#clojure – 2009-11-03

2009-11-03

00:00	tomoj	huh
00:00	tomoj	not for max or +, right?
00:01	hiredman	no
00:01	hiredman	not for operations over sequences
00:01	hiredman	but just for functions that take a lot of args
00:01	tomoj	ah
00:02	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/178350
00:03	hiredman	(sched/fixedrate {:task #(dump-dict-is config) :start-delay 1 :rate 10 :unit (:minutes sched/unit)})
01:35	adityo	~max people
01:36	hiredman	wow
01:37	hiredman	clojurebot is flipping out
01:41	hiredman	oh
01:44	j3ff	,(. Math abs (/ 5 2))
01:44	j3ff	oops
01:45	j3ff	saw ato do that ;P
01:45	j3ff	anyone know why the math abs function doesnt work on a fraction?
01:46	j3ff	,(. Math abs -5)
01:46	clojurebot	5
01:46	_ato	Math is a java library and doesn't know anything about fractions
01:46	_ato	,(. Math abs (float (/ 5 2)))
01:46	j3ff	ic
01:46	clojurebot	2.5
01:46	j3ff	thanks
01:46	_ato	though
01:47	_ato	that doens't help if you want a fraction
01:47	j3ff	no i just need the value
01:47	_ato	hmm.. I wonder if...
01:48	_ato	,(clojure.contrib.math/abs (/ 5 2))
01:48	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.math
01:48	j3ff	,(use 'clojure.contrib.math)
01:48	clojurebot	nil
01:48	j3ff	,(clojure.contib.math/abs (/ 5 2))
01:48	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contib.math
01:49	_ato	,(abs (/ 5 2))
01:49	clojurebot	5/2
01:49	_ato	yeah
01:49	_ato	there we go
01:49	j3ff	haha cool
01:49	tomoj	,(abs (- (/ 5 2)))
01:49	clojurebot	5/2
01:49	tomoj	~def abs
01:50	tomoj	I just searched youtube for "did clojure kill god"
04:44	ordnungswidrig	hi all
04:47	zefhemel	hello
05:59	krumholt	hi i am using emacs with clojure-mode and i have a java application i like to extend from clojure. this application will create a window and call exit on close when closed. This will also terminate slime. does anyone know a way to prevent this? it's very annoying in testing
06:02	raek	don't call exit?
06:02	raek	maybe you could just close/hide the window
06:03	krumholt	raek, the application will call exit. it's a java application and i can't change that
06:04	krumholt	i want to "capture" it or something if possible :)
06:09	CalJunior	I trying to port some Java code to Clojure and have rather basic question. I would like to declare a new variable 'client' of type 'EClientSocket' (a class from the API I am implementing). The Java code is: EClientSocket client = new EClientSocket(this);
06:11	CalJunior	I tried (let [client (.EClientSocket this)]) which throws an exception. Unable to resolve symbol: this in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:19)
06:11	rfgpfeiffer	what is this in this context?
06:11	CalJunior	(typo: I AM trying to port …)
06:11	CalJunior	good question
06:12	rfgpfeiffer	this refers to an object, which class are you in?
06:12	CalJunior	The class is called Wrapper
06:13	rfgpfeiffer	you have to pass the instance of wrapper explicitly
06:13	CalJunior	This is what I did. (ns TestJavaClient.Wrapper
06:13	CalJunior	(:gen-class
06:13	CalJunior	:name TestJavaClient.Wrapper
06:13	CalJunior	:implements [EWrapper]
06:13	CalJunior	)
06:14	rfgpfeiffer	that's not what i mean
06:14	rfgpfeiffer	what does 'this' refer to in the java version?
06:15	CalJunior	That's one of the problems. I do not know. I think it refers to an object in the API library.
06:15	CalJunior	Did I already tell you I am a Java newbie? Now you know.
06:16	krumholt	CalJunior, May I ask why you want to port that Java Code?
06:16	CalJunior	I would like to implement a Java API in Clojure.
06:17	CalJunior	I have the code of a demo test client in Java.
06:17	CalJunior	I am trying to port this to Clojure so I can learn how to interop with Java.
06:18	CalJunior	I am more than a bit out of my depth here.
06:19	krumholt	CalJunior, I am not sure porting something you don't fully understand will provide a very good learning experience.
06:19	CalJunior	You might be right.
06:22	CalJunior	Last try: I found the 'this' object in the ESocketClient source file: m_reader = createReader(this, new DataInputStream(
06:22	CalJunior	socket.getInputStream()));
06:24	raek	CalJunior: (.Class x) and (Class. x) is not the same thing
06:24	raek	(Class. x) becomes (new Class x)
06:25	CalJunior	So I should do: (let [client (EClientSocket. this)])
06:25	CalJunior	?
06:26	CalJunior	Same exception, I tried: (let [client (EClientSocket. [])]). Now I get java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to com.ib.client.AnyWrapper (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
06:26	krumholt	no you must replace this with an object you are refering to. In java "this" refers to the class itself
06:26	CalJunior	aha
06:27	krumholt	you might wanna read http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/javaOO/thiskey.html
06:27	CalJunior	thanks krumholt.
06:27	CalJunior	and raek
06:27	CalJunior	and rfgpfeiffer
06:28	raek	CalJunior: (let [client (EclientSocket.)])
06:28	CalJunior	raek: with that I get: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: EclientSocket (NO_SOURCE_FILE:23)
06:29	raek	oops, EClientSocket
06:29	raek	capial C
06:29	raek	*capital
06:29	CalJunior	oops. now I get: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class com.ib.client.EClientSocket (NO_SOURCE_FILE:24)
06:29	raek	what arguments does the constructor of EClientSocket take?
06:30	CalJunior	give me a second ...
06:31	CalJunior	public EClientSocket( AnyWrapper anyWrapper) {
06:31	CalJunior	m_anyWrapper = anyWrapper;
06:31	CalJunior	}
06:31	CalJunior	This is AnyWrapper
06:31	CalJunior	public interface AnyWrapper {
06:31	CalJunior	void error( Exception e);
06:31	CalJunior	void error( String str);
06:31	CalJunior	void error(int id, int errorCode, String errorMsg);
06:31	CalJunior	void connectionClosed();
06:31	CalJunior	}
06:31	CalJunior	hope this helps
06:33	CalJunior	the 'public EClientSocket(…' method (?) is part of the EClientSocket class: public class EClientSocket {
06:33	CalJunior	if that makes any sense.
06:35	krumholt	it means it is a constructor not a method
06:35	CalJunior	ok. thanks.
06:36	cemerick	anyone here use clojure.contrib.logging? I'm getting logger names like "clojure.contrib.logging$fn__2450$impl_write_BANG___245", as warned in the ns docs.
06:36	raek	(let [wrapper (proxy [AnyWrapper] [] (error [e] ...) (error [id error-code error-msg] ...) (connectionClosed [] ...))]
06:37	raek	or something similar
06:37	raek	pass that to the constructor
06:37	CalJunior	ok, thanks raek.
06:38	raek	you have to create something that implements the AnyWrapper interface
06:38	raek	proxy does that
06:38	CalJunior	OK, it is becoming a lot more clear now. I think I will have to chew on this for a while. Will get back if I make progress.
06:38	raek	(let [client (EClientSocket. wrapper)] ...)
06:39	CalJunior	Couldn't I just call (proxy [AnyWrapper]) as an argument to ESocketClient.?
06:40	CalJunior	Guess I can't: java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/proxy (NO_SOURCE_FILE:29)
06:41	raek	,(doc proxy)
06:41	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not provid
06:41	raek	you have to provide an implementation of the methods specified in the interface
06:42	CalJunior	ok, that's clear. thanks again.
06:42	CalJunior	So this means I would need to port (parts of) the API libary to Clojure as well.
06:43	CalJunior	Was hoping to avoid this.
06:43	CalJunior	AnyWrapper.java is part of this API.
06:44	Chousuke	you should be able to call proxy directly to get an instance :/
06:44	Chousuke	I don't see why (Foo. (proxy ...)) wouldn't work. Maybe there's something wrong with your form?
06:45	CalJunior	I've done (Foo. [proxy …])
06:46	Chousuke	well, no wonder :)
06:46	CalJunior	(let [client (EClientSocket. (proxy AnyWrapper))])
06:47	yason	CalJunior: I've never needed anything but a proxy for java class/interface interop.
06:47	CalJunior	that's good news yason.
06:47	Chousuke	CalJunior: the interfaces need to be in a vector, but an empty proxy like that doesn't make sense.
06:47	raek	CalJunior: you'll have to give some instance of AnyWrapper to the constructor
06:48	raek	what did you pass in your java code?
06:48	Chousuke	CalJunior: why would you proxy AnyWrapper if you're not defining any of its methods?
06:50	CalJunior	The ESocketClient class contains the ESocketClient constructor (AFAI understand it). public EClientSocket( AnyWrapper anyWrapper) {
06:50	CalJunior	m_anyWrapper = anyWrapper;
06:50	CalJunior	The constructor takes AnyWrapper as its argument.
06:51	raek	to use that class, either in java or in clojure, you'll have to pass a AnyWrapper as an argument
06:51	raek	so how did you implement AnyWrapper in java?
06:51	CalJunior	There is no reference to AnyWrapper in the demo client code that I am trying to port to Clojure here.
06:52	raek	can you post a link to that code?
06:52	Chousuke	maybe it's indirectly used.
06:52	CalJunior	private AnyWrapper m_anyWrapper; // msg handler
06:52	Chousuke	ie. the demo code inherits/implements something that implements/extends AnyWrapper
06:53	CalJunior	public EClientSocket( AnyWrapper anyWrapper) {
06:53	CalJunior	m_anyWrapper = anyWrapper;
06:53	CalJunior	}
06:53	CalJunior
06:53	Chousuke	that's not the interesting code
06:53	CalJunior	Chousuke: exactly
06:53	CalJunior	oh
06:53	Chousuke	is there no place where the EClientSocket constructor gets called?
06:54	Chousuke	but I suppose you'll want to proxy AnyWrapper and implement its methods in your clojure code.
06:55	Chousuke	that'd be similar to creating a class and having it extend AnyWrapper in Java
06:55	CalJunior	Chousuke: yes: that's the line of java I am trying to port. EClientSocket client = new EClientSocket(this);
06:55	Chousuke	ah. so the class you're reading implements AnyWrapper
06:55	CalJunior	Yes
06:56	CalJunior	If you want/like to have a look, the code is all public. So you can see the bigger picture. I realise I am asking a lot.
06:57	Chousuke	yeah, then you'll want to use proxy so that (defn make-my-whatever [arg arg2] (proxy [AnyWrapper] [] (anywrapperMethod1 [foo bar] (dostuff)) (anywrapperMethod2 [foo bar] (domorestuff arg1 arg2))))
06:57	Chousuke	then (ESocketClient. (make-my-whatever foo bar))
06:58	Chousuke	the make-* is a factory function for creating instances of your proxy, and the proxy closes over the arguments to the factory function, so you can use them in the method implementation if you need to
06:59	CalJunior	,(doc make-)
06:59	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
06:59	Chousuke	I just defined it :)
06:59	CalJunior	,(doc make-*)
06:59	clojurebot	Excuse me?
06:59	Chousuke	it's make-my-whatever. it's not a core function :P
06:59	Chousuke	it's just a whatever name
07:00	CalJunior	Oh, sorry. Thought it was a Clojure expression.
07:00	Chousuke	and I was too lazy to type so I abbreviated it to make* :P
07:00	Chousuke	+-
07:00	CalJunior	Clear
07:00	Chousuke	didn't save me much typing in the end though :D
07:01	Chousuke	(moral of the story: don't abbreviate out of laziness)
07:01	CalJunior	Would you want to have a look at the code I'm porting?
07:01	Chousuke	I don't have the time right now. Class starts in 15 minutes.
07:01	krumholt_	what time is it?
07:02	Chousuke	here? 14:02 :P
07:02	CalJunior	OK, thanks for the advice Chousuke. Very helpful.
07:02	krumholt_	i am always forgetting differnet time zones
07:02	CalJunior	also krumholt and raek.
07:03	CalJunior	I think I have my work cut out for me for the afternoon. :-)
07:29	AWizzArd	Strange, my clojure-contrib does not compile to .class files. I do ant -Dclojure.jar=../clojure/clojure.jar and this produces the clojure-contrib.jar, and that jar contains many .clj files. When I give a wrong part to the clojure.jar I get warning. Is there something else I need to do to aot-compile?
07:29	AWizzArd	I am using the NEW branch of Clojure.
07:33	AWizzArd	It contains some .class files, but by far not everything. The clojure-contrib.jar has a size of 567 kb.
07:34	AWizzArd	Anyone else here who has a fresh checkout of Clojures NEW branch and master of Contrib?
07:37	gerry`	my clojure-contrib.jar is 3252kb
07:38	AWizzArd	Yes, sounds realistic, as it should be.
07:40	gerry`	i have setup clojure-new and clojure-contrib-new dirs
07:40	gerry`	new branch use the two dirs
07:41	gerry`	last compile was after deftype case are out
07:42	gerry`	it worked
07:42	_ato	AWizzArd: sure you're not looking at the slim jar?
07:43	gerry`	what's wrong with slim.jar?
07:43	AWizzArd	_ato: yes, I am sure. I also have the slim, and that file is even smaller (as expected).
07:43	_ato	ah wait, new branch, I didn't see that
07:43	AWizzArd	I am inspecting the build file of Contrib.
07:44	AWizzArd	The clojure.jar file looks as expected, that's fine.
07:44	gerry`	clojure-contrib-slim.jar is 284kb on my box
07:45	_ato	ah yes
07:45	_ato	I get the same with HEAD of new branch
07:45	_ato	guess (compile) is broken
07:46	AWizzArd	So, _ato, I interpret from what you said that you also get a smallish clojure-contrib.jar when you give the path to NEW clojure.jar during ant'ing it?!
07:46	_ato	no wait
07:46	_ato	I'm being stupid
07:46	_ato	had the path wrong
07:47	_ato	no I get a full 3.3MB clojure-contrib.jar
07:47	_ato	AWizzArd: did you ant clean ?
07:48	AWizzArd	yes, I did a clean
07:49	AWizzArd	It says it compiles: pprint.ColumnWriter pprint.PrettyWriter fnmap.PersistentFnMap condition.Condition jmx.Bean
07:49	AWizzArd	in compile_classes
07:49	_ato	then there should be a seperate compile_clojure task
07:50	_ato	which takes a while
07:50	_ato	it doesn't print out the name of everything it compiles
07:50	_ato	just says: [echo] Locating namespaces to compile ...
07:50	_ato	then: [echo] Compiling Clojure namespaces ...
07:50	AWizzArd	yes
07:50	AWizzArd	but this guy seems to be doing nothing for me
07:51	_ato	weird
07:52	AWizzArd	Are you on Windows XP?
07:54	_ato	Ubuntu x86 with Sun Java 6 update 16
07:55	AWizzArd	XP x86, also with that JDK
07:56	AWizzArd	It‘s this compile_clojure step which does not compile anything for me.
08:00	gerry`	i'm update new branch now
08:02	_ato	AWizzArd: you could try compiling manually. try something like: java -cp /path/to/clojure.jar:clojure-contrib/src:clojure-contrib/classes clojure.main -e "(compile 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)"
08:03	_ato	(with paths and whatever appropriately adjusted to however you'd write that on windows)
08:03	gerry`	it worked perfectly
08:05	AWizzArd	_ato: well yes, manual compilation works.
08:06	AWizzArd	39 .class files for seq-utils were produced.
08:06	_ato	hmm, guess it's probably an ant problem then
08:06	AWizzArd	gerry`: are you also under Windows XP?
08:06	_ato	I've got ant 1.7.1
08:06	gerry`	no,i'm using ubuntu 9.10
08:06	gerry`	why use winxp?
08:07	gerry`	winxp sucks :)
08:09	AWizzArd	I also use ant 1.7.1 and XP is installed at my computer for work.
08:09	_ato	ant -v -Dclojure.jar=../clojure/clojure.jar compile_clojure
08:09	_ato	^ makes it print out all the files it finds to compile
08:13	AWizzArd	yes, but it only finds those 5 which I reported above.
08:14	AWizzArd	very strange
08:19	gerry`	AWizzArd: delete them and reinstall
08:20	gerry`	to see if it work
08:20	AWizzArd	Works fine for compiling clojure.jar
08:22	AWizzArd	1823 kb for me (NEW branch)
08:23	gerry`	here is 1740
08:23	gerry`	oops, New is 1834 right
08:24	AWizzArd	very comparable
08:29	gerry`	AWizzArd: are you using jre or jdk?
08:29	AWizzArd	I can manually add all namespaces to the compile_classes task.. that works sigh
08:29	AWizzArd	jdk
08:30	gerry`	ant problem?
08:31	AWizzArd	seems so
08:31	AWizzArd	Or at least the build file needs something to work under Windows as well.
08:38	weissj	i'm trying to write my own "primes" function that returns an inf seq. i wanted to implement it so that it uses its own earlier primes to calculate later primes. the implementation in contrib doesn't do this though, and there's a comment saying that it can't be done efficiently that way. can someone explain a) how to do it that way, even if it's slow, and b) why its not efficient? i thougght lazy seqs were great for this sort of thing
08:44	chouser	weissj: I think that comment may be referring to the fact that you'd need to store all of the previous primes somewhere anyway, so there's not much value in making it a function vs a lazy seq. But I'm not quite sure.
08:46	weissj	chouser: i was thinking that a lazy seq should cache its results so that the function that returns primes could call itself efficiently, as long as it only wanted values that had already been calculated
08:46	weissj	don't clojure lazy seqs do this?
08:47	weissj	halloway's book implies that they do - let me find the paragraph
08:47	chouser	yes, clojure lazy seqs cache their values, which the contrib primes definition takes advantage of.
08:48	weissj	chouser: what do you have to do to take advantage of the caching? it seems like my function that returns a lazy seq of primes, there's no caching between calls to the fn
08:48	AWizzArd	don't lose the head of the seq
08:48	chouser	well it has to be the same seq for it to find the cache
08:49	weissj	AWizzArd: i see - so clojure doesn't realize that my fn returns the same seq every time, i have to use literally the same seq
08:50	AWizzArd	It's important that lazy-seqs can be GCed. Imagine you map over a lazy seq that contains 100 GB of data. I have similar cases, and my program runs with constant memory needs.
08:50	chouser	which I think is what the comment before contrib primes is talking about -- it's got to hang on to the same seq object anyway, so might as well store it in a var name 'primes' rather than making a function public.
08:50	AWizzArd	weissj: there is already something for memoization, in Contrib. So, with that there would remain a pointer to the seq that you created the first time.
08:52	weissj	chouser: AWizzArd: ok, so my mistake was to call primes a fn, i could just call it a var.
08:52	AWizzArd	yes!
08:52	weissj	ok, i'll see what i can do with that. thanks!
08:53	Chousuke	storing an infinite lazy seq in a var is generally bad style though.
08:53	Chousuke	since it'll never be gc:d, and might grow massive :P
08:54	weissj	Chousuke: well, if you suppose that any consumer of this 'primes' var really needs to know these primes, the gc will never know when the consumer is done asking for them, so it kinda makes sense
08:55	weissj	seems like the only other choice is to recalculate the seq
08:55	AWizzArd	,(doc if-let)
08:55	clojurebot	"([bindings then] [bindings then else & oldform]); bindings => binding-form test If test is true, evaluates then with binding-form bound to the value of test, if not, yields else"
08:55	AWizzArd	What is oldform?
08:55	AWizzArd	,(if-let [x 1] :a :b :c)
08:55	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: if-let requires a vector for its binding
08:58	cgrand	AWizzArd: in distant times, (if-let [x y] a b) was written (if-let x y a b)
09:00	AWizzArd	i see
09:00	AWizzArd	cgrand: are you using Windows XP?
09:02	cgrand	AWizzArd: no, why?
09:04	AWizzArd	Would be great if someone with Windows XP and ant 1.7.1 could confirm that clojure-contrib won't aot-compile everything, resulting in a smallish clojure-contrib.jar file.
09:12	AWizzArd	rhickey: can we maybe have a without-exception macro? :)
09:12	AWizzArd	(defmacro without-exception [& body] `(try ~@body (catch Exception _# nil)))
09:16	AWizzArd	something like CLs ignore-errors
09:16	rhickey	AWizzArd: sounds evil
09:17	chouser	looks like the checked-exception hacks in nearly every bit of Java example code out there.
09:18	AWizzArd	Maybe this is more domain specific when writing a web app with Compojure shrugs
09:18	rhickey	except we don't have checked exceptions to work around in Clojure
09:19	AWizzArd	this ignore-errors is nice when working with when-let or if-let
09:19	chouser	AWizzArd: why?
09:19	chouser	oh, to get 'nil' instead of an exception. hm.
09:21	cemerick	oh, dammit, I got caught by not explicitly capturing the value of a bindable var before returning a lazy seq. :-(
09:22	AWizzArd	In Compojure for example a request could get stopped by exceptions, returning debug output to the enduser. Trying to parse json can result in an exception or lots of error checking code. It's nice when the json parser just returns nil (for my case).
09:22	_ato	it's not something you'd want to do commonly enough to justity shortening with a macro IMO
09:23	_ato	and it's bad to be in a habit of catching all exceptions rather than just the ones you want to deal with
09:26	AWizzArd	For the general case I agree.
09:26	djork	so my friend says: "so why would you use a language that no one else is taking seriously"
09:26	chouser	bait
09:26	AWizzArd	yup ;)
09:27	AWizzArd	I'm fast outta here
09:29	krumholt_	does clojure need an installed jdk to work or is a jre enough?
09:29	chouser	krumholt_: jre is sufficient unless you want to build clojure itself.
09:29	krumholt_	chouser, ok thanks
09:30	djork	chouser: he's baiting me
09:31	chouser	djork: yes
09:31	djork	k
09:31	djork	just didn't want people to think I was baiting the channel
09:31	AWizzArd	good
09:31	chouser	djork: did you run away? or ask who's opinion is so important he didn't question it?
09:31	djork	heh heh
09:31	chouser	djork: oh, yes, I didn't think that. You've been here enough. :-)
09:31	djork	I don't know of many people who aren't taking Clojure seriously
09:32	AWizzArd	Anyone here who worked with Contribs logging module?
09:32	aatifh	I have a hash map like {"bar" {"foobar" "foo"}} and to convert into {"foobar" "foo", "name" "bar"}
09:32	cemerick	AWizzArd: I was just looking at it now.
09:33	cemerick	if one is AOT-ing code, that's when "macro-expansion-time" is, right?
09:33	chouser	I see posts from people who dismiss Clojure pretty easily, but those strike me more as matters of taste than not taking it seriously.
09:33	AWizzArd	cemerick: oh good, I had a short look yesterday and would now like to check it out.
09:33	chouser	cemerick: yes, macro expansion happens more or less during compilation (slightly before for each form)
09:34	chouser	aatifh: your input map always has only one pair?
09:35	chouser	cemerick: eh. let me try that again -- during AST-generation (slightly before for each form), all of which is before bytecode generation.
09:39	cemerick	chouser: that's what I thought.Means that one has to be careful not to AOT clojure.contrib, lest logging gets locked into a logging subsystem that isn't in the deployment environment.
09:39	aatifh	?
09:39	cemerick	I'd be happy to be proven wrong, of course.
09:39	_ato	aatifh: where does "name" come from?
09:39	_ato	or you mean that's hardcoded?
09:39	AWizzArd	cemerick: what is clojure.contrib.logging/impl-name for you?
09:39	aatifh	_ato, that key has to be added
09:39	_ato	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] (assoc v "name" k)) {:bar {:foobar :foo}}))
09:39	clojurebot	{"name" :bar, :foobar :foo}
09:39	_ato	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] (assoc v "name" k)) {:bar {:foobar :foo}, :baz {:quox :kaboom}))
09:39	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
09:39	_ato	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] (assoc v "name" k)) {:bar {:foobar :foo}, :baz {:quox :kaboom}}))
09:39	clojurebot	{"name" :baz, :foobar :foo, :quox :kaboom}
09:39	aatifh	chouser, yes
09:40	cemerick	AWizzArd: java.util.logging
09:40	AWizzArd	cemerick: for me it's "org.apache.commons.logging" and (impl-get-log "my.namespace") returns a Jdk14Logger. And I would love to know how I can set the current log level, or turn logging off completely.
09:41	cemerick	AWizzArd: setting log levels and such is totally orthogonal to c.c.logging -- for that, you need to configure the in-use logging subsystem.
09:42	aatifh	_ato, Thanks
10:00	patricius_	Hey. Very simple question: How do I make a string out of the contents of a seq? I thought that (str x) where x = ["Peter" \, "George" \, "Jack"] would yield the string "Peter,George,Jack"?
10:00	AWizzArd	(apply str your-seq)
10:01	AWizzArd	,(apply str ["Peter" \, "George" \, "Jack"])
10:01	clojurebot	"Peter,George,Jack"
10:01	patricius_	ahr!
10:01	patricius_	thanks!
10:02	The-Kenny	(I think there should be str* for that in core, writing apply is a bit annoying sometimes)
10:03	patricius_	yeah... I just misread the definition of str
10:03	_ato	mmm perhaps better would be string/str to match vector/vec
10:04	chouser	that'd be a breaking change for str
10:04	_ato	I know
10:05	AWizzArd	in the http-agent lib (contrib) there already is a function string
10:05	_ato	it's just sad it'll get stuck as the odd one out :(
10:10	AWizzArd	cemerick: do you happen to know if all these logging libs do have ways to turn logging on/off?
10:11	cemerick	AWizzArd: log4j and java.util.logging both have roughly similar control mechanisms
10:11	cemerick	The former is probably more powerful.
10:14	AWizzArd	And how do you get the logger object? Is it really (def my-logger (.getLogger (impl-get-log "my.namespace")))?
10:15	cemerick	AWizzArd: you'll have to look at c.c.logging's docs, etc. It's rolled off my stack.
10:16	AWizzArd	k
10:22	AWizzArd	rhickey: without compiling the namespace?
10:22	AWizzArd	oh, I see
10:23	chouser	rhickey: what do you mean by inline caching?
10:25	rhickey	chouser: swapping in a class-specific stub at (:k x) call points. Basically every deftype defines stub per field. Keyword callsites can obtain these stubs and swap them in, replacing lookup with direct call
10:26	patricius_	there should be no problem in having one agent creating a promise, and sending it to another agent that at some point delivers? this is one of its usage scenarios, right?
10:26	chouser	patricius_: sounds good to me
10:27	rhickey	patricius_: just remember that dereferencing an undelivered promise blocks
10:27	chouser	rhickey: That doesn't sound like the Keyword invoke method, but instead special Compiler support (:k x) calls?
10:27	patricius_	rhickey: yes, that is exactly why I use it
10:27	patricius_	:)
10:28	_ato	rhickey: ah... that's a great idea. I had been defaulting to (x :k). I should get into the habit of (:k x) instead.
10:28	rhickey	chouser: yes, a ton of compiler support, still trying to access if it's worth it - case dispatch is surprisingly very good
10:28	rhickey	assess
10:28	chouser	surely would be easier with cinc
10:30	rhickey	chouser: it's done, but there are some overheads - more classes being generated, some cost when not a deftype lookup (although they still trounce any more generic lookup, e.g. struct/arraymaps)
10:34	djork	what's going on with this...?
10:34	djork	'`[:foo :bar]
10:34	djork	,'`[:foo :bar]
10:34	clojurebot	(clojure.core/apply clojure.core/vector (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list :foo) (clojure.core/list :bar))))
10:34	djork	is that what [:foo :bar] translates to at runtime?
10:35	chouser	djork: :-) what were you expection?
10:35	_ato	hehe
10:35	djork	er, evaluation
10:35	_ato	we were talking about this yesterday or so
10:35	chouser	djork: that's what `[:foo :bar] compiles to
10:35	djork	gotcha
10:35	rhickey	always scary changing something so pervasively used, OTOH, getting (:field x) as fast as possible for deftypes means that independently written protocol functions have no disadvantage vs methods, i.e. not dynamic penalty
10:36	chouser	djork: that's the code template for building a vector that can have expressions inserted via ~ or spliced via ~@ at runtime.
10:36	_ato	rhickey: is this only when x is type-hinted?
10:36	djork	ok
10:36	djork	so the reader isn't doing that translation every time?
10:36	rhickey	_ato: nothing to do with type hints
10:37	chouser	djork: yes, that's what the reader produces when you use `
10:37	djork	well yeah, when you use `
10:37	djork	but not for every []
10:37	djork	` makes a template
10:37	chouser	rhickey: does it swap back to generic lookup of x stops being the type is was before?
10:38	rhickey	chouser: yes
10:38	chouser	djork: right.
10:38	_ato	ag
10:38	_ato	ah*
10:38	rhickey	chouser: and subsequent to that is never quite as fast
10:38	chouser	oh, interesting.
10:38	rhickey	I guess hotspot backs off then
10:39	chouser	heh
10:39	rhickey	well, at that point the call site is polymorphic
10:40	chouser	sure
10:41	rhickey	but your basic set of functions implementing a protocol for a deftype will never be
10:42	djork	,(let [n 1000000] (do (time (dorun (take n (repeatedly #(do {:foo :bar}))))) (time (dorun (take n (repeatedly #(do `{:foo :bar})))))))
10:42	chouser	because the correct call site will be selected by protocol machinery first?
10:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1024.347 msecs" "Elapsed time: 4017.524 msecs"
10:43	rhickey	its only in non-polymorphic situations that you could expect .field-like perf, after all .field is never polymorphic
10:43	rhickey	chouser: there will be one fault, swapping in the initial thunk, but after that it will never change
10:44	patricius_	perhaps I am a moron, but let's say that an agent action A creates a promise P1 and sends it off to an agent B. A then blocks until P1 is delivered, which B is responsible for. When B delivers, it sets the value of the promise to another promise P2 that it itself blocks on (by deref'ing). A then sees the new promise, performs some work and then delivers P2, which lets B continue. Is this a sure deadlock? I'm sure there is a more clever way to solv
10:44	patricius_	problem, so foregive me.
10:46	djork	hah "perhaps I am a moron, but ... <highly intelligent discussion of advanced computing follows>"
10:46	ericthorsen	e72291196T
10:46	patricius_	:P
10:46	ericthorsen	sorry...wrong window
10:48	chouser	patricius_: I'm trying to follow, but that doesn't sound like a deadlock to me.
10:49	patricius_	chouser: here's what I am trying to do (follows)
10:51	cgrand	patricius_: is A awaiting P1 to be delivered in the same action where it sent P1 to B?
10:52	rhickey	patricius_: one thing is true of promise/deliver (and dataflow vars in general) - if you've got a deadlock it will always occur
10:53	djork	well that's actually quite nice :)
10:53	djork	nothing worse than a non-deterministic deadlock
10:53	fogus_	That seems the flavor I've always experienced.
10:54	patricius_	I am creating a simulation of a system where you have a bunch of "processes" that each need to access certain cylinders on a disk. It is a requirement that when a process requests access to a cylinder, it blocks until it gets access. But when it has been given access, it is up to the process to release it again, before any other processes can get access to the disk and its cylinders. So a process blocks on a request promise, and when a "disk sch
10:54	patricius_	agent gets to that request, it delivers the promise, effectively giving the process access to the cylinder.
10:54	patricius_	sigh horrible explanation
10:55	patricius_	in any case, clojure probably doesn't lend itself well to such a scenario - but I'm investigating concurrent languages on a single, common, concurrent problem
10:56	patricius_	cgrand: yes, your understanding is correct
10:57	chouser	patricius_: if each process will only ever have access to one cylinder at a time, is this perhaps a good scenario for a simple lock per cylinder?
10:57	patricius_	chouser: hmm... maybe
11:02	patricius_	for some reason, i can get the processes to block and unblock correctly, if I deliver the first promise directly from the REPL thread, but not when I get an agent to deliver the first promise
11:02	chouser	patricius_: you're using send-off not send for these agents, right?
11:02	patricius_	yes
11:03	cgrand	patricius_: actions dispatched to other agents are held until the current action is done so (do (send B some-action P1) @P1) blocks
11:03	patricius_	cgrand: ahhh.... that seems to explain it
11:03	rhickey	,(doc release-pending-sends)
11:03	clojurebot	"([]); Normally, actions sent directly or indirectly during another action are held until the action completes (changes the agent's state). This function can be used to dispatch any pending sent actions immediately. This has no impact on actions sent during a transaction, which are still held until commit. If no action is occurring, does nothing. Returns the number of actions dispatched."
11:06	patricius_	rhickey: you're such a genius :)
11:06	patricius_	rhickey: come to my university and give a talk about clojure - there are some people here that will wet their pants in excitement over clojure
11:09	fogus_	Sounds like an offer that can't be refused!
11:15	djork	wet pants are not to be missed
11:19	CalJunior	question on "new" vs. "old" branch: is 'this-name?' functionality in reify (like Java's 'this' for method bodies to refer to the current instance) also available in proxy?
11:24	chouser	within a proxy form, the symbol this refers to the instance that proxy returns
11:26	rathore	,(.getString String)
11:26	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getString for class java.lang.Class
11:26	rathore	,(.getName String)
11:26	clojurebot	"java.lang.String"
11:26	rathore	,(.parseLong Long "12312232")
11:26	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: parseLong for class java.lang.Class
11:30	_ato	,(Long/parseLong "12345")
11:30	clojurebot	12345
11:31	rathore	_ato: yes, I'm aware of that form
11:31	rathore	_ato: i'm looking at http://clojure.org/java_interop
11:31	chouser	(. Long parseLong "12312232")
11:31	chouser	,(. Long parseLong "12312232")
11:31	clojurebot	12312232
11:32	rathore	chouser: under member-access, there's a general form shown as - (.instanceMember Classname args*)
11:32	rathore	chouser: i know that the dot operator works as u described...
11:32	rathore	chouser: but whats this form in the documentation?
11:32	rathore	chouser: (.instanceMember Classname args*)
11:32	chouser	instance not static member
11:33	rathore	for a Classname?
11:33	rathore	what would be an example?
11:33	_ato	(. (identity Classname) instanceMember args*)
11:33	_ato	hmm
11:33	chouser	,(.pow 2M 2)
11:33	clojurebot	4M
11:33	chouser	oh!
11:33	chouser	Classname
11:33	chouser	hm.
11:34	chouser	,(.isAssignableFrom Integer Float)
11:34	_ato	it is somewhat misleading
11:34	clojurebot	false
11:35	_ato	it implies it's the instance of the class rather than the instance of the Class
11:35	chouser	_ato: that's ok. rathore's book will clear it up.
11:36	rathore	chouser: funny
11:40	rathore	_ato: can you elaborate on that statement?
11:41	CalJunior	chouser: thanks
11:42	_ato	I just mean the doc is misleading. (.instanceMember Long) is like Long.class.instanceMember() in java, not Long.instanceMember()
11:42	_ato	it's not wrong, it uses an uppercasee "Class" meaning instance of java.lang.Class for that type
11:44	rathore	_ato: got you, thanks
11:45	_ato	,(.getMethods Long)
11:45	clojurebot	#<Method[] [Ljava.lang.reflect.Method;@13cc05f>
11:45	_ato	,(seq (.getMethods Long))
11:45	clojurebot	(#<Method public int java.lang.Long.hashCode()> #<Method public static long java.lang.Long.reverseBytes(long)> #<Method public int java.lang.Long.compareTo(java.lang.Object)> #<Method public int java.lang.Long.compareTo(java.lang.Long)> #<Method public static java.lang.Long java.lang.Long.getLong(java.lang.String,java.lang.Long)> #<Method public static java.lang.Long java.lang.Long.getLong(java.lang.String,long)> #<Method
11:55	Jomyoot	Any good new IDE for clojure?
11:56	The-Kenny	Jomyoot: Emacs + slime + swank-clojure :)
11:56	Jomyoot	not that again :(
11:56	jasapp	doesn't get any better
11:57	ericthorsen	Jomyoot: We are using and developing actively the Enclojure library for this which has a Netbeans plugin www.enclojure.org
11:57	Jomyoot	I use IDEA
11:57	Jomyoot	So unfortunate that La Clojure is not up to that level
11:59	ericthorsen	Jomyoot: I'm playing with putting the Enclojure repls into Jetbrains clojure plugin...not sure if that is La Clojure?
11:59	ericthorsen	Jomyoot: from here - http://git.jetbrains.org/?p=idea/clojure-plugin.git;a=summary
11:59	fanatico	ericthorsen: how integrated is Enclojure with the REPL. For example, do you have macroexpand support?
12:00	ericthorsen	fanatico: Not sure what you mean...you can call macroexpand on a form
12:01	Jomyoot	Is Compojure still THE web development tool?
12:01	Jomyoot	Anything new than that?
12:01	Jomyoot	Conjure?
12:02	fanatico	ericthorsen: can I expand inline? Or do I have to jump down to the REPL and reload the file?
12:03	ericthorsen	fanatico: There are hotkeys for loading files, expressions, etc. There is no hotkey for macroexpand (that is in interesting idea). Is that what you are looking for?
12:05	_ato	ericthorsen: with emacs/SLIME there's a hotkey for showing the macro expansion in a temporary buffer, as well as replacing the form the cursor is over with it's expansion. I guess fanatico is referring to those
12:06	ericthorsen	_ato: I was thinking about being able to do this from the editor...it sounds similar. We do not support that yet.
12:07	cemerick	I try to keep my macro-writing down to a dull roar. If ericthorsen is taking a tally, better Java-oriented code completion is more common thing to optimize on. :-P
12:08	chouser	macroexpansion can be useful for understanding builtin macros as well
12:08	_ato	hehe. Both are pretty handy for debugging macros, eg you can type something out, macroexpand it and then edit the expansion and then eval to see if you fix worked, then go back to your macro and make the fix there
12:08	chouser	plus Yegge asked for it
12:08	cemerick	Yegge talked about clojure?
12:09	chouser	no
12:09	_ato	aww
12:09	chouser	Yegge talked about wanting an editor that has a macroexpand keystroke. I don't know why he thinks emacs doesn't have that.
12:11	cemerick	hrmph. I don't use emacs, and I knew it had that. :-/
12:11	_ato	maybe (e)lisp-mode doesn't have it, I don't do enough elisp to have noticed it missing
12:12	chouser	http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
12:12	tknudsen	hey peeps. Anyone making constructive use of a web framework implemented in clojure?
12:12	The-Kenny	I need a cheatsheet for slime-commands.. I always forget the shortcuts for them.
12:12	chouser	"If your editor knows all about macros, then you should be able to click to see the expansion, and click again to see its sub-expansions, all the way down to the primitive functions. Some editors can do this, but none of them (that I'm aware of) handle macros as cleanly or seamlessly as they do normal functions."
12:13	m0smith	hi?
12:13	_ato	The-Kenny: there's several, just google: emacs cheat sheet
12:13	tknudsen	m0smith, hello
12:13	fanatico	He wrote that ~10,000 LOC js2-mode, so hopefully he'd know.
12:13	m0smith	I have been looking at clojure and love it
12:13	m0smith	There is something that is bugging me though
12:13	tknudsen	what's that?
12:13	The-Kenny	_ato: I mean a small one.. I have a big one here, but I never find the command I'm searching for.
12:14	The-Kenny	s/small/compact/
12:14	m0smith	I want to convert a self-referential class to clojure
12:14	m0smith	but I can't seem to figure it out
12:14	emit	is there a way for me to break up a long string in clojure without explicitly concat'ing fragments? like using \ in makefiles or just " " " "
12:14	AWizzArd	cemerick: this logging module in Contrib seems to be very uninteresting. It will select by random a logging facility that happens to be in the CP.
12:14	fanatico	emit: """
12:15	tknudsen	m0, how is self-referential different than private class? elementary question, perhaps...
12:15	cemerick	AWizzArd: hardly at random -- there is a defined order.
12:15	emit	thanks
12:15	AWizzArd	cemerick: the one it chose for me is not able to log :trace and :debug levels.
12:15	chouser	emit: strings can wrap across multiple lines, but the newline will be included
12:15	emit	oh ok that should be fine as well then. just an sql query
12:15	_ato	fanatico: clojure doesn't have """ does it?
12:15	AWizzArd	cemerick: yes, first commons - but commons supports 7, and commons will decide which it wants to use. In my case a very lame logger.
12:15	tknudsen	cascade or compojure? Anyone making constructive use of a web framework implemented in clojure?
12:15	fanatico	_ato: oops, my mistake.
12:15	_ato	fanatico: that's just the same as "" "
12:15	AWizzArd	Now you have to hardwire your code to exactly that logger, very stupid.
12:16	m0smith	I am looking for my example
12:16	cemerick	AWizzArd: what logger are you getting that doesn't support trace and debug?
12:17	AWizzArd	cemerick: http://commons.apache.org/logging/apidocs/org/apache/commons/logging/impl/Jdk14Logger.html
12:18	AWizzArd	Yes yes, it lists those methods. But when I call .trace or .debug on my logger then nothing happens.
12:18	AWizzArd	And the way how I can set the log level is completely different from how java.util.logging.Logger
12:18	AWizzArd	is doing it.
12:19	cemerick	AWizzArd: well, I can't speak to what commons logging is doing. But c.c.logging isn't doing anything particularly special or fancy...I very much doubt it's the one swallowing your logging msgs.
12:19	m0smith	for some reason browser is not working
12:20	AWizzArd	It seems the Jdk14Logger only supports four levels.
12:20	cemerick	I do think it would be very reasonable for commons-logging to come last in the resolution order, rather than first.
12:20	AWizzArd	yes
12:20	m0smith	Imagine a Person that referson to mother, father and children, all of which are also Person instances
12:20	m0smith	refers
12:20	cemerick	I keep commons logging far, far away from our new projects. PDFTextStream v2 bundles it, and it's been a constant source of frustration.
12:21	m0smith	In Java that is a simple construct, but what about clojure?
12:21	AWizzArd	cemerick: the problem is that I have it in my CP, cause I am using htmlunit for example which has it as a dependency sigh
12:21	_ato	even simpler because it's dynamically typed?
12:21	_ato	or are you talking about gen-class or something?
12:22	cemerick	AWizzArd: I'd absolutely +1 a patch to change the resolution order :-)
12:22	cemerick	(not that that means a damn thing, though)
12:22	chouser	m0smith: are you trying to create a Java class or just represent the same functionality in a more Clojure-oriented way?
12:22	AWizzArd	cemerick: do you know if the Eclipse Public License lets me take Contribs logging lib, change it, and close source the changed code in my code base with my own license?
12:22	m0smith	represent the same sort of data structure in a more clojure/funtional way. The java class is trivial
12:23	_ato	m0smith: {:type :person, :name "Bob", :family [{:type :mother, :name "Jody"}]} ?
12:23	cemerick	AWizzArd: You can certainly use contrib in commercial projects without impacting the license your code is distributed under, but you can't change contrib's license itself.
12:24	cemerick	or, that's my understanding. IANAL, and all that.
12:24	_ato	or you mean self-referentia as in a cycle?
12:24	_ato	so Jody would also have a pointer to Bob
12:24	m0smith	How do I then get Bob as Jody's child?
12:24	_ato	you can't with pure immutable data
12:25	_ato	either use refs
12:25	_ato	or use keys
12:25	_ato	like
12:25	chouser	one way is to put all the people in a map indexed by unique id or name or something, then the outbound links can have those uuids or names as their values.
12:25	_ato	{:type :person, :id :bob, :name "Bob", :family [:jody :phillip]}
12:25	_ato	this is also quite nice as it's easy to read and write
12:26	m0smith	so then there is a list that I look through to get :Jody?
12:27	chouser	a map, just look it up.
12:27	_ato	as in: {:bob {:type :person, :id :bob, :name "Bob", :family [:jody :phillip]}, :jody {:type :mother ...}}
12:27	chouser	{:bob [:jody :phillip], :jody [:bob :phillip] ...}
12:28	m0smith	ok that makes sense
12:28	_ato	ah yep, that's nicer
12:30	m0smith	Different but related question: Can we build a binary tree in clojure?
12:31	_ato	m0smith: as in sorted-map?
12:31	_ato	a binary search tree
12:31	_ato	or just a binary tree
12:31	chouser	sorted-maps are a binary tree, but you could build your own with vectors as nodes for example.
12:31	m0smith	just and arbitrary tree
12:31	chouser	[[[1 2] [3 4]] [[5 6] [7 8]]]
12:32	m0smith	ok
12:32	m0smith	thanks for the help. I was trying to make it much harder
12:32	chouser	more efficient ways of doing this are coming. :-)
12:32	m0smith	I have been programming emacs for a while
12:40	ozzilee	I've got a question about bindings. Is there a way to bind something for an entire module? The json library in contrib will return keys as keywords if json-keyword-keys is true, but that means I have to either wrap every call in a (binding ...), or create a wrapper function around the function in contrib.
12:40	chouser	m0smith: fwiw, a tree of vectors like that can be navigated using clojure.zip, which can allow you to walk up, down, across sibilings, and make "modifications" as needed
12:44	cemerick	ozzilee: you can manually set a root binding on the var in question, but I'd go with a wrapper fn.
12:44	_ato	(defn read-jason [& args] (binding [json-keyword-keys true] (apply clojure.contrib.json.read/read-json args)))
12:44	cemerick	to answer your question directly though, no, I don't think so.
12:44	_ato	with (require 'clojure.contrib.json.read) instead of (use)
12:47	ozzilee	Hrm. Okay, that works, I guess. Is there a better way to do this sort of thing. I'm writing a couchdb library, and I want to be able to set the host and database name in one place instead of passing it to each function call. I could use a connection object and pass that every time, but I'd like to be able to just say, "In this module, the database name is foo".
12:49	cemerick	ozzilee: that's what bindings are for. You could set up a couple of atoms for people to set their db properties in, but that will fall over pretty quickly.
12:50	_ato	ozzilee: note that bindings are dynamic not lexical, so if you do (binding [db "somedb"] ... ) in your main function
12:50	_ato	it'll apply to everything in the program in the main thread
12:50	_ato	unforunately there's not yet a good way to make them propagate across threads
12:50	ozzilee	cemerick: Yeah, I've been using atoms, but that means the properties are set globally. Not really what I want.
12:51	ozzilee	_ato: Hrm, yeah, that's something to think about.
12:52	cemerick	fogus_: http://muckandbrass.com/web/display/~cemerick/2009/11/03/Be+mindful+of+Clojure%27s+binding
12:52	cemerick	feedback welcome from everyone, of course
12:52	ozzilee	cemerick: So would I be better off to just use a connection object and pass it to every call? I don't want to write wrapper functions in every module that uses the couchdb library.
12:52	technomancy	wasn't clojure's artifactId going to be changed to just "clojure"?
12:52	technomancy	rather than "clojure-lang"?
12:53	cemerick	ozzilee: using binding is far more idiomatic
12:54	cemerick	you can provide a with-couch macro that takes db info, that makes it a little neater so people don't have to remember the name of your library's vars
12:59	lisppaste8	ozzilee pasted "bindings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89736
13:00	cemerick	#2 gets my vote by a country mile.
13:00	ozzilee	cemerick: I'm not sure I'm clear on exactly what you mean, is that paste pretty much it?
13:01	ozzilee	cemerick: Okay, that's what I thought, that's not going to use bindings though, right?
13:01	Chousuke	you can even combine #2 and #1 if you have a default argument for the connection that is some bindable global var.
13:01	Chousuke	requires an arity overload though
13:01	cemerick	yeah, #2 is about as straightforward as it gets. You could make get and put support using a connection object for callers that prefer that, too.
13:01	cemerick	ozzilee: no, #2 does use binding
13:01	cemerick	you need to write a macro that does the binding.
13:03	ozzilee	cemerick: I don't see why. couch/get would just be a function that does an http GET with the provided connection details. couch/make-connection would return a hashmap of the connection info.
13:04	_ato	cemerick is counting from 1 not 0 :p
13:04	cemerick	hah
13:04	_ato	make-connection is #3
13:04	technomancy	ozzilee: have you seen http://github.com/danlarkin/clojure-couchdb ?
13:05	lisppaste8	ozzilee annotated #89736 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89736#1
13:06	ozzilee	Sorry, the top part was just to clarify that host and db were just strings.
13:06	ozzilee	technomancy: No, I hadn't, thanks.
13:07	_ato	hehe :)
13:07	cemerick	ozzilee: you can have #1 and #2 if you'd like, but if you only want either/or, #1 is the way to go.
13:07	ozzilee	cemerick: What's the advantage of that versus just passing the info in? It's awful verbose.
13:08	ozzilee	cemerick: Granted, less verbose if there's multiple calls in a single scope.
13:09	cemerick	only offering #2 means that callers have to have a connection object sitting around, or create one on every action.
13:10	danlarkin	but when a connection is just a string that is not expensive :)
13:10	_ato	hmm, couchdb is stateless isn't it?
13:10	_ato	it's over http
13:10	The-Kenny	_ato: Yes.
13:10	cemerick	danlarkin: you're not saying we should be hard-coding db strings, right? ;-)
13:11	danlarkin	gasp!
13:11	danlarkin	no, but it could certainly go in a config file or something like that
13:12	_ato	ozzilee: I was thinking the usage would be like this: http://gist.github.com/225294
13:12	_ato	but as it's stateless, there's not much point
13:12	The-Kenny	http://github.com/kunley/clojure-couchdb :)
13:13	ozzilee	_ato: Yeah, it's a web app, so there will be a bunch of disconnected functions instead of a single entry point.
13:15	ozzilee	Am I crazy to think that there could/should be some kind of module-scoped binding? Maybe that's not possible or desirable.
13:16	cemerick	ozzilee: the question is, how is it different from normal bindings, and what would the threading semantics be?
13:16	cemerick	You can't just assume that your lib has only one caller.
13:16	danlarkin	<3 non-reentrant code!
13:16	ozzilee	cemerick: Right, that's where atoms fall down, since there are multiple callers.
13:17	ozzilee	danlarkin: Does clojure-couchdb use your clojure-json?
13:18	_ato	hmmm... you could probably basically achieve it by having a macro that (use)s the library and automatically generates wrappers for all functions
13:19	ozzilee	_ato: Yeah, that sounds like it would work.
13:19	_ato	actually
13:19	_ato	even better
13:19	_ato	would be to custom name space it
13:19	_ato	so
13:20	danlarkin	ozzilee: it does not, it uses contrib's json
13:20	_ato	(require-with-bindings 'couchdb :as 'shop-db :host "whatever" ...)
13:20	_ato	then if you wanted to use another db
13:20	_ato	you could add
13:21	_ato	(require-with-bindings 'couchdb :as 'blog-db :host "something else" ...)
13:21	cemerick	_ato: it hurts just thinking of that, but maybe this is a matter of opinion.
13:21	ozzilee	danlarkin: Okay. Now to decide if it's worth rewriting stuff so I don't have to maintain my own library :-)
13:21	danlarkin	how is this different from bindings?
13:21	_ato	and use (shop-db/put ...), (blog-db/get ...)
13:21	_ato	danlarkin: it's module-local and propagates threads
13:21	danlarkin	ozzilee: fork it and patch 'til it's good enough :)
13:22	cemerick	danlarkin: it'd use your ns' vars to hold implicit bindings, I think.
13:22	danlarkin	le gross
13:22	ozzilee	danlarkin: Oh I'm sure it's good enough, probably better than what I've got.
13:22	cemerick	I agree.
13:22	_ato	chouser's clojure-jna does something similar
13:23	danlarkin	ozzilee: there's also http://github.com/tashafa/clutch
13:23	The-Kenny	danlarkin: Is there a reason for not-merging the view-*-functions added by kunley to your repository of clojure-couchdb?
13:24	danlarkin	The-Kenny: I started to a couple weeks ago but got distracted and have been too busy since then
13:24	ozzilee	danlarkin: Ah, a view server too. Nice.
13:24	The-Kenny	danlarkin: Oh okay.
13:27	ozzilee	I'm just trying to avoid having to pass the host and db a dozen different times in the module. Sounds like the only practical way around it is to write wrapper functions, or maybe make a macro that writes them for me.
13:28	djork	so what are the implications of using Clojure in game development?
13:28	djork	LWJGL + Clojure = ...?
13:28	cemerick	ozzilee: seriously, bindings are the way to avoid having to thread arguments through various levels of fns.
13:29	The-Kenny	ozzilee: the host is already bound to a variable and isn't an argument. You can easily do the same for the database with few modifications.
13:29	djork	what about distribution?
13:29	ozzilee	cemerick: Right, it just means I have to wrap every single call with (binding ..). It's more verbose, unless I'm terribly mistaken.
13:29	_ato	djork: java web start or just one big jar that you can double click to run?
13:30	The-Kenny	djork: Distributing clojure is easy, just create a .jar and add clojure.jar to the classpath.
13:30	djork	yeah I'm more concerned with the ugly details of running it on different platforms
13:30	djork	web start is pretty funky for most users
13:30	cemerick	ozzilee: if the caller knows what he's doing, no more than one binding form is ever necessary
13:31	djork	I can assume Java on Macs, but not on Windows or Linux.
13:31	cemerick	(assuming a single-threaded environment)
13:31	ozzilee	cemerick: Then I'm missing something. Let me paste up an example.
13:31	djork	the minimal JRE isn't too big, is it?
13:32	_ato	8 mb or so I think
13:32	_ato	17M jre-1_5_0_21-linux-i586.bin
13:33	_ato	maybe a bit bigger than I remembered :p
13:33	djork	not too big for a larger project
13:33	djork	as a percentage of the assets et al
13:33	_ato	yeah, if you've got 200mb of art or whatever
13:33	_ato	for smaller stuff you could just have a graphical installer that checks if they've got it and downloads it for them if they haven't
13:34	djork	yeah
13:34	djork	so now how about architecture?
13:34	cemerick	ozzilee: I'm think here of with-db in clutch, for example
13:34	djork	I am imagining many refs being slung about
13:35	djork	maybe I need to re-read some of the clojure presentations
13:35	djork	I'm concerned with memory usage when the world state is kept in maps or vectors that might be quite large
13:35	djork	doing lots of disj conj assoc operations, etc.
13:36	danlarkin	djork: prototype something and measure it
13:36	_ato	I've been fiddling with a little RPG type thing in Clojure (2d tiles, although they can be stacked so the game actually has 3d world coordinates)
13:36	djork	yeah, really that's the best way to go I guess
13:37	lisppaste8	ozzilee pasted "bindings 2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89737
13:37	_ato	at the moment the tile map is a sorted-map where keys are coordinates and values are game objects (which are wrapped in refs)
13:37	_ato	so you can update game objects independently
13:38	ozzilee	cemerick: I don't understand how I could do something like that with only one binding form.
13:38	_ato	but only one thing can change the map at a time
13:38	_ato	ants.clj also has an interesting way of doing it
13:39	cemerick	ozzilee: you wouldn't, but I think it's save to assume that callers aren't going to be setting db info on every db access -- the binding would be set up in the top level of a servlet handler, a JMS receive, etc.
13:39	Guest77613	hi there. What would be the most idiomatic way to walk a directory and grab the files names and paths ?
13:40	Guest77613	recursively that is
13:40	cemerick	e.g. not (binding [...] (save ..)) (binding [...] (load ...)), (binding [...] (save ...) (load ...))
13:40	djork	_ato: sounds pretty reasonable
13:41	The-Kenny	Guest77613: function(doc,req) {
13:41	The-Kenny	return {
13:41	The-Kenny	body: \"<div>42</div>\"
13:41	The-Kenny	};
13:41	The-Kenny	}
13:41	The-Kenny	user=> ; The latest field is the id. It's left blank in this example
13:41	The-Kenny	user=> (show-get "some-db" "test" "forty-two" "")
13:41	The-Kenny	user=> ("<div>42</div>")
13:41	The-Kenny	argh sorry.
13:41	The-Kenny	damn c&p
13:41	Guest77613	:D
13:41	The-Kenny	Guest77613: (file-seq (java.io.File directory-string))
13:42	The-Kenny	s/File/File./
13:42	Guest77613	thanks, i thought it looked more like javascript too :)
13:42	Guest77613	why couldn't i find that in the docs :/ i must be very tired
13:42	alexyk	is clojure dynamically typed, i.e. closer to Ruby than to Scala?
13:42	_ato	alexyk: yes!
13:43	_ato	:)
13:43	alexyk	so how are you supposed to do big projects?
13:43	alexyk	can I supply type annotations throughout?
13:43	ozzilee	cemerick: I don't follow. Are you saying I should be calling the (binding ...) in the client to the module I posted?
13:43	alexyk	can I insist they're enforced?
13:43	_ato	no
13:43	alexyk	:(
13:43	_ato	you can specify them
13:44	_ato	but they're for a performance optimisation
13:44	_ato	not for bondage and discipline :p
13:44	cemerick	alexyk: clojure is strongly typed -- any type conflicts will result in an error
13:44	alexyk	cemerick: now I'm confused... strongly typed dynamic??
13:44	djork	you can be strong and dynamic
13:44	djork	like a CEO
13:45	djork	no
13:45	_ato	haha
13:45	alexyk	so what's dynamic here?
13:45	cemerick	alexyk: there are 2 axes: strong vs. weak, dynamic vs. static
13:45	djork	like Spiderman
13:45	Guest77613	_ato : If i'm not wrong though , type hints will throw exceptions if you don't use the right types no ?
13:45	alexyk	what's an example where something is strongly typed but dynamic, hence different from Java/Scala?
13:46	_ato	dynamic means you don't specify types when eg declaring a local
13:46	cemerick	alexyk: that is clojure
13:46	_ato	so like: (let [x 5] ... )
13:46	cemerick	perl is weakly typed and dynamic
13:46	cemerick	java is strongly typed and (sorta) static
13:46	alexyk	_ato: Scala infers the type. so you don't have to declare it either
13:46	cemerick	as is scale
13:46	cemerick	scala*
13:46	alexyk	but it always knows what it is
13:47	alexyk	the question is, does clojure know always what a type of x is?
13:47	Guest77613	no
13:47	_ato	sometimes
13:47	cemerick	oh goodness
13:47	_ato	in that case yes
13:47	Guest77613	well i mean there is boxing right ?
13:47	_ato	but it doesn't need to know
13:47	cemerick	alexyk: yes, just like any other JVM lang, you can get the type of an object
13:47	alexyk	so say I want always to insist a parameter of a function is Int. Can I enforce that, so you won't pass strings into it?
13:48	cemerick	alexyk: No, that's the dynamic part.
13:48	_ato	alexyk: yes, by explicitly checking
13:48	_ato	but not as in java
13:48	alexyk	cemerick: _ato: make up your minds guys :)
13:48	Chousuke	they're both right :)
13:48	cemerick	I think _ato is trying to make the hard sell :-)
13:48	Chousuke	no, you can't and yes you can.
13:48	hiredman	cemerick: you can get at type information at runtime, sure
13:49	_ato	hehe
13:49	alexyk	_ato: do I have to check myself, or can I annotate and make clojure check for me?
13:49	cemerick	I don't think manual assertions are ever what someone is talking about w.r.t. type enforcement.
13:49	hiredman	but clojure does not always know the type of an object
13:49	hiredman	that is what warn-on-reflection is about
13:49	alexyk	hiredman: you're messing around with clojure too?
13:49	alexyk	:)
13:49	_ato	alexyk: you originally mentioned Ruby, it's just like that from the type enforcement perspective
13:50	alexyk	_ato: I'm scared as heck of Ruby. I wonder if I can make annotations work for me.
13:50	hiredman	alexyk: I've only ever written a few lines of scala
13:50	cemerick	_ato: I'm not certain, but Ruby coerces values, so it's far more lax in that regard
13:50	lisppaste8	ozzilee annotated #89737 "Maybe this is what I want?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89737#1
13:51	hiredman	alexyk: why is ruby scary?
13:51	alexyk	Ruby degenerated into testing frameworks because of the lack of type safety. Hence the whole "agile testing" industry... recreate type system via unit tests.
13:51	cemerick	alexyk: this is worth a read re: type systems: http://www.pphsg.org/cdsmith/types.html
13:51	Guest77613	When you type hint a Clojure func, and you provide it with different types arguments
13:51	Guest77613	it will try to cast them
13:51	Guest77613	if the cast doesn't work
13:51	Guest77613	you get a cast exception
13:51	Guest77613	it's pretty straightforward
13:51	alexyk	so the question is how clear are the casting rules then
13:51	Chousuke	I recall Rich mentioning that he wouldn't oppose an optional "type system" based on predicates, but I don't think he (or anyone else) has any solid ideas about implementing something like that yet.
13:52	hiredman	alexyk: plenty of typed languages use testing frameworks
13:52	alexyk	hiredman: right, yet in Scala you can get by without one, while in Ruby you really have to have one.
13:52	Guest77613	it's pretty confusing with strings
13:52	rfgpfeiffer	Chousuke: datalog is also based on predicates and will always terminate
13:52	hiredman	alexyk: I think the divide is less typed/dynamic as functional/imperative
13:52	Guest77613	because everything in java can be casted to string
13:52	Guest77613	so if you type hint a func so it only accepts strings
13:52	Guest77613	it will actually accept anything
13:52	Chousuke	Guest77613: huh, they can?
13:53	hiredman	alexyk: functional code is more transparent and easier to reason about
13:53	Chousuke	what happens?
13:53	rfgpfeiffer	weren't there plans for embedding datalog in clojure?
13:53	Chousuke	do they just get .toString calleD?
13:53	Chousuke	rfgpfeiffer: something like that. or at least some handwawing :)
13:53	alexyk	toString would be a massive fail
13:53	Chousuke	waving*
13:53	hiredman	rfgpfeiffer: there is something called datalog in contrib
13:53	hiredman	Guest77613: I don't think that is true
13:54	cemerick	Guest77613: that's very not true
13:54	_ato	hmm
13:54	cemerick	,((fn [#^java.util.ArrayList s] (.floatValue s)) 6)
13:54	clojurebot	6.0
13:54	_ato	,((fn [#^String s] s) 5)
13:54	clojurebot	5
13:54	_ato	,(type ((fn [#^String s] s) 5))
13:54	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
13:54	cemerick	The hint is just that, a hint. No type enforcement at fn boundaries
13:54	Guest77613	(defn repeat-2 [#^String a]
13:54	Guest77613	(str a a))
13:55	Guest77613	#'user/repeat-2
13:55	Guest77613	user> (repeat-2 "apo") \|"apoapo"
13:55	Guest77613	user>(repeat-2123)
13:55	Guest77613	\|"123123"
13:55	Guest77613	user> (repeat-2 [1 2 3 4])
13:55	Guest77613	"[1 2 3 4][1 2 3 4]"
13:55	Chousuke	Guest77613: it's not being cast to string; the type hint is just ignored.
13:55	cemerick	right, str is converting your parameters into strings.
13:55	Guest77613	Chousuke: how can it be ignored ?
13:56	ozzilee	cemerick: Sorry to keep hounding this. Could you take a look at my last paste? Is that at all idiomatic? Or can you point me towards some code that does things idiomatically?
13:56	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "Java does not convert non-strings to strings automatically." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89740
13:57	Chousuke	Guest77613: because it's just a hint
13:57	Guest77613	ok got it
13:57	Chousuke	Guest77613: Clojure uses it to avoid reflection when the type is correct, but will fall back to using reflection if it's not.
13:57	_ato	,((fn [#^Long s] 5 + s) "foo")
13:57	Guest77613	did another test function that made more sense ..
13:57	clojurebot	"foo"
13:57	cemerick	ozzilee: no, bindings only hold within the scope of the binding.
13:57	Guest77613	ok
13:57	_ato	hmm.. that's weird
13:57	Chousuke	5 + s?
13:57	Guest77613	so in theory it would be possible to make clojure throw an exception instead of just using reflection
13:57	_ato	oh wait
13:57	_ato	brain dead
13:57	Chousuke	you mean (+ 5 s) :P
13:58	Guest77613	when a type hint isnt being respected ?
13:58	_ato	all this talk of ruby is confusing me :p
13:58	_ato	,((fn [#^Long s] (+ 5 s)) "foo")
13:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
13:58	chouser	Chousuke: no, it doesn't fall back on reflection if the type hint is wrong
13:58	alexyk	,(+ 5 "4")
13:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
13:58	cemerick	ozzilee: you need to let your caller establish the binding themselves. If they're doing things in the right way in general, they'll establish the binding once, do all of their couch stuff, and be done.
13:58	alexyk	well this fails at least
13:58	chouser	it falls back to reflection if there is no type hint.
13:58	_ato	,((fn [#^Long s] (+ s 5)) "foo")
13:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
13:58	_ato	,((fn [s] (+ s 5)) "foo")
13:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
13:58	cemerick	alexyk: right, clojure is strongly typed
13:58	_ato	hmm
13:59	Guest77613	chouser : well then what does it do when there is a type hint, but it's not respected at runtime ?
13:59	_ato	alexyk: yeah, if that worked, it'd be an example of "weak typing"
13:59	Chousuke	,((fn [#^Integer s] (.floatValue s)) 5.0)
13:59	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Double cannot be cast to java.lang.Integer
13:59	chouser	if casting to the hinted type wouldn't help (say when calling a clojure fn rather than a Java method) then no casting is done regardless of whether a type hint was supplied or not
13:59	Chousuke	ah, I see.
13:59	cemerick	alexyk: you're looking for static typing, which is decidedly not clojure's approach, though it does avoid reflection when you provide it with type hints appropriately.
13:59	ozzilee	cemerick: Bah. Okay, I give up, I'll just do things verbosely. Thanks.
13:59	cemerick	ozzilee: I'm unclear as to what you think is verbose...?
14:00	saml	hey, did anyone write mp3 encoder purely in clojure?
14:00	saml	or is there lisp/scheme implementation so that i can easily translate?
14:00	alexyk	interesting... just gauging stuff... are all Lisps like this?
14:00	chouser	mosts lisps don't run on top of a OO runtime like the JVM
14:00	_ato	alexyk: most, but there are some that are statically typed
14:01	Guest77613	alexyk : i think that there is a strong tradition of dynamic typing among lisps
14:01	alexyk	true, but in terms of dynamic and strong?
14:01	ozzilee	cemerick: I want to write a library that hides the couchdb access from its clients. Every function in that library has to either pass in or bind the hostname and the database name. I can't just set them in one place.
14:01	alexyk	how cal clojure be dynamic if Java is not, and JVM is made for Java originally?
14:01	alexyk	can
14:01	_ato	saml: why would you want write one instead of using a library? just for fun?
14:01	cemerick	alexyk: most schemes do not have an object system built-in, so it's less of an issue.
14:01	chouser	alexyk: When I think I want a static type system it's because I'd like to catch a certain class of errors at compile time. You have a similar desire?
14:02	saml	_ato, to package into applet or web start instead of doing JNI with lame and including lame for windows,mac,linux....
14:02	cemerick	alexyk: Java is dynamic under the covers, but javac and the Java language don't provide an easy mechanism to access it.
14:02	alexyk	chouser: exactly. I'm am OCaml/Scala addict in terms of long and painful compile cycle, but when stuff compiles, it usually works.
14:02	chouser	alexyk: as it turns out, the Java language is static as processed by javac, but the JVM is quite dynamic internally.
14:02	alexyk	chouser: interesting
14:03	cemerick	chouser: hah, beat you this time. :-P ;-)
14:03	chouser	cemerick: :-)
14:03	_ato	saml: ah fair enough. I can't even find a pure java one, so there'd be no chance there's a pure Clojure one ;)
14:03	cemerick	alexyk: I used scala for about 8 months before coming to clojure. I don't miss it one bit :-)
14:04	alexyk	so with clojure, is there a similar experience that once stuff compiles it works, or is it Ruby-like, lots of unit testing?
14:04	saml	_ato, yup :P i was just wondering
14:04	Chousuke	chouser: heh, I read John Rose's post about continuations on the JVM today :P Scary stuff.
14:04	_ato	saml: looks like there's a pure java vorbis encoder though, if you don't need specifically mp3
14:04	Chousuke	(old post, but I was looking through the archives)
14:04	alexyk	cemerick: can you summarize your pain/pleasure points for Scala vs clojure?
14:04	technomancy	John Rose is the man.
14:04	_ato	alexyk: hehe.. I don't find in java that once stuff compiles "it works"
14:04	saml	i found a C implementation. i might port it: http://www.mp3-tech.org/programmer/sources/shine.zip
14:05	cemerick	alexyk: I'm not at all into the TDD stuff, but judicious testing is invaluable IMO.
14:05	chouser	alexyk: I have come to believe that required static type systems are an obstacle to a lot of interesting design work. I'm hopeful about the possibility of an optional static type system, but I'm not sure what that would look like.
14:06	saml	_ato, yah currently, our "reader" client is flash plugin. so it should be mp3 or flv. i found pure java speex encoder. so our "creator" (web start) client can convert to speex, but "reader" client can't read spx directly. it should be flv.
14:06	alexyk	cemerick: true. But what's the largest project in clojure so far? Also, I've just started reading the book... so pardon me for asking, does it have objects? (I don't really need them.)
14:06	cemerick	alexyk: Scala's type system is incredibly complicated, as is the language. Implicits are scary as hell. The impl. of traits similarly so. The easy mixing of mutable and immutable state makes it easy to turn things into a mash IMO.
14:06	chouser	alexyk: I would also contend that if the only errors in your program can be caught by a type system, then the program's not doing much of interest.
14:07	saml	so, i have 2 choices: implement mp3 encoder in "publisher" client. or implement flv encoder on client. or make swf with embedded speex
14:07	saml	so 3 choices haha
14:07	chouser	alexyk: conversely, if you write tests that check the logic of your program, they will tend to catch type errors as well, making the effort of correct typing superfluous.
14:07	alexyk	chouser: true. Yet you can't deny the strange experience of forcing a Haskell/OCaml/Scala program to compile and then seeing it work correctly the first time it runs.
14:07	cemerick	alexyk: The largest projects are almost certainly not public at this point. Ours is getting pretty sizable, nearing the scope of our existing Java 'legacy' codebase from the past 5 years.
14:07	chouser	alexyk: happens to me in clojure all the time ;-)
14:07	_ato	alexyk: Clojure isn't object-oriented in the java classes sense. You can use and make java classes if you really want to, but you normally would just use data structures and functions instead
14:07	saml	or forget about fattening "publisher" client.. and convert everything in the server
14:08	cemerick	alexyk: and yes, "there's objects", but that's really not the interesting question.
14:08	alexyk	_ato: that's good, I didn't need no stinking objects in OCaml
14:08	alexyk	although it was OCaml, nobody used the O
14:08	alexyk	so I guess you package functions and their data into... what? closures? :)
14:09	chouser	that's one way, though not the most common
14:09	alexyk	what's an equivalent of ML/OCaml module?
14:09	cemerick	alexyk: there's proxy and gen-class currently; this is what's coming down the road, but it might be more than you're ready for yet: https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes
14:09	djork	data is data, and code is data :)
14:09	cemerick	alexyk: namespaces are modules, roughly
14:09	chouser	it's probably more common to group related functions (that possibly operate on similar data collection) into a namespace. Then your data is held in Clojure persistent collection (nested vectors/maps as needed)
14:10	alexyk	chouser: ah ok, makes sense. Those I see in REPL.
14:11	chouser	there's real power in using the same core collection types for all or most data
14:12	chouser	vs. each lib having it's own objects with its own fields and methods that can't operate on anyone else's data.
14:13	gbt	alexyk: I'm not sure how far your clojure goes? (I'm new too) but the common interface to all the datatypes is very cool :)
14:13	alexyk	so, what's the biggest open-source clojure project folks are aware of? I want to see me some githubbin'!
14:14	chouser	though as we speak rhickey is hard at work adding the ability to create efficient app-specific data objects with related methods.
14:14	alexyk	gbt: my closure is 1 day old. :) But my Scala is 6 months, and OCaml is a couple years... I also read 1/3 of the Practical Lisp book. :)
14:14	hiredman	http://github.com/languages/Clojure
14:14	chouser	probably contrib. :-P
14:15	alexyk	hiredman: ok, I should say, doing something else but self
14:15	cemerick	alexyk: yeah, those are all projects using clojure
14:16	alexyk	btw Scala tries to standardize all the fields via traits, it's really complex but seems to work in 2.8
14:16	technomancy	alexyk: the altlaw project is the biggest open codebase probably.
14:16	rhickey	chouser: but people will be able to use existing code on that app-specific data - it is both app-specific and generic
14:16	chouser	rhickey: ah, good point.
14:16	rhickey	I'm working hard on making the generic use fast
14:16	chouser	esp. if (:k x) is just as fast as (.k x)
14:17	rhickey	and the specific data dynamic
14:17	_ato	alexyk: altlaw is at: http://github.com/stuartsierra
14:17	alexyk	technomancy: _ato: thanks
14:17	_ato	the actual running version is: http://www.altlaw.org/
14:18	alexyk	rhickey: performance is another thing I wanted to ask, not to start any flames, but to understand JVM better. Is there any reason why Scala or Clojure would be faster or slower due to type system differences?
14:19	rhickey	alexyk: yes
14:20	alexyk	rhickey: which way?
14:20	Licenser	aloa good evening everyone
14:22	alexyk	I mean if JVM is dynamic enough, that shouldn't slow things down, especially if you don't incur casts by designing things carefully, right?
14:23	alexyk	(also saw something about JVM designed to support dynamic languages better)
14:23	rhickey	alexyk: the more type information you have the faster things can be, potentially. Note that you can give Clojure type information. Also, if a system is designed to be dynamic, it will likely be faster at dynamic things then one that wasn't (or you will be rolling your own dynamic things, with perf on your head)
14:23	rhickey	but there are no general answers applicable to specific problems, thus the futility of the exercise
14:24	alexyk	rhickey: yeah, I'll play with things like JSON parser/database insertions... I generally parse Twitter JSON stream then mine it.
14:25	alexyk	are there good JDBC and/or Berkeley DB interfaces?
14:25	Licenser	A question, did someone ever started to put problems from language shootout / benchmarks in clojure code?
14:25	technomancy	what do folks think about clojure.test/report's :summary method returning true or false depending on if all the tests passed or not?
14:25	technomancy	that would also cause run-tests to return a useful value
14:25	technomancy	easy 1-liner
14:25	Licenser	alexyk: someone is developping a nice driver for mongodb, which would allow to store json directly in the database
14:26	alexyk	Licenser: thx for the idea!
14:26	Licenser	I use it for a pet project of mine, it's still alpha (the driver) but it works stable for me
14:29	_ato	alexyk: but yes SQL/BDB are easy enough. For BDB: http://github.com/gcv/cupboard
14:29	_ato	there's a couple of different SQL libraries, there's a simple one in contrib
14:30	alexyk	_ato: looovely cupboard, thx
14:30	Licenser	One thing I noticed while writing clojure, it is damn hard to write functional functions. I nearly always end up having sideeffects - is that a general problem or is it because I work on a web app?
14:31	_ato	Licenser: if it's a typical database-backed webapp, yes probably because it's a webapp
14:31	chouser	Licenser: the difficulty varies between different domains. I'd be a bit surprised if web apps were particularly hard, though.
14:31	alexyk	the clojure book lists contrib under google code, while here it's referred to via git. Which one is current?
14:31	chouser	alexyk: git
14:32	alexyk	why is it called contrib when in fact it's a stdlib? :)
14:32	Licenser	okay that makes me feel better, I was a bit frustrated that I don't manage to write pure functions, I nearly always end up with either a query, a commit or rendering in the function :/
14:33	chouser	Licenser: if you think of the input being the http req + the user's state (database, session, etc.) and the output being the page to render + new user state, then your whole app is a function. :-)
14:33	alexyk	Licenser: web it notoriously impure, downright dirty stuff :)
14:33	_ato	alexyk: there's sort of two "standard libraries" for clojure. There's "core" which comes with the language but is very small
14:33	Licenser	chouser: it's not about beeing hard to write the app - it's incredible easy I love clojure - I am just wondering if the fact that I don't get pure functions comes from he tasks or my incapability :P
14:33	_ato	alexyk: and "contrib" which has lots of handy but absolutely necessary stuff
14:33	Licenser	chouser: I like that vew ^^
14:33	_ato	err
14:33	_ato	not absolutely*
14:34	chouser	right. only seq-utils and repl-utils are absolutely necessary
14:34	chouser	:-)
14:34	chouser	oh, and str-utils2
14:34	alexyk	_ato: right, that's why my first reaction is, that's how contrib might have started, but if everybody is using it, it should be called something like stdlib, with contrib usually having kinda-nice things you can live without somebody bothered to upload
14:35	alexyk	just a newbie's feedback, I know you guys got used to it
14:35	chouser	it's an interesting thought. might be useful to split contrib.
14:35	technomancy	"experimental contrib" vs "tried-and-true, everyone uses"
14:36	Licenser	I find some things in contrib very confusing
14:36	chouser	The hard line is between core and contrib: rhickey approves every commit to core individually, but not for contrib.
14:36	Licenser	coming form ruby I'm used to have a huge stdlib with all kind of nifty stuff
14:36	chouser	Licenser: We're still very early for that.
14:36	Licenser	chouser: then just rename it from clojure.contrib to clojure.stdlib :P
14:37	Licenser	chouser: i know I know, but tings like seq-utils really could be in somet kind of stdlib
14:37	chouser	but there's definitely experimental stuff in contrib that's not necessarily recommended yet.
14:38	Licenser	I agree but some things are a defacto standard right?
14:38	chouser	there's also a hard line between contrib and non-contrib -- if it requires an external dependency or doesn't fall under the Clojure license or hasn't been approved (at least the broad strokes) by rhickey, then it's not in contrib.
14:38	chouser	so there may be value in splitting contrib itself, but it might be hard to define the line there. Could get political. :-(
14:39	Licenser	I don't know I find the whole license stuff a bit radical
14:39	_ato	mm.. I thought the initial idea was stuff would start off in contrib and could be "promoted" to clojure (not necessarily core) if it was tried and true and everybody used it
14:39	chouser	and I don't think we want any extra structure or policy unless it's needed -- such things generally come with hidden cost
14:40	Licenser	Not sure if it is because I was looking at licenses the moment I found clojure but I lately got the feeling that OS licenes at time make it harder to provide stuff as open source
14:40	chouser	_ato: the licensing allows for that
14:41	_ato	chouser: yeah, I was just talking about splitting contrib, not in reference to licenses
14:41	chouser	Licenser: yes, requiring a CA surely discourages some contributions, but has its benefits as well.
14:42	Licenser	It's a broader feeling, like alone choosing a license is a tasks that kind of discurages me from releasing stuff as OS
14:42	Licenser	if I keep it closed source I just can say: leave me alone
14:42	chouser	Licenser: ah, I see. yeah, I can certainly see that.
14:43	Licenser	That's not even related with clojure
14:43	chouser	I once took a fair amount of abuse for trying charge for an upgrade to something I originally released as open source. :-P
14:43	Licenser	I've a ruby project I hope to be OS one day but when I set down to find a fitting license, I got hugely frustrated after a day and decided screw OS for now I keep it closed untill It calls for it :P
14:43	Licenser	heh
14:44	Licenser	yes it's horrible, open source is a jungle and event he liceses are hating eachoterh - at least partially
14:44	djork	anybody ever written a memory usage macro?
14:44	djork	like time, but for memory
14:44	Licenser	call it mime
14:44	djork	I like it
14:45	djork	I'm just not sure if it's right
14:45	djork	(my macro)
14:45	_ato	how would a memory usage macro work?
14:46	_ato	it gives you the change in memory usage so you can see if you're leaking memory?
14:47	djork	yeah
14:47	djork	just to see how much memory changes while evaluating & exprs
14:48	chouser	I think so -- you might check the google group. It's hard to be accurate on the JVM though.
14:49	_ato	it'd be hard to do accurately as the GC may not have collected everything even if you do (System/gc)
14:49	_ato	yeah
14:51	djork	yeah the GC makes it kind of suck
14:51	djork	but it sort of works
14:51	jasapp	that'd be nice to have something like common lisp's time
14:51	jasapp	one that reported bytes
14:52	jasapp	I don't know if that would make sense in a jvm context though
14:53	djork	I think it's pretty accurate right now
14:53	djork	[] is 8 bytes
14:53	djork	?
14:53	djork	or is that 8 8 byte blocks
14:53	djork	no it's bytes
14:55	chouser	arohner: are you here? just looked at your Scriptjure README -- looks quite useful.
14:55	djork	http://gist.github.com/225372
14:56	djork	it's not too accurate...
14:56	chouser	arohner: I wondered if you knew you could tweak your js macro to treat ~ and ~@ specially, for example to do what your 'clj' does now.
14:57	arsatiki	ohh
14:57	_ato	(mime []) => -3256 bytes used
14:57	_ato	hmm
14:57	arsatiki	scriptjure made my head asplode out of happiness
14:57	arsatiki	because it's precisely what I've been looking for
14:58	djork	_ato: it has to "warm up"
14:58	djork	it's certainly not perfect since the VM makes it kind of fuzzy
14:58	djork	hence the voodoo 5 System/gc calls :)
14:58	_ato	yeah (mime (vec (range 1000))) gives something more sensible looking
15:00	_ato	unless clojure is so efficient that each empty vector reduces memory usage by 3k. :-P
15:01	djork	heh
15:01	chouser	I think rhickey has wanted something like scriptjure too.
15:02	djork	by golly I think it works
15:15	alexyk	Licenser: is this the clojure-mongo thing you mentioned? http://github.com/gilbertl/mongo-clojure-wrapper
15:15	Licenser	alexyk: nope this one I'm talking about: http://github.com/somnium/congomongo
15:17	alexyk	cool
15:17	jasapp	Licenser: are you using mongodb?
15:17	Licenser	jasapp: yes
15:17	jasapp	have you been using it for awhile?
15:18	Licenser	it has a few issues I see and it kind of seems as the server is still is in a development phase but it's very nice to use
15:18	Licenser	jasapp: a week or so, no production use just developping with it
15:18	Licenser	but it integreates very nicely in clojure
15:18	jasapp	I'm using it for a work related project right now
15:18	Licenser	(save for the few issues it has :P)
15:18	jasapp	I'm awaiting the addition of the or operator.
15:18	Licenser	heh
15:19	jasapp	they say it's supposed be out on November 11th
15:19	Licenser	update is a tricky thing, it isn't yet doing all I want
15:19	Licenser	jasapp: nods they are still in heavy development
15:19	Licenser	did you ask the $in question on the mailinglist? ^^
15:19	alexyk	I wonder how much can I stuff into mongodb... I get a Twitter feed, about 2 million tweets/daily. Each tweet is a JSON string with ~20 fields (with a nested user field). Could it handle 100 million such tweets?
15:20	duncanm	technomancy: is your branch of swank-clojure the canonical one now or should i stay with the jochu branch?
15:20	jasapp	alexyk: did you see that nosql benchmark?
15:20	alexyk	jasapp: no, which one?
15:20	fanatico	Good question came up on news.yc. Why doesn't memoize use java.lang.ref.SoftReferences?
15:20	technomancy	duncanm: use the "maven" branch of my fork to be most up-to-date.
15:20	jasapp	I want to say they looked at mongo, couchdb, and tokyo cabinet
15:20	jasapp	let me see if I can find it
15:20	technomancy	duncanm: I'm about to release a 1.0, would love to get some more eyes on the latest version. hop on the mailing list if you have any problems.
15:20	Licenser	alexyk: I use it with 1 million fields at the moeent eats up about 2 GB of hdd but works very fast with good indexes so I think it sould be fine if you've the HW to back that up
15:20	duncanm	technomancy: and if i want to run start a swank server from within another app, do you have a snippet ready for doing that? (I had one before, but I lost it)
15:21	duncanm	technomancy: i used to have a jar file of swank-clojure and i'd launch it from my app, and use M-x slime-connect from emacs to connect to it
15:21	technomancy	duncanm: I will make sure it gets into the readme before 1.0; in the mean time take a look at drewr's clot project on github; it's a good example
15:21	alexyk	Licenser: yeah, HW is no prob. Berkeley DB eats about as much per 1 mil/twits.
15:21	duncanm	but i lost that script ;-(
15:21	duncanm	technomancy: nice, thank you
15:22	Licenser	alexyk: if you want a word of advice, don't use BDB it does not stand for berkeley but for braking DB in my experience
15:22	Licenser	I really hate BDB
15:22	Licenser	I hade huge problems both with near data lass due to some stupid updates without backwards compatibility
15:22	alexyk	Licenser: well, I've managed to stuff it allright from Scala... was pain though
15:22	duncanm	technomancy: http://github.com/drewr/clot/blob/master/src/com/draines/clot/main.clj is it 'swank!' that's the key part there?
15:23	technomancy	yep
15:23	duncanm	technomancy: and if i have maven installed, and i use your maven branch, mvn install will make me a jar file of swank-clojure?
15:23	technomancy	duncanm: yeah, that's the idea
15:24	alexyk	Licenser: I had to write Scala classes in a Java way and convert Scala types to Java's so that BDB would know how to store them... Is it the same in clojure?
15:24	Licenser	no you can store most of clojures objects directly in mongodb
15:24	Licenser	and retreive them
15:25	alexyk	right, but about BDB -- can you store clojure structs as is in BDB, are they like Java classes for that purpose?
15:25	Licenser	as long as it are native types (hashmaps, arrays, ints, stirings lists
15:25	duncanm	technomancy: should i be using your version of slime too? right now i have the boinkor.net version checked out
15:26	technomancy	duncanm: yes, and there's a "from source" install instructions section in the readme
15:26	Licenser	alexyk: never worked with BDB and never will unless someone places a gun on my head and forces me too and even then I#d have a hard time to make a call
15:27	alexyk	Licenser: well, JE is not that bad, actually
15:27	Licenser	JE?
15:27	drewr	duncanm: it doesn't quite work flawlessly
15:27	alexyk	BDB Java Edition
15:27	drewr	I need to get sldb support in there
15:27	Licenser	don't care, I care about the fact that it has a huge design flaw with bacwards incompatibility
15:28	Licenser	which makes it a no go for me
15:28	_ato	alexyk: yeah, if you use cupboard it'll automatically marshall the clojure data types
15:28	duncanm	drewr: ahh
15:28	duncanm	technomancy: i don't see swank-clojure in elpa
15:28	technomancy	duncanm: look further down in the readme to the "from source" intructions
15:28	Licenser	I like things that don't have a auto-brake-and-delete-my-data feature
15:28	technomancy	I'm waiting for more people to give feedback and test before I submit it
15:29	hiredman	fanatico: it's come up on irc before
15:29	alexyk	_ato: the problem is, you don't want to store class info more than once... JE provides for that, wonder if cupboard takes advantage of that.
15:29	duncanm	ahhh
15:29	drewr	technomancy: I'm running the latest, but haven't tried the mvn stuff
15:29	alexyk	drewr: what is clot? :)
15:29	drewr	alexyk: IRC client
15:29	alexyk	ah ok
15:30	drewr	it's more of a bot though
15:30	Licenser	likely the cl(ojure b)ot
15:30	technomancy	I like clot, but I really don't like the fact that cd ~/src/cl TAB no longer completes to clojure. =(
15:31	drewr	I haven't been able to do that in quite some time
15:31	technomancy	heh
15:31	drewr	clojure-contrib, clj-*, etc.
15:31	drewr	clabango
15:32	technomancy	drewr: I meant to ask you, do you know why swank's start-server must be wrapped in a clojure.main/repl call?
15:32	alexyk	oh, another noob's question: is there a jline option for REPL?
15:32	technomancy	(I should know this, but there are vast swaths of swank that I haven't really dug into yet)
15:32	drewr	technomancy: I can't give you a detailed answer, but I found that swank really wants a repl set up before it can do anything
15:33	drewr	slime apparently starts a repl, runs swank, and then connects to it
15:33	technomancy	drewr: it seems like it'd be nice to have it be able to set up one for you. maybe that could be added to swank-clojure if everyone who wants to embed swank is going to need it.
15:33	drewr	definitely
15:34	drewr	there's an abstraction there waiting to be codified
15:34	technomancy	I'll try to sneak that in before 1.0 escapes.
15:34	_ato	alexyk: apparantly "java -cp jline-0.9.91.jar:clojure.jar jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.lang.Repl" I just use emacs though
15:35	alexyk	_ato: nice... I also use Emacs but log into a remote box where I find console-level jline useful. If the darn thing could only do C-r. I know about rlwrap, too, and the fact that jline can't search backwards makes me mad at it.
15:36	technomancy	alexyk: I prefer launching it inside rlwrap
15:38	_ato	alexyk: if there's no firewall in the way you can start a swank server inside your remote process and use M-x slime-connect in emacs to connect over a tcp socket
15:39	spuz	Question about iteration: Is map the only way to iterate through items in a list? Say I want to print each of the items in a list, I could say (map println mylist) but this would map each item to nil, return a new list and print each item as a side effect which doesn't seem to really fit conceptually with what I'm doing.
15:39	alexyk	_ato: hah! now I start to understand what swank is :)
15:39	_ato	spuz: (doseq [x mylist] (println x))
15:40	spuz	_ato: that's much nicer :)
15:40	_ato	evaluates eagerly (returns nil)
15:41	tknudsen	hey, are compojure/cascade stable enough for me to rely upon for simple apps? comments appreciated
15:42	hiredman	spuz: also, seqs are immutable so mapping print over a seq will make a seq of nils, but not change the source seq
15:43	spuz	yep, I get that but even so, map is wasting my time if I'm just relying on side effects :p
15:46	spuz	wasting its time rather*
15:47	duncanm	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Illegal/unsupported escape sequence near index 4
15:47	duncanm	eek
15:47	duncanm	i can't build swank-clojure
15:51	StartsWithK	hi
15:52	StartsWithK	if i want to use xml security from clojure (jsr 105), what is the best lib for that?
15:52	Licenser	StartsWithK: that is not true StartsWithK starts with S
15:52	StartsWithK	Licenser: by my name does
15:52	StartsWithK	can clojure.xml do that?
15:53	_ato	KresimirStartsWithK
15:53	Licenser	sneaky person you should raname yourself to Steward then you could use StartsWithS
15:53	StartsWithK	:)
15:53	Licenser	and sorry I don't know about clojure.xml
15:54	StartsWithK	i looked at jdom and clojure.xml, clojure.xml dosn't use standard dom api, so i think that will not work, and jdom has some problems with xml security
15:54	StartsWithK	is there some other lib?
16:01	ordnungswidrig	re
16:02	duncanm	bah
16:03	duncanm	technomancy: util/class_browse.clj doesn't support windows ;-P
16:06	duncanm	oh, this is a nasty bug
16:15	duncanm	dum de dum
16:27	duncanm	drewr: ping?
16:28	drewr	duncanm: pong
16:28	duncanm	drewr: i'm having problems building swank-clojure because my paths are in Windows style
16:28	duncanm	Compiling swank.commands.completion to c:\Users\Duncan\git\swank-clojure\target\classes
16:28	duncanm	and then it dies on \U
16:29	duncanm	i'm trying to define file.separator to "/", but to no avail
16:29	drewr	with "ant -Dfile.sep..." ?
16:29	drewr	I'm not sure if that should work or not
16:29	drewr	I haven't looked at the latest swank build
16:29	duncanm	drewr: mvn has a -D flag too
16:29	drewr	I just use it out of src
16:30	duncanm	and i saw that you can write something like <configuration><file.separator>...</...>
16:30	drewr	probably so
16:30	duncanm	drewr: yeah, so do i, but right now i wanna embed it inside another app, so i need to give it a jar
16:31	drewr	( cd src; jar cvf ../swank.jar swank )
16:31	duncanm	oh
16:31	drewr	;-)
16:32	duncanm	drewr: doesn't that include all the files, and not just the class files?
16:33	drewr	yes, but in this case it's just clj files
16:33	duncanm	that's enough?
16:33	duncanm	that's great
16:34	drewr	clojure looks in its classpath for .class or .clj
16:35	hiredman	was there ever a 1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT download available from clojure.org?
16:39	chouser	I don't think so
16:42	chouser	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tarball/9bde10d
16:42	duncanm	drewr: beautiful, i got it working, thanks
16:44	drewr	duncanm: great!
16:46	ordnungswidrig	how do I test for a function
16:47	ordnungswidrig	I mean how do I test if a value is a function?
16:47	hoeck1	ordnungswidrig: ifn? or fn?
16:48	ordnungswidrig	hoeck1: there I go. I search for function?
16:48	ordnungswidrig	hoeck1: what's the difference?
16:49	chouser	,[(ifn? {}) (fn? {})]
16:49	clojurebot	[true false]
16:49	hoeck1	ordnungswidrig: ifn? also returns true for keys, maps symbols and everything that implements IFn
16:49	chouser	,(juxt {} [ifn? fn?])
16:49	clojurebot	#<core$juxt__4916$fn__4926 clojure.core$juxt__4916$fn__4926@7e8bd9>
16:49	ordnungswidrig	,((juxt {} [inf? fn?]))
16:49	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: inf? in this context
16:50	ordnungswidrig	,((juxt {} [ifn? fn?]))
16:50	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentArrayMap
16:50	hiredman	…
16:50	ordnungswidrig	give up
16:50	hiredman	,((juxt ifn? fn?) {})
16:50	clojurebot	[true false]
16:50	chouser	hiredman: thanks!
16:51	ordnungswidrig	good night for now
16:51	ordnungswidrig	cu all
16:51	hoeck1	ordnungswidrig: n8
16:52	hiredman	juxt is my new favorite function
16:53	chouser	is it a superset of partial?
16:53	chouser	hm, no but has some overlap
16:53	hiredman	not really
16:54	chouser	oh. no -- would if partial allowed a single (fn) arg.
16:54	hiredman	it's, uh, sort of map+repeat
16:54	hiredman	but not really
16:55	hiredman	update-in+vec+repeat
16:55	hiredman	,(repeat 2 {})
16:55	clojurebot	({} {})
16:55	hiredman	,(vec (repeat 2 {}))
16:55	clojurebot	[{} {}]
16:55	hiredman	,(update-in (vec (repeat 2 {})) [0] ifn?)
16:55	clojurebot	[true {}]
16:55	hiredman	,(update-in (update-in (vec (repeat 2 {})) [0] ifn?) [1] fn?)
16:55	clojurebot	[true false]
16:56	hiredman	,((juxt ifn? fn?) {})
16:56	clojurebot	[true false]
16:57	hiredman	,(-> {} ((partial repeat 2)) vec (update-in [0] ifn?) (update-in [1] fn?))
16:57	clojurebot	[true false]
16:57	javucci	hello
16:57	Chousuke	I still don't like that ((partial foo bar)) form
16:58	javucci	please, an easy way to install clojure with emacs on linux
16:59	hiredman	Chousuke: I don't mind, obviously
16:59	hiredman	~emacs
16:59	clojurebot	emacs is best configured for Clojure with instructions at http://technomancy.us/126
17:03	duncanm	drewr: hey, i think there's a little bug in the swank startup script?
17:03	duncanm	No value supplied for key: true in 19: swank.commands.basic$eval__1000$load_file__1002.invoke(basic.clj:133)
17:04	duncanm	does it have something to do with this line? (swap! stop (fn [_] true))
17:04	duncanm	hmm
17:04	drewr	duncanm: likely, I haven't tested it with any recent swank
17:05	drewr	this is the version I'm using with that code you saw: 20090804201540+bfb55c4
17:06	The-Kenny	I really dislike the installation process of swank-clojure... I managed to set up my own environment, but I'm afraid to update swank-clojure because I don't want to break it.
17:08	rhickey	ok - keyword call sites are in place in new branch
17:12	duncanm	cool
17:14	technomancy	The-Kenny: you dislike M-x clojure-install or the new process from the maven branch?
17:14	The-Kenny	technomancy: M-x clojure-install
17:15	technomancy	The-Kenny: you'll be happy to hear it's going away... check out the latest on my maven branch.
17:16	The-Kenny	technomancy: The best way (in my opinion) would be to just put the emacs-files together with the clojure-files somewhere, load the files in emacs and configure some of the variables (path to clojure.jar etc.)
17:16	javucci	The-Kenny, i use debian lenny and package-list-packages doesn't exists
17:16	The-Kenny	javucci? I think you want to talk to someone else here :)
17:17	javucci	how to make package-list-packages avaiable in emacs?
17:18	technomancy	javucci: http://tromey.com/elpa/install.html
17:19	javucci	thanks technomancy
17:25	patricius_	are there anyone here using VimClojure?
17:28	hiredman	I'm using the static part of vimclojure
17:28	patricius_	ok
17:28	patricius_	Well, for one thing, I can't get indenting to work
17:29	patricius_	it detects the filetype, but when I write "(defn function-name [] <ENTER>" it doesn't indent
17:30	patricius_	perhaps there is a more suitable channel for this? maybe a forum?
17:30	patricius_	couldn't find one tho
17:32	hiredman	patricius_: do you have all the thing it recommends setting?
17:32	hiredman	syntax on
17:32	hiredman	filetype plugin indent on
17:32	hiredman	from the README.txt
17:32	patricius_	let me double check
17:33	hiredman	I haven't actually messed with vimclojure since I installed whatever version I am using many months ago
17:36	patricius_	those options are set as suggested in README.txt. Syntax highlighting seems to work fine.
17:37	hiredman	shrug
17:37	hiredman	the author is in here from time to time
17:38	patricius_	darn it
17:38	hiredman	do you have any other indeinting options set?
17:38	patricius_	but do you use vim for your day to day clojure programming?
17:38	hiredman	yes
17:38	patricius_	I don't think I do
17:39	hiredman	for I think the gvim window on my netbook has tabs with clojure, c, sh, llvm ir, and maybe latex
17:40	hiredman	:P
17:40	patricius_	:)
17:40	patricius_	hiredman: you're thinking about 'lisp' and 'autoindent' options perhaps=
17:40	hiredman	patricius_: no idea
17:40	patricius_	:)
17:41	hiredman	I was just asking without thinking of anything specific
17:41	patricius_	thought so
17:41	patricius_	but as I said, I don't think I have any other options set... not from looking at my .vimrc and gvimrc
17:42	technomancy	hiredman: so when are we going to start up the Seattle Clojure group? =)
17:42	hiredman	patricius_: what does :set filetype say on a clojure file
17:42	patricius_	filetype=clojure
17:42	hiredman	technomancy: it's more of a duo with just the two of us
17:42	patricius_	hiredman: syntax hilighting works it seems
17:43	technomancy	yeah, "group" might be a bit of a stretch
17:43	technomancy	actually the clojure users' map lists two others
17:43	patricius_	i talked to two mormon girls from Seattle today... in Denmark (Northern Europe) - aren't you happy to know that?
17:44	hiredman	and what would we do? I could give a presentation on why "->" is awesome which will just be a bunch of confusing code wrapped in several layers of parens
17:44	technomancy	we could work on the Grande Unified Clojure Dependency Mechanism
17:45	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to fr: Grand Unified Clojure Dependency Mechanism
17:45	clojurebot	Grand Unified Clojure dépendance Mécanisme
17:45	hiredman	:/
17:45	technomancy	cd sa-safe
17:46	technomancy	bah; wrong window
17:46	rsynnott_	slightly less than impressive
17:46	rsynnott_	does its 'translate to french' function just entail adding random accents? :)
17:46	hiredman	rsynnott_: it uses google translate
17:46	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to de: Grand Unified Clojure Dependency Mechanism
17:46	clojurebot	Grand Unified Clojure Dependency Mechanismus
17:47	technomancy	rsynnott_: that would be random accents using Markov Chains, thankyouverymuch!
17:47	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to de: grand unified Clojure dependency mechanism
17:47	clojurebot	Grand Unified Clojure Abhängigkeit Mechanismus
17:47	hiredman	zounds
17:48	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to de: great unified Clojure dependency mechanism
17:48	clojurebot	großen einheitlichen Clojure Abhängigkeit Mechanismus
17:48	lpetit	translate from fr to en: bonne nuit
17:48	hiredman	GECAM
17:48	lpetit	:)
17:48	lpetit	whoops
17:48	lpetit	clojurebot: translate from fr to en: bonne nuit
17:48	clojurebot	to in: good night
17:48	rsynnott_	heheheh
17:49	hiredman	clojurebot: translate from de großen einheitlichen Clojure Abhängigkeit Mechanismus
17:49	clojurebot	large, single Clojure dependent mechanism
17:49	hiredman	nice
17:51	Chousuke	clojurebot: translate to fi: great unified Clojure dependency mechanism
17:51	clojurebot	suuri yhtenäinen Clojure riippuvuuden mekanismi
17:51	Chousuke	nice try :P
17:52	hiredman	clojurebot: translate from fi suuri yhtenäinen Clojure riippuvuuden mekanismi
17:52	clojurebot	high dependence on a single mechanism for Clojure
17:52	Chousuke	that's closer to "Large unified mechanism of Clojure addiction"
17:52	hiredman	Chousuke: haha
17:52	hiredman	perfect
17:52	hiredman	SYCRM
17:52	Chousuke	though even that is fairly liberal
17:54	hiredman	LUMOCA
17:54	hiredman	Large Unified Method Of Clojure Addiction
17:54	Chousuke	"unified dependency handling system" would be something like "Yhtenäinen riippuvuuksienhallintajärjestelmä" which Google translate will no doubt fail to translate because of the huge compound word :P
17:56	Chousuke	The method GT uses for translation doesn't map very well between English and Finnish :/
17:56	Chousuke	because it isn't capable of breaking compounds into their constituents
17:57	hiredman	ah
17:57	hiredman	the statistical translation bits
17:57	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to kr hello
17:57	hiredman	whoops
17:58	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to ko hello
17:58	clojurebot	안녕하세요
17:58	hiredman	nice, don't have the right fonts
17:58	Chousuke	I do, but I can't read korean ;/
17:58	hiredman	but pasted else where that looks about right
17:59	Chousuke	clojurebot: translate from ko: 요
17:59	clojurebot	John
17:59	Chousuke	??? :D
17:59	hiredman	weird
17:59	hiredman	more like Yo
17:59	hiredman	or Yoh
18:00	hiredman	korean as a bunch of dirrent yo sounds that I could never tell apart that are always transliterated slightly differently
18:00	hiredman	I mean, they all sounds like "yo" to me
18:01	Chousuke	I don't know much about Korean but I hear it's quite similar to Japanese, structurally at least.
18:01	spuz	clojurebot: translate from ko: 녕
18:01	clojurebot	Goodbye
18:02	spuz	heh, awesome, "Hello" has "Goodbye" encoded within it in Korean
18:02	Chousuke	I really got a good laugh out of the "John" :P
18:02	spuz	I can't even see these characters which makes it all the stranger
18:03	spuz	clojurebot: translate from ko: 하
18:03	clojurebot	Summer
18:03	hiredman	putty shows them as little boxes
18:03	spuz	clojurebot: translate from ko: 세
18:03	clojurebot	3
18:03	spuz	clojurebot: translate from ko: 요
18:03	clojurebot	John
18:04	spuz	wow, all that just to say Hello :)
18:04	Chousuke	well, korean writing is phonetic :P
18:04	hiredman	each of those boxes is actually comprised of multilple characters too
18:04	hiredman	some combination of consonant and vowel
18:04	Chousuke	you have goo in good morning too :)
18:07	Chousuke	the usual Japanese word of hello is interesting. It's actually an abbreviation of some sentence that probably was something like "Today is a good day" originally.
18:07	Chousuke	but it's been abbreviated to just "today (is)" and lives as its own word :P
18:09	Chousuke	I think it might be the only word that has a grammatical particle permanently affixed to it :/
18:18	cemerick	is anyone else getting this building the new branch: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V (PrettyWriter.clj:17)
18:18	hiredman	cemerick: typically it means you need to rebuild contrib
18:19	cemerick	hiredman: yeah, I'm clean-building it :-/
18:21	cemerick	hrm, maybe not. I've got this nifty rebuild-clojure target, but it doesn't specify clean + jar for the contrib subant, only jar.
18:22	cemerick	yeah, nevermind. Damn stupid operator error.
19:38	cemerick	oh, no, PersistentStructMap is final now :-/
19:39	rhickey	cemerick: you weren't deriving from a concrete class, were you?
19:40	cemerick	rhickey: I was for my über-struct macros.
19:40	rhickey	it needn't be final, just a remnant from some perf tweaks... hang on
19:41	cemerick	rhickey: I wouldn't bother...there's more to it than the final.
19:41	cemerick	There was also the constructor, and the makeNew (or whatever it was called) method that allowed for polymorphic assoc, etc.
19:41	rhickey	like what?
19:41	cemerick	constructors*
19:42	cemerick	I'm happy enough to rip out all of the über-struct garbage, and see what falls out. It'll make the porting process more interesting :-)
19:43	rhickey	cemerick: there was that stuff where?
19:44	rhickey	I don't think there are any external differences at all
19:44	rhickey	other than the final
19:45	rhickey	I just made it so the keyslots could be an arraymap
19:46	cemerick	there was the protected constructor PersistentStructMap(IPersistentMap meta, Def def, Object[] vals, IPersistentMap ext) and the protected PersistentStructMap makeNew(IPersistentMap meta, Def def, Object[] vals, IPersistentMap ext) method.
19:46	cemerick	oh, those are still there :-/
19:46	rhickey	right
19:46	cemerick	It's been a rough couple of days, sorry. :-(
19:47	cemerick	In that case, I'll just twiddle it to not be final.
19:47	cemerick	Pardon the interruption.
19:48	rhickey	it's fixed
19:49	rhickey	cemerick: the tweaks I made make a big perf difference - there's still more to do, but I imagine people will move to deftype
19:50	cemerick	rhickey: Thanks very much. I can totally understand you wanting to make it final, though.
19:51	cemerick	That's my second chicken-little-esque moment in an hour, which is a new personal record.
19:52	rhickey	no worries - did you try out deftype yet? It screams vs defstruct, 3x as fast as the improved defstruct version that's there in new
19:52	cemerick	rhickey: I'm in the process now :-)
19:53	rhickey	keyword call sites - (:field x) now same speed as (.field x) for deftype
19:53	blackdog_	i don't see a branch for deftype or is it right in git head?
19:53	cemerick	blackdog_: it's in the 'new' branch
19:54	blackdog_	ok, i need to visit github
19:54	blackdog_	ta
19:56	cemerick	rhickey: Not sure what you're seeing, but I think there's another tipping point falling. Lots of totally green folks in here lately, and I got my ear chewed off by two completely random programmers who aren't generally language enthusiasts over the weekend about how much they were enjoying using the language.
19:57	rhickey	yeah, it keeps growing
19:58	weissj	i'm doing euler probs in clojure right now. its fun
19:58	weissj	it's like i have a power tool in my hands that i know can do just about anything if i just figure out how to use it :)
20:04	churib	weissj: which problem do you currently work on?
20:04	weissj	churib: #14
20:05	churib	i am on #7
20:05	weissj	churib: cool, i just did that one last night, i can help you if you need it
20:05	churib	it really makes fun!
20:07	churib	i am currently trying to replace the multiplications by sums
20:08	weissj	churib: #7? find the 10001st prime?
20:08	churib	hm wait :)
20:08	churib	okay, i am #6
20:08	weissj	ah haven't tried that one
20:08	churib	but 7 is already solved :)
20:20	weissj	churib: can i see your solution for #7
20:22	srader	just tried out the new deftype :field perf improvement. Wow! Almost the same as .field now.
20:23	rhickey	srader: it is the same as field on my tests
20:23	rhickey	as .field
20:25	srader	I ran my tests individually now and get = perf. Not sure why when running as a batch they were slightly different.
20:25	rhickey	although every now and then hotspot does less with it than most other times
20:27	rhickey	srader: you have to make sure you are getting a non-polymorphic call path, the cache will only fully inline if the call path has only seen one type, once more than one type you get a slight reduction from then on
20:28	srader	ok, thanks
20:29	rhickey	i.e. if you have a fn that reads :a :b and :c of its args, and flow a ton of the same deftype through it, it will be fastest. Then send some structs or arraymaps with :a :b :c keys through the same fn, will be slower (as expected) but going back to the original deftypes will also be slower
20:30	hiredman	does hotspot ever re-inline?
20:30	rhickey	hiredman: I don't know why it couldn't, but I didn't see it
20:31	rhickey	but that's really a non-use-case of this, since .field isn't polymorphic ever
20:32	rhickey	so, in cases where you are defining methods of a protocol for some deftype Foo, that code will only ever see Foos
20:32	hiredman	uhhuh
21:00	weissj	can i get a hint how to convert '(\2 \1 \3) char seq into the number 213 ?
21:02	tomoj	,(Integer/parseInt (apply str '(\2 \1 \3)))
21:02	clojurebot	213
21:02	rlb	weissj: maybe not the best approach, but (Integer/praseInt (apply str x)) should work
21:02	rlb	s/praseInt/parseInt/
21:03	weissj	thx tomoj and rlb for your near simultaneous and identical solutions :)
21:03	rlb	I just assume there's some awesomely clever clojure solution I don't know about yet...
21:03	tomoj	read-string looks more clojure-ish but can be dangerous I think
21:04	tomoj	I mean if you don't have control over the chars coming in
21:04	weissj	tomoj - i do - i am trying to basically right-circular shift a number
21:05	weissj	ie 321 -> 132
21:06	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString)
21:06	clojurebot	"321"
21:07	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString cycle ((partial take 4)))
21:07	clojurebot	(\3 \2 \1 \3)
21:07	hiredman	rmmm
21:08	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString cycle ((partial repeate 2)) ((juxt first (comp reverse second))))
21:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: repeate in this context
21:08	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString cycle ((partial repeat 2)) ((juxt first (comp reverse second))))
21:08	hiredman	uh oh
21:08	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
21:09	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString ((partial repeat 2)) ((juxt first (comp reverse second))))
21:09	hiredman	hmmm
21:09	hiredman	,(repeat 2 "321")
21:09	hiredman	huh
21:11	tomoj	you killed him
21:11	hiredman	thats just odd
21:12	hiredman	user=> (repeat 2 "321")
21:12	hiredman	("321" "321")
21:14	hiredman	,(repeat 2 "321")
21:14	clojurebot	("321" "321")
21:14	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString ((partial repeat 2)))
21:14	clojurebot	("321" "321")
21:15	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString ((partial repeat 2)) ((juxt first (comp reverse second))))
21:15	clojurebot	["321" (\1 \2 \3)]
21:15	hiredman	,(-> 321 Integer/toString ((partial repeat 2)) ((juxt first (comp reverse second))) ((partial apply concat)))
21:15	clojurebot	(\3 \2 \1 \1 \2 \3)
21:16	hiredman	huh, thats not helping
21:16	dysinger	ls
21:16	dysinger	lol oops - emacs!
21:17	tomoj	,(+ (* (mod 321 10) (reduce * (take (dec (.length (str 321))) (repeat 10)))) (quot 321 10))
21:17	clojurebot	132
21:17	hiredman	((fn [x] (Integer/parseInt (apply str (last x) (butlast x)))) "321")
21:17	hiredman	,((fn [x] (Integer/parseInt (apply str (last x) (butlast x)))) "321")
21:17	clojurebot	132
21:18	tomoj	ooh nice
21:18	hiredman	hmmm
21:19	hiredman	,(+ 132 9)
21:19	clojurebot	141
22:14	tomoj	I'm considering writing macros that communicate with an external server when compiled
22:14	tomoj	is this evil
22:14	tomoj	..seems like it is probably evil
22:20	robink	Anyone know of a Gentoo ebuild for Compojure?
22:22	dysinger	http://build.clojure.org :)
22:23	danlarkin	tada!
22:24	rhickey	cool
22:28	dysinger	you can download the latest jar straight from the site
22:28	dysinger	or you can use it for a maven repo
22:29	dysinger	rhickey: sign up and I'll admin you
22:30	rhickey	I'm in
22:30	dysinger	your name ?
22:30	dysinger	rhickey ?
22:30	rhickey	richhickey
22:30	dysinger	1 sec
22:31	dysinger	done
22:32	rhickey	thanks
22:33	dysinger	you can add yourself to the build notifications at the bottom of the project "configure" screen
22:35	rhickey	will it build branches?
22:36	dysinger	I think so
22:36	dysinger	there's a spot to configure branches in there
22:36	dysinger	we'll have to fiddle with it
22:37	rhickey	found it
22:38	dysinger	do you want */new or just new ?
22:39	dysinger	I don't know - just curious
22:39	rhickey	got me
22:41	dysinger	oh when you save it changes new to */new
22:41	dysinger	I put lazy in there too just for kicks
22:41	rhickey	lazy is over
22:41	rhickey	only master, new and par are active
22:42	hiredman	:D
22:43	hiredman	my clojure hello world appengine app is up
22:43	hiredman	now to figure out the facebook api
22:44	dysinger	rhickey: http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure/13/ :)
22:45	dysinger	par didn't work http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure/14/console
22:45	rhickey	par needs support lib
22:46	rhickey	http://cloud.github.com/downloads/richhickey/clojure/jsr166y.jar
22:46	rhickey	and to be built for java 6
22:46	rhickey	so, I'm happy with master and new
22:47	dysinger	this is ubuntu karmic - I think it only has java6
22:48	rhickey	then it just may be matter of having jsr166y.jar next to clojure.jar
22:53	rhickey	and in classpath
22:54	dysinger	rhickey: current bug in hudson https://hudson.dev.java.net/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=4422
22:54	dysinger	we'll have to watch for that
22:54	dysinger	and not go crazy with branches right now
22:56	rhickey	new would be the only one I care about, as I'd like people to try it. It builds, tests, and builds contrib + tests before I check it in
22:57	dysinger	I fixed it - so it's new and master for now
22:57	rhickey	great
22:57	rhickey	I wish it showed the branch more prominently in the views
23:01	rhickey	Thanks again, I don't intend to muck with it
23:02	dysinger	heh
23:05	qed	how does clojure clean up old versions of persistent tree structures?
23:05	rhickey	qed: gc
23:08	qed	rhickey: im having a little trouble wrapping my mind around persistence and the idea of tries-- structural sharing and all of that
23:09	qed	it just seems sort of...well...impossible
23:09	qed	how does the garbage collector know when it can safely prune a version of the tree?
23:10	notallama	same way it knows when it can prune anything else
23:10	solussd	I want an infinite lazy seq of random ints, but this produces "less than random" looking ints: (iterate rand-int 100)
23:10	qed	how's that, notallama?
23:11	hiredman	new versions of the datastructure don't keep references to the entire previous version, just the parts that it needs
23:11	tomoj	solussd: think about what iterate does
23:11	solussd	,(take 10 (iterate rand-int 100))
23:11	clojurebot	(100 98 49 12 6 0 0 0 0 0)
23:11	notallama	when you make a 'change' to a tree, you're really making a new root, which is an almost-copy of the old root. one of the nodes is another new almost-copy, etc.
23:11	solussd	oh, i see tomoj
23:11	tomoj	you're getting s0=(rand-int 100), s1=(rand-int s0), s2=(rand-int s1),...
23:11	tomoj	what you want is probably (repeatedly #(rand-int 100))
23:12	solussd	thanks
23:12	tomoj	(actually s0=100, and then on from there)
23:12	notallama	and the garbage collector can walk from the roots of all the trees (which share nodes). anything that it can't reach can be freed. (it uses tricks so that it doesn't have to walk the trees all the time, though)
23:13	tomoj	I would like to know what the expected length of (take-while (complement zero?) (iterate rand-int n)) is, though
23:13	solussd	i like this: (take 50 (distinct (repeatedly #(rand-int 100)))) *being able to specify I want an infinite list of distinct items. :)
23:13	solussd	even though there are only 100
23:14	solussd	hangs ... forever?
23:14	solussd	,(take 101 (distinct (repeatedly #(rand-int 100))))
23:14	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
23:14	solussd	heh
23:25	tomoj	hmm, seems to be about log(x)+1.6 (if you count the first zero as well)
23:34	tomoj	the answer appears to be about log(n)+0.575
23:36	tomoj	oops, wrong channel
23:38	hiredman	http://mrepo.happyfern.com/sites/facebook-java-api/facebook-java-api/apidocs/index.html this is horrible
23:40	somnium	hiredman: it always helps when everything is piled into one package. have you graphed it?
23:40	tomoj	what pisses me off is that we can't send messages through the API
23:40	tomoj	only read them
23:42	hiredman	facebook seems to wnat to make it as hard as possible to write a facebook app in a language other than php
23:42	somnium	:)
23:47	hiredman	I'm still trying to figure out their login model
23:47	hiredman	or whatever it would be called
23:47	solussd	what's wrong with this? It's throwing an illegal argument exception: (take 10 (distinct (repeatedly #([(rand-int 100) (rand-int 100)]))))
23:48	tomoj	you can't put a vector like that in a #()
23:48	tomoj	you could use vector instead
23:48	solussd	I want 10 vectors of 2 random ints
23:49	tomoj	,(take 10 (distinct (repeatedly #(vector (rand-int 100) (rand-int 100)))))
23:49	clojurebot	([67 79] [85 41] [84 62] [54 26] [90 77] [68 27] [15 93] [14 5] [25 13] [30 33])
23:49	solussd	ah- i was trying to use vec, but that takes a coll
23:49	solussd	thanks
23:50	tomoj	it's because of what #() is
23:50	tomoj	what is it again?
23:50	solussd	macro?
23:50	tomoj	ah, yeah, #(foo) is (fn [] (foo))
23:51	tomoj	so #([foo]) is (fn [] ([foo])) which is wrong
23:51	tomoj	you could write (fn [] [foo]) as well
23:51	tomoj	or #(vector foo)
23:59	Puzzler	?
23:59	G0SUB	I am not sure if Tim Bray criticised or appreciated Clojure in his blog post http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/11/03/Clojure-N00b-Advice