#clojure – 2009-08-21

2009-08-21

00:01	cemerick	the night of the mutant hybrid CLASSPATH
00:53	lowlycoder	besides databses/ the sql interfaace, what's a good solution for persistent storage for clojure aplications?
00:53	lowlycoder	something like java hibernate? ...
01:34	tomoj	hmm
01:34	tomoj	maybe it's too late for me to think clearly
01:35	tomoj	in ruby I can do crazy stuff like this: https://gist.github.com/cae3276f892d692f9017
01:35	tomoj	is it just me or is that impossible in clojure?
01:42	Anniepoo	certainly you can make a circular list
01:44	arbscht	a naive translation might look like this http://gist.github.com/171688
01:45	tomoj	ah, yes
01:45	tomoj	I was thinking just in terms of immutable maps
01:48	Anniepoo	LOL
01:48	Anniepoo	Clojure's easy integration of projects occasionally has side effectis
01:49	Anniepoo	The project I'm working on has a weird napkin look look and feel
01:49	Anniepoo	it's migrated into Waterfront
02:14	Anniepoo	Chouser: I think the swing-utils are yours, yes?
02:14	Anniepoo	sorry, that was intended as private
02:55	demas	I'm going to working with text files from clojure (read and write). I will be thankfull if you give me any information, how-to's, examples.
02:57	demas	As I see, Clojure don't have self API for working with files and I need to work with Java classes. Is it right ?
03:00	mikem`_	demas: there's with-open to help you open/close files
03:00	mikem`_	,(doc with-open)
03:00	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); bindings => [name init ...] Evaluates body in a try expression with names bound to the values of the inits, and a finally clause that calls (.close name) on each name in reverse order."
03:02	_mst	clojure.contrib.duck-streams and line-seq are very useful for reading files line by line
03:09	LauJensen	Top of the morning guys
03:15	Fossi	hi LauJensen
03:54	tomoj	duuuude
03:55	tomoj	C-c RET = slime-macroexpand-1 is sweet
06:11	LauJensen	When I thought all hope was lost for America, I found one last thing to love: http://imgur.com/kzoxU.jpg
06:14	opqdonut	auld
07:59	adityo	hey piyush_
07:59	piyush_	hey tyo
08:20	hamza	hey guys, how can i access left field of an insets object insets/left return no such namespace error.
08:25	Chouser	(.left my-insets)
08:26	Chouser	the Foo/bar notation is for either a namespace Foo or a class Foo with a static member bar
08:28	hamza	kk thank you.
08:28	hamza	that worked.
08:39	cark	mhh something i'm not quite sure about with refs
08:39	cark	i have a connection pool
08:39	cark	it's using a persistentqueue
08:39	cark	so i need to peek the queue, then if it's not empty, i can remove the connection from the queue
08:40	cark	should i (ensure clients) before peeking the queue ?
08:41	cark	~paste?
08:41	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
08:41	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
08:42	lisppaste8	cark pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85798
08:42	cark	in other words : does this make sense or is the ensure redundant ?
08:43	Chouser	that's a good question. I still have to think very hard about such things.
08:44	cark	it seems to me that without the ensure, it might be possible that another thread succeeds in modifying the ref between my peeking and my poping
08:44	Chouser	you're going to write to the same ref in either case
08:44	Chouser	right?
08:44	rhickey	if the ref is something you are going to be changing, you need not ensure it. Your transaction works with a snapshot of the world
08:44	cark	yes there is only one ref
08:45	cark	mhh
08:46	rhickey	write skew (and thus the need for ensure) only occurs when you make a decision based on a ref you are not writing and need to make sure the value read is unchanged at the end of your transaction
08:46	cark	allright ! thanks a lot that's precisely what i was not understanding
08:47	rhickey	ensure should rarely be used
08:48	cark	thanks, it makes for easier code in many places
08:50	LauJensen	Ok, so ensure is only in the case where I'm strictly reading, and need to ensure that I get the same value with multiple reads?
08:51	rhickey	LauJensen: no, all transactions work with a snapshot
08:52	rhickey	ensure is for what I said, when you make a decision that effects a write based upon a ref you are not writing, and need to make sure the value you read is no different when your transaction ends
08:52	rhickey	the classic example is, you can make either of two accounts go negative but not both
08:53	rhickey	so a transaction making one negative will have to read the other (to make sure it is not negative), and ensure that is still the case when it finishes
08:54	rhickey	that has nothing to do with seeing different values during the course of your transaction - that never happens
08:55	cark	that's very good information right there
08:57	LauJensen	rhickey: Ok, I gotcha.
08:57	rhickey	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapshot_isolation
08:58	rhickey	except in the section: Making Snapshot Isolation Serializable, rather than fabricate a write/write conflict you can use ensure in Clojure's STM
08:59	rhickey	and should use ensure, as multiple ensures on the same ref don't conflict
08:59	cark	ah i was going to say this was like a fake write
08:59	rhickey	fake writes would conflict
09:00	rhickey	so you might ensure things like permissions, without conflict
09:01	Chouser	ah! that's the first I've understood the benefits of ensure over fake write.
09:01	cark	ok got it
09:02	cark	let's say an half-assed fake write then =P
09:02	rhickey	Chouser: until recently it was just a theoretical promise of the design
09:02	Chouser	fake writes always conflict while ensure only causes retries when something actually changed?
09:02	Chouser	yeah, I saw that change go in, just didn't grok the difference.
09:03	rhickey	ensures conflict with writes, but not with each other
09:05	rhickey	but really the best part about ensures is that the say what you intend, fake writes are confusing
09:06	lisppaste8	raphinou_ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85799
09:06	rhickey	admittedly write skew can be subtle, but snapshot isolation rocks
09:07	raphinou_	In my pasted code, isn't addListener called on the WPushButton instance?
09:07	Chouser	snapshot isoloation is an amazing promise. I hope to get a chance to actually take advantage of it some day. :-)
09:07	raphinou_	it seems to be called to Signal1, but I don't see why
09:08	cark	raphinou_ : usually you get this error when the number of parameter is wrong or at runtime the type of some parameters is wrong
09:08	raphinou_	ok cark, I'll look in that direction
09:09	Chouser	raphinou_: you're calling .addListener on the return value fo WPushButton's 'clicked' method -- is that what you intend?
09:09	cark	ahyes =P
09:10	raphinou_	Chouser: that might be the problem indeed. I'll check!
09:10	cark	maybe use doto
09:10	raphinou_	or should I instanciate the WPushButton in the let?
09:11	cark	(.addListener (doto (WPushButton. ....) .clicked) ...
09:12	raphinou_	I checked and aadListener has to be called on the value returned by clicked
09:12	cark	ah =/
09:12	raphinou_	cark: has the doto form you posted a different meaning or is it the same?
09:13	cark	nope, doto returns its first argument
09:13	raphinou_	ok, thx!
09:13	cark	so it's no good is you need the return value of cllicked
09:16	raphinou_	indeed, but I'll remember it for other uses!
09:17	raphinou_	how do I pass arguments to methods called with ..?
09:18	raphinou_	is this valid ? (.. my_obj method1 (method2 arg1 arg2))
09:18	Chouser	raphinou_: yes
09:18	raphinou_	ok, thx
09:18	Chouser	or: (-> my_obj .method1 (.method2 arg1 arg2))
09:20	cark	i prefer the latter
09:20	cark	easier to read
09:23	lisppaste8	raphinou_ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85802
09:23	raphinou_	here's the java code I try to translate in clojure
09:24	cark	what is Signal1 ?
09:25	LauJensen	raphinou: I can paste a few macros I use for swing apps if you paste?
09:25	LauJensen	hehe.. "if you want"
09:25	raphinou_	:-)
09:25	raphinou_	I'm interested, thought this isn't swing. But interested to look at it!
09:26	raphinou_	Signal1 is a class for implementing a signal/slot system
09:26	LauJensen	pasting
09:26	raphinou_	the whole code is at http://www.webtoolkit.eu/jwt#/src/hello
09:26	cark	i think you want (proxy [Signal1$Listener] ....)
09:26	raphinou_	I'm just learning jwt too, so I can't lean on deep knowledge of that framework....
09:26	lisppaste8	Lau annotated #85802 "swing macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85802#1
09:27	LauJensen	So for button I would eval (onClick button (println "Button has been clicked"))
09:28	raphinou_	cark: I'll look at it, as I don't know that notation Signal1$Listener
09:28	raphinou_	thx LauJensen!
09:28	cark	the $ is for enclosed classes
09:28	cark	hum don't remember the proper name of these
09:29	cark	you might want to fully qualify the name too
09:29	cark	as the rules for importing are a bit strange for these
09:29	LauJensen	np
09:30	raphinou_	yes cark, I'll try the fqname, as it can't resolve with the $
09:30	cark	where is the javadoc =/
09:32	raphinou_	hmm, the Signal1.Listener is an interface
09:32	raphinou_	http://www.webtoolkit.eu/jwt/latest/doc/javadoc/
09:32	cark	well it's a nested interface
09:33	cark	i think you could use it as a nested class from clojure, though i'm not sure about that
09:33	cark	eu.webtoolkit.jwt.Signal1$Listener should do it
09:35	raphinou_	you're right cark, that's working fine!
09:35	raphinou_	thanks!
09:35	cark	great =)
09:35	raphinou_	now checking the code does what I want :-D
09:39	LauJensen	raphinou_: I think its a good idea to annote your pastes with the solution, once you arrive at it. Could be a help for others in the same situation
09:40	raphinou_	ha, good suggestion LauJensen. I usually do it on fora and mailing lists, but I don't have the reflex on pastes. Will do!
09:41	lisppaste8	raphinou_ annotated #85802 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85802#2
09:44	LauJensen	Thats cool man :)
09:54	raphinou_	ok, my code is working fine. Thanks for the help!
09:54	raphinou_	I'll blog about it soon, and post it to the google group
09:55	cark	did you manage the import section of your ns form ok ?
09:55	cark	or did you keep the full qualified name in there ?
09:56	raphinou_	I kept the fully qualified name for now
09:57	cark	the trick is to import the nested class too
09:58	raphinou_	Signal1 is imported, but I can't use Signal1$Listener
09:58	cark	(ns org.bleh (:import [org.foo Signal1$Listener]))
09:58	cark	or something like it
09:59	cark	i wouldn't bother you with it if that was not for this blog post !
09:59	raphinou_	importing Signal1$Listener works
09:59	raphinou_	I juste tested it when you posted suggestion :-)
09:59	cark	hehe ok
10:00	raphinou_	and be sure you don't bother me, I appreciate your help!
10:00	cark	=)
11:05	arohner	lisppaste8:
11:05	arohner	lisppaste8: url
11:05	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
11:08	lisppaste8	arohner pasted "new macro?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85810
11:09	arohner	I'm thinking about writing a macro something like what I posted. Is there anything that already works like that, or a better way to write the original code so that a macro isn't necessary?
11:10	Chouser	arohner: hm, defn allows you to define pre- and post- conditions.
11:10	Chouser	oh, all fns not just defn.
11:11	Chouser	or you could use cond
11:11	cark	where are those pre-conditions documented ?
11:12	arohner	yeah, my problem with cond is I have to state the predicates negatively
11:12	arohner	what I want is sort of the inverse of cond
11:13	Chouser	arohner: I wonder if you can use condp somehow
11:20	arohner	cark: I think here's your documentation, for now
11:20	arohner	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/0ac482878a1dd520cbee2faa0f5f6ab1082ffa76
11:20	cark	ah thank you
11:25	Chouser	(condp (fn [t e] (not t)) nil (pred1) "1 failed" (pred2) "2 failed" "all succeeded")
11:25	Chouser	not very pretty, but maybe better than nested ifs
11:26	AWizzArd	Oh nice, I didn't know that there was a limit of how many chars one can have in one line of code :)
11:27	AWizzArd	Is that a Clojure, Java or Emacs limit? I sit in Slime/Emacs and do: (apply str (repeat 65533 "0"))
11:28	AWizzArd	I copy the generated string and try to paste it into the repl. I get an Exception: java.lang.ClassFormatError: Unknown constant tag 34 in class file user$eval__1913
11:29	AWizzArd	Probably the 65533 chars plus two double-quotes plus EOL break the limit of 2^16 chars per line.
11:31	cark	mhh i would say it's the function size limit of the jvm
11:31	ole3	ist the limit of max arguments to apply
11:32	AWizzArd	the (apply str ..) is not the problem
11:32	cark	i don't think there is a max argument limit in clojure
11:33	cemerick	non-variadic fns have a max arg count of 18
11:34	cemerick	or 20, I forget -- maybe 18 is the limit for proxy method impls
11:36	cark	right, but you may apply an infinite list to a variadic function
11:37	cark	,(apply (fn [& items] (take 2 items)) (repeat :a))
11:37	clojurebot	(:a :a)
11:38	cark	which is neat =)
11:39	cemerick	AWizzArd: (apply str (repeat 65533 "0") works fine for me (aside from printing out 64K zeros) in enclojure
11:40	cark	every time you press enter in the repl you do evaluation
11:40	cark	which means compiling
11:41	cark	so you hit the jvm limit
11:41	Chouser	right, I think it's a class bytecode size limit
11:41	cemerick	it is, but it sounds like emacs/slime is doing something odd when returning values from the REPL
11:42	Chouser	,(count (read-string (str \" (apply str (repeat 7e5 "0")) \")))
11:42	clojurebot	700000
11:42	cark	emacs/clçojure-mode has no trouble returning huge values ... it is sometimes very annoying =/
11:43	Chouser	huh. even eval is ok for a string that size.
11:43	Neronus	And let's not talk about infinite lists
11:43	cark	chouser : nope you're only reading, not evaluating
11:44	Chouser	right, but when I do (eval (read-string ...)) that also works
11:45	cark	that was a mean trick to make my emac print a huge string =P
11:46	Chouser	sorry. (count (eval (read-string ...))) :-)
11:46	AWizzArd	cemerick: do you copy&paste that produced string into the repl?
11:47	cemerick	AWizzArd: yup
11:47	AWizzArd	I also have no problem to generate a very long string and look at it. Emacs shows it. But when I then copy&paste it, only then I get this funny Exception.
11:47	cemerick	There's a class being generated somewhere with that value included literally.
11:48	cemerick	I'll bet the swank interface is using read-string on a vector or map being sent over the wire.
11:48	cark	,(eval (read-string (str $ "print" \" (apply str (repeat 7e5 "0")) \"$)))
11:48	clojurebot	DENIED
11:48	cark	ah
11:48	cark	well try this
11:48	cark	same error
11:49	Neronus	cemerick: How is enclojure these days? Pretty much complete?
11:50	AWizzArd	cark: yes, that also gives me the same error
11:50	cemerick	Neronus: it's pretty darn good. Good remote repl capability, solid editor.
11:51	cark	i stand by the bytecode size explanation
11:51	cemerick	The debugger works, but it's definitely rough around the edges. Same with code completion.
11:51	cark	though that doesn't help you one bit with the problem at hand =)
11:51	AWizzArd	cark: but why does it work for cemerick?
11:51	cemerick	because I'm not using emacs.
11:51	cemerick	or swank, or whatever
11:52	cark	i guess enclojure has a different way of doing repl
11:52	AWizzArd	maybe swank transports huge objects not correctly to the jvm
11:52	cark	there is no swank in my case
11:53	Neronus	cemerick: Well, I'm going to try it. I'm mostly interested in the debugger and java integration. emacs seems to be lacking in that respect
11:53	cemerick	cark: IIRC, enclojure uses a streaming model that doesn't wait for the entire result before printing.
11:53	AWizzArd	cemerick: what OS are you using?
11:54	cemerick	Neronus: I think you'll like it. I give it a 7/10 right now. :-)
11:54	cemerick	AWizzArd: OS X 10.5.x
11:54	Neronus	We'll see once netbeans finished downloading :)
11:54	AWizzArd	funny, now I go to the shell (under Windows) and did a java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl and pasted carks eval example.
11:54	AWizzArd	Even there I get the error. So, it is nothing with emacs/swank.
11:56	Neronus	FWIW it works finde for me (linux, java 6, clojure HEAD)
11:58	AWizzArd	maybe some issue in the jdk for Windows shrugs
11:59	cemerick	AWizzArd: it's possible that different builds of the JVM have different classfile size limits
11:59	cemerick	read-string on large inputs is never safe
12:01	Chouser	cemerick: why is read-string a problem? I thought we'd pinned this on eval?
12:03	cemerick	Chouser: yes, sorry, eval.
12:03	cemerick	I was up late. :-/
12:11	Neronus	cemerick: I downloaded the plugin, installed it in netbeans, restartet netbeans. Am I supposed to be able to create a clojure project now?
12:19	gcv	does Clojure have a way to check if a variable is bound? I'm looking for an equivalent to CL's boundp.
12:19	Chouser	you want to know the difference between (def x) and (def x value) ?
12:19	gcv	exactly
12:21	Chouser	(.isBound (var x))
12:21	Chouser	I think that's as good as it gets
12:22	Chouser	there's also 'defonce'
12:22	Chouser	...which uses .hasRoot, not exactly the same as .isBound
12:23	Chousuke	hm
12:23	Chousuke	I'm getting a weird error when trying to (require) my reader namespace :/
12:24	gcv	interesting. .isBound is not bad, but it returns false for things which have been declare'd, rather than def'ed.
12:24	Chousuke	it says "can't def syntax-quote because clojure.lang.reader refers to #'clojure.core/syntax-quote"
12:25	Chouser	gcv: (declare v) is the same as (def v)
12:26	Chouser	they imply slightly different things, but there's no way to tell which was used to create v
12:26	stuartsierra	Chousuke: I think syntax-quote is the expansion of the ` reader macro.
12:27	Chousuke	stuartsierra: nah, it's my own macro.
12:27	gcv	Chouser: got it, makes sense. thank you.
12:27	Chousuke	in the java reader ` expands to what the result of a syntax-quote macro would be
12:27	Chouser	the difference with .hasRoot will be for thread-local bindings
12:28	stuartsierra	Chousuke: but if you try to define syntax-quote in your clojure.lang.reader ns, it will conflict with the definition in clojure.core.
12:28	Chousuke	stuartsierra: the only definition is in clojure.core and it's mine :/
12:28	stuartsierra	Oh, then I have no idea what's going on. :)
12:29	Chousuke	it's working just fine from the repl. just not when I try to create a new namespace which requires my reader namespace
12:29	Chousuke	and that error is weird
12:31	Chousuke	actually. let me just try rebuilding the clojure.jar...
12:32	Chousuke	yeah. that did it :P
12:45	wavister	is it impossible to sandbox multiple code bases within the same jvm?
12:47	stuartsierra	It's quite possible, there are Java libs dedicated to this.
12:52	wavister	ok. i've been looking for a class that i could instantiate that would encapsulate a clojure codebase, like x = new clojure.main(); x.evaluateCode(stuff);
12:52	cemerick	Neronus: There is a clojure project type, but I don't use it.
12:52	wavister	but maybe i'm looking for the wrong thing
12:52	cemerick	I just use a regular j2se projects.
12:53	cemerick	I think clojure projects are just a thin veneer around j2se projects
12:54	wavister	cemerick: projects? is this a design pattern i'm not familiar with?
12:54	stuartsierra	wavister: You can't do that because Clojure is a compiler, not an interpreter. There is no "instance" of Clojure running in the JVM.
12:54	cemerick	wavister: IDE project types
12:57	wavister	stuartsierra: ok, but if I have a program running and i have some clojure code, how do I call B from A, assuming the clojure code is neither compiled, nor written to be used from java?
12:58	stuartsierra	You can use the methods in clojure.lang.RT to load and evaluate Clojure code source code.
12:58	cemerick	wavister: clojure lib A can require B and make calls to it directly. It's a lot simpler than it sounds like you're thinking it is...
13:00	cemerick	oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, as stuartsierra said, use RT.load to load your namespaces, and then you can use RT.var to access and invoke different vars defined therein.
13:00	stuartsierra	That's for calling Clojure code from Java code, of course.
13:01	wavister	ok I think that's what I need to look into then
13:01	wavister	there's a lot of methods in RT. looks like much of the api...
13:02	wavister	can I load lines of a codebase incrementally?
13:02	cemerick	very little of it is relevant from a user perspective
13:02	stuartsierra	Yeah, the important ones are, as cemerick said, RT.var and RT.load. You may also need Var.invoke.
13:03	wavister	ok
13:07	cark	what's the typep predicate in clojure again ?
13:07	cark	hum got it
13:08	cark	instance?
13:41	Chousuke	ooh.
13:42	Chousuke	my reader can now read its own source, and evaluating the read data structures does not throw exceptions or screw up the reader
13:43	Chouser	nice
13:44	Chousuke	it's still missing bits and pieces now.
13:44	Chousuke	though* :P
13:44	Chousuke	for example, I still don't support \uNNNN
13:44	Chousuke	but at least it works!
13:57	Chousuke	next milestone, reading core.clj :P
13:57	Chousuke	but I think I'll leave that for another day.
13:58	cark	nice work, though i wonder how is performance
13:59	Chousuke	well, it doesn't take years. but it's entirely unoptimised at the moment :)
13:59	Chouser	no reason it has to be worse than the java one
14:01	cark	i hope so
14:01	cark	as binary serialization is unavailable right now, i use the printer
14:02	cark	and read back
14:02	Chouser	cark: keywords serialize now. is there something else you're missing?
14:02	cark	oh i didn't know that
14:03	Chouser	as of last night
14:03	Chouser	:-)
14:03	cark	mhh yes, how about lazy sequences ?
14:03	Chousuke	well, it does take a second to read itself, which is pretty slow
14:03	Chousuke	but I think it has lots of room for optimisation
14:03	cemerick	cark: I'm going to be tackling binary serialization shortly.
14:03	cemerick	I can't imagine it's going to be particularly difficult.
14:04	Chousuke	I guess the biggest problem is going to be that it generates lots of small vectors
14:04	cark	i wouldn't mind if infinite sequences serialization was to run out of memory
14:04	cark	i guess that's up to the caller to make sure of that kind of stuff
14:04	Chousuke	I'll have to get rid of that... but then it means I have to figure out some other way to pass "state" around
14:05	cark	Chousuke : do you have your work on github ?
14:05	Chousuke	yeah
14:05	Chouser	I wouldn't assume creating a lot of small vectors are a performance hit -- measure before you eliminate
14:05	ericthorsen	hmm...gen-class method overload resolution seems undocumented?
14:05	Chousuke	cark: http://github.com/Chousuke/clojure/tree/clojure-reader
14:06	Chouser	Chousuke: but if they are, maybe newnew would help.
14:06	cark	Chousuke : thanks
14:06	Chousuke	but I make no guarantee that this branch won't go away due to reorganisation or a rebase :P
14:06	Chousuke	I think I'll have to split out the syntax-quote macro into its own patch at least.
14:07	Chousuke	the code is also "optimistic" in that it assumes well-formed symbols etc.
14:08	Chousuke	hm, actually, it doesn't take namespaces into account for symbols at all.
14:19	duck1123	is it better to have your project's config.clj file be a properly namespaced def statement, or a raw data structure that can be read and assigned to a var?
14:19	duck1123	currently, I've been going with the former, but I'm not so sure
14:22	cemerick	we're upgrading our version of clojure over the weekend. Is there any consensus as to the most recent stable point?
14:22	Chouser	never found a config system I like. Either they machine-writable and you can't do any branches or computation in them, or they're code and can be updated cleanly via a gui or tool. Or they're some scary combination thereof.
14:24	duck1123	my config file is currently only my db info (I know, there are better ways) passwords for my XMPP connection, and a handful of bools
14:26	Chouser	I guess unless you specifically want to allow evaluation of stuff (computing config values based on other values, custom variables, external info, etc.) just reading will be faster and has the remote possibility of being written out again (minus comments and formatting).
14:29	duck1123	That was what was making me think of this. I want to do a install page for my app if I decide to open-source it, and the way most sites I've seen have done it was to write back to the config file. That won't work as well with me having a namespaced config var (as source)
14:30	cark	why not just use an ini file ?
14:30	Chouser	ew
14:30	cark	hehe well it's hackable by the customer
14:30	cark	and writable with tools
14:31	Chouser	ini can't handle structure
14:31	duck1123	I'd use yaml before using ini, but it still feels a shame with clojure having such a great representation
14:31	cark	if you have structure it's not configuration anymore, it's data
14:31	Chouser	you might think you just have a list of simple vars, but then one of them has to be a list of things and suddenly ini hurts.
14:36	duck1123	What's the best solution if I want to create precisely-formatted clojure code files? I'm thinking of code generators (ala Rails)
14:36	cark	i think c.c.pprint has a code formatter option
14:36	Licenser_	aloa everyone
14:37	cark	but aren't we supposed to use macros for code generation ?
14:37	duck1123	I've thought about c.c.pprint, but I figured it wouldn't be able to generate quite what I want.
14:38	cark	macros remove your preprocessing stage
14:38	duck1123	cark: macros only take you so far, they can't do the (ns) without being both messy and brilliant
14:39	cark	macros can be messy i give you that =)
14:39	cark	then again code generation is messy too
14:39	duck1123	my use case is adding the 3 relevant files for a MVC architecture as well as generating schema files etc
14:40	Chouser	I'd try really hard to do that without writing new code to files on disk.
14:40	Chouser	personally
14:41	Chouser	what's a schema file? not clojure code?
14:42	duck1123	well, sql code currently, but I've been wanting to switch that to clojure code
14:43	duck1123	Basically, I want something to generate anything I need to add a new model to my app
14:44	Licenser_	duck1123: working on a rails like framework?
14:44	duck1123	basically, it's mostly what I've come up with after working with compojure
14:45	cark	the one time i tried rails, as soon as i understood it was pre-generating code i deleted the whole thing =)
14:45	duck1123	Adding a new model involes doing exactly the same thing to 3 new files in 3 different folders, with only the names changed
14:46	hiredman	there is clinorm, but that doesn't seem very active
14:46	duck1123	I use my fork of clj-record
14:47	duck1123	it works really well because I can multi-method dispatch based on the type of record I have.
14:47	hiredman	ah
14:48	hiredman	I thought clnorm looked kind of emptier then I remembered, I must have been remembering clj-record
14:48	duck1123	clj-record is the more complete one, I think. We just got a googlegroup the other day
15:01	Licenser_	I must say the more I look into it the more I start to like clojure
15:02	duck1123	there's a lot to like about clojure
15:02	luis	Licenser_: Lisp is fun. :-)
15:02	Licenser_	God wrote in Lisp!
15:03	duck1123	I would have to say, programming in clojure has made me more aware of performace characteristics of different datatypes
15:03	Chouser	if so, it wasn't Clojure. Lisp may be built on itself, but Clojure is built on the JVM.
15:03	Licenser_	And yes Lisp has a certain charm, while I only got drawn to look into CLojure since they promised a nice suport for paralelism or what ever the fancy word for that was
15:03	luis	Chouser: yawn, is this that Clojure-is-not-a-pure-lisp rant?
15:04	Chouser	luis: I prefer clojure to any lisp I've ever tried.
15:04	duck1123	Licenser_: I assume you know http://xkcd.com/224/
15:04	luis	Chouser: ok, just checking. :-)
15:05	Licenser_	Yes I knwo all the XKCD comic :P but I was reffering to a song
15:05	rsynnott	But did god write in lisp-1 or lisp-2? You could get a good crusade or two out of that :)
15:05	Licenser_	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OjTPj7K54
15:05	Chouser	luis: :-) but Clojure picks up a whole lot from Java -- mostly (but not entirely) good.
15:05	duck1123	god writes in lisp-7, his version of CL is that odd
15:05	rsynnott	along with the odd schism over how lisp-2s are almost never actually lisp-2 ;)
15:06	rsynnott	normal cl is about lisp-7
15:06	Licenser_	I can use print and not System.out.print() one thing that makes it a LOT better then Java in my eyes
15:07	duck1123	Licenser_: it gets better when you consider you can then re-bind out and print to whatever you want
15:07	Licenser_	danlarkin: I know, that is very very very nice ^^
15:07	duck1123	wrong dan
15:08	rsynnott	In reality, of course, he probably got an exemption and got to write it in C, just like all of those military contractors who were meant to be using ADA :)
15:08	Licenser_	plus it does hot have that ugly mixup of primitiv and object data dypes that java has - at least I didn't stumbled into that yet
15:08	Chouser	actually it does :-/
15:09	Licenser_	I quit o.O
15:09	Chouser	nah, it won't hurt too bad.
15:09	Licenser_	I hate it, hate hate hate hate it. It is one of the things I dislike most about java
15:10	Chouser	you can generally ignore the primitive types unless you need them for memory or time efficiency
15:10	Licenser_	the second you have to use that ugly thing called Integer in java you can toss all your code out of the window and hang your self in an infinit loop
15:10	duck1123	You only really get into it when you start reading the "... fast as java" threads
15:10	luis	Licenser_: it's useful to have unboxed types. Java makes it a pain though.
15:11	luis	Licenser_: though it's better nowadays with automatic (un)boxing isn't it?
15:11	Licenser_	not sure, didn't ever touched Integer again since I discovered that + isn't working for it
15:12	Chousuke	hm? :/
15:12	Licenser_	And I likely will never do it until they allow me to at least add two Integers without chaning one gazillion function calls and typecasts. It's like an embargo against silly use of Objects
15:12	Chousuke	ah, in java. :P
15:12	luis	Licenser_: seems like you haven't used Java with automatic (un)boxing. It's almost bearable now.
15:13	Licenser_	Chousuke: don't worry in Clojure it works, it was the second thing I tried.
15:13	luis	Licenser_: works in Java too.
15:13	Licenser_	luis: I will try that, if I ever see a reason to do so.
15:14	Licenser_	Then again to try that I'd have to create a new class and all that horible things
15:14	hiredman	http://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/fixnums_in_the_vm some day
15:16	Licenser_	luis: now I'm pretty impressed
15:16	luis	Licenser_: how so?
15:16	Licenser_	that actually works quite well.
15:16	luis	Licenser_: impressed by Java? :)
15:17	Licenser_	I let text mate generate my all the silly classes and functions I needed to test it and I acntually it can do: (new Interger(2) + 1.2)
15:17	Licenser_	That is like a huge leap into the direction of being not entirely horrible
15:18	luis	Or you can just avoid Java. That works pretty well too.
15:18	Licenser_	I know, but at least I learned something new today something I'd not expected :P
15:18	rsynnott	hiredman: in time for the mars landing and fusion power, no doubt ;)
15:18	Chouser	,(+ 2 (double 1.2))
15:18	clojurebot	3.2
15:19	hiredman	rsynnott: :/
15:20	hiredman	I have pictures from one of the mars rovers as my desktop background
15:20	Licenser_	Chouser: I didn't expected it not to work in clojure, I didn't even expected it not to work in Java when I first ran into this problem which is why it was so extremely frustrating back then.
15:20	rsynnott	or in time for the sun engulfing earth, if you want fixnums on java _on a mac_
15:20	Chouser	Licenser_: I understand. I just thought I'd show you the clojure equiv.
15:21	Licenser_	Chouser: thanks :)
15:21	Chouser	2 by itself is an Integer. 1.2 would be a Double, but (double 1.2) is a primitive.
15:21	hiredman	rsynnott: shrug
15:21	Licenser_	ah sneaky
15:21	Licenser_	so I could do:
15:21	Licenser_	,(+ (int 2) (double 1.2))
15:21	clojurebot	3.2
15:21	Licenser_	yay
15:21	Licenser_	<- starts to learn ^^
15:22	Chousuke	autoboxing happens though.
15:22	rsynnott	(apple has finally embraced java 1.6, but only quite recently)
15:22	Chousuke	rsynnott: and only on 64-bit platforms :P
15:22	rsynnott	well, yes, but you can't expect miracles
15:22	Chousuke	but I suppose that doesn't matter much.
15:22	cemerick	do they even sell 32-bit macs anymore?
15:23	Chousuke	no :)
15:23	cschreiner	how to perform a (range 1.0 10.0 0.1) ?
15:23	rsynnott	Apple used actually be a big fan of java, but they've taken to ignoring it of late
15:23	Licenser_	I want java 1.6!
15:23	rsynnott	cemerick: not since 2006, I think
15:23	cschreiner	since range only accepts integers
15:23	cemerick	they've been churning out updates pretty good lately
15:23	stuartsierra	,(take 5 (range 1.0 10.0 0.1))
15:23	cemerick	esp. if you watch the dev previews
15:23	clojurebot	(1.0 1.1 1.2000000000000002 1.3000000000000003 1.4000000000000004)
15:23	cschreiner	aha
15:23	rsynnott	ah, but what happens when 1.7 turns up? :)
15:24	Licenser_	downloads
15:24	cschreiner	why this behaviour?
15:24	stuartsierra	cschreiner: floating-point math.
15:24	cschreiner	ok, how do I round? like (round %) ?
15:24	stuartsierra	,(take 5 (range 1.0M 10.0M 0.1M))
15:24	clojurebot	(1.0M 1.1M 1.2M 1.3M 1.4M)
15:25	kotarak	Math/round
15:25	cschreiner	nice, thanks
15:25	stuartsierra	my last example uses BigDecimals
15:25	Chouser	,(range 1 3 1/10)
15:25	clojurebot	(1 11/10 6/5 13/10 7/5 3/2 8/5 17/10 9/5 19/10 2 21/10 11/5 23/10 12/5 5/2 13/5 27/10 14/5 29/10)
15:25	cschreiner	hey
15:25	cschreiner	that IS nice
15:25	Chousuke	ratios!
15:25	Chousuke	I almost forgot they exist.
15:25	Licenser_	yes it is very nicely nice
15:25	hiredman	http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4617197 Priority: 5-Very Low
15:26	hiredman	I love how full product version is java 1.3
15:27	weissj	i get the feeling that calling create-ns inside a let is a bad thing to do? for some reason the namespaces end up not being created?
15:27	hiredman	weissj: eh?
15:28	weissj	i guess i better pastie, hiredman, 1 wec
15:28	weissj	sec
15:28	hiredman	,(let [] (create-ns 'bob))
15:28	clojurebot	#<Namespace bob>
15:29	kotarak	,(let [foo (create-ns 'alice)] foo)
15:29	clojurebot	#<Namespace alice>
15:29	weissj	,(all-ns)
15:29	clojurebot	(#<Namespace clojure.set> #<Namespace hiredman.sandbox> #<Namespace hiredman.schedule> #<Namespace hiredman.clojurebot.seenx> #<Namespace hiredman.clojurebot.dice> #<Namespace hiredman.clojurebot.sb> #<Namespace org.danlarkin.json.decoder> #<Namespace hiredman.clojurebot.delicious> #<Namespace user> #<Namespace hiredman.clojurebot.google> #<Namespace clojure.main> #<Namespace org.danlarkin.json> #<Namespace clojure.core>
15:29	weissj	how come they are not there
15:29	cschreiner	,(map #((.round Math (* % 10)))(take 5 (range 1.0 10.0 0.1)))
15:29	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: round for class java.lang.Class
15:29	kotarak	weissj: obviously create-ns is not ns. as create-struct is not defstruct
15:30	cschreiner	any hint?
15:30	kotarak	cschreiner: Math/round
15:30	hiredman	,(.contains (all-ns) (create-ns 'bob))
15:30	clojurebot	true
15:30	hiredman	it is there
15:31	weissj	hiredman: am i blind? i don't see it
15:31	cschreiner	kotarak: no
15:31	cschreiner	, (map #((. Math/round (* % 10)))(take 5 (range 1.0 10.0 0.1)))
15:31	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to find static field: round in class java.lang.Math
15:31	kotarak	,(map #(Math/round (* % 10)) (take 5 (range 1.0 10.0 0.1)))
15:31	clojurebot	(10 11 12 13 14)
15:31	hiredman	weissj: clojurebot obviously elides output after a certain length
15:32	weissj	hiredman: oh ok
15:32	hiredman	you can tell because there is no closing paren
15:32	lisppaste8	weissj pasted "title" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85831
15:32	cschreiner	oh, the parantesis
15:32	hiredman	~map
15:32	clojurebot	map is LAZY
15:32	kotarak	cschreiner: and the dot
15:32	weissj	hiredman, when i run the code i pasted, i don't see the printlns
15:33	weissj	well i see the first one, println 'hi
15:33	Licenser_	~Licenser_
15:33	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:33	cschreiner	so in this case the dot does not denote anything?
15:33	Licenser_	I want him to say Licenser_ is LAZY :(
15:33	hiredman	weissj: let me do this again
15:33	hiredman	~map
15:33	clojurebot	map is LAZY
15:33	hiredman	ugh
15:33	weissj	oh right. :)
15:33	hiredman	and def is altering the global namespace
15:34	hiredman	so using def inside a function is very icky
15:34	weissj	hiredman: i am not sure how else to do it
15:34	weissj	i can't do those defs until after i've loaded my properties
15:35	kotarak	cschreiner: static class methods are called with a /: (Math/round ...) not (.round Math ...) the letter would call the .round method on the Class instance denoting Math, which doesn't exist and hence gives you the error you wrote above
15:35	hiredman	weissj: sure you can
15:35	hiredman	they are all atoms, so they are mutable
15:35	weissj	hiredman: oh i see, i can def them as nil first
15:35	Licenser_	well see you all later
15:36	cschreiner	kotarak: ok
15:36	cschreiner	thanks for clearing that out
15:36	kotarak	cschreiner: clojure.org/java_interop
15:36	kotarak	IIRC
15:39	cschreiner	what is the (static?) java method for rounding with decimals?
15:40	kotarak	cschreiner: you mean to a certain precision?
15:40	cschreiner	yes
15:40	cschreiner	so my list would look like (0.01 0.02 0.03 ...)
15:41	weissj	hiredman: that plus the (doall (map ...)) fixed it, thanks!
15:42	kotarak	cschreiner: dunno, there is with-precision
15:42	kotarak	(doc with-precision)
15:42	clojurebot	"([precision & exprs]); Sets the precision and rounding mode to be used for BigDecimal operations. Usage: (with-precision 10 (/ 1M 3)) or: (with-precision 10 :rounding HALF_DOWN (/ 1M 3)) The rounding mode is one of CEILING, FLOOR, HALF_UP, HALF_DOWN, HALF_EVEN, UP, DOWN and UNNECESSARY; it defaults to HALF_UP."
15:43	kotarak	Hmm.. dunno
15:43	cschreiner	so you set this locally?
15:43	cschreiner	like, inside a (do ) block
15:43	kotarak	(with-precision 2 (do-things) (do-more-things))
15:44	kotarak	cschreiner: no do block necessary
15:44	cschreiner	Ah
15:44	cschreiner	hmm, helps to actually read the definiton ;-)
15:44	cschreiner	yeah, that solves it, I think
15:45	kotarak	cschreiner: Everything with "& body" in the arglist doesn't need a do.
15:45	cschreiner	right
15:45	kotarak	,(:arglists ^#'for)
15:45	clojurebot	([seq-exprs body-expr])
15:53	cemerick	is there really any hope of getting fixnums on the jvm anytime soon? I thought that was effectively a pipe dream.
15:54	wtetzner	,(rest [1])
15:54	clojurebot	()
15:55	wtetzner	i thought if there were no more items, a sequence was supposed to return nil?
15:55	wtetzner	,(first (rest [1]))
15:55	clojurebot	nil
15:55	kotarak	,(next [1])
15:55	clojurebot	nil
15:55	wtetzner	oh
15:55	hiredman	~lazier
15:55	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:55	hiredman	~lazy
15:55	clojurebot	lazy is hard
15:55	hiredman	bah
15:55	kotarak	wtetzner: http://clojure.org/lazy
15:56	hiredman	also http://clojure.org/lazier
15:56	wtetzner	thanks
15:56	hiredman	but I think both pages speak of the change as something brand new, but the change was pre-1.0 so it's been around for months now
15:56	wtetzner	ok
16:03	Chouser	in 18 months there will be a public draft of the results of considering whether it is practical to add new features to support networking, threads, internationalization, foreign-function interfaces, etc. for a "large" scheme language.
16:03	Chouser	we'd better watch out.
16:03	Chouser	http://scheme-reports.org/2009/working-group-2-charter.html
16:03	hiredman	snort
16:03	hiredman	LtU has a thread on it
16:03	Chousuke	wait, results of considering whether it's practical?
16:04	luis	Chouser: Scheme is a fine language.
16:04	cemerick	eh, I can't bag on the schemers
16:04	cemerick	They'll probably be around long after CL and clojure are gone
16:05	kotarak	Yes. Scheme is a nice language. I liked for its small core (as I like Clojure for that reason (among others)). I'm not sure I like R6RS, though...
16:06	luis	kotarak: saying Clojure has a small core (being a JVM language) is a bit disingenious.
16:06	Chouser	luis: depends on whether you're weighing the whole package or trying to maintain the code base.
16:06	hiredman	it is small, compared to say scala
16:07	Chousuke	the JVM is not counted into the "core". it's something Clojure gets for free. :)
16:07	kotarak	luis: how does the JVM influence the core of CLojure? Is Basic a huge language, because it runs on Windows?
16:08	stuartsierra	Is there a fn like select-keys but that removes the given keys?
16:08	hiredman	reduce+dissoc?
16:08	Chouser	,(dissoc {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3 :d 4} :a :c :d)
16:08	clojurebot	{:b 2}
16:09	uninverted	Anybody know why "slime-complete-symbol" in emacs with slime doesn't work with clojure?
16:09	hiredman	or just dissoc
16:09	stuartsierra	Right, dissoc, thanks.
16:09	danlei	uninverted: works for me
16:09	uninverted	donlei: hmm...
16:10	danlei	uninverted: cvs upped slime, pulled swank-clouren and clojure-mode today (clojure.jar also HEAD)
16:10	luis	kotarak: I'm using the wrong terminology perhaps. What do you call all that java.lang.* stuff?
16:11	danlei	*swank-clojure
16:11	cemerick	luis: Java is certainly clojure's only target at the moment, but that will change in relatively short order
16:11	hiredman	useful for java interop
16:11	hiredman	well, there is Clojure.NET
16:12	wtetzner	luis: the stuff you import using java.lang etc. is accessing libraries
16:12	hiredman	and the currently broken clojurescript
16:12	wtetzner	it's not part of the core of the language
16:12	cemerick	yeah, a .NET target that tracks head will probably the first alternative target
16:12	hiredman	wtetzner: actually java.lang.* is auto imported :P
16:13	wtetzner	so then it's an auto-imported library :)
16:13	uninverted	danlei: That's not really an option for me; I've got a weird slime/emacs setup held together with twigs and scotch tape, so updating would be hard.
16:13	clojurebot	for is not used often enough.
16:13	luis	wtetzner: a lot of the language seems to defined in terms of what's in java.lang.*; nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out.
16:13	Chousuke	luis: actually, most of it is defined in terms of clojure's own interfaces.
16:13	Chousuke	luis: but yeah, there are many java dependencies.
16:14	Chousuke	but those can be eliminated :)
16:14	luis	I'm sure they won't be hard to eliminate, sure.
16:14	kotarak	luis: In Scheme there are strings. In Clojure there are Strings. Does it matter, that Clojure uses a java.lang.String?
16:15	danlei	uninverted: hm, I've followed head for clojure-mode, swank-clojure, ccl, and slime head since ... a long time, without bigger problems at any point in time. I'd guess it's your combination/duct-tape which somehow messes things up.
16:15	stuartsierra	luis: Rich's usual answer usually goes something like, Java will remain the primary platform for Clojure in the near future. But we will try to make it easier to port to other platforms.
16:15	luis	kotarak: suppose java.lang.String is really bloated (I have no idea if it is), then it matters, right?
16:16	Chousuke	the only problem with java.lang.String is that it's final. :/
16:16	Chouser	insufficiently bloated? :-)
16:17	stuartsierra	The advantage to java.lang.String is that it's tightly integrated with the JVM, so it's generally quite efficient.
16:17	Chousuke	yeah. Though interface injection would be cool.
16:17	luis	stuartsierra: sure. Nobody is arguing that.
16:17	stuartsierra	That is, Sun knows lots of people will be using java.lang.String, so it's in their interest to make it as efficient as possible. And they can't do that if people can extend it.
16:17	stuartsierra	But I agree interface injection would be cool.
16:18	Chousuke	it'd be really neat if it were possible to add support for new interfaces, even with the restriction that you can't add new fields.
16:18	uninverted	danlei: Probably. Does "Synchronous Lisp Evaluation Aborted" mean anything to you?
16:20	danlei	uninverted: no, sorry
16:22	stuartsierra	Would interface injection require changes to the VM, or could it be done in Clojure?
16:22	danlei	uninverted: since I'm on cygwin emacs since (a few months) I'm using swank/swank-clojure + slime-connect, maybe that does make a difference, but I don't know; no bigger problems here (despite read/read-line/... never returning in a slime repl)
16:22	Chouser	stuartsierra: it would be a jvm feature, I believe.
16:23	stuartsierra	ah, no fun then.
16:23	cemerick	stuartsierra: it's ostensibly coming in jdk 7
16:23	stuartsierra	Really? Interesting, didn't know that.
16:23	uninverted	danlei: I have the same problem with read(line) :\|.
16:24	danlei	uninverted: Rich's tip: press return :D seriously: I'd love to get that fixed ...
16:24	kotarak	well, we can define an interface in terms on multimethods and then do a (derive String ::Foo), or do I get the idea of interface injection wrong (besides that would not be a java interface, of course)
16:25	cemerick	stuartsierra: or, to be clear, it's part of JSR 292, and is #4 in the MLVM priority list: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/subprojects.html
16:25	danlei	uninverted: atm I've no idea where the problem lies (concerning read/...)
16:26	Chouser	kotarak: you're right -- clojure already has this level of flexibility for its own constructs. But if you want the speed of a java method dispatch, you need the jvm to add this support.
16:26	Chousuke	kotarak: It'd be neat to have Strings support IMeta for example.
16:26	clojurebot	for is not used enough
16:26	kotarak	Chouser: I'm happy with multimethods. :) Quite happy actually. :)
16:26	uninverted	danlei: Also, (do (print "foo") (read)) doesn't work, it reads before printing.
16:26	hiredman	it would be nice to, for instance, inject Seqable into String
16:27	Chouser	Chousuke: well, that would require a metadata field, right?
16:27	Chousuke	yeah... with no-data interface injection that wouldn't be possible I guess.
16:27	uninverted	danlei: Not just in emacs, either
16:27	hiredman	uninverted: use println
16:27	Chouser	but regex.Pattern could be IFn
16:27	Chousuke	unless you had a global metadata repository for strings.
16:27	Chousuke	which would be icky
16:27	danlei	uninverted: sounds like flushing problem
16:27	hiredman	uninverted: output streams need to be flushed, a newline or flush will flush
16:28	danlei	but the read/... problem has nothing to do with this (i think)
16:28	danlei	just (read) will freeze slime for me
16:28	hiredman	which read problem?
16:29	danlei	hiredman: read/read-line freeze the repl for me since a few weeks
16:29	kotarak	hiredman: a SLIME problem
16:29	hiredman	uninverted: use printlnh
16:29	hiredman	er
16:29	hiredman	oh
16:30	hiredman	yeah, you emacers chose your boat
16:30	danlei	emacs is clearly the best option, even if read is broken atm
16:30	danlei	but that's just taste, nothing to argue about
16:31	kotarak	It wouldn't work with VimClojure also. Since Vim just sends data from a buffer. You can't pass though stdin... So no read from the buffer repl.
16:31	Chousuke	I'm pretty sure slime has some tunable for that anyway :P
16:34	danlei	well, slime is kind of a fast moving target, I'm sure I could get it back to work if I just check out some version ~1month ago, but I'll just wait for the open-source-fairy :)
16:34	Chousuke	emacs has convinced me that I need a better keyboard though.
16:35	uninverted	Chousuke: How so?
16:36	Raynes	I has a Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard.
16:37	Chousuke	well, the modifier keys are asymmetrically placed and rather small
16:37	uninverted	Raynes: Microsoft and it's keyboards are like McDonalds and Chipotle.
16:37	Chousuke	on my macbook keyboard that is.
16:37	Chousuke	currently I have caps lock as meta and cmd keys act as controls
16:39	Chousuke	danlei: the meta is needed less :P
16:39	danlei	hm, in emacs, I use meta all the time
16:39	Chousuke	control combos are usually more complicated
16:40	danlei	hm, ok
16:40	uninverted	I use CL as control. On my keyboard there isn't that weird gulf.
16:40	Raynes	I bet I can C-x C-f faster than Chousuke
16:40	danlei	:)
16:41	danlei	editor war avoided, keyboard layout war started :)
16:41	Chousuke	Raynes: I dunno, my right thumb rests on cmd and left index finger on f :P
16:41	stuartsierra	I love Emacs with my Kinesis Contour Dvorak, worth every penny.
16:41	Chouser	stuartsierra: that puts the modifiers under your thumbs, right?
16:42	stuartsierra	yes, all of them, plus space, backspace, delete, & enter
16:42	danlei	sounds nice
16:42	uninverted	I'd get one if not for the price and inertia.
16:43	Chouser	I'm not that discontent
16:43	Chousuke	In any case, I'm pretty much completely converted from vim nowadays :P
16:43	stuartsierra	Mine's lasted for 7-8 years, and I'm not gentle with it.
16:43	danlei	but doesn't have ALL modifiers under the thumbs make you move your whole wrist kind a lot?
16:44	stuartsierra	No, the keys are clustered, so you never move your wrists at all.
16:44	stuartsierra	http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm
16:44	Chousuke	emacs is just forcing me to push its limits.
16:44	stuartsierra	It does require re-learning how to type. I have tendinitis, so every little bit helps.
16:45	danlei	stuartsierra: ah, I see, really looks useful
16:45	Chousuke	with vim I never bothered to do anything beyond basic syntax highlighting because any addons were always a bother to set up :/
16:45	uninverted	I've always thought about using vim or viper-mode but I really don't type fast enough for it to be worth it.
16:46	kotarak	Relearning is so hard.... I tried NEO. (A layout especially for german). But had more trouble getting the hard-wired motions out of the way, than doing productive work. :(
16:46	Chousuke	viper mode is nice, though it doesn't agree with paredit
16:46	Chousuke	and paredit is pure bliss :P
16:46	kotarak	Chousuke: I found emacs plugins much harder to setup than plugins for Vim. Most just work.
16:46	danlei	kotarak: that's what keeps me from alternative layouts too
16:47	Chousuke	kotarak: Hmm. well, you know vimscript so maybe that helps :)
16:47	uninverted	kotarak: Emacs sort of requires you to learn elisp, but I don't think you really need any VimScript for vim.
16:48	Chousuke	I'm not an expert with vim, and emacs is more self-documenting.
16:48	Chouser	:w is vimscript, isn't it?
16:48	uninverted	Chouser: :)
16:48	kotarak	Chouser: hehe
16:48	danlei	I've used vi(m) for quite a long time, and was pretty assured that it rules as an editor, but when I started using (and knowing) emacs, I just thought of vi as a kind of moded keyboard-layout. the editor "system" itself is, imho, inferior. (just MY opinion and personal experience with both religions :)
16:48	kotarak	Let's say Vimscript is a super set of ex commands
16:49	Chouser	I'm willing to abandon vim for something sufficiently better. I'm just not sure emacs is that.
16:49	rzoom	can i send an email to clojure-dev without being a member?
16:49	Chousuke	and elisp is a plus too. I can look at elisp code and understand it because it's lisp :/
16:49	Chouser	not sure I'm willing anymore to abandon vim-like key bindings.
16:49	uninverted	Chouser: You don't really have to abandon it. Look at viper-mode
16:49	Chousuke	lisps aren't fundamentally that different from each other. :P
16:49	Chouser	rzoom: I don't think so
16:49	Chousuke	at least, until you get to details.
16:50	Chouser	uninverted: I have -- it feels pretty clumsy.
16:50	kotarak	ELisp is a plus, but modal editing is better. I'm also yet to find a better alternative. Emacs definitively is not.....
16:50	Chouser	uninverted: lots of modes don't work quite.
16:51	Chouser	I've been meaning to look at waterfront. anybody using that?
16:51	kotarak	I had a look at the implementation, but don't use it.
16:51	kotarak	I was almost up to start cultjure. ;P Yet another project doomed to death...
16:52	uninverted	You can get something a lot like waterfront in emacs with slime and a lot of cusom keybindings.
16:52	uninverted	* custom
16:52	kotarak	VimClojure is sufficient for me....
16:52	Chouser	i want something a lot like emacs in waterfront
16:52	Chouser	well, in clojure.
16:52	kotarak	If just Vim had a better scripting language...
16:53	kotarak	...eg. Clojure :)
16:53	Chouser	hm... there are bindings for everything...
16:53	danlei	kotarak: Cljim? :)
16:53	kotarak	Jep. :)#
16:53	uninverted	Chouser: I agree. Clojure is just about the perfect language for an editor. A lisp that's good at string munging.
16:54	danlei	(looks like dutch)
16:55	Chouser	well, texture is my start at it. but stalled, of course, as is almost every project I start.
16:55	uninverted	Plus it would run jost about anywhere with the JVM. Imagine emacs on your phone.
16:55	hiredman	I think javascript might be a better language for scripting these days
16:56	hiredman	do you really want your editor to have the jvm startup time?
16:56	uninverted	hiredman: Couldn't be slower than emacs
16:56	danlei	well, if it's a little like emacs, it wont have to start :)
16:56	danlei	*won't
16:56	JAS415	who cares about startup time?
16:57	hiredman	well, I don't use emacs, so...
16:57	JAS415	do you open and close your editor all day?
16:57	danlei	emacsclient to the rescue
16:57	JAS415	lets microbenchmark it
16:57	kotarak	JAS415: If you are a sysadming... yes
16:57	hiredman	sometimes
16:57	hiredman	yeah
16:57	danlei	why shouldn't an admin use tramp?
16:58	hiredman	it depends
16:58	uninverted	vi does win for sysadmins because of its ubiquity.
16:59	danlei	that's somehow a point, if you have no other access than pysical, yes
16:59	Chousuke	a sysadmin would run emacs on his own machine and set emacsclient to connect to that instance over ssh :P
17:00	danlei	I'd just use tramp
17:00	danlei	so, basically: yes
17:01	Chousuke	or use vi, if it's some config file editing.
17:01	kotarak	If Vim just hadn't so much niceties. For example C-n completion, or C-xC-f file completion....
17:01	hiredman	and then he tries to write the config file he just edited, and it turns out the user his ssh client connected as doesn't have permissions
17:01	danlei	kotarak: ever heard of hippie-expansion?
17:02	kotarak	danlei: no
17:02	uninverted	kotarak: It's basically the best thing ever.
17:03	kotarak	uninverted: which has yet to be proven. They say the same about org-mode.
17:03	danlei	kotarak: you can add as many completion-types to it, used in the order of the list of expansions to try. bound to a convenient binding, and you wipe the bottom with C-xC-f file
17:04	kotarak	danlei: and they deliver all those fancy, super completions with their plugin? Or do they just provide the infrastructure to define them?
17:04	Chousuke	I have tabcompletion in my buffers
17:05	danlei	like: (setq hippie-expand-try-functions-list '(try-expand-dabbrev try-complete-lisp-symbol try-complete-your-grandmother) ... some are built in, some come with modes ... depends.
17:05	Chousuke	I wonder if combine ido fuzzy completion with that
17:05	kotarak	danlei: and it also learns the keywords of all open buffers?
17:06	Chousuke	though ido is pretty slow for large lists. would probably need some performance tweaking.
17:06	danlei	kotarak: depends on the completions you actually use, for the most cases: yes
17:07	danlei	kotarak: but for that, you can just use slime-complete-symbol, already does that, as far as lisps are concerned. (I especially like partial completion for lisp)
17:08	danlei	Chousuke: you already know smex?
17:08	danlei	Chousuke: nice add-on for ido, for commands
17:09	Chousuke	smex?
17:09	danlei	Chousuke: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Smex
17:09	danlei	Chousuke: nothing earth-shaking, but I use ido too, and find it useful sometimes
17:10	Chousuke	hmm.
17:10	Chousuke	I already have ido in M-x but I guess that's a bit smarter.
17:10	Chousuke	ido fuzzy completion is nice but it still introduces noticeable delays when you have many matches ;/
17:11	Chousuke	I also typo - as . often and noticing that would be nice too :D
17:11	Chousuke	then I could just type cl.de or something to get clojure-mode
17:11	danlei	usually I just use partial-completion with M-x, it's still fastest for me
17:12	danlei	smex is just for exploring things, when I'm not sure what I'm looking for
17:13	danlei	(but anyway: if you already have ido completion for M-x, nothing new, I guess)
17:15	Chousuke	I wish egg had the ability to control the size of chunks when staging changes :/
17:15	Chousuke	but it doesn't seem straightforward to implement.
17:16	Chousuke	magit does it, but magit's interface is not as neat ;(
17:16	danlei	I just use vc-git atm, eshell for the rest :\|
17:17	Chousuke	and magit gets confused if you name your tracking branch differently from the remote branch you track.
17:17	Anniepoo	anybody using waterfront?
17:18	Chousuke	danlei: you should try magit. it's really much nicer than git add --patch :P
17:18	danlei	Chousuke: Yes, I really should :\, maybe I'll check it out this weekend
17:18	Chousuke	the interface is really spartan though.
17:19	danlei	Well, atm I'm basically just using C-x v v and eshell -- can't get any more spartan I guess :)
17:19	Chousuke	I only found out by accident that you can specify the remote to push to with the prefix argument to P (push)
17:20	Chousuke	and the default faces are all grey
17:20	Chousuke	add some colour and it becomes much more pleasant :P
17:21	danlei	so ... would you suggest magit, or egg?
17:21	danlei	guess I should really take the time to investigate them both ...
17:22	Chousuke	danlei: well, egg is a lot easier to use but magit has more features (being able to shrink and enlarge chunks for staging is really, really nice)
17:23	Chousuke	magit seems better maintained too.
17:23	danlei	Chousuke: yes, that's surely a nice one
17:26	Chousuke	basic usage of magit is easy though: just do M-x magit-status, then you'll get a buffer of changed files, staged and unstaged files which you can scroll with n and p; tab will expand a file for per-chunk staging, s will stage a selected file/chunk, u unstages, and c brings up the commit message window (C-c C-c does the actual commit)
17:26	Chousuke	and then there are a million other features you can discover via the completely unorganised menu :P
17:27	danlei	:)
17:27	danlei	ok, thanks, I'll definetly check it out ... no more git add -p :)
17:28	Anniepoo	hmm... I'm writing a GUI editor. So far it's only edited one sort of thing. Now I'm going to add a second mode
17:28	danlei	*definitely
17:28	Anniepoo	that edits a second thing in a different way
17:28	Chousuke	egg instead has a minor mode that activates when you open a git-controlled file. then it overrides C-x v v to mean "next action" (staging modifications or committing), and C-x v s for "status" and C-x v l for history view
17:29	danlei	Chousuke: hm
17:29	danlei	Chousuke: how is it different from vc-git then?
17:29	danlei	Chousuke: that's what I can do right now ...
17:30	Chousuke	danlei: the status and history buffers have all kinds of functionality. and there's more that what I mentioned
17:30	danlei	Chousuke: ah, ok
17:30	danlei	Chousuke: sounds as if it would be an easier transition
17:30	danlei	Chousuke: but I'll have a look at magit
17:31	Chousuke	well, egg is a fork of early magit, so they share many of the key commands.
17:31	Anniepoo	I currently have a dispatch-down for the first mode. Is this a sane place for a multimethod, or am I abusing it?
17:31	Chousuke	but I wouldn't call them similar :)
17:31	danlei	:) ok, ty
17:31	Chousuke	But if egg had the ability to shrink/enlarge chunks I'd definitely use it instead of magit :/
17:32	danlei	just a matter of time, and some solution including the kitchen sink will be part of emacs proper, I guess ;)
17:33	Chousuke	heh
17:33	Chousuke	yeah, that's one of the nice things about emacs.
17:34	danlei	sure is :)
17:34	Chousuke	it doesn't accumulate bloat. it accumulates features.
17:34	danlei	I'd say it ... assimilates :)
17:35	Anniepoo	I'd love to be assimilated, but couldn't get it to set up the clojure related modes
17:35	Chousuke	But you're on windows, right?
17:35	Anniepoo	yes
17:36	Chousuke	I had exactly zero problems setting up clojure-mode with clojure-install when I tried it, but I'm on OS X :/
17:36	danlei	I use cygwin emacs on windows, fire off swank-clojure + slime-connect in emacs and that pretty much does it. (everything HEAD)
17:36	devinus	Is anybody using clojure that doesn't know Java?
17:36	devinus	Chousuke: what is clojure-install ?
17:37	danlei	well ... If you exclude some mandatory course at university, I guess I don't know anything about java ;)
17:37	Chousuke	devinus: a feature of clojure-mode that downloads slime, swank, clojure and clojure-contrib for you.
17:37	Anniepoo	danlei, mind if I bug you for help on getting emacs up under cygwin?
17:37	danlei	Anniepoo: If I can help, I will, sure
17:38	Anniepoo	lovely
17:38	Chousuke	Now I have a more proper slime setup though.
17:38	Chousuke	I actually set up clojure as just one lisp for slime. I don't have other lisps but they would be easy to add. :P
17:40	Anniepoo	danlei, I'm on private to you, are you seeing it?
17:42	Chousuke	I actually found a nice function from clojure-swank that made setting up the proper command for clojure easy
17:42	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chousuke/emacs.d/blob/ec575853806e43434f92c1f28278910afd1dd96b/init-clojure.el
17:45	Licenser_	what is slime and swank?
17:46	Chousuke	SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs and swank is a thingy SLIME uses to talk with the actual lisp instances.
17:47	Licenser_	ah okay no use for that I'm not an EMACS person
17:47	Licenser_	thanks for the answer so Chousuke :)
17:47	rsynnott	it's really very nice; you should consider giving it a go
17:47	devinus	what is the META key for emacs on Macs?
17:48	Chousuke	devinus: by default, option
17:48	Licenser_	I startet out of VIM, went to TM on mac since it has a incredile nice integration here on my MAC and I tried the mac emacs port - it just does not work soo well, just as much as gvim is horrible
17:51	devinus	when i try to do M-x slime on emacs on my mac it doesn't do anything it's just trying into the file "slime"
17:52	Chousuke	slime is not included in emacs by defauly.
17:52	Chousuke	t
17:52	devinus	Chousuke: i know, i have everything set up. i think it's a key issue
17:54	cschreiner	devinus: I agree
17:56	devinus	so i'm using both the ctrl and alt/option keys
17:56	devinus	neither is M-x
17:58	Chousuke	hm
17:58	Chousuke	aquamacs?
17:58	Chousuke	in aquamacs it's cmd-x I thkn
17:59	Chousuke	esc x will work if that doesn't
18:22	Raynes	Clojure and that FlightCaster site got a slashdot. :>
18:27	devinus	can you do slime/swank/clojure-mode in aquamacs?
18:28	bitbckt	Yes.
18:28	devinus	is it the same process?
18:28	Raynes	AFAIK.
18:28	bitbckt	clojure-mode + clojure-install works in that env.
18:31	bitbckt	Aquamacs and Carbon Emacs both use CMD as M, by default...
18:44	devinus	wow
18:45	devinus	aquamacs with clojure-mode is a great dev environent
18:45	devinus	i don't even know emacs yet, but i get the feeling that i'll feel rather stupid thinking i could have gone my entire life as a programmer satisfied with just a text editor
18:46	bitbckt	hehe
18:49	devinus	is there a way to get a darker theme for aquamacs?
18:50	bitbckt	install the color-theme package
18:50	bitbckt	devinus: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ColorTheme
18:59	mtd	devinus: check out the zenburn theme
19:36	cschreiner	devinus: emacs is wonderful
19:39	uninverted	Is everyone still talking about emacs? :\
19:40	bitbckt	uninverted: This is a Lisp-related channel... inevitable, really.
19:41	uninverted	bitbckt: All channels do inevitably gravitate to editors...
19:41	bitbckt	hehe
19:42	bitbckt	IRC is the event horizon of an Holy War black hole...
20:06	AWizzArd	In Compile.java in line 56: int count = args.length; Is count used at some point later?
20:20	tomoj	,(into [] (map inc [1 2 3]))
20:20	clojurebot	[2 3 4]
20:20	tomoj	is that efficient?
20:21	tomoj	guess it's still linear
20:42	Chouser	yes linear, but pretty efficient. into will use a transient vector to build up the result and do an O(1) conversion to persistent before returning it.
20:45	Chouser	rhickey: why does into use (#( ... )) ?
20:54	lowlycoder	is there a good clojure/swing tutorial anywhere? I'm trying to translate: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/examples/start/HelloWorldSwingProject/src/start//HelloWorldSwing.java and am a bit stuck
20:54	lowlycoder	I have (import [javax.swing JFrame JLabel ]) so far
20:55	lowlycoder	and that's about it
20:55	tomoj	Chouser: wait, what?
20:55	tomoj	I figured (map inc [1 2 3]) built up a seq, then the into has to go and copy it into a vector
20:58	dreish	tomoj: "Built up a seq" doesn't mean anything.
20:59	lowlycoder	user=> (import [javax.swing JFrame JButton JOptionPane])
20:59	lowlycoder	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: javax.swing (NO_SOURCE_FILE:2)
20:59	lowlycoder	wtf ... isn't javax.swing part of standard java?
20:59	lowlycoder	or am i missing a *.jar file
21:00	dreish	tomoj: I guess it could, if you hang on to the head, but otherwise a seq is a little closer to an iterator than a list.
21:00	tomoj	dreish: ah, yeah
21:00	dreish	lowlycoder: Try (import '(javax.swing JFrame ... etc))
21:01	lowlycoder	that worked
21:01	lowlycoder	dreish: thanks ... but isn't [] like '() in the context of import?
21:01	lowlycoder	i ssee the two swapped back & forh all the time
21:01	tomoj	so into has to consume the seq, where a plain map just leaves it unconsumed
21:01	dreish	No, but '() and '[] work about the same.
21:01	tomoj	lowlycoder: put your import inside an ns, then you don't have to quote anything
21:01	dreish	With [], the members of the vector are still subject to evaluation.
21:02	dreish	,[(+ 1 2) (+ 3 4)]
21:02	clojurebot	[3 7]
21:05	lowlycoder	got it; thanks :-)
21:05	lowlycoder	tomoj: yes, the inside namespace must have been where I saw the [] w/o the quote
21:09	tomoj	other than that, just check out the java interop section on clojure.org
21:09	tomoj	and doto
21:47	ycombination	what are the advantages of clojure over Scala and JRuby?
21:48	headius	what's the advantage of peanut butter over chocolate?
21:49	ycombination	headius: not the same thing
21:49	luis	ycombination: exactly.
21:49	luis	:-D
21:50	ycombination	luis: headius' example is not the same thing as my question.
21:50	luis	ycombination: perhaps you could be more specific in your question.
21:51	luis	ycombination: otherwise, you should read the nice overview in Clojure's website.
21:52	ycombination	it seems to me that Scala, Clojure and jruby are popular choices for jvm based shops
21:52	tomoj	hmm. I seem to want transactions to see the snapshot of the "ref world" rather than the in-transaction values. I suspect this means I'm thinking wrongly..
21:53	luis	ycombination: apparently so.
21:53	ycombination	however I don't know enough about them to assess what are Clojure advantages and disadvantages over them... right now I'm tending towards Clojure
21:54	luis	ycombination: well, go for it. Do you know any other Lisps?
21:54	ycombination	I know Java
21:54	ycombination	and C++
21:55	tomoj	if you understand the y combinator you should have no problem :)
21:55	ycombination	I learned some functional programming with Erlang
21:55	luis	ycombination: I'm sure you'll like Clojure. Get the book, have fun.
21:55	ycombination	luis: ok, programming clojure?
21:56	luis	ycombination: right.
21:57	ycombination	I'll ask slightly narrower questions then. How fast is Clojure in general? Like Common Lisp?
21:57	luis	ycombination: there are so many CL implementations. Some are quite fast. So is the JVM.
21:58	ycombination	luis: SBCL
21:58	luis	ycombination: that one's pretty fast, yeah.
21:59	luis	ycombination: you should be fine with Clojure, I wouldn't worry about that.
21:59	ycombination	luis: coming from languages like C++ and Java, I'm not ready to a slow language like jruby.
22:00	ycombination	so I wonder if Clojure is generally considered fast. I'm fine with it being 1/10 of java's speed. 1/40 would not be acceptable tough.
22:01	tomoj	even in the rare case that clojure is too slow, you can just write that part in java
22:01	ycombination	tomoj: is it that well integrated with Java?
22:01	tomoj	yep
22:01	tomoj	but rich says clojure is "as fast as java"
22:01	ycombination	tomoj: so I can use any Java library I want?
22:02	tomoj	yep :)
22:02	tomoj	and your clojure data structures can be passed to those libraries, etc
22:02	ycombination	that's groovy... I mean... that's clojure :D
22:02	luis	ycombination: if after profiling you find a piece of Clojure code that's not fast enough there are plenty of ways of optimizing it. Type hints, rewriting in Java, etc.
22:02	Anniepoo	public thanks to danlei, who just got me up on emacs/swank/slime/etc after an insane amount of struggle
22:03	ycombination	ok, what about IDE support? What do you recommend?
22:03	Anniepoo	though clojure tends to be fast enough if you're really in THAT much of a hurry you'll probably want to use a GPGPU CUDA program
22:04	JAS415	i think the key is to mix clojure wtih the right java libraries
22:04	JAS415	then you get speed + lisp power easily
22:04	tomoj	ycombination: emacs/swank/slime/etc :)
22:04	ycombination	tomoj: oh I'm not familiar with those
22:04	tomoj	if you're not on windows it shouldn't be an "insane amount of struggle"
22:05	tomoj	well, learning emacs might be a bit of a struggle...
22:05	ycombination	tomoj: I'm on MacOSX
22:05	luis	ycombination: I suppose you could start with one you're familiar with then. But soon enough you'll become an hardcore Lisper and fall in love with Emacs. :)
22:05	JAS415	there's eclipse and netbeans plugins too...
22:05	ycombination	I'm familiar with textmate, eclipse and netbeans
22:05	Anniepoo	I use IntelliJ and La Clojure
22:05	tomoj	ycombination: imo, get aquamacs emacs, the emacs starter kit, clojure-mode
22:05	JAS415	i use emacs myself
22:06	tomoj	ycombination: I might be blogging sometime soon about getting all that set up
22:06	ycombination	tomoj: I like the idea. Any tutorial to learn emacs fast?
22:07	Anniepoo	I'm just learning, found this useful
22:07	Anniepoo	http://dsl.org/cookbook/cookbook_14.html
22:07	tomoj	I dunno of any good ones
22:08	Anniepoo	the tutorial that comes up when you start a newly installed emacs is helpful
22:09	Anniepoo	or by ctrl-h t
22:10	ycombination	I will do that then
22:12	tomoj	ah, yes, that's how I got started
22:13	rzoom_	is rhickey the only one who can approve for the clojure-dev google group?
22:14	Chouser	rzoom_: I believe so
22:17	rzoom_	okie doke
22:18	rzoom_	i have a patch ready to go, just waiting for approval
22:24	Chouser	for an existing ticket?
22:26	rzoom_	no
22:26	rzoom_	adding not-found param to get-in
22:26	rzoom_	wanted to see if there was any interest
22:27	rzoom_	i need it for a project i am working on at work
22:27	Chouser	well, you can create a ticket on assembla. Dunno if you can attach a patch or not without membership.
22:29	rzoom_	yeah i am just a watcher
22:29	rzoom_	was going to just send the patch to dev-group list and see if anyone thought it was worth applying
22:29	Chouser	I think he prefers unrequested issues be brought up on one list or the other first.
22:30	Chouser	I haven't figured out when to start a thread -dev vs. clojure.
22:31	rzoom_	plus i have that ssl-server patch for contrib. will send that to the list as well.
22:34	Chouser	yeah, I guess -dev's the right place for that. Sorry I can't do anything for you there.
23:02	rzoom_	Chouser, no problem. thanks for the info :)
23:50	ycombination	I built clojure.jar, how do I add it to the "classpath"?