#clojure – 2009-10-24

2009-10-24

00:21	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(lett [x 1 y 2] (+ x y)))
00:21	clojurebot	((clojure.core/fn [x] (sandbox/lett [y 2] (+ x y))) 1)
00:26	qed	how do you use clojure.contrib.combinatorics
00:27	qed	or any library
00:36	hiredman	(use 'clojure.contrib.combinatorics) will make everything available in the current ns
00:37	hiredman	(require 'clojure.contrib.combinatorics) will load the library, but you will need to prefix calls to fns from the library with the libraries namespace
00:37	hiredman	there are various variations on the two
00:38	qed	hiredman: should it return nil
00:41	hiredman	yep
00:42	hiredman	,(require '[clojure.zipper :as zip])
00:42	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/zipper__init.class or clojure/zipper.clj on classpath:
00:42	hiredman	,(require '[clojure.zippers :as zip])
00:42	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/zippers__init.class or clojure/zippers.clj on classpath:
00:42	hiredman	bah
00:42	hiredman	,(require '[clojure.zip :as zip])
00:42	clojurebot	nil
00:43	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b c (d e) f) g) zip/seq-zip)
00:43	clojurebot	[(a (b c (d e) f) g) nil]
00:43	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b c (d e) f) g) zip/seq-zip zip/next zip/next (zip/replace 'X))
00:43	clojurebot	[X {:changed? true, :l [a], :pnodes [(a (b c (d e) f) g)], :ppath nil, :r (g)}]
00:43	hiredman	,(-> '(a (b c (d e) f) g) zip/seq-zip zip/next zip/next (zip/replace 'X) zip/root)
00:43	clojurebot	(a X g)
00:51	qed	(phmmm
00:51	qed	i have (def nums (range 1 100))
00:52	qed	im trying to use (reduce fn (nums))
00:52	hiredman	nums is not a function
00:52	qed	oh duh
00:52	qed	hiredman: basically im trying to add the squares of 1 to 99
00:52	qed	1^2 + 2^2, etc
00:53	qed	whats a good way to do that
00:53	qed	could i be fancier in how i use (range 1 100)
00:55	hiredman	,(-> 1 (range 100) ((partial map (comp (partial apply *) (partial repeat 2)))) ((partial apply +)))
00:55	clojurebot	328350
00:56	hiredman	:P
00:56	qed	haha
00:56	qed	i dont understand your partial stuff
00:56	qed	but thanks for the code
00:56	hiredman	,(doc range)
00:56	clojurebot	"([end] [start end] [start end step]); Returns a lazy seq of nums from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive), by step, where start defaults to 0 and step to 1."
00:56	qed	ill study it
00:56	hiredman	partial is partial application
00:56	hiredman	,(partial + 1)
00:56	clojurebot	#<core$partial__4965$fn__4967 clojure.core$partial__4965$fn__4967@19a12cb>
00:56	hiredman	,((partial + 1) 1)
00:56	clojurebot	2
00:57	qed	ah ha
00:57	qed	thanks for your help man
00:57	qed	and congrats on solving the 3rd easiest problem on project euler in one line on irc in 5 minutes
00:57	hiredman	oh, well, I've eulered before
00:57	hiredman	but was before my -> addiction
00:58	qed	what is ->
00:58	hiredman	it's the thrush combinator
00:58	qed	wow that is awesome
00:59	hiredman	,(-> 1 inc inc)
00:59	clojurebot	3
00:59	hiredman	,(inc (inc 1))
00:59	clojurebot	3
00:59	qed	very cool
00:59	qed	thanks for the info
00:59	qed	back to euler :)
01:03	tomoj	dammit
01:03	tomoj	I can't start sbcl slime anymore because it automatically tries to require clojure.test
03:32	hiredman	ugh, syntaxquotereader is so gnarly looking
05:34	tomoj	ambient: are you the one doing sound stuff with clojure?
05:44	G0SUB	I think there is some problem with c.c.http-agent.
05:44	G0SUB	(http-agent "http://yahoo.com/" :handler (fn [a] (string a)))
05:45	G0SUB	why is this returning an agent error?
05:45	G0SUB	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: Can't await in agent action>
05:45	G0SUB	any ideas?
05:54	arsatiki	g0sub: don't use string (or bytes or stream) in the handler, since they all call result in the end
05:55	arsatiki	which calls await. and that raises the error
05:56	arsatiki	no wait
05:56	arsatiki	I was wrong
05:57	G0SUB	arsatiki: how does this work? http://freegeek.in/blog/2009/10/downloading-a-bunch-of-files-in-parallel-using-clojure-agents/
06:00	ttmrichter	It's too anxious for the agent to act? (Seriously: no idea. Just like the error message.)
06:05	arsatiki	it seems stream is fine, bytes and strings less so.
06:05	snowwhite07	Doesn't lazy-cons exists?
06:11	hoeck1	snowwhite07: lazy-cons was superseded by lazy-seq in the 1.0 release
06:11	snowwhite07	hoeck1, oh, thanks
07:19	adityo	how will i convert a stream to a string?
07:53	adityo	got it
09:09	tomoj	is it true that structmaps don't know what kind they are?
09:09	tomoj	or, that they can't tell me, I mean?
09:11	notallama	pretty sure it's just a hashmap, but with optimizations.
09:12	tomoj	looking at the source, it appears they know, but the field is not public and there's no accessor
09:12	tomoj	guess I should use :type metadata
09:16	tomoj	eh, clojure-json won't call the multimethod on structmaps anyway
09:19	notallama	clojure.lang.Script doesn't seem to print anything. (i have just a print statement in the script). any idea what's up with that/how to change it?
09:32	tomoj	notallama: try clojure.main
09:32	notallama	ok, found the problem. print doesn't automatically flush
09:33	tomoj	weird
09:34	tomoj	when running with clojure.main, it does, but not with clojure.lang.Script
09:44	tomoj	heh, I stared at "(= codepoint 0x7D) object ; }" for a minute confused by the unmatched "}" and wondering if ";" was some weird reader construct I hadn't seen before
09:44	tomoj	I need sleep :)
09:46	notallama	i was confused by it as well. :V that just made me realize how little i use comments.
09:47	notallama	i guess with docstrings, i don't need them much
09:47	tomoj	I think the spacing makes it more confusing too
09:48	tomoj	if it were "(= codepoint 0x7D) object ; }" I would've understood it immediately I bet
09:48	notallama	what changed?
09:49	tomoj	more space before the comment
09:49	tomoj	so that ; and } aren't spaced like forms usually are
09:50	notallama	ah. irc ate the extra space, i guess
09:50	tomoj	test (this is in the middle of lots of spaces) test
09:51	notallama	all single spaces there.
09:51	tomoj	weird
09:58	notallama	pointfree style is pretty fun. so i just made a bunch of functions to support it (i stole >>>, &&&, ***, \|\|\| and +++ from haskell, basically). perhaps this is a project for github/contrib if people like it.
09:59	rhickey	notallama: got some sample code using it?
10:02	rhickey	hmmm... could support dynamic defclass where class visibility was limited to the same file
11:02	hvesalai	just coded my first line of clojure
11:02	durka42	welcome!
11:02	hvesalai	is (Integer/parseInt s) an idiomatic way to turn string into number?
11:03	durka42	probably
11:03	hvesalai	or is there something in clojure API for the same task?
11:03	chouser	hvesalai: yep
11:03	chouser	nope
11:03	hvesalai	ok
11:04	hvesalai	is it so that I have to code clojure "bottom up" i.e. define functions before I can use them in the definitions of an other function
11:04	hvesalai	i.e. i cannot say (defn b [x] (a x)) (defn a [y] (+ y 1))
11:05	rhickey	hvesalai: you can use declare to make names available before definition
11:05	durka42	yes, except for declare and letfn
11:05	hvesalai	ok
11:05	rhickey	chouser: did you see: rhickey: hmmm... could support dynamic defclass where class visibility was limited to the same file
11:06	chouser	rhickey: no! reading logs now...
11:06	rhickey	i wonder about the utility, in the new branch I just made it so all code loaded in same file shares a classloader
11:07	rhickey	so a defclass could install the class in the dynamic classloader loading the file, where it could be found by subsequent calls to new and .field etc
11:07	chouser	instead of one classloader per ... what, top-level form? per "load" call?
11:07	rhickey	however, partial recompilation (select block, eval) as is common in interactive dev, wouldn't work well
11:07	rhickey	per load call
11:08	rhickey	not important to expose now, I needed it for deftype
11:09	chouser	REPL classloader would be unable to see the defclass's dynamically loaded via a 'load' or 'require'?
11:09	rhickey	chouser: right
11:10	chouser	that sounds ... well, really confusing. :-)
11:10	chouser	worse than rootloader
11:11	rhickey	yeah, probably no need given fully dynamic deftype
11:11	rhickey	I'm pulling apart reify now...
11:11	rhickey	deftype will be defined in terms of defclass
11:12	chouser	let us know when you're ready for help with hashcode, equals, etc.
11:12	rhickey	chouser: will do, thanks
11:13	rhickey	one more issue was the fact that when using deftype, you;ll need a factory function that can set all of the fields, including meta and extmap, else you can;t really write functions that construct new instances
11:13	chouser	I'm hopeful it will be done (enough) in time to cover it in the book.
11:14	rhickey	I hope to get through the bulk of it today, with the same limits currently for reify (type of this, covariant return bridges not emitted)
11:15	chouser	are bridge methods too hairy for others to help out? proxy does them already, doesn't it?
11:16	rhickey	so, the type factory fn might look like this: (fn ([the fields you supplied] ...) ([the fields you supplied meta extmap] ...))
11:16	rhickey	chouser: unfortunately I copied gen-class and not proxy when I did reify :(
11:16	rhickey	but yes, the logic is in proxy
11:17	rhickey	right now I just want to simplify as much as possible, getting rid of complexity relating to concrete supers
11:17	rhickey	(which is not much, as I didn't support ctors with args/protected/supercalls yet anyway)
11:19	rhickey	also I want to make it so the bulk of the generated impls (hashCode, equals, meta, type, etc) are done not by direct ASM emit, but by Java code emitting forms subject to normal compilation
11:22	rhickey	so I'm concerned about the second form of the factory fn above
11:23	chouser	it doesn't look very scary to me -- so obviously I don't understand sufficiently. :-)
11:24	rhickey	something like that is needed so you can write fns that create complete values, but I wonder if people will constantly have to wrap it in order to get what they have with struct-map
11:25	rhickey	are people often creating structs with struct-map, i.e. with extra/partial field sets?
11:26	chouser	auto imeta impl will mean with-meta will Just Work, right?
11:26	chouser	and similar for assoc/dissoc?
11:26	rhickey	ith-meta is IObj
11:26	rhickey	with-meta
11:27	rhickey	IMeta is just meta
11:27	rhickey	ILookup gives you get
11:27	chouser	ok. you weren't planning on providing easy support for with-meta?
11:28	hvesalai	so can I convert strings into keywords (for adding keyword,value pairs into a map)
11:28	rhickey	and Associative assoc
11:28	rhickey	chouser: yes, with-meta via IObj
11:28	chouser	hvesalai: you can use strings as keys in maps, but you can use the fn 'keyword' if you want to convert.
11:28	chouser	,(keyword "foo")
11:29	hvesalai	thanks
11:29	chouser	rhickey: so the extra ctor has to be there to support Associative and IObj methods. What wrapping would users feel they need beyond those?
11:30	rhickey	chouser: well, and protocol that was like that, i.e. that required you to create a new 'modified' value, would require you to copy all fields
11:30	rhickey	any protocol
11:30	hvesalai	is anybody using the counterclockwise eclipse plugin to generate java classes?
11:31	hvesalai	I didn't find any way to make the classes appear in the classes directory other than running (compile 'mynamespace) in REPL
11:31	hvesalai	is there a way to make ecplise do that for me automatically?
11:34	rhickey	chouser: think of using deftype to define PersistentMap where IPersistentMap was a protocol, you wouldn't have the auto-generated Associative, but you'd need to define fns that created new instances from old, propagating all stuff. In Clojure impl that stuff was usually just meta
11:35	rhickey	and meta went first
11:35	rhickey	[meta the fields you supplied]
11:37	rhickey	expando complicates things, but without being built in it would mean every impl having to do the lookup work
11:42	chouser	that does complicate things when they are trying to implement IPersistentMap themselves.
11:42	chouser	without closures you can't really share utility methods, can you.
11:43	rhickey	chouser: if the implement IPersistentMap/Assoc/ILookup they don't get expando or impls of those
11:44	rhickey	chouser: the thing is the lookup will be custom compiled per class, thus really fast, so not generic code that can be reused
11:44	rhickey	I want lookup to be much faster than structs right now
11:45	rhickey	right now - lookup index in map of key->index, then lookup field val in array at index
11:45	rhickey	types/classes: generate a switch statement based on key hashes
11:46	rhickey	inline code returns .field
11:47	rhickey	find perfect hash and pack for tableswitch
11:47	rhickey	in any case, custom code per type/class
11:53	mgarriss	Write a function foo that takes a number n and returns a function that takes a number i, and returns n incremented by i. (i.e. an accumulator generator)
11:54	mgarriss	in javascript: function foo (n) { return function (i) { return n += i } }
11:54	mgarriss	trying to figure out how to do it in clojure
11:55	mgarriss	in ruby: def foo (n) lambda {\|i\| n += i } end
11:55	chouser	right, custom code, but possibly via macro instead of asm (assuming tableswitch can be exposed sanely I suppose?)
11:56	rhickey	chouser: not a macro until cinc
11:57	chouser	mgarriss: both your examples mutate a local -- clojure locals are immutable
11:58	rhickey	almost of of the versions here: http://www.paulgraham.com/accgen.html are broken in the face of concurrency
11:58	chouser	mgarriss: so instead you'll want to choose a Clojure reference type, probably an atom
11:58	rhickey	and the whole premise in unsoundly stated - " returns n incremented by i"
11:59	rhickey	but as chouser says, you can make a threadsafe version in Clojure with atom
12:00	rhickey	if n is a number it can't be incremented as distinct from plus. One can't increment 42 in the sense he states, so there's a presumption of holes in environments etc
12:01	rhickey	Like the Erlang/Haskell/Mozart examples there, Clojure correctly requires you put the state in an explicit container
12:03	rhickey	since holes in environments are usually bereft of concurrency semantics
12:03	tomoj	(defn accumulator [n] (let [acc (atom n)] (fn [i] (swap! acc + i)))) ?
12:04	rhickey	tomoj: right
12:04	mgarriss	tomoj: that works
12:04	rhickey	and of the concurrency correct versions, the shortest and simplest
12:06	tomoj	clojure makes me happy
12:06	solussd	,(str "[" (apply str (interpose "] [" (range 10)) "]"))
12:07	mgarriss	i've never used atom or swap! before
12:08	mgarriss	rhickey and chouser: i'm still having problems thinking in a immutable way, thanks for the pointers
12:08	tomoj	maybe you mean (str "[" (apply str (interpose "] [" (range 10))) "]") ?
12:10	rhickey	and in a golf match for brevity with the other versions there: (defn foo [n] (let [a (atom n)] #(swap! a + %)))
12:10	mgarriss	ok, an algorithm problem: can i write a function that returns the intersection of two collections that is better than O(n^2) ?
12:11	tomoj	certainly
12:12	tomoj	maybe I'm just hallucinating from sleep-deprivation, but I can't even imagine an O(n^2) algorithm
12:13	tomoj	the naive solution, I think, is O(n)
12:13	mgarriss	what would that be?
12:14	mgarriss	in pseudo-code is fine
12:14	tomoj	oh, I see what you mean I think
12:14	solussd	i cant think of one that is O(n). :)
12:14	tomoj	if it takes O(n) to see if something's inside, then it's O(n^2) I guess
12:15	tomoj	you could get best-case O(n log n) by sorting first I suppose
12:15	mgarriss	i'm thinking about creating a hash with the second coll and using that to compare against, not that's better
12:15	mgarriss	*not sure that's
12:16	tomoj	probably a set would be better
12:16	tomoj	ah yes, you can make a set out of one of them, which has (I think?) constant time lookup, then run down the other for O(n)
12:16	spuz	mgarriss: Clojure already has such a function: http://clojure.org/api#toc659
12:16	mgarriss	sorting is not an option, the collection it heterogeneous
12:17	tomoj	you can certainly make a set, though
12:18	mgarriss	spuz: this is a question i got passed on in an interview, i want to know the algorithm used
12:18	mgarriss	-got
12:19	spuz	heh ok
12:19	tomoj	hmm
12:20	spuz	I imagine if the set lookup is O(1), then intersection is O(n)...
12:20	tomoj	clojure.set/intersection seems worse than linear
12:23	solussd	the naive implementation is an order of magnitude faster than clojure.set/intersection: (defn intersection [a b] (filter #(contains? a %) b))
12:23	tomoj	why is clojure.set/intersection slow?
12:27	tomoj	oh, I think I might see why
12:28	solussd	?
12:29	tomoj	well, I'm not really sure, but it looks like what it's doing is looping through the longer set and for each item, checking whether it is in the second, and if not, disj'ing it from the accumulator
12:29	tomoj	maybe disj is worse than constant time?
12:31	mgarriss	the hash idea in ruby: def intersection(a, b) h = a.inject({}){\|m,e\| m[e] = true; m}; b.delete_if{\|e\| !h[e]} end
12:31	mgarriss	that's better then n^2 i htink
12:31	tomoj	that's pretty much what set/intersection does
12:31	tomoj	if I understand it right
12:32	mgarriss	make a hash like hash[key] = true for the one coll, then use that to compare against the second
12:33	mgarriss	i can't figure out the big O level of it however, it's been too long since i was in school
12:33	mgarriss	is it 2n ?
12:33	mgarriss	creating the hash is n
12:34	chouser	clojure.set/intersection returns a set -- solussd's naive implementation returns a seq
12:34	Chousuke	why would you need a separate hash? /:
12:35	mgarriss	Chousuke: i don't know how else to do it
12:35	Chousuke	the fastest interjection would be (into #{} (filter shorter-seq larger-seq))
12:36	Chousuke	et
12:36	Chousuke	shorter-set of course
12:36	solussd	yep.. returning a set definitely would make the time difference. :)
12:37	Chousuke	though I suppose that would fail if there are nils or falses in the set :)
12:37	tomoj	but making a set should only be roughly O(n), yes?
12:38	solussd	yes
12:39	Chousuke	yeah. intersection should be O(n)*lookup
12:40	tomoj	I'm trying to graph my results of set/intersection to see better if it's really more than O(n)
12:40	Chousuke	~def intersection
12:40	Chousuke	oh shoot
12:44	tomoj	I think it is actually linear
12:49	spuz	is it possible to use 'loop' to make an infinite sequence?
12:52	ambient	this interests me too
12:53	ambient	(defn foo[] (lazy-seq (loop [n 0] (recur (inc n))))) don't seem to work
12:55	tomoj	(loop [] (iterate inc 0)) :P
12:55	ambient	which does not use loop/recur :/
12:55	tomoj	I can't imagine how or why you'd use loop for an infinite seq
12:56	tomoj	except if calculating the values requires looping
12:56	spuz	hmm
12:57	tomoj	oh, I see
12:57	tomoj	well
12:57	tomoj	(defn foo [] (loop [n 0] (lazy-seq (cons n (recur (inc n))))))
12:57	tomoj	but you can't do that
12:57	tomoj	because you can only recur from tail position
12:58	tomoj	lazy-seqs make loop unneeded
12:58	tomoj	you can just call the function and the stack won't blow
13:00	lisppaste8	spuz pasted "Inifnite mandelbrot set" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89213
13:01	tomoj	(defn foo [] ((fn rec [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (rec (inc i))))) 0))
13:01	spuz	Well, I'm trying to optimize that function, while keeping it lazy
13:02	spuz	if say I call (nth (mandelset -0.123 -0.234) 100000) I believe the multiple function calls and maps are slowing it down
13:02	chouser	lazy seqs can't be made of primitives, nor can you avoid allocating memory as the seq is walked.
13:03	chouser	you can however use chunked seqs which reduces the number of allocations per item.
13:04	tomoj	iterate doesn't chunk?
13:05	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "reify/deftype syntax unification" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89214
13:06	rhickey	the macro-izable versions are pretty verbose
13:06	rhickey	plus I really like implicit this
13:07	rhickey	defclass same as deftype
13:10	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #89214 "another reify possibility" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89214#1
13:13	rhickey	I guess it's a wash for simplest things:
13:13	rhickey	(proxy [ActionListener] [] (actionPerformed [evt] ...))
13:13	rhickey	(reify [ActionListener (actionPerformed [evt] ...)])
13:14	chouser	hm, so listing the interfaces separately from the methods complicates providing macros that do both for you
13:14	rhickey	chouser: I think so, also methods in blocks vs a la carte
13:15	rhickey	else you'd need to, e.g., unroll do in macroexpansions that emit multiple methods
13:16	rhickey	the whole macros for methods is a bit speculative right now
13:16	rhickey	it's certainly more declarative to have the interfaces listed together
13:17	div`	when doing methods in an interface block, isn't it more confusing when 2 or more interfaces have a common method
13:17	rhickey	div`: yes, that's a potential issue
13:18	rhickey	can't really do validation per block due to potential overlap
13:18	div`	my gut feel is to prefer interfaces grouped together
13:18	div`	but that may be because of the java background too :)
13:18	rhickey	but if you wanted to use macro to generate overlapping method sets you simply couldn't, not a big limitation IMO
13:19	div`	not a limitation, but may be confusing to a reader
13:20	rhickey	another possibility is to go proxy-style and use some sort of escape (~ ?) to trigger macroexpansion
13:21	div`	wooosh :<
13:22	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #89214 "reify proxy-ish with macro escape" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89214#2
13:22	lisppaste8	spuz annotated #89213 "Implementation using loops but no infinite sequences" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89213#1
13:23	spuz	tomoj: that implementation is about 5 times faster but it will only ever calculate values up to max-iters
13:23	tomoj	well, that's what you're probably doing for mandelbrot anyway, huh? :)
13:23	spuz	so, ideally, I'd want the best of both but I have no idea how to turn this looping version into an infinite version
13:24	spuz	tomoj: yes exactly, but just from a functional point of view I'm wondering what the best way to do it is
13:26	div`	rhickey: that looks nice. Would be very handy to abstract away a generic implementation in a macro like that
13:26	div`	without having to sacrifice an extends
13:41	toups	What is the idiomatic way to represent a homogeneous vector in clojure such that the compiler can optimize it?
13:41	toups	I can see that you can type annotate arguments to functions
13:41	toups	But what if the argument is a vector of doubles?
13:41	toups	Should I just use a java array?
13:42	rhickey	toups: there aren't specializations of, e.g. vectors, for primitives yet
13:44	toups	So would it be reasonable to expect a java array to provide better performance?
13:46	rhickey	for many things yes, but you can't add to the end of an array, and they are not threadsafe under mutation
13:47	toups	That isn't an issue for this problem.
13:47	toups	So I should be ok
13:47	toups	Really, I am prematurely optimizing.
13:47	toups	Performance is really not crucial at this point.
13:48	toups	But I am just considering future possibilities.
13:53	ambient	i tried using both infinite lazy-seqs and atoms in my program, but array beat them both by a factor of 100
13:55	toups	How do I type hint, for instance, an array of doubles?
13:55	ambient	#^doubles
13:56	toups	My
13:56	toups	That is nice
13:56	toups	Thanks
13:57	ambient	you might find this useful: http://bitbucket.org/amb/clojure-snippets/src/tip/src/amb/synth.clj
14:00	ambient	it's currently unfortunately unreadable :(
14:00	ambient	i don't know how to make array code more immediately apparent
14:00	ambient	c-like structures might be useful
14:01	ambient	perhaps there is a way to build light-weight java classes. but that seems very un-clojur-ish to me
14:03	ambient	the whole mutable arrays concept, accessing values by index, almost looks like anathema, but it's way faster than anything else as far as I can tell, because every variable in my program needs to be modifiable in runtime, anytime, anywhere, anyhow
14:07	rlb	Is there a clever idomatic clojure way to create a map with optional elements, i.e. elements that should only be in the map if some test is true?
14:08	rlb	(per-element)
14:13	kunley	Hi folks.
14:15	chouser	rlb: the best I've seen so far is (-> {} (conj (when foo [:k1 v1])) (conj (when foo2 [:k2 v2])))
14:15	rlb	chouser: OK, thanks -- I was just playing with (-> (hash-map required-bits) ...)
14:16	chouser	ambient: light-weight java classes is a reasonable way to describe what rhickey is desiging as we speak.
14:17	ambient	cool :)
14:17	toups	I find myself "map" ing and then immediately forcing the result into a vector.
14:18	qed	Why doesn't clojure-mode auto-indent?
14:18	toups	Is there a built-in function that allocates the output of map right into a vector?
14:18	ambient	qed you tried pressing tab?
14:18	ambient	there was a way to make it auto-auto-indent but can't recall :(
14:20	qed	ambient: im sure tab works
14:20	qed	but yeah i wanted it to do fancy auto-auto
14:20	qed	it used to do it
14:20	qed	not sure why it doesnt now :\
14:21	chouser	huh. 'vec' uses neither chunks nor transients?
14:22	toups	chouser: I am not sure I understand your question.
14:22	toups	Correct me if I am wrong, but map returns a seq
14:22	toups	?
14:23	toups	Is there a map-alike that returns a vec without the laziness or conversion steps that (vec (map ...)) would have?
14:23	toups	Doesn't matter, really
14:23	toups	I am writing it now
14:23	chouser	yes, map returns either a chunked or regular seq
14:25	chouser	oh, it does use transients.
14:26	toups	chouser: does the use of transients effect the present situation?
14:26	chouser	so, if you map over a chunked seq and use 'vec' to put the results into a vector, that will almost certainly run faster than doing a non-chunked map into a non-transient vector.
14:26	toups	chouser: still seems like it would be less efficient than just writing a special version would put the output directly into a vector, no laziness.
14:27	toups	chouser: that seems counter-intuitive
14:27	chouser	toups: feel free to try it and let us know how it goes.
14:27	toups	Is there someplace I can read about transients and mapping to get a sense for their performance profiles?
14:28	ambient	efficiency and dynamicity are often at odds with each other
14:28	qed	am i the only one in here who can't quit telling their CS friends to learn clojure because it makes all other languages look like worthless sh*t
14:28	qed	or is that common?
14:28	toups	I think Haskell and Clojure are pretty neck and neck.
14:29	toups	Very arguably, Haskell is more elegant, even if it is harder to wrap one's head around.
14:29	Chousuke	maybe it's counterintuitive because map and vec optimise things behind the scenes
14:29	chouser	what is Haskell's library story?
14:29	ambient	i wouldn't recommend clojure for anybody just yet, only for the hardcore enthusiast.
14:30	qed	Haskell is great and all
14:30	qed	but the whole monad thing sort of sucks
14:30	qed	if I wanna do I/O in clojure, I can, without all of the extra garbage that goes on in Haskell
14:31	qed	there are some weird edge cases where monads become a huge headache IIRC
14:31	Chousuke	monads are a neat construct though.
14:31	chouser	toups: if you write a fn that takes only Indexed collections and produces a vector via transients, you might be able to beat the speed of (vec (map ...)) by a bit.
14:31	Chousuke	being forced to use them isn't so cool :/
14:31	qed	yeah, neat construct, but pretty constrictive
14:31	qed	exactly Chousuke
14:32	qed	im the programmer -- i dont need a forcing me to do my job in a certain way
14:32	qed	language forcing*
14:32	chouser	ambient: what would clojure need for you to start recommending it?
14:32	Chousuke	one thing I don't like about haskell is the large number of almost identical functions
14:32	qed	yeah that is a little annoying, i agree
14:33	qed	i havent sspent a ton of time on haskell, so i cant really speak with much authority on that
14:33	Chousuke	you have foldl, foldl', zip, zip2, zip3, mapM, mapM_... icky :/
14:33	toups	Yeah
14:33	qed	yikes
14:33	toups	Strong typing I guess.
14:33	ambient	chouser robustness, documentation, trial by fire etc... i just don't trust _any_ new technology by default for production use
14:34	qed	ambient: i know people like you
14:34	qed	:)
14:34	solussd	ambient: do you trust java?
14:34	qed	im the opposite (depending on what kind of stuff you're doing in "production", though)
14:34	qed	i say use what works
14:34	qed	new or old
14:35	chouser	ambient: ok, thanks.
14:35	ambient	chouser anyway, it's a hard question. mainly just FUD
14:35	ambient	clojure hasn't done enough to assure me
14:35	qed	what if chouser holds your hand? :)
14:38	chouser	ambient: that's fine -- just curious what Clojure needed to close the deal with you. Sounds like docs and time. Both are being worked on. :-)
14:45	AWizzArd	http://www.roberthalftechnology.com/SearchJobs?5_jobSearch.request_type=ViewJobDetail&5_jobSearch.job_number=41891821&5_jobSearch.single_job=true&specificJob=41891821
14:52	ambient	i don't disagree that clojure looks like the best thing since sliced bread. it's just very "raw"
14:52	qed	i think that's how lisp has always been
14:53	qed	raw is what makes it so flexible
14:53	ambient	raw as in very limited set of tools
14:53	qed	see i just disagree with that because Java kind of renders that argument null
14:54	ambient	in theory it does. but the java interop is not without its problems
14:54	ambient	i digress, i should write more code, talk less :)
14:57	qed	hehe
14:58	qed	im using it to do the euler project right now
14:58	qed	it's going pretty well
14:58	qed	ive finished most of the first page with clojure
14:58	Chousuke	I doubt anyone would disagree that Clojure is still rough around the edges. :P
15:02	somnium	are there any test-coverage tools for java that can analyze the .class files that clojure outputs?
15:02	tomoj	that's a good question
15:04	somnium	after a week of hacking in the repl I have a usable library but about 6 assertions :( (all the functions worked at repl, I swear)
15:54	toups	What is up with not being able to use -'s in clojure filenames
15:55	toups	I know it is trivial, but it sort of grinds my gears.
15:55	Chousuke	JVM limitation
15:55	qed	it's a "c'mon son!" moment
15:55	dreish	I'm not a fan either, but at least it isn't rhickey's fault.
15:56	Chousuke	I think it could be worked around but it's more work than it's worth I guess :P
15:56	dreish	Underscores are teh s uck.
15:56	toups	Is there any convention?
15:56	toups	Like do people just avoid using names that have dashes, or do they just use underscores in the filename and dashes in clojure?
15:56	toups	Or do we use just underscores everyone in library names?
15:56	Chousuke	you need to name your files using underscores instead.
15:56	toups	Or is it a big mess.
15:57	Chousuke	no, all clojure-facing names have normal dashes.
15:57	Chousuke	just the filenames get underscore treatment
15:57	dreish	(use 'my-lib) => my_lib.clj
15:57	chouser	the filenames use underscores so that they can be valid Java package and classnames.
15:58	toups	Thanks
16:15	qed	how would i turn a large number into a sequence of digits?
16:15	ambient	,(str (int 101010))
16:15	ambient	hmm no clojurebot? :(
16:16	ambient	well at least for me the class that the aforewritten piece outputs is java.class.String
16:16	qed	looks like i doesnt
16:16	qed	ambient: thanks
16:16	qed	that's really awesome, i guessed it would be harder
16:17	ambient	you can loose the int part
16:17	ambient	if you already know your type
16:17	chouser	lose
16:18	ambient	thank you, language police
16:18	chouser	sorry
16:18	qed	hmm why doesnt: user> (reduce + (seq (str (factorial 100))))
16:18	qed	work?
16:19	chouser	qed: + is for numbers not Characters
16:19	qed	ah, hmm
16:19	ambient	(map int your-seq) i'd think
16:20	ambient	if you want to sum the ascii codes
16:20	qed	i want to sum the digits of 100!
16:26	chouser	you want to do it via strings and characters, or via math (dividing by 10s)?
16:26	qed	either way is fine
16:27	chouser	qed: you know about the project euler clojure wiki?
16:27	qed	yeah im not trying to cheat just yet
16:27	qed	if you can give me a hint on a function to use
16:27	chouser	good. :-)
16:27	qed	to turn my seq of chars back into ints
16:27	qed	that'd be cool
16:27	chouser	int
16:27	qed	k thanks :)
16:27	chouser	(int \0) ==> 48
16:28	chouser	qed: which problem number is this?
16:28	qed	it's so early on im going to embaress myself
16:28	qed	i think it's like #20
16:29	qed	yeah #20
16:29	chouser	hm, never did 20 in clojure.
16:29	qed	i need to get \9 to be 9
16:29	qed	not 57
16:29	qed	i was gonna do (reduce + (seq (str (factorial 100))))
16:29	chouser	I've a gap between 14 and 24 where I only used scala
16:29	qed	something like that
16:30	chouser	(- 57 48) ==> 9
16:30	qed	ahhhhh, yes
16:31	somnium	is it worth going through all the problems in clojure? I did the first 10 or so until I started getting comfortable, then I got programming clojure and just started hacking.
16:32	chouser	I didn't lose interest until around 50, though I've done a few others above that.
16:33	chouser	though I didn't switch from scala to clojure until around 30, and went back and did the first few over again in Clojure later.
16:36	somnium	Can you recommend any good sources for pattern matching in clojure? I watched most SICP, but I don't think I quite got it.
16:37	tomoj	there's pattern matching?
16:37	ambient	this is what i came up: (reduce + (map #(mod % 10) (take-while #(>= % 1) (iterate #(int (/ % 10)) 123456789))))
16:38	somnium	in SICP they implement pattern matching in scheme, its not built in
16:38	tomoj	ah I see
16:43	qed	how do i do something like: (map (- 48) sequence-of-ints)
16:43	dreish	(map #(- % 48) ...)
16:44	dreish	Or if you want to be flashy, (map (partial + -48) ...)
16:44	somnium	lol
16:45	tomoj	hmm
16:45	tomoj	why + -48 instead of - 48?
16:45	somnium	im not sure if that qualifies as flashy or something else
16:45	dreish	Wrong argument order.
16:45	tomoj	oh, yeah
16:45	dreish	somnium: Tell that to the Haskell people.
16:45	tomoj	(-48) :(
16:46	qed	oh right, a little lambda
16:46	qed	im so used to having lambdas hidden from me
16:46	tomoj	guess it would have to be (- 48) eh
16:46	somnium	I've been putting off learn Haskell because I'm afraid I won't be able to enjoy monad tutorials anymore
16:46	tomoj	I'm learning haskell because the monad tutorials make no sense to me
16:47	qed	haha
16:47	Chousuke	I need to reread monad tutorials periodically to refresh my enlightenment.
16:48	qed	that's a running joke in #haskell
16:48	qed	how many monad tutorials do you need to read to understand it
16:48	Chousuke	I think I kind of get gist of monads but I still wouldn't be able to use them effectively :P
16:48	qed	yeah same here
16:48	dreish	How many monad tutorials does it take to screw in a light bulb?
16:48	qed	i dont know, how mnay?
16:48	qed	many*
16:48	dreish	I don't know. That was the punchline.
16:49	qed	oh i thought youd have some slick haskell code
16:49	qed	:)
16:49	Chousuke	dreish: well, seeing how screwing the light bulb is quite side-effecty, I'd guess at least a dozen
16:49	dreish	Trying to do some simple state change, like screwing in a light bulb, spending two weekends in a row staring at monad tutorials ...
16:49	qed	yeah, a light bulb into a socket, sounds like IO to me
16:50	ambient	(swap! old-bulb new-bulb) :p
16:50	dreish	I think it would be (swap! bulb change-bulb)
16:51	dreish	Or (reset! old-bulb new-bulb).
16:52	somnium	I think new-bulb was a variadic function that spontaneously creates a new light-bulb
16:52	dreish	I guess that works.
16:53	qed	what does % do in #(- % 48)
16:53	ambient	(fn [x] (- x 48))
16:53	dreish	It's the argument to the lambda.
16:54	qed	ahhhh thanks dreish
16:54	qed	its a special variable then?
16:55	somnium	# <- is a reader macro
16:55	dreish	It's technically reader syntax.
16:55	dreish	Try '#(+ % %)
16:55	ambient	you can also use %1 %2 %3 etc
16:56	ambient	(fn [x y z] (+ x y z)) => #(+ %1 %2 %3)
16:56	dreish	Don't forget %&
16:56	ambient	what does that do?
16:56	somnium	then it really starts to look like perl
16:56	danlei	((fn [%] %) 1) is almost the same as (#(%) 1), but the latter won't work
16:57	dreish	'#(list %& %) => (fn* [p1__1852 & rest__1851] (list rest__1851 p1__1852))
16:58	somnium	,(#(%) #(+ 2 3))
16:58	somnium	hmm, he must be off today...
16:58	dreish	Now you're thinking with lambdas.
16:59	qed	ahhhh
16:59	qed	thanks
17:01	somnium	I have this library, maybe 200 - 300 lines, and this feeling it could be one function, that takes one value and 20 keywords, and does (apply comp .....)
17:02	somnium	I need to reread SICP
17:03	qed	SICP is sort of dated IMO
17:03	qed	i know that's heresy
17:03	qed	:X
17:04	lpetit	hvesalai: still struggling with counterclockwise to have your classes compiled automatically ?
17:06	somnium	some of it, like environment and objects, is almost ridiculous nowadays, but the functional parts are still mind-expanding for me
17:24	toups	PS - the best way to get monads is to implement them in your favorite language.
17:24	toups	http://github.com/VincentToups/emacs-utils
17:25	toups	This may be of interest to clojure users
17:25	toups	It is an implementation of clojure style destructuring binds for function definitions and let forms for emacs lisp.
17:25	toups	Also included is a simple implementation of monads ala the clojure-contrib library.
17:26	toups	I wrote it because I didn't want to re-implement common-lisp style destructuring just to get lexical functions, and the destructuring syntax in clojure is simpler.
17:27	toups	But it also provides non-lexical versions of defn and let.
17:41	Kjellski	Good evening..
17:41	Kjellski	=)
17:43	AWizzArd	Na Kjell, alles klar?
17:46	Kjellski	Hö? Jow bei mir is alles klar... woher kenne ich Dich?
17:46	Kjellski	^^
17:51	Kjellski	Sorry for german... but that´s confusing, do I know you?
17:55	Kjellski	We´ve got it private, nevermind...
18:00	danlei	Wie klein die Welt doch manchmal ist ;)
18:00	Kjellski	Wieso?
18:01	danlei	Ah, dachte ihr hättet euch grad zufällig getroffen ...
18:02	Kjellski	Kannten uns nicht, aber er hat an meinem ".de" Login erkannt das ich wohl auch aus Deutschland komme und mal Nabernd gesagt ^^
18:03	danlei	achso .)
18:04	Kjellski	lach den Smiley merk ich mir .)
18:16	qed	so in clojure a conj adds to the end when appropriate
18:17	qed	and a cons always adds to the ead
18:17	qed	head*
18:17	qed	?
18:17	qed	the way it says conj adds to different "places" as appropriate is a tad confusing
18:17	qed	if i conj onto a set, it wont go to the end or the beginning, right?
18:17	qed	well, it could, but not every time
18:18	rhickey	conj adds to a collection. hash sets don't have places
18:21	qed	rhickey: thanks -- im new to the cons cell, but i can see now after a little trial-by-fire how it works
18:22	notallama	excellent. it works: http://paste.lisp.org/display/89224 (curry function)
18:22	rhickey	qed: no cons cells in sets/vectors/maps
18:24	qed	rhickey: only in lists then?
18:24	rhickey	right
18:24	Kjellski	in others it just can not make sense right?
18:26	Kjellski	But you could think of it when you use sorted-map or sorted-set?
18:27	rhickey	Kjellski: they are ordered, but not linked lists
18:27	qed	Kjellski: I saw something in Rich's talk with Beckman about how conj works fwiw
18:27	qed	btw rhickey -- I really enjoyed that screencast
18:27	rhickey	great
18:28	rhickey	just think of conj as add and remember that all the collections are different data structures, even if they all can be accessed sequentially
18:30	Kjellski	Uups, yes.
18:30	Kjellski	Where can I find that cast?
18:30	Kjellski	blip?
18:34	qed	Kjellski: let me find you the link
18:34	qed	Kjellski: http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Expert-to-Expert-Rich-Hickey-and-Brian-Beckman-Inside-Clojure/
18:35	qed	Kjellski: pay no attention to the "Install Microsoft Silverlight" thing, just click on the Media Downloads link and get the WMV or whatever
18:35	Kjellski	qed: thanks!
18:35	qed	Kjellski: no problem, if you find any neat references/videos/etc. let me know :)
18:36	Kjellski	qed: Sure =)
18:38	Kjellski	gone for watching...
18:38	qed	Kjellski: enjoy :)
18:49	qed	Kjellski: FWIW the conj/cons stuff is at about T+25min
18:58	Kjellski	qed: thanks... I´m getting there soon
19:04	ambient	the thing is, lisp is only like one third of what one has to learn in clojure
19:05	ambient	i still haven't grokked all the concurrency constructs
19:08	defn	weird. why doesn't lazy-cons exist for me?
19:08	ambient	it's lazy-seq now afaik
19:08	defn	oh, thanks
19:08	ambient	and it works a bit different
19:25	chouser	lazy-cons is from pre-1.0 clojure. If you find it documented somewhere, you might write the author so they can update it.
19:39	qed	im gonna re-write the code with lazy-seq and then post it to my blog and reference the original article
19:39	qed	http://clj-me.cgrand.net/index.php?s=Primes is where i found it
19:40	qed	im trying to make a lazy sequence of primes using def
19:49	Kjellski	rhickey: That was a great talk... have you talked on after the recording?
19:49	Kjellski	rhickey: Sounded pretty fancy what Brian told you about his RTOS at the end...
19:50	rhickey	Kjellski: yes, Brian's a neat guy
19:50	qed	How could you not like a guy with a cowboy hat and sunglasses?
19:51	qed	That wasn't a subtle jab, btw-- I think it's great.
19:55	qed	Kjellski: I enjoyed it quite a bit -- I've actually used it as an intro to clojure/lisp for a few of my friends
19:56	qed	It sort of gives a brief conversational history of some common things you'd find in lisp, how they work in clojure, etc.
19:56	qed	I think the main thing I took away from it was some of the language and how you'd express some of the ideas in clojure in a conversational way
19:59	fanatico	qed: link?
20:00	djork	qed: what do you use as an intro?
20:00	Kjellski	http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Expert-to-Expert-Rich-Hickey-and-Brian-Beckman-Inside-Clojure/
20:02	djork	is it wrong to make a nondeterministic seq?
20:02	Kjellski	Yes, the introduction is pretty nice... that´s what I say too, just to overwhelm people with argument why I really _needed_ to learn just _another_ language (which normally takes a conversation in a "You´ve definitly have too much time" like thing...) ^^
20:03	djork	heh
20:14	Kjellski	What should I do if I want to go through a vec and if the element meet some criteria, I want that one to be changed? Sorry, but I don´t know how to explain what I mean in a immutable way...
20:15	Kjellski	+s
20:15	djork	start with thinking "how should I build the result"
20:15	djork	so you've got three parts, the beginning, the element you want to change, and the rest
20:16	Kjellski	Wait, I´ll post the problem and my textual solution...
20:16	djork	Side note: it would be immensely helpful, but also hard to pronounce, to have a "The Little Clojure-er"
20:16	djork	or maybe Clojurist
20:18	Kjellski	http://paste.lisp.org/display/89229
20:18	Kjellski	Yap, I would love to have that too... /annotate
20:18	Kjellski	^^
20:22	djork	Kjellski: I'd just return a new vector with the new value for each bacteria and any new 5s that spawn... pretty simple I'd think.
20:23	Kjellski	djork: just not trying to make that all at one?
20:23	Kjellski	ce
20:25	djork	the resulting population from a given population is pretty simply defined there
20:25	djork	you just have to think in terms of the next population
20:25	Kjellski	I´m just not in functional thinking you know... that´s my whole problem here
20:26	djork	yeah I know what you mean :)
20:26	djork	think of it like this
20:26	djork	your population is [2]
20:27	djork	so the next population is [2 5]
20:27	djork	err sorry
20:27	djork	[1 5]
20:27	Kjellski	sure
20:28	Kjellski	but think of the case you´ve got [3 3]..
20:28	Kjellski	[2 2 5 5]
20:28	Kjellski	and than [1 1 5 5 4 4]
20:31	rhickey	It's alive!! (defclass* begins to breathe)
20:31	Kjellski	how to get the new vector with that decreased one bac?
20:31	Kjellski	rhickey: congrats!
20:32	djork	Kjellski: the idea is to not add the dead bacteria to the new population vector
20:32	djork	remember, you're not mutating the current generation... just creating the next one
20:32	Kjellski	okay. shame my brain needs to be rewired by funtional thinking...
20:35	Kjellski	Damned, I think I´ve got it... but how to return 5 and the (dec bac) ?
20:35	Kjellski	^^
20:50	AWizzArd	rhickey: thanks for this nice message, I will now sleep well :-)
20:50	Kjellski	Good night.
20:54	chouser	rhickey -- writing Java code so we don't have to.
20:56	danlei	what's defclass*? is that related to deftype?
20:57	Raynes	I don't know what either one of those are. :\| I've been out of the loop for a while.
20:57	danlei	Raynes: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes
21:02	Raynes	Oh. Sort of like Haskell's Data-types... Sort of.
21:02	Raynes	Minus the hyphenation.
21:02	Raynes	I was feeling dashy. :>
21:03	Raynes	It reminds me of Haskell Datatypes, somehow.
21:03	Kjellski	How can I "unpack" vectors in vectors?
21:04	Kjellski	like [1 [2 3] -> [1 2 3] ?
21:04	Kjellski	err [1 [2 3]] -> [1 2 3] ?
21:05	danlei	Kjellski: clojure.contrib.seq-utils/flatten
21:05	Kjellski	danlei : thanks
21:07	danlei	welcome
21:15	djork	what's the idiomatic way to express "else" in a cond
21:15	djork	?
21:15	djork	is it to just (def else true) ? :)
21:15	danlei	:else
21:15	djork	ah
21:15	djork	is that in the docs?
21:15	djork	I don't see it in /api
21:16	danlei	actually, everything true will work
21:16	danlei	but :else is conventional
21:20	djork	just not documented?
21:20	djork	oh, nevermind I see
21:20	djork	:else is treated as true
21:20	djork	:anything would be
21:22	djork	hmm, so a fn with [x] and [[x & rest]] is the same arity?
21:26	durka42	djork: looks like it
21:33	danlei	(defn foo
21:33	danlei	([x] 'hello)
21:33	danlei	([x & rest] 'goodbye))
21:34	danlei	(foo 1) → hello, (foo 1 1) → goodbye
21:35	danlei	oh, nevermind :)
22:01	Kjellski	,(remove nil [1 2 3 nil])
22:01	Kjellski	???
22:01	Kjellski	This causes a NullPointerException
22:02	danlei	(remove nil? [1 2 3 nil])
22:02	The-Kenny	Kjellski: remove taks a predicate, not an element.
22:02	Kjellski	I seeee ^^ thanks, but why is it not saying that nil is no IFn or so?
22:03	danlei	error messages are just not the best ones atm
22:04	Kjellski	nevermind... just wondered because these seemed to me pretty consistent...
22:18	Kjellski	let me guess, remove is lazy right?
22:18	chouser	yep
22:19	Kjellski	I could just bang my head against a wall ^^
22:21	Kjellski	just like flatten?
22:22	chouser	flatten uses filter and tree-seq, both lazy, so yes.
22:23	Kjellski	Just couldn´t find it in the doc of flatten.
22:25	chouser	yeah, it probably ought to say its lazy.
22:27	chouser	it's
22:32	toups	Is there something like with-output-to-file in clojure-contrib or the core that I am missing?
22:51	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "defclass* begins" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89234
23:02	qed	clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
23:03	qed	(def pal-range (range 900 1000))
23:03	qed	wha?? I was doing this earlier with no problems...
23:11	qed	anyone? this is weird.
23:16	chouser	qed: you're trying (pal-range) ? Try instead without parens.
23:19	chouser	rhickey_: is there significance in having it all in one function?
23:37	cema	Hi all. First time here, not sure about the etiquette. I am learning Clojure and have a quick question - anyone available to give me an answer or a hint?
23:38	notallama	perhaps. what's your question?
23:38	rhickey_	chouser: it's jjust a way for me to call new without AOT since the body of the fn will have the same classloader
23:39	chouser	cema: you're welcome to ask
23:39	chouser	rhickey_: ah, got it.
23:39	cema	Reading from console in Emacs/Slime versus terminal clj.
23:39	jkoppel	Wow, looks like I had good timing logging in. I was just about to ask how to use AOT
23:39	cema	Specifically, reading the password (but any readLline).
23:40	cema	Can I copy a line of code here?
23:40	chouser	cema: a line or two is fine here, otherwise use paste.lisp.org
23:41	chouser	lisppaste8: url
23:41	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
23:41	cema	(def P (.readPassword (java.lang.System/console)))
23:42	cema	Works fine in terminal, but returns a null error in Emacs/Slime.
23:42	cema	So I guess two questions here.
23:42	cema	One, how to read passwords properly in a console-type application.
23:42	chouser	cema: I've never used System/console -- looks handy.
23:43	cema	Two, whether I should avoid the console (and what to use instead).
23:43	cema	Thanks!
23:43	chouser	cema: but I imagine swank starts the JVM process without a console attached.
23:44	cema	in is set; is that not sufficient?
23:44	cema	Or should I explicitly start... something (what then?)?
23:44	chouser	probably not -- a pipe may or may not be associated with a console.
23:45	cema	I see. Is there a standard way to attach it?
23:45	cema	(Or a non-standard way?)
23:46	chouser	I would guess if you want to do a password prompt via slime/swank, you'd probably have to do something emacs-specific -- somehow communicate to emacs that it shouldn't echo keystrokes.
23:46	chouser	I don't know nearly enough about emacs to help you there though.
23:46	cema	I see. But even .readLine does not work in Emacs.
23:46	notallama	so i'm working on a pointfree library. this is what it looks like now: http://paste.lisp.org/display/89236
23:46	chouser	emacs itself could be running in a graphical mode without any console available I would imagine.
23:47	cema	So I guess I need to see what Emacs (specifically, Swank) does with console?
23:47	cema	Then #clojure may not be the best place to ask. Any place you could recommend?
23:48	chouser	cema: maybe some emacs/lisp person could help you. It seems likelye that whatever solution would work for emacs and Common Lisp, for example, could be made to work for Clojure.
23:49	jkoppel	Alright, I'm trying to AOT compile a project of mine. I just compiled a couple dependencies from contrib just fine, but I'm getting an IOException from File.createNewFile when attempting to compile my own darmani.utils namespace
23:49	jkoppel	I'm using the line: (binding [compile-path "projects/clojure/"] (compile 'darmani.utils))
23:49	cema	That is correct, and I think I will now search for the solution towards that direction. Thanks a lot!
23:55	jkoppel	So....can anyone tell me how I should be using AOT compilation?
23:56	chouser	jkoppel: you're sure your "projects/clojure/" directory exists and is writable?