#clojure – 2009-10-22

2009-10-22

00:58	technomancy	jlilly: I've never noticed any difference between openjdk and sun's.
00:58	technomancy	I think the only difference is in some desktop-app font rendering
00:59	technomancy	jlilly: $CLASSPATH and -cp are mutually exclusive IIRC
00:59	technomancy	generally the env var is discouraged
01:01	mikehinchey	I found one problem with openjdk, something about clojure.contrib.jmx, I posted to clojure-dev. But I've used openjdk a lot with clojure.
01:23	jlilly	technomancy: I got it all sorted out.
01:24	jlilly	thx though.
02:00	hiredman	hah!
02:01	hiredman	I can run ant, and the first time clojure will build using LispReader, then run ant again and clojure will build using my reader written in clojure
02:02	hiredman	now I just need to get rid of all the calls to LispReader/* in my reader written in clojure
02:05	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojure/tree/readerII
02:35	mikehinchey	hiredman: that's a good way way of putting it :)
03:32	angerman	how would I turn (a b c d) -> (d a b c) ?
03:36	hiredman	,((fn [x] (conj (butlast x) (last x))) '(a b c d))
03:36	clojurebot	(d a b c)
03:38	angerman	ahh, butlast
05:26	G0SUB	I was just wondering, what is the problem in introducing optional (and/or) keyword arguments to Clojure?
05:29	G0SUB	They are quite useful sometimes.
05:31	cgrand	GOSUB: perfs and interop
05:31	cgrand	G0SUB i mean
05:32	G0SUB	cgrand: interop with what?
05:32	cgrand	java
05:32	G0SUB	cgrand: and is perf a real issue?
05:33	cgrand	on each call? I think but I haven't thought too far about how it could be implented.
05:34	G0SUB	hmm
05:34	cgrand	G0SUB: but you could mimick them with maps and/or macros
05:36	cgrand	(fn [{:keys [opt1 opt2 opt3] :or {:opt3 42}}] ...)
05:36	arbscht	G0SUB: you have optional arguments with arity overloading, and something like keywords with hash destructuring (or c.c.def/defnk). that covers a lot of cases
05:37	G0SUB	cgrand: as far as mimicking keyword args, I don't like that fact that I have to call a fn like (myfn {:a 1 :b 2}) and not (myfn :a 1 :b 2)
05:37	G0SUB	arbscht: hmm, let me look again.
05:38	AWizzArd	Strange... I am using htmlunit and do (.asText #^HtmlPage (.getPage webclient url)) and this results in a reflection warning "reference to field asText can't be resolved". But when I do (let [p (.getPage webclient url)] (.asText #^HtmlPage p)) then I get no reflection warning.
05:38	AWizzArd	cgrand: maybe you have an idea why it is that way?
05:43	cgrand	G0SUB: (fn [& args] (let [{:keys [opt1 opt2 opt3] :or {:opt3 42}} (apply hash-map args)] ...)) ; and I think that's more or less what defnk macroexpands to
05:44	G0SUB	cgrand: OK. thanks. I will take a look at defnk.
05:47	cgrand	AWizzArd: yes I see what's the problem is. macro and inline expansion make type hints disappear
05:49	cgrand	(meta '#^HtmlPage (.getPage webclient url))
05:49	cgrand	,(meta '#^HtmlPage (.getPage webclient url))
05:49	clojurebot	{:tag HtmlPage}
05:49	cgrand	,(meta (macroexpand-1 '#^HtmlPage (.getPage webclient url)))
05:49	clojurebot	nil
05:49	cgrand	,(macroexpand-1 '#^HtmlPage (.getPage webclient url))
05:49	clojurebot	(. webclient getPage url)
05:50	cgrand	AWizzArd: can't you just hint webclient?
05:51	AWizzArd	I will try that
05:51	cgrand	I guess if webclient (and maybe url) are propely hinted the return type of .getPage will be inferred to HtmlPage
05:51	AWizzArd	Although funnily getpage doesn't produce a complaint
05:52	AWizzArd	I have a (let [webclient (WebClient.)] ...) so I thought webclient is implicitly hinted.
05:52	cgrand	can you paste with more context?
05:53	AWizzArd	Do you have htmlunit installed and setup in your classpath?
05:54	AWizzArd	If yes I could hack up a minimal example for pasting into a .clj file which will demonstrate it.
05:55	AWizzArd	But what I basically have is: (let [webclient (WebClient.), url (java.net.URL. "http://clojure.org/")] ... (.asText (.getPage webclient url)))
06:18	cgrand	AWizzArd: ok, looked at the javadocs .getPage returns a Page object so you must "downhint" it to HtmlPage
06:19	cgrand	right now your let is the best workaround I can think of
06:22	AWizzArd	Yes, .getPage returns a Page. So in those cases, where a method returns an "instance of an Interface" (such as Page) the type hint info can get lost?
06:26	cgrand	rhickey: would you accept a patch to preserve (merge) metadata on macro (and inline) expansion? It would make some hinting headaches go away.
06:27	rhickey	cgrand: preserve which metadata?
06:28	rhickey	on the form as a whole?
06:30	cgrand	yes actually type hints are lost when put on something that is expanded (macro, inline, .method), so I was thinking about merging metadata of the original form into the expanded form's metadata
06:32	AWizzArd	Currently it seems a work around is needed, such as (let [p (.getPage webclient url)] (.asText #^HtmlPage p)) ==> no reflection warning, vs (.asText #^HtmlPage (.getPage webclient url)) ==> can't resolve the call to .asText
06:34	rhickey	cgrand: you can't do that, but it would be nice to have a way to communicate it to the macro itself, so it could if it wanted. Right now there is no &whole-like thing
06:35	AWizzArd	cgrand: btw, if metadata would be preserved, would that also mean that there won't be reflection warnings anymore for things as (.replaceAll (with-out-str ...) ...)? Currently i need to (let [xyz (with-out-str ..)] (.replaceAll #^String xyz ...)) to prevent reflection.
06:39	esj	Hi everybody, please excuse a very naive question, but can anybody provide an explanation, or link to such, of the -> macro ? I'm struggling to find anything beyond (doc ->), which has, sadly, not enlightened me.
06:40	G0SUB	esj: (-> {} (assoc :a 1) (assoc :b 2))
06:40	G0SUB	esj: that expands to (assoc (assoc {} :a 1) :b 2)
06:40	esj	aha !
06:41	esj	I get it, much obliged indeed.
06:41	AWizzArd	,(macroexpand-1 '(-> 5 (+ 3)))
06:41	clojurebot	(+ 5 3)
06:41	G0SUB	esj: :)
06:42	arsatiki	esj: I think it's a sort of a enhanced reverse function composition
06:43	arbscht	-> it is not function composition
06:43	arbscht	it simply rearranges code
06:43	arsatiki	yeah, that's why it's "sort of"
06:44	rhickey	(-> x a b c) => (c (b (a x)))
06:44	rhickey	(-> x (a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) => (c (b (a x 1) 2) 3)
06:44	rhickey	it just reduces nesting and lets you write things in the order in which they will occur, when that's convenient
06:45	G0SUB	woohoo! rhickey
06:48	rhickey	-> threads the expr as first arg, ->> threads the expr as last arg: (->> x (a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) => (c 3 (b 2 (a 1 x)))
06:48	AWizzArd	rhickey: it would be so nice to have a function "pipe" that is like comp, but follows the sequence like -> does.
06:51	esj	Thanks very much everybody.
06:52	AWizzArd	Using comp often means to write "(comp fn1" then using the arrow keys to go left, editing it to become "(comp #(fn2 1 % 3) fn1", then again the arrow keys, etc.
06:55	rhickey	AWizzArd: since it's not a nesting issue, only arg order, not very compelling
06:57	AWizzArd	I see
06:58	AWizzArd	Just found myself often using comp, which is not soo nice for editing and reading.
06:58	arsatiki	oh
06:58	arsatiki	I had the impression that comp use was pretty rare
07:03	AWizzArd	Maybe not soo often, but for example if your webserver was writing log files readably, containing json strings you maybe want to analyze them (map (comp read-json :text first read-string #(slurp % "UTF-8")) log-files)
07:04	liwp	it's very nice for things like that. it get's a bit messy if you have to use partial when your functions take more than one argument
07:04	AWizzArd	liwp: or using %1 %2 %3 or %*
07:04	AWizzArd	Typically I don't use partial and instead the nice reader macro #(...)
07:05	liwp	AWizzArd: yep. I tend to prefer #() rather than partial
07:21	arsatiki	re: comp, partial -- I'm often impressed by the ease Haskell handles them (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree)
07:21	arsatiki	but honestly, sometimes pointfree is really pointless :)
07:23	G0SUB	What's the best way to unzip a file in Clojure?
07:33	AWizzArd	G0SUB: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/zip/ZipFile.html
07:33	G0SUB	AWizzArd: yeah, looking at that itself :)
07:35	AWizzArd	you can do: (enumeration-seq (.entries (java.util.zip.ZipFile. (java.io.File. "c:/clojure/clojure.zip"))))
07:38	cgrand	rhickey: sorry, I have been called away. Why can't I do that?
07:46	G0SUB	AWizzArd: how do I handle directories and all?
07:46	G0SUB	AWizzArd: I want to use as much code from c.c as possible.
07:50	kunley	Hi.
07:51	kunley	Do we have Long literals in Clojure?
07:54	AWizzArd	kunley: (long 123456789)
07:54	rhickey	cgrand: because you don't know what the macro wants/needs - it may be creating something non-meta-supporting, or setting meta explicitly, expecting that to be the only meta on the expansion
07:55	kunley	doh.. likely need more coffee ;] thx!
07:56	AWizzArd	G0SUB: What do you mean, how do you handle directories?
07:57	AWizzArd	The ZipEntries that .entries returns will list all files in all directories
07:57	G0SUB	AWizzArd: well, if the zip file has directories, how will the unzipping maintain the same dir structure?
07:58	AWizzArd	The java.io.File class has a (.mkdirs ...) method.
08:00	AWizzArd	G0SUB: and you have a (.isDirectory some-entry)
08:01	G0SUB	hmm
08:01	AWizzArd	So if that returns true, then call (.mkdirs (File. (str some-entry))) and you will have the directory
08:02	AWizzArd	I'm not sure if .entries must return the enumeration of ZipEntry's in such a way that a directory entry D will always come before entries that live in D.
08:03	G0SUB	AWizzArd: OK, got it. by the way, how do I figure out in which dir a file exists? Does File have a method for that?
08:03	AWizzArd	I would suggest you to filter all entries that are true for .isDirectory, then mkdirs those, and only then begin storing files in there.
08:03	G0SUB	AWizzArd: thanks for the tip.
08:04	AWizzArd	G0SUB: the (str your-entry) will return a string of the directory
08:04	AWizzArd	plus file name
08:04	AWizzArd	just play with it in the repl
08:04	cgrand	rhickey: don't you find surprising for the user to see his type hints ignored/discarded?
08:04	cgrand	Concerning your two points: if the macro returns something non-meta supporting, a warning can inform the user his metadata is discarded. And for a macro setting meta explicitely (and expecting it to be the only meta) there would be a problem only when the user adds his own metadata.
08:05	AWizzArd	G0SUB: in Contrib there is a filter function "separate" which you could use to separate the directory ZipEntry's from the non-directory ones.
08:05	G0SUB	AWizzArd: will look. thanks.
08:05	cgrand	I think the new problem would be less frequent than the current one
08:06	AWizzArd	cgrand: I was surprised today when working with htmlunit, and I also thought that .replaceAll would know that a (with-out-str ...) will return a String.
08:06	rhickey	cgrand: discarded how? no macro can promise to use any metadata placed on it's invocation. You are presuming some semantics for metadata (that it is destined for the expansion) that's simply not there
08:06	G0SUB	AWizzArd: where in c.c is separate?
08:07	AWizzArd	clojure.contrib.seq-utils/separate
08:07	G0SUB	ok
08:09	cgrand	rhickey: I think I failed to explain what I want
08:09	rhickey	#^meta (a-macro-call) ==> #^meta (its-expansion), right?
08:10	cgrand	right :-(
08:11	rhickey	so the question is, who should 'own' the metadata on the macro call, the enclosing scope or the macro itself
08:12	rhickey	if a macro were to be passed &whole (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm) one would presume it could act on the metadata
08:12	cgrand	currently the macro can't see it (no &whole)
08:13	rhickey	but there's nothing in the definition of macros that says they can't become richer than they are (macros are just functions is an implementation detail of the current mechanism)
08:13	rhickey	&whole and environments would be logical extensions
08:14	rhickey	at which point this ownership issue would arise
08:15	cgrand	ok, so I may try to restrict what I'd like: can we have #^meta (.method obj) ==> #^meta (. obj method) and #^meta (inlined-fn obj) ==> #^meta (inline-expansion)
08:16	rhickey	in the - a macro call provides its replacement - world, I would give ownership to the macro
08:17	rhickey	cgrand: I'm wondering in those cases that the meta isn't better place on obj, then return type should flow through
08:18	cgrand	rhickey: I agree except when the .method says to return an interface and you want to "downhint" to something more specific
08:18	rhickey	but yes, those expansions are compiler controlled so could do
08:19	rhickey	I would accept a patch limited to that
08:19	AWizzArd	would be helpful
08:20	cgrand	rhickey: ok thanks!
08:20	rhickey	cgrand: thank you!
08:27	AWizzArd	rhickey: would a datatype made via deftype be GCable?
08:27	rhickey	AWizzArd: the class itself or instances?
08:27	AWizzArd	the class itself I mean
08:27	rhickey	subject to same issues as all classes
08:28	AWizzArd	ok
08:29	rhickey	I'm working on making protocols hold classes weakly, not there yet
08:29	rhickey	and not sure it would matter, since their caches must hold strongly
08:29	AWizzArd	sounds very promising
08:30	rhickey	once implementing a protocol and called, class would be embedded in cache until un-implemented
08:30	rhickey	so not so promising
08:42	G0SUB	AWizzArd: This is what I wrote just now. Works well. http://paste.lisp.org/display/89087
08:43	G0SUB	AWizzArd: many thanks for the tips. I am a Java n00b :)
08:43	AWizzArd	Anyway, it would still be enormously helpful to have deftype. We have a lot of structs that contain a :type slot, but this is convention. Having a default way for marking a type (deftype ...) would make things easier. But mostly the speedup will be very nice.
08:44	AWizzArd	G0SUB: grats! You have a nice zip app now :)
08:44	AWizzArd	G0SUB: you can download the SDK from http://www.7-zip.org/sdk.html and extend your program to handle .7z files as well.
08:46	G0SUB	AWizzArd: well, right now, I just need to handle the Zip algo. May be some other time :)
10:11	saml	i installed clojure box. i can type stuff in REPL. where do I learn to actually use it to program? like editing files, loading some defn from files.. debugging, printing doc of a symbol, jumping to definition of the symbol...etc?
10:17	RomanRoe	Is it possible to get namespace/function code completion in Emacs/Slime? (Just like in Enclojure and CCW)
10:18	liwp	RomanRoe: you should get it out of the box on the repl, just hit tab
10:18	liwp	I'm not sure what the keybinding would be for a clojure-mode buffer, try M-tab
10:19	RomanRoe	liwp: thx. will try that
10:20	liwp	RomanRoe: looks like M-tab is bound to slime-complete-symbol if your clojure buffer has the slime-minor-mode enabled (as it should)
10:22	RomanRoe	liwp: unfort. I cant check it right now (different machine right now). But I doubt that M-tab work since it cycles the windows
10:22	liwp	saml: try googling for some clojure / slime blog posts. But the basic steps are something like this: open a new buffer (e.g. test.clj), write some code in it, and hit C-c C-k to compile and load the file to the repl
10:22	RomanRoe	liwp: I will try M-x slime-complete-symbol and remap if it works
10:22	liwp	RomanRoe: you can hit M-tab by hitting Esc and Tab
10:23	RomanRoe	liwp: ah thx! I am a emacs newbie... ;-)
10:23	liwp	annoying, I know, but you can rebind it
10:23	liwp	I only found out about M-tab maybe a week ago ;-)
10:50	Kjellski	Hi there =)
10:53	Kjellski	Can someone tell me how I can call a constructor of a native java class with more than one argument? I saw that in the book but can´t find it again...
10:54	rhickey	Kjellski: (TheClass. a b c)
10:55	Kjellski	homerlike doh... thanks!
10:55	rhickey	np
11:08	Soulster	hello everyone, whats up with "gen-and-load-class" when i am using it i get "Unable to resolve symbol: gen-and-load-class in this context"
11:08	Soulster	with a java.lang.Exception
11:12	Chousuke	Soulster: gen-and-load-class went away ages ago :)
11:12	Soulster	outch..^^
11:14	chouser	Soulster: you may use gen-class, but that requires you use 'compile' to actually generate the class.
12:01	ambient	i can't quite get this to work: (defmacro foo [num] `(do ~(for [i# (range 5)] `(+ 1 1))))
12:01	ambient	it's supposed to expand into (do (+ 1 1) (+ 1 1)) etc..
12:01	chouser	try ~@ instead of ~
12:02	ambient	cool! thanks
12:05	cgrand	ambient: and no need for the # in i#: you aren't in the syntax quote
12:06	ambient	i just started doing macros 30 minutes ago :p
12:06	ambient	so what you mean by syntax quote, i dont know
12:07	chouser	` is read "syntax quote"
12:07	ambient	ok
12:07	ambient	well, i will be so it might as well be i#
12:08	ambient	(defmacro foo [num] `(do ~@(for [i# (range num)] `(+ ~i# ~i#))))
12:09	chouser	still no need for the #
12:09	ambient	ok
12:09	chouser	don't worry -- if you forget the # somewhere that you should have it, Clojure will yell at you.
12:10	cgrand	as soon as you cross a ~ (unquote) you escape from the syntax-quote
12:10	Chousuke	I think I managed to compile a clojure with my reader
12:10	Chousuke	the repl still uses lispreader though.
12:11	Chousuke	presumably because of read... hm
12:14	ambient	my first working macro, that's actually useful: (defmacro mdaset [a vals] `(do ~@(for [i (range (count vals))] `(aset #^doubles ~a ~i ~(vals i))))) :)
12:15	ambient	sets values to an array
12:20	Chousuke	\o/ it works
12:20	Chousuke	well, as far as I can tell, anyway
12:20	Chousuke	except for a small bug
12:21	Chousuke	for some reason, if my input ends with a symbol I need to press enter twice.
12:22	cgrand	ambient: you can't hint an unquote, you should change the do in a let [#^doubles a# ~a]
12:23	cgrand	and replace all other ~a by a#
12:23	Chousuke	or ~(with-meta a {:tag 'doubles})
12:38	ambient	type hints dont seem to macro-expand :/
12:38	ambient	cgrand answered my question :P
12:39	Chousuke	type hints are read-time. you're actually attaching the hints to the macro code :P
12:41	ambient	my problem is that if the macro breaks, the execution time of the program goes from 0.2 sec to 16
12:45	ambient	(defmacro daset [a vals] `(let [#^doubles b# ~a] ~@(for [[idx val] (partition 2 vals)] `(aset b# ~idx ~val)))) ==> "unable to resolve symbol: b__16325__auto__ in this context"
12:47	cgrand	ambient: sorry didn't notice that you were going in an uout of syntax-quote so the two b# are different. Try Chousuke's solution or
12:49	ambient	thanks, it works now :)
12:49	ambient	fist pump
12:49	cgrand	(defmacro daset [a vals] (let [b (with-meta (gensym "b") {:tag 'doubles})] `(let [~b ~a] ~@(for [[idx val] (partition 2 vals)] `(aset ~b ~idx ~val)))) ; not worth it here
12:52	ambient	pretty cool, now i can just write (daset oscm2 [0 (+ car-f os1-o), 2 car-v]) instead of painfully doing it piece by piece
12:52	ambient	and the performance doesn't suffer at all
12:52	cgrand	no i'm wrong: this last one is worth the pain because it doesn't cause multiple evaluations of a (which is important when a is not a symbol but a function call)
12:52	ambient	here's mine: (defmacro daset [a vals] `(do ~@(for [[idx val] (partition 2 vals)] `(aset ~(with-meta a {:tag 'doubles}) ~idx ~val))))
12:54	cgrand	try (macroexpand-1 '(daset (foo bar) [0 1 2 3]))
12:54	ambient	it's not supposed to be used like that
12:55	cgrand	ok, I just wanted to make you aware of potential shortcomings
12:55	ambient	(foo bar) would be evaluated at each iteration?
12:57	cgrand	yes because your macro would expand to (do (aset (foo bar) 0 1) (aset (foo bar) 2 3))
12:58	cgrand	my last (untested) one should expand to (let [b457 (foo bar)] (aset b457 0 1) (aset b457 2 3))
13:01	ambient	if i would be making more general purpose array handling operations, that might be a problem. for my case every array's lifetime is programs lifetime and there are no intermediate arrays
13:38	cemerick	since it's macro workshop day: how do people deal with using private fns in public macros? I've always just used the corresponding var, but that feels wrong.
13:42	Chousuke	just make them public and document that the only supported way of using them is via the macro
13:43	Chousuke	hmm, pretty good.
13:44	hiredman	Chousuke: hows the reader coming?
13:44	Chousuke	running the clojure tests with my reader, I got one test failure and two errors
13:44	hiredman	:/
13:45	Chousuke	the failure tests compiler metadata which I omit on purpose :P
13:45	Chousuke	the errors are... something. need to investigate
13:45	hiredman	can you build clojure with it?
13:45	Chousuke	hm
13:45	Chousuke	didn't try.
13:46	hiredman	really?
13:46	cgrand	cemerick: by "used the corresponding var" you mean @#'ns/private-fn? I agree with Chousuke, make them public but documented as unsupported
13:48	cemerick	cgrand: yes. Just making the fns public seems worse, though. Reminds me of abstract method overrides on Java APIs that aren't meant to be called that have javadoc that reads "Public as an implementation detail, do not use." Uk.
13:50	hiredman	how do you know if rhickey got your ca?
13:50	hiredman	ask him?
13:50	cgrand	hiredman: check the cotributors page
13:50	cgrand	contributors even
13:50	hiredman	w00t
13:51	Chousuke	hm, I get a nullpointer exception :-(
13:51	hiredman	I can build clojure, but the reader is not complete yet, the missing parts are stubbed out to LispReader
13:51	cgrand	cemerick: can't you make your macro shallow? and backed by a public (supported) function
13:53	djork	This might be more of a Java issue than a Clojure one, but if build a MUD-style game using a thread per-player, will I have problems with high player counts?
13:53	djork	this is just based on some (probably bad) advice from a friend who said that threaded servers don't scale
13:53	djork	i.e. in terms of memory usage etc.
13:54	cemerick	cgrand: yeah, I could support it, but the macro helps to ensure proper usage. I suppose I should put the unsupported stuff in a secondary ns.
13:54	Knekk	maybe thread-per-connection servers don't scale.... threaded servers scale
13:54	hiredman	I doubt you will have any trouble with a mud
13:54	cemerick	djork: use an agent per player, and you can have thousands, millions perhaps.
13:54	djork	hmm
13:55	hiredman	cemerick: ahem
13:55	djork	I'm still not quite clear on agents. Is there a good example on their usage? The docs don't quite "click" yet.
13:55	cemerick	hiredman: hrm?
13:56	Chousuke	hmm, interesting
13:56	hiredman	agents sit on top of threads, so picking agents because you don't want threads doesn't seem like a good idea
13:57	djork	yeah
13:57	djork	that's what I thought
13:57	Chousuke	I suspect there's something wrong with my syntax-quote :/
13:57	technomancy	agents use a thread pool
13:57	hiredman	djork: with the amount of users you will get for a mud, a thread per user should not be a problem
13:57	djork	heh :)
13:57	hiredman	technomancy: yes
13:57	cemerick	hiredman: my point is that agents are lightweight; you could service a very, very large number of agents with a very small number of threads.
13:57	djork	the idea is to scale up to a graphical client on iPhone eventually
13:57	hiredman	but the send-off threadpool is unbounded
13:58	djork	which could see a lot more users
13:58	hiredman	cemerick: ah
13:58	djork	hmm, so agents join threads in the pool as needed? or something like that?
13:58	cemerick	I see no reason why you couldn't use send for a MUD (and maybe snapshot state every now and then or something).
13:58	hiredman	right, for re-use of threads that happen to be laying around :P
13:59	cemerick	djork: agents use threads as needed, when they have an action to service.
13:59	djork	OK that makes sense. Now if only I understood their general use :P
13:59	hiredman	Chousuke: it's statements like that that make me want a line by line port of the java reader :P
14:00	djork	By the way, is there any work towards tracebacks for Clojure code?
14:00	Knekk	you'll still run into problems when your number of agents and actions saturate and exceed the threadpool
14:00	Knekk	maybe think about queueing actions, decouple your user connections
14:02	cemerick	The real criteria is whether one's actions will saturate the send threadpool to such an extent that responsiveness is impacted. For a MUD, probably never.
14:02	Knekk	cemerick: you are assuming that a MUD won't have thousands of users.
14:02	Knekk	cemerick: there's no reason why it shouldn't
14:03	Knekk	cemerick: specially as he wants to port to the iPhone
14:03	cemerick	Knekk: well, it's a little bit moot one way or the other -- you can do as much decoupling as you want, but you can't do more work than what the send threadpool can schedule (e.g. you've got the cores you've got, and that's a pretty hard limit regardless of the arch.)
14:05	Knekk	I'd personally queue actions so that the impact of saturation is seen as latency across the system for all users rather than arbitrary delays/timeouts for some connections.
14:05	Knekk	cemerick: right, but one can control where the pain is felt.
14:07	cemerick	Good point. I guess it's a product mgmt question, then: IMHO, better to get the thing working, and if he's so lucky to have a load problem, his massive bankroll can be put into an alternative scheduling strategy for agents. :-)
14:08	Knekk	It'd be a good problem to have, for sure
14:08	cemerick	Actually, it might be as easy as building a send* variant that uses a given threadpool that throttles as desired.
14:08	jasapp	roughly, how many users is this MUD to support?
14:08	cemerick	(this is already the most heavily-engineered MUD in history ;-) )
14:08	jasapp	heh
14:09	serp_	cemerick: how would one do that?
14:11	cemerick	serp_: in broad strokes, change Agent.dispatch and Agent$Action to take an ExecutorService, rather than a boolean controlling which of two standard threadpools are to be used. I'm sure there'd be a lot of consequences to such a change, but that's the first step.
14:19	Chousuke	aha, I think I found the bug.
14:20	Chousuke	I was expanding (Foo. ...) to (fully.qualified.Foo ...) :P
14:21	Chousuke	or wait
14:22	Chousuke	yeah
14:25	djork	cemerick: yes, I'd love to have too many users :)
14:26	ambient	FFFUUUUU... macros are killing my brain
14:27	djork	ambient: just be glad macros are so easy in Clojure... just try digesting the docs for building them in any other lisp
14:27	ambient	is there somewhere a whole reference for every type of macro possible in clojure?
14:27	Chousuke	type?
14:28	Chousuke	there's only one type of macro: one that takes in a form and produces another :P
14:28	ambient	meaning comprehensive
14:29	Chousuke	hm, cool
14:29	Chousuke	only one test failure for my reader now
14:30	Chousuke	for line metadata :P
14:31	djork	ambient: just check out the source
14:31	djork	grep for defmacro
14:37	ambient	here's what's giving me trouble: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/146449/
14:38	ambient	grep, one of those tools that unices use
14:39	mwoelker_	quick question: is it possible to create cyclic immutable collections in clojure? e.g. two vectors that contain each other?
14:40	cgrand	mwoelker_: quick answer: no (apart from cyclic lazy-seq)
14:42	cgrand	imagine you have a cyclic vector of one item (itself), what does (conj v 42) must return?
14:44	cgrand	[new-self 42] or [old-self 42]? it seems easy but once you are deely nested, not so: you have to "update" all collections that are on the path to the recursive reference(s)
14:45	mwoelker_	cgrand: hmm, is it possible to put refs into collections?
14:45	cgrand	yes of course and it's one way to deal with cyclic stuff
14:46	cgrand	one other being the relational way
14:46	chouser	ambient: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/146451/
14:46	mwoelker_	e.g. a list of edges (relations) for a graph?
14:47	mwoelker_	or a map?
14:47	chouser	mwoelker_: right. like a bag of RDF triples or something.
14:48	arsatiki	chouser: it seems that body is missing in that response
14:48	chouser	arsatiki: oh! indeed.
14:48	mwoelker_	wouldn't that kill performance for larger graphs?
14:48	ambient	chouser perfect, thank you. although just a hint into the right direction would be enough :)
14:49	chouser	well then a hint for the body: ~@body
14:52	Licenser_	a very off topic question, how is the clojurebot secured against tempering? I mean how do you ensure that code that is run on it does not affect the host system it runs on?
14:53	lpetit	,(System/exit)
14:53	clojurebot	java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: exit
14:53	djork	nice
14:53	lpetit	,(System/exit 0)
14:53	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.0)
14:54	chouser	Licenser_: it's got a range of things -- uses the Java sandbox to prevent access to filesystem and such, uses a blacklist of words to prevent certain kinds of meddling within the sandbox, runs stuff in a separate thread so it can be timed out to prevent consuming host resources, etc.
14:54	Licenser_	hmm nice
14:55	chouser	,(defmacro if [x y z] `(clojure.core/if x z y))
14:55	clojurebot	DENIED
14:55	Licenser_	And the JVM provides protection against flooded memory by itself due to it's memory restrictions
14:56	chouser	,(while true)
14:56	serp_	how does clojure handle recursion between two functions?
14:56	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:56	serp_	a calls b and b calls a
14:56	Licenser_	recursively
14:56	djork	is the clojurebot source available?
14:56	Licenser_	that'd be incredible nice
14:56	serp_	I understand if it's just one function you can use the recur thing
14:57	djork	,"Hello"
14:57	clojurebot	"Hello"
14:57	hiredman	serp_: trampoline
14:57	chouser	serp_: that consumes JVM stack, just as it would in Java. In some cases you can use 'trampoline' to avoid consuming stack.
14:57	djork	,ns
14:57	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
14:57	Licenser_	serp_: yes then it's optimized as tail recursion (in a kind of iterative way)
14:57	chouser	clojurebot: where are you?
14:57	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
14:58	Licenser_	clojurebot: what did you had for lunch?
14:58	clojurebot	for is not a loop
14:58	Licenser_	interesting diet
14:58	djork	hah hah
14:58	serp_	hiredman, chouser: thanks
14:58	Licenser_	,(doc trampoline)
14:58	clojurebot	"([f] [f & args]); trampoline can be used to convert algorithms requiring mutual recursion without stack consumption. Calls f with supplied args, if any. If f returns a fn, calls that fn with no arguments, and continues to repeat, until the return value is not a fn, then returns that non-fn value. Note that if you want to return a fn as a final value, you must wrap it in some data structure and unpack it after trampoline
14:59	lpetit	serp_: and you (declare) the first function if you want the stuff to compile
15:00	chouser	or use letfn
15:00	serp_	I see
15:01	djork	clojurebot: 2d6
15:01	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:01	djork	clojurebot: 2 d6
15:01	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:01	hiredman	hmmm
15:01	djork	must not be turned on :)
15:01	chouser	,2d6
15:01	clojurebot	Invalid number: 2d6
15:02	hiredman	2d6
15:02	clojurebot	4
15:02	hiredman	5d4+5
15:02	clojurebot	18
15:02	danlarkin	In the case of nested dosyncs, are internal ones no-ops (essentially)?
15:02	chouser	danlarkin: I think that's right.
15:03	djork	huh, so no "clojurebot:" first
15:03	hiredman	yeah
15:04	hiredman	Chousuke added a pluginish architecture so I wrote the dice plugin to kind of figure out the ropes
15:04	danlarkin	chouser: great, so I don't have to worry about the internal one closing the transaction before the outside one gets to finish the rest of its work
15:04	djork	I just wrote dice rolling yesterday :)
15:05	chouser	danlarkin: you certainly don't need to worry about that. Looking at the code, it's not quite a no-op -- it's still creates and calls a closure.
15:05	Licenser_	wooh let's play some Shadowrun
15:05	Licenser_	100d6
15:05	clojurebot	354
15:07	danlarkin	chouser: great, that's what I got from the code too, thank you
15:08	djork	hah hah
15:12	mwoelker_	2d6
15:12	clojurebot	2
15:12	mwoelker_	2d6
15:12	clojurebot	11
15:12	mwoelker_	2d6
15:12	clojurebot	10
15:12	mwoelker_	0d6
15:12	clojurebot	0
15:13	mwoelker_	-1d6
15:13	mwoelker_	id6
15:13	mwoelker_	1d1e3
15:13	clojurebot	1
15:15	Licenser_	1d100000
15:15	clojurebot	6196
15:17	ambient	i have no clue why this error pops up: "More than one matching method found: aset"
15:17	ambient	while trying to run a macro that uses aset outside any function
15:18	chouser	10d1
15:18	clojurebot	10
15:18	ambient	6d0
15:18	Chousuke	hmmh
15:19	Chousuke	I don't think I'm going to solve this problem today... :P
15:19	Licenser_	Chousuke: what is your problem?
15:19	Chousuke	"clojure.lang.ArraySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn" hooray for informative error messages
15:19	Licenser_	roll a dice to help you decide!
15:20	Licenser_	I think I had that yesterday - same message
15:20	Licenser_	problem for me was that I had a () too much around my code
15:20	Licenser_	I used next instead of second :P
15:20	Chousuke	the problem is, that comes from core.clj :P
15:20	Licenser_	wooh!
15:20	Licenser_	you broke it!
15:21	Licenser_	I have the feeling that is bad
15:21	Chousuke	because I'm compiling it with the version of clojure that resulted from compiling my clojure-reader-clojure with the java-reader-clojure
15:22	Chousuke	so it's most likely that my reader is producing something that confuses the compiler
15:22	chouser	ambient: what are your args to aset?
15:22	Licenser_	ah
15:22	hiredman	Chousuke: I have my reader plugged into build.xml, the first ant run it builds clojure.jar and reader.jar and subsequent runs it uses the reader from reader.jar instead of LispReader
15:23	Licenser_	why does everyone want a own reader?
15:24	ambient	using ~(with-meta a {:tag 'doubles}) seems to break something essential
15:24	ambient	inside a macro
15:24	Chousuke	hiredman: that's about what I'm doing, too. I guess :P
15:24	chouser	Licenser_: so we can use whitespace and indentation instead of parens.
15:24	hiredman	this is my first time metacirculating a language
15:24	Chousuke	me too. :P
15:24	hiredman	so figuring out where to put the indirection and stuff is interesting
15:24	ambient	i'm actually programming a metacircular language...
15:25	Licenser_	hiredman, Chousuke: why don't you combine your work?
15:25	Chousuke	but it'll be even more fun when clojure no longer needs java to actually compile itself
15:25	neotyk	Hi *, what is your single favorite feature of clojure?
15:25	G0SUB	Where can I find the two Wiki pages on datatypes and protocols that Rich published?
15:25	lpetit	~datatypes
15:25	clojurebot	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes
15:25	lpetit	~protocols
15:25	clojurebot	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Protocols
15:26	G0SUB	neotyk: sequences.
15:26	Chousuke	G0SUB: assembla for everything :)
15:26	G0SUB	Chousuke: heh
15:26	Licenser_	neotyk: paralelity
15:26	neotyk	I'm just learning but so far destructuring rocked me
15:26	ambient	neotyk parentheses
15:26	arsatiki	ambient :)
15:26	hiredman	I am really interested to see Chousuke's reader
15:26	chouser	ambient: this works for me: (let [ary (into-array Double/TYPE [1 2 3 4 5])] (dalet ary [a 0, b 1, c 2, d 3] [a b c d]))
15:27	hiredman	and how he is building/using it
15:27	Chousuke	hiredman: I'll push my current work on github and tell you how to build it. :P
15:28	hiredman	Chousuke: how are you getting the reader to run before clojure is loaded?
15:28	djork	neotyk: The way it takes the suck out of Java.
15:28	Licenser_	I undertand how it would work with identation but doesn't that mean I have to use a newline for everything?
15:29	ambient	chouser this doesn't for me: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/146471/
15:29	chouser	Licenser_: I was kidding about the reader, though I think there actually is one for whitespace somewhere.
15:29	Licenser_	o.o
15:29	chouser	Licenser_: I think hiredman and Chousuke are just writing readers for fun while secretly hoping rhickey ends up using them in cinc. :-)
15:30	G0SUB	Chousuke: what reader? any links?
15:30	Licenser_	muhaha
15:30	Licenser_	Well one thing I didn't yet found isa nice parser generator :/ I got too used to having one
15:31	ambient	well i construct domain spesific languages with lisp for solving problems so parser generator is not so critical ;)
15:31	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chousuke/clojure/tree/reader-integrated
15:32	Chousuke	it's... quite a mess, still :P
15:32	chouser	ambient: try (double ~val) instead of just ~val in your macro
15:32	G0SUB	Chousuke: what are the features?
15:32	hiredman	my reader is a fn with all the pieces contained in a letfn, so I keep track of the classname of the enclosing Fn
15:33	Chousuke	G0SUB: features? :)
15:33	Chousuke	G0SUB: it's just a clojure reader written in clojure :P
15:33	G0SUB	ah, cool
15:34	Chousuke	a rather simple one, too.
15:34	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojure/tree/readerII
15:34	Licenser_	ambient: but if you want to write a interpreter a DSL isn't the way to go :P
15:34	ambient	chouser works, ty
15:35	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/readerII/src/clj/clojure/reader.clj it's an incomplete port of LispReader
15:36	hiredman	Chousuke: gen-class never worked for me
15:37	Chousuke	I don't actually use gen-class with my reader
15:37	hiredman	loading the gen-class'ed class always seem to try and load clojure
15:37	Chousuke	the ClojureReader thing is a left-over from an earlier attempt.
15:38	lpetit	Licenser_ : there's fn-parse, and also cgrand is writing parsley (both are on github)
15:39	Licenser_	I looked at fn-parse but since last time I worked with racc (something yacc related) it is really hard to understand
15:39	Chousuke	I suppose a proper parser combinator would be much better :/
15:39	hiredman	Chousuke: so you load core, then your reader, then reload core using your reader?
15:39	Chousuke	hiredman: yes.
15:41	Licenser_	Chousuke: but they are hard to understand :P
15:41	hiredman	interesting
15:44	lpetit	parsley has the interesting property of being an incremental parser
15:45	Licenser_	hmm parsley
15:45	Licenser_	I see it is well documented :P
15:45	lpetit	but still in inception, not really for prime use / production purpose. But interesting to keep on the radar (We intend to use it for static analysis / user code writing assistance in counterclockwise)
15:46	lpetit	wait a min., I've something for ya
15:46	Licenser_	An experimental undocumented parser lib/DSL. Hah!
15:48	chouser	Licenser_: pretty sure that's the wrong way 'round.
15:48	lpetit	clojurebot: parsley is an incremental parser with docs at http://wiki.github.com/cgrand/parsley/design-notes and at http://cloud.github.com/downloads/cgrand/parsley/parsley.pdf
15:48	clojurebot	Roger.
15:48	lpetit	~parsley
15:48	clojurebot	parsley is an incremental parser with docs at http://wiki.github.com/cgrand/parsley/design-notes and at http://cloud.github.com/downloads/cgrand/parsley/parsley.pdf
15:48	ambient	but what are sage, rosemary and thyme?
15:48	lpetit	note those are design notes : subject to change (if not already) :)
15:48	Licenser_	chouser: why?
15:49	Licenser_	I want to see if I can do it :P I wrote one in ruby - not perfect but it does a lot already
15:50	serp_	ambient: they are spices
15:51	chouser	Licenser_: because I want to write more clojure (perhaps where only JavaScript is supported), not vice versa.
15:51	somnium	the day when the DOM can be scripted in pure-clojure will be a beautiful day indeed
15:51	hiredman	Chousuke: I am going to ask rhickey about exposing LispReader has Fn bound to something like READER in clojure.core, then removing all direct calls to LispReader/read in favor of going through the Fn
15:52	Licenser_	but chouser when you implement clojure in javascript and I implement javascript in clojure we can run clojure code in javascript in clojure in javascript in clojure in javascript in safari!
15:53	G0SUB	odd, use of transients actually made the example code slower on my machine.
15:53	Licenser_	and then chouser we will rule the world!
15:57	cgrand	lpetit please use the future tense when talking about parsley :-)
16:02	chouser	Licenser_: heh
16:02	rlb	Is re-split probably the most efficient way to split a string at (a single) tab, or is there something simpler that might be faster?
16:02	Licenser_	Another question, is there a good way to scan a string to tokenize it?
16:02	chouser	somnium: that day already came and went. :-/
16:02	rlb	i.e find index and substr or similar...
16:02	Licenser_	I wrote a own function re-scan but I fear it's horrible ineffective
16:05	somnium	chouser: I was thinking something between clojurescript and scriptjure, 'browjure'? whatever it is it has to play nice with all the js libraries out there. Are you still working on ClojureScript?
16:05	Licenser_	http://gist.github.com/216251
16:06	chouser	somnium: ClojureScript's on hold until cinc
16:06	Licenser_	if someone want to take a look
16:07	Licenser_	sadly I don't think this will return a lazy seq :P
16:08	somnium	,(doc re-seq)
16:08	clojurebot	"([re s]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive matches of pattern in string, using java.util.regex.Matcher.find(), each such match processed with re-groups."
16:11	Licenser_	somnium: I know but that only works if you have one regexp not if you've multiple
16:12	chouser	Licenser_: you've considered combining your regexs using \| ?
16:12	Licenser_	yes that a) gets ugly and b) I don't know which regexp matched in the end - which isn't too good
16:13	somnium	Licenser_: if you don't like ugly best to stay away from regex altogether :-p
16:13	Licenser_	heh
16:13	chouser	well, you could combine them programmatically so you don't have to look at them all together. ...knowning which matched might to tough -- no named groupings in Java
16:14	Licenser_	I think java allowed named groupings
16:16	lpetit	cgrand: Oh it's was just an easy way to place some more pressure on parsley's planning :)
16:16	Licenser_	well no it does not seem to have
16:20	somnium	Licenser_: have you looked at partition and grep in contrib.str-utils2 ?
16:20	Licenser_	nope never heared of them
16:20	Licenser_	,(doc grep)
16:20	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.str-utils2/grep;[[re coll]]; Filters elements of coll by a regular expression. The String representation (with str) of each element is tested with re-find."
16:21	Licenser_	,(doc partition)
16:21	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as necessary to complete last partition upto n items. In case there are not enough padding elements, return a partition with less than n items."
16:22	somnium	partition is in core, not sure how to get the doc from str-utils2 out of him
16:22	Licenser_	,(doc clojure.contrib.str-utils2/partition)
16:22	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:23	somnium	,(doc split)
16:23	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.str-utils2/split;[[s re] [s re limit]]; Splits string on a regular expression. Optional argument limit is the maximum number of splits."
16:25	Licenser_	I will try to just run the regexp over the stuff twice, once to tokenize it and once ti determine the kind of tiken
16:26	somnium	clojure.walk is useful if you're building ASTs
16:27	somnium	so one day you can do away with rhino and script java through clojure back to java ;)
16:36	djork	raise your hand if you're using clojure-mode and slime
16:40	The-Kenny	raises hand
16:41	Dawgmatix	raises hand
16:45	jasapp	I am
16:46	eyeris	Is there any CSV stuff in contrib?
16:49	djork	how do you set up your working environment so that you can load files properly
16:49	djork	I'm not sure if that question even makes sense
16:49	jasapp	what do you mean load files?
16:49	djork	but I have classpath problems using slime and working on projects
16:50	djork	or just what are project layout and file loading/inclusion practices in general?
16:50	Licenser_	,(doc walk)
16:50	clojurebot	Huh?
16:50	Licenser_	,(doc clojure.walk)
16:50	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk
17:06	Kjellski	Can someone tell me how the regular expression escape for an uppercase character is? \u doesn´t work...
17:09	stuartsierra	[A-Z]
17:09	Licenser_	Kjellski: one so- what stuartsierra saied
17:11	Kjellski	okay... thanks... was just looking for the java doc... are there any differences?
17:11	stuartsierra	some; look up java.util.regex.Pattern
17:11	Kjellski	Thanks!
17:11	stuartsierra	welcome
17:11	rlb	In my case, I just wanted the fastest way to grab everything up to the first tab from a bunch of strings -- wonder if (subs s (.indexOf s tab)) is preferable -- have to test.
17:11	technomancy	djork: are you using M-x swank-clojure-project?
17:11	technomancy	C-c C-k should just work
17:12	djork	nope, no swank-clojure-project
17:12	djork	does that come with the whole kit?
17:12	djork	(not working on clojure right this second...)
17:13	technomancy	djork: you'll have it if you did M-x clojure-install
17:13	djork	oh ok, cool
17:14	rlb	Hmm, so (.indexOf s "\t") works, but (.indexOf s (int \t)) doesn't, though java has a str.indexOf(int character).
17:15	Kjellski	This is going to be an stream closed error, does anyone know why?
17:15	Kjellski	(with-open [rdr (reader text-file-path)]
17:15	Kjellski	(filter #(re-find #"[A-Z]" %) (line-seq rdr)))
17:16	technomancy	Kjellski: filter is lazy; so the reader is closed by the time it gets consumed
17:17	technomancy	either consume it inside the with-open block or wrap filter in a doall
17:17	Kjellski	doh ... thanks
17:18	rlb	(Oh, right \tab, not \t...)
17:24	rads	I'm trying out redis-clojure, and for now I've had to wrap (redis/with-server) around the forms in every function that accesses redis. is there an idiomatic way of abstracting that?
17:37	Licenser_	hmmm one problem I run into is that when using combined regexp it does not match in the right order o.O
18:01	Kjellski	I´ve got a pretty stupid question for you advanced, but I can´t get how to accumulate values in a function...
18:01	Licenser_	define accumulate :P
18:01	Licenser_	while I
18:01	Licenser_	'm not advanced I am always curiose!
18:01	Licenser_	and I really have trouble with the ' on the english keybard ...
18:01	Kjellski	1 sec... I´ll post an example of my function ok?
18:01	Licenser_	YaY!
18:02	Kjellski	,(defn read-with-filter [file regx]
18:02	Kjellski	(with-open [rdr (reader file)]
18:02	Kjellski	(let [result []]
18:02	Kjellski	(doseq [line (line-seq rdr)]
18:02	Kjellski	(doseq [line-char line]
18:02	Kjellski	(if (Character/isUpperCase line-char)
18:02	clojurebot	EOF while reading
18:02	Kjellski	(conj result line-char))))
18:02	Kjellski	result)))
18:03	jasapp	Try putting it here: http://pastebin.com/
18:04	Kjellski	uglyhttp://paste.lisp.org/display/89128
18:05	Kjellski	I´m trying to find the uppercase characters in a file ang conj them into a result...
18:06	Kjellski	That this doesn´t work is what I would aspect from immutable result, but how can I accumulate the values I need? I´ve tryed loop, but how to tailcall in nested doseqs?
18:07	chouser	Kjellski: doseq and for both do nesting for you, so you could say (for [line (line-seq rdr), line-char line] ...)
18:08	Kjellski	ups, the second argument of the function is not used anymoro...
18:08	chouser	Kjellski: both doseq and for also support :when which you could use instead of 'if'
18:08	Kjellski	okay? so the complete nesting could be removed with one for?
18:08	djork	Kjellski: (loop [coll []] (recur (conj stuff coll)))
18:09	djork	that's what I've found to work for building collections
18:09	djork	err, (conj coll stuff)
18:09	chouser	Kjellski: then instead of calling conj manually, the body of the 'for' could just return line-char
18:09	Kjellski	inside the if statement?
18:10	chouser	Kjellski: that'll give you a lazy seq of the uppercase chars, but since you're in a with-open you'd want to wrap your 'for' with 'vec' or 'doall'
18:11	Kjellski	Sure, but would there be a way to, just for educational purposes, "save" the state of reading in order to make it "lazy-with-open"?
18:14	chouser	Kjellski: when would you close the file?
18:15	wwood	I'm trying to setup liverepl on mac os x
18:15	wwood	http://github.com/djpowell/liverepl
18:15	Kjellski	^^ ... I know you would ask, for easyness, after the last value is taken from the lazy-seq?
18:15	wwood	liverepl.sh is looking for tools.jar in jdk home
18:15	wwood	but /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6/Home doesn't have tools.jar
18:16	wwood	anyone more clueful than I about that?
18:17	wwood	think I found the answer
18:17	wwood	tools.jar does not exist. Classes usually located here are instead included in classes.jar. Scripts that rely on the existence of tools.jar need to be rewritten accordingly.
18:17	wwood	from http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Java/Conceptual/Java14Development/02-JavaDevTools/JavaDevTools.html
18:21	chouser	Kjellski: yes it's possible (contrib duck-streams has such a thing) but it's a bit dangerous since normally failing to consume a whole seq is fine, but one of these seqs will leak filehandles if you don't consume it.
18:22	wwood	found it
18:23	wwood	under Versions/1.6.0/classes/classes.jar
18:23	Kjellski	Okay, but that behaviour is necessary right? If the duckstream keeps opened, the file handles state remains open and the lazy-seq will too... hope you understand what I mean... but a more important question, how have you found that out? What have you typed in google or where have you searched? maybe clojure.org -> api -> duck-streams?
18:24	Kjellski	I think it´s pretty hard to find informations with examples for learning clojure on the net....
18:25	somnium	Kjellski: browsing the source code in contrib is a good way to get familiar with the libraries (there are a lot, I know)
18:27	Kjellski	somnium thanks, that is something i´ve never tryed before ^^...
18:27	Kjellski	-y +ie
18:27	chouser	(doc read-lines)
18:27	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.duck-streams/read-lines;[[f]]; Like clojure.core/line-seq but opens f with reader. Automatically closes the reader AFTER YOU CONSUME THE ENTIRE SEQUENCE."
18:28	lisppaste8	foomanchoo pasted "Abtract Class" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89129
18:28	foomanchoo	Hi All
18:28	Kjellski	Hi foomanchoo =)
18:28	foomanchoo	learning (or trying to learn clojure) and hit a snag trying to gen class an abtract class
18:28	foomanchoo	it is in the above paste
18:29	chouser	foomanchoo: no need for genclass there -- just proxy
18:29	foomanchoo	proxy... ok, I will try that. thank you
18:30	Kjellski	thanks chouser, thats what i wanted to know... ^^
18:35	wwood	that worked!
18:35	wwood	liverepl cool!
18:36	Kjellski	Congratulations!
18:36	Kjellski	=)
18:38	rads	what's the simplest way to convert :foo to "foo"?
18:38	rads	(str :foo) returns ":foo"
18:39	danlarkin	,(name :foo)
18:39	clojurebot	"foo"
18:39	rads	thanks
18:40	hiredman	I have come to a conclusion
18:40	hiredman	ant is horrible
18:40	mtm	all build systems are horrible
18:41	hiredman	make is great
18:41	mtm	does it still require hard tabs?
18:41	hiredman	who cares
18:41	mtm	it offends my delicate sensibilities :)
18:42	authentic	clj noob question: has something like GWT been made for clojure?
18:42	hiredman	I am just sick in tired of ant rerunning everything when nothing has changed
18:42	hiredman	or not running anything
18:42	authentic	mtm: i'd say all imperative build systems are terrible, ant is full of do-this and do-that rather than make-me-an-X
18:43	mtm	true, true
18:48	Kjellski	Why is this(http://paste.lisp.org/display/89130) function giving me a seq over one element vectors?
18:50	hiredman	becuase you are using conj to create a new vector that contains one more element than an empty vector
18:51	Chousuke	for is not a loop
18:51	Chousuke	~for
18:51	clojurebot	for is not used often enough.
18:51	djork	hah
18:51	hiredman	and conj does not mutate vectors
18:51	Chousuke	clojurebot: you were supposed to agree with me
18:51	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:52	hiredman	clojurebot: laugh
18:52	clojurebot	ha ha
18:52	authentic	clojurebot: cry
18:52	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:53	Chousuke	Kjellski: You seem to have this silly notion that clojure allows you to mutate things. It does, but not until you've passed intermediate level. I suggest you prepare to rewire your brain entirely :)
18:54	djork	I was wrestling with this same thing yesterday.
18:54	cemerick	interesting, looks like transients aren't metadata-friendly
18:55	funkenblatt	authentic: there's clojurescript
18:55	funkenblatt	wrt a GWT-like thing
18:56	funkenblatt	dunno how complete it is though
18:56	Kjellski	Don´t tell me to rewrite my brain an forget to tell how ...^^
18:56	Chousuke	Kjellski: for generates a sequence, so you can just change the body of your for to "line-char" and you get a sequence of characters, appropriately filtered.
18:57	Chousuke	Kjellski: then you can use either (into [] (for ...)) or (vec (for ...)) or (reduce conj [] (for ...)) to create a vector of those characters
18:57	Kjellski	outch... THAT hurts... btw, today is CAPSLOCK day, isn´t it? ^^
18:57	AWizzArd	rhickey: please delete ticket 197 on assembla (count in hashmaps is already fixed)
18:57	authentic	funkenblatt: thanks, i'll have a look
18:58	hiredman	clojurebot: ticket #197
18:58	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/yh7w68h, :summary "Field 'count' not updated correctly for 'PersistentHashMap's when three hashes collide", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-10-15T19:41:24+00:00"}
18:59	Chousuke	AWizzArd: would just closing it do? :/
18:59	Chousuke	in fact, that's probably better than deleting it. just close as invalid or fixed
19:00	Kjellski	clojurebot: ticket #197
19:00	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/yh7w68h, :summary "Field 'count' not updated correctly for 'PersistentHashMap's when three hashes collide", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-10-15T19:41:24+00:00"}
19:00	Kjellski	...sorry...
19:00	lpetit	ouch what a spam on my emailbox !
19:00	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes
19:00	Chousuke	lpetit: from assembla? :/
19:01	lpetit	yeah
19:01	AWizzArd	lpetit: what do you mean? those 70 mails within 3 minutes? ;)
19:01	lpetit	sure :)
19:01	Chousuke	AWizzArd: Are you not a clojure contributor? If you are, you could just close it yourself.
19:02	lpetit	When Rich commits, he doesn't do half the job ! :)
19:02	Chousuke	lpetit: you can reduce the spamming to bearable levels from the preferences somewhere.
19:02	AWizzArd	Chousuke: nope, not snail mailed the form yet
19:02	Chousuke	heh. should remember those "fixes #123" in the commit message
19:02	lpetit	Chousuke: oh yes, I'll have to dig in the options of assembla maybe ?
19:03	Chousuke	AWizzArd: which commit was it fixed by?
19:03	Chousuke	hmm, b4095306ddc59c1a992c39369f06f1315b97d377 probably
19:04	hiredman	I heard contributors get a secret decoder ring
19:04	Chousuke	well, I marked it as fixed now.
19:04	Chousuke	enjoy your spam
19:04	Kjellski	Chousuke: Thanks a lot... actually I´ve saved the that above to my notes ...
19:05	Chousuke	Kjellski: the key to functional programming is recursion
19:06	Chousuke	instead of looping and mutating the value, you create a new value within the function, and then call the function again on the new value (and possibly other modified parameters) to generate the next value, until you hit the base case
19:07	Chousuke	the "loop" form, while not a function, is recursive like this too; you always need to "restart" the loop by calling recur with the new values.
19:10	AWizzArd	hiredman: when one wears the ring... is one visible?
19:14	hiredman	it is a metacircular ring
19:15	Raynes	The key to functional programming is a functional key. It fits in the lock upside down and right side up. I hear you can even insert it sideways.
19:23	djork	I read the Little Schemer last Summer, but I have a hard time applying it to Clojure for some reason.
19:23	Chousuke	Raynes: but curiously enough, once you turn the key, you will suddenly have two locks.
19:23	djork	I wonder why?
19:23	djork	s/read/did/
19:24	djork	Philosophical question: is the cosmos functional or object-oriented?
19:24	djork	Functional would mean a multiverse.
19:24	Kjellski	Chousuke : thanks for this decription... it brings me steps forward... as i keep reading the same sentences again and again... ^^
19:25	djork	Kjellski: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define:recursion&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (notice the "did you mean")
19:25	jasapp	djork: http://xkcd.com/224/
19:25	hiredman	djork: have you see the slides from rhickey's jvmlang summit presentation?
19:25	djork	I think I had them on my desktop for a long time
19:25	djork	glanced at them
19:25	djork	jasapp: yes, hilarious :)
19:26	Chousuke	infinite recursion is not very useful though :/
19:26	The-Kenny	There is another very good one about lisp, but I don't remember the name.
19:26	hiredman	awn quotes like "the future is a function of the present" or some such
19:26	Chousuke	of the past
19:27	Chousuke	and present is (deref universe) :P
19:29	Kjellski	Someone knows who intentionally said the notepad irc thing?
19:30	Kjellski	"IRC is just multiplayer notepad..."
19:31	hiredman	clojurebot: #clojure
19:31	clojurebot	clojure is far closer to perfection then python
19:31	hiredman	bah
19:31	djork	~clojurebot
19:31	clojurebot	clojurebot is like life: you make trade-offs
19:33	djork	clojurebot: python
19:33	clojurebot	python is ugly
19:33	djork	ouch
19:33	djork	clojurebot: ruby
19:33	clojurebot	Chunky bacon!
19:33	djork	Hear hear!
19:33	djork	clojurebot: Java
19:33	clojurebot	☕
19:33	djork	this is fun
19:34	djork	clojurebot: c#
19:34	clojurebot	I don't understand.
19:34	djork	neither do I
19:35	jasapp	clojurebot: lisp
19:35	clojurebot	"if you never learnt Lisp, then you never learned to program" -- some rant on some blog somewhere
19:35	Kjellski	^^
19:36	The-Kenny	clojurebot: brainfuck
19:36	clojurebot	excusez-moi
19:38	ambient	so, are there any clojure versions for the shootout? http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
19:38	hiredman	clojurebot: #clojure
19:38	clojurebot	this is not IRC, this is #clojure. We aspire to better than that.
19:38	djork	clojurebot: IRC
19:38	clojurebot	Pardon?
19:39	djork	ambient: I have never seen any, but it would be interesting to see how high you can go.
19:39	ambient	well, you could write non-idiomatic clojure and make it quite fast
19:39	djork	I mean the Java steady-state stuff is pretty much a total hack... and so Clojure would never get that fast.
19:39	djork	it would be interesting to see how idiomatic clojure fares though
19:40	ambient	i did my modular synth functionally, took about 5 seconds to render. imperically the same thing took 100 milliseconds
19:40	djork	imperically?
19:40	ambient	i dont know the word
19:40	djork	or imperatively
19:40	ambient	something like that
19:41	ambient	but the slowness might've been because of lazy sequences
19:41	djork	in Java?
19:41	ambient	in clojure
19:41	djork	oh, nice
19:41	djork	how much audio were you producing?
19:41	djork	(hopefully more than 100 ms)
19:41	ambient	2 seconds
19:41	ambient	88k samples
19:42	djork	k
19:42	ambient	but the whole thing's not done yet, so it's just a semi-micro benchmark
19:43	djork	so is it better to set up clojure to run with java -sever
19:43	djork	server
19:46	ambient	i'll tell you when i get to the point where it's actually relevant :)
19:46	ambient	performance-wise
19:52	Kjellski	is there a lazy "pi-digits" function in a lib someone knows?
19:57	mattrepl	random question, wasn't there a video posted of Rich Hickey's talk on time/concurrency at the JVML summit?
19:57	mattrepl	google isn't helping
19:57	Qvintvs	does anyone know of a gedit plugin for clojure editing?
19:57	Kjellski	... enough hacker-quests for today, good night!
19:58	foomanchoo	ah... to-array and into-array.. a bit confusing but finally got it
19:58	hiredman	mattrepl: not yet
19:59	mattrepl	could've sworn I watched it.. weird =) thanks
20:02	scottj	Can you define a stored procedure in MySQL over the jdbc connecting with clojure.contrib.sql?
20:07	somnium	(use 'mongo.config)
20:12	tomoj	wow, apparently you could somewhat easily write your couchdb views in clojure
20:13	The-Kenny	tomoj: Yeah, it should be pretty easy to write a view-server in clojure.
20:13	The-Kenny	(I remember seeing one somewhere on github)
20:15	tomoj	cool
20:15	tomoj	first I must grok couchdb
20:16	The-Kenny	tomoj: http://github.com/tashafa/clutch/blob/master/src/com/ashafa/clutch/view_server.clj
20:16	The-Kenny	(I don't know how advanced this server is, I just found it :))
20:18	somnium	http://paste.lisp.org/display/89135 <- any suggestions?
20:48	rhickey	hrm, the first graphic here puzzles me: http://fupeg.blogspot.com/2009/10/concurrency-patterns-java-scala-and.html
20:49	ambient	heh, nice graphics.
20:50	ambient	-s
20:53	rlb	I didn't realize that the jvm doesn't support tagged pointers (though it seems there's been some consideration of it).
20:57	Licenser_	I wonder how you can devide Code Correctly by Comprehend
21:00	Licenser_	How does scalar resolves the concurrency part task?
21:02	ambient	i parsed from the text that he meant coding correctly and comprehending are almost the same thing
21:03	ambient	so the "/" is not a division, but interchangeability
21:03	Licenser_	:P ambient I know no reason not to make fun out of it
21:08	Licenser_	rhickey: don't let the post draw you down, I is anything but scientific just an personal oppinion from what I can tell after reading
21:16	somnium	I saw on a mailing list that the Lift guy gave a presentation at E-Bay recently, maybe they drank the scala kool-aid while he was there
21:16	Licenser_	heh
21:20	rhickey_	Licenser_: it doesn't bother me at all, just puzzling - I think refs are a much easier thing to understand (managed variables) than switching to message passing, if you haven't been doing the latter
21:20	Licenser_	glad to hear that :)
21:29	Licenser_	so what surprised me most is that scalar is suppost to be faster then java?
21:31	somnium	can scala's actors be coordinated like clojure's refs? (for a consistent snapshot of the world)
21:32	chouser	not likely. actors tend to be more like Clojure agents
21:33	chouser	though with actors it usually requires a round-trip message to get their current state
21:33	chouser	I think this is true of both erlang and scala actors
21:33	Licenser_	on another note, comojure is darn fast o.O
21:33	somnium	in that case, it seems like the guy who wrote this blog is barely familiar with clojure at all, since he's comparing scala's actors with clojure's refs
21:33	rhickey_	no, he recognizes the coordination difference and notes it at the end
21:33	Licenser_	just for fun I ran apache benchmark against a simple website, it gets 180 reqs/s on my machine
21:37	scottj	Licenser_: a simple compojure website right? Have you done any similar benchmarks against simple php/apache or other apps?
21:37	Licenser_	scottj: with ruby I don't tuch PHP
21:38	Licenser_	not the exact same thing but a simple RoR is a good bit slower I think it was < 100
21:39	Licenser_	but again RoR does a lot of things like caching & stuff the compojure app is really stupid about it right now - no caching no nothing
21:43	Licenser_	wow after warming up its get to 250 reqs/s
21:45	devlinsf	Hey, does anyone know why there are 100 patches being applied right now?
21:45	rhickey_	devlinsf: just merging master into a branch
21:45	devlinsf	Oh, okay
21:45	devlinsf	Thanks :)
21:51	Licenser_	by the way, why did you people choose git over svn?
21:52	Licenser_	disclaimer: No I don't want to start a flame war about git vs svn I just am curiose since I often think about using git instead of svn
21:53	Raynes	Licenser_: Because Git is better than SVN. ;)
21:53	Licenser_	I heard that I just wonder what features are important for the decision ^^
21:53	The-Kenn1	Raynes: Simple answers are the best answers :)
21:53	rlb	Don't hear about too many people switching back...
21:54	The-Kenn1	Licenser_: Because it's decentral, you have the whole history of the project on your harddrive. Really cheap and easy branching is also cool.
21:54	Licenser_	that makes sense actually, I hate branching in SVN, or actually not branching but merging
21:55	The-Kenn1	Licenser_: You should try git. Then try forking a project in Github and you will never switch back to svn :)
21:56	Licenser_	heh I downloaded a few things from github via git, was nice and easy I've to admit
21:57	Licenser_	but I'm not sure if the 'fork everything' thing is in the end good, I mean do we really need checks 42 forks of clojure
21:57	Licenser_	while I agree that 42 is a very good number of forks
21:57	The-Kenn1	Licenser_: It's easy to merge back changes.
21:57	chouser	clojure was on google code svn for a quite a while
21:57	Licenser_	hmm so forks are like branches?
21:58	The-Kenn1	Licenser_: Yes. But a bit more than that.
21:58	Licenser_	ahhh okay, I always had the impression that forks are really forks of the project
21:58	Licenser_	I mean always
21:58	Licenser_	Usually when you read about a fork it means a copy of the project because someone thinks they can do it better :P
21:59	Licenser_	at least that is how I used it
21:59	The-Kenn1	They are, but git and especially github makes it very easy to merge back changes from other users.
21:59	The-Kenn1	Licenser_: Maybe they can. If the owner thinks that someone improved his project, he merges the changes back into the original :)
22:00	Licenser_	I noticed that rhickey himself had like 4 or 5 fokrs that makes 42 forks look a lot scarry
22:01	The-Kenn1	Licenser_: These are branches..
22:01	The-Kenn1	Forks are under the "networks" tab: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/network
22:01	The-Kenn1	(They are 41+1 forks :))
22:02	Licenser_	I see 4 forks from rhickey in ther
22:02	Licenser_	o.O I just checked rails has over 700 good greif
22:02	chouser	github forks are just a way to manage your own set of patches against a project
22:02	The-Kenn1	rails is a popular project :p Ruby is big on Github.
22:03	rlb	Licenser_: one key is that git makes all kinds of things possible that just aren't possible with say svn -- then you get to decide what you actually want to do.
22:03	Licenser_	I'll think I'll try git out for my next project just to get a feel for it
22:03	mudphone	git == ozmm
22:03	Licenser_	the console output of git looks a lot nicer then the one of svn :P
22:04	rlb	git provides quite a bit of mechanism, and you get quite a bit of freedom wrt policy.
22:04	Licenser_	^^
22:04	mudphone	you can get colorization of the output too
22:05	mudphone	and tab-completion of commands... and set up aliases... :)
22:05	Licenser_	yea tab completion is eays I fiddled that together for svn too, it was even completeing file names depending on the action you choose ^^
22:06	Licenser_	then again svn up, and svn commit is what I use 95% of the time
22:06	The-Kenn1	Licenser_: git will give you completion for commands, files, branches, tags and everything :)
22:06	mudphone	I suppose the killer feature for me is branching, painlessly
22:07	jasapp	somnium: have you gotten very far with mongodb and clojure?
22:07	somnium	jasapp: yeah, already used it on two projects, right now I'
22:07	somnium	jasapp: extracting a library so I don't have to copy paste anymore
22:07	jasapp	how are you going storing objects in mongo?
22:08	somnium	jasapp: one of the maintainers fixed a bug so clojure hashmaps go right in
22:08	jasapp	a bug in mongo, or clojure?
22:09	somnium	strings and numbers, vectors and hashes go in, object-ids are a special object, but they're not hard to coerce to and from strings
22:09	somnium	in mongo, the json reader wasn't storing nested maps, but he fixed in about 5 minutes when I asked
22:09	somnium	pretty good service :)
22:09	jasapp	nice, how recently was this?
22:10	djork	is a seq generated by iterate memoized or anything?
22:10	somnium	you can also teach the java api to serialize arbitrary objects, but thankfully in clojure we don't need this too much
22:10	somnium	jasapp: a couple days ago? the latest on github has the patch, I don't think he bumped the version number
22:10	jasapp	awesome
22:10	somnium	I'll probably put my wrapper on github once its a little polished
22:10	Licenser_	hmm that sounds damn handy
22:10	somnium	but the java api is pretty easy as it is
22:11	jasapp	yeah, that's what I've been using
22:11	jasapp	although, I've been using their json utils
22:12	jasapp	as well as contrib.json
22:12	jasapp	it's pretty ugly
22:13	Licenser_	one of the good things to hang out in the channel is that one can read up about new tech when others are talking abou it :P
22:15	jasapp	cool, thanks for the info
22:15	jasapp	I'll keep an eye out for your wrapper
22:16	somnium	jasapp: you don't have to use json, if you coerce everything to a string or number, you just do (doto (BasicDBObject.) (.putAll {"some" "random" "clojure" ["data" "structure"]}))
22:17	somnium	my library is just some config helpers and some coercion utils, maybe in a day or two? (want to finish it tonight, but I should turn off irc to do that)
22:17	jasapp	that'll certainly clean things up
22:17	jasapp	my code was ugly, but the queries were even worse.
22:18	somnium	I made some wrappers for those too!
22:18	somnium	right now just (fetch :mycollection :where {:foo "is bar"})
22:18	jasapp	wow
22:19	jasapp	well, if you need any help, I'd be happy to
22:19	jasapp	but it sounds like you've got it taken care of
22:20	somnium	my acct is somnium, 0.00001 up in a day or two? I'll be happy for contributions, I think it does really well with clojure
22:20	jasapp	ok
22:26	djork	so apparently (take 10000 (fib-seq)) runs out of memory
22:27	Licenser_	djork: give it more memory :P
22:27	djork	I actually meant to use nth not take ;)
22:27	Licenser_	teehee
22:27	djork	still trying to grok this lazy-seq generation business
22:28	Licenser_	I find it funny, I made a primes lazy seq ^^
22:28	Licenser_	not that I need it or it would make sense, but it was fun :P
22:28	somnium	djork: it sounds like its 'holding-the-head'
22:29	foomanchoo	a proxied class, with an overwritten method, can or can not access a protected field? (it seems it can not)
22:29	djork	this particular implementation just doesn't click with me, maybe someone could help explain it
22:29	djork	http://www.pastie.org/666176
22:30	djork	hmm, I think I prefer it like this now (edited)
22:33	djork	OK so lazy-seq just takes one expr and doesn't evaluate it until a seq operation is called on it?
22:37	somnium	,(macroexpand-1 '(lazy-seq (iterate inc 1)))
22:37	clojurebot	(new clojure.lang.LazySeq (fn* [] (iterate inc 1)))
22:37	djork	hah, nice
22:38	djork	that helps
22:38	somnium	er, bad example, iterate is already lazy
22:38	djork	:)
22:39	djork	,(macroexpand-1 '(lazy-seq (cons 1 (inc 1))))
22:39	clojurebot	(new clojure.lang.LazySeq (fn* [] (cons 1 (inc 1))))
22:40	djork	,(macroexpand-1 '((fn rfib [a b] (cons a (lazy-seq (rfib b (+ a b))))) 0 1))
22:40	clojurebot	((fn rfib [a b] (cons a (lazy-seq (rfib b (+ a b))))) 0 1)
22:40	djork	hmm that was not what I was looking for
22:41	djork	oh well I think I get it now
22:41	chouser	foomanchoo: proxy cannot access protected fields
22:41	somnium	,(source iterate)
22:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
22:42	foomanchoo	chouser: thanks. any ways to work around this?
22:42	chouser	foomanchoo: unfortunately. For now you'll have to use gen-class after all.
22:42	foomanchoo	ok... i can't seem to grok gen-class. any good examples?
22:43	chouser	foomanchoo: uber-proxy is coming (related to new new a.k.a. reify)
22:43	foomanchoo	cool, i might just create a plain old java class for now and move on
22:44	Licenser_	what the hell is reify doing? it sounds look food
22:45	hiredman	~google reify
22:45	clojurebot	First, out of 23600 results is:
22:45	clojurebot	Reification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:45	clojurebot	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification
22:45	chouser	that's not unreasonable. gen-class can do it in a couple lines to, but if you're comfortable with a little java class you won't be bad off.
22:45	hiredman	I think reify still doesn't let you create pedal to the medal named classes, which is kind of a pain
22:46	hiredman	you can instantiate and invoke Fns
22:46	Licenser_	" the consideration of an abstraction or an object as if it had living existence and abilities; at the same time it implies the thingification of social relations"
22:46	hiredman	which is how I bootstrap my reader
22:47	Licenser_	~help
22:47	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
22:47	Licenser_	hrm that was not what I was looking for o.O
22:49	somnium	I didn't know thingification was a word
22:52	Licenser_	well now it is!
22:52	Licenser_	wokipedia saied that (amongst other things) about rify
22:52	Licenser_	b
22:52	Licenser_	u
22:53	Licenser_	but it is right we should treat clojurebot better, he has dignity too!
22:53	Licenser_	or is clojurebot female?
22:54	hiredman	hmmm
22:54	hiredman	I guess I should add tests to clojure.test-clojure.reader as I find things I left out of my reader that the tests don't catch
22:54	Licenser_	I think we should rename ',' to 'Good day Mr. Clojurebot, could you please be so kind and evaluate <code> for me'?
22:54	somnium	I saw something about it being a bad idea to have functions in data, but what's the problem with having a map like {:fun-a (fn [x] x) :fun-b ...} ?
22:56	Licenser_	why is it bad to have functions in data? Isn't that one of the good things that of first class functions that you can put them in data?
23:24	technomancy	somnium: nothing wrong with that
23:25	Licenser_	hmm reading p about the mongodb thing makes me really curiose to try that out
23:25	somnium	technomancy: ok, in my current case I was having trouble envisioning an alternative.
23:26	technomancy	somnium: of course the person who warned you may have more context... you shouldn't put fns in a map if another alternative like multimethods would be more appropriate.
23:29	somnium	technomancy: I saw it in an old message on a mailing list. (couldn't find it just now). In this case its a hook for users to add predicates to a library.
23:33	chouser	multimethods allow for dynamic redefinition where fns in data objects do not
23:33	chouser	on the other hand, clojure.zip is implemented with functions stored in metadata, so it can't be all bad. :-)
23:34	technomancy	chouser: not to mention clojure.test... (though the reasoning behind that one escapes me utterly)
23:35	Licenser_	fuctions stored in metadata?
23:36	somnium	do multi-methods transcend namespaces?
23:37	chouser	somnium: no, multi-methods are rooted in namespaces
23:37	hiredman	multimethods are not names
23:37	chouser	I guess defmethods transcend namespaces, but defmultis create namespaced vars
23:38	somnium	defmethods do?
23:38	somnium	then that's a more elegant alternative
23:39	Raynes	Dynamic failcat fails at runtime.
23:42	jasapp	somnium: have you had trouble with mongo serializing keywords correctly?
23:43	jasapp	(doto (BasicDBObject.) (.putAll {:foo :bar}))
23:43	somnium	jasapp: it doesn't do keywords
23:43	somnium	jasapp I use clojure.walk to coerce members
23:43	jasapp	Ahh, I didn't realize
23:43	somnium	if performance is really a concern better to use strings or implement DBObject, but I like the pleasantness of using keywords
23:44	somnium	at least for the scale of what I've been doing so far
23:44	jasapp	Hmm, I'm not sure if it'll be a concern
23:44	jasapp	How large are your data sets typically?
23:45	somnium	in current case 100,000 records, but small number of users
23:46	somnium	premature optimization is the root of all evil :)
23:46	jasapp	That's what I keep telling myself
23:46	jasapp	I'll see how clojure.walk works for me