#clojure – 2009-10-10

2009-10-10

00:17	icey	i've been trying to get my emacs configured using http://technomancy.us/126
00:17	icey	but i keep getting errors stating swank.clj can't be found when i try to run slime
00:17	icey	i've tried on a couple of machines; is there something wonky with the current git versions?
00:47	qbg	So it seems like I get NullPointerExceptions after taking a sufficiently large number of elements from an infinite sequence.
03:13	LauJensen	Morning gents
03:14	G0SUB	LauJensen: Good Morning Sire!
05:48	namor	Wasn't there an online-clojure compiler somewhere?
06:02	ambient	,(+ 1 2)
06:02	clojurebot	3
06:03	Chousuke	,#=(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
06:03	clojurebot	System
06:03	Chousuke	hm
06:04	Chousuke	that wasn't what I expected :P
06:14	Kyromancer	,(repeat 3)
06:14	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
06:14	Kyromancer	oic
08:33	Guest92834	hmm... I have downloaded a clojure library I would like to use from my project. how do I do that?
08:35	fyuryu	Guest92834: the same way you would use a java lib in a project. Is this lib a in a .jar?
08:35	Guest92834	nope... it's a collection of .clj files
08:36	fyuryu	Guest92834: are they placed in a folder stucrure such as: some/library/file.clj?
08:36	serp_	fyuryu: yup
08:37	fyuryu	serp_: then you have to add the folder containing those folders to your classpath
08:38	fyuryu	serp_: that is, apart from having clojure.jar in you classpath, add "/path/to/folder"
08:39	serp_	aha let me try
08:39	fyuryu	serp_: then you'll be able to "use" and "require" those libraries
08:43	serp_	eh doesn't work... I'll have to read a little
08:43	serp_	thanks
08:45	fyuryu	serp_: I don't know how well are you familiar with java (classpath in particular)
08:45	fyuryu	serp_: how does the commnd with which you run clojure repl/script looks like?
08:46	serp_	I use vimclojure
08:46	serp_	and start the server with java -cp penumbra/src/penumbra:clojure.jar:clojure-contrib.jar:vimclojure.jar com.martiansoftware.nailgun.NGServer 127.0.0.1
08:47	serp_	then, in my file lol.clj I start with this: (ns lol (:require opengl))
08:48	serp_	there is a file named opengl.clj in penumbra/src/penumbra
08:48	ambient	perhaps just use java -cp penumbra/src and (ns lol (:require 'penumbra.opengl))
08:48	fyuryu	serp_: penumbra is the opengl lib, I think it needs some more libs (including native ones)
08:49	ambient	yes, you need to link the native libs too, eg. -Djava.library.path=c:\path\to\penumbra\lib\windows
08:51	serp_	ambient: is java.library.path different from classpath?
08:51	ambient	i dont know
08:51	serp_	ok
08:51	fyuryu	serp_: it should be: (ns lol (:require penumbra.opengl))
08:51	ambient	its just what i
08:51	ambient	ve used
08:51	fyuryu	without the quote
08:53	serp_	hmm got a little further
08:54	serp_	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: javax.media.opengl.GL2 (core.clj:9)>
08:54	serp_	now I got that
08:54	serp_	but I'll have to figure it out later... I've gotta go
08:54	serp_	thanks for your help guys
08:54	fyuryu	serp_: np
08:54	ambient	you sure you're linking the right binaries? 32 bit or 64 bit
08:54	ambient	it has to match the jvm
11:30	ambient	it's pretty cool what F# does how it gets core features of laziness, functionality and immutability included in core .NET
12:05	voodoomonkey55	i have a noob-like question for anyone willing to listen
12:08	voodoomonkey55	i need some help with the lazy-cons function
12:18	Makoryu	voodoomonkey55: What's your question?
12:19	voodoomonkey55	am i supposed to import some library to use it or is it in clojure.core
12:19	voodoomonkey55	?
12:20	voodoomonkey55	because I've written some code that tries to use it but it won't run, saying that it can't find the symbol "lazy-cons"
12:21	Makoryu	voodoomonkey55: It's been replaced by the more general-purpose lazy-seq
12:21	voodoomonkey55	oh ok
12:22	voodoomonkey55	could i use cons in place of lazy-cons? and how would i do that?
12:22	Makoryu	voodoomonkey55: Inside the body of a lazy-seq macro, just use cons where you would use lazy-cons
12:23	voodoomonkey55	ok
12:23	voodoomonkey55	i'll try that
12:23	voodoomonkey55	thank you
12:24	Makoryu	,(doc lazy-seq)
12:24	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls."
12:25	voodoomonkey55	oh cool
12:25	voodoomonkey55	that helps a lot
12:25	voodoomonkey55	thanks
13:33	Makoryu	Is there any reason (apart from "Java doesn't support it already") that the underscore can't be used as intra-token "whitespace" in numeric literals?
13:58	Chousuke	Makoryu: what do you mean?
13:59	Makoryu	Some languages (Perl and Ruby, for example) allow 1_000_000 for 1000000
13:59	Chousuke	I think it'd look weird and complicate parsing a lot :/
14:00	Makoryu	Nah, just stick with the existing "\d starts a numeric literal" rule, and add an "s/_//g" pass (whatever the Java equivalent of that is)
14:00	Makoryu	Since there's nowhere in numeric literals where underscores are already allowed, and the tokenizer already sees it as one token, it'll be fine
14:05	chouser	Makoryu: I don't think there's any technical problem -- it's been suggested before, but I think rhickey was uninterested.
14:06	Makoryu	chouser: Hrm....
14:08	kmurph79	i'm trying this while learning clojure: (map (fn [a b c] (a + b - c)) [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3]) i want it to return (1 2 3) but i get an error when I try it. help?
14:08	Makoryu	,(1 + 2 - 3)
14:08	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
14:09	Makoryu	Is that your error?
14:09	chouser	kmurph79: you need to use prefix notation for + and - too, not infix like you have.
14:09	kmurph79	yes
14:09	rongenre	yeah, fix the fn
14:09	kmurph79	ohhhhhh
14:09	rongenre	(+ a (- b c))
14:09	kmurph79	blah
14:09	kmurph79	haha
14:09	Makoryu	,(- (+ 1 2) 3)
14:09	clojurebot	0
14:09	kmurph79	whoa, clojurebot is cool
14:10	hiredman	~botsnack
14:10	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
14:10	rongenre	I end up writing python by mistake too, especially in arithmetic stuff.
14:10	rongenre	and I've been dabbling in lisp for like 20 years. I think it speaks to its usability.
14:10	Chousuke	hiredman: you need to bind read-eval to false in the sandbox-eval function btw
14:11	Chousuke	,#=(eval (def foo 5))
14:11	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
14:11	Chousuke	,foo
14:11	clojurebot	5
14:11	rongenre	,first
14:11	clojurebot	#<core$first__4158 clojure.core$first__4158@1a1644b>
14:12	Chousuke	hiredman: also, add alter-var-root and alterRoot to the bad form list :P
14:12	Chousuke	,hiredman.sandbox/bad-forms
14:12	clojurebot	#{alterRoot intern load-reader load-string clojure.core/addMethod eval alter-var-root def}
14:13	chouser	Makoryu: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-03-30.html
14:13	chouser	so apparently I'm remembering incorrectly
14:14	itistoday	Think i've discovered a bug in this documentation: http://clojure.org/functional_programming
14:14	Makoryu	chouser: Oh, awesome. Better remind him :p
14:14	chouser	Makoryu: we probably just did.
14:14	hiredman	hiredman.sandbox is so crufty
14:14	Makoryu	chouser: :p
14:14	itistoday	although could my lack of clojure knowledge, but isn't the variable 'x' not used in the make-adder function?
14:15	hiredman	itistoday: it is
14:15	hiredman	the value of x is bound to y
14:16	itistoday	hiredman: ah, gotcha, sorry, i thought that meant something else, thanks!
14:18	itistoday	is there a reason why let is used? I tried removing let and just having it return (fn [z] (+ x z)) and that worked as well
14:19	hiredman	it is an illustration of lexical scoping
14:20	itistoday	hiredman: i guess i mean to say, isn't removing the let still lexical scoping?
14:20	itistoday	hiredman: or is there some difference?
14:21	hiredman	yes, but there are 3(?) ways to interact with lexical scope, and the exmple illustrates all three of them
14:21	kmurph79	in the repl, how do I cancel a command?
14:21	Chousuke	kmurph79: you have to kill the repl :p
14:21	kmurph79	ah ok
14:23	hiredman	lexically scoped names can be cated by calling a function and using let, lexicallybound names can be captured by creating a fn
14:23	itistoday	hiredman: so, just to make sure (as I'm trying to learn clojure by reading these documents), I would not define make-adder that way with the 'let' normally, as that would be redundant?
14:23	hiredman	sure
14:24	itistoday	hiredman: thanks, do you happen to know of a document somewhere that goes over these issues? and stuff like gensym? for clojure?
14:24	itistoday	i know of a great scheme tutorial that has a section dedicated that stuff
14:25	itistoday	(this is the scheme tut i'm referring to: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-7.html#node_chap_5)
14:25	hiredman	you're looking at the clojure document
14:25	hiredman	clojure.org
14:26	itistoday	is there a section on it that i've missed?
14:26	hiredman	you are looking at the section on lexical scoping right now
14:27	itistoday	well it doesn't explain what it is, it just reference sit
14:27	itistoday	*references it
14:27	itistoday	i.e. it assumes the reader already knows about it
14:27	hiredman	"You can create local names for values inside a function using let. The scope of any local names is lexical, so a function created in the scope of local names will close over their values:"
14:28	itistoday	like i said... that doesn't explain anything
14:28	itistoday	it doesn't define what lexical means
14:28	itistoday	and it gives an example that you just said was redundant
14:28	itistoday	yet it doesn't mention that
14:28	hiredman	eh?
14:29	hiredman	the example illustrates the text
14:29	itistoday	so just reading that i would be under the impression to always surround (fn) with (let) to make it lexical
14:29	itistoday	.....
14:29	itistoday	points gun to head
14:29	hiredman	I read that, and I was never under that impression
14:29	itistoday	it doesn't explain what lexical scoping is, nor does it explain any of the issues with it
14:30	hiredman	shrug
14:30	hiredman	I don't see how the clojure docs should be responsible for teaching programming 101
14:31	Chousuke	http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html this might have a bit more detail
14:31	Chousuke	then again, it might not :P
14:31	itistoday	Chousuke: thanks! that was actually next on my reading list
14:31	hiredman	if you want to know what lexical scope is, wikipedia has an article on it
14:31	itistoday	hiredman: i'm not saying the clojure docs should be responsible, i originally asked where i could find a document that addresses these issues (clojure specific)
14:32	itistoday	hiredman: this scheme tutorial does a great job: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-7.html#node_chap_5
14:32	itistoday	but i was asking because it's scheme-specific
14:32	itistoday	referencing functions like fluid-let
14:32	itistoday	let*
14:32	itistoday	gensym
14:32	itistoday	macros, etc
14:33	itistoday	all of that stuff could be different in clojure, hence my questioning
14:33	hiredman	Chousuke: do you know of any lexical scope issues specific to clojure?
14:33	Chousuke	can't think of any
14:33	hiredman	↑
14:33	itistoday	heh
14:34	Chousuke	fluid-let is kind of like the binding macro I guess
14:34	Chousuke	which is another kind of scoping entirely :P
14:34	Makoryu	,(doc gensym)
14:34	clojurebot	"([] [prefix-string]); Returns a new symbol with a unique name. If a prefix string is supplied, the name is prefix# where # is some unique number. If prefix is not supplied, the prefix is 'G__'."
14:35	itistoday	so clojure doesn't have a fluid-let?
14:35	Chousuke	(doc binding)
14:35	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before. The new bindings are made in parallel (unlike let); all init-exprs are evaluated before the vars are bound to their new values."
14:36	hiredman	itistoday: check the api page
14:36	hiredman	or even better
14:36	hiredman	,fluid-let
14:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: fluid-let in this context
14:36	Chousuke	I don't know if binding corresponds directly to fluid-let but it seems similar
14:36	itistoday	it might be called something different, but yeah, binding seems similar, thanks Chousuke
14:38	itistoday	and if it doesn't, the tut gives the implementation: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-10.html#node_sec_8.3
14:38	itistoday	crazy macro
14:39	itistoday	that's something else i need to get good at, is writing macros. in newLISP they're f-exprs, which are identical to functions except the function arguments are quoted (aren't evaluated)
14:39	Chousuke	that's what they are in Clojure too? :/
14:39	itistoday	clojure has f-exprs?
14:39	Chousuke	except the result of the function call is evaluated.
14:40	ambient	wth are f-exprs?
14:40	Chousuke	no, but a macro is essentially a function that takes forms as parameters and returns another form
14:40	Chousuke	which is then evaluated by the compiler
14:41	itistoday	Chousuke: sorry, i don't understand what you meant by "they are in Clojure too". aren't clojure's macros the same sort as lisp and scheme?
14:41	ambient	im thinking of writing a lisp that doesnt have macroes, nor even lambda
14:41	Chousuke	ambient: it's not lisp then anymore :P
14:41	itistoday	ambient: they are identical to functions except the function arguments are quoted (aren't evaluated)
14:41	ambient	well it is if the language is homoiconic, nested lists
14:42	itistoday	ambient: newLISP "macro": (define-macro (my-macro x y) (println x " " y)) (my-macro x y) => 'x 'y
14:42	itistoday	ambient: vs: (define (my-func x y) (println x " " y)) (my-macro x y) => nil nil
14:43	itistoday	ambient: sorry, that last part should be (my-func x y) => nil nil
14:43	itistoday	ambient: (because x and y weren't defined yet)
14:43	Chousuke	itistoday: so when is the println call done?
14:44	itistoday	Chousuke: when you call my-macro/my-func?
14:44	Chousuke	that's not a macro then :/
14:44	itistoday	yeah i know, it's an f-expr
14:44	itistoday	newlisp still calls them macros
14:44	itistoday	ambient was asking what f-exprs were
14:44	Chousuke	itistoday: anyway, hm, binding is not quite like fluid-let I think
14:45	itistoday	Chousuke: what's the difference?
14:45	Chousuke	binding dynamically rebinds vars, not locals
14:46	Chousuke	say you have (def x 5), (defn foo [] (println x))
14:46	Chousuke	then (let [x 3] (foo)) will print 5, but (binding [x 3] (foo)) will print 3
14:47	Chousuke	the binding is thread-local, and only in effect within the binding form, of course
14:47	itistoday	Chousuke: isn't that the same as the fluid-let example? i don't see the difference
14:48	itistoday	sure scheme doesn't have vars (and i haven't gotten to reading about them yet), but the example results in the same values as the fluid-let example
14:49	Chousuke	itistoday: it says that fluid-let talks about lexical variables so I'm not sure
14:50	Chousuke	binding will as a side-effect shadow any lexicals too, but it's meant to allow dynamic scoping of global bindings
14:51	Chousuke	hm, the earlier sentence was a bit unclear :P
14:51	itistoday	Chousuke: yeah i'm still parsing it :P
14:51	itistoday	it's not a big deal though, i'm sure i'll get to it eventually and figure it out
14:52	itistoday	i think for now i'll just assume they're "similar" and see where that assumption leads me
14:52	ordnungswidrig	hi
14:53	ordnungswidrig	does anybody know about a validation lib for clojure? sth. I can use for input parameter validation?
14:53	Chousuke	itistoday: I guess the difference with fluid-let is that it uses the set! thing which works with lexical locals too in scheme
14:54	Chousuke	itistoday: but in clojure, there is no way to change locals :P
14:55	itistoday	Chousuke: so would it be fine to think of fluid-let as having "all of the functionality of binding, and then some"?
14:55	itistoday	i.e. it can be used to change locals?
14:56	Chousuke	well, somehow I doubt the changes are thread-safe like in clojure, but otherwise I guess that's right.
14:56	itistoday	right, yeah, they're definitely not thread-safe ;-)
15:11	poet	is whole-numbers a built in sequence?
15:11	poet	Clojure=> (take 10 (whole-numbers))
15:11	poet	#<CompilerException java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: whole-numbers in this context (REPL:5)>
15:12	itistoday	ok, why does conj behave different for lists verse vector? for a list it prepends, and for a vector it appends? wtf?
15:12	serp_	,(+ 2 3)
15:12	clojurebot	5
15:12	serp_	,(whole-numbers)
15:12	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: whole-numbers in this context
15:12	itistoday	,(nth (conj '(1 2 3) 4) 0)
15:12	clojurebot	4
15:12	itistoday	,(nth (conj [1 2 3] 4) 0)
15:12	clojurebot	1
15:13	itistoday	seems like a silly decision to me
15:15	hiredman	itistoday: it's useful, you can build stuff up recursivly using vectors and not have to call reverse when you are done
15:16	serp_	,(conj [1 2 3] 4)
15:16	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
15:16	serp_	,(conj '(1 2 3) 4)
15:16	clojurebot	(4 1 2 3)
15:16	serp_	,(5 .4)
15:16	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: .4 in this context
15:16	itistoday	hiredman: it's inconsistent, and i don't think that just because you can "do something" in some particular situation is a good reason to introduce this sort of inconsistency
15:17	hiredman	shrug
15:18	itistoday	docs for last also says it takes linear time in the api docs, really? even for vectors? and lists could be linear time as well if you kept a pointer to the tail...
15:18	hiredman	vectors and lists are different datastructures with different chracteristics
15:18	itistoday	,(doc last)
15:18	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return the last item in coll, in linear time"
15:19	hiredman	coll there should be changed to sequence
15:20	hiredman	the reason it is linear time is last operates are sequences
15:21	itistoday	weird...
15:21	itistoday	is there a way to get the last element in constant time?
15:21	itistoday	(for lists also?)
15:21	hiredman	no
15:21	hiredman	not for lists
15:21	itistoday	i guess it's not too bad considering there are vectors...
15:22	hiredman	,(let [v [1 2 3]] (v (dec (count v))))
15:22	clojurebot	3
15:22	itistoday	yeah
15:22	hiredman	hmm
15:22	hiredman	,(doc peek)
15:22	clojurebot	"([coll]); For a list or queue, same as first, for a vector, same as, but much more efficient than, last. If the collection is empty, returns nil."
15:22	hiredman	↑ there we go
15:22	itistoday	nice! thanks! :-)
15:22	hiredman	,(peek [1 2 3])
15:22	clojurebot	3
15:23	itistoday	so clojure has implicit indexing too?
15:23	itistoday	,([1 2 3] 0)
15:23	clojurebot	1
15:23	itistoday	,([1 2 3] -1)
15:23	clojurebot	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
15:23	itistoday	eh.. doesn't do that though :-p
15:23	itistoday	,('(1 2 3) 0)
15:23	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
15:23	itistoday	doesn't do that either...
15:23	itistoday	not very list friendly for a lisp
15:24	hiredman	lists are not functions
15:24	hiredman	they are associative
15:24	itistoday	neither are vectors...
15:24	hiredman	yes they are
15:24	itistoday	vectors are functions?
15:24	hiredman	sure
15:24	itistoday	docs?
15:25	itistoday	(news to me)
15:25	itistoday	(hehe, then probably most of what you tell me will be news, as i'm just learning clojure)
15:25	hiredman	on clojure.org
15:26	hiredman	since vector is a datastructure, I would checkout the datastructure page
15:27	hiredman	vectors and maps are functions of their indices and keys
15:27	hiredman	,([1 2 3] 0)
15:27	clojurebot	1
15:27	hiredman	,({0 1 1 2 2 3} 0)
15:27	clojurebot	1
15:27	itistoday	hiredman: thanks! "Vectors implement IFn, for invoke() of one argument, which they presume is an index and look up in themselves as if by nth, i.e. vectors are functions of their indices."
15:28	itistoday	although i don't see why implicit indexing couldn't be done for lists as well
15:29	hiredman	lists are not indexed
15:29	itistoday	yeah but it doesn't mean you can't use implicit indexing on them
15:29	itistoday	newlisp does it :P
15:30	Chousuke	yeah, but it's slow :P
15:30	hiredman	so?
15:30	hiredman	if newlisp jumped off a cliff would you?
15:30	Chousuke	it's better not to allow it so that people don't do it accidentally.
15:30	itistoday	hey, you don't have to like it, i just thought it'd be a nifty addition to the language
15:30	Chousuke	itistoday: but conceptually, it doesn't make sense since lists aren't associative :)
15:31	itistoday	hiredman: if newlisp jumped off a cliff i would not follow suit, but if it did it would be quite surprising behavior for it ;-)
15:31	itistoday	Chousuke: what do you mean by associative?
15:31	hiredman	they aren't functions
15:32	itistoday	neither are vectors!
15:32	hiredman	a map is a function that maps keys to values
15:32	Chousuke	itistoday: a vector associates a numerical index with a value. similarly, a map associates a key with a value
15:32	hiredman	vectors are maps with numerical keys
15:32	Chousuke	itistoday: lists do neither
15:32	itistoday	yeah sure, but this is just conceptual jibber jabber
15:32	itistoday	a list can associate a value to another
15:32	itistoday	you define the position in the list as the key
15:32	itistoday	and what's at that position as a value
15:32	itistoday	boom
15:33	itistoday	perfectly mathematically valid
15:33	itistoday	how it's done doesn't matter
15:33	hiredman	that is not a list any more
15:33	Chousuke	itistoday: mathematically that's equivalent to a vector though :P
15:33	hiredman	you can call it a list, but it isn't one
15:33	itistoday	Chousuke: yes, my point though ;-)
15:33	itistoday	hiredman: how is it not a list?
15:33	Chousuke	itistoday: but in a programming language, thinking that a list is a vector is a bad thing.
15:34	hiredman	it's no longer just a linear collection of things
15:34	itistoday	hiredman: really? then what is it?
15:34	itistoday	hiredman: or rather do you mean to say it is a linear collection of things, but can be thought of as more too? in which case it's still a linear collection of things
15:34	hiredman	it's a numbered linear collection of things
15:35	itistoday	yeah, just like a vector is ;-)
15:35	Chousuke	itistoday: that's the thing. a vector can be thought to be a list with no trouble, but the reverse is not true.
15:35	Chousuke	itistoday: indexing a list by position is stupid
15:36	Chousuke	sometimes easier than the non-stupid thing, yes, but generally stupid :P
15:36	hiredman	since the list doesn't have indexed access, you have to walk it to find the nth thing
15:36	itistoday	yes, i understand that it's inefficient to get to the middle
15:36	itistoday	fine, ok, i'll back off since clojure supports implicit indexing for vectors
15:36	hiredman	if you want indexed access use a vector
15:36	itistoday	and it probably uses them a whole lot more often
15:36	Chousuke	yeah :)
15:37	itistoday	:-)
15:37	hiredman	having a plurality of datastructures with different characteristics is a good thing
15:37	Chousuke	the list function is not very popular :P
15:37	Chousuke	using a vector is more idiomatic
15:37	itistoday	see, this is news to me, as in newlisp they're almost all you use
15:37	hiredman	functions * datastructures
15:37	itistoday	and actually, in newlisp, functions are really lists
15:38	Chousuke	functions are lists in the original lisp too :/
15:38	itistoday	you can actually do this: ((fn () (println "hello")) 0) => "hello"
15:38	Chousuke	wait, what, 0?
15:38	ambient	ehm, you can do that in clojure too
15:39	ambient	((fn [x] (+ x 1)) 0)
15:39	itistoday	,((fn [x] (+ x 1)) 0)
15:39	clojurebot	1
15:39	itistoday	hmmm
15:39	itistoday	why doesn't this work though:
15:40	itistoday	,((fn [] "hello") 0)
15:40	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--3883$fn
15:40	ambient	that doesn't make any sense
15:40	Chousuke	itistoday: you're passing an argument to a function that takes none :)
15:40	itistoday	whoops
15:40	Chousuke	,((fn [] (print "this works")))
15:40	itistoday	sorry, lol
15:40	hiredman	1 vs. 0
15:40	clojurebot	this works
15:40	itistoday	wait.. i've confused myself and all of you
15:40	itistoday	let me fix my newlisp example...
15:41	itistoday	(nth 0 (fn () (println "hello"))) => ()
15:41	ambient	clojure doesn't have call/cc though afaik
15:41	itistoday	(nth 1 (fn () (println "hello"))) => (println "hello")
15:41	itistoday	that's what i meant to do
15:41	Chousuke	itistoday: that's not exactly new.
15:41	itistoday	Chousuke: yeah, i'm not saying it is, was just illustrating that in newlisp functions are lists
15:42	hiredman	is newlisp compiled?
15:42	itistoday	no
15:42	itistoday	newlisp is a neat language though, i'm not bashing clojure or saying newlisp is better, just that it's nifty
15:43	hiredman	I just can't imagine that having good performance, even in an interpreted lisp
15:43	itistoday	and that i'm coming to clojure from newlisp, and that's why i was surprised when it supported implicit indexing for vectors but not lists
15:43	itistoday	hiredman: newlisp is fast as hell
15:43	ambient	what does fast as hell mean?
15:43	Chousuke	hiredman: the interpreter probably stores the original code somewhere and keeps an internal object for the actual function
15:43	itistoday	it's extremely fast for an interpreted language
15:44	itistoday	meaning, it's faster than most other interpreted languages
15:44	ambient	for all intents and purposes, clojure seems like interpreted language to me also
15:44	itistoday	and i've done some rudimentary benchmarks between it and clojure, and they were comparable there, but better benchmarks would be useful
15:44	slashus2	As fast as a pyroclastic flow rolling down a hillside. hehe
15:44	ambient	i don't see any significant difference
15:44	hiredman	clojure is compiled
15:45	hiredman	everything is turned into jvm bytecode
15:45	itistoday	yeah, there's a big difference
15:45	ambient	hiredman but the application development speed and the power inherent to the language is equal or greater than what interpreted languages have
15:46	itistoday	ambient: what?
15:46	itistoday	newlisp is fast because it doesn't implement some things that slow clojure and other languages down
15:46	ambient	it used to be that with interpreted languages it was nice to write code, but they were slow. high performance languages were pita to write code
15:47	ambient	but in today's world, i don't see any benefit in interpreting, unless one is just building up a new language
15:47	slashus2	itistoday: What slows clojure down?
15:47	itistoday	ambient: it's a good point, but actually clojure can't do some things newlisp can because it's compiled
15:47	itistoday	ambient: newlisp is very dynamic because it's interpreted
15:47	hiredman	itistoday: if newlisp has comparable to python, then clojure code written with an eye towards peformance should smoke it
15:48	ambient	itistoday i doubt that it's a lot more dynamic than clojure, very much
15:48	clojurebot	clojure is like life: you make trade-offs
15:48	itistoday	hiredman: i would bet that newlisp beats python
15:48	slashus2	I mean clojure can run a live REPL and allows you to inject new code into a running program. That is very dynamic.
15:48	ambient	python isn't exactly the fastest around. compare to lua instead
15:48	itistoday	slashus2: two things i know of are garbage collection and lexical scope
15:49	Chousuke	newlisp doesn't do garbage collection?
15:49	itistoday	slashus2: newlisp has no garbage collection and is dynamically scoped
15:49	icey	what does newlisp interop with? or what does it's library ecosystem look like?
15:49	Chousuke	what does it do then? :\|
15:49	slashus2	ahh... well garbage collection algorithms continue to improve, and given the benefits, I don't think that the speed is hit by it as much as you think.
15:49	Chousuke	the JVM's garbage collector is already awesome
15:49	itistoday	icey: it can integrate directly with C very easily
15:50	itistoday	icey: it's standard library is fantastic too
15:50	Chousuke	lack of lexical scoping worries me though.
15:50	slashus2	The performance argument against garbage collection is not very relevant anymore.
15:50	hiredman	I saw some papers by early lispers that said "hey, we have more and more memory, stop the world gc sucks, so lets just not gc"
15:50	icey	so you can drop to C for speed like you can in python, or java in clojure... is there any ecosystem outside of the standard library?
15:50	ambient	SBCL seems to provide the best performance/power ratio, only thing missing is library support :p
15:50	kotarak	If it has no GC it not interesting...
15:50	icey	that's a big concern for me when i'm writing software; i hate having to rewrite the wheel all the time
15:50	itistoday	icey: what do you mean "ecosystem" there are libraries written for newlisp, yes
15:51	itistoday	icey: not as many as clojure though
15:51	hiredman	clojure is not targeted at "scripting" either, it is targeted at building large software systems, the same niche as java
15:51	itistoday	hiredman makes an excellent point
15:51	icey	itistoday: like, say on any given day i need an html parser, some way to interop with tokyo cabinet, oauth interop
15:51	itistoday	icey: right, don't use newlisp
15:52	icey	itistoday: gotcha; thanks
15:52	itistoday	btw, don't let the dynamic scope and lack of gc put you off newlisp
15:52	ambient	hiredman although i might just use it for scripting, and thing it could work very well for that. i cant see why not
15:52	hiredman	so it's a scripting language with no libraries...
15:52	itistoday	hiredman: it has libraries, just not as many
15:52	icey	itistoday: do you have to deal with gc yourself? how does it free memory?
15:52	itistoday	icey: no
15:52	hiredman	itistoday: it really sounds like newlisp is a throw back to very early lisps
15:52	hiredman	which is ok, I guess
15:52	itistoday	just, hold on
15:52	itistoday	let me explain the gc thing
15:52	hiredman	dynamic scope and lack of gc
15:52	itistoday	in newlisp it's not like C or C++
15:52	itistoday	memory management is not an issue
15:53	itistoday	newlisp uses once-only-referencing
15:53	itistoday	ORO
15:53	itistoday	or, OOR, don't knwo
15:53	itistoday	heh
15:53	itistoday	anyway, most of the time data is copied by-value
15:53	itistoday	data passed between built-in functions is passed by reference
15:53	Chousuke	http://www.newlisp.org/MemoryManagement.html aha.
15:53	itistoday	yes
15:53	icey	chousuke: reading it now actually haha
15:53	hiredman	early lisps where typically dynamicly scoped
15:53	itistoday	data passed between user-defined functions is copied by value
15:53	clojurebot	functions are maps
15:54	itistoday	hiredman: yes, newlisp is new though
15:54	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
15:54	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
15:54	Chousuke	itistoday: that sounds fairly inefficient :P
15:54	itistoday	i know
15:54	hiredman	itistoday: if all its ideas are old, how can it be new?
15:54	Chousuke	itistoday: unless it's a functional language.
15:54	itistoday	just, trust me on this, it's fast
15:54	itistoday	the decisions to not have a GC and use dynamic scope make it fast
15:55	itistoday	you can benchmark it yourself
15:55	slashus2	newLisp appeared in 1991...hmm
15:55	itistoday	the author is not an idiot
15:55	itistoday	he consciously chose to forego a GC and use dynamic scope
15:55	itistoday	(and use fexprs instead of macros)
15:55	hiredman	I'm not saying he is, I am saying newlisp isn't very new
15:55	itistoday	the language is great for scripting purposes
15:56	itistoday	1991 is pretty new for lisp
15:56	hiredman	and hardly modern
15:56	icey	people who like newlisp really like newlisp. it just seems to have limited usefulness which isa problem for lazy people like me.
15:56	itistoday	newlisp has its niche where it shines
15:56	itistoday	i do not recommend it for making huge backends with lots of fancy libraries and whatnot
15:56	hiredman	itistoday: regardless of the creation date, dynamic scope and lack of gc make it sound very similar to the lisps that predated the lisp machines
15:56	itistoday	(which is why i'm learning clojure)
15:57	icey	i'm sure it's earned its fans
15:57	itistoday	hiredman: that's interesting to know
15:57	hiredman	I think scheme was actually the first lisp to popularize lexical scope
15:58	hiredman	itistoday: The Evelution of Lisp is a great paper to read, Guy Steele and Some Other Dude
15:58	itistoday	newlisp is very useful as a scripting language because of it's built-in library (which has a lot of stuff) and it's extremely small size
15:58	itistoday	newlisp is like... about 200k
15:58	itistoday	*200kb
15:58	itistoday	it's so small you can actually "link" your script to the binary and send it off to someone
15:59	hiredman	ambient: I had no idea that scheme was originally built to explore the actor model of computation
15:59	hiredman	~clojure
15:59	clojurebot	clojure is a very attractive hammer with a nice heft to it
15:59	itistoday	hiredman: thanks for the suggestion
15:59	hiredman	~clojure
15:59	clojurebot	clojure is not scheme
16:00	kotarak	Richard Gabriel was the "other guy"
16:00	hiredman	kotarak: thanks
16:01	itistoday	just thought it'd be a recommendation here in case you guys are looking for a lisp scripting language, it's worth checking out i think
16:02	itistoday	it beats the pants off using bash and the others ;-)
16:02	ambient	python is way too good for that for me to consider anything else
16:02	itistoday	ambient: yeah, i like python too, but i already know newlisp and don't have the time to learn python
16:02	kotarak	itistoday: speaking of scripting: did you try scsh?
16:02	itistoday	kotarak: no...
16:02	icey	you can literally learn a useful amount of python in a week if you know any other programming language
16:02	icey	erm s/week/weekend
16:03	itistoday	kotarak: is that different from tcsh?
16:03	hiredman	~python
16:03	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:03	hiredman	bah
16:03	itistoday	icey: yeah, it's very readable, but it has too much syntax, newlisp is more readable i think ;-)
16:03	itistoday	icey: i had to teach it to myself for a project due in my AI class
16:03	clojurebot	for is not a loop
16:04	ambient	python is basically pseudo-code with very little actual syntax imo
16:04	itistoday	icey: in 3 hours i: 1) learned the language 2) wrote a game in it for the AI class
16:04	icey	itistoday: i wasn't talking about newlisp, you said you didn't have time to learn python and I said it would take a weekend to learn a useful amount of it
16:04	kotarak	itistoday: scsh means scheme shell. http://www.scsh.net/
16:04	hiredman	~literal [7] clojure
16:04	clojurebot	far closer to perfection then python
16:05	ambient	python isn't perfect, doesn't try to be, and that's one of its strenghts actually :)
16:05	itistoday	python is a nice language, i definitely agree
16:05	kotarak	itistoday: has nothing to do with tcsh
16:05	hiredman	python has got to be one of the ugliest languages I have ever seen
16:05	itistoday	kotarak: thanks, that looks interesting i'll have a look
16:05	hiredman	I hate it, and I hate that everyone uses it everywhere
16:06	itistoday	hiredman: lol
16:06	ambient	that's not necessarily a very pragmatic approach to things
16:06	itistoday	i like it for how it's readability and relative lack of syntax compared with the other popular scripting languages like Ruby and whatnot
16:07	itistoday	but i love the concept of lisp - virtually no syntax. it's like heaven after years of C/C++ programming
16:37	wavis	is there a way to get the arity of a function?
16:37	wavis	example (if (= 0 (arity the-fn)) (the-fn) the-fn)
16:42	ambient	there seems to have been a way (:arglist ^#'myfunc) but that doesn't seem to work anymore because it exposed actual implementation details
16:44	slashus2	wavis: What are you trying to accomplish?
16:45	slashus2	wavis: You could overload the function to take multiple number of arguments and "dispatch" from that function to call other functions.
16:46	slashus2	(fn ([] (print "hi")) ([x] (print x)) ([x y] (print x y)))
16:47	wavis	,(apply max (map count ((meta #'map) :arglists)))
16:47	clojurebot	6
16:47	wavis	i think i just answered my own question :)
16:48	wavis	i'm trying to build a dumb repo which, when an object is fetched, will call it if it is a function and doesn't accept args
16:49	wavis	so as to allow some things not to be stored, but still be accessible
16:49	hiredman	that only works for functions created with defn
16:49	wavis	oh
16:49	hiredman	#'map is the var that the name symbol map refers to
16:49	hiredman	the metadata is stored on the var
16:51	wavis	this is true. actually my solution should be to use metadata anyway. so i can (put-repo (with-meta (fn [] nil) {:call-with ["one-arg" "and another"]}))
16:52	slashus2	there you go
16:53	wavis	:)
16:56	itistoday	,(def x [1 2]) (== x [1 2])
16:56	clojurebot	DENIED
16:56	itistoday	well, it would have said false
16:56	itistoday	why?
16:56	slashus2	use =
16:56	itistoday	i don't understand what the doc says
16:57	slashus2	it does .equals
16:57	rongenre	,def
16:57	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: def in this context
16:57	rongenre	,(doc def)
16:57	clojurebot	DENIED
16:57	slashus2	== is for numbers
16:57	rongenre	,(doc first)
16:57	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns the first item in the collection. Calls seq on its argument. If coll is nil, returns nil."
16:57	slashus2	, (let [x [1 2]] (= x [1 2]))
16:57	clojurebot	true
16:57	itistoday	slashus2: that's it?
16:58	rongenre	(let [x [1 2]] ) (== x [1 2]))
16:58	rongenre	er..
16:58	itistoday	,(let [x [1 2]] ) (== x [1 2]))
16:58	clojurebot	nil
16:58	rongenre	,(let [x [1 2]] ) (== x [1 2]))
16:58	clojurebot	nil
16:58	itistoday	== is for numbers?
16:58	slashus2	,(doc ==)
16:58	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums all have the same value, otherwise false"
16:58	slashus2	You can use = for numbers too if you want.
16:58	itistoday	so uh, i'm missing the point of == then
16:59	slashus2	It is the same as java's ==
16:59	itistoday	but doesn't java's =='s compare primitives?
16:59	rongenre	,(.intValue 3)
16:59	clojurebot	3
16:59	rongenre	Is it a weird autoboxing thing?
16:59	itistoday	and clojure doesn't have primitives right?
17:00	itistoday	so why would it have ==?
17:00	rongenre	(== 3 3)
17:00	rongenre	,(== 3 3)
17:00	clojurebot	true
17:00	slashus2	,(== (.intValue 3) (.intValue 3))
17:00	clojurebot	true
17:00	ambient	,(== (int 3) 3)
17:00	clojurebot	true
17:00	wavis	,(with-meta (fn [] 7) {:stuff true})
17:00	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException
17:00	rongenre	,(let [x [1 2]] (== x x))
17:00	clojurebot	false
17:00	rongenre	whoa
17:00	itistoday	wow
17:00	rongenre	that's surprising
17:00	slashus2	itistoday: You can cast things to primitives. Just like ambient just did.
17:01	rongenre	so object identity's a bit weird, huh
17:01	rongenre	,(new Object)
17:01	clojurebot	#<Object java.lang.Object@bade60>
17:01	slashus2	,(let [x [1 2]] (= x x))
17:01	clojurebot	true
17:01	itistoday	slashus2: where did he do that?
17:01	rongenre	,(let [x (new Object)] (== x x))
17:01	clojurebot	false
17:02	itistoday	ok, i think == needs more than the sentence that's dedicated to it in the docs...
17:02	rongenre	,(let [x 666] (== x x))
17:02	clojurebot	true
17:02	rongenre	Yeah, object identity's confusing me here.
17:03	ambient	(== [] [])
17:03	ambient	,(== [] [])
17:03	clojurebot	false
17:03	rongenre	Even the same object instances don't == to true.
17:03	slashus2	Just use =.
17:03	slashus2	=
17:03	itistoday	lol
17:03	rongenre	Well yes ;-)
17:03	itistoday	i'm just wondering wtf this =='s is...
17:04	rongenre	I'm just curious about =='s looking at. And is there unnecessary scaffolding being constructed
17:04	itistoday	you know, google won't even let me search for "=="
17:04	slashus2	It uses (. clojure.lang.Numbers (equiv x y))
17:05	rongenre	google's getting pretty cuil lately isn't it
17:05	slashus2	,(clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv 5 5)
17:05	clojurebot	true
17:05	rongenre	slashus2: thanks. So if I wanted to look at pointer equality, ='s the way to go.
17:05	slashus2	,(clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv [] [])
17:05	clojurebot	false
17:06	itistoday	,(let [x [1 2]] (= x [1 2]))
17:06	clojurebot	true
17:06	rongenre	,eq
17:06	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: eq in this context
17:06	rongenre	,eq?
17:06	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: eq? in this context
17:06	slashus2	Yes, because this is only checking for numerical equivalence.
17:06	itistoday	,(let [x (new Object)] (= x (new Object)))
17:06	clojurebot	false
17:06	slashus2	rongenre: All you need is =
17:07	rongenre	slashus2: = corresponds to java ==, then? Pointer equality, about as fast as you can get?
17:07	itistoday	i don't think so?
17:07	itistoday	i don't think clojure has java's ==?
17:07	kotarak	(doc identical?)
17:07	clojurebot	"([x y]); Tests if 2 arguments are the same object"
17:07	slashus2	It is different because == only checks for number equality in clojure.
17:08	rongenre	,(let [x (new Object)] (identical? x x])
17:08	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
17:08	rongenre	,(let [x (new Object)] (identical? x x)
17:08	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:08	itistoday	ah, yes, identical? is java's ==
17:08	itistoday	,(let [x (new Object)] (identical? x x))
17:08	clojurebot	true
17:08	rongenre	done. Cool.
17:09	rongenre	There's a certain level of 1992 in wondering if I should be using an emacs irc mode.
17:10	itistoday	thanks all, i think i get it, and i now know to simply not use ==. think they should remove it in fact to avoid confusion. ;-)
17:10	slashus2	It is probably faster for number comparison...
17:10	itistoday	slashus2: ok, that would be a good reason to use it.. if true
17:10	slashus2	But, looking under the hood, it looks like clojure.lang.Util/equiv just does an k1 == k2 sort of thing.
17:11	ambient	rongenre no you shouldnt, you should use emacs console, in which you would run screen irssi ;)
17:11	ambient	or was it M-x term i forget
17:11	rongenre	,(identical? 3 3)
17:11	clojurebot	true
17:12	slashus2	Because = will eventually call Numbers.equiv(k1,k2) if k1 is an instance of number.
17:12	slashus2	Probably little advantage.
17:12	itistoday	how do you use dotimes?
17:12	slashus2	to none
17:13	slashus2	,(dotimes [x 5] (print x))
17:13	clojurebot	01234
17:13	itistoday	gotcha, thanks
17:14	slashus2	chouser: Why does == still hang around? Is it the way the core.clj was implemented?
17:14	rongenre	, (identical? 3 (/ 6 2))
17:14	clojurebot	true
17:15	slashus2	,(* 1/2 1/3)
17:15	clojurebot	1/6
17:15	itistoday	ok, found some very interesting results
17:15	itistoday	check this out
17:15	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (== 3 3)))
17:15	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 190.169 msecs"
17:15	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (== 3 3)))
17:15	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 10.612 msecs"
17:15	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (= 3 3)))
17:15	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 449.279 msecs"
17:15	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (= 3 3)))
17:15	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 361.286 msecs"
17:15	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (identical? 3 3)))
17:15	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 569.936 msecs"
17:15	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (identical? 3 3)))
17:15	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 583.892 msecs"
17:15	itistoday	so.....
17:15	itistoday	identical? does not do what we thought
17:15	itistoday	it's the slowest
17:15	itistoday	== is the fastest
17:15	chouser	== is for numbers. = for all other value comparisons
17:16	itistoday	yeah
17:16	itistoday	but check that out
17:16	itistoday	identical? is super slow!
17:16	itistoday	why?
17:16	itistoday	,(doc identical?)
17:16	clojurebot	"([x y]); Tests if 2 arguments are the same object"
17:16	itistoday	see, wouldn't know that from the doc
17:16	chouser	hm
17:16	slashus2	chouser: I mean there isn't much advantage of using == over = with number comparisons, correct?
17:16	slashus2	= is very universal
17:16	ambient	in theory with copy-on-write immutable structures it shouldn't be that hard to do an equality test
17:16	itistoday	slashus2: there is, it's faster
17:17	hiredman	ambient: egal
17:17	hiredman	clojurebot: egal?
17:17	clojurebot	egal is http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
17:17	itistoday	why is identical? super slow? anyone know?
17:17	chouser	I believe == can work directly with primitive number types, while = doesn't.
17:17	slashus2	micro-benchmarks don't really do it justice with the jit and everything under the hood.
17:18	slashus2	chouser: Well under the hood = eventually calls Numbers.equiv(k1, k2)
17:18	slashus2	and Numbers.equiv is overloaded to support primitives.
17:18	hiredman	1d10
17:18	clojurebot	5
17:18	hiredman	sorry
17:18	chouser	yeah, that's it: = will always box its args. == can take many combinations of primitive numbers directly
17:18	chouser	(show clojure.lang.Util "equiv") vs (show clojure.lang.Numbers "equiv")
17:19	slashus2	if(k1 instanceof Number)return Numbers.equiv(k1, k2);
17:19	slashus2	Is called from clojure.lang.Util/equiv
17:19	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Util.equiv 3 3)))
17:19	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.Util.equiv
17:19	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Util/equiv 3 3)))
17:19	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 441.838 msecs"
17:20	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Util/equiv 3 3)))
17:20	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 327.715 msecs"
17:20	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv 3 3)))
17:20	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 219.285 msecs"
17:20	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv 3 3)))
17:20	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 11.967 msecs"
17:20	itistoday	,(time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv 3 3)))
17:20	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 10.613 msecs"
17:20	itistoday	you know what's fucked up? the incredible performance increase of running it twice
17:20	itistoday	even though it's doing the same thing 100000000 times
17:20	chouser	itistoday: that's hotspot for you
17:20	hiredman	it's called a JIT
17:20	ambient	why? it got jitted
17:20	slashus2	That is the jit kicking in
17:21	itistoday	yeah i know
17:21	itistoday	i'm saying that you'd think it'd jit it on the first call
17:21	slashus2	nooo
17:21	itistoday	oh, right
17:21	itistoday	"hotspot"
17:21	itistoday	gotcha
17:21	itistoday	i get it
17:21	itistoday	lol
17:21	hiredman	maxine compiles everything :)
17:21	hiredman	no interpreter
17:21	chouser	itistoday: but note you're working with boxed numbers in all those examples.
17:21	hiredman	but I can't get maxine to build
17:22	slashus2	itistoday: Run this on your computer compared to the other (dotimes [x 3] (time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv (int 3) (int 3)))))
17:22	itistoday	(dotimes [x 3] (time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv (int 3) (int 3)))))
17:22	itistoday	,(dotimes [x 3] (time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv (int 3) (int 3)))))
17:22	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 81.941 msecs" "Elapsed time: 2.726 msecs" "Elapsed time: 0.043 msecs"
17:22	itistoday	,(dotimes [x 3] (time (dotimes [n 100000000] (clojure.lang.Numbers/equiv (int 3) (int 3)))))
17:23	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 8.832 msecs" "Elapsed time: 2.599 msecs" "Elapsed time: 0.043 msecs"
17:23	itistoday	,(dotimes [x 3] (time (dotimes [n 100000000] (== (int 3) (int 3)))))
17:23	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 9.388 msecs" "Elapsed time: 2.644 msecs" "Elapsed time: 0.046 msecs"
17:23	itistoday	yeah == is that function
17:23	itistoday	,(dotimes [x 3] (time (dotimes [n 100000000] (== 3 3))))
17:23	chouser	itistoday: please consider running that on your own repl and/or pasting to lisppaste
17:23	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 192.242 msecs" "Elapsed time: 5.216 msecs" "Elapsed time: 0.045 msecs"
17:23	hiredman	yeah
17:23	hiredman	please
17:23	itistoday	sorry, k
17:23	itistoday	but that last result is interesting
17:24	itistoday	i guess the compiler figured out to not box it or something?
17:24	slashus2	It is a micro-benchmark, it will vary depending on the current computer load.
17:24	itistoday	still, these are consistent numbers
17:24	chouser	probably not. there's so much going on in the JVM, your real results are probably getting lost in the noise.
17:25	hiredman	clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
17:25	slashus2	haha
17:25	chouser	garbage collection pauses, for example, can make a huge difference.
17:25	itistoday	yeah, i'm just trying to figure out what the heck is going on here
17:25	itistoday	and i still haven't found out why identical? is so slow
17:26	itistoday	which means i don't really know what it's doing
17:27	slashus2	Look at core.clj to figure it out. It gives good insights to how the code works under the hood.
17:27	itistoday	slashus2: thanks, will do
17:28	hiredman	identical? is in RT.java actually
17:28	slashus2	Yeah, I just saw that.
17:30	itistoday	is this it: http://pastie.org/649805
17:30	itistoday	because if it is i'm still at a loss..
17:34	slashus2	itistoday: You would probably have to ask Rich Hickey about it. I wouldn't worry about it too much. The concurrency constructs make up for any performance loss in little things in the language. Overall it is very fast.
17:35	hiredman	I wonder if it just the difference between comparing Objects and primitives
17:35	itistoday	slashus2: k, thanks for the advice. should I ask him on IRC or send email to devlist?
17:35	itistoday	hiredman: java's == should be comparing primitives (memory addresses) no?
17:35	ambient	what worries me though that with simple processes in other imperical languages i've been able to get ~90% speedups but by using clojure constructs that seems way lower
17:35	ambient	in embarassingly parallel problems
17:35	hiredman	itistoday: by the time it gest to java's == the ints are boxed
17:36	hiredman	gets
17:36	hiredman	look at the method signature for invoke
17:36	hiredman	equiv ultimately unboxes before doing the comparison
17:36	itistoday	hiredman: ok, fine, but then why is = still faster?
17:36	itistoday	boxing still occurs there..
17:37	itistoday	on my machine it's over twice as fast
17:38	itistoday	sorry, i'll ask hickey ... if i see him on the channel i guess
17:38	hiredman	itistoday: I haven't checked, but I imagine = is distpatching to equiv
17:38	hiredman	where the numbers are unboxed before being compared
17:39	itistoday	i can't see how that would speed it up though
17:39	itistoday	as both box the numbers
17:39	itistoday	and identical? just compares the pointer values
17:40	chouser	identical? is about 10x faster than = for me.
17:40	chouser	oh. when the answer is false, anyway.
17:41	itistoday	hmm... i'm using the git checkout from git://github.com/richhickey/clojure.git
17:41	itistoday	alpha of 1.1.0
17:41	hiredman	it's possible the jvm has some kind of scary optimizer for primitive comparisons
17:42	hiredman	itistoday: what are you using identical? for?
17:42	itistoday	or... perhaps it's the other way around, it has some kind of scary inefficiencies in comparing pointers?
17:42	itistoday	hiredman: i'm just learning
17:42	itistoday	was experimenting with: (time (dotimes [n 100000000] (identical? 3 3)))
17:43	itistoday	wanted to see the various comparison functions in clojure and what the differences were
17:43	hiredman	so you aren't actaully doing anything with it
17:44	itistoday	i'm not "actually doing" anything with clojure yet, but i hope to
17:44	itistoday	and it seems like identical? could be a very useful function to know about
17:44	hiredman	not really
17:44	Chousuke	it is useful, but it's mostly for optimisation
17:44	itistoday	well, comparing things for equivalency is pretty common
17:44	hiredman	I don't thing I've ever used it
17:44	hiredman	itistoday: that is what = is for
17:45	Chousuke	,(identical 3 3)
17:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: identical in this context
17:45	Chousuke	,(identical? 3 3)
17:45	clojurebot	true
17:45	Chousuke	,(identical? 3 (long 3))
17:45	clojurebot	false
17:45	Chousuke	you need to be very careful with it.
17:45	chouser	,(identical? 3 (Integer. "3"))
17:45	clojurebot	false
17:45	itistoday	,(identical? 3 (int 3))
17:45	clojurebot	true
17:45	itistoday	Chousuke: i know
17:45	hiredman	clojurebot's source and the checkout of ring I have laying around both don't have any any calls to identical?
17:46	hiredman	compojure is also free of calls to identical?
17:46	chouser	I've sometimes used == instead of = for optimization, but never resorted to 'identical?'
17:46	chouser	I think I've only ever used 'identical?' for sentinel comparisons.
17:46	itistoday	i just saw hickey use it in his talk on sequences, so that's where i know of it
17:47	Chousuke	hmm
17:47	hiredman	well, that must be the only place it's used
17:47	Chousuke	,(identical? :foo (keyword "foo"))
17:47	clojurebot	true
17:47	itistoday	lol
17:47	Chousuke	I think that's guaranteed :)
17:47	Chousuke	so identical? should be okay for keyword comparisons at least.
17:48	hiredman	but why?
17:48	itistoday	they're singletons?
17:48	kotarak	= does a == anyway?
17:48	itistoday	kotarak: no
17:48	itistoday	== is for numbers, it calls something else
17:48	hiredman	itistoday: not why is that true, why bother to use identical? on keywords?
17:48	kotarak	itistoday: I mean the Java ==
17:48	itistoday	hiredman: ah
17:48	chouser	,(let [not-found (Object.)] (if (identical? not-found (get {:a nil :b false :c 1} :d not-found)) "not found" "found it"))
17:48	clojurebot	"not found"
17:49	itistoday	kotarak: = calls .equals
17:49	itistoday	newbie question: what does (Object.) mean?
17:49	hiredman	clojurebot: new
17:49	clojurebot	new Class(x) is (Class. x)
17:49	itistoday	ah, shorthand for (new Class)?
17:49	Chousuke	yeah
17:49	itistoday	k thanks
17:52	kotarak	itistoday: The first thing = does in Util/equiv is checking Java ==
17:53	mrpika	what's the difference between symbols and keywords?
17:53	mrpika	aren't they pretty much the same thing?
17:53	kotarak	mrpika: keywords evaluate to themselves
17:53	kotarak	,:foo
17:53	clojurebot	:foo
17:53	kotarak	,foo
17:53	Chousuke	also you can have multiple instances of the same symbol
17:53	clojurebot	5
17:53	Chousuke	kotarak: haha, got lucky.
17:53	kotarak	And hence Symbols can carry metadata, while keywords cannot
17:54	mrpika	what's the significance of having multiple instances?
17:54	kotarak	mrpika: metadata
17:54	mrpika	and as for the self-evaluation, why not just get friendly with the quote?
17:54	hiredman	,(prn 'f)
17:54	clojurebot	f
17:54	hiredman	^- how do you read that back in?
17:54	Chousuke	mrpika: it's not as nice if you're using keywords as map keys :)
17:55	kotarak	mrpika: print a keyword and read it back, you get the same. Read with hiredman does and see the problem with Symbols.
17:55	itistoday	kotarak: thanks, didn't know that. (though i thought you meant clojure's ==, not java's ==)
17:55	Chousuke	actually
17:55	Chousuke	,(read-string "f")
17:55	clojurebot	f
17:55	Chousuke	is there a problem? :)
17:55	kotarak	itistoday: I tried to clarify that...
17:55	mrpika	okay
17:55	mrpika	i see the point
17:56	mrpika	thanks, been wondering about that for a while
17:56	itistoday	kotarak: ah, i see that, sorry! :P
17:56	mrpika	i've never seen a keyword in scheme
17:56	Chousuke	mrpika: I guess keywords are mostly a convenience
17:56	kotarak	mrpika: there are no keywords in Scheme.
17:57	Chousuke	mrpika: you could do without them, but why should you. they're great for maps
17:57	mrpika	i know, that's why i wondered about the usage in lisp
17:58	hiredman	common lisp has them, I think
17:58	mrpika	yeah
18:01	itistoday	hey i just found something really cool, check this out:
18:01	itistoday	,(def x =)
18:01	clojurebot	DENIED
18:01	itistoday	arg!!
18:01	Chousuke	heh
18:02	Chousuke	,#=(def x #=(eval =))
18:02	clojurebot	EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
18:02	Chousuke	ooh, yay
18:02	Chousuke	it's fixed.
18:03	Chousuke	itistoday: so what's cool?
18:03	itistoday	,(x = x)
18:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context
18:03	itistoday	,(def x =)
18:03	clojurebot	DENIED
18:03	itistoday	eh
18:03	Chousuke	heh :P
18:03	itistoday	you get the idea ;-)
18:04	itistoday	or (= x =) ; <-- TIE fighter
18:05	mrpika	(let [x =] (x = x))
18:05	mrpika	,(let [x =] (x = x))
18:05	clojurebot	true
18:05	itistoday	thanks :-)
18:05	itistoday	shoulda seen that
18:05	mrpika	np
18:05	itistoday	Chousuke: what did you do there? #=(def x #=(eval =))
18:06	itistoday	can't figure it out from here http://clojure.org/reader
18:08	itistoday	um... what would happen if i typed ,(while true)?
18:08	itistoday	would clojurebot die?
18:09	itistoday	if anyone doesn't want me to type ,(while true) speak now or forever hold your peace
18:09	whoppix	itistoday, it's most likely secured against that kind of simple attack :)
18:09	itistoday	let's see...
18:09	itistoday	,(while true)
18:09	itistoday	,(+ 1 1)
18:09	mrpika	is there an admin that can restart it
18:09	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
18:09	mrpika	?
18:09	clojurebot	2
18:09	itistoday	oh nice
18:09	mrpika	nice
18:10	mrpika	long running fuctions prohibited
18:10	mrpika	functions
18:10	whoppix	itistoday, most eval bots of that kind fork off, cage the process in a chroot/jail/vm, restrict it's filehandle/ptrace it, put an alarm to kill it after a while, something more tricky like that.
18:10	itistoday	whoppix: thanks, good to know
18:11	whoppix	itistoday, have a stab at buubot in #buubot, it evals about 20 different languages (not clojure yet, though)
18:11	itistoday	whoppix: it auto-detects the language?
18:12	whoppix	itistoday, nope, you have to tell it what language you want.
18:12	itistoday	gotcha
18:12	itistoday	will do some other time, gotta get back to reading clojure docs
18:12	whoppix	Have fun
18:12	itistoday	will do
18:14	mrpika	would there be any value in having a reader macro for dosync
18:14	mrpika	so instead of (dosync alter ...) you could just type %(alter ...)
18:14	mrpika	?
18:14	mrpika	or similar
18:15	Chousuke	mrpika: often dosync contains multiple expressions so a reader macro like that wouldn't be very useful
18:15	Chousuke	and I don't think dosync is so special that it needs a reader macro :)
18:15	mrpika	ah
18:33	Luyt	I guess that as easy it is to use java libraries from within clojure, it's also easy to use clojure functions from java?
18:34	javajeff	Lyut - there are some examples of calling clojure from Groovy at http://groovy.codehaus.org/Calling+Clojure+from+Groovy
18:34	itistoday	how does class? work?
18:35	itistoday	,(doc class?)
18:35	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is an instance of Class"
18:35	itistoday	what class..?
18:35	itistoday	clojurebot: class
18:35	clojurebot	To use an inner class Foo.Bar, import it with (import 'Foo$Bar), and you can refer to the class as Foo$Bar
18:36	faux	,(class 123)
18:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
18:37	itistoday	not class but class?
18:37	itistoday	heh, that sounds funny if you read it as a question
18:37	Luyt	javajeff: Thanks for the pointer.
18:38	faux	ah well that would be a comparison to the class Class
18:41	itistoday	faux: ah thanks, how do you do instanceof?
18:42	kylesmith	does anyone know the status of the rdf stuff?
18:43	faux	itistoday: look at isa?
18:43	itistoday	faux: thanks
18:44	itistoday	that looks like it
18:45	kotarak	(doc instance?)
18:45	clojurebot	"([c x]); Evaluates x and tests if it is an instance of the class c. Returns true or false"
18:45	kotarak	,(instance? String "foo")
18:45	clojurebot	true
18:45	kotarak	,(isa? String "foo")
18:45	clojurebot	false
18:46	kotarak	,(isa? String (type "foo"))
18:46	clojurebot	true
18:46	itistoday	:-), i was just about to say...
18:47	faux	much better
18:48	itistoday	,ints
18:48	clojurebot	#<core$ints__6041 clojure.core$ints__6041@100e398>
18:48	itistoday	err
18:48	itistoday	,(doc ints)
18:48	clojurebot	"([xs]); Casts to int[]"
18:48	itistoday	how do you use that?
18:48	Luyt	,(doc doc)
18:48	clojurebot	"([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name"
18:51	kotarak	,(ints (to-array [1 2 3]))
18:51	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: [Ljava.lang.Object; cannot be cast to [I
18:52	kotarak	,(ints (into-array Integer [1 2 3]))
18:52	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: [Ljava.lang.Integer; cannot be cast to [I
18:52	kotarak	hmmm...
18:52	kotarak	,(ints (into-array Integer/TYPE [1 2 3]))
18:52	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@1347991>
18:52	Luyt	,(println (str "codepad" "." "org"))
18:53	clojurebot	codepad.org
18:53	itistoday	kotarak: and then what do you do with the output of ints?
18:54	kotarak	itistoday: (defn foo [x] (let [x (ints x)] ...)) ... (foo (into-array Integer/TYPE [ 12 3])) might be a use
18:54	hiredman	~performance
18:54	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc46
18:54	kotarak	itistoday: ints avoids boxing in tight loops.
18:56	itistoday	ah gotcha
18:56	itistoday	hiredman: thanks
18:56	itistoday	so aget is what i was looking for
18:56	itistoday	,(doc aget)
18:56	clojurebot	"([array idx] [array idx & idxs]); Returns the value at the index/indices. Works on Java arrays of all types."
18:57	itistoday	peace all
22:09	icey	so have any of you guys switched over to using clojure as your primary web stack yet?
22:51	solussd	I'm trying to configure a clojure dev environment in emacs using 'M-x clojure-install'. After it sets everything up and I run "M-x slime" it works, until I restart emacs. Any suggestions?
22:52	tomoj	did you add the stuff to your .emacs?
22:57	solussd	what is "the stuff"? :)
23:07	solussd	The wiki (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Getting_Started#Emacs_.2F_inferior-lisp) doesn't talk about adding anything to my .emacs when using 'clojure-install'.
23:16	arbscht	solussd: supposedly, when clojure-install completes, it will give you some instructions on what to add to your emacs init file
23:17	solussd	I'll run the install again and see if I can catch that.
23:18	arbscht	"Add a call to \"$clojure-slime-config$\"
23:18	arbscht	to your .emacs so you can use SLIME in future sessions."
23:18	arbscht	something like that
23:23	solussd	yep. that was it. thanks!
23:24	solussd	One more question- I'm still not able to "C-c C-e" to evaluate a line. When I run that I get "Slime Eval:" instead of it running the sexp in the repl
23:24	arbscht	C-c C-c to evaluate a top level form
23:25	arbscht	well, compile and eval
23:25	arbscht	well, compile and eval are different
23:25	arbscht	typically you compile from a buffer and eval in a repl
23:27	solussd	I'd like to have the behavior rich hickley has set up in emacs- where he evaluates a line in this source file in the repl by hitting a key combination
23:27	arbscht	C-M-x will eval a top level form
23:29	solussd	excellent. thanks again
23:29	arbscht	C-x C-e will eval the last expression
23:30	solussd	ah, that's what i was looking for