#clojure – 2010-01-10

2010-01-10

00:10	optimizer	does anyone know of an implementation of stackoverflow in clojure?
00:10	optimizer	that'd be so cool
00:11	gregh	stackoverflow the web site?
00:13	optimizer	yeah,
00:13	optimizer	like i wnat to run a private stackoverflow
00:13	optimizer	and perferably it'd be in clojure
00:13	gregh	afaik there isn't any other implementation of stackoverflow, so it's unlikely that any of those implementations would be in clojure. :)
00:14	optimizer	i wonder what people in caompanies use
00:14	mitchellh1	Typically "clones" of stackoverflow lack on a lot of features. The basic question/answer/upvoting is easy to do, but stackoverflow is comprised of a lot of really neat features.
00:14	mitchellh1	optimizer: Stack overflow licenses out its software to 3rd parties
00:14	optimizer	enlighten me please
00:14	optimizer	what neat features?
00:15	mitchellh1	optimizer: Let me find something, one sec
00:16	mitchellh1	optimizer: http://stackexchange.com/
00:16	mitchellh1	There is the actually software which runs stack overflow
00:17	mitchellh1	And the features I'm talking about are searching, badges, wiki functionality, spam filters, statistics, etc. which are all not totally trivial to implement QUICKLY (though trivial to implement, sans spam filters)
00:20	optimizer	alot of these features, badges, spam, etc ...
00:20	optimizer	seems useful when you have to motivate a bunch of people you're not paying
00:20	optimizer	but within a company,where you can hire/fire people at will, spam does not seem like a problem
00:55	technomancy	anyone with edit permissions on clojure.org around?
00:56	technomancy	the "getting started" page links to a really old version of clojure-mode
00:56	tolstoy	And the contrib.sql links to SVN for examples.
01:21	Licenser	hmm, when I do have a map and change something via assoc the GC will clean up the unused copies right?
01:21	Licenser	´
01:23	tolstoy	Licenser: I'd assume so.
01:23	Licenser	okay, I'd hope so
03:56	Licenser	hmm I'm confused why is this: (defn a [] 1) (defn a [] (+ (a) 1)) (a) I'd kind of expect 2
03:59	Licenser	okay I'm wrong and a tad confused
04:04	Licenser	(let [a a] (def a (fn [] (+ (a) 1)))) works as I epxect thank you :D
04:18	LauJensen	Hehe - Fun last night when I logged off defn was having a discussion with himself as well :)
04:48	Licenser	LauJensen: sometimes it helps just to phrase your thoughts to find the solution ;) als I don't contradict myself as often as others do so I'm a good person to talk to for me :P
04:49	LauJensen	Yea that sounds like a plan :)
04:49	Licenser	^^
04:52	Licenser	(= LauJensen "The lau with the webcasts about cloujure web development") ?
04:52	LauJensen	true
04:53	Licenser	ah cool then good work with them! I liked them
04:55	LauJensen	Great, glad to hear it
05:00	Licenser	helped me getting started with emacs ^^
05:04	LauJensen	Yea you can't dig into that too soon
05:05	Licenser	Heh
05:07	Licenser	I don't like it too much, but it slowly gets better - seem so that my incompetence is part of the problem :P
05:28	LauJensen	You read the Tolstoy quote right? :)
07:48	LauJensen	Is there a spit variant which appends if the file exists+
07:50	LauJensen	oh.. seems append-spit might do just that :)
08:33	somnium	~def get
09:07	BrianB04	Morning all.
10:08	bagucode	Is there a way to programmatically check how many arguments a function takes
10:08	bagucode	?
10:08	bagucode	Given the function object
10:08	Chousuke	bagucode: yes, but it's not trivial and relies on implementation details and reflection
10:08	bagucode	:(
10:12	bagucode	Chousuke: I'm implementing callbacks in my C interop lib and I'm suspecting very bad things (like a jvm crash) will happen if the jvm throws an exception instead of returning normally to a native function. So I wanted to check that the number of arguments match for the callback specification when registering a clojure function for callbacks.
10:13	Chousuke	bagucode: you can always wrap the function in something that does the checking for you and returns a sane failure value if there is an argument mismatch.
10:15	bagucode	Chousuke: you mean catch the exception on the jvm side and return a sane value to the native function? Yeah that would be a good plan if I knew the details of the native function. But this is not for a particular library, I'm writing a clojure library for interfacing with C in general.
10:16	bagucode	So for that to work, the user would have to input valid error codes to use in case of an exception when she specifies the callback interface :/ I don't like that
10:18	bagucode	I guess I will just see what happens and if it's a disaster when an exception happens then I don't mind relying on implementation details.
10:20	bagucode	Actually, never mind. I would have to check the return type as well, which is impossible since it's always Object so I have to trust the users to get it right :)
11:14	edbond	how to convert lazyseq to string?
11:16	the-kenny	(apple str seq)
11:16	arohner	(apply str lazyseq)
11:16	the-kenny	s/apple/apply/
11:17	the-kenny	,(apply str (take 10 (iterate inc 0)))
11:17	clojurebot	"0123456789"
11:18	edbond	thanks
11:53	LauJensen	I'm taking lein out for a spin and lein compile runs fine, but lein jar fails with .../haddit/src/.#haddit.clj File Not Found - What does it get the notion that src should contain a .#haddit.clj file?
11:58	somnium	LauJensen: .# is an emacs file lock
11:59	somnium	LauJensen: save/close all the buffers in your project and theyll likely go away
12:01	LauJensen	1) the file doesn't exist (which is the problem according to lein), 2) Why would lein care?
12:03	LauJensen	hmmm, correction, there was a broken symlink in there - wonder who made it
12:04	somnium	LauJensen: emacs puts hidden .#foo files in the dir where the original file exists, and lein stumbles on them when it traverses ./src I guess
12:05	somnium	in my experience at least this has been the case
12:05	LauJensen	Ok - First time I've seen that. Emacs knows that all tmp files go in a certain directory
12:45	durka42	this seems weird to me
12:45	durka42	but my program seems to have a bottleneck in java.lang.Integer.intValue
12:55	crazzyford	Is there an easy way to convert a seq into a set?
12:59	schlammpudding	(into #{} <your seq here>)
13:15	defn	durka42: could you explain more
13:16	durka42	defn: i profiled my program with YourKit, and it's spending a lot of time in clojure's Divide, specifically isZero, which calls intValue because it needs a primitive
13:17	defn	did you try saying (int blah)
13:18	defn	or type hinting?
13:24	the-kenny	durka42: There's uncheckedDivide, which doesn't check for division-through-zero.. you have to be careful, that's clear
13:25	durka42	hmm, i will look at that
13:27	durka42	no unchecked-divide for floats?
13:34	chouser	durka42: you shouldn't need unchecked. just using '/' on primitives instead of moxed number should give you a good boost.
13:34	chouser	boxed
13:36	durka42	chouser: fair enough
13:37	edbond	how to convert string from one encoding to other?
13:40	Kjellski	Hi there =)
13:41	chouser	edbond: strings are already "decoded", so you may be wanting a way to convert from bytes (array? on disk?) to strings, or from strings to bytes.
13:41	chouser	or both.
13:44	Kjellski	Anyone with a better solution than this to do a "curl" - http://paste.lisp.org/+1ZX7 ?
13:45	LauJensen	I've added a dependency in defproject both as a regular dep and a dev-dep, but when compiling it says that its not on the classpath - why? Its downloaded correctly to lib/
13:46	Kjellski	omfg... forget it... just did the read-lines solo and said something homer like...
13:47	chouser	Kjellski: I think you can just (slurp* "http://whatever/")
13:49	robwolfe	LauJensen: "export DEBUG=1", try compile again and see what is on your classpath
13:50	LauJensen	robwolfe: thanks
13:50	Kjellski	chouser : yes, that works too, thanks... but is there a better way to handle html than just parse that output?
13:51	chouser	Kjellski: I'm not sure what you mean.
13:51	Kjellski	chouser : like find input fields and links ....
13:51	chouser	Are you asking, when your goal is parsed HTML, if there's a better way to fetch it than to slurp into a string?
13:51	chouser	or something else?
13:54	edbond	chouser: I get html page in wrong encoding, want to convert it to utf8
13:55	chouser	edbond: might be best to try to set the encoding when you read the bytes
14:09	Kjellski	chouser: that´s exacptly what would be nice...
14:25	chouser	Kjellski: clojure.xml/parse can take a url string
14:25	chouser	and then you could use clojure.contrib.zip-filter to certain tags.
14:25	chouser	or you could use enlive which has similar features.
14:26	LauJensen	Who is in charge of Clojars? And who do I get in touch with that person, the contact email on the site bounces
14:27	the-kenny	LauJensen: _ato. The source is on Github
14:27	LauJensen	the-kenny: Ok, what do I need the source for?
14:27	the-kenny	LauJensen: Don't know :) Maybe you're interested in it
14:28	LauJensen	I'm often tripping over broken jars from that site, thats my interest
14:29	the-kenny	ah ok
14:29	Kjellski	chouser thanks!
14:31	Kjellski	chouser : the problem is, nearly no page is really well formatted, so I´m getting only errors... =(
14:32	chouser	Kjellski: right, you want tagsoup
14:32	chouser	Kjellski: enlive uses that by default I think, but clojure.xml can be made to use it as well.
14:33	chouser	Kjellski: see zip-soup here: http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/master/newegg.clj
14:35	Kjellski	Thanks a lot... I´ll try to install that!
14:59	Kjellski	chouser: could you give me a hint on what I´m missing? http://paste.lisp.org/display/93215 thought there should be something in there, no?
15:00	chouser	Kjellski: do you have your print-level set low, to something like 4 or 5?
15:01	Kjellski	chouser: that´s it... how can I inc that?
15:01	chouser	I use (set! print-level 15)
15:02	Kjellski	chouser : thanks again...
15:05	chouser	np
15:08	mebaran151	LauJensen, is there anyway to use clojureql to insert a blog (like an x.509 cert)
15:08	mebaran151	*blob
15:08	mebaran151	in clojureQL that is
15:09	LauJensen	mebaran151: Not now, but look in the backend at set-env and extend it to Blob - Should take about 5 minz if all goes well
15:10	mebaran151	I think it requires some custom jdbc calls
15:15	LauJensen	I wouldn't think so, but I encourage you to find out :)
15:19	mebaran151	yeah, we're internally using a patched ClojureQL that has support for returning auto-genned keys and now we'll add blobs
15:21	mebaran151	I think one of my team sent some patches to you a week ago actually
15:48	arohner	grr. Google, when I search for "ref?" I mean "ref?" not "ref"
15:48	arohner	similarly with ref\?
15:51	crazzyford	is there a good guide to when you should be testing in clojure? I've been struggling with working out when to use the repl, and when to write tests
15:51	arohner	crazzyford: that's really a question of personal taste, and the riskiness of your project
15:52	chouser	best is if you can pick out a process that makes it easy to move snippets from the repl to a test suite
15:52	crazzyford	so I've been writing a simple webapp
15:52	crazzyford	and loadsa stuff I would have previously written tests for I now just do at the repl
15:53	crazzyford	apart from authentication things
15:53	crazzyford	which are all tested out pretty heavily
15:54	crazzyford	everywhere else it seems kinda pointless to test things, in that the code is so simple there's really not much to test
15:54	chouser	crazzyford: you're aware of how many tests rhickey has written for clojure itself, right?
15:55	crazzyford	none iirc
15:55	chouser	exactly
15:55	chouser	so there's one opinion for ya. :-)
15:55	crazzyford	aye
15:59	technomancy	crazzyford: if you keep as much of your code in pure functions as possible, it's easy to write simple tests for it
15:59	technomancy	then for the messy stateful UI stuff you could punt on automated testing and do it by hand
15:59	crazzyford	which is what I've been doing
15:59	crazzyford	it just annoys me
15:59	technomancy	automated testing for web apps that use nontrivial JS is usually more trouble than it's worth in my experience
16:00	crazzyford	guess I could go look at selenium or summat
16:00	crazzyford	aye
16:00	technomancy	so freakng complicated
16:00	crazzyford	the other thing that bothers me about testing is that `lein test` takes freaking ages
16:01	arohner	webdriver is somewhat simpler than selenium, but it's still a mess
16:01	crazzyford	and I'm used to running tests after every save (or thereabouts)
16:01	technomancy	crazzyford: oh yeah... lein test is for that one final sanity check before you commit
16:01	technomancy	it's not for TDD
16:01	technomancy	for TDD you want something like clojure-test-mode
16:01	technomancy	something you don't need to spin up a new JVM for
16:02	tknudsen	has BDD found popularity with clojure developers?
16:02	crazzyford	there's circumspec
16:02	technomancy	crazzyford: if you're not using slime I think there's a nailgun plugin for lein test
16:02	crazzyford	but the api is still under heavy development
16:02	crazzyford	I'm using slime
16:02	tknudsen	crazzyford, thanks
16:02	technomancy	crazzyford: definitely try clojure-test-mode then
16:03	technomancy	it highlights failures inside the Emacs buffer, so you don't have to manually match up line numbers
16:03	technomancy	super-handy
16:03	crazzyford	is there a guide to clojure-test-mode somewhere
16:03	crazzyford	heh
16:03	crazzyford	like augment.el?
16:04	technomancy	exactly!
16:04	technomancy	except not generalized
16:04	technomancy	crazzyford: just install it with package.el, open your test file, and hit C-c C-, to run the tests
16:04	technomancy	nuthin to it
16:05	technomancy	oh damn... there's actually a bug in package.el that may prevent it from getting installed right.
16:05	technomancy	I have the bugfix, but it hasn't been applied yet
16:05	crazzyford	seems to be installed right
16:05	crazzyford	I never managed to make it work before now though
16:05	technomancy	oh?
16:06	crazzyford	can't remember the exact error
16:06	technomancy	you weren't using contrib test-is, were you?
16:06	crazzyford	nah installing it from package.el wasn't working
16:07	crazzyford	and I'm using clojure.test
16:07	technomancy	oh, right. to work around the bug just rm ~/.emacs.d/elpa/swank-clojure* before you install, and it will get re-installed.
16:07	crazzyford	it works fine now, so eh
16:07	crazzyford	don't think I have swank-clojure installed, using lein slime and slime-connect
16:07	technomancy	strange, I just fixed that bug last night; no way the fix has made it to you yet. =)
16:08	technomancy	oh, that makes sense
16:08	crazzyford	aye
16:08	crazzyford	yeah that's pretty awesome
16:08	crazzyford	at least it would be if clojure had nicer stack traces :/
16:08	hiredman	clojure.stacktrace
16:09	chouser	clojure stack traces are so rish with information.
16:09	chouser	rich
16:09	chouser	:-)
16:10	tknudsen	chouser, perfect. I was in need of more reading.
16:12	tknudsen	I see that compojure (off-topic?) has been sorted into more libraries. I have a website that would provide a good deal of traffic without commercial interference that may help with debugging.
16:13	tknudsen	sorted/simplified
16:13	crazzyford	technomancy thanks a bunch for that
16:14	crazzyford	huge help
16:14	crazzyford	now I just need to move my tests out of circumspec and into clojure.test
16:15	mebaran151	my partner is writing a set of macros that would take tests from the repl and automatically save them in a test suite
16:15	mebaran151	it's kind of cool
16:15	mebaran151	like an interactive test maker
16:17	chouser	I wrote a thing for our book -- goes through the text of each chapter and confirms that examples produce the output and return value shown in the text.
16:17	tknudsen	chouser, what's your book title?
16:17	chouser	"The Joy of Clojure"
16:18	mebaran151	I feel like cooking
16:18	chouser	I'm sure that bit of code would frustrate any confirmed literate programming advocate. If there are any of those left.
16:18	chouser	mebaran151: :-)
16:18	tknudsen	I was thinking of purchasing the beta of the aPress clojure book. Love their CL book.
16:18	chouser	tknudsen: nothing to buy quite yet. Any day now, so they say...
16:18	mebaran151	which bit of code?
16:18	chouser	mebaran151: the bit of code I wrote to extract examples and their output from our book text.
16:19	mebaran151	ah
16:21	chouser	but it behaves as a sort of test suite for the book itself. kinda interesting.
16:21	hiredman	neat
16:22	chouser	of course it also occasionally tries to use the Clojure compiler on bits of scheme or java code. :-P
16:24	hiredman	time to use some bayesian filtering for languages
16:24	chouser	heh
16:24	crazzyford	just search the text above the code snippet for "java" or "scheme"
16:25	hiredman	crazzyford: how boring is that
16:25	crazzyford	true
16:26	mebaran151	I should think there should be tagging in the markup
16:26	hiredman	https://ci-bayes.dev.java.net/
16:26	mebaran151	the book itself could be a giant ant script
16:27	hiredman	pffft
16:27	crazzyford	hell
16:27	crazzyford	write your book in clojure as well
16:27	hiredman	tagging is just shifting work from the computer to the author, which is shifting it in the wrong direction
16:27	hiredman	crazzyford: feed #clojure logs through a markov chain generator
16:29	mebaran151	well I often whish my IDE and wordprocessor used a richer data structure than .... flat everything shows text
16:29	mebaran151	*wish
16:30	hiredman	~hiredman
16:30	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
16:30	hiredman	:\|
16:30	hiredman	~hiredman
16:30	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
16:30	Chousuke	:/
16:30	hiredman	clourebot never gives the factoid I want
16:31	hiredman	clojurebot: latex?
16:31	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:31	hiredman	~hiredman
16:31	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
16:31	mebaran151	~soup
16:31	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:31	hiredman	that is a random selection from four or five factiods about me
16:31	mebaran151	oh
16:31	mebaran151	ha
16:31	tknudsen	Programming Clojure by Holloway looks good. I see that the author also wrote circumspec.
16:32	hiredman	~hiredman
16:32	clojurebot	hiredman <3 XeLaTeX
16:32	hiredman	yay!
16:32	chouser	I dislike LaTeX as a source language.
16:33	tknudsen	chouser, you would write a book in sexp instead of latex?
16:34	tknudsen	err s-exp
16:51	Kjellski	Is the code for (ns ...) outdated at http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/ns ? Seems like it doesn´t work without vectors for me...
16:51	Kjellski	Or do I need the actual build?
17:11	Kjellski	Where can I get an actual clojure-contrib.jar?
17:12	technomancy	Kjellski: build.clojure.org should have one
17:12	Kjellski	technomancy : thanks!
17:13	crazzyford	so if I'm in src/foo.clj, can it run the tests from test/foo-test.clj
17:14	Kjellski	technomancy : actually it would be pretty nice if that was mentioned somewhere on clojure.org... thanks again (pasting to favorites)
17:14	technomancy	crazzyford: I started on some functionality to do that, but our project at work is such a mess wrt directory layout that calculating the relationship between implementation files and test files was going to be a huge pain
17:14	technomancy	Kjellski: agreed.
17:15	technomancy	crazzyford: the problem is there's not really a widely-accepted mapping between the two that you can rely on
17:16	technomancy	I guess if lein spit out an empty test file when it did "lein new" it would go a fair ways towards creating such a convention
17:16	crazzyford	true
17:16	crazzyford	also major thanks for lein
17:17	crazzyford	I barely got into clojure before it existed due to laziness with managing the classpath etc
17:17	technomancy	pain is your software's way of telling you to write some code to fix it. =)
17:17	DapperDan	technomancy: to back up a default file/directory convention, there could be a mechanism for explicitly linking source and test files from within the files themselves. what do you think?
17:18	seths	technomancy: seconded for a skeleton testfile from lein new
17:19	technomancy	DapperDan: namespace-level metadata would do it, but there's a bug in the compiler right now that deletes metadata for namespaces that are AOT'd
17:19	technomancy	so I'm hesitant
17:19	technomancy	clojurebot: #232
17:19	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:19	technomancy	clojurebot: ticket #232
17:19	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/yhlzzjc, :summary "Locals cleared too aggressively on delay", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-12-31T01:27:06+00:00"}
17:20	technomancy	clojurebot: ticket #130
17:20	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/ndkovn, :summary "Namespace metadata lost in AOT compile", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-06-19T04:47:33+00:00"}
17:20	technomancy	that's the one
17:21	technomancy	with c-in-c "right around the corner" there's not a lot of motivation to fix compiler bugs like that
17:22	DapperDan	Does c-in-c have a milestone? (By another name, perhaps?)
17:22	technomancy	I don't think so
17:23	DapperDan	while i have your attention, thanks a lot for your work with lein and swank. do you get any of the Clojure donation money, or do you have a donation link of your own?
17:25	technomancy	thanks! I don't have any donation stuff set up, but if you want to help the best thing you could do is buy the Clojure PeepCode and recommend it to others since I get royalties from that.
17:27	DapperDan	noted. i think a boilerplate note on your blog to the effect of "if you liked this, buy X" would be appropriate.
17:27	seths	DapperDan: I heartily recommend the Clojure PeepCode
17:29	seths	it doesn
17:29	seths	t even scare people with Emacs
17:29	technomancy	DapperDan: yeah, good idea.
17:32	DapperDan	technomancy: on your github repos as well. with a deep link to the peepcode screencast page, for pagerank. i still think you should have e.g. a paypal donate page, because i could see myself donating once for lein and once for swank.
17:33	technomancy	DapperDan: I can't say I've done enough with swank to take donations for it. =)
17:33	technomancy	I've only taken over from the original author and made it easier to install and done a few bugfixes.
17:57	Kjellski	Anyone with a bigger example on parsing xml with zip-filter?
18:10	hiredman	http://blogs.azulsystems.com/cliff/2010/01/biased-locking.html <-- this makes biased locking sound bad for stm
18:16	seths	has anyone tried the Azul JVM with Clojure?
18:17	hiredman	rhickey's ant colony sim has been run on an azul box
18:17	chouser	that was traveling salesman using an ant algorithm, right? Not the food-gathering one.
18:18	hiredman	I don't know
18:42	hiredman	clojurebot: #clojure?
18:42	clojurebot	this is not IRC, this is #clojure. We aspire to better than that.
18:48	chouser	rhickey: you're not around, itching to answer a question about agent error handling race conditions, are you?
19:08	seths	wow, the funding is going pretty well!
19:08	seths	that is great
19:16	chouser	7 corps -- very cool.
19:20	mebaran151	does Clojure have a non-profit governing board to handle donations?
19:20	chouser	nope. Donations go to Rich.
19:24	DapperDan	Are there other open-source projects which handle this well? Maybe there is a webapp idea behind making it easy for any developer to solicit/receive donations.
19:24	danlarkin	it's called paypal :)
19:26	DapperDan	I'm looking at Paypal as 'just' a payment mechanism, I'm talking about bounties/auctions for milestones or bugs, graphs so people can see how close a goal is to being met, etc. Like elance on a micro-scale.
19:27	seths	btw, pls consider s/paypal/google checkout/
19:27	DapperDan	One could still use paypal or Amazon wishlists for the actual donation.
19:27	seths	or at least +=
19:27	DapperDan	sure
19:28	seths	DapperDan: what is elance?
19:28	the-kenny	seths: No, Google Checkout only accepts Credit Cards. That's endlessly annoying
19:30	DapperDan	http://www.elance.com/
19:34	mebaran151	I've often considered writing an app that would let an opensource project embed a donator
19:34	mebaran151	where a user could set some sort of rate based on usage, with some sort of cap involved
19:35	mebaran151	maybe distributed between lots and lots of projects that all signed up
19:35	chouser	mebaran151: based on ratios I could set.
19:35	mebaran151	yeah exactly
19:35	mebaran151	or ratios that you derive from some other function
19:36	mebaran151	like open time
19:36	chouser	mebaran151: that can be initialized by a tool that looks at what packages I have installed
19:36	chouser	right
19:36	mebaran151	yeah
19:36	mebaran151	does this already exist?
19:36	mebaran151	I was thinking it could be embedded in license files
19:36	chouser	and only takes 5% of my donation. :-P
19:36	mebaran151	that would automatically get parsed
19:36	mebaran151	heh, or maybe nothing
19:36	mebaran151	like open source style
19:36	DapperDan	it could be linked to a run-time profiler, and weight fund allocations based on who commited the code.
19:37	chouser	the most money going to the authors of the least efficient code?
19:37	mebaran151	the reason it would have to take 5 percent is that, working with authorize.net, you already give 5 percent to the credit card companies and paypal for moving the money
19:37	chouser	I don't thinnk anything automatic would be very good, but something that seeds your ratios with something sane that you can then tweak.
19:37	mebaran151	yeah
19:37	mebaran151	exactly
19:38	mebaran151	my company is actually developing something similar for media companies
19:38	DapperDan	chouser: profiler could be for what functions are called, not how long they took to run.
19:38	mebaran151	but it seems really easy to move it into open source
19:39	DapperDan	mebaran151: it does sound like a similar problem to royalties for AV usage.
19:39	mebaran151	yeah
19:39	mebaran151	very similar
19:39	mebaran151	the biggest problem in open source though is what you're buying
19:39	mebaran151	we all give money to Rich with the implicit promise he'll keep working on the code
19:40	mebaran151	with a company, the terms are explicit
19:40	mebaran151	so it would be nice to link open source payments with a kind of escrow
19:40	chouser	nah, I'd be happy to pay for the work already done.
19:41	mebaran151	that's a fair point
19:41	chouser	if they stop developing, they're likely to be overtaken by another project. when I start using that, I'll stop paying for the old one.
19:41	DapperDan	mebaran151: there are lots of models, e.g. "i want [this bug] fixed, and will pay X". or "here's $$ to pay for milestone Clojure-in-Clojure"
19:41	mebaran151	yeah, settable by the user
19:41	mebaran151	or even for libraries: I want a great library for Amazon S3 or what not
19:41	DapperDan	or documentation
19:42	mebaran151	haha documentation!
19:42	DapperDan	screencasts
19:42	mebaran151	this is UNIX
19:42	mebaran151	read the source ...
19:42	mebaran151	but yeah
19:42	mebaran151	I think it would be a great tool for open source if it were seamless and integrated over a lot of projects
19:42	mebaran151	like I gave money to Clojure, but I really should give money to Ubuntu too, because they made my dev environment livable
19:42	mebaran151	and to Netbeans
19:43	DapperDan	integration with github, assembla, lighthouse, etc.
19:43	mebaran151	and to even the nice guy who wrote XChat
19:43	mebaran151	well if the app had postbacks, we'd be set
19:43	DapperDan	agreed
19:43	mebaran151	but I don't have 2 grand a month
19:43	mebaran151	I do have like 100, and I'd like it to be fairly distributed to projects that need it
19:44	DapperDan	yep
19:45	hiredman	what does "give money to ubuntu" mean? give money to canonical?
19:45	hiredman	(or whatever it's called)
19:46	mebaran151	well support ubuntu development
19:46	chouser	you can "buy" ubuntu, can't you?
19:46	mebaran151	it was meant to illustrate that there are a lot of good projects
19:46	chouser	yes
19:46	mebaran151	and it would be nice if donation were automated
19:46	mebaran151	and setup in some fair way
19:47	hiredman	I find calling it a "donation" kind of odd
19:47	mebaran151	well Ubuntu isn't as good an example, because it has a company
19:47	mebaran151	just like github
19:47	mebaran151	but I used to use ArchLinxu
19:47	mebaran151	ArchLinxu
19:48	hiredman	mebaran151: ok, so if you want to give money to archlinux, that means what? you give money to some foundation? to a single developer?
19:48	mebaran151	and they definitely don't have a rich Mark Shuttleworth to help support them
19:48	mebaran151	that's the other issue in open source
19:48	mebaran151	usually the governance is unclear
19:49	hiredman	this kind of market organization is a difficult problem
19:49	DapperDan	hiredman: I was talking about funding a very specific unit of work, e.g. a bug or milestone, not a whole project.
19:49	mebaran151	but let's assume there existed an entity that could accept donations
19:49	mebaran151	and disperse them properly
19:49	hiredman	DapperDan: so whatever entity does the work gets the funds
19:49	mebaran151	say by bug fixed, or unit of work
19:49	DapperDan	hiredman: yes
19:49	hiredman	mebaran151: that's just it
19:50	mebaran151	or they could prioritize bugs per se
19:50	hiredman	you can't waive your hands and assume perfect distribution
19:50	mebaran151	say bug x is worth more than bug y
19:50	mebaran151	not quite, but I think if the payment system existed
19:50	mebaran151	open sourcers wouldhave a huge incentive to have better organization
19:50	DapperDan	put auctions on the bugs "I'll fix it for $X" or bounties "whoever fixes gets $Y", that will prioritise them
19:50	hiredman	what DapperDan (dig the reference) is proposing is an actual market
19:51	mebaran151	the problem with that is that unsexy bugs are less likely to get bounties
19:51	mebaran151	or good architectural changes
19:51	hiredman	less work since the market assumes the work of distribution as well
19:51	chouser	but that's a lot of market overhead for each little piece of work
19:51	mebaran151	exactly
19:51	hiredman	sure
19:51	DapperDan	hiredman: I haven't studied economics but OK
19:51	mebaran151	but both these systems can work together
19:51	chouser	and puts a disinsentive on fixing bugs quickly before they get bid up
19:51	DapperDan	mebaran151: architectural changes would come under milestones?
19:52	mebaran151	maybe
19:52	mebaran151	but who decides milestones
19:52	mebaran151	you need an organization to do this
19:52	hiredman	isn't there some bug database where you can file bugs against anything?
19:53	mebaran151	but these are two separate problem
19:53	hiredman	essentially you want rent-a-coder without the feeling of being in the ghetto
19:53	mebaran151	one is getting money to open source projects
19:53	mebaran151	the other is internal distribution
19:53	mebaran151	they're related, but can be solved independently
19:53	hiredman	mebaran151: one won't work without the other
19:53	mebaran151	well you need tools for both
19:54	mebaran151	but a donation to an opensource project can be as simple as supporting a single developer, like for Clojure
19:54	hiredman	you cannot give money to "clojure" there is no entity "clojure" to recieve the money, you can just give money to rhickey
19:54	mebaran151	or building something more complex, like if I were to donate to the Apache project
19:54	chouser	single-person projects already have the "internal distribution" problem solved.
19:54	mebaran151	which has governance etc
19:54	chouser	right
19:54	mebaran151	a projects that have more than a single person, really probably need to get a governance board etc
19:55	mebaran151	like I know GNOME has a foundation
19:55	hiredman	mebaran151: yes, but at that point you are handing over the control of the distribution of funds to the apache project
19:55	mebaran151	when I donate to charity, I do that anyway
19:55	hiredman	I'd rather just give money to a developer
19:56	hiredman	mebaran151: and you see stories of outrage over the small percentage of money that doesn't go to 'overhead' for charitys
19:56	mebaran151	well I mean both schemes could be developed
19:57	mebaran151	they're not mutually exclusive
19:57	mebaran151	developers could register to have their worked sponsored
19:57	mebaran151	bugs could register to have their work sponsored
19:57	mebaran151	projects could register
19:57	mebaran151	if I trusted the Apache Foundation to make good decisions, I'd probably be amenable to letting them figure out what needs to get done
20:00	mebaran151	if I wanted to micromanage, that option should be available too
20:01	DapperDan	mebaran151: ideas from kivo.org would probably apply
20:02	mebaran151	I thnk that's actually a little too active
20:02	mebaran151	it's gotta be like a set it and forget it sorta thing, that can be tweaked as necessary
20:07	mebaran151	bug bounties only make sense for very well qualified, very informed customers
20:16	technomancy	rich gets 10% of the peepcode monies
20:23	mebaran151	heh, I was looking for evening project, maybe I'll throw something together in compojure
20:24	DapperDan	will you send me an email if you get something working?
20:24	mebaran151	oh yeah sure
20:29	technomancy	mebaran151: you should think about contributing to clojars
20:29	technomancy	that's a useful compojure project
20:29	mebaran151	you mean donation or code wise?
20:29	technomancy	just as a project to work on
20:30	mebaran151	oh yeah sure
20:30	technomancy	it's helpful to be able to take a look at a working project to see how it's structured, etc
20:30	mebaran151	actually my colleague and me were talking about that just today
20:30	mebaran151	over lunch
20:30	mebaran151	we were thinking of cooler ways to search clojure projects
20:31	mebaran151	like by docstring or by function, or being able to cherrypick individual functiosn with dependencies between them
20:31	mebaran151	and get a custom namespace with exactly what you needed
20:31	mebaran151	(he's a computational linguist, so these problems are candy for him)
20:32	quizme	is Lau here ?
20:33	mebaran151	I was thinking of download all the clojars to get a dataset, but I'm worried about your bandwidth bill :)
20:51	mebaran151	technomancy, what would be the best way to get all the clojars for you?
20:55	technomancy	mebaran151: I was talking with _ato about enabling couchdb replication to do that, but I don't know if it got anywhere. =\
20:56	mebaran151	is your fts powered by couchdb?
20:56	technomancy	I told him I would help with the browse functionality, but I got distracted by leiningen, swank, and package.el
20:56	technomancy	mebaran151: it's couch-lucene IIRC
20:56	technomancy	http://github.com/rnewson/couchdb-lucene
20:57	mebaran151	did you ever look at hypersonicsql
20:57	technomancy	mebaran151: I don't run clojars; it's _ato
20:57	technomancy	(Alex Osborne)
20:57	technomancy	I just wrote leiningen
20:57	mebaran151	oh
20:58	technomancy	I hacked the codebase a little right after lein was released, but that's all
20:58	mebaran151	well, actually we wanted to do some source investigation (like unzip all the clojars and actually do some semantic indexing)
20:58	technomancy	there aren't enough jars for bandwidth to be a big issue yet
20:59	technomancy	once there are, hopefully we can use couchdb replication to make it easy for folks to host mirrors
20:59	technomancy	couch replication is badass
20:59	mebaran151	aren't the jars files though?
20:59	technomancy	yeah, but you can attach files to couchdb documents
21:00	mebaran151	do you actually stuff them into couchdb as blobs?
21:00	mebaran151	*does he?
21:00	mebaran151	I played with CouchDB about version 0.6 and got annoyed that they kept breaking it
21:00	technomancy	I don't know if he does yet, but I think that's the way it'll be done in the future to support replication
21:00	technomancy	it's come a looooong way since 0.6
21:00	mebaran151	I can buy it
21:01	mebaran151	but I left for h2 which was based on hsql with integrated lucene
21:01	mebaran151	that was a surprisingly well integrated, nice experience
21:01	mebaran151	and sql replication is usually pretty simple to setup
21:02	mebaran151	couch does master to master replication though right?
21:03	technomancy	it does
21:03	technomancy	but for clojars only the main site would perform writes
21:07	mebaran151	yeah, I never trusted master to master replication
21:08	mebaran151	it feels like something that should be application specific to be done right
21:10	technomancy	I can't say I've used it in action
21:13	mebaran151	what makes couchdb master slave replication better than sql replication
21:14	mebaran151	just easier to setup?
21:14	technomancy	yeah, you just point it at an HTTP URL and click go; nothing to it
21:14	mebaran151	heh, that is kinda neat
21:15	technomancy	can be initaited via curl, or whatever
21:33	mebaran151	I'd be more than happy to contribute to clojars though
23:41	chouser	haha. My Java is so bad.
23:42	hiredman	:(
23:42	chouser	I'm null-punning everywhere. When the compiler calls me on it I try to compare to NULL
23:42	hiredman	hah
23:42	hiredman	just rewrite clojure on it :P
23:43	chouser	I'm a Clojure programmer, trapped in C++ and trying to use javac...
23:47	johnmn3	Hello
23:52	defn	chouser: i bet my java is worse :)
23:57	mebaran151	whenever I write Java, I feel like I'm in the Soviet Union
23:57	mebaran151	with all the factories, and interfaces, and hierarchies, and five year plans