#clojure – 2009-11-18

2009-11-18

00:38	technomancy	_ato: how goes?
00:38	technomancy	have you beaten me to the finish line yet? =)
01:19	technomancy	oy... you can't add a docstring to a namespace once it's been defined?
01:33	_ato	technomancy: you should be able to, it should be mutable
01:33	_ato	technomancy: alter-meta!
01:33	technomancy	right; I was expecting re-evaling the ns form after adding a docstring would do it.
01:33	technomancy	no such luck
01:34	_ato	ah :(
01:34	technomancy	just confused me because I started to wonder if I was accessing the metadata correctly for a minute
01:34	_ato	oh and I'm getting there, got distracted by some other stuff for a few hours
01:35	technomancy	I just need more detailed help output for various tasks before I consider it ready for release.
01:35	_ato	I'm currently fighting sqlite's full-text search, looks like I need to make a seperate search table, it only wants to search one column at once
01:36	technomancy	=\
01:36	technomancy	how much works so far? can you sign up for an account?
01:36	_ato	pretty much everything but search should work, though it hasn't be thouroughly tested, lemme push my current version in to production
01:38	_ato	technomancy: oh yeah. Also would you be able to add a way to set <description> in the POM with leiningen? (assuming you haven't since I last looked at it) I need something to search on ;-)
01:39	technomancy	sure thing
01:41	_ato	ooh.. I jsut looked in the production db and there's already 2 other users, how exciting! ;-)
01:43	technomancy	and now three!
01:45	piccolino	Four
01:45	_ato	damn... uploading is broken
01:46	piccolino	That'll give me time to figure out how to make a jar.
01:51	_ato	oh bummer, and links to jars aren't working either. heh. like I said not tested
01:51	_ato	uploading should now work though.. sorta mostly :P
01:51	_ato	oh and the repo URL is http://clojars.org/repo/
01:52	technomancy	_ato: pushed out descriptions in leiningen
01:55	_ato	technomancy: awesome, thanks :)
02:04	technomancy	is lein push implemented?
02:05	technomancy	also: do you want me to add clojars to the default repo for this release?
02:05	technomancy	_ato: ^^
02:07	_ato	technomancy: take a look at http://github.com/ato/lein-clojars/
02:07	technomancy	I saw that; just wondering if it was working. =)
02:08	_ato	push should work with that, although again I haven't extensively everything yet
02:08	technomancy	cool
02:08	_ato	err extensively tested*
02:08	_ato	and yeah if you'd like to add clojars to lein's default repos, please do :)
02:09	technomancy	if you think it's ready. =)
02:09	jkkramer	technomancy: there's a typo in your latest commit. "designed not to set your hair on _file_"
02:09	jkkramer	in the :description line
02:10	technomancy	oops! thanks
02:11	_ato	technomancy: I'm determined to get the basics fully functional and debugged today. :)
02:14	_ato	ah! fixed the jar pages: http://clojars.org/compojure
02:17	technomancy	_ato: you want me to mention clojars as a "coming soon, watch out for:" in my leiningen announcement?
02:17	technomancy	=)
02:17	_ato	technomancy: hehe sure. :)
02:20	technomancy	_ato: I'm thrilled to get this out the door, but once the dust settles I'm going to be very interested in taking a closer look at the clojars code.
02:23	_ato	eek! :-) I'm a total compojure newbie so it probably doesn't look like much at the moment.
02:24	adityo	guys..what is Clojars.org?
02:24	technomancy	_ato: I haven't done anything with compojure either; no worries
02:25	_ato	adityo: it's almost a clojure community jar repository (for use with leiningen or maven or whatever)
02:25	_ato	well actually the repo part works, just need finish off browse and seearch
02:25	adityo	coool!!
02:32	technomancy	released, pushed, and announced.
02:34	_ato	technomancy: congrats! goodnight. :-)
02:38	adityo	waddap piyush
05:02	adityo	,doc partial
05:02	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/doc
05:03	adityo	,(doc partial)
05:03	clojurebot	"([f arg1] [f arg1 arg2] [f arg1 arg2 arg3] [f arg1 arg2 arg3 & more]); Takes a function f and fewer than the normal arguments to f, and returns a fn that takes a variable number of additional args. When called, the returned function calls f with args + additional args."
05:03	adityo	is a bit confusing!
05:03	adityo	would like to see some simple examples
05:27	_ato	,(filter (partial < 5) [1 7 3 2 5 9 2 3 4])
05:27	clojurebot	(7 9)
05:27	_ato	adityo: ^
05:33	adityo	_ato: hmm
05:33	adityo	,(filter #(< 5 %) [1 7 3 2 5 9 2 3 4])
05:33	clojurebot	(7 9)
05:34	adityo	what would be the benefits of using partial
05:34	Chousuke	it's sometimes neater.
05:35	Chousuke	mostly personal preference :P
05:36	adityo	anyways i think partial is cool :P
05:47	hoeck	adityo: also, partial can be nested, #() not
05:52	adityo	hoeck: yeah, thanks for pointing that out :)
06:05	Chousuke	adityo: the biggest problem with partial is that it's got 7 characters :P
06:08	hoeck	Chousuke: yes, are there any alternatives, for example, a shorter name or a reader macro?
06:09	Chousuke	hoeck: well, you can (def p partial)
06:09	Chousuke	but there's no reader macro
06:09	Chousuke	and somehow I doubt there will be :/
06:10	Chousuke	good macro characters are a scarce resource :)
06:15	hoeck	Chousuke: \| is unused :)
06:15	Hun	Chousuke: not if your reader allows unicode :)
06:16	Chousuke	unicode characters are out by default. :P
06:18	Chousuke	hoeck: and will probably be used for something more important than partial
06:26	adityo	,(doc comp)
06:26	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f1 f2 f3 & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the composition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, applies the rightmost of fns to the args, the next fn (right-to-left) to the result, etc."
06:42	esj	Guys, does there exists such a thing as a 'blocking rest' ? I have a seq that lives in atom and gets switched out from time to time as new data gets appended to it. I'm thinking about how to consume this seq, such that when the consumer gets to the end of the seq it doesn't just die, but blocks until something new is in the seq, rinse, repeat.
06:42	esj	any ideas ?
06:43	Chousuke	rest won't block, because it's lazy and you won't actually execute the function until you call first on it
06:44	Chousuke	but if the function generating the lazy seq items blocks, then any attempts to advance the seq will block too
06:45	Chousuke	I think there's something in contrib that creates a seq based on a BlockingQueue or something. (...vague, huh :P)
06:45	esj	Yeah, I've been reading through those
06:45	esj	its seque and fill-queue
06:46	esj	and something else too....
06:46	Chousuke	there's the hydra
06:46	Chousuke	hmm
06:46	ohpauleez	do you really want to block or do you want to poll/select?
06:46	Chousuke	~hydra
06:46	clojurebot	Excuse me?
06:46	esj	hydra - i'll have a look that
06:46	esj	I really don't want to poll
06:47	Chousuke	it was somewhere on pastebin/github
06:47	ohpauleez	ahh ok
06:47	esj	I basically need to know, cheaply, when a seq has been extended
06:47	Chousuke	hmm.
06:48	esj	I could use an observer type pattern so that the seq sends notifications, but wondered if there was a way to put the logic in the consumer, rather than the producer
06:49	ohpauleez	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Protocols
06:49	ohpauleez	one possibility might be to add a protocol for it, extending it
06:49	ohpauleez	ie: if you go to observer way
06:50	cgrand	esj, you can try a promised seq: (lazy-seq @p) where p is a promise, producer thread deliver p and calls to seq/next/rest will block
06:51	ohpauleez	cgrand: any docs on that?
06:53	ohpauleez	oh nvm, I just reread what you wrote, I get it
06:53	esj	esj has been scared to look at protocols --- massive brain stack overflow as it is :)
06:54	ohpauleez	haha
06:55	esj	thanks for the input everybody.
06:56	ohpauleez	esj: np
07:14	esj	cgrand: oh having unpacked this promised seq idea, the question I have is what function do I use as the promise / future ? It needs to somehow know when the original seq has been extended, or am I being dull ?
07:15	esj	which is how I got to the idea of the 'blocking rest' function
07:25	_ato	,(doc fill-queue)
07:25	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.seq-utils/fill-queue;[[filler-func & optseq]]; filler-func will be called in another thread with a single arg 'fill'. filler-func may call fill repeatedly with one arg each time which will be pushed onto a queue, blocking if needed until this is possible. fill-queue will return a lazy seq of the values filler-func has pushed onto the queue, blocking if needed until each next element becomes available. fil
07:31	esj	_ato: doh !
07:33	licoresse	oversaw someone speaking about many new special forms, where?
07:40	rsynnott	licoresse: is it any good? (the mouse)
07:40	licoresse	rsynnott: so far I am realy happy with it, very flexible with what finger you use to scroll
07:40	licoresse	you don't have to stay in the middle (where the ball previously were)
07:53	the-kenny	hm... I have to try the Magic Mouse in an Apple store.
08:45	Licenser	for ideomatic naming every function that changes state, or has side effects should have a ! in the end? like cd! for moving into a new directory?
08:45	cemerick	that's typical, yeah
08:46	Licenser	okay
08:46	Licenser	just wanted to be sure since for FileSystem opperations it kind of looked odd to have all the ! theree
08:47	cemerick	well, I don't do a lot of IO stuff, but ! is definitely associated with fns that destructively modify some data structure
08:47	Licenser	well rm! does that kind of doesn't it? The Data structure is the FS not a clojure data structure, or am I seening this wrong?
08:47	cemerick	thinking about it, all of the database libs, etc., don't use !, so perhaps it can be safely skipped for libs that are always associated with IO operations.
08:48	Licenser	nods
08:48	Licenser	hmm file IO isn't thread save :/
08:48	cemerick	yeah, I'll backtrack and say that for things that are implicitly side-effecting, ! is probably unnecessary
08:49	Licenser	that sounds usefull, it looked very odd after I added all the !
08:50	Licenser	hmm I think FS's are just not functional and I#ve to live with that
08:57	weissj	anybody here use vimclojure?
08:57	ohpauleez	I do
08:57	weissj	was looking for a better colorscheme than default - couldn't figure out where to get the one shown here: http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
08:58	chouser	inkpot has been my favorite for quite a while
08:58	weissj	chouser: is that builtin?
08:58	ohpauleez	I use wombat
08:58	chouser	weissj: I don't think so
08:58	ohpauleez	inkpot: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1143
08:59	ohpauleez	wombat: http://dengmao.wordpress.com/2007/01/22/vim-color-scheme-wombat/
08:59	ohpauleez	in the comments is my 256 version
09:00	weissj	ohpauleez: weird, i loaded inkpot and it's just plain green.
09:00	weissj	green is my terminal text color
09:00	ohpauleez	you might need to set your term and vim to 256 color
09:00	weissj	ohpauleez: gnome-terminal doesn't have 256?
09:01	ohpauleez	I've had issues with 256 and gnome-terminal, but other guys I work with have done it
09:01	weissj	ohpauleez: any idea how/
09:02	chouser	I just use gvim.
09:02	chouser	sorry that's not much help.
09:02	ohpauleez	http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1090344
09:02	ohpauleez	export TERM="xterm-256color"
09:02	ohpauleez	in your bash or zsh rc
09:04	weissj	ohpauleez: i think it got it, thanks!
09:04	weissj	supposed to be a lot of purple and blue right
09:04	ohpauleez	weissj: awesome, glad to hear it!
09:06	weissj	ohpauleez: so, what i find odd here is that "if" is purple, "defn" is green, "throw" is blue, "not" is red.
09:06	ohpauleez	with wombat?
09:07	weissj	oh sorry, i'm using chouser's colorscheme. but i think all those are different colors in any scheme
09:07	ohpauleez	right, macro, special forms, functions, data types, comments
09:07	ohpauleez	etc
09:08	chouser	not is purple for me, like the other core fns
09:09	chouser	dunno why "for" is blue but "with-out-str" is green. honestly, I'd never thought about it.
09:09	Licenser	hmm is there a way to compile a clojure into a jar with all dependecies? like the clojure stuff, and additional lbiraries?
09:09	weissj	chouser: is defn green for you?
09:09	chouser	weissj: yeah. so is "ns"
09:10	chouser	Licenser: I think that lein-thing has an "uberjar" command to do just that.
09:10	weissj	so no one has any idea what colorscheme is used here: http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
09:11	Licenser	chouser: thanks I'll try to figure that out
09:11	chouser	~seen kotarak
09:11	clojurebot	kotarak was last seen quiting IRC, 983 minutes ago
09:11	fogus_	Licenser: http://ant.apache.org/manual/CoreTypes/zipfileset.html
09:11	weissj	chouser: oh ok didn't know he hung out here
09:13	cemerick	that's funny, kotarak uses twitter via TwitVim
09:13	chouser	weissj: yeah, but I think he's on European time, so you'll have to wait a bit. :-)
09:13	weissj	chouser: isn't it the middle of the day in europe?
09:13	Licenser	fogus_: thanks
09:14	weissj	chouser or maybe you mean he hangs out here after work
09:14	chouser	weissj: hm. I guess you're right.
09:14	liwp	it's 2:13PM in the UK, so 3:13PM in Germany IIRC
09:15	Licenser	liwp: actually 15:14
09:15	liwp	:-P
09:15	Licenser	we have twice as much houres here in germany then you in the us :P
09:15	lisppaste8	fogus pasted "zipfileset example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90663
09:15	fogus_	Licenser: Use like this ^^^^^^
09:15	Licenser	fogus_: thanks, you're my hero!
09:16	fogus_	Licenser: YW. BUT, using Leningen would be nice too. :)
09:17	liwp	has anyone tried / does anyone know if the repl in leiningen is slime/swank enabled?
09:18	Licenser	fogus_: not when you're trapped om M$ Windooze
09:19	chouser	leningen doesn't work on Windows?
09:20	Licenser	chouser: it has a bash file :P
09:20	liwp	should be fine with cygwin or mingw though
09:20	Licenser	and I'm not in the mood right now to translate bash to bat :P
09:20	chouser	ah, yeah, maybe it just needs a .bat
09:21	liwp	the script uses curl / wget to pull stuff from github, so you need to have something similar available for windows
09:21	chouser	I haven't looked at it at all. Does it assume you have clojure or at least java already?
09:22	liwp	yeah, I think so
09:22	chouser	ok
09:22	liwp	IIRC it just pulls the leiningen stuff from github and that's it]
09:23	Licenser	well what I want to do is to create a .jar file that my more stupid colegues can execute without having to deal wit installing clojure or stuff
09:23	liwp	Licenser: are you using clojure at work?
09:24	Licenser	liwp: yes
09:24	liwp	Licenser: lucky you!
09:24	Licenser	but not for a project just for supporting tools
09:24	Licenser	liwp: yap lucky me
09:24	liwp	Licenser: that's still better than no clojure
09:24	weissj	any vim clojure users recognize this error with omnicomplete: Error detected while processing function vimclojure#OmniCompletion..vimclojure#ExecuteNail..vimclojure#ExecuteNa
09:24	weissj	ilWithInput:
09:24	weissj	line 19:
09:24	weissj	Couldn't execute Nail! [{"word" : "RuntimeException", "info" : "", "kind" : "c", "menu" : ""}]
09:24	Licenser	my boss as realized that letting me do my stuff is better then not letting me do my stuff :P
09:32	esj	sigh, making slime/swank work with the latest clojure is upsetting
09:33	ambient	making emacs a full clojure ide is upsetting, but perhaps that's just me
09:35	esj	making it work the first time was unenjoyable, but repeating the exercise...
09:35	esj	well, it hasn't killed me, so i must be getting stronger
09:35	chouser	heh
09:36	chouser	unfortunately all you can no for sure is that it hasn't killed you yet
09:36	ambient	but how would you know after you died that it killed you?
09:37	Maddas	esj: http://site.despair.com/images/dpage/adversity03.jpg
09:38	ambient	heh. my own version is "that which does not kill me, makes me weaker"
09:38	chouser	heh. replace "adversity" with "emacs" and then you'd have a poster.
09:38	esj	ie: that which does not kill me, is due for upgrade in the next version ?
09:39	ambient	unless you kill it first
09:40	ohpauleez	weissj: are you just opening up vim or trying to open a fie
09:40	ohpauleez	also, do you have nailgun running and is the client in your path?
09:40	weissj	ohpauleez: it's working now, for some reason
09:40	weissj	now i'm trying to figure out how to load the file i'm editing in a repl, and call one of the fn's
09:40	weissj	when i do \ef i get a read-only window listing the fn's
09:41	ohpauleez	Ok, I've noticed that vimclojure will choke sometimes if you open a file with a ns form at the top
09:41	weissj	ohpauleez: really? isn't that pretty much all of em
09:41	ohpauleez	weissj: (load-file "file-name")
09:41	ohpauleez	yes, it is, but after the error happens once it doesn't happen again for me
09:41	weissj	ohpauleez: then what is \ef for
09:42	weissj	<LocalLeader>ef ef EvalFile
09:42	weissj	Send off the current file to the Clojure Server.
09:42	ohpauleez	ohhh in vimclojure
09:42	ohpauleez	I thought you meant on any given REPL
09:42	weissj	ohpauleez: yeah sorry :) that load thing is why i'm trying vimclojure
09:43	weissj	that gets annoying
09:43	ohpauleez	I rarely use all the extra things, and only use it for text editing and quick evaling
09:43	weissj	hm ok
09:51	Licenser	hmm I found a pretty simple msolution, netbeans puts all libs in a lib folder which the jar uses automatically :D
10:00	sh10151	technomancy: found a little bug in swank-clojure-project the other night
10:02	esj	yeah, it came up on the googlegroup: http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg20575.html
10:02	esj	http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg20576.html rather
10:07	sh10151	think this is a different bug I found
10:07	sh10151	Mine's just the maven-specific portion should treat target/dependency like a directory full of jars, not an exploded directory of .class files
10:10	esj	ok, sorry.
10:21	patrkris	the way to get clojure 1.1 alpha is just by cloning the git repos?
10:21	ohpauleez	patrkris: yes
10:21	patrkris	thanks
10:21	ohpauleez	clone it and build it, then put the jar in your classpath like normal
10:21	ohpauleez	np
10:46	michael_teter	Hello. I'm having great difficulty with basic configuration (I get FileNotFoundException when trying to use clojure.contrib)
10:47	michael_teter	I've built clojure-contrib.jar, and my clj.bat script is adding clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar to the classpath (-cp), but still I can't use clojure.contrib
10:47	michael_teter	Ideas?
10:50	michael_teter	my script is listed at http://pastebin.com/d5bdff0ef
10:51	michael_teter	and C:\src\clojure contains clojure.jar, and C:\src\clojure-contrib contains clojure-contrib.jar
10:53	AWizzArd	michael_teter: could you try to echo the variable which you append as the CP?
10:53	AWizzArd	So you can see if it really points to the clojure.jar and the clojure-contrib.jar
10:54	michael_teter	ok, willdo
10:54	AWizzArd	maybe @echo on or something like that at top of the .bat file
10:54	patrkris	michael_teter: what do you write in the REPL to try to use clojure-contrib?
10:55	michael_teter	It appears I have a user path problem, so it was using an old clj.bat
10:55	michael_teter	I may be ok; let me test with the correct .bat :)
10:56	michael_teter	I'm sorry, this was a stupid user problem. my clj.bat is fine, and my contrib is loadable. I just had a windows path problem
10:56	michael_teter	but to answer patrkris, I did (use 'clojure.contrib.sql)
10:57	michael_teter	it works now
10:57	michael_teter	Thanks all
10:57	sh10151	looking at clojure.contrib.zip-filter.xml source, I don't see any negation examples
10:58	sh10151	has anyone done that? e.g. return nodes that don't match a predicate
10:58	sh10151	s/e.g./i.e.
10:59	chouser	sh10151: I don't think I've done it, but each step in xml-> is a filter run against all nodes at the level, so it should be straightforward.
11:19	Licenser	hmm (reader) will block when the stream it reads from is empty, what is the best way to prevent this, or at least give a usefull return value like :reader_empty?
11:19	stuartsierra	Licenser: call .available on the stream
11:19	stuartsierra	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/io/InputStream.html
11:20	Licenser	ah darn I looked at the output stream docs o.O
11:20	stuartsierra	or .ready on a Reader
11:21	Licenser	I called ready but (first (line-seq reader-thingy)) still blocks
11:21	Licenser	ah darn I think I know why o.O because the line-seq does not find a \n on the last line hrm
11:24	stuartsierra	reader, line-seq, etc. are conveniences, if you need to handle streams directly, e.g. to avoid blocking, you may be better off working with the stream objects
11:25	Licenser	whine but it is javaisch :P
11:25	stuartsierra	Clojure is Java. Therein lies its beauty and its tragedy.
11:26	stuartsierra	Speaking of which, someone tried my clojure-hadoop library on large-ish data and kept getting "GC limit exceeded" errors
11:26	Licenser	Clojure has the JVM but untill now it really shielded me from the ugly object mess in java
11:26	cemerick	stuartsierra: what's "large-ish"?
11:29	sh10151	chouser: looks as though it's as straightforward as (comp not (attr= :foo "bar")) at least in my case
11:29	chouser	sh10151: great!
11:32	stuartsierra	cemerick: 3 GB
11:33	stuartsierra	I think it's something to do with handling the Hadoop reducer operation with lazy sequences.
11:36	cemerick	holding head, etc., I presume
11:40	stuartsierra	I think so, yes. But it's interesting that it's not "Heap size exceeded," but "GC overhead exceeded," i.e., the JVM is spending too much time in GC.
11:41	chouser	stuartsierra: I tend to get those more or less interchangably
11:41	chouser	I think
11:41	stuartsierra	Interesting.
11:42	tomoj	I've never seen "GC limit exceeded" before
11:42	stuartsierra	Is it true that simply (defn foo [a-sequence] ...) holds the head of a-sequence?
11:43	cemerick	it has to, yes
11:43	tomoj	so how to the core sequence functions get around that?
11:43	tomoj	how _do_ I mean
11:44	Licenser	hmm why does the function has to hold head?
11:44	cemerick	further, I presume that rebinding a-sequence elsewhere doesn't impact that -- if that weren't the case, that would be helpful.
11:45	tomoj	oh, I guess it only holds the head for the duration of the function call?
11:45	stuartsierra	Licenser: It doesn't HAVE to, but it does, because of the way Clojure and the JVM interact.
11:45	Licenser	with [a-seq] do you meen the arg seq or is a-seq a argument passed to the seq?
11:45	tomoj	so that if you return a lazy-seq, you're ok
11:45	cemerick	right, insofar as parameters to clojure fns are parameters to java methods, the same semantics apply
11:45	stuartsierra	yes, function locals last until the method returns
11:46	rhickey	stuartsierra: it won't hold it beyond the tail call of ...
11:46	Licenser	ah okay that is what you mean
11:46	Licenser	if you don#t want to have it hold head you could call (afn (fn [] a-seq)) right?
11:47	stuartsierra	rhickey: That's what I thought. Unfortunately, the reducer function, as I've implemented it, has to return pairs.
11:47	rhickey	cemerick: and loop rebinding will overwrite and thus release
11:47	stuartsierra	It looks like (defn my-reducer [key seq-of-values] [[key (reduce + seq-of-values)]])
11:47	stuartsierra	for a simple wordcount example
11:48	stuartsierra	So the (reduce + ...) isn't in tail position.
11:48	cemerick	rhickey: sure, but a loop binding doesn't impact a separate fn parameter binding w.r.t. the latter holding head, right?
11:48	rhickey	yeah, the JVM doesn't see the stack reference to seq-of-vales as dead, and I only explicit null out (to help the JVM) on tail calls
11:49	stuartsierra	Is there a way I can work around that?
11:49	rhickey	cemerick: no, they are different bindings, even if the same name
11:49	cemerick	OK, glad I didn't misunderstand that.
11:50	lpetit	stuartsierra: out of my head (so maybe a big idiocy) : (defn my-reducer [key fn-producing-seq-of-values] [[key (reduce + (fn-producing-seq-of-values))]])
11:51	stuartsierra	does that solve it?
11:54	lpetit	stuartsierra: or (not changing your user interface) : (defn my-reducer [key seq-or-fn] (if (ifn? seq-or-fn) [[key (reduce + (seq-or-fn))]] (recur key #(seq-or-fn))))
11:54	lpetit	ugly, if not :)
11:54	lpetit	but still I'm not 100% sure this solves your problem
11:54	lpetit	feedback appreciated
11:56	stuartsierra	lpetit: I'm not worried about changing the interface; my-reducer is a user-supplied function, not part of the library.
11:56	lpetit	stuartsierra: sorry, mistake in the #() (but you've got the idea)
11:56	stuartsierra	I'm going to try that, though
11:56	lpetit	stuartsierra: but beware the problem may still be hidden in the user code ?
11:57	tomoj	is there a better way to get the project root than something like (nth (iterate #(.getParentFile %) (File. file)) 5) ?
11:59	stuartsierra	tomoj: in general, Java prefers classpath-relative paths rather than filesystem lookup
12:01	tomoj	yeah, but I wanted to get a file:///... to load some static html files with htmlunit
12:01	tomoj	thinking I'll just start a servlet instead since I'll need to do cookies etc eventually
12:01	stuartsierra	tomoj: you can add your static html directory to the classpath, then use one of the ClassLoader.getResource* methods
12:03	tomoj	oh, that would be cool
12:03	tomoj	thanks
12:03	stuartsierra	np
12:07	Licenser	grr, I don't seem to gasp the reader stuff, I came up with a own readln but it's ugly and mostly not working (always returning blank lines). If someone would take a look I'd be very glad, https://gist.github.com/edf803e0aa07ef2161eb
12:08	stuartsierra	Licenser: this would work better with a StringBuilder
12:08	stuartsierra	Also Reader.read returns an int, not a char.
12:09	Licenser	ahh nseaky I missed that :(
12:15	lpetit	stuartsierra: I must leave, would you please email me the result (if it works, or even if it doesn't work)?
12:15	stuartsierra	sure
12:15	Licenser	narf I fopund the problem
12:15	Licenser	the function was called too fast, the stream hadn't had data yet
12:31	rads	in ruby you can do this: [0]*6 => [0,0,0,0,0,0]. what's the equivalent in clojure?
12:32	tomoj	,(repeat 6 0)
12:32	clojurebot	(0 0 0 0 0 0)
12:32	rads	thanks
12:48	Licenser	well time to go home
12:59	icey	technomancy: congrats on launching leiningen - it looks awesome!
13:05	technomancy	icey: thanks! hope it works well for you.
13:11	djork	technomancy: what's leiningen?
13:11	technomancy	djork: a build tool designed not to set your hair on fire
13:11	technomancy	I should teach clojurebot!
13:11	djork	oh cool
13:12	djork	heh yes
13:12	ohpauleez	build tool, an awesome one
13:12	technomancy	clojurebot: leiningen is a build tool designed not to set your hair on fire (http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen)
13:12	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
13:12	technomancy	of course, there's no guarantee that it won't set your hair on fire. that's just the goal.
13:12	ohpauleez	I haven't used it yet, but I'm pumped to
13:13	ohpauleez	Well I think any build tool that is expressive makes the job easier
13:13	ohpauleez	but Clojure allows you to make a DSL
13:13	ohpauleez	for building, which is ideal
13:17	rahulkmr1	Having trouble with vimclojure. It won't compile complaining about pprint not found. "Could not locate clojure/contrib/pprint__init.class or clojure/contrib/pprint.clj on classpath"
13:18	michaeljaaka	hi
13:18	rahulkmr1	I compiled clojure-contrib again from source. and -Dclojure.jar=/path/to/clojure.jar
13:18	michaeljaaka	I want to learn how to assign new values to vars
13:18	michaeljaaka	I have read that somehting like this
13:18	michaeljaaka	,(do (def n 1)(set! n 2 )(println n))
13:18	clojurebot	DENIED
13:18	ohpauleez	You need to put the contrib jar in your classpath too
13:18	rahulkmr1	but that still didn't solve the issue. Any ideas what am I doing wrong?
13:18	michaeljaaka	is not valid
13:19	rahulkmr1	for compiling vimclojure? yes. I did that.
13:19	michaeljaaka	so what I should use to make it possible?
13:19	djork	michaeljaaka: try refs, not vars
13:19	rahulkmr1	when I compiled clojure-contrib with ant -Dclojure.jar, I still couldn't find the file vimclojure is complaining about
13:19	rahulkmr1	ppprint__init.class
13:19	djork	michaeljaaka: but first consider if you really need to change anything at all
13:20	michaeljaaka	yes, I need it
13:20	michaeljaaka	I think that agents will be good
13:20	rahulkmr1	it wasn't there in the classes or clojure-contrib.jar. The error message also talks about pprint.clj. Is there a way I can place the .clj file somewhere and it takes it from there?
13:20	michaeljaaka	but first I want to learn anything about assigning values
13:21	djork	michaeljaaka: I just feel that if you're asking about how to re-assign to vars in Clojure you haven't had quite enough experience with the language to know if you really need to in the first place
13:21	chouser	changing the root value of a var is hardly ever the right thing to do
13:21	michaeljaaka	well, I want to track available nodes in a cluster
13:22	chouser	a ref!
13:22	michaeljaaka	they are chaning in time
13:22	michaeljaaka	so I need to store theirs availbility (addresses)
13:22	djork	a ref is perfect for that
13:22	michaeljaaka	and remove if timeout of hearbeat occures
13:22	michaeljaaka	ok
13:23	ohpauleez	rahulkmr1: Are you building everything from clean, are following every instruction
13:24	ohpauleez	I've had vimclojure fail when I was building with an unclean build dir
13:24	ohpauleez	but I just rebuilt everything about five days ago, and it's working ok for me
13:25	rahulkmr1	ohpauleez: ant clean should do the trick? anyways, let me try to untar and start again. But really, I don't see the pprint__init.class file in the contrib jar even when I did a "ant -Dclojure.jar=/path". I think even my clean compile will fail again.
13:26	ohpauleez	rahulkmr1: also, just for the sake of it: export CLASSPATH=$CLASSPATH:/path/to/clojure.jar:/path/to/contrib.jar:.
13:27	rahulkmr1	yes. I have that in my .bashrc. I have been running clojure for the past week. So no issues with cp. I was re-compiling contrib coz of vimclojure
13:27	hiredman_	rahulkmr1: where did you get contrib from?
13:27	hiredman_	_!
13:28	rahulkmr1	hiredman: I didn't really pay attention. I got one copy of contrib with sample code for programming clojure. And I d/l the source a couple of mins ago from some git repo which came up in my google search. Do I know a specific one?
13:28	hiredman	sounds right
13:29	hiredman	what does the output of ant look like?
13:29	rahulkmr1	BUILD FAILED
13:29	rahulkmr1	/home/rahulkmr/utils/vimclojure/vimclojure/build.xml:66: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/pprint__init.class or clojure/contrib/pprint.clj on classpath: (util.clj:23)
13:29	hiredman	rahulkmr1: I meant for contrib
13:30	rahulkmr1	oops. sorry
13:30	michaeljaaka	what is a difference between alter and commute?
13:30	hiredman	~commute
13:30	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:30	hiredman	~alter
13:30	clojurebot	alter is always correct
13:30	rahulkmr1	hiredman: jar:
13:30	rahulkmr1	[jar] Building jar: /home/rahulkmr/utils/richhickey-clojure-contrib-f165e28/clojure-contrib.jar
13:30	rahulkmr1	BUILD SUCCESSFUL
13:30	michaeljaaka	I can read that commute allow concurent changes within transaction
13:30	hiredman	rahulkmr1: that is not the whole output
13:31	hiredman	pastebin it somewhere
13:31	rahulkmr1	oh. ok. will do that
13:31	michaeljaaka	I mean others won't wait for transaction to finish
13:31	hiredman	michaeljaaka: use alter
13:31	michaeljaaka	ok
13:31	michaeljaaka	alter is like pesimistic locking?
13:31	michaeljaaka	I alter lock
13:31	hiredman	no
13:31	michaeljaaka	monitor or whatever
13:31	michaeljaaka	change value
13:31	michaeljaaka	and release lock?
13:31	hiredman	no
13:32	michaeljaaka	synchonized(value) { value.add("somthing") }
13:32	ohpauleez	no
13:32	michaeljaaka	this is alter?
13:32	hiredman	no
13:32	michaeljaaka	:)
13:32	ohpauleez	michaeljaaka: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/0e575db4718c1f85
13:32	danlarkin	yes?
13:33	ohpauleez	alter does it during the transaction, commute waits for commit time
13:34	hiredman	no
13:34	ohpauleez	no?
13:35	hiredman	no
13:35	hiredman	use alter
13:37	rahulkmr1	hiredman: here is the dump: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/684620
13:37	qed	i have a grid 20x20 as a vector, how do I split it up into 2 sequences which are 20 rows and 20 columns
13:38	michaeljaaka	wow, I manage to write first alternation in transaction! thanks man!
13:38	hiredman	rahulkmr1: where did you get your clojure?
13:39	rahulkmr1	I think it's the one which came with the book. Lemme check
13:39	hiredman	ok
13:39	ohpauleez	qed: map vector, and partition?
13:39	Bjering_	Why does this throw IOException? (with-open [rdr (reader "http://clojure.org/")] (take 2 (line-seq rdr)))
13:39	hiredman	you will need the 1.0 compat branch of contrib
13:39	hiredman	Bjering_: line-seq and take are both lazy
13:40	hiredman	so by the time you force them, with-open has closed the reader
13:40	ohpauleez	,(map vector [1 1 1 1][2 2 2 2])
13:40	clojurebot	([1 2] [1 2] [1 2] [1 2])
13:40	Bjering_	ah
13:40	michaeljaaka	check this out and let me know if it is ok http://pastebin.com/d2a6d0ae0
13:40	michaeljaaka	or anything can be improved
13:41	Bjering_	Then the next q becomes, why is (with-open [rdr (reader "http://clojure.org/")] (doall (take 2 (line-seq rdr)))) empty?
13:42	hiredman	,(doc reader)
13:42	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.duck-streams/reader;[[x]]; Attempts to coerce its argument into an open java.io.BufferedReader. Argument may be an instance of Reader, BufferedReader, InputStream, File, URI, URL, Socket, or String. If argument is a String, it tries to resolve it first as a URI, then as a local file name. URIs with a 'file' protocol are converted to local file names. Uses default-encoding as the text encoding. Should be
13:42	qed	ohpauleez: oh right :) i didnt know about partition
13:42	qed	thanks
13:42	ohpauleez	qed: happy to help
13:44	hiredman	Bjering_: hard to say
13:44	hiredman	I blame reader
13:47	rahulkmr1	hiredman: just to be sure, i just downloaded a new copy of clojure from clojure.org and compiled it. copied the jar files and set the classpath. I still am getting those pesky messages while compiling clojure-contrib if that's what you asked me where did I get clojure from
13:47	rahulkmr1	hiredman: Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/walk__init.class or clojure/walk.clj on classpath:
13:47	rahulkmr1	I got a new copy of clojure and these messages persist while compiling contrib
13:47	hiredman	rahulkmr1: as I said, you need the 1.0 compat branch of contrib
13:48	rahulkmr1	oh. I thought I got the latest copy from github. Lemme check
13:48	hiredman	you did get the latest
13:48	hiredman	but you don't have the latest clojure
13:48	hiredman	you have the 1.0 release
13:48	rahulkmr1	so shall I do a repo copy then?
13:48	rahulkmr1	for clojure, I mean
13:49	hiredman	you can also just get the 1.0 compat branch of contrib
13:50	rahulkmr1	I would rather be on the bleeding edge:-). Will check if the repo copy works with this contrib or else would downgrade contrib
13:50	jkkramer	Bjering: clojure.org redirects upon visiting. see `curl -i http://clojure.org`
13:51	Bjering_	jkkramer: aha.. yes wirks nicely with google.com
13:51	Bjering_	works
13:52	Bjering_	thanks hiredman & jkkramer
13:54	michaeljaaka	I need some advice can it be improved? http://pastebin.com/d3e81dde0
13:54	michaeljaaka	as you can see every time I create a map
13:54	michaeljaaka	is there any way to replace values under key inplace ?
13:55	michaeljaaka	the keys are :alive and :reported
13:55	michaeljaaka	maybe I should use struct ?
13:58	rahulkmr1	So I got my vimclojure compiled. I had to "git clone" clojure to make it work with my copy of contrib. But the compilation completed fine. I have my vimclojure.jar now. Thanks
13:59	ohpauleez	nice to hear rahulkmr1, enjoy!
14:00	stuartsierra	Can we come up with a general notion of "lazy-safe" functions in Clojure?
14:01	stuartsierra	That is, functions that take a sequence as an argument and will not run out of memory on very large sequences.
14:07	chouser	stuartsierra: how would you classify 'reduce'?
14:08	chouser	(reduce + c) is safe, (reduce conj {} c) is not
14:09	hiredman	(reduce + c) might not be either
14:09	hiredman	for a big C
14:09	chouser	oh?
14:09	chouser	If it's ever safe to walk all of c, (reduce + c) is safe, isn't it?
14:10	hiredman	there is a limit to how large of a number that can be stored in the memory of a computer
14:10	chouser	oh
14:10	chouser	(reduce (constantly nil) c)
14:10	hiredman	:P
14:11	hiredman	(partial * 0)
14:11	chouser	but of course if c is being held elsewhere, or if c itself has elements that are dangerous to compute, then still dangerous.
14:13	hiredman	I think you end up with moscow rules with regards to laziness
14:14	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moscow_Rules
14:14	chouser	already there
14:14	chouser	:-)
14:14	stuartsierra	hmph
14:15	stuartsierra	I was hoping we could codify some rules for what is "lazy-safe."
14:15	hiredman	"# Everyone is potentially under opposition control."
14:15	stuartsierra	"Technology will always let you down."
14:15	chouser	everything is lazy safe if seqs are never very large.
14:16	hiredman	stuartsierra: that might just be the halting problem all over again
14:16	hiredman	you can't tell if it is lazy safe without computing it
14:16	stuartsierra	hiredman: Ok, not totally generally, then. But rules of thumb.
14:16	tayssir	Hi! Can someone help with a weird headscratcher? I used to be able to MySQL db from Clojure/Emacs/Slime, but not today. It still works under both pure Java and commandline Clojure. And it's apparently not a classpath issue, since (Class/forName "com.mysql.jdbc.Driver") works... Voodoo suggestions welcome! ;)
14:17	stuartsierra	I don't want an algorithmic lazy-safe-check, I want guidelines to give to new users.
14:17	rhickey	stuartsierra: do you have an example of one that isn't?
14:17	stuartsierra	Sure: (defn count-them [seq] [(count seq)])
14:18	rhickey	that's your function, not Clojure's
14:18	stuartsierra	Right, so I want guidelines for writing functions that are lazy-safe.
14:18	rhickey	the rules are simple, all seqs are live until the tail call of the function
14:19	chouser	stuartsierra: Guideline number 1: Vary your pattern and stay within your cover.
14:19	stuartsierra	ok, so could one say that any function that calls a built-in sequence function in tail position is safe?
14:19	rhickey	stuartsierra: should be
14:21	stuartsierra	And, following lpetit's suggestion, a lazy seq wrapped in a function is also safe: (defn count-them [seq-fn] [(count (seq-fn))])
14:21	ohpauleez	chouser: haha
14:21	ohpauleez	re: vary your pattern...
14:21	chouser	:-)
14:22	rhickey	you can see the technique used in drop/drop-while also
14:22	stuartsierra	ok, that's helpful
14:23	stuartsierra	Can I generalize that?
14:23	chouser	the rules are as simple as when scheme will avoid stack consumption on a recursive call
14:23	chouser	can we have a 'recur' for lazy seqs?
14:23	stuartsierra	as in (defn count-them [a-seq] (let [f (fn [] s)] [(count (f))]) ?
14:23	michaeljaaka	hi!
14:24	michaeljaaka	I have function
14:24	stuartsierra	I mean (defn count-them [a-seq] (let [f (fn [] a-seq)] [(count (f))]) ?
14:24	michaeljaaka	(fn [] let[ x 3 ] (when (true) (set! x 5)))
14:24	michaeljaaka	how to change local value in codition?
14:24	chouser	michaeljaaka: locals are immutable
14:25	ohpauleez	and are bound to that scope
14:25	chouser	michaeljaaka: you can get close to that with loop and recur
14:25	stuartsierra	no, that last example doesn't work
14:26	rhickey	stuartsierra: didn't think so
14:26	michaeljaaka	hmmm, I will split func to two funcs and make an codition
14:27	stuartsierra	So once you accept a sequence as an argument, you must use a lazy-seq function in tail position or you're hosed?
14:29	rhickey	lazy != ephemeral
14:32	stuartsierra	yeah, yeah. :)
14:32	rhickey	that said, I understand it could be known that seq is not used after the call to count in: (defn count-them [seq] [(count seq)])
14:33	rhickey	and the CLR knows that
14:33	stuartsierra	ok
14:33	stuartsierra	Is there a way I can tell the JVM that?
14:33	rhickey	but the JVM doesn't, and doing that manually would be a significant piece of work in the current compiler
14:33	rhickey	what I'm doing now (nulling locals on tail call) is a complete hack that shouldn't be needed
14:34	chouser	but would be a cinch with datalog
14:34	rhickey	doing liveness tracking a whole other thing
14:34	stuartsierra	rhickey: Got it. What I need is a workaround then. Wrapping the seq in a fn is one way, I guess.
14:34	rhickey	there isn't always a workaround
14:34	stuartsierra	hrm, ok
14:35	rhickey	one thing that might be possible, but extremely ugly and painful, would be some sort of (releasing seq) primitive
14:35	rhickey	slectively applied could solve any case
14:36	stuartsierra	Yeah, I wondered about that. (ephemeral! a-seq)
14:36	rhickey	it's really (I'm-done-with seq)
14:36	stuartsierra	(dispose seq)
14:37	rhickey	aargh
14:37	stuartsierra	:)
14:37	rhickey	because it doesn't really dispose, more like relinquish
14:38	ohpauleez	(release seq)
14:38	rhickey	no point in a naming exercise since I'm unlikely to add this wart-like thing and have it be in people's code
14:39	stuartsierra	heh
14:39	stuartsierra	wish I could help with that
14:39	ohpauleez	have you shopped it out yet, or asked around?
14:40	cburroughs	When would the 'wrap a seq in a fn' technique not work?
14:40	ohpauleez	I know the PyPy guys went on a speaking tour when their EU funding was running low
14:40	rhickey	It has to become important to enough companies that something like this: http://industry.haskell.org/index might fly
14:41	ohpauleez	I know for a fact of two companies in Philadelphia (one of them being Comcast) that are actively developing with clojure
14:42	ohpauleez	rhickey: If you want, I can roll through some of my contacts to see if I can get the groundwork for some sponsorship for you
14:42	fogus_	Is the Haskell industrial community that much larger?
14:43	ohpauleez	fogus_: I wouldn't think so
14:44	fogus_	Granted, Haskell has been around for 100 years
14:44	chouser	in "clojure years"
14:44	ohpauleez	haha
14:45	fogus_	I dog year == ?? Clojure years
14:45	fogus_	1 that is
14:45	jweiss	i got $20 i can donate :)
14:45	rhickey	ohpauleez: thanks, I'd like to wait until I have a model to propose
14:46	ohpauleez	rhickey: totally, let me know. I'm more than happy to help via community support or outreach
14:46	michaeljaaka	hi can anyone tell what is wrong with that code? http://pastebin.com/d25bc28af
14:46	michaeljaaka	I get
14:46	michaeljaaka	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: if-let requires a vector for its binding (NO_SOURCE_FILE:457)>
14:46	michaeljaaka	that pseudo code (def n {123 #{"a" "b"}})(if-let [t (get n 123)] t nil) works fine
14:47	michaeljaaka	I think that I'm using it in the same way
14:48	ohpauleez	,(let [[a b c] [1 2 3] b (str b)] (list a b c))
14:48	clojurebot	(1 "2" 3)
14:48	ohpauleez	look at your let form
14:49	tomoj	is it just me or are you trying to call correct like correct(args...)
14:49	sh10151	tayssir: did you get your MySQL issue sorted out?
14:49	michaeljaaka	doh
14:50	michaeljaaka	bad call for correct :)
14:50	michaeljaaka	lol
14:50	Kjellski	Guess you´ve got exactly 5 min to show clojure in a REPL, what would you show?
14:50	sh10151	Kjellski: are you showing it to Java people, Lisp people, or scripting language people?
14:51	Kjellski	sh10151 : Java...
14:52	ohpauleez	michaeljaaka: did that fix it, the correct?
14:52	michaeljaaka	yes
14:52	tomoj	seqs and java interop?
14:52	jweiss	any vimclojure users know how to control indenting? I'm surrounding a form with another fn call, i want it to indent the entire block more.
14:52	michaeljaaka	thank you very much
14:52	sh10151	Kjellski: the Apache Commons isEmpty() example from "Programming Clojure" might be a good start
14:52	Kjellski	sh10151 : And btw. The simple don´t fear the braces from stuarts book is in...
14:52	sh10151	sorry, isBlank
14:52	Kjellski	sh10151 : ^^ you mean the indexOfAny?
14:53	michaeljaaka	this irc channel saves me a lot of time
14:53	jkkramer	manipulating parts of a running program is always fun to show off
14:53	sh10151	no, StringUtils.isBlank from page 2
14:53	Kjellski	jkkramer : like the almost "magically" Frame setSite?
14:53	stuartsierra_	show a simple "map" example, then ask "how would you parallelize this across multiple cores," then add one letter to get "pmap"
14:55	sh10151	are you showing it in a REPL or do you you use slime? when I did a presentation to Java people they seemed impressed with emacs + paredit + slime :-P
14:55	Kjellski	stuartsierra : Thats neat, ... definitively in...
14:55	sh10151	not really something to point out specifically
14:55	jkkramer	Kjellski: could create/run a simple game, like tic-tac-toe. and manipulate rules or appearance during the game
14:55	jkkramer	i might be doing that for a presentation, using the game go
14:56	Kjellski	jkkramer : I would love to discribe what I´m doing while typing, and I guess it would be hard to tell them from scratch everything for a tic tac toe...
14:56	jkkramer	yeah, probably too complex to explain quickly
14:57	stuartsierra_	rhickey used to do demos showing that a Swing GUI app is shorter in Clojure than in Java
14:57	sh10151	Maybe you can concoct an example for (binding ...) ... every time I use it I think, "why the heck do people think they need a framework for this?"
14:57	Kjellski	stuartsierra_: damn, that is a really nice thing to ask... =)
14:57	tomoj	I think it could be good to show them how easily they can use the java stuff they've already got
14:57	tomoj	but 5min isn't a long time :(
14:58	sh10151	since I'm pretty sure everything you can do with Spring container injection you can do with binding
14:59	Kjellski	tomoj: That´s true! Really not enough ... but I need to fix my time before breaking my own rules... ^^
15:00	Kjellski	sh10151 : I´m not sure that everyone of them used these in lab... so I think one Java-interop thing is missing... maybe a small frame with setSize as you mentioned before?
15:01	sh10151	seems straightforward to me but I think it was stuartsierra_ mentioning Swing :)
15:02	Kjellski	oh, sorry... but that gave me some nice hints, thank all.
15:03	tomoj	I'm wondering if I can convince my employers to let me use clojure since they have java stuff in place. probably unlikely since I'm the only one who knows clojure and I'm not gonna be there for a long time :(
15:03	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "failed attempt to make assertions about head-holding" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90685
15:04	chouser	http://www.ecentralmetrics.com/onlinedisplay/jobdisplay.cfm?posting=73790&bid=326 -- comcast job listing with clojure
15:04	sh10151	tomoj: I've been able to use it pretty well as a prototyping/scripting/"one-time shot" language
15:05	chouser	rhickey: well this is meant as a diagnostic tool, not for deployed code.
15:05	rhickey	just kidding
15:05	chouser	but I appear to be doing it wrong anyhow
15:06	djork	chouser: wow, clojure in a job listing... that's a first for me
15:06	chouser	tomoj: I've gotten away with using Clojure so far because they're under the vague impression it'll be rewritten in C++ once the performance starts to be an issue.
15:06	stuartsierra_	djork: there have been a few now; follow #clojure on Twitter
15:06	djork	neat
15:07	djork	heh http://craiglook.com/all.html?q=clojure
15:07	djork	0 results
15:07	stuartsierra_	cool jobs aren't on Craigslist :)
15:07	djork	probably not
15:08	tomoj	chouser: haha
15:09	stuartsierra_	chouser: I did the pmap trick for a C++ guy and he said, "ooh, that's hot"
15:09	chouser	heh
15:10	tomoj	this job looks awesome http://is.gd/4YecE
15:10	djork	I can't convince my C# friend that Clojure is even worth a glance
15:11	ohpauleez	then he isn't your friend anymore
15:11	djork	hah. he always says "I can do that with LINQ!"
15:11	djork	but then I say "but can you add new syntax? from a REPL?"
15:11	ohpauleez	Yes Comcast uses clojure, as does Algorithmics
15:12	chouser	cgrand: is pipe the same as fill-queue only so much cleaner?
15:12	tomoj	C#==blub?
15:13	djork	C# is a much better blub than most though
15:13	Chousuke_	chouser: when in fact, once performance becomes an issue, you'll just add type hints? :P
15:14	icey	djork, I'm a c# guy; the key is to have him read up on macros
15:14	djork	yeah, I might even call myself a C# guy too :)
15:15	tomoj	hard to see why macros are useful if you've never used them before
15:15	djork	yeah
15:15	icey	i'm trying to remember when / how I saw the light
15:16	djork	functional + REPL + macros + namespaces + multimethods + lazy seqs are the power features to me
15:16	icey	oh, multimethods might be another good angle of attack
15:17	icey	it will be tough to woo him away when F# lands / is supported officially
15:18	chouser	Chousuke_: :-)
15:19	djork	ok... is "chousuke" "chouser's uke" or what?
15:19	Chousuke_	no :P
15:19	Bjering_	You know, you all probably know this, but what a newcomber really want to hear is how something great can be done with Clojure that is just too hard/expensive todo with another tool. Like how hearing that CCP used stackless-Python for EVE Online put many performance-huggers at rest.
15:19	Bjering_	...as it is _the_ largest single-shard-mmo server.
15:20	djork	clojure would need some beefy hardware for a mmo server (because of thread overhead)
15:20	djork	assuming you used something like an agent per player
15:20	hiredman	erm
15:20	hiredman	agents are not tied to threads
15:21	djork	pools
15:21	Bjering_	Well, ofc it doesnät have to be that. That was a kiler app for a light-weight-thread system like stackless-Python
15:21	djork	right?
15:23	hiredman	apparently paypal is too hard for me
15:23	djork	some days anything is too hard
15:24	hiredman	I think I haven't used my paypal account in a few years, and maybe they changed something out from under me
15:24	djork	today it's this offshore team's tangle of globals and inane constructs in some iPhone code
15:38	ambient	icey clojure on clr would be sweet
15:38	ambient	...i mean as functional as it is on jvm
15:41	ordnungswidrig	hi
15:42	ohpauleez	hello
15:46	KirinDave	ambient: That way we could have a slower, worse performing clojure on a runtime that is less open and less populated and run by a capricious company with competing products. Sounds good to me. ;)
15:46	KirinDave	ambient: And I say that from the perspective of a Microsoft employee. Even internally we get frustrated at the strange ways of the C#+CLR development timeline.
15:48	djork	hah wow
15:48	Bjering_	Ok, I am at page 141 in "programming clojure" and reading about the relational-algebra. I take it there are no lazy sets?
15:48	djork	yeah, I think the JDK is more well-defined than the CLR at this point, is that correct KirinDave
15:49	KirinDave	djork: I can't ascertain a technical definition from "well-defined".
15:49	KirinDave	djork: The main advantage of the CLR, in my estimation, is that you can write a search engine with C# but it's harder to do with Java. :D
15:50	djork	well-defined meaning how much effort it would take to implement a new and correct VM
15:50	djork	not effort
15:50	djork	but hassle
15:50	Chousuke	Bjering_: I'm not sure how you would implement a lazy set.
15:50	djork	in terms of getting it to be compatible
15:51	KirinDave	Wasn't the old clojure a compiler to java and C#?
15:52	stuartsierra_	KirinDave: yes, it was never released
15:58	hiredman	Chousuke: rule sets!
15:58	mrSpec	Hello
15:58	Bjering_	Chousuke: in a way any predicate is a lazy set I guess... but perhaps there is little value to be able to use the join syntax on those as there are other functions that does that.
15:58	hiredman	^-
15:59	KirinDave2	Does anyone here use emacs with swank-clojure?
16:00	jasapp	are there many people who don't?
16:00	KirinDave2	I'm having trouble getting swank-clojure-project to work.
16:01	KirinDave2	I try to root to my project root and it waits forever.
16:01	KirinDave2	I suspect from looking at what process is started that it's not adding the swank-clojure-1.0.jar
16:01	KirinDave2	Obviously I can put that in lib
16:01	KirinDave2	but it seems like this must be a bug.
16:01	KirinDave2	Any advice?
16:02	jkkramer	KirinDave2: is it printing a newline after you press RET when giving the project root path?
16:03	technomancy	KirinDave2: it's a change in behaviour; if you use swank-clojure you should treat it like a dependency, even if it's only a dev-time dependency.
16:03	KirinDave2	technomancy: So I should link it into lib?
16:03	technomancy	previous versions would automatically add it to the classpath, but they assumed that you had a git checkout of the swank-clojure project, which you can no longer assume
16:04	technomancy	yeah
16:05	KirinDave2	Well that fixed it. :)
16:05	ohpauleez	does anyone know if -?> is getting moved into core?
16:05	KirinDave2	technomancy: If you want to teach me I'll write up an epic dev howto.
16:05	KirinDave2	technomancy: I've gotta break into the community somehow, in any case. ;)
16:05	shonen	ah it is time for me to start on my road with clojure so that opauleez and i can battle to the tic tac toe death
16:06	KirinDave2	I've got a SimpleDateFormat that I want to use ONE of to parse dates in my library
16:07	KirinDave2	Is it better style to use a def, or better style to (let [formatter (…)] (defn …))
16:09	Kjellski	Is every datastructure in clojure build from the bit mapped hash trees? In order to get the nice branching factor?
16:09	hiredman	lists are just linked lists, I believe
16:09	rhickey	Kjellski: other than seqs, trees with high branching factors
16:10	rhickey	maps/sets are tries, vectors just trees
16:10	hiredman	didn't someone reimplement maps using something else?
16:10	chouser	sorted-maps are red black trees, right?
16:10	rhickey	right and sorteds are RB
16:11	technomancy	KirinDave2: I see def used more often than defn inside a let. you might also like defonce.
16:11	Kjellski	Thanks!
16:12	Kjellski	If I "alter" one thing in a list, this would cost linear time? Or how is the old version kept?
16:13	chouser	ooh, you don't know? get ready to experience magic...
16:13	ohpauleez	haha
16:14	Kjellski	chouser : C´mon, I am ready.
16:15	ohpauleez	Kjellski: this was in the IRC yesterday, I'm looking through the logs to find it for you
16:15	chouser	it's "essentially constant" time to change one item. log32
16:15	Kjellski	ohpauleez : Thanks a lot...
16:15	chouser	no locks, no mutation
16:15	hiredman	chouser: he asked about lists
16:16	chouser	oh
16:16	chouser	oh
16:16	chouser	:-(
16:16	Kjellski	chouser : =P
16:16	ohpauleez	yeah, if you're doing random access or lookup, you should use vectors
16:16	KirinDave2	Yeah, use vectors.
16:16	ohpauleez	unless you have to use a list
16:16	chouser	you can't alter lists except as you would a normal linked list.
16:16	KirinDave2	But evidently (count list) is O(1)
16:17	KirinDave2	As is (count my-vec)
16:17	KirinDave2	So there is that at least. :)
16:17	chouser	yeah, an immutable linked list that knows its size.
16:17	chouser	:-)
16:17	chouser	adding/removing from the head is constant time. which is neat, of corse, but hardly magical.
16:18	ohpauleez	Kjellski: check out: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html#Collections
16:21	Kjellski	ohpauleez: Thanks...
16:21	ohpauleez	Kjellski: np, totally welcome
16:29	kzar	So I've been watching some Clojure videos and I'm pretty convinced but I had one question before I spend too much time learning it. I would want to run web apps on a VM with 256meg of ram, is that possible? (I found Hunchentoot used around 50megs with SBCL and Python used maybe 10megs with web.py, I was wondering what to expect with Clojure)
16:30	ohpauleez	I don't know footprints, but you there is a lightweight web.py like project
16:31	ohpauleez	as well as more complete web framework project, like pylons or rails
16:31	kzar	ohpauleez: What's the lightweight one called?
16:32	Kjellski	Is there any other difference than spelling between "trees" and "tries"?
16:33	ohpauleez	There is Compojure (which looks awesome, but I haven't built anything with it) and webjure
16:34	kzar	ohpauleez: OK thanks
16:34	ohpauleez	kzar: I have one more link for you...
16:34	ohpauleez	here is a blog, written in compojure: http://github.com/briancarper/cow-blog/tree/master/blog/
16:36	Kjellski	Is there any other difference than spelling between "trees" and "tries"?
16:37	ohpauleez	a trie is a prefix tree
16:37	ohpauleez	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie
16:39	shonen	yessir a trie be prefix
16:41	arj	hi
16:41	arj	how exactly does one import a static class into clojure?
16:42	arj	a normal import seems to fail with class not found?
16:44	hiredman	well, then you must be doing it wrong
16:44	hiredman	so unless you show use what you are doing, it will be difficult to tell you what exactly you are doing wrong
16:44	arj	I'm trying to import JNotify
16:44	arj	that class is static
16:45	arohner	arj: is the class on your classpath?
16:45	arj	(import net.contentobjects.jnotify JNotify)
16:45	arj	fails
16:45	arj	but
16:45	arj	(import net.contentobjects.jnotify JNotifyListener)
16:45	arj	works fine
16:45	hiredman	(import '(net.contentobjects.jnotify JNotify))
16:45	arj	ah yeah sorry, that is what I was doing
16:45	arj	tried import-static from clojure-contrib, hence th change
16:46	arj	Could not initialize class net.contentobjects.jnotify.JNotify [Thrown class java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError]
16:46	arj	the class contains only static stuff
16:47	hiredman	do you have the java docs for JNotify?
16:47	arj	no but I have the source
16:48	hiredman	:(
16:48	arj	http://jnotify.sourceforge.net/
16:48	arj	there is some java examples
16:48	arj	*are
16:49	hiredman	it's possible the native part of jnotify is missing
16:49	chouser	arj: do you need the windows support?
16:49	arj	not really
16:49	arj	but I'd like to use Jnotify and not the Linux one, since I would like the dir recursion stuff
16:49	chouser	oh, ok.
16:50	arj	I did a add-classpath with the dir I have the .so file in
16:50	arj	maybe I need to do something else hiredman ?
16:50	hiredman	…
16:50	chouser	classpath doesn't help find .so files
16:50	hiredman	~add-classpath
16:50	clojurebot	add-classpath is bad, avoid it. I mean it!
16:50	kzar	Is there a good page to read for people just starting with Clojure but with Lisp 'n Python experience? I want to give it a shot
16:50	arj	hmm
16:51	technomancy	~peepcode
16:51	clojurebot	peepcode is a commercial screencast series; see the Clojure one at http://peepcode.com/products/functional-programming-with-clojure by technomancy
16:51	KirinDave2	I liked the peepcode.
16:51	KirinDave2	The project was cool
16:51	arj	how do I make my repl find the .so file?
16:51	KirinDave2	technomancy: Although how you'd implement taking between users seemed tough to me. :)
16:51	hiredman	~blip.tv
16:51	clojurebot	blip.tv is http://clojure.blip.tv/
16:52	technomancy	KirinDave2: I had that in a branch of mire, but I didn't have time to work it into the video.
16:52	KirinDave2	technomancy: Did you have to make an agent per user?
16:53	technomancy	no, I stored a map of usernames to outputstreams rather than just a set of users
16:53	technomancy	it didn't work smoothly with the prompt though.
16:53	KirinDave2	Yeah
17:07	arj	gagh system/load also doesn't seem to work
17:12	jasapp	is anyone familiar with discrete event simulation?
17:14	jasapp	I need to do some simulation, preferably with clojure, and I'm a bit unsure of the proper clojure approach
17:24	twbray	Am closing in on my (presumed, for the moment) memory leak... calling NIO to map regions of a file and stringify them. Never did like NIO much.
17:26	hiredman	huh
17:34	ohpauleez	jasapp: I have made a DES before
17:34	ohpauleez	in a lot of languages
17:34	ohpauleez	what's up?
17:34	jasapp	interesting
17:35	jasapp	what do you think the best approach in clojure would be?
17:35	jasapp	I'm having a hard time not thinking of explicit locking
17:36	ohpauleez	if it's single threaded, no need to lock. You can use a vector of vectors to represent a tree of events
17:36	jasapp	I was thinking of using multiple threads, but I don't know why
17:37	ohpauleez	then you push new events onto the tree and reorder it, and see if there is something to do
17:37	ohpauleez	that's typically how I do these things
17:37	jasapp	and a single threaded model doesn't suffer from any performance issues?
17:38	ohpauleez	is this for a college homework assignment or something mission critical
17:38	jasapp	heh
17:38	jasapp	well, no one will die if it breaks, but it's work related
17:40	jasapp	performance would be nice since I was considering using a genetic algorithm to find good parameters
17:40	ohpauleez	Sure, if you're just looking to use clojure a tree made up of a vector of vectors should do it
17:41	ohpauleez	and if you do things in a nice functional way, you should have no trouble
17:41	jasapp	excellent, thanks for the help
17:42	ohpauleez	totally, I'm trying to dig you up an example before I put up my own
17:42	jasapp	cool, ok
17:42	jasapp	the single threaded approach doesn't sound bad at all
17:42	shonen	your brain will thank you as well :-P
17:43	ohpauleez	nope, it's real easy, especially when you use a functional approach, it'll be a breeze
17:43	shonen	how many times have we all gone, "why is this variable changing!?! i hate you threading!!"
17:45	hiredman	shonen: er
17:45	hiredman	variable?
17:46	hiredman	surely you have mistaken #clojure for #imperative
17:46	shonen	haha oh yes yes quite i apologize
17:46	ohpauleez	jasapp: specifically you want to use a heap: http://bit.ly/37wiF7
17:46	ohpauleez	the first result has a PDF
17:47	ohpauleez	that walks through it
17:47	jasapp	thanks, I'll check it out
17:47	KirinDave	Heap sorting by event timestamp?
17:48	ohpauleez	more or less
17:48	kzar	Dumb question, I'm following that peepcode video and I was curious how to stop the server from the repl?
17:50	defn	'lo
17:51	ohpauleez	jasapp: one really dirty and quick way would be to use a sorted map where the keys were timestamps, and the values were the events
17:52	ohpauleez	ok, that's all I got, but the way to do it is with a heap. :)
17:54	jasapp	yeah, I was thinking I might just hack out a quick one with a sorted map
18:10	KirinDave	So I have like 0 expereince with clojure and I started writing a quick twitter library
18:10	KirinDave	For a project I'd like to do
18:11	ohpauleez	awesome, how's it going?
18:11	KirinDave	https://gist.github.com/e696d410b168ba507046
18:11	KirinDave	I feel like I am doing something wrong with prep-timeline-entry
18:11	KirinDave	And yes, i am aware that map is lazy, it's fine.
18:12	twbray	Um.... is "str" lazy? I kinda suspect it might be based on observed behavior.
18:12	KirinDave	twbray: There is an easy way to find out. :)
18:13	twbray	KirinDave: What would that be?
18:14	KirinDave	twbray: Write a (str) that has side effects
18:14	KirinDave	And capture that in a variable.
18:14	twbray	KirinDave: What a perfectly horrible perverted thing to think about.
18:14	twbray	Thanks, I'll try that.
18:14	ohpauleez	haha
18:14	KirinDave	(cliffnotes version: str is eager)
18:15	hiredman	str is definitely not lazy
18:15	KirinDave	ohpauleez: Is there anything I am doing obviously wrong?
18:15	twbray	because I'm keying a an array with (str foo bar) where bar is produced by (. substring ... ) out of a 50M Java string and it sorta looks like the string isn't being garbage collected
18:15	twbray	er a map I mean
18:16	ohpauleez	KirinDave: I think I might have spotted it, but I'm going to hit the REPL to try some things out
18:16	twbray	Anyhow, back to the coal-face... I'm closing in on the culprit one way or another
18:16	hiredman	twbray: string literals in clojure are .intern'ed, I believe
18:16	KirinDave	Woah
18:16	twbray	hiredman: Yes, they are. None of these are literals.
18:18	hiredman	twbray: have you seen http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do;jsessionid=99227e05664f737f96932f3ec3c0?bug_id=4513622
18:19	KirinDave	Huh
18:19	KirinDave	That there is a nasty bug.
18:19	twbray	hiredman: Yeah, I knew that, but I'm taking the substring and making a bigger string with (str ... ); now if str were lazy, I'd have an explanation. But anyhow, I'll know what's going on by end-of-day
18:20	ohpauleez	KirinDave: I'm new to Clojure, this is new to me: [{user :user, created-at :created_at :as entry}]
18:20	ohpauleez	if that is indeed a hash map
18:20	KirinDave	ohpauleez: That's a destructing bind on a map.
18:20	ohpauleez	shouldn't it be :key value, etc
18:21	ohpauleez	given the :as in the arg list I figured it was destructuring, but that's the correct form?
18:21	KirinDave	ohpauleez: Clojure doesn't seem to feel that way: http://idisk.me.com/dfayram/Public/Pictures/Skitch/Terminal_%E2%80%94_java_%E2%80%94_Homebrew_%E2%80%94_ttys002_%E2%80%94_80%C3%9724-20091118-152059.png
18:22	KirinDave	dysinger: Fancy meeting you here.
18:22	dysinger	I'm usually always here :)
18:22	ohpauleez	ah, awesome
18:22	dysinger	blending the erlang and clojure into a good golash !
18:22	ohpauleez	hmm, let me look some more
18:22	KirinDave	dysinger: My next project is a better jinterface binding for clojure.
18:23	dysinger	sweet KirinDave we should team up - I did that over the weekend !
18:23	the-kenny	Is there a way to do a (binding) with dynamic scopt which gets inherited to threads started by inside this binding?
18:23	dysinger	KirinDave: not to say I have anything finished but played with it.
18:23	KirinDave	dysinger: Is it on github?
18:23	dysinger	no not yet
18:24	hiredman	the-kenny: there is a new construct, bound-fn, which will capture dynamic bindings
18:24	KirinDave	dysinger: It seems like a multi-method could make it very easy to auto-convert clojure primitives to the Erlang primitives.
18:24	dysinger	KirinDave there is some public domain clojure code on the clojure list @ goog groups
18:24	the-kenny	hiredman: Is this in the "new" branch?
18:24	dysinger	KirinDave: exactly
18:24	ohpauleez	KirinDave: what is happening when you run it. That looks fine to me
18:24	KirinDave	dysinger: And a language with vectors, lists, maps, and symbols makes it way easier.
18:24	KirinDave	ohpauleez: Oh it's not broken
18:24	the-kenny	hiredman: And... is it stable enough?
18:24	dysinger	that's what the google groups code looks like KirinDave
18:24	hiredman	tehseel no idea
18:24	hiredman	er
18:25	hiredman	the-kenny: no idea
18:25	ohpauleez	ohh, that looks fine to me
18:25	KirinDave	ohpauleez: I was hoping for style tips, particularly with the prep-timeline-entry
18:25	hiredman	I've never bothered with it, since I understand the difference between dynamic and lexical scope, and avoid dynamic scope
18:26	the-kenny	hm... it's in "fbacc4a"
18:26	KirinDave	hiredman: It makes sense for things like io streams. It was just overused in the past. :)
18:26	dysinger	KirinDave: http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/erlang+(2).clj?gda=nPnuyEQAAAB9TgGpbzbMg0BCq3i8IqXnF8SIL0JIfoYuHsuFZ6eabNDNU7UYDrd2uE4tSk0x5Y5V6u9SiETdg0Q2ffAyHU-dzc4BZkLnSFWX59nr5BxGqA
18:26	KirinDave	hiredman: Fear it not
18:26	hiredman	KirinDave: I don't fear it
18:26	hiredman	I just have no need of it
18:26	hiredman	and it annoys me that everone must write their database api to use it
18:27	KirinDave	So for something like clojure.contrib.json.read, what do you recommend is a better solution?
18:28	the-kenny	hiredman: That's exactly my problem :) I have a setup with some thread pools and one or two agents... and I'm using clojure-couchdb, which uses a binding named server.
18:28	hiredman	grrr
18:28	the-kenny	I hacked a macro together, but it really bloats the code..
18:28	hiredman	the-kenny: wrap the api with functions that take a server argument
18:29	hiredman	or write an email to the author complaining
18:29	KirinDave	Well what's the correct solution?
18:29	dysinger	KirinDave: the thing I am working on is clojure + interface (client) \| erlang + ports + clojure + jinterface (server)
18:29	dysinger	s/interface/jinterface
18:29	dysinger	(on the side for fun)
18:29	KirinDave	dysinger: You know exactly why I'd like to get java talking over a local erlang port. ;)
18:29	dysinger	:)
18:30	KirinDave	I can't show you the code yet, but the next big katamari thing is nodes that can handle multiple connections at once.
18:30	dysinger	sweet
18:30	KirinDave	And removing the insistence on port-based nodes.
18:30	dysinger	cool
18:30	KirinDave	Well, that'll make katamari able to work very well with hadoop.
18:31	KirinDave	Which I think will be a big part of the future of katamari...
18:31	the-kenny	hiredman: hm.. sounds a bit annoying. There is also a problem with the http-library clojure-couchdb uses.. I have to send an authentication-header to properly identify to the database server, and clojure-couchdb provides no api to access the underlying http-calls... I hacked together a solution to modify the standard-headers field of the http-client :D
18:31	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/hiredman/triples.clj <-- all the functions take a db parameter
18:31	dysinger	I like the idea - better than hadoop's IO based mappers
18:32	jasapp	hiredman: did you ever use clsql for common lisp?
18:32	KirinDave	hiredman: Man that is one HELL of a defmethod criterion.
18:33	hiredman	jasapp: nope
18:34	hiredman	the-kenny: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/480153/how-to-modify-the-header-of-a-httpurlconnection
18:34	hiredman	KirinDave: :)
18:34	hiredman	I'm sure I could have just written out a table and reduced it to a few cases
18:34	hiredman	but I just can't be bothered
18:35	the-kenny	hiredman: I know how to do this, but I don't have any access to the instance of HttpUrlConnection clojure-couchdb uses :(
18:35	hiredman	:\|
18:36	hiredman	sounds like you need to reach out to the author
18:36	hiredman	danlarkin?
18:36	the-kenny	Yes
18:36	the-kenny	He said some time ago that he's really busy
18:37	the-kenny	But I have a fork of it in my local repository.
18:38	the-kenny	I think I'll just merge the http-url to the server with the db-parameter...
18:38	the-kenny	The first time I tried to use the library, I tried exactly that because there was no documentation
18:38	dysinger	I have rubbed the genie lamp
18:39	dysinger	danlarkin will be here in a sec :)
18:39	the-kenny	Wow, where did you get that lamp? :)
18:39	hiredman	almost like /summon still worked
18:40	dysinger	(we work together)
18:40	danlarkin	the-kenny: yeah I saw you have patches for me
18:41	danlarkin	I just haven't gotten around to reviewing or applying them :(
18:42	the-kenny	danlarkin: No problem :) I didn't want to rush you
18:44	danlarkin	the-kenny: maybe I'll give you commit access to my repo and "solve" the problem that way :)
18:44	danlarkin	I'm not dealing with couchdb too much at the moment
18:45	the-kenny	danlarkin: Oh, I'm happy with my fork. I don't want to mess things up in your repository
18:53	the-kenny	Ah, I think I've found a clean way to deal with the authentication problem
18:57	qed	every time i think i understand loop/recur i just sit there and scratch my head -- im trying to take a vector [1 2 3 4 5], and conj the product of [1 2 3], [2 3 4], [3 4 5] onto a vector
18:58	qed	errr (* 1 2 3), (* 2 3 4), etc.
18:59	the-kenny	Awesome :) java.net.Authenticator is just perfect
19:01	jweiss	anyone here use vimclojure? i'm trying to figure out why when i run this in its repl, (do (println "hi") (Thread/sleep 2000) (println "there")) - that nothing is printed until after the sleep, then it prints everything.
19:01	qed	jweiss: let me apologize in advance for saying this, but: learn emacs
19:02	qed	repls in vim == ugly hacks
19:03	jweiss	qed: i'm not going to learn emacs just to use clojure
19:03	defmacro	jweiss: amen
19:04	the-kenny	jweiss: But emacs is the nonplusultra for lisp-editing
19:04	the-kenny	I learned it just for CommonLisp and I'll never go back
19:04	qed	i learned emacs to use clojure
19:05	qed	it took about 1 week of pain, but now id never go back
19:05	qed	</editor wars>
19:05	jweiss	meh
19:05	the-kenny	qed: I felt no pain. I had a feeling of freedom after one or two years with vim
19:06	qed	i use vim still for really quick and dirty stuff if i dont have an emacs open already
19:06	defmacro	emacs is all pain to me, <8 vim, but that's just me
19:06	fanatico	there is always viper-mode.
19:06	qed	defmacro: the big thing for me was getting emacs configured to fit my tastes
19:06	qed	if you dont like emacs, you can change every damn thing you dont like
19:07	fanatico	emulates the vi key bindings in emacs.
19:07	qed	evaluating elisp inside your buffer is pretty sweet
19:07	defmacro	qed: very very true, and I never got it configured to suit me. but i really love the modal editing theme in vim, the emacs commands didn't make sense to me
19:08	qed	defmacro: yeah they're really weird at first, but its been about a month since i started with emacs, and im flying around now
19:08	qed	it's a little pain, big gain, IMO
19:08	defmacro	qed: emacs also have me more hand pain than vim, which is a serious thing fo rme
19:08	the-kenny	Emacs isn't complicated.. it's much easier to understand the first time than vim, in my opinion
19:08	qed	and this brings us to our next discussion: keybindings and keyboard choice
19:09	defmacro	qed: kinesis contour, with customized mappings for keys to load balance across my hands and good fingers left
19:09	qed	map ctrl to caps lock
19:09	qed	defmacro: booya, nice
19:09	qed	i love the kinesis advantage pro
19:09	qed	but ive been using my happy hacking keyboard almost exclusively at work
19:10	qed	not as good for my hands, but very functional still
19:10	defmacro	yeah, i got three of the kinesis, for every workstation. i cannot type on anything else, making my macbook useless
19:10	qed	the keyswitches on the HHK make it friggen butter
19:10	qed	Topre capacitive switches
19:12	jweiss	i suppose it's not wasted
19:12	jweiss	none of the systems i use at work have emacs by default
19:12	jweiss	but they all have vi/vim
19:13	the-kenny	jweiss: It's possible to use vim and emacs.
19:13	defmacro	working on using vim's ruby support to extend the editor, heh
19:13	jweiss	the-kenny: yeah, but having to learn more than one arcane editor kinda sucks. why can't one of them be enough
19:15	defmacro	jweiss: do you want/need to use slime? cause vim doesn't have anything close to that awesomeness, that's why one can't be enough
19:15	qed	^^
19:15	the-kenny	Yes, slime and org-mode are the most awesome pieces of software for emacs.
19:16	jweiss	defmacro: what specifically about vim makes it worse? just that no one wrote something like slime for it?
19:16	defn	can you hang out in #clojure while you're coding clojure in another buffer and using slime/swank-clojure repl in another buffer inside your editor?
19:16	jweiss	seems like of arbitrary
19:16	defn	jweiss: no it's the base construction of emacs
19:17	defn	thats why you can code something like slime for it
19:17	defn	vim "REPL"s are hacks
19:17	defmacro	jweiss: have someone show you slime in person, it blew me away. not enough to make me switch to emacs, tho ;p
19:17	jweiss	well, back in college i hated emacs, but then again, back then i found java confusing.
19:17	jweiss	so maybe it's worth another look
19:17	the-kenny	vim can't execute other processes on a clean way.. I think that's the biggest problem
19:18	defmacro	also, vimscript is not compariable to elisp for extending the editor
19:19	defn	jweiss: i know im evangelizing a bit here, BUT-- I tried to learn emacs like 4 times, always losing my will power and heading back to vim. This last time I said enough is enough, aliased vim, vi, etc. to emacs -nw, and struggled like crazy to do some of the most basic stuff imaginable for the first two weeks
19:20	defn	but in the end, you will be a more efficient programmer if you take the time to get to know emacs, and that's probably going to sound like im trolling or something, but honestly, i firmly believe it to be the truth
19:20	defn	the best software devs ive met in my life seemed to all have one thing in common: emacs
19:20	jweiss	ok, ok, it's not like vim is a shining example of clarity either, so my only reason not to go to emacs is inertia
19:21	defmacro	i should hire an emacs expert for a day to customize my setup, i just can't get started enough
19:21	fanatico	jweiss: once again, I gotta recommend viper-mode. Makes the transition much easier.
19:21	technomancy	defmacro: coughpeepcodecough
19:21	defn	defmacro: the whole setup process involves a lot of pain
19:21	technomancy	</shameless-promo>
19:21	defn	technomancy's screencast on peepcode is good
19:22	defmacro	technomancy: i bought that, but i want ultra aweosme customization and i want it in a day ;p
19:22	defn	defmacro: i know where you're coming from exactly
19:22	duncanm	twbray: congrats congrats!
19:22	defmacro	once i get it the way i like, oh, i'll be 100% into emacs, but until then, i can barely stand 20 mins figuruing this and that
19:22	technomancy	defmacro: ah, that will have to wait until my career-change to a traveling lisp mendicant then.
19:22	defn	my advice is this: open up technomancy's elpa-to-submit in his starter-kit, and pick the .el files you want in your setup, install elpa, make your own init.el, and slowly start cobbling your setup together
19:23	jweiss	i'm not going to customize anything. i hate that i can't do anything on any machine but my own. i always use basically stock setup
19:23	defn	IMO you absolutely cannot just use a starter kit out of the box and be happy
19:23	defn	you're better off starting from scratch and adding stuff as needed
19:23	defmacro	defn: tried that, i'm just too dumb. i'll keep trying tho, seriously i think a day with an emacs guy clarifying my misconcpetions about emacs setup is the way to go
19:24	technomancy	defmacro: nothing compares to looking over the shoulder of someone who's immersed in it.
19:24	defmacro	defn: yeah, i agree
19:24	technomancy	defmacro: are you the guy behind defmacro.org?
19:24	defmacro	technomancy: all textmate and vimmers at work, hehehe
19:24	defmacro	technomancy: no, new nick
19:25	arj	I have a problem with the slime repl. I'm registering callback handlers in jnotify but I don't get any messages it seems when in slime, but if I start up a repl outside of emacs it works. Any ideas?
19:25	defmacro	actually, i've stopped playing with clojure cause coding with vim seems less than natural, tho for ruby it's fine
19:26	Chousuke	jweiss: you could have your config on github or something and then just clone it onto machines (or download a tarball)
19:27	technomancy	dotfiles on github is a must, no matter what your editor is
19:27	jweiss	hm that's a good idea
19:29	kzar	so loop in clojure seems to be completely different to loop in CL, is there something like common lisp's loop?
19:29	the-kenny	kzar: Loop is propably the ugliest and the most awesome thing at once - But I don't like it :)
19:30	the-kenny	Oh and no, there isn't something like cl's loop in clojure.
19:30	Chousuke	I think I saw at least a partial implementation of cl loop somewhere. :/
19:30	kzar	the-kenny: So supposing you need to loop over a list, grabbing the first 3 items each time what would be the clojure way to do that/
19:31	Chousuke	(map f (partition 3 list))?
19:31	the-kenny	kzar: (map fn (partition 3 list) or so
19:31	Chousuke	explicit loops are not idiomatic.
19:31	defn	oh boy
19:31	defn	im having a hard time understanding loop/recur too
19:31	defn	it still is making no sense to me :\
19:32	the-kenny	defn: Try not to use it :)
19:32	defn	im working on it the-kenny ! :)
19:32	Chousuke	defn: it's kind of like a recursive function
19:32	defn	right now i have this vector [1 2 3 4 5], and i want to conj (* 1 2 3), (* 2 3 4), etc. onto a list
19:33	Chousuke	only: there is no function object and primitives are supported.
19:33	defn	i put the conj part into my (recur ()), and inc my counter, but then i have 2 args where it expects 1
19:33	defn	it's unnerving
19:33	Chousuke	(map (partial apply *) (partition 3 1 [1 2 3 4 5]))
19:33	Chousuke	hmm
19:33	Chousuke	,(map (partial apply *) (partition 3 1 [1 2 3 4 5]))
19:33	clojurebot	(6 24 60)
19:34	defn	close
19:34	kzar	the-kenny / Chousuke: With the example list of [1 2 3 4 5 6] I need to run fn on [1 2 3], [2 3 4], [3 4 5], [4 5 6]. I think that example would run it on [1 2 3] [4 5 6]
19:34	defn	kzar: #11 in projecteuler, eh?
19:34	kzar	defn: What's projecteuler?
19:34	Chousuke	kzar: partition supports a step.
19:34	Chousuke	,(map (partial apply *) (partition 3 1 [1 2 3 4 5 6]))
19:34	clojurebot	(6 24 60 120)
19:35	defn	oh, nvm, i have the exact same question kzar -- which is weird
19:35	the-kenny	,(partition 3 1 [1 2 3 4 5 6])
19:35	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6))
19:35	kzar	Cool thanks
19:37	defn	whoa dude, that's awesome
19:47	defn	i was going about solving that problem the complete wrong way
19:50	defn	,(partition 1 [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
19:50	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
19:50	defn	,(partition 1 [[1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3]])
19:50	clojurebot	(([1 2 3]) ([1 2 3]) ([1 2 3]))
19:51	defn	,(partition 2 1 [[1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3]])
19:51	clojurebot	(([1 2 3] [1 2 3]) ([1 2 3] [1 2 3]))
19:51	Chousuke	what are you trying to accomplish?
19:51	Chousuke	partition takes a single sequence and divides it.
19:52	defn	i have this vector of vectors, it amounts to a 20x20 grid, so now that i have all of the products for the horizontal combinations
19:52	defn	i need to find the vertical combinations, and finally the diagonal combinations
19:53	defn	my structure looks like [[1..20] [1..20]...[1..20]]
19:54	KirinDave	Why did you choose to make it that way?
19:54	defn	how would you do it?
19:54	Chousuke	well the vertical combinations are easy I think
19:55	Chousuke	,(apply map + [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
19:55	clojurebot	(12 15 18)
19:56	KirinDave	defn: Well, I'd make it a flat array
19:56	KirinDave	defn: And then use partition to make rows and columns as separate views.
19:56	defn	yeah i originally planned on doing just that
19:58	_mst	a nice thing about the nested vectors approach is you can get out the diagonals using get-in...
19:58	_mst	possibly a bit harder with a flat vector?
19:58	defn	Chousuke: your solution works, but if i have [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9] [10 11 12]], i need to get (* 1 4 7), (* 4 7 10), etc.
19:58	KirinDave	I dunno if it'd be any harder.
19:58	defn	harder to think about with a flat vector
19:58	defn	for diagonals i like the nested vectors
19:59	KirinDave	Um, just write a function to translate from [x,y] -> [n]
19:59	defn	like i said "i like the nested vectors"
19:59	KirinDave	That's fine. I was just pointing out that the diagonals are not significantly easier to compute. :)
20:00	defn	sure sure
20:00	defn	im heading home, see you guys later
20:00	defn	thanks for the help all
20:03	michaeljaaka	hi
20:03	michaeljaaka	I'm getting Caused by: java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'ds.commons/invoke-me
20:03	michaeljaaka	at clojure.lang.Compiler.analyzeSymbol(Compiler.java:4610)
20:03	michaeljaaka	at clojure.lang.Compiler.analyze(Compiler.java:4307)
20:03	michaeljaaka	any idea what causes that?
20:03	michaeljaaka	anyone got such problem?
20:08	fanatico	Just like it says, you're trying to treat a macro like a value.
20:09	KirinDave2	michaeljaaka: What expression involving invoke-me signals that error?
20:10	michaeljaaka	(defn some[d] invoke-me d rest of args.. )
20:10	KirinDave2	Maybe you meant
20:10	KirinDave2	(defn some [d] (invoke-me d …))
20:10	KirinDave2	?
20:10	michaeljaaka	then i get EOF
20:11	KirinDave2	Um
20:11	KirinDave2	I suspect that there is a simple syntax error
20:11	michaeljaaka	in macro?
20:11	michaeljaaka	Caused by: java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
20:11	michaeljaaka	at clojure.lang.LispReader.readDelimitedList(LispReader.java:1003)
20:11	michaeljaaka	at clojure.lang.LispReader$ListReader.invoke(LispReader.java:860)
20:11	michaeljaaka	at clojure.lang.LispReader.readDelimitedList(LispReader.java:1011)
20:11	michaeljaaka	when typed as you propsed
20:12	KirinDave2	What is the actual statement you typed?
20:12	KirinDave2	I'm pretty sure it's impossible to make a macro that makes unbalanced parens.
20:12	duncanm	la la la
20:14	arj	is there any way I can using ns and import, import something java into the namespace under a different name?
20:15	fanatico	arj: Don't think so. Clojure and Java are in a different namespaces.
20:15	michaeljaaka	http://pastebin.com/d46062ac6
20:15	michaeljaaka	here is an actual code
20:16	michaeljaaka	that don't want to compile
20:16	arj	fanatico: ok, it's just that if I import something I can't create my own e.g. structs with the same name as one I imported, it's a bit annoying
20:16	KirinDave2	michaeljaaka: One moment.
20:16	fanatico	michaeljaaka: http://pastebin.com/mc7209be
20:17	duncanm	michaeljaaka: why did you write that as a macro?
20:17	michaeljaaka	because iface is an java interface name
20:17	michaeljaaka	and when written as fun iface won't be resolved
20:18	fanatico	arj: yeah. If you're not using the java class/method that conflicts, you could exclude it from the import, or you could refer to the clojure name using the full namespace.
20:18	michaeljaaka	fanatico: I get EOF when I write "act" like this
20:19	fanatico	michaeljaaka: did you balance the parens for let?
20:19	michaeljaaka	yes
20:19	KirinDave2	michaeljaaka: http://gist.github.com/238447
20:19	KirinDave2	michaeljaaka: That does not eof for me.
20:19	KirinDave2	And appears to match your intent
20:19	KirinDave2	What editor are you using?
20:19	michaeljaaka	enclojure
20:20	KirinDave2	Because lisps really demand an editor.
20:20	arj	sadly I am importing something important that conflicts. But it doesn't seem like I*m able to define a new struct with the same name as some java class I imported
20:20	arj	would be cool with a import bla as foo
20:20	KirinDave2	I'd highly recommend emacs + clojure-mode + paredit
20:20	michaeljaaka	this is an editor for netbeans
20:20	michaeljaaka	ok
20:20	KirinDave2	Anyways, I suspect you simply had unbalanced parens.
20:20	michaeljaaka	I will try compile it with emacs
20:21	KirinDave2	Just make sure your quotes are right
20:21	KirinDave2	Remember, invoke-rmi _must_ be immediately prefaced by an open-paren to work.
20:21	arj	does anyone know why slime eats some of the output that the running code produces? It seems like messages coming out-of-band are not displayed at all?
20:22	KirinDave2	"out of band"?
20:23	the-kenny	I think he means from a different thread or so.
20:23	the-kenny	arj: If so, you can find them in the inferior-lisp buffer.
20:24	michaeljaaka	ok
20:24	arj	the-kenny: ah!
20:24	duncanm	arj: yeah, it's a little confusing, but out and err are not the same as System.out and System.err
20:24	arj	thanks a lot
20:24	michaeljaaka	I have looked at code and truly there were missing two closing parens
20:24	michaeljaaka	thanks a lot!
20:24	arj	very newb slime question I guess :D
20:24	michaeljaaka	btw why pastebin is lame?
20:25	KirinDave2	arj: I'd use a C-x 3 in your slime repl, then swap one to the inferior lisp buffer.
20:25	KirinDave2	That is what I do
20:25	duncanm	michaeljaaka: i don't understand your answer
20:26	KirinDave2	arj: You end up like so : http://idisk.me.com/dfayram/Public/Pictures/Skitch/%2Ainferior-lisp%2A-20091118-172516.png
20:26	michaeljaaka	; Rule #1, fuck pastebin.
20:26	michaeljaaka	this is from http://gist.github.com/238447#file_gistfile1.txt
20:26	KirinDave2	michaeljaaka: Because it is fairly ugly and hard to read. gist is nice because it puts the code way out in front, design wise
20:26	KirinDave2	I mean, compare those two pages.
20:26	arj	KirinDave2: yeah that's pretty cool, thanks agian
20:27	KirinDave2	michaeljaaka: You can also checkout and manipualte whole pastes as a git repo, which can be very handy sometimes in larger pastes. And also because mojombo, defunkt and the crew are Folks Who Know What Salsa Should Taste Like.
20:28	michaeljaaka	:)
20:28	michaeljaaka	ok
20:28	michaeljaaka	now I know gist, paste.lisp.org and pastebin
20:29	hiredman	http://delicious.com/clojurebot/pastbin
20:29	michaeljaaka	:)
20:30	the-kenny	clojurebot has a delicious integration? Nice idea :)
20:31	hiredman	:)
20:53	churib	when happens destructuring? at read time?
20:54	chouser	runtime
20:55	churib	okay, thanks
20:55	hiredman	well, it's a macro
20:56	hiredman	it's expanded at macro expand time, but the code it expands to is run at runtime
21:13	polypus	is this (eval `(fn ~arg-lst ~expr)) the recommended way of building a function at run time when one has a param list and expression?
21:15	duncanm	polypus: or you could use a macro
21:17	duncanm	chouser: do you understand what michaeljaaka said about his macro? i'm not completely familiar with how identifiers are resolved in Clojure macros (vs. Scheme macros), but what he said didn't make sense to me
21:26	fanatico	duncanm: outside of the (.) special form, java methods don't resolve, so invoke-rmi has to be a macro.
21:34	jweiss	ok, so i was convinced this evening to switch to emacs+slime (from vim-clojure). it was pretty easy to set up. i still have no clue how to use emacs, but at least the REPL works. 2 questions. how to set classpath, and how to change the color scheme?
21:34	jweiss	i saw via google a way to set classpath in the .emacs, but apparently you have to restart emacs anytime that changes. there must be an easier way?
21:36	fanatico	jweiss: C-x C-e evals the last sexp (both in elisp and clojure), so you can update the variable that way. You still may have to restart slime.
21:38	jweiss	wow, in emacs, jumping to line 99 is "ESC-X goto-line <enter> 99" ? that sucks
21:39	jweiss	i'm about to fall back on viper mode
21:39	_mst	always seemed strange that it was never bound to a key
21:39	_mst	but you can bind it to a key yourself! :)
21:39	jweiss	_mst: all in due time, first i have to figure out how to do basic stuff
21:40	jweiss	but i can see it'll be better than vi,someday
21:40	_mst	ah right :) in my ~/.emacs I have: (define-key global-map (kbd "C-c g") 'goto-line)
21:40	hiredman	pfft
21:40	jweiss	i never knew the .emacs file was lisp. that is pretty cool
21:41	dnolen	_mst: I used (meta-n), simpler, I had multiple groups of keys I used often.
21:41	dnolen	also a fan of binding function keys to start REPL, magit, shell, etc.
21:42	_mst	ah yep. I'm not sure what my meta-n is off the top of my head, but I can assure you it's bound to something somewhere :)
21:43	dnolen	I hate multiple groups of keys I mean for common commands
22:12	polypus	duncanm: thanks but how? this don't work (defmacro template-function [arg-lst expr] `(fn ~arg-lst ~expr))
22:33	kzar	What's the easiest way to get the first 3 values of a sequence?
22:35	fanatico	,(take 3 '(1 2 3 4 5))
22:35	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
22:36	kzar	fanatico: ah sweet
22:36	kzar	thanks
22:36	fanatico	np
22:41	kzar	fanatico: Is there something to give the rest after the first 3?
22:42	fanatico	,(drop 3 '(1 2 3 4 5))
22:42	clojurebot	(4 5)
22:44	kzar	tah :)
22:46	kzar	(Although it would be kind of odd for a Lisp, maybe first and next should have an optional number parameter. It would make sense and avoid drop and take being needed)
22:47	chouser	,(split-at 3 (range 5))
22:47	clojurebot	[(0 1 2) (3 4)]
23:13	kzar	Is the closest to "for i in [1 2 3 4 5] ..." (map (fn [i] ...) [1 2 3 4 5] ?
23:14	chouser	,(for [i [1 2 3 4 5]] (* i 2))
23:14	clojurebot	(2 4 6 8 10)
23:17	chouser	kzar: note that both 'map' and 'for' return lazy seqs -- neither is an imperative loop like python's 'for'
23:19	kzar	whoops I didn't realise there was a for. Yea I watched some of the videos that mentioned about lazieness, it seems like a brilliant idea that's going to fuck me over one day soon heh
23:22	defn	'lo
23:23	kzar	laziness* damn flyspell :(
23:30	chouser	kzar: heh, could be.
23:31	chouser	kzar: usually it only causes me trouble when I'm trying to be too clever -- lazily consuming UI events or lines from an open file or something.
23:31	defn	how do you use get-in?
23:31	defn	i have a structure like [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]
23:32	_ato	,(get-in [0 0] [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
23:32	clojurebot	nil
23:32	_ato	hmm
23:32	tomoj	backwards
23:32	tomoj	,(get-in [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]] [0 0])
23:32	clojurebot	1
23:32	_ato	ah right
23:32	_ato	of course
23:33	tomoj	,(get-in [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]] [1 1])
23:33	clojurebot	5
23:33	defn	ah cool
23:33	defn	thanks
23:34	_ato	heheh I rely on slime's argument hints in the minibuffer too much... hmm... I wonder if I can get it to do it with IRC too. ;-)
23:35	defn	i dont understand the get-in "documentation", the whole m keys thing
23:36	_ato	,(doc get-in)
23:36	clojurebot	"([m ks]); returns the value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys"
23:37	_ato	m means map (an associative structure)
23:37	_ato	,(get-in {:foo {:bar 2}} [:foo :bar])
23:37	clojurebot	2
23:38	_ato	ks is the keys in the nested maps that get to the value you want
23:38	_ato	a vector can be thought of as a map between indices and values
23:38	defn	sure i mean i understand the structure
23:39	defn	but ive thought of [0 0] as being a sequence of keys
23:39	defn	never thought of*
23:40	defn	nevermind it all makes sense now
23:41	defn	ive successfully embaressed myself again
23:41	defn	no need to worry
23:46	fanatico	why does `get-in` take [m ks] instead of [m keys*]?
23:47	fanatico	are there any guidelines about when to write one style over the other?
23:54	fanatico	,(defn my-get-in [x & args] (if (seq args) (recur (get x (first args)) (rest args)) x))
23:54	clojurebot	DENIED
23:55	fanatico	,((fn [x & args] (if (seq args) (recur (get x (first args)) (rest args)) x)) [[1 2 3] [4 5]] 0 1)
23:55	clojurebot	2