#clojure – 2010-01-12

2010-01-12

00:01	G0SUB	ctdean: which version of log4j should I use? 1.3 is obsolete, 2.0 is experimental
00:02	ctdean	G0SUB: I'm using log4j-1.2.14.jar, no idea if that's a good one
00:02	mebaran151	defn, I've built, but it wants a program called makeinfo
00:02	mebaran151	why can't stallman use manpages like the rest of us
00:05	Licenser_	hmmm functional chimney: (reduce #(burn %) '(wood wood wood wood))
00:06	somnium	Licenser_: isn't the smoke and heat side-effecty?
00:06	Licenser_	na we just reduce the wood to ashes
00:07	Raynes	defn: You know you can get Emacs 23 from the Ubuntu repos as far back as Hardy, right?
00:07	Raynes	emacs-gtk-snapshot
00:07	Licenser_	but somnium you're right
00:08	G0SUB	ctdean: the log file path, does it need to be absolute?
00:08	Licenser_	so lets say: (defn burn [stuff] '(heat ashes smoke))
00:08	ctdean	G0SUB: I don't think so
00:08	somnium	Licenser_: hmm, you may be on to something
00:09	Licenser_	yap
00:10	arohner	hmm, I want a get-in that also does derefs as appropriate...
00:10	arohner	(get-in* foo [:a :b @ :c])
00:10	arohner	of course, writing that, I want an update-in that does the same thing
00:11	arohner	nm, that doesn't make as much sense
00:11	hiredman	get-in is called ->
00:11	arohner	hiredman: good point
00:11	hiredman	,(-> foo :a :b deref :c)
00:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
00:12	somnium	are any of the -$> variants in contrib?
00:12	hiredman	making update-in work on mutable structures and immutable structures would be tricky
00:12	hiredman	,(doc -?>)
00:12	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.core/-?>;[[x form] [x form & forms]]; Same as clojure.core/-> but returns nil as soon as the threaded value is nil itself (thus short-circuiting any pending computation). Examples : (-?> \"foo\" .toUpperCase (.substring 1)) returns \"OO\" (-?> nil .toUpperCase (.substring 1)) returns nil "
00:13	somnium	ah!
00:13	somnium	hmm
00:13	arohner	yeah, I realized I don't need [:a :b deref :c] on update-in
00:14	arohner	I wish those things had canonical names
00:14	arohner	i.e. thread-maybe
00:14	arohner	I don't want perlisms in my clojure
00:14	somnium	I meant the ones that move the argument
00:14	arohner	there's ->>
00:14	hiredman	oh, the icky templating stuff?
00:14	hiredman	shrug
00:14	somnium	Ive been using an anti-> for doing (-> x (range) (>> map inc))
00:15	Licenser_	somnium: http://gist.github.com/274938
00:15	somnium	=> (->> (-> x range) (map inc))
00:15	somnium	but its kind of silly
00:15	mebaran151	alright, I think I got emacs installed
00:15	hiredman	add a doto in there
00:15	mebaran151	and I can get slime
00:15	mebaran151	now how do I get all the goodies
00:16	hiredman	,(doto :a (-> prn))
00:16	clojurebot	:a
00:16	clojurebot	:a
00:17	hiredman	(doto X (-> ((partial juxt #(.write % stuff) #(.close %)))))
00:18	hiredman	of course you could just (doto X (.write stuff) .close)
00:20	mebaran151	like the infamous paredit etc
00:20	somnium	hiredman: doto in place of >> / -$> ?
00:20	hiredman	aslong as you are using -> and ->> you might as well also use doto
00:20	somnium	Licenser: =)
00:21	somnium	hiredman: (-> 10 range (>> map inc) (nth 5)) with doto?
00:27	mebaran151	rainbow parens etc
00:27	somnium	mebaran151: emacs-starter-kit has some good stuff, incluing elpa
00:28	mebaran151	I've got elpa
00:28	hiredman	there is a rainbox-paren-mode out there
00:28	mebaran151	I've got highlight parens now
00:29	somnium	mebaran151: otherwise just start collecting .el files in your .emacs :)
00:30	mebaran151	alright
00:30	mebaran151	so now I want to setup something like I had in netbeans
00:30	mebaran151	where I would load the contents of a current file and smack it at the repl
00:30	hiredman	http://delicious.com/search?p=rainbow&chk=&context=userposts\|clojurebot&fr=del_icio_us&lc=0
00:32	mebaran151	I've got parens
00:36	mebaran151	where's a good guide to swank. like resetting the repl, etc
00:37	mebaran151	loading the current file in repl etc
00:40	somnium	mebaran151: you can install everything from elpa
00:45	mebaran151	will it autoload
00:46	mebaran151	like let's say I always want highlight-parens-mode when I'm editing a clojure file,how would I do this?
00:50	Raynes	There is a rainbow paren mode? Holy shit.
00:50	Raynes	I want.
00:51	somnium	mebaran151: highlight-parentheses (from elpa) is global, and ez customization can be had via <M-x customize-group> <highlight-parentheses>, which is only a couple with keystrokes with tab
00:53	mebaran151	so everytime I open a clojure file I have to M-x highlight-parentheses?
00:53	somnium	mebaran151: oops, its not global. std way is (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook 'highlight-parentheses-mode) but may be an option in customize too
00:56	mebaran151	where do I write this?
00:57	Raynes	mebaran151: .emacs
00:57	Raynes	~/.emacs
00:57	clojurebot	emacs is best configured for Clojure with instructions at http://technomancy.us/126
00:58	Raynes	The hell with Phil and his canonical instructions.
00:58	Raynes	!
00:58	Raynes	:>
00:59	mebaran151	alright let's try this
00:59	mebaran151	how do I switch to the slime buffer
01:00	G0SUB	people, I have this log4j.properties file in my src/ -- http://gist.github.com/274951 even then, when I log an error with c.c.logging it doesn't go into the file.
01:00	somnium	M-x slime
01:00	Raynes	mebaran151: Also, you don't have to close and then reopen emacs everytime you want to load new code in your .emacs file. Just place the cursor in space directly after the last parentheses in the sexp you want to evaluate in and do C-x C-e
01:02	Raynes	mebaran151: Also, checkout http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/InteractivelyDoThings
01:02	Raynes	check out*
01:02	Raynes	Quite useful.
01:04	G0SUB	OK, I figured what the problem was. c.c.logging uses java logging even when I have log4j in the classpath
01:04	hiredman	sure
01:04	mebaran151	so I want to duplicate this work process
01:04	G0SUB	if I call (log4j-logging) it works fine.
01:04	hiredman	logging decides which logging system to use at compile time
01:04	mebaran151	in Netbeans, I'd type ctrl-shift-n to switch to the name space I'm working in
01:05	mebaran151	then I'd type alt-l to load the file
01:05	mebaran151	then I'd whack at it in the repl
01:06	Raynes	Switch to the namespace you're working on the old fashioned way (ns ..) and then load the file via C-c-C-l or recompile the file via C-c-C-k
01:07	somnium	compile wont work without the classpath setup
01:07	Raynes	^
01:08	somnium	http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
01:10	mebaran151	I've got swank clojure up and running
01:10	mebaran151	can I get autocomplete
01:10	mebaran151	so ns woudl complete my namespace
01:11	optimizer	is there something like sqlite, but for clojure?
01:11	mebaran151	optimizer, derby?
01:11	mebaran151	hypersonic sql
01:12	optimizer	mebaran151: nice; thanks
01:33	mebaran151	so how would I get this setup
01:33	mebaran151	I want three or four buffers
01:33	mebaran151	one to list directories and files to switch between
01:33	mebaran151	one as the main editor
01:34	mebaran151	one as my project repl
01:34	mebaran151	and maybe one where I could get java and clojure docs
01:35	Raynes	mebaran151: Also, C-x 3-C-x o-C-x 2 :D
01:36	Raynes	I have 3 'panes' in my set up. 2 square boxes on the right side, and a big one on the left for editing.
01:37	Raynes	I'll also note that there is an Emacs file manager. M-x dired
02:09	timothypratley	,(.comparator (sorted-map 1 2 3 4))
02:09	clojurebot	#< clojure.lang.RT$2@f4a444>
02:10	timothypratley	Any ideas what that is?
02:12	timothypratley	I expect it is RT.DEFAULT_COMPARATOR, but I cannot fathom why it is not an IFn
02:16	timothypratley	ah I see why - never mind I figured it out
02:16	timothypratley	a comparator need not be an IFn from java land.
02:21	Raynes	Reading about protocols. Awesome
02:23	timothypratley	Raynes: I thought you were a vim user - have you converted to emacs now?
02:23	timothypratley	(or back)
02:24	Raynes	timothypratley: I played with Vim long enough to find out that I can't work with VimClojure very well.
02:24	timothypratley	Raynes: ah - why is that? The REPL interaction, or editing preference, or project integration?
02:25	Raynes	timothypratley: Mostly the fact that I could never get it to work correctly.
02:25	Raynes	Not that that is a VimClojure problem.
02:28	timothypratley	Raynes: hehehe yeah I hear you! It takes me an hour to install VimClojure whenever I need it somewhere... the installation instructions require careful attention I find lots of ways to make it not work.
02:41	G0SUB	timothypratley: hey, need some help with c.c.logging
02:42	G0SUB	timothypratley: c.c.logging is picking up util logging even when I have log4j in classpath
02:42	G0SUB	timothypratley: it works when I call (log4j-logging) manually.
03:00	mebaran151	thnaks Ranes
03:00	mebaran151	*Raynes
03:00	mebaran151	I gotta get used to buffers
03:01	Raynes	mebaran151: You're welcome.
03:01	Raynes	And either I've lost sense of time, or that was extremely delayed. :p
03:03	mebaran151	heh, my Internet went way wonky
03:03	mebaran151	anyway
03:03	mebaran151	how do I open three buffers?
03:03	defn	C-x 3
03:03	defn	C-x 2
03:04	defn	if you want a new frame, C-x 5 2
03:04	Raynes	I told you that a minute ago. >.>
03:05	Raynes	Well, more than a minute ago.
03:05	mebaran151	ah
03:05	mebaran151	that's what that did
03:05	mebaran151	it looked arcane
03:06	mebaran151	sorry, my internet went way wonky, packets flying and red lights flashing
03:06	mebaran151	I'm getting swank swnak not found
03:06	mebaran151	but it seems to work
03:07	mebaran151	how do I get dired to open the file in a different buffer
03:07	mebaran151	so I'd always have dired in a pane
03:09	Raynes	That's beyond me. I don't use dired.
03:09	mebaran151	I need an emacs manual
03:09	mebaran151	sigh
03:10	Raynes	mebaran151: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/emacs.html
03:10	mebaran151	a manual not written by Richard Stallman
03:10	Raynes	Hehe.
03:10	mebaran151	who assumes that we all live in the 70's :)
03:11	Raynes	mebaran151: http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10878_11-1053058.html
03:11	somnium	mebaran151: C-x 4 d
03:12	somnium	Im starting to dig this point free stuff: http://gist.github.com/274994
03:14	Raynes	I thought >> was in core.
03:15	hiredman	->>
03:15	hiredman	completely different
03:20	mebaran151	I'm beginning to remember why I wasn't a fan of emacs
03:23	timothypratley	mebaran151: why?
03:24	mebaran151	I'd have my Netbeans setup in less than two minutes
03:24	mebaran151	I'm trying to get a simple setup
03:24	mebaran151	dired pointing at my project
03:24	mebaran151	a main buffer editing a source file
03:24	mebaran151	and a repl with my classpath
03:24	mebaran151	I can't seem to get all these together
03:24	timothypratley	GOSUB: I'll take a closer look
03:27	Raynes	mebaran151: Emacs isn't a plug-n-play kind of thing.
03:27	mebaran151	nope I know
03:27	mebaran151	but I'm not sure what I'm going to get
03:27	mebaran151	:)
03:27	mebaran151	though I do like its parentheses highlighting a little better than Netbeans
03:28	somnium	mebaran151: do you have paredit on?
03:28	mebaran151	I think I do
03:28	mebaran151	I took the sign of my accidentally deleting my home dir as a sign I should learn emacs as penance
03:29	timothypratley	:)
03:30	somnium	Im not sure if paredit can keep your home-dir safe, but it may coax you out of netbeans :)
03:33	mebaran151	oh dired might
03:33	mebaran151	I was rm -r and there was a directly named tilde
03:33	mebaran151	this led to certain death
03:34	mebaran151	how do I get the repl now
03:34	mebaran151	I've got a process
03:35	mebaran151	how do I know if I have paredit on
03:35	timothypratley	G0SUB: timothypratley: c.c.logging is picking up util logging even when I have log4j in classpath <-- do you happen to have a git project I can try (no problem if not, I can try to recreate)
03:36	G0SUB	timothypratley: it's a proprietary codebase, but I can create a minimal setup just for you :)
03:36	G0SUB	timothypratley: just a sec
03:37	timothypratley	GOSUB: thanks!
03:39	vy	mebaran151: In "C-h m" there should appear paredit.
03:40	mebaran151	I don't think so
03:40	mebaran151	how do I enable it
03:41	esj	m-x paredit-mode
03:42	mebaran151	okay
03:42	mebaran151	so what can I do now?
03:43	mebaran151	I'm sorry for being such a total newb
03:43	mebaran151	all the blogposts tell you how to setup emacs, but nobody ever tells you how to use it...
03:43	Raynes	Checkout the paredit cheatsheet.
03:43	Raynes	I have it set as my desktop background.
03:44	mebaran151	it won't let me type a parens...
03:44	mebaran151	this I feel is intentional
03:45	G0SUB	timothypratley: http://github.com/ghoseb/test-logging
03:45	Raynes	mebaran151: If you started paredit mode with open parens that need closing, you're kind of screwed.
03:45	Raynes	I think I got around that somehow before though...
03:45	G0SUB	timothypratley: even now it picks up util logging
03:45	esj	Raynes: your background ! That's fantastic.
03:45	timothypratley	GOSUB: thanks for that - I'll see what I can do with it.
03:45	Raynes	esj: It's the place where it's most accessible. :p
03:46	G0SUB	timothypratley: cool
03:48	mebaran151	slime also is constantly telling me its polling
03:48	mebaran151	can I disable this?
03:48	Raynes	Eh, that means Slime never opened, and it means something's wrong.
03:48	Raynes	Is there a slime-repl clojure buffer, or just an inferior-lisp buffer?
03:49	Raynes	If there is just an inferior-lisp buffer, you might want to paste what it says.
03:53	esj	mebaran151: you're probably in for a frustrating morning.
03:53	Licenser	hrm I have trouble to understand require and use I think ...
03:53	mebaran151	it's an inferior lisp buffer
03:54	mebaran151	it seems run clojure
03:54	mebaran151	and it picks up my class path
03:54	esj	you also need a slime-repl clojure buffer
03:54	esj	which is where you clojure it up
03:54	Licenser	when I've two namespaces that both require a 3rd one, it should be loaded in both right? And they should not confligt?
03:54	mebaran151	Polling "/tmp/slime.6498".. (Abort with `M-x slime-abort-connection'.) [1147 times]Cancelled connection attempt.
03:55	esj	mebaran: Raynes is correct
03:55	Licenser	mebaran151: your problem is likely that slime does not find the clojar jars
03:55	mebaran151	alright
03:55	Licenser	wait a second I dig something up
03:55	mebaran151	let's have slime find them!
03:56	esj	mebaran151: I'm not the guy with the answers to this one. I had endless unhappiness until I did exactly what http://learnclojure.blogspot.com/2009/11/installing-clojure-on-ubuntu-910-karmic.html said to do
03:56	Licenser	you've to adjust your .emacs file
03:57	Raynes	mebaran151: At the beginning of your inferior-lisp buffer, do you see something with RestFn<init> in it?
03:57	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/275037 <- this one did the trick for me
03:57	G0SUB	timothypratley: that's a skeleton lein project. just open a repl with that project and use c.c.logging and check the impl-name
03:57	G0SUB	timothypratley: if you call (log4j-logging) it will work fine. just that (or ...) form is not working correctly (don't know why).
03:57	mebaran151	I can just start slime
03:57	mebaran151	there's like a graphic
03:58	mebaran151	M-x slime works
03:58	Licenser	mebaran151: I had the exact same problem this fixed it for me
03:58	Licenser	slime was working swank-clojure project not
03:58	Raynes	mebaran151: Slime is NOT working unless there is a slime-repl clojure buffer.
03:58	Raynes	java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V to be exact.
03:58	Licenser	what I did was getting the swank-clojure and slime from the git site and put this in my config file
03:59	mebaran151	yep
03:59	mebaran151	I get slime-repl clojure
03:59	mebaran151	jsut not from my project
03:59	Raynes	Oh.
03:59	mebaran151	I have the clojure jars in my project: is this going to cause problems
04:01	mebaran151	does swank works with 1.1
04:01	Licenser	yes but I had the same problem you have with the one from epal or how that thing is called
04:02	somnium	mebaran151: did you read the readme at technomancy's swank-clojure on github?
04:03	mebaran151	oh I need the swank jar
04:08	mebaran151	huzzah
04:08	mebaran151	I've got slime
04:09	mebaran151	and I got it to load a file
04:09	mebaran151	how do I get history in the repl
04:09	Licenser	grrr
04:09	somnium	C-<up>
04:11	mebaran151	now how do I load just one form
04:11	mebaran151	like evaluate a def
04:12	somnium	mebaran151: slime has a lot of commands, do C-h b, to be overwhelmed
04:12	somnium	(at the repl buffer)
04:12	mebaran151	alright
04:12	mebaran151	a more featureful repl
04:12	Licenser	so when I have namespace a.b.c1, a.b.c2 and a.b.c3 can I require a.b.c1 in both c2 and c3 without any problem?
04:14	somnium	Licenser: yes, why?
04:14	Licenser	because I keep getting problems like 'Alias modules already exists in namespace net.licenser.epic.modules.cycle, aliasing net.licenser.epic.modules'
04:16	somnium	Licenser: Im guessing theres more requiring going on than just a b and c?
04:17	Licenser	yea :(
04:19	timothypratley	GOSUB: Yeah thanks for the example I can clearly see the behaviour, and calling (or ...) works fine ... but I have a theory why it is not working
04:20	timothypratley	GOSUB: I believe the issue here is that because or is a macro, and so are the XXX-logging calls, it all gets decided at 'compile' time - which for a pre-packaged jar happens before the jar gets made, at which point log4j is not in the classpath
04:21	somnium	Licenser: if the repl's been up for awhile it might be lingering vars
04:21	Licenser	I really get confused
04:21	timothypratley	GOSUB: Whereas when using uncompiled contrib, this behaviour would not happen
04:21	Raynes	mebaran151: C-x C-e with the cursor immediately after the last paren in the sexp you wish to eval.
04:22	Licenser	I geuss I can't require A from B and B from A?
04:22	timothypratley	GOSUB: I could be way off the mark here but I'll experiment a bit more with it.
04:23	somnium	only if you can explain how to the compiler
04:23	Licenser	teehee
04:25	Raynes	Licenser: That is a circle dependency. Those are bad.
04:25	Licenser	:(
04:27	timothypratley	GOSUB: sorry that made no sense hahaha forget what I said just then.
04:28	Licenser	can I entirely flush the repl from everything I 'tought' it?
04:29	Raynes	I believe you would have to restart it for that.
04:30	Licenser	hmm hmm
04:31	esj	on that subject is there an undef ?
04:31	esj	i couldn't find it the other day
04:32	Raynes	(doc ns-unmap)
04:32	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace."
04:32	Raynes	Aha.
04:34	kanak	I installed swank-clojure from ELPA (version 1.1.0), and I'm getting this error: "Debugger entered: (("Error in timer" slime-attempt-connection (#<process inferior-lisp> nil 2) (file-error "make client process failed" "connection refused" :name "SLIME Lisp" :buffer nil :host "127.0.0.1" :service 49525)))" when i M-x slime. I'm on a debian system. Does anyone know what the problem could be?
04:34	Raynes	kanak: Did you also install Slime via ELPA?
04:35	fliebel	Good morning!
04:35	Raynes	Morning.
04:35	kanak	Raynes: I only installed swank-clojure from ELPA. I haven't installed slime separately
04:36	Licenser	yap flushing the repl helped
04:36	Raynes	kanak: Check to see if slime and slime-repl are installed in ELPA.
04:36	Raynes	If not, install them and try again.
04:36	esj	Raynes: hooray. That's a weird name, no ?
04:36	Raynes	esj: I didn't name it. ;)
04:37	esj	the naive might think that would be to do with the map function perhaps ;)
04:37	kanak	Raynes: It says slime 20091016 and slime-repl 20091016 are installed
04:37	Raynes	kanak: In that case, you might need to take this one to the swank-clojure mailing list. :\
04:37	kanak	Raynes: will do. thank you for your help.
04:39	fliebel	Clojure is good a concurrency, right? I thought it would be fun to write a computer vs computer card game of the kind where you have to shout or hit the stack when a certain combination of cards is on the table. How would I do such a thing? All the computer players need to access the stack in parallel, and the one with the best code or the most luck wins.
04:39	Raynes	fliebel: Clojure is awesome at concurrency.
04:40	mebaran151	but I think it's not good for the concurrency fliebel once
04:40	mebaran151	*wants
04:40	mebaran151	as in, it's meant to prevent those kinds of race ocnditions!
04:41	mebaran151	fliebel, you'd probably want to use Thread/sleep with a random value to simulate differences in response time
04:41	fliebel	That is what I was struggling with.
04:41	mebaran151	yeah you want a race condition :)
04:42	fliebel	hmhm, and I don't want to fake it, I want to make different players and test who's the best.
04:42	mebaran151	you could use a ref to moderate which player slaps its cards first
04:42	mebaran151	(whoever reads first wins...)
04:42	mebaran151	and randomized sleep to simulate different reaction times
04:44	fliebel	hmmm… What is I made one stack of cards which can be read by all, maybe via those hooks… The players then append their name to another ref and the first item on that ref is the winner.
04:44	Chousuke	that's not very interesting though.
04:45	Chousuke	essentially, the winner will be decided by luck. :/
04:45	fliebel	Chousuke: How would you do it then?
04:45	Chousuke	I don't know.
04:45	fliebel	The idea is that the winner is decided based on the most efficient way to check the cards.
04:47	fliebel	There are a lot of combinations that lead to a match, some occur more often than others, so which you check first and how is important I think.
04:47	Chousuke	well, if you arrow direct reads of the stack then that would be most efficient.
04:47	gregh	you could model the actual comparison operations or whatever at a higher level than just clojure code
04:47	fliebel	And, I know for myself that I think the wrong way around with this game, so I'm going to simulate bad players as well
04:48	mebaran151	is there anything in emacs where I can select a bunch of region of text and align the code
04:49	mebaran151	format it based on clojure spec
04:49	Raynes	That would be nice, wouldn't it?
04:50	somnium	M-x indent-region?
04:51	Raynes	Well, there ya go.
04:51	timothypratley	GOSUB: after throwing out my silly theory - I tried the same test without lein - and it says "org.apache.log4j". I'm still digging into why.
04:53	mebaran151	somnium, thanks
04:53	mebaran151	I got emacs almost as nice as netbeans now
04:53	mebaran151	and I can hold side by side buffers which is nice
04:53	mebaran151	slime is a little bit more comfortable than the Netbeans repl
04:53	somnium	almost!? :/
04:55	mebaran151	well dired doesn't quite do what I want
04:55	mebaran151	and I'm still scared whenever I do a buffer command
04:55	mebaran151	I don't know them yet
04:55	somnium	mebaran151: that will pass
04:55	mebaran151	yeah I think it will
04:55	somnium	theres nav if you dont like dired, on elpa
04:56	mebaran151	I was wondering if you could put swank clojure in a production app
04:56	mebaran151	and dial into it if it started acting up
04:56	mebaran151	no dired itself is fine
05:03	Licenser	hmmm okay I noticed something about the REPL, it clogs up after some time and gets all ugly, is that something that is me specific or a general problem?
05:06	gregh	that's a vague explanation :)
05:07	Licenser	yes of cause, I like to put things in vauge words when they confuse me - it's a nice and fluffy feeling inside I'd love to share with the rest of the world
05:08	Licenser	what I mean is after a while stuffing things in the REPL and requiering and using stuff I seem to be unable to revert it to a clean state by using (remove-ns ...)
05:11	Licenser	so I wonder if there is a way to keep it clean or at least arranged in a way that makes it easy to remove it again when I change stuff around
05:11	Licenser
05:25	mebaran151	how do I make parenmatch highlighting default
05:27	spariev	mebaran151: (show-paren-mode 1) in .emacs
05:29	mebaran151	it's nice
05:29	spariev	mebaran151: btw. have you seen awesome screencast by Lau on slime/emacs http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/clojure-101-getting-clojure-slime-installed/
05:30	mebaran151	can't watch screencasts: no soundcard :(
05:31	esj	mebaran151: the link I posted earlier works too.
05:31	esj	(he uses Ubuntu, i'm osx with aquamacs and it still works)
05:32	mebaran151	I'm on Ubuntu
05:32	mebaran151	what link?
05:32	spariev	mebaran151: anyway, there is his .emacs in that post with lots of useful emacs-fu
05:32	mebaran151	ah yeah I saw it
05:36	Raynes	Laurent is an Emacs God.
05:37	Licenser	when I do a require :reload will that concatinate to all the require's in the file I require?
05:39	esj	i think its :reload-all ? But I may be imagining.
05:40	Licenser	esj: way thank you!
05:40	esj	np
05:43	Licenser	this is going to save me lots of trouble
05:43	timothypratley	Anyone here know the internals of lein repl? If I delete clojure-contrib from the libs dir... the repl still has access to contrib somehow....
05:44	timothypratley	it must be loading its own version somehow but I'm not sure where to start looking.
05:54	G0SUB	timothypratley: any news?
05:56	timothypratley	GOSUB: I've established that the problem occurs using lein, but not without, but still trying to figure out why.
05:58	timothypratley	GOSUB: I'm a bit stuck because I can't seem to substitute a debug contrib to lein, which I was hoping would provide the clues.
05:59	timothypratley	GOSUB: But I'm sure the answer is not far away :)
06:02	Raynes	What would be a better way to write this: (dosync (alter stack #(cons 2 %)))
06:03	Raynes	cons' argument list doesn't allow me to just do cons 2.
06:05	G0SUB	timothypratley: cool.
06:07	G0SUB	timothypratley: but why, oh why? everything is in classpath, alright.
06:08	G0SUB	timothypratley: and oh, it happens inside slime repl too. not just lein repl. (using clojure-project)
06:12	timothypratley	GOSUB: That's handy to know!!!
06:12	timothypratley	GOSUB: The test I did with a custom REPL was using latest contrib/clojure
06:13	timothypratley	GOSUB: When I do custom REPL with the jars from lein/lib dir.... problem occurs
06:14	timothypratley	GOSUB: I'm starting to think this is an old bug that got fixed (hence why we couldn't see it in the source)
06:18	Licenser	hmm hmm, when I get a clojure stack trace that and there is not a single of my own functions in the trace does that mean clojure is eating it up or does it mean the error happens outside of the function calls of mine?
06:38	G0SUB	timothypratley: any idea what the bug might be ?
06:43	timothypratley	GOSUB: Nope, I'll post what I've found on the group - but in terms of solving your problem I think you'll have to stick with (log4j-logging) for now
06:44	G0SUB	timothypratley: that fact that it's private makes matters worse
06:47	timothypratley	GOSUB: nod yup
06:48	Licenser	hmm I think to think I have some odd bug in the printer o.O
06:50	Raynes	Also, this was the better way: (defn flip [f] (fn [& args] (apply f (reverse args))))
06:51	Raynes	Followed by, (dosync (alter stack (flip cons) x)))
06:51	Raynes	Flip is probably already defined in core, but I couldn't find it.
06:52	Chousuke	it's not.
06:53	Licenser	ah I know what it comes from, lazyness :D
06:54	Raynes	Chousuke: Cool, I did something right! :D
06:54	Raynes	Chousuke: I'm used to using flip in Haskell, so it was the obvious solution here.
07:00	mebaran151	anybody here know the transaction syntax for clojureql?
07:05	hamza	hey guys, is it possible to write a function to file? just like using pr to write objects to a file? I would like to have function modify it a bit then write the new function to a file?
07:09	mebaran151	I don't think it is natively, but I have a coworker that has a macro that almost does it
07:09	mebaran151	as in, what do you mean by write it file: if it's a clojure, the variables might refer to things you wouldn't think of
07:10	hamza	(prn [2 3]) using this with with-out-str would give me string represantation of the vector that i can write to a file and read it back later, i would like to do same for a function.
07:11	mebaran151	but a function isn't simple like a data-structure
07:11	mebaran151	it's variables are bound to its environment
07:11	mebaran151	to really serialize a function, you'd have serialize its environment as well
07:12	mebaran151	if you just want the actual representation, you could write a macro that would take the function forms as a list of symbols and writes them somewhere
07:14	timothypratley	GOSUB: I'm off to bed, have posted about the problem http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/79c609df3632a5d1, hopefully someone will be able to suggest a better solution.
07:15	hamza	yeah i am after the actual represantation..
07:20	optimizer	is RAII possible in clojure?
07:22	somnium	hamza: you could try something like this http://gist.github.com/275149
07:28	hamza	am i missing something? (defn-src atest [] (println "test")) i am getting unable to resolve symbol body?
07:30	somnium	hamza: ah, the tilde is wrong in the gist, updated it
07:31	hamza	somnium: greate thanks a lot just what i was looking for..
07:35	defn	When I add a dependency to leiningen, where does it all pull from?
07:35	defn	I see some people adding things like org.markdownj/markdownj to their project.clj, but it's not in the repo anywhere
07:35	defn	the clojars repo i mean
07:36	LauJensen	I would guess it checks Maven Central
07:36	Raynes	defn: It pulls from Maven Central, Clojars, and clojure-snapshots as far as I can tell.
07:36	defn	thanks LauJensen -- didnt know what to google on that
07:37	Raynes	defn: clojure-snapshots would be build.clojure.org/snapshots
07:37	defn	hmm, wtf is this markdownj coming from
07:37	defn	[org.markdownj/markdownj "0.3.0-1.0.2b4"]
07:37	defn	it's not in maven2 or in clojars
07:38	Raynes	I'm pretty sure it's in maven central.
07:38	defn	you would think, but i go into maven2/org/...
07:38	defn	and no markdownj
07:40	defn	ah-ha!
07:40	defn	http://code.google.com/p/markdownj/wiki/Maven
07:41	defn	i need to add a repository to markdown as a dependency and then i can get it
07:41	defn	whoa im tired
07:41	Raynes	Add a repository to markdown as a dependency?
07:41	defn	i need to add a repository in my project.clj and then i can get it
07:42	defn	yeah sorry about that, that is just incomprehensible
07:42	Raynes	How do you add a repository to project.clj? ;o
07:42	LauJensen	defn, did you check out my latest blogpost where in I show how to add your own jars to a lein config?
07:43	Raynes	LauJensen: Link pwease.
07:43	LauJensen	www.bestinclass.dk
07:43	defn	LauJensen: i didnt see that but im interested
07:43	LauJensen	click blog - click top post
07:43	defn	leiningen is still a strange mistress to me
07:44	defn	i can do some basics like :dev-dependencies, :dependencies, :main, but havent messed with any others
07:44	Raynes	LauJensen: I referred to you as an Emacs God earlier. Do I get points?
07:44	Raynes	:p
07:45	LauJensen	No, but because of your good motives I wont slap you for blasphemy
07:45	defn	dude LauJensen ! I stop checking my RSS feeds for 5 days and you manage to put a ton of awesome content up
07:45	defn	also, you are an emacs god, your videos showed me about fuzzy completion in slime
07:45	defn	:)
07:45	LauJensen	Yea the Hadoop stuff is pretty fun
07:45	LauJensen	I hope to do some massive image processing soon :)
07:46	defn	im excited about the enlive stuff
07:46	defn	i read up on it, but im still not 100% on how to use it
07:46	LauJensen	anyway, gotta duck out a little while, will be back in 5 hours or so
07:47	defn	LauJensen: what's clojure-mode-el?
07:47	defn	is it el or clojure-mode-l?
07:47	LauJensen	clojure-mode.el
07:47	LauJensen	The Emacs Lisp file which contains Clojure-mode
07:47	defn	oh -- gotcha
07:49	defn	LauJensen: i had no idea how to do a keyboard macro on a region
07:49	defn	that rules
07:50	defn	ive just been doing C-u 20 C-x e
07:50	defn	or whatever, to do multiple lines
07:51	defn	where i make sure to put a M-x next-line
07:51	defn	and M-x beginning-of-line
07:52	defn	LauJensen: using enlive to get those function is nice and all, but couldn't you just use ns-publics?
07:53	LauJensen	Yes of course - But how would you show off Enlive doing that?
07:53	defn	:D
07:54	defn	LauJensen: i have an odd request for a video
07:54	LauJensen	The important part is the (info ...) - that way you can fix stuff yourself
07:54	LauJensen	Whats the request?
07:54	defn	i want to see 2 hours of emacs + clojure with no particular theme, just you working on "stuff"
07:55	defn	that includes switching windows, looking stuff up, etc.
07:55	LauJensen	Ah
07:55	LauJensen	I don't think I'll do 2 hours, but I might do a compilation of sorts to give an idea of the workflow, a little similar to the webdevelopment video
07:55	defn	yeah that'd be cool
07:55	defn	id also like to know more about organizing clojure projects
07:56	defn	like with a webapp im messing with, im having a very hard time separating functionality out into separate files
07:56	defn	since they all seem to rely on one another
07:57	LauJensen	Ok - I really need to duck out now, but I'll think it over. I also have a tool in mind for organizing projects, but more on that later :)
07:58	defn	sounds good, thanks again
07:59	LauJensen	np
08:06	esj	defn: nice requests, I could use that stuff too.
08:07	gerr	hello
08:07	gerr	what's wrong with this: (defprotocol Show (show [x]))
08:08	gerr	(deftype Person [name age] Show (show [x] (str (:name x) (:age x))))
08:08	gerr	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: show (NO_SOURCE_FILE:2)
08:09	gerr	,(defprotocol Show (show [x]))
08:09	clojurebot	DENIED
08:14	defn	esj: ive been thinking a lot about organization
08:14	defn	esj: i think it's important to pay attention to the type that a function returns
08:14	Raynes	gerr: http://gist.github.com/275175
08:14	Raynes	gerr: Sorry for the delay.
08:14	esj	defn: me too actually, getting things properly structured is a good part of the battle.
08:14	gerr	Raynes: ok
08:15	Raynes	It appears that 'this' is implicit.
08:15	defn	so for instance, a "controller" function in my compojure app can return anything, EXCEPT html
08:15	defn	instead of making some function (defn gen-page [] (html (interpose .......)))
08:15	Raynes	gerr: You can access the fields of the type directly in the protocol functions.
08:15	defn	you just put the (html x) part into a layout file
08:16	Raynes	I didn't realize that initially earlier, and had hell with it.
08:16	gerr	Raynes: but in defprotocol, i still need one arg?
08:16	Raynes	gerr: Yes.
08:16	Raynes	It's 'this'.
08:17	gerr	hmm, thx
08:17	{newbie}	deftype? is clojure gaining an builtin OO system?
08:18	Raynes	{newbie}: Not really. No more than Haskell has an OOP system because of it's algebraic datatypes.
08:18	cemerick	~deftype?
08:18	clojurebot	deftype is see datatype
08:18	cemerick	~datatype?
08:18	clojurebot	datatype is see datatypes
08:18	cemerick	~datatypes?
08:18	clojurebot	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes
08:18	cemerick	sheesh
08:18	cemerick	{newbie}: see ^^
08:19	Raynes	gerr: Note you can do this `(deftype Person [name age] :as x Show (show [] [x] (str name age)))' if you want to access 'this' directly.
08:19	{newbie}	OH, I'm reading programming clojure right now so I'm a couple of revs behind
08:19	Raynes	s/directly/explicitly/
08:20	gerr	Raynes: ..(Show [] [x]..) two arg list is abit odd
08:21	Raynes	gerr: Also, see the examples in (doc defprotocol)
08:21	gerr	ok
08:23	rhickey	so, who's written code that depends on defmacro creating (internally) a fn with the same signature?
08:23	Raynes	gerr: The resulting functions from defprotocol dispatch on their first argument, and that's why they have to have at least one argument.
08:24	gerr	Raynes: i see
08:34	Raynes	Somebody needs to write a book and host it for free online, like Real World Haskell.
08:38	cemerick	vy: functions in BNF?
08:38	cemerick	overkill for sexprs, no?
08:39	_fogus_	cemerick: I don't know about BNF, but the format that the CLIPS user manual uses for its functions is pretty nice.
08:39	vy	cemerick: In some sort of BNF, for instance, CLHS is quite in this area.
08:39	vy	s/quite/quite good/
08:39	vy	_fogus_: +1
08:41	_fogus_	Chouser and I have adopted a similar format for our book
08:46	chouser	rhickey: now that's an interesting question. what are you up to?
08:47	chouser	I don't have any real code like that.
08:47	chouser	Should 'restart' be named 'restart-agent'?
08:47	cemerick	seems like a bad idea in general
08:49	chouser	I guess if you were trying to write your own (modified?) version of macroexpand or something.
08:49	rhickey	chouser: I'm thinking of supplying 2 more implicit args to defmacro expansion fns - &env and &whole
08:50	chouser	ooh
08:50	rhickey	cemerick: right, I consider any such code as relying on implementation details
08:50	rhickey	and thus subject to breakage
08:51	rhickey	the latter, &whole, might be the path for fn metadata
08:54	rhickey	&env will preclude the implementation-dep inside things like local-bindings here: http://gist.github.com/254110
09:28	midget	Hey.
09:28	midget	Do you know how to twist on the knife?
09:28	midget	I can`t make it right - always cut myself
09:30	esj	well, that would be a mutating operation, so we can't help you there.
09:31	Drakeson	how do you add a repository to the 3 default ones in leiningen?
09:32	Drakeson	for instance, I want to add http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/maven2
10:01	lisppaste8	someone-stuck-behind-a-mean-proxy pasted "+1 for a supported way to access the environment in macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93280
10:19	Raynes	Drakeson: :repositories
10:21	Raynes	Of course, there isn't any example of how to actually use that, so I can't help you there.
10:54	chouser	,({(int 5) :ok} (long 5) :not-ok)
10:58	chouser	,({(int 5) :ok} (long 5) :not-ok)
10:58	clojurebot	:not-ok
10:59	chouser	can we use Clojure's = instead of Java's .equals() for map key comparison?
10:59	chouser	this just bit me hard.
11:05	cemerick	1.equals(1L) is false ?!? Crazy.
11:05	rhickey	chouser: not without breaking the contract of j.u.Map
11:07	chouser	arararagag
11:10	chouser	I just spent longer than I'd care to admit tracking down a map lookup failure.
11:11	chouser	the keys of the map are complex nested maps and vectors, and printing the map keys and the item I was looking up showed they printed identically.
11:11	cemerick	that's not friendly at all.
11:12	chouser	so then I added debugging code to walk through the map, and discovered that the key and lookup value were =
11:12	rhickey	chouser: how did you end up with a long?
11:12	chouser	checking that now. I think the long came from a protobuf
11:13	cemerick	pr should probably attach suffixes to numbers as long as stuff like this is possible.
11:13	cemerick	or, optionally so, perhaps
11:13	chouser	yeah, I think that was it. some of these maps are converted to protobufs and back. so this one went in as an int and came out a long
11:14	chouser	but then I looked it up using the original int
11:15	chouser	I even knew about the problem with different number types as map keys, and still didn't "get" it
11:15	chouser	,(= (int 5) (long 5))
11:15	clojurebot	true
11:16	chouser	,(= (hash (int 5)) (hash (long 5)))
11:16	clojurebot	true
11:18	rhickey	this is an area with no universally good answer
11:18	chouser	no kidding
11:18	chouser	well
11:18	rhickey	as long as you can have different types represent the same value
11:18	chouser	.equals() could be potentially do the "right thing" couldn't it?
11:19	rhickey	you mean if JAva changed it?
11:19	chouser	right
11:19	chouser	I guess it still couldn't support new number types like Ratio
11:19	rhickey	what about (.equals 1 1.0) ?
11:20	chouser	I understand that's a question that would come up, but this morning the difference between 1.0 and (int 1) seems much bigger than the difference between (int 1) and (long 1)
11:20	chouser	because they print differently, I would have spotted 1.0 much sooner.
11:21	chouser	Of course I'd hate for either ints or longs to print with decorations be default
11:21	chouser	and I wouldn't have thought of trying a non-default print option until after I'd identified the real problem.
11:22	chouser	print-dup already prints them differently
11:22	chouser	didn't even occur to me to try that.
11:23	cemerick	stuff like this is going to cause so much pain when people start seriously targeting other hosts
11:23	Spockz\|lap	stuff like what?
11:30	stuartsierra	,(.equals (long 1) (int 1))
11:30	clojurebot	false
11:30	arohner	chouser: yeah, that problem bit me hard a few months ago
11:31	arohner	different printing would have helped me catch it much sooner
11:31	stuartsierra	,(with-out-str (binding [print-dup true] (pr (long 1) (int 1))))
11:31	clojurebot	"#=(java.lang.Long. \"1\") 1"
11:31	arohner	what's the problem with making longs print as "1L" or whatever?
11:31	chouser	ugly
11:32	stuartsierra	Isn't that what Java's long syntax uses?
11:32	chouser	but maybe it'd be worth it.
11:32	arohner	that's not very convincing to me when we already print 1.0 and 1M
11:32	stuartsierra	,(pr-str 12345678901234567890)
11:32	clojurebot	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
11:33	stuartsierra	,(pr-str (BigInteger. "12345678901234567890"))
11:33	clojurebot	"12345678901234567890"
11:33	stuartsierra	,(binding [print-dup true] (pr-str (BigInteger. "12345678901234567890")))
11:33	clojurebot	"#=(java.math.BigInteger. \"12345678901234567890\")"
11:33	cemerick	1L is a lot prettier than #=(java.lang.Long. "1")
11:34	chouser	heh. true.
11:34	cemerick	I'd love to have literals like that in general, to avoid stuff like (int 1)
11:35	stuartsierra	Yes, Java uses 1L for (long 1).
11:37	chouser	(int 1) also means primitive in some contexts. I assume 1I or whatever wouldn't?
11:38	stuartsierra	chouser: probably not
11:38	stuartsierra	1L would probably mean (java.lang.Long. "1") to the Clojure reader.
11:39	arohner	why not?
11:39	arohner	it probably doesn't now, but why couldn't it?
11:40	stuartsierra	I guess it could, in a 'loop' head.
11:40	cemerick	1L should just expand out to (long 1), which will get boxed as necessary anyway
11:40	arohner	the reader reads 1M appropriately, so I don't see why it can't do 1L just as easily
11:42	stuartsierra	cemerick: that assumes that "L" is a reader macro
11:43	cemerick	stuartsierra: it should probably be considered something lower-level than that. Not dispatching on #, etc.
11:44	cemerick	the reader can emit whatever symbols it wants as its tokenizing
11:56	rhickey	Long-term (pardon the pun) I think longs and doubles will win out as defaults, making ints as rare as shorts
11:56	stuartsierra	rhickey: That wouldn't have prevented chouser's original problem caused by interop with protobuf.
11:56	rhickey	stuartsierra: sure it would, if Clojure never boxed to Integer, only to Long
11:57	stuartsierra	Until some other library decides to down-cast long to int!
11:57	rhickey	stuartsierra: but only boxed things end up as map keys
11:58	rhickey	so back to Long on box
11:58	stuartsierra	Ah, I think I see
11:58	stuartsierra	In other words, there wouldn't be any auto-boxed java.lang.Integer
11:58	rhickey	in my do-over universe, Clojure integer literals would be longs that did exception on overflow. The only other interger would be explicitly-requested bigints
11:58	stuartsierra	Just java.lang.Long
11:59	leafw	considering the overhead of an Object, whether it has a long or an int inside will make little difference. I'd go for having only boxed Long as well.
11:59	stuartsierra	rhickey: But aren't automatic integer upgrades a cornestone of Lisp? :)
12:00	rhickey	stuartsierra: I now consider that a mistake for Lisps
12:00	stuartsierra	Huh, interesting.
12:01	rhickey	I agree that 'bad math' is unacceptable, but exception on overflow is fine, as long as explicit bigints are there and contagious
12:01	cemerick	sort of inevitable given hardware history
12:02	chouser	interesting
12:02	rhickey	In DotLisp I did exception on overflow, and it is better for 95% of the use cases
12:03	rhickey	If you know you will have bigints, use 42BIG (or whatever)
12:03	chouser	but a protobuf can emit a boxed Integer too -- that would be the same problem in reverse.
12:03	rhickey	chouser: a boxed integer how?
12:03	rhickey	user boxing?
12:03	rhickey	reflection?
12:04	chouser	oh
12:04	rhickey	if the lang only does Long boxes, and fixes reflection boxes, then only user boxing is an issue
12:05	rhickey	oh, and Java-land boxing
12:05	chouser	right, it's coming from java-land
12:05	rhickey	the Java wrapper for protobufs boxes?
12:06	LauJensen	So the compiler will handle all incoming Ints being cast to longs and the same outgoing if need be ?
12:06	rhickey	rather than generating classes with primitive fields?
12:06	chouser	oh, i see what you're saying. let me check.
12:13	chouser	the generated methods return primitives, but I'm building the clojure map from a java.util.Map
12:13	chouser	so it's java or protobuf doing the boxking, not Clojure
12:14	djpowell	if someone calls (mymacro String), is there anyway to resolve the symbol: String in that macro, into the class object: java.lang.String
12:14	chouser	,(resolve 'String)
12:14	clojurebot	java.lang.String
12:14	djpowell	ah
12:17	rhickey	chouser: when Java is boxing you will always have to manually do matching of types. But at least with Longs-only on the Clojure side you would rarely have this problem in Clojure code, whereas it is a current issue
12:17	rhickey	every now and the I contemplate these changes, but dread the pushback
12:17	rhickey	breakage
12:18	chouser	yeah. In this case, I have a loop that's converting and can easily adjust the number type.
12:18	chouser	but what should I adjust to? with your proposed change, it would be easy: Long.
12:18	rhickey	right
12:19	chouser	today, I guess I'll want to convert to the minimal acceptible type. is there a fn for that?
12:19	rhickey	also, longs are on the table to get primitive arg/return support
12:19	rhickey	chouser: so 1 is Byte?
12:19	chouser	:-(
12:20	rhickey	exactly
12:20	chouser	no, I want to match what Clojure would do for a similar literal
12:20	chouser	so that when the protobut has {5 10]
12:20	chouser	so that when the protobut has {5 10} and I type {5 10} in the code, they match
12:20	chouser	eh
12:21	chouser	maybe. Either that, or I want to manually cast to longs in my hand-built maps to match the declared types of the protobuf fields.
12:21	chouser	both sound like trouble.
12:22	rhickey	if Clojure defaulted to Long, I'd be happy printing all others with suffixes
12:23	rhickey	but the fact is, in Java, if you put a boxed long 42 into a map key and lookup a literal 42 you won't find it
12:23	rhickey	that is the map you are building and handing to Clojure
12:24	rhickey	basically, types matter when numbers are used as keys
12:25	rhickey	Java could have made different decisions in the boxed number tower, but that's water under the bridge
12:26	rhickey	so, Long integers by default, exceptions on overflow, suffixes for all others?
12:27	chouser	I'm on board.
12:27	chouser	:-)
12:27	cemerick	very happy about Longs and suffixes
12:28	rhickey	cemerick: and on overflow?
12:28	chouser	who are these people that cause you pain when you make beneficial breaking changes.
12:28	chouser	?
12:28	cemerick	rhickey: aren't things going to get promoted automatically anyway?
12:28	chouser	and can I have a little one-on-one time with them?
12:28	rhickey	I hardly ever make breaking changes
12:28	rhickey	cemerick: no, that's the change
12:29	chouser	I know. because you fear these bullies. ;-)
12:30	rhickey	what's funny is that, in spite of rarely making breaking changes, still sometimes get dinged for Clojure changing so fast, even though it's largely additions
12:31	rhickey	cemerick: it ends up that promotion from primitive to boxed (BigInteger) is a primary perf disaster
12:31	rhickey	cemerick: because on the bytecode level no single type can hold both
12:31	cemerick	clearly, I don't do enough maths
12:31	cemerick	,(-> Integer/MAX_VALUE inc)
12:31	clojurebot	2147483648
12:32	cemerick	that's interesting -- that fails in my repl with an overflow
12:32	rhickey	here too
12:33	cemerick	anyway, that (sometimes?!?!?) fails, but this is OK currently:
12:33	cemerick	,(-> Integer/MAX_VALUE Integer. inc)
12:33	clojurebot	2147483648
12:33	chouser	((identity inc) Integer/MAX_VALUE)
12:34	_fogus_	Are we playing, avoid the overflow exception game?
12:34	rhickey	but Integer/MAX_VALUE is tricky as you are already into Java primitive rules
12:35	cemerick	rhickey: so, insofar as I obviously don't know what the overflow rules are currently, I can't see how I could have a defensible position (or opinion, even) on changing them :-)
12:36	rhickey	cemerick: with no Java interop in play, the rules are the traditional lisp ones - unbounded integers
12:36	cemerick	,(inc (int 2147483647))
12:36	clojurebot	2147483648
12:37	rhickey	the change would be that unqualified integers would be longs, and would throw on overflow rather than auto-convert to bigints
12:37	cemerick	I'm really curious about why clojurebot isn't erroring on that.
12:37	cemerick	oh, I see
12:38	cemerick	rhickey: if it's primarily a perf issue, I wonder if it's at all possible to opt out of autoconversion, rather than opting into it.
12:40	lpetit	Hello, is it normal to have an ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException throw from clojure.lang code, more precisely PersistentArrayMap$Seq.first() (line 217) ?
12:40	chouser	lpetit: when you give a non-even number of items in a literal {}, yes.
12:41	chouser	cemerick: but it's not just perf, I think -- it's problems like the one I just had.
12:41	lpetit	Ah, but here first() is called from APersistentMap.hashCode() (line 101) which is called from APersistentMap.equals() (line 60) which is called from java code
12:42	chouser	,{1}
12:42	clojurebot	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1
12:42	lpetit	,(equals {1} {2})
12:42	clojurebot	1
12:43	lpetit	,(= {1} {2})
12:43	clojurebot	1
12:43	chouser	,(first {1})
12:43	clojurebot	1
12:43	lpetit	,{1}
12:43	clojurebot	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1
12:43	chouser	noo
12:43	chouser	,(val (first {1}))
12:43	clojurebot	1
12:43	chouser	no! those are failing for me.
12:43	lpetit	gargl
12:43	lpetit	(clojure-version)
12:44	lpetit	,(clojure-version)
12:44	clojurebot	"1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT"
12:44	chouser	anyway, those maps are invalid. Don't do that.
12:44	chouser	lunch.
12:44	cemerick	chouser: how does overflow impact the issue of concrete types of map keys?
12:44	lpetit	Well, it's from something read by the reader from a user source code editor ...
12:45	lpetit	So the reader seems to not complain, and the exception is throw later
12:45	lpetit	(doc read-string)
12:45	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
12:45	lpetit	,(read-string "{1}")
12:45	clojurebot	1
12:45	lpetit	,(read-string "{1 2}")
12:45	clojurebot	{1 2}
12:46	lpetit	,(read-string "{1}")
12:46	clojurebot	1
12:46	lpetit	ok clojurebot is fooling us there
12:48	unfo-	any help to why my join-channel function is not being called? https://gist.github.com/5005a3004cf58b1b7df3
12:49	lpetit	Anyway, I now know how and where to catch the problem, thanks
12:52	stuartsierra	rhickey: Personally, I think rapid change is good IF it comes with a predictable cycle of stable releases
12:54	cemerick	stuartsierra: absolutely. Everything can get broken in the process of being improved as long as there's a tag for a stable build in clojure and contrib.
12:57	stuartsierra	I'm working on Contrib.
12:59	stuartsierra	And I think Clojure itself needs more releases. 1.1 added a whole pile of stuff that could have been let out incrementally.
12:59	cemerick	more tests + a maven repo + build process would make weekly releases entirely plausible, if warranted.
13:00	stuartsierra	Maybe not weekly, but at least every 6 months. Weekly would be a lot of extra work for rhickey.
13:01	cemerick	Shouldn't be. mvn release:prepare release:perform, and you're done. shrug
13:02	cemerick	I'm probably not seeing a lot of stuff that is happening around release time.
13:03	stuartsierra	cemerick: Not until we have a Maven build for Clojure. That's another mountain to climb.
13:04	cemerick	stuartsierra: we'll have to bag rhickey first. ;-)
13:07	stuartsierra	right
13:25	unfo-	if I have some data in a struct and I get it via (:somekey @mysharedstuff) how could i (in repl) get info about its type?
13:26	Chousuke	well, you can call class on it
13:27	technomancy	unfo-: C-c S-i gives you a nice inspector if you're using slime
13:28	unfo-	technomancy, nope, not using it since emacs is bizarre to me :) coding with IDEA and standard REPL
13:28	technomancy	then I guess you need to use the class function
13:29	unfo-	ty
13:40	patrkris	LauJensen: is it possible to say to clojureql that utf8 must be used when connecting to mysql?
13:41	LauJensen	patrkris: I'm pretty sure its an attribute of the driver, but we haven't wrapped it. You might be able to specify it directly on the connection-string
13:42	LauJensen	Uuh check it out, Clojure almost in top10 again on Hacker News :)
13:43	patrkris	patrkris: are you suggesting I modify the jdbc-url on the map returned by make-connection, or is there another way to specify the connection string directly?
13:43	LauJensen	patrkris: Gimme a sec I'll check
13:43	patrkris	LauJensen: thanks
13:44	LauJensen	patrkris: In the URL set "//localhost/db&characterEncoding=UTF-8"
13:44	LauJensen	2.nd argument to make-connection-info
13:44	patrkris	LauJensen: coolio, thanks
13:45	unfo-	fffffuuuuu! I had a samename struct as I had a local variable in a few places... great confusion
13:46	hiredman	use ’
13:46	hiredman	or <x>
13:52	unfo-	https://gist.github.com/5005a3004cf58b1b7df3 -- why does my map fail?
13:52	hiredman	map is lazy
13:53	unfo-	aaaaah! didn't know that
13:53	unfo-	so I need to use a do* function there? the doall or wotnot
13:53	unfo-	or was it dorun
13:53	hiredman	sure, you might just replace the call to map with a call to doseq
13:53	unfo-	ok. thanks!
13:54	hiredman	doseq is like for, but not lazy, and it evaluates to nil
13:54	LauJensen	hehe
13:54	LauJensen	"doseq is not like for because..." :)
13:56	LauJensen	Does anybody know where _ato Alex Osborne is hiding these days?
14:02	unfo-	(dorun (map myfun mylist)) worked wonders :-)
14:03	unfo-	hiredman, even tho' I read the lazy/infinite sequences chapter quite well in my view (from programming clojure) i still managed to forget that map is lazy... doh :D
14:03	unfo-	hiredman, very much appreciated! :)
14:05	technomancy	clojurebot: map?
14:05	clojurebot	map is LAZY
14:07	unfo-	:-)
14:08	unfo-	REPL is deceptive in this because it gives me the result I am expecting immediately
14:09	LauJensen	Yea I've been tripped up by that as well
14:09	unfo-	but now for something completely different after I submit this patch to my github
14:11	mebaran151	I think I'm finally comfortable in emacs
14:11	mebaran151	my penance for accidentally deleting my homedir is completed
14:12	LauJensen	hqhq
14:12	LauJensen	i mean... haha :)
14:12	mebaran151	eah
14:12	mebaran151	I'm gonna stick around
14:12	mebaran151	I got the the layout I like, and tab completed bufffers are kind of groovy
14:12	mebaran151	I'm just looking for a good window manager now
14:13	mebaran151	as in a quick way to switch between emacs panes
14:13	LauJensen	C-x b, aint working?
14:13	mebaran151	I mean
14:13	mebaran151	I have three different windows open
14:13	mebaran151	I'd like to switch between the repl and a pane
14:13	mebaran151	of doc editing really fast
14:14	LauJensen	C-x o ?
14:14	mebaran151	well it's a little basic
14:14	technomancy	mebaran151: C-c C-z switches to the repl from any clojure buffer
14:14	mebaran151	but what about switching back :)
14:14	technomancy	I don't know if there's a reverse
14:14	mebaran151	yeah
14:14	mebaran151	I'd like something a little more general
14:14	mebaran151	forwards and backwards
14:14	mebaran151	I'd also like an undo that doesn't make me cry
14:14	ska2342	mebaran151: checkout iswitchb, mtorus, windmove and windresize
14:15	LauJensen	mebaran151: the undo makes you cry? I really like it
14:15	technomancy	emacs' undo mechanism is carefully architected in order to avoid creating time-travel paradoxes
14:15	technomancy	trust me, you really don't want to have to think about what happens when alternate timelines interact.
14:16	mebaran151	I haven't successfully undone yet
14:16	mebaran151	hg rollback!
14:16	mebaran151	hg revert
14:16	ska2342	mebaran151: you can setup a slime-selector-method for switching between clojure code files and the repl, back and forth
14:16	mebaran151	ah that was another questiong
14:17	mebaran151	how do I control where the slime error pane renders itself
14:17	chouser	vim undo lets you go to any version of the file since you opened it -- even branches that have been undone.
14:17	LauJensen	Its fun I was trying to remember what I do for undo/redo, but I cant remember it directly, I have to read it from my fingers first
14:17	chouser	just fyi
14:18	mebaran151	chouser, I'm a big vim fan
14:19	mebaran151	it's the only thing I use for sysadmin
14:20	technomancy	there's no way to calculate an md5 sum of a file without slurping it all into memory, is there?
14:20	technomancy	unless you shell out or something
14:20	ska2342	mebaran151: I seem to remember to get the slime selector method from Bill Clementson, here: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/docs/clojure-emacs.el
14:21	chouser	technomancy: it doesn't all have to be in memory at once
14:22	Chousuke	technomancy: IIRC you can feed the MD5 calculator thingy data in chunks
14:22	mebaran151	yeah so I remembered
14:22	mebaran151	I think it takes an input stream
14:25	technomancy	aha, you can call "update" on it with just a few bytes. sweet.
14:26	humphrej	I've got a clojure syntax question..
14:26	mebaran151	heh, playing in Erc
14:26	mebaran151	this is actually a far more convenient way to ask coding questions
14:26	Hun	mebaran151: try rcirc. it feels more clean :)
14:26	humphrej	I don't think In understand binding
14:27	mebaran151	can I get it from packages?
14:27	humphrej	http://pastebin.com/d727cc1bd
14:27	Hun	it's included by default since emacs22
14:27	Hun	M-x irc
14:27	humphrej	My question is why do I get the error if the set! is within the map func
14:28	chouser	humphrej: you probably understand 'binding' ok -- the problem there is that map is lazy
14:28	chouser	so the code in your fn isn't executed until the resulting seq is printed by the repl, after you've left the 'binding' scope.
14:29	humphrej	I see - it does work if I enclose everything in a huge binding
14:29	humphrej	inc the usage of the lazy seq
14:30	chouser	right. or realize the seq before leaving the binding you've got.
14:30	cemerick	is there any way to configure a var so that one can set! a value to it without having a binding in place? Seems like doing (binding [foo foo] ...) shouldn't be necessary if one wants to use a var to provide returns/status/etc outside the stack.
14:31	chouser	humphrej: via 'doall' for example.
14:32	humphrej	reason I ask is that I found this page http://www.findinglisp.com/blog/2004/11/investing-with-lisp.html
14:32	humphrej	and was wondering the best way to implement the make-history-function in clojure
14:34	humphrej	I was thinking keeping it lazy would be nice as then the source seq could be a seque or somesuch
14:34	rhickey	cemerick: what happens in other threads?
14:35	fliebel	Can someone answer me this very simple question: How do I empty a vector in an agent?
14:35	cemerick	rhickey: in my ideal world, nothing -- it seems that set! should be a no-op (not an error) on a var that has no binding.
14:36	rhickey	cemerick: I'm confused - what's the use case?
14:37	cemerick	rhickey: I have a fn that has a status code, which is generally uninteresting. When a caller is interested in that status code, I'd like them to be able to bind on that var, and check it when they want.
14:38	cemerick	I just think it's irritating to have to wrap my fn impl in (binding [foo foo] ...) in order to set! that occasionally-interesting status code
14:38	chouser	fliebel: (send empty agt) ?
14:38	ska2342	cemerick: wrap it in a try catch in your fn?
14:39	cemerick	ska2342: surely you're joking :-P
14:39	ska2342	cemerick: Hm, I'm not so sure.. Going back to the REPL for a moment to try this
14:39	fliebel	chouser: I did not think of the possibility that such a stupid function would be in core.
14:40	cemerick	ska2342: oh, I'm sure it'll work, but that's hardcore ugly.
14:41	rhickey	fliebel: what's stupid about empty ?
14:41	chouser	fliebel: it's actually quite important to allow fns to support a variety of collections.
14:41	ska2342	cemerick: uglier than changing the behaviour of a special form for a rare use-case?
14:41	chouser	(into (empty x) (map f x)) is such a nice pattern that lots of people want it to be a fn of its own. :-)
14:42	qbg	cemerick: That would be solved beautifully with multiple return values
14:42	cemerick	ska2342: not so rare, IMO, but regardless, uglier than what's necessary now
14:42	fliebel	rhickey: Nothing really, but I could not imagine a use case where you would want to return an empty sequence. Since stuff is immutable anyway I'd just use [].
14:42	ska2342	yay, multiple-value-bind, here we come :-)
14:42	rhickey	cemerick: I'll admit that use case is not well supported, but unsure about set! of unbound as no-op
14:42	chouser	humphrej: I'd actually recommend strongly against using a var for your histry in this case.
14:43	chouser	humphrej: you might be interested in 'partition'
14:43	chouser	,(partition 3 1 (range 10))
14:43	clojurebot	((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6) (5 6 7) (6 7 8) (7 8 9))
14:43	cemerick	qbg: if I wanted that, I could simply return a vector from the fn in question
14:44	ska2342	cemerick: currently the users of your fn will have to establish a binding, even if not interested in the status. I'd consider it nicer from the user standpoint if it were wrapped in an ignore-errors-like form
14:44	cemerick	rhickey: just a thought -- I've just written the (binding ...) workaround three times this afternoon, so I figured I'd bring it up.
14:44	mebaran151	any of you guys use eproject or nav?
14:45	chouser	cemerick: what's the type of the object you return (not the binding one, the main one)?
14:45	cemerick	ska2342: no, the current best-practice is for the author of such fns to bind the var to its existing value so that set!'s work, but have no effect. This only affects library authors, not users.
14:46	cemerick	chouser: a map, but the status code in question in this fn is an int that's only of interest 4-5 levels up the stack
14:46	cemerick	chouser: it's actually perfect for error-kit, but too simple of a problem to use error-kit for :-)
14:46	rhickey	cemerick: if you bind in the setting fn, that won't make it out of the binding
14:46	chouser	heh. every problem is too simple to use error-kit for
14:47	chouser	cemerick: having the ignore-on-unbound-set configurable (non-default) is a bit interesting.
14:48	ska2342	this sounds more like a thread-local atom, not?
14:48	rhickey	cemerick: you could test that the var is bound before trying to set!
14:48	chouser	you want naive misuse of var and set! to be flagged with an error, but if you specifically ask for such errors to be ignored on a given var, maybe that'd be good enough.
14:49	rhickey	don't we just need a bound? fn ?
14:49	rhickey	then you could write -set-if-bound!
14:49	chouser	yeah, that's better
14:49	humphrej	chouser: thanks let me ponder that one
14:50	ska2342	would bound? return false if only the root-binding is established? or would it have to distinguish between no binding, root-binding and binding-form-dynamic-binding? No too easy I guess.
14:50	ska2342	/No/Not/
14:51	chouser	ska2342: right, there's .isBound already, but that's something else.
14:51	cemerick	ska2342: that's a thought -- perhaps I should set the api up so that callers bind an atom to a var, which is reset! if non-nil. That might be simpler all-around.
14:51	qbg	random question: Is it a known issue that the master branch of clojure-contrib will no longer compile with the master branch of clojure?
14:52	rhickey	cemerick: and then reimplement the stack-unwinding?
14:52	chouser	you'd want 'thread-bound?' or something?
14:52	rhickey	chouser: yes, two flavors
14:52	chouser	qbg: did you 'ant clean' your contrib before building?
14:53	rhickey	is there a reason that contrib doesn't auto-clean?
14:53	cemerick	rhickey: I sense sarcasm. Did I miss something?
14:53	qbg	chouser: Thanks, that fixed it
14:53	rhickey	cemerick: no sarcasm, but what happens with nested calls when you start using an atom?
14:54	cemerick	yeah, not a general solution -- works in this particular case, though, where I know there's no nested calls
14:55	rhickey	cemerick: would not thread-bound? solve your problem?
14:55	ska2342	I humbly repeat my question about a thread-local atom-like-type. Is that desirable, interesting or even doable?
14:56	chouser	ska2342: var is a thread-local atom-like
14:56	cemerick	rhickey: I believe so, and I'd use it. I'm just trying to finish this particular piece this afternoon. :-)
14:57	rhickey	cemerick: you could send me a patch with bound? and thread-bound? right now...
14:57	rhickey	:)
14:57	rhickey	all the support is in Var already
14:58	cemerick	rhickey: halfway there already :-)
14:58	arohner	I wrote thread-bound? a few days ago, and then threw it away because I went with another approach for the problem that needed it...
14:58	cemerick	still won't be in our actual build of clojure for a while tho
15:00	cemerick	rhickey: when would Var.count be > 0 but yet the bindings have no entry for the var?
15:01	trmsw	does anybody else get an error from (use 'clojure.contrib.http.agent): bytes already refers to: #'clojure.core/bytes in namespace: user?
15:02	rhickey	cemerick: you don't want count, that is an optimization. You want getThreadBinding(0 != null, but not public
15:02	trmsw	I'm using clojure-1.1.0 and clojure-contrib-1.1.0-RC1
15:03	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, that's what I've done already, I was just wondering re: count
15:03	rhickey	bound? == hasRoot(), thread-bound? == getThreadBinding() != null
15:03	rhickey	cemerick: count allows Var to check an Atom prior to incurring the overhead of getting the thread local
15:03	rhickey	if count is 0, no thread has a local binding
15:04	chouser	what is isBound()
15:04	rhickey	chouser: bound either way
15:04	chouser	bound only at the most recently level of 'binding'?
15:04	chouser	oh, \|\| hm..
15:05	rhickey	and maybe what bound? should map to
15:05	rhickey	bound? means deref will work, thread-bound? means set! will work
15:07	rhickey	stuartsierra: to your point before, breaking changes in timely releases will put more pressure for patches for prior releases. We didn't get any for 1.0
15:08	stuartsierra	yes
15:08	technomancy	what's the easiest way to pad a string with a character if it's less than a given length? is there a built-in or contrib function for that?
15:09	stuartsierra	,(format "%10s" :foo)
15:09	clojurebot	" :foo"
15:09	rhickey	poll, when fns get metadata - where do you want to put it?
15:10	hiredman	on mars
15:10	rhickey	hiredman: ?
15:10	technomancy	stuartsierra: any way to do it with a character other than space?
15:11	hiredman	rhickey: sorry
15:11	stuartsierra	rhickey: before argument list, (fn {metadata} [x] ...)
15:11	rhickey	stuartsierra: won't that be confusing with multiple arity?
15:11	rhickey	since won't be per-arity
15:11	chouser	after the 'fn'
15:12	stuartsierra	actually, I have no idea
15:12	rhickey	chouser: and if there's a name?
15:12	chouser	so, before the name if any
15:12	chouser	before the arg vector if only one, and before the list of arities
15:12	chouser	except
15:13	chouser	that's the same "place" as var metadata on defns. :-/
15:13	stuartsierra	The only time it matters is in defn, where there's confusion with Var metadata. Anywhere else we have #^
15:13	rhickey	so, this is still code as data
15:13	hiredman	stuartsierra: #^ has to expand into something
15:14	stuartsierra	hiredman: yes, but #^{...} (fn ...) could set metadata on the fn
15:14	stuartsierra	(def #^{...var metadata...} symbol #^{...fn metadata...} (fn ...))
15:15	hiredman	stuartsierra: but #^ is a reader macro
15:15	hiredman	ahem
15:15	hiredman	right
15:16	stuartsierra	hiredman: oh, right. (with-meta {...} (fn ...)) then
15:16	stuartsierra	But (fn...) is a special form, so I suppose it could accept read-time metadata too.
15:17	rhickey	fn is a macro
15:17	rhickey	fn* is special
15:17	stuartsierra	oh
15:18	rhickey	but the fn form can certainly take metadata on the form, once macros can get their forms
15:18	chouser	we're not talking about fns support with-meta, are we?
15:18	rhickey	chouser: possiblty
15:19	rhickey	which argues for simple #^{:a 1} (fn []...)
15:20	stuartsierra	I actually prefer #^ to having metadata in a different place for different macros (defn, fn, def, ...)
15:20	stuartsierra	But people will complain that it's ugly.
15:20	chouser	^{:a 1} (fn [] ...) :-)
15:21	stuartsierra	chouser: yes, I like that
15:21	arohner	why do does the "defn metadata" need to go on the var once fns have metadata?
15:22	rhickey	arohner: backwards compatibility?
15:22	stuartsierra	arohner: {:private true} for one, and people may still have use for Var metadata
15:22	stuartsierra	Would fn metdata include :pre/:post conditions?
15:23	arohner	ah right, thanks
15:23	chouser	some var metadata is used for non-fn values that don't themselves support metadata. docstring on print-length
15:23	technomancy	if IMeta is implemented in terms of protocols, does that mean we'll be able to add metadata to instances of final classes?
15:23	chouser	technomancy: where would the metadata be stored?
15:24	rhickey	stuartsierra: yes
15:24	rhickey	technomancy: no
15:24	technomancy	chouser: in... a metadata store? I hadn't really thought it through. =)
15:25	stuartsierra	technomancy: it might be possible, but still inadvisable
15:25	technomancy	stuartsierra: how so?
15:26	hiredman	:D
15:26	stuartsierra	Well, if IMeta is a protocol, there's nothing stopping you from extending it for any class, stashing the metadata in a weak hash map or something.
15:26	rhickey	the contract of with-meta is: the same value, with metadata. You can't superimpose that on a final class
15:27	rhickey	if you pretend (via an external map), you will have a performance, GC, and concurrency nightmare
15:27	stuartsierra	rhickey: Yes, that's why I said inadvisable. ;)
15:27	technomancy	gotcha
15:27	rhickey	nevermind a problem with identity
15:28	rhickey	stuartsierra: you mean insoluble?
15:28	technomancy	how about IFn on java.util.regex.Patterns then?
15:29	stuartsierra	rhickey: Insoluble to do it correctly. Hence, inadvisable to try it.
15:29	rhickey	technomancy: needs a wrapper
15:29	rhickey	stuartsierra: ok than :)
15:29	rhickey	then
15:29	stuartsierra	Comp. Sci. needs a word for that: "you can't do this correctly, so don't do it at all."
15:30	technomancy	well shucks, I'm going to have to find another 1.2-specific to get excited about then.
15:30	stuartsierra	technomancy: deftype! locals-clearing!
15:31	technomancy	oh yeah, locals-clearing is awesome. it's just easy to forget about. =)
15:31	rhickey	defprotocol, improved agent erros, direct binding
15:31	stuartsierra	direct binding!!!
15:31	rhickey	metadata on fns, form and locals in macros
15:31	technomancy	I just don't have any use in mind for protocols off the top of my head anymore
15:32	rhickey	direct binding is on right now in master, for clojure.*
15:32	technomancy	I'm sure I'll be able to think of something. =)
15:32	hiredman	cinc!
15:32	rhickey	hiredman: not 1.2
15:32	stuartsierra	While we're on the subject, what do you say to publicly giving a target date and feature set for 1.2?
15:33	technomancy	isn't the feature set already fairly clear?
15:34	stuartsierra	I mean make it public, put a roadmap on the web.
15:34	hiredman	rhickey: sure
15:34	stuartsierra	With a due date.
15:34	rhickey	stuartsierra: most of the heavy lifting is already done. A bunch of things need some experience-based feedback. I'm not 100% in love with how map support works in deftype, we need to decide what the knobs are for direct binding, people need to try the new aagent error system...
15:34	hiredman	but that is a use for protocols
15:34	stuartsierra	I was thinking, if people could see what new features are coming out, and when, they would be more motivated to test.
15:35	stuartsierra	Not a due date per se, but a planned date. Like Ubuntu releases.
15:35	rhickey	stuartsierra: I think the current system is working ok, I just got too far ahead of the releases. But that means 1.2 will come much sooner than 1.1 did
15:36	rhickey	stuartsierra: rather than a date, I'd prefer to scope it by features. When all the features are in, then it's a matter of testing and ship
15:37	stuartsierra	rhickey: ok, it's your show, after all.
15:37	rhickey	plus any bug fixes that make it in the meantime
15:37	rhickey	all programmers do with dates is miss them
15:38	rhickey	stuartsierra: but I agree, fewer features per release, more frequent releases
15:38	stuartsierra	rhickey: that's good, that's the important part
15:39	rhickey	one problem with that is insufficient feedback time, so more things might be labeled alpha
15:40	technomancy	protocols aren't magic fairy dust that suddenly give me all the features I want. =)
15:40	stuartsierra	A description of which milestone to assign tickets to would help.
15:44	rhickey	stuartsierra: everything should go into backlog - I'll move them
15:44	hiredman	technomancy: http://clojure.org/rationale is still good, a functional lisp, nice datastructures, jvm libraries, the rest is just details, nothing to get too excited about
15:44	stuartsierra	rhickey: might be worth mentioning on http://clojure.org/patches
15:45	rhickey	so, when can we move to ^{:lean :metadata} foo
15:45	rhickey	stuartsierra: backlog is the default
15:46	stuartsierra	rhickey: ok, I was just moving some old tickets from "no milestone" to backlog
15:46	hiredman	is ^ still going to be pre form? just #^ without the #
15:48	rhickey	stuartsierra: I need to check, but I think they might have preceded setting up the default. I added a note to http://clojure.org/patches
15:48	stuartsierra	cool, sounds good
15:49	rhickey	hiredman: yes, just #^ without the #
15:52	ecyrb	Could someone point me to an example of using "{#^:static true}" to declare a static method in gen-class?
15:53	hiredman	ecyrb: completely wrong
15:53	hiredman	#^ is a reader macro for attaching metadata to the following form
15:54	hiredman	so {#^:static true} tries to attach :static as metadata on true
15:54	hiredman	which is nonsense
15:54	rhickey	ecyrb: looks like you've got a typo there
15:54	rhickey	should be #^{:static true}
15:54	hiredman	#^{:static true} goes before the vector specifing the method
15:54	ecyrb	Ah. #^{:static true}
15:55	cemerick	rhickey: I got a little fancy with bound? and thread-bound? Figured they'd be used more commonly in literal form than in conjunction with map, etc. http://github.com/cemerick/clojure/commit/d270aae483c804c219b30cc2e5a93a764f739215 I'll put a patch on a ticket if that's what you had in mind.
15:56	ecyrb	Thanks guys.
15:56	rhickey	cemerick: I think they should be ordinary functions
15:57	rhickey	?
15:58	cemerick	rhickey: I wouldn't have expected that, but OK. Trying to be explicit about vars?
15:59	rhickey	cemerick: well, there's the don't make macros that don't need to be macros...
16:01	rhickey	heritage is: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm
16:07	cemerick	rhickey: ok, done. I left them with rest args, though -- it's too easy to do (thread-bound? #'a #'b #'c) rather than (every? thread-bound? ...)
16:09	rhickey	cemerick: cool, thanks!
16:10	LauJensen	Anybody have some hints as to which Java classes would be appropriate for writing a proxy ?
16:13	chouser	my favorite is clojure.lang.IDeref :-)
16:14	hiredman	I think he must have meant an http proxy
16:14	chouser	oh
16:14	chouser	heh
16:14	LauJensen	Thats right :)
16:18	chouser	it doesn't seem quite right that queues print looking like lists
16:19	rhickey	chouser: what queues?
16:19	chouser	PersistentQueues
16:19	rhickey	oh, those
16:19	chouser	we're documenting them
16:19	chouser	:-)
16:20	rhickey	are people using them?
16:20	chouser	sure we are
16:21	_fogus_	They will once they read our great section. :-p
16:21	chouser	not a lot, but when you need a queue, that's what you need.
16:21	chouser	when people don't use a queue the do horrible things to vectors instead.
16:22	chouser	I saw that in the wild -- shoot, where's that link...
16:22	LauJensen	bestinclass.dk ? :)
16:23	_fogus_	I propose printing them as <(1 2 3)<
16:23	rhickey	any proposals for an api, printed representation, tests etc?
16:23	hiredman	_fogus_: :\|
16:23	hiredman	dancing queues
16:23	_fogus_	fish queues
16:23	hiredman	<()< >()>
16:23	rhickey	I've always been concerned about people not understanding how to use them and getting confused vs. imperative queues, which we still need to support
16:24	chouser	the api is fine as-is, maybe add a 'queue' factory fn. printed is rarish, I would be ok with #=(queue a b c)
16:24	rhickey	and when we have an api for I/O queues?
16:25	chouser	LauJensen: nah, I think it was rosetta stone something, though I can't find it now.
16:26	chouser	wow there's a lot there: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Clojure
16:27	cemerick	rhickey: this your cue for a generalized queue interface ;-)
16:27	rhickey	cemerick: but it won't unify persistent and I/O queues
16:27	chouser	call it persistent-queue for now. shrug
16:28	cemerick	rhickey: I'm all about the tangents today.
16:28	chouser	ah, there it is: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/FIFO#Clojure
16:29	LauJensen	hehe
16:29	_fogus_	chouser: Sounds like you just volunteered to fix that. ;)
16:29	chouser	someone didn't know about PersistentQueue and wrote one on vectors that leaks every item inserted.
16:29	chouser	_fogus_: I was going to educate the world about not doing that instead, but then you went and did it.
16:39	stuartsierra	rhickey: want to celebrate 1.1 at LispNYC tonight?
16:40	stuartsierra	(and anyone else, come on down)
16:40	stuartsierra	Tonight at 7, P&G's, 380 Columbus Ave.
16:42	stuartsierra	Be there, or be parenthetical.
16:43	duncanm	is deftype not in clojure 1.1?
16:44	chouser	duncanm: nope, in "master", slated for 1.2
16:53	LauJensen	(apply str (mapcat #(map char %) (concat [(map inc [70 110 110 99 109 104]) (reverse '(33 116 104 103))])))
17:02	ninjudd	is there any way to tell what type a struct object is?
17:02	hiredman	type?
17:02	kotarak	ninjudd: IPersistentMap
17:02	ninjudd	what type of struct
17:03	chouser	that's not really a type, it's more like which constructor you used.
17:03	chouser	or in other words, no you can't.
17:03	kotarak	ninjudd: you have to attach such information in the metadata
17:04	kotarak	,(let [s (create-struct :a :b)] (type (with-meta (struct s 1 2) {:type ::MyType})))
17:04	clojurebot	:sandbox/MyType
17:04	kotarak	ninjudd: structs don't have necessarily a name.
17:04	kotarak	ninjudd: what you probably want is defstruct from master
17:04	ninjudd	kotarak: i see, that makes sense
17:05	ninjudd	kotarak: does that add the metadata automatically?
17:05	kotarak	ninjudd: no. you have to do it manually with with-meta
17:05	ninjudd	ok
17:06	kotarak	(defn my-type [x y] (with-meta (struct my-type-struct x y) {:type ::MyType}))
17:06	kotarak	something like that
17:06	ninjudd	there isn't a struct? method either...
17:07	ninjudd	really, in this case, i just need to know if the type is PersistentStructMap
17:07	kotarak	ninjudd: let's try it the other way around: what are you trying to do?
17:08	kotarak	Maybe there is a different solution?
17:09	ninjudd	kotarak: i'm writing a method that i want to vary its behavior depending on whether a struct is passed in
17:09	chouser	(instance? clojure.lang.PersistentStructMap x)
17:10	ninjudd	kotarak: more specifically, i want to override the behavior of print for a specific struct type
17:10	kotarak	ninjudd: (defmethod print-method ::MyType ...)
17:11	ninjudd	kotarak: so i really need to make a new class in Java then?
17:11	kotarak	ninjudd: no. you have to attach metadata with type info
17:11	kotarak	ninjudd: print-method dispatches on type which checks for :type in the metadata
17:11	ninjudd	kotarak: oh, right
17:12	ninjudd	kotarak: ok, thanks
17:12	kotarak	ninjudd: checking on PersistentStructMap would change the behaviour for all struct maps, not just your type.
17:12	kotarak	ninjudd: np
17:13	ninjudd	chouser: thanks, i knew there must be some way to check the type. i'm coming from ruby, so i was looking for something like is_a? or kind_of?
17:14	ninjudd	class rather
17:14	kotarak	ninjudd: you'll find types pretty much uninteresting in Clojure, in general.
17:14	kotarak	A lot works by abstractions
17:18	technomancy	same as in Ruby actually, if you're using is_a? much something is probably wrong
17:19	ninjudd	technomancy: i'm not, i just didn't know how to do it
17:20	technomancy	speaking of which, I can't be the only person who gets confused about the fact that isa? and instance? have their arguments in opposite order, can I?
17:20	technomancy	not to mention trying to use isa? to check if an object is an instance of a class?
17:22	wilig	Getting very strange error from slime when trying to use clojure.contrib.sql. I get "No matching method found: println for class swank.util.io.proxy$java.io.StringWriter$0" Any pointers?
18:08	arohner	technomancy: IIRC, you can blow your permgen in some cases just by creating too many anonymous functions
18:08	arohner	it has to do with the JVM GC'ing classes
18:08	arohner	the JVM doesn't GC classes unless their owning classloader is GC'd (I think)
18:09	technomancy	from what I understand closures are generated with their own classloader for precisely this reason
18:09	arohner	yes. A lot of clojure creates new classloaders and lets them be GC'd for exactly this
18:10	arohner	but it wouldn't surprise me if it were possible to create a situation where your fn isn't GC'd
18:11	technomancy	it's odd that it would happen without being accompanied by a regular memory leak though
18:11	technomancy	so it's mostly just use of eval and anonymous fns that cause runtime class generation, right?
18:14	arohner	I can't think of any others off the top of my head
18:14	arohner	aside from silly stuff like deftype in a loop
18:15	arohner	proxy and friends create classes
18:18	technomancy	oh, good point. I'll have to check that too
18:26	the-kenny	Anyone who can recommend me a good elisp tutorial?
18:27	trmsw	you're familiar with lisp?
18:27	the-kenny	trmsw: Of course
18:28	the-kenny	trmsw: Common Lisp and Clojure, to be precise
18:28	technomancy	the-kenny: just forget everything you've learned in Clojure about FP and data structures that are convenient to use and you should be in good shape. =\
18:28	the-kenny	Maybe "Tutorial" isn't the right word. I'm searching for something like an introduction to programming Emacs
18:28	technomancy	in other words, Common Lisp should be a great introduction. =)
18:29	the-kenny	technomancy: Sounds like.. Common Lisp
18:29	the-kenny	:D
18:29	technomancy	the-kenny: have you checked the one in M-x info? it's not bad.
18:30	trmsw	it's probably better than any tutorial that tries to teach you lisp into the bargain
18:30	technomancy	generally M-x apropos and the describe-* commands are your friends when exploring the actual APIs
18:30	the-kenny	technomancy: I always forget the built-in stuff in Emacs.. I'll look at it
18:33	trmsw	the-kenny: somewhere there is a book on how to write Emacs modes, can't find it but I remember reading it...
18:41	mtm	you're probably thinking of "Writing GNU Emacs Extensions" http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781565922617/
19:22	mebaran151	how do you print out slime's classpath?
19:23	seths	mebaran151: not sure, but it might be using the contents of $HOME/.clojure
19:23	seths	probably more swank than slime, swank is the server side of slime
19:24	mebaran151	no I'm pretty sure it's getting my classpath
19:24	mebaran151	I just want to print it out to see what jars it's getting
19:24	seths	wait there was a post on the Clojure Google group recently
19:24	seths	checking...
19:24	mebaran151	I launched it with swank-clojure-project
19:24	seths	oh
19:25	seths	that method asks for a base dir, and I think includes the contents of the lib directory
19:26	seths	that's how I run a repl from the new branch, since lein repl uses its internal version of clojure
19:28	technomancy	,(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
19:28	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission java.class.path read)
19:28	technomancy	should work outside the sandbox
19:28	technomancy	won't work with lein swank though
19:29	mebaran151	no magic swank vars
19:38	mebaran151	cool that worked, thanks technomancy
19:38	mebaran151	if I had a running project, say a server, I wanted to be able to patch on the fly, could I use swank to remote connect to it?
19:38	crazzyford	techno I worked up an elisp function that works with my project layout to run tests from implimentation files
19:41	lisppaste8	crazzyford pasted "test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93316
19:41	crazzyford	something like that
19:42	seths	technomancy: the .gitignore from lein new FOO could use a "FOO-standalone.jar" line
19:49	technomancy	crazzyford: what about a command instead that just toggles between implementation and test?
19:49	technomancy	then you could build a "run tests for this ns" command in terms of that?
19:49	technomancy	seths: great idea, let's see a patch. =)
19:49	crazzyford	this seemed faster
19:49	crazzyford	for refactoring stuff at least
19:50	crazzyford	move stuff around, run some tests, move more stuff around, run some tests
19:50	technomancy	sure; I'm just saying they're both useful
19:50	crazzyford	aye aye capn
19:50	technomancy	and one could be implemented using the other
19:51	crazzyford	eventually will have a "get buffer for this implementation file"
19:51	crazzyford	and then can easily switch/run tests on said buffer
19:51	crazzyford	the only thing that bothers me about clojure-test-mode atm is changing the color of output based on tests passing/failing
19:53	crazzyford	I looked into it some, but it looks like the way to change face of the minibuffer is using a minibuffer hook
19:55	technomancy	changing the color of the message in the minibuffer? hrm. don't know if you can do that, but it'd be great if you could.
19:56	crazzyford	if not might be able to flash the modeline green/red
19:56	crazzyford	maybe
19:56	crazzyford	minibuffer stuff looks difficult
20:01	crazzyford	ido does it, so must be possible in some way
20:03	crazzyford	aha (I think)
20:04	crazzyford	looks like you can use put-text-property inside the minibuffer
20:05	dnolen	technomancy: how can I get lein swank to use clojure new? does it just use the clojure inside leiningen/lib by default?
20:05	hiredman	new was merged into master
20:06	dnolen	hiredman: yes I saw that, but even so that's not the one that lein pulls down, so question is still the same :)
20:07	hiredman	I imagine if you change the version in your project.clj it will pull down what you ask for
20:07	qbg	If I have a symbol, how do I find the metadata that was associated with it when it was def'ed?
20:08	hiredman	def attaches metadata to the var, not the symbol
20:08	seths	dnolen: swank looks inside $HOME/.clojure which leiningen does not use
20:09	seths	I wrote a tool to update ~/.m2 and ~/.clojure with different versions of Clojure/Contrib
20:09	seths	http://bitbucket.org/seths/clojuggle/src/
20:09	technomancy	dnolen: it should use the version of clojure inside your project's lib/ directory
20:09	seths	may or may not solve the problem tho
20:10	dnolen	technomancy: hmm doesn't seem to be doing that, i have clojure-new there.
20:10	seths	to clarify: when using M-x slime
20:10	technomancy	leiningen will run in leiningen's version of clojure, and your project will run in its own
20:10	dnolen	technomancy: do I need to build the lein-swank jar with clojure-new
20:10	dnolen	?
20:10	technomancy	dnolen: the one place that doesn't apply yet is lein repl
20:11	technomancy	dnolen: if you build lein-swank with the latest leiningen it doesn't matter since no AOT is done
20:11	dnolen	technomancy: I am using lein from source
20:12	technomancy	dnolen: how are you checking the clojure version
20:12	technomancy	?
20:12	dnolen	er, not scientifically that for sure. deftype isn't available :)
20:13	technomancy	I mean, lein swank + M-x slime connect, running the test suite, lein repl, etc.
20:13	dnolen	technomancy: I switch to the project dir, lein swank, connect from Emacs
20:13	hiredman	,clojure-version
20:13	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "alpha"}
20:13	technomancy	dnolen: sounds like a bug; could you post to the lein mailing list?
20:14	dnolen	technomancy: sure
21:07	I314159	is there a mod operator in clojure?
21:07	mitchellh	I314159: rem
21:07	mitchellh	,(doc rem)
21:07	clojurebot	"([num div]); remainder of dividing numerator by denominator."
21:08	markgunnels	If I wanted to use deftype and defprotocol, what should I point my leiningen dependencies to?
21:09	dnolen	markgunnels: something like, :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0-new-SNAPSHOT"]]
21:09	markgunnels	dnolen: thanks.
21:09	I314159	ahh - thx
21:10	dnolen	np
21:10	markgunnels	dnolen: tried that and then ran lein repl and it greets me with:
21:11	markgunnels	Clojure 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT
21:11	markgunnels	user=> (doc deftype)
21:11	markgunnels	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: deftype in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
21:11	dnolen	markgunnels: that might be related to an bug that I've just posted on the list
21:11	dnolen	do you see clojure new in your project lib folder?
21:11	markgunnels	dnolen: Yes.
21:11	dnolen	markgunnels: yes probably a bug.
21:12	markgunnels	dnolen: K. Suspected I was just being dense with this. Statistically more likely. :-)
21:12	seths	dnolen: not a bug
21:12	seths	lein repl uses the built in version clojure, not what's in lib
21:12	seths	it's a known issue
21:13	seths	your code in the src folder can still use deftype and defprotocol
21:13	dnolen	ah so well missing feature than that people seem to expect :)
21:13	markgunnels	seths: Ok. Thanks.
21:13	seths	agreed!
21:14	seths	markgunnels: if you are using emacs, try swank-clojure-project to get a repl with the contents of the lib/ directory
21:14	markgunnels	seths: I am. That was actually what I was just trying...:-)
21:17	markgunnels	seths: is there a special swank dev-dependency I need with the new branch?
21:18	markgunnels	#<CompilerException java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V (pprint.clj:1)>
21:18	markgunnels	Make sure swank-clojure is added as a dev-dependency in your project.clj.
21:19	markgunnels	seths: I may have misunderstood your earlier statement.
21:20	seths	markgunnels: not sure, let me check
21:20	seths	btw I am just a happy user of lein, not part of the project
21:21	markgunnels	seths: I am a VERY happy user of lein.
21:21	markgunnels	seths: It's very nice. Thanks for your help.
21:24	timothypratley	,(doc mod)
21:24	clojurebot	"([num div]); Modulus of num and div. Truncates toward negative infinity."
21:24	markgunnels	seths: Don't spend too much time on it. I'll just write a little script to launch it outside of leiningen.
21:25	markgunnels	seths: Thanks again for your help.
21:28	seths	markgunnels: happy to help!
21:29	seths	markgunnels: I am able to use defprotocol from swank-clojure-project
21:29	seths	with this in my project.clj
21:30	seths	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0-new-SNAPSHOT"]
21:30	seths	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.1.0-new-SNAPSHOT"]]
21:30	seths
21:30	seths	:dev-dependencies [[lein-clojars "0.5.0-SNAPSHOT"]
21:30	seths	[leiningen/lein-swank "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"]]
21:44	gstamp	curses. monad tutorial part 2 is down. http://onclojure.com/2009/03/06/a-monad-tutorial-for-clojure-programmers-part-2/
21:44	gstamp	google cache to the rescue
23:36	defn`	in the ns macro is it correct to do [:use (foo bar baz)] where bar and baz are foo.bar and foo.baz?
23:39	ts00000	is there a reason why (re-find #"(.*\b(\r))+") wouldn't work?
23:40	ts00000	sorry, (re-find #"(.*\b(\r))+" x)
23:40	defn`	you have a " in the wrong spot?
23:40	defn`	oops nvm
23:40	ts00000	my bad :)
23:40	chouser	defn`: you need round-parens around :use, not brackets
23:40	ts00000	is there something awkward with the backref syntax or something
23:40	defn`	chouser: do i then need to quote my namespaces below it
23:41	defn`	[:use clojure.set (base ext1 ext2)]
23:41	chouser	defn`: I don't understand. But something like (ns foo (:use (clojure.contrib repl-utils seq-utils))) works
23:41	defn`	chouser: right but what about (:use (clojure core contrib set))
23:42	defn`	oh nvm didnt read all of it
23:42	defn`	thank you
23:42	chouser	,(re-find #"(.*\b(\r))+" "hi\r")
23:42	clojurebot	["hi\r" "hi\r" "\r"]
23:43	chouser	ts00000: what's the problem?
23:43	chouser	defn`: but not core or contrib. core comes in automatically with 'ns', and contrib is not itself a namespace.
23:44	defn`	sure just an example
23:44	chouser	ok
23:44	ts00000	chouser: what I want is a block to be used in a second regex. see http://pastie.org/776064
23:44	defn`	chouser, i take it the same thing is true for :require and :import
23:44	ts00000	I want one match to contain the first block before the newline, and the second to contain the second block
23:45	chouser	defn`: :require is almost identical to :use. :import is something else, though it does allow similar lists for class packages/names
23:45	defn`	but as far as syntax, i should be doing (:import (com.petebevin.markdown MarkdownProcessor))
23:45	defn`	and not [:import...]
23:45	chouser	defn`: yes
23:45	defn`	cool, thank you
23:47	chouser	ts00000: you're trying to break that input at the blank line?
23:47	ts00000	chouser: yeah, ostensibly I have a long "data packet" that consists of a lot of these sections, not all of them evenly formatted, but i'm trying to iterate closer and closer to my ideal solution; problem is clojure doesn't seem to want to provide me a match for the expression I described
23:48	ts00000	when I run my function designed to give me this, it just returns nil
23:48	ts00000	but things like (.*) do what I expect
23:48	chouser	that regex appears to just be searching for a <CR> in the input
23:49	ts00000	http://pastie.org/776071 is a "real" example of what I want
23:49	ts00000	where x is the true input
23:50	ts00000	and yes, what I want is to search for a <CR>, and give me the match up to the <CR>
23:50	chouser	a single regex will return a fixed number of matches. You may want something like re-seq instead of re-find, so that you can get multiple results
23:50	ts00000	even with re-seq, I get no matches
23:50	chouser	ts00000: are you on a platform that uses \r for line endings rather than \n
23:52	ts00000	chouser: moving to \n does some things right, but not exactly what I expect; why do I get three elements in the sequence rather than two
23:52	ts00000	I would think that the first element is the real text, and the second element is the parsed text; is the third element the backref?
23:52	chouser	what do you mean by "backref"?
23:53	ts00000	backreference
23:53	ts00000	in the regular expression
23:53	ts00000	to be used during the match
23:53	chouser	re-find returns a vector of n things where n is the number of groups in the regex plus one
23:53	chouser	the first is the whole match, the second your (.* ...)+ group, and the third your (\r) group
23:54	chouser	I think you might want something more like: (re-seq #"(?s).+?(?:\n\n\|$)" x)
23:55	ts00000	yup cho, you got it. thank you
23:55	ts00000	working through regular expressions for the first time
23:55	ts00000	is the oreilly book best for gaining clue rapidly?
23:55	chouser	ah! well, good luck to you. It's a challenging and rewarding subject. :-)
23:56	chouser	couldn't say, sorry.
23:56	chouser	I don't think your regex had any backrefs in it. were you thinking of the \b part or something else?
23:58	ts00000	the \b part
23:59	chouser	in a java regex, anyway, that matches a word boundary.
23:59	chouser	so, not a backreference