#clojure – 2009-08-08

2009-08-08

02:30	tomoj	is there a way to check if a var is bound?
02:31	hiredman	clojurebot: vars?
02:31	clojurebot	Excuse me?
02:32	hiredman	I would checkout http://clojure.org/vars
02:32	tomoj	reading that
02:33	hiredman	vars do have an isBound method
02:34	hiredman	,(.isBound #'+)
02:34	clojurebot	true
02:34	hiredman	I think you have to try pretty hard to get a hold of a unbound var
02:35	tomoj	holding cookies from login in a var, but if the user hasn't logged in yet, that var is unbound
02:35	tomoj	guess I can just put {} in the root binding
02:35	hiredman	uh
02:35	hiredman	seems like a ref or an atom would surely be a better idea
02:36	tomoj	guess I'm thinking in CL
02:36	tomoj	I'll reread the sections about those
02:38	hiredman	anything where you are rebinding the root value of a var is not good
02:39	tomoj	an atom looks good
03:47	thermalnoise	what is the best way to create an enumeration in clojure? should i define some values in their own ns?
03:48	tomoj	what's the difference between an enumeration and a set?
03:49	thermalnoise	as the docs put it, "a set is a collection of unique values". so there could be more than one value in a set, if i got that right
03:49	tomoj	don't enumerations have more than one value?
03:50	thermalnoise	yes, but only one is "toggled"
03:50	hiredman	…
03:50	tomoj	guess I'm not sure how you would use this "enumeration" thing in clojure
03:50	hiredman	just use keywords
03:51	thermalnoise	will read about that. i am new to clojure (coming from the c side)
03:52	tomoj	you don't have to worry about type so much in clojure
03:52	tomoj	so no need to make new enumeration types
03:52	hiredman	I think enums in a dynamic language are pretty silly
03:54	thermalnoise	@hiredman: care to explain why?
03:56	hiredman	thermalnoise: enums seem to be an artifact of type systems
03:57	hiredman	you create an enum type that holds one of x defined values and your function returns that enum
04:00	thermalnoise	just to clarify, how would you track the state of an object in a persistent storage without using enums? like, experiment x is "in preparation"/"running"/"finished"?
04:01	hiredman	just use keywords, as I said
04:01	hiredman	:in-prerp :running :finished
04:01	hiredman	http://clojure.org/data_structures#toc8
04:01	mikehinchey	if your object is a map {:state :running, :data x}
04:01	thermalnoise	read that moments ago, thanks :)
04:02	mikehinchey	you might have an enum #{:running :finished :in-prep}
04:02	hiredman	mikehinchey: but why?
04:02	mikehinchey	to validate the value of :state
04:02	tomoj	trust vs. flexibility I suppose
04:02	mikehinchey	documentation
04:03	hiredman	docs go in the docstring
04:04	mikehinchey	it depends on how complex it is, I might want to write code around it, give nice error messages, make assertions
04:04	hiredman	shrug
04:05	mikehinchey	ok :), just thought I'd answer his question
04:05	hiredman	sure sure
04:08	thermalnoise	@hiredman: just tried keywords and had my d'oh moment for today. thanks for your help.
04:12	jwhitlark	what's the clojure equivalent of python's dir?
04:13	jwhitlark	to show all members of a java object.
04:14	jwhitlark	looks like show from repl-utils
04:16	tomoj	jwhitlark: nice, I had wondered that myself before
04:18	jwhitlark	I'm trying to get dbus going. not so fun. first the package in ubuntu was broken, now I'm playing with the interface...
04:18	iBong	does slime/swank have a built in command to call javadocs in clojure mode?
04:19	jwhitlark	hiredman: oh, incidentally, your name came up at the BA-clojure meeting last night for always helping people out. It's appreciated.
04:22	tomoj	iBong: I don't think so
04:22	tomoj	iBong: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081120.html and http://cynojure.posterous.com/clojure-emacs-and-javadocs look interesting
04:26	jwhitlark	hmmm. Has anyone had any luck with dbus from clojure?
04:36	jwhitlark	The new emacs interface to dbus in 23 is certainly cool.
04:42	tomoj	that looks really cool indeed
04:42	tomoj	when I move from os x to stumpwm that'll certainly come in handy
05:18	tomoj	is there something prettier than (take-while identity coll) ?
07:31	fsm	Hello everyone.
07:31	fsm	I have uploaded my ray tracer source code to http://cray.googlecode.com/ for anyone who is interested.
08:42	slaney	newb q...how can I repeat a string as part of a larger string?
08:42	slaney	like in ruby I might have something like 4.times{print "x"}
08:51	slaney	I realize that's not really functional, but I was hoping to create a string, that a character repeated a number of times in the middle
08:51	slaney	*had
08:58	Chousuke	,(apply str (take 4 (repeat "test")))
08:58	clojurebot	"testtesttesttest"
08:58	Chousuke	slaney: ^^
08:58	Neronus	slaney: (reduce str (repeat 4 "x"))
08:58	slaney	oh man
08:58	slaney	heh
08:58	Chousuke	apply str is better.
08:58	slaney	apply
08:58	slaney	I forgot that one
08:58	slaney	tyvm
08:58	Chousuke	uses a single stringbuilder.
08:59	slaney	I am not kidding, I tried for like an hour last night and an hour this morning to come up with something
08:59	slaney	hehe
08:59	slaney	thanks
09:00	Neronus	Chousuke: I confused that with some argument list length limit; you're right of course
09:34	rhickey	replaca: ping
10:00	duck11231	Are there any clojure libraries for emitting ns-aware xml yet? It seems that c.c.lazy-xml doesn't deal with namespaces. Are people just using the java xml libs for that?
10:47	tomoj	hmm
10:48	tomoj	`(range (first vec) (second vec) step)`. better way?
10:50	tomoj	(eval `(range ~@vec step)) :(
11:04	leafw	any reason why http://clojure.org/api#toc398 exists at all? Looks like a bug in the API generator.
11:05	leafw	there are many more such "Macro" API links listed.
11:41	tomoj	grr
11:41	tomoj	clojure.core/empty is evil
11:58	leafw	(doc empty)
11:58	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns an empty collection of the same category as coll, or nil"
12:41	LauJensen	Top of the evening guys :) Anybody tried that flu thats going around? Its awesome
13:45	LauJensen	When Rich talks about atoms being synchroneous and refs/vars being a-sync, how much should I read into that? For instance, what are the implications of synchronious datatypes?
13:55	hiredman	LauJensen: where did you hear that?
13:56	LauJensen	clojure.org/atoms
13:57	hiredman	and about refs being async
13:57	hiredman	?
13:57	LauJensen	3.rd paragraph "for which you wish to make synchronous changes (unlike agents, which are similarly independent but asynchronous)."
13:58	hiredman	(still don't see refs)
13:58	hiredman	agents are deinitely async
13:58	LauJensen	oh yes youre right
13:58	LauJensen	Question remains though
13:59	hiredman	essentially async means operations happen on another thread
14:00	hiredman	http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/clojure-conc.png
14:02	tomoj	coordinated means "in a transaction" essentially?
14:03	hiredman	transactions are the reason refs are coordinated
14:04	LauJensen	ok
14:04	hiredman	it means if you do an operation where you mutate two atoms you have the potential for a race condition because there is no way to coordinate the change between the two atoms
14:08	rlb	If you have a network socket connected to a device that will periodically send updates, and to which you'll periodically send commands (that have no direct responses), what would be a reasonable approach?
14:08	rlb	Perhaps an agent representing the device's state, with a thread for the incoming data, and another agent for the outgoing commands (to serialize mutiple senders)?
14:09	hiredman	sounds reasonable
14:10	rlb	ok, thanks.
14:29	LauJensen	hiredman: So the difference in use-cases for refs and atoms, is basically the coordination? Wether you need it or not
14:33	hiredman	yeah
14:34	LauJensen	Great
14:52	MarkVolkmann	As far as I can tell, the abort method in LockingTransaction.java isn't currently used. Maybe it's there for possible future use. Is that correct?
15:08	duck11231	If I have a multimethod that dispatches on a vector with two values, is there any way to write a default handler that matches one of the values, but leaves the other unbound?
15:09	kotarak	duck11231: for Java objects (derive Object ::YourGenericName), but for keywords each has to be derived manually.
15:10	duck11231	now that I think about it, it might be best to have the default handler call out to another multimethod that dispatches on just the one value
15:10	kotarak	Also possible
16:08	brool	are there any good references for trying to optimize tight inner loops in Clojure? I have some array manipulation in a tight loop and it looks like aget / aset-int / whatnot are getting boxed and unboxed all over the place.
16:10	kotarak	brool: type hints, here is a nice example: http://clj-me.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-warn-on-reflection-didnt-tell-you.html
16:10	kotarak	Otherwise, stress google a little. There was lot of discussion about this and lots of good tips.
16:12	brool	kotarak: thanks, i will look at that. i have googled quite a bit, but even with type hinting it looks like there is boxing/unboxing going on
16:12	hiredman	http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc36
16:12	hiredman	http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc46
16:33	Fossi1	lisppaste8: url
16:33	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
16:34	lisppaste8	Fossi pasted "macro and params" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85065
16:34	Fossi1	and way to write the macro in a way that i don't have to pass in the last two params every time?
16:35	Fossi1	i'd like to use local vars in the macro not 'full.name.space/name
16:35	Fossi1	which it extends to
16:35	kotarak	Why do you need a macro?
16:35	Fossi1	hmmm. good point
16:35	kotarak	`(let [this-is-local# ...] ...) note trailing #
16:36	Fossi1	actually, with a function, i'd have to pass those params
16:36	Fossi1	no, i don't mean local to the macro
16:36	Fossi1	i meant local to the calling context
16:37	brool	Fossi1: maybe you want ~'var
16:37	Fossi1	as in (let [x 'something] (macro-that-wants-to-use-x))
16:37	kotarak	Fossi1: You can capture variables with ~', but you don't want to do that.
16:37	Fossi1	ah, let me try
16:37	Fossi1	kotarak: why don't i?
16:37	Fossi1	i'm pretty sure i do
16:38	kotarak	Fossi1: Because this will lead to terribly spaghetti code and will come back to haunt you...
16:38	kotarak	Fossi1: It's bad style. You'll need more energy to understand the code.
16:38	Fossi1	yes, i know. it's only in a very contained place though and just to save me from typing it all over
16:38	brool	if it's a macro local to this code, is it that bad?
16:39	kotarak	Now it's maybe ok, but in half a hear it might look different.
16:39	Fossi1	well, if it does, then i'll write a whole new part of code around that
16:39	Fossi1	it's ugly as is anyway
16:40	Fossi1	i appreciate the warning though
16:41	Fossi1	i mean, the swap in that thing and all
16:41	Fossi1	it's nasty. ;D
16:42	kotarak	proxy does this as well with "this", be sure to document your macro very well.
16:43	Fossi1	"@@@ captures event and activity. dragons be here." should be sufficient ;)
16:43	Fossi1	not a big reusable part in any way
16:43	Fossi1	just want to flash out some proxying without having to type too much
16:43	kotarak	Fossi1: hehe
17:52	malim	... identifiers in Clojure are way too short
17:54	holmak	You are sad that you do not get to type more?
17:54	malim	dosync? what is that supposed to mean? gimme DoSynchronously
17:55	Fossi1	pfft
17:55	holmak	huffman encoding!
17:55	holmak	important things have short names
17:56	Fossi1	then do should be really long ;)
17:56	malim	lazy-cons? what in blazes is a "cons"???
17:56	kotarak	malim: if at all, then do-synchronously... ;)
17:56	kotarak	,(cons 1 nil)
17:56	clojurebot	(1)
17:56	Fossi1	,(doc cons)
17:56	clojurebot	"([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
17:57	Fossi1	also, for a lisp, cons is pretty much where it's at ;)
17:57	kotarak	,(take 10 (cons 0 (iterate inc 1)))
17:57	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
17:57	malim	sorry guys. just trolling. wanted to see if the channel was alive
17:57	Fossi1	'8not so much in clojure though)
17:57	Fossi1	hell, i'm not used to this shitty german layout anymore
17:57	kotarak	Fossi1: get Neo ;)
17:58	Fossi1	i was thinking about dvorak'ing my keyboard again
17:58	Fossi1	but this (currently) is a laptop one from my company
17:58	Fossi1	don't want to mess with it
17:58	malim	I don't think a keyboard layout setting will hurt
17:58	Fossi1	i have a typematrix 2030 though
17:59	Fossi1	can't type dvorak on qwertz. i tried
17:59	tomoj	been dvorak here for years
17:59	tomoj	now programmer's dvorak
17:59	Fossi1	i occasionally glance down for whatever reason and it totally throws me off
17:59	tomoj	only problem is my numbers are like classic dvorak which I'm not used to :(
17:59	Fossi1	since i have to type qwertz pretty often
18:00	Fossi1	but the typematrix and dvorak are a godsend
18:01	malim	I heard that qwerty was designed with the goal to slow down people's typing speed, because type writers would trip up easily if you tried typing too fast. is that true?
18:01	Fossi1	i wonder how people can seriously press ctrl-alt-alt gr(right alt)-? in emacs
18:01	Fossi1	malim: nobody knows
18:01	Fossi1	i think it was more about the positions of the heads
18:02	tomoj	Fossi1: is that a real keybinding?
18:02	Fossi1	those had to be spread evenly according to usage
18:02	tomoj	I didn't know emacs knew what alt gr was
18:02	Fossi1	tomoj: no, but it knows \
18:02	Fossi1	which is (right alt)-(englisch -)
18:02	Fossi1	*snglish
18:03	Fossi1	insane germans
18:03	tomoj	nice, you can get a typematrix 2030 with blank keys
18:04	Fossi1	yeah
18:04	Fossi1	and a rubber top
18:04	Fossi1	typematrix <3
18:04	Fossi1	i'd buy one again any time
18:05	tomoj	I don't really want a rubber top
18:05	tomoj	I think I'd rather like a blank keyboard
18:05	kotarak	malim: I think it was not slowing people down, but putting the keys mechanically of characters used often together apart, to prevent tripping of the stamp thingies. But there are lots of urban legends here...
18:05	Fossi1	shrug
18:05	tomoj	mine's not dvorak anymore anyway, so :)
18:06	tomoj	oh, you can get the skin blank too, cool
18:06	Fossi1	well, i don't want to get too funky, so collegues can still work at my laptop if need be
18:06	Fossi1	although they are already confused by standard qwerty 2030 layout
18:07	tomoj	doesn't your laptop have it's own keyboard anyway?
18:07	Fossi1	but then again, with everybodies window manager behaving differently, it's almost impossible as is
18:07	Fossi1	you are always like: "what the hell is the combo for getting to the next desktop" "where is your browser" etc
18:08	tomoj	my stumpwm will trip them up for sure :)
18:08	Fossi1	tomoj: yes, but i have it 'docked'. it's on a stand and connected to a monitor and so on
18:09	Fossi1	tomoj: almost nothing somebody hasn't been running here :)
18:09	Fossi1	although xmonad is more popular than stump
18:10	tomoj	nice, even more esoteric
18:10	Fossi1	lots of haskell lovers around ;)
18:10	clojurebot	Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you compute.
18:11	Fossi1	;D
18:11	Fossi1	clojurebot: <3
18:11	clojurebot	<3 is ♥
18:11	Fossi1	hell yeah.
18:12	tomoj	why isn't there a clojure window manager
18:12	Fossi1	running in linux?
18:12	Fossi1	that could get interesting/annoying to code
18:13	tomoj	how come?
18:13	Fossi1	i don't know. i just guess
18:13	Fossi1	also, i didn't want to write linux, but java
18:13	malim	I don't think any Linux window manager has been coded in a VM language
18:14	Chousuke	the lisp ones don't count? :/
18:14	tomoj	http://sourceforge.net/projects/escher/
18:14	Fossi1	just came up with that too
18:14	malim	well, I guess they do then
18:14	Fossi1	so the hard part is 'done'
18:15	tomoj	I dunno anything about window managers
18:15	malim	yeah, all the JNI =P
18:15	hiredman	sawfish uses guile
18:15	tomoj	I don't need much from mine though
18:15	Fossi1	doesn't seem so active though
18:15	arbscht	probably the main reason why it doesn't exist is that nobody has yet cared to try. I can't imagine there is any inherent technical obstruction
18:15	kotarak	hiredman: ? did say switch, I though they use rep or how it was called.
18:16	kotarak	s/say/they/
18:16	hiredman	maybe they switched to rep?
18:16	hiredman	I haven't looked at sawfish in a long time
18:16	kotarak	hiredman: dunno... haven't used it for years.
18:17	Fossi1	also about a javavm window manager, what's the point?
18:17	tomoj	I just want to hack it in clojure
18:17	malim	it'll be cross platform!!!
18:17	Fossi1	omg
18:17	tomoj	though I am happy with common lisp too
18:18	Fossi1	yeah
18:18	Fossi1	i guess that's about it
18:18	malim	SCBL?
18:19	tomoj	I just parsed "common lisp" as like "peasant lisp"... clojure is getting to me
18:19	malim	I read the "Lisp is not an acceptable Lisp" blog yesterday. man did that guy nail it down (maybe except when he says no lisp will ever be acceptable)
18:19	hiredman	gnome seems to be moving to javascript as their scripting/plugin language, so possible you could use clojurescript
18:22	hiredman	http://live.gnome.org/Seed
18:23	hiredman	I'm just glad to see something that isn't python I guess
18:27	malim	"Dynamic vars provide a way to communicate between different points on the call stack without polluting the argument lists and return values of the intervening calls." That's just a way of avoiding the term "globals"
18:27	Fossi1	"My prediction: someone will get tired of waiting, and they'll Torvalds Arc into obsolescence before it's ever released." Hello, rhickey ;D
18:27	malim	Fossi1: yep. that's what I'm hoping
18:28	malim	Clojure is really solving a lot of Lisp's problems.
18:29	tomoj	are many clojurists actually optimistic about clojure as a lisp revival? or is that just a cool t-shirt slogan?
18:30	hiredman	malim: when you dynamically bind a var, the binding only is in effect in the scope of the binding
18:30	hiredman	so it is not global
18:30	kotarak	I don't really care for Lispness. I like Clojure as itself. For its consistency, small core, functionalness, lazy seqs, ... It was called a Blub, I would still use it.
18:31	hiredman	the small core and the functional programing
18:31	malim	it's not called Lisp though, it's called Clojure =-()
18:32	tomoj	...and the macros :)
18:32	kotarak	Oh. And I like homoiconicety or how it is called. For the macros. :)
18:32	malim	concurrency support
18:32	kotarak	Although I stay away from macros where ever possible.
18:33	Fossi1	the best part about clojure is actually being able to sell it to clients
18:33	Fossi1	(as in, programs written in it)
18:33	tomoj	that's because of java?
18:34	Fossi1	the jvm, yeah
18:34	hiredman	when it comes time to port clojure to other platforms, the concurrency stuff is going to be a real headache
18:34	Fossi1	customers don't care what you write code in, as long as it runs in a tomcat (or such)
18:34	Fossi1	i don't think clojure will be ported much
18:35	Fossi1	it runs on webservers in a container and on android
18:35	hiredman	oh it will
18:35	Fossi1	what more is there in the world?
18:35	malim	ported to what? CLR?
18:35	hiredman	there is a javascript port already (but on maintened at the moment waitinf for cinc)
18:35	hiredman	yeah the CLR
18:35	hiredman	the ObjectiveC runtime so it can get on the iphone
18:35	Fossi1	i doubt it
18:36	arbscht	there is a clojure-clr port underway already
18:36	Fossi1	i guess there will rather be either an android port for the iphone or a dalvik
18:36	hiredman	there have already been 3 clr ports
18:36	tomoj	hm.. I think iphone is a bit of a problem
18:36	Fossi1	or similar jvm
18:36	hiredman	only one is sort of semi official
18:36	tomoj	we have macruby, but it can't be used on the iphone
18:36	hiredman	~problem
18:36	clojurebot	People have a problem and think "Hey! I'll use a regular expression!". Now they have two problems....
18:36	tomoj	maybe the problem with macruby wouldn't affect clojure? I dunno much about it
18:36	Fossi1	well, a port with a big userbase i mean
18:36	hiredman	~problem
18:36	clojurebot	People have a problem and think "Hey! I'll use a regular expression!". Now they have two problems....
18:36	hiredman	bah
18:37	hiredman	~literal [?] problem
18:37	clojurebot	2
18:37	hiredman	~literal [1] problem
18:37	clojurebot	<reply>People have a problem and think "Hey! I'll use a regular expression!". Now they have two problems....
18:37	hiredman	~literal [0] problem
18:37	clojurebot	<reply>"There is no problem in computer programming which cannot be solved by an added level of indirection." -- Dr Maurice Wilkes
18:37	hiredman	thats the one I was looking for
18:37	tomoj	unless apple says NO :(
18:38	malim	what about the problem of having too much indirection?
18:38	Fossi1	i'd be happy for a dalvik/dex compiler, but that's about as much portage i need ;D
18:38	hiredman	apple snapple
18:38	hiredman	malim: sshh
18:38	Fossi1	there are some jvms for the (cracked) iphone
18:38	Fossi1	but they suck ;D
18:38	hiredman	jamvm
18:39	Fossi1	actually, somebody tried clojure with anything else then sun's?
18:39	malim	the crakphone
18:39	hiredman	Fossi1: yeah
18:39	Chousuke	malim: but since indirection solves all problems, it can't be a problem.
18:39	hiredman	ibm's at least
18:39	Fossi1	ecj might be nice
18:39	hiredman	ecj is just a compiler
18:39	Fossi1	at least for repl stuff
18:39	hiredman	not a jvm
18:40	Fossi1	well, okay
18:43	hiredman	jamvm is a jvm written mostly in java, I seem to recall clojure working on that, but it was kind of slow
18:44	malim	a jvm written in java? how does that work? native-complied java?
18:45	hiredman	oh
18:45	hiredman	acutally jamvm is not the one written in java
18:45	Fossi1	jamvm is slow for everything ;)
18:46	hiredman	malim: same way you rewrite clojure in clojure
18:46	Fossi1	then again hotspot has quite some years of experience
18:46	Fossi1	and the gc rocks (mostly)
18:46	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JikesRVM
18:46	hiredman	jikes is the one written in java
18:46	hiredman	"meta-circular style"
18:52	markaddleman	is there some root binding that controls the number of nested exceptions printed out on the repl? i couldn't find it a reference in the docs
18:52	hiredman	,(doc print-level)
18:52	clojurebot	"; print-level controls how many levels deep the printer will print nested objects. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum level to print. Each argument to print is at level 0; if an argument is a collection, its items are at level 1; and so on. If an object is a collection and is at a level greater than or equal to the value bound to *print-l
18:52	hiredman	dunno if that effects exceptions
18:53	hiredman	you can access a full stacktrace from *e
18:53	hiredman	,(doc *e)
18:53	clojurebot	"; bound in a repl thread to the most recent exception caught by the repl"
18:54	markaddleman	ah. e gives me what i want. the print-level* binding doesn't seem to affect stack trace depth
18:54	markaddleman	thanks!
19:02	malim	hmm. what's the equivalent to progn?
19:02	kotarak	do
19:02	kotarak	,(do 1 2 3)
19:02	clojurebot	3
19:02	malim	thanks
19:07	malim	in the repl I'm gettings "java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)"... is it supposed to print the symbol in question after the first ":"?
19:07	malim	err, the second ":"
19:07	Chousuke	yes.
19:07	kotarak	malim: maybe some messed utf-8 char
19:07	Chousuke	maybe you have a symbol that's just whitespace.
19:07	Chousuke	,
19:07	clojurebot	EOF while reading
19:07	Chousuke	hmm
19:07	neilmock	is wrapping variables in * idiomatic or does it do something extra? (def var)
19:08	Chousuke	clojurebot is smarter :/
19:08	hiredman	,(symbol " ")
19:08	clojurebot
19:08	Chousuke	neilmock: idiomatic.
19:08	hiredman	uh
19:08	kotarak	neilmock: it's idiomatic for these you might want to re-"define" in a binding
19:08	hiredman	re-bindg
19:08	kotarak	s/these/thing/
19:08	Chousuke	neilmock: it means it's intended to be dynamically rebound, usually.
19:09	Chousuke	though it might be a constant too
19:09	hiredman	re-"define" makes me cringe
19:09	kotarak	hehe, that's what the " are for. ;)
19:10	hiredman	it just gives the wrong a idea
19:10	hiredman	bind is a nicer verb
19:10	Chousuke	I've seen people who thought of foo-variables as global variables like in C or something. :/
19:11	Chousuke	superficially I guess they do look like global variables. they are global, after all. But they're not variables :)
19:12	Fossi1	i guess for the iphone it'll be dual booting android
19:12	Fossi1	shouldn't be far off
19:13	hiredman	:\|
19:13	hiredman	great
19:13	Chousuke	I'm loathe to even use the word variable, but sometimes "binding" just sounds wrong :/
19:13	hiredman	I hate dual booting
19:13	Fossi1	and there you have your clojure 'port' ;D
19:13	Fossi1	i guess you could only boot android
19:13	hiredman	dual booting is so dumb
19:13	hiredman	it is just a work around for not having enough computers
19:14	Fossi1	well, i don't think apple will allow anything more integrated
19:14	Fossi1	and voila, no clojure :(
19:14	hiredman	Fossi1: just buy an android device
19:14	Fossi1	i'd rather have clojure on android on iphone then not having it
19:14	Fossi1	well, i own an openmoko freerunner, i run android (or any jvm actually) if i want ;p
19:15	hiredman	you would have to be an idiot to want to buy and iphone to run android on it
19:15	Fossi1	i know a lot of people are eager to try some android apps on the iphone
19:15	hiredman	sure, they want android apps
19:15	Fossi1	if only because writing stuff for it is such a pita
19:15	Fossi1	(the iphone that is)
19:16	hiredman	that is not the same thing as wanting to run the android OS
19:16	Fossi1	hell, even the core libraries have memory leaks
19:16	hiredman	and those people are all devs
19:16	hiredman	devs are crazy anyway
19:16	Fossi1	sure ;D
19:16	Fossi1	i don't care about non-crazy people ;D
19:16	Fossi1	masses can use whatever ;p
19:17	hiredman	well non-crazy people buy more phones then crazy people
19:17	Fossi1	nokia if they must
19:17	Fossi1	i'm selfish that way
19:17	hiredman	dual booting is just horrible
19:17	Fossi1	also, i'm not trying to make a living out of this :)
19:17	hiredman	I hate it, I wish it would go away, along with booting in general
19:17	Fossi1	i'd be even crazier if i were ;)
19:18	hiredman	always on/instant on
19:18	Fossi1	well, i agree on that
19:18	hiredman	persitent state
19:18	Fossi1	but still, if i have an option of running clojure apps on the iphone through dual boot, or not at all, the choice is clear
19:18	Fossi1	one has to admit that the hardware is dead sexy
19:19	hiredman	or just don't buy an iphone
19:19	hiredman	I don't have to admit any thing
19:19	hiredman	and I never will
19:19	Fossi1	as said, i own a freerunner ;D
19:19	hiredman	I'd like an android phone
19:20	hiredman	but I'd never buy an iphone, because it lacks the feature I find most valuable
19:20	hiredman	the ability to write lua scripts on the phone :P
19:21	Fossi1	well, you can write the scripts ;)
19:21	Fossi1	also, i bet there's a lua for the iphone
19:22	hiredman	the openess of the android platform vs. the closedness of the iphone is just another feature like 3G, why would you buy a phone without 3G if you want a phone with 3G?
19:22	Fossi1	because you value other features more
19:23	Fossi1	by all means, i'm not saying that anybody should buy one. just that it's sexy ;)
19:23	hiredman	snort
19:25	malim	have you guys looked at Java 7?
19:29	malim	yeah. pretty lackluster
19:31	markaddleman	is there a way to pass data from an inner function to the outter function using vars? as i understand the behavior, when exiting scope, a var will rebind to the value in the outter func thus losing whatever value i set in the inner func
19:32	hiredman	markaddleman: what do you mean inner function to the outer function?
19:32	hiredman	lexically nested?
19:32	hiredman	a function called inside another function?
19:32	hiredman	etc
19:32	markaddleman	yes
19:32	hiredman	"yes" is not very descriptive
19:33	markaddleman	(thanks for clearing up lexically nested... my CS courses were a LONG time ago)
19:33	markaddleman	sorry. i mean this: (outter-fn (inner-fn ...))
19:33	hiredman	the best design is to have the inner function evaulate to whatever you need
19:33	kotarak	,(binding [print-dup nil] (let [inner-fn (fn [] (var-set print-dup "Hello, World")) outer-fn (fn [] (println print-dup) (inner-fn) (println print-dup))] (outer-fn)))
19:33	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
19:35	hiredman	markaddleman: it troubles me that you would go looking outside the normal function call/return mechanism
19:35	markaddleman	hiredman: agreed.
19:35	hiredman	It can be done and I am sure there are a million different ways to do it
19:35	hiredman	markaddleman: so don't ask about it and don't do it :)
19:36	markaddleman	the issue here is that i've got some meta data that needs to ride along the thread without changing the inner-function's calling/return semantics
19:36	markaddleman	lol... i'd love that
19:36	markaddleman	here's what i'm trying to do: i'm trying to write a commit-scope function. it takes a scope-obj (like a java.sql.Connection) and a no-arg fn. the scope objs need to pass along the thread
19:36	kotarak	,(binding [count 0] (let [inner-fn (fn [] (var-set count 5)) outer-fn (fn [] (println count) (inner-fn) (println count))] (outer-fn)))
19:36	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Var
19:36	hiredman	markaddleman: are you familar with binding?
19:37	markaddleman	maybe not as much as i should be
19:37	kotarak	,(binding [count 0] (let [inner-fn (fn [] (var-set (var count) 5)) outer-fn (fn [] (println count) (inner-fn) (println count))] (outer-fn)))
19:37	clojurebot	0 5
19:38	markaddleman	ah.. . i think i just understood a bit deeper. the var only rebinds when exiting a nested bind, not when exiting the nested func
19:39	hiredman	markaddleman: I don't understand why you need to pass a second value out of the inner function
19:41	markaddleman	if the code is (with-commit-scope obj1 #(with-commit-scope obj2 (fn[] "hello"))), i need to pass "hello" up from the inner commit scope to the outter but i also need to pass obj2 up
19:42	markaddleman	it would be cool obj2 could hitch a ride on "hello"'s metadata, but, of course, you can't attach metadata onto a string. so i need to pass it along the thread somehow
19:42	kotarak	Let with-commit-scope return [return-val commit-obj].
19:42	hiredman	you have three inner functions there
19:43	hiredman	or three function inside the outer call to with-commit-scope
19:44	markaddleman	kotarak: that was my first implementation, but it fails because it changes the return semantics of the ultimate function that gets called (in this case the no-arg returning "hello")
19:46	kotarak	markaddleman you could use a wrapping master fn/macro: (with-commit-scopes (scope obj1 (scope obj2 #(do "Hello"))) which does the unwrapping of the return value and the handling of the final scope-object.
19:47	markaddleman	kotarak: thanks! i just had that idea when you gave your example a couple of minutes ago. i'm coding that up right now
19:47	markaddleman	what was killing me before is that i was including a binding call in ever with-commit call when i should only have one in the outter most call
20:05	Fossi1	<3 toString
20:05	Fossi1	i'm off. bye
20:14	rlb	For a general subsystem (say to communicate with mpd), would you tend to expect a multimethod-style interface, or something else? i.e. (play mpd) (pause mpd), etc.
20:38	fsm	Anyone home?
20:40	opqdonut	not home
20:43	fsm	I am working on my learning project, I am looking for feedback on my code if anyone wants to look
21:00	mebaran151	I'm having trouble writing this sort of function: I'd like to walk through a nested hash, replacing every hash that has only number keys with a vector, afterwich I'd go into the resulting vector and repeat the process until I reached an atomic value like a string or int
21:08	hiredman	mebaran151: http://clojure.org/other_libraries#toc5
21:08	mebaran151	hmmm
21:09	mebaran151	I looked at it, but it didn't seem to return a nested hash like I'd like
21:10	hiredman	you can create your own zippers
21:10	hiredman	that use hashes
21:10	hiredman	,(doc clojure.zip/zipper)
21:10	clojurebot	"([branch? children make-node root]); Creates a new zipper structure. branch? is a fn that, given a node, returns true if can have children, even if it currently doesn't. children is a fn that, given a branch node, returns a seq of its children. make-node is a fn that, given an existing node and a seq of children, returns a new branch node with the supplied children. root is the root node."
21:11	mebaran151	I'll work through it
21:12	hiredman	,(clojure.zip/zipper map? seq (partial into {}) {})
21:12	clojurebot	[{} nil]
21:12	hiredman	,((paritial clojure.zip/zipper map? seq (partial into {})) {2 :a 3 :b 4 :c})
21:12	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: paritial in this context
21:13	hiredman	bah
21:13	hiredman	,(require '[clojure.zip: as zip])
21:13	clojurebot	Invalid token: clojure.zip:
21:13	hiredman	,(require '[clojure.zip :as zip])
21:13	clojurebot	nil
21:13	hiredman	,((partial zip/zipper map? seq (partial into {})) {2 :a 3 :b 4 :c})
21:13	clojurebot	[{2 :a, 3 :b, 4 :c} nil]
21:14	hiredman	,(-> {2 :a 3 :b 4 :c} (partial zip/zipper map? seq (partial into {})) zip/next zip/next zip/next zip/node)
21:14	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentArrayMap
21:14	hiredman	what?
21:15	hiredman	,(-> ((paritial zip/zipper map? seq (partial into {})) {2 :a 3 :b 4 :c}) zip/left)
21:15	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: paritial in this context
21:15	hiredman	ok
21:15	hiredman	anyway
21:34	mebaran151	thanks hiredman
22:20	duck1123	is there a better way to get a literal reference to a namespace in my code than (find-ns 'clojure.core)
23:41	cemerick	argh Quoth NetBeans core dev: "javac doesn't need it [so bugger off]".