#clojure – 2010-01-14

2010-01-14

00:00	arohner	if I put a dorun around it, I see 12 prints, and then exception
00:00	arohner	if I take the dorun off, I see 0 prints, and then exception
00:00	hiredman	erm
00:00	arohner	yeah.
00:00	hiredman	how are you consuming the for?
00:00	arohner	I'll try to come up with a reproducing example
00:00	arohner	the for is returned by a function. I'm calling the function from the repl => the repl is consuming
00:01	hiredman	hmmm
00:02	hiredman	I certainly cannot reproduce it
00:02	hiredman	(for [x (range 13)] (if (= x 12) (throw (Exception.)) (prn x)))
00:04	hiredman	oh!
00:04	hiredman	are you using println or print?
00:04	arohner	println
00:04	hiredman	hmmm
00:05	hiredman	thought it might be a flushing issue
00:05	arohner	I reproduced it using your example, moving the body into a separate function
00:05	arohner	lisppaste8: url
00:05	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
00:06	lisppaste8	arohner pasted "weird println issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93372
00:08	arohner	sigh.
00:08	arohner	it happens in slime, but not at the repl
00:08	arohner	not at the real console
00:08	arohner	it's a slime issue.
00:09	arohner	well, thanks for the help
00:31	yangsx1	Maybe this just happens to me. Projects using maven and thus leiningen sometimes make it difficult to work, because access to the central repos may fail, as is the case here in Beijing. Fortunately clojure and clojure-contrib havent moved to maven or lein to build themselves.
00:34	hiredman	you can add a repository you have more reliable access to
00:34	durka42	i can't seem to compile the latest contrib against the latest clojure
00:34	durka42	java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V
00:38	hiredman	works for me
00:39	yangsx	hiredman: thanks for the tip, but I even cannot make "lein-stable deps" finish itself (maybe a temporary problem with the release of clojure 1.1).
00:40	hiredman	yangsx: and the problem is you are unable to grap the jars from maven central?
00:40	hiredman	grab
00:40	hiredman	http://groups.google.com/group/tuscany-sca-chinese/browse_thread/thread/3113aebbcbe710b4
00:41	hiredman	durka42: that works for me was for you
00:42	yangsx	hiredman: No, because "snapshot org.clojure:clojure-contrib:1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT" could not be retrieved
00:42	hiredman	ah
00:42	durka42	hiredman: hmm. i'll clean out the dir and try again
00:44	durka42	hiredman: huh, now it worked
00:48	hiredman	it would be nice if someone figured out what that exception is
00:49	hiredman	<init> is a constructor, (I)V means it takes an Integer and returns void
00:50	hiredman	and restfn has a constructor with that signature
00:50	hiredman	:\|
01:53	optimizer	is there any chance a shell (like bash/zsh) written in clojure?
01:54	unfo-	optimizer, i was thinking about it myself ;) but that
01:54	unfo-	's as far as it has gone
01:54	unfo-	but dunno, haven't googled for it
02:30	G0SUB	what is the best way to convert a string to a stream and vice versa?
02:31	G0SUB	I am trying to download a zip file using an http client and I want to unzip it in-memory and get the unzipped string back.
02:34	replaca	G0SUB: I think you want StringReader or StringBufferInputStream
02:35	G0SUB	replaca: looking. thanks.
02:37	G0SUB	replaca: does that behave like a File? ZipFile can take only a file.
02:38	replaca	G0SUB: no, isn't there a way to zip a stream?
02:39	replaca	yeah, ZipInputStream
02:39	G0SUB	replaca: looking
02:41	G0SUB	replaca: OK, how do I convert a StringReader to an InputStream?
02:45	replaca	G0SUB: are you trying to read from the string or from the HTTP result?
02:45	G0SUB	replaca: yes
02:45	G0SUB	replaca: http result.
02:45	replaca	if you're getting zip back, you can't change it to a string cause it won't really be one
02:45	LauJensen	(slurp* url)
02:46	replaca	you'll have to get it as a byte stream from the http request
02:48	replaca	instead of calling slurp, just do (reader url) and pass the result to ZipInputStream and I think you'll be good to go
02:48	G0SUB	replaca: thanks. I am using c.c.http-agent, btw.
02:51	replaca	G0SUB: well http-agent has a stream function right on it: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/http.agent-api.html#clojure.contrib.http.agent/stream
02:51	G0SUB	replaca: yeah, I think that should work.
02:52	G0SUB	replaca: thanks for the tips. I am really a Java n00b.
03:04	replaca	G0SUB: np.
03:09	G0SUB	replaca: I need a bit of help in writing a fn which reads a zip file from a stream and return an outputstream of uncompressed data.
03:25	replaca	G0SUB: so you absolutely need an inputstream? (an outputstream would be going back the other way)
03:25	replaca	or do you just need data?
03:26	G0SUB	replaca: If I get the unzipped data as a string, I am fine. the zip file will have only one file in it.
03:30	replaca	You're basically going to have to loop on that .read method in ZipInputStream and build up a stream
03:30	replaca	the part I'm not remembering now is how you decode the bytes into a String
03:30	G0SUB	hmm
03:31	replaca	I would just use loop..recur on the .read and then use (apply str (map bytes-to-str acc)))
03:32	replaca	where acc is the vector of read results from your loop and bytes-to-str is the func that converts the byte array to the string
03:32	replaca	I'd help more, but I really have to crash
03:32	G0SUB	replaca: how should I write bytes-to-str?
03:32	G0SUB	replaca: no problem. thanks a lot.
03:33	G0SUB	ah, (String. byte-array) works
03:34	replaca	Yeah, that should be OK as long s you don't try to run it in japan or anything
03:34	G0SUB	hehe
03:34	replaca	it'll barf if there's a difference between where you are and what you're reading
03:35	G0SUB	right, but my data is just ASCII
03:35	replaca	ok, I've given you the tools. Let me know how it goes!
03:35	replaca	yeah, you should be ok
03:35	G0SUB	replaca: yep. many thanks :)
03:35	replaca	goodnight!
04:11	Raynes	the-kenny: Ping.
04:40	lypanov	does running the AOT provide me with information such as misspelt function names in definitions that are called elsewhere like java does?
04:41	lypanov	(as in, i have a method C() and three callers Cx() does AOT fail during compile as it can't find Cx()?)
04:41	lypanov	s/three callers/& call/
04:42	Chousuke	method? you mean java method?
04:43	lypanov	Chousuke: both clojure "methods" defs.
04:43	LauJensen	lypanov: AOT compile to regular java class files, so for clojure functions you get that those kinds of errors
04:43	Chousuke	the compiler will complain if you refer to nonexisting vars or classes, but not methods. They are resolved at runtime using reflection (unless you use type hints)
04:43	lypanov	ah, cool. thx LauJensen!
04:43	lypanov	eep.
04:44	lypanov	maybe clojure is the wrong language for getting gwt going with :)
04:44	lypanov	(am trying to decide between clojure and scala)
04:44	Chousuke	,(foo 3) ; should fail during compile-time
04:44	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
04:44	lypanov	but i guess the dynamicness of clojure makes that impossible
04:44	Chousuke	what exactly is the problem?
04:45	lypanov	Chousuke: is the reflection path also taken when using AOT?
04:45	Chousuke	yes.
04:46	lypanov	if so, and thats part of the basics of clojure.
04:46	lypanov	i can't imagine that its possible to generate java that gwt will accept.
04:46	lypanov	as reflection is not allowed by gwt.
04:46	Chousuke	if you do (.someMethod x), you don't know the type of x
04:46	Chousuke	so it needs reflection
04:46	Chousuke	but you can avoid it with type-hinting, like (.someMethod #^MyClass x)
04:46	lypanov	nod and without type hinting it can't name mangle etc
04:48	Chousuke	Clojure has a var called warn-on-reflection that you can bind to true before evaluation
04:48	Chousuke	you can make code entirely non-reflective using that.
04:49	Chousuke	type hints are threaded through forms so usually you don't need them everywhere.
04:50	LauJensen	lypanov: try adding this to your main (set! warn-on-reflection true) and then compile. That'll give you a list of every single expression which needs a type-hint to rid the reflection
05:29	Raynes	the-kenny: ping-number-2.
07:00	lypanov	anyone around know the internals of clojure?
07:00	lypanov	LauJensen / anyone else: how feasible do you think it is to generate java from clojure?
07:01	lypanov	assuming i add type hints everywhere.
07:01	lypanov	are there other dispatch types that java can't deal with?
07:01	LauJensen	Clojure compiles to bytecode, seamlessly integrated on the JVM - Its no problem
07:02	lypanov	LauJensen: i should add background, i'd like to generate java source, which is the input gwt needs.
07:02	LauJensen	Ah sorry
07:02	LauJensen	At present I think you'd be happier in Java for that purpose :)
07:02	lypanov	yes, but this is a long term project.
07:03	lypanov	and the project tech, is the project. if you know what i mean.
07:03	lypanov	trying to decide between scala or clojure as the source lang i use.
07:03	LauJensen	If you have some time I recommend producing a small prototype in both languages, then compare experience
07:23	lypanov	LauJensen: good idea. can't think of what exactly i should prototype though.
07:23	lypanov	will learn more about clojure and give that some good thinking.
07:24	lypanov	still not convinced that i'm looking for a dyn lang. more of a compiles-moan sorta guy.
07:25	lypanov	(ruby from '99 till '04, then paid work forced a shift to java and i did ruby only in spare time, just made shift to ruby again for commercial work and realllly see the downsides to dyn and thinking more of scala)
07:25	lypanov	(maybe its just that ruby sucks rather than dyn sucks)
07:34	LauJensen	lypanov: I had a fun (but dangerous thought), what if you wrote Clojure, compiled to bytecode and decompiled into Java (http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Java/Development_Tools/Translators/Decompilers_and_Disassemblers/) ?
07:35	the-kenny	LauJensen: I tried that
07:35	lypanov	LauJensen: at least scala generates much bytecode that can't be decompiled.
07:35	the-kenny	It's almost readable, but good for searching for performance issues
07:35	lypanov	i guess its the same with clojure.
07:35	LauJensen	the-kenny: In this case it doesn't need to be readable, just passable to gwt
07:36	the-kenny	LauJensen: hm.. it uses much RT etc. I don't know if this would work
07:37	LauJensen	This discussion would probably be easier with c-in-c in place and Chouser or rhickey weighing in
07:37	LauJensen	forget 'possibly'
07:38	lypanov	c in c?
07:39	LauJensen	Clojure is being implemented in Clojure, so all you have to do is provide a bootstrap and compile to any language you want
07:41	lypanov	its now in java?
07:42	lypanov	minimalistic bootstrapping is teh hard :)
07:42	lypanov	maybe when chouser/rhickey are back they can weigh in.
07:42	lypanov	i'm 100% certain many people are interested in this.
07:54	Raynes	the-kenny: Did you ever figure out the error you were getting in Slime when you tried to require something?
08:01	rhickey	lypanov: what do yuo want to do with the generated Java?
08:03	lypanov	rhickey: as input to gwt.
08:03	lypanov	we're currently ruby/backend java/frontend. which is irritating. i'm slowly moving towards x/{backend,frontend}
08:03	rhickey	lypanov: you'd still run the risk of the GWT converter balking at something
08:03	lypanov	there is a scala -> gwt project already, but its very primitive.
08:04	lypanov	rhickey: it depends what is generated. at least for scala its very hard as some generated bytecodes have no java equiv. eg throwing exceptions without a throws declaration.
08:05	lypanov	and it has tail call opts, which use jumps. so this requires lots of fixups to the ast.
08:05	lypanov	if clojure was easier / better matched, itwould make it a lot easier than doing the same for scala.
08:05	rhickey	lypanov: the lack of goto is definitely a problem with generating Java source
08:05	lypanov	otoh, clojure has the dyn side of things.
08:06	rhickey	lypanov: the dynamic aspect can go away with AOT and type hints
08:06	lypanov	rhickey: ast tree manips and break/continue usage fixes that, just lots of boring special case tree manip.
08:07	rhickey	lypanov: yes, and for Clojure that only occurs with recur
08:07	lypanov	rhickey: i'd like to have a unit tests -> produce type hinting.
08:07	lypanov	to remove even the need for manual type hinting in actual source.
08:07	AWizzArd	what is bad about manual type hinting?
08:08	defn	all that reading! and typing!
08:08	AWizzArd	It's okay when the editor can hide/unhide the types.
08:08	AWizzArd	Typing.. it takes just a few seconds. This is not what reduces the productivity of a good programmer.
08:08	defn	i was kidding, for the record...
08:09	AWizzArd	Reducing the complexity of multithreading is where Clojure helps. Typing #^String does not make me unproductive. Working with locks does.
08:10	AWizzArd	Type inference is okay, but in that case we would need a function (get-inferred-type #'foo) which our editors can use.
08:11	lypanov	AWizzArd: thx for the input. type annotation scares me much less now.
08:17	Licenser	types are so much typeing?
08:18	Raynes	Typing is so much typing.
08:28	chouser	lypanov: I did once try to run the Java parts of Clojure through the gwt compiler.
08:28	chouser	I did so hoping to get PersistentHashMap in JS without hand-translating it.
08:29	chouser	but it really didn't go well at all. I don't remeber everything gwt complained about, but it was enough that I spent a couple weeks translating the collection classes by hand instead.
08:32	LauJensen	chouser: isnt this the case where c-in-c would really give lypanov some mileage?
08:33	chouser	only if there were a Java source back-end, and only if it produced Java source that gwt liked.
08:33	Chousuke	c-in-c will solve all your problems and cure cancer.
08:34	lypanov	chouser: depending on how much i can get to like clojure, i'm open to writing that.
08:34	lypanov	is there a better beginners doc than http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html ?
08:35	djork	lypanov: I can bet you will like it very much
08:35	lypanov	i'm enjoying it :) but in case my research into things to read was flawed, prefer to ask.
08:35	djork	lypanov: it's a good article
08:35	djork	but I would also recommend just reading the docs, as they detail most of the corners of the language very succinctly
08:35	cemerick	I pine for a clojure-friendly gwt. Regular web development sucks.
08:36	djork	I am trying to grok compojure right now
08:36	lypanov	cemerick: you do devel in which fallback is required, or interested in something pure clojure?
08:37	cemerick	lypanov: fallback?
08:37	cemerick	djork: The docs are sparse (and scattered), but it's a nice little framework.
08:37	lypanov	cemerick: ajaxless version for ie6 / noscript lovers
08:37	cemerick	(as long as you stay away from the sexpr html generation, IMO)
08:37	cemerick	lypanov: no, I could care less about that.
08:37	lypanov	cemerick: heard of pure.js?
08:37	cemerick	nope
08:38	lypanov	http://beebole.com/pure/
08:38	lypanov	we're using it here. with jquery.
08:39	lypanov	it allows me to shove the designers html/css tarballs on line and make my code just hammer them into working functional apps.
08:39	lypanov	now i'd just like to replace the js i'm currently doing that with, with clojure.
08:39	djork	cemerick: you're using Enlive, right?
08:40	cemerick	lypanov: eh, I'm not too concerned with separating js from html
08:40	cemerick	djork: yes, badly
08:40	cemerick	there's a ton of capability there, but I haven't grokked it yet (esp. template/snippet composition)
08:40	lypanov	cemerick: well, my concern is more separation of js/html from code.
08:41	lypanov	as in, data vs pretty.
08:41	djork	yeah
08:41	djork	hah
08:41	djork	Enlive is really an amazing idea, I'm not sure if it's new or what
08:41	lypanov	ah
08:41	lypanov	its the same idea
08:41	djork	it kind of turns the template idea on its head
08:41	lypanov	someone just released the same thing for rails also.
08:41	lypanov	glad this is at last catching on
08:42	djork	I don't really see anything about "selector-based templating" in Google
08:42	cemerick	lypanov: yeah, looks like pure is the same as enlive, but driven by js
08:42	djork	except for enlive
08:42	lypanov	djork: gimme asec
08:42	cemerick	which means I immediately don't like it ;-)
08:42	djork	heh
08:42	djork	ah, pure.js yeah I think I've seen that around
08:43	lypanov	djork / cemerick: http://github.com/jferris/effigy
08:44	cemerick	nice
08:44	djork	yay
08:44	djork	yeah, templating languages suck primarily because they make editing such a hassle
08:44	lypanov	nod
08:44	djork	they break syntax highlighting and structured editing
08:45	djork	I was really thrilled to find Enlive because I am trying to build a web dev environment for the iPhone.
08:45	djork	And editing anything but well-structured HTML is nearly impossible with the approach I am taking...
08:45	lypanov	after doing non paired devel for 2 weeks with a designer i finally gave up and started to rewrite everything to use pure.js
08:45	lypanov	productivity soared
08:45	djork	yeah
08:46	lypanov	ability to replace that js would a nice lang would just make it all so much nicer
08:46	djork	no more <%= @f.x { \|y\| y.bar } %>
08:46	LauJensen	lypanov: Had a look at Clojure script?
08:47	djork	scriptjure?
08:47	djork	OK I have 10 minutes (self-imposed) to get compojure and enlive working
08:47	lypanov	reading.
08:47	lypanov	djork: i think he refers to http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-contrib/tree/7ea70da82e42416864e2f97e3d314aced34af682/clojurescript
08:48	lypanov	is that the one LauJensen?
08:48	cemerick	totally, totally OT, but: does it seem like a good idea to others that dates formatted for storage as strings should be converted to UTC (to avoid oddball daylight savings time rules, etc)?
08:48	LauJensen	lypanov: I think you'll find it under Chouser
08:48	lypanov	ah, another one. hehe
08:48	Licenser	Okay people :) I
08:48	Licenser	#v
08:48	LauJensen	djork: I have a screencast showing you how to get going with Compojure+ClojureQL in about 10 minz, and another one showing of Enlive (2 actually)
08:48	Licenser	argh
08:48	esj	cemererick: is what I do.
08:49	djork	oh yeah? I'd love to see them
08:49	LauJensen	Then head over to www.bestinclass.dk -> click blog
08:49	lypanov	LauJensen: wantttttttt
08:50	lypanov	s/ed/ing/
08:50	djork	cemerick: absolutely, every time
08:50	djork	there's no other way to store dates as strings as far as I am concerned
08:50	cemerick	OK, good to know.
08:50	Licenser	I've a question, I'm working on a bit game stuff in clojure and have the folowing situation, I've a 'game'-struct that holds all the unit structs. each update function gets the game and and 'id' for the unit passed to do the stuff with it it should do. Now I come to the points where the units should become 'inteligent' but passing every AI script the entire game map to update it sounds a bit of a overkill for me or is that a good idea?
08:50	cemerick	I've never really had to deal with dates before where I cared much.
08:51	djork	Licenser: passing a large object is never a problem because it's really passing a reference to that large object
08:51	djork	internally
08:51	lypanov	um. who is chouser on http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/network ?
08:51	Licenser	djork: I know it's not a memory problem but just a thing of well niceness
08:51	djork	but generally, in functional programming, you want to pass everything a function needs to know about to it directly
08:52	djork	another thing to consider is having AI functions that return the action that they think should happen
08:52	Licenser	If I have somehting like: (recharge-battery game unit-id engine-id ammount) I kind of feel it gets crouded
08:52	Licenser	while it keeps nice and functional
08:52	djork	they take the game state, look at it, and say "move this here, move that there"
08:52	djork	but without actually mutating the game state
08:53	spariev	Licenser: have you seen this paper http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1176617.1176630
08:53	djork	that's really not too bad Licenser, and you can create macros and closures around things to keep it slim
08:53	Licenser	spariev: no
08:53	Licenser	nods Also I am not compfora
08:53	djork	but that argument list looks totally sane
08:54	cemerick	lypanov: chouser is here :-)
08:54	Licenser	compfortable with allowing the AI to mutate the entire game - so I like the idea of returning 'what should happen' stuff
08:54	lypanov	cemerick: aye, saw him earlier just wondering based on LauJensen's reply where i can find his github fork
08:55	spariev	Licenser: not sure it's relevant to your problem, but it describes interesting patterns regarding to game ai imho
08:55	djork	"udvikling" is such a funny word to my English-speaking eyes :)
08:55	Chousuke	Licenser: you might be able to use a global binding to provide a read-only view of the game state
08:55	lypanov	duh... that would be Chouser with a C
08:55	djork	what does it mean, literally?
08:56	Chousuke	Licenser: eg (def game) then a macro (with-game-view @some-ref-holding-the-actual-state (charge-battery ...) ...)
08:56	Licenser	Chousuke: that is a good idea
08:56	Chousuke	though as usual, you'll need to be careful if you do threading
08:56	chouser	lypanov: you're looking for clojurescript? Did you find it? I'm afraid it's rather out of date now
08:57	lypanov	chouser: i found the repl but chrome doesn't like that at all.
08:57	lypanov	chouser: just reading your c-in-c post. whats the status on that out of interest?
08:57	Licenser	hmm yea it is kind of complicated. So far (since all functions are internal and 'trusted') it is kind of easy I just pass them the game and the stuff they should change and the y do
08:58	djork	Licenser: in my very limited MUD game dev in Clojure I've found that passing the game state around is a good thing
08:58	Licenser	djork: nods
08:59	chouser	lypanov: ongoing. "master" branch of clojure has perhaps 90% of the features required for cinc.
09:00	Raynes	Yay! I think I got clj-apache-http into a reasonable state now. No more libs included in the github repo, and no more nasty ant build files. :D
09:00	Raynes	And no more namespace with about 37 dots in it. :<
09:00	chouser	lypanov: huh, clojurescipt.n01se.net works fine for me in chromium on ubuntu. I'm a bit surprised -- haven't tried it in ages.
09:00	Licenser	what makes it kind of complicated that it's not going to be a actual game but should be kind of a library for simulating game combats
09:00	Raynes	Why do people do that anyway? Do people really enjoy typing org.this.that.overhere.overthere.overtherainbow?
09:02	LauJensen	Licenser: I wrapped JMonkeyEngine a while ago
09:02	chouser	Raynes: it's recommended by the Java docs, and guarantees no namespace clashes
09:03	cemerick	...and is totally ignored by a lot of java libs :-/
09:03	Raynes	chouser: But this isn't a Java application. :\|
09:03	cemerick	sorry, s/java/clojure
09:03	Chousuke	you should have at least two segments in your namespace, anyway :/
09:04	Licenser	ah LauJensen not a graphics library just something to calculate events, outcomes and things
09:04	cemerick	Raynes: distinct namespaces are good. 50 different libs claiming the "http-client" ns (or whatever) would not be good.
09:04	LauJensen	Licenser: JME is vast
09:04	djork	I like my namespace to be the name of the project
09:04	Chousuke	yeah. namespaces allow for better naming overall.
09:05	Raynes	I changed the ns to cljapachehttp. It was like 5 segments long. I suppose I can add another segment.
09:05	Licenser	I trust you but I want my own LauJensen :P
09:05	djork	naming an ns after the github project is close enough to unique for most purposes :)
09:05	djork	unless you want to use two forks at once
09:05	djork	:P
09:05	Chousuke	it's not like you need to type the full org.whatever.foo very often
09:05	Raynes	I've just seen lots of projects where the ns was just the project name, so I figured that was a good option.
09:06	chouser	Raynes: there are definitely some people advocating that
09:06	chouser	I'm not fully convinced either way.
09:06	Raynes	chouser: Leiningen does it, so I figured it would be good.
09:06	Chousuke	Raynes: I think it causes problems in some cases, because the class for the namespace will end up in the default package
09:06	djork	hmm
09:07	cemerick	It's a bad path to take, on all but the most superficial criteria.
09:08	Raynes	I suppose I'll add another segment or two, but what it was originally was a bit obscene.
09:08	Licenser	well thank you all for the input I'll play around a bit more :)
09:08	chouser	cemerick: technomancy has argued that it has cause major upheaval when the maintenance of a lib has moved from one "site" to another, requiring all users of the lib to switch from org.foo.magiclib to com.bar.magiclib
09:09	Chousuke	chouser: well, that's not really needed :P
09:09	chouser	my response to that was -- if it's actually the same lib, why not leave the name alone?
09:09	chouser	Chousuke: right
09:09	cemerick	chouser: that's a good point, but choosing a proper ns is totally orthogonal to having a useful ns to begin with.
09:11	chouser	so far I haven't named many public non-contrib clojure libs. But for example, I'm insufficiently arrogant to claim "clojure-jna" as a top-level name, so I'm happy I didn't have to come up with something more creative and could just call it net.n01se.clojure-jna
09:11	Chousuke	if you have more than two segments it'll also be easier to differentiate forks.
09:11	Chousuke	which might not be needed that often, but it's an advantage nonetheless
09:15	Raynes	I'll also point out that the original namespace didn't really make much sense in the first place, which is one of the reasons I changed it.
09:17	chouser	Raynes: fwiw, it's taken me many many months to be acclimated to the deep and nearly-empty directory trees required by java and clojure for projects named this way.
09:17	chouser	I guess I am used to it now though. ...doesn't anger me the way it did once. :-)
09:18	Raynes	chouser: That is annoying, but it's the name that didn't really make sense.
09:18	cemerick	If you're managing a large and diverse codebase (or interrelated set of codebases), it's simply the only way to cope. We end up having 3-6 segments depending on the project, etc.
09:21	Raynes	I changed it back to what it was originally. I guess the author owns the twinql.com domain. That was what had me a little confused.
09:25	Raynes	I'm just trying to get clojure-twitter and all of it's dependencies fixed up and on clojars. Going good so far.
09:27	djork	for(Object o=null;;o=new Object[]{o});
09:27	chouser	djork: ew
09:27	djork	crashes the JVM in a very inelegant way
09:28	djork	not graceful
09:28	djork	:) just for fun (saw it on Reddit)
09:28	djork	brb
09:29	chouser	(loop [o nil] (recur (to-array [o])))
09:29	chouser	there, much better.
09:31	cemerick	Raynes: don't let us push you around any :-) If you think it needs a different ns, that's your call.
09:32	Raynes	cemerick: Naw. It's the authors call. ;)
09:32	cemerick	Raynes: sounded like you were forking
09:32	jcromartie	all of you professionals use your real names :)
09:33	Raynes	cemerick: I am.
09:33	cemerick	Raynes: then whether a new ns is used is your call, IMO
09:33	Raynes	It's better that it keeps it's old name anyway. I imagine there is some code out there using this besides clj-oauth (which I'll be migrating to leiningen as well)
09:34	Raynes	Good point, but still, this way people don't have to change their code if they pull it off clojars.
09:35	Raynes	Plus, you guys have given a good argument for multi-segmented namespaces.
09:37	spariev	why could code like (pmap #(* % %) (range 0 10)) work fine in lein repl, but throw java.util.concurrent.RejectedExecutionException in slime when connected to lein swank server ?
09:37	spariev	i'm using 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT
09:38	spariev	here's full commands for swank / repl as seen in ps - http://pastebin.com/m65144fcc
09:39	spariev	(clojure-version) shows "1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT" in both cases
09:41	bpattison	I need to call a Java function that takes a double array, how do I great a double array of a given size in clojure?
09:41	bpattison	double[] adfGeoTransform = new double[6];
09:41	bpattison	poDataset.GetGeoTransform(adfGeoTransform);
09:42	mjt0229	does that method modify the array as a side-effect?
09:42	the-kenny	bpattison: double-array should be the function
09:42	mjt0229	I was wondering recently how Clojure handles Java interop for java methods that have side-effects.
09:43	the-kenny	,(double-array [1 2 3])
09:43	clojurebot	#<double[] [D@1669fc6>
09:43	Chousuke	,(make-array Double/TYPE 6)
09:43	clojurebot	#<double[] [D@2fab89>
09:43	bpattison	the-kenny: excellent. thanks!
09:43	{newbie}	What do you guys think about point free clojure?
09:43	the-kenny	mjt0229: "Normal" Java datatypes are mutable like in every java program
09:43	mjt0229	Oh, of course.
09:44	Chousuke	{newbie}: useful sometimes, but not as idiomatic as in haskell.
09:44	mjt0229	I ran across an API that expects me to pass in an empty Set, which it would fill on my behalf with the information that I wanted.
09:44	{newbie}	Chousuke: isn't point free a bit bad for someone who want to profile
09:45	mjt0229	I guess the point is that you can pass in a sorted set or a hash set, depending on what you're interested in.
09:45	{newbie}	each "method" individuali?
09:45	Chousuke	{newbie}: may be? I don't know.
09:45	{newbie}	individually?
09:45	mjt0229	But I wouldn't do it that way, at least not without returning the set after I was done with it.
09:45	Chousuke	mjt0229: you can't pass in one of the persistent set types though.
09:45	Chousuke	mjt0229: since they don't support mutation
09:46	mjt0229	Right, it would have to be (.fill obj (HashSet.))
09:46	Chousuke	yeah.
09:46	mjt0229	Well, that doesn't retain a reference, but you get the idea.
09:46	the-kenny	(let [myset (HashSet.)] (.fill obj myset) myset) would work :)
09:46	mjt0229	indeed.
09:46	Raynes	the-kenny: Did you ever figure out that error you were getting with swank around the first whenever you tried to use/require something?
09:46	the-kenny	Raynes: Yes
09:47	the-kenny	It had something to do with my init-file
09:47	the-kenny	after I removed it, everything worked fine
09:47	Chousuke	or even better, finish it with (set myset) to get a persistent set :)
09:47	the-kenny	(the only thing it modified was some vars
09:48	Raynes	the-kenny: Just asking because I had the same problem earlier and asked on the mailing list. It has something to do with warn-on-reflecting being set to true. Setting it to false fixes it.
09:48	the-kenny	Raynes: Yeah, that was one of the vars I was setting
09:48	Raynes	reflection*
09:48	the-kenny	A very very strange error
09:49	Raynes	the-kenny: I believe somebody has figured out the cause of the error. Hopefully.
09:51	Raynes	http://github.com/ztellman/swank-clojure/commit/1f79e9312650bb41b541d8c601382ac22900939c
09:53	the-kenny	uhh that's awesome
09:54	chouser	The MEAP is up, so you can read the first 4 chapters, plus more as we write them. http://joyofclojure.com/
09:57	chouser	rhickey: did Manning not contact you for technical review?
09:58	rhickey	chouser: nope
09:58	chouser	hmph. That's silly.
10:03	cemerick	this is funny: http://github.com/Scriptor/pharen
10:06	jcromartie	hah
10:07	jcromartie	obligatory mention: http://github.com/jcromartie/objclj
10:07	jcromartie	needs some love
10:07	jcromartie	and maybe a better name
10:08	cemerick	insanity :-)
10:09	cburroughs	chouser, Yesterday you suggested I use LinkedBlockingQueue and ThreadPoolExecutor instead of trying to be overly complicated. I just wanted to let you know it appears to have worked out well
10:10	spariev_	pmap work in slime if run via M-x swank-clojure-project or just M-x slime, only behaving strange in lein swank server
10:10	chouser	cburroughs: great, thanks for the update.
10:11	chouser	jcromartie: cool!
10:13	stuartsierra	~log
10:13	clojurebot	see logs
10:13	stuartsierra	~logs
10:13	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
10:13	chouser	jcromartie: I think someone else has done something similar (without the Objective-C aspirations), though I'm not finding it now.
10:16	defn	jcromartie: pharen is awesome lol
10:16	jcromartie	defn: I guess so? Why are you telling me? :P
10:16	rhickey	'maenadic' - fancy
10:16	stuartsierra	Returning from yesterday; double-argument dispatch with protocols http://paste.lisp.org/+2015
10:16	jcromartie	but yes pharen looks awesome
10:16	stuartsierra	rhickey: is that what we you talking about Tuesday evening?
10:17	defn	defmacro: you posted the link
10:17	defn	err jcromartie you posted the link
10:18	jcromartie	I pasted a link to my own lisp-to-C project, cemerick pasted pharen
10:18	defn	ah, my mistake
10:18	defn	what's the lisp-to-C named?
10:19	cemerick	I wouldn't say awesome...scary is more like it.
10:19	cemerick	IMO, of course :-)
10:19	defn	cemerick: i think we're all on the same page there
10:19	defn	it's novel and cool though
10:20	cemerick	novel, for sure. Perhaps I'm feeling curmudgenly today.
10:20	defn	i know i am
10:22	chouser	I hadn't considered it before, but ... a PHP backend for cinc might actually be pretty popular.
10:22	stuartsierra	does PHP have bytecode?
10:22	chouser	beats me
10:24	cemerick	that's the whole point of zend, right? Have a JIT in the background to speed things up?
10:24	jcromartie	I had a friend that tried to convince me that Perl was bytecode-compiled and ran on a VM
10:25	chouser	jcromartie: perl6? :-)
10:25	jcromartie	his argument was that any interpreted language that is parsed into a tree structure and run by an interpreter counts as bytecode and a vm, where the C data structures are "bytecode"
10:25	jcromartie	yeah
10:26	chouser	oh, I see. "compiled" and "vm" maybe, but to me bytecode implies serialized.
10:26	jcromartie	http://php.net/manual/en/book.bcompiler.php
10:28	rhickey	stuartsierra: kind of. I think the complex-parts protocol complicates things - it's ok to just have implementation-aware code use :r and :i, and to not try to normalize other numbers as complexes. Also, putting add-number and add-complex into the same protocol implies a closed-ness that doesn't exist - you could instead have adding-long and adding-complex etc protocols, obviously an open set
10:30	rhickey	stuartsierra: but yes, the fundamental trick is (add anX aY) -> (add-X aY anX)
10:30	chouser	I need to read that, but I did something probably similar for finger trees
10:32	chouser	appending one tree on another requires different code for each combination of node/deepnode
10:33	rhickey	protocols let you do double-dispatch without the type-intrusion of the visitor pattern
10:34	rhickey	chouser: chapter 2 is a doozy
10:34	stuartsierra	rhickey: Cool, thanks. I was playing with several ideas at once, that's how complex-parts got in there.
10:34	chouser	rhickey: :-/ yeah. I think it's going to get trimmed back a bit before we're done.
10:34	stuartsierra	And I was thinking that adding-* should be separate protocols.
10:35	rhickey	chouser: I'm sure what-goes-where will be more evident when you have all of your material in hand
10:36	rhickey	i have to admit the early infix example made me cringe a bit
10:38	chouser	at our current rate for pages-per-section, we'll overshoot our page goal by quite a bit. Hopefully that means will be able to toss out all the least valuable content and end up with something very solid.
10:38	cemerick	rhickey: on the php project page, you mean?
10:38	rhickey	cemerick: no, in Joy of Clojure
10:39	cemerick	oh, right
10:39	lypanov	chouser: do you think i should wait on the js conversion project until you get to 99% c-in-c or should i get into it now in case its needed to shape c-in-c?
10:39	chouser	lypanov: what are your plans for a js conversion project?
10:40	lypanov	chouser: basically, plug clojure via java source gen into gwt.
10:41	Raynes	user> (two + 2) => 4
10:41	Raynes	:D
10:41	Raynes	I def'd two as + and unmapped +.
10:41	Raynes	:>
10:41	spariev_	oh, I have finally fixed my error with pmap - turned out I used old 1.0.0 version of lein-swank, and new 1.1.0 works just fine
10:46	chouser	lypanov: it will be much easier to reach a useful stable state after cinc, but I expect some things could be done now to get there sooner.
10:48	chouser	lypanov: for example, it would be interesting to have a maps-and-vectors version of Clojure's compiler analysis tree (AST?)
10:49	chouser	if you could build such a thing that rhickey signed off on, then you could start work on code to convert that to java sources, code that you ought to be able to drop in to cinc once it's all done.
10:59	mjt0229	What's the proper type hint for an array? appending a '[]' doesn't appear to work.
11:00	chouser	depends a bit. what type of object is in the array?
11:01	mjt0229	Let's assume its a Java object, not a primitive.
11:01	mjt0229	It's an object defined in a Java library, whose api returns (inexplicably) an array rather than a list.
11:01	chouser	#^objects
11:02	chouser	oh. if it's being returned to you, why do you need to hint it?
11:02	mjt0229	I'm binding it in a let form to a name.
11:03	chouser	you only need a hint if you're going to use it in a way that can take advantage of that hint
11:04	angerman	Ohh as we are on the Array thing. That usually has that strange [D... or so look. How much would it break if clojure would internally translate Object[] into the correct type-hint?
11:04	mjt0229	I've set warn-on-reflection and my access via aget is reflecting. I think I can restructure the loop so I don't need to use aget.
11:04	mjt0229	yeah, in Java it looks like [LString, I think.
11:06	chouser	mjt0229: 'aget' itself should require reflection. You might need to hint what 'aget' returns.
11:06	mjt0229	ah.
11:07	chouser	"shouldn't"
11:07	mjt0229	that indeed does appear to be where the reflection is occurring, but there wasn't a binding there, so I didn't know how to place a type hint in that form (it's just a few nested calls)
11:07	defn	mmm partition -- mutually exclusive and exhaustive
11:08	chouser	#^String (aget a x) ; should work
11:08	chouser	mjt0229: if you're playing with type hints, you might find repl-utils expression-info helpful.
11:09	chouser	(expression-info '(let [a #^ints map] (aget a 1))) ;=> {:class int, :primitive? true}
11:09	mjt0229	Cool, I'll take a look.
11:09	chouser	(expression-info '(let [a #^"[Ljava.lang.String;" map] (aget a 1))) ;=> {:class java.lang.Object, :primitive? false}
11:09	mjt0229	So, you can place type hints alongside any method invocation?
11:10	mjt0229	ie, (println #^String (first ["foo" "bar"]))
11:10	mjt0229	that's not a great example, but I'm just trying to show the syntax in a little context
11:11	chouser	yes but with a pile of caveats. :-)
11:11	mjt0229	for what it's worth, I was using a counting loop over the array, but I was able to switch it to a simple list comprehension and get the type hints correct.
11:11	mjt0229	Which has improved the readability of the code, not surprisingly.
11:12	chouser	:-)
11:19	Raynes	I'll probably have to wait until the first of the month for any loose cash. :\
11:22	chouser	Raynes: Manning runs deals occsionally, sometimes as much as half-off. When they tell us they're going to do that, I generally remember to tweet it.
11:22	lypanov	LauJensen: (i speak dutch, so... yeah, irony). man.... my wife won't let me use clojure anymore as your page says it gives 10-25x more "fart" :(
11:22	Raynes	chouser: Cool. I'll follow you.
11:24	Raynes	Two?
11:24	LauJensen	hehe
11:24	LauJensen	lypanov: I didn't know that the woman where in control in Holland :)
11:25	lypanov	LauJensen: she vetoed my request for more power.
11:25	LauJensen	haha
11:25	chouser	Raynes: there's also http://tinyurl.com/clojureinaction
11:26	Raynes	Oh dear.
11:26	jcromartie	Clojure Inaction
11:26	lypanov	but inaction only has 3 chaps and joy has 4. so joy is obviously superior.
11:26	jcromartie	sounds demotivating
11:26	lypanov	hehe
11:26	jcromartie	I've had quite a good amount of Clojure inaction lately.
11:27	Raynes	lypanov: Joy also looks like it is going to cover more than the other one.
11:27	lypanov	i'll prob just end up buying both, in action has some neat sounding sections on hadoop.
11:27	Raynes	Such as protocols and types.
11:27	lypanov	Raynes: aye, in action is more practical.
11:28	lypanov	i usually use such books as ref and bed side reading so for me all depends on writing style. as in, how fast i can read it without interruptions stopping me.
11:28	Raynes	I'll get Joy first, because chouser is awesome, and get Luke and this guys book eventually.
11:29	chouser	I expect "in action" to be larger and have more examples relating to specific kinds of deployments (testing, IDEs, web sites, amazon services)
11:30	Raynes	chouser: Are you trying to accomplish something specific with Joy?
11:31	chouser	"joy" is meant to be more about understanding clojure itself in more detail. not so much how it works internally, but how best to use it and hopefully bring the reader along to be able to think about problems in a more clojurey way.
11:32	lypanov	(also, i'm really picky, and 99% of the time i end up not using the libs that are the most popular)
11:32	Raynes	chouser: Yessir, your book is definitely for me.
11:32	{newbie}	so wich books is more focused in the innerwards of clojure?
11:33	Raynes	Damn people and their fancy lib directories full of jars on github.
11:33	mjt0229	ooh, more clojure books?
11:34	Raynes	Luke's book will be coming out before the rest of them.
11:35	lypanov	Raynes: which is that?
11:35	Raynes	lypanov: It's on apress.
11:35	chouser	{newbie}: I don't know of a book that plans to cover the internals.
11:35	Raynes	http://www.apress.com/book/view/9781430272311
11:35	Raynes	It's a whole other book.
11:35	chouser	{newbie}: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html has a lot of detail about the innards of the STM
11:36	lisppaste8	stuartsierra pasted "Automated 2-argument type dispatch with protocols" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93387
11:36	stuartsierra	Phew!
11:36	stuartsierra	I did it!
11:36	chouser	{newbie}: for innards of PersistentVector, try http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/
11:37	{newbie}	chouser: that last link was good
11:37	{newbie}	the previous one ins't very detailed
11:37	{newbie}	thought
11:38	chouser	stuartsierra: whoa
11:38	angerman	interesting. lein swank does not add the classes folder to the classpath
11:38	angerman	:/
11:38	{newbie}	here is the deal the compiler/interpreter classes at my univ where optional, and I choose another option so where i'm realy lacking is in hte parsin compilation front
11:39	dysinger	stuartsierra what's needed for rsync for the maven repo ?
11:39	dysinger	(IE, do we need an rsync server set up )
11:39	dysinger	do you have an RTFM doc pointer ?
11:39	stuartsierra	dysinger: I think all you need is SSH access and an rsync client on the server
11:40	stuartsierra	let me find the link
11:40	dysinger	k
11:40	dysinger	I know you can rsync with ssh
11:40	dysinger	but you can also rsync with rsync:// without giving someone a login on your box
11:40	stuartsierra	Here's one post describing what to do: http://vafer.org/blog/20081026142413
11:41	stuartsierra	here's the Maven docs: http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-central-repository-upload.html
11:42	stuartsierra	looks like Maven needs a user account set up with their public key
11:42	dysinger	I see
11:42	dysinger	ok that looks easy enough I'll get it done today
11:42	stuartsierra	great!
11:43	stuartsierra	But back to the fun stuff - double dispatch!
11:44	mjt0229	stuartsierra: which version of clojure provides deftype? Is it not in 1.1?
11:46	chouser	mjt0229: master branch from github
11:46	mjt0229	thanks.
11:46	mjt0229	I've got some reading to do, it looks like.
11:47	stuartsierra	I don't know if this is worth the trouble. I just wanted to see if it was possible.
11:47	stuartsierra	In theory, I suppose one could extend it to more than 2 arguments, but the mind boggles.
11:47	chouser	stuartsierra: very interesting
11:50	chouser	that is indeed very much like what I did (by hand) for app3: http://tinyurl.com/ylx4j3k/finger_tree.clj#LID288
11:50	chouser	I'm trying to think if I could use your macros...
11:52	chouser	the problem being that I've alrady got protocols with other methods, the double-dispatch is just for one of the methods.
11:52	stuartsierra	Have you rewritten the finger-trees with deftype and defprotocol?
11:53	chouser	oh, yeah, that was an older version.
11:54	chouser	and the api for deftype has changed since I converted it over
11:55	chouser	http://tinyurl.com/yeh5fgg/finger_tree.clj#LID343
11:55	dabd	it would be nice if the if-let macro let the user refer to the binding in the 'else' part. Is there any reason this is not possible?
11:55	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #93387 "Removed some dead code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93387#1
11:56	chouser	dabd: you want to know if it was nil vs. false?
11:56	dabd	chouser: no, I want to use the value of the test in the else part too
11:57	chouser	in the else part, the value of the test could only have been either nil or false.
11:57	stuartsierra	I'm not sure if it works for non-commutative functions.
11:57	stuartsierra	At least, you have to be very careful.
11:58	chouser	stuartsierra: ah, app3 is not commutative, so yes the args are sometimes in reverse order and must be handled carefully.
11:59	stuartsierra	I wonder if I can fix that?
12:00	dabd	yes you are right I am misusing the macro. the test should return a boolean and I was trying to make it return a numeric value.
12:00	stuartsierra	yes!
12:01	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #93387 "Fix argument order" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93387#2
12:02	stuartsierra	That works for non-commutative functions as well.
12:11	stuartsierra	You wouldn't want to do this for 3 arguments anyway - you'd need too many methods
12:14	stuartsierra	2^3 for two types, 3^3 for three types, 4^3 for four types, ...
12:24	Raynes	Why oh why did this guy have to add his lib directory and all of his project's dependencies to his repo on the initial commit.
12:35	stuartsierra	Because everyone's afraid of Maven.
12:37	Raynes	stuartsierra: I just went through hell trying to remove stuff from the initial commit. Took me 2 hours to figure out how to do it. You do it by looking up the answer on stackoverflow.com.
12:37	Raynes	:>
12:42	polypus	what's the deal with AOT compilation and namespaces. i seem to remember somebody in here say something about them having to be at least binary (foo.bar) in order to compile. is that right?
12:43	wilig	technomancy: Ok, I have some working code for swank-clojure that fixes that bug at least in my simple tests.
12:43	mtm	chouser: Congrats on getting the MEAP up; I know it's probably ridiculous to ask, but are there any "coupon codes" for 'The Joy of Clojure' yet?
12:44	technomancy	wilig: wow; great
12:44	technomancy	can you use read-line in the slime-repl buffer?
12:44	wilig	technomancy: hmm, explain what you mean? sorry, I'm really green.
12:46	technomancy	wilig: currently entering (read-line) in the slime-repl hangs it since the I/O streams for that buffer are not hooked up quite right
12:46	stuartsierra	polypus: I think that's correct; namespaces need 2 parts
12:46	technomancy	I think this is related to the bug you were talking about, but I'm not 100% sure
12:46	wilig	ah, let me try
12:46	polypus	stuartsierra: ty
12:47	chouser	mtm: none that I know of -- will tweet as I hear of them.
12:47	wilig	technomancy: Still hangs, let me have a look at it.
12:47	technomancy	wilig: must be something else then... thanks for looking into it!
12:47	technomancy	what did you end up changing?
12:48	wilig	io.clj right where you said it would be.
12:48	mtm	chouser: no problem, thanks (as an aside I find it amusing that Manning has free shipping for orders > $45; 'The Joy of Clojure' is $44.99) ;-)
12:48	polypus	mtm: same happened to me the other day with snow leopard on amazon. 1 cent off
12:49	wilig	the clojure.contrib.sql tries to call println on the proxied object, but was failing. so I created an interface, and added that to the proxy
12:49	wilig	so sql exceptions now get reported correctly.
12:50	polypus	so i ended up buying an ssd to make up the diff :)
12:51	wilig	technomancy: I also rewrote call-on-flush-stream to call-on-write stream and was able to get rid of the scary threading bit. Hopefully it will work for all cases, but I don't know enough to test it rigorously.
12:53	chouser	mtm: one benefit of working with a publisher: I don't have to defend such decisions. :-)
12:54	mtm	chouser: I would have gladly overpaid by $0.02, it's just the generous kind of guy I am
12:55	chouser	I didn't even know what they were going to charge until it showed up on their site.
12:55	technomancy	chouser: they let you work in your own document format?
12:55	technomancy	I've heard of authors writing for manning in the past that had to use MS Word; that shocked me.
12:55	tcrayford	chouser: do you want feedback on ze book?
12:55	mtm	well, the book is ordered; now, get cracking on the next chapter! :-D
12:56	chouser	technomancy: I guess they've used Word in the past, but now they've also got a docbook-like format. So we've built a toolchain that produces that xml.
12:57	technomancy	nice
12:57	chouser	mtm: yessir!
12:57	technomancy	I guess the prags use docbook too; makes sense
12:57	chouser	tcrayford: of course!
12:57	tcrayford	I'm finding one of the paragraphs annoyingly written (end of page 8)
12:57	tcrayford	the one talking about concurrency and idioms
12:59	chouser	tcrayford: noted
13:00	tcrayford	I can rewrite it if you want
13:01	chouser	heh... Well the first couple chapters are already getting major rework. Thanks anyway.
13:01	tcrayford	aye
13:01	mtm	chouser: do you want minor editorial comments (grammar, case, etc.) posted to the author forum, sent by email, or noted here?
13:02	chouser	mtm: the forum is probably the best, though I think the whole book will go through a couple more rounds of review an editing for that kind of error before it goes to print.
13:02	chouser	review and editing
13:03	chouser	all comments are welcome
13:03	chouser	...especially comments that contradict other comments, because then we can just do whatever we want. ;-)
13:05	chouser	37% off with code "j1337"
13:08	technomancy	"Take this REPL, brother, and may it serve you well." always makes me feel like coding is an adventure.
13:08	tcrayford	it feels like the start of a choose your own adventure book
13:09	technomancy	or like you just got the Master Sword in Zelda
13:09	Mefached	Lisp is an adventure
13:10	Mefached	It's an interesting language, unlike C-likes
13:10	tcrayford	I'd dispute the idea that interesting programming comes from the language
13:10	tcrayford	Its like saying interesting gardening comes from a good lawnmower
13:11	gregh	there could still be an interesting lawnmower, though
13:12	qbg	tcrayford: Then Lisp is like having a mecha for a lawnmower.
13:12	hiredman	the language is not just a single tool
13:12	hiredman	it is a set of tools
13:13	tcrayford	and what you think in
13:13	tcrayford	and a religion
13:13	hiredman	anyone who actual works with tools can tell you the end product relies a lot on the tools used
13:14	hiredman	e.g. a square cut with a hand saw is harder than with a chop saw
13:14	hiredman	and there are also techniques and opinions too
13:15	hiredman	the bookkeeper were I work is into woodworking, he would rather die than use a metal fastener of any kind
13:15	hiredman	just does all kinds of joints
13:16	chouser	and a lisp is different from many other language types because it gives you a wider range to tool-making tools
13:16	tcrayford	Which can be more interesting
13:18	Raynes	tcrayford: That gardening metaphor needs work. :\
13:18	tcrayford	yeah :(
13:19	Raynes	Besides that, there are some really cool lawn mowers out there. :>
13:19	tcrayford	was kinda implying that lisp was a really cool lawn mower
13:20	Raynes	Indeed. Lisp would be a lawnmower transformer.
13:20	Raynes	Optimus Macro.
13:27	LauJensen1	Raynes: Are you what is commonly referred to as a 'redneck' ?
13:27	Raynes	LauJensen1: No. My family is from the north. I hardly even have an accent.
13:28	LauJensen1	Ok
13:29	wilig	technomancy: Trying to add read-line support to swank-clojure, but there is nothing currently as far as I can tell. Here's to mucking things you don't understand!
13:29	technomancy	wilig: that's been my entire strategy so far with swank-clojure
13:29	technomancy	apparently it used to work (over a year ago)
13:30	wilig	lol
13:30	wilig	hmm, troubling. then I just don't understand what's going on it here. wish I had the working version.
13:30	wilig	*in here
13:32	wilig	woot! just got it to fail where I expected it to. on the first try no less. progress. :-)
13:32	technomancy	I'm cheering for you
13:33	wilig	I'm so in the blind. Wondering what the heck #^ means.
13:34	technomancy	it's a type hint for the following form
13:34	Raynes	technomancy: Thanks for telling me about interactive rebasing. I never would have thought to get rid of the lib files from history. I'm new to gi.
13:34	wilig	ah
13:34	Raynes	git*
13:35	technomancy	Raynes: see also: http://alexvollmer.com/index.php/2009/01/18/meet-magit/
13:35	wilig	so now to impersonate a bufferedreader
13:37	technomancy	wilig: fyi: swank-clojure uses a lot more type hints than necessary
13:37	technomancy	don't feel the need to be that explicit in your own additions
13:37	wilig	great! and I plan to add a test or three.
13:39	wilig	technomancy: is there some significance to returning {:tag StringWriter}? Does :tag have some meaning I'm unaware of?
13:41	technomancy	it's not actually a return value; it tells the compiler that the function is going to return an object of a certain type
13:41	technomancy	the return value is the form immediately preceeding that
13:41	technomancy	if the type hints are getting in the way don't be shy about ripping them out
13:41	wilig	Ah, now that is enlightening
13:42	wilig	will do, just nice to understand what the heck it means.
13:42	technomancy	I highly doubt they were added only to performance hotspots as they should be; they seem to be sprinkled liberally all over the place
13:43	hiredman	it's hard to imagine slime having performance hotspots
13:43	technomancy	that too =)
13:43	chouser	I was just about to say something to that effect.
13:44	technomancy	swank-clojure is a prime example of "my first clojure project" that was just too useful not to become widely used. every language has 'em. (cough rdoc)
13:46	technomancy	not to knock jochu; I'm really grateful for his work
13:47	hiredman	he is apparently writing another reader
13:48	technomancy	isn't that joshuachoi?
13:49	hiredman	ok, there was a j and a ch
13:50	kotarak	Wasn't Chousuke writing something up about a reader? He has at least a working syntax-quote in Clojure.
13:50	bpattison	I'm calling a Java method from Clojure that a JNI wrapper to a C function. It takes a single argument, which is an array of double of size 1. I'm assuming that's a JNI thing. If I invoke the routine in Java it works fine, but when I try to invoke it in Clojure is get exception aoubt boxArgs
13:50	bpattison	at java.lang.Class.cast(Class.java:2990)
13:50	bpattison	at clojure.lang.Reflector.boxArg(Reflector.java:364)
13:50	bpattison	at clojure.lang.Reflector.boxArgs(Reflector.java:396)
13:51	bpattison	any ideas to try?
13:51	hiredman	that is not the whole exception, feel free to pastebin it somewhere
13:53	Chousuke	kotarak: Actually I ran into so many corner cases in the macro version that I decided to take the same "reader magic" approach as the current reader does.
13:54	bpattison	here's the complete exception http://pastebin.com/m6fe684dd
13:54	bpattison	but I'm not sure its all that helpful
13:59	chouser	bpattison: what the your line of clojure code look like that's doing the interop call?
14:02	Mefached	will someone send me their ~/.clj_completions ? I can't get this script from the wiki to generate it. easyegoism@gmail.com
14:04	Mefached	Nevermind, I got it to work
14:05	bpattison	chouser: (let [minv (make-array Double/TYPE 1)] (.GetMinimum band minv)) where band is a Java JNI class
14:09	chouser	bpattison: class cast error suggests that .GetMinimum is expecting a different type than what its getting. You're clearly giving it a array of primitive doubles, so perhaps its expecting something else.
14:10	chouser	bpattison: does your version of clojure have double-array ?
14:11	chouser	if you use that instead of make-array, and also type hint 'band' if it isn't already, the exception should show you the name of the class it's actually expecting.
14:11	bpattison	chouser: yep, I'm running 1.1.0-alpha -- should upgrade to the new release -- but here's the java code that works Double[] min = new Double[1]; poBand.GetMinimum(min);
14:11	chouser	ah!
14:11	chouser	that's an array of boxed (not primitive) doubles
14:12	chouser	try just Double instead of Double/TYPE in your make-array
14:13	bpattison	chouser: woo hoo. that worked like a champ -- would have never figured that one out
14:14	cemerick	cgrand: I've been pondering http://groups.google.com/group/enlive-clj/browse_frm/thread/f9a9f280110d6d2f and it looks like the "functional" approach you outline there will work for us. Does that remain the ideal approach?
14:17	Raynes	clj-oauth is now on zeh clojars!
14:17	Raynes	One more project to go.
14:18	LauJensen	How many people would dred using a library which required you to add 5 items to your classpath to work on/with it ?
14:18	cemerick	LauJensen: that's why some of us are beating the maven horse :-)
14:19	konr	does it really matter if I compile or eval my code (slime-eval-defun vs slime-compile-defun) while developing it?
14:20	Chousuke	konr: they probably do the same thing.
14:20	Chousuke	since Clojure has no interpreter.
14:20	technomancy	konr: the distinction is leftover from common lisp; in clojure they should have the same effect
14:22	tcrayford	chouser: liking the infix example at the start of your book. Had never thought about doing that
14:23	chouser	heh. great. :-)
14:25	tcrayford	though maybe put the operators in proper BDMAS order [/ * + -]
14:25	cgrand	cemerick: yep, that's still the way I promote
14:25	qbg	If I have a loop that concat's and next's on a seq but the total length of the seq never grows large, am I at risk of running out of memory?
14:26	Raynes	LauJensen: That is exactly why I'm moving these projects to leiningen. ;)
14:27	LauJensen	Raynes: I'm not talking about when compiled, but about when you fork it etc to hack on it
14:27	Raynes	LauJensen: Still doesn't really matter. If it's Leiningen, and you use swank-clojure-project, you never have to deal with those 5 items directly.
14:27	chouser	tcrayford: I guess that would be [- + * /]
14:27	arohner	qbg: probably not. the real determination of whether you run out of memory is whether you hold the head somewhere
14:28	tcrayford	technomancy: is it just me, or does disconnecting from swank-clojure mean you can't reconnect?
14:28	tcrayford	chouser: the way you've defined it there, yes
14:28	cgrand	cemerick: I'll wrote some examples as soon as I have more time
14:28	qbg	Good, then I should be able to TCO my DSL I'm writing.
14:29	Raynes	LauJensen: But I suppose that applies to Maven as well.
14:30	cemerick	cgrand: The alternative where one (for example) defines specific element classes that are going to get plucked and dropped into matching slots in a parent template is intriguing. I suspect something like this will be needed eventually -- I worry about managing that composition manually.
14:31	Raynes	LauJensen: If I don't reply to your next message, it's not because I'm ignoring you. It's because I wont be here in about 13 seconds.
14:31	LauJensen	Ok- thanks for sharing your opinion
14:33	polypus	i have a list of namespace names each of which contains a single (def specs ...). i'd like to get a list containing the values of each specs. what's the best way?
14:36	polypus	in file a i have (ns a) (def specs ...) in file b the same. i have '[a b c ...]. i'd like a list of specs by going (map f '[a b...])
14:36	stuartsierra	(map (fn [namespace] (ns-resolve namespace "specs") list-of-names))
14:36	stuartsierra	or something like that
14:37	polypus	ty, i'll have a look
14:37	stuartsierra	(map (fn [ns-symbol] (ns-resolve ns-symbol 'specs)) list-of-symbols)
14:38	polypus	stuart: thx that's it
14:39	ordnungswidrig	oauth? nice!
14:44	Mefached	I can't get M-x slime to bring up Clojure in Emacs. I followed the instructions at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Getting_Started and my .emacs is http://pastebin.com/m6e10a365
14:45	arohner	I have a big nested data structure (maps and vectors). I want to run a function f on every child node, and return the "updated" structure. Is there a better function to use than for + update-in?
14:45	arohner	I want something that does a walk + update-in
14:47	stuartsierra	arohner: clojure.walk does that
14:48	arohner	stuartsierra: interesting. though that seems like a big hammer, and I'd have to distinguish between the nodes I want to change and the nodes I don't
14:48	stuartsierra	The function you pass to pre/postwalk has to have a conditional then
14:49	stuartsierra	You could also copy the style of walk with more conditions to avoid walking the nodes you don't need to change.
14:51	arohner	hrm. in my ideal world, I want a function that I can pass some kind of "x-path" like spec and a function. distinguishing between nodes seems messy.
14:51	arohner	(update-in-many [:a :b * :foo] f)
14:51	stuartsierra	arohner: that would be cool, but I don't think it exists. clojure.zip might help
14:52	arohner	I might write it...
14:53	arohner	stuartsierra: thanks for the help
14:53	hiredman	that soulds awful familiar
14:53	hiredman	sounds
14:53	hiredman	I think there was talking about some kind of wildcard update-in
14:55	hiredman	I think it floundered on the "how to represent wildcards" issue
14:55	arohner	does clojure.zip handle maps?
14:55	hiredman	* is a symbol that could resolve to something, :* could be a key
14:56	hiredman	arohner: it can
14:57	hiredman	I would be surprised if there where by default
14:58	hiredman	the "mapping" of a map to a zipper has no, uh, default? immediate? obviouse solution?
14:58	hiredman	it depends on the domain of the maps
14:58	hiredman	like xml-zip
14:58	hiredman	ah
14:59	hiredman	the "mapping" of a map to a zipper has no obvious domain
15:00	arohner	k. I'll make this work the ugly way, then see if I can come up with an update-in-many that makes sense
15:03	stuartsierra	rhickey: When/how will protocols take over clojure.core?
15:04	ordnungswidrig	take over?
15:04	arohner	ordnungswidrig: the whole point of rhickey building protocols was to rewrite the clojure compiler / core in terms of them
15:05	lypanov	chouser: should i use the manning forum for stylistic corrections? (aka, smoother reading)
15:06	chouser	lypanov: sure, thanks!
15:06	konr	wow @ http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081120.html
15:06	technomancy	konr: stuart halloway added that to swank-clojure so it's built-in now
15:07	rhickey	stuartsierra: after we get enough feedback on stand-alone implementations of protocols, we can look at moving some of the core abstractions to protocols. But - we need to avoid breaking changes for Java (and Clojure) clients extending the current abstraction interfaces. I think there will be a new protocol (with its new interface) and extension to existing interface
15:08	stuartsierra	rhickey: So you don't plan on major breaking changes in, say, 2010?
15:08	rhickey	did I say that?
15:08	lpetit	hello, there
15:08	rhickey	lpetit: hi
15:09	rhickey	stuartsierra: it depends on how far we get. but it would be with a major (2.0-ish) release
15:09	hiredman	the main effect on core.clj seems like it mostly be changing tests for implementing certain interfaces to tests for protocols
15:09	stuartsierra	rhickey: This is for purposes of the book.
15:10	rhickey	stuartsierra: which book?
15:10	stuartsierra	rhickey: Ok, 2.0, that's what I wanted to know.
15:10	stuartsierra	rhickey: the one that I am theoretically writing with Luke.
15:10	rhickey	ah
15:11	stuartsierra	hiredman: It's more than that. Imagine if 'map' is a protocol. Then you can implement a 'map' specific to strings, arrays, maps, etcetera.
15:11	rhickey	arohner: a broader goal is really to support, in Clojure, the kinds of things I needed to do to write Clojure itself, such things being useful in general
15:12	Raynes	Protocols are awesome. I missed typeclasses.
15:13	rhickey	heh
15:13	hiredman	stuartsierra: I don't believe map would be a protocol
15:14	hiredman	seq would be a protocol, and map operates on seqs
15:15	rhickey	there would be a protocol for the map data abstraction
15:15	hiredman	rhickey: a protocol for map the noun, yes?
15:16	rhickey	hiredman: right, but map the verb would still be a fn on seqs
15:17	rhickey	there could be a polymorphic mapping fn, but it wouldn't be map, that contract specifies seqs, laziness etc. It can't start returning Strings when given Strings
15:17	hiredman	making the core seq processing functions into extendable protocols (leaving out the implicit seq transformation) would completely change the language
15:18	rhickey	hiredman: not really, the polymorphism is already there for most of those. While there are some manually-handled types, I haven't gotten a request for a new manual handler in over a year
15:19	rhickey	it is just a move from interfaces for polymorphism to protocols
15:19	rhickey	hiredman: or maybe I misunderstood you
15:19	rhickey	you mean map/filter etc?
15:19	lpetit	rhickey: just sent my donation through paypal. No pb to add my name on the donators page
15:19	hiredman	rhickey: the sequence processing functions are at the core of the user experience of the language
15:19	hiredman	rhickey: ys
15:19	rhickey	lpetit: thanks!
15:20	lpetit	rhickey: now would you go to ccw's "donate" page and submit the form ? :-p
15:20	lpetit	rhickey: just joking, of course :)
15:21	rhickey	I often get asked about Eclipse support
15:21	Raynes	lpetit: You need to add auto-indentation already. ;)
15:21	lpetit	Raynes: ok ok, I know that, and you're right. Don't remember, though : "help welcome" :-)
15:22	Raynes	:p
15:22	lpetit	Raynes: I'm currently working on a port of paredit for ccw. Already have been able to code, on my free time, open-round, open-curly, open-square
15:22	Raynes	Neato.
15:24	lpetit	rhickey: I don't publish news about ccw releases each time I make one on the ml. I will certainly do when I feel a gap has been filled in some areas (auto-indentation, paredit, faster code completion). Since I know your time is counted, I invite you to only spare it on ccw when you see news about it from me in the ml.
15:24	stuartsierra	rhickey: what about things like first/second? Could there be an "ordinals" protocol?
15:25	rhickey	I think I have a bias against Eclipse - I've never liked it for Java
15:25	rhickey	stuartsierra: other than the one for nth?
15:26	stuartsierra	rhickey: Maybe that would be enough. I was thinking about tuples
15:26	rhickey	I'd certainly concentrate on replacing the existing interfaces before new inventions
15:26	stuartsierra	ok, fair enough
15:26	rhickey	stuartsierra: tuples are specialized vectors
15:26	rhickey	would satisfy same set of protocols
15:26	stuartsierra	ok
15:27	stuartsierra	So basically, anything currently implemented as RT/foo or an interface is a good candidate for a protocol.
15:28	rhickey	stuartsierra: interfaces first
15:28	hiredman	anything in a .java file
15:28	stuartsierra	ok
15:28	stuartsierra	thansk
15:29	rhickey	42 interfaces in clojure.lang
15:29	stuartsierra	wow, I didn't realize it was that many
15:29	rhickey	Clojure really is abstraction-based
15:30	stuartsierra	I count 47 by grep.
15:31	{newbie}	I frear that clojure is becoming an OO language
15:31	_fogus	rhickey: pre-cambrian == pre-defmacro?
15:31	stuartsierra	{newbie}: not at all; it's becoming something better
15:31	{newbie}	ppl will start writing java in clojure
15:31	stuartsierra	they try to do that anyway
15:31	rhickey	{newbie}: not by any common definition of OO
15:31	Chousuke	Yeah, I think we'll see an explosion of inappropriate deftype use at first :/
15:32	{newbie}	rhickey: but the new deftype looks alot like an object
15:32	Chousuke	until people figure out how it really should be used.
15:32	rhickey	except immutable
15:32	rhickey	and no concrete derivation
15:32	rhickey	no statics
15:32	{newbie}	okay
15:32	rhickey	no ctor bodies
15:32	rhickey	etc
15:33	hiredman	general usage deftype should be without methods all together, yes?
15:33	stuartsierra	yes
15:33	Raynes	Somebody should write a blog post on how it should be used, along with protocols.
15:33	rhickey	hiredman: in-place protocol impls are fine
15:34	rhickey	whenever the type defininer knows they need to support a protocol, that will be fastest
15:34	lypanov	chouser: wonderful book. inaction lost me on the 3rd page.
15:34	rhickey	extend when you are not the type owner and can't convince them :)
15:35	stuartsierra	rhickey: Really? deftype with protocol impl's inlined is faster?
15:35	ordnungswidrig	lol googling for "rainbow emacs" gives me: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2urqmgl&s=6
15:35	rhickey	stuartsierra: yes
15:35	stuartsierra	interesting
15:35	the-kenny	ordnungswidrig: Looks like the url isn't working
15:35	stuartsierra	worked for em
15:36	ordnungswidrig	the-kenny: works for me?!
15:36	the-kenny	ordnungswidrig: Ah, sorry. Bug in my weechat plugin for detecting urls
15:36	lypanov	rhickey: silly random q, do you think clojure refactoring tools could ever rock?
15:36	ordnungswidrig	anyway, does anybody know how to _get_ emacs rainbow parens?
15:37	rhickey	lypanov: some refactorings, yes. Unlike a lot of dynlangs, in a Clojure ns every name has only one mapping, so rename can work. I think IntelliJ already does this well
15:38	stuartsierra	rhickey: by the way, did you see my generalized 2-arg-dispatch-protocol macro?
15:38	rhickey	stuartsierra: yes - very cool!
15:38	hiredman	ordnungswidrig: http://delicious.com/search?p=rainbow&chk=&context=userposts\|clojurebot&fr=del_icio_us&lc=0
15:38	stuartsierra	rhickey: thanks
15:39	lypanov	rhickey: (one of the first things that made me even look at clojure was the fact that you noted that you used idea)
15:39	lpetit	stuartsierra: where is it please ?
15:40	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: thanks. would you mind to update the second link on del? The final period brakes the url
15:40	stuartsierra	lpetit: http://paste.lisp.org/+2023/1
15:41	lpetit	rhickey: a correct "rename" refactoring would have to know about aliases, wouldn't it ?
15:41	rhickey	lpetit: yes
15:41	rhickey	but doable
15:41	lpetit	rhickey: so not so easy to make it bullet proof. aliases could be created under the hood via macros ..
15:42	rhickey	lpetit: right, macros can do things no static analysis can ever see
15:42	lypanov	it could still warn on textual matches.
15:43	lypanov	(with heuristics)
15:43	lpetit	sure, but my point is, it will never allow the same degree of confidence java refactoring tools provide, and thus, I doubt one will use it as extensively as e.g. with java, where aggressive refactoring is quite usual
15:44	lypanov	i've never worked on a java codebase that didn't require some level of understanding of implication when doing refactors.
15:45	lpetit	stuartsierra: I was getting confused by the name defdouble, and then the example on numbers :-)
15:45	stuartsierra	oh yeah, hadn't thought of that
15:45	stuartsierra	Didn't know what to call it, really.
15:46	stuartsierra	defprotocol2? defdoubleprotocol? def-2arg-generic?
15:46	lpetit	lypanov: when seeing a new codebase, it's really common for me to to rename refactorings as I read the code, with total confidence, improving the codebase by the way (at least I hope so! :-) )
15:47	Raynes	stuartsierra: defstuartsierrawroteaneatdoubleargdispatchprotocolmacro
15:47	lpetit	stuartsierra: defbiproto :-p
15:49	stuartsierra	defbi
15:49	stuartsierra	addbi, extendbi
15:49	Raynes	Is there any information anywhere that explains when deftype/defprotocol should be used, and why?
15:49	lpetit	is it not too connoted ?
15:49	stuartsierra	there's some notes on the assembly wiki
15:50	stuartsierra	lpetit: that was a joke, mostly
15:50	lpetit	ok, so it's like in French :)
15:50	Raynes	Not what I'm really aiming at.
15:51	rhickey	Raynes: want to write a fn like seq - use a protocol
15:51	Raynes	Nobody has really written any real world examples yet. Of course, chouser will be doing so in his book.
15:51	rhickey	want to use defstruct - use deftype
15:51	stuartsierra	I wrote some conceptual stuff; at http://stuartsierra.com/2009/12/14/objects-are-not-adts
15:52	lpetit	stuartsierra: could it be even more generalized to an arbitrary number of n first args dispatch ?N
15:53	stuartsierra	lpetit: I thought about that, and my mind boggled.
15:53	lypanov	lpetit: i work in web world. where code references eg js / html. or custom sql. or whatever.
15:53	stuartsierra	Just think, for 3-arg dispatch on N types you need N^3 methods.
15:54	lpetit	stuartsierra: multimethods use :default for that, no ?
15:54	rhickey	stuartsierra: don't solve problems you don't have
15:54	lpetit	arg, no, no default impl for protocols so far
15:54	stuartsierra	:)
15:54	lpetit	rhickey: just brainstorming :)
15:54	rhickey	lpetit: Object works as a default for all but nil
15:54	lpetit	rhickey: oh yes, remember now, thx
15:55	stuartsierra	And I couldn't think of a case where you would actually need 3-argument dispatch.
15:55	rhickey	and you can extend protocols to nil
15:55	polypus	btw, to anybody reading stuartsierra's post. liskov did a talk at oopsla recently which you can view at infoq
15:56	stuartsierra	polypus: got a link?
15:56	polypus	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/liskov-power-of-abstraction
15:56	stuartsierra	polypus: thanks
15:56	lpetit	lypanov: don't understand
15:56	polypus	ss: np
15:59	stuartsierra	polypus: added link to the post
16:01	polypus	cool
16:02	lypanov	lpetit: sorry, busy here. point was, i've never worked on a project before in which i could reliably do refactors without knowing something. but sounds wonderful ;)
16:04	lpetit	lypanov: ok, sorry, had switched subject in the mean time :)
16:11	arohner	lisppaste8: url
16:11	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
16:13	lisppaste8	arohner pasted "what do you think of update-in-many?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93406
16:13	arohner	I think this is pretty cool.
16:14	stuartsierra	nice
16:14	stuartsierra	loses some type information, e.g. vectors become seqs
16:14	arohner	oh right. I can add an into
16:14	stuartsierra	just be careful with lists - they conj backwards
16:17	arohner	that sounds like another function
16:17	arohner	type-preserving map
16:17	stuartsierra	Sean Devlin posted "same" on the list, but that's a heavyweight version.
16:18	stuartsierra	You only need a handful of tests - clojure.walk shows which ones
16:18	chouser	hm, maybe just a fn that does (into (empty ...)), but reverses the result if its a list
16:18	stuartsierra	that ... should ... work
16:19	stuartsierra	If you don't have to handle MapEntry's
16:20	stuartsierra	(let [x (into (empty y))] (if (list? x) (reverse x) x))
16:21	hiredman	or just switch to cons if it is a list
16:21	chouser	,(class (cons 1 '(2 3)))
16:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
16:21	chouser	,(class (empty (cons 1 '(2 3))))
16:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
16:21	chouser	huh
16:21	stuartsierra	cons makes seqs, not lists
16:21	hiredman	,(binding [conj cons] (into () '(1 2 3)))
16:21	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
16:22	hiredman	gar
16:22	hiredman	,(binding [conj (fn [a b] (cons b a))] (into () '(1 2 3)))
16:22	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
16:22	hiredman	:\|
16:22	arohner	stuartsierra: do you have a hint on where to find 'same'? google is failing me
16:22	hiredman	wait
16:22	hiredman	hmm
16:23	hiredman	anyway, I just hate to see that reverse
16:23	stuartsierra	arohner: it was posted to clojure-dev
16:23	chouser	stuartsierra: well, cons makes Cons', but apparently an empty Cons is a EmptyList. :-)
16:24	technomancy	any chance we could get dynamic binding enabled on a whitelist basis rather than for all namespaces starting with "clojure"?
16:24	arohner	oh right, I remember this thread
16:24	hiredman	,(isa? clojure.lang.Cons java.util.List)
16:24	clojurebot	true
16:24	technomancy	is that something for which I should draw up a patch?
16:24	technomancy	sorry--direct binding
16:25	stuartsierra	I thought direct binding was enabled everywhere unless you specifically disabled it?
16:25	hiredman	:(
16:25	technomancy	stuartsierra: from a usage perspective it's enabled everywhere for vars that point to fns in namespaces that start with clojure
16:26	technomancy	but there's no way to turn it off to, say, rebind clojure.test/test-var
16:26	technomancy	which is a problem
16:26	technomancy	less problematically, there's no way to turn it on for namespaces in which you want it (other than naming your namespace "clojure-$FOO")
16:26	technomancy	~ticket #246
16:26	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/ybzjj4e, :summary "direct binding inhibits clojure.test functionality", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2010-01-14T00:35:44+00:00"}
16:27	hiredman	I would rather have opt in than opt out
16:27	stuartsierra	I see
16:27	technomancy	definitely
16:27	stuartsierra	I thought there was a call-site metadata param to turn off direct binding
16:28	hiredman	really?
16:28	technomancy	oh, maybe I'm missing something
16:28	technomancy	that would certainly help
16:28	technomancy	I was just looking in the compiler where isDirect was set
16:28	hiredman	it would be great, if someone who knows about direct binding could write something up on the curret state of same
16:28	rhickey	technomancy: is test-var designed to be rebound?
16:29	ordnungswidrig	What is the best practice for unit tests? I have a separat .clj file which declares the test in the same ns. But now after load-file the files seem to fight for the ns.
16:29	technomancy	rhickey: it's not specifically, though clojure.test/report is
16:29	technomancy	the ns docstring for clojure.test suggests rebinding it
16:29	stuartsierra	clojure.test/report has {:dynamic true} metadata
16:30	rhickey	technomancy: then it is designed to be rebound and can be declared :dynamic true
16:30	hiredman	hmm
16:30	rhickey	there will be other knobs
16:30	technomancy	here's the situation I'm in though: we have some tests that hit the network, and we'd like to skip them for normal test runs and have them be opt-in
16:30	rhickey	TBD
16:31	technomancy	if we could rebind test-var, it's easy
16:32	technomancy	direct binding in clojure.core gets you real measurable production performance increase. direct binding in clojure.test gets you faster tests, which is nice, but in many cases not worth the loss of dynamism.
16:33	technomancy	in our case it gives us much slower tests since we no longer have a way of switching off the tests involving network access
16:34	lisppaste8	lpetit pasted "reinventing the wheel ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93408
16:34	rhickey	technomancy: so the question becomes, should you get that feature by runtime-patching test yourself or adding the toggle capability you want ,to clojure.test
16:34	lpetit	Am I reinventing the wheel with this function ?
16:34	technomancy	rhickey: I just think a whitelist approach to direct binding would be wise
16:35	rhickey	technomancy: who owns the whitelist?
16:35	technomancy	rhickey: since it will now be enabled in things like clojuresque, clojure-http-client, clojure-jna, etc. without the approval of the authors of those libs
16:35	technomancy	rhickey: a better approach would be to use ns-level metadata, but currently ticket #130 means that won't work with AOT'd namespaces. =\
16:35	lisppaste8	arohner pasted "map-same" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93409
16:35	ordnungswidrig	lpetit: how does startslike differ from startsWith?
16:35	technomancy	rhickey: I think even a whitelist that's hardcoded into Compiler.java would work for the present
16:36	technomancy	until #130 is resolved
16:36	lpetit	ordnungswidrig: startsWith implies a full match on the arg, look :
16:36	lpetit	,(.startsWith "b" "bar")
16:36	clojurebot	false
16:36	arohner	interestingly, map-same resolves my need for map-keys and map-vals
16:36	lpetit	where (starts-like "b" "bar") returns true
16:36	rhickey	technomancy: I'm not enamored of the whitelist idea, one persons whitelist might not correspond to another's
16:37	Chousuke	,(.startsWith "bar" "b")
16:37	clojurebot	true
16:37	ordnungswidrig	lpetit: hmm, isn't it simply flip . .startsWith ?
16:37	rhickey	technomancy: but my question still stands - isn't this toggle capability a missing feature of test?
16:37	lpetit	hmmm
16:37	ordnungswidrig	lpetit: say, #(.startsWith %1 %2) ?
16:38	lpetit	,(.startsWith "bar" "bartoldi")
16:38	clojurebot	false
16:38	ordnungswidrig	lpetit: uhm, #(.startsWith %2 %1) I mean
16:38	technomancy	rhickey: sure; I've considered cooking up a patch to clojure.test to implement it there, but I wanted to try it out for a while in our own project to see how it works in practice first.
16:38	lpetit	where (starts-like "bartoldi" "bar") returns true
16:38	Chousuke	,(.startsWith "bartoldi" "bar")
16:38	clojurebot	true
16:38	technomancy	it's certainly not a feature that's too specific to our project
16:38	Chousuke	again, isn't it just the argument order? :)
16:38	lpetit	yes, but I don't want to know how to order the arguments !
16:39	Chousuke	so does (starts-like "bar" "bartoldi") also return true? :/
16:39	arohner	lpetit: so why not sort by length?
16:40	ordnungswidrig	arohner: good point!
16:40	lpetit	Chousuke: sure. I need to go to sleep, or tomorrow I'll have to recode everything I'm doing tonight :-)
16:40	technomancy	I'm really just advocating using direct binding more sparingly for now until it's seen more use and the implications are better-understood.
16:41	technomancy	rhickey: I figured this note in the code was an indication that you felt the same way: //todo - more specific criteria for binding these
16:41	technomancy	=)
16:42	rhickey	technomancy: yes, and direct binding is on in order to flush out use cases like yours. In the absence of knobs, it's easiest to turn it off. But ther eis one knob now, :dynamic true
16:42	ordnungswidrig	lpetit: so "bar" "boo" will also return true? Then its a simple equals on the first letter?
16:42	rhickey	I'm not going to rush to whitelists
16:42	arohner	rhickey: how would you turn off direct binding? re-def'ing?
16:43	technomancy	ok, I guess I can do that with a re-def inside a with-ns call
16:43	rhickey	arohner: could be any of: build flags, ns attributes, declarations, whitelists etc
16:43	arohner	I mean now, in the clojure.test case
16:43	technomancy	assuming using vary-meta to add :dynamic won't work since once it's compiled it's too late
16:44	lpetit	No, I missed a test case : inverting the args will not work for (starts-like "bar and foo" "bar") (which should return true) :
16:44	lpetit	,(.startsWith "bar" "bar and foo")
16:44	clojurebot	false
16:44	rhickey	technomancy: you realize the kind ofthing you are doing is subject to random breakage of other things?
16:44	technomancy	rhickey: well in this case I still call the old version of test-var. I just check a predicate first.
16:45	technomancy	so the chance for breakage is pretty slim
16:45	technomancy	If I were rebinding it to a totally new function that didn't reference the old, then I'd be more worried
16:45	rhickey	technomancy: until someone else does the same thing
16:45	technomancy	sure
16:45	technomancy	I do think this would be better implemented in clojure.test
16:45	rhickey	right
16:45	technomancy	I'd just like to flush it out in my own code first
16:46	rhickey	:dynamic true
16:46	technomancy	yep, will give that a go. thanks.
16:47	rhickey	technomancy: I'm going to try to hold out on turning off dynamic binding in an effort yo flush out more cases like yours, then probably disable until knobs are in place
16:47	rhickey	er, direct binding
16:48	technomancy	sounds good. right after a release _is_ a good time for that kind of thing.
16:48	technomancy	and for the record I like the idea of basing it off ns-level metadata a lot better than a whitelist, it's just not feasible given the AOT-ns-metadata bug right now.
16:50	technomancy	I'll close out that ticket then.
16:57	Mefached	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Getting_Started#Installing_clojure.contrib I built clojure-contrib with ant, but I don't understand what the next line is telling me to do.
16:58	tcrayford	you need to build it with a command line option that has a path to clojure.jar
16:59	tcrayford	oops
16:59	tcrayford	ignore that
16:59	tcrayford	the bit after that is to do with actually launching clojure
16:59	Mefached	I run Clojure in Emacs, not from a command line
17:00	tcrayford	with swank-clojure?
17:00	Mefached	Yes, I believe so
17:00	tcrayford	just change to a directory that's setup right and launch it then (you want your source code in ./src/ and your tests under /test/
17:01	tcrayford	you can ignore the stuff about startup scripts, they aren't needed if you're launching from emacs (or using lein)
17:02	Mefached	OK
17:03	tcrayford	and that article is kinda old/outdated
17:04	tcrayford	check out the readme for swank-clojure on github
17:19	lisppaste8	lpetit annotated #93408 "completed, and now, reinventing the wheel, or not ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93408#1
17:20	Qvintvs	how can I change a seq of chars to a string? ie, (\a \b \c) -> "abc"
17:20	lpetit	so, reinventing a function in java, core or contrib ?
17:20	hiredman	Qvintvs: apply str
17:21	Qvintvs	hiredman: thank you
17:22	chouser	lpetit: there is subs for .substring
17:23	lpetit	(doc subs)
17:23	clojurebot	"([s start] [s start end]); Returns the substring of s beginning at start inclusive, and ending at end (defaults to length of string), exclusive."
17:24	chouser	I don't know of an existing fn that does exactly what you've got there.
17:24	lpetit	chouser: ok, so more java independent.
17:25	lpetit	chouser: I need this for my parser : brute force lookahead, without having to bother whether the string I'm parsing abruptly finishes without knowing if the match is exact. In doubt, say it matches.
17:25	chouser	also saves you from having to hint to avoid reflection, as would 'count' instead of .length
17:25	technomancy	would it be cool if subs counted negative offsets from the end of the string?
17:25	technomancy	I got spoiled by that in Ruby and Elisp
17:26	chouser	python does negative offsets like that too -- liked it in every language that had it.
17:26	chouser	but nothing in clojure does currently, I think?
17:26	technomancy	I patched up subs to do it at one point
17:26	technomancy	can't remember if I submitted a ticket for that
17:27	chouser	maybe nth too. and subvec
17:27	lpetit	would make subs have more substance than just being a simple java wrapper :)
17:27	technomancy	looks like I was a lazy slacker and didn't ticket it =(
17:27	technomancy	chouser: oh, good call
17:28	lpetit	technomancy: to which extent did you patch paredit to be more clojure-aware ?
17:28	chouser	dunno if rhickey would go for it or not.
17:28	technomancy	chouser: dunno about nth though; couldn't that cause unintended realization of lazy seqs?
17:28	chouser	any negative would have to fully realize the lazy seq
17:29	technomancy	lpetit: I just had to teach it to treat [] and {} as pairs; I think that was all there was to it.
17:29	lpetit	technomancy: I mean, when having this "#{ }\|" (with cursor represented by pipe \| at the end), do you end up if trying to delete } with "#\|" or with "" for example ?
17:30	lpetit	technomancy: ok, so eventually paredit.clj will beat paredit on clojure support :-p
17:30	technomancy	lpetit: oh, I see. no, it only deals with paired characters.
17:30	technomancy	lpetit: well you certainly have an advantage; you don't have to use elisp. =)
17:30	technomancy	of course, once I implement a clj-to-elisp compiler, then it won't matter.
17:31	chouser	wouldn't elisp-to-clj be easier?
17:31	lpetit	technomancy: I'm in the process of writing paredit in clojure, for clojure. I make this IDE independent so that eventually everyone can benefit from this.
17:31	technomancy	cool
17:33	technomancy	chouser: well theoretically once clojure is more self-hosted, it would be a lot less work to write a new compiler target for. elisp is pretty huge in comparison.
17:33	polypus	lpetit: verry nice
17:34	lpetit	technomancy: I've rather quickly stopped trying a elisp-to-clojure direct port of paredit.el, too many hooks inside of emacs internals, too many functions with side effects. I finally just copied the commands spec. Currently just have open-* commands, but it's a start :-)
17:34	tolstoy	Is memoize thread-safe?
17:34	hiredman	yes
17:35	technomancy	lpetit: sounds wise
17:35	tolstoy	Er, hm.
17:35	jcromartie	tolstoy: everything is thread safe as long as it's pure clojure
17:35	jcromartie	other Java classes can't be guaranteed to be thread safe though
17:35	tolstoy	Ah, okay. the (doc memoize) didn't say much, but I can see that. Oops! ;)
17:35	lpetit	technomancy: yes. Then back to coding, I need to handle the case of literal chars I've forgotten in the process :-)
17:37	tolstoy	jcromartie: Yes, I mess myself up because I'm creating a cache of complied schemas, thus the self-confusion.
17:38	chouser	jcromartie: almost. there are a few gems like super-proxy that are not thread safe
17:38	jcromartie	oh really? I haven't heard of it
17:38	jcromartie	how can you make pure clojure code non-thread-safe?
17:39	chouser	er, proxy-super I mean.
17:39	Chousuke	proxy-super is not pure clojure I suppose.
17:39	Chousuke	since it very much sounds like Java interop :P
17:39	jcromartie	yeah
17:39	chouser	well, it's used for java interop
17:40	chouser	but you could make something similarly unsafe using an atom.
17:41	Chousuke	even then, it's at least atomically unsafe :P
17:42	chouser	heh
17:42	arohner	you can always race if you try to do something stupid, like keep two unrelated atoms in sync
18:15	lpetit	is the clojure 'reader' page up to date according to the special literal characters : \newline, \space and \tab ? Any other that could miss ?
18:16	Chousuke	linefeed and... hm.
18:17	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/readerII/src/clj/clojure/reader.clj#L516
18:17	hiredman	"formfeed"
18:19	Chousuke	oh, right
18:19	Chousuke	I always forget them :P
18:23	lpetit	oh yes, so some are missing in the documentation. Thx hiredman
18:29	Mefached	Would copying the "contrib" directory in clojure-contrib/src/ to clojure's own src/ be an effective way to add clojure-contrib? I can't get it to work any other way.
18:32	hiredman	Mefached: because it would put everything in the same place on the classpath
18:43	tcrayford	is there a function to cast a string to a regex?
18:44	hiredman	that is not a cast
18:44	hiredman	a string is not a regex
18:44	tcrayford	:/
18:44	tcrayford	to turn a string into a regex then?
18:44	hiredman	there is a function to create a regex pattern from a regex
18:45	hiredman	(doc re-pattern)
18:45	clojurebot	"([s]); Returns an instance of java.util.regex.Pattern, for use, e.g. in re-matcher."
18:45	tcrayford	already found
18:46	tcrayford	needed the right search term (find-doc "re") ain't exactly helpful
19:46	tolstoy	I wonder why schema validation in the JDK ain't thread safe. Seems kinda, well, unfortunate.
19:46	tolstoy	Maybe the thought is that if you have lots o threads, you're a transaction processor, and you shouldn't be validating (to slow) in the first place.
19:55	ndimiduk	I have a dumb noob question: what undoes (str 'foo) ?
19:55	ndimiduk	so, given a string, return that string as a symbol
19:55	tcrayford	,(str 'foo)
19:55	clojurebot	"foo"
19:55	dabd	what is the most widely used build tool for clojure? maven or leiningen?
19:55	tcrayford	lein is built on top of maven
19:56	ndimiduk	oh wait, there's (symbol "foo")
19:56	tcrayford	,(str (symbol "foo"))
19:56	clojurebot	"foo"
19:56	tcrayford	I like lein, but depends what you want
19:58	dabd	leiningen seems easier to use but lacks detailed documentation. maven is harder to learn but has more documentation
19:59	tcrayford	lein is so damn easy to use, there's barely any need for documentation
19:59	tcrayford	just make sure your dependancies are in project.clj, run lein deps before you do things and you're good
20:01	dabd	yes if i want to learn the syntax of defproject i have to look at the source code since the options are not fully documented
20:01	tcrayford	what options do you need/care about?
20:02	tcrayford	they probably could be better
20:02	dabd	all the options for ex. :dependencies
20:04	tcrayford	as far as I can see you just pass dependancies a vector that's configures in the right way and you'll get your deps (assuming their in the mvn repo or on clojars)
20:06	alexyk	can I break a list to pattern-match like, non-working: (let [[x:xs] [1 2 3]] (print x)) ?
20:07	tcrayford	what are you wanting x to be out of that result?
20:07	alexyk	x is (first s), xs is (rest s)
20:08	alexyk	I wonder how can I mimic haskell/ocaml's breakup on LHS
20:08	tcrayford	you can probably get that from :as
20:08	fanatico	,(let [[x & xs] [1 2 3]] (print x xs))
20:08	clojurebot	1 (2 3)
20:08	tcrayford	ooh, hadn't realised that
20:08	tcrayford	that's nice
20:09	alexyk	great! So when writing a defn which does something for x & xs, and something else for x, and still else-thing for [], can it be separated by arity using this trick?
20:10	fanatico	yup
20:14	alexyk	how do we separate bodies for different arities?
20:15	fanatico	(defn f ([x] ...) ([x y] ...))
20:15	powr-toc	does anyone know how to get "lein repl" to accept arbitrary directories on the classpath, without mavenizing them?
20:16	tcrayford	you can probably hack ground with the lein script itself to get that
20:16	tcrayford	(the bash script)
20:17	powr-toc	tcrayford: yeah... is that a great idea though?
20:17	powr-toc	I'd rather lein itself supported an arbitrary lib option
20:17	fanatico	alexyk: I was wrong about pattern matching differentiating between x and []. You're going to want to start with an (if (seq x) ...)
20:17	tcrayford	por-toc: probably not. I've done it to customize java.library.path
20:18	tcrayford	powr-toc: put an issue on lein's repo then
20:18	powr-toc	tcrayford: yeah, but java.library.path is pretty different to the classpath
20:19	powr-toc	tcrayford: where's the bug tracker? github?
20:19	tcrayford	yep
20:19	tcrayford	at least that's where I'd put issues. Otherwise maybe the google group
20:20	tcrayford	yeah looking at the lein source, you could pretty easily add a $CLASSPATH: onto the front of its classpath definition
20:20	powr-toc	tcrayford: I know... but ideally would it not come from project.clj?
20:21	tcrayford	or that
20:21	alexyk	fanatico: alas, no ocaml emulation just yet :(
20:21	tcrayford	something like a :classpath option
20:21	powr-toc	tcrayford: because as far as I'm concerned project.clj should become the spec for building and running the project, with it's classpath...
20:22	tcrayford	yeah agreed on that
20:22	tcrayford	I'd like project.clj to support library path as well
20:22	tcrayford	it feels pretty bad to be hacking around with a bash script (both for dev and deployment)
20:23	powr-toc	tcrayford: that's my other issue with lein... it has a :library-path option, but I don't think it means java.library.path... but then it doesn't seem to work like classpath either...
20:24	fanatico	alexyk: you might want to look at http://www.brool.com/index.php/pattern-matching-in-clojure
20:24	tcrayford	I think its :library.path option is to change what you usually have under /lib/
20:25	powr-toc	tcrayford: yeah... I know... i was hoping lien would support the various dev, deployment and staging environments you might need, within project.clj
20:26	powr-toc	tcrayford: I think it is too... which seems analagous to a significant part of the runtime classpath.... but it doesn't seem to allow multiple options etc...
20:26	alexyk	fanatico: yes, thankx!
20:26	tcrayford	aye
20:26	tcrayford	I think most of the things I'm doing can be done with swank-clojure from a directory anyway
20:27	tcrayford	and swank-clojure has a set-java-library-path option
20:28	powr-toc	tcrayford: I thought lien would solve my dilema of having to configure a different classpath/clj-shell-script for every project I run within slime and then deployment etc... sadly it doesn't seem to quite fill that hole :-(
20:28	tcrayford	it can if you're doing simple stuff, or your dependancies are all found on clojars/mvn
20:31	powr-toc	tcrayford: that's the problem though... my dependencies are proprietary... and I don't want to have to install them all with maven...
20:31	tcrayford	aye :/
20:32	powr-toc	Sadly I need very explicit control over the classpath :-(
20:32	tcrayford	it's probably not that hard to write a patch for lein that supports :more-classes or summat
20:36	powr-toc	tcrayford: true... except I think add-classpath is deprecated in clojure, and I wouldn't want to force startup of another JVM to kickstart the apps JVM (as commons launcher does)
20:36	powr-toc	and having it in the bash/bat script sucks
20:37	tcrayford	just patch lein and submit the patch then?
20:37	tcrayford	but yeah, java's build stuff is annoying
20:38	powr-toc	tcrayford: I don't have any objection to submitting a patch... I just don't know how best to do what I want
20:38	tcrayford	so try some ideas in git branches
20:41	powr-toc	tcrayford: git branches smanches... my problem is I don't currently know how to go about extending the classpath for lein without screwing with either the bat/sh file (a crap inadequate solution) or getting into java classloader nonsense which is full of lots of wierd stuff...
20:42	tcrayford	aye
20:42	powr-toc	I was hoping someone else, would be more familiar with this than me
20:42	tcrayford	(definitely not me)
20:42	tcrayford	talk to technomancy next time he's on
20:42	powr-toc	otherwise I would've just patched it...
20:42	tcrayford	gotcha
20:42	powr-toc	anyway I've added an issue on github
20:44	powr-toc	it's not that I'm completely ignorant about classpath stuff... it's just I've heard mention that clojure does something odd with the classloaders... which I'm guessing is why (add-classpath was deprecated)... can anyone enlighten me here?
20:44	powr-toc	s/classpath/class-loader/
20:51	alexyk	what's the shortest way to refer to + in (reduce ??? [1 2 3]) to sum the vector?
20:52	tcrayford	(reduce + [1 2 3]) ?
20:52	tomoj	hard to get shorter than that
20:52	alexyk	wow
20:52	alexyk	I thought I need lambdaisms
20:52	tomoj	,+
20:52	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS___4745 clojure.core$_PLUS___4745@16de797>
20:52	alexyk	crysta;-clear
20:52	alexyk	\
20:53	alexyk	meaning crystal-clear)
20:53	tcrayford	I did that a lot a while back, using anonymous functions where I didn't actually need them at all
20:53	tomoj	clojure is a lisp-1 oslt
20:53	tomoj	i.e. you can refer to functions by their names just like any other value
20:53	alexyk	how does the same namespace for functions and values affect the ability to use + as itself?
20:54	tcrayford	give an example useage
20:54	tomoj	in CL I believe it would be something like (reduce #'+ ...)
20:54	alexyk	ah, i.e. lisp-2 is something even more perverse
20:54	tomoj	(except with whatever they call reduce instead)
20:54	alexyk	s/even more// :)
20:55	tomoj	of course this means you have to use clever names sometimes
20:55	tcrayford	add :P
20:55	tomoj	e.g. list is a bad name for a list variable
20:55	tomoj	or seq for a seq
20:55	tcrayford	so use coll for a seq
20:55	tcrayford	iirc
20:56	tcrayford	Programming Clojure has a nice table of variable names
20:56	fanatico	lisp-2 is only really necessary with dynamic scope. if you screw up, it's prety easy to see.
20:56	tomoj	yeah I was about to mention that
20:56	jcromartie	Stuart's article featuring Liskov and CLU is a great read
20:56	tomoj	I should dig that out and paste it somewhere
20:56	tcrayford	already on it
20:56	tomoj	don't we have dynamic scope, though? with vars
20:57	jcromartie	Clojure really is speeding away from Java at an incredible rate.
20:57	tomoj	jcromartie: you mean towards clojure-in-clojure?
20:57	jcromartie	heh
20:57	jcromartie	I mean it was leaps and bounds ahead when 1.0 was ready...
20:58	jcromartie	but protocols and datatypes... wow
20:58	tomoj	ah, yeah
20:58	tcrayford	http://gist.github.com/277709
20:58	tomoj	tcrayford: thanks :)
20:58	fanatico	kinda. let (which is what you'll be using 99% of the time) uses locals, and binding (which uses vars) is only used when you want to affect dynamic scope.
20:58	jcromartie	cinc is interesting but I'm not so sure I'd be using Clojure on other platforms too often
20:58	tomoj	hmm, val is a clobber
20:58	devlinsf	tcrayford: don't forget pred
20:58	tomoj	but the val function is rarely used I guess
20:58	tcrayford	devlinsf that's straight out of the pragprog book
20:59	devlinsf	oh, n/m
20:59	tcrayford	but I'll add that in as well
20:59	jcromartie	I mean Clojure on llvm or CLR would be cool, but Java just has so much stuff going on it's hard to give up the libraries
20:59	tcrayford	(mostly because I'll probably use that as a reference for myself)
20:59	tomoj	jcromartie: yeah it seems like it would split the library community
20:59	devlinsf	jcromartie: ClojureCLR already is in progress
21:00	tcrayford	the thing that I like about cinc is that it means clojure can be written faster
21:00	tomoj	because for any particular library that uses interop, it'd have to be written using your interop
21:00	tcrayford	less farting about with java
21:00	jcromartie	yeah
21:00	tcrayford	and probably more easily modifiable by some people
21:00	tomoj	unless there is a good abstraction over the available interop? seems like a hard thing to do...
21:00	tcrayford	aye
21:01	tcrayford	I think things devved in clj will have to stay on their respective platforms
21:01	jcromartie	that's too bad
21:01	jcromartie	although it might mean more pure-clojure libraries
21:01	jcromartie	which would be great
21:01	tomoj	maybe someday we will have enough of our own stuff that interop is unnecessary :)
21:01	jcromartie	heh maybe
21:01	tomoj	but that means for me writing whole new server libraries etc :/
21:01	jcromartie	then cinc on llvm will be perfect
21:01	tcrayford	might be a loooong time coming them
21:01	jcromartie	yeah
21:02	tcrayford	and I wouldn't be surprised if a better language came out before that point
21:02	tomoj	java's library is currently a great boon
21:02	tomoj	I wonder, what is wrong with haskell? has rhickey ever commented on it? I guess the problem is bad same-process concurrency?
21:02	tcrayford	it has stm
21:03	tcrayford	and no proper mutable state
21:03	tcrayford	iirc
21:03	tomoj	yeah, that's what made be wonder
21:03	tcrayford	not a lisp though
21:03	jcromartie	The problem with Haskell is that I don't know enough math.
21:03	tomoj	ah, yeah
21:03	tomoj	I got the sense that rhickey didn't care a whole lot about static vs. dynamic typing
21:03	tcrayford	though writing a lisp interpreter in haskell is pitifully easy
21:03	tcrayford	~200 lines
21:03	clojurebot	excusez-moi
21:03	tomoj	except maybe haskell's type system is broken?
21:04	jcromartie	the type system is great but it's just not a good environment to build things in
21:04	jcromartie	you can build great rock-solid programs
21:04	tcrayford	and haskell is focussed at not being a practical language
21:04	jcromartie	but they are generally going to be pretty isolated
21:04	jcromartie	it's amazing how long Haskell has been around without catching on
21:04	jcromartie	it's as old as Java
21:04	tcrayford	hey, how old is python
21:04	tomoj	I think the math complaint is relevant
21:04	tomoj	but I like math :D
21:05	tcrayford	monads still confuse me (and many others)
21:05	tomoj	struggling to find a reason to stay with clojure for some work
21:05	tcrayford	as opposed to haskell?
21:05	tomoj	yeah
21:06	tomoj	well, and erlang, but I'd be using that anyway alongside clojure
21:06	jcromartie	Haskell 1.0 was defined in 1990
21:06	tcrayford	yeah tis pretty old then
21:06	jcromartie	tomoj: struggling?
21:06	tcrayford	it depends on the problem space and your familiarity mostly
21:06	powr-toc	jcromartie: perhaps, but it's an academic language and community without a great interop story... clojure being on the JVM with awesome Java interop seems more likely to succeed, what with less maths and the easier sell
21:07	jcromartie	heh yes
21:07	tomoj	I like lisps a lot and I particularly like clojure
21:07	tomoj	but haskell is recently making me very interested
21:07	jcromartie	Clojure is the best. lisp. ever.
21:07	jcromartie	If I may use an annoying typographic trend...
21:07	tcrayford	its the best lisp I've used (so far)
21:08	powr-toc	and erlang... though a great language... again lacks enough library interop to be acceptable to industry beyond it's admitedly growing niche...
21:08	jcromartie	I've tried various CLs and Schemes
21:08	jcromartie	but clojure is like rocket-powered lisp in terms of just getting shit working
21:09	jcromartie	thanks to interop
21:09	tomoj	that niche is right where I'm at :)
21:09	powr-toc	tcrayford: I've been interested in lisp for many years... but clojures the first one I considered really learning and doing anything...
21:09	powr-toc	im
21:09	powr-toc	s/im/in
21:09	tcrayford	yep
21:09	tcrayford	about the same here
21:09	tomoj	same here
21:10	tomoj	except I don't have "many" years perhaps
21:10	tcrayford	I've read the first chapter of sicp, and the first 15 chapters of on lisp
21:10	tcrayford	and disliked common lisp enough to run away from it
21:10	tomoj	(since I only started programming 6 years ago or so.. :( )
21:10	tcrayford	I started programming less than a year ago
21:10	powr-toc	tcrayford: Common Lisp and Scheme always seemed impractical
21:11	tomoj	I wonder if rhickey has commented anywhere on haskell's stm
21:11	alexyk	where's the error here, it's checking that a sequence is increasing:
21:11	tomoj	so we have 3 people at 3 different timescales making the same progress from general lispy interest to love of clojure ?
21:11	tomoj	:D
21:11	alexyk	,(let [[x & xs] [1 2 3]] (-> xs (reduce (fn [[r x] y] [(and r (< x y)) y]) [true x])))
21:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
21:11	powr-toc	tomoj: well I guess I don't have many years either... interest and "learning/doing" are very different
21:12	tcrayford	confirm that powr-toc
21:12	jcromartie	the CL hyperspec is like stepping through a gateway into 1995 or something
21:12	tcrayford	more like 1987
21:12	alexyk	this works:
21:12	jcromartie	it's kind of awesome in that way
21:12	alexyk	,(let [[x & xs] [1 2 3] [r _ ] (reduce (fn [[r x] y] [(and r (< x y)) y]) [true x] xs)] r)
21:12	clojurebot	true
21:12	jcromartie	I like the aliased two-color graphics
21:12	tcrayford	I think common lisp is actually older than I am
21:12	alexyk	but I wonder what's wrong with the above -> form
21:13	fanatico	alexyk: ->>
21:13	alexyk	ah! arrgh
21:13	qbg	The hyperspec is part of the simpler, more refined web
21:13	fanatico	-> is thread-first, ->> is thread-last
21:13	alexyk	it's been a few days
21:13	tcrayford	-> and ->> really confuse me
21:13	tomoj	using -> or ->> seems strange to me there
21:13	tomoj	since there's just the thing and one thing to do to it
21:13	alexyk	tomoj: we need to extract the result from the tuple
21:14	jcromartie	what are people doing to set up Java and clojure stuff on OS X?
21:14	alexyk	after a long reduce, a first or (... 0)
21:14	jcromartie	i.e. where do you put it all?
21:14	powr-toc	clojure is my first commitment to lisp... except maybe a brief fling with emacs-lisp which was more out of a desire to use emacs, than learn lisp... though I have to admit, emacs being implemented in lisp was a factor in me choosing emacs over vim... as lisp felt like something worth knowing vim's config language didn't.
21:14	jcromartie	I have a ~/src
21:14	alexyk	hence ->> seems useful for decluttering/suffixing
21:14	tomoj	powr-toc: exactly on emacs vs. vim for me as well
21:14	tomoj	alexyk: ok, I'll take your word for it
21:14	tomoj	I haven't understood your code yet :)
21:14	alexyk	tomoj: :)
21:14	qbg	->> is a poor man's concatenative code
21:14	jcromartie	emacs is like Eclipse to me... it's an development-environment-development-environment
21:15	alexyk	qbg: what's the rich man's?
21:15	tomoj	like eclipse, except usable (to me)
21:15	qbg	alexyk: I'm trying (key word there) to work on it
21:15	tomoj	can't haskell do that stuff fairly well?
21:15	alexyk	qbg: ah!
21:15	tomoj	concatenative I mean
21:16	alexyk	Guy Steele btw is doing some weird Fortress, in case folks think time goes back to Lisp
21:16	tomoj	oh, I don't think I understood what "concatenative" means
21:16	alexyk	and he got really cure math symbols a la Mathematica
21:16	alexyk	cute
21:16	tomoj	I saw his talk about that
21:16	jcromartie	Forth :)
21:16	powr-toc	not an eclipse fan either... I prefer netbeans... but even then despite being a java developer I've never bothered myself to build anything for either... java's too clunky to take home.
21:17	tcrayford	alexyk, is that code just checking that a collection is increasing?
21:17	tomoj	seems like it was targeted for scientific computing, right?
21:17	alexyk	tomoj: exactly
21:17	jcromartie	"Java is too clunky to take home." great quote
21:17	alexyk	what do you mean just? should it play a violin, too? :)
21:17	alexyk	or is it too verbose? :)
21:18	tcrayford	trying to see if I can come up with a simpler way of doing it
21:18	tcrayford	seems very complex
21:18	jcromartie	Java is just no fun, alexyk
21:18	powr-toc	alexyk: it's too clunky... verbosity I can live with... if it has utility
21:18	jcromartie	it's C in a polo and khakis
21:18	alexyk	tcrayford: I do everyting with reduce's. Shorter versions welcome! :)
21:18	jcromartie	it's C++ with its balls cut off
21:18	tcrayford	I dislike having to learn java at college :/
21:19	tcrayford	(let [sorted (sort < [1 2 3])]
21:19	tcrayford	(= sorted [1 2 3]))
21:19	tomoj	,(every? (fn [[x y]] (< x y)) (partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4 5]))
21:19	clojurebot	true
21:20	powr-toc	jcromartie: alexyk: I personally don't like beating on Java too bad... It's too fasionable these days :-) ... Java's clunky, reliable and built to survive the next trillion years... just like everything Sun ever made!!!
21:20	tcrayford	,(let [sorted (sort < [1 2 3])] (= sorted [1 2 3]))
21:20	clojurebot	true
21:20	jcromartie	yes, it's fine... it's just insipid
21:20	jcromartie	flavorless
21:20	alexyk	tcrayford: no sorting. :)
21:20	tomoj	I think I made a cute name for (partial partition 2 1)
21:20	alexyk	think 10000000 tweets' timestamps :)
21:20	alexyk	...000...
21:21	tcrayford	oh ok
21:21	alexyk	you guys mostaken me for some Java advocate or something. I hate Java with a passion, FTR.
21:21	tomoj	hmm, could also do (map vector (seq coll) (next coll))
21:22	tomoj	is there a clearer way to write that, I wonder?
21:22	alexyk	I prefer OCaml, but JVM lets me plug in into some libs :)
21:22	alexyk	although it's damn slow, so I wanted to see if Haskell is a speedup :)
21:22	jcromartie	I'm not saying I hate Java or anything. The libs are great. It's just dull! That's why Clojure is great.
21:22	powr-toc	I guess I don't like bashing on Java, because half the developers I know only know .net, and somehow think it's massively better than java.... When I say Java, I mean the java language and c#... not the JVM or Java eco system :-)
21:23	tomoj	alexyk: are you doing data mining on twitter?
21:23	alexyk	jcromartie: well, I hate verbosity, and Blah someBlah = new BlahstyBlah(new BlashphetyBlah...)) is horrible, horrible abomination.
21:23	alexyk	tomoj: yes
21:23	jcromartie	oh man
21:23	jcromartie	then you'd hate Objective-C :)
21:23	tcrayford	haha
21:23	fanatico	haha
21:23	tcrayford	and cocoa
21:24	jcromartie	Foo foo = [(Foo )[Foo alloc] initWithBar:bar bat:bat]];
21:24	alexyk	there's MacRuby :)
21:24	jcromartie	yes, the cast is sometimes needed
21:24	tomoj	alexyk: I'm interested in that problem
21:24	tomoj	alexyk: for academia?
21:24	tcrayford	pyobjc even more
21:24	qbg	Given the horrible Java code I've seen, I'm just glad it's not C++ code.
21:24	alexyk	tomoj: yes, for now :)
21:24	powr-toc	qbg: lol
21:24	tomoj	alexyk: you got a firehose, right? how do you go about getting one of those?
21:25	alexyk	tomoj: we don't get it, no need for it for now, gardenhose is ok
21:25	tomoj	some of the ideas I'm thinking about with haskell now tie into that sort of thing and I'd like to test them out
21:25	tomoj	thanks, I'll look into the gardenhoses
21:25	tcrayford	iirc the twitter people have done some data mining with clojure recently
21:26	powr-toc	I think after a lot more time with clojure, the next languages I want to dig into are Ocaml, Haskell and more Prolog.... oh and I'd like to return to factor.
21:26	tcrayford	(just for kicks)
21:26	beutdeuce	If i have a list of strings ("clojure" "is" "cool") and a list of identifiers (:word :word: :word), how do i create a map {"clojure" :word "is" :word "cool" :word} ?
21:26	tcrayford	,(doc zipmap)
21:26	clojurebot	"([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."
21:26	tomoj	twitter data mining will just be a demo application for what I'm working on, I don't think I can use clojure :(
21:26	alexyk	tomoj: you mean data mining twitter in haskell?
21:27	tcrayford	,(zipmap ["clojure" "is" "cool"] (iterate :word))
21:27	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$iterate
21:27	tomoj	alexyk: yeah
21:27	beutdeuce	tcrayford: it ends up returning {("clojure" "is" "cool") :word}
21:27	tomoj	well, maybe with erlang's help
21:27	tcrayford	woops
21:27	tomoj	but the business logic in haskell
21:27	jcromartie	ack
21:27	jcromartie	clojure + erlang + haskell, seriously?
21:27	tomoj	no clojure, probably
21:27	jcromartie	you should be fine with one of those
21:27	tomoj	I like it but I don't think I can afford it
21:28	tcrayford	,(zipmap [ "clojure" "is" "cool" ] [:word :word :word])
21:28	clojurebot	{"cool" :word, "is" :word, "clojure" :word}
21:28	tomoj	yeah erlang alone might be OK but I like what haskell can do for some stuff (which clojure, though more friendly, can't, I'm afraid) :)
21:28	tcrayford	,(zipmap [:word :word :word] ["clojure" "is" "cool"])
21:28	clojurebot	{:word "cool"}
21:29	headius	hey, how do you specify multiple overloads for a given method to be gen-class'ed
21:30	powr-toc	tomoj: Curious, what can Haskell do that clojure can't?
21:30	beutdeuce	tcrayford: doesnt work for me when i do (zipmap ("clojure" "is" "cool") (repeat :word)), cause i get {("clojure" "is" "cool") :word}
21:31	powr-toc	tomoj: the type system?
21:31	tomoj	powr-toc: yeah
21:31	fanatico	beutdeuce: quote the list
21:31	tcrayford	or use a vector
21:31	qbg	,(zipmap ["clojure" "is" "cool"] (repeat 3 :word))
21:31	clojurebot	{"cool" :word, "is" :word, "clojure" :word}
21:31	tomoj	powr-toc: extra assurance imo about what _exactly_ the code is doing
21:31	fanatico	,(zipmap '("clojure" "is" "cool") (repeat :word))
21:31	clojurebot	{"cool" :word, "is" :word, "clojure" :word}
21:32	tcrayford	iirc its a bit more idiomatic to use a vector
21:33	powr-toc	tomoj: I've never used a language with such a damn-strong type system... is it just the scope for catching... I mean err proving the absence of certain errors that helps... or is it more?
21:33	beutdeuce	well, the thing is that i am actually doing (zipmap (list tokens) (repeat :word)) where tokens is a seq of split strings
21:34	beutdeuce	nvm
21:34	beutdeuce	got it
21:34	powr-toc	and what problems are best solved by a language with a strong type system?
21:34	fanatico	if tokens is already a seq, (zipmap tokens (repeat :word))
21:34	beutdeuce	seq is already encapsulated
21:34	fanatico	powr-toc: parsers.
21:35	tcrayford	does clojure have anything like haskell's parser combinators?
21:35	headius	hmm
21:35	headius	I'm not finding an examples of generating classes with overloaded methods
21:36	powr-toc	tcrayford: http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse ??
21:36	tomoj	someone should write a good tutorial for fnparse I think
21:37	fanatico	tcrayford: there are libraries (and it's easy enough to write one yourself using clojure.contrib/monads) but it doesn't feel as elegant.
21:37	tomoj	maybe I'm just too stupid, I couldn't understand it when I looked at it
21:38	hiredman	headius: I don't think there is a mechanism for that, you have to take care of it in the implementing functions
21:38	headius	dang
21:38	headius	I'm trying to find a way to avoid that situation in my class generation for jruby
21:38	technomancy	yeah, unfortunately I don't think that's hooked up in the compiler yet
21:38	hiredman	technomancy: eh?
21:38	technomancy	hiredman: I don't think it's been ruled out for the future, has it?
21:39	headius	probably via something like def_java "String foo2(String, int)" => :foo_string_int
21:39	hiredman	tomoj: actually fnparse is about to go through it's third big architectural change
21:39	headius	hiredman, technomancy: so currently, if you specify multiple signatures, they all generate but dispatch to the same function?
21:40	tomoj	hiredman: oh, great, I thought it was dead
21:40	hiredman	headius: you only spec signatures for stuff you are extending
21:40	technomancy	headius: maybe in gen-class; in regular fns I think it's an error to specify multiple signatures that have the same arity
21:41	headius	I'm talking about gen-class
21:41	hiredman	sure
21:41	powr-toc	whenever I read anything about monads I simultaneously come away feeling I've realised some fundamental property of programming... akin to maybe zen enlightenment... but I also feel like I'm more confused and don't understand anything...
21:41	technomancy	I suspect the way gen-class methods are fed functions means the same limitations apply there
21:41	wilig	ugh, fighting swank-clojure but it's a losing battle at the moment. keep wondering if it really needs to be this complex. slime is a really simple protocol.
21:41	hiredman	:methods adds method signatures, you don't specify signatures for already existing methods
21:41	technomancy	wilig: it's certainly accumulated over time
21:41	fanatico	tcrayford: I worked through http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/monparsing.pdf, translating the examples to clojure. I found it helped a lot.
21:41	headius	let me put it more simply
21:41	hiredman	it just looks for vars in the current namespace
21:41	technomancy	wilig: I've pondered a from-scratch rewrite, but I'm not currently brave enough
21:42	headius	if I want to gen-class a new class that has multiple overloads, is it possible
21:42	technomancy	wilig: the swank-clojure is a pretty literal port of the CL version though
21:42	powr-toc	Ultimately I'm sure I don't grok monads at all...
21:43	wilig	technomancy: I understand. The from scratch rewrite sounds appealing and I'm sure it would be a decent way to learn clojure. But ugh, my head hurts.
21:43	hiredman	headius: gen-classed methods just distpach to the clojure function with that name
21:43	hiredman	so (.foo bar) will look for -foo in hte namespace implemnting bar
21:44	hiredman	and -foo is responsible from there on out
21:44	technomancy	so in the end it comes down to a limitation of fns
21:44	headius	ok, that doesn't really answer my question either
21:45	headius	perhaps what I'm getting is that you can't do overloads
21:45	technomancy	yes
21:45	hiredman	you can, but not as a mechanism in gen-class
21:45	wilig	as far as I can tell, which isn't very far. In order to get read-line working I need to send emacs a read-string message, but I can't find that anywhere in the swank-clojure sources. /sigh
21:46	technomancy	,(fn ([#^String a]) ([#^Boolean a]))
21:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't have 2 overloads with same arity
21:46	headius	so putting it a different way: you can't generate a completely new class entirely from clojure code that presents multiple different overloads of the same method name
21:46	hiredman	so if you actually want to do it in clojure, I can tell you how, but if you just are looking for a technique to apply else well, there isn't one
21:46	hiredman	headius: hmmm
21:46	hiredman	ah I understand
21:46	headius	right
21:47	hiredman	"The generated class automatically defines all of the non-private
21:47	hiredman	methods of its superclasses/interfaces."
21:47	hiredman	guess it can, just not how you want
21:47	headius	that's an intriguing decision in itself
21:47	headius	I assume that means it generates them all with logic to call the fn of the same name if it exists, or super otherwise
21:48	headius	I have considered a similar approach for jruby's generated java classes
21:48	headius	but yes, it doesn't sound like it's possible to create overloads unless they come from the parent class/interfaces
21:48	chouser	headius: yes, that's what is generated. It means you can add, change, remove method defintions dynamically.
21:49	hiredman	headius: uh, if it;s not from the parent class/interface, how is it an overload?
21:49	hiredman	you can use :methods to add more method signatures
21:50	headius	overloads are not overrides
21:50	headius	I think you are confusing the two
21:50	headius	overload = same name, different signature
21:50	hiredman	ok, then you can use :methods
21:50	headius	override = same name and signature as parent class method, replacing it
21:50	hiredman	define a new signature
21:50	headius	ok
21:50	hiredman	the resolution to implmenting fn will be the same
21:51	headius	so you can have multiple entries in :methods for the same fn name
21:51	headius	and all overloads will dispatch to the same fn
21:51	headius	no way to specify one overload goes one place and another goes another place?
21:51	hiredman	or multifn or multimethod
21:52	technomancy	yeah, a multimethod would get the same functionality, but from a bytecode level has nothing to do with an overload
21:52	hiredman	hmmm
21:52	hiredman	technomancy: sure, but the overload is there thanks to the signature in :methods
21:52	headius	multimethod still represents a single entry point but then chooses a different body based on the actual types/arity?
21:52	headius	so all the overloads would dispatch to the multimethod, and it would re-branch
21:53	technomancy	headius: based on an arbitrary dispatch function
21:53	headius	ok
21:53	technomancy	yes
21:53	hiredman	headius: yes
21:53	headius	that's closer, certainly
21:53	headius	that's how you'd do it in ruby as well, but not through any explicit mechanism
21:53	headius	case arg; when String; ... when Integer; ....
21:54	chouser	go go gadget protocol
21:54	hiredman	chouser: :D
21:54	headius	I'm hoping to provide a way to route different overloads actually to different methods
21:55	headius	but it's good to know clojure doesn't handle that yet either
21:56	headius	if anyone's interested, I have this at the moment for a prototype class generator:
21:56	headius	(for jruby)
21:56	tcrayford	chouser: liking that the joy of clojure has a style guide in it
21:57	headius	http://gist.github.com/277771
21:57	headius	rough sketch
21:57	chouser	tcrayford: great!
21:58	technomancy	headius: interesting. so "signature" prepares the compiler for the next call to def? or is it for all further calls to def like private/public?
21:58	headius	technomancy: yes
21:59	headius	this is all pulled out of the code statically
21:59	headius	public/private would work the same way, setting a flag at compile time
21:59	technomancy	cool
21:59	headius	signature would be a no-op at runtime
22:00	headius	the basic logic would be to generate a really slim stub class that loads the associated script code, ties itself to the ruby class, and then proceeds
22:00	headius	the logic for each Java method just does a dyncall to the ruby version
22:02	alexyk	ok what's the prettiest way to convert a list of pairs to a plain vector, filling blanks by 0? ([0 12] [1 23] [3 65]) => [12 23 0 65]
22:03	alexyk	the first elements are indices, 0-based
22:04	hiredman	that makes no sense
22:04	hiredman	how is there a blank?
22:04	headius	hmm
22:04	alexyk	hiredman: the pairs is a sparse vector representation. sorry, blank means we have a gap
22:05	alexyk	[0 x] [1 y] [3 z] => [x y 0 z]
22:06	technomancy	,(let [l '([0 12] [1 23] [3 65]) m (into {} l)] (reduce #(conj %1 (m %2)) [] (range (inc (first (last m))))))
22:06	clojurebot	[12 23 nil 65]
22:06	technomancy	just add an (or (m %2) 0) into the #() form
22:07	hiredman	erm
22:07	hiredman	what is with the into?
22:07	qbg	Wouldn't (last l) be safer?
22:08	technomancy	qbg: yeah, that's what I meant; typo
22:08	hiredman	and if there is a reason for the into, you should use a sorted-map
22:08	alexyk	interesting...
22:08	hiredman	and still unconvinced of the need for the into
22:09	qbg	hiredman: Big O?
22:09	technomancy	hiredman: you can't use nth to look up things in l because it's sparse, so I don't see how else you'd look up the value for a given index
22:09	technomancy	I mean, without traversing l every time
22:09	technomancy	sure, it's an optimization
22:10	technomancy	alexyk: just don't ask for a lazy version =)
22:10	hiredman	,(let [l '([0 12] [1 23] [3 65]) v (repeat (count l) 0)] v)
22:10	clojurebot	(0 0 0)
22:10	alexyk	technomancy: nothing lazy here :)
22:12	hiredman	,(let [l '([0 12] [1 23] [3 65]) v (repeat (count l) 0) f (fn [v [k v’]] (assoc v k v’))] (reduce f v l))
22:12	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
22:12	hiredman	erm
22:12	hiredman	,(let [l '([0 12] [1 23] [3 65]) v (vec (repeat (count l) 0)) f (fn [v [k v’]] (assoc v k v’))] (reduce f v l))
22:12	clojurebot	[12 23 0 65]
22:13	qbg	,(let [l [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]]] (reduce #(assoc %1 (first %2) (second %2)) (range (inc (first (last l)))) l))
22:13	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
22:13	technomancy	oh dang... I forgot assoc worked on vectors
22:13	technomancy	well-played
22:13	qbg	,(let [l [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]]] (reduce #(assoc %1 (first %2) (second %2)) (vec (range (inc (first (last l)))))))
22:13	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
22:14	hiredman	qbg: that assumes l is sorted
22:14	hiredman	technomancy: thank you
22:14	qbg	hiredman: True
22:14	alexyk	l is sorted in my data
22:15	alexyk	index is increasing, although may be sparse
22:15	hiredman	actually
22:15	hiredman	mine assumes the vector is not that sparse
22:16	hiredman	ugh
22:16	hiredman	I hate to see last
22:17	chouser	,(let [v [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]], m (apply max (map first v)), o (vec (repeat (inc m) 0))] (reduce (fn [o [k v]] (assoc o k v)) o v))
22:17	clojurebot	[12 23 0 65]
22:17	hiredman	oooh, max
22:18	alexyk	wow
22:19	tcrayford	chouser: The start of page 70 about closing parens could use an example of good style (or a note that every other bit of code in the book puts its ending parens in the right place)
22:21	alexyk	qbg: so any final working version for my collection? :)
22:22	alexyk	:)
22:29	qbg	Anyways, my solution would be similar to chouser's
22:33	chouser	alexyk: you said the keys are increasing?
22:34	alexyk	chouser: yep
22:34	hiredman	you could concievably do a check and pad the vector out as you go
22:34	chouser	yeah, that's what I'm thinking
22:34	hiredman	instead of doing another seq traversal
22:39	jcromartie	holy crap how much does Maven download every time you run a command?
22:43	chouser	,(loop [[[k v] :as i] [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]], o []] (cond (empty? i) o (== k (count o)) (recur (next i) (conj o v)) :else (recur i (conj o 0))))
22:43	clojurebot	[12 23 0 65]
22:46	hiredman	:(
22:46	hiredman	loop
22:46	chouser	yeah
22:47	alexyk	loop! recur! finally, real code! :)
22:47	timothypratley	jcromartie: maven requires the whole internet as a dependency tree that needs to be refreshed every command,
22:47	alexyk	I was writing similar with reduce, carrying tuples
22:47	chouser	can't think of how to pad or not in any of the high-level fns
22:47	jcromartie	seems that way
22:47	jcromartie	but hey, at least it's not ant
22:49	hiredman	,(reduce conj [:a :b :c] (range 10))
22:49	clojurebot	[:a :b :c 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
22:49	hiredman	,(reduce conj [:a :b :c] (repeat 10 0))
22:49	clojurebot	[:a :b :c 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0]
22:49	alexyk	jcromartie: it will download until it has it. if you installed manually and forgot to install the pom, it will try to download until you install the pom
22:50	jcromartie	has what? and install what pom?
22:51	hiredman	,((comp (partial apply reduce conj) (juxt identity range)) [:a :b :c] 4)
22:51	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$identity
22:51	hiredman	,((comp (partial apply reduce conj) (juxt (comp first list) (comp range second))) [:a :b :c] 4)
22:51	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$second
22:51	hiredman	,((comp (partial apply reduce conj) (juxt (comp first list) (comp range second list))) [:a :b :c] 4)
22:51	clojurebot	[:a :b :c 0 1 2 3]
22:52	hiredman	:\|
22:52	timothypratley	Having said that - Maven is really great at what it does. And I'm really impressed with leiningen, very slick.
22:55	jcromartie	ok but still, what is the "it" and the pom in alexyk's comment?
22:55	alexyk	jcromartie: depends what it wants in your case! study the [INFO] lines
22:56	jcromartie	k
22:56	jcromartie	it seemed to be all basically maven-related
22:57	qbg	,(let [a (into {} [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]]) b (apply max (map first foo))] (map #(get a % 0) (range (inc b))))
22:57	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
22:57	qbg	,(let [a (into {} [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]]) b (apply max (map first a))] (map #(get a % 0) (range (inc b))))
22:57	clojurebot	(12 23 0 65)
22:58	qbg	Finally
22:59	qbg	alexyk: That should be a lazy solution to the problem
23:00	alexyk	hah!
23:00	alexyk	thx!
23:00	hiredman	max is not lazy
23:00	chouser	except max will realize the whole seq
23:00	hiredman	neither is into
23:00	alexyk	:(
23:00	qbg	Well, the resulting sequence is lazy at least
23:07	alexyk	I have a transform f for all values of a map; it should remain a map with same keys. How do I do that?
23:08	hiredman	reduce
23:08	hiredman	or map + into
23:09	chouser	or zipmap + map
23:10	hiredman	is the order returned by keys and vals always going to be the same?
23:10	hiredman	I don't trust zipmap
23:11	chouser	,((fn f [n [[k v] :as i]] (lazy-seq (when i (if (== k n) (cons v (f (inc n) (next i))) (cons 0 (f (inc n) i)))))) 0 [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]])
23:12	clojurebot	(12 23 0 65)
23:12	chouser	fully lazy
23:12	chouser	hiredman: yes, the same order as a seq on the map itself
23:12	chouser	the map doesn't change in the meantime of course
23:18	qbg	,(let [a [[0 12] [1 23] [3 65]] b (map #(- (first %1) (first %2) 1) a (cons [0] a))] (mapcat #(concat (repeat %1 0) [(second %2)]) b a))
23:18	clojurebot	(12 23 0 65)
23:19	qbg	Should be fully lazy, but messy
23:22	chouser	qbg: interesting!
23:29	chouser	,(let [a [[1 23] [3 65]] b (map #(- (first %1) (first %2) 1) a (cons [0] a))] (mapcat #(concat (repeat %1 0) [(second %2)]) b a))
23:29	clojurebot	(23 0 65)
23:30	chouser	,(let [a [[1 12] [2 23] [4 65]], ks (map first a), b (map - ks (cons -1 ks))] (apply concat (interleave (map #(repeat (dec %) 0) b) (map #(list (second %)) a))))
23:30	clojurebot	(0 12 23 0 65)
23:31	chouser	I guess that's not really any cleaner.
23:31	qbg	,(let [a [[1 23] [3 65]] b (map #(- (first %1) (first %2) 1) a (cons [-1] a))] (mapcat #(concat (repeat %1 0) [(second %2)]) b a))
23:31	clojurebot	(0 23 0 65)
23:31	qbg	Now even more horrible!
23:35	chouser	,(let [a [[1 12] [2 23] [5 65]], m (into (sorted-map) a)] (map m (-> a last first inc range) (repeat 0)))
23:35	clojurebot	(0 12 23 0 0 65)
23:35	chouser	oh.
23:35	chouser	that's not using the sorted map at all.
23:36	chouser	qbg: I just reinveted yours. :-P
23:36	tcrayford	chouser: there appear to be some rendering errors on page 79
23:39	chouser	tcrayford: indeed, thanks.
23:45	alexyk	chouser: for zipmap, are we guaranteed that (keys m) and (vals m) will return aligned lists?
23:45	alexyk	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}] (zipmap (keys m) (map inc (vals m))))
23:45	clojurebot	{:b 3, :a 2}
23:45	chouser	alexyk: yes
23:46	chouser	both return items in the same order as (seq m)
23:46	tcrayford	chouser: also much enjoying the book so far. Its taught me a couple of tricks that I didn't know (like :keys in map destructuring)
23:46	chouser	tcrayford: great, thanks!
23:46	chouser	tcrayford: have you read any of the other books?
23:46	tcrayford	yep
23:47	chouser	Halloways?
23:47	tcrayford	and in action
23:47	chouser	oh, ok. great.
23:47	tcrayford	yours seems better as a second book
23:47	tcrayford	or more advanced than the other two at least
23:47	chouser	excellent! That's exactly what we're aiming for.
23:48	tcrayford	and pretty much what I was looking for in a book as well
23:48	tcrayford	I can read the language well enough, just don't use it quite as well as I'd like
23:48	tcrayford	nice one.
23:48	alexyk	hmm, I missed it -- where can I read chouser's book? :)
23:49	chouser	alexyk: http://joyofclojure.com/
23:49	alexyk	thx!
23:50	tcrayford	looks like its going to be quite a long book
23:50	tcrayford	if you stick to the current contents
23:51	chouser	we really don't want it to be a giant tome. Hopefully we can shake out some of the less useful bits and extra wordiness, and get a nice succinct result.
23:51	tcrayford	aye
23:52	tomoj	chouser: looks awesome
23:52	chouser	Thanks! I really hope it lives up to the high expectations. :-)
23:52	tcrayford	my only problem with meap is that I want to read certain parts of the rest of it now (the concurrency chapter and probably ch6-8)
23:53	patrickdlogan	question... I'm returning to clojure after some time... tried leiningen early in its being...
23:53	tomoj	when can I start reading it? already?
23:53	tomoj	I will buy it right now
23:53	patrickdlogan	is lein considered the place to start and use clojure projects now?
23:53	chouser	tcrayford: yeah, I'd like to read those too. ...would help make the writing of them go faster.
23:53	tomoj	(I wonder if that book will talk about lein..)
23:54	tcrayford	tomoj: you can read what's been written so far, with updates as they come
23:54	chouser	tomoj: not currently planned, but that may change. lein didn't exist when the early outline were drawn up, and is rapidly becoming a defacto standard.
23:54	chouser	tomoj: first chapter is free now, through 4 available now if you buy
23:54	tcrayford	you've got a bit about larger project design in there right?
23:55	tcrayford	lein should probably go in there
23:55	tcrayford	at least like a paragraph or summat
23:55	tomoj	chouser: buying now
23:55	tomoj	:)
23:55	chouser	tcrayford: possibly. or perhaps in an appendix.
23:55	tomoj	I think as lein cleans up it would be good to have nicer docs for them too
23:56	chouser	tomoj: great, thanks!
23:56	tomoj	a tutorial or something maybe
23:56	tcrayford	the lein sample project and `lein new` worked pretty well for me
23:56	tomoj	last I tried it I still couldn't grok like I could rubygems
23:56	tomoj	though admittedly I never did much about setting up gems
23:56	tcrayford	lein isn't really like rubygems though
23:57	tomoj	well, at least a tutorial would be nice
23:57	tomoj	also how to deal with projects which aren't in clojars yet and also have java dependencies
23:58	tomoj	possibly spread across multiple maven repos :(
23:58	tcrayford	those are pretty tricky with lein's current setup :(
23:58	tomoj	I don't remember if I managed to get compojure working or not
23:58	tomoj	and I had trouble with lein-swank and swank-clojure-mode
23:58	tcrayford	I've had compojure working out of lein for donkeys years
23:58	tcrayford	also what trouble with lein swank?
23:59	tomoj	chouser: I wonder, are some of the profits from your soon to be ridiculously popular book going to clojure? I'll still buy if not, but that would be cool. dunno how much money books actually make that the publisher won't claim