2009-12-12
| 00:02 | technomancy | back when I was all "HAY GUYSE HOW DO U PARSE A STRING?" |
| 00:03 | hiredman | hyperspec |
| 00:03 | hiredman | hyperspec? |
| 00:04 | hiredman | performance? |
| 00:04 | clojurebot | http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc46 |
| 00:07 | hiredman | clojure? |
| 00:07 | clojurebot | clojure is cheating |
| 00:08 | tolstoy | Hey, that's what my manager, and his manager, and the architect said. |
| 00:12 | hiredman | clojurebot: twbray is <reply>you have to watch twbray, if you take your eye off him for a second he is likely to blog post |
| 00:12 | clojurebot | c'est bon! |
| 00:12 | twbray | hiredman: huh? |
| 00:13 | hiredman | twbray: just making sure clojurebot knows who you are |
| 00:14 | twbray | clojurebot: Pleased to meetcha |
| 00:14 | clojurebot | Pardon? |
| 00:34 | alexyk | somnium: pingy-wingy |
| 00:50 | skybound_ | is there anything like prxml that accepts an outputstream/writer? xml/emit seems cumbersome to use |
| 00:55 | alexyk | how do you get a seq from a Java iterator? |
| 00:58 | _ato | alexyk: call iterator-seq on it |
| 00:58 | alexyk | ok |
| 01:00 | hiredman | skybound_: emit prints to *out*, and you can bind *out* to whatever |
| 01:02 | alexyk | how do you sort a seq of tuples like (["a" 1] ["b" 2]) in descending order of the numbers? |
| 01:02 | hiredman | ,(doc sort-by) |
| 01:02 | clojurebot | "([keyfn coll] [keyfn comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll, where the sort order is determined by comparing (keyfn item). If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator." |
| 01:04 | alexyk | hiredman: right, I forgot what java Comparator looks like :) |
| 01:04 | hiredman | forget the Comparator bit |
| 01:04 | hiredman | ,(sort-by val '([a 2] [b 3])) |
| 01:04 | clojurebot | java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry |
| 01:04 | hiredman | grr |
| 01:05 | hiredman | ,(sort-by second '([a 2] [b 3])) |
| 01:05 | clojurebot | ([a 2] [b 3]) |
| 01:05 | skybound_ | hiredman: right :-) thanks |
| 01:06 | alexyk | hiredman: almost there! |
| 01:07 | hiredman | ! |
| 01:07 | npm | anybody know of any clojure packages or tricks that would help me find a ranked set of indexes within a sequence where a subsequence of values "best fits" within a larger sequence of values. (e.g. someone selects a set of features from a audio/video resource that i extract http://nielsmayer.com/prototype-11-17-2009.jpg .... and then i want to find that same selection in other sequences from other recordings that might not be exactly the same |
| 01:07 | npm | ) |
| 01:08 | alexyk | hiredman: so sort-by cannot do descending? |
| 01:08 | Carkh | ,(sort-by second > '([a 2] [b 3])) |
| 01:08 | clojurebot | ([b 3] [a 2]) |
| 01:08 | alexyk | ,(sort #(> (%1 1) (%2 1)) '(["a" 1] ["a" 2])) ; this works too |
| 01:09 | Carkh | you need to read the doc with more attention ! |
| 01:09 | clojurebot | (["a" 2] ["a" 1]) |
| 01:09 | npm | ,(+ 1 1) |
| 01:09 | clojurebot | 2 |
| 01:09 | npm | hm |
| 01:09 | npm | cool |
| 01:09 | alexyk | Carkh: how does second > combine together? |
| 01:09 | Carkh | ,(doc sort-by) |
| 01:09 | clojurebot | "([keyfn coll] [keyfn comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll, where the sort order is determined by comparing (keyfn item). If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator." |
| 01:09 | alexyk | ah right |
| 01:09 | Carkh | see the first line of the doc |
| 01:09 | alexyk | sorry I was distracted by java comparator from sort |
| 01:09 | npm | racks brain for which lisp "," syntax is from. CL? |
| 01:09 | Carkh | =) |
| 01:09 | hiredman | I guess I did tell him to ignore the comparator bit |
| 01:10 | Carkh | npm : clojurebot lisp, prety nice but you can't defn =( |
| 01:10 | alexyk | Carkh: yes, hiredman is to blame for everything good and bad :) |
| 01:10 | Carkh | alexyk : will do ! |
| 01:10 | npm | hm, so if it's clojure,how can it prevent me from calling execute in java? |
| 01:11 | alexyk | :) |
| 01:11 | hiredman | clojurebot: whose job is it to recieve all blame? |
| 01:11 | clojurebot | that's KirinDave's job |
| 01:11 | hiredman | clojurebot: whose job is it to prevent npm from executing java? |
| 01:11 | npm | clojurebot how can you prevent me from creating infinite threads and DOSing you? |
| 01:11 | clojurebot | ☕ |
| 01:12 | hiredman | clojurebot: we demand answers! |
| 01:12 | clojurebot | Pardon? |
| 01:12 | hiredman | clojurebot: you heard me! |
| 01:12 | clojurebot | hiredman: I'm just giving you a second chance |
| 01:12 | hiredman | clojurebot: a wise guy, huh? |
| 01:12 | clojurebot | a is t |
| 01:13 | npm | clojurebot do you pass the turing test? |
| 01:14 | hiredman | clojurebot: what about the turing test? |
| 01:14 | clojurebot | what is wrong with you |
| 01:14 | hiredman | clojurebot: tell us about the turing test? |
| 01:14 | clojurebot | the answer is 42 |
| 01:15 | _ato | hehe, just got real 12m0.027s / user 182m39.276s / sys 26m25.290s on twbray's widefinder 2 test, with shared clojure hashmaps inside atoms with atomiclongs as values. :-) that beats the java entry and I think I've still got a little room to improve |
| 01:17 | _ato | _mst had some great suggestions, which for some reason make the garbage collector pauses longer but it ends up being faster in the end anyway |
| 01:17 | hiredman | trashy suggestions |
| 01:17 | _mst | hahah yep |
| 01:18 | cp2 | I failed the Touring test. |
| 01:18 | cp2 | er |
| 01:18 | cp2 | oops |
| 01:18 | cp2 | :| |
| 01:26 | polypus | clojurebot: what are your passions? |
| 01:26 | clojurebot | what is wrong with you |
| 01:42 | alexyk | oh my god, running pagerank on twitter shows that justinbieber is #1 by mentions. I needed to look it up. Clojure brings me knowledge! |
| 01:42 | alexyk | he & 1000 girls talking about him. |
| 01:43 | alexyk | thank you, Clojure, I needed to program for decades to get to study Ashton Kutcher in detail with your help. |
| 01:46 | alexyk | and Britney is only #50. |
| 01:53 | wavis | isa? is backwards... |
| 01:54 | wavis | can't use it with condp |
| 02:23 | qed | alexyk: haha, how are you doing that? |
| 02:23 | qed | a library or something homemade? |
| 02:23 | alexyk | qed: clojure + jung2 :) |
| 02:24 | alexyk | although clojure is a bit slow for pagerank, I'll use OpenMP and good ol' Fortran next |
| 02:24 | alexyk | for that part |
| 02:26 | alexyk | I mean even Java is slow for PageRank. Bow before C++, Java! |
| 03:38 | atif | ping |
| 05:45 | angerman | c++? |
| 06:13 | somnium | ~c++ |
| 06:13 | clojurebot | Huh? |
| 06:14 | somnium | clojurebot: c++ |is| just what is a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was the last time you needed one? |
| 06:15 | somnium | ~c++ |
| 06:15 | somnium | hmm |
| 06:15 | somnium | ,(+ 2 3) |
| 06:16 | clojurebot | No entiendo |
| 06:16 | clojurebot | 5 |
| 06:18 | somnium | clojurebot: c++ is <reply>just what is a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was the last time you needed one? |
| 06:19 | somnium | clojurebot: ping? |
| 06:20 | clojurebot | PONG! |
| 09:50 | interferon | are there any built-ins that let you check parameter types? |
| 10:05 | the-kenny | interferon: Sorry, I don't understand what you trying to do. Can you explain it? |
| 10:05 | interferon | i keep running into problems where i mean to pass an array of maps to a function and, through my own mistakes, i end up passing just the map directly in. |
| 10:05 | interferon | then i get cryptic NPE's |
| 10:06 | interferon | so for debugging purposes, i want osmething like CL's check-type |
| 10:06 | the-kenny | interferon: You can do type-hints on function arguments. |
| 10:06 | interferon | i can write it, but curious if it's built-in |
| 10:06 | interferon | type-hints don't check |
| 10:06 | rhickey | ,(cast String 42) |
| 10:06 | clojurebot | java.lang.ClassCastException |
| 10:06 | rhickey | like that? |
| 10:07 | the-kenny | You can also use (type ..) |
| 10:08 | rhickey | ,((fn [a b] {:pre [(integer? a) (integer? b)]} (+ a b)) 1 2) |
| 10:08 | clojurebot | 3 |
| 10:08 | rhickey | ,((fn [a b] {:pre [(integer? a) (integer? b)]} (+ a b)) "1" 2) |
| 10:08 | clojurebot | java.lang.Exception: Assert failed: (integer? a) |
| 10:08 | rhickey | or that? |
| 10:08 | interferon | wow |
| 10:08 | interferon | :pre and :post |
| 10:08 | interferon | ? |
| 10:11 | interferon | is that a special case? if you pass a map after the function parameters they're interpreted as contract information? |
| 10:13 | rhickey | http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/0ac482878a1dd520cbee2faa0f5f6ab1082ffa76 |
| 10:13 | rhickey | only doc is there right now |
| 10:13 | the-kenny | :pre and :post looks really cool |
| 10:13 | the-kenny | Nice work :) |
| 10:14 | interferon | that's great! |
| 10:14 | interferon | thanks |
| 10:16 | interferon | is there any way to get type hints to become assertions? |
| 10:16 | interferon | so if i have a parameter #^String str and i pass it an int, the function throws an exception |
| 10:16 | interferon | ? |
| 10:22 | rhickey | interferon: you could write a macro to do that, but right now type hints are not runtime assertions |
| 10:22 | interferon | would you be interested in a patch that checks some special variable *treat-type-hints-as-assertions* when functions are defined? |
| 10:23 | rhickey | interferon: no |
| 10:23 | interferon | okay |
| 10:23 | rhickey | I don't want people to think of type hints as other than that - hints to speed up host interop. Turning them into a type system is a whole different story |
| 10:27 | interferon | fair enough |
| 10:49 | lambdatronic | chouser: you around? |
| 10:51 | lambdatronic | ah well, perhaps some other time. |
| 11:01 | angerman | wow, this should have atken less then 10 minutes, and now I'm trying to figure out why clojure calls nth on an Integer. |
| 11:10 | interferon | angerman: throw lots of exceptions to see what's going on |
| 11:11 | interferon | (throw (Exception. (str (type blah) blah ...))) |
| 11:11 | angerman | that's what I've been doing |
| 11:12 | angerman | but user$eval__xxxx$fn__xxxx.invoke |
| 11:12 | angerman | that should be one of my anonymously defined functions |
| 11:13 | hoeck | angerman: that Exception happens often when you try to destructure a number, like: (let [[a b c] 10] a) |
| 11:14 | angerman | hoeck: thanks for the hint. I may have an idea now where to look else |
| 11:15 | interferon | does clj-stacktrace help? |
| 11:16 | angerman | it's currently runnig and didn't crash yet. |
| 11:16 | angerman | I think it was (let [[a b] some-seq] ...) instead of (let [a & b] some-seq]) |
| 11:17 | angerman | hoeck: thanks for pointing out that destructuriing might cause the issue |
| 11:21 | hoeck | angerman: glad I could help, you also may try to (require 'the.ns :reload) the offending namespace, that puts correct source lines into the stacktrace |
| 11:22 | angerman | hoeck: it's a mess. I'm using the slime repl |
| 11:23 | hoeck | angerman: :) |
| 11:59 | stacktracer | what's the function that inverts a predicate? |
| 11:59 | stacktracer | I want a non-nil? predicate ... surely I can do something like: (invert-predicate nil?) |
| 12:00 | tomoj | (complement nil?) |
| 12:00 | LauJensen | Anything in contrib for quick'n'dirty directory recursion ? |
| 12:01 | stacktracer | tomoj: thanks! |
| 12:01 | tomoj | LauJensen: as in, give me all the files in this directory tree in depth-first order? :) |
| 12:02 | LauJensen | tomoj: yes sir |
| 12:02 | tomoj | it's in core |
| 12:02 | tomoj | file-seq |
| 12:02 | LauJensen | Basically 'find .' returning a vector or such |
| 12:02 | tomoj | file-seq on a File gives you a lazy-seq of Files |
| 12:03 | tomoj | starting with the File you pass and then going in depth-first order |
| 12:04 | LauJensen | So I have to supply a file and not just a root dir ? |
| 12:04 | tomoj | root dir is fine, they're still Files in java |
| 12:05 | LauJensen | ah yes I see |
| 12:05 | LauJensen | Thanks |
| 12:05 | tomoj | like (file-seq (java.io.File. "/home/tomoj")) gives me a lazy seq starting with my home dir and then going through every single file inside my home dir |
| 12:05 | LauJensen | yes sir |
| 12:07 | laughingboy | Can anyone here answer some newbie leiningen setup questions? |
| 12:14 | cp2 | ,(file-seq (File. ".")) |
| 12:14 | clojurebot | java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: File |
| 12:14 | cp2 | ,(file-seq (java.io.File. ".")) |
| 12:14 | clojurebot | java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission . read) |
| 12:14 | cp2 | :( |
| 12:19 | qed | hmmm, i think today ill spend some time on the packing problem |
| 12:29 | npm | ,(org.apache.commons.io.FileUtilstoFile (URL "file" "" "/etc/passwd")) |
| 12:29 | npm | well |
| 12:29 | tolstoy | Hah. I wonder how clojure bot implements its sandbox? |
| 12:30 | the-kenny | tolstoy: Look at the source |
| 12:30 | tolstoy | There's source? |
| 12:30 | the-kenny | tolstoy: http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot |
| 12:30 | npm | ,(+ 1 1 ) |
| 12:30 | clojurebot | 2 |
| 12:30 | the-kenny | http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/hiredman/sandbox.clj |
| 12:31 | npm | ,(org.apache.commons.io.FileUtilstoFile "/etc/passwd") |
| 12:31 | clojurebot | java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.apache.commons.io.FileUtilstoFile |
| 12:31 | npm | oh bette |
| 12:31 | npm | r |
| 12:32 | npm | ,(org.apache.commons.io.FileUtils.toFile "/etc/passwd") |
| 12:32 | clojurebot | java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.apache.commons.io.FileUtils.toFile |
| 12:32 | npm | well that's good :-) |
| 12:32 | tolstoy | ,(slurp "/etc/passwd") |
| 12:32 | clojurebot | java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission /etc/passwd read) |
| 12:32 | npm | heh |
| 12:33 | tolstoy | I know nothing at all about that security manager stuff. Cool. Seems worth looking at in some spare moment. |
| 12:33 | npm | i do :-) i'm glad it's working |
| 12:33 | the-kenny | clojure showed me some parts of the java api which I've never seen before |
| 12:33 | the-kenny | like java.net.Authenticator and the security stuff |
| 12:37 | npm | plus access to all sorts of cool useful packages like com.trilead.ssh2.* |
| 12:38 | npm | TODO implement http://lists.xwiki.org/pipermail/users/2009-August/016934.html in clojure rather than groovy |
| 12:49 | qed | anyone have any documentation on reading the java documentation for non-java folks? |
| 12:49 | tolstoy | hah hah. |
| 12:50 | tolstoy | Generally, look at the "interface" classes, like Map, and in there you'll see "implementing classes" like "HashMap" or "TreeMap" or "LinkedHashMap" and so on. |
| 12:51 | tolstoy | But, basically, you only use the interface functions anyway. |
| 12:51 | tolstoy | I think that's what I do, aside from looking at actual examples. |
| 13:24 | Anniepoo | anybody in the SF bay area, bay area clojure's doing a special thing today |
| 13:25 | Anniepoo | we realized lots of folks were in that 'i need to fiddle and ask questions' state, so |
| 13:25 | Anniepoo | today we're meeting in Panera Bread on Millbrae Av. in Millbrae, hanging out with laptops, coding, |
| 13:26 | Anniepoo | sharing knowledge |
| 13:27 | Anniepoo | we're also on Second Life at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Belphegor/4/38/82 |
| 13:27 | cp2 | you sure you guys dont wanna run over to dc real quick? :D |
| 13:27 | Anniepoo | get an SL account, we're there too! |
| 13:30 | Anniepoo | www.secondlife.com - download the software (they have linux) and get free account |
| 13:41 | the-kenny | Anniepoo: Uhm.. why do you advertise second life to us? |
| 13:42 | Anniepoo | only because we're having a clojure meetup there and in the SF bay area |
| 13:43 | Anniepoo | and cp2 suggested we 'run over to dc real quick' |
| 13:43 | Anniepoo | SL seemed a more practical solution for him |
| 13:45 | ssideris | hello people |
| 13:45 | tomoj | you're having a clojure meetup in SL? |
| 13:46 | Anniepoo | yes |
| 13:46 | tomoj | awesome |
| 13:46 | cp2 | heh =P |
| 13:46 | ssideris | is this the right place for someone (me) who's learning clojure right now to ask newbie questions? |
| 13:46 | Anniepoo | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Belphegor/10/43/82 |
| 13:46 | cp2 | yessir |
| 13:48 | ssideris | ok i'm trying to right something for doing pattern matching for s-expressions (i'm also new to functional programming) |
| 13:48 | ssideris | (defn mToken [x] (fn [b] (= x b))) |
| 13:48 | ssideris | this would produce matchers matching an exact value |
| 13:49 | ssideris | i also have this: (defn mAny [] (fn [x] (true))) |
| 13:49 | tomoj | don't you want more than just a boolean answer? |
| 13:49 | ssideris | i'm aiming low for the time being |
| 13:50 | ssideris | trying to get it to say whether it matches or not |
| 13:50 | tomoj | ah ok |
| 13:50 | ssideris | and i can say "match this OR this" using: (defn mOr [f1 f2] (fn [x] (or (f1 x) (f2 x)))) |
| 13:50 | ssideris | and (i'm hoping that) this is for concatenating matchers: (defn m+ [f1 f2] (fn [x y] (and (f1 x) (f2 y)))) |
| 13:51 | ssideris | (at this point i'm starting to realize that maybe i should be using pastebin or somthing) |
| 13:51 | tomoj | for concatenation I was imagining something that takes however many arguments |
| 13:52 | ssideris | good point, will try and refactor |
| 13:52 | ssideris | anyway, so I construct this matcher: (def matcher (m+ (mToken "haha") mAny)) |
| 13:52 | ssideris | and I would expect it to match this: (matcher4 "haha" 2) |
| 13:52 | ssideris | but i get this: #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: user$mAny (NO_SOURCE_FILE:852)> |
| 13:53 | tomoj | you defined mAny as a zero-arg function |
| 13:53 | tomoj | so (mAny) gives you the matcher |
| 13:53 | ssideris | ah! |
| 13:54 | tomoj | you could instead do (defn mAny [x] true) if you just want to use mAny directly |
| 13:54 | ssideris | ok, so I was passing the function rather than calling it |
| 13:54 | ssideris | this still gets me frequently |
| 13:54 | ssideris | especially when trying to do something smart |
| 13:55 | tomoj | hmm, seems there's another problem, though |
| 13:56 | tomoj | oh, you have (defn mAny [] (fn [x] (true))) |
| 13:56 | tomoj | but true is not a function |
| 13:56 | ssideris | i think i do need the matcher-producing version of mAny |
| 13:57 | tomoj | (defn mAny [] (fn [x] true)) should work |
| 13:59 | ssideris | it works! thanks |
| 14:00 | qed | anyone have any advice on improving the performance of: http://devinwalters.com/posts/21 |
| 14:00 | qed | It takes about 30seconds right now |
| 14:02 | tomoj | you don't care about the actual values in the chain, do you? |
| 14:04 | qed | tomoj: i dont believe so |
| 14:05 | tomoj | so you can just use an integer as the accumulator instead of a vector, I'd think? |
| 14:05 | tomoj | not sure how much faster that'd make it go |
| 14:05 | tomoj | the fact that step is a function probably doesn't help either, maybe making it inline would help |
| 14:05 | qed | tomoj: do you have any advice for code profiling? |
| 14:05 | tomoj | nope :( |
| 14:05 | tomoj | I think there are java tools that work for clojure |
| 14:06 | qed | ive been interested in learning how to use profiling tools |
| 14:08 | tomoj | yourkit is not free :( |
| 14:10 | tomoj | well you can download it but it only works for 15 days |
| 14:10 | qed | I found something... :X |
| 14:11 | tomoj | your code is taking much longer than 30 seconds on my computer :'( |
| 14:11 | qed | yeah this is on 4 cores, 8gb of ram |
| 14:11 | qed | 2.66ghz |
| 14:11 | qed | obviously i made some mistakes :) |
| 14:13 | tomoj | took it 493s here |
| 14:13 | tomoj | heh |
| 14:13 | qed | lol omg |
| 14:30 | tomoj | using an integer instead cut it down to 260s |
| 14:30 | tomoj | I think you probably want to try and avoid function calls on integers, use loop and primitives etc |
| 14:40 | qed | tomoj: good advice |
| 14:40 | qed | tomoj: thank you |
| 14:41 | tomoj | not sure how to do all the arithmetic with primitives though |
| 14:42 | tomoj | odd? is bad, and using / is too I think |
| 14:42 | tomoj | bit-and inlines but bit-shift-right doesn't |
| 14:45 | tomoj | that apply at the end looks bad to me as well |
| 14:59 | fliebel | Is there a way to make this less verbose? (clojure.contrib.seq-utils/shuffle [:a :b :c :d]) |
| 15:00 | cp2 | (ns foo.bar (:use [clojure.contrib seq-utils :only [shuffle]])) |
| 15:01 | cp2 | (shuffle ....) |
| 15:01 | cp2 | alternatively you can use :as as well |
| 15:01 | cp2 | (ns foo.bar (:use [clojure.contrib seq-utils :as sutils :only [shuffle]])) |
| 15:01 | cp2 | (squtils/shuffle ...) |
| 15:03 | tomoj | that's require, no? |
| 15:18 | fliebel | cp2: thanks |
| 16:34 | qed | Anyone here familiar with compojure? |
| 16:34 | Carkh | yes |
| 17:01 | the-kenny | I want to replace the error-handling with exception in clojure-couchdb with return-values.. but what should I return for an error? |
| 17:01 | danlarkin | the-kenny: good idea |
| 17:02 | the-kenny | Something like {:error true :cause "text"}? |
| 17:02 | danlarkin | nil? |
| 17:02 | the-kenny | Yeah, but it isn't possible to get the cause of the error with that |
| 17:03 | the-kenny | I could also do something like a ref where I can store the errors |
| 17:03 | the-kenny | ...but that's not very beautiful in my opinion |
| 17:04 | danlarkin | yeah no that's not optimal |
| 17:05 | Carkh | why do you want return codes ? |
| 17:05 | _ato | the-kenny: My preference is nil for "not found" and exception for real errors (like connection problems or malformed requests or whatever) |
| 17:05 | the-kenny | I don't like the exceptions... and some others here too |
| 17:05 | the-kenny | _ato: hm.. |
| 17:05 | Carkh | ato : what if you found a nil ? |
| 17:06 | the-kenny | _ato: But then you would have to define "not found" ;) |
| 17:07 | _ato | Carkh: maybe do the same thing as Clojure, have an optional argument you can set for not found which defaults to nil? |
| 17:07 | Carkh | chouser made a library with common lisp style conditions |
| 17:07 | Carkh | though that's is the same as exceptions, only restartable |
| 17:08 | the-kenny | _ato: But couchdb returns some useful informations for an "empty" view, like total document count and such things. |
| 17:09 | _ato | hmm. I think Clutch always returns a map.. with like {:rowcount 1234, :rows [...]} |
| 17:09 | Carkh | the-kenny : so hat are the drawbacks of exceptions compared to the drawbacks of error calls ? |
| 17:09 | the-kenny | Yes, that's the return data of couchdb |
| 17:10 | Carkh | *error codes |
| 17:10 | the-kenny | Carkh: Exceptions aren't very "functional". |
| 17:11 | Carkh | well if you have a pure function, and it raises an exception, you may expect it to always do so |
| 17:11 | Carkh | what's not functional in that ? |
| 17:12 | Carkh | i woudn't want to use a library that returns error codes, that means i need to check these at each nested function, or raise an exception myself |
| 17:12 | Carkh | or use monads =/ |
| 17:13 | the-kenny | Exceptions are way more verbose than error-codes. You can just ignore errors, but you can't ignore exceptions |
| 17:13 | _ato | I tend to be doing a number of different things: |
| 17:13 | _ato | 1. getting a single document |
| 17:13 | _ato | 2. getting a list of documents |
| 17:13 | Carkh | just ignore errors ? yuk ! |
| 17:13 | _ato | 3. doing updates |
| 17:14 | _ato | when getting a single document I don't usually care about the row count, so nil is fine |
| 17:14 | _ato | when getting a list of documents, I can return a list (could be empty list). This could have the row count on it as metadata |
| 17:15 | _ato | when updating I probably want exceptions as not-found doesn't make sense there. For conflicts I probably want two different update functions, one which automatically retries with a pure function (think swap! and atoms) and another that lets me decide what to do with the conflict (eg ask the user or whatever) |
| 17:15 | Carkh | anyways if you want to ignore errors nothing prevents you from makeing a function or macro ignore-errors |
| 17:16 | the-kenny | Carkh: Nothing prevents me from modifying my fork of clojure-couchdb either ;) |
| 17:17 | Carkh | (defn ignore-errors [func & params] (try (apply func params) (catch Exception e nil))) |
| 17:17 | Carkh | heh sure, you're king with your code, i'm just saying =) |
| 17:18 | the-kenny | hm.. I've never thought about metadata for clojure-couchdb |
| 17:19 | the-kenny | the erlang-way would be something like {error, data} and doing pattern-matching on it. |
| 17:19 | ssideris | guys, say I have a bunch of functions as a list and a list. I want to apply each function to the corresponding element of the list (based on position). Any ideas? |
| 17:20 | the-kenny | ssideris: Something like (map #(%1 %2) function-list data-list)? |
| 17:20 | _ato | ,(map inc [1 2 3]) |
| 17:20 | clojurebot | (2 3 4) |
| 17:20 | _ato | oh |
| 17:20 | _ato | bunch of functions |
| 17:21 | the-kenny | ,(map #(%1 %2) [inc dec inc dec] [1 2 1 2])? |
| 17:21 | clojurebot | (2 1 2 1) |
| 17:21 | ssideris | the-kenny: yeah, i think that would do |
| 17:21 | ssideris | thanks |
| 17:21 | the-kenny | You're welcome |
| 17:21 | ssideris | ultimately i'd like to see if they all returned true |
| 17:21 | ssideris | but i think constructing the list of results is the first step |
| 17:22 | the-kenny | ssideris: (every? true? list) |
| 17:22 | ssideris | so elegant! |
| 17:22 | ssideris | :-) |
| 17:23 | the-kenny | Lisp is very elegant :) |
| 17:23 | the-kenny | s/Lisp is/Lisps are/ |
| 17:24 | gbt | well they're very elegant when you know what you're doing, which I don't, but thats why I hang out here :) |
| 17:24 | ssideris | i'm new to lisp in general, I had tried learning Common Lisp in the past but Clojure really motivates me because I already know the java standard lib |
| 17:28 | triyo | ,(into-array ["/xxx" "/yyy"]) |
| 17:28 | clojurebot | #<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@3242c8> |
| 17:28 | triyo | hhm, I get java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.springframework.util.Assert.noNullElements([Ljava/lang/Object;Ljava/lang/String;) |
| 17:29 | triyo | I thought is said String array of String elements |
| 17:30 | triyo | am I misusing into-array? All I do is pass the (into-array ["/xxx" "/yyy"]) onto the java class through interop |
| 17:31 | triyo | the method of the class expects a String array |
| 17:31 | nickpad | wondering if someone can help me out with some java interop stuff - trying to call a java constructor method Foo(int labels[]) |
| 17:32 | the-kenny | triyo: Maybe you want to add the type to the array? |
| 17:32 | triyo | hehe, nickpad: I'm asking a similar question :) |
| 17:32 | the-kenny | Oh wait |
| 17:33 | triyo | ,(into-array ["/xxx" "/yyy"]) |
| 17:33 | clojurebot | #<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@b8229c> |
| 17:33 | nickpad | i've tried (new Foo (int-array [1 2 3]) but that gives me an illegal argument exception |
| 17:33 | tomoj | triyo: hmm |
| 17:33 | tomoj | google that exception |
| 17:33 | the-kenny | nickpad: You forgot the int |
| 17:33 | the-kenny | oh stop |
| 17:34 | the-kenny | I read the constructor wrong.. |
| 17:36 | triyo | tomoj: hmm googled, that sounds dodgy. |
| 17:36 | tomoj | do you have multiple versions? |
| 17:36 | tomoj | I don't understand the error, I know that "[Ljava/lang/Object;" means an array of Objects, but what's "[Ljava/lang/Object;Ljava/lang/String;" mean? |
| 17:36 | triyo | I used leiningen to download the depenedencies |
| 17:37 | triyo | I'l have a look at the lib/ dir quick |
| 17:38 | triyo | It means an Object array of Strings |
| 17:38 | triyo | new spring ver has rather a String array of Strings of course |
| 17:39 | triyo | yup I think I see a lib culprit |
| 19:03 | ssideris | hello, I've written this very basic set of functions for matching s-expressions: http://pastebin.ca/1712672 |
| 19:03 | ssideris | and i was wondering whether there is anyway to write something like: (def matcher (m=+ 1 matcher)) |
| 19:04 | ssideris | of course that woudl not work as it is since when def-ing matcher, the symbol matcher is not bound yet |
| 19:04 | the-kenny | ssideris: Maybe if you do a "(declare launcher)" above this def? |
| 19:05 | ssideris | hm, no i still get the same error |
| 19:06 | the-kenny | um sorry, I meant (declare matcher) |
| 19:06 | ssideris | yeah, i got that :-) |
| 19:06 | ssideris | but it didn't work |
| 19:08 | ssideris | also i think that maybe i dont really want to refer to matcher |
| 19:09 | ssideris | but to the function that m=+ produces |
| 19:09 | ssideris | which is anonymous anyway! |
| 19:12 | tomoj | ssideris: I'm confused |
| 19:12 | _ato | maybe: (def matcher (m=+ 1 (fn [& args] (apply matcher args)))) |
| 19:13 | ssideris | tomoj: about the purpose of the code, or my last question? |
| 19:13 | tomoj | the purpose |
| 19:13 | tomoj | _ato's rendering clears it up a bit |
| 19:13 | tomoj | your (def matcher ..) above confused me, a circular definition |
| 19:14 | ssideris | the idea is to try and produce a recursive matcher |
| 19:14 | ssideris | so if (m=+ 1 2) returns true when passed (1 2) |
| 19:14 | ssideris | (def matcher (m+= 1 matcher)) |
| 19:15 | ssideris | would match (1 1) and (1 1 1 1) etc |
| 19:15 | _ato | hrmm |
| 19:16 | _ato | I thought it would match (1 (1 (1 (1 ... |
| 19:16 | _ato | but maybe I'm misunderstanding |
| 19:17 | ssideris | erm, possibly, I'm basically borrowing ideas from parser combinators |
| 19:17 | tomoj | so, I guess you want a fixed point of (partial m+= 1) ? |
| 19:18 | ssideris | tomoj: give a second to read up on partial |
| 19:21 | mudphone | Hiya folks, anyone know where I can find swank-clojure.jar files for download? |
| 19:22 | ssideris | maybe what i'm asking for is slightly misguided: the main purpose of being able to define matchers recursively would be to able to say "match this multiple times" |
| 19:23 | ssideris | but maybe it's better to leave that out and create a few other functions tha implement "match at least once", "optional match multiple times", "match exactly X times" etc |
| 19:23 | tomoj | Z combinator works |
| 19:23 | tomoj | but this is probably not the best approach :D |
| 19:23 | _ato | mudphone: http://clojars.org/repo/swank-clojure/swank-clojure/1.1.0-SNAPSHOT/ |
| 19:23 | tomoj | er, Y combinator, but applicative order of course |
| 19:24 | mudphone | _ato: gracias! |
| 19:24 | mudphone | should have remembered to check clojars |
| 19:25 | ssideris | yeah my understanding is that Y combinator is a mythical creature that allows you to do recursion on anonymous functions |
| 19:25 | ssideris | but that's all :-( |
| 19:25 | ssideris | sorry, functional newbie as well as clojure newbie |
| 19:25 | _ato | I should add a download link the clojars jar pages so that it's more obvious how to just get the jars without using Leiningen/Maven/Ivy etc |
| 19:26 | tomoj | hmm |
| 19:26 | tomoj | actually it doesn't seem to work |
| 19:26 | ssideris | oh ok |
| 19:27 | ssideris | what do you think about the approach i described above? |
| 19:27 | mudphone | _ato: swank-clojure is step one for me... then it's on to lein + swank clojure project |
| 19:28 | mudphone | hope that's the right order |
| 19:29 | tomoj | ssideris: sounds reasonable |
| 19:29 | tomoj | but I'm now going to go figure out how to make the Y combinator work for this :) |
| 19:30 | ssideris | well let me know if you do! |
| 19:31 | tomoj | I think the issue is that this matcher takes arbitrarily many arguments |
| 19:32 | tomoj | that's one thing that puzzles me about your code so far |
| 19:32 | tomoj | why (m8 1 1 1 1) instead of (m8 '(1 1 1 1)) ? |
| 19:33 | ssideris | dunno, less parenthesis |
| 19:33 | ssideris | no good reason really |
| 19:33 | ssideris | do you think it would result to cleaner code if I pass one argument? |
| 19:33 | tomoj | I think it would make my Y combinator trick easier :) |
| 19:33 | tomoj | but, didn't you say the goal is pattern matching on sexps? |
| 19:34 | tomoj | so the argument to a matcher would presumably be a sexp? |
| 19:34 | ssideris | indeed... |
| 19:34 | ssideris | ok let me change it |
| 19:35 | ssideris | erm just a sec |
| 19:35 | tomoj | I don't really know anything about pattern matching, so don't listen to me |
| 19:35 | ssideris | me neither, this my educational project |
| 19:36 | ssideris | if I change m=+ to accept a single param, then don't i lose the ability to say: |
| 19:36 | ssideris | (m=+ 1 2 (m_) 4 5) |
| 19:36 | ssideris | m_ being the "any" matcher |
| 19:36 | tomoj | well I wouldn't think m=+ should accept a single param |
| 19:36 | tomoj | rather the return value of m=+ |
| 19:37 | tomoj | so that ((m=+ 1 2 (m_) 4 5) [1 2 3 4 5]) is true for example |
| 19:37 | tomoj | but again, I dunno what I'm talking about. I think making that change actually also removes the need for the Y combinator trick :( |
| 19:38 | ssideris | ok say I write m=+ differently so that it accepts a list |
| 19:39 | ssideris | I would then have to define amatcher as: (m=+ '(1 2 (m_) 4 5)) |
| 19:39 | ssideris | but the ' would prevent the evaluation of (m_) |
| 19:39 | ssideris | so that expression would only produce a half-baked matcher |
| 19:39 | tomoj | well, again, I think m=+ is fine taking however many arguments |
| 19:40 | tomoj | that makes sense to me |
| 19:40 | ssideris | ok, sorry I thought you said otherwise |
| 19:40 | tomoj | but I would think that the return value of m=+ should be a function of one argument |
| 19:41 | ssideris | ah ok, so that would make a difference in the invocation of the matcher, not the definition |
| 19:41 | tomoj | right |
| 19:41 | ssideris | so for (def m7 (m=+ 1 2 (m-regex #"(ha)+") 4 5)) |
| 19:41 | ssideris | you do: (m7 '(1 2 "iopj" 4 5)) |
| 19:41 | ssideris | ok makes sense |
| 19:42 | tomoj | I dunno if that's actually better or not |
| 19:42 | tomoj | isn't that how parser combinator libraries usually work? |
| 19:42 | ssideris | the things i've read are for parsing strings |
| 19:42 | tomoj | I mean, the parsers accept lists of tokens rather than arbitrarily many arguments |
| 19:42 | tomoj | oh, hm |
| 19:43 | tomoj | have you seen fnparse yet? |
| 19:43 | ssideris | nope |
| 19:43 | tomoj | maybe you might get some ideas from it http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse |
| 19:43 | tomoj | I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it |
| 19:43 | ssideris | thanks! |
| 19:44 | ssideris | the paper url is broken |
| 19:44 | ssideris | i mean the academic paper he's linking to |
| 19:44 | tomoj | extra parenthesis |
| 19:45 | tomoj | got href'd wrong |
| 19:45 | tomoj | http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.49.8088 |
| 19:45 | ssideris | oh it *is* about parser combinators |
| 19:46 | ssideris | cool |
| 19:47 | tomoj | the code you pasted is the initial steps toward a parser combinator library, right? |
| 19:47 | tomoj | I don't even know the difference between this and pattern matching |
| 19:47 | tomoj | with pattern matching do you end up with a map of bindings? |
| 19:48 | ssideris | yes, i suppose it is, although i was intending to leave it to the level of s-expr, didn't want to use it for strings |
| 19:49 | ssideris | i think in pattern matching (as per haskell) you provide some values to fill the gaps |
| 19:50 | ssideris | so the pattern is filled by the data provided |
| 19:50 | tomoj | I think I remember seeing something about pattern matching in clojure somewhere |
| 19:53 | _ato | ssideris: http://gist.github.com/255178 :-P |
| 19:54 | tomoj | atoms? :( |
| 19:56 | _ato | tomoj: if you can do it without atoms/vars/refs and without changing the structure of the m=+ function, I'll be very impressed |
| 19:57 | _ato | you need a level of indirection somewhere so you can bind the value of "this" after you close over it |
| 19:58 | tomoj | I was imagining m8 as curried |
| 19:58 | tomoj | but if that is the case, its return value has to be a function |
| 19:58 | tomoj | which is truthy :/ |
| 19:59 | tomoj | which would bring me to fnparse's monads |
| 20:02 | tomoj | we can do (apply m=+ (repeat 1)) but that's cheating I guess? |
| 20:02 | tomoj | pretty awesome that we can apply a function to an infinite sequence... |
| 20:02 | tomoj | I'm surprised that works |
| 20:03 | _ato | ah, yeah that's a nicer way of expressing it. I should have thought of that |
| 20:05 | tomoj | I hadn't realized [& args] would accept a lazy seq |
| 20:08 | tomoj | ,(take 10 (apply (fn [a b & args] (concat [a b] args)) (concat [1 2] (repeat 1)))) |
| 20:08 | clojurebot | (1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1) |
| 20:08 | tomoj | so we have functions which not only can take an arbitrary number of arguments, but which can in fact take an infinite number of arguments.. cool! |
| 20:16 | ssideris | wow |
| 20:16 | ssideris | so that solves it doesn't it? |
| 20:18 | tomoj | I don't really like that solution :/ |
| 20:19 | tomoj | well, maybe if you wrap it in m* or something |
| 20:21 | tomoj | m+ perhaps |
| 20:21 | tomoj | it doesn't work like I'd expect |
| 20:22 | tomoj | if we do (defn m+ [x] (apply m=+ (repeat x))) |
| 20:22 | tomoj | ((m+ 1) 1 1 1 1) works, but (m=+ 3 (m+ 1) 4) doesn't |
| 20:22 | tomoj | it matches 3 1 4 but not 3 1 1 4 |
| 20:23 | tomoj | actually, I think this is just because m=+ can't be composed |
| 20:24 | tomoj | I would expect (m=+ 3 (m=+ 1 2 3) 4) to match 3 1 2 3 4, is it supposed to? |
| 20:24 | ssideris | yes it is |
| 20:24 | Intertricity | does clojure have anythign like python slices? |
| 20:24 | ssideris | does it not? |
| 20:24 | Intertricity | *anything |
| 20:24 | tomoj | no, it doesn't |
| 20:24 | Intertricity | like "blah12342314"[:3] |
| 20:24 | tomoj | oops, talking to ssideris, not you, Intertricity |
| 20:24 | Intertricity | tomoj, ah ok :) |
| 20:24 | tomoj | Intertricity: but, no, there is no special syntax for that |
| 20:25 | tomoj | ,(take 3 "blah") |
| 20:25 | clojurebot | (\b \l \a) |
| 20:25 | Intertricity | oooh that's just as good |
| 20:25 | Intertricity | ,(str "hello") |
| 20:25 | clojurebot | "hello" |
| 20:25 | tomoj | ,(take 3 (drop 2 "blaarghhglll")) |
| 20:25 | clojurebot | (\a \a \r) |
| 20:25 | Intertricity | :o |
| 20:26 | tomoj | also there's subs for strings |
| 20:26 | Intertricity | ok that's the coolest bot I've seen so far xD |
| 20:26 | tomoj | ,(subs "blaarghhll" 3 6) |
| 20:26 | clojurebot | "arg" |
| 20:26 | Intertricity | ,(subs "blaaarghdfafad" 0 3) |
| 20:26 | clojurebot | "bla" |
| 20:26 | Intertricity | that would work perfectly |
| 20:27 | Intertricity | what about turning string characters into a list I can iterate through? |
| 20:27 | ssideris | tomoj: i've changed the code slightly: http://pastebin.ca/1712745 |
| 20:27 | tomoj | Intertricity: just iterate through them |
| 20:27 | Intertricity | tomoj, ahh ok, thanks :D |
| 20:27 | _ato | ,(map identity "blargh") |
| 20:27 | clojurebot | (\b \l \a \r \g \h) |
| 20:27 | _ato | ,(apply str (map identity "blargh")) |
| 20:27 | jasapp | ,(seq "asdf") |
| 20:27 | tomoj | strings are seqable, so pretty much anything that expects a sequence will accept a string |
| 20:27 | clojurebot | "blargh" |
| 20:27 | clojurebot | (\a \s \d \f) |
| 20:28 | ssideris | just to have the matcher from m=+ accept a single param |
| 20:28 | tomoj | I think that might fix the problem I just saw |
| 20:28 | _ato | ,(apply str (take-while #(.isLetter %) "hello7bar")) |
| 20:28 | clojurebot | java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: isLetter for class java.lang.Character |
| 20:29 | Intertricity | tomoj, do you know if ikvm's .net support is any good? |
| 20:29 | _ato | ,(apply str (take-while#(Character/isLetter %) "hello7bar")) |
| 20:29 | clojurebot | java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: take-while# in this context |
| 20:29 | _ato | ,(apply str (take-while #(Character/isLetter %) "hello7bar")) |
| 20:29 | clojurebot | "hello" |
| 20:29 | Intertricity | I have a project I want to use clojure to learn with, but it requires a .net library :\ |
| 20:29 | tomoj | Intertricity: dunno what ikvm is, and dunno anything about .net, sorry |
| 20:29 | tomoj | I think there is a version of clojure running on the CLR, though? |
| 20:30 | aluink | i'm trying to compile a simple app in a subfolder app/hello.clj i'm doing (compile 'app.hello) from the Repl, but continually get classpath errors. anyone got a minute or two to give me a hand? |
| 20:30 | tomoj | lots of clojure libraries probably don't work with it, though, but you can write your own stuff |
| 20:30 | _ato | http://wiki.github.com/richhickey/clojure-clr |
| 20:31 | Intertricity | tomoj, http://www.ikvm.net/ |
| 20:31 | aluink | i'm doing what i'm told to do on this page, http://clojure.org/compilation |
| 20:31 | hiredman | compile? |
| 20:31 | clojurebot | the unit of compilation in clojure is the namespace. namespaces are compiled (not files). to compile a namspace the namespace needs to be on the classpath and so does ./classes/ (and the directory needs to exist) because clojure writes the class files to that directory. http://clojure.org/compilation |
| 20:32 | aluink | i've exported CLASSPATH=./classes:./ |
| 20:32 | _ato | aluink: also make sure you have (ns app.hello) at the top of app/hello.clj |
| 20:32 | aluink | and yes, classes does exist |
| 20:33 | hiredman | lisppaste8: url? |
| 20:33 | lisppaste8 | To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste. |
| 20:33 | hiredman | pastebin somesomething (errors, code, shell commands, etc) |
| 20:34 | tomoj | ssideris: hmm, I'm seeing new problems |
| 20:34 | lisppaste8 | aluink pasted "hello" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92007 |
| 20:35 | ssideris | tomoj: i'm all ears (or eyes?) |
| 20:35 | aluink | _ato: see the paste |
| 20:35 | tomoj | ssideris: try this ((m=+ 3 (m=+ 1 2 3) 4) '(3 1 2 3 4)) |
| 20:36 | tomoj | oh, wait, ((m=+ 3 (m=+ 1 2 3) 4) '(3 (1 2 3) 4)) works |
| 20:36 | tomoj | which one is supposed to work? |
| 20:36 | ssideris | against what? |
| 20:36 | ssideris | sorry... |
| 20:36 | ssideris | you have the parameter right there |
| 20:37 | _ato | aluink: java -cp clojure.jar:.:classes -Dclojure.compile.path=classes clojure.lang.Compile app.hello |
| 20:37 | Intertricity | has anyone here played with ClojureCLR? |
| 20:37 | hiredman | :| |
| 20:38 | hiredman | ssideris: what is the exception, how/when do you see the exception and how are you starting clojure? |
| 20:38 | _ato | aluink: otherwise please paste the command you're using and the error |
| 20:38 | ssideris | tomoj: well, the first should return false rather than throwing an exception |
| 20:39 | ssideris | hiredman: you mean aluink? |
| 20:39 | hiredman | ssideris: I must |
| 20:39 | hiredman | <-- full of nyquil |
| 20:39 | tomoj | ssideris: ah, yes |
| 20:40 | ssideris | tomoj: it's probably because m=+ assumes the correct amount of tokens |
| 20:40 | tomoj | well.. |
| 20:40 | tomoj | actually |
| 20:40 | tomoj | try this |
| 20:40 | tomoj | ((m=+ 1 2) '(1)) |
| 20:40 | tomoj | :D |
| 20:40 | tomoj | it assumes it's being given something seqable, anyway |
| 20:40 | aluink | _ato: ok, that worked, but this is what i was doing... |
| 20:40 | lisppaste8 | aluink pasted "process" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92008 |
| 20:41 | ssideris | tomoj: so the use of map is what creates the problems |
| 20:41 | tomoj | yep, it cuts off at the sorter seq |
| 20:41 | hiredman | aluink: -cp and CLASSPATH are mutually exclusive |
| 20:41 | aluink | _ato: i wonder if it was picking up my export and/or was it that -D that did the trick |
| 20:41 | hiredman | if you use -cp then CLASSPATH is ignored |
| 20:42 | tomoj | so similarly ((m=+ 1 2) '(1 2 3)) is true |
| 20:42 | aluink | hiredman: ahhh!!! |
| 20:42 | hiredman | yeah |
| 20:42 | ssideris | tomoj: so I should return false if it's not seqable and if the sequences are of different lenghts |
| 20:42 | aluink | i didn't know that, where is that documented? |
| 20:42 | aluink | man java1 |
| 20:42 | aluink | ! |
| 20:42 | tomoj | ssideris: that sounds like it would fix it, yeah |
| 20:43 | _ato | "Specifying -classpath or -cp overrides any setting of |
| 20:43 | _ato | the CLASSPATH environment variable." -- man java |
| 20:43 | tomoj | though you'll be going through the sequence twice and holding the head :/ |
| 20:43 | aluink | to do what i was doing, i should have done -cp clojure.jar:$CLASSPATH |
| 20:44 | aluink | that's kinda've annoying, oh well...thanks for pointing that out! |
| 20:45 | hiredman | clojurebot: -cp and CLASSPATH |are| mutually exclusive |
| 20:45 | clojurebot | You don't have to tell me twice. |
| 20:45 | hiredman | now it's documented there |
| 20:48 | aluink | how is that info retrieved? |
| 20:48 | aluink | better yet, where can i find docs on working with clojurebot? |
| 20:49 | ssideris | MEIN FUEHRER, IT WORKS! |
| 20:50 | hiredman | clojurebot: -cp and CLASSPATH? |
| 20:50 | clojurebot | classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path") |
| 20:50 | hiredman | hmmm |
| 20:50 | _ato | hehe |
| 20:50 | hiredman | clojurebot: -cp and CLASSPATH |
| 20:50 | clojurebot | -cp and CLASSPATH are mutually exclusive |
| 20:50 | ssideris | tomoj: http://pastebin.ca/1712761 |
| 20:50 | aluink | you kinda have to know to ask that question though right? |
| 20:50 | hiredman | clojurebot: -cp? |
| 20:50 | clojurebot | Excuse me? |
| 20:50 | _ato | clojurebot: -cp |
| 20:50 | clojurebot | Pardon? |
| 20:51 | _ato | heh |
| 20:51 | hiredman | clojurebot: exclusive? |
| 20:51 | clojurebot | Gabh mo leithscéal? |
| 20:53 | tomoj | ssideris: you'll want to replace seq? with sequential? I think |
| 20:54 | tomoj | vectors aren't seqs so ((m=+ 3 4) [3 4]) doesn't work with seq? |
| 20:54 | ssideris | oh ok |
| 20:54 | ssideris | why is that? |
| 20:55 | tomoj | lists are their own seqs |
| 20:55 | hiredman | clojurebot: -cp and classpath? |
| 20:55 | clojurebot | -cp and CLASSPATH are mutually exclusive |
| 20:55 | tomoj | ,(let [lst '(1 2 3)] (identical? lst (seq lst))) |
| 20:55 | clojurebot | true |
| 20:55 | tomoj | ,(let [v [1 2 3]] (identical? v (seq v))) |
| 20:55 | clojurebot | false |
| 20:55 | tomoj | vectors aren't |
| 20:56 | tomoj | nor hashmaps, strings, etc |
| 20:56 | hiredman | win 11 |
| 20:57 | _ato | ,(sequential? "foo") |
| 20:57 | clojurebot | false |
| 20:57 | tomoj | hmm |
| 20:57 | tomoj | yeah I just noticed that too |
| 20:57 | tomoj | I remember asking this question before, but don't remember the answer -- how do we test for seqability? |
| 20:59 | chouser | there is a 'seqable?' on contrib, but it's rarely the right thing to use. |
| 21:00 | tomoj | is "will this thing work with the seq library" not the right question to ask? |
| 21:01 | chouser | righ |
| 21:01 | chouser | right |
| 21:01 | tomoj | oh, yes, I see you are right in this case |
| 21:01 | tomoj | if we did a test for seqability, we couldn't use strings as literals in the patterns |
| 21:01 | chouser | because of my complex and persuasive argument. |
| 21:01 | chouser | :-) |
| 21:02 | chouser | *most* of the time if the code is going to choose between two valid actions, you want something more specific than seqability |
| 21:02 | tomoj | as it is we can't use lists, and with sequential? can't use vectors |
| 21:03 | chouser | perhaps 'coll?' |
| 21:03 | tomoj | what all implements Sequential? lists, vectors, ... |
| 21:03 | tomoj | huh, NOT seqs |
| 21:03 | hiredman | not strings |
| 21:04 | tomoj | well, I dunno what the right test is, then |
| 21:04 | ssideris | this is so confusing... we need a comparison table |
| 21:04 | tomoj | ,(sequential? (seq [])) |
| 21:04 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:04 | tomoj | but |
| 21:05 | tomoj | ,(sequential? (iterate inc 1)) |
| 21:05 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:05 | tomoj | :( |
| 21:05 | tomoj | I cast you out, sequential? |
| 21:05 | _ato | ,(seq? (seq [])) |
| 21:05 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:05 | tomoj | wat |
| 21:05 | _ato | ;-) |
| 21:05 | _ato | ,(seq []) |
| 21:05 | clojurebot | nil |
| 21:05 | tomoj | ooh |
| 21:06 | tomoj | ok, I welcome you back in, sequential? |
| 21:06 | tomoj | so seqs are sequential, that's good :) |
| 21:06 | qed | maybe this is a dumb question, but....how are colls different from seqs? |
| 21:06 | BrandonW | hello, i've got a quick question about functional programming, if that's okay :) |
| 21:07 | ssideris | seqs are lazy lists, right? |
| 21:07 | tomoj | ,(coll? (seq [1])) |
| 21:07 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:07 | tomoj | wait, what? I thought that would be false |
| 21:07 | qed | lol |
| 21:07 | tomoj | PersistentVector$ChunkedSeqs are colls I guess |
| 21:08 | tomoj | ok, but {} is a coll and {} is not a seq |
| 21:08 | tomoj | (and similarly [] is a coll but not a seq) |
| 21:08 | qed | #{} seems like it wouldnt be a coll |
| 21:08 | _ato | public interface IPersistentCollection extends Seqable |
| 21:08 | qed | but i guess ordering really has nothing to do with it? |
| 21:08 | BrandonW | if you want to make a library along the lines of a pdf editor, how would you write a functional library for editing PDFs, if each operation would return an entirely new pdf as per functional programming idioms. Wouldn't that be a lot of memory overhead? I barely know anything about functional programming, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the concepts :) |
| 21:08 | BrandonW | brb |
| 21:09 | _ato | colls needs to implement count, cons, empty, equiv and be seqable |
| 21:09 | tomoj | presumably you wouldn't write out the entire pdf to disk every time a change is made |
| 21:09 | tomoj | if you have some in memory representation of a pdf in terms of persistent data structures, the new pdfs aren't really "entirely" new |
| 21:09 | qed | _ato: they need to implement all of those? |
| 21:09 | tomoj | they can share structure |
| 21:09 | _ato | all seqs are colls |
| 21:10 | _ato | and all colls are seqable |
| 21:10 | qed | but not all colls are seqs |
| 21:10 | _ato | right |
| 21:10 | qed | ok |
| 21:11 | tomoj | where's the clojure ring benchmark? |
| 21:12 | chouser | ~classes |
| 21:12 | clojurebot | Gabh mo leithscéal? |
| 21:12 | tomoj | I found one in swannodette/clojure-benchmarks but I'm looking for rhickey's |
| 21:14 | chouser | This may help understand relationships between collection types: http://tinyurl.com/clojure-classes |
| 21:14 | chouser | except ... it's a bit out of date and potentially a bit overwhelming. |
| 21:14 | tomoj | I think a table would be nice |
| 21:14 | tomoj | but I want to generate it programmatically |
| 21:15 | tomoj | s/svg/html/ and it's easy :) |
| 21:15 | chouser | right -- the code is there -- go for it. |
| 21:19 | qed | ah, clojure documentation... such fun |
| 21:19 | tomoj | qed: are you the one working on that doc wiki project? |
| 21:20 | qed | yeah, well, attempting to, i suck at clojure still, and compojure isn't easy for me, but it's slowly coming along |
| 21:20 | ssideris | so strings are not sequential? |
| 21:20 | qed | im trying to get a basic structure for the site down |
| 21:21 | ssideris | ,(sequential? "hello") |
| 21:21 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:21 | tomoj | qed: well, good luck, I'm excited :) |
| 21:21 | tomoj | ssideris: I think this is a good thing for your matchers |
| 21:21 | qed | tomoj: hey man, ill need some help if you're up to it! :) |
| 21:22 | tomoj | if strings were sequential, ((m=+ \a \b) "ab") would work, but ((m=+ 1 "foo" 2) '(1 "foo" 2)) wouldn't |
| 21:22 | tomoj | qed: is it in git somewhere yet? |
| 21:22 | qed | you can clone the repo and just start making markdown files with the name of the forms, follow the template and badda bing badda boom |
| 21:22 | qed | ya one sec |
| 21:22 | qed | http://github.com/defn/cljex |
| 21:23 | tomoj | awesome, you bought that domain name as well? |
| 21:23 | qed | i was thinking it might be a better idea to get the docstrings automatically and put them into the files so we dont need to update that part later |
| 21:23 | qed | yeah getclojure.org/com |
| 21:25 | ssideris | here's a table: http://www.stathis.co.uk/private/seqs.svg |
| 21:26 | ssideris | have i missed anything? |
| 21:26 | ssideris | firefox just shows me the source of the svg! |
| 21:27 | ssideris | silly firefox |
| 21:27 | the-kenny | OmniWeb does it too. |
| 21:27 | _ato | your webserver is serving it as text/plain |
| 21:27 | BrandonW | tomoj: that sounds what I was thinking. I had read something about if you program functionally, everything can be passed by reference because the referenced objects will never be changed, and if you do need to change it, there is a cheap way to clone it with a minor modification |
| 21:28 | BrandonW | so each successive change of the pdf would not create an entirely new pdf in memory, but rather take the original pdf and append whatever changes are needed, right? |
| 21:28 | tomoj | something like that, yeah |
| 21:28 | ssideris | http://www.stathis.co.uk/private/seqs.png |
| 21:28 | tomoj | if you change it, you get a new object, but it has references inside it to parts of the old object |
| 21:28 | tomoj | and since none of these objects can ever change, this is not a problem |
| 21:29 | _ato | http://meshy.org/~ato/tmp/seqs.svg |
| 21:29 | tomoj | why doesn't apache know how to serve svg by default? :/ |
| 21:29 | _ato | ssideris: you missed {} |
| 21:30 | tomoj | there are other things I'd like to see on a table as well |
| 21:30 | tomoj | counted? for instance |
| 21:31 | hiredman | ,(coll? (seq [1 2])) |
| 21:31 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:31 | hiredman | your table is missling a dot |
| 21:31 | BrandonW | okay thanks for the information :) |
| 21:32 | BrandonW | i'm trying to decide between clojure vs scala in the next language i want to learn |
| 21:32 | tomoj | that sounds like an interesting project, BrandonW |
| 21:32 | tomoj | the pdf stuff I mean |
| 21:32 | _ato | ,(counted? '(1 2)) |
| 21:32 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:32 | ssideris | tomoj: thanks |
| 21:32 | BrandonW | oh it was mostly a hypothetical question at this point |
| 21:32 | _ato | ,(counted? (cons 1 (cons 2 ())) |
| 21:32 | clojurebot | EOF while reading |
| 21:32 | tomoj | the choice between clojure vs scala is trivial, so uninteresting :P |
| 21:32 | _ato | ,(counted? (cons 1 (cons 2 ()))) |
| 21:32 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:32 | BrandonW | java has pretty good pdf tools already that i'm sure could be used from clojure |
| 21:32 | _ato | difference between lists and cons cells |
| 21:32 | tomoj | yeah, but I bet they suck |
| 21:32 | hiredman | clojurebot: scala {((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)} |
| 21:32 | clojurebot | Any = 1 |
| 21:33 | tomoj | what sounds interesting to me is coming up with a persistent representation of pdf documents |
| 21:33 | BrandonW | it was more a question on the inner workings of functional language not slowing you down when you have a large-ish object whose state would be changing a lot (in an oop paradigm, anyways) |
| 21:33 | BrandonW | from what i've heard/used of it, it works pretty well |
| 21:33 | tomoj | yeah |
| 21:33 | BrandonW | but of course, it isn't idiomatic clojure, so it could be improved :) |
| 21:33 | tomoj | there is some slowdown, but it's not bad |
| 21:33 | ssideris | tomoj: ok, counted?... what else? |
| 21:34 | ssideris | _ato: what does {} do? |
| 21:35 | tomoj | dammit, why did I think it was a good idea to ditch the emacs-starter-kit. now swank-clojure-project doesn't even work, and lein-swank is apparently broken atm |
| 21:35 | hiredman | #scala.log:2009:Dec:03:16:41:22 dibblego : dcsobral, FWIW, I've given up on expecting a usable Scala core library, to save disappointment |
| 21:35 | _ato | ssideris: {} is an empty map |
| 21:35 | _ato | I guess there's also reversible? |
| 21:36 | _ato | and associative? |
| 21:37 | _ato | oh and ifn? of course |
| 21:37 | _ato | ,(ifn? []) |
| 21:37 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:37 | ssideris | i thought all maps started with # |
| 21:37 | _ato | ,(ifn? ()) |
| 21:37 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:37 | ssideris | #{} |
| 21:37 | _ato | that's a set, not a map |
| 21:37 | ssideris | oh eys |
| 21:37 | _ato | ,{:foo 1, :bar 2} |
| 21:37 | clojurebot | {:foo 1, :bar 2} |
| 21:37 | ssideris | *yes |
| 21:37 | _ato | ,#{:foo :bar} |
| 21:37 | clojurebot | #{:foo :bar} |
| 21:38 | _ato | oh and there's also: sorted? |
| 21:38 | _ato | ,(sorted? #{}) |
| 21:38 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:38 | _ato | ,(sorted? (sorted-set)) |
| 21:38 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:38 | tomoj | damn |
| 21:39 | tomoj | I was just about to say that the only other one that seemed relevant was sorted? (just grepped the ns-publics in clojure.core for "?" :D) |
| 21:39 | tomoj | I mean we have chunked-seq? and vector? and some others, but they don't seem that valuable |
| 21:39 | ssideris | i'm starting to think that doing this in svg is not such a good idea |
| 21:40 | tomoj | I am trying to start a project to do it in html, but can't get a repl up for some reason |
| 21:41 | ssideris | it would be nice to have another column with a brief explanation of what each test means? |
| 21:43 | tomoj | oh, seems we need swank-clojure.jar in lib/ now for swank-clojure project |
| 21:43 | tomoj | :/ |
| 21:45 | j3ff86 | what does -> do? |
| 21:47 | j3ff86 | nevermind |
| 21:49 | ssideris | which collection implements Sorted? |
| 21:50 | j3ff86 | different from sort? |
| 21:51 | tomoj | well, there are sorted sets and sorted maps |
| 21:51 | tomoj | perhaps others |
| 21:52 | _ato | ,(sorted? (sorted-set)) |
| 21:52 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:52 | _ato | ,(sorted? (sorted-map)) |
| 21:52 | clojurebot | true |
| 21:52 | _ato | ,(sorted? (array-map)) |
| 21:52 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:52 | _ato | ,(sorted? (hash-map)) |
| 21:52 | clojurebot | false |
| 21:52 | _ato | ,(type {}) |
| 21:52 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap |
| 21:53 | ssideris | tomoj: where you going to automate the html table? |
| 21:53 | ssideris | i mean generating it |
| 21:54 | tomoj | yup |
| 21:56 | ssideris | anyway, here's the updated hand-made version: http://www.stathis.co.uk/private/seqs.png |
| 21:57 | ssideris | http://www.stathis.co.uk/private/seqs.svg |
| 21:59 | tomoj | thank you for making me learn how to use conkerors "view internally as mime type" feature :) |
| 22:10 | ssideris | hahahaha |
| 22:11 | ssideris | tomoj: what would you use for generating html? |
| 22:13 | tomoj | well, I haven't done much of it, but I think I like enlive |
| 22:13 | quizme | hi |
| 22:13 | tomoj | though that might not really count as "generating html" |
| 22:13 | tomoj | instead you have your html out in html files (where it belongs :P) and you apply transformations to it to add in the dynamic stuff |
| 22:13 | quizme | is it better to write in a functional (stateless) way or object-oriented way in clojure ? |
| 22:14 | tomoj | certainly the former...? |
| 22:15 | ssideris | tomoj: the clojure API documentation is not very clear on the data structure test functions |
| 22:15 | quizme | why is that ? |
| 22:16 | tomoj | well, it's not easy to write in an object-oriented way in clojure |
| 22:16 | ssideris | tomoj: "this tests if the collection implements interface X" doesn't mean much to most people |
| 22:16 | ssideris | especially beginners |
| 22:16 | tomoj | indeed |
| 22:17 | tomoj | counted? is good |
| 22:17 | ssideris | are you aware of any texts that explain things a bit more clearly? |
| 22:17 | tomoj | nope :/ |
| 22:17 | tomoj | the source? |
| 22:17 | tomoj | having a list of the methods in the mentioned interfaces to go along with the table would be nice |
| 22:18 | tomoj | though from a clojure perspective those should be de-emphasized I guess |
| 22:19 | _ato | quick and dirty version: http://meshy.org/~ato/tmp/colls.html |
| 22:21 | quizme | tomoj: are you writing a tutorial ? |
| 22:21 | tomoj | nope |
| 22:22 | tomoj | was going to make a chart like _ato's |
| 22:22 | tomoj | your htmlize is sexy, _ato |
| 22:23 | ssideris | _ato: nice |
| 22:23 | tomoj | so lists (and seqs) are the only things that are their own seqs? |
| 22:25 | tomoj | the reduce in the agent-ring function at http://github.com/swannodette/clojure-benchmarks/blob/master/thread-ring/thread-ring.clj seems absolutely brilliant to me |
| 22:25 | _ato | ,(seq? (range 10)) |
| 22:25 | clojurebot | true |
| 22:25 | tomoj | though it took me a while to understand it |
| 22:26 | tomoj | oh, Conses are there own seqs too |
| 22:26 | tomoj | oh, Conses ARE seqs |
| 22:26 | tomoj | well of course they are. now I've confused myself :( |
| 22:27 | tomoj | it's a tautology that seqs are the only things that are their own seqs |
| 22:31 | tomoj | does anyone else thing that reduce is brilliant? |
| 22:32 | qed | like.. (reduce)? |
| 22:32 | qed | it's just a foldr right? |
| 22:33 | tomoj | ah, english |
| 22:33 | qed | you know...foldr...reduce has been around for awhile in various forms |
| 22:33 | tomoj | it's a foldl, though, right? |
| 22:33 | qed | err yeah sorry |
| 22:33 | qed | i always mix them up |
| 22:34 | tomoj | but what I meant was, does anyone else think that that reduce is brilliant |
| 22:34 | qed | ohhh, that *that* reduce |
| 22:34 | tomoj | as in, that reduce over there: http://github.com/swannodette/clojure-benchmarks/blob/master/thread-ring/thread-ring.clj |
| 22:34 | qed | i dont understand agents yet :\ |
| 22:34 | qed | bookmarks |
| 22:35 | ssideris | i think i'm going to bed |
| 22:35 | ssideris | thanks for all your help guys |
| 22:35 | ssideris | i still have loads to learn |
| 22:35 | ssideris | bye-bye! |
| 22:35 | _ato | heh, cute |
| 22:36 | tomoj | I would've never thought to use reduce there |
| 23:07 | duncanm | la la la |
| 23:44 | quizme | what's clojure's way of doing object-oriented stuff? |
| 23:44 | tomoj | does not doing object-oriented stuff count as a way of doing object-oriented stuff? |
| 23:44 | tomoj | maybe the new stuff in the new branch is what you're looking for, I dunno |
| 23:45 | quizme | clos stuff |
| 23:45 | tomoj | we have multimethods |
| 23:45 | tomoj | for dynamic dispatch |
| 23:46 | tomoj | and the new branch has some new stuff in that area as well |
