#clojure – 2009-11-06

2009-11-06

01:30	Drakeson`	just thought you might want to know, slime (from git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git) breaks in Oct 31. The last commit on Oct 30 seems to be fine.
02:38	qed	We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time; premature optimization is the root of all evil.
02:38	qed	~ Donald Ervin Knuth
02:38	clojurebot	I don't understand.
02:47	aatifh	Ping
02:48	aatifh	How do i bind multiple values for test in the if-let macro?
02:50	hiredman	you don't
02:50	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
02:50	clojurebot	PONG!
02:50	hiredman	hmm
02:52	aatifh	sure? The doc says (if-let bindings then else & oldform)
02:53	hiredman	shrug
02:53	hiredman	,(if-let [a nil b nil] :then :else)
02:53	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: if-let requires exactly 2 forms in binding vector
02:55	aatifh	clojurebot, right
03:55	ordnungs`	knock knock?
04:29	stephenj	(+ 1 1)
04:29	clojurebot	2
04:30	tomoj	why is she doing that???
04:30	tomoj	(map + [1 2] [3 4])
04:30	tomoj	(+ 3 4)
04:30	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
04:31	tomoj	hrmm
04:31	tomoj	(+ 1 3.1)
04:32	tomoj	(+ 1 3)
04:32	clojurebot	4
04:32	tomoj	(+ 1 4)
04:32	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
04:32	tomoj	,(+ 1 +)
04:32	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$_PLUS___4443 cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
04:32	tomoj	,(+ 1 4)
04:32	clojurebot	5
04:32	tomoj	ach ja
04:33	morphling	tomoj: are you expecting (4 6)?
04:33	morphling	try (map #'+ [1 2] [3 4])
04:33	tomoj	uh
04:33	hiredman	morphling: +
04:33	tomoj	,(map + [1 2] [3 4])
04:33	clojurebot	(4 6)
04:33	tomoj	just trying to figure out what clojurebot was doing
04:34	tomoj	(* 1 2)
04:34	opqdonut	morphling: thinking common lisp?-)
04:34	clojurebot	2
04:34	tomoj	seems it does elementary math upto 4 like the i-ching calculator
04:34	hiredman	that is preposterous
04:35	hiredman	only towel toting hickhickers use i-ching calculators
04:37	tomoj	(if (> out 4) "suffusion of yellow" out)
04:38	tomoj	:P
04:39	tomoj	I would like to understand clojurebot's guts someday
04:39	tomoj	writing a bot in clojure sounds fun
04:39	hiredman	weird is I swear I removed that three or four times, but somehow while git merging it gets added back in
04:40	hiredman	tomoj: it would help if I wrote docstrings I suppose
04:41	tomoj	you can't escape the interconnectedness of things, I suppose
04:42	ordnungswidrig	gaa, clojure can be unreadable (comp #(some #{%} [1 2 3]) :params :some)
04:43	tomoj	hmm
04:45	hiredman	(some #(-> % :some :params list set) [1 2 3])
04:45	hiredman	:D
04:46	hiredman	#(-> % :some :params list set (some [1 2 3]))
04:46	ordnungswidrig	list set ?
04:46	hiredman	set takes a seq/collection
04:46	hiredman	:/
04:46	ordnungswidrig	why is this needed here?
04:47	tomoj	is (some #{foo} [bar baz]) the idiomatic way to see if a vector contains some value?
04:47	hiredman	in your example you put something in a set
04:47	hiredman	#{%}
04:47	hiredman	(-> % list set) is equivilent
04:47	ordnungswidrig	tomoj: yes, that's the idiom I used
04:48	hiredman	,#{:a}
04:48	clojurebot	#{:a}
04:48	ordnungswidrig	macroexpand?
04:48	hiredman	,(-> :a set)
04:48	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Keyword
04:48	ordnungswidrig	brb
04:48	hiredman	,(-> :a list set)
04:48	clojurebot	#{:a}
04:49	ordnungswidrig	re
04:49	hiredman	,(-> :a ((partial conj #{})))
04:49	clojurebot	#{:a}
04:50	hiredman	anyway, I don't believe there is a function like list for sets
04:50	tomoj	I have sometimes felt there should be a sort of inverse to apply
04:51	ordnungswidrig	tomoj: which would do what?
04:51	tomoj	so that (foo set 1 2) would give #{1 2} where foo is this thing
04:51	hiredman	ah!
04:51	hiredman	#(-> % :some :params sorted-set (some [1 2 3]))
04:52	hiredman	,(-> :a sorted-set)
04:52	clojurebot	#{:a}
04:52	tomoj	well that is peculiar
04:52	hiredman	excellent
04:52	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: now please make it a higher order function in [1 2 3] :-)
04:52	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: ((foo [1 2 3]) 1) -> true
04:53	tomoj	hmm
04:53	tomoj	,((set [1 2 3]) 1)
04:53	clojurebot	1
04:53	tomoj	,((set [1 2 3]) 4)
04:53	clojurebot	nil
04:54	hiredman	(fn [x] #(-> x :some :params sorted-set (some %)))
05:11	Chousuke	,(hash-set 1 2 3)
05:11	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
05:11	Chousuke	:P
05:19	tomoj	Chousuke: aha
05:19	tomoj	that makes it seem much less peculiar
06:19	Chousuke	tomoj: there's also sorted-set
06:20	tomoj	right, sorted-set is what made it peculiar to me
06:20	tomoj	because it's different from set
06:20	tomoj	but hash-set fills in the gap and makes it make sense
06:26	Chousuke	debugging this reader thing I wrote is getting on my nerves. I'm hitting some bug re-recompiling Clojure with it that doesn't even give consistent exceptions ;/
06:27	Chousuke	I suspect there's something wrong with syntax-quote because it seems to complain when macroexpanding definline.
06:28	Chousuke	most of the time it complains about ArraySeq not castable to IFn but then sometimes I get a "wrong number of arguments passed to 'vector?'"...
06:29	Chousuke	the worst of it is that when I try to execute those definlines using a repl, everything seems to work fine
06:31	Chousuke	probably the error is somewhere else and it just triggers on definline :/
06:55	stephenj	~comparator
06:55	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
06:56	stephenj	That's not very nice clojurebot
06:56	stephenj	comparator
06:56	stephenj	'comparator
06:58	_ato	,comparator
06:58	clojurebot	#<core$comparator__5152 clojure.core$comparator__5152@10c6482>
06:58	_ato	,(doc comparator)
06:58	clojurebot	"([pred]); Returns an implementation of java.util.Comparator based upon pred."
06:59	_ato	~def comparator
07:01	stephenj	Thanks _ato
07:17	gerry`	(deftype person [] [Runnable]
07:17	gerry`	(.run [] (println "ok")))
07:17	gerry`	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$distinct-QMARK- (NO_SOURCE_FILE:8)
07:17	gerry`
07:18	gerry`	hello
07:18	gerry`	how to define deftype without fields?
07:19	gerry`	and what's "distinc-QMARK..." stuff?
07:19	gerry`	though reify can work in this case
07:22	gerry`	anyone here?
07:22	stephenj	yes, but new so I know less...
07:23	gerry`	hmm
07:29	liwp	gerry`: I know nothing about deftype, but distinct-QMARK is a call to (distict? ...) somewhere
07:29	liwp	,(doc distict?)
07:29	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
07:29	liwp	,(doc distinct?)
07:29	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns true if no two of the arguments are ="
07:32	stephenj	~def deftype
07:34	gerry`	(displayInterface 'java.lang.Runnable)
07:34	gerry`	java/lang/Runnable extends java/lang/Object {
07:34	gerry`	run()V
07:34	gerry`	}
07:36	gerry`	(displayInterface 'clojure.lang.IObj)
07:36	gerry`	clojure/lang/IObj extends java/lang/Object {
07:36	gerry`	withMeta(Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap;)Lclojure/lang/IObj;
07:36	gerry`	}
07:43	gerry`	liwp: i need look into clojure sources, but i my poor java knowledge seems can't help me :)
07:44	_ato	gerry`: looks like a bug, deftype is only a few days old
07:49	AWizzArd	rhickey: is in the PAR branch a pfilter?
07:49	gerry`	hmm
07:49	rhickey	AWizzArd: no
07:54	AWizzArd	Maybe a pfilter could be a nice addition to core :)
07:56	rhickey	AWizzArd: patch welcome! but an order-preserving pfilter for vectors is tricky
07:56	gerry`	i'm testing reify/deftype with asm, reify works great
07:56	rhickey	gerry`: asm?
07:56	gerry`	clojure.asm.*
07:57	gerry`	rhickey: is deftype without fields bug?
07:57	rhickey	gerry`: yes
07:57	gerry`	ok
07:57	rhickey	not your bug, mine
07:58	gerry`	;-)
08:12	solussd	if I memoize a function that takes a ref as an argument and checks the contents of a ref in an 'if', will that check be preserved, or will it always return the same output for a given ref after it is called once for that ref?
08:14	cgrand	solussd: will always return the same result for a given ref whatever its actual value is
08:14	solussd	that is what i thought it should do, but it doesn't appear to be working that way.. hm
08:15	cgrand	,(let [i (memoize deref) a (atom 1)] (i a) (reset! a 2) (i a))
08:15	clojurebot	1
08:16	rhickey	gerry`: fixed - was bug in case
08:16	gerry`	great
08:20	rhickey	gerry`: one sec - breakage
08:21	_ato	hehe, now it only takes no fields :)
08:23	rhickey	ok now fixed
08:24	rhickey	someone's writing case/refify/deftype/defclass tests to contribute, right?
08:34	gerry`	ok,now it works, rhickey: thx for good job
08:35	chouser	I don't think we have a 'new' branch for contrib.
08:35	rhickey	chouser: current contrib works with new, I test before each checkin
08:36	rhickey	obviously it doesn't have any new-specific code
08:36	rhickey	but tests for reify et al can go right into core
08:37	rhickey	are you thinking about converting proxy to reify, defstruct to deftype, etc?
08:37	chouser	oh! no, I simply forgot that clojure's tests were no longer in contrib. sorry
08:38	chouser	need more tea, apparently.
08:39	chouser	is proxy on the chopping-block? defstruct? Even if their not, using those tests as a starting point may not be a bad idea.
08:39	gerry`	proxy works with inherit class ,how can reify do that?
08:39	rhickey	chouser: I'm trying to stay away from chopping block, but that's a good idea
08:39	rhickey	gerry`: reify can't
08:43	gerry`	so reify can't replace proxy,right?
08:43	rhickey	gerry`: not everywhere
08:43	chouser	only for well-designed APIs
08:44	chouser	Clojure is opinionated. :-)
08:44	rhickey	chouser: fighting the good fight - thanks :)
08:44	gerry`	ok
08:45	gerry`	interfaces + data = clojure ,not include classes
08:47	gerry`	is my understanding right?
08:48	rhickey	+ protocols, will be more important than interfaces
08:48	rhickey	but in the same space
08:48	gerry`	thx
08:54	rhickey	I had been thinking about (implement AProtocol AType fn-map), but now think it might be more convenient to implement multiple protocols in a single place (___? AType AProtocol fn-map BProtocol fn-map ...)
08:55	gerry`	but due to java interop,and reify is faster than proxy, reify support superclass may be one of choices,.java interop shouldnot be punished by bad API :)
08:57	chouser	gerry`: and even a good Java API can't provide implementations to inject via macros or whatever becomes the Clojure way -- inheriting implementation may be the only choice.
08:58	chouser	gerry`: so, I believe an uber-proxy is planned, though I don't understand the layers under deftype/defclass/reify enough yet to know where it fits in there
08:58	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "name this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89891
09:00	rhickey	chouser: it basically means a painful and huge hack to the reify/deftype underpinning to support superclass, super ctors, ctor bodies, super method access, protected access etc
09:00	chouser	rhickey: yeah, that's sorta what I was afraid of. A shame to mess up perfectly good code that's already there.
09:01	rhickey	doing it in the current Java compiler is something I don't want to spend my time on
09:01	chouser	ah
09:01	rhickey	with cinc, and knowing the requirement in advance, we can probably structure things so reify and proxy share code
09:05	rhickey	mixins as ordinary maps of names to fns is going to be fun
09:07	chouser	provide, support, satisfy, fulfill
09:07	chouser	will this be the primary interface to implement a protocol(s) for a specific type?
09:08	rhickey	I think so, since it can do one as easily as n
09:09	rhickey	the notion of satisfy might be derivable (still pondering protocols on protocols and bridges), so this should be more concrete
09:18	gerry`	impl? achieve? deploy? assemble? compound?
09:19	rhickey	maybe extend?, as there could be many independent (extend X ...) for and X
09:19	rhickey	for any
09:20	rhickey	of course that's a very different meaning from Java's X extends Y
09:20	rhickey	or maybe not
09:21	chouser	almost a pun
09:22	chouser	at first you extend A by providing Foo (extend Foo A)
09:23	chouser	then you extend B by providing Foo and also extend Foo itself (extend Foo B)
09:24	rhickey	chouser: In Java, extends is more about "adds stuff to" then extending an interface to reach new types
09:25	rhickey	but none of this English is very precise
09:25	rhickey	I think of it as extending the type to support more protocols
09:26	cgrand	supplement?
09:26	rhickey	cgrand: that's the idea
09:27	rhickey	I'm not concerned about the JAva overlap here
09:27	chouser	in a grid of all types (y axis) and all protocols (x axis), each map in a 'extend' form fills in one cell.
09:27	rhickey	yes
09:28	rhickey	:)
09:29	rhickey	if only it were that simple - you should see my current omnigraffles - when interfaces and inheritance, and potential protocols-on-protocols come into play it gets tricky
09:31	rhickey	I asked my wife to email me one of these diagrams the other day and she gave it the subject line: Spaghetti
09:32	froog	:)
09:32	rhickey	so maybe we should call it 'toss'
09:32	chouser	heh
10:52	fradiavalo	How do I slice strings in clojure? For eg in python I can do "abcde"[:-2] to get abc
10:54	tomoj	,(doc subs)
10:54	clojurebot	"([s start] [s start end]); Returns the substring of s beginning at start inclusive, and ending at end (defaults to length of string), exclusive."
10:54	tomoj	no negative indices I guess, though
10:55	fradiavalo	Ah, that is really what I am after, to get everything but last 2 characters
10:55	tomoj	well
10:55	tomoj	,(let [s "abcde"] (subs s 0 (- (.length s) 2)))
10:55	clojurebot	"abc"
10:55	tomoj	guess you can write a little wrapper around that if you want
10:56	eevar2	fradiavalo: you could also use any of the functions which work on seqs
10:56	eevar2	or the java String api
10:56	tomoj	is there something which drops n from the end of a seq?
10:56	fradiavalo	I think seq functions might help here, let me see
10:57	tomoj	well, (butlast (butlast aseq)) I guess...
10:57	tomoj	but turning a string into a seq and then back into a string seems strange to me just to chop off two characters
10:58	tomoj	subs just uses .substring
11:00	fradiavalo	yeah, I can't seem to find an elegent way to do this
11:01	tomoj	on my computer subs is like ten times faster than doing butlast twice
11:01	tomoj	what, you don't want to ask the string for its length?
11:02	tomoj	as far as I know java strings have no support for python-style negative indices, so asking the string for its length is the only way
11:02	fradiavalo	I could write a function along the lines you suggested, but I was hoping I could do without it
11:02	tomoj	well, you can :)
11:02	fradiavalo	In general it would be nice to have this work for all sequences
11:02	tomoj	even if it did work for all sequences, doing it the sequence way is lots slower than doing it the string way
11:04	fradiavalo	tomoj: true, could one write a multimethod here to choose different implementations?
11:05	tomoj	guess you could, but I don't really understand why you would want to
11:06	fradiavalo	Just to have a general function which works across all seqs or seq like objects
11:06	tomoj	#(butlast (butlast %)) works
11:06	tomoj	but is (subs foo 0 (- (.length foo) 2)) too ugly, or..?
11:08	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
11:08	clojurebot	PONG!
11:09	rhickey	(deftype Foo [a b c])
11:09	rhickey	,(deftype Foo [a b c])
11:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: deftype in this context
11:09	fradiavalo	tomoj: your soln is good, I am just being finicky
11:28	cemerick	rhickey: Everything's been gone swimmingly since yesterday morning. There was a bit of nip and tuck here and there because of the dashed-names, but everything we have is now using the HEAD of the new branch.
11:29	rhickey	cemerick: great! I had a question for you - had you/are you using the accessor fn capability of defstruct?
11:30	cemerick	rhickey: yes, we still have one struct still, which is tied up with our crazy struct/genclass macros. That won't last though, at which point we'll be struct free.
11:30	cemerick	and, to answer your question, yes, struct accessors are used there
11:31	rhickey	but were you using accessors and have you provided similar things for your deftypes?
11:32	cemerick	oh, I see what you're getting at. We were using accessor fns as the targets of gen-class getter method impls -- with field access, that's clearly unnecessary.
11:33	rhickey	ok, because leaving any wrapper around (:field x) will seriously diminish the benefits of the keyword call site caching I put in. If you are using (.field x) directly it's moot
11:34	cemerick	right. We have those set of interfaces that define simple .fieldname getters for various slots. Certainly no need for separate accessor fns there.
11:38	cemerick	The only similar thing that exists now are some accessor fns that dynamically unpack slots. e.g. so you can use the same bounds fn to get the value out of any Bounded (our interface that defines a .bounds getter method), a map (or deftype/defclass now) with a :bounds slot, and have it automatically deref the result if necessary. I'd like to get rid of that mechanism, but it's going to take a while to unwind that -- and it's only used for ~5 slots.
11:45	chouser	slightly better layout for iphones now at http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
11:45	cemerick	"I don't need no stinkin' youtube on my phone, I need #clojure log files!" :-D
11:45	chouser	so true!
11:46	hiredman	there're not #clojure logs, there're #clojure: The Definitive Reference
11:46	chouser	each day is still way too long now. I need some kinda of intra-day navigation.
11:46	hiredman	they're
11:46	hiredman	good loard
11:46	chouser	hiredman: so true!!
11:47	chouser	although it's been months since I gave up reading the overnights :-/
11:48	hiredman	I glance over the scroll back looking for rhickey
11:49	chouser	yeah, that's one option for the intra-page. direct links to rhickey posts.
11:49	hiredman	haha
11:49	rhickey	a summary of questions asked would be nice
11:49	hiredman	yeah
11:50	hiredman	Dialogues with the Benevolent Dictator
11:52	Kjellski	Hi there...
11:54	Kjellski	Is there any way to alias a java import? Like (ns de.kjellski (:import (javax.sip) :as foo)) ?
12:00	fradiavalo	tomoj: where did you import butlast from? str_utils2.clj?
12:01	tomoj	fradiavalo: it's in core
12:01	tomoj	,(doc butlast)
12:01	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a seq of all but the last item in coll, in linear time"
12:02	chouser	Kjellski: alas, no. The best you can do is use import and then refer to just the classname part instead of requiring the whole package.
12:02	fradiavalo	tomoj: Oh yeah, I saw another one in str_util2.clj
12:03	fradiavalo	"Returns s without the last n characters. Returns an empty string
12:03	fradiavalo	if n is greater than the length of s."
12:03	fradiavalo	(butlast "ABC")
12:03	fradiavalo	oops wrong window, sorry
12:03	tomoj	oh, cool
12:04	tomoj	source is pretty much the same thing
12:05	tomoj	except they use count and check to make sure you don't try to take too much
12:05	tomoj	take too much off I mean
12:05	fradiavalo	It also works with last n characters
12:05	tomoj	I mean same thing as (subs s 0 (- (.length ......
12:06	fradiavalo	Also I wonder why all the underscored filenames are converted to hyphens for import?
12:06	tomoj	cus hyphens are more lispy
12:06	hiredman	eh?
12:06	chouser	because underscores are ugly and hard to type
12:06	hiredman	for import?
12:06	patrkris	where do I ask about VimClojure-related stuff?
12:07	chouser	patrkris: right here, though it works best when kotarak is around
12:07	hiredman	this is as good a place as any
12:07	chouser	~seen kotarak
12:07	clojurebot	no, I have not seen kotarak
12:07	Kjellski	chouser : Thanks.
12:07	patrkris	chouser: ok, thanks
12:07	hiredman	I wasn't aware that import also did the name munging
12:08	chouser	hiredman: I assume he means use\|require
12:08	hiredman	fradiavalo: well?
12:09	fradiavalo	hiredman: so why not have hyphenated filenames?
12:09	hiredman	fradiavalo: hyphens are not legal in java classnames/package names
12:09	Kjellski	chouser : uhm, nope... I need to import a few things for an sip stack... and just wondered what to do instead of typing all imports... thought I could "alias" javax.sip as sip or so...
12:09	fradiavalo	hiredman: Ah okay. Thanks, that makes sense.
12:10	hiredman	really?
12:10	chouser	Kjellski: sorry, by "he" I meant fradiavalo -- I should have specified.
12:10	hiredman	I mean of course it does!
12:10	Kjellski	chouser : okay... ^^ nevermind...
12:11	fradiavalo	chouser: yeah, you are right. Sorry for the name mangling
12:11	fradiavalo	I am still getting my head around (import use require)
12:17	hiredman	http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3673
12:19	chouser	macros
12:19	chouser	well, probably not, but it's my go-to answer
12:20	hiredman	except neither haskell nor erlang have those, yes?
12:21	chouser	right. which is why it's the next order of magnitude
12:21	hiredman	:P
12:21	chouser	actually, template haskell is all there for macros. But the static typing requirement increase the complexity of writing them quite a bit it seems.
12:28	chouser	I have a list of expressions, each with a logical name. I'd like a seq of the names of the true ones.
12:29	cemerick	man, it's taking me a while to get my web dev sea legs back :-/
12:29	chouser	,(map first (filter second {:foo true, :bar false}))
12:29	clojurebot	(:foo)
12:29	chouser	hm. I guess that's not too bad.
12:30	hiredman	clojurebot: web dev is the worst dev
12:30	clojurebot	In Ordnung
12:32	cemerick	I'm half-tempted to throw my hands up and bust out JSPs, just because that'll come flowing back in a cinch from 8 yrs ago. :-P
12:33	Kjellski	How can I do someting like --> new SipFactory.getInstance.setPathName("nist.gov");
12:34	chouser	Kjellski: that doesn't need to be getInstance() ?
12:35	Kjellski	chouser : Couldn´t I combine the two in one row? Actually it´s getInstance() and in the next step setPathName ...
12:36	hiredman	->
12:36	Kjellski	chouser : misunderstood you, sorry... yes it´s a method call...
12:36	hiredman	doto
12:36	hiredman	..
12:36	Kjellski	,(doc ->)
12:36	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
12:36	hiredman	etc etc
12:36	chouser	(-> SipFactory. .getInstance (.setPathName "nist.gof"))
12:36	Kjellski	chouser : Thanks!
12:38	hiredman	you might need some parans around SipFactory.
12:38	chouser	hiredman: are you doubting ME!?!?!!!?
12:39	chouser	er, I mean, hiredman's right.
12:39	chouser	:-)
12:39	Kjellski	grin ^^
12:39	djork	clojurebot: web dev?
12:39	clojurebot	web dev is the worst dev
12:39	djork	I see
12:39	Kjellski	clojurebot: hiredman
12:39	clojurebot	hiredman is lazy
12:40	Kjellski	heh...
12:40	Kjellski	clojurebot: kjellski
12:40	clojurebot	Huh?
12:40	Kjellski	Noooooooooo... how dare you ...
12:41	Kjellski	hiredman : actually I´m reading a lot of the clojurebot sources to dive deeper... thanks for the sources...
12:49	djork	Kjellski: good move. That and clojure.contrib.
12:49	djork	clojurebot: clojurebot
12:49	clojurebot	clojurebot is amazing
12:49	hiredman	Kjellski: keep in mind that code is a form of expression, and reading a lot of code by one person is rather one sided
12:51	djork	clojurebot: windows
12:51	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:51	djork	me either
12:52	Kjellski	hiredman : of course, but I think starting with something not as abstract as clojure.contrib is easier for me...
12:52	st__	would anybody be able to provide help re. Emacs & swank-clojure-project ?
12:52	st__	AquaMacs, to be exact
12:53	Kjellski	st__ : I suggest you to just ask and look who´s responding...
12:53	st__	If I try to run the elisp function to set my classpath, I get a prompt that I can't get out of ? directory completion doesn't work, and <RET> doesn't work, either
12:54	st__	(apologies if this is a mere Emacs question; I've never seen this before)
12:54	djork	C-g doesn't get out of it?
12:54	Kjellski	st__ : and now I can tell you, that I have no clue... sorry...
12:55	st__	C-g sort of gets me out of it, but the minibuffer still has it
12:55	st__	and I can't use the function, which means I can't really use Emacs :-(
12:56	st__	any other hint to set the classpath would be appreciated, too
12:57	technomancy	st__: what's the "elisp function to set the classpath"?
12:57	technomancy	you should be able to just use setq.
13:10	Kjellski	Should I use doto also for member methods that return things?
13:10	chouser	not if you want to be able to use the returned values.
13:11	Kjellski	And what if I want to use them?
13:12	Kjellski	I want to call a memberfn of a javaobject that has attrs...
13:13	Kjellski	Would this be okay? (.. sipFactory (.createSipStack "args")) looks like doubled expression of that is a memfn...
13:13	chouser	or just (.method obj "args")
13:15	Kjellski	chouser : Oh my... thanks again... I need a say thanks to one of you button...
13:17	chouser	Kjellski: don't bother. I can assume you're thankful. :-)
13:18	Kjellski	chouser : thanks. grin
13:38	Kjellski	Anyone a quick link to a complex proxy example?
13:49	AWizzArd	How can I find out if an object O is a (deftype Foo [x y])?
13:49	chouser	(= (type O) ::Foo) ?
13:50	AWizzArd	ok
13:51	AWizzArd	Will that soonish work with intance? or isa??
14:04	ambient	yeah, i'd need a good tutorial for complex proxies also
14:04	ambient	i just can't quite grok them
14:06	chouser	how complex? there's one in contrib lazy-xml
14:08	ambient	i still feel like im shooting ducks with a blindfold on
14:08	ambient	how do i define a callback function types in a proxy?
14:10	ambient	im trying to convert this into clojure: http://code.google.com/p/jrtaudio/source/browse/trunk/examples/src/OscillatorBank.java
14:10	ambient	to learn how to use jrtaudio
14:14	Kjellski	ambient : I don´t see where you need a proxy there...
14:14	ambient	audio.openStreamOut(new OscillatorBank()); where OscillatorBank containst a callback function to generate the audio output
14:16	ambient	it's calling a java class, and i dont know how to do that other than proxies
14:16	ambient	java class, that i'm supposed to construct
14:17	ambient	im open to suggestions :)
14:17	Kjellski	What interface is the callback in? Or is there none?
14:17	ambient	its a JNI wrapper for a C++ class
14:18	ambient	http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtaudio/
14:18	Kjellski	Hmmm... I thought that with proxys you could just _implement_ things from interfaces... but I´m pretty sure I´m wrong...
14:19	ambient	well i have no clue what to do with this, that's why I'm asking. I've tried to browse the documentation and the web but still unsuccesfully
14:19	ambient	the only way currently for me to do this is to write something and see if it works, write something new, etc...
14:19	Kjellski	What about defining your own interface with excatly h
14:20	Kjellski	that method signature and implement that in a proxy to be set in the function call?
14:20	ambient	you mean write some java?
14:21	Kjellski	ambient : japs, but that would suck like trial and error right?
14:21	ambient	well i could probably do it with java, but i'd rather not write any java because the goal in this project for me is to do it with 100% clojure
14:22	jasapp	I'm probably missing something here, but what's wrong with gen-class and compile?
14:22	ambient	jasapp i've still yet to look into that deeper, because i thought this could be done with proxies
14:22	jasapp	ahh
14:23	jasapp	it's not bad at all
14:23	jasapp	provided compiling stuff ahead of time doesn't pose a problem
14:24	ambient	hmm, if it can be done from emacs, i suppose it doesn't ;)
14:24	jasapp	heh, is there anything that can't be done from emacs?
14:24	ambient	would a simple C-c C-k work?
14:25	jasapp	I've never figured out where emacs actually puts the class files
14:25	ambient	anyhow, back to reading stuff about gen-class, thanks guys
14:25	Kjellski	ambient: , in the JRtAudio.java file it looks like that openStreamOut is just getting an Object type as the parameter... maybe it would be enough to just throw an Object with callable interface in there... and that could be done with writing a proxy for the callable interface...
14:26	ambient	Kjellski ok, thanks
14:26	Kjellski	ambient : http://code.google.com/p/jrtaudio/source/browse/trunk/src/JRtAudio.java
14:57	qed	'lo
14:58	qed	I need some help building a proper prime sieve -- I need to find the sum of all the primes below 2 million for project euler #10 -- I've seen some examples of prime sieves but I simply am not advanced enough to be able to take their code and claim I know what's going on
14:58	qed	If it's not 100% lazy or efficient I don't really care
14:58	qed	I just need something that will work
14:58	ambient	http://paste.lisp.org/display/69952
15:01	qed	amb is that for me?
15:01	ambient	yes
15:02	Kjellski	ambient : could I take that too? ^^
15:03	qed	ambient: why the initial (let [n (int n)]?
15:03	ambient	enforcing types
15:03	qed	ah
15:03	ambient	i don't know, i didn't write it, rhickey did
15:03	ambient	reflection is the performance killer
15:04	tomoj	seems weird that you'd do the reverse list trick
15:04	tomoj	reverse is linear time for a list, isn't it?
15:04	ambient	unless you have a doubly linked list ;)
15:04	chouser	that's not just avoiding reflection, it's using a primitive local
15:05	Kjellski	chouser : whatever you say: amen.
15:05	Kjellski	chouser : In other words, what does that mean?
15:06	notallama	i just did a prime generator in haskell a little while ago. i did it in clojure first, but i don't know where i put it. http://pastebin.com/me4e71f3
15:07	Kjellski	What about the Java probableNextPrime from Java-Math or so...?
15:09	tomoj	I wonder if generating the primes efficiently requires you to store them all in memory at once
15:09	ambient	nope
15:09	ambient	you can keep just about 10 in memory when generating more iirc
15:09	tomoj	I think I used a next-prime thing which went off and checked each successive number for primality, so that you didn't have to store them all
15:09	tomoj	but that was slow
15:10	chouser	~primes
15:10	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
15:10	chouser	~sieve
15:10	clojurebot	see the genuine sieve of eratosthenes
15:11	chouser	~genuine sieve
15:11	clojurebot	see the genuine sieve of eratosthenes
15:11	chouser	~genuine sieve of eratosthenes
15:11	clojurebot	see the genuine sieve of eratosthenes
15:11	chouser	sheesh
15:11	chouser	~the genuine sieve of eratosthenes
15:11	clojurebot	the genuine sieve of eratosthenes is http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Sieve-JFP.pdf
15:13	qed	ooooooo this is neat
15:13	qed	chouser: im sure you've probably solved this one
15:14	qed	how did you do problem 11 in proj. euler -- the one where you have a 20x20 grid and you need to find the greatest product of 4 adjacent numbers up/down/left/right
15:14	qed	how did you represent the grid in clojure?
15:14	chouser	no, the genuine sieve was too much for me. :-)
15:14	qed	chouser: haha i doubt that :)
15:14	notallama	that haskell code i posted is either the same as that article, or very close.
15:15	ambient	qed you could represent it just as a 1-d array
15:15	ambient	qed up=-20, left=-1, right=1, down=20
15:15	chouser	my solution for 11 uses a vector of vectors
15:16	notallama	that grid problem sounds like a job for comonads. i'm still not entirely sure what a comonad is, but i'm starting to recognize where you can use them.
15:17	tomoj	I had a vector of vectors too
15:17	tomoj	and then a direction is a function on a pair
15:17	tomoj	and get-in grabs a value from the grid
15:17	qed	clojure doesnt like numbers as 0n, does it?
15:17	qed	like 08
15:18	hiredman	,08
15:18	clojurebot	Invalid number: 08
15:18	chouser	octal
15:18	hiredman	^-
15:18	chouser	,10
15:18	clojurebot	10
15:18	qed	ahhh
15:18	chouser	er
15:18	notallama	,07
15:18	clojurebot	7
15:18	chouser	,010
15:18	clojurebot	8
15:18	Kjellski	huh?
15:18	Kjellski	,090
15:18	clojurebot	Invalid number: 090
15:19	ambient	0 is a prefix for octals
15:19	ambient	0-7
15:19	Kjellski	,0010
15:19	clojurebot	8
15:19	Kjellski	got it... thanks...
15:19	ambient	,0xFF
15:19	clojurebot	255
15:19	qed	so is there a way to use the grid they provided
15:19	qed	without running some regex or something on it
15:20	ambient	,0xCAFEBABE
15:20	clojurebot	3405691582
15:20	notallama	,(bigint "08")
15:20	clojurebot	8
15:20	qed	ah-ha
15:20	chouser	,(class (bigint "08"))
15:20	clojurebot	java.math.BigInteger
15:21	notallama	,(Integer/parseInt "08")
15:21	clojurebot	8
15:21	chouser	,(class (Integer. "08"))
15:21	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
15:21	ambient	,(int "08")
15:21	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Character
15:21	ambient	:(
15:21	Kjellski	,(int 08)
15:21	clojurebot	Invalid number: 08
15:21	Kjellski	,(int 07)
15:21	clojurebot	7
15:21	Kjellski	,(int 017)
15:21	clojurebot	15
15:21	qed	so i have this grid -- my first intuition is to use map #(int %) my-grid-which-contains 08
15:22	qed	but that's not working
15:22	qed	err not int, bigint
15:22	tomoj	hmm
15:22	tomoj	I wonder how I got my grid
15:22	tomoj	I found my old solution and I stripped off the extra 0 somehow
15:22	notallama	qed: Integer/parseInt will work too, and give you an int.
15:23	qed	notallama: how would you map it across a list or a vector though?
15:23	chouser	,(map #(Integer. %) (re-seq #"\d+" "08 02 22 97 38"))
15:23	clojurebot	(8 2 22 97 38)
15:23	tomoj	nice
15:23	qed	whoa -- that's cool
15:23	qed	thanks chouser
15:24	ambient	,(frequencies "feoifoenfoeijvoiejf")
15:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: frequencies in this context
15:24	ambient	:(
15:25	duncanm	dum de dum
15:26	ambient	,(clojure.contrib.seq-utils/frequencies "dum de dum")
15:26	clojurebot	{\e 1, \space 2, \m 2, \u 2, \d 3}
15:29	Chousuke	this is not fun anymore :(
15:30	notallama	what isn't?
15:30	Chousuke	I'm writing a reader, and as far as I can tell, my reader produces identical output to Clojure's, and still compilation fails
15:30	Chousuke	it also fails with a completely mind-boggling error
15:30	jasapp	maybe I should write a reader
15:31	notallama	you're writing a reader too?
15:31	jasapp	it seems like the popular thing to do
15:32	qed	that movie "The Reader" only had me thinking about lisp the whole time
15:32	ambient	heh :)
15:32	Chousuke	It for some completely ???"#?€? reason tells me that something is passing wrong arguments to a certain function but all debug prints show completely sane inputs...
15:33	Chousuke	in the inputs look identical to what LispReader produces.
15:33	Chousuke	-in
15:33	notallama	did you try (= (read-str blah) (your-read blah)), just to make sure?
15:33	chouser	Chousuke: you're comparing metadata too?
15:33	Chousuke	hmm, I haven't tried that actually.
15:34	chouser	= won't
15:34	chouser	of course
15:34	ambient	i remember the time when i had an extra space in my XML build file which completely broke my whole project
15:35	Chousuke	hmmh.
15:35	jasapp	I had similar trouble with some xml I'm working on
15:35	jasapp	I ended up having to call trim on almost all my strings
15:35	jasapp	but printed, it was annoyingly the same
15:35	Chousuke	it'll be difficult to compare the two readers :/
15:36	jasapp	what are you writing your reader in?
15:36	Chousuke	Clojure
15:36	Chousuke	of course :P
15:36	tomoj	so will your reader someday read itself? O_o
15:36	jasapp	not going the java route?
15:36	Chousuke	that's what I'm trying to make it do.
15:37	tomoj	that kind of thing blows my mind
15:37	Chousuke	tomoj: I can use Clojure to compile the reader and then recompile it once, but a second recompilation using the newly produced reader blows up.
15:37	ambient	wonder how easy it would be after cinc to port clojure for eg. running on top of LLVM
15:38	Chousuke	also it compiles contrib just fine, and all tests pass save for one which for some reason blows up the stack
15:39	qed	you want to conj onto vectors right?
15:40	qed	oops nevermind
15:42	notallama	ambient: you'd have to get defclass and such doing sensible things on llvm, so i'm thinking it'd still be pretty tough.
15:43	ambient	yes, the java interop would have to go and just keep the lispy parts
15:44	notallama	it doesn't sound to great to me. you'd get to call c code instead i guess, but i dunno how well that would work.
15:45	chouser	It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. Clojure does expect the host to provide at least a minimal OOP system I think, so porting to C++ (without templates and with a GC lib) might be easier than C or LLVM.
15:45	ambient	interesting
15:46	notallama	templates are my favourite part of c++. minus the syntax.
15:46	chouser	hm, though once clojure.lang classes are all actually deftypes and protocols, I wonder how much OOP the host would actually need to have.
15:47	jbendig	Calling C++ libraries at runtime would be painful wouldn't it? Clojure with C seems easier to me.
15:47	jbendig	It's painful with CL anyways.
15:47	chouser	I call C++ libraries from Clojure all the time.
15:47	jbendig	Using JNI?
15:47	chouser	the usage isn't too painful, though the initial setup was a bit.
15:48	chouser	yeah, JNI as generated by swig
15:48	ambient	i thought about that, but at first look it seems extremely painful
15:49	jbendig	I haven't tried that yet. Sounds like a good idea. I don't have much use for Java libraries but I do for C++ .
15:49	ambient	but that's just because I'm on windows :p
15:50	Chousuke	What I don't get is that the clojure-reader Clojure works just fine when compiled with a java-reader and then with itself but not when compiled only with itself ;(
15:56	Raynes	technomancy: Whenever you get a chance, I left a message on the swank-clojure mailing list, asking a question about using alternate clojure and clojure-contrib jar files. It appears someone else has posted a query as well.
15:59	chouser	even without trying to thread responses, it seems quite tricky to programmatically pick out new topics from an IRC log.
16:01	StartsWithK	chouser: how about then we tell the bot what it was? like !tag -30min reader error
16:01	chouser	maybe we can train everybody to start with "new topic:"
16:02	ambient	why is there a need to do that?
16:03	ambient	if you don't mind me asking
16:03	chouser	ambient: I'm trying to figure out a descent way to provide intra-page navigation for the #clojure logs
16:04	chouser	a list of links at the top of the page to specific topics would be brilliant, if it were possible.
16:04	ambient	lexical affinity has been found an useful way to categorize random text
16:05	tomoj	but we don't have training data
16:05	chouser	I just listed every poast that ends in a ? but the results are essentially useless.
16:05	rhickey	huh
16:06	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "questions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89911
16:06	chouser	or at the very least too noisy.
16:06	ambient	what about categorizing everything where "hello" or "hi" occurs with "problem" in the same line ;)
16:07	ambient	or words like "so," with at least two "I"'s
16:08	chouser	ambient: heh.
16:09	shoover	chouser: or... a view that only shows lines starting with "rhickey:", mouse over or click to see the rest
16:09	chouser	hm, lines at least 30 chars ending in ? is quite a bit better
16:09	chouser	shoover: my sandbox here has all rhickey posts in red. :-)
16:10	rhickey	including how,what,where, why , will ?
16:10	jbendig	I've noticed some interesting questions were in reference to Clojure's idioms. Might be able to filter some questions by searching for the word "idiom."
16:10	shoover	chouser: erc shows my posts in red :)
16:11	rhickey	in any case it is a lot less to go through than the entire log if used as anchors
16:11	ambient	jbendig i feel so _conflicted_ using "bla bla bla.", which is linquistically correct, instead of "bla bla bla". which is logically correct
16:12	shoover	any kind of anchors with j/k style navigation would be great
16:12	chouser	shoover: j/k ?
16:12	shoover	chouser: single key next/prev
16:13	chouser	so I've got 54 relatively interesting lines for today -- you want a list of links at the top of the page? down the side?
16:13	jbendig	ambient: I completely agree.
16:13	chouser	shoover: it sounds like you're talking about using them differently, but I don't understand yet.
16:14	shoover	chouser: links are fine, but for blazing through a few days logs I would prefer to use the keyboard
16:15	ambient	i think vimperator has keybindings for that
16:15	chouser	shoover: right -- you want a key that skips to the next "interesting" line?
16:15	shoover	chouser: Yes. My use is "Oh, I haven't been on for 2 weeks, what's been going on?"
16:16	chouser	hm ... I like not repeating the text.
16:16	Licenser_	the key that skips to the next interesting line is the oftne ctrl+end
16:17	chouser	rhickey: is that what you're thinking too? I'm not sure what "used as anchors" means.
16:17	rhickey	chouser: yes
16:17	rhickey	nav
16:18	chouser	so a key to skip forward/backward to interesting lines.
16:18	chouser	maybe up/down clickables on those lines for the keyboard-impared
16:18	hiredman	Chousuke: have you looked at the metadata?
16:20	Chousuke	it's pretty difficult to debug because I only seem to get the exceptions when compiling with ant :/
16:20	hiredman	:/
16:20	hiredman	time for print statements
16:20	Chousuke	I have them all over :P
16:21	hiredman	at one point I had every single fn in my reader printing when it was called, and then inside several of the more complicated fns I had more prns
16:21	hiredman	I had a new var trace-reader that you could bind to true to get this big long trace
16:22	hiredman	which I took out in the final version, because of a few issues
16:22	Chousuke	all my individual tests show no problems with metadata, at least :(
16:23	tomoj	could you have ant hang and start a swank server somehow?
16:23	Chousuke	I also tried using LispReader's syntaxquote but it didn't help :)
16:30	chouser	hold me back!
16:31	chouser	I have (map post-to-html posts) but now I need a bit of state [next interesting post number] passed along.
16:31	hiredman	:(
16:31	chouser	I guess I can use reductions. :-/
16:31	hiredman	use r educe
16:32	hiredman	or that
16:33	chouser	but the conversion for both is so clumsy because the intermediate state leaks into the output seq/collection too.
16:35	chouser	ha! I already have (map post-to-html (cons nil posts) posts) so I can look one post behind as I go along.
16:36	raek	(random clojure nicks: http://ohthehugemanatee.net/word-o-matic/1211/ )
16:36	The-Kenny	I just got "Repl" :)
16:37	chouser	clojurebot: Who's job is it to generate random nicks?
16:37	clojurebot	is is
16:38	hiredman	hmmm
16:38	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to generate random nicks?
16:38	clojurebot	is is
16:39	ambient	heh "Monkey"
16:39	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to generate random nicks?
16:39	clojurebot	that's fgtech's job
16:41	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to remove factoids that break things?
16:41	clojurebot	that's frodwith's job
16:41	hiredman	I really have to do something about the fuzzer, it takes forever
16:42	jasapp	fuzzer?
16:42	ambalek	clojurebot: who's your daddy?
16:42	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:42	jasapp	heh
16:42	adityo	i got Holt
16:43	hiredman	if there isn't an exact match for a lookup clojurebot splits the input into words, and generates a list of a lot of possible combinations of those words, and tries them
16:43	adityo	clojurebot: who's fuzzer
16:43	clojurebot	Huh?
16:44	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/hiredman/clojurebot/factoids.clj#L117
16:45	tomoj	that's so it can answer things even if we don't ask just right?
16:45	adityo	behold Ambitbckey :)
16:46	qed	clojurebot: What is it?
16:46	hiredman	more or less
16:46	clojurebot	What is meta
16:46	qed	oh so it's a markov?
16:46	qed	clojurebot: Who am I?
16:46	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:46	hiredman	the whose job factiod just says "whose job is <reply> that's #someone's job"
16:47	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to keep the metric system down?
16:47	clojurebot	that's TheBusby's job
16:47	chouser	,(reductions (fn [a b] (if b (inc a) a)) 0 (map odd? (take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int 2)))))
16:47	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: reductions in this context
16:47	jasapp	ahh
16:47	chouser	,(use '[clojure.contrib.seq-utils :only (reductions)])
16:47	clojurebot	nil
16:47	Chousuke	raek: heh, I tried the dinosaurs and got "Chilisaurus" :)
16:47	chouser	,(reductions (fn [a b] (if b (inc a) a)) 0 (map odd? (take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int 2)))))
16:47	clojurebot	(0 0 0 1 1 2 3 3 3 3 4)
16:47	qed	clojurebot: whose your daddy? is <reply> #someone's my dadd
16:47	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
16:48	chouser	~daddy?
16:48	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:48	raek	"Clojurka"...
16:48	qed	~dad?
16:48	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:48	qed	lol that's like 3 languages right there
16:49	raek	what's with all the gaelic?
16:49	raek	...and dutch?
16:50	hiredman	~english
16:50	clojurebot	English is the official language of the universe
16:50	jasapp	is clojurebot running in a repl somewhere?
16:50	Chousuke	it responds in a random language when it doesn't understand.
16:50	jasapp	clojurebot: where are you?
16:50	clojurebot	where is your source code
16:51	Chousuke	~source
16:51	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
16:51	Chousuke	clojurebot: forget where
16:51	clojurebot	I forgot where
16:53	The-Kenny	clojurebot: xmpp
16:53	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:54	chouser	destructuring should use (:k m) instead of (get m :k)
16:55	hiredman	clojurebot is on xmpp as clojurebot@thelastcitadel.com
16:55	tomoj	why?
16:55	hiredman	why not?
16:56	tomoj	chouser: why?
16:56	hiredman	:P
16:56	hiredman	the new superfast :foo lookup works in the furst case, I believe
16:56	Chousuke	chouser: what if k is not a keyword? :(
16:56	chouser	yeah
16:56	Chousuke	I suppose it could be specialised for the :keys case.
16:57	chouser	Chousuke: and for actual keys
16:57	chouser	(let [{the-a :a, :keys [b c]}])
16:57	tomoj	keywords as functions are faster now?
16:58	tomoj	or, only for deftype/whatever stuff that I don't understand yet?
16:58	chouser	tomoj: the latter
16:58	tomoj	ah
16:58	rhickey	(:k m) is only fast when :k is a literal keyword, when a var/local holding a keyword it is normal lookup
16:59	chouser	but that should fit nicely with let bindings
16:59	hiredman	makes sense
16:59	rhickey	e.g. (let [k :k] (k m)) is ordinary lookup
16:59	rhickey	but yes, macros can see they have literal keywords
17:18	marcg	pretty quiet here
17:20	Chousuke	marcg: you just missed the discussion :)
17:20	Chousuke	but don't worry, there will be another, eventually :P
17:20	mauritslamers	Question: I am trying to build a pattern finding algorithm and until now I have tried do to that using a recursive loop
17:21	mauritslamers	the speed isn't too good though
17:21	marcg	alright, when I know more about clojure I'll start a discussion :-D
17:21	ambient	mauritslamers strings?
17:22	mauritslamers	not necessarily
17:22	mauritslamers	just any type of data
17:22	mauritslamers	I need a loop to be able to pass on some data to the next loop to prevent false doubles
17:22	mauritslamers	but I wondered whether there was a more efficient way to do that
17:23	ambient	pasting your code/problem might help
17:23	mauritslamers	I was already in the process of doing that :)
17:23	notallama	what sort of patterns are you trying to find? like a regex, but for general seqs, or what?
17:25	lisppaste8	mauritslamers pasted "pattern finding" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89917
17:26	mauritslamers	notallama: I am trying to find any pattern of any length
17:28	ambient	hmm the way i'd do it is just use integers, not any type
17:29	mauritslamers	notallama: So I know it is quite cpu intensive anyway, but I was wondering whether using recur in this way would introduce overheads in either memory or cpu
17:30	mauritslamers	ambient: would it be very inefficient to use strings for these symbols? that is, even when they would be numbers?
17:31	mauritslamers	I use a vector of characters now because that is the type of input I received
17:31	ambient	i usually use integers for algorithms that can be easily mapped as such. like strings can be easily mapped to ascii integer values
17:31	ambient	it doesnt have to be characters, you can map any type of thing to integer that just supports that abstraction
17:32	mauritslamers	would it improve speed much?
17:32	mauritslamers	or would it enable a complete new kind of pattern finding?
17:33	ambient	as i dont completely understand what you're trying to do it's hard to say
17:36	notallama	mauritslamers: do you have an example of how you use it?
17:38	mauritslamers	ambient: what the idea is now, is that I partition the entire input in sequences of 2
17:38	mauritslamers	so, in case of the first input that is commented out
17:38	mauritslamers	the first element in that sequence is (1 2)
17:39	mauritslamers	so I filter the entire sequence for all places where that sequence occurs
17:39	mauritslamers	next I go to the next item (2 3) and do the same
17:39	mauritslamers	the same also for (3 1)
17:40	mauritslamers	the next element is (1 2), but because I already did search for that sequence, I skip that one
17:40	mauritslamers	that repeats for the entire input
17:41	mauritslamers	next I partition in three and do the same for the entire sequence
17:41	mauritslamers	and so on until the length of the sequence has been reached
17:41	ambient	so you want to find unique sequences of length n?
17:41	mauritslamers	yep, exacly
17:42	mauritslamers	what is also important is that if a subsequence of a longer pattern also occurs as a pattern, the algorithm should also return that pattern as a unique sequence
17:43	ambient	,(map #(set (partition % 1 "efeokjfekj")) (range 2 4))
17:43	clojurebot	(#{(\f \e) (\k \j) (\e \f) (\e \k) (\e \o) (\j \f) (\o \k)} #{(\e \o \k) (\e \f \e) (\e \k \j) (\k \j \f) (\j \f \e) (\f \e \k) (\o \k \j) (\f \e \o)})
17:44	ambient	that find all unique sequences between in range 2 to 3
17:44	mauritslamers	mmm, trying to understand what happens
17:47	ambient	you wouldn't happen to be programming a compression algorithm?
17:47	mauritslamers	no, I don't :)
17:47	ambient	oh, ok heh
17:48	mauritslamers	why do you ask?
17:48	mauritslamers	:)
17:48	ambient	finding repeating patterns is just the thing to do to in compression
17:48	ambient	so instead of ffffffff you can write 8f
17:48	mauritslamers	true, but this case the patterns are being used to do other stuff :)
17:54	mauritslamers	ambient: thanks a LOT!
17:54	mauritslamers	that speeds up the algorithm at least 100 times
17:54	ambient	np :)
18:01	mauritslamers	ambient: small additional question: what should I do when I want to have a pointer to the original place inside the input data?
18:02	mauritslamers	because when I use the indexed-partition instead it returns far too much results (of course :) )
18:02	ambient	you'd have to find a way to add an index into the "partition" function
18:03	mauritslamers	that is what indexed-partition does, but wouldn't that influence the set function?
18:03	ambient	,(indexed (partition 2 "foobar"))
18:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: indexed in this context
18:03	ambient	,(clojure.contrib.seq-utils/indexed (partition 2 "foobar"))
18:03	clojurebot	([0 (\f \o)] [1 (\o \b)] [2 (\a \r)])
18:04	ambient	hmm
18:04	ambient	but if you want to have pointers to places where the sequence is located, you can't have unique items
18:05	ambient	because then they're all different because of the location indicator
18:05	mauritslamers	that is what I just found out indeed
18:06	ambient	so you would do (indexed (partition 2 1 "foobar")) to find the locations and for example (frequencies (partition 2 1 "foobar")) to count the occurrances
18:07	mauritslamers	could I force set into only looking at a specific element of the value it gets?
18:07	ambient	functions usually do only one thing
18:07	mauritslamers	the same as saying: "ignore that index")
18:08	mauritslamers	mmm
18:08	ambient	i'd probably just save intermediate values and then do different things unto them
18:08	mauritslamers	it wouldn't be too difficult to search for those patterns later on
18:09	mauritslamers	the use of set already increases the speed of the algorithm hughely, so just searching for the already known pattern shouldn't be a problem to do afterwards
18:09	ambient	it's still N/2
18:10	mauritslamers	true, but in my original algorithm it was N!
18:10	ambient	hehe
18:10	mauritslamers	and luckily the amount of data is not enormous :)
18:11	mauritslamers	so that will be more than fast enough
18:11	mauritslamers	ambient: thanks a million :D
18:11	ambient	nah, it's the power of functional programming
18:12	ambient	things like these are pretty simple
18:13	ambient	useful stuff: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/seq-utils-api.html
18:26	mauritslamers	ambient: I thought I started to get the basic idea of functional programming, but I now see that I need to keep thinking inside out :)
18:26	mauritslamers	but that url is absolutely making it into my favourites!
18:30	ambient	if you want to learn more about functional programming, here's a good book
18:30	ambient	http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_start
18:31	ambient	it has a lot of stuff in it, i'd suggest just reading some chapters that introduce the functional style
18:35	javuchi1	and the best tutorial about clojure?
18:36	ambient	i bought the book, it's pretty good
18:36	hiredman	~blip.tv
18:36	clojurebot	blip.tv is http://clojure.blip.tv/
18:37	ambient	then there is mark volkmann's clojure pages, which for being free, are pretty awesome http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/
18:37	qed	how does apply work compared to reduce
18:37	qed	ambient: i love his audio
18:37	qed	ambient: i registered getclojure.org/com
18:37	qed	just for giggles
18:38	qed	i need to put something up on them -- havent decided what yet
18:38	ambient	apply applied, reduce reduces
18:38	ambient	i really can't explain it better D:
18:38	qed	you mean apply allies
18:38	qed	applies
18:38	ambient	,(apply + [1 2 3])
18:38	clojurebot	6
18:38	danlarkin	qed: dangerous, considering you don't own the copyright to all the words in your domain name :)
18:38	ambient	,(reduce + [1 2 3])
18:38	clojurebot	6
18:39	ambient	,(clojure.contrib.seq-utils/reductions + [1 2 3])
18:39	clojurebot	(1 3 6)
18:39	javuchi1	,'nice
18:39	clojurebot	nice
18:39	javuchi1	hehe
18:39	qed	danlarkin: oh god -- i know that's in jest, but really -- rich is gonna sue me?
18:39	ambient	probably, and you're going to prison
18:39	ambient	for life
18:39	danlarkin	I can't speak on his behalf... but he could! :)
18:40	qed	yeah -- let's hope clojure doesn't make anyone any money
18:40	qed	otherwise im screwed
18:40	hiredman	I think it would be a trademark, not a copymark
18:40	javuchi1	,(if nil true false)
18:40	clojurebot	false
18:40	danlarkin	hiredman: oh you're right
18:40	hiredman	er
18:40	hiredman	copyright
18:40	hiredman	danlarkin: are you sure?
18:40	javuchi1	,(= nil false)
18:40	clojurebot	false
18:40	javuchi1	do you see?
18:40	javuchi1	nonsense
18:41	ambient	,(== nil false)
18:41	clojurebot	false
18:41	danlarkin	hiredman: yeah you trademark brands
18:41	danlarkin	and you copyright IP
18:41	hiredman	nil and false are different, but they are both treated as false by if
18:41	javuchi1	hiredman: really strange behavior
18:41	qed	(def lie true) (if lie false)
18:41	javuchi1	can't undertand why
18:42	hiredman	javuchi1: because a. you should not need false, you should just use nil b. java interop needs false
18:42	hiredman	so clojure has nil and false
18:42	qed	i think b is probably the more important of your explanation
18:42	qed	the more important part*
18:44	javuchi1	hiredman: so it is a jvm issue?
18:44	hiredman	it's not an issue
18:45	javuchi1	i understand it is
18:45	hiredman	it's not
18:45	danlarkin	,(false? nil)
18:45	clojurebot	false
18:45	danlarkin	oh no!
18:45	danlarkin	:)
18:45	javuchi1	at least false should be equal to nil to be consistent
18:45	hiredman	why?
18:45	Chousuke	javuchi1: false can't be equal to nil because false is not nil
18:45	Chousuke	javuchi1: however, both are logically false.
18:46	javuchi1	it has no sense
18:46	javuchi1	,(= nil false)
18:46	clojurebot	false
18:46	qed	it has plenty of sense, it's just weird
18:46	javuchi1	should return true
18:46	hiredman	I just explained the sense
18:46	hiredman	javuchi1: why?
18:46	Chousuke	javuchi1: no, because nil is not false :)
18:46	javuchi1	because nil should be a sinonim of false ;)
18:46	Chousuke	and pretending it is would cause problems.
18:46	qed	"Yes it is!" "No it isn't!"
18:46	hiredman	javuchi1: but it isn't
18:47	qed	'round and 'round we go.
18:47	Chousuke	javuchi1: nil is java null, false is java false.
18:47	hiredman	nil is nothing, false is a boolean value
18:47	javuchi1	that's weird, hehe
18:47	qed	agreed
18:47	hiredman	qed: hey, I ask why
18:47	Chousuke	you bet clojure wouldn't have false if it could be avoided but it can't. :P
18:47	qed	why is it weird?
18:47	hiredman	"it should be this way!" "why?" "because I want it that way!"
18:48	qed	heh -- i mean i can see where he's coming from
18:48	qed	it's a weird little case
18:48	hiredman	shurg
18:48	Chousuke	though sometimes being able to differentiate between nil and false is useful
18:48	qed	agreed
18:48	ambient	Chousuke so the test? functions would returns something-something or nil?
18:48	javuchi1	i don't see when
18:48	Chousuke	nil means "nothing", which could be taken to mean neither true or false.
18:49	hiredman	mostly when doing java interop
18:49	Chousuke	that is, that the value is not known.
18:49	hiredman	but I cannot remember ever having a situation where I cared about false vs. nil
18:49	hiredman	it's a non-issue
18:49	Chousuke	javuchi1: Clojure has false because the JVM has it, but because treating nil as a boolean false is useful, that's also done.
18:50	Chousuke	javuchi1: but Clojure still won't pretend that they're the same thing .)
18:50	javuchi1	then, Chousuke, from your point of view, (if nil true false) should return true, as nil is not a boolean, it is just nothing
18:50	Chousuke	javuchi1: I said it's false in a boolean context.
18:50	hiredman	javuchi1: you are talking about logical value
18:50	Chousuke	which nothingness often is.
18:50	hiredman	boolean is a type
18:51	hiredman	null is not a type
18:51	javuchi1	hiredman: nil is fully featured type which only one value, nil
18:51	qed	,(if false nil true)
18:51	clojurebot	true
18:51	javuchi1	at least it is that way in CL
18:51	hiredman	javuchi1: by your logic anything that is not nil should = true
18:51	hiredman	,(if :a :b :c)
18:51	clojurebot	:b
18:52	Chousuke	heh :D
18:52	Chousuke	,(boolean nil)
18:52	clojurebot	false
18:52	hiredman	common lisp can go do unpleasent things to itsself
18:52	Chousuke	there.
18:52	javuchi1	hiredman: yes if you accept the logic of nothing being false
18:52	Chousuke	javuchi1: nil is false in CL too. and nil is nothing :P
18:52	Chousuke	it's also the empty list which is silly.
18:52	Chousuke	though sometimes useful
18:54	hiredman	javuchi1: which you do
18:54	hiredman	which is why I said "by your logic"
18:54	Chousuke	javuchi1: no-one is claiming that nil equals false, but if interpreted a a truth value, it's non-true. similarly any non-nil value that is not the boolean value false has a "true" truth value.
18:54	javuchi1	i admit that it is the best aproach
18:55	hiredman	that what is?
18:55	hiredman	anything not nil = true
18:55	hiredman	?
18:55	javuchi1	Chousuke: that's not logic
18:55	Chousuke	javuchi1: logic only has two values.
18:56	hiredman	Chousuke: ahem
18:56	hiredman	Chousuke: boolean logic
18:56	Chousuke	yeah. that.
18:56	javuchi1	Chousuke: what i claim is that if something nil is considered false, false should mean nil too
18:56	javuchi1	that's my point
18:57	hiredman	nil is only considered to be false in the logical context
18:57	javuchi1	the behaivior of "if" is weird to me
18:57	hiredman	not the context of equality
18:57	Chousuke	javuchi1: but that can't be, because nil and false are separate values. :/
18:57	Chousuke	they both just have a "false" boolean interpretation
18:57	hiredman	if it is not raining then the sentence "it is raining" is false and so is the sentence "5 + 2 = -3"
18:57	javuchi1	Chousuke: a strange "typecast"
18:58	hiredman	but it does not make the sentences equivilant except in the context of boolean logic
18:58	Chousuke	,(identical? (Boolean. false) (Boolean. false))
18:58	clojurebot	false
18:58	Chousuke	two more false values :P
18:58	javuchi1	hiredman: if you don't know if it is raining, it is not correct to say that it is false that it is raining
18:59	Chousuke	they happen to be equal to false because they're the same type though.
18:59	javuchi1	get it?
18:59	hiredman	javuchi1: that has nothing to do with anything
18:59	hiredman	I stipulated that it is not raining
18:59	Chousuke	javuchi1: Does the behaviour of if really make no sense to you or are you just claiming that to be pedantic?
19:00	Chousuke	it's perfectly sensible to treat nothing as false.
19:00	tomoj	it would annoy be greatly if it weren't the way it is
19:01	hiredman	just because two things can be treated the same in the logical context does not mean they are the same
19:01	javuchi1	Chousuke: yes, but my claim is that if you treat nil as false, you should treat false as nil, too
19:01	Chousuke	javuchi1: why does that follow?
19:01	javuchi1	simple logic
19:01	hiredman	in the context of boolean logic, where clojure treates nil as false, false is also treated as nil
19:02	Chousuke	A->B does not imply B->A
19:02	javuchi1	if nil is false, false is nil, that simple
19:02	hiredman	nil is not false
19:02	Chousuke	javuchi1: but nil is not false. that's the point.
19:02	hiredman	nil is treated the same as false in the context of boolean logic
19:02	hiredman	there is no implicint = false inside if
19:02	javuchi1	nil is not false when you are interested in, but not when you are interested... really strange
19:02	Chousuke	in mathematical terms, f(nil) = f(false), but nil is not false
19:03	tomoj	what does it even mean to "treat false as nil"?
19:03	tomoj	(nil? false) should be true?
19:03	hiredman	javuchi1: I'm interested in it
19:03	hiredman	er
19:03	hiredman	not
19:03	hiredman	like I said. it has never been an issue
19:03	Chousuke	and the f function here is simply {false -> false, nil -> false, otherwise -> true}
19:04	tomoj	javuchi1: do you have an example snippet that should behave differently in your opinion?
19:05	tomoj	I can't imagine what change you could possibly want to make
19:06	javuchi1	tomoj: to behave consistently
19:06	Chousuke	but... it is consistent
19:06	Chousuke	what part of it is not consistent?
19:06	javuchi1	if you want nil to be considered false in some contexts, then consider false to be nil too
19:06	Chousuke	why?
19:06	ambient	im currently eating crackers but the crackers aren't eating me
19:06	javuchi1	very simple
19:07	javuchi1	imagine the situations in which it is usefull to consider 0 to be nil and false
19:07	javuchi1	like in C
19:07	hiredman	javuchi1: in the context where nil is considered to be false, false is treated exactly like nil
19:07	Chousuke	nil is only considered false in a boolean context, and in the boolean context, false is considered nil.
19:08	Chousuke	but only in that context are they equal, and nowhere else.
19:08	javuchi1	are you sure, Chousuke?
19:08	Chousuke	yes.
19:08	javuchi1	,(= false nil)
19:08	clojurebot	false
19:08	Chousuke	that's not a boolean context.
19:08	Chousuke	that's value context.
19:09	hiredman	are these two values the same? false
19:09	Chousuke	,(= (boolean false) (boolean nil)); force to boolean context
19:09	clojurebot	true
19:09	javuchi1	the boolean context of "if" is, then incorrect or inconsistent
19:09	hiredman	how?
19:09	javuchi1	because it treats nil as false
19:10	hiredman	and false as nil
19:10	Chousuke	how is that inconsistent?
19:10	javuchi1	and false != nil
19:10	hiredman	which is what you wanted
19:10	Chousuke	javuchi1: sign(x) treats many x's the same as well. how is that inconsistent?
19:10	hiredman	javuchi1: in the boolean context they are treated exactly the same way
19:10	Chousuke	sign(5) = sign(23819238)
19:10	Chousuke	very inconsistent :)
19:11	javuchi1	if you want to be consistent, you should either a) consider nil as true b) consider false and nil as sinomous
19:11	hiredman	they are sinomous in the boolean context
19:11	Chousuke	synonymous :P
19:11	hiredman	show me where they aren't?
19:11	javuchi1	yeah, that
19:11	javuchi1	;)
19:12	Chousuke	javuchi1: what I still fail to understand is why you think that only one value may be treated as non-truth
19:12	hiredman	,(if false :a :b)
19:12	clojurebot	:b
19:12	hiredman	,(if nil :a :b)
19:12	clojurebot	:b
19:12	hiredman	synonymous
19:12	javuchi1	,(or false nil)
19:12	clojurebot	nil
19:12	tomoj	,(if 3 :a :b)
19:12	clojurebot	:a
19:12	tomoj	,(if 4 :a :b)
19:12	clojurebot	:a
19:12	ambient	btw, what is the plural of lisp? lispes? lisps?
19:12	tomoj	oh noes
19:12	tomoj	3 and 4 should be sinonimus
19:12	Chousuke	ambient: lisps
19:12	hiredman	tomoj: that is what I was saying before about everything should = true
19:13	tomoj	indeed
19:13	tomoj	why is true privileged, though?
19:13	ambient	do lisps have true and false? are they even needed? i would think not
19:13	tomoj	everything should = 42
19:13	tomoj	except for false
19:13	tomoj	(which is equal to nil)
19:13	hiredman	ambient: they don't
19:13	tomoj	false is here because of java I think
19:13	Chousuke	yeah
19:13	tomoj	(and true as well)
19:14	Chousuke	if the JVM had only null, Clojure wouldn't have false either.
19:14	javuchi1	tomoj: no, because you define as true everything which is not nil
19:14	tomoj	no I don't
19:14	ambient	yeah, so false is just a value, not a truth definition integral to the language
19:14	tomoj	...that would be wrong
19:14	hiredman	but there is nothing inconsistent with clojure's handling of nil and false
19:14	The-Kenny	I approve tomoj in the 42 thing :)
19:14	javuchi1	tomoj: my point is that, sometimes nil is false but sometimes not, which is nonsense
19:14	Chousuke	but since the JVM has both, so does clojure. and it treats them both as false values.
19:14	notallama	nil and false also have to be distinct for java interop. false for false, nil for null
19:14	tomoj	javuchi1: you are not making sense
19:14	javuchi1	is 4 sometimes true and sometimes not?
19:14	Chousuke	javuchi1: nil always has a false truth value.
19:15	tomoj	just because nil is treated as false by 'if' doesn't mean it sometimes IS false
19:15	javuchi1	no, 4 is always true
19:15	Chousuke	hiredman: but it's still not the value "false"
19:15	javuchi1	but, nil is sometimes false and sometimes not
19:15	tomoj	,(= 4 true)
19:15	clojurebot	false
19:15	javuchi1	understand?
19:15	hiredman	Chousuke: eh?
19:15	tomoj	4 is not true
19:15	Chousuke	hiredman: oops.
19:15	hiredman	true is the value true
19:15	Chousuke	hiredman: wrong target.
19:15	Chousuke	,(class? true)
19:15	clojurebot	false
19:15	javuchi1	tomoj: it should be
19:15	Chousuke	whoop
19:15	Chousuke	,(class true)
19:16	hiredman	Chousuke: hah
19:16	clojurebot	java.lang.Boolean
19:16	tomoj	javuchi1: uhh
19:16	tomoj	what?
19:16	Chousuke	,(class false)
19:16	clojurebot	java.lang.Boolean
19:16	Chousuke	,(class nil)
19:16	clojurebot	nil
19:16	ambient	why does (number? 3) return true instead of something else though?
19:16	tomoj	if 4 is true, then you can't do math
19:16	hiredman	ambient: why not?
19:16	ambient	if true and false aren't integral to truth values in clojure
19:16	ambient	why doesn't it return 3 or nil?
19:16	Chousuke	ambient: it calls to java
19:16	Chousuke	which returns booleans
19:16	hiredman	there is no reason it couldn't return 3
19:16	ambient	so it's not consistent after all
19:16	hiredman	or nil
19:16	hiredman	ambient: it is
19:17	javuchi1	tomoj: then we have found another inconsistence: everything except nil should be true, but clojure claims it is not
19:17	hiredman	what if it returned 'true
19:17	tomoj	"everything except nil should be true" - who says?
19:17	tomoj	I don't say that
19:17	ambient	but if number? is a clojure function and not a java interop function, and it still returns stuff from the java land...?
19:17	Chousuke	javuchi1: Clojure simply has a slightly extended definition of booleans.
19:17	tomoj	if everything except nil is true, your language is useless
19:17	tomoj	you only have two values and you can't do shit
19:17	Chousuke	javuchi1: basically, nil and false are boolean false, everything else is boolean true. it's perfectly consistent.
19:18	hiredman	tomoj: javuchi1 is confusing boolean equality and value equality
19:18	tomoj	yes I know :)
19:18	javuchi1	tomoj: if fact we have only two values all the time, as we are working with binary machines
19:18	tomoj	not at the language level
19:18	tomoj	(at least, not in a language like clojure)
19:19	hiredman	javuchi1: what is the value of true?
19:19	hiredman	if say this was C and true is 1
19:19	javuchi1	everything that exists... i would define true as a function better than a value
19:19	tomoj	wat
19:19	Chousuke	javuchi1: no, true is not a function.
19:20	Chousuke	javuchi1: true is a value
19:20	Chousuke	javuchi1: the function is the thing determining what is true and what is false.
19:21	javuchi1	and what is true for you?
19:22	Chousuke	just true. one of the two boolean values.
19:22	hiredman	clojurebot: you have the con
19:22	clojurebot	hiredman: aye aye skipper
19:22	Chousuke	it doesn't matter what it is. I call it true and it is true. :)
19:22	Chousuke	I can just define it so.
19:23	Chousuke	after I define it and its properties (boolean logic) I can define arbitrary functions mapping other values to either true or false.
19:23	javuchi1	in your way of thinking
19:23	javuchi1	if C, for example, everthing which is not 0 is true
19:23	javuchi1	and it has a value
19:23	javuchi1	for example, 4
19:24	Chousuke	yes. in C, there's an implicit predicate in every if which does {0 -> false, not 0 -> true}
19:24	javuchi1	that's how i say that i define true as if it where a function
19:25	Chousuke	clojure has a similar implicit predicate, but it has two branches leading to false
19:25	javuchi1	true = not NULL or true= not false
19:25	javuchi1	not is a function
19:25	Chousuke	I should have said not equal
19:26	notallama	javuchi1: do you do any c++? think of overloading operator bool(), if so.
19:26	Chousuke	so stuff equal to nil or false give false, and stuff not equal to either gives true. :/
19:26	Chousuke	+s
19:27	javuchi1	yes, that would be consistent :)
19:27	Chousuke	that's how it works in Clojure.
19:28	tomoj	don't lots of languages work this way?
19:28	Chousuke	doesn't scheme have a separate false from nil too?
19:28	javuchi1	the problem is that there is avalue fro true and false in clojure
19:28	tomoj	I vaguely remember something like that
19:28	tomoj	ruby has nil and false the same as clojure
19:28	javuchi1	which is the confusion which is all about
19:28	tomoj	python too? Idon't remember
19:28	tomoj	there is no confusion here :D
19:29	notallama	i think in scheme, the two booleans are the only things you can use in a boolean context. not entirely sure, though.
19:29	Chousuke	javuchi1: yeah, but they're just values. if itself doesn't really care about that. :)
19:29	Chousuke	javuchi1: they're there to satisfy java.
19:29	ambient	RSR4 <3
19:29	javuchi1	tomoj: how you can say that a value is true? is there only ONE value which is true?
19:29	javuchi1	i don't agree
19:29	tomoj	I say "truthy"
19:30	tomoj	but I dunno if anyone will understand me when i say that
19:31	notallama	javuchi1: think of "if" and such as implicitly calling "boolean" things.
19:31	Chousuke	javuchi1: the "true" value is just a value representing truth. other things can be "true" too, but then they're really just mapped to the "true" value through some arbitrary function.
19:32	javuchi1	the, Chousuke, true is a characteristic, not a value
19:32	Chousuke	javuchi1: it's very much a value in boolean logic :)
19:32	Chousuke	it's easy to pick any arbitrary value to represent your truth (or non-truth)
19:32	Chousuke	I could call 4 my truth and 5 non-truth.
19:33	ambient	,(doc reify)
19:33	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:33	Chousuke	which would cause funny things as 4*5 would be 5 and 4+5 would be 4
19:33	javuchi1	you could, but is nonsense
19:33	Anniepoo	'pipe rotated' is true and 'pipe not rotated' is false (common in rr interlocking)
19:33	Chousuke	javuchi1: mathematically it's perfectly valid.
19:33	Chousuke	I'm free to choose.
19:34	javuchi1	if you brake common sense (in which math is based), yes, it is correct
19:34	Chousuke	maths is not based on common sense :P
19:34	Chousuke	maths is based on... maths.
19:34	javuchi1	but then you are not going to be consistent with the rest of the human race
19:34	Chousuke	it's self-hosting.
19:34	javuchi1	maths are human thoughts, they don't even exists...
19:35	tomoj	finally something we can agree on
19:35	Chousuke	:)
19:35	javuchi1	yes, hehe
19:35	Chousuke	I have to disagree with math not existing though :P
19:35	javuchi1	;)
19:35	technomancy	Chousuke: ah, a platonist!
19:35	tomoj	you don't exist
19:35	danlarkin	alan turing would have something to say about that
19:36	Anniepoo	javuchi1, deliberately the OSI network stack model doesn't refer to zero and one, it refers to 'mark' and 'space'
19:36	Chousuke	I just did some exercises for a "Fourier methods" course the other day and that stuff is very real.
19:36	tomoj	javuchi1: wait, does clojure exist?
19:36	javuchi1	anyway, i prefer, if you wnat to listen, the C aproach of considering everything except 0 to be true
19:36	tomoj	that would be terrible
19:36	javuchi1	tomoj: not at all, it's all virtual ;)
19:36	Anniepoo	those terms were originally when a goose quill pen was or wasn't marking a strip of paper
19:37	tomoj	unless the cdr of a singleton is 0
19:37	notallama	really, when you look close enough at anything, you'll find that there's nothing there. like, look at an atom: it's entirely (or damn well near it) empty space.
19:37	tomoj	which would be highly odd
19:37	Chousuke	javuchi1: won't C actually give you an error if you try to use eg. a struct in an if?
19:38	javuchi1	notallama: not even that, it is something you believe it is there because you have the illusion that what you see thouht you eyes is true in some way
19:38	Chousuke	^^^^physics
19:39	javuchi1	Chousuke: not, but clojure is not, too
19:39	technomancy	tomoj: ah, a chestertonian! =)
19:39	Chousuke	hm
19:39	tomoj	if (seq '()) returned 0, I would kill myself
19:40	tomoj	OR, if (seq '()) returned nil, but nil wasn't falsey, I would me mildly annoyed
19:40	Chousuke	,^^(with-meta 'a (with-meta {:foo 'bar} {:meta 'physics}))
19:40	clojurebot	{:meta physics}
19:40	tomoj	haha
19:41	ambient	metaphysics wont pay my bills or mow my lawn
19:41	Chousuke	metadata about metadata :/
19:41	javuchi1	why would you kill yourself, tomoj?
19:41	javuchi1	what is the definition of seq?
19:42	tomoj	(if (seq '()) :foo :bar)
19:42	tomoj	,(if (seq '()) :foo :bar)
19:42	clojurebot	:bar
19:42	tomoj	this is very useful
19:42	javuchi1	,(doc seq)
19:42	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq on the collection. If the collection is empty, returns nil. (seq nil) returns nil. seq also works on Strings, native Java arrays (of reference types) and any objects that implement Iterable."
19:42	ambient	"metaphysics can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."
19:42	tomoj	what, that's not the quote
19:42	javuchi1	it can return 0, which means that it is empty
19:42	Chousuke	javuchi1: but then you'd have to equate 0 to nil :/
19:43	tomoj	if it returns 0, then every time you get a seq, you have to check whether it's a seq or 0
19:43	tomoj	and you could add stuff to it
19:43	tomoj	and get 12 or something..
19:43	Chousuke	which is one of the most popular causes of programming errors I think :P
19:43	tomoj	like (+ (rest '(1)) 12)
19:43	javuchi1	you can throw an exception ;)
19:44	tomoj	it would just be so monstrously ugly that I would be forced to end my life
19:44	cupertinochad	May I ask a newbie question?
19:44	Chousuke	sure.
19:45	cupertinochad	I heard somewhere that (. blah) was no longer the best way to do Java interop. I want to do (. System nanoTime) Is this still the preferred way?
19:45	javuchi1	or, you can make an special function test, for example called end? which tells you when the end has reached
19:45	Chousuke	,(System/nanoTime)
19:45	clojurebot	1257554820716579000
19:46	javuchi1	it would be even better than nil
19:46	javuchi1	or nil?
19:46	tomoj	javuchi1: but why in the world would we want to do that?
19:46	tomoj	javuchi1: is clojure your first lisp? just curious
19:46	javuchi1	no, i used CL
19:46	Chousuke	cupertinochad: Foo/bar for static fields/methods, (.field obj args) for non-statics
19:46	tomoj	weird
19:46	technomancy	tomoj: who else but a CL user would want to unify false and nil? =)
19:47	tomoj	sure, but.. into 0?!
19:47	javuchi1	i'm not a CL guy
19:48	javuchi1	perhaps a C guy, probably worse
19:48	cupertinochad	Chousuke: Thanks a million
19:48	cupertinochad	Chousuke: Any idea why this way is preferred over "."?
19:48	Chousuke	technomancy: I don't think unifying false an nil is a bad thing per se, but if it means (= false nil) -> true instead of just removing "false" from the language I think it's not worth the trouble.
19:49	Chousuke	cupertinochad: it's lispier and looks better.
19:49	javuchi1	Chousuke: i would agree on simply removing false
19:49	javuchi1	and make anything else just true
19:49	tomoj	removing false is not good for java, though
19:49	Chousuke	cupertinochad: my personal justification is that a mere . in the head of a list (in operator position) is a wasted of a prominent code position :)
19:49	Chousuke	-d
19:50	Chousuke	(foo bar) pretty much always means "operator foo with args bar" in Clojure
19:50	Chousuke	operator . only tells you "java interop". System/nanoTime tells you... the time :P
19:51	javuchi1	java is weird
19:51	tomoj	I don't particularly like java much either
19:51	javuchi1	the jvm is a miracle, but not that good, too
19:52	clojurebot	☕
19:52	tomoj	but I like being able to use it from clojure very very much
19:52	Chousuke	the JVM is not optimal for a lisp I suppose, but it's not as bad as people think
19:52	Chousuke	I doubt Java even uses half of what the JVM really could do :/
19:52	ambient	btw, when can i use these puppies? http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes
19:52	javuchi1	i would prefer more like it's own virtual machine like erlang, with facilities to call other languages like java directly
19:53	Chousuke	ambient: I think it's another branch in the repo
19:53	Chousuke	javuchi1: go ahead and implement a virtual machine that competes with the JVM and perhaps you can make Rich consider migration :D
19:53	ambient	Chousuke is it going to be merged into the main branch sometime in the not so distant future?
19:54	javuchi1	Chousuke: as far as I know (and I don't know much), the jvm is very object oriented, and very suboptimal for anything else
19:54	tomoj	I think the JVM is great for clojure :)
19:54	Chousuke	ambient: You'll have to ask Rich about that.
19:54	javuchi1	and it is a monster
19:54	chouser	ambient: post 1.2, I think
19:54	ambient	chouser ok, thanks
19:55	Chousuke	javuchi1: There are great people working on improving the situation, though.
19:55	javuchi1	Chousuke: the jvm is a comodity, but I don't think it would be THAT difficult to make your own vm as everybody says
19:55	tomoj	JVM means clojure runs pretty easily everywhere and there's already a library I can use for pretty much anything
19:55	cupertinochad	Chousuke: Thanks for the explanation; I agree.
19:55	ambient	javuchi1 oh man, you just didn't say that... :D
19:55	Chousuke	javuchi1: it's not difficult to make a VM. it IS difficult to make it rival the JVM.
19:55	tomoj	not least because to really rival the JVM you'd need to write tons and tons of libraries..
19:55	javuchi1	Chousuke: you don't need to. look at erlang, it is able to call Java and C very easily
19:56	Chousuke	in fact, any VM you can code in a year's time will get blown out of the water by the JVM. :)
19:56	javuchi1	tomoj: it is true, also, that most staff from the jvm is useless for a lispy/inmutable based structures like clojure is based on
19:56	Chousuke	it's just a huge responsibility off of Rich's shoulders :P
19:57	chouser	javuchi1: really? like what?
19:57	javuchi1	i won't use much of the staff from the java library just because it is difficult to integrate in the world of inmutable things of clojure, and it would be very little idiomatic
19:58	tomoj	I certainly don't agree..
19:58	tomoj	jetty, htmlunit, tagsoup, matrix math stuff, jgraph, on and on
19:58	Chousuke	You have a point, but the situation isn't as bad as you think :)
19:58	tomoj	all I love being able to use from clojure directly, even if using them is a bit less pretty than pure clojure
19:58	tomoj	it's MUCH less work than rewriting them all
19:59	javuchi1	there are plenty of vm out there
20:00	ambient	of JVM's calibre? very few
20:00	javuchi1	some of them are able to comunicate with other vm like the jvm
20:00	javuchi1	JVM is not that good
20:00	Chousuke	it's only perhaps the best :P
20:00	javuchi1	is simply the amount of libraries avaiable
20:01	tomoj	I don't think that's the whole story
20:01	ambient	not to speak of proprietary codebases that some companies have
20:01	tomoj	but that's really important anyway :)
20:01	javuchi1	as i said before, there are ways of calling the jvm from the outside
20:02	javuchi1	erlang is capable of doing so
20:02	tomoj	so go use erlang?
20:02	javuchi1	it's not lispy ;)
20:02	tomoj	ah
20:02	javuchi1	but i considered
20:02	chouser	lfe
20:02	krumholt	javuchi, what exactly is it you don't like about the JVM and which JVM? You could always go and use a JVM not from sun
20:03	Chousuke	I think javuchi1 just thinks the JVM is not as good for lisps as the erlang VM
20:03	javuchi1	lot of things, krumholt
20:03	Chousuke	which is probably true. however, that doesn't mean it still isn't excellent :D
20:04	chouser	javuchi1: have you considered "lisp flavoured erlang"?
20:04	krumholt	i think it is a very excellent plattform too. maybe it could be better but all the work.. :)
20:04	Chousuke	it's got an amazing runtime-profiling optimizing JIT-compiler :P
20:04	Chousuke	how many VMs have that?
20:05	ambient	CLR is pretty good at least on windows
20:05	javuchi1	Chousuke: there are many others that do
20:05	Chousuke	javuchi1: such as?
20:06	ambient	iirc CLR has TCO
20:07	javuchi1	the erlang VM is very good, the CLISP one is also good (and they are making a JIT now), the SBCL compiler is not a VM, but can do very good optimizing compiling on the fly, and many many others... it is not that hard to make another one, but i understand the comodity of the jvm... just that... it feels to much like java
20:08	Chousuke	javuchi1: that "It's not that hard" is utterly false :)
20:08	Chousuke	javuchi1: it's exceedingly difficult.
20:08	javuchi1	you can use an existing one
20:08	ambient	something interesting about JVM and TCO I found. "This is also the reason why JVM doesn't offer tail calls at all. The security sandbox uses stack walking to work out whether an operation is permitted in the current context. Proper tail call optimization would destroy the information needed to make those decisions."
20:08	Chousuke	such as the JVM :/
20:09	javuchi1	for example, take SBCL and transform it until you get something very apropiate for a language like clojure
20:09	Chousuke	I recently read JRose's post about continuations on the JVM. it was pretty interesting.
20:09	chouser	ambient: I believe there is a patch for TCO on the JVM that takes into account such things.
20:09	Chousuke	javuchi1: but then you wouldn't get the libraries.
20:10	javuchi1	why not?
20:10	Chousuke	javuchi1: and I don't think CL would be a good basis for Clojure anyway :/
20:10	Chousuke	it's... mutable :)
20:10	javuchi1	it was just an example
20:10	javuchi1	java is also mutable
20:11	krumholt	javuchi1, the jvm is only a plattform unless you plan on becoming a clojure developer i think there is no real reason to worry about it. from my point of view as programmer i don't really care what plattform is used and why would i?
20:11	javuchi1	and the jvm is pretty much mutable ;)
20:11	Chousuke	Many things aren't though.
20:11	Chousuke	like strings and numbers.
20:11	javuchi1	oh, strings and numbers... even C can do right on that ;)
20:12	chouser	C strings are mutable
20:12	javuchi1	i said can do well, not that they were not mutable
20:12	Chousuke	C "strings" are blobs of memory ;(
20:12	Chousuke	literally. if you want to treat something as just memory you cast it into a C string. :P
20:13	javuchi1	you can program inmutable in C if you want
20:13	javuchi1	ah, and now that we talk about C
20:13	Chousuke	though I suppose the real definition requires that it be null-terminated :/
20:13	javuchi1	C would be an excelent "platform" of "vm" for anything
20:14	javuchi1	look for example at ECL
20:14	tomoj	:'(
20:14	javuchi1	it is doing very well and it uses C as the assembler for everything
20:14	Chousuke	C is not a platform though. :/
20:14	Chousuke	C on unix is a platform.
20:14	Chousuke	C on windows is a platform.
20:14	javuchi1	I said "platform" not platform
20:14	javuchi1	understand what means the "
20:15	javuchi1	http://ecls.sourceforge.net/
20:15	robin_b	does anyone here know about setting the classpath for the interactive REPL started by the textmate clojure bundle?
20:21	krumholt	robin_b, i think you could use add-classpath
20:21	krumholt	,(doc add-classpath)
20:21	clojurebot	"([url]); Adds the url (String or URL object) to the classpath per URLClassLoader.addURL"
20:22	robin_b	ah - ok - so just do it within the repl once started
20:22	robin_b	that makes sense
20:22	robin_b	I was looking for a textmate command or a place to configure the project
20:23	chouser	add-classpatch is notoriously treacherous
20:23	chouser	if it works in a given situation, great, but don't be surprised if it fails in slightly different circumstances.
20:23	robin_b	hmm
20:29	ambient	is it in any way predictable?
20:29	javuchi1	all of this came with (= false nil)
20:29	chouser	ambient: you mean to know when add-classpath with fail?
20:29	Chousuke	heh :P
20:30	ambient	chouser yes
20:30	javuchi1	let me ask something a little delicate
20:30	javuchi1	do you hate CL gus?
20:30	Chousuke	no. :)
20:30	chouser	ambient: yes, it's not actually random, but it depends on how classloaders are being used
20:30	javuchi1	what do you think about them?
20:30	Chousuke	Depends on the person :P
20:31	Chousuke	I think there are quite many CLers here too.
20:32	javuchi1	do you think it is compatible to keep using CL and Clojure?
20:32	javuchi1	at the same time?
20:32	javuchi1	i have the feel that CL is getting to old
20:33	Chousuke	That's kind of my opinion too.
20:34	Chousuke	I never really got into CL... It has some really neat things, though.
20:34	Chousuke	And I really with Clojure had similar debugging facilities :P
20:34	Chousuke	wish*
20:34	The-Kennz	I really love CLOS
20:35	The-Kennz	But it's a bit old, I agree... bad library support etc.
20:35	javuchi1	I don't, it is weird for me
20:36	Chousuke	Then again, Clojure does many things better than CL in my opinion. Vectors, maps and sets for instance.
20:36	The-Kennz	It's good to have a real map in clojure.
20:36	ambient	i'd think immutability and robust concurrency constructs are more essential :)
20:37	The-Kennz	I remember the ugly lists of (key . value)
20:37	Chousuke	and lisp1:ness and namespaces and syntax-quote are all cool stuff too, even though they're "minor" features
20:37	javuchi1	the main problem about CL is that everybody said that CL would be able to do anything in the future, but now we can see that there is a vital thing that it is not able to do, and little expectations of being to in the near future: multitasking
20:38	Chousuke	What's the deal with that anyway?
20:39	hiredman	actually, it was durring the standarization process of cl that the phrase "sufficently smart compiler" was coined
20:39	Chousuke	A sufficiently smart Clojure compiler would fix my reader :(
20:39	Chousuke	I still have no idea what's wrong with it.
20:40	javuchi1	with the reader?
20:40	javuchi1	of clojure?
20:40	Chousuke	no, one that I'm writing.
20:41	Chousuke	it compiles just fine and even works with contrib
20:41	Chousuke	but then explodes with the weirdest error if I try to recompile it with "itself"
20:41	javuchi1	are you a clojure devveloper?
20:41	Chousuke	which makes no sense as in order to compile it I already compiled it once with itself.
20:42	Chousuke	but compiling a second time fails.
20:42	hiredman	Chousuke is a Chousuke of the Finnish Chousukes
20:42	Chousuke	:P
20:42	Chousuke	javuchi1: I have a CA.
20:42	javuchi1	perhaps because you compiled it the first time with another version or with an option enabled/disabled?
20:43	hiredman	pffft, even I have one of those
20:43	Chousuke	well, it goes like this:
20:43	javuchi1	what is a CA?
20:43	_ato	javuchi1: http://clojure.org/contributing
20:45	javuchi1	oh i don't like it
20:46	Chousuke	First I compile the java files. Then, I have core.clj and reader.clj; I compile core.clj and reader.clj to class files with a plain java clojure. After that, I add them to classpath and recompile all clj files to classes, and make a jar of those. then I have a clojure.jar which uses my clojure reader but if I then try this process again with "plain java clojure" replaced with this
20:46	_ato	the only thing I don't like is it has to be posted instead of scanned + emailed
20:46	Chousuke	new clojure.jar... boom.
20:46	scottj	Is there a debugger that you can easily run along side slime so when you have a stack trace pop up you can easily see what variables values are?
20:47	Chousuke	scottj: there's http://georgejahad.com/clojure/cljdb.html
20:47	Chousuke	I should try that. :/
20:47	javuchi1	i don't agree very much with that politics
20:48	hiredman	politics?
20:48	hiredman	(maybe you mean those policies?)
20:48	javuchi1	that
20:49	javuchi1	you hereby assign to me joint ownership, and to the extent that such assignment is or becomes invalid, ineffective or unenforceable, you hereby
20:49	javuchi1	grant to me a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, worldwide, no-charge, royalty-free, unrestricted license to exercise all rights under those
20:49	javuchi1	copyrights. This includes, at my option, the right to sublicense these same rights to third parties through multiple levels of sublicensees or other
20:49	javuchi1	licensing arrangements;
20:49	javuchi1	bad bad bad
20:50	chouser	javuchi1: my friend, there is no need for you to contribute.
20:50	_ato	hehe
20:50	javuchi1	you're right
20:50	hiredman	well, sorry to lose you, bye?
20:50	javuchi1	and now, much less need
20:50	Chousuke	you can just be a user
20:50	Chousuke	that's good too. File bug reports :P
20:51	Chousuke	Personally I think the CA is trivial.
20:51	chouser	but as a user I hope you can take comfort in knowing that when licenses need to be changed, that it can happen smoothly because the contributors have all signed on.
20:51	_ato	IMO Clojure/Sun's is much better than many other CA's eg http://www.canonical.com/contributors
20:51	javuchi1	when i saw the screencast
20:51	javuchi1	it was strange the face rihky put when talking it wan open source...
20:51	javuchi1	now i understand
20:51	Chousuke	huh?
20:51	_ato	what?
20:52	Chousuke	It is open source. Free software, even :P
20:52	_ato	javuchi1: did you miss the bit where it says Rich promises to release the code under an OSI/FSF approved license?
20:52	javuchi1	only until rich wants
20:53	_ato	unlike Canonical's you also retain ownership of your contribution
20:53	Chousuke	you just assign Rich joint copyright for your contributions. Which basically means that Rich could close the source but that won't happen; if it does, Clojure either dies or a fork happens :/
20:53	chouser	Chousuke: no, actually, because he promises not to in the same agreement.
20:54	Chousuke	what the CA allows is that if there ever is a licence better than the EPL for Clojure, it can be easily changed.
20:55	chouser	in fact it happened once already
20:56	ambient	there are some restrictions on using clojure in work related stuff?
20:56	chouser	nope
20:56	Chousuke	the EPL is GPL-incompatible, but then again, so are most other licences ;/
20:57	_ato	yeah, that's the only really bad thing about Clojure's licensing IMO
20:57	Chousuke	and even then it's GPL's fault.
20:58	Chousuke	but oh well. plenty of non-GPL java libraries out there :)
20:59	jbendig	I imagine the EPL makes it easier for many businesses to adopt use of Clojure. Don't many businesses stay away from GPL related code without trying to understand the licensing terms?
20:59	javuchi1	note that rich didn't promise anything
20:59	javuchi1	Any contribution I make
20:59	javuchi1	available under any license will also be made available under a suitable FSF (Free Software Foundation) or OSI (Open Source Initiative) approved
20:59	javuchi1	license.
21:00	javuchi1	what is contribution?
21:00	chouser	ambient: I'm not very sure, but I think the only "work related" restriction is that if you distribute clojure in object form with your code, you need to also make the source available (including your changes) under the EPL.
21:00	javuchi1	if it is not a contribution then it can be closed software
21:01	ambient	chouser clojure code? perhaps a link for github would suffice? ;)
21:01	jbendig	I thought only the EPL code had to be made available as open source. Your changes do not have to be.
21:01	Chousuke	jbendig: your changes to clojure have to be released. it's reciprocal like that.
21:02	chouser	ambient: sorry, I meant if you make a change to clojure itself and distributed the class files you'd have to make the source available under EPL.
21:02	Chousuke	jbendig: however, you can link it with a proprietary module.
21:02	ambient	ok
21:02	jbendig	Chousuke: Oh, okay.
21:02	chouser	right, only changes and additions to the program, not other thinks you link with it or any class files or jars it produces.
21:03	chouser	other things
21:03	javuchi1	what is rich afraid of? why this agreement enforcement if you want to contribute?
21:03	ambient	just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you
21:03	_ato	hehe
21:03	_ato	as said earlier it's so that the license can be changed to a different open-source license
21:04	_ato	eg. if the GPL-incompatiblity becomes really problematic Rich can do something about it
21:04	javuchi1	am i the paranoid, or the one who make that agreement?
21:04	javuchi1	why not using LGPL?
21:04	chouser	also he's very careful to track the provinence of every patch so that any claims that clojure contains code owned by others can be effectively refuted.
21:05	Chousuke	javuchi1: the CA basically makes licencing a non-issue.
21:05	Chousuke	if it becomes a problem, it can be changed.
21:05	Chousuke	or if someone wants to pay Rich 2 million USD for a custom-licenced version of Clojure, that can be done :P
21:05	chouser	at the cost of losing some potential contributors who don't like. A know cost that rich has chosen to accept.
21:06	chouser	man I can't type
21:06	_ato	Rich doesn't like the LGPL since someone can take clojure and make it GPL and then he can't use their changes
21:06	javuchi1	oh yes i'm pretty sure he can accept a lot of thing for 2 millions
21:07	javuchi1	_ato: then they should change the name, if he has the trademark, as i supose he has
21:07	somnium	javuchi1: is there a particular scenario you're concerned about?
21:08	javuchi1	i'm not american, this is the first
21:08	_ato	javuchi1: it's not about trademarks, it's about him being able to use their changes
21:08	Chousuke	Does that matter?
21:08	Chousuke	I'm not American either :/
21:08	javuchi1	the second is, if somebody, for example sun, or anything else, want to buy clojure, they can do with clojure whatever they want
21:09	Chousuke	javuchi1: the old versions will still be available to us.
21:09	jbendig	Then the source code up to that point could be forked and kept under the existing license.
21:09	chouser	javuchi1: but they can't take away our ability to fork at the point before they take it. This is tru of all free software.
21:09	Chousuke	javuchi1: and Rich is bound to release his contributions to the open as well.
21:09	Chousuke	but if that 2mil USD thing actually happens it'll be awesome though.
21:10	Chousuke	someone just gets a ProprietaryClojure and Rich can work full-time on Clojure.
21:10	javuchi1	but you are not the ownership
21:10	javuchi1	even for past versions
21:11	ambient	it would be pretty awesome if sun adopted clojure and started developing jvm into that direction more
21:11	javuchi1	he can change the license even for past versions
21:11	chouser	javuchi1: nope
21:11	_ato	javuchi1: no, it's non-revokable
21:11	javuchi1	you hereby
21:11	javuchi1	grant to me a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, worldwide, no-charge, royalty-free, unrestricted license to exercise all rights under those
21:11	javuchi1	copyrights
21:12	javuchi1	that's what it says
21:12	javuchi1	he can do whatever he wants
21:12	Chousuke	javuchi1: the contributors also retain those rights.
21:12	_ato	nad he's already released old versions of Clojure under the EPL, and he can't undo releasing it
21:13	_ato	Chousuke: which branch should I look at for your reader? reader-integrated?
21:13	javuchi1	where does it say so, Chousuke?
21:13	Chousuke	_ato: oh, the latest stuff is not there.
21:13	Chousuke	_ato: the latest stuff is a mess.
21:13	Chousuke	:)
21:14	Chousuke	I'll push it, wait a moment.
21:15	jbendig	javuchi: Look at section 2A of the EPL. http://www.opensource.org/licenses/eclipse-1.0.php
21:16	javuchi1	jbendig: the problem is that, with the CA, Rich makes himself the owner of everthing
21:16	_ato	he made joint owner
21:16	_ato	you retain ownership
21:16	jbendig	For future work, yes. Once the code is distrubted under the EPL then that set of work is tied to that license.
21:17	javuchi1	yes, but your contribution alone has not much value
21:17	jbendig	distributed*
21:17	javuchi1	jbendig: that is not what it says in his CA
21:18	Chousuke	javuchi1: yes, but it holds still.
21:18	javuchi1	you grant him an unrestricted license to exercise all rights under your code
21:18	Chousuke	javuchi1: revoking a licence for no reason after you grant it is fraud :P
21:18	chouser	if you want to contribute to emacs you have to assign copyright to the FSF, retaining no ownership of your own code. This is less extreme.
21:19	jbendig	The CA just makes it easier for Clojure to mature. Look how Squeak suffered later on by not having such a system in place.
21:20	ambient	CA is certificate authority or something?
21:20	hiredman	clojurebot: ca?
21:20	clojurebot	CA is Contributor Agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
21:21	Chousuke	javuchi1: all the horror scenarios are purely theoretical and will simply not happen :)
21:22	Chousuke	and because of that the CA is a minor annoyance that gives flexibility benefits
21:23	javuchi1	I know that the FSF is not going to shell Emacs to Sun...
21:23	chouser	how do you know that?
21:24	somnium	if Sun bought emacs would you stop using it?
21:24	javuchi1	and, the most important
21:24	javuchi1	you give the copyright to the FSF, but you don't allow them to sublicense it with another license
21:24	Chousuke	chouser: Well, it's the FSF :P
21:25	javuchi1	with this CA, you allow Rich to change the license
21:25	javuchi1	it's much, much worse
21:25	_ato	javuchi1: giving FSF copyright allows them to change the license
21:25	_ato	javuchi1: in fact it means you can no longer change the license
21:25	_ato	since you don't retain ownership in your own code
21:26	Chousuke	yeah. you won't be able to use that contributed code under any other licence :/
21:28	chouser	red-letter edition with question-links at http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
21:28	chouser	the links still need some kind of tweaking, but I'm not sure exactly what.
21:29	chouser	but I've got to quit messing with it for now.
21:30	Chousuke	_ato: I pushed my current code into reader-mess
21:30	_ato	Chousuke: so the idea is, you compile once with the java reader generating clojure-slim.jar, then copy that to bootstrap/clojure.jar and recompile and this time it's with your reader?
21:31	Chousuke	clojure-slim.jar has to be a full-java clojure
21:31	ambient	chouser nifty, i think the arrows are too tiny, though
21:31	ambient	or too close together
21:31	Chousuke	the buildfile takes care of the rest
21:31	Chousuke	oh, and you'll need to use -Dclojure.reader=true to use my reader... I think
21:31	Chousuke	As I said, it's a mess. :P
21:32	Chousuke	there are debug prints in core.clj and syntaxquote-macro is broken and temporarily not even in use
21:32	chouser	ambient: yeah, probably both.
21:32	Chousuke	syntax-quote* (the function) should work instead of LispReader's syntaxquote method.
21:33	_ato	ah, so I build clojure-slim.jar with rich's "new" branch?
21:33	Chousuke	I haven't tested.
21:33	Chousuke	use master.
21:33	_ato	ok
21:33	jbendig	chouser: Very nice! I can see myself using this to catch up on questions over night. Would it be possible to fold the questions for faster scanning?
21:34	chouser	ambient: but small links are better than none, and big links may be worse (depending on what they do to the layout)
21:34	Chousuke	you can also edit the build file a bit to try and enable the "complete" build process (which still fails for me)
21:34	chouser	jbendig: yes, possibly, but will require more work.
21:36	Chousuke	_ato: if you get any exceptions using the reader in a repl, report to me. I haven't found anything.
21:37	_ato	Chousuke: cool it works. was getting some NPE with build because I was using the wrong clojure-slim.jar.
21:37	_ato	I'll have a play with it and see if I can break it
21:37	Chousuke	did you use the -D switch?
21:38	Chousuke	try typing for example '(foo] in the repl. if the error message includes column you're fine :)
21:38	_ato	java.lang.Exception: Unexpected closing character ] (line 1, column 7)
21:38	_ato	very nice :)
21:40	Chousuke	there's also a known bug with one of contrib's tests. for some reason, I get a stack overflow :/
21:41	Chousuke	but now I need to sleep. have fun :P
21:42	leafw	is there any way to do an "if-let" for multiple bindings? I.e. bind all if none are nil?
21:48	krumholt	will doseq execute every command?
21:48	somnium	attempt ->
21:48	somnium	,(if-let [[x y z] (if (every? #(not (nil? %)) [1 nil 3]) [1 2 3] nil)] (println x y z))
21:48	clojurebot	nil
21:48	somnium	,(if-let [[x y z] (if (every? #(not (nil? %)) [1 2 3]) [1 2 3] nil)] (println x y z))
21:48	clojurebot	1 2 3
21:48	somnium	a bit clunky
21:48	_ato	krumholt: you mean will it consume the entire sequence? yes
21:49	krumholt	so i can use it for side effects?
21:51	_ato	krumholt: yes, that's what it's intended for
21:51	_ato	,(doc doseq)
21:51	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
21:52	krumholt	what i want to do is measure speed. i need fast matrix multiplication and my first implementation in clojure is allready about 60% faster then the java implementation that seems strange
21:55	krumholt	what i want is a block in which no lazyness can happen. is that possible? like (without-lazyness ...)
21:56	_ato	,(doc doall)
21:56	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, retains the head and returns it, thus causing the entire seq to reside in memory at one time."
21:57	_ato	as in:
21:57	_ato	,(time (doall (map inc (range 10))))
21:57	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
21:57	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.183 msecs"
21:58	krumholt	thanks
22:01	krumholt	ok now its really slow :) is there a fast-math library or something for clojure?
22:01	somnium	krumholt: you can use primitives and arrays
22:02	danlarkin	Is there a better way to check that everything in required is in sent? (reduce #(and (sent %1) (sent %2)) required)
22:03	krumholt	somnium, ok thanks
22:03	_ato	,(empty? (difference #{:a :b} #{:a})
22:03	clojurebot	EOF while reading
22:03	_ato	,(empty? (difference #{:a :b} #{:a}))
22:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: difference in this context
22:04	_ato	,(use 'clojure.set)
22:04	clojurebot	nil
22:04	_ato	,(empty? (difference #{:a :b} #{:a}))
22:04	clojurebot	false
22:04	_ato	,(empty? (difference #{:a :b} #{:a :b}))
22:04	clojurebot	true
22:04	danlarkin	_ato: difference doesn't work because sent can have things that aren't required
22:04	_ato	,(empty? (difference #{:a :b} #{:a :b :c}))
22:04	clojurebot	true
22:05	_ato	oh
22:05	_ato	wait no (difference required sent) ?
22:05	_ato	shouldn't that work?
22:06	_ato	your way might be faster though as it doesn't tell you what's missing
22:06	somnium	sent is a map and required is a collection of keys?
22:07	somnium	(every? {:foo :bar :baz :quux} [:foo :bar])
22:08	somnium	,(every? {:foo :bar :baz :quux} [:foo :bar])
22:08	clojurebot	false
22:08	somnium	(every? {:foo :bar :baz :quux} [:foo :baz])
22:08	somnium	bah
22:08	danlarkin	_ato: difference does work that way... I didn't realize it wasn't commutative
22:08	danlarkin	_ato: so it'll work just fine, thanks
22:09	_ato	somnium: ah yeah, that's nicer
22:11	Anniepoo	,(doc load-file)
22:11	clojurebot	"([name]); Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the file."
22:12	Anniepoo	The page http://clojure.org/evaluation says
22:13	Anniepoo	The loading functions occur in a temporary context, in which ns has a fresh binding. That means that, should any form have an effect on that var (e.g. `in-namespace), the effect will unwind at the completion of the load.
22:13	leafw	what could be an efficient way of searching a table for for keys that match a specific regex?
22:14	leafw	do I have to loop all keys, or are clojure keys somehow different? PArticularly if searching for a "starts with" predicate?
22:17	Anniepoo	I can't figure out what this means. It obviously doesn't mean I can't put (def foo 7) in a file and load it and have
22:17	Anniepoo	foo be 7 afterwards.
22:17	hiredman	:/
22:18	hiredman	annoyingly the developement appengine environment doesn't seem to want me to delete records from the datastore
22:19	_ato	leafw: you'll have to loop all the keys in the general case. If you really wanted I guess you could implement something that speeds up partial matches, but Java's standard regex library won't do that for you AFAIK. You might be able to find another java library that does it though
22:19	_ato	s/partial matches/prefix matches/
22:20	Anniepoo	does it mean simply that ns will be rebound to some local version, so if you do in-namespace it won't have any effect?
22:21	somnium	hiredman: what's your url?
22:21	_ato	Anniepoo: yes.. it just means if you do (ns bar) (load-file "foo.clj") (def x 3) and foo.clj contains (ns foo), then x will be decalred in namespace bar not namespace foo
22:22	hiredman	somnium: my url?
22:22	somnium	is your site up on ae?
22:22	hiredman	yes
22:22	hiredman	but the only thing that works right now is a single facebook app
22:22	Anniepoo	ah, ok, thanks
22:22	somnium	hiredman: I want to look at it :)
22:22	konr	!proxy
22:23	hiredman	apps.facebook.com/agegraph I think
22:23	konr	clojurebot: proxy
22:23	clojurebot	proxy is <Chouser> proxy teases with its ease of use, then suddenly betrays.
22:23	_ato	Anniepoo: but if foo.clj contains (ns foo) (def y 4) then y is declared in ns foo. It's just means changes to ns within a loaded file don't leak out of that file
22:23	Anniepoo	ok, yes
22:24	Anniepoo	effectively load-file contains
22:25	Anniepoo	a wrapper that binds ns locally
22:25	_ato	kind of like: (let [old-ns ns] .... do the load .... (ns old-ns))
22:26	Anniepoo	kk, got it
22:29	Anniepoo	Oooh!
22:34	leafw	_ato: I suspected so. Thanks in any case.
22:38	mikehinchey	Anniepoo: hi!
22:38	Anniepoo	8cD
22:41	djork	interesting, chouser
22:42	djork	I guess always had the sieve right in my head and wondered why examples were usually wrong
22:42	djork	oh wait that was at 3:11... way to go, me
22:44	Anniepoo	I bet this is one line somehow. I want to write (load-without-side-effects [reader]) that does a load but doesn't allow any side effects (modulo java interop)
22:45	krumholt	is there a way to just write (parseInt "5") instead of (Integer/parseInt "3")
22:45	slashus2	create a wrapper function
22:46	somnium	I think there's a static import function somewhere in contrib
22:47	somnium	,(doc import-static)
22:47	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.import-static/import-static;[[class & fields-and-methods]]; Imports the named static fields and/or static methods of the class as (private) symbols in the current namespace. Example: user=> (import-static java.lang.Math PI sqrt) nil user=> PI 3.141592653589793 user=> (sqrt 16) 4.0 Note: The class name must be fully qualified, even if it has already been imported. Static methods are defined as MACROS, not
22:48	krumholt	cool thanks
22:48	somnium	hmm, it makes macros though, so it might not do what you want
22:49	krumholt	thats exactly what i want :0
22:49	krumholt	thanks
22:57	_ato	Anniepoo: I don't think that's possible, well unless you somehow sandbox the file so the only functions available to it are ones that can't have side-effects. Is there a particular use-case you have for this?
22:57	Anniepoo	yes
22:58	Anniepoo	if I can make such a thing, then I can make a sandboxed repl
23:00	Anniepoo	which could make a wonderful tool for making web stuff - you interact with me by sending clojure code
23:00	_ato	you could have a look at what clojurebot does: http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
23:00	_ato	but I don't think it's easy
23:00	Anniepoo	already have done so
23:01	Anniepoo	no, it's not turning out to be, but I'm digging
23:01	Anniepoo	George Jahad gave a talk about server-socket at last clojure meetup, inspired me,
23:02	Anniepoo	this seems like a nice remote agent mechanism.
23:07	Anniepoo	It seems like it should be the sort of thing that's 25 lines of file and net IO stuff and 6 completely incomprehensible lines that do the real work
23:09	Anniepoo	but it's being icky
23:10	Anniepoo	well, I'm done 4 2day
23:10	Anniepoo	nighte
23:22	leafw	hum
23:22	leafw	how to call super in a proxy ?
23:22	clojurebot	a is b
23:24	leafw	clojurebot: zen ?
23:24	clojurebot	Excuse me?
23:24	leafw	not zen enough.
23:25	chouser	,(doc proxy-super)
23:25	clojurebot	"([meth & args]); Use to call a superclass method in the body of a proxy method. Note, expansion captures 'this"
23:25	chouser	leafw: be careful, that's not thread-safe.
23:26	tomoj	hum, why not?
23:28	leafw	thanks chouser
23:53	_ato	good grief, Chousuke's reader exception is non-deterministic, each time I run it it happens in a different place
23:55	hiredman	time to start disabling pieces