#clojure – 2009-09-03

2009-09-03

00:14	technomancy	will try in 1.1-snapshot; maybe it's been fixed
00:36	hiredman	clojurebot: example?
00:37	clojurebot	api examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
00:37	hiredman	clojurebot: example is Short, Self Contained, Correct (Compilable), Example http://sscce.org/
00:37	clojurebot	Huh?
00:37	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
00:37	clojurebot	Huh?
00:38	hiredman	damn it
00:47	technomancy	still broken with latest clojure master.
00:47	technomancy	looks like it only works with AOT'd functions
00:48	technomancy	will see if I can narrow it down to the a small repro case
00:49	hiredman	clojurebot: foo is is Short, Self Contained, Correct (Compilable), Example http://sscce.org/
00:49	clojurebot	In Ordnung
01:02	technomancy	OK, narrowed it down to a 4-line repro case: http://p.hagelb.org/bughunt.clj.html
01:08	technomancy	ah... solved my problem by moving my functions zipmap into the backquoted part of the macro
01:18	technomancy	sweet; it works.
01:18	technomancy	some nice syntactic sugar for defining processing apps: http://github.com/technomancy/clj-processing/blob/4e762d4c4e84e4e5b36d28655be591f4f067a05e/src/rosado/processing/applet.clj
01:19	technomancy	,processing
01:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: processing in this context
01:19	technomancy	~processing
01:19	clojurebot	Excuse me?
01:20	hiredman	clojurebot: processing is http://github.com/technomancy/clj-processing/blob/4e762d4c4e84e4e5b36d28655be591f4f067a05e/src/rosado/processing/applet.clj
01:20	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
01:22	technomancy	there's a better URL; hang on
01:22	technomancy	clojurebot: processing is http://github.com/rosado/clj-processing/
01:22	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
01:23	technomancy	clojurebot: processing is a language/toolkit for visualizations. See the Clojure wrapper at http://github.com/rosado/clj-processing/
01:23	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
01:23	technomancy	g'night folks
03:54	poet	having the same problem as here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77765 any ideas for a solution?
03:56	jdz	what the hell is swank-clojure-config?
03:57	poet	says to do that here http://riddell.us/tutorial/slime_swank/slime_swank.html
03:57	poet	I tried setting the variable by itself and that didnt work either
03:58	hiredman	~emacs
03:58	clojurebot	emacs is best configured for Clojure with instructions at http://technomancy.us/126
03:59	poet	nice, Ill take a look
03:59	hiredman	I don't use emacs, but that seems to be the tutorial to follow
04:09	AWizzArd	Is there a mechanism in the jvm or Clojure for autodetecting file encodings?
04:11	jdz	no, but there is a library that attempts to do it
04:12	jdz	cpdetector.jar
04:12	AWizzArd	thx
04:12	jdz	not perfectly reliable, though
04:12	subhadeep	hi everyone
04:13	subhadeep	i'm trying out clojure box
04:13	subhadeep	but in emacs swing isnt working
04:13	subhadeep	slime hangs
04:13	jdz	osx, right?
04:14	subhadeep	windows
04:14	subhadeep	xp
04:15	AWizzArd	subhadeep: go into the inferior-lisp buffer
04:15	AWizzArd	there press a few times enter
04:15	AWizzArd	then swing will not hang anymore in emacs
04:15	subhadeep	uh oh
04:16	AWizzArd	the first time when you want to show a swing component you need to press a few times enter in the inferior repl :-)
04:17	subhadeep	umm
04:17	subhadeep	doesnt help
04:17	subhadeep	:(
04:17	subhadeep	(. javax.swing.JOptionPane (showMessageDialog nil "Hello World"))
04:17	subhadeep	i tried this
04:17	subhadeep	its stuck
04:18	AWizzArd	But when you start a Clojure repl from a shell, then it works.
04:19	subhadeep	yes
04:19	subhadeep	infact from emacs
04:19	subhadeep	if i open a windows shell
04:19	subhadeep	and try it out it works
04:28	eevar2	encoding-detection is broken by design. just hardcode anything to utf-8 ;)
04:29	hiredman	:)
04:34	AWizzArd	eevar2: yeah, I would love to do that. Unfortunately others don't know about it
04:35	AWizzArd	clojurebot: paste
04:35	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
04:35	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
04:38	lisppaste8	AWizzArd pasted "Easier way to append to a file with specific encoding?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86490
04:38	AWizzArd	using contribs duck-streams
04:54	liwp	subhadeep: that works fine for me once I switch to the inferior-lisp buffer and hit enter once
04:55	liwp	(javax.swing.JOptionPane/showMessageDialog nil "Hello World") is slightly better style IMO
05:00	subhadeep	ok liwp
05:00	subhadeep	lemme try
05:03	subhadeep	it works this time
05:03	subhadeep	thanks
05:03	subhadeep	hmm
05:03	subhadeep	but do i have to get to inferior-list buffer everytime i try swing?
05:03	Chousuke	shouldn't you run swing UI code in the swing thread?
05:04	subhadeep	uh oh
05:05	Chousuke	at least if you want to create or change UI elements from the repl thread
05:05	Chousuke	it's not very difficult, though.
05:05	subhadeep	invokelater
05:05	Chousuke	just (SwingUtilities/invokeLater #(your code here))
05:05	Chousuke	or you can make a macro for that and do (swing your code here) :P
05:08	Chousuke	http://www.j2ee.me/products/jfc/tsc/articles/threads/threads1.html for more info
05:11	subhadeep	but without inferior-lisp buffer
05:11	subhadeep	i couldnt get the swing code running
05:12	subhadeep	though
05:12	subhadeep	learning emacs and clojure with clojure box :)
05:12	LauJensen	subhadeep: Youre only concern in regards to a seperate swing thread, is how you get messages?
05:12	subhadeep	no
05:13	subhadeep	in emacs
05:13	Chousuke	I had no problem running swing code from slime.
05:13	Chousuke	but I used my swing macros to run it.
05:13	subhadeep	i try (. javax.swing.JOptionPane (showMessageDialog nil "Hello World"))
05:13	subhadeep	and it gets stuck like that
05:13	LauJensen	Chousuke: You must have noticed that certain methods fail silently ?
05:13	subhadeep	until i try the inferior-lisp buffer
05:13	Chousuke	LauJensen: hm, not really.
05:13	LauJensen	oh... I get that hassle constantly
05:14	subhadeep	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/6c195c35ae9a7eb8
05:14	subhadeep	has the issue documented
05:14	LauJensen	For instance an onAction event for a swing component, will fail 100% silently
05:14	subhadeep	but didnt get a convincing solution
05:15	Chousuke	LauJensen: I got exceptions in the inferior-lisp buffer
05:15	LauJensen	eh?
05:15	Chousuke	when some swing-action failed that is
05:16	LauJensen	I dont see how thats possible
05:18	Chousuke	well I don't know what it did, but the exception backtraces get printed somewhere
05:18	Chousuke	and I just tested. (javax.swing.SwingUtilities/invokeLater #(. javax.swing.JOptionPane (showMessageDialog nil "Hello World"))) works perfectly from the slime repl
05:20	subhadeep	it didnt work for me though
05:20	subhadeep	until as i said inferior-lisp came to the rescue
05:20	Chousuke	hm :/
05:20	Chousuke	something's wrong with your java then.
05:21	subhadeep	umm i dont think so
05:21	subhadeep	its either winblows
05:21	subhadeep	or emacs config
05:21	Chousuke	might be. I'm on OS X.
05:21	liwp	It seems to me that you have to hit enter once in the inferior-lisp buffer and after that subsequent Swing calls work fine. That is, after hitting enter in the lisp buffer I can now bring up the dialog as many times as I want without any problems. So if you have a really long running Emacs process and slime session it's not a big deal.
05:21	clojurebot	"if you never learnt Lisp, then you never learned to program" -- some rant on some blog somewhere
05:21	subhadeep	many other faced the same problem without any viable solution as ma google says
05:21	subhadeep	yes liwp
05:22	subhadeep	after inferior-lisp
05:22	subhadeep	swing works fine in slime
05:22	Chousuke	weird.
05:22	LauJensen	Chousuke: I'm on LInux and I have the same behaviour as subhadeep
05:22	liwp	I've seen the issue on OS X as well (at home). I'm at work on Windows at the moment.
05:22	subhadeep	thanks for the help liwp and AWizzArd
05:22	subhadeep	told ya :)
05:23	Chousuke	hm
05:23	Chousuke	well, it might be your emacs config then
05:23	LauJensen	Its flawless
05:23	Chousuke	mine is quite customised :P
05:23	subhadeep	:)
05:24	subhadeep	i will try out in solaris once i get back home
05:24	subhadeep	i started with clojure yesterday night when i was reading this debate on scala vs clojure
05:24	subhadeep	as to who will hold the jvm fort
05:25	subhadeep	thought of learning LISP for a long time so finally i gave it a try
05:25	subhadeep	:)
05:25	liwp	blah, I'm getting really tired of the whole scala vs. clojure thing.
05:25	Chousuke	I never got comfortable with common lisp
05:25	Chousuke	but Clojure is great.
05:26	subhadeep	yes JRuby too ;)
05:26	LauJensen	liwp: funny, it doesnt bother me one bit
05:26	liwp	Chousuke: yeah me neither. I read through Practical CL but I didn't do anything else with CL after that. I also did some scheme, but that didn't stick either.
05:27	liwp	LauJensen: I just don't get it why there's suddenly this big need to compare the two. The only thing they have in common is that they run on the JVM
05:27	Chousuke	I wonder why Clojure is being compared to scala so much
05:27	Chousuke	Where's Groovy?
05:27	liwp	Chousuke: exactly
05:28	LauJensen	liwp: Havent you noticed that language wars have been going on since masm and tasm? :)
05:28	liwp	LauJensen: sure :)
05:28	subhadeep	scala has some big follwoing among the web2.0 darlings like twitter
05:28	AWizzArd	How can I get a MapEntry from a map?
05:28	Chousuke	what kind of a map?
05:29	Chousuke	hmm
05:29	LauJensen	,(map class {:foo 1 :bar 2})
05:29	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry)
05:29	AWizzArd	,(map identity {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3})
05:29	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3])
05:29	Chousuke	oh, heh.
05:29	AWizzArd	these things that print like vectors, but those are MapEntry's
05:29	subhadeep	hmm
05:29	AWizzArd	,(.getEntry {:a 1} 1)
05:29	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: getEntry for class clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
05:30	hiredman	they are vectors
05:30	AWizzArd	,(.getEntry {:a 1} :a)
05:30	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: getEntry for class clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
05:30	AWizzArd	,(map (comp identity) {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3})
05:30	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3])
05:30	AWizzArd	,(map (comp class identity) {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3})
05:30	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry)
05:30	AWizzArd	no
05:30	AWizzArd	they are not vectors
05:30	hiredman	,(ancestors clojure.lang.MapEntry)
05:30	clojurebot	#{java.lang.Iterable java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.IFn clojure.lang.IPersistentVector java.util.Collection java.util.Map$Entry java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.Seqable clojure.lang.AMapEntry clojure.lang.Streamable java.util.RandomAccess java.util.List clojure.lang.Indexed clojure.lang.IMeta java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.Associative clojure.lang.APersistentVector clojure.lang.IObj clojure.
05:30	AWizzArd	just print like them
05:30	hiredman	^-
05:30	hiredman	They Are Vectors
05:30	subhadeep	(+ 1 2 3)
05:30	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
05:30	subhadeep	:)
05:30	hiredman	~scala
05:30	clojurebot	Scala often gets in the way when trying to write neat code -- seen in #scala
05:31	AWizzArd	hiredman: ah okay, in the oop sense
05:31	AWizzArd	hiredman: how can I get such an entry when I have a key?
05:31	AWizzArd	there is a function for that, I just don't remember it :-)
05:31	Chousuke	I guess Clojure gets compared to scala because scala also advertises itself as a functional language. at least AFAIK
05:31	hiredman	~def java.util.Map
05:32	eevar2	and because they both run on the JVM
05:32	subhadeep	~ruby
05:32	clojurebot	Chunky bacon!
05:32	subhadeep	hehe
05:32	hiredman	oh
05:32	AWizzArd	ah :)
05:32	hiredman	~jdoc java.util.Map
05:32	Chousuke	I haven't studied Scala in depth because every snippet of scala code I have seen roused an irresistible urge to flee.
05:32	subhadeep	~jruby
05:32	clojurebot	No entiendo
05:33	subhadeep	wokay
05:33	LauJensen	I saw a thread recently which had the topic of "how to convert language x people to clojure" - I dont understand this mentality. I will not convert and I will not make an attempt at discussion, simply because Clojure is superior and I dont want to share the power.
05:33	subhadeep	wholly new syntax for me
05:33	subhadeep	coming from java/c++/ruby world
05:33	subhadeep	but its fun
05:34	Chousuke	there isn't much to learn anyway
05:34	subhadeep	umm
05:34	subhadeep	why ?
05:34	hiredman	~literal [3] scala
05:34	clojurebot	<reply>{((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
05:34	Chousuke	If you mean clojure syntax, there's (), [], {}, and the reader macros (which are optional)
05:34	Chousuke	and some special forms.
05:35	subhadeep	yes :)
05:35	Chousuke	hiredman: I still can't figure out wth that is supposed to be.
05:36	subhadeep	parentheses everywhere
05:36	hiredman	it's cons as λ
05:36	subhadeep	~scala
05:36	clojurebot	{((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
05:36	Chousuke	aha.
05:36	hiredman	it returns 1
05:36	hiredman	(x: Any, y: Any) => x is like car
05:37	hiredman	(took me a while mucking around with scalabot)
05:37	Chousuke	right.
05:38	Chousuke	I can't remember the lisp definitions of cons either though.
05:38	Chousuke	and I can't read that well enough to see what it is.
05:39	hiredman	,(((fn [a b] (fn [f] (f a b))) 1 2) (fn [a b] a))
05:39	clojurebot	1
05:40	liwp	hiredman: so there's a lambda which takes x and y as args and returns another lambda. The second lambda takes f as an arg and applies f to x and y. And finally we pass in (1, 2) to the first lambda and then the ((x, y) => x) lambda to the second lambda. Something like that?
05:40	hiredman	sure
05:40	liwp	yeah, that seems more familiar :)
05:40	Chousuke	ah, right.
05:41	liwp	to be fair to scala, the clojure version is a mess as well if you don't know clojure
05:41	Chousuke	there's less noise though.
05:41	liwp	agreed
05:41	liwp	less syntax => less noise ;)
05:42	Chousuke	that doesn't always hold though.
05:42	Chousuke	clojure has more syntax than common lisp, but I think it has less noise :)
05:42	sgtarr	what do you guys think about Scala?
05:42	Chousuke	mostly because of [] and {}
05:43	Chousuke	I also think the literal vector and map syntax also makes writing more expressive macros easier.
05:43	Chousuke	since you have two more syntax elements to work with.
05:43	Chousuke	or actually three since #{} is a literal set :P
05:44	Chousuke	but I haven't seen that in macros.
05:45	liwp	Chousuke: that is true, [] and {} do help. Also fewer parens in bindings and cond etc. help as well
05:48	liwp	sgtarr: I've looked at a little scala code in the past, mostly Lift and actors examples. Nothing wrong with it an it's a big step up from Java. I just think that Haskell and OCaml (even F#) are more interesting as strongly typed functional languages. Also, my understanding is that people are writing more OOP like code than FP like code in it, but I might be wrong.
05:49	liwp	So to me, at least for the time being, it's not very interesting
05:49	Chousuke	one thing that [] allows nicely is user code inside macros. you can have your macro syntax centered around vectors, and evaluate lists normally as user code. I think one of the html libraries does just this.
05:50	liwp	Chousuke: do you have an example handy?
05:52	sgtarr	liwp: seems like it is useful as a stepping stone for people not willing to dive into FP in every scenario, but rather work on it
05:52	Chousuke	I guess something like [:html [:body (generate-list "foo" "bar" "zonk")]] where generate-lists produces [:ul [:li "foo"] [:li "bar"] [:li "zonk"]] would be possible
05:52	Chousuke	if you had only lists available, it would be slightly more cumbersome to accomplish this.
05:52	Chousuke	though I suppose you could use quasiquote :)
05:54	LauJensen	What a fantastic idea to let ISPs decide the Whois format themselves. "COUNTRY:\tSE" "country: uk" "Country:\tUS" etc... :)
05:55	eevar2	i'm also shooting for haskell as my non-lisp FP language. moere new & interesting concepts than scala, and as it's just for playing around anyway..
05:56	hiredman	~haskell
05:56	clojurebot	Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you compute.
05:58	Chousuke	that should say: you don't have to compute while you don't compute
06:00	LauJensen	so fix it
06:00	LauJensen	:)
06:01	Chousuke	nah, I'm lazy as well.
06:08	liwp	Chousuke: oh, that's what you meant with macro syntax. I thought you might mean that it would be easier to implement (rather than call) the macro if the call used vectors for somethings and lists for others. It sounded like a real pain to me if you would have to check the types of args in the macro definition. It all makes sense now
06:11	Chousuke	it's also possible to have the macro expect just seqs of course.
06:12	Chousuke	,(letfn [[foo [x] x]] (letfn [(bar [x] x)] [(foo 2) (bar 3)])
06:12	clojurebot	EOF while reading
06:12	Chousuke	,(letfn [[foo [x] x]] (letfn [(bar [x] x)] [(foo 2) (bar 3)]))
06:12	clojurebot	[2 3]
06:13	Chousuke	hmm
06:30	djpowell	has rich mentioned anything about what his rdfm project is for? Is it for working with rdf, or is it designed as a way to serialize clojure datastores to a persistent store?
06:30	LauJensen	~rdfm
06:30	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
06:30	LauJensen	djpowell: Sorry, no idea
06:52	djpowell	rhickey: what is the purpose of the rdfm project you've been working on? To work with RDF? To be a general purpose way to store clojure datastructures?
07:20	ambient	btw is there any natural language processing library for clojure in existance?
07:20	ambient	i guess it would have to work through java interop...
07:22	ambient	or perhaps i should make a dent in my budget and finally buy peter norvig's book, iirc it has some stuff about that stuff
07:25	triyo	I am trying to call clojure/xml.parse with InputStream and my own Parser, like so (parse (.openStream url) myparser) but it throws IllegalArgumentException saying parse method not found. If I pass a string as path to file instead of InputStream it works 100%. my url is a java.net.URL and it has of course the getOpenStream which returns InputStream.
07:26	triyo	*getOpenStream = openStream
07:28	liwp	triyo: what happens if you do (parse (.openStream url))?
07:28	liwp	btw. the function is clojure.xml/parse not clojure/xml.parse
07:29	triyo	liwp: works fine...so is that a bug in the binding part of the clojure/xml.parse function or am I missing something?
07:30	liwp	based on the exception message is sounds like you're trying to call parse as a method on the InputStream
07:30	liwp	so (parse (.openStream url)) works but (parse (.openStream url) myparser) does not work?
07:31	triyo	thanks about ...xml/parse
07:32	liwp	triyo: I just meant that the function is parse and it's in the clojure.xml namespace, so if you're calling (clojure/xml.parse ...) you're doing it wrong
07:32	liwp	did that help then?
07:32	liwp	or is it still broken?
07:32	triyo	and yes, parse (.openStream url)) works but (parse (.openStream url) myparser) does not
07:33	liwp	hmm
07:33	liwp	,(doc clojure.xml/parse)
07:33	clojurebot	"([s] [s startparse]); Parses and loads the source s, which can be a File, InputStream or String naming a URI. Returns a tree of the xml/element struct-map, which has the keys :tag, :attrs, and :content. and accessor fns tag, attrs, and content. Other parsers can be supplied by passing startparse, a fn taking a source and a ContentHandler and returning a parser"
07:33	liwp	so what's myparse then?
07:33	Fossi	why in hell is a regex a special datatype?
07:34	triyo	the way I see it, I call clojure.xml/parse with 2 parameters, 1st: InputStream and 2nd: the parsers to use
07:35	liwp	triyo: well based on the doc string the second arg is a fn that returns a parser
07:35	triyo	(parse "/path/to/local/file" myparser) works
07:36	liwp	so it would seem that myparser is fine
07:36	liwp	sorry, I don't have any more ideas - I'm going for lunch now
07:36	Fossi	ok, they are a reader macro. that's a little more sane
07:37	triyo	I have (:use clojure.xml) :)
07:38	triyo	then call parse function
07:42	triyo	clojure.xml/parse says arg list options are as follows: ([s] [s startparse]) ... I am using the second of the two and the doc string says that 's' can be a string, File or InputStream
08:04	AWizzArd	~seen kotarak
08:04	clojurebot	kotarak was last seen quiting IRC, 5534 minutes ago
08:04	AWizzArd	,(/ 5534 60.0)
08:04	clojurebot	92.23333333333333
08:04	AWizzArd	,(/ *1 24)
08:04	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/*1 is unbound.
08:05	AWizzArd	,(/ 92.2333333 24)
08:05	clojurebot	3.8430555541666664
08:21	bpattiso1	BUILD FAILED
08:21	bpattiso1	/home/bpattison/opt/fnparse/clojure-build.xml:86: Could not find clojure.lang.Compile. Make sure you have it in your classpath
08:22	bpattiso1	^^^ i'm getting the above from ant
08:23	bpattiso1	any ideas? i've set the CLASSPATH to clojure .jar files but still get same error
08:24	Chouser	setting the CLASSPATH env var often has no effect since it's overridden by the command line
08:25	bpattiso1	so there's an "ant" option to set the classpath -- unfortunately i'm not that familiar with ant
08:29	Chouser	me either. you might check the .xml file to see if in mentions a setting for the classpath.
08:29	Chouser	like I know the contrib .xml file has you set -Dclojure.jar=... on the ant command line.
08:30	bpattiso1	i'll try that -- thanks
08:53	bpattiso1	Chouser: a variation of the -D option worked! thanks
08:58	Chouser	bpattiso1: great.
09:19	lisppaste8	raphinou pasted "looking for feedback on this code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86499
09:20	raphinou	I just pasted working code, but as I'm new to lisp like languages, I'm looking for feedback on how to improve it
09:20	raphinou	if someone has too much time... ;-)
09:24	Chouser	looks fine to me, for whatever that's worth.
09:25	Chouser	the use of closures seems good
09:25	Chouser	you could clean up the formatting a little. shrug
09:25	Chousuke	raphinou: Great work not using . directly! What's with the extra spaces though?
09:26	raphinou	yes, I should take a better habit of formatting from the start....
09:27	AWizzArd	Is there somewhere a good explanation of what ensure is doing? Good in the sense that it is targeted at idiots :)
09:27	Chouser	AWizzArd: what it does, or what it's for?
09:27	AWizzArd	second
09:28	AWizzArd	When should I use it?
09:28	Chouser	AWizzArd: you searched the google group? It's come up a couple times.
09:28	AWizzArd	I did that in the past, and at that time there were not too many entries. I can try it again now.
09:28	AWizzArd	I just had a dosync which won't work without ensure.
09:29	Chouser	you only need ensure when the behavior of your transaction depends on the value of a ref that you do not set.
09:29	Chouser	that you do not set within the transaction.
09:30	AWizzArd	When I read a value V in my transaction and depend on it, but without modifying V itself?
09:30	Chousuke	yeah.
09:30	Chouser	a ref V, yeah
09:30	AWizzArd	ok, then I will see where I had this case
09:31	AWizzArd	It must have been at least one path
09:47	AWizzArd	,(+ nil)
09:47	clojurebot	nil
09:49	AWizzArd	hmm, why is it good that (+ nil) ==> nil?
09:50	Chouser	because (+ anything) is anything
09:50	Chouser	,(+ nil 5)
09:50	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
09:50	AWizzArd	It is fine that:
09:50	AWizzArd	,(+)
09:50	clojurebot	0
09:50	AWizzArd	but (+ nil) I find strange
09:51	AWizzArd	,(+ "test")
09:51	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException
09:52	Chouser	ok, a related question: why does it matter at all what (+ nil) does?
09:52	AWizzArd	Someone asked me today for a simple example that would produce a NPC. I wanted to show him, but...
09:53	Chouser	call any method on nil
09:53	AWizzArd	(.append nil)
09:53	AWizzArd	,(.append nil)
09:53	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
09:53	AWizzArd	,(.append nil "world)
09:53	clojurebot	EOF while reading string
09:53	AWizzArd	,(count nil)
09:53	clojurebot	0
09:53	Chouser	,(.i-just-made-this-up nil)
09:53	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
09:54	Chouser	or call nil itself
09:54	Chouser	,((identity nil))
09:54	AWizzArd	,(nil)
09:54	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil
09:54	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
09:54	AWizzArd	Now I also find it strange and incorrect that (count nil) ==> 0
09:55	Chouser	well, if the Compiler can tell it's nil it won't even compile it.
09:55	AWizzArd	In CL it makes sense, because nil is the empty list.
09:55	Chouser	I don't understand why you would want things to generate more errors than necessary.
09:56	AWizzArd	error detection
09:56	AWizzArd	,(count (get {:a []} :a)
09:56	clojurebot	EOF while reading
09:56	AWizzArd	,(count (get {:a []} :a))
09:56	clojurebot	0
09:57	AWizzArd	,(count (get {:a []} :x))
09:57	jdz	"nothing" has exactly zero elements in it, right?
09:57	clojurebot	0
09:57	AWizzArd	jdz: this is also true for 15
09:57	AWizzArd	,(count 15)
09:57	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: count not supported on this type: Integer
09:57	AWizzArd	A 15 contains no elements
09:58	Chouser	,(map count (take 5 (iterate next [1 2 3 4])))
09:58	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1 0)
09:58	jdz	yes, nil is "nothing", so it does not make sens to do any operations on it except testing whether something is nil...
09:59	AWizzArd	right
09:59	jdz	Chouser: why next?
10:00	jdz	nil is not a sequence
10:00	jdz	so it makes sense for count not to work on it
10:00	AWizzArd	I would agree with that right now.
10:00	Chouser	,(conj nil 5)
10:00	clojurebot	(5)
10:01	jdz	,(map count (take 5 (iterate rest [1 2 3 4])))
10:01	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1 0)
10:01	Chouser	,(cons :foo nil)
10:01	clojurebot	(:foo)
10:01	jdz	that conj call also is a stretch
10:02	jdz	cons, otoh, is perfectly normal
10:02	AWizzArd	,(cons :foo (get {} :x))
10:02	clojurebot	(:foo)
10:02	AWizzArd	,(cons :foo (get {:x (list :xyz} :x))
10:02	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: }
10:02	AWizzArd	,(cons :foo (get {:x (list :xyz)} :x))
10:02	clojurebot	(:foo :xyz)
10:02	Chouser	when things have reasonable default behavior instead of erroring out, there are fewer special cases that have to be handled with extra pieces of explicit code
10:02	AWizzArd	and more holes for type errors
10:03	Fossi	pff, who writes code with type errors anyway? ;)
10:03	AWizzArd	Humas ;)
10:03	AWizzArd	Humans
10:04	Raynes	Androids.
10:04	Chouser	If you had to explicitly handle nil in a bunch of cases, you'd have just as many holes as now.
10:05	Chouser	and you'd have to handle them in all cases instead of just the cases where the current default isn't what you want.
10:05	Chouser	current behavior
10:05	AWizzArd	why is
10:05	AWizzArd	,(+ 5 nil)
10:05	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
10:05	AWizzArd	good then?
10:05	Chouser	AWizzArd: what would be the reasonable default there?
10:06	jdz	rule of thumb: nil is treated as an empty sequence if given to functions expecting sequences.
10:06	Fossi	IllegalArgument :)
10:07	Chouser	jdz: right. and returned by a subset of functions that return sequences
10:12	triyo	Chouser: I came across this old post http://markmail.org:80/message/2e7i72y4cg36wqdx and I got it to work as you sescribed it (xml.clj was updated with your change I can see) ... I am struggling to get the parse to work with that tagsoup parser when using s as InputStream instead of string. I get a IllegalArgumentException on tagsoup's parse method.
10:13	triyo	*sescribed = describe
10:16	triyo	(parse "/path/to/my/file" startparse-tagsoup) works 100% but (parse (.openStream url) startparse-tagsoup) fails with IllegalArgumentException on parse method. I see TagSoup has overloaded version of parse method that allows InputStream so I can't seem to see whats causing the problem.
10:19	Chouser	hm...
10:21	Chouser	that really is an old post. I had been using Clojure for about 3 weeks at that point...
10:23	triyo	hehe, like me now, :)
10:25	AWizzArd	I have many threads generate data and want to write it into a file. Is there already something like a Queued writer that will take a string to write and an index which tells in what order to write, and which will write as soon the queued write jobs allow that (because of their order)?
10:25	triyo	I am just so puzzled with this as I see org.ccil.cowan.tagsoup.Parser has a parse(InputStream) method and I know java.net.URL's openStream method returns a InputStream and thats what I pass as s param of startparse-tagsoup function
10:26	Chouser	triyo: note that tagsoup takes a org.xml.sax.InputSource
10:26	Chouser	that's what you're passing in?
10:26	Chouser	oh
10:27	Chouser	right. URL is returning you a java.io.InputStream. Different class
10:28	Chouser	triyo: note InputSource vs. InputStream
10:29	Chouser	fortunately InputSource has a ctor that takes an InputStream
10:29	triyo	I ran (show parser-instance) and confirmed that parse(InputStream) exists on org.ccil.cowan.tagsoup.Parser
10:29	Chouser	(parse (org.xml.sax.InputSource. (.openStream url)) startparse-tagsoup)
10:31	Chouser	triyo: I see InputSource and String overloads, nothing else. What version of tagsoup?
10:31	Chouser	I'm looking at 1.2
10:49	inverselimit	newbie q: are there LAPACK bindings for clojure?
10:55	Chouser	inverselimit: never heard of it, but you might be able to use http://icl.cs.utk.edu/f2j/
11:20	icylisper	any way to destructure-bind like (def [a b] (values a b)) , without using let ?
11:21	Chouser	I don't think so.
11:21	stuartsierra	No, you'd need a wacky macro to do that.
11:22	icylisper	Chouser: perhaps a macro destruct (destruct [a b] (values a b))
11:22	icylisper	yeah
11:22	icylisper	something like cl's m-v-b
11:23	Chouser	sure, destructuring in general is used in places where one might use m-v-b in CL
11:23	Chouser	but def doesn't destructure. I suppose it could, though.
11:24	stuartsierra	def is complicated enough, I think
11:24	Chouser	def isn't even a macro :-)
11:24	icylisper	Chouser: true. it would be cool if it did :)
11:45	Fossi	it isn't really obvious that binding does not have the let* property of binding in the same order
11:46	stuartsierra	this has been brought up before
11:46	Fossi	caused some headscratching here for a while
11:47	Fossi	i get why, but i guess there could be a hint about it in the api docs
11:47	stuartsierra	yes
11:48	rhickey_	patch welcome for doc
11:49	stuartsierra	http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/152
11:49	stuartsierra	i'll write a patch
11:56	stuartsierra	patch attached to #152
12:01	lisppaste8	drewr pasted "json-object-seq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86503
12:02	drewr	stuartsierra: think there's a place for j-o-s in c.c.json.read?
12:02	drewr	maybe just json-seq?
12:02	drewr	I'm serializing a bunch of objects to files and need to read them in lazily
12:03	stuartsierra	I can see where that would be useful.
12:03	stuartsierra	How do you make sure the file gets closed?
12:03	drewr	ah, good question
12:03	rhickey_	stuartsierra: fyi - I'm working on Clojure data structure serialization to/from RDF stores
12:04	drewr	stuartsierra: have to wrap in a with-open by hand I guess
12:04	stuartsierra	rhickey_: Awesome! Tell me more.
12:05	rhickey_	Basically you can save #^{:foo :foo} {:a 1 :b 2 :c #{3 4 5} :d [6 7 {:g 8}]}, in a single shot, and read it back also with a single call
12:05	lisppaste8	drewr annotated #86503 "caller needs with-open" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86503#1
12:06	rhickey_	everything gets flattened to triples, so you can query etc
12:06	rhickey_	does automatic creation of bnodes for "owned" nested elements, or you can have external refs via URIs
12:06	rhickey_	does multimap-style handling of sets as values
12:07	stuartsierra	rhickey_: Very, very interesting.
12:07	rhickey_	can store keywords as values and use as properties
12:07	stuartsierra	What do you mean by multimap-style?
12:07	rhickey_	handles all the atomic types as values
12:08	rhickey_	{:a #{1 2 3}} for some uri xxx will yield triples xxx :a 1, xxx :a 2, xxx :a 3, rather than an RDF collection as the value
12:08	stuartsierra	That's good.
12:09	rhickey_	there will be an rdfm/assoc* which does that set-aware association
12:09	stuartsierra	How do you map between Clojure keywords and RDF predicates?
12:10	rhickey_	basically you can spit a relatively arbitrary structure into the triple store, but later use rdfm/assoc/assoc/dissoc/dissoc inside RDF transaction and get both the new value and the necessary triples stored
12:10	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #86503 "Simpler" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86503#2
12:11	rhickey_	http://org.clojure/keywords/your-ns/your-key
12:11	drewr	stuartsierra: nice
12:11	rhickey_	you can use strings as keys too, will be presumed a valid URI
12:12	stuartsierra	rhickey_: Ok. So I could (def dctitle "http://purl.org/dcterms/title")
12:12	rhickey_	stuartsierra: yes, np, I looked at what you were doing putting URI strings into vars and look to support it
12:12	rhickey_	you can mix and match
12:13	stuartsierra	Cool. Having a 1-to-1 mapping between Clojure data structures and RDF would make my day/month/year, I think.
12:13	rhickey_	vectors become collections with rdf:_nnn properties
12:13	stuartsierra	ok
12:13	stuartsierra	Lists are rdf:List, I assume.
12:13	rhickey_	metadata supported for maps
12:14	rhickey_	I don't do lists or sets-as-collections yet
12:14	stuartsierra	ok
12:14	rhickey_	restoring rdf:Lists is extremely piggy
12:14	stuartsierra	Sets as multiple properties makes more sense to me.
12:15	stuartsierra	Yes, I got annoyed trying to deal with rdf:List. I thought it would be easy.
12:15	rhickey_	yes, as map members sets become multiple props, but as vector members not
12:15	stuartsierra	Ok, this makes sense.
12:15	clojurebot	this is not a bug
12:16	stuartsierra	What about literal datatypes?
12:16	rhickey_	plus I will support (rdfm/assoc a-stored-vec i new-val)
12:16	rhickey_	int/long/float/double/bigint/bigdec/boolean/calendar/string/keyword
12:17	rhickey_	will add symbols
12:17	stuartsierra	How about things that don't map directly to Clojure/Java types, like "my string"@en?
12:17	rhickey_	and (rdfm/conj a-stored-vec an-additional-val)
12:18	rhickey_	stuartsierra: the objective of the library is definitely leveraging RDF stores to store Clojure data, not interop with RDF data
12:18	stuartsierra	Ok, fair enough.
12:19	rhickey_	when reading back "my string"@en what would you expect to be returned?
12:20	stuartsierra	Best I could come up with is {:type :literal :value "my string" :language "en"}
12:20	rhickey_	hmm
12:21	stuartsierra	This is the problem with every RDF library; some parts don't quite match any typical language constructs.
12:21	Chouser	#^{:language "en"} "my string"
12:21	Chouser	if only
12:21	rhickey_	The library uses the Sesame API, which seems pretty widely supported - AllegroGraph, Virtuoso as well as Sesame.
12:22	stuartsierra	Sesame and Jena are probably the two big ones.
12:22	stuartsierra	The secondary layers like JRDF don't seem to add much.
12:24	rhickey_	once the data is in you can use sparql etc to query it
12:24	stuartsierra	Are you using Sesame 1.x or 2.x?
12:25	rhickey_	2.x
12:26	stuartsierra	ok
12:36	winterstream	Hi everyone. I'm trying to instantiate a Java object whose constructor parameters are (double[], double). In Clojure's REPL, if I try (LinearObjectiveFunction. (into-array [-2.0 1.0]) -5.0), Clojure complains that no suitable constructor exists. What am I missing? The class I want to instantiate is described at http://commons.apache.org/math/api-2.0/org/apache/commons/math/optimization/linear/LinearObjectiveFunction.html
12:39	Chouser	,(into-array [-2.0 1.0])
12:39	clojurebot	#<Double[] [Ljava.lang.Double;@1ade7f6>
12:39	Chouser	That's an array of Double not double
12:39	Chouser	,(into-array Double/TYPE [-2.0 1.0])
12:39	clojurebot	#<double[] [D@1cc903c>
12:39	Chouser	try that instead
12:40	winterstream	Ah
12:40	winterstream	Chouser: thanks! It works!
12:43	drewr	wow, that's confusing
12:44	stuartsierra	Boxed primitives are an unfortunate legacy feature of the JVME.
12:44	stuartsierra	*JVM
12:44	ole3	how to convert an java array to a string?
12:46	stuartsierra	If it's an array of chars, (String. the-array)
12:46	stuartsierra	or bytes, (String. the-array "UTF-8")
12:49	ole3	(make-array byte 2)
12:50	ole3	oops
12:50	stuartsierra	,(make-array Byte/TYPE 2)
12:50	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@1ebaf3>
12:50	ole3	:) thank you
12:51	ole3	by the way, what's the difference between (new String ...) and (String. ....)
12:59	cschreiner	how can I test for a {} structure in my data?
12:59	drewr	,(map? {:foo 1})
12:59	clojurebot	true
12:59	cschreiner	ah
12:59	cschreiner	it is always so easy...
13:00	drewr	well, the easy things are :-)
13:04	stuartsierra	ole3: (String. ...) is syntactic sugar for (new String ...)
13:04	stuartsierra	Any EMACS fans know how to open a file in the subdirectory under point in a dired buffer?
13:08	drewr	C-x C-f then use completion?
13:09	drewr	it'll start in the current dired directory
13:09	stuartsierra	Right, that's what I'm trying to avoid. Like if I'm in a dired buffer on "/home/stuart/project" but I've expanded the subdirs to "/home/stuart/project/src/main/java/foo/bar/baz" and I want to open a file there.
13:10	drewr	if you've traversed to baz then find-file will be local to that dir
13:11	stuartsierra	Not if I've traversed to baz using dired-maybe-insert-subdir (bound to "i")
13:11	eyeris	Is there a form of assoc that simple takes a map, key, and function, with a body similar to this? (assoc m :k (f (:k m)))
13:12	drewr	stuartsierra: ah, that's different :-)
13:13	stuartsierra	My dired buffer looks like this: http://paste.lisp.org/+1UQZ
13:14	Chousuke	eyeris: update-in
13:14	eyeris	ty
13:14	Chousuke	it takes a seq of keys though :)
13:15	drewr	stuartsierra: you can't hit RET on the baz so that it's not a subdir at that point?
13:15	Chousuke	,(update-in {:a 1 :b 2 :c {:a 3}} [:c :a] inc)
13:15	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2, :c {:a 4}}
13:16	stuartsierra	drewr: doesn't work if I hit RET on the subdir header line, works if I go up one parent and then hit RET
13:16	drewr	that's what I mean
13:17	drewr	i... i... i.... RET C-x C-f
13:17	drewr	at worst, ^ RET C-x C-f
13:18	stuartsierra	drewr: Yeah, just want it to be one key. Hmph. I guess I could write it.
13:25	lisppaste8	stuartsierra pasted "dired-find-file-in-subdir" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86509
14:00	LauJensen	How do you define a 'triple' data structure?
14:05	Chouser	LauJensen: that's an RDF thing
14:06	Chouser	LauJensen: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-triples
14:06	LauJensen	Thanks a lot
14:07	eyeris	How do I control which defs are exported from my namespace?
14:07	Chouser	eyeris: all vars are public unless marked private
14:08	Chouser	eyeris: you can use defn- or #^{:private true} to mark a var as private
14:09	eyeris	Okay
14:09	eyeris	Thanks
14:25	Chouser	ok, that's fun. (rseq ft) returns a thing just like ft except with cons/first/rest swapped for conj/peek/pop
14:26	Chouser	so you can build/consume from the other end, then call rseq again to switch back to a normal-direction finger-tree, all without losing any abilities.
14:26	Chouser	that is, both seq and rseq just return another finger-tree, not a cursor type of any kind.
14:37	eyeris	I swear I will never understand the rules for the ns macro
14:37	Chouser	:-(
14:37	eyeris	If I want to :use two namespaces, what is the syntax?
14:37	Chouser	(ns foo (:use [ns1 :only []] [ns2 :only []]))
14:38	eyeris	Okay, that works.
15:14	LauJensen	What is this obession that the chinese have for accessing /fastenv on my webserver ?
15:15	eyeris	LauJensen sounds like they're probing for a FastCGI vulnerability
15:15	LauJensen	oh ok - amazing perseverance
15:15	eyeris	Just a guess.
15:15	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #86509 "better dired-find-file-in-subdir" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86509#1
15:21	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #86509 "binding it to a key in dired" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86509#2
15:23	LauJensen	stuartsierra: ido aint doing for you ?
15:23	stuartsierra	LauJensen: what do you mean? What's ido?
15:24	LauJensen	ido-find-file, what I type back, and it auto completes to ~/home/coding/lisp/projects/clojureql/src/dk/bestinclass/backend.clj ?
15:24	LauJensen	s/what/where
15:25	LauJensen	I keeps a history of all your files, and whenever you type something, it finds the file
15:25	LauJensen	s/I/It
15:26	stuartsierra	ok, didn't know about that one. But no, I wanted something for opening a new file that doesn't exist yet.
15:27	LauJensen	ah ok
16:42	LauJensen	Is there any hope on the horizon for a quality UI toolkit for Java?
16:50	slyrus_	LauJensen: hasn't there been hope for years now?
16:51	LauJensen	nope
16:51	LauJensen	I got my hopes up a little bit with the entrace of QtJambi - but then that died
16:52	stuartsierra	There's probably a good commercial toolkit out there.
16:53	slyrus_	LauJensen: I didn't say a quality UI toolkit, I said _hope_ for one. that's been around for as long as I can remember.
16:53	LauJensen	slyrus_: nope, sorry
16:55	hiredman	what is the problem with swing?
16:56	LauJensen	its ugly, its laggy, its unflexible
16:57	hiredman	laggy?
16:58	LauJensen	Its does not perform well
16:58	Chousuke	hm.
16:58	Chousuke	I'm not sure if that's swing's fault.
16:58	Chousuke	or just that people misuse it. :/
16:58	LauJensen	Its swing
16:59	LauJensen	But Im not here to discuss swing, I was just probing for some new technological innovations
17:01	hiredman	the #java guys seem pretty happy with swing
17:01	LauJensen	They must not know better
17:01	hiredman	so what is better than swing, and why is it better?
17:01	Chousuke	LauJensen: with quick googling I can't find any resource that claims swing as particularly slow
17:02	LauJensen	hiredman: Aqua for instance, performs better, looks nicer, is more easily extended. Same goes for Windows MFC, which is just pure joy to work with in Visual Studio
17:02	LauJensen	I'd say the only thing thats not better is GTK
17:02	stuartsierra	I have noticed Swing apps with a lot of drawing errors, but I don't know if that's Swing's fault or the app's fault.
17:03	stuartsierra	LauJensen: but both Aqua and MFC are single-platform products, Swing is trying to work everywhere.
17:03	hiredman	LauJensen: the visual studio comment makes it sound like a tools issue
17:03	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Doesnt change the user-perception
17:04	Chousuke	I think Swing may have an undeservedly bad reputation. :/
17:04	Chousuke	just like Java has :P
17:04	stuartsierra	LauJensen: agreed, but that may explain why it's harder to do GUIs well in Swing than in Aqua or MFC.
17:04	LauJensen	hiredman: its a little bit of both
17:04	hiredman	I am inclined to agree with Chousuke
17:05	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Sure, but I'm cynical enough not to care, I just want somethings thats high quality :)
17:05	LauJensen	I'd go as far as to say that the UI side of things, is my only dark cloud over Clojure
17:05	LauJensen	Rich needs to put emphasis on the eye candy! :)
17:05	duncanm	if i have a list of maps, each one like {"x" 0 "y" 1}, how do i pluck out all the "x"s?
17:06	duncanm	ahh
17:06	duncanm	map!
17:06	stuartsierra	yep
17:06	LauJensen	(keys m) ?
17:07	stuartsierra	(map #(get % "x") list-of-maps)
17:07	duncanm	stuartsierra: that's exactly what i'm writing now
17:07	LauJensen	duncanm: this is the simplest way to go
17:07	LauJensen	,(doto (java.util.ArrayList. (into [] (mapcat concat (map keys (list {"foo" 2 "bar" 3} {"min" 4 "max" 5}))))) java.util.Collections/shuffle)
17:07	clojurebot	#<ArrayList [bar, min, foo, max]>
17:08	LauJensen	nothing will beat that for pure elegance, but you'll get random results :)
17:09	LauJensen	its a sad day when even my 'code jokes' dont fly...
17:10	stuartsierra	wasn't sure what you were going for there
17:11	LauJensen	its not elegant, its not simple, it randomizes the result... just tought it was funny when (map keys ..) was enough
17:11	arbscht	rest assured, my face was deeply embedded in my palm when I read that. there was an instant, though, in which I panicked about my choice of ClojureQL...
17:12	LauJensen	haha
17:13	LauJensen	ClojureQL rocks - I just did a very awesome combination of compojure+clojureql+googlecharts to auto-generate some very nice stats for www.bestinclass.dk
17:53	Chousuke	hm.
17:54	Chousuke	just now this swing talk made me take a look at my swing experiments file I wrote some time ago to learn how it works.
17:54	Chousuke	it has a small blue square that I can move around the screen with arrow keys. my drawing code was rather idiotic though...
17:55	Chousuke	(holding down an arrow key caused java to have over 100% CPU utilisation in top)
17:56	Chousuke	so I rewrote the code to be a bit smarter and now it uses ~7-10% :P
17:56	aack	\join #lisp
17:56	Chousuke	My dream is to write a small roguelike in Clojure at some point but first I really need to learn swing better :)
17:58	Chousuke	but if I ever get to the point that I have an avatar walking around the dungeons, I'm going to embed a clojure repl in the game for spellcasting :P
17:58	Chousuke	it'd be neat to make a game by playing it :)
17:58	hiredman	Chousuke: you should make a clojure version of ruby-warrior http://github.com/ryanb/ruby-warrior/tree/master
18:00	tomoj	swing? :(
18:00	tomoj	it's really too bad java sucks at the console
18:01	tomoj	my dream is to write a messaging client, but it needs to run in screen
18:01	Chousuke	yeah, I couldn't find any terminal drawing stuff :/
18:02	technomancy	Chousuke: you should try clj-processing
18:02	technomancy	it's a lot of fun
18:02	tomoj	I found jcurses but my tentative judgement is that it sucks
18:02	technomancy	~processing
18:02	clojurebot	processing is a language/toolkit for visualizations. See the Clojure wrapper at http://github.com/rosado/clj-processing/
18:02	hiredman	http://github.com/ryanb/ruby-warrior/tree/master
18:02	technomancy	incanter (the stats package) is migrating towards that
18:02	hiredman	er
18:03	hiredman	http://www.pitman.co.za/projects/charva/Screenshots.html "A Java Windowing Toolkit for Text Terminals"
18:03	tomoj	haven't tried that one yet
18:04	tomoj	my problem is that I'm not really interested in making it look like a shitty old console gui with windows and tabs. I just want like irssi
18:04	tomoj	maybe you can manipulate charva into being more minimal..
18:04	spaceman_stu	is there a good way to implement type-specific versions of already defined fns? like count for an unsupported type
18:05	tomoj	spaceman_stu: I was just thinking about exactly that while walking home
18:05	tomoj	afaik, no
18:05	spaceman_stu	bummer
18:06	tomoj	I suppose you might be able to replace count with a multimethod and have it delegate to the old count for things it doesn't know about
18:06	spaceman_stu	yeah, I was thinking about that
18:06	tomoj	but that doesn't seem like a good idea to me
18:06	technomancy	spaceman_stu: for things that are based on interfaces it's not hard to do
18:06	technomancy	but I don't think count is
18:06	technomancy	it's easy to proxy something like IMeta though
18:07	tomoj	oh, hmm, I hadn't thought about that
18:07	tomoj	I suppose you can also act like seqs, too?
18:07	tomoj	was trying to think of how to translate some python into clojure, and the python has objects that duck-type as lists
18:07	technomancy	actually, count does work on an interface
18:07	technomancy	just implement clojure.lang.Counted and write a count method
18:08	tomoj	I dunno if I'm happy using a java type, though :/
18:08	Chousuke	,(count (proxy [clojure.lang.Counted] [] (count [] 5)))
18:08	Chousuke	hmm
18:08	technomancy	docs say you have to guarantee constant-time counts; not sure how important that is
18:11	tomoj	is = linear in the size of the data structure?
18:13	stuartsierra	I think = checks hashes first, so it's constant if the structures are not equal, linear if they are.
18:14	stuartsierra	But (= (iterate inc 0) (iterate inc 0)) will not terminate.
18:15	technomancy	infinity is a constant. =)
18:15	tomoj	ah, but if you have a proxy like above, it'll use the default equals() from java and = will just compare the reference, right?
18:16	tomoj	but then, if you memoize a function call on that reference, you still prevent it from being garbage collected, I suppose. hrmmm
19:10	somnium	can clj-haml generate the xml? (would shave off 50-100 characters at least)
19:12	tomoj	hrmm
19:12	tomoj	trying to figure out how to write python's re.findall in clojure
19:12	tomoj	java.util.regex.Matcher wants you to call .find and then .group to get the next match
19:14	Chousuke	re-seq?
19:14	Chousuke	(doc re-seq)
19:14	clojurebot	"([re s]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive matches of pattern in string, using java.util.regex.Matcher.find(), each such match processed with re-groups."
19:15	tomoj	oh
19:15	tomoj	damn
19:15	tomoj	missed that one, thanks :D
19:17	tomoj	the source is illuminating
19:17	tomoj	I was trying to do something like that but couldn't quite get it
19:22	tomoj	so anonymous functions can't call themselves if the recur needs to be not in tail position?
19:22	tomoj	I mean, without writing a Y combinator
19:23	Chouser	you can give a function an internal-only name
19:23	tomoj	right, yeah. but then I tried to switch it to anonymous, and couldn't because I need to recur but not in tail position
19:23	Chouser	((fn zeros [] (lazy-seq (cons 0 (zeros)))))
19:24	Chouser	that name "zeros" isn't available externally, so in that sense it's "anonymous".
19:24	hiredman	,((fn a [x] (if (zero? x) x (a (dec x)))) 1)
19:24	clojurebot	0
19:24	tomoj	I guess this is why the Y combinator exists
19:24	hiredman	…
19:24	Chouser	I guess I'm not quite sure what you're asking. 'recur' can only be used in tail position.
19:25	tomoj	right, I guess I was asking if there was an alternative to recur that just called the current function without needing to be in tail position
19:25	hiredman	tomoj: Yes
19:25	tomoj	but that would be a silly thing to have just to avoid giving a name
19:25	hiredman	,((fn a [x] (if (zero? x) x (a (dec x)))) 1)
19:25	clojurebot	0
19:25	tomoj	hiredman: yeah, I meant truly anonymous
19:25	tomoj	as in, unnamed
19:25	hiredman	it is anonymous
19:26	hiredman	a is just the equivilant of the 'this' pointer
19:26	Chousuke	even an anonymous person has something to refer to himself. :P
19:27	tomoj	well, sure, like 'this' or 'self'
19:27	tomoj	but we don't have that
19:27	hiredman	I think, in fact, at some point all functions just bound to thisfn
19:27	hiredman	tomoj: #$%!@#%$%
19:27	hiredman	we do
19:27	hiredman	(fn a [])
19:27	Chousuke	tomoj: sure we do. (fn self [] (self))
19:27	Chousuke	tomoj: just like in python. :P
19:27	hiredman	if you put a symbol after a, inside the scope of the function, the function is bound to a
19:27	tomoj	right but if you change the name there, you have to go through and change the calls
19:27	tomoj	not that this is a real problem
19:27	Chousuke	tomoj: just like in python :)
19:27	hiredman	…
19:28	tomoj	"recur" is always the same nomatter the function name or whether you've even given it a name
19:28	Chouser	tomoj: just always use (fn thisfn [] ...) and you'll never have to rename your internal uses of thisfn.
19:28	tomoj	but yeah, this isn't actually a problem, I will just put a name there :)
19:29	tomoj	Chouser: true
19:29	Chouser	tomoj: you do know that 'recur' behaves differently from a self-call in the tail position?
19:29	hiredman	fn used to bind thisfn, before it got the ability to bind any name you choose
19:29	tomoj	Chouser: yeah
19:29	tomoj	Chouser: I was wondering if there was something that behaved like a self-call but didn't require giving a name
19:29	tomoj	not binding thisfn is really better, I suppose
19:30	tomoj	(now I realize what I was asking was whether thisfn existed)
19:31	Chouser	the problem with thisfn was when you had nests fns and wanted to call the outer one.
19:32	tomoj	I guess it's unlikely that you'd be using the name "thisfn" elsewhere
19:32	tomoj	but hygiene is good
19:32	tomoj	I could always write afn which binds thisfn
19:45	tomoj	,(letfn [(Y [f] ((fn [x] (f (fn [y] ((x x) y)))) (fn [x] (f (fn [y] ((x x) y)))))) (F [f] (fn [x] (if (zero? x) 1 (* x (f (dec x))))))] ((Y F) 5))
19:45	clojurebot	120
19:45	tomoj	:D
19:49	tomoj	or better,
19:49	tomoj	,(((fn [f] ((fn [x] (f (fn [y] ((x x) y)))) (fn [x] (f (fn [y] ((x x) y)))))) (fn [f] (fn [x] (if (zero? x) 1 (* x (f (dec x))))))) 5)
19:49	clojurebot	120
19:52	somnium	is that maintainable?
19:53	tomoj	well it could be more maintainable
19:53	tomoj	but clojurebot wants everything in one expr
19:53	tomoj	Y never needs to change, and if you separate it out it becomes much cleaner
19:53	tomoj	(but still useless)
19:54	technomancy	there's no function to translate between hyphen-case and camelCase, is there?
19:54	Chouser	hm, I think I wrote one...
20:12	Chouser	nm. I found what I was thinking of but it's broken or something.
21:46	prospero_	is there a function that says whether something is IMeta?
21:46	prospero_	meta? or metable or something
21:48	Chouser	I don't think so. just 'instance?'
21:48	Chouser	,(instance? clojure.lang.IMeta [])
21:48	clojurebot	true
21:48	Chouser	,(instance? clojure.lang.IMeta "")
21:48	clojurebot	false
21:48	prospero_	ok, just wondering if there was a way less tied to the implementation
21:50	Chouser	nope, I think that's it. Interfaces aren't really implementation anyway -- they're interface. :-)
21:51	technomancy	is there a way to programmatically determine if Clojure is running interactively?
21:51	technomancy	I guess you could check for some of the bindings from the repl function
21:52	technomancy	it'd be great if environment developers could agree on a unified way of stating this.
21:52	technomancy	will suggest it on the mailing list.
22:14	Chouser	it could even include repl provider name and version number
22:14	Chouser	so that you could differentiate between :enclojure and :core if you really wanted to
23:03	tomoj	implementing IMeta means the value has metadata?
23:05	Chouser	right, it means you can call 'meta' on it.
23:41	duck1123	This is probably a FAQ I'm missing somewhere, but how do I get my test script to return false on errors?
23:56	tomoj	huh
23:57	tomoj	clojure.test?
23:59	duck1123	If I run a clojure script that executes clojure.test tests, how do I get the script return a -1 on failure
23:59	tomoj	oh, hmm
23:59	tomoj	well you can give a return code with System.exit
23:59	duck1123	I build with maven
23:59	duck1123	and I'm trying to get the plugin to fail on error