#clojure – 2009-09-23

2009-09-23

00:00	hiredman	I don't see how that would require a useless parameter
00:00	mabes\|away	how do I get the length of a list in clojure? (find-doc "length") isn't helpful.. Is length defined in some lib in clojure-contrib?
00:00	hiredman	,(doc count)
00:00	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns the number of items in the collection. (count nil) returns 0. Also works on strings, arrays, and Java Collections and Maps"
00:00	killy971	mabes\|away: > count
00:01	mabes	ok.. coming from scheme so I expected length. thanks :)
00:01	killy971	hiredman: do you know project euler?
00:01	hiredman	I am aware of it
00:01	killy971	problem 214
00:02	hiredman	I think it would help if you explained what you mean by dynamic programming first
00:02	killy971	it is basically about computing phi, and phi again on the result of primes upto to a certain limit
00:02	killy971	so
00:02	killy971	I have a function which compute the length of a chain
00:03	hiredman	~euler
00:03	clojurebot	euler is http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/
00:03	mabes	what is the general rule for deciding to use a vector vs. a list in clojure? In my case I'm dealing with integers.. is a vector a better fit for that and why?
00:03	hiredman	it might help you to get a feel for clojure code if you looked over some of the solutions there
00:03	killy971	then, I would like to check if the chain length for a certain number has already been computed
00:04	hiredman	mabes: do you require fast indexed access? if so a vector, if not, a list
00:05	mabes	hiredman: ok, so if I'm just iterating over them then a list is the best fit. Thanks.
00:06	hiredman	killy971: sounds like a job for reduce
00:07	hiredman	you have a map which is a cache, and you would like to reduce a list of numbers to entries in the cache
00:07	killy971	I see
00:08	killy971	I am going to try this
00:08	killy971	thanks
00:08	hiredman	conviently enough, reduce used in this fashion will work with or without transients
00:09	hiredman	clojurebot: transient?
00:09	clojurebot	excusez-moi
00:10	hiredman	clojurebot: transients?
00:10	clojurebot	No entiendo
00:10	hiredman	clojurebot: transients is <reply>http://clojure.org/transients
00:10	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
00:16	technomancy	killy971: you shouldn't be using transients unless you've already written a non-transient version of the same code, profiled it, and found it to be a bottleneck
00:16	hiredman	↑
00:16	killy971	well, I was trying it for the first time as it seemed convenient...
00:16	killy971	but I know I shouldn't use this
00:17	killy971	in the first place
00:33	mabes	when I want to define a helper function in another function is the best way to do so is with let? (this is what I did: http://github.com/bmabey/sicp-study/commit/1306fe6a76968e28bbd36df5e79e0edf56ee7696)
01:10	wooby	hello, i'm new and looking for cool web app clojure stuff... i saw compojure, are there other projects of note?
01:12	mikem	wooby: there's also conjure: http://github.com/macourtney/Conjure
01:12	wooby	mikem: thanks i'll check it out
01:14	wooby	oh, i'm in the middle of that guy's book
01:14	wooby	err nevermind
01:45	dnolen	is there a way to say that an fn is synchronized for a Java primitive parameter/object as you can for methods in java?
01:51	cgrand	~locking
01:51	clojurebot	No entiendo
01:51	cgrand	,(doc locking)
01:51	clojurebot	"([x & body]); Executes exprs in an implicit do, while holding the monitor of x. Will release the monitor of x in all circumstances."
01:51	cgrand	dnolen: that's the closer thiing I can think of
01:53	dnolen	cgrand: interesting! thanks, so that should work pretty much the same way?
01:56	dnolen	cgrand: that's close enough. only one thread can enter that block of code. I guess synchronized syntax generates something pretty much like that.
02:16	licoresse	good morning europe
02:42	prospero_	,(= (keyword "a") (keyword 'a))
02:42	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.String
02:42	prospero_	hmm, that's not what I get at my repl
02:43	prospero_	anyways, the above returns true for me, but (= (keyword "/") (keyword '/)) returns false
02:43	prospero_	anyone know why?
02:45	hiredman	uh
02:45	hiredman	keyword takes a string
02:45	prospero_	I dunno, I pulled from github a few days ago
02:46	prospero_	it seems to not mind symbols
02:46	hiredman	I guess that changed
02:46	hiredman	anyway '/ is treated somewhat special
02:47	hiredman	I imagine it would not be allowed as a symbol at all (just as namespace seperator) if it wasn't for / as the division op
02:47	prospero_	right, I'm just trying to set up some rules for a DSL
02:48	prospero_	and while it refuses to read :/, it will take (keyword '/)
02:48	hiredman	for good reason
02:48	hiredman	in a keyword is a namespace seperator
02:49	hiredman	,:foo/bar
02:49	clojurebot	:foo/bar
02:49	prospero_	oh, ha
02:49	prospero_	that makes sense
02:49	hiredman	,(namespace :foo/bar)
02:49	clojurebot	"foo"
02:49	hiredman	is special, so it is best not to use it
02:49	hiredman	er
02:49	hiredman	/ is special, so it is best not to use it
02:50	hiredman	(my irc client ate / the first time)
02:50	prospero_	like I said, it's for a DSL, so I don't have much choice, unless I don't allow division
02:50	hiredman	div
02:50	prospero_	every other arithmetic operator is a symbol
02:50	hiredman	:\
02:50	hiredman	,:\
02:50	clojurebot	Invalid token: :
02:50	hiredman	anyway, those are the breaks
02:51	prospero_	well, doing (keyword '/) seems to work fine
02:51	prospero_	is that going to change?
02:51	prospero_	am I just lucking into some implementation detail?
02:51	hiredman	~search ticket keyword validation
02:51	clojurebot	No entiendo
02:51	hiredman	~ticket search keyword validation
02:51	clojurebot	("#6: GC Issue 1:\t:validator as keyword arg for ref/atom/agent" "#17: GC Issue 13:\tvalidate in (keyword s) and (symbol s)")
02:51	hiredman	~ticket #17
02:52	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/nq6ef7, :summary "GC Issue 13: validate in (keyword s) and (symbol s)", :status :test, :priority :low, :created-on "2009-06-17T18:56:26+00:00"}
02:52	prospero_	so basically if :/ doesn't fly, neither should (keyword '/)
02:53	prospero_	is that what you're saying?
02:53	hiredman	yep
02:54	prospero_	I'm confused, though. It looks like the fix for this issue was already submitted
02:54	prospero_	so why is my workaround still working?
02:55	hiredman	there is a patch for testing
02:55	prospero_	which hasn't been merged yet
02:55	prospero_	ok
02:58	sfuentes	question: as i'm here trying to learn clojure I get the feeling that I'm writing code in clojure but not necessarily functional code. My gut instincts is to remind myself to try to use map and reduce as often as possible. Is there a better approach to trying to learn functional programming?
02:59	hiredman	practice practice practice
02:59	sfuentes	i imagine that there is more to functional programming than just map and reduce
03:00	hiredman	well, use and write functions
03:01	arbscht	there are book, if you're into that sort of thing
03:01	arbscht	books
03:05	sfuentes	ok so here's my naive plan: code, code, read more about FP, code, code some more, read other ppls code, code, code ... etc
03:06	Raynes	A good way to learn functional programming, if you find it impossible to grasp it otherwise, is to learn Haskell. You'll walk away from Haskell all starry-eyed, and you'll be a new man. Clojure will look like a golden halo floating just inches above the top of a redwood stand waiting for you to pick it up and place it upon thy skull.
03:06	Raynes	One ring to rule them all...
03:07	arbscht	morning LauJensen
03:07	Raynes	:D
03:08	sfuentes	Well I did consider learning Haskell ... but I questioned how practical it would be.
03:10	arbscht	it's quite practical. however I don't see why you might not just learn clojure. you'll face similar challenges learning functional patterns in both systems
03:10	Fossi	it's a bit like learning lisp, no matter what language you code, it will teach you some
03:10	yason	sfuentes: in Clojure you'll generally find yourself having to do more work if you want to stay out of functional style
03:11	LauJensen	Morning arbscht :)
03:11	LauJensen	(and the (rest #clojure))
03:11	yason	sfuentes: nevertheless, there's no best way to learn functional programming: you'll get it eventually, one way or another, as long as you delve into it
03:12	LauJensen	yason: that statement is probably wrong - we just have worked out the best way yet :)
03:13	yason	LauJensen: there's probably always a best way for one person, but nothing that caters for everyone
03:13	yason	LauJensen: not until humanity turns into a horde of similarly wired clones, anyway :)
03:13	LauJensen	like I said, we're working on it :)
03:14	crios	hello. I think a good way to learn functional programming is to read the source code written by their power users, so that one can also study the "best practices" suited for that language
03:14	LauJensen	True, thats a good way to go
03:15	crios	therefore, I'm in search of a good code base. Do you suggest anything in particular, on "clojure-contrib" perhaps?
03:16	sfuentes	yeah, good examples of functional code would help
03:16	LauJensen	~def println
03:16	sfuentes	cause i feel like i don't know what i'm doing
03:16	LauJensen	sfuentes: Read that file, it's called core.clj, lots of good stuff :)
03:16	sfuentes	will do
03:17	sfuentes	its like i hear ppl talking about orgasms and not having experienced one
03:17	LauJensen	...
03:17	yason	crios: I somehow "got it" when writing C... I had been toying with Emacs Lisp for years but finally realized that if I pretty much inline everything instead of using variables, recompute them, and pass them as variables, then my C code actually looks like the code I had been writing in ELisp... :)
03:19	crios_	clojurebot: logs?
03:19	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
03:20	crios_	[come back from a Firefox crash]
03:21	crios_	mmm in the history I don't see the last sentences
03:21	crios_	could you re-copy the url?
03:21	Fossi	~def println
03:22	Fossi	it's just core.clj
03:22	Fossi	"just"
03:22	crios_	:)
03:22	pixelman	I'm looking for a good and clean way to replace keys in a string in clojure from a map, like "hello $bar" {:bar "world"}
03:23	crios_	~def identity
03:24	crios_	~def
03:24	clojurebot	defmulti doc is ugly
03:24	crios_	just trying "~def"
03:27	LauJensen	,(reduce #(.replace %1 (name (key %2)) (val %2)) "foo $bar baz" {:$bar "baz" :baz "bar"})
03:27	clojurebot	"foo bar bar"
03:31	LauJensen	pixelman: Clean ?
03:32	pixelman	LauJensen: thanks! I it's clean :)
03:33	LauJensen	np
03:36	crios_	anyone here use VI on Linux?
03:37	crios_	links on how enable clojure support?
03:38	LauJensen	crios_: Its quite easy "sudo apt-get purge vi* && sudo apt-get install emacs-snapshot && git clone git://technomanchy/clojure-mode"
03:39	crios_	emacs?
03:39	arbscht	crios_: I think this is a usable solution http://kotka.de/projects/chimp.html
03:40	crios_	ok, I'll give it a try , thank you
03:40	hiredman	~vimclojure
03:40	clojurebot	vimclojure is state-of-the-art
03:40	hiredman	~google vimclojure
03:40	clojurebot	First, out of 245 results is:
03:41	clojurebot	Kotka : Projects : Clojure : VimClojure
03:41	clojurebot	http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
03:41	arbscht	ah that's the one
03:41	hiredman	chimp is superseded
03:41	crios_	ok, let's go with vimclojure :)
03:49	LauJensen	I can't find the agent thing documented anywhere, why is that ?
03:56	arbscht	http://clojure.org/api#toc9
03:57	LauJensen	arbscht: thanks
04:22	LauJensen	Does anybody have a really easy-to-follow beginners guide for emacs/slime?
04:23	arbscht	LauJensen: there is a builtin tutorial. hit C-h t
04:24	LauJensen	I meant for setting up slime though :) I wan't something for non-clojurians who read my blog, so they can get setup really quickly
04:26	tomoj	just found this http://acidrayne.net/?p=39
04:26	tomoj	if you use the emacs-starter-kit it's really easy
04:26	arbscht	LauJensen: oh, I believe it's as simple as M-x clojure-install, once clojure-mode.el is installed
04:26	LauJensen	Great, thanks
04:26	LauJensen	Ok, even better
04:26	tomoj	yeah, clojure-install is easier than the manual thing I linked to
04:27	arbscht	LauJensen: http://technomancy.us/126
04:31	LauJensen	arbscht: great, really clear and easy to follow, thanks
04:47	sfuentes	what does & in an argument vector mean?
04:49	arbscht	sfuentes: the remaining arguments
04:49	arbscht	,((fn [a & more] [a more]) 1 2 3 4)
04:49	clojurebot	[1 (2 3 4)]
04:51	sfuentes	i see. thank you.
05:03	simplechat	heyyas
05:05	Chousuke	hi
05:06	simplechat	just as a question, on debian say, what would be the easiest way to set up a useful clojure environment?
05:12	LauJensen	simplechat: http://technomancy.us/126
05:19	crios_	I'm wondering how burden it is installing vimclojure. Recompile clojure-contrib, use ANT to get the vimclojure jar, start a ng-server server, and finally tell VI to use that NailgunClient!
05:19	crios_	Just thinking it was a joke :D!
05:20	crios_	so I must checkout the "contrib" source
05:20	crios_	can I "svn" it?
05:21	crios_	Or should I use just git?
05:21	LauJensen	hehe
05:21	LauJensen	You should use Git for any and all SCM purposes, especially however, Git repositories
05:21	djpowell	the new ->> is nice
05:22	crios_	lol. So in order to configure vi I have to install git, too. ehehe. Ah, these programmers! ;)
05:23	LauJensen	(doc ->>)
05:23	clojurebot	I don't understand.
05:23	LauJensen	djpowell: ?
05:23	djpowell	it has just been added in git
05:23	djpowell	it is like ->, but it threads the last parameter
05:24	djpowell	so you can do (->> (range 1 7) (filter odd?) (map #(* 2 %)) )
05:24	LauJensen	ah ok
05:35	LauJensen	For those interested in concurrency http://www.dzone.com/links/concurrency_challenge_dining_philosophers.html
05:38	crios_	btw, LauJensen, why do you think I should ALWAYS use git?
05:40	LauJensen	crios_: Where SCMs are concerned I far prefer the distributed approach. Regarding implementations, Git is 1) Much more effecient, which gives a faster workflow, 2) Better integrated into Emacs (Magit/egg) 3) Has a few more tools (maybe not anymore though), like git bisect. 4) Branching is redundant in SVN/CVS but comes to great use in Git
05:40	Chousuke	redundant is not the right word. "pain" is better :P
05:41	LauJensen	hehe, true
05:41	crios_	regarding the fourth point it is difficult to not agree :)
05:41	Chousuke	git makes branching natural
05:42	crios_	It should be the real reason for which I would leave svn
05:45	crios_	this is my experience: suppose two branches, feature1 and feature2. I have to freeze a release, so a create a new branch release1, merging both. Then, when I'll have to merge that features in trunk (for example), I cannot merge release1 with trunk: I must restart the merge using feature1 and feature2 branches towards trunk!
05:45	crios_	[when using svn]
05:50	jdz	somebody's been using too much syntactic sugar
05:50	LauJensen	who?
05:50	jdz	(map #(agent %) (repeat 5 0)) => (map agent (repeat 5 0))
05:51	LauJensen	oooh :)
05:51	LauJensen	I got caught red handed didn't I ? :)
05:51	sgtarr	LauJensen: you're behind bestinclass?
05:52	LauJensen	Yes
05:52	sgtarr	Basically, you're to blame that I'm now back to looking at Clojure instead of Scala ;)
05:52	LauJensen	Haha :) You read the concurrency post did you? :)
05:52	sgtarr	yep
05:52	LauJensen	Man I'm glad to hear that, welcome to :)
05:55	jdz	LauJensen: does the program work at all?
05:55	LauJensen	jdz: The dining philsophers? Yea it runs flawlessly
05:55	jdz	you use @forks in the code, although forks is just a sequence
05:56	LauJensen	lemme look, might be some cut'n'paste which got mangled
05:56	LauJensen	Good catch, thats version 0.1 code :)
05:57	LauJensen	I started with (ref {:1 true :2 true...} but went with n-refs after cgrand spanked me
05:58	jdz	also, there's something wrong with: I can pull id [id (dec id]
05:58	jdz	most probably missing paren before closing ]
06:00	jdz	i'd define a function fork-available? and then use that as the first parameter to every? in got-forks?
06:00	LauJensen	thats a weird sentence alltogether
06:00	LauJensen	jdz: You think that would make it more clear?
06:01	LauJensen	I went with this because got-fork? was a fun parody on 'got milk?' :)
06:01	jdz	well, that's good software practice if you later decide to represent forks differently
06:02	jdz	and i dislike #() sin-tax [with a little passion]
06:02	LauJensen	Man you get annoyed quickly
06:02	jdz	in general, #(= true (second %@)) in no way tells me what it's supposed to mean
06:03	jdz	hence the code is not readable
06:03	LauJensen	%@ is ugly, I've changed to (deref %)
06:03	jdz	and hard to grasp if i have to jump all over the program to look what my-forks returns, and then go looking what is in the forks sequence etc
06:04	jdz	changing to deref does not change the point
06:04	jdz	the code is not self-documenting
06:04	jdz	as opposed if you used the fork-free? predicate
06:04	jdz	just try reading the body of the function with my suggestion and your original version
06:05	Chousuke	isn't the (= true ...) a bit redundant? or is it possible to have values that are logically true but should return false with the test?
06:05	LauJensen	You have a point jdz, but I think code-length can itself add a factor of unclearness to the code. Generally ½ line abstractions are to be avoided I think
06:06	LauJensen	Chousuke: It's for new-comers
06:06	LauJensen	(which I think my site has 92% of)
06:06	jdz	LauJensen: see, Chousuke also has a point. and his objection is not related to the got-forks? function, but to fork-available?
06:07	LauJensen	I see that
06:12	Chousuke	I think you could make it a lot cleaner if your fork data structure was a map instead of a vector
06:13	LauJensen	a map of refs ?
06:13	jdz	and why is the fork vector in a ref when it's the second member that's changing?
06:13	jdz	i.e., the fork id never changes
06:13	LauJensen	yea thats redundant
06:15	Chousuke	if you had {:fork-id % :free? true}, then the controversial lambda would become #(:free? (deref %))
06:16	LauJensen	yea - I think I might need to release a 2.0 in a couple of days :) I built a model quickly and then added to it. To a degree this hasn't been ideal
06:46	hamza`	hey guys, which notation is prefered i use (new SomaClass) mostly but i see code using (SomeClass.) notation which one is more idiomatic?
06:47	LauJensen	last
06:47	hamza`	kk thx.
06:53	ambient	http://bitumenframework.blogspot.com/2009/09/benefits-of-using-clojure-lisp-in.html
06:54	ambient	btw, are rich hickey's jvm summit talks anywhere online?
07:04	y-combinator	Hello. What is the easiest way to convert Clojure hashmap to java.util.HashMap?
07:04	LauJensen	ambient: I wonder why it tarries
07:05	ambient	LauJensen not following you
07:06	LauJensen	ambient: I wonder why it's not up yet
07:06	ambient	yep
07:07	LauJensen	,(java.util.HashMap. (hash-map :a 5))
07:07	clojurebot	#<HashMap {:a=5}>
07:08	LauJensen	y-combinator: I think that's as easy as it gets
07:10	y-combinator	LauJensen: thank you
07:10	LauJensen	np
07:32	AWizzArd	Anyone here who runs Compojure behind https?
07:32	AWizzArd	LauJensen?
07:33	LauJensen	Yea, one of my applications is on https
07:33	AWizzArd	did you configure Jetty for that? Compojure ships its own jetty, and that is just a .jar file. No config files etc.
07:34	AWizzArd	Or do you have an Apache on port 80 with ssl support which simply transparently proxies your request on a jetty on localhost?
07:38	LauJensen	Since it was for 2 clients we put an apache in front of it. Only one of 2 clients wanted https
07:38	LauJensen	Next time I'll opt for nginx though
07:38	crios_	does anoyone know what does it mean "clj_want_gorilla" when configuring vimclojure?
07:39	jdz	must be something every vim user knows :/
07:40	simplechat	So compojure is clojure for webapps?
07:40	AWizzArd	LauJensen: nginx for more simplicity in the setup?
07:40	LauJensen	yes, once you know what you're doing it takes 5 minutes to setup, and I have a hunch that it's more effecient
07:41	AWizzArd	simplechat: Compojure is a lib with which you can (easily) write webapps in Clojure.
07:41	LauJensen	simplechat: it's one way to go
07:41	simplechat	very cool :)
07:41	simplechat	any nice tutorials?
07:41	simplechat	LauJensen, any other good ones?
07:41	AWizzArd	there already are severals
07:41	simplechat	(that you'd recommend)
07:41	AWizzArd	tutorials
07:41	LauJensen	no :)
07:41	arbscht	beware many of the tutorials are now obsolete
07:41	simplechat	none that are worthy of recommendation?
07:42	LauJensen	simplechat: I looked at technomancys concourse git repo on Github, that's the only 'tutorial' I've had :)
07:43	ambient	does compojure have a remotely stable api yet?
07:44	arbscht	ambient: I think so
07:44	LauJensen	simplechat: They might exist, but Compojure is Rock solid and James Reeves (one of 2 core developers) does some amazing work, so I have no reason to look around
07:44	LauJensen	ambient: I think so, but you might want to ask on the group
07:44	ambient	it would be cool to try it but can't help thinking i'm wasting my time if i have to learn to do it in a completely another way later
07:44	ambient	ok
07:44	simplechat	very cool :)
07:44	LauJensen	ambient: I think the main function you'll be using (html [:h1 "My header"] [:p "My paragraph"]) isn't likely to change
07:45	simplechat	can you get a repl on the server?
07:45	arbscht	simplechat: certainly
07:45	LauJensen	Yep
07:45	simplechat	OMFG :)
07:45	simplechat	arbscht, how?
07:45	arbscht	simplechat: as with CL, you may load swank into the server process
07:45	simplechat	swank?
07:46	arbscht	or you could launch the server in a screen session
07:46	arbscht	clojurebot: swank-clojure
07:46	clojurebot	clojure is the bestest programming language available.
07:46	jdz	or just use eval to evaluate code from random people that will destroy your server
07:47	arbscht	http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure
07:50	simplechat	hey arbscht i can imagine that would be absolutely awesome
07:50	simplechat	so you code on your server, which is then running actual code which is web accessable?
07:51	LauJensen	Just thinking out loud - If you have a repl running on a live server system, it would be possible to through nmap to discover that and break in quite easily.
07:52	simplechat	LauJensen, well you'd secure it
07:52	arbscht	LauJensen: bind it to localhost and connect via an ssh tunnel
07:52	arbscht	simplechat: you could do that, but preferably not on a production server :)
07:52	simplechat	like i have a VPN to my servers so i'd just only expose it via the vpn
07:52	simplechat	arbscht, am i the only person who would call this profanity worthy?
07:52	LauJensen	arbscht: Yea something like that - All I'm saying is, don't let the door open
07:53	simplechat	LauJensen, note taken
07:53	LauJensen	simplechat: nothing is ever profanity worthy
07:53	ambient	a simple ssh shell wouldn't suffice?
07:53	simplechat	LauJensen, in the "This is [x]ing cool"
07:53	simplechat	type of sense
07:53	simplechat	assuming i can get it working
07:53	ambient	don't bind the repl to anything
07:53	simplechat	and learn emacs
08:05	Fossi	does proxy return a value even if the interface is defined void?
08:10	Chouser	calling any void Java method returns nil, whether it was defined by 'proxy' or not.
08:33	jowag	does anybody know what is the license on the clojure logo? Or is it trademarked?
08:36	Chouser	I don't think it's trademarked. rhickey generally gives permission for any use related to the Clojure language.
08:38	pixelman	hahaha the sound on this page http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/
08:39	ambient	apple quicktime addon? no thanks :/
08:39	ambient	can't you just directly link to the midi file?
08:40	Chouser	midi?
08:40	Chouser	there are links at the bottom of the page to the .mp3s
08:40	ambient	oh, it was some mp3's
08:40	ambient	i wonder what the qt stuff is for
08:41	pixelman	it autoplayed in my mac
08:41	ambient	heh, i miss the times when half of the personal web pages had some cheesy midi file playing in the background :p
08:42	Chouser	once I turned on JavaScript it autoplayed here on Ubuntu
08:42	ambient	well it's quicktime, so totem/mplayer/whatever might have it
08:42	ambient	but windows vista needs it to be manually installed
08:53	djpowell	Inspired by this: <http://www.rubyinside.com/hijack-get-a-live-irb-prompt-for-any-existing-ruby-process-2232.html>, I put together something similar for clojure. It takes a process id, and uses the Java 1.6 Attach API to start a clojure repl up in that process, and lets you type stuff into that repl. I'll have to remember to publish it somewhere if anyone's interested.
08:54	pixelman	awesome! I've been wanting to do that in clojure
08:54	eevar2	djpowell: how does it compare to swank?
08:54	eevar2	swank-clojure, that is
09:00	simplechat	djpowell, i'm interested
09:02	pixelman	are closures thread safe?
09:04	Chousuke	pixelman: well, they're supposed to be immutable so... yes? :/
09:04	pixelman	each thread keeps it's own references?
09:05	Chousuke	what do you mean?
09:05	Chouser	djpowell: wow sounds amazing.
09:05	pixelman	I assume they are thread safe, I just try to understand how it is done
09:05	Chouser	a closure can certainly do thread-unsafe things
09:07	Chousuke	pixelman: the closure saves a references to the objects in the outer scope that you use within the closure. if the things are immutable, you can't have threading problems. :)
09:07	Chousuke	of course you can always capture a reference to something mutable
09:07	Chouser	or pass in a mutable thing
09:08	pixelman	ok!
09:08	pixelman	but for each thread the arguments passed to the closure are the threads own?
09:08	Chouser	closures are independent of threads
09:09	pixelman	uh
09:09	Chouser	the arguments passed to a closure are whatever arguments you pass to it
09:10	crios_	,(clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source cons)
09:10	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.repl-utils
09:10	crios_	mm
09:10	Chouser	~def cons
09:11	Chouser	still not very helpful. cons just calls clojure.lang.RT/cons
09:11	crios_	whati is it "(fn* cons"
09:11	crios_	?
09:11	crios_	fn* ?
09:11	Chouser	crios_: that's clojure code before most of clojure has been defined yet. :-)
09:11	simplechat	hey, i know this is probably stupid, but how do you implement a counter as a clojure?
09:12	Chouser	crios_: fn* is currently just like fn but without support for destructuring, :pre/:post, etc.
09:12	Chouser	crios_: but that's an implementation detail. note that at that point in core.clj, not even 'defn' is defined yet.
09:13	crios_	thaks Chouser. Yes, I'm trying to "study" / read core.clj source code
09:13	crios_	maybe some more simple code base should be appropriate^
09:13	Chouser	simplechat: you want the closure to change some state each time it's called?
09:13	Chousuke	simplechat: depends on what you need to count
09:13	Chousuke	simplechat: a ref is good, or an atom
09:13	Chouser	crios_: reading core.clj can be quite instructive, just keep in mind that much of what it does early on can be done more easily later.
09:14	simplechat	Chouser, yep
09:14	Chousuke	simplechat: or in some cases, just a regular function parameter
09:14	simplechat	Chouser, just a number
09:14	Chousuke	simplechat: sure, but for what use? :)
09:14	crios_	ok Chouser
09:14	simplechat	Chouser, more information?
09:14	Chousuke	hm
09:15	simplechat	uh, Chousuke
09:15	Chouser	simplechat: if you want some mutable state, you need a reference object to hold that state. Like Chousuke said, an atom or ref would be a good choice.
09:15	Chousuke	simplechat: do you need a global counter for something or just count something within a loop?
09:16	pixelman	my question re closures is if something like this would be thread unsafe: (defn unsafe? [x] (fn [y] (let [z (+ 2 x)] (+ z y)))) i.e. having a let in a closure.
09:16	simplechat	Chouser, global counter
09:16	Chousuke	pixelman: no
09:17	pixelman	Chousuke: tnx
09:18	Chousuke	pixelman: unless x is mutable at least. which it won't be if it's a number
09:18	pixelman	but then I would have to wrap it in a transaction?
09:18	Chousuke	hm
09:19	Chousuke	I don't really know
09:19	Chousuke	something like (defn foo [a] (fn [x] (aset a 0 x))) would be unsafe
09:19	Chousuke	because a is mutable
09:19	Chousuke	but that's not really a closure problem
09:20	Chousuke	that's a problem with a being mutable :)
09:20	pixelman	:)
09:31	manic12	this could be a java question, or it might also have to do with clojure under slime, but how does one debug threads running other than the repl?
09:32	manic12	how does one even get a list of running threads for that matter?
09:34	crios	help on thi expression: (. clojure.lang.RT (cons x seq))
09:35	crios	the second member (cons ...) should not be a method in clojure.lang.RT ?
09:35	Chouser	crios: same as (clojure.lang.RT/cons x seq)
09:36	crios	ah, ok, it is a static method
09:38	Chouser	yes
09:38	Chousuke	that's "old style" code though. don't imitate :)
09:39	crios	ok boss :)
09:42	manic12	anybody know of some good docs to look at for basic threading stuff?
09:45	crios	manic12, mabye on Sun's site
09:45	crios	http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/concurrency/
09:46	manic12	thanks
09:47	crios	when one should use the ":arglists" metadata when defining a new function?
09:48	Chousuke	it's a documentation thing
09:48	Chousuke	(doc defn)
09:48	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata"
09:48	Chousuke	you can make it look like that if you want
09:48	Fossi	confusing?
09:50	crios	that documentation hint is used by automatic doc-gen tools? Why should be not enough to parse the content of [ ] ?
09:52	Chousuke	well, :arglists defaults to the argument vectors :P
09:52	Chousuke	but you can override it if you want to be more specific
09:53	jdz	crios: if you look at the definition of defn you'll see none of the arglists mentioned in documentation
09:53	crios	that is if I just want rename a paramter?
09:53	crios	yes jdz
09:54	jdz	in case of defn it does a bit of argument processing (restructuring if you will)
09:54	jdz	so it has only one named (positional) parameter
09:54	jdz	the rest are picked out automagically
09:56	crios	so defn add :arglists metadata automatically, picking that information from the input parameters. If I want, I can override that behaviour with my own names
09:57	jdz	no, it does not add anything automatically.
09:58	jdz	:arglists is provided by the author of the definiton
09:58	jdz	definition even
09:58	crios	mmm so why Chousuke say ":arglists defaults to the argument vectors" ?
10:00	jdz	because that's true :)
10:00	jdz	i was a bit confused about your question. your conclusion was right in this sense.
10:02	jdz	it's not "overriding behaviours", but just providing data manually...
10:02	crios	do all function have an arglists metadata?
10:03	jdz	it would be a nice exercise for you to write a function that finds that out
10:05	crios	mmm a function which get a function name as parameter, then search for that metadata?
10:06	tmountain	you can walk through a namespace to determine what functions are available
10:06	jdz	you can get all vars in the namespace, you can determine if the value of a var is a function, you can get the metadata, etc
10:06	jdz	you have all the tools
10:10	crios	wait. I know that not all functions are declared with :arglists. But when they are evaluated/compiled at runtime, that metadata is not added automatically?
10:11	crios	btw, the private function 'sigs' have no arglists declared
10:15	RomanRoe	why does (.getClassLoader java.util.Map) returns nil? Any other chance to get the classloader?
10:18	crios	maybe you should wrapp that with class
10:18	RomanRoe	(.getClassLoader (class java.util.Map)) => nil as well
10:32	hiredman	the javadoc for Class says some implementations may use null to represent the bootstrap classloader
10:41	RomanRoe	ah, thanks for pointing that out! I switched to (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader) which is correct for java.util.Map
10:53	tmountain	is the download link on clojure.org supposed to still point to code.google.com rather than github?
10:54	weissj	tmountain: i don't think github has builds on it, just source to build yourself. i could be wrong about that, but i think the current release really is on google code
10:55	tmountain	weissj: ok, just checking. for some reason I thought the whole project was moved to github.
10:55	weissj	tmountain: i know the discussion is still in google groups
10:56	arbscht	and issues are on assembla
10:56	tmountain	ok, I see what you guys are saying
10:56	hiredman	~github
10:56	clojurebot	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/master
10:59	tmountain	I'm looking at core.clj right now. It's amazing how accessible it is in contrast to other language source I've perused.
11:18	Chouser	what's the name of that java lib that lets you create html/dom widgets in the browser?
11:20	cgrand	Chouser: the one that uses webkit?
11:20	Chouser	no, it runs in a web server and generates javascript and stuff
11:20	Chouser	it had some generic-sounding name
11:21	cgrand	Chouser: ah sorry, I read your question too quickly
11:22	cgrand	jwt?
11:23	cgrand	http://www.webtoolkit.eu/jwt
11:23	Chouser	yes! perfect, thanks.
11:36	manic12	in java, to get a list of threads, you have to enumerate the root thread group recursively, passing it an array allocated with enough space for all the threads, however between the time you ask how many threads there are and call enumerate the number of threads could change, is there something wrong with this picture?
11:37	manic12	is there a without-interrupts in clojure, or better yet a function already written to list the threads?
11:37	Chouser	whoa
11:38	Chouser	,(keys (Thread/getAllStackTraces))
11:38	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getStackTrace)
11:38	Chouser	bah. Anyway, that should produce something like what you want.
11:39	manic12	what happens if you type ,(System/exit 0) to clojurebot ?
11:40	stuartsierra	,(System/exit 0)
11:40	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.0)
11:41	manic12	thanks guys
11:45	crios	,(fn? #'read-line)
11:45	clojurebot	false
11:45	manic12	what I'd really like is if an exception were thrown in one of my window callback threads it would open and interactive clojure repl on that thread (with the ability to continue from that error of course)
11:45	crios	(fn? read-line)
11:45	crios	,(fn? read-line)
11:45	clojurebot	true
11:46	Chouser	,(ifn? #'read-line)
11:46	clojurebot	true
11:46	crios	wow
11:46	Chouser	manic12: you must be a lisper
11:46	manic12	how else am I supposed to debug?
11:47	Chouser	manic12: It might not be impossible, but I think would require essentially writing a java debugger in clojure. could be fun!
11:47	manic12	poke at the black box until it spits something out
11:47	Chouser	manic12: many (most?) java debuggers work on clojure, like jswat.
11:48	manic12	so I should google jswat
11:48	Chouser	sure. or jdb which comes with the jvm
11:50	manic12	do you start clojure in the debugger or something?
11:51	Chouser	manic12: hm, I hardly ever use it. I think you can attach the debugger afterwards.
11:53	rhickey	manic12: if you start Clojure with the right flags you can attach a standard Java debugger at any point
11:53	rhickey	http://clojure.org/getting_started
11:55	rhickey	manic12: it is definitely a different experience vs Lisps which monitor their own evaluation
11:56	lisppaste8	crios pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87561
11:57	crios	well I tryied to write a function which parse all clojure.core vars
11:57	crios	and get only the functions that don't have :arglists
11:57	crios	could you give it a look?
11:57	Chouser	I guess java debuggers run in their own jvm and process, not in the same jvm process as the code they're debugging?
11:58	Chouser	crios: 'ifn?' is true for every var
11:59	crios	btw, debuggers can attach to another process, but live into their own process
11:59	Chouser	crios: you'd need to deref the var and use 'fn?' or 'ifn?' on the result
12:00	crios	I was suspecting that. In fact, it was return in too
12:00	crios	so deref..
12:00	crios	do you mean (deref ?
12:01	Chouser	yup
12:02	crios	,(fn? (deref #'read-line))
12:02	clojurebot	true
12:02	crios	ok
12:02	crios	going to rewrite..
12:03	crios	(meta does not need deref?
12:03	Chouser	nope, not even close. :-)
12:03	crios	mmm this is the trouble :)
12:06	lisppaste8	crios annotated #87561 "with deref" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87561#1
12:06	crios	new version, but don't work: "java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref"
12:06	Chouser	also note that the values of ns-map are not symbols but vars
12:07	Chouser	oh
12:08	Chouser	hm
12:08	crios	so do you mean that I cannot deref it?
12:08	Chouser	no, that's not what I mean. I just mean my-symb is misnamed. my-var would be more accurate
12:10	crios	ok. but with this version I get an Exception: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref
12:10	crios	just trying to understand it
12:10	Chouser	hm, actually ns-map also has values that are not vars: imported classes are included
12:10	Chouser	maybe try ns-publics instead of ns-map
12:11	crios	with ns-publics: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/unquote-splicing is unbound.
12:12	Chouser	yeah, not all vars have values. :-)
12:13	Chouser	so ... once all the bugs are fixed, I'm getting an empty seq.
12:15	crios	what vars have no value?
12:15	Chouser	(def foo)
12:15	Chouser	ones like that
12:15	crios	sure
12:15	crios	mm
12:16	hiredman	this is why using for can get messy
12:16	Chouser	,(filter #(and (.isBound %) (fn? @%) (not (:arglists (meta %)))) (vals (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
12:16	clojurebot	()
12:16	hiredman	instead of chains of maps and filters and takes
12:16	crios	so a "best practice" would be avoiding (for ?
12:17	Chouser	I don't see how 'for' is any worse in this case.
12:17	Chouser	a little wordier, perhaps, since this is really just a single filter.
12:18	hiredman	Chouser: if you write something like (-> x ((partial map fn)) ((partial filter fn1)) ...) it is much easier to swap stages in and out
12:20	Chouser	hmmm
12:22	crios	in my example using the for, how could I use isBound?
12:22	crios	is it an instance method of Var?
12:22	Chouser	just add :when (.isBound my-var)
12:22	Chouser	yes
12:23	crios	thanks
12:23	crios	going to rewrite
12:26	lisppaste8	crios annotated #87561 ""bound" check" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87561#2
12:26	crios	ok now works
12:27	crios	querying ns-interns returns just a function
12:31	Chouser	ah, 'sigs'? that appears to be a private var
12:39	crios	yes, sigs
12:40	crios	so all the functions have arglists.
12:40	crios	still I cannot understand why :D
12:46	hiredman	eh?
12:46	hiredman	fn objects don't have arglist metadata
12:47	hiredman	~ticket search Fn metadata
12:47	clojurebot	("#140: Single :tag for type hints conflates value's type with type of return value from an invoke" "#12: GC Issue 8:\t:default as keyword arg to defmulti")
12:47	hiredman	bah
12:47	hiredman	~ticket search fn metadata
12:47	hiredman	clojurebot: well?
12:47	clojurebot	("#140: Single :tag for type hints conflates value's type with type of return value from an invoke" "#12: GC Issue 8:\t:default as keyword arg to defmulti")
12:47	clojurebot	No entiendo
12:47	hiredman	~ticket search metadata on fns
12:47	clojurebot	("#94: GC Issue 90: \t Support metadata on fns")
12:48	hiredman	~ticket #94
12:48	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/mgjunh, :summary "GC Issue 90: Support metadata on fns", :status :new, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-06-17T20:43:34+00:00"}
12:48	hiredman	any arg list metadata comes from the vars that hold the functions
12:51	crios	I understand your point: you say that the metadata is owned by a Var, not by a IFn
12:55	hiredman	owned?
12:55	hiredman	I guess
12:55	lisppaste8	crios annotated #87561 "the metadata is in the Var, not in the function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87561#3
13:01	crios	so this was the reason of why the Var needed a defer in order to pass its value (a function) to (fn? ); whereas the (meta does not need a defer, because it was applying on the Var itself
13:02	hiredman	yes
13:03	crios	wow. this is the most important day of my life!
13:03	crios	eheh
13:18	savanni	When did the increase happen? I contributed myself to it last night.
13:19	Chouser	~max
13:19	clojurebot	max people is 176
13:19	Chouser	that's holding steady, isn't it?
13:19	Raynes	I don't know. I just happened to notice that there is like 40 more people than usual in here.
13:19	Raynes	I've not looked the channel number in quite a while, but it's not been that long.
13:19	Chouser	AWizzArd's been saying we should expect it as schools start up again
13:20	Raynes	Good point.
13:37	slyrus_	perhaps other #lispers came over after seeing rhickey's boston video
13:38	Chouser	was there a recent boston video?
13:38	Chouser	I thought the most recent was JVM language summit. I assumed that was in California.
13:39	savanni	"Functional Programming with Clojure"?
13:39	savanni	Oh, nm, that's by someone else.
13:42	hiredman	did the video from the semantic web thing ever get put up?
13:49	slyrus_	Chouser: http://clojure.blip.tv/file/1313398/
13:50	technomancy	savanni: that was me. =)
13:50	savanni	Cool!
13:51	Chouser	slyrus_: ah, that one. I think that's from late last year.
13:51	Chouser	But on the internet, content lives forever!
13:52	savanni	Thanks for the link.
14:06	mccraig	liebke: i'm getting a missing dependency on jung on incanter/master
14:09	liebke	jung?!
14:09	liebke	wow
14:10	liebke	I removed that dependency a long long time ago, let me see if I can figure out the problem
14:10	mccraig	yeah, graphs.clj imports a load of jung classes as far as i can see
14:10	mccraig	hmm
14:10	liebke	ah, I thought I removed graphs.clj...
14:11	mccraig	ah, hold on... i should be using charts.clj
14:11	liebke	nope, it's still there... I'll remove it from the distribution
14:11	mccraig	doh :)
14:11	liebke	:)
14:11	liebke	I still need to remove graphs.clj, thanks for pointing that out :)
14:12	mccraig	yr welcome
14:13	mccraig	have you considered splitting core, so that it doesn't initialise swing ? would perhaps make it a bit friendlier for backend use
14:15	liebke	yes, I think that's due to a single reference I have to a Processing class. I would like to fix that.
14:18	mccraig	cool. am playing around with incanter while i find my away around some bayesian inference stuff. was very happy to find it. thanks !
14:18	liebke	you're welcome, I hope you find it useful
14:55	wwmorgan	(= (float 0.5) (double 0.5)) returns true, but (= (float 0.55) (double 0.55)) returns false
14:57	Licenser_	wwmorgan: I am pretty sure that this is related with the way float and double rounds
14:58	hiredman	,(float 0.5)
14:58	clojurebot	0.5
14:58	hiredman	,(float 0.55)
14:58	clojurebot	0.55
14:58	hiredman	,(double 0.55)
14:58	clojurebot	0.55
15:00	Chouser	,(== (float 0.55) (double 0.55))
15:00	clojurebot	false
15:00	Chouser	,(== (Float 0.55) (Double 0.55))
15:01	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Expecting var, but Float is mapped to class java.lang.Float
15:01	Chouser	,(== (Float. 0.55) (Double. 0.55))
15:01	clojurebot	false
15:01	Chouser	that seems rather unfortunate
15:02	durka42	,(.floatToIntBits (float 0.55))
15:02	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: floatToIntBits for class java.lang.Float
15:02	stuartsierra	,(= (Float. 0.55) (Double. 0.55))
15:02	clojurebot	false
15:02	durka42	,(.floatToIntBits (Float 0.55))
15:02	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Expecting var, but Float is mapped to class java.lang.Float
15:02	durka42	bah
15:02	durka42	,(.floatToIntBits (Float. 0.55))
15:02	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: floatToIntBits for class java.lang.Float
15:03	hiredman	every day for about an hour #scala turns into ".equals sucks, what can be done to fix it, omg the cure is worse then the disease"
15:03	durka42	but, but
15:03	durka42	it's right here http://www.j2ee.me/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/lang/Float.html#floatToIntBits(float)
15:03	Chouser	,(Float/floatToIntBits 0.55)
15:03	clojurebot	1057803469
15:03	durka42	oh, duh
15:03	durka42	,(Double/doubleToLongBits 0.55)
15:03	clojurebot	4603129179135383962
15:03	wwmorgan	,(.doubleValue (float 0.55))
15:03	clojurebot	0.550000011920929
15:03	stuartsierra	there's your answer
15:04	wwmorgan	any suggestions?
15:04	durka42	use an epsilon to compare floating point numbers
15:04	Chouser	stuartsierra: ah, of course. don't attempt to use equality with floating point
15:04	Chouser	,(== 5 5M)
15:04	clojurebot	true
15:05	stuartsierra	,(< (Math/abs (- (float 0.55) (double 0.55))) 0.001)
15:05	clojurebot	true
15:05	wwmorgan	that's OK, but I'm actually trying to compare two nested structures
15:05	wwmorgan	I may be able to work around it in the way that I construct them, however
15:06	wwmorgan	by explicitly specifying number type
15:06	stuartsierra	If you care about equality, you should probably use BigDecimal
15:06	durka42	you still can't rely on equality between to Floats
15:06	durka42	two*
15:06	durka42	(== 0.2 (+ 0.1 0.1))
15:06	durka42	,(== 0.2 (+ 0.1 0.1))
15:06	clojurebot	true
15:06	wwmorgan	ah. Good points
15:08	durka42	,(apply + (take 10 (repeat 0.1)))
15:08	clojurebot	0.9999999999999999
15:30	hiredman	http://twitter.com/nicksieger/status/4064269448 seems like an interesting idea
15:30	hiredman	turn events into a lazy sequence
15:40	Chouser	lazy-xml does essentially that -- turns SAX parse event callbacks into a lazy seq of event objects
15:43	Chouser	with plenty of painful thread management inside. :-/
15:44	hiredman	orly
15:44	tomoj	is DnD not what I think it is?
15:44	hiredman	drag and drop
15:44	tomoj	aah, heh
15:50	manic12	with jswat, I can set a breakpoint, but once I get there I can't do anything at all except stop the debugger. after stopping the debugger, it refuses to reconnect to process
15:50	Chouser	oh, in fact I split that out. seq-utils/fill-queue packages up the ugliness and can act as a general facility for turning async events into a lazy seq
15:50	Chouser	manic12: you can't look at the stack trace or anything?
15:50	Chouser	(before stopping the debugger)
15:51	manic12	yes, I can look at the stack trace, but it wont let me resume from the breakpoint or even step forward
16:01	LauJensen	Rich uses this phrase in his essay on state and identify " It causes a bifurcation of the program protocols" - What does it mean ?
16:04	Chouser	when you want to represent an action, should you do so using a message or a function?
16:05	Chouser	With clojure agents, the action is always a function -- there is no "message".
16:10	technomancy	tomoj: you were thinking dungeons 'n' dragons too? =)
16:10	hiredman	2d6+11
16:10	clojurebot	14
16:10	savanni	wow
16:10	hiredman	what a crummy roll
16:30	technomancy	(try (eval '(throw (InterruptedException.))) (catch InterruptedException _ nil))
16:30	technomancy	^ this doesn't catch the exception
16:30	technomancy	any idea what's going on there?
16:30	technomancy	works fine w/o the eval
16:31	Chousuke	technomancy: maybe eval wraps it in a RuntimeException?
16:32	technomancy	I get: No message. [Thrown class java.lang.InterruptedException]
16:32	tomoj	technomancy: yup
16:32	technomancy	not a nested exception
16:34	ordnungswidrig1	hi
16:34	ordnungswidrig1	compojure-test> (contains? ::a ::a)
16:34	ordnungswidrig1	false
16:34	ordnungswidrig1	compojure-test> (contains? [::a] ::a)
16:34	ordnungswidrig1	false
16:34	ordnungswidrig1	That confused me
16:35	Chousuke	contains? is a key test actually
16:35	Chousuke	(contains? [::a] 0)
16:35	Chousuke	,(contains? [::a] 0)
16:35	clojurebot	true
16:35	Chousuke	,(contains? [::a] 1)
16:35	clojurebot	false
16:36	Chousuke	I think it's rather badly named :P
16:36	ordnungswidrig1	Chousuke: uhm, very baldy.
16:36	ordnungswidrig1	I thought it was a "sequence containmend test"
16:37	Chousuke	I suppose most people think that. but it's not :)
16:37	ordnungswidrig1	So, which functions tests for containment?
16:38	stuartsierra	in a sequence, they don't
16:38	stuartsierra	you generally use sets
16:39	stuartsierra	,(some #{1} [:a :b :c])
16:39	clojurebot	nil
16:39	ordnungswidrig1	stuartsierra: yes, ok. I read to use some. Sth. like (some #{:a} [:a :b :c])
16:39	ordnungswidrig1	,(some #{:a} [:a :b :c])
16:39	clojurebot	:a
16:39	ordnungswidrig1	ah!
16:40	stuartsierra	c.c.seq-utils/includes? does the same thing
16:40	ordnungswidrig1	contrib?
16:40	stuartsierra	yes, clojure.contrib.seq-utils
16:45	LauJensen	Rich uses this phrase in his essay on state and identify " It causes a bifurcation of the program protocols" - What does it mean ?
16:48	hiredman	LauJensen: scrollback, start reading after the first time you asked
16:48	LauJensen	You mean Chousers comment?
16:49	hiredman	yes
16:49	LauJensen	Ah, I wasn't sure it was for me, thanks
16:49	hiredman	it's also a good idea to include some more context in questions
16:50	hiredman	that line was specifically about actor style message passing as a concurrency construct
16:50	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: you mean the term "bifurcation" or the complete phrase makes no sense?
16:50	LauJensen	Its 'bifurcation' that's tripping me up
16:50	manic12	bifurcation means to split
16:50	LauJensen	Oh ok
16:50	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: It's a term used in chaos theory
16:51	manic12	to split a path or stream or something like that
16:51	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: Think "diversion"
16:52	LauJensen	Ok, so he's basically saying that you have to work around the programs own protocols ?
16:53	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifurcation_theory The second image is a popular example of a function that -- for certain values begins to switch between multiple values -- it bifurcates.
16:53	manic12	maybe he's saying that there shouldn't be two or more ways of doing exactly the same thing
16:53	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: Can you give me a pointer to the essay. I did not bookmark it
16:53	LauJensen	sure, http://clojure.org/state
16:54	manic12	of course i am reading your question with almost zero context
16:55	hiredman	you could just ask him when he is around
16:55	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: he says the program protocol is split into parts: some part of the protocol is the functions and some part is the value passed
16:56	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: do you know actor based concurrency?
16:56	LauJensen	ah ok
16:56	LauJensen	Yea I have the general idea
16:57	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: To make concurrency work with actors you must get the messages right that are passed and you must get the functions right that work on the messages. I think this is what he means by bifurcation.
16:57	ordnungswidrig1	LauJensen: message+functions
16:58	LauJensen	Seems plausible, thanks for helping me decrypt it
16:58	manic12	in other words the logic of the program is divided into two areas, eh?
17:00	manic12	i figured out my stupidity with this damn swat, it was stopping all threads instead of just the one I wanted it to stop
17:02	ordnungswidrig1	manic12: yes, two areas, if you like
17:03	ordnungswidrig1	anybody using compojure?
17:07	manic12	it's both good and bad that rich has taken a pragmatic approach towards choosing a platform for his language design
17:08	manic12	it's good that the jvm is popular, and that clojure integrates well with java
17:12	Makoryu	manic12: Hmm, what happened to the projects to get Clojure running on other VMs?
17:13	Chousuke	nothing. :)
17:13	manic12	i know very little about that and choose to stick my head in the sand on that matter
17:13	Chousuke	ClojureCLR still exists.
17:13	Makoryu	How's it doing?
17:13	Chousuke	that I don't know
17:13	manic12	does it use the DLR?
17:14	technomancy	some people have reported that it's "4 weeks behind regular Clojure", but I don't know where that comes from.
17:14	Chousuke	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-clr
17:14	technomancy	I haven't seen any commits for it in contrib in ages.
17:14	technomancy	oh, did they spin it off into its own project?
17:14	technomancy	why is rich hosting it?
17:14	Chousuke	It's semi-official I think
17:14	manic12	how about a clojure on a lisp runtime?
17:15	Makoryu	manic12: Define "a lisp runtine." I'm curious :p
17:15	Makoryu	You mean compiling Clojure to portable Common Lisp?
17:15	ffailla	is there a way to define a function literal without an an argument
17:15	technomancy	manic12: you mean Common Lisp? would be easier to write once clojure-in-clojure is finished
17:15	Chousuke	ffailla: #(foo bar)?
17:15	manic12	(I'm just joking because it would probably work as well as scheme does on a symbolics machine)
17:16	technomancy	minor pet peeve: people calling Common Lisp "lisp"
17:17	Makoryu	technomancy: Yeah. Clojure and Scheme are every bit as worthy of the name
17:17	manic12	'splain
17:17	Makoryu	Hell, so's Arc
17:17	manic12	clojure is not lisp
17:17	stuartsierra	Clojure is a lisp.
17:17	Makoryu	manic12: Common Lisp is not the original Lisp.
17:17	ffailla	Chousuke: yes, why wouldn't this work (let [f #(+ 1)] (f 1234))
17:17	manic12	clojure is a clojure and has left lisp to the history books
17:17	Makoryu	manic12: Okay, now you've veered off into tinfoil hat territory
17:18	manic12	how so?
17:18	Chousuke	ffailla: because you're calling f with an argument and it doesn't take any :/
17:18	manic12	I've been programming Lisp (CL) for years and clojure is nothing like CL or even scheme really
17:19	ffailla	Chousuke: duh... thank you :)
17:19	Makoryu	ffailla: You want (fn [& r] (do stuff that ignores r))
17:19	Chousuke	or possibly
17:19	Chousuke	,((partial + 5) 10)
17:19	clojurebot	15
17:19	Makoryu	manic12: Once more, CL is not the original Lisp.
17:19	Makoryu	manic12: It's not even older than Scheme.
17:20	manic12	i didn't say it was
17:20	Makoryu	manic12: Calling CL "Lisp" is a giant misnomer. Clojure is every bit as much a Lisp as CL is.
17:20	manic12	what i am saying is that clojure is a departure from lisp
17:20	clojurebot	clojure is far closer to perfection then python
17:20	Makoryu	manic12: It really isn't
17:20	Chousuke	clojurebot: than :(
17:20	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:21	lpetit	is clojurebot's source code available ?
17:21	Chousuke	yes
17:21	Chousuke	clojurebot: source
17:21	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
17:22	Makoryu	manic12: If you disagree, please explain, because I don't see how adding a bit of syntax for literals (something you can do within CL as well) suddenly disqualifies it as a Lisp when all its other attributes are very much in the tradition of Lisp.
17:22	lpetit	omniscient clojurebot, soon it will automatically change it's own source code in git, recompile himself, maybe also create sibling bots to have conversations with when everybody's sleeping :)
17:22	Makoryu	manic12: By the way, Clojure is far from the first Lisp to be implemented on the JVM
17:22	manic12	i think that clojure is it's own new thing
17:23	LauJensen	lpetit: Yea I was wondering about that (ns com.skynet.clojurebot) in the source
17:23	manic12	it focuses on sequences abstractly and not cons cells
17:23	Makoryu	manic12: And CL has a huge pile of generic functions that do exactly the same thing.
17:24	manic12	CL was pushing the limit of what it means to be a lisp too
17:24	Makoryu	So why do you insist on calling CL "Lisp" (not "a Lisp")?
17:24	Chousuke	this argument is silly
17:25	Chouser	Chousuke: +1
17:25	lpetit	I was searching a way to go to sleep, please continue this very interesting existential conversation a little more, it'll get me to sleep quicker than I had expected :-p
17:25	lpetit	would have
17:25	manic12	what I am saying is that at some point you have to make a break in calling a language a Lisp when it draws from so many other influences
17:25	tomoj	what counts as a lisp, really? anything with code as data?
17:25	tomoj	are sexp's important?
17:26	tomoj	or is it a genealogical thing?
17:26	LauJensen	Let me settle this for your boys, I asked google "define: lisp", and this is the truth: a speech defect that involves pronouncing `s' like voiceless `th' and `z' like voiced `th'
17:27	LauJensen	Or from Wikipedia/Lisp: "There are also a few new dialects of Lisp. Notably: Newlisp (a scripting language), Arc (developed by Paul Graham) and recently Clojure (developed by Rich Hickey) and Nu for programming with Apple's Cocoa."
17:27	manic12	clojure is not a lisp
17:27	Makoryu	manic12: Then neither is CL or Scheme ;)
17:27	Chouser	,(cons 1 (list 2 3))
17:27	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
17:28	lpetit	from the creator of Qi in ( http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/nextlisp(1).htm ) :
17:28	manic12	clojure has things in common with languages that are modern versions of lisp 1.5, but at some point there is a difference
17:28	lpetit	If we ask ourselves, ‘What is the genotype of Lisp?’, what is its DNA, its genetic legacy, I'd suggest that it is composed of the following five ideas. 1. Recursion as the primary mean of expressing procedure calling. 2. Heterogenous lists as the way of composing and dissecting complex data. 3. Programming by defining functions. 4. Garbage collection. 5. Programs as data.
17:28	lpetit	interesting distinction between the genotype and the phenotype of lisps.
17:29	Chouser	Clojure easily fits all those except perhaps 2
17:29	Chousuke	lists are only replaced with the more generic "sequences" :P
17:30	lpetit	yes
17:30	manic12	so only #5 seperates it from .net or anything else
17:30	Chouser	or seqs, vectors, and maps.
17:30	lpetit	and Qi will be ported to clojure to be hosted on the JVM. So Clojure has been seen as having the same DNA as Qi :)
17:30	Chouser	I rarely "compose complex data" with seqs, though I frequently use them for dissecting
17:31	Makoryu	I'd add something to the list above: Every Lisp should support a usable superset of its feature influences.
17:31	Makoryu	And Clojure does that pretty well, I'd say
17:32	Chouser	I find it handy to refer to clojure as a lisp, because it seems to be meaningful in an accurate way to a lot of people.
17:32	lpetit	But really guys, isn't that just the difference between the stages of a same program, made easy in lisp, maybe not so easy in other languages ?
17:32	Chouser	though ultimately I don't care much if it actually is a lisp
17:32	manic12	ok, so it's "handy"
17:32	manic12	neither do i
17:32	Chouser	hooray!
17:32	lpetit	I mean : iterative programming, start with simple data structures, and maybe enhance them
17:33	lpetit	Even in common lisp they do so I guess. CLOS is certainly used in practice !
17:34	Makoryu	manic12: You seem to care a lot, what with the number of times you've insisted in the past few minutes that Clojure is not a Lisp...
17:34	lpetit	bye guys, cu
17:35	LauJensen	night night
17:35	Chouser	lpetit: ciao
17:35	lpetit	What time is it in Denmark ?
17:35	lpetit	:)
17:37	Makoryu	Chouser: SURE! How about SCALA?!?
17:37	Makoryu	:D :D :D
17:37	Chouser	heh
17:37	LauJensen	Chouser: haha :) I've run out of languages
17:38	Chouser	really? no C++?
17:38	Chouser	you could go kick the groovy guys around a bit
17:38	LauJensen	(filter #(must-not-be-cruel-comparison %) available-languages)
17:38	Makoryu	Didn't they actually surrender to the Scala folks, or something?
17:39	Chousuke	LauJensen: redundant use of #()
17:39	manic12	Lisp originally stood for List processing, clojure is to lisp processing as jet engines are to propellors
17:39	LauJensen	I think if I was to write up another Vs piece, it had to bring something to the table which was not obvious... I can't think of anything atm
17:40	manic12	list processing
17:40	Chousuke	manic12: the word lisp has since changed its meaning.
17:41	LauJensen	Chousuke: yes, Lisp actually means Clojure nowadays
17:41	Chousuke	:)
17:41	LauJensen	little known fact...
17:41	Chouser	manic12: would you buy "like a lisp"?
17:42	Chouser	manic12: what about "looks like a lisp"?
17:42	manic12	i'm just stating my opinion
17:42	crios	,(filter #(= "remove" %) (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
17:43	clojurebot	()
17:43	Chouser	manic12: I'm asking for your opinion
17:43	crios	how can I extract the function with name "remove"?
17:43	manic12	oh
17:43	Chouser	,(filter #(= 'remove %) (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
17:43	clojurebot	(remove)
17:43	manic12	it "looks like a lisp"
17:44	Chouser	manic12: but isn't "like a lisp"?
17:44	manic12	because the parens come before the function, and it is like a lisp in that code is data
17:44	crios	thank you Chouser (forgetting the symbol!)
17:44	manic12	but the v22 takes off like a helicopter and flys like a turboprop
17:44	Chouser	,(filter '#{remove} (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
17:44	clojurebot	(remove)
17:44	Chousuke	I think any language that has a homoiconic representation based on lists or list-like things could be called a lisp
17:46	Chouser	,('remove (-> 'clojure.core ns-publics keys set))
17:46	clojurebot	remove
17:46	Chouser	ha!
17:46	Chouser	,(-> 'clojure.core ns-publics keys set 'remove)
17:46	clojurebot	(clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> (clojure.core/-> (quote clojure.core) ns-publics) keys) set)
17:47	Makoryu	,(doc ->)
17:47	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
17:47	Chousuke	.. something funky happened with -> there
17:48	Chouser	Chousuke: yeah, the ' at the end was expanded at read time, before -> got a chance
17:48	Chouser	so then the whole thing got stuck inside a (quote ...)
17:48	Chousuke	heh
17:48	Chouser	,,(quote lots-of-stuff remove)
17:48	clojurebot	lots-of-stuff
17:49	crios	mm I prefere (filter '#{remove} (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
17:49	crios	prefer
17:49	Chouser	crios: that's probably an appropriate preference. :-)
17:50	crios	well, much more readable, just IMHO of course
17:51	hamza	hey guys, is it possible to create an interface from clojure? (not implement)
17:51	Chouser	hamza: yes, but it must be AOT-compiled
17:51	Chouser	hamza: (doc gen-interface)
17:52	Chouser	,(-> 'clojure.core ns-publics keys ((partial filter '#{remove})))
17:52	clojurebot	(remove)
17:54	hamza	Chouser: does that kill the ability to test code using repl since i have to compile all the time?
17:54	hamza	doc says it does nothing when not compiling..
17:54	Chouser	hamza: only compile the interface when the interface changes
17:55	Chouser	so get it right. :-) creating new implementations with proxy can be done at runtime.
17:55	Chouser	hamza: it is a restriction, but one that comes from the JVM.
17:56	Chouser	dinner time. later, folks.
17:56	crios	Chouser here '#{remove} are you "escaping" a set?
17:56	hamza	kk now i get it :) as long as i keep the .class file on the class path i can play with the interface..
17:57	Chouser	crios: yes
17:57	Chouser	no.
17:57	Chouser	crios: quoting, not escaping
17:58	crios	ok
18:00	crios	so that quoted set is the predicate of filter. It applies that predicate to all elements inside the (keys. When matching, the return value is true
18:00	crios	correct?
18:02	crios	I mean when using this expression: (filter '#{remove} (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
18:03	hamza	,(+ 1 2)
18:03	clojurebot	3
18:08	ambient	groovy surrendered to scala? (reading the backlog ~1hr)
18:09	ambient	i've read through at least 10 different emacs tutorials and i know all those commands very well, but still feel like im just scratching the surface
18:10	ambient	i wish there were different what-i-use-for-my-stuff reports from people who have used emacs for lisp programming for a long time
18:10	technomancy	ambient: not to toot my own horn, but the PeepCode screencast on Emacs does that.
18:10	technomancy	as does the Starter Kit: http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
18:10	ambient	cool, i shall check that out
18:10	technomancy	have you seen http://technomancy.us/126 ? for clojure-specific functionality.
18:11	technomancy	ambient: nothing compares to pairing with a pro though.
18:11	ambient	i tried using the started kit but didn't enjoy some of its defaults and didn't really see the point in using it, because clojure-install already does all that i need (that I'm aware of..)
18:12	technomancy	there's http://planet.emacsen.org too
18:12	ambient	bookmarked :)
18:14	ambient	i wonder if there's any kind of an integration for firefox and emacs, like vimperator does
18:14	ambient	but then again, vimperator is so nice that perhaps it's not necessary
18:14	technomancy	ambient: heh. vimperator was inspired by conkeror, which is exactly that.
18:14	ambient	only thing i hate about vimperator is that i can't live without it anymore :(
18:15	ambient	seems that conkeror is not a firefox addon
18:16	technomancy	it's a separate app
19:00	hiredman	I think an IAgent needs to be lifted out of Agent
19:02	hiredman	the interface for interacting with the EDT via invokeLater is almost exactly what you get from an agent, so I'd like to be able to implemented an IAgent interface on top of it
19:12	hiredman	clojure.lang.Agent$Action being protected is kind of a drag
19:14	hiredman	it would be nice if there was an IAction interface that was public at least
20:10	Kjellski	hi there =)
20:10	rhickey	Kjellski: hey
20:10	Kjellski	can someone give me a hint about the make-array function?
20:11	dnolen	,(make-array Float/TYPE 10)
20:11	clojurebot	#<float[] [F@215bee>
20:11	dnolen	Kjellski: ^
20:12	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/192389 <-- actually, I needed Agent$Action to be lifted out into AAction (and IAction) and then replace the "new Action(..." in Agent with a new method called getAction
20:12	Kjellski	Actually I´m in some sort of newbe trouble I think. So what I´m trying to do is to make an array over an array of "things" and I´ve tried this:
20:12	hiredman	faux-agent should interact with the STM the same way agents do
20:13	Kjellski	(def test (seq (make-array Integer 2 2))) which should give me a 2by2 "matrix" of ints right?
20:13	Makoryu	Kjellski: Interesting smart-quotes... ಠ_ಠ
20:13	hiredman	(prn :foo) could be replaced with a call to invokeLater or invokeAndWait
20:14	hiredman	Kjellski: erm
20:14	hiredman	is there a reason you are using arrays?
20:15	hiredman	first, java doesn't have multidiemensional arrays, it has arrays of arrays, and that is what (make-array Interger 2 2) will make
20:15	Kjellski	What I wanted to do is some sort of minesweeper ... and I thought this would fit the problem ^^ please tell me thr right choise though
20:15	hiredman	second, Integer and int are different types
20:15	dnolen	Kjellski: might be better to just use vectors.
20:15	hiredman	ints are primitives and Integers are ints wrapped in an Object
20:16	Kjellski	@hiredman: I know both of these hints, but that doesn´t solve my problem... ^^
20:16	hiredman	third, call seq on the output of make-array is silly
20:16	dnolen	,[[1 0] [0 1]]
20:16	clojurebot	[[1 0] [0 1]]
20:16	technomancy	Kjellski: arrays are for java interop.
20:16	hiredman	seq returns a sequence
20:16	hiredman	has anyone heard anything about an electronic version of the contrib agreement?
20:17	Kjellski	Okay, sorry... maybe a bit closer to my real example, I want to stuff JButtons in there... ^^
20:17	technomancy	hiredman: there's a company here in Seattle that was talking about implementing that for a different OSS project
20:17	technomancy	had their lawyers look it over; said it would hold water
20:17	hiredman	Kjellski: definitely don't use arrays
20:17	Kjellski	But however, this will give me a nil seq...
20:19	dnolen	,(get-in [[(Object.) (Object.)] [(Object.) (Object.)]] [1 1])
20:19	clojurebot	#<Object java.lang.Object@18b1699>
20:20	Kjellski	hiredman: what is the better choice?
20:21	hiredman	well nuts, I don't have any envelopes
20:21	hiredman	Kjellski: a vector
20:21	hiredman	woa
20:23	hiredman	,(let [board [[nil nil nil] [nil nil nil] [nil nil nil]] move [1 1]] (update-in board move (constantly 'x)))
20:23	clojurebot	[[nil nil nil] [nil x nil] [nil nil nil]]
20:23	hiredman	:D
20:28	enderoute	(defstruct foo :x :y :z) (def bar '(3 4 5)); how can I struct a foo with bar? its got to be something simple
20:28	hiredman	(apply struct foo bar)
20:29	enderoute	thanks
20:47	khora	could you give me a clojure example to compile?
20:53	hiredman	I think wrapping SwingUtilities/invokeLater in the Agent abstraction might be the coolest thing since sliced bread
20:53	hiredman	~compile
20:53	clojurebot	the unit of compilation in clojure is the namespace. namespaces are compiled (not files). to compile a namspace the namespace needs to be on the classpath and so does ./classes/ (and the directory needs to exist) because clojure writes the class files to that directory. http://clojure.org/compilation
20:54	hiredman	there is an example there
21:53	dysinger	Are queues worked in yet?
21:53	dysinger	We are coding some message pub/sub in 1.1
21:54	rhickey	dysinger: you want to use JMS?
21:56	dysinger	We are trying to abstract. We are using activemq & rabbitmq
21:56	dysinger	To start
21:57	dysinger	(pub / sub / broadcast )
21:57	rhickey	the problem with abstracting is that key features get left out
21:57	dysinger	Y
21:58	dysinger	It's ok - was just curious
21:58	rhickey	I started to design something to wrap both j.u.c. queues and jms and found too many differences to make it worthwhile
21:58	dysinger	I hear you
21:59	rhickey	now I'm hoping HornetQ or ActiveMQ in local mode are fast enough to provide an in-memory-through-distributed API
21:59	rhickey	but AMQP is a whole other thing
21:59	dysinger	We can abstract over a couple I think
21:59	dysinger	For our needs
22:00	dysinger	(basic)
22:01	rhickey	I've decided not to put it on my plate for 1.1, so maybe you could run with it and contrib something
22:01	rhickey	the ideas I've been fiddling with are: tying queue transactions to dosync
22:02	rhickey	queue versions of map and filter
22:02	dysinger	rhickey: Thanks again btw :) our clojure team would be doing something else less cool without your hard work :)
22:03	rhickey	you're welcome
22:03	dysinger	We are now pairing over screen/emacs/voip :)
22:03	dysinger	So fun.....
22:04	rhickey	gotta run
22:04	dysinger	L8r
22:55	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
22:55	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
22:56	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "hydra (producer/consumers)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87611
23:07	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #87611 "better docstring? returns lazy-seq instead of LBQ" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87611#1
23:19	duck11231	would it be worth it to have some sort of manifest file that could be placed inside jar files to describe what clojure namespaces are contained within?
23:38	mabes	how do I look up a function if I have the name in string form?
23:38	hiredman	,(-> "+" symbol resolve)
23:38	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
23:38	hiredman	,(-> "+" symbol resolve deref)
23:38	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS___4094 clojure.core$_PLUS___4094@4e0456>
23:38	hiredman	the first one gets you the var, the second the function inside the var
23:39	mabes	,(apply (-> "+" symbol resolve) '(1 2 3))
23:39	clojurebot	6
23:39	mabes	thanks hiredman and clojurebot!