely true, and as designed
12:46	rhickey	people presume that targeting multiple hosts implies full portability between hosts - that was never true nor an objective
12:46	LauJensen	rhickey: How much do you see going into a bootstrap at present?
12:47	fogus	rhickey: Understood. My only point is that it was viewed as a downside. Try as I might, I was unable to convince them otherwise.
12:47	rhickey	(rather, attempting full portability)
12:47	Chousuke	Once you have all the abstractions that Clojure needs to describe itself, it should become feasible to have a subset of "pure" Clojure that is usable and independent of any host interop, though.
12:48	rhickey	Chousuke: certainly, and a good sized one
12:48	hiredman	fib programs will be cross platform
12:48	hiredman	:P
12:48	rhickey	as a consultant targeting Java and .Net, it is really nice not to have to switch languages, even though you might switch frameworks
12:49	rhickey	just as you might switch frameworks in an all-Java shop
12:49	Chousuke	Exceptions are one thing that are still rather tied to the JVM, but you could use port error-kit to different hosts I guess :P
12:49	Chousuke	-use
12:50	rhickey	Most hosts have exceptions
12:51	Raynes	(())
12:51	rhickey	hiredman: ah, fib
13:06	Raynes	Why is Clojure so awesome?
13:07	the-kenny	Because it's a lisp
13:07	the-kenny	:)
13:08	Raynes	Because rhickey is the creator.
13:08	Raynes	And he isn't a mindless Lisp purist.
13:10	LauJensen	Raynes: I think thats an oxymoron
13:11	Raynes	LauJensen: How would I go about forcefully deleting an unmatched parenthesis in paredit? :>
13:11	LauJensen	C-x q IIRC
13:11	LauJensen	But you might have to ask one of the guys who actually use it
13:11	LauJensen	I found it horribly annoying
13:11	Raynes	LauJensen: I can highlight + backspace to delete it, but that is annoying.
13:12	Raynes	It's C-q you were thinking of, but that doesn't work with deletions it seems.
13:12	Raynes	It's a little annoying at times, but it keeps me safe in the jungle at night.
13:12	the-kenny	Del works for me
13:12	the-kenny	e.g. backwards deleting
13:13	the-kenny	Maybe it's a bug here
13:13	the-kenny	but it's a useful bug
13:13	Raynes	the-kenny: Del completely disregards the parenthesis and goes behind it.
13:13	the-kenny	Raynes: Heh, then it's a bug on my system
13:14	Raynes	the-kenny: I want your bugs. :(
13:15	Chousuke	Raynes: you can use C-q to insert a matching parenthesis
13:15	Chousuke	then delete
13:15	stuartsierra	I use C-SPACE to select, then C-w to delete
13:16	Raynes	The most annoying thing about paredit IMO is the fact that if you need to wrap something in parens, you have to C-LEFT inside of empty parens, and it leaves a space at the beginning so you have to move forward once and then backspace.
13:16	Raynes	:(
13:17	technomancy	Raynes: C-u backspace
13:17	stuartsierra	Raynes: try M-( on the thing you want to wrap
13:17	the-kenny	Yes, M-( wraps things inside parens
13:17	the-kenny	If you want to wrap multiple sexps, put them in a region before M-(
13:18	stuartsierra	the-kenny: ooh, didn't know that trick
13:18	Raynes	I usually just barf, but M-( will get rid of the space problem.
13:18	Raynes	technomancy: Awesome.
13:18	Raynes	technomancy: What does C-u mean?
13:18	technomancy	actually if the region is active you don't need M-(, just ( will do it
13:18	technomancy	Raynes: "prefix arg"
13:19	the-kenny	technomancy: Oh, cool
13:19	technomancy	it's like alternate-fire in a 3D shooter.
13:19	Raynes	Neat.
13:19	stuartsierra	the-kenny: M-( on a region doesn't work for me
13:19	stuartsierra	but C-u 4 M-( wraps the next 4 exprs
13:19	technomancy	nice
13:23	angerman	can I somehow figure out what my java process is doing right now?
13:24	lypanov	oh. LauJensen hates me now sad
13:24	LauJensen	haha, ofc not
13:25	lypanov	actually its probably a good idea for me to disappear anyway till i've finished joy of and the various videos
13:25	AWizzArd	angerman: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Thread.html may have something for you, or http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/System.html
13:25	lypanov	LauJensen: ;) :D
13:26	angerman	AWizzArd: there must be something fishy going on though. jvisualvm just froze
13:26	LauJensen	Not on my account, this is the place to be for questions
13:26	lypanov	LauJensen: tbh. i'd forgotten how much time reading irc can take, so while i know its a joke, i will go poof for a week or two :)
13:26	LauJensen	Alright - Enjoy
13:27	LauJensen	Keep an eye on my blog if you like, I hope I get something up before too long
13:28	angerman	ok, something is _severly_ broken
13:30	angerman	Exception in thread "Attach Listener" java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException ... hmmm I seee
13:40	Raynes	angerman: You can ask it very nicely.
13:40	Raynes	:)
13:40	Raynes	lypanov: Have you bought me a copy of Joy yet? Let me know when you get around to it. ;)
13:41	lypanov	heh.
13:41	lypanov	go grab in action and we can swap every once in a while.
13:41	lypanov	in action in $10 today.
13:41	lypanov	;)
13:43	LauJensen	One thing I don't understand about "Joy of Clojure", is how did Fogus ever let himself get talked into only having Chousers picture on the cover?
13:44	lypanov	LOL
13:44	the-kenny	haha
13:44	technomancy	hopefully when O'Reilly decides to publish a Clojure book it will have a Pirhanamoose on the cover: http://wondermark.com/495/
13:44	the-kenny	We should tell clojurebot who is on the cover of joy of clojure :)
13:45	the-kenny	technomancy: If I remember right, the git book didn't have a octocat on its cover :(
13:46	astoddard	I am trying out clojure-1.1.0-par-SNAPSHOT.jar on java 1.6.0_18 do I need or should I use the jsr166y.jar that Rick Hickey put on github?
13:46	rhickey	astoddard: yes, you will need that
13:49	astoddard	rhickey: Thank you. On what machine spec did pvmap rock? (http://paste.lisp.org/display/84027). I am currently seeing pvmap slower than map on a 4 core machine.
13:52	the-kenny	Anyone who can buy Joy of Clojure (pdf version) for me? I can't use a credit card because I don't own one, and if I want to use Paypal, it forces me to use a credit card too.
13:52	rhickey	astoddard: quad-core mac pro
13:53	technomancy	anyone else getting null pointers when running JMX tests for contrib?
13:54	angerman	What am I doing wrong with the transients? http://gist.github.com/283066
13:54	hiredman	wihtout looking: you are bashing them in place
13:54	hiredman	and I am wrong
13:54	angerman	hiredman: O_O
13:55	technomancy	shame; would have been a great tie-in to my latest blog post
13:55	astoddard	rhickey: Any reason to think pvmap would be slower today than six months ago? Maybe I just don't have the hardware to take advantage of it yet. (On that one benchmark of course).
13:55	hiredman	angerman: maybe you have a partial application or something lazy that isn't realized until it is used on another threa
13:56	ohpauleez	that's sort of what it looks like to me
13:56	ohpauleez	I have run into issues where I was trying to use transients where the recursion and calls were not sitting local
13:56	angerman	hiredman: Hm.
13:56	ohpauleez	and once I isolated down, it worked
13:57	angerman	the items generator is lazy...
13:57	technomancy	angerman: that's quite strange; I can't see any place where multiple threads even begin to come into play.
13:58	angerman	technomancy: me neither.
13:58	ohpauleez	angerman: it may or may not help: http://www.pauldee.org/euler1.clj
13:58	angerman	ok, let's see if it's swank that biting me
13:58	technomancy	angerman: I was going to say, possibly slime threads
13:58	technomancy	try in an rlwrap repl
13:58	ohpauleez	technomancy: is there any real advantage of rlwrap over Jline?
13:59	technomancy	ohpauleez: it provides all of readline
13:59	technomancy	jline only gives you like half of the bindings
13:59	ohpauleez	ahhh gotcha, thanks
13:59	angerman	wow.
13:59	Chousuke	you have some redundant partials there I think
13:59	angerman	ok. was slime
13:59	technomancy	angerman: but it shouldn't be forced at print time since you've got a doall there...
14:00	technomancy	oh, except perhaps the doall is only forcing the outer lazy seq?
14:00	technomancy	not sure
14:00	angerman	hmm 500ms vs. 300ms
14:01	Chousuke	(apply (p merge-with conj head) (items)) is equal to (apply merge-with conj head (items))
14:02	angerman	Chousuke: thanks. I didn't know that
14:02	angerman	should I make the map transient too?
14:04	Chousuke	hmmh
14:04	Chousuke	do you have no way of merging the vectors before you add them to the map final map?
14:05	angerman	Chousuke: they come in as rows from the database.
14:05	angerman	it's like I want to select the columns of the resultset
14:05	rhickey	astoddard: still works here. You should wrap each of those in a (dotimes [_ 10] (time ...)), since one run might encounter a longer GC puase
14:07	angerman	Chousuke: do you see what I mean?
14:07	Chousuke	hmmh
14:07	Chousuke	yeah
14:08	Chousuke	you could make the map transient I guess but that'll complicate the code a fair bit :/
14:10	Chousuke	Or maybe you could just write a merge-with that uses transients internally.
14:10	angerman	~merge-with
14:11	angerman	,~merge-with
14:11	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/unquote is unbound.
14:17	angerman	hmm reduce doesn't work with transients
14:17	mjt0229	Is the correct place for namespace metadata the following: (ns #^{author: me} mynamespace)?
14:18	chouser	angerman: sure it does
14:18	angerman	chouser: hmm. ok. *poke code(
14:19	chouser	,(persistent! (reduce conj! (transient [:a :b]) (range 5)))
14:19	clojurebot	[:a :b 0 1 2 3 4]
14:19	mjt0229	ah, yes, that seems to bet he case.
14:23	stuartsierra	~reader macros
14:25	Chousuke	mjt0229: yes, though it's :author :P
14:25	astoddard	rhichey: you are quite right. It was a oneoff GC or other JVM issue. It works fine for me too with the dotimes.
14:25	astoddard	Thanks for the help.
14:26	mjt0229	Chousuke: Yeah, I found it in the clojure source. I was checking because I noticed that in the clojure eclipse plugin, if you run a file that has metadata in the namespace, it doesn't start the repl in that namespace.
14:34	zakwilson_	I just set up a new machine and I'm having trouble with Clojure on Slime. Function calls typed at the REPL aren't being evaluated.
14:35	jkdufair	zakwilson_: what platform?
14:35	angerman	using transients doesn't seem to be a good idea on this.
14:35	zakwilson_	jkdufair: Ubuntu 9.10 amd64, Gnu Emacs 23
14:36	chouser	angerman: why's that?
14:36	zakwilson_	And Clojure 1.1
14:36	jkdufair	zakwilson_: ah ok. i found clojure box for win32 and am loving it. not aware of a linux equivalent currently
14:36	technomancy	zakwilson_: how'd you install?
14:37	angerman	chouser: I'm trying to merge lots of maps of the kind {:a <double> :b <double> .... :t <double>} into {:a [<double> ...] .... :t [<double> ...]}
14:37	technomancy	and how did you launch slime
14:37	zakwilson_	technomancy: How'd I install what?
14:37	slyrus	zakwilson_: are you using the current SLIME head? that won't work
14:37	angerman	chouser: makeing the innter vectors transient speeds it up a little.
14:38	technomancy	zakwilson_: how did you install swank-clojure/slime? the best way is to use elpa as documented in http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
14:38	slyrus	zakwilson_: or just checkout commit 3b3f604c396f0c5ceb8bc5a13fa41061bcc96184 or earlier
14:38	slyrus	(slime, that is)
14:39	jasapp_	slyrus: of sbcl fame?
14:40	slyrus	sbcl is famous?
14:40	jasapp_	of course
14:41	zakwilson_	slyrus: I think the Slime version in the problem. I'll try downgrading.
14:41	slyrus	there's a discussion about the underlying cause of the problem on slime-devel
14:41	technomancy	zakwilson_: if you use the packages from elpa (http://tromey.com/elpa/install.html) it should work seamlessly
14:42	technomancy	no manual checkouts involved
14:42	stuartsierra	What would be a way to compare performance that's better than microbenchmarks?
14:42	slyrus	technomancy: which is to say that the ELPA/SLIME maintainers have decided not to roll slime forward to the current head until this problem is resolved?
14:43	zakwilson_	technomancy: I'll give that a try
14:44	technomancy	slyrus: more or less.
14:44	technomancy	slyrus: been waiting for someone who's gung-ho about both Clojure and CL to make it happen; I just don't have the time to do it myself.
14:46	technomancy	I took over swank-clojure maintenance from the original author, but I am 90% unfamiliar with the server implementation; I've only been focusing on making it easier to install and launch
14:48	stuartsierra	technomancy: Have you had a chance to think about a Maven repo deployment for swank-clojure?
14:48	technomancy	stuartsierra: apart from clojars you mean?
14:49	stuartsierra	something synced to Maven central
14:50	technomancy	stuartsierra: I've been happy with clojars so far. I guess the benefit would be that people using clojure-maven-plugin wouldn't have to add another repository to their list?
14:50	stuartsierra	yes
14:50	technomancy	I've been put off by the sluggish response for getting things into central and the general air of bureaucracy, but if people are asking for it I could make it happen.
14:50	stuartsierra	The central repository has its flaws, no doubt, but it simplifies deployment for a lot of people.
14:51	stuartsierra	I'm asking. :)
14:51	technomancy	I guess it's like apt-get--packages there are always going to be hopelessly behind, but it does serve as a lowest-common-denominator.
14:52	stuartsierra	It doesn't have to be that bad, if you're willing to take the time to setup an rsync repository. Turnaround to central is just a couple of days then.
14:52	technomancy	I haven't had much time for swank recently, but I'll definitely put it on my list.
14:52	stuartsierra	That's why I wanted build.clojure.org to have a releases dir, so we can set up sync to central.
14:53	technomancy	oh that's right--they don't want to sync from a snapshot repo
14:53	technomancy	I guess that's a feature request for clojars then
14:53	technomancy	dammit; where's _ato when you need him. =\
14:53	stuartsierra	I think clojars would need to distinguish actual "releases" from "I just threw this up" projects.
14:54	stuartsierra	We don't want another Rubygems.
14:54	technomancy	well rubygems didn't have prerelease versions implemented until like a year ago when I added them
14:54	technomancy	with mvn at least it has the -SNAPSHOT distinction
14:54	stuartsierra	true
14:55	technomancy	I'm not sure why a separate repository is needed when the version numbers contain all the info that's necessary.
14:55	stuartsierra	By the way, could one push Maven-built projects to Clojars?
14:55	technomancy	certainly
14:55	technomancy	you can push any jar that has a pom
14:55	stuartsierra	cool, I'll have to try that
14:56	technomancy	just scp pom.xml myjar.jar clojars@clojars.org:
14:57	stuartsierra	ok
14:58	stuartsierra	What if someone pushed a snapshot of something I wrote, e.g. http://clojars.org/clojure-hadoop
14:58	stuartsierra	Can I override that with my own release?
14:59	lypanov	zakwilson_: got it working already?
14:59	lypanov	if not, it was broken for me (and another guy)because i wasn't using technomancy's fork but instead the first hit on google.
15:00	somnium	stuartsierra: it seems _ato's attention is needed for resolving squatting (wherever he may be)
15:01	stuartsierra	I may just post as com.stuartsierra:clojure-hadoop, since I use that in my own repos.
15:01	zakwilson_	lypanov: not yet.
15:01	zakwilson_	I just got rid of my old slime, swank-clojure, clojure-mode and the like, then reinstalled with elpa. Now it can't find swank-clojure-autoload
15:03	zakwilson_	I can't start Slime with SBCL either: Couldn't load "/home/zak/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-20091016/swank-loader.lisp": file does not exist.
15:04	technomancy	stuartsierra: yeah, unfortunately that requires manual resolution
15:04	technomancy	groupIds are first-come-first-serve
15:05	stuartsierra	ok
15:05	technomancy	zakwilson_: sounds like you still have some manual slime config left in your dotfiles
15:06	technomancy	you should be able to remove it, if not try moving it to after the point where package.el is loaded
15:06	technomancy	I'm not 100% sure how to get sbcl working with the elpa slime, sorry.
15:07	zakwilson_	I moved the package.el load to the beginning. I'm removing all the manual configuration now.
15:09	zakwilson_	Alright, my remaining question is, how do I tell it where clojure.jar is?
15:10	zakwilson_	At least, I hope that's my only remaining question. I'll worry about SBCL later as I'm not actively working on anything CL.
15:11	chouser	cgrand: oh, I didn't realize you wanted a lazy seq
15:12	lypanov	zakwilson_: doesn't it magically download that?
15:12	cgrand	chouser: np it wasn't obvious
15:12	hiredman	http://twitter.com/s_m_conway/statuses/8038881221
15:12	cgrand	chouser: my best atrocity (defn f [rs] (partition 2 (rest (mapcat (fn [[a b] [c d]] (when (not= b c) [b c])) (cons nil rs) (concat rs [nil])))))
15:14	zakwilson_	lypanov: it offers to install Clojure. I already have it installed. I'd rather just let it know where to find it, but I suppose I could let it do its thing.
15:15	technomancy	zakwilson_: you can either set the elisp swank-clojure-classpath var or symlink all the jars you want to use into ~/.swank-clojure
15:17	lypanov	man.. relearning to use a finger thats been in a cast for 2 months is tough... 2 hours free and its not touching a single key still.
15:18	Raynes	technomancy: Oddly enough, symlinking the jars never seemed to work correctly for me. I ended up copying all the jars.
15:18	zakwilson_	technomancy: thanks. I'm letting it do its own install thing.
15:18	Raynes	Of course, it's irrelevant now, because I always use swank-clojure-project.
15:19	Raynes	zakwilson_: If you use swank-clojure-project, all of the jars in your lib/ directory will be slapped on the classpath.
15:23	Raynes	slyrus: Write it.
15:23	Raynes	:D
15:25	zakwilson_	Raynes: I recently found that. Looks useful. Thanks.
15:27	technomancy	swank-clojure-project is almost certainly what you want unless you're just getting started and trying things out
15:29	technomancy	swank-clojure is always looking for contributors too. =)
15:31	chouser	cgrand: can I use clojure-contrib?
15:31	chouser	cgrand: can I check something into clojure-contrib and then use it? :-)
15:31	fogus	chouser: I did. But mine was ugly. :-(
15:31	stuartsierra	For Git: how do I add an alternate upstream remote repo and fetch its branches?
15:32	technomancy	git remote add my-remote git://[...]; git fetch my-remote
15:32	stuartsierra	That's what I thought, but I don't get any new branches (git branch -a)
15:32	fogus	chouser: (defn f [s] (let [fl (su/flatten s) fq (su/frequencies fl)] (partition 2 (filter #(> 2 (fq %)) fl))))
15:33	technomancy	you can also use the github ruby gem where appropriate: if you're in contrib, "github track technomancy" will add my fork of contrib as a remote
15:33	stuartsierra	never mind
15:33	stuartsierra	I found the problem, bad URL
15:34	kmurph79	what do the astericks do on something like: (def nwords ...
15:34	stuartsierra	nothing, just naming convention
15:34	kmurph79	k
15:34	technomancy	kmurph79: it implies that the var is going to be rebound later
15:34	Chousuke	technomancy: only sometimes :P
15:35	technomancy	but technically it's like any other identifier
15:35	stuartsierra	I think that explanation gets overused. Mostly it just means "Global value"
15:35	Chousuke	foo is also used for unchanging constants
15:35	Chousuke	though if you adhere to the CL style I think those should be +foo+
15:37	technomancy	why do you need a special notation for a top-level var then?
15:37	technomancy	just to distinguish it from locals?
15:37	stuartsierra	yeah
15:37	technomancy	not sure if I buy that
15:38	technomancy	I mean, if you've got trouble telling what's a local and what's not, you probably have more serious issues
15:38	technomancy	like function bodies that are too long
15:38	stuartsierra	The idea is top-level globals are "bad", so the naming convention is supposed to remind you to avoid it where possible.
15:39	technomancy	I don't understand what's bad about immutable top-level values
15:39	stuartsierra	In CL they weren't immutable ...
15:39	stuartsierra	It's true, it's less of an issue in Clojure.
15:39	Raynes	It's a non-issue in Clojure.
15:40	tcrayford	I stick asterisks around stuff that might be rebound in certain locations
15:40	technomancy	if it's longer than that, (excluding logging, arg lists, and exception handling) it requires justification
15:40	zakwilson_	It's alive. Thanks, guys.
15:41	chouser	every def if a namespace-global probably-constant possibly-rebindable reference
15:42	chouser	so it seems silly to use earmuffs to mean global, constant, or rebindable.
15:42	tcrayford	aye
15:42	technomancy	chouser: there's a big difference between rebindable and intended-for-rebinding
15:42	chouser	I think it usually means that it's designed and expected to be rebound, as part of a configuration or something
15:42	chouser	yes
15:42	chouser	that's what earmuffs are for
15:42	tcrayford	take out for example
15:43	technomancy	naming is all about conveying intention
15:43	chouser	+'s aren't used because most things are mostly constant. I don't want filter to be named filter or +filter+
15:43	technomancy	well you can't rebind filter anyway with direct binding; heh
15:43	chouser	so a not-meant-to-be-rebound constant should have a plain name, just like filter
15:43	chouser	hm
15:43	chouser	good point. :-P
15:44	tcrayford	another note about filter, why doesn't it have a doc string
15:44	chouser	it does again
15:44	zakwilson_	Do I have to symlink clojure.jar, and swank-clojure to my projectroot/lib to use swank-clojure-project, or is there a way to give it a static location for those in .emacs?
15:45	technomancy	zakwilson_: I recommend using leiningen to handle your dependencies
15:45	technomancy	but if you only have a couple you could copy them to lib/ manually
15:45	technomancy	it just gets tedious after a while, and you definitely don't want to check them into your version control
15:45	technomancy	so if other people want to run your project, they have to hunt them down manually if you don't use a dependency manager.
15:48	technomancy	hehe
15:48	technomancy	try out leiningen; do "lein new myproject" to get started
15:49	zakwilson_	It's been a while since I set up my Clojure environment on my last machine (stolen). It's probably a good thing to start over and get up to speed on the latest tools.
15:53	technomancy	hopefully we've made some progress forward since then. =)
15:55	zakwilson_	I imagine so. It used to be annoying to build a standalone jar.
15:56	technomancy	"lein uberjar" now =)
16:06	alexyk_	do we have a time slots for mindless shouts "clojure is great!" and "I love clojure!"? sometimes I just feel like a dog rolling in the grass when clojure works
16:06	Raynes	alexyk_: I do it all the time.
16:06	alexyk_	Raynes: you keep to the grass patch over there
16:07	Raynes	:)
16:09	the-kenny	I praise clojure too, but in other channels. They laugh at me because I use java, but all of them love lisp. They didn't knew what to say when I told them about clojure :D
16:10	zakwilson_	I will admit to an initial knee-jerk "ewww Java!" reaction when I first heard about Clojure
16:10	alexyk_	lisp has no destructuring, right? maps are not first-class citizens, nor arrays? finally then can hand it back to Guy Steele and thank him for the good run.
16:11	alexyk_	zakwilson_: I still hate Java though. Alas it's there... but we can use the libs.
16:11	sh10151	I'm trying to install swank-clojure via ELPA and get some errors
16:11	zakwilson_	CL has destructuring, but Clojure has a lot of forms that do it automagically
16:11	sh10151	slime-repl.el:122:39:Error: No setf-method known for slime-connection-output-buffer
16:11	sh10151	and then
16:11	sh10151	swank-clojure.el:47:1:Error: Cannot open load file: slime
16:11	LauJensen	Odd: I have written a parser which chunks data in segments of 100 files then pmaps through the - There's 67k files in total and it blazed through the first 22k using up all the head -then cpu#1 went to 100% load while cpu#2 lingered at 30% - this stretched for about 5 minutes, then they swapped so cpu#2 is now 100% and cpu#1 is 30%
16:11	zakwilson_	For example, CL's let doesn't destructure. Instead, you'd use destructuring-bind.
16:11	alexyk_	zakwilson_: can lisp be taught to do the exact same destructuring as Clojure? say Allegro's?
16:12	alexyk_	I can't imagine going without maps and vectors.
16:12	zakwilson_	alexyk_: There are libraries that do things like that. metabang-bind is an example.
16:12	zakwilson_	CL has hash tables and vectors, but not first-class syntax for them. You can add it with reader macros, and there's probably a library that does it.
16:13	alexyk_	zakwilson_: since I'm a n00b in lispiness, I'd love to see some gurus make a CL emulating Clojure. Then I'll dig my good old Allegro license and try it!
16:13	zakwilson_	CL hash tables and vectors are mutable though, so it's not exactly like Clojure.
16:14	alexyk_	Clojure without Java, now that would be fun
16:14	zakwilson_	Most of what's cool about Clojure can be done in CL, but it's not likely to be quite as polished.
16:14	alexyk_	zakwilson_: well... my hunch is Clojure will overtake lisp in all respects in a few years anyways
16:14	alexyk_	meaning non-clojure lisps
16:15	zakwilson_	The only thing I've really been missing from CL is method combination.
16:15	LauJensen	zakwilson_: you mean comb?
16:18	zakwilson_	He left before I could ask about that. What's comb? I don't see it in the API.
16:20	alexyk_	,(letfn [(f [x & [a b]] (print (str "x:" x ", a:" a ", b:" b)))] (f 1))
16:20	clojurebot	x:1, a:, b:
16:20	alexyk_	ah ok works
16:23	alexyk_	clojurebot has that fearsomness which makes code goes week in the knees and work
16:23	arnihermann	has anyone experience with datalog in clojure?
16:41	Chousuke	hmm
16:42	Chousuke	wrote a plugin for lein for running examples easily
16:47	dabd	I tried (require '[clojure.contrib.str-utils2 :as s]) and then (s/uppercase "asdf") and got java.lang.Exception: No such var: s/uppercase (NO_SOURCE_FILE:9) What am I doing wrong?
16:47	chouser	s/upper-case
16:48	hiredman	,(require '[clojure.contrib.str-utils2 :as s])
16:48	clojurebot	nil
16:48	hiredman	,(s/uppercase "asdf")
16:48	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: s/uppercase
16:48	chouser	,(s/upper-case "asdf")
16:48	clojurebot	"ASDF"
16:49	dabd	duh! thx
16:49	konr	is there any library to deal with finding sexps inside other sexps, like {:foo "bar" :baz [[[[[4]]]]]} inside [3 4 {:foo "bar" :baz [[[[[4]]]]]}]?
16:50	chouser	what do you mean by "finding"?
16:50	chouser	you want to know if something equal to your map exists somewhere inside? true/false?
16:51	technomancy	anyone else seeing contrib test failures for JMX?
16:51	technomancy	I'm getting it on some machines but not others and can't figure out the pattern.
16:51	alexyk_	hmm -- so clojurebot now remembers imports/requires?
16:51	technomancy	fails on my ubuntu machine, but not on scgilardi's ubuntu VM
16:52	konr	chouser: yes
16:54	konr	chouser: actually I want something more flexible, like being able to use a function instead of a symbol to match, ie, {:size #(> % 3)} in {:foo {:size 1}}
16:54	chouser	(some #{needle} (tree-seq coll? seq haystack))
16:55	arohner	chouser: I didn't know about tree-seq. That's really cool
16:56	Raynes	technomancy: Is there a way to make Leiningen include unrelated files in the jars it creates? Such as a LICENSE or README for instance?
16:57	konr	chouser: that's very interesting!
16:57	konr	chouser: thanks!
16:57	chouser	konr: so you should be able to drop your predicate in there in place of #{needle}, and find whatever you're looking for
16:58	chouser	or use 'filter' instead of 'some' to find all matches
16:58	technomancy	Raynes: I've thought about adding that, but there's no code for it yet
16:58	technomancy	would be an easy patch
16:58	konr	chouser: yes, and I thought I'd have to develop a whole library to deal with this!
16:58	Raynes	technomancy: Could be pretty important.
17:00	hiredman	uh
17:00	hiredman	what about ./resources/
17:00	hiredman	last time I put a file in ./resources/ it ended up in the root of the jar
17:01	technomancy	hiredman: well it'd be better not to have to keep two copies of the readme around
17:02	hiredman	oh
17:02	hiredman	I see
17:02	hiredman	right
17:06	scottj	hiredman: are there docs on lein-gae?
17:06	hiredman	nope
17:06	scottj	what commands/features does it provide?
17:07	tcrayford	lein help
17:07	hiredman	scottj: I would checkout this fork http://github.com/the-kenny/lein-gae
17:08	the-kenny	huh
17:08	hiredman	my branch doesn't do much atm
17:08	hiredman	it has an appegine-setup command that creates some directories and does some rewriting of procject.clj
17:09	the-kenny	My branch doesn't do much more ;) But I have some plans for appengine-push and such things
17:09	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/appengine-helper might be a better choice
17:09	the-kenny	It's a bit annoying because it looks like you need the while appengine-sdk-directory
17:09	hiredman	not lein though, uses ant
17:09	hiredman	yes
17:09	the-kenny	s/while/whole/
17:09	hiredman	appengine-helper uses a somewhat dated version of the sdk currently
17:10	scottj	I was looking at using http://github.com/zitterbewegung/blank-appengine-clj as the base for my project but it looks like it also uses an old sdk
17:10	hiredman	but it works and I have used it for two apps (that do very little)
17:10	hiredman	oh
17:10	hiredman	thats kind of nice
17:10	hiredman	wow
17:11	hiredman	the-kenny: steal that project.clj
17:11	the-kenny	hiredman: Because of the dependencies?
17:11	hiredman	that looks like the way to go
17:11	hiredman	the-kenny: yeah
17:12	hiredman	tracking down all the sdk's jars is :(
17:12	the-kenny	pushed it into my Inbox for Todos
17:24	alexyk_	I want to stick a new value in update-in, regardless of what was there; like
17:24	alexyk_	,(update-in {} [1 2] (fn [_] 3))
17:24	clojurebot	{1 {2 3}}
17:24	alexyk_	is there anything shorter?
17:24	dnolen	assoc-in
17:24	alexyk_	oh!
17:25	alexyk_	clojure is small, but someone already wrote all the functions...
17:37	alexyk_	can you mix, in map destructuring, :keys [list] and val-name different-key-name?
17:37	chouser	sure
17:37	konr	Is there a function like partition that uses a functions instead of a number to decide where to split? like (cut-where #(> 3 %) [1 2 3 4 1 2 3]) -> [[1 2 3] [4 1 2 3]]
17:38	alexyk_	loovely
17:38	alexyk_	,(let [{a :argh :keys [b c]} {:argh 1 :b 2 :c 3}] [a b c])
17:38	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
17:40	Chousuke	konr: split-with?
17:41	konr	Chousuke: Thanks!
17:44	arohner	I'm getting tired of writing (:require) lines of the format (:require [a.b.c :as c]). is it possible to write a macro that simplifies that?
17:44	jcromartie	does duck-streams work with basic auth baked into the URL?
17:44	jcromartie	like https://user:pass@example.com/
17:44	alexyk_	arohner: I'm tired of the whole use/require/import distinction
17:44	technomancy	arohner: there's been talk of revamping it
17:45	technomancy	see the "ns docstring needs work" thread from a few months ago
17:45	chouser	import needs to be separate, but use/require should become one thing
17:45	scottj	With lein-gae how do you launch your app locally for testing? how do you deploy to gae?
17:45	alexyk_	chouser: because import is JVM thing?
17:45	hiredman	scottj: none of that is there
17:46	chouser	alexyk_: well, because it means something different. you import classes, you use/require namespaces.
17:46	Chousuke	arohner: sure you can write a macro
17:46	hiredman	I just broke ground on it, and then haven't finished it
17:46	Chousuke	arohner: you only need to write something that expands to the proper (ns ...) form :)
17:46	arohner	oh right, I can always write a macro that generates ns
17:46	arohner	I was original thinking, can I write a macro that fits inside ns, or does ns's macroexpansion run first
17:46	Chousuke	arohner: though it might break tools that expect ns :P
17:46	dabd	My Java code is passing a null value to a Clojure function however the null value fails the 'nil?' predicate. I am surprised since the documentation mentions that 'nil has the same value as Java null'
17:46	jcromartie	I'm guessing that java.net.URL is the bottleneck
17:46	arohner	Chousuke: that's why I don't use "smart" tools :-)
17:47	alexyk_	if you guys fix ns the tools probably become obsoleted anyways...
17:47	chouser	arohner: have you looked at the definition of 'ns'?
17:47	Chousuke	arohner: you can also create a helper macro that expands to all the needed calls to require and use and use it in addition to ns, so you don't break tools too badly :p
17:47	chouser	arohner: I think you'd just have to (in-ns 'clojure.core), define a new fn or macro, and you could start using it in (ns ...)
17:47	scottj	hiredman: so you use ant for that stuff?
17:48	hiredman	scottj: I don't do appengine work regularly, what I have done has been using appengine-helper
17:49	hiredman	appengine-helper has some rough edges too, but it has a start-server target for the local server
17:49	arohner	chouser: that's the kind of answer I was hoping for! thanks
17:50	jcromartie	:use and :require are about the most boilerplate-y stuff I have come across yet in Clojure, compared to most other languages it's still not much to complain about :)
17:52	jcromartie	I feel like maybe they could go away entirely leaving only :use :as in the end.
17:52	technomancy	jcromartie: you should read the mailing list thread, lots of good ideas there
17:55	redalastor	How would you go about converting indexes (0 based) into Excel-like column labels (A to Z, then AA, AB, etc.)?
17:57	chouser	Raynes: all the good ones do!
17:57	jcromartie	redalastor: sounds like a simple enough job for the various sequence functions
17:57	jcromartie	$VISUAL
17:57	briansheehan	Hello, is there a difference between clojure.core/resolve and clojure.core/find-var?
17:57	chouser	Raynes: mutt, gmail (+ itsalltext), emacs email thingy (whatever its called)
17:57	Raynes	I use Thunderbird.
17:57	Raynes	:o
17:57	chouser	Raynes: I do too, sometimes. It does not count as a "good one"
17:58	jcromartie	briansheehan: find-var is only for vars, resolve/ns-resolve is for vars or classes
17:58	technomancy	Raynes: I write all my mail in Emacs via gnus
17:58	arohner	briansheehan: resolve uses ns, so it looks in the current ns by default
17:58	Raynes	I haven't figured out gnus yet.
17:58	chouser	gnus, that's it. I used that for a while. not bad at all
17:58	chouser	though no gmail
17:58	Raynes	Albeit, I haven't really tried either.
17:58	redalastor	jcromartie: I don't want to create a sequence of indexes, just turn a single index into letters.
17:58	technomancy	it's really nice for mailing lists and news-like stuff
17:58	Raynes	I've been using thunderbird for like 3 years noe.
17:58	briansheehan	Looks to me like resolve does everything that find-var can do though.
17:58	Raynes	now*
17:59	jcromartie	right, redalastor, I'm just saying a seq of indexes will probably come into play
18:00	arohner	briansheehan: resolve is a super-set of find-var, because it also looks up classes
18:00	arohner	and the signatures are different because you'd have to bind ns if you want to look in other namespaces
18:00	arohner	which is kind of strange
18:01	janjan	I was wondering, why do we need alength and why doesn't (.length (int-array 3)) work?
18:01	janjan	some kind of restriction on java reflection?
18:02	arohner	janjan: (.foo bar) means call bar.foo() in java
18:02	chouser	java arrasys don't have an instance method named 'length'
18:02	redalastor	janjan: length is a property on arrays, not a method.
18:03	janjan	I thought I had used .something for properties before, but apparently I thought wrong
18:03	chouser	a property?
18:03	janjan	field
18:03	Chousuke	I think array.length is something weird, actually.
18:03	chouser	you can do field lookups with (.fieldname obj), so I don't think it's that
18:03	Chousuke	since if it were a field, (.length array) would work :/
18:03	chouser	right
18:03	arohner	right, it can't be a normal field, or you could do [1,2,3].length = 5
18:04	Chousuke	I guess it's like int.class or whatever
18:04	chouser	compiler sugar? huh.
18:04	chouser	I really know very little java
18:05	hiredman	yes
18:05	hiredman	there is, I think, an opcode for arraylength
18:07	hiredman	clojurebot: bytecode?
18:07	clojurebot	http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/kwxm/JVM/codeByNo.html
18:07	hiredman	I should just teach clojurebot the bytecode
18:08	janjan	http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/kwxm/JVM/codeByNo.html
18:08	janjan	meant http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jvms/second_edition/html/Instructions2.doc.html#arraylength
18:09	hiredman	clojurebot: arraylength is 0xBE (190)
18:09	clojurebot	Alles klar
18:09	hiredman	clojurebot: 190?
18:09	hiredman	that is not cool
18:09	hiredman	clojurebot: arraylength?
18:09	clojurebot	arraylength is 0xBE (190)
18:09	janjan	:)
18:10	janjan	never too late to learn something new, I guess
18:10	hiredman	clojurebot: 190?
18:10	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:10	hiredman	yay for typo's swallowing exceptions
18:11	hiredman	clojurebot: 190?
18:11	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:11	hiredman	clojurebot: 0xBE
18:11	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:11	hiredman	bah
18:11	janjan	clojurebot: arraylength?
18:11	clojurebot	arraylength is 0xBE (190)
18:11	janjan	clojurebot: invokevirtual?
18:11	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:11	briansheehan	arohner: you can give resolve a namespace qualified symbol if you want something outside the current ns
18:13	arohner	briansheehan: ah, right
18:13	briansheehan	On the subject of rebinding ns, according to clojure.org that's a no-no, can anyone illuminate for me?
18:13	briansheehan	That's funny, clojurebot is speaking Gaelic!
18:14	devlinsf	briansheehan: I imaging that might ruin hygenic variable capture
18:14	ohpauleez	briansheehan: You manipulate the namespace using the ns macro
18:14	ohpauleez	and you shouldn't manipulate it directly
18:14	janjan	clojurebot: Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:14	clojurebot	not a problem, the average bid for it on getacoder is $821.00
18:14	hiredman	ohpauleez: you shouldn't use the ns macro for manipulating namespaces
18:14	hiredman	the ns macro is for creating namespaces
18:15	hiredman	for switching namespaces use in-ns
18:15	ohpauleez	hiredman speaks the truth
18:17	zakwilson_	So I see there's Postal for sending mail. What if I want to write an SMTP server? Is there a nice library for that?
18:20	zakwilson_	To be specific, I want something that will receive mail and provide hooks for deciding if an address is valid, and what to do with the data.
18:21	scottj	hiredman: the readme for appengine-helper has a commandline ant -build ... is that a typo or am I misunderstanding it, my ant doesn't have a -build arg
18:21	zakwilson_	Is Apache James what I want?
18:22	briansheehan	hiredman: just being pedantic, both the docs for both ns & in-ns say : "Sets ns to the namespace named by the symbol, creating it if needed", sounds like you could use either of them to switch namespaces
18:23	hiredman	scottj: sorry, should be buildfile
18:24	piccolino	mattrepl, how funny, I was just studying how your cassandra bindings allow you to make a function named "get."
18:25	jcromartie	an I add methods to a proxy'ed object after the fact?
18:26	hiredman	briansheehan: ns has more machinery under the hood, most of which makes the assumption that it is working with a pristine namespace
18:26	hiredman	,(doc update-proxy)
18:26	clojurebot	"([proxy mappings]); Takes a proxy instance and a map of strings (which must correspond to methods of the proxy superclass/superinterfaces) to fns (which must take arguments matching the corresponding method, plus an additional (explicit) first arg corresponding to this, and updates (via assoc) the proxy's fn map. nil can be passed instead of a fn, in which case the corresponding method will revert to the default behavior
18:29	jcromartie	thanks hiredman
18:29	jcromartie	and clojurebot
18:34	jcromartie	I don't see anything in the interop page about implementing a constructor from a proxy
18:37	jcromartie	is that possible?
18:37	hiredman	nope
18:39	jcromartie	I guess it's not really necessary with closures
18:45	Raynes	What would be a good name for a clojure-based email client?
18:46	Raynes	MailCljiant is too hackish.
18:54	slyrus	good lord... what is all this stuff maven wants to download and why do i want it?
18:59	callapm	ditch maven. stick with rake or ant
18:59	slyrus	callapm: believe me, i have no interest in running maven. just trying to build incanter.
18:59	technomancy	Raynes: didn't you hear about the new rule? you're not allowed to have a J in the name of your clojure programs.
19:00	callapm	slyrus: woops gotcha. i hear ya.
19:00	hiredman	if you put a J in your clojure program names, your nick will be stricken from the logs
19:00	Raynes	technomancy: Doesn't matter. There was no good way of fusing Clojure and 'Mail'. I just named it Snail.
19:01	technomancy	hiredman: I'm enforcing it in the next version of "lein new"
19:01	hiredman	pop up a swing window
19:01	hiredman	"you apear to be starting a project with J in the name, please no puns"
19:05	briansheehan	Jail works for me though.
19:05	clojurebot	for is not a loop
19:10	mattrepl	piccolino: sorry, was afk
19:10	piccolino	Oh, no problem.
19:11	piccolino	I didn't have anything more to say.
19:11	piccolino	But the timing was pretty funny, I pulled up the source on github and saw you pop into the channel on the side of my screen within 5 seconds.
19:11	mattrepl	=)
19:14	Raynes	clojurebot: Is for a loop?
19:14	clojurebot	egal is http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
19:29	beutdeuce	how would i call the java Queue constructor from clojure?
19:30	hiredman	Queue is an interface
19:30	hiredman	it has no constructor
19:30	beutdeuce	well, the linkedlist for that matter
19:31	beutdeuce	LinkedList<Integer> for example
19:31	hiredman	well, you can forget generics
19:31	hiredman	they don't exist
19:31	beutdeuce	oh
19:31	beutdeuce	hm
19:31	hiredman	generics are a compiler construct
19:31	hiredman	the byte code just deals with objects
19:32	hiredman	so in clojure you don't have to care about generics
19:32	hiredman	,(import '(java.util ArrayList))
19:32	clojurebot	java.util.ArrayList
19:32	hiredman	,(ArrayList.)
19:32	clojurebot	#<ArrayList []>
19:33	hiredman	dunno why you would use a LinkedList when you can use clojure's lists
19:33	beutdeuce	how would i do something like the following in java: Queue<Integer> q = new LinkedList<Integer>();?
19:33	beutdeuce	i wouldn't
19:33	hiredman	you wouldn't
19:33	beutdeuce	practically i wouldn't, i just want to know hwo
19:34	hiredman	no, you wouldn't
19:34	hiredman	Queue<Integer> q is declaring the variable q to have the type Queue<Integer>
19:34	hiredman	clojure is a dynamic language so you don't do that sort of thing
19:35	beutdeuce	so there are no interfaces in clojure?
19:35	hiredman	there are interfaces
19:35	hiredman	you just don't type everything
19:35	hiredman	there is no need
19:35	beutdeuce	k
19:36	hiredman	,(import '(java.util LinkedList))
19:36	clojurebot	java.util.LinkedList
19:36	hiredman	,(let [q (LinkedList.)])
19:36	clojurebot	nil
19:36	hiredman	but generally you would not do that
19:37	hiredman	,(let [q ()])
19:37	beutdeuce	yes, i knoew
19:37	clojurebot	nil
19:37	hiredman	since clojure has list literals
19:37	beutdeuce	thnx
19:37	rikthevik	so here's a question for ya
19:37	rikthevik	lots of times i find what i passed into a function isn't what i meant to pass in. forgetting to @ refs happens all the time
19:38	rikthevik	are type hints the way to catch improper parameter types?
19:38	rikthevik	or preconditions
19:38	qbg	Preconditions would be the way to go
19:38	rikthevik	also, how can i verify that an argument is the type of struct-map i think it is
19:39	hiredman	you can check to see if it has the right keys
19:39	hiredman	or use a type tag
19:39	rikthevik	ah, that's not a bad idea
19:40	beutdeuce	are clojure sets automatically sorted?
19:40	beutdeuce	nvm, they are not
19:40	chouser_	sorted-sets are :-)
19:40	beutdeuce	mhm, thats cool
19:43	beutdeuce	do sorted-maps sort by whichever elements are Comparable?
19:44	hiredman	,(sorted-set :a 1)
19:44	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
19:45	beutdeuce	,(sorted-map :a 1)
19:45	clojurebot	{:a 1}
19:45	hiredman	,(sorted-map :a 1 2 :b)
19:45	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
19:46	beutdeuce	,(sorted-map :a 1 2 :b)
19:46	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
19:46	beutdeuce	lol
19:46	beutdeuce	weird
19:46	hiredman	no
19:46	tcrayford	not weird
19:46	hiredman	,(.compare 1 :a)
19:46	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: compare for class java.lang.Integer
19:46	tcrayford	things have to be comparable to sort them
19:46	hiredman	bah
19:46	beutdeuce	oh
19:46	chouser	,(compare 1 :a)
19:46	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
19:47	hiredman	,(.compareTo 1 :a)
19:47	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Integer
19:47	beutdeuce	,(sorted-map :a 2 :b 3)
19:47	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 3}
19:47	beutdeuce	,(sorted-map :a "1" :b "10")
19:47	clojurebot	{:a "1", :b "10"}
19:48	hiredman	,{:a 1 2 :b}
19:48	clojurebot	{:a 1, 2 :b}
19:48	ctdean	Isn't there a load-file function that will load a clojure file at some arbitrary path?
19:49	hiredman	,(doc load-file)
19:49	clojurebot	"([name]); Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the file."
19:49	ctdean	yep, there it is
19:49	beutdeuce	is clojure's reduce like Haskells foldr or foldl?
19:49	ctdean	must have some messed up env
19:49	ctdean	Thanks
19:50	hiredman	beutdeuce: foldl I believe
19:51	beutdeuce	k
19:51	hiredman	I tell a lie, it must be foldr
19:51	hiredman	nope
19:51	hiredman	foldl
19:52	hiredman	<-- not a haskeller
19:52	hiredman	clojurebot: reduce?
19:52	clojurebot	Pardon?
19:52	hiredman	clojurebot: foldl
19:52	clojurebot	excusez-moi
19:52	hiredman	clojurebot: foldr
19:52	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:52	beutdeuce	lol
19:52	hiredman	http://www.zvon.org/other/haskell/Outputprelude/foldl_f.html <-- this is reduce
19:53	beutdeuce	k, does clojure have a foldr?
19:53	hiredman	nope
19:53	beutdeuce	k
19:53	hiredman	clojure is not lazy evaluated
19:53	beutdeuce	oh, ok
19:53	beutdeuce	i had a feeling it is
19:54	hiredman	it is not
19:54	beutdeuce	there are lazy implementations though of certain functions
19:54	hiredman	clojure has lazy sequences, but those are the only lazy things
19:54	hiredman	beutdeuce: yes, functions that consume and produce lazy sequences
20:14	Raynes	You access a Java field the same way you access a static method, right?
20:14	rhickey	Raynes: static field?
20:14	Raynes	Yes.
20:15	rhickey	AClass/aStaticField
20:15	rhickey	no parens
20:15	Raynes	Thought so. Thanks.
20:15	rhickey	Math/PI
20:16	rhickey	,Math/PI
20:16	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
20:19	tcrayford	man clojure contrib api docs are really hard to reach via google/moving around the clojure website
20:19	tcrayford	(actually, its ok via google, just very hard to get to from clojure.org)
20:24	rhickey	http://clojure.org/ , then User contribs in upper right
20:26	tcrayford	perhaps thats slightly poorly labelled?
20:26	rhickey	could be
20:27	tcrayford	maybe "library api" or something like that
20:28	rhickey	hmm, it's not the main library api
20:28	tcrayford	tis true
20:28	tcrayford	maybe just "Contrib API"
20:29	rhickey	what about Contrib library?
20:30	tcrayford	better
20:30	tcrayford	I think
20:31	rhickey	done
20:31	tcrayford	nice then
20:52	alexyk	I create maps like {1 3, 2 2, 3 2, 4 1, 5 3, 6 4, 7 7} and they also print in sorted key order; coincidence?
20:53	tcrayford	should use sorted-map
20:53	alexyk	,(let [m {0 2, 1 3, 2 2, 3 2, 4 1, 5 3, 6 4, 7 7}] (assoc m 0 2))
20:53	clojurebot	{0 2, 1 3, 2 2, 3 2, 4 1, 5 3, 6 4, 7 7}
20:53	chouser	alexyk: coincidence.
20:53	dabd	consing to a vector returns a list, how do I add an item as the first element a of a vector and still get one?
20:54	chouser	dabd: vectors can't "grow" on the left side, though of course you could copy a new value plus all the elements from the old one into a new one.
20:55	chouser	alexyk: small literal maps are usually PersistentArrayMaps, which stay in the order yoy put them. but as they get larger they may change concrete type.
20:56	alexyk	ah
20:56	alexyk	if I create a sorted-map, does it in all other respects behave like a regular map?
20:56	alexyk	syntactically
20:57	dabd	chouser: so to concatenate to vectors you need to do something like (into [] (concat vec1 vec2)) ?
20:57	alexyk	i.e. looks up its own keys, etc
20:57	dabd	two vectors
20:57	alexyk	destructures
20:57	chouser	dabd: yes, though if you intend to do that a lot you might consider using a list
20:58	chouser	alexyk: yep
20:58	alexyk	nice
20:59	chouser	have to be more careful about key types than you do with hash-maps
21:01	chouser	btw, we cover all this in detail in the upcoming chapter
21:03	alexyk	ok here's a trickier one. I create a map with (sorted-map) and then add things to it with (assoc-in sm [a b] v). When taking (vec sm), I'll get things like ["user" {1 2, 2 0, 3 5}]. Does sortedness of sm spread down to {1 2, 2 0, 3 5}?
21:03	alexyk	a is string, b and v are ints
21:04	alexyk	if not, what's the way to create the inner map in sorted order, given that it's never done explicitly -- auto-vivified in assoc-in?
21:07	chouser	the sortedness will not spread.
21:08	devlinsf	alexyk: I think you'd need to write your own version of assoc-in
21:09	alexyk	alas
21:09	alexyk	devlinsf: i.e. an assoc-in which makes the leaves sorted-map's, right?
21:09	devlinsf	Yeah
21:10	devlinsf	alexyk: Hmmm... this could be a really good exercise in HOFs....
21:10	devlinsf	must write about this later...
21:11	alexyk	devlinsf: I'm all ears :)
21:11	devlinsf	Gimme a sec to play at the REPL....
21:11	alexyk	kk
21:13	chouser	I don't see where in the source of assoc-in new hash-maps are created.
21:15	chouser	oh! it's in assoc
21:15	chouser	,(assoc nil :a 1)
21:15	clojurebot	{:a 1}
21:15	chouser	,(class (assoc nil :a 1))
21:15	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
21:17	devlinsf	Yeah
21:17	devlinsf	chouser: Threw me off too
21:18	chouser	oh no! and direct binding prevents an easy hack to work around it.
21:19	jcromartie	I'm playing with proxy again, and I am not sure how to do this... I want to pass the proxy itself to one of its methods
21:19	chouser	you just need a third arg to the 'get' in there
21:19	chouser	jcromartie: in the body of a proxy form you can use the word this to refer to itself
21:19	jcromartie	ah, this
21:20	devlinsf	chouser:
21:20	devlinsf	chouser: yep
21:20	JonSmith	do you have to quote the this?
21:20	chouser	JonSmith: nope
21:21	chouser	,(proxy [Object] [] (toString [] (str "This hashCode is: " (.hashCode this))))
21:21	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
21:26	devlinsf	chouser, alexyk: http://gist.github.com/283450
21:26	devlinsf	Various versions of assoc-in
21:27	alexyk	beautiful
21:27	alexyk	there's 20 millions records waiting to fly through then right away
21:28	chouser	note that assoc-in-by calls f for every level, whather it's needed or not
21:28	chouser	whether
21:28	devlinsf	get is eager?
21:28	chouser	get is a function
21:28	devlinsf	I guess it has to be...
21:28	chouser	all args get evaluated before its called
21:28	devlinsf	Well, okay. Details. Nothing an if-guard won't fix
21:29	chouser	it would probably be sufficient to provide a base object
21:29	alexyk	so (sorted-map) will also be called every time?
21:29	chouser	(get m k default-map)
21:30	devlinsf	I'm thinking more (let [local-k (get m k)] (if k k (f)))
21:30	devlinsf	At least for assoc-in-by
21:30	chouser	devlinsf: that might not do what you expect if a map has a 'nil' value
21:31	devlinsf	Hmmm... right
21:31	alexyk	is there an empty sorted-map object or only (sorted-map) call ?
21:31	alexyk	I'd settle for assoc-in-2 first :)
21:31	devlinsf	(if (contains ...) (get ...) f)
21:31	chouser	(def m (sorted-map)) ; <- there it is!
21:31	devlinsf	That'll work
21:31	chouser	devlinsf: yes, though that means it does each lookup twice. :-P
21:32	alexyk	chouser: but m will have to be packaged with assoc-in-2 right?
21:32	chouser	well, you don't really want it hard-coded. later you'll be wanting to use sorted-map-by with your own comparator
21:32	alexyk	so we're talking a special namespace for those
21:32	devlinsf	chouser: I'm gonna get this ...
21:32	chouser	devlinsf: :-)
21:33	alexyk	chouser: but is assoc-in-2 is called in a loop, and it defines m all the time... ah wait, you mean extra parameter, caller will def it?
21:37	devlinsf	chouser: There's no get-entry fn or method
21:37	devlinsf	My best answer is to go back to the let version, and add a contains check if required
21:37	chouser	devlinsf: 'find'
21:38	devlinsf	find?
21:38	devlinsf	hmmm.
21:38	devlinsf	Ah!
21:38	devlinsf	Hmmm
21:39	chouser	you don't like a constant?
21:39	devlinsf	me?
21:39	clojurebot	your name is clojurebot
21:39	chouser	(assoc-in-by m (sorted-map) [1 2 3] :val)
21:40	devlinsf	Ah
21:40	devlinsf	A constant might be better
21:40	devlinsf	I see what you mean now
21:41	devlinsf	Yes, definitely
21:44	devlinsf	chouser: renamed associn-by to assoc-in-as
21:54	alexyk	devlinsf: lovely! -as is a bit confusing. is there a short -default suffix?
21:55	alexyk	assoc-in-with?
21:55	clojurebot	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-21.html#13:04
21:55	devlinsf	Hmmm... I don't see why not
21:56	devlinsf	alexyk: Done
21:57	alexyk	cool!
21:57	devlinsf	Hmmm... how often does this problem occur?
21:58	devlinsf	Anyone?
21:59	chouser	wanting something other than a hash-map for assoc-in?
21:59	devlinsf	chouser: Yeah
21:59	chouser	This is the first I've heard someone ask for it.
21:59	Raynes	What is that emacs mode that highlights the paren you're cursor is on, and the paren that matches it?
21:59	Raynes	your*
21:59	Raynes	/spellfail
22:00	devlinsf	chouser: Hmmm... okay
22:00	devlinsf	The gist will be there, and if it comes up again it should help
22:00	devlinsf	Should need to go no further
22:01	chouser	well, it seems a reasonable feature to have
22:01	chouser	and it would actually fit right into 'assoc-in', it doesn't need a new fn
22:01	devlinsf	Not quite
22:01	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
22:01	alexyk	devlinsf: chouser: they don't ask 'cause they don't deal with the twitter graph analysis. you'd be tired to sort it for every view.
22:02	devlinsf	chouser: What if a map is a key
22:03	chouser	devlinsf: assoc-in only take 3 args, yours takes 4
22:03	devlinsf	chouser: Oh, right Mistook the [k & ks] as variadic
22:06	alexyk	then we'll need the sistyer update-in-with and stick it into core!
22:06	alexyk	sister
22:07	alexyk	or c.c.vivify or something
22:08	devlinsf	alexyk: Update-in is trickier
22:09	devlinsf	I'll throw the idea on the main list, feel free to add your thought alexyk
22:09	alexyk	sure
22:59	dabd	is there a reason for Clojure changing types of data structures? e.g. two vectors returns a list instead of a vector
22:59	dabd	concat
23:00	hiredman	,(doc concat)
23:00	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
23:02	devlinsf	dabd: It has to do with lazynes
23:02	dabd	ok. and a seq is a logical list
23:02	devlinsf	Also, it produces a more predicable api
23:03	dabd	how do you concatenate two vectors without producing "intermediate" lists?
23:04	devlinsf	You mean vectors in, vectors out?
23:04	dabd	yes
23:04	hiredman	,(into [] [1 2 3 4] [5 6 7 8])
23:04	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$into
23:04	devlinsf	(into [] (concat ...))
23:04	devlinsf	Maybe reduce could do the job
23:05	hiredman	oh
23:05	hiredman	duh
23:05	dabd	but that produces a lazy seq before creating the final vector
23:05	hiredman	,(into [1 2 3 4] [5 6 7 8])
23:05	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]
23:05	devlinsf	,(reduce #(conj [1 2 3] %) [4 5 6])
23:05	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--4937$fn
23:05	devlinsf	Right, duh
23:05	dabd	how to do it without laziness?
23:06	hiredman	,(into [1 2 3 4] [5 6 7 8])
23:06	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]
23:08	dabd	hiredman: that was what I meant. thx
23:17	hiredman	http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/klambda.htm hohoho