#clojure – 2009-08-03

2009-08-03

01:31	mebaran151	I'd like to have a version of concat that stops concatting at nil
01:33	mebaran151	something like concat while
01:33	cark	someting like (apply concat (take-while ...
01:34	mebaran151	will take-while respect laziness?
01:34	hiredman	,(doc take-while)
01:34	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
01:34	cark	,(apply concat (take-while identity [[1 2 3] [:a :b :c] nil]))
01:34	clojurebot	(1 2 3 :a :b :c)
01:35	mebaran151	thanks you all
01:36	mebaran151	that did the trick nicely
01:36	mebaran151	I now have lazy cursors over berkeleydb which is pretty sweet
01:36	cark	nice =)
01:38	mebaran151	is there any reason why iterate always pulls the first iterations of its series?
01:39	mebaran151	,(take 2 (iterate #(prn %1) "no"))
01:39	clojurebot	("no" nil)
01:39	mebaran151	first three iterations?
01:40	mebaran151	that example didn't show it, but it all seems to prefetch the first three chunks
01:40	cark	hum it used to be like that i think, but not anymore
01:41	cark	what version of clojure are you using ?
01:43	mebaran151	the 1.0 that comes with enclojure
01:44	mebaran151	I think it's from may
01:44	mebaran151	I don't mind the behavior, because for this application, a little prefectching is actually a pretty good idea
01:45	cark	1.0 should not show this behaviour
01:45	cark	my guess is that your code is to blame =)
01:45	mebaran151	mine too
01:45	mebaran151	but it's exactly three
01:46	mebaran151	I'll lisp paste the relevant functions
01:46	cark	i'm using an even older version, and i can't reproduce that
01:46	mebaran151	~lisppaste
01:46	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
01:46	cark	clojurebot: paste?
01:46	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
01:46	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
01:47	lisppaste8	mebaran151 pasted "iterate likes to pull" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84653
01:48	mebaran151	db-list always pull the first three mores, as verified by my juvenile prn statement
01:49	mebaran151	these statements are not recomputed, and the laziness works as before
01:50	jonase	,(for [x (range 1 10) y (range 1 10) :while (= y 2)] [x y])
01:50	clojurebot	()
01:50	jonase	,(for [x (range 1 10) y (range 1 10) :while (= x 2)] [x y])
01:50	clojurebot	([2 1] [2 2] [2 3] [2 4] [2 5] [2 6] [2 7] [2 8] [2 9])
01:50	jonase	:while confuses me.
01:53	cark	mebaran151: sorry i can't help you on this
01:53	mebaran151	no problem
01:53	mebaran151	so it's nothing super obvious?
01:55	cark	i think you're looking at the wrong place ...
01:55	cark	you have these loops in fetch and more
01:55	mebaran151	(def ts (apply concat (iterate (fn [x] (prn "MOAR")) 2)))
01:55	clojurebot	x is y
01:55	mebaran151	that function displays the exact same behavior
01:56	mebaran151	,(def ts (apply concat (iterate (fn [x] (prn "MOAR")) 2)))
01:56	clojurebot	DENIED
01:56	mebaran151	printed 3 times to my screen
01:57	mebaran151	I think it must be in the application of concat, as concat works through its 3 overloaded forms
01:58	cark	that makes sense
01:58	mebaran151	,(apply concat (iterate (fn [x] (prn "MOAR")) 2)))
01:58	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
01:59	mebaran151	,(apply concat (iterate (fn [x] (prn "MOAR")) 2))
01:59	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
01:59	mebaran151	,(apply concat (iterate 2 (fn [x] (prn "MOAR")))
01:59	clojurebot	EOF while reading
01:59	cark	~def concat
01:59	mebaran151	anyway to get a concat that doesn't do this
01:59	mebaran151	?
02:00	mebaran151	,(apply concat (iterate 2 (fn [x] (prn "MOAR"))))
02:00	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
02:00	cark	use lazyseq
02:00	cark	make a function forit
02:01	mebaran151	so I'd just recursively hit that function or something?
02:01	cark	~doc mapcat
02:01	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
02:02	cark	~def mapcat
02:02	cark	mhh nope
02:03	mebaran151	it isn't that big deal: in fact it's downright useful for use in db-list (where I'd probably write some prefetching logic anyhow)
02:04	cark	i'm pretty sure you can do this with lazy-seq ...but yes if it's usefull why bother =)
02:06	mebaran151	my other option is just to pad it with nils
02:07	cark	that's ugly =/
02:08	mebaran151	then it only hits me once
02:11	mebaran151	yep
02:11	mebaran151	padding with three nils makes it all work out okay
02:13	mebaran151	(apply concat (concat [nil nil nil] (iterate (fn [n] (prn "MOAR") n) [2]))))
02:13	mebaran151	nasty looking but functional
02:17	mebaran151	,(apply concat (concat [nil nil nil] (iterate (fn [n] (prn "MOAR") n) [2]))))
02:17	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
02:18	mebaran151	I didn't see that one coming.....
03:00	LauJensen	Top of the morning gents
06:01	cgrand	Hi LauJensen!
06:01	LauJensen	Mr. Grand! Good to see you
07:32	JimiDini	Hi
07:33	JimiDini	sopi: I got your question about status of data. Unfortunately I don't have access to verify the status. X-Fade does
07:41	Fossi	is the only way to get a float[] (make-array (. Float TYPE) ) and putting stuff in there? or is there a way to use into-array or such?
07:42	Chousuke	Fossi: (into-array Float/TYPE your-seq)?
07:43	Chousuke	(You should really avoid using . directly. it's so ugly :()
07:43	Fossi	Chousuke: i got the (. from the docs ;p
07:44	Chousuke	well, Float/TYPE does expand to (. Float TYPE)
07:44	Chousuke	... hmm
07:44	Fossi	ah. great http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc27 doesn't mention the type variant
07:45	Chousuke	Actually, I wonder what Clojure does if a class had a static field identical to an instance field in Class
07:45	Chousuke	because then (. FooClass fieldName) would be ambiguous
07:48	Chousuke	hmm, looks like it will choose the static field for that form.
07:48	Fossi	ah, even better: (float-array 10)
08:24	angerman	yep, :)
08:38	rhickey	git question: we have both a tag and a branch 1.0 in the clojure repo, whenever I do anything with git with 1.0 I get a "warning: refname '1.0' is ambiguous.", but it seems to proceed. What does it use by default, the branch or tag?
08:43	Chouser	#git says: see man git-rev-parse. The tag takes precendence.
08:43	rhickey	so, git checkout 1.0 pulls the tag
08:43	rhickey	how do we apply patches to 1.0?
08:44	opqdonut	checkout, git-apply, commit?
08:44	rhickey	opqdonut: the question is about disambiguating the tag from the branch
08:45	opqdonut	have you tried "git checkout branches/1.0"
08:45	opqdonut	err, "heads/1.0" that should be
08:46	opqdonut	If you happen to have both heads/master and tags/master, you can explicitly say heads/master to tell git which one you mean.
08:46	opqdonut	says git-rev-parse
08:47	rhickey	so anyone who says checkout 1.0 will always get the tag snapshot and everything else we need to do with the branch needs to be qualified?
08:47	opqdonut	basically, yes
08:47	rhickey	ugh
08:47	angerman	rhickey: did you ask in #git already?
08:48	rhickey	angerman: no
08:48	angerman	found them helpful the last time I asked ;)
08:48	rhickey	we need to make a policy decision as to whether we want to work that way, no patches applied to 1.0 yet afaik
08:49	rhickey	this is just what we got be default from the svn import
08:49	Chouser	I think that's right. can we rename the tag to 1.0.0 ?
08:49	rhickey	by default
08:50	opqdonut	release-1.0.0 or something might be a better tag name
08:50	rhickey	Chouser: I don't think you can rename tags once people have seen them
08:50	Chouser	ugh
08:54	Chouser	bleh. maybe rename the branch (or create a new one) 1.0.x
09:07	angerman	how does clojure handle the keyword arguments?
09:07	Chouser	it doesn't.
09:07	Chouser	or put another way, what keyword arguements?
09:08	angerman	like in (gen-class :extends )
09:09	angerman	I'm wondering how I could rewrite my database abstraction layer to be lisp agnostic... I like clojureql's approach, but maye (query "MyKind" :where (and (= ...)) :order-by xyz)
09:09	angerman	but if clojure does not support keyworded arguments by default, I guess I'll just not use them
09:12	durka42	not by default, but you could construct something with hash-map
09:12	Chouser	you could use clojure.contrib.def/defnk
09:18	angerman	ohh dang. I need naturally sorted results. hmm.
09:20	angerman	how would I sort a vector in clojure if my vectore looks someting like [{:pos 0 :name "x"} ... {:pos 20 :name "x"}] ... obviously not sorted beforehand
09:24	Neronus	angerman (sort-by #(% :pos) vector) ?
09:25	angerman	Neronus: thanks, will try.
09:26	rhickey	so I'm pretty happy with the thread safety now for mutable vectors, as well as the API
09:26	rhickey	basically mutable vectors enforce use in a single thread
09:26	rhickey	all mutating ops have ! appended
09:27	rhickey	but count/get/nth/invoke all work with normal API, yet check thread also
09:27	rhickey	no use after immutable! call
09:27	rhickey	so, no fast and safe
09:27	rhickey	now fast and safe
09:29	rhickey	I'm amazed, but thread check was practically free perf-wise. Apparently HotSpot caches Thread/currentThread in a register or something
09:30	Chouser	what does "no use after immutable! call" mean?
09:30	rhickey	Chouser: throws an exception
09:31	Chouser	a mutating ! op after an immutable! call throws?
09:31	rhickey	Chouser: all calls throw after immutable!
09:32	Chouser	oh! on the old mutable thing. immutable! returns what you want to use.
09:34	rhickey	the idea is to support single flow usage, just like functional style but with no persistence, trying to avoid bash-in-place use
09:34	rhickey	so you can take normal (but non-persistent, non-aliasing) functional use and add mutable at front, some !'s and immutable! at end for a batch editing session
09:34	rhickey	new is the protection against use in other Threads
09:34	angerman	whee, sorting works. it's dead stupid but it does work. Hmm.
09:34	rhickey	throws if used in thread other than the one that called mutable
09:35	rhickey	Chouser: exactly
09:36	rhickey	originally I had supported calling immutable! then continuing editing, but there's no perf advantage over calling mutable again, and it is much clearer
09:37	Chouser	sounds really good.
09:37	rhickey	pv -> (mutable pv) -> mv -> edits! -> (immutable! mv) -> pv
09:37	Chouser	with structural sharing throughout
09:38	rhickey	the thread protection takes it to a whole new level, as such use, even with multiple collections is truly safe and a lot more flexible than either all-methods-synchronized (like j.u.Vector) or, shudder, locking
09:39	rhickey	the fact that this works, as does parallel vector map, with the exact same data structure set is incredibly powerful
09:45	Chousuke	angerman, Neronus: (sort-by :pos vector) is enough :)
09:51	Chousuke	rhickey: Maybe you just need to merge them to master to get people to test :P
09:51	rhickey	Chousuke: yup
09:51	Chousuke	I wonder if undoing a merge is as easy as reverting the merge commit, though.
09:53	AWizzArd	As clojure.lang.RT.conj() returns an IPersistentCollection it means I have to cast every time (in Java) when I want to conj something on my vector, right?
09:54	Chouser	casting doesn't have runtime cost, afaik
09:56	AWizzArd	No, that's not a problem. I was just curious if there is a trick to go around that need for casting :-)
09:56	cemerick	Jomyoot: perst is the most likely candidate, IMO. I've enjoyed working with it so far.
09:57	angerman	ohh no. clojures json seems to choke on utf-8 :/
09:57	Chouser	AWizzArd: you could call PersistentVector.cons() instead.
09:57	danlarkin	angerman: clojure-json? what input
09:58	cemerick	writing something like that in clojure would make the API a whole lot cleaner, but reinventing proper transactionality, etc., is not something I'm qualified to do (or interested in tackling)
09:58	angerman	danlarkin: using clojures contrib json module
09:58	angerman	but it seems to encode it correctly
09:58	angerman	now I need to find out where the issue resided
09:59	cemerick	AWizzArd: What Chouser said. Polymorphism is nifty :-)
10:00	rhickey	cemerick: covariant returns re nifty, were missing in C#
10:00	angerman	hmm jtable ... hmmm
10:01	cemerick	rhickey: When I left the shores of scala, I promised myself I'd forget everything I knew about covariance, contravariance, etc etc :-)
10:07	AWizzArd	Chouser and cemerick: yeah, good trick, that saves a few keystrokes, good.
10:12	angerman	anyone any idea how to tackle unicode from jtable -(json)-> server -(json)-> jtable?
10:17	danlarkin	angerman: what's the step that fails?
10:36	Neronus	Is there an intelligent way to check if (map fn o) can be used with object o (other than the exception way)?
10:46	LauJensen	Neronus: Generally if (seq? o) is true, then map should work
10:47	Neronus	yeah, but map works for arrays too, and (seq? (int-array 10)) == false
10:47	stuartsierra	No, seq? tests if o is already a sequence.
10:48	Chouser	there's a 'seqable?' in clojure.contrib.core, but I'd wonder if it's thr right solution.
10:49	rhickey	Neronus: in what situation would you be calling map speculatively?
10:49	Chouser	Neronus: you really want anything that map can work on? And how will you handle the failure?
10:54	rhickey	mutable vectors and latest ensure code now in master
10:55	Chouser	exciting!!
10:55	stuartsierra	What's the purpose of mutable vectors in this case?
10:55	cemerick	very good news :-)
10:55	cemerick	next week (hopefully!) we're going to set up our build system to always build against clojure's head automatically
10:56	Chouser	stuartsierra: chest-crushing, wind-whipping speed.
10:56	stuartsierra	oh my
10:56	Chouser	:-)
10:56	stuartsierra	In a single-threaded context?
10:56	Chousuke	stuartsierra: it's supposed to be a way to do a "batch update" I guess.
10:57	Chousuke	a good example is into, I guess.
10:57	Chousuke	... I guess too many things.
10:57	Chousuke	:P
10:57	Neronus	Chouser, rhickey: I want to do something to all the keys of all maps contained in a collection, recursively. i.e. if a map is found in a collection which is contained in another map, I want to do that for the keys of the innermost map, too. Anything that is not mappable is just left as it is
10:57	rhickey	stuartsierra: if you have a pure function returning a vector, but building that vector takes a lot of steps, you can get a thread safe mutable version of a vector in O(1), make changes to it in a functional style, just using assoc!, conj! etc, then get an immutable persistent vector to return in O(1)
10:58	stuartsierra	got it
10:58	stuartsierra	smart
10:58	Chouser	Neronus: you probably just want 'coll?' then. Remember that Java arrays, Strings, etc. are mappable
10:58	cemerick	rhickey: the same thing is coming for all data structures, right?
10:59	Neronus	Chouser: Again, not true for e.g. arrays
11:00	Chouser	Neronus: what's not true for arrays?
11:00	Chousuke	,(coll? (float-array 1))
11:00	clojurebot	false
11:00	rhickey	cemerick: sure, patches welcome :)
11:00	cemerick	ah, I thought you had already started work on maps :-)
11:01	rhickey	cemerick: I haven't, but I think same the mechanism will apply
11:01	cemerick	I must have transformed a similar comment of yours in my head into ("...and I'm going to apply it to them forthwith!" :-P )
11:02	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "hest-crushing, wind-whipping speed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84670
11:02	stuartsierra	woah!
11:02	rhickey	note how you don't even change the structure of your functional code
11:03	cemerick	drool
11:04	Neronus	Chousuke: Chousuke demonstrated what I mean
11:05	Chousuke	:P
11:06	stuartsierra	That actually answers a question someone brought up on the group -- what if the compiler could substitute mutable structures for immutable when it's safe to do so. It's not automatic, but that's what you've done here.
11:07	Neronus	grr
11:07	Chouser	Neronus: you're okay with all such things becoming lazy seqs?
11:07	cemerick	sometime last week, someone was talking about decorating fns with metadata indicating that they're pure, so that the compiler could do just that.
11:08	Neronus	Chouser: Yupp
11:08	Chouser	well, maybe contrib core sequable? is what you want
11:10	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "safe at every speed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84672
11:10	stuartsierra	Ah, but careful, (seqable? "string") is true.
11:10	danlarkin	cough bad pun
11:13	LauJensen	Is it just me, or this idea of a mutable vector a little icky and scary?
11:13	clojurebot	this is not a bug
11:14	rhickey	LauJensen: don't use them
11:14	LauJensen	rhickey: dont pout, I just meant generally, in a language which so fully defaults to immutable datatypes, isnt there a better way to handle this?
11:14	stuartsierra	rhickey: I think it's the scripting folks who want to write APIs that take either a single object or a collection.
11:15	rhickey	what happens when we define seq on non-collection objects to enumerate their JavaBean properties?
11:15	stuartsierra	i.e., a Thing and a collection of Things should be "the same." I don't agree, but I get it.
11:15	stuartsierra	Right, seq is more general than just collections.
11:16	cemerick	LauJensen: it's perfectly proper when used in conjunction with pure fns
11:16	rhickey	LauJensen: better way to handle what?
11:16	stuartsierra	I think a universal "aggregate?" predicate might be useful.
11:16	LauJensen	rhickey: The fact that you want a mutable object
11:16	rhickey	stuartsierra: I guess I see seqable? as perpetually ready to break
11:16	LauJensen	cemerick: How so ?
11:17	rhickey	LauJensen: I don't want a mutable object, I want the fastest speed in a known, linear, isolated context
11:17	stuartsierra	rhickey: I agree. What people really want is a single predicate that asks "is this a single thing or a collection of things?"
11:17	cemerick	LauJensen: because you really don't care what happens to intermediate representations within a pure fn, you only care about the result value
11:17	cemerick	resulting*
11:17	rhickey	stuartsierra: exactly, and they will need to option to include strings or not in that logic
11:18	LauJensen	Ok
11:18	stuartsierra	I think most people don't think of strings as collections, unless they grew up on C. :)
11:19	LauJensen	cemerick: I follow that logic actually :) I just had the notion that all things mutable are evil.
11:19	jdz	world is not black and white
11:19	rhickey	LauJensen: the beautiful thing is, you write your app as always and only when you have a bottleneck need you tap into this capability, without restructuring your code. Also some library things will do this by default, like "into"
11:19	stuartsierra	LauJensen: I think shared mutable things are evil.
11:20	rhickey	stuartsierra: right and these things are unshareable
11:20	LauJensen	rhickey: Sounds good. So only when I have a vector operation which is taking too long will I use this. Got it
11:20	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Agreed
11:21	rhickey	They also don't support the persistent modification interface, so assoc/conj etc fail, so you can't accidentally leak them into code expecting persistent data structures
11:21	LauJensen	Perfect!
11:22	LauJensen	That type of thinking really makes me love clojure - It protects me against me :)
11:22	stuartsierra	Without preventing you from doing what you want to do when you know what you're doing. :)
11:23	LauJensen	I think this calls for a T-Shirt
11:23	rhickey	stuartsierra: well, they do in some sense, since for example you might be able to share mutable things between threads if you knew what you were doing, these prevent it
11:24	rhickey	I think thread-local assurance is a huge deal, another safe model other than locks
11:24	Chouser	most languages attempt to protect you from yourself in some cases and to some extent, while letting you do "dangerous" things in other cases.
11:24	stuartsierra	Ok, fair enough, but you can always create Java collections if you want to be really sneaky.
11:25	LauJensen	hehe
11:25	rhickey	with a lot of power since it supports both composite work on one data structure and work involving multiple data structures
11:25	Chouser	the question is how well does a particular language fit with your own experience of what is dangerous vs. what is necessary
11:25	rhickey	stuartsierra: true, I'm trying to make it so you'd never be tempted by that
11:25	Chouser	this drives some people to enjoy coding in C, because they're unwilling to give up direct pointer manipulation.
11:26	cemerick	the answer to that question is probably directly corollated with the quality/type of programmers you have around you
11:26	stuartsierra	Code us not into temptation, but dissociate us from mutability.
11:27	rhickey	:)
11:28	LauJensen	rhickey: Could you define what you mean when you say 'thread-local assurance' ?
11:29	rhickey	LauJensen: rhickey pasted "safe at every speed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84672
11:29	rhickey	If you try to use one of these mutable things from other than the thread on which they were created it will throw an exception
11:30	LauJensen	Thats awesome!
11:31	rhickey	It when coupled with O(1) to/from immutable+persistent, this is, IMO, game-changing
11:32	stuartsierra	yes, yes
11:33	LauJensen	rhickey: You should get a blog going and sell subscriptions :) I dont want to be the one to tell you to charge, but I think you could :)
11:34	stuartsierra	Actually, sounds like a good topic for one of the functional programming conferences.
11:34	stuartsierra	IFL 2009 is coming up.
11:34	stuartsierra	Right across the Hudson. :)
11:34	Chouser	maybe it'd be easier to sell a writeup as an article to a magazine that already has a compensation model.
11:36	cemerick	do authors get paid for magazine articles anymore? (outside of the mainstream press?)
11:37	stuartsierra	a little, not much
11:43	angerman	so with all this parrallelism of clojure can we have some math libs that serioulsy use the parrellism and show that clojure is fast?
11:45	stuartsierra	Go for it. :)
11:46	rhickey	angerman: there's a third leg to to this Clojure perf work - parallelism, safe mutability, and finally primitives in Clojure's vectors and fns, the latter is still to come, and will be 'limited' to longs and doubles
11:46	stuartsierra	why longs & doubles?
11:55	LauJensen	stuartsierra: ints are too small, doubles have similar speed to floats? :)
11:56	cemerick	LauJensen: I've been advised by people who would know that doubles should be faster than floats in general.
11:57	LauJensen	Cool - I wasnt quite sure so I took the safe route: theyre similar :)
11:58	cemerick	I've yet to benchmark the difference in our case, but the rationale I heard made sense to me at the time. :-)
11:58	stuartsierra	ok, just curious
11:59	Neronus	Chouser: yeah, thanks, sequable? works for me
11:59	clojurebot	Why are you asking him
11:59	cemerick	parallelizable primitive arrays! I never thought I'd see the day :-P
12:02	hiredman	~botsnack
12:02	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
12:02	rhickey	stuartsierra: because longs and doubles can accommodate the smaller primitives without loss
12:03	stuartsierra	Ok, but what if you had a huge array of 'short's?
12:03	rhickey	float->double byte->short->char->int->long
12:03	cemerick	stuartsierra: RAM is cheap?
12:03	stuartsierra	And they wouldn't fit in memory as an array of longs?
12:04	stuartsierra	I'm thinking search engines, where you might have a billion-element array.
12:04	rhickey	stuartsierra: oh well, memory is getting cheaper and bigger
12:04	cemerick	you can always start packing bits
12:05	cemerick	(if you care that much)
12:06	stuartsierra	Ok, I guess. Won't affect me personally. But I know people who never have enough RAM.
12:06	rhickey	but each supported type is a multiplier, i.e. supporting n arg types means n^num-args variations, I'm thinking 3 (Object/long/double) with support for up to 4 args
12:06	stuartsierra	I understand the problem.
12:07	stuartsierra	Code generation!
12:08	rhickey	there may be some flex in the data structures vs fn calling, I'm mostly fixed on long/double for fns, it might be possible to have vectors of shorts going in/out as longs
12:09	rhickey	stuartsierra: it's not a code generation problem (FWIW, I generated the original IFn overloads in CL), it's a vtable size thing, I'm concerned about that getting out of hand
12:09	rhickey	oh, yes, fourth leg of perf tuning is new new, in progress
12:10	stuartsierra	ah, ok
12:11	hiredman	,(import 'clojure.lang.AFn)
12:11	clojurebot	clojure.lang.AFn
12:12	rhickey	one thing's for sure, drawing conclusions about Clojure perf now is very premature, when all of these are in place it will be stunning
12:12	hiredman	,((new [AFn] (invoke [] "foo")))
12:12	clojurebot	"foo"
12:14	rhickey	has anyone tried new new's signature inference? (other than that ^^) :)
12:14	rhickey	new new is now the only branch not merged into master
12:15	Chouser	rhickey: I started going through contrib again, but haven't had the time to finish
12:15	Chouser	...little time though it should take.
12:16	rhickey	I swapped out future and promise, where else do we have proxy? xml I guess
12:16	cemerick	rhickey: I'll probably start beating on it next week.
12:17	rhickey	new new docs in progress: https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/New_new
12:17	rhickey	volatile now works
12:17	rhickey	only missing non-reflective self calls
12:17	Chousuke	hmm
12:17	rhickey	and stable names during AOT
12:18	Chousuke	parallel, inspector and xml have proxy calls.
12:18	Chousuke	and core_proxy of course :P
12:18	cemerick	rhickey: how are captured locals stored? It'd be great if they were actual fields, with nice (identical, when possible?) names...
12:18	rhickey	parallel is going to be deprecated
12:19	Chousuke	heh
12:19	Chousuke	well, that's where most of the proxy calls are
12:19	rhickey	cemerick: they are but I am loathe to promise that. The semantics of this are simpler than classes with fields etc
12:20	cemerick	rhickey: for goodness' sake, think of the tools...! ;-)
12:20	Jomyoot	what is the best editor for clojure these days?
12:20	Jomyoot	still Emacs?
12:21	technomancy	some things never change. =)
12:21	rhickey	cemerick: what I am trying to do is some up with a story I could explain without reference to Java/C# etc. Then and only then, there could be a description of the intended (non-portable) mapping to host constructs
12:21	rhickey	cemerick: think of Chouser, writing ClojureScript!
12:22	cemerick	heh
12:22	rhickey	cemerick: targeting Javascript is a big deal, and only going to become bigger IMO
12:23	cemerick	clojurescript is pretty crazily wonderful -- but still crazy :-)
12:23	rhickey	cemerick: Is GWT crazy, IYO?
12:24	rhickey	JS engines are the VMs of the browsers
12:24	Chouser	GWT is crazier. Given the choice between writing in Java and Javascript, I choose Java.
12:24	cemerick	rhickey: in concept, no -- and neither is clojurescript. But I'm guessing the latter will always have a footprint issue.
12:24	stuartsierra	And these days they do JIT compilation, just like the JVM.
12:24	hiredman	huh, assembla turns ascii smilies into images
12:24	Jomyoot	Does ECB work well with clojrue?
12:24	Chouser	gah!
12:25	Chouser	Javascript! I choose Javascript!
12:25	Chouser	sheesh
12:25	technomancy	Jomyoot: ECB is kind of pointless for Clojure IIRC
12:25	cemerick	but then, it's all in what you're doing, too. For the web stuff I care to bother with, I'd much rather have a very thin remoting layer so I can touch clojure fns running on the server super-easy.
12:25	technomancy	it's for Complicated Languages
12:25	Jomyoot	how come?
12:25	Jomyoot	technomancy: what if i need project browser like in textmate?
12:26	Jomyoot	showing folder trees
12:26	technomancy	Jomyoot: (a) you probably don't; you just think you do and (b) you can use speedbar by itself without ECB. =)
12:26	cemerick	I really dislike web development, which explains a lot of my preferences :-)
12:27	rhickey	cemerick: me too, ClojureScript is my best hope :)
12:31	stuartsierra	I always worry about *-to-JavaScript translators because you have to think about three layers at once -- the source language, the translator, and JavaScript. All three have quirks.
12:33	alrex021	How do I, if possible, use :gen-class and run compile in REPL? I am following the http://clojure.org/compilation hello example and get the following exception in my REPL: "Could not locate clojure/examples/hello__init.class or clojure/examples/hello.clj on classpath"
12:33	Jomyoot	how good is vimclojure?
12:34	kotarak	Jomyoot: good (shameless advertisement)
12:34	kotarak	Jomyoot: but has its quirks
12:34	Jomyoot	kotarak: you made it?
12:34	Jomyoot	what are the quirks?
12:34	kotarak	yes
12:34	Jomyoot	http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html it looks very good for formating though
12:34	Jomyoot	lining up the columns
12:34	cemerick	stuartsierra: js is the new bytecode? shudder
12:35	Chouser	cemerick: so clearly it needs a way to embed source filename and linenumbers
12:35	Chouser	:-)
12:35	stuartsierra	cemerick: it's true though, look at Chrome, Gmail, iPhones, Palm's Web OS...
12:36	kotarak	Jomyoot: it uses the introspection of clojure to provide dynamic things. That means, that it tries to load the file you are editing. => it executes code, must not contain syntax errors... hiredman doesn't like that, for such cases you can turn off dynamic features and just use the static things vim provides.
12:36	kotarak	Jomyoot: I used to this style and it works perfectly for me.
12:37	kotarak	Jomyoot: the static things like formatting, syntax highlighting, static completion, are on par with emacs, enclojure, ... you name it.
12:38	Jomyoot	so typically does emacs or vim wins?
12:38	stuartsierra	That's been going on for decades.
12:38	kotarak	Jomyoot: neither, a matter taste I guess
12:38	rhickey	cinc->js ftw!
12:39	Jomyoot	can emacs line up columns like in vimclojure?
12:39	Jomyoot	http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
12:39	technomancy	sure; M-x align-regexp
12:39	kotarak	It would be surprised if not...
12:39	kotarak	s/It/I/
12:42	cemerick	stuartsierra: all that heat just makes me want to dive under the bed until the market makes some real decisions. I don't want to go platform-hopping every 6 months because Google, Apple, Palm, and 500 spinning VC-backed pre-revenue "companies" collectively sneeze.
12:43	Chouser	I would guess the safe-mutable collections will be an even bigger win for JS VMs than it is for JVM.
12:43	cemerick	yeah, I'd presume the VMs' GCs are relatively primitive.
12:43	stuartsierra	cemerick: In general, though, everyone's coalescing around HTML + CSS + JS as a user interface standard, for better or for worse.
12:45	cemerick	stuartsierra: oh, don't get me wrong, I think it's for the better! What I really dislike is getting led around by the nose by platform vendors, which is inevitable in any immature tech market.
12:45	Chouser	cemerick: so quit whining and just use sliverlight already.
12:45	rhickey	ouch!
12:45	stuartsierra	Sure, the mobile world is going to be hairy for the next couple of years. But hey, three years ago we couldn't even write mobile apps.
12:46	cemerick	Chouser: better throw out that wink really fast! :-P
12:46	rhickey	I don't think js in browsers is going away
12:46	Chouser	;-)
12:46	cemerick	:-D
12:50	Jomyoot	Is Rich Hickey still using Aquamac?
12:54	technomancy	Jomyoot: yeah, but he doesn't use slime
12:55	technomancy	presumably because he knows what the code will do before it executes. =)
12:55	Jomyoot	why aquamacs and not carbon or cocoa emacs?
12:55	Jomyoot	u know?
12:55	LauJensen	And he doesnt use a keyboard either.. he just stays at the compiler until it obeys
12:55	LauJensen	stares...
12:56	technomancy	Jomyoot: I don't know. I have heard of a number of weird edge-casey bugs with aquamacs so I don't recommend it myself.
12:56	technomancy	also since it's not portable it's hard for people to test on it.
12:56	stuartsierra	I use it, no problem.
12:56	clojurebot	"There is no problem in computer programming which cannot be solved by an added level of indirection." -- Dr Maurice Wilkes
13:02	rhickey	so, I need a term for these single-threaded mutable collections that can share structure with the persistent collections. "Mutable" doesn't seem to do them justice, and has bad implications
13:02	stuartsierra	"fast"
13:02	rhickey	heh
13:02	rhickey	editable views?
13:03	rhickey	batch structures?
13:03	stuartsierra	that implies some separate, concrete backing object
13:03	stuartsierra	batch structures is ok
13:03	rhickey	stuartsierra: yeah, view is scary, since the source is inviolate
13:04	stuartsierra	"protean"
13:04	stuartsierra	"mercurial"
13:05	stuartsierra	"builder structures"
13:06	stuartsierra	"growth structure"
13:07	stuartsierra	"fillable container"
13:08	Chousuke	fillable container sounds redundant :P
13:08	stuartsierra	"agglomerator"
13:08	rhickey	breeder/composer/producer
13:09	stuartsierra	"accumulator"
13:09	rhickey	interesting
13:10	rhickey	cached
13:10	rhickey	very overloaded I know
13:10	stuartsierra	yeah, "cached" makes me think memoization
13:10	stuartsierra	"collector"
13:11	rhickey	assembler, maker
13:11	rhickey	ooh, collector
13:12	kotarak	drain
13:12	rhickey	put your data in the drain? :)
13:12	rhickey	hrm
13:12	durka42	can you flush the drain?
13:13	stuartsierra	collector/accumulator because they're like accumulator functions in Common Lisp loops.
13:13	Chousuke	hoard :P
13:14	stuartsierra	That's actually not bad, you're hoarding a collection. :)
13:14	rhickey	stuartsierra: hmm, that analogy isn;t helping me. but I like collector. Whatever name wins could replace (mutable coll) and needs a counterpart for yielding the immutable result
13:14	stuartsierra	"finalize"
13:15	rhickey	urk
13:15	kotarak	(flush (drain coll)) :P ;)
13:15	stuartsierra	:)
13:15	stuartsierra	"realize"
13:15	stuartsierra	"conclude"
13:15	rottcodd	thaw/freeze
13:15	Chousuke	"seal"
13:15	rhickey	also, one of the things you can do with these is only remove things, in which case you aren't collecting items, but changes
13:15	Chousuke	and unseal
13:16	rhickey	If it could incorporate some sense of the linearity/single-threadedness that would be good too
13:17	stuartsierra	isolate / share
13:17	rhickey	except (isolate x) doesn't
13:17	stuartsierra	ok
13:17	stuartsierra	tap / untap
13:18	stuartsierra	crack / seal
13:19	stuartsierra	immediate / persistent
13:20	Chousuke	tether/unleash
13:20	rhickey	(foo immutable-thing) -> threaded-mutable-thing -> (bar threaded-mutable-thing) -> immutable-thing, none of which affects or hinders immutable-thing
13:21	stuartsierra	threadify / unthreadify :P
13:21	danlarkin	I like mutable/persistent, not sure why you don't like mutable though
13:21	Chouser	it's cute that immutable! has a ! but mutable does not.
13:22	stuartsierra	transient / persistent
13:22	rhickey	danlarkin: well, and ArrayList is mutable too, but much less powerful
13:22	rhickey	an ArrayList
13:22	rhickey	and less safe
13:23	rhickey	so there are two notions in my view, one is the data structure, and the other is the 'editing session'
13:23	Chouser	persistent! is nice, then you just need a noun for the safe-mutable thing itself which can also be used as the "factory" fn name.
13:23	kotarak	editor / save
13:25	rhickey	transient, ephemeral?
13:25	Chousuke	thread-bound?
13:25	Chousuke	hmm
13:26	rhickey	transient/persistent!
13:27	Chouser	chameleon
13:28	rhickey	I like transient, any objections?
13:30	Chouser	"bum" is shorter and less PC
13:30	rhickey	hah
13:30	opqdonut	how about apple/orange
13:30	Chouser	I guess their transience is no less defining than their other features.
13:31	danlarkin	it's too bad there's no word that means exactly "locally mutable"
13:31	hiredman	locutable
13:31	cgrand	in-flux/solid
13:32	rhickey	I think the term is kind of open when applied to data structures, so this method can define it. It is a great counterpart to persistent
13:33	Chouser	inconstans propinquus
13:35	rhickey	transient data structures "move" through various states, in a single-threaded manner
13:35	rhickey	they are not memory holes subject to poking from multiple threads
13:35	rhickey	and calling persistent! stops them
13:36	danlarkin	get-a-job!
13:36	rhickey	Chouser: is that a kind of bird or something?
13:37	rhickey	very funny that transient makes you guys think of drifters
13:38	Chouser	rhickey: that's a lame attempt at a latin phrase for locally mutable
13:38	Chouser	I just find it interesting that when other sciences need to name things, they string together latin words until it's unique and then apparently truncate to one or two syllables
13:39	rhickey	I like the sense of motion and the implied short-livedness in transient
13:39	rhickey	Chouser: :)
13:39	Chousuke	rhickey: plus it sounds cool and mysterious
13:39	Chousuke	which is good for catching people's attention
13:39	rhickey	Chousuke: there you go!
13:40	Chouser	while comp. sci. hunts around for related english thing and then overloads it to death, "tree" being the classic example.
13:40	rhickey	at least they'll have to consider what it means, with mutable they'll presume they know
13:41	rhickey	ok, well the bum objection notwithstanding, any other objections to transient?
13:43	Chouser	conclusive silence.
13:44	rhickey	ok, seems no one else likes it, but no one objects - transient it is - thanks for the help!
13:44	Chouser	ha!
13:44	rhickey	will be (transient pv) -> tv -> edit! tv -> (persistent! tv) -> pv
13:45	Chouser	and we can call the thing transients
13:45	Chouser	the things
13:45	rhickey	or bums
13:45	Chousuke	:P
13:46	Chouser	transient vectors -- that's indeed better than mutable vectors
13:46	Chousuke	also implies that you're not supposed to keep them around for long.
13:46	rhickey	it's a great fit - sparked by your call for (persistent! x)
13:47	Chouser	"persistent" was stuartsierra
13:48	rhickey	ok, creds/blame to him when he gets back from lunch
13:52	rhickey	and a persistent collection capable of producing a transient version? not all will be
13:53	rhickey	currently "editable"
13:55	Chouser	transable
13:57	Chouser	overpaid
13:57	rhickey	oh boy
13:58	Chouser	The state prior to becoming a bum might be "lazy", but I guess that won't work.
13:58	Fossi	;D
14:01	rhickey	transient == bum completely doesn't click with me, didn't even consider it
14:02	Chousuke	transient is apparently a PC way of saying it :P
14:02	Chouser	I didn't think of it 'til very late. Wasn't a particularly natuarl association.
14:03	Chouser	I think it was the plural form "transients" that made it click.
14:04	rhickey	it's a Java keyword, wonder if that will be a problem
14:05	rhickey	Sun's JVM seem pretty tolerant of names, but IBM's isn't
14:05	jwhitlark	What's the best way to suggest a minor update to the docs?
14:06	Chouser	ha! even in Java transient means not persistent.
14:06	Chousuke	I wasn
14:06	Chouser	just different meanings of both. :-)
14:06	rhickey	Chouser: for another definition of persistent
14:06	Chousuke	I wasn't even aware of transient. :/
14:06	Chousuke	the keyword that is.
14:08	jwhitlark	It would be helpful if the http://clojure.org/java_interop page had a quick note on the requirement to import java inner classes; it took me quite a while to find out.
14:08	jwhitlark	finally found it here: http://bradfordcross.blogspot.com/2009/05/using-inner-classes-from-clojure.html
14:08	jwhitlark	so it appears I'm not the only one.
14:09	Chousuke	I think it is mentioned there.
14:09	Chouser	"Note that nested classes are named EnclosingClass$NestedClass, per the JVM spec"
14:09	Chousuke	just not very noticeable. :/
14:09	rhickey	jwhitlark: it's in the second paragraph in the explanation of the Dot form
14:09	Chousuke	hm, looking through the list of java keywords, strictfp seems to be the only other keyword new to me.
14:10	Chouser	I wonder if a FAQ would be more scannable for some of these issues
14:10	jwhitlark	yea, I got the $ part of it, it was having to import it that wasn't obvious.
14:10	jwhitlark	unless I'm still missing something.
14:11	Chouser	well, the class name itself has the $ in it.
14:11	rhickey	the transients have moved in: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commits/master
14:11	technomancy	jwhitlark: me too; I thought importing the outer class would let you access the nested class
14:11	jwhitlark	I'd import the parent class, and try calling it with the $ syntax. I didn't expect that I'd have to import the inner class.
14:12	Chouser	If named Foo$Bar, Foo is a class but Bar is not -- must use Foo$Bar
14:12	Chouser	also the #1 example for class name aliases.
14:12	jwhitlark	technomancy: that's it. It wasn't the naming that was confusing, it was the deliberate import.
14:13	Chouser	You imported Foo and then tried to use Foo$Bar?
14:14	jwhitlark	Something along the lines of: "Inner classes must be specifically imported with the $ syntax" would have saved me a lot of puzzlement.
14:14	jwhitlark	yea.
14:14	jwhitlark	coming from Python, so perhaps it's a leftover from that.
14:14	Chouser	but they don't have to be imported at all, any more than other classes. :-/
14:15	Fossi	it's also non-obvious coming from java
14:15	Chouser	you can say com.company.Foo$Bar with no import
14:17	jwhitlark	true, but when you do (import '(com.company Foo)) a portion of population is going to expect Foo$bar to work.
14:17	jwhitlark	not saying it's right, just saying a single sentence addition would remove a stumbling block for some people.
14:18	Chouser	jwhitlark: I'm not arguing against a sentence, just not sure of the right wording.
14:19	Chouser	"must be imported" seems misleading
14:20	stuartsierra	"Note that nested Java classes are named OuterClass$InnerClass and must be imported as such."
14:20	Chouser	the thing is, each unqualified class name used must be specifically named in an import
14:20	Chouser	stuartsierra: you saw you won?
14:21	stuartsierra	yes. :-D
14:21	stuartsierra	Not that it matters.
14:21	jwhitlark	not sure what the wording should be.
14:21	Chouser	so whether it's a.b.Foo or a.b.Foo$Bar, you can't get away with only mentioning a.b to get to Foo or a.b.Foo to get to Foo$Bar
14:23	jwhitlark	so what would be the best way to express that inner classes aren't a special case?
14:23	jwhitlark	I think that's the assumption that got me into trouble. Thinking of the inner classes more as a member of field.
14:23	jwhitlark	s/of/or/g
14:24	jwhitlark	damn, got that wrong twice.
14:25	jwhitlark	perhaps: Note that inner classes are not a special case, and must either be explicitly imported or fully qualified.
14:28	jwhitlark	a little redundant with the docs that are already there, but makes a potential pitfall clear.
14:44	jwhitlark	Chouser: what do you think? Is that closer?
14:45	Chouser	jwhitlark: yeah. any suggestion on where to put it?
14:47	jwhitlark	well, the second paragraph of the dot special form discussion seems reasonable, but where it would have really helped me is in api/import
14:48	jwhitlark	I think either would do. I read them both several times when I was struggling with it.
14:49	Chouser	I think the import docstring is best. An example of Inner$Outer might be helpful there too.
14:49	jwhitlark	interesting aside: this is the first time I've had this type of problem with clojure. I'm really liking lisp and clojure in particular.
14:50	jwhitlark	I think that would do very nicely.
14:51	Chouser	"Note that inner classes (such as Inner$Outer) are not a special case, and must be fully qualified (mypackge.myname.Outer$Inner) or explicitly imported.
14:51	Chouser	"
14:51	rhickey	aren't they normally nested, not inner, classes?
14:52	Chouser	this is where my knowledge of Java breaks down.
14:53	Chouser	looks like both
14:53	Chouser	http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/javaOO/innerclasses.html
14:53	Chouser	http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/javaOO/nested.html
14:53	jwhitlark	hmm.. I think nested is more proper, but the one time I took a java course, the instructor called them inner.
14:53	rhickey	inner classes have a relationship to their enclosing instance, nested are more generally just lexically nested, and are the ones you're most likely to use from outside the class
14:54	jwhitlark	"Note that nested or inner classes ..."
14:54	jwhitlark	?
14:54	Chouser	"Note that nested or inner classes (such as Outer$Nested) are not a special case, and must be fully qualified (mypackge.myname.Outer$Nested) or explicitly imported.
14:55	jwhitlark	That would have done it for me.
14:59	jwhitlark	rhickey: I don't normally gush, but I wanted to thank you; even as inexperienced with clojure as I am, it feels like the most clean and powerful language I've ever used.
15:00	rhickey	jwhitlark: great! thanks
15:19	cemerick	is it safe to say that clojure is "more dependent" on jit than typical javac'd java? e.g. a particular clojure operation/fn/program requires more "runs" before it's performance settles into a minima?
15:19	cemerick	that's the impression I get, and I wonder if there's any basis to it.
15:21	stuartsierra	don't know, maybe the bytecode is less "efficient" on the first pass
15:39	lizp	hello, shouldn't this expression return 5 - ((first '(+ 2 3)) 2 3) ?
15:39	lizp	it returns 3
15:39	hiredman	,(first '(+ 2 3))
15:39	clojurebot	+
15:39	hiredman	,((first '(+ 2 3)) 2 3)
15:39	clojurebot	3
15:39	hiredman	,((first '(+ 2 3)) 2)
15:39	clojurebot	nil
15:40	Chousuke	lizp: that's because (first '(+ 3 2)) returns the symbol +, not the function
15:40	hiredman	oh
15:40	hiredman	duh
15:40	hiredman	,((first (list + 2 3)) 2)
15:40	clojurebot	2
15:40	Chousuke	('+ 3 2)
15:40	Chousuke	,('+ 3 2)
15:40	clojurebot	2
15:40	hiredman	,((first (list + 2 3)) 2 3)
15:40	clojurebot	5
15:40	Chousuke	lizp: symbols have an interesting property: they look themselves up in things when used as functions
15:41	Chousuke	lizp: but 3 is not associative, so you get nil; however, if there are two arguments, the latter gets used instead of nil
15:41	Chousuke	,('foo '{foo bar})
15:41	clojurebot	bar
15:41	Chousuke	,('fooz '{foo bar} 'default)
15:41	clojurebot	default
15:42	lizp	where can i read about the semantics of symbols/functions in clojure?
15:44	Chousuke	lizp: keywords are also functions. as are maps, sets and vectors
15:44	hiredman	well
15:44	hiredman	lizp: http://clojure.org/data_structures#toc10
15:45	avital	,'(+ 1 2)
15:45	clojurebot	(+ 1 2)
15:45	avital	,(list + 1 2)
15:45	clojurebot	(#<core$_PLUS___4094 clojure.core$_PLUS___4094@e5d622> 1 2)
15:45	hiredman	lizp: http://clojure.org/vars
15:45	hiredman	etc
15:45	avital	so what is ' exactly?
15:45	avital	isn't it the same as (list ...)?
15:45	hiredman	quote
15:46	hiredman	nope
15:46	hiredman	,'a
15:46	clojurebot	a
15:46	Chousuke	avital: it's "this is an unevaluated code literal"
15:46	kotarak	,a
15:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
15:46	hiredman	it keeps the quoted symbol from being evaluated
15:46	kotarak	,(list a)
15:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
15:46	kotarak	,'(a)
15:46	clojurebot	(a)
15:46	hiredman	' is a reader macro for (quote …)
15:46	kotarak	,(quote a)
15:46	clojurebot	a
15:47	Chousuke	avital: so while in clojure (+ 1 2) gets evaluated and produces 3, '(+ 1 2) produces the list that when evaluated as code would produce 3
15:47	hiredman	something quoted is what is read, without any evaluation
15:48	avital	,(eval 2)
15:48	clojurebot	DENIED
15:48	avital	oh what
15:48	Chousuke	eval is not allowed :)
15:48	avital	hehe
15:48	avital	so i see that (eval +) returns the + function and (eval 2) returns 2
15:48	Chousuke	avital: but remember that clojure code is not text. it's made of symbols, lists, vectors, keywords, maps and sets.
15:49	avital	is there another way to get the + function other than eval?
15:49	Chousuke	,+
15:49	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS___4094 clojure.core$_PLUS___4094@e5d622>
15:49	Chousuke	of course, that has an implicit eval
15:49	Chousuke	:P
15:49	hiredman	,(find-var '+)
15:49	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Symbol must be namespace-qualified
15:49	hiredman	,(find-var ns '+)
15:49	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$find-var
15:49	hiredman	bah
15:49	lizp	hehe
15:49	Chousuke	since the symbol +, when evaled, produces the + function
15:50	hiredman	,(find-var (symbol (str ns) (name '+)))
15:50	clojurebot	nil
15:50	avital	but is there a more direct way?
15:50	Chousuke	direct?
15:50	Chousuke	what could be more direct than +?
15:50	hiredman	avital: what are you trying to do?
15:50	hiredman	the symbol + evaluates to the function +
15:51	hiredman	so as long as the you don't quote it (stop evaluation) you will get the function
15:52	hiredman	…
15:52	avital_	sorry lost the last few messages, so is there a simple way to get the + function?
15:52	Chousuke	:P
15:52	Chousuke	,+
15:52	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS___4094 clojure.core$_PLUS___4094@e5d622>
15:52	Chousuke	there
15:52	Chousuke	the simplest possible way :9
15:53	cark	,(type +)
15:53	clojurebot	clojure.core$_PLUS___4094
15:53	hiredman	the symbol + evaluates to the function +, so if you don't quote + (stop the evaluation) you will get the function
15:53	cark	,(type '+)
15:53	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
15:53	cark	,(type (find-var 'clojure.core/+))
15:53	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
15:53	avital_	no but wait
15:53	hiredman	,(resolve '+)
15:53	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
15:54	hiredman	,(deref (resolve '+))
15:54	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS___4094 clojure.core$_PLUS___4094@e5d622>
15:54	avital_	so can we make the ((first '(+ 2 3)) 4 5) example work with minor modifications?
15:54	avital_	,((first '(,+ 2 3)) 4 5)
15:54	clojurebot	5
15:54	avital_	doesn't work
15:54	cark	ah nice hiredman =)
15:54	hiredman	((first `(~+ 2 3)) 4 5)
15:54	hiredman	,((first `(~+ 2 3)) 4 5)
15:54	clojurebot	9
15:54	avital_	wow ok what just happened there? :)
15:54	Fossi	what do you expect to get?
15:54	hiredman	avital_: ~ is unquote
15:55	hiredman	,((first '(~+ 2 3)) 4 5)
15:55	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
15:55	Chousuke	avital_: ` is a special kind of quote, and ~ unquotes :)
15:55	avital_	oh right
15:55	Chousuke	fo you get a list of a function, 2 and 3
15:55	avital_	ok great thanks"!
15:55	Chousuke	alternatively, you could just use a vector :P
15:55	hiredman	or a list
15:55	cark	avital_ : fossi's question might be worth answering
15:55	Chousuke	that IS a list
15:56	hiredman	,((first (list + 2 3)) 4 5)
15:56	clojurebot	9
15:56	avital_	cark
15:56	avital_	yeah sorry
15:56	Chousuke	hiredman: the syntax-quoted thing is almost teh same.
15:56	cark	this strikes me as a very strange way to do things
15:56	avital_	Fossi: I wanted to get 9, and hiredman's solution gives me 9.
15:56	avital_	I was just experimenting
15:56	Chousuke	,((first [+ - /]) 3 4) ; no need for quoting stuff
15:56	clojurebot	7
15:56	cark	oh ok
15:56	piggybox	this channel makes me feel like in #haskell...
15:56	cark	well that's not idiomatic at all
15:56	Chousuke	(the things in a vector are always evaluated)
15:56	Chouser	oh dear
15:56	Chousuke	unless the vector is quoted, of course :P
15:56	avital_	DISCLAIMER: THIS IS JUST EXPERIMENTATION TO UNDERSTAND CLOJURE'S LIST SEMANTICS
15:57	Fossi	omg, now i get it
15:57	Chouser	piggybox: what can we do to fix that?
15:57	hiredman	foo :: x -> a -> b
15:57	hiredman	now it is just like #haskell
15:57	Chousuke	hiredman: quick, do something cryptic with pl!
15:57	hiredman	clojurebot: numbers!
15:57	clojurebot	(pl reverse $ (↕reduce range $ 10 () λxy (↕conj inc $ y x)))
15:57	Chousuke	excellent!
15:57	hiredman	actually I don't think I reloaded pl
15:57	danlarkin	cult of lambda
15:58	hiredman	,(pl reverse $ (↕reduce range $ 10 () λxy (↕conj inc $ y x)))
15:58	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
15:59	piggybox	lOlrz
16:04	cemerick	hah
16:04	avital_	so why would i ever use ' and not `?
16:04	cemerick	what's pl, anyway?
16:05	hiredman	pl is a toy
16:05	Chouser	avital_: ` qualifies symbols into var names and class names
16:05	hiredman	,~a
16:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
16:05	hiredman	er
16:05	hiredman	,`a
16:05	clojurebot	sandbox/a
16:05	Chouser	,[`foo `map `Integer 'foo 'map 'Integer]
16:05	clojurebot	[sandbox/foo clojure.core/map java.lang.Integer foo map Integer]
16:05	hiredman	,'a
16:05	clojurebot	a
16:06	avital_	Chouser: my question was: if ` is a stronger form of ' that allow to use ~ inside, why would i ever use vanilla '?
16:06	avital_	oh
16:06	avital_	wht
16:06	avital_	hired just answered
16:06	avital_	sorry
16:06	avital_	hiredman: and what is sandbox/a... ?
16:07	hiredman	it is a namespace qualified symbol
16:07	avital_	and why is it that 'a and `a are diferent?
16:07	hiredman	symbols quoted with syntax-quote (`) are turned into full qualified symbols
16:07	hiredman	mostly
16:08	hiredman	' is the traditional simpler quoting
16:08	hiredman	` and ~ and ~@ are used alot for writing macros
16:09	avital_	hiredman: what is ~@?
16:10	hiredman	unquote splice
16:10	avital_	oh right
16:10	Quiark	,'a
16:10	clojurebot	a
16:10	hiredman	,`(1 2 ~@(list 3 4 5))
16:10	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
16:10	Quiark	,`a
16:10	clojurebot	sandbox/a
16:11	Quiark	,`a#
16:11	clojurebot	a__2992__auto__
16:11	hiredman	oh, right
16:11	tomoj	autogensyming is awesome
16:11	hiredman	gensyms working in syntax quote too
16:21	lizp	thanks btw!
16:58	JAS415	,a#
16:58	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a# in this context
16:59	rhickey	first cut at transient docs - feedback welcome: http://clojure.org/transients
16:59	Chousuke	foo# is a special feature of syntax-quote
17:02	technomancy	rhickey: I love the notion that there shouldn't be any "we do this in clojure's internal implementation, but you shouldn't do this in your own code" moments.
17:02	technomancy	very democratic
17:05	Chousuke	lisp is (or claims to be!) all about that, isn't it :)
17:05	angerman	thickey: not bad, I was able to understand it, eh >:)
17:08	Fossi	rhickey: good read
17:08	JAS415	I like using clojure as a java compiler
17:10	angerman	JAS415: isn't that what we all use clojure for? :)
17:11	stuartsierra	rhickey: good explanation of transients
17:11	JAS415	i guess i mean like pretending that java is the assembly language and then writing functions and macros that arrange the java into the right forms
17:11	JAS415	like clojure is the compiler
17:11	mebaran151	what version of clojure has transients?
17:12	rhickey	mebaran151: master
17:12	mebaran151	ah so it's bleeding edge stuff
17:12	angerman	JAS415: well, that's all Suns fault. If they hand's alised java with the jvm and java bytecode ...
17:14	Chousuke	JAS415: fortunately Clojure does not compile down to Java, but JVM bytecode.
17:14	rhickey	mebaran151: yes, I added that info on the page
17:15	Chousuke	I suppose as far as Clojure is concerned, Java is "just another JVM language" (also the implementation language, but...)
17:17	jwhitlark	JAS415: That's exactly how I think of java, the new assembly language.
17:17	mebaran151	it's the new COBOL
17:17	mebaran151	or FORTRAN
17:17	mebaran151	which ever old school, excessively verbose, down to the metal language floats your fancy
17:18	JAS415	right, java is just another jvm language, except clojure has really good support for calling it
17:18	JAS415	so you can write a macro that programmatically arranges java into the right clojure code to suite your puroses
17:18	Chousuke	Clojure doesn't call java code per se. it calls JVM code
17:18	JAS415	its like having a really really large amount of leverage over a language with a ton of libraries
17:19	JAS415	doesn't matter really
17:19	JAS415	concept is the same
17:19	Chousuke	I suppose the host interop matches best with java.
17:19	mebaran151	anyway are transients like tag types, only supposed to be used in dire emergencies?
17:19	JAS415	java just has most libraries
17:19	JAS415	fastest libraries too, which counts
17:20	mebaran151	eh, C has the most fast libraries, but I've never seen an ffi in which I really would invest a lot of faith
17:20	jwhitlark	I used to be really down on java programmers, then I realized who I needed to be down on were people who only wrote java.
17:20	Chousuke	JAS415: Well, the libraries could be written in Scala or Groovy too
17:21	jwhitlark	or jython, I suppose.
17:21	Chousuke	mebaran151: transients look like they can be used pretty safely anywhere, but I doubt it's worth the trouble unless you have a code path that is a bottleneck
17:21	JAS415	hmm, do we have (.. macro or proxy or genclass for scala or groovy?
17:21	mebaran151	don't forget JRuby, you could have Clojure on Cleets
17:21	mebaran151	*Cleats
17:21	jwhitlark	Which is actually an interesting idea for me; I could use my knowledge of the python standard library form clojure. hmmmm....
17:22	Chousuke	JAS415: how do you call a Scala method from java?
17:22	Chousuke	JAS415: do that, then translate to clojure interop. That is your scala interop.
17:22	mebaran151	Scala builds things that look very similar to Java classes
17:22	mebaran151	languages like JRuby and Groovy probably require a bit more dancing
17:22	Chousuke	not to mention clojure itself.
17:22	stuartsierra	JRuby's not hard, I use it.
17:23	Chousuke	Calling clojure stuff through the java interop would probably look a bit ugly... :P
17:23	mebaran151	that's what I meant
17:23	mebaran151	it would be nasty to write a ruby on rails app in clojure, even though it's technically possible
17:23	jwhitlark	what we need are reverse macros ;-)
17:24	jwhitlark	assuming that doesn't have a meaning that I'm unaware of.
17:24	stuartsierra	Well, if you use Java calling conventions as your common denominator, all the JVM languages create Java classes/methods.
17:25	headius	not necessarily
17:26	JAS415	sorry didn't mean to be rude and dissapear, had to keep dinner from burning...
17:26	mebaran151	couldn't some languages make some sort of nasty bytecode that might violate the nice neat modle of JVM classes and methods
17:26	stuartsierra	Not if they want the JVM to run it.
17:26	headius	jruby by default interprets code at first, so there's no classes or methods for "java" to call
17:26	Chousuke	,(.invoke (clojure.lang.Var/find (clojure.lang.Symbol/intern "clojure.core" "+")) 1 2) ; calling clojure through java interop...
17:26	clojurebot	DENIED
17:26	Chousuke	damn
17:27	headius	stuartsierra: I think you're making some assumptions about what the JVM expects...it's extremely liberal
17:27	headius	in scala, for example, you can't create a static Java method
17:27	headius	it's simply not possible
17:28	headius	on the other hand, a lot of scala's constructs can't easily be called directly from normal Java code because they've got mangled names or singleton abstractions or whatever
17:28	headius	scala does some really wild and scary things with bytecode and class/method structures
17:28	stuartsierra	ah, ok
17:28	JAS415	i was thinking about stuart, so for example let and def are private/public variables, defn- and def are functional equivalent (sort of)
17:28	stuartsierra	That's scala's fault, then. :)
17:28	hiredman	~scala
17:28	clojurebot	{((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
17:28	headius	clojure does too, really... a class per function immediately makes it harder to interop because you have a million little classes to link against
17:29	jwhitlark	The transients docs look very good. I went in to it on one end having never heard of it, and came out with a good understanding of when and why I'd use it. In one pass.
17:29	stuartsierra	But in Clojure you can generate nice normal-looking Java classes.
17:29	headius	which are just a shim around a million little classes
17:29	mebaran151	jwhitlark, agreed
17:29	Chousuke	headius: but, perversely, that's a requirement for smooth interop :P
17:29	headius	but yes, it's better for java
17:29	mebaran151	Clojure has really good conceptual documentation compared to most languages
17:29	headius	jruby's various java interop options do the same thing, as does groovy's
17:29	Fossi	no wonder
17:29	Chousuke	headius: since it's the only way for every function to sanely implement Callable and Runnable
17:29	jwhitlark	mebaran151: the best I've ever seen, actually.
17:30	headius	in almost every case where a language needs to present a "normal" looking Java type, they go above and beyond their own data structures and usually produce something artificial
17:30	headius	Chousuke: jruby does something similar, but all in memory
17:30	headius	when you compile a .rb it produces exactly one .class file
17:30	headius	that .class file generates method stubs on boot
17:30	Chousuke	mebaran151: Rich does a good job at explaining the concepts, but the actual API docs have much room for improvement.
17:31	mebaran151	totally agreed
17:31	mebaran151	there is much room for something that's more navigable
17:31	headius	so jruby doesn't have any easier time of interop...we still need to generate a synthetic Java type that is made up of our Ruby structures behind the scenes
17:32	hiredman	hmmm
17:32	mebaran151	maybe even something like the noobkit docs for ruby, that present a hierarchy for documentation
17:32	Chousuke	mebaran151: at least there are the "related functions" sections in the reference nowadays...
17:33	JAS415	it would have been cleaner if java had been implemented in clojure
17:33	technomancy	headius: I submitted a talk for RubyConf on using Clojure's STM and data structures from JRuby, so hopefully we'll see some JRuby love there. =)
17:33	headius	technomancy: neat
17:34	technomancy	I love the way JRuby procs implement Callable; made it really easy to use them with Clojure.
17:35	mebaran151	I wonder if there would be a seamless way adapt multimethods to operate on a ruby class hierarchy
17:37	mebaran151	the clojure api could actually use a comments section
17:37	headius	technomancy: we could improve that consistency a lot...but where we have it it's nice
17:38	headius	jruby's got a lot of baggage still
17:39	mebaran151	and maybe even quick notes as to what is lazy and what isn't
17:39	headius	I'm obviously very interested in language interop in general
17:39	headius	there's a lot of people who will never use clojure and prefer jruby, but getting access to clojure's structures would be great for them
17:40	headius	and lots of people who will never want to write ruby but use clojure, and then want to be able to interop with ruby apps or libraries
17:40	JAS415	clojure on ruby on rails
17:40	headius	it's unfortunate there hasn't been more interest among other language implementers in building a common interop protocol
17:40	mebaran151	as I said, Clojure on Cleats
17:40	headius	the only people who've ever worked on one, as far as I know, are me and Attila
17:41	headius	and mostly Attila
17:41	JAS415	the only thing i would worry about would be programs that use clojure/ruby/python/java/scala/groovy, where you have to have a huge breadth of knowledge to understand the entire codebase
17:42	headius	well, other than scala, those are all pretty easy to grasp at a glance
17:42	mebaran151	wouldn't the ffi stuff be a good conceptual starting point? it seems nasty, but I don't see any more common basis
17:42	headius	mixing scala into any codebase scares me, but I'm still of the opinion that scala is like programming gymnastics
17:42	mebaran151	I've seen ruby C++ C projects before, so it can't be THAT bad
17:42	JAS415	haha
17:43	JAS415	yeah i just worry about getting the reputationi CL has for maintnence difficulty
17:43	Chousuke	headius: every example of Scala I've seen thus far has been rather off-putting :P
17:43	headius	that will always be clojure's cross to bear
17:43	headius	Chousuke: I've seen some great examples of Scala...unfortunately I wrote all of them myself
17:44	headius	don't get me wrong, I like scala...but I fear it at the same time
17:44	Chousuke	I don't have a real opinion of Scala
17:45	Chousuke	All the times I've tried to learn more about it I've been scared away by cryptic code.
17:45	headius	me too
17:45	Chousuke	something about the syntax just doesn't agree with me.
17:45	headius	alex's book (pragprog) is pretty good, though I've only seen early drafts
17:45	headius	he teaches scala from a rubyist's perspective
17:45	mebaran151	it seems to be weird to try to combine functional techniques with OOP
17:45	mebaran151	OOP is all about state
17:46	JAS415	its is pretty good in CL actually
17:46	headius	yeah, it's a weird combination
17:46	mebaran151	I bought the scala book: it's a confusing hydra of a language
17:46	headius	at least it feels weird in scala
17:46	mebaran151	well you have to do it differently: you can't use Java style oop
17:46	headius	I still would rather write something like Duby for my static-typed code
17:46	piggybox	well, Scala isn't the first one to do that. OCAML comes into my mind
17:46	mebaran151	you probably want something akin to the multimethods or what not
17:46	JAS415	you use functional for certain things and oop for other things
17:46	headius	if I ever got Duby finished
17:46	Chousuke	CL OOP is actually method-oriented programming :P
17:47	mebaran151	I don't think OCaml is modula one
17:47	mebaran151	* Simula style oop
17:47	JAS415	i mean, i find the java oop x-treme methodology to be kind of perverse
17:47	Fossi	what's a binary or in clojure?
17:47	mebaran151	where you have fields that you set
17:47	Chousuke	Fossi: bit-or I think
17:47	JAS415	everything is an object? even abstract stuff? really?
17:47	Fossi	Chousuke: great. thanks.
17:48	Chousuke	JAS415: the thing with java is that it doesn't even adhere to the "Everything is an object" thing :P
17:49	Chousuke	Smalltalk does it right. Even code is objects :)
17:50	mebaran151	I remembering reading somewhere you can either represent objects as hashtables or closures conceptually
17:50	JAS415	yeah that's the idea behind scheme i think
17:50	mebaran151	the hashtable methdology with fields and such, just isn't such a good fit for functional languages, where as closures are a natural way to carry state in real functional languages
17:51	JAS415	they had factorial and actorial and it turned out to be the same thing :-)
17:51	JAS415	same code*
17:52	mebaran151	I don't know much about clos, but I've heard it's filled with Dragos
17:52	mebaran151	*Dragons
17:52	mebaran151	and Cruft
17:54	JAS415	dragons?
17:55	mebaran151	as in, it's a convoluted system
17:55	mebaran151	with lots of ways to do the wrong thing
17:55	JAS415	lisp in general is kind of like that
17:55	JAS415	enough rope to hang yourself
17:56	mebaran151	I found clojure a lot less crufty than most lisps: it enjoys a sensible design
18:00	jwhitlark	heh. I'm certainly enjoying clojure more than I did elisp. Although I think I'm getting better at the later from my exposure to the former.
18:02	JAS415	i dunno, i guess it depends on what the definition of cruft is
18:03	JAS415	there are things in CL that are very very nice, but i never really touch, simply because i don't think to use them
18:05	mebaran151	it's nice to break with the past though
18:05	mebaran151	try reading an mp3 file in common lisp or anything like that
18:06	mebaran151	I can think of 10 Java libraries I can choose from with sane api's
18:06	JAS415	yeah definitely
18:06	JAS415	try even installing CL without already knowing how to do it
18:06	JAS415	i think it took me the better part of a week the first time i did SBCL, and I didn't even have it setup right
18:09	Chousuke	I think one huge benefit over CL that Clojure has are first-class hashmaps and vectors (and sets).
18:10	Chousuke	poor sets, always mentioned in parenthesis
18:10	JAS415	you can write some pretty macros with that stuff :-)
18:10	Chousuke	yes. and you don't need four sets of functions, one for each data type.
18:11	mebaran151	also found macro writing in clojure more approachable
18:12	JAS415	the helper macros being built in... helps :-P
18:12	Chousuke	helper macros?
18:12	JAS415	off the top of my head the `var# macro
18:12	Chousuke	ahh, autogensyms
18:12	Chousuke	yes.
18:12	JAS415	i think there are others but that is the big one
18:13	Chousuke	the namespace-qualifying property of syntax-quote is almost as big, if not bigger :)
18:13	JAS415	yeah that's true, the trick there is figuring out how to circumvent it
18:14	Chousuke	which is relatively easy.
18:14	JAS415	yeah :-)
18:14	jwhitlark	I love sets. I had an interview question, where they changed the requirements to keep a unique list of items instead of all items, took me one second to change my code. Got the job.
18:16	Chousuke	heh
18:24	mebaran151	sets are an important data structure
18:24	mebaran151	very useful for the current project I'm working on which essentially does a little relational calculus
18:24	mebaran151	it's also nice that they are lazy (I think)
18:25	technomancy	sets can't be lazy.
18:25	technomancy	since you'd have to realize the whole thing to determine membership.
18:25	mebaran151	that does make sense
18:25	mebaran151	but luckily I can map over them lazily
18:26	technomancy	if you're producing a list, yes.
18:26	mebaran151	which is where it matters (I don't hit the db, until I need the return value)
18:26	mebaran151	working with laziness has turned out to be a lot of fun
18:31	Chousuke	Laziness can sometimes surprise you though.
18:31	Chousuke	You may not get what you think you should get :)
19:05	cemerick	rhickey: the transients document is very good
19:15	lizp	hi! lets say i want to write the following macro: (defmacro aif [x y] `(let [it ~x] (if it ~y))) and have y be an expression that uses 'it'. my problem is that upon expansion ` makes 'it' become 'user/it' and 'it' doesnt exist..
19:16	cark	use this form : ~'it
19:18	lizp	no, it is still user/it
19:19	lizp	for example: (aif (+ 2 3) (print it))
19:19	cark	mhh there is something like it though ...let me check
19:19	lizp	ok
19:19	lizp	ok
19:19	lizp	sorry
19:20	tomoj	(let [it# ~x] (if it# ~y)) ?
19:21	lizp	thank you cark, it works
19:22	lizp	this works: (defmacro aif [x y] `(let [~'it ~x] (if ~'it ~y)))
19:22	cark	oh great i was wondering how it was working here and not to your place !
19:22	tomoj	isn't that a really bad thing to do, though?
19:22	cark	no it isn't
19:22	cark	but i beleive it was made hard to do so that you don't do it by mistake
19:22	lizp	so ~' is basically unquote then quote?
19:23	lizp	otherwayaround
19:23	cark	not the same kind of quotes
19:23	tomoj	indeed, but... why does lizp want to do it?
19:23	cark	the aif macro is pretty standard lisp stuff
19:23	avital	lizp yes why do you want to do it?
19:23	tomoj	it was made hard for a reason :)
19:23	cark	"a" stands for ...take a seat .. anamorphic
19:23	avital	anaphoric
19:24	cark	oh
19:24	lizp	why do i want to do the macro or the ~' thing?
19:24	tomoj	maybe I don't understand what the macro is supposed to do
19:24	avital	lizp the whole macro
19:24	cark	avital:indeed =/
19:25	cark	you could (if (retreive-customer customer-id) (print it))
19:25	cark	you could (aif (retreive-customer customer-id) (print it))
19:25	cark	=)
19:26	lizp	yeah
19:26	lizp	:)
19:26	avital	its a quite common scenario - you want to act if something is not nil
19:26	avital	on that thing
19:26	avital	instead of writing a let each time
19:26	tomoj	ok, but suppose I have a variable "it" already
19:26	avital	this both saves space and makes the code more readable imho
19:26	tomoj	that macro clobbers it
19:26	cark	though the macro you wrote won't work that way
19:26	avital	tomoj: sure you have to take care
19:26	cark	and they can't be nested
19:27	avital	yes if you want to nest such things you have to think of a different scheme
19:27	cark	so we have in clojure : when-let if-let
19:27	tomoj	oh, gensyms don't work in this case, I see
19:28	cemerick	jeez, I pop into #haskell for a sec just for the hell of it, and this is the first thing I see: data G = G (G -> a -> b); f :: G -> a -> b; f (G g) a = g a; g (G f) h = f h; h = g (G f) (G f)
19:31	avital	,(source if-let)
19:31	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
19:31	avital	oh
19:31	cark	~def if-let
19:32	avital	cark thanks :)
19:36	Chousuke	cemerick: what is that supposed to mean?
19:36	cemerick	absolutely no idea
19:37	cemerick	I thought of popping in after hiredman got clojurebot to drop some scala :-)
19:37	tomoj	looks vaguely similar to the Y combinator to me
19:37	Chousuke	as far as I can tell it's some kind of recursively defined type and then a bunch of functions
19:37	cemerick	~scala
19:37	clojurebot	Scala often gets in the way when trying to write neat code -- seen in #scala
19:37	cemerick	~scala
19:37	clojurebot	{((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
19:37	cemerick	there we go :-)
19:37	hiredman	evaluates to 1, btw
19:38	tomoj	there apparently is a G combinator
19:38	tomoj	apparently having something to do with "anaphoric" something or other, interestingly
21:42	JAS415	swing feels inelegant, this is kind of frustrating
21:43	quidnunc	Anyone know how to specify a DNS server when using pppoe client?
21:47	quidnunc`	Sorry, wrong chan
21:50	slaney	are these sanctioned? ...like do proceeds help the dev effort? http://www.zazzle.com/clojure+tshirts
21:51	hiredman	I think Chouser created the store
21:51	slaney	ok
21:51	slaney	coolio
21:53	hiredman	2009:Feb:16:20:48:26 Chouser : blbrown: you should. I've currently got the keys to that account, but since the ideas are mostly not my own I've already said I'll give the proceeds (if any) over to Rich.
21:54	slaney	danke
21:57	Carkh	question : is there a way to detect we're compiling during AOT compilation ?
21:58	hiredman	,(doc compile-files)
21:58	clojurebot	"; Set to true when compiling files, false otherwise."
21:58	Carkh	thanks !
22:04	cemerick	Brief/helpful comparison of transients to haskell's SP monad here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/977mq
22:04	cemerick	or, actually: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/977mq/think_persistent_data_structures_and_functional/c0bo4md
22:13	hiredman	~max users
22:13	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
22:13	hiredman	~max people
22:13	clojurebot	max people is 149
22:44	cemerick	huh, that should be 164
22:48	durka42	does it not count often enough?
22:49	hiredman	nah
22:49	hiredman	I reset it to 5 a while back to see if it was working
22:50	hiredman	~max people is 164
22:50	clojurebot	Roger.
22:50	onats1	question guys
22:50	onats1	when is clojure useful?
22:50	hiredman	always
22:51	onats1	im just curious about it.. as i've read the label..
22:51	hiredman	clojurebot: rationale
22:51	clojurebot	rationale is http://clojure.org/rationale
22:51	onats1	hiredman, can you give me a scenario? like, and end-application that was done using clojure?
22:51	hiredman	clojurebot
22:52	hiredman	I have used clojure and htmlunit to do screenscraping with clojure
22:52	hiredman	clojure and SuperCSV to do CSV processing
22:53	hiredman	people are using clojure for hadoop jobs
22:53	hiredman	some people are even using it for writing android apps
22:58	onats1	this is a fairly new concept to me
22:58	onats1	is it similar to haskell?
22:59	hiredman	~blip.tv
22:59	clojurebot	blip.tv is http://clojure.blip.tv/
22:59	hiredman	I would check out the videos
23:00	onats1	alright
23:07	arohner	onats_: I'm making a website using it
23:07	onats_	arohner, deployed on what?
23:07	arohner	compojure & apache on AWS
23:08	arohner	oh, and jetty
23:08	arohner	compojure is a clojure web framework
23:47	tomoj	to me compojure looks more like a tool for building web frameworks
23:48	tomoj	I guess I'm just used to heavily opinionated frameworks
23:51	arohner	tomoj: you're not wrong, it is low level, but that's what we have right now. it hasn't been much of a hinderance though
23:52	Carkh	did they manage to make expiring sessions yet ?
23:52	tomoj	yeah, I think that's awesome
23:52	tomoj	I have been pondering writing my own framework based on compojure
23:52	tomoj	need to learn clojure better first I suppose
23:53	tomoj	actually I want to go learn seaside first since if I tried now it would just be a clone of rails
23:53	arohner	Carkh: I haven't heard of anything, though I haven't been following the group closely
23:53	Carkh	arohner: me neither ...
23:53	Carkh	though i 'm almost done with an app
23:54	Carkh	and that's one of those things i still need to look into =/
23:54	gko	What's the minimum JDK version to compile Clojure?
23:54	Carkh	1.5
23:54	gko	Argh...
23:55	gko	No 1.4 ?
23:55	Carkh	nope =(
23:55	gko	Too bad :(
23:55	hiredman	why dod you need 1.4?
23:55	hiredman	do
23:56	gko	Old machines
23:56	gko	DEC OSF1
23:56	hiredman	Oh
23:56	gko	Can find only 1.4.2
23:56	hiredman	ouch
23:57	gko	yeah
23:57	mebaran151	so I've got a bunch of sets and I'd like to lazily combine them
23:57	mebaran151	#{0} #{0 6} #{0 6} #{0 6 12} #{0 6 12 18}
23:58	mebaran151	essentially I'd like this to look like a lazy list that would go 0 6 12 18 etc
23:58	mebaran151	how can I do this?
23:58	hiredman	sets are not lazy
23:59	mebaran151	no I know
23:59	mebaran151	but I'd like to lazily combine them