#clojure – 2009-07-29

2009-07-29

04:02	AWizzArd	Hi cgrand
04:05	lbj	AWizzArd: You did work on JavaFX right?
04:06	cgrand	Hi AWizzArd!
04:40	angerman	I cannot just drop an item from a vector, can I ?
04:41	angerman	e.g. [1 2 3 4] -> [1 2 4]
04:42	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (subvec x 3))
04:42	clojurebot	[4]
04:42	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (subvec x 0 3) (subvec x 3))
04:42	clojurebot	[4]
04:42	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (conj (subvec x 0 3) (subvec x 3)))
04:42	clojurebot	[1 2 3 [4]]
04:42	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (conj (subvec x 0 3) @(subvec x 3)))
04:42	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.APersistentVector$SubVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref
04:44	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (reduce conj (subvec x 0 3) (subvec x 3)))
04:44	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
04:44	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (reduce conj (subvec x 0 2) (subvec x 3)))
04:44	clojurebot	[1 2 4]
04:44	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (reduce conj (subvec x 0 1) (subvec x 2)))
04:44	clojurebot	[1 3 4]
04:45	hiredman	uh
04:45	angerman	that doesn't seemto be the best solution :/
04:45	lbj	angerman: Cosider using remove?
04:45	lbj	+n
04:45	Raynes	,(remove #(= 3 %) [1 2 3 4 5])
04:45	clojurebot	(1 2 4 5)
04:46	hiredman	,((comp vec drop-nth) 2 [1 2 3 4])
04:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: drop-nth in this context
04:46	angerman	hmm ok. joined with nth thtat could vork
04:47	hiredman	huh
04:47	angerman	(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (remove #(= (nth x 3) %) x))
04:47	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (remove #(= (nth x 3) %) x))
04:47	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
04:48	Fossi	o_O
04:48	angerman	but it's not a vector after that anymore ...
04:48	Raynes	angerman: Call vec on it.
04:48	angerman	hmm yea.
04:49	lbj	or (into [] ...)
04:49	angerman	hmm into...
04:49	hiredman	,((comp vec (fn f [n m] (lazy-seq (if (zero? n) (rest m) (cons (first m) (f (dec n) (rest m))))) 2 [1 2 3 4])
04:49	clojurebot	EOF while reading
04:49	lbj	But this might be the best thing after all: (apply str (map char (remove #(= 555 %) [555 97 112 112 108 97 555 117 555 100 32 82 97 555 121 110 101 115])))
04:49	hiredman	bah
04:50	hiredman	,((comp vec (fn f [n m] (lazy-seq (if (zero? n) (rest m) (cons (first m) (f (dec n) (rest m)))))) 2 [1 2 3 4])
04:50	clojurebot	EOF while reading
04:50	Raynes	hiredman: Clojurebot is kicking your ass.
04:50	hiredman	,((comp vec (fn f [n m] (lazy-seq (if (zero? n) (rest m) (cons (first m) (f (dec n) (rest m))))))) 2 [1 2 3 4])
04:50	clojurebot	[1 2 4]
04:50	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4]] (into (subvec x 0 1) (subvec x 2)))
04:50	clojurebot	[1 3 4]
04:50	angerman	ahh :)
04:51	lbj	OT: Anyone here good at getting logo ideas?
04:52	angerman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4] drop-nth (fn [coll n] (into (subvec coll 0 (- n 1)) (subvec coll n))] (drop-nth x 2))
04:52	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
04:52	jdz	i personally thing that using clojurebot as a repl for experimentation is antisocial behaviour
04:53	hiredman	my drop-nth is lazy
04:53	jdz	think even
04:53	hiredman	well, keep us updated
04:55	angerman	hiredman: well i need it for the backing of a JTable
04:55	lbj	jdz: agreed
04:55	angerman	so lazynes is not an option as it's being consumed anyway
04:56	lbj	hiredman: Consider this: Opening access to your sandbox repl from some website, keeping an infinite log, letting people evaluate expressions and logging them next to their nick. That'd be an interesting read in a couple of months time
04:57	hiredman	lbj: who says I don't log everything sent to clojurebot?
04:57	Fossi	jdz: lbj zou can actually send him a private message if you must :)
04:58	jdz	i just brought up a point, it's up for discussion. you're kinda not adding to that discussion really.
04:59	hiredman	clojurebot: numbers?
04:59	clojurebot	No entiendo
04:59	hiredman	clojurebot: numbers is <reply>(pl reverse $ (↕reduce range $ 10 () λxy (↕conj inc $ y x)))
04:59	clojurebot	c'est bon!
04:59	angerman	wow. thats that with the up-down arrows and the lambda in there?
05:00	jdz	that's what you get when you cross clojure and haskell.
05:00	hiredman	pl is a macro that does some code transforming
05:19	angerman	,(replace {3 "x"} ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e"]) ;; what am I doing wrong?
05:19	clojurebot	["a" "b" "c" "d" "e"]
05:28	Chousuke	,(replace '{a x} '[a b c d e a]); angerman
05:28	clojurebot	[x b c d e x]
05:35	rottcodd	angerman: (assoc ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e"] 3 "x")
05:46	AWizzArd	lbj: I am interested to know how far JavaFX is usable from Clojure. But I am not working on/with it currently.
07:58	angerman	hmm I think I have a problem again.
07:59	angerman	I have a map {"A" Class1 "B" Class2 "C" Class3}
07:59	angerman	now I'd like to do something like (("A" my-map). arg) or (new ("A" my-map) arg)
07:59	angerman	but I think clojure does not like it that way
08:00	rhickey	~jcall
08:00	clojurebot	Huh?
08:01	angerman	rhickey: hm. do I have a match x with a b c like statement? then I could just write a dispatch function that returns the an instance of the class with the arg
08:03	rhickey	angerman: is the problem looking up the Class by string? just switch it to (my-map "A"), or is the question how to create a new instance given the class? Classes with no-arg ctors support newInstance
08:03	rhickey	,(.newInstance String)
08:03	clojurebot	""
08:04	rhickey	if the ctors take args you will have to use reflection, or make another plan where the map contains closures and not classes
08:04	angerman	rhickey: well I have this: {"GET": HttpGet, "POST": HttpPost, ...)
08:04	angerman	they each take an url as argument
08:05	angerman	so my idea is to have a function that takes the key and url as arguments and returns an instance
08:05	angerman	and I think (cond might be a soltion
08:06	Fossi	rarely the right one though ;)
08:06	rhickey	maps are faster than cond, what's wrong with using a map? just use (m k) instead of (k m) when your keys are not keywords
08:06	rhickey	or (get m k)
08:08	angerman	hmm. yep clojures are fine I think
08:50	Chouser	~jcall is http://paste.lisp.org/display/67182
08:50	clojurebot	Alles klar
08:50	Chouser	~jfn is http://paste.lisp.org/display/67182
08:50	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
08:51	Chouser	clojurebot: jcall?
08:51	clojurebot	jcall is http://paste.lisp.org/display/67182
08:55	Chouser	apparently wave robots run in a GAE environment, and since they already have a GAE Clojure REPL, I assume it's just a matter of time before there's a clojurebot for wave.
08:59	rhickey	Chouser: the question is how ambitious will it be? a repl bot is one thing, how about live .clj files?
08:59	rhickey	code is data is wave
09:02	Chouser	hm... one namespace per wave, I'd think
09:02	rhickey	newnew is proving to be a huge pain BTW
09:03	Chouser	writing it in java, hm? is that the source of the pain?
09:03	cemerick	it's quite an ambitious project
09:04	rhickey	compiling calls like (.foo this ...) without runtime reflection means doing so without compile-time reflection either, as the class does not yet exist, but all of the host access compilation code uses reflection - aargh
09:05	Chouser	that's not required for newnew, is it? an initial version could still use reflection.
09:05	rhickey	I've done some refactoring so the Java doesn't become a complete mess, but Java is no fun either
09:05	Fossi	clojure on GAE is just fine
09:05	Fossi	runtime compiling and all
09:06	rhickey	Chouser: yes, it could use reflection but would be a sore spot since the whole point is for this to be fast enough for the bottom layer of the system
09:07	rhickey	that's why I had to pause yesterday and work more on my design for primitive support in IFn, since the creation of these things will be locked inside fns, if the fn required boxing just to get a primitive through to the implemented class you'd get double allocations you are trying to avoid
09:07	rhickey	everything is interconnected
09:09	cemerick	I enjoy situations like that, only because of their payoff: eventually, one gets through the dip, and then vast swaths of tangled code just melts away
09:10	rhickey	so I think I've figured out (but not implemented) everything, one point left is that I am currently not supporting concrete superclasses whose ctors take args - is that too draconian? I've even changed RestFn so it doesn't and can play along
09:12	cemerick	rhickey: I don't think it's a matter of draconian or acceptable -- if this is a primary piece of interop, it will come up. shrug
09:13	rhickey	cemerick: newnew is not an interop feature
09:14	angerman	hmm ... how do I turn {"a" "b" "c" "d"} into {:a "b" :c "d"}? json-read is not restoring the keywords
09:15	rhickey	making it so it can only implement interfaces is certainly easiest
09:15	cemerick	rhickey: in that case, I'm not sure what to say to your (potentially rhetorical?) question :-)
09:15	rhickey	then there is no question, no superclass
09:15	angerman	i tried to run (map (fn [[k v]] (keyword k) v) {...})
09:15	rhickey	cemerick: I'm practicing my excuses :)
09:15	Chousuke	angerman: you need to return [(keyword k) v]
09:16	Chousuke	angerman: and then (into {}) it
09:16	cemerick	rhickey: you could always go Henry II on people. "There's no sense asking if the air's good when there's nothing else to breathe." :-)
09:16	rhickey	adding no-ctor concrete superclasses is a slippery slope, brings in protected access, calling "super" version
09:17	rhickey	adding ctors args and fields just blows things up incredibly, with multiple nested scopes
09:17	angerman	Chousuke: thanks. hmm seems expensive, but i don't have many elements anyway
09:17	rhickey	cemerick: hah
09:18	Chousuke	angerman: it's not that expensive.
09:18	cemerick	rhickey: thinking for a minute, I'm curious as to how you can get around concrete superclasses with ctor args -- tons of that in the std collections right now w/ meta, nevermind PSM
09:19	Chouser	withMeta after construction
09:19	rhickey	meta will change, it's been a pain this way anyway
09:20	rhickey	will just move into leaf classes
09:20	Chouser	base collection classes will just start empty, I'd guess?
09:20	rhickey	structs on newnew?
09:21	rhickey	Chouser: if you look at the ctors there is only metadata being passed to the abstract bases
09:21	Chouser	Not that I need to understand, but I still don't see why compile-time reflection would require runtime reflection.
09:21	cemerick	rhickey: what about structs?
09:21	rhickey	all the java util abstract classes take no args
09:22	rhickey	Chouser: compile-time reflection needs an existing class (which I don't have yet), but the compiled code would then need no reflection
09:23	rhickey	cemerick: it would be interesting to build structs on newnew
09:24	cemerick	rhickey: Oh, I hope so! That's my #1 use case (efficient structs w/ slots defined in interfaces).
09:24	cemerick	(hopefully with optional map usage as well, but we'll see, I suppose)
09:25	rhickey	cemerick: so once you are doing that, the question becomes what is faster, multiway conditional (generated per struct) or map lookup + array access?
09:26	rhickey	my bet is on the former for modest sized structs
09:26	rhickey	so then you are not reusing a generic lookup strategy but compiling unique code per struct
09:26	rhickey	and PSM goes away
09:27	cemerick	...but with a PHM off to the side when you've got additional, runtime-defined slots, yeah.
09:27	rhickey	right
09:27	cemerick	I think your bet is about right, especially as you could probably distill the conditional to a switch (and whatever that boils down to in bytecode)
09:27	rhickey	struct become a more involved macro
09:28	rhickey	cemerick: esp since small maps use multiway conditionals anyway (known faster for n <= 9 or so)
09:30	rhickey	switch a bit sticky since the dispatch values would be keywords
09:30	rhickey	I'll just leave it to hotspot, if you want the best perf you'll define an interface, that's the whole point
09:31	Chouser	and (:b foo) --> (.b foo)
09:31	cemerick	rhickey: I'd think it'd be worthwhile to emit something similar to switch (hash(yourkeyword)) { case 102934827: ... }
09:32	rhickey	cemerick: I welcome your patch :)
09:33	cemerick	Chouser: (:b foo) is always preferable, so that you can make an object of type Foo functionally into a Bar (suffering real map lookups, but at the very least not worrying about what that thing is going to be used for when you create it)
09:33	cemerick	rhickey: I'll benchmark the easy way first, but it's something I'd definitely hit ASM for if need be.
09:35	Fossi	i want to filter a seq with a pred, but also need the others. nicest way to do it?
09:36	Fossi	found separate
09:37	Fossi	going through the list twice feels like a waste though
09:38	rhickey	Fossi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/76458
09:38	rhickey	er, http://paste.lisp.org/display/76458,1/raw
09:41	Chouser	~unzip-with is http://paste.lisp.org/display/76458,1/raw
09:41	clojurebot	Alles klar
09:41	Chouser	so much easier than actually adding it to contrib. :-P
09:41	rhickey	that focuses on calling the pred only once per and being lazy, one pass would be a different thing
09:42	Fossi	well, the usecase is for pretty small lists anyway. still trying to get a feel though
09:42	Fossi	and i wondered that the implementation for "seperate" is so un... i don't know.. cool?
09:43	Fossi	but then, if i need something more optimal, i prolly want to write a specific version anyway
09:44	rhickey	what's separate?
09:45	Fossi	http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/source/browse/trunk/src/clojure/contrib/seq_utils.clj#40
09:53	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "which new form?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84374
09:57	Chouser	1 and 3 are actually compatible
09:57	cemerick	rhickey: #3: typing {:as this} constantly is going to get irritating (unless the 'this' symbol is going to be the default, in which case, +1 on #1)
09:57	Chouser	well, I suppose all of them are.
09:57	rhickey	cemerick: no default, same reason as yesterday
09:59	Chouser	yeah, I like #3 as well
09:59	rhickey	or a new name like make/instance/obj[ect]
09:59	rhickey	would allow this-name first
10:00	Chouser	Not sure 'this' belongs first. (new [SomethingListener] this {} (handleFoo [] ...)) has a pleasant order
10:01	rhickey	Chouser: I reconsidered the multiple overloads under one name, doesn't work due to ret type is hint on name and might differ
10:01	rhickey	Chouser: I agree, it's not a new this
10:02	rhickey	you can leave out both this and the map if you don't need them
10:02	Chousuke	#3 seems neat.
10:15	mebaran151	I'd like to build a lazy sequence n items at a time
10:15	mebaran151	is there a good tutorial on writing lazy functions that way
10:15	mebaran151	once the user tried to access the n+1 item, it would evaluate a given function
10:16	Fossi	tried seque?
10:16	rhickey	pmap
10:16	Chouser	concat
10:16	cemerick	mapcat
10:16	rhickey	all have logic like that
10:16	Chouser	er, lazy-cat
10:17	mebaran151	well I'm looking more for something that thunks
10:17	mebaran151	like lazy-cat, except that I could pass a function
10:17	mebaran151	let me check these things out
10:19	Chouser	,(take 4 (lazy-cat [1 2 3 4] ((fn [] (prn "called") [5 6 7]))))
10:19	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
10:19	Chouser	,(take 5 (lazy-cat [1 2 3 4] ((fn [] (prn "called") [5 6 7]))))
10:19	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
10:19	Chouser	hm, clojurebot swallowed my prn?
10:19	mebaran151	I'd like to make it an explicit function though
10:19	mebaran151	because I have to handle the cursor releasing etc
10:19	Chouser	(fn [] ...) is an explicit function, isn't it?
10:20	mebaran151	oh
10:20	mebaran151	tis
10:20	mebaran151	got lost in my irc formatting
10:21	mebaran151	is there any decent way to pass the last element as an argument to that anonymous function?
10:22	mebaran151	I could probably pull something off using binding, but a binding solution never seems elegant
10:22	Chouser	the last element of what?
10:22	mebaran151	the last element of the realized collection
10:23	mebaran151	(take (lazy-cat [1 3 4 5]
10:23	mebaran151	) ((fn [5 would go here] ....)))
10:24	cemerick	mebaran151: that's iterate territory
10:25	mebaran151	it is a little bit: what I'm trying to accomplish is a way to make a cursor based hash store look sort of like a lazy list
10:26	mebaran151	the thing is, I can't keep my cursors open all the time, so I thought I'd take the first n, then close the cursor, than restart it again if someone "used up" the first results
10:26	mebaran151	I need to pass back the last result so I know where to replace my cursor
10:26	Chouser	ah, interesting idea.
10:27	Chouser	you really need the last item of the previous series, and not some kind of offset or index?
10:27	mebaran151	I really do in a way
10:28	mebaran151	I think I can pull it off with a binding
10:28	Chouser	you shouldn't need binding
10:28	mebaran151	whereby the last function would just bind its final result so I know where to restart
10:28	Chouser	I don't think. They're easy to get wrong when you've got closures nearby.
10:28	cemerick	mebaran151: something like take-while + mapcat + iterate should get you there
10:29	Chouser	might actually be easier to do with lazy-seq and close over what you need to do the next part.
10:29	mebaran151	yeah, that's what I was originally thinking
10:29	Chouser	hm, though maybe you could do that with lazy-cat too...
10:29	rhickey	yes
10:30	mebaran151	it's actually coming out to be a pretty cool library
10:31	mebaran151	does full text indexing of arbitrarily nested maps on top of bdb
10:31	mebaran151	I just want to make the query interface more clojurey
10:32	mebaran151	so that users could do things like apply their own custom sorters mapping and the like without having to worry too hard about managing where the cursor is at any giving time
10:37	cemerick	mebaran151: sounds nifty. Roughly what I need to build this week. We're going with perst, which I'm very happy with so far.
10:39	mebaran151	yeah, it's been a two week project: though I've had to work on some other things in the mean ime
10:39	mebaran151	how does perst do for replication?
10:40	cemerick	ostensibly, there's various options, though I've not bothered to look at that much. What's the use case in an embedded environment?
10:40	mebaran151	also does perst do phrase matching? (ie maintain word order)
10:41	cemerick	it has its own full-text indexing which is so-so, but you can also use lucene on top of it. That puts the DB and lucene all in one file, and gives you everything lucene has to offer.
10:42	mebaran151	ha
10:42	mebaran151	are you going to share this lib or is it strictly commercial only
10:42	mebaran151	would be cool to see how they compare :)
10:43	cemerick	I don't think there's much of a lib to write, honestly. I'm just going to be persisting maps, and then using the lucene API to search over them.
10:43	cemerick	it's an object database, so there's very little mismatch in the models
10:44	mebaran151	ah
10:45	cemerick	If something interesting does come out of it, I'll certainly share. We don't care much about DB code.
10:46	cemerick	but honestly, the API is something like (.put object-key-here {:foo 4 :bar "blah" :etc 'sym}) :-)
10:50	mebaran151	does it nest?
10:50	mebaran151	that was wher most of the current solutions got me down
10:50	cemerick	nest?
10:51	mebaran151	handling nested hashes
10:51	mebaran151	{:a {:b [:c [1 2 "my test here" {:d 8}]}}
10:51	cemerick	yup, and arbitrary java objects
10:52	cemerick	gotta be careful with those -- all of the niggles of serialization come up there
10:52	mebaran151	well if you get nested hashes, arbitrary java objects should be pretty easy
10:52	cemerick	I do need to define a custom serializer for clojure objects that uses prn.
10:52	cemerick	but that should take all of about 20 min.
10:53	mebaran151	java regexps are locale aware right?
11:01	AWizzArd	,(seq? (java.util.ArrayList.))
11:01	clojurebot	false
11:01	AWizzArd	,(coll? (java.util.ArrayList.))
11:02	clojurebot	false
11:02	cemerick	,(doc coll?)
11:02	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IPersistentCollection"
11:03	stuartsierra	,(list? (java.util.ArrayList.))
11:03	clojurebot	false
11:04	AWizzArd	is there a truth function which returns true for standard JRE collections AND for the Clojure collections?
11:06	stuartsierra	(instance? java.util.Collection ...) I guess
11:06	AWizzArd	yes ok, that would work
11:06	AWizzArd	thx
11:06	stuartsierra	np
11:06	rhickey	j.u.Maps are not j.u.Collections, need to test for both
11:07	stuartsierra	grr
11:07	stuartsierra	I always forget that
11:08	stuartsierra	Did coll? formerly test for j.u.Collection?
11:08	rhickey	maybe
11:10	stuartsierra	A non-committal response. :)
11:10	rhickey	I don't recall
11:10	stuartsierra	ok
11:14	cratuki	Having some troublc compiling clojure.contrib. Following instructions at http://riddell.us/tutorial/clojure/clojure.html
11:14	cratuki	In the ant command I specify a valid jar, but I get java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/walk__init.class
11:15	replaca_	cratuki: you've got a version mosmatch
11:15	cratuki	It still seems to produce a clojure contrib jar though. Has anyone else seen this?
11:15	stuartsierra	yep
11:15	replaca_	*mismatch
11:15	cratuki	ahh
11:15	cratuki	Of course. My brain hasn't adjusted to git yet :)
11:15	replaca_	if you're using 1.0 clojure, you should get the 1.0 compat branch of contrib
11:15	stuartsierra	Either 1) get the latest Clojure from Git, or 2) get the clojure-1.0-compatible branch of contrib
11:16	cratuki	I used subversion to get trunkclojure - but maybe I should just get 1.0
11:16	cratuki	thanks all
11:17	stuartsierra	Nothing on SVN any more; use github
11:44	Chouser	eevar: seems like a good idea.
11:50	cemerick	is there no way to simply eliminate those projects on GC?
11:51	Chouser	cemerick: a pointer to the new host might be preferrable
11:52	cemerick	that's already been the case, tho, for clojure, anyway (and people still grab from the GC svn there)
11:52	rhickey	both home pages have links to github and assembla, nuking the code on gc seems extreme
11:52	eevar	should point to clojure.org/source (or whatever the url is) imo
11:52	eevar	rather than github, in case it's ever moved again ;)
11:54	angerman	how will clojure benefit from JDK 7?
11:54	Chouser	except people seem to pretty frequently get the old code anyway.
11:54	eevar	rhickey: the repos show up in searches, tho
11:54	Chouser	and old blog posts and tutorials, etc.
11:56	stuartsierra	There may be useful stuff on Google Code, e.g. in the wiki, but this makes it very clear that the current source is on github.
12:22	angerman	I need some help with macros (again :/)
12:23	angerman	I think this piece of code qualifies to be macrofied: "(.getMinSelectionIndex (.getSelectionModel (.field this))))"
12:23	angerman	so I though i'd write (defmacro selection-of [field] `(.getMinSelectionIndex (.getSelectionModel (.field this))))
12:26	Chousuke	hmm
12:26	Chousuke	you can use . directly if you want the field to vary.
12:26	stuartsierra	it would look like (. this ~field) in your back-quote
12:29	angerman	stuartsierra: but "this" sould be taken from outer scope right? a macro is (as far as i understand) a simple text-replacement during compiletime
12:30	Chousuke	it's not text-replacement.
12:30	Chousuke	clojure code is not text :)
12:31	replaca_	stuartsierra (and everyone): most of the doc from google code is now available on github
12:31	stuartsierra	oh, then "this" should be an argument to your macro
12:31	replaca_	(for contrib)
12:31	stuartsierra	replace_: ok
12:31	angerman	stuartsierra: can any way to implicitly have it bound?
12:32	Chousuke	angerman: if this is bound in the scope you call the macro in it should be fine.
12:32	replaca_	the exceptions are the wiki pages for datalog and pretty printing/cl-format and they'll be there rsn
12:32	stuartsierra	If you have "this" locally let-bound, you can requote it. (. ~'this ~field)
12:32	replaca_	one thing we need to add to github (if we haven't already) is a list of folks with commit privledges
12:32	angerman	Chousuke: I call it from withing a function clojure in a proxy
12:33	stuartsierra	should work
12:35	angerman	hmm. now it sais it can't find the symbol of the field
12:35	replaca_	btw, stuartsierra, thanks for cleaning up GC -> that's been necessary for a while now
12:35	angerman	e.g. I have (defmacro selection-of [field] `(.getMinSelectionIndex (.getSelectionModel (. ~'this ~field))))
12:35	Chousuke	angerman: anyway, thinking of macros as text replacement is wrong. Clojure code is data, and a macro call is part of the data structure that makes up a program. At macro expansion time, the compiler calls the macro function, replacing it with the data structure it returns.
12:35	angerman	and call it like (selection-of myfield)
12:36	angerman	Chousuke: ok. So it's intelligent text-replacement. :)
12:36	angerman	or data-structure replacement
12:36	Jomyoot	I think we are getting more mainstream
12:36	stuartsierra	maybe that should be (. ~'this '~field)
12:38	Chousuke	angerman: I guess. Code being data has some interesting consequences.
12:40	Chousuke	angerman: but the fact that clojure code is in text files is just a coincidence :P
12:40	angerman	Chousuke, stuartsierra thank you
12:41	Chousuke	angerman: I think some lisps have editors that don't work with text files at all; instead, they modify data structures directly.
12:41	clojurebot	They found no relationship between a programmer’s amount of experience and code quality or productivity.
12:45	stuartsierra	Chousuke: "Structured editors," I think, but they never caught on.
12:46	Chousuke	I suppose text is still the most convenient representation.
12:46	cemerick	Chousuke: that's intriguing. Seems like it'd be pretty straightforward in enclojure.
12:46	cemerick	angerman: everything dies eventually.
12:48	stuartsierra	Old languages never die, they just get ported.
12:49	cemerick	death is just the passing of flesh into memory.....and newer VMs? :-P
12:49	stuartsierra	Until we all reach that great Garbage Collector in the sky. :)
12:55	technomancy	is there a command-line arg to clojure.main that can automatically require a given namespace?
12:56	Chousuke	you can eval things with -e, right?
12:56	technomancy	right, but I want it to go to the repl after the require
12:56	Chousuke	I think -e works with the repl too
12:56	hiredman	-e something -r
12:56	technomancy	-r is repl?
12:56	Chousuke	or you can use an initfile with -i
12:57	technomancy	cool; thanks
12:57	hiredman	I think -r is repl, but --help will tell you for sure
12:58	technomancy	right on
12:59	technomancy	btw; was messing around over the weekend on JRuby/Clojure integration; turns out using STM from Ruby is absurdly easy: http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-gem/tree/master
13:00	hiredman	technomancy: you ever make it to seafunc?
13:00	technomancy	ruby blocks can be passed as fn args to alter refs and such; very nice
13:00	technomancy	hiredman: I've only gone once before, but I plan on going tonight.
13:00	hiredman	so it's cool?
13:00	technomancy	if you like geek talk. =)
13:01	technomancy	it's pretty low-key chatter, people come from quite a variety of backgrounds
13:02	cemerick	technomancy: so blocks implement callable?
13:03	technomancy	cemerick: yep. I think seeing that really helped me understand what a good idea interfaces are.
13:03	hiredman	I am intrigued by the move to chipotle
13:03	technomancy	cemerick: I was blown away by the fact that everything worked so seamlessly; was expecting it to be a lot more work.
13:04	cemerick	yeah, JRuby is pretty sane, and it sounds like it's going to get even better
13:04	mrsolo	oh?
13:04	stuartsierra	Just pushed new clojure-hadoop, now writes Hadoop jobs with no Java calls. http://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure-hadoop
13:04	technomancy	cemerick: especially sane compared to the standard 1.8 interpreter. =)
13:05	cemerick	yeah, I've no use at all for non-jvm stuff at this point.
13:05	mrsolo	well 1.8 is on its way out....
13:05	technomancy	cemerick: you don't need any scripts that have subsecond launch times? =)
13:06	hiredman	cemerick: operates on the timescale of EONS
13:06	mrsolo	technomancy: :-)
13:06	cemerick	I've never done "scripting".
13:06	cemerick	hiredman: I AM Time.
13:07	Chouser	nearly everything I do is "scripting"
13:07	cemerick	that's why I never bother with big-O concerns, either: what's quadratic time mean, when you have eternity? ;-)
13:08	Chouser	I guess that's not quite true. 90% of the "apps" I write (by count) are "scripts". But that's probably 40% of my coding time.
13:09	hiredman	nailgun!
13:09	mrsolo	has issues!
13:10	hiredman	I think jruby ships with nailgun these days
13:10	mrsolo	heh
13:10	cemerick	this would be a great stand-up routine :-)
13:10	technomancy	hiredman: true. it'd be nice to not have to worry about having a server running though.
13:10	Chouser	surely a server could be started up automatically on demand.
13:10	mrsolo	well i doubt that will ever get resolved without nailgun type service
13:11	hiredman	technomancy: @reboot /home/kpd/bin/boot-nailgun in your crontab
13:11	hiredman	launches nailgun at boot
13:12	technomancy	hiredman: right, but you still need one ng server per clojure program
13:12	hiredman	:/
13:12	technomancy	not saying it's not good, it's just not quite as nice as an instant-on JVM.
13:21	Anniepoo	I've got a situation that would be easy to deal with in an OO language, I'm wondering what a good design pattern is in an FP language
13:22	Anniepoo	I have a structmap that's a model in a GUI editor. it represents an object that will ultimately be uploaded to a virtual world
13:23	replaca_	Dumb ant Q: how do I write a task that will exec "markdown foo.markdown > foo.html" for each foo.html in *.html?
13:23	replaca_	this seems like it should be really easy, but I'm not seeing it
13:23	Anniepoo	the upload is modestly expensive/slow so it's only done when the user says
13:24	Anniepoo	I want to keep a needs-uploading bit and flip it when the object is changed
13:25	mrsolo	replica: (:require [clojure.contrib.shell-out :as shell])
13:25	mrsolo	then (shell/sh .... )
13:26	replaca_	mrsolo: no not in clojure, in ant (thx)
13:26	technomancy	just feed it through the clojure-to-and compiler. =)
13:26	technomancy	yay turing-complete XML!
13:27	replaca_	technomancy: every time I use ant I feel the motivation to write a clojure-based build system a la rake
13:27	replaca_	don't think I'd target ant though
13:28	technomancy	good. =)
13:28	Anniepoo	every time I use ant I realize that build systems are just horribly wrong
13:29	mrsolo	naw success is built on previous mistakes
13:29	replaca_	I think I may just end up writing a shell script to transform textile and markdown but that just seems so wrong
13:31	technomancy	worse than executable XML?
13:32	replaca_	well, you'd think that a declarative build system would allow you to specify transformation rules. :-(
13:32	replaca_	but at least being able to run a command on a bunch of files one at a time!
13:32	replaca_	sigh, but I don't see how to do it.
13:33	replaca_	the prob with a shell script is that it means *nix only (which is fine with me, but maybe not so good for all others)
13:34	replaca_	oh well, off to a four hour mgmt meeting :-(
13:36	Anniepoo	hack lancet into what you need
13:38	replaca_	Anniepoo: yeah, that's a big tangent!
13:39	lbj	Good evening gentlemen
13:40	Anniepoo	8cD
13:40	Anniepoo	so, replaca, what do I do about my 'setFoo does something else' problem?
13:40	clojurebot	People have a problem and think "Hey! I'll use a regular expression!". Now they have two problems....
13:41	Anniepoo	LOL
13:41	Anniepoo	I agree with clojurebot
13:41	technomancy	clojurebot: what is XML?
13:41	clojurebot	c'est bon!
13:41	technomancy	clojurebot: XML is like violence; if it doesn't solve your problems, you're not using enough of it.
13:41	clojurebot	Alles klar
13:41	Chouser	~what?
13:41	clojurebot	what is XML
13:41	technomancy	doh!
13:42	Chouser	:-)
13:42	technomancy	clojurebot: forget what
13:42	clojurebot	I forgot what
13:43	lbj	Bests one I heard about XML was something like "XML, reinventing s-exps since 1995"
13:46	lbj	(fine, pretend that wasnt funny)
13:46	Anniepoo	it's true
13:46	Anniepoo	in 96 or so I needed some more accessible way to manipulate the structure of non roman WorldScript fonts
13:47	Anniepoo	which are nasty huge nested structures
13:47	Anniepoo	I was actually working with SGML on another project at the time
13:48	cemerick	whoo, SGML
13:48	Anniepoo	but sanely decided we'd have a pair of C++ programs that converted to/from an s-expr
13:49	Anniepoo	There's probably STILL some poor mostly-writing-C++-occasionally-they-let-me-write-lisp programmer
13:49	Anniepoo	who thanks me every morning
13:52	lbj	Ah, trusty old ERC
13:52	Chouser	Hey, I'm a mostly-writing-C++-occasionally-they-let-me-write-lisp programmer
13:52	Chouser	Though I forgot to thank Anniepoo this morning
13:53	Anniepoo	LOL
13:53	Anniepoo	do you work for Apple's Text and International?
13:54	Chouser	do they employ anyone in Fort Wayne, IN?
13:54	clojurebot	They found no relationship between a programmer’s amount of experience and code quality or productivity.
13:55	Anniepoo	Don't think so
13:55	Chouser	well then I guess not.
13:55	Anniepoo	hey, clojurebot, I don't know who 'they' are, but
13:55	lbj	What was clojurebots latest quote based on ?
13:57	Chouser	hm. google finds nothing but clojurebot's brain
13:58	Anniepoo	anybody else find it a bit bizarre that we're arguing with a bot?
13:58	Chouser	http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000072.html
13:58	lbj	In my personal experience, I could actually find grounds to agree with Clojurebot, but I'd like some documentation behind it :)
14:01	Anniepoo	certainly I've met lots of programmers who have spent the last 20 years adding crap to one SAS program
14:04	Anniepoo	The productivity difference can depend on the domain
14:04	Anniepoo	I think often we undervalue the rather pedestrian virtue of knowing the local language/ide/etc. well
14:04	Anniepoo	but it's true that a mark of a good programmer over a bad one is that
14:05	Anniepoo	the good programmer, never having seen C# before and now confronted with writing something in it
14:05	Anniepoo	will get the job done in a reasonable amount of time
14:06	Anniepoo	and we spend more of our time learning new technologies than we usually recognize when we discuss how to program
14:08	hiredman	that they quote is triggered a lot
14:09	Anniepoo	so, now that more people are on, mind a repeat of my question from before?
14:10	Anniepoo	I've got a structmap that represents data I update to a virtual world only
14:10	Anniepoo	when they ask, so I have a dirty bit
14:10	Anniepoo	(they = user)
14:11	Anniepoo	in an OO language I'd just flip the bit in the setFoo method
14:11	technomancy	Anniepoo: sounds like a job for an atom
14:11	Anniepoo	no, this can be immutable
14:12	Anniepoo	I have a list of gidgets
14:12	Anniepoo	each gidget is a structmap with a bunch of keys
14:12	Anniepoo	the atom is the entire model
14:13	Anniepoo	(swap! my-model (fn [the-gidgets] (do-something the-gidgets)))
14:15	mebaran151	so you want to set the dirty bit clean?
14:15	Anniepoo	no, I want to make sure that when do-something changes
14:16	Anniepoo	the value associated with :blah it also sets :dirty true for that gidget
14:16	hiredman	uh
14:16	Anniepoo	I have a local GUI editor. I draw up what I want, then upload it to the VW
14:16	hiredman	well, then whenever you update :blah set :dirty to true
14:16	Anniepoo	great
14:17	Anniepoo	now all I need is to have every programmer working on the project
14:17	Anniepoo	religiously do that without fail
14:17	Anniepoo	is there no way to encapsulate this?
14:17	hiredman	Anniepoo: yes
14:17	hiredman	it's called a "function"
14:18	Anniepoo	sure, I can make an accessor function
14:18	hiredman	and you can make an updator function
14:18	Chousuke	hmm
14:19	Anniepoo	but the members are public, it's Fred-the-not-so-swift or me-at-3-am that will fail to do it
14:19	Anniepoo	and just fiddle with the key
14:19	hiredman	you can group related functions in a namespace
14:19	Chousuke	Anniepoo: you can have a validator function on refs
14:19	kotarak	You can make a watch, which changes :dirty if :blah was changed.
14:19	hiredman	Chousuke: he is not using refs on a fine grained level
14:20	Anniepoo	kotarak, tell me more
14:21	Anniepoo	I could, I suppose, keep the last uploaded version of the db and figure out what to upload
14:22	kotarak	Anniepoo: Chousuke's idea is probably better. But maybe you can do: (def x (atom my-map)) (add-watch x :dirtyfy-watch (fn [x _ old new] (when (not= (:blah old) (:blah new)) (swap! x assoc :dirty true))))
14:22	hiredman	Anniepoo: if you define a set of functions in a namespace that act as the interface for your datatype, I don't see what the problem is
14:23	Anniepoo	ah!
14:23	Anniepoo	I can make the actual defstruct private somehow?
14:24	Chousuke	Anniepoo: not really, but you can just tell people not to use the keys directly or things will break :)
14:24	kotarak	(defstruct #^{:private true} some-struct :a :b)
14:24	kotarak	Maybe there is a defstruct- in c.c.def.
14:25	Anniepoo	For some other reasons too uninteresting to go into here the 'keep the uploaded version' solution is a good one for me
14:25	kotarak	Docstrings are the contract. If they say: Don't use the keys! Well.. then don't use the keys.
14:25	Anniepoo	but Chousuke, isn't lack of data hiding a major problem as programs become large?
14:26	Chousuke	well, python does not do it.
14:26	Chousuke	it's only a problem if programmers try to bypass the API.
14:26	Anniepoo	ok
14:27	Anniepoo	so it means we're a little farther down on the drool-proof meter
14:27	Anniepoo	I can accept that
14:27	hiredman	Anniepoo: if you really really really want to complete hide the structure of your data you can use a closure
14:27	hiredman	but I think you should learn to live with encapsulation
14:28	Anniepoo	ok, cool
14:29	Chousuke	a watch might be able to do what you need, though.
14:30	kotarak	Chousuke: Do watches have some delay? That is: can one see the new value before all watches were called?
14:30	kotarak	If so, a validator is maybe the better idea.
14:30	Chousuke	hmm, right.
14:30	Anniepoo	currently I'm using an atom and swap! to access my model
14:31	Chousuke	every time someone updates the atom, you could go through it and assoc :dirty true to whatever changed. Of course, that will be O(n) so it's probably not that good if you have lots and lots of objects :/
14:31	kotarak	And what happens, if one changes the IRef in the watch? I did that above, but I'm not sure it's allowed.
14:31	Chousuke	then again, you will probably be able to use identical? to check the data structures so that should be quick :)
14:31	Anniepoo	Yah, Chousuke, I'm actually gonna be lazy about it. It's a reasonably small structure
14:32	Anniepoo	I'll keep the last version uploaded to the VW around
14:32	Anniepoo	and the upload function will optimize on the fly
14:32	Anniepoo	'don't need to upload that, already have one'
14:32	Anniepoo	because in this case there are several kinds of dirty
14:33	hiredman	Anniepoo: you could memoize the upload function :P
14:33	Anniepoo	no, that wouldn't work, I need to do it on a finer grain than that
14:33	Anniepoo	but I like the separation of concerns of being smart
14:34	Anniepoo	like, if the label on the gidget changes I have to upload a new texture
14:34	Anniepoo	which costs about 4 cents
14:34	Anniepoo	but if the object has just changed size I can just reshape it.
14:37	Anniepoo	hmm... actually, I do need to keep track. I forgot I'm visually distinguishing what needs uploading
14:37	Anniepoo	now that I think on it, I'm not so clear why I'm doing that
14:53	Anniepoo	anybody else using La Clojure?
14:54	Anniepoo	I'm seeing unreasonable amounts of computation if I try to start a repl and have an editor window tiwh a syntax error in it
14:55	ataggart	I tried but I couldn't grok IDEA's notion of projects/modules
14:55	ataggart	the eclipse plugin works well enough
14:56	Anniepoo	I've used IntelliJ for years, I'd have to pay a high price in lost learning to switch
14:56	ataggart	fair enough
14:57	ataggart	there's a forum for the plugin somewhere, might be worth asking Ilya about it
14:57	Anniepoo	yes, I posted a note
14:59	angerman	how would I construt an (all (true true true))?
14:59	Chouser	what's 'all'?
14:59	hiredman	every?
14:59	hiredman	,(doc every)
14:59	clojurebot	"/;nil; "
15:00	hiredman	,(doc every?)
15:00	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
15:00	hiredman	I really need to fix that
15:00	hiredman	,(every? true? '(true true true))
15:00	clojurebot	true
15:01	angerman	nice
15:01	angerman	I came up with
15:01	angerman	,(reduce #(and % %2) '(true true true))
15:01	clojurebot	true
15:01	angerman	though every is probably better
15:01	hiredman	eh?
15:01	ataggart	(apply and '(true true true))
15:01	hiredman	and is a macro
15:01	ataggart	bah
15:01	stuartsierra	Or if you don't want to accept any non-nil, non-false thing as true, (every? identity ...)
15:01	ataggart	havent had my coffee
15:03	angerman	no no. it should be only logical values :)
15:03	angerman	i'm basically running map over a collection and check if ... ohh that sounds like a stupid idea now.
15:04	Anniepoo	,(doc and)
15:04	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & next]); Evaluates exprs one at a time, from left to right. If a form returns logical false (nil or false), and returns that value and doesn't evaluate any of the other expressions, otherwise it returns the value of the last expr. (and) returns true."
15:04	Anniepoo	you can and any number of things
15:05	Anniepoo	,(apply and '(true true true))
15:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and
15:05	hiredman	12:04 hiredman : and is a macro
15:05	Anniepoo	8cD now I know
15:13	Anniepoo	is there some library thingum that will do this?
15:14	Anniepoo	(foo pred fun seq)
15:14	ataggart	which "this" are you referring to?
15:14	ataggart	ah
15:14	ataggart	what's going on with that?
15:14	Anniepoo	where foo returns a seq whose elements are the same as in seq
15:14	hiredman	uh
15:15	hiredman	that is the point of that then?
15:15	kotarak	(map identity seq)?
15:15	ataggart	lol
15:15	Anniepoo	if pred (element) is false, and (fun element) if pred is true
15:15	Anniepoo	I'm writing lots of handlers that do something to my model
15:16	ataggart	(map #(if (pred %) % (fun %)) seq)
15:16	hiredman	,(map #(if (number? %) (inc %) %) [1 :two 3 :four])
15:16	clojurebot	(2 :two 4 :four)
15:16	kotarak	(map #(or (and (pred %) (f %)) %) seq)
15:16	Chouser	(map #(if (p e) (f e) e) s)
15:16	kotarak	does that work?
15:16	Chouser	oops, I said e when I meant %
15:16	ataggart	my logic was backwards
15:17	ataggart	but we're all saying the same thing
15:17	hiredman	mine was perfect
15:17	ataggart	as always, hiredman
15:17	Anniepoo	yah, I'm doing what Chouser says, just tired or reading it over and over
15:19	Chouser	(defn map-if [p f s] (map #(if (p %) (f %) %) s))
15:19	Anniepoo	I guess I could make my own
15:19	Chouser	too late
15:19	Anniepoo	8cD
15:19	Chouser	:-)
15:19	hiredman	,(pl (↕map call · (⌽vector 1) $ :two $ 3 $ :four λx (if number? $ x inc $ x x)))
15:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Remove at top
15:20	hiredman	damn
15:20	hiredman	,(pl (↕map [1 :two 3 :four] λx (if number? $ x inc $ x x)))
15:20	clojurebot	(2 :two 4 :four)
15:20	kotarak	hiredman: are you trying to port Haskell to Clojure?
15:21	mebaran151	typed clojure?
15:21	hiredman	kotarak: the problem with that would be haskell's lazy eval
15:21	mebaran151	you could all it Curry....
15:21	mebaran151	*call it
15:33	cemerick	holy hell, annotations are insane
15:33	Anniepoo	??
15:33	Anniepoo	as in Java annotations?
15:34	cemerick	yeah
15:34	ataggart	a terribly misused piece of tech
15:34	Anniepoo	You know, coming from mostly writing Java over the last ten years
15:34	Anniepoo	I feel like somebody who'se left a cult
15:34	Anniepoo	and is thinking 'what was I DOING thinking like that?'
15:35	mebaran151	annotations are a bad bandaid for bad syntax
15:35	cemerick	they're mostly fine for "users" (e.g. throwing a @Whatever on a field is pretty simple, straightforward way to compose functionality), but it's incredibly complex on the back end and the abstraction leaks hard outside of the simple cases.
15:35	Anniepoo	annotations are mostly used for javadoc, which everybody seems to agree is lame, and
15:36	ataggart	and there's a tendency for people to abuse annotations beyond metadata, and start using it as configuration
15:36	angerman	can I have only one additional argument?
15:36	Anniepoo	and J2EE, which is a bandaid on a piece of horribly broken technology
15:37	cemerick	Anniepoo: that is probably overly broad. JMS is a pretty fine piece of kit.
15:38	baetis-fly	i swore I saw a nifty function that would show the source code to another function but now i can't find it. did i imagine that?
15:38	Anniepoo	=8cO
15:38	kotarak	baetis-fly: clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source
15:38	mebaran151	yep source
15:38	mebaran151	it's a fun function
15:39	ataggart	angerman: you can have multiple arguments (name="value") in an annotation
15:40	mebaran151	I often wish clojure had a more general source, like toSource in JS
15:40	baetis-fly	kotarak, mebaran151: many thanks. didn't think to look in contrib for some reason.
15:40	mebaran151	seems like if functions really are data, they should have a printable structure that looks less like comic book swearing and is more generally useful
15:41	hiredman	well
15:41	kotarak	It's a two-edged sword. It's easy to rely on the implementation...
15:41	hiredman	you would need to decompile them
15:41	Chouser	clojure functions used to be data, until they were compiled
15:42	mebaran151	I understand why they're compiled but this is lisp
15:42	Chouser	and even if you hang onto the pre-compiled forms, you lose formatting, comments, etc.
15:42	mebaran151	I was thinking more for something akin to serialization
15:43	mebaran151	I wouldn't expect data to keep its superficial representation
15:43	mebaran151	they have javascript bytecode interpreters that can uneval
15:43	clojurebot	http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/kwxm/JVM/codeByNo.html
15:43	hiredman	clojurebot: good catch
15:43	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:50	Anniepoo	hmm... is there a way to get a "serialized" form? As in a string representation of it?
15:50	Anniepoo	user=> (str (repeat 0 10))
15:50	Anniepoo	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@0"
15:51	lpetit	Hi
15:52	hiredman	Anniepoo: prn-str
15:52	Anniepoo	thanks
15:52	lpetit	Maybe you know this out of your head: do you know if there is an already existing function (in core or contrib), presumably called 'map-keys , which takes a fn, a map, and returns a new map with every value mapped to (fn old-key) (the caller having to ensure that fn is injective, of course)
15:55	hiredman	,(let [m {:a :b 2 :c 3}] (reduce #(update-in %1 [%2] inc) m (keys m)))
15:55	clojurebot	5
15:55	hiredman	bah
15:55	stuartsierra	hmm, (defn map-keys [f map] (reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m (f k) v)) {} map)
15:55	hiredman	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] (reduce #(update-in %1 [%2] inc) m (keys m)))
15:55	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 3, :c 4}
15:55	hiredman	there must be something in contrib
15:56	stuartsierra	oh, wait, just (zipmap (map f (keys m)) (vals m))
15:56	stuartsierra	assuming keys and vals return use the same order
15:57	Chousuke	or (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(f k) v]) the-map))
15:58	ataggart	woot, my first contribution toclojure-contrib is in github
15:58	mebaran151	I wish there were a better way of managing clojure contrib: it seems very hodge podgy
15:58	mebaran151	kind of the inspiration for a packaging system: so every one could mix and match in their own contrib
15:59	Chousuke	if you have suggestions, bring them up on the group.
15:59	ataggart	we have plenty of suggestions; better would be to write it :)
15:59	Chousuke	On IRC things tend to just get mentioned and then no-one does anything :)
16:00	mebaran151	heh
16:01	ataggart	if anyone is bored and wants to critique the contrib logging code, please feel free.
16:01	mebaran151	a co worker of mine is actually going to test his search stuff against a database clojure libs, both in contrib and out
16:01	mebaran151	he was the scheme guy, so he's been spoiled by wacky package management systems
16:02	baetis-fly	/quit
16:03	lpetit	Guys, I had a break for some minutes, and you implemented the functions, thanks but it was already done on my side :-) I was just trying to clean my code, and especially trying to not reinvent some clojure or clojure-contrib wheel :-)
16:04	hiredman	I think there should be more jars
16:05	hiredman	you should not wait until you have a whole app and roll at all up into one jar
16:05	hiredman	have a namespace and 10 functions? make a jar
16:05	lpetit	So map-keys (or whatever better name) is not already in contrib ?
16:05	rhickey	aargh - google is not helping me find my old message re: seqable?, anyone with better email/rss tools able to do so?
16:06	hiredman	seems like something for clojure.contrib.map-utils
16:08	mebaran151	hiredman, pretty much agreed
16:08	achim	rhickey: "Re: A nil puzzle" from 2009-01-25 - that one?
16:09	mebaran151	he's actually thinking of doing something, indexing packages at the funciton level and tracking imports in the ns declarations
16:09	mebaran151	*something cool
16:09	Anniepoo	Rich, I've been looking for a La Clojure user for a while. It's rumored you're an IntelliJ user
16:09	mebaran151	then you could pull only the namespaces that seem to reference things you'd like
16:11	Chouser	rhickey: dunno if this is the one you're thinking of: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/ea899cfd965744a8
16:12	lpetit	hiredman: you think it's of sufficient general utility to be a contribution (I can make that, little contribution, to get started with the new Assembla stuff I haven't used yet)
16:12	Chouser	rhickey: I have yet to find better than using google web search to find messages at mail-archive.com, and then trying to find that specific message back over in the google group ui.
16:12	Raynes	Anniepoo: He's hiding it from us!
16:12	Anniepoo	LOL
16:12	Raynes	Anniepoo: Looks like we'll have to break into his house and search his computer. >:)
16:12	Anniepoo	well, I feel bad - I ask noob questions and the only one who answers is Chris Houser
16:13	Anniepoo	and now I'm having an IDE problem and the only user of my IDE I can find is Rich Hickey
16:14	Raynes	I use IntelliJ too, I just don't have it on this computer. I'm not sure which I would use if it was on this computer right now however, now that I'm accustomed to emacs.
16:14	mebaran151	Anniepoo, I know it seems like a step down, but you might look at Netbeans
16:14	mebaran151	it has a pretty sweet plugin
16:14	Raynes	The IntelliJ plugin, the last time I checked, was a quite a bit far ahead of the NetBeans plugin.
16:14	mebaran151	really?
16:14	mebaran151	I actually found the netbeans plugin surprisingly competent
16:14	rhickey	Chouser, achim: it's older than those, arguing against seqable? with the example that strings were once not
16:15	Raynes	However, I'm not quite up to date with Enclojure because I can't get it to install on my PHP installation of NB 6.7
16:15	mebaran151	hmmm a php install....
16:15	kotarak	rhickey: that's mentioned in the message Chouser posted
16:15	mebaran151	I got running on a ruby install of netbeans
16:16	mebaran151	it does all the basic things you could ask for, except its code completion leaves a little to be desired
16:16	Anniepoo	I like the La Clojure plugin, but at times it goes berzerk
16:16	kotarak	quote: There was a time when Strings weren't
16:16	kotarak	"seqable", now they are.
16:16	mebaran151	then again, I rarely used code completion
16:16	Anniepoo	I get 100% CPU for a minute or so
16:17	Anniepoo	Sergey actually owes me a power supply, I burnt one out doing this
16:17	Anniepoo	LOL
16:17	Raynes	mebaran151: It seems like, if there is any possibility of a problem emerging, I will find that problem in Enclojure, and no one else will be able to reproduce it. :\|
16:17	mebaran151	have you tried a Java install of Netbeans
16:17	rhickey	kotarak: I guess so, it's just such a big discussion otherwise, I know I made that same point earlier in a smaller message
16:17	mebaran151	you can add the php stuff later as plugins
16:17	Raynes	No, too lazy.
16:18	mebaran151	try adding the java stuff
16:18	mebaran151	enclojure probably needs the java integration to do its job
16:18	Raynes	It pulls it down automatically, and I tried pulling it down myself, nothing works.
16:18	hiredman	speaking of php I got my php.lisp "compiler" to generate php function backed objects as closures
16:19	mebaran151	that's pretty neato
16:20	mebaran151	have you tried hosing your .netbeans dir?
16:20	mebaran151	I'm a unix person, so destroying all valuable data is always my first recourse :)
16:21	Raynes	mebaran151: The only way I can restart netbeans is by nuking the .netbeans dir.
16:21	Raynes	Otherwise NB wont even say hello.
16:22	kotarak	rhickey: http://markmail.org/message/56r3eflx4a6tasoe
16:22	kotarak	maybe?
16:22	mebaran151	hah
16:22	rhickey	kotarak: wins
16:22	rhickey	thanks
16:22	kotarak	np
16:24	rhickey	lead to this which is the one I remembered: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/fc3cd6e81c9afb8d
16:30	rhickey	heh, now I can't get the ggroup msg ID of http://markmail.org/message/56r3eflx4a6tasoe
16:30	rhickey	why is ggroup history so shallow?
16:32	stuartsierra	funny, google web search finds the markmail URL, but nothing on Groups
16:34	achim	rhickey: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/b2aa24dd1a86102f#
16:34	achim	google should really be better at searching
16:35	rhickey	achim: thanks, found how?
16:36	rhickey	I went through my profile, which had a link for that month, but got tired after showing me only 4 pages
16:37	achim	played with the offset in the url, manual binary search :)
16:37	rhickey	achim: yikes
16:37	hiredman	:/
16:37	cemerick	I call shenanigans ;-P
16:38	stuartsierra	I had no idea Google Groups had such crappy search.
16:38	Chouser	gmail is also surprisingly bad
16:38	stuartsierra	So the string in the URI is like a hexadecimal timestamp?
16:39	rhickey	stuartsierra: I think they are just limiting the window of time in the index for ggroups, I could find in my gmail once I used "seq-able?"
16:39	cemerick	I don't understand why the geek hipsters aren't beating a path to not-google at this point.
16:39	stuartsierra	But at least gmail doesn't "forget" old messages.
16:39	stuartsierra	cemerick: It's like Churchill said of democracy, it's the worst system except for all the others.
16:40	cemerick	shrug I've been using yahoo search primarily for about 2 months now with good results.
16:40	rhickey	it's kind of silly they would keep the index for each gmail user but not the 2200 people sharing the group
16:40	stuartsierra	yes
16:40	stuartsierra	But Groups has long been the least reliable of Google services.
16:53	dysinger	Is this the way things are supposed to go? I imagine this is because byte[] is an Object and object's default equals is =.
16:54	dysinger	(= (.getBytes "hello") (.getBytes "hello"))
16:54	dysinger	false
16:54	dysinger	(= (String. (.getBytes "hello")) (String. (.getBytes "hello")))
16:54	dysinger	true
16:54	dysinger	I am rusty at java :P
16:54	mebaran151	I thought Object equals just compared the pointers
16:55	mebaran151	whereas strings got special overloadinjg
16:55	kotarak	I think that's identical?
16:55	Anniepoo	no, to get proper string compaer in Java you have to use .equals
16:55	Anniepoo	== won't do it
16:55	Anniepoo	8cD A common source of bugs
16:56	Chouser	but Clojure = uses Java .equals
16:56	hiredman	,(= (seq (.getBytes "hello")) (seq (.getBytes "hello")))
16:56	clojurebot	true
16:56	mebaran151	I thought that Object.equals works on pointer equality
16:56	Anniepoo	yes
16:56	hiredman	,(.equals (.getBytes "hello") (.getBytes "hello"))
16:56	clojurebot	false
16:56	rhickey	= uses equals(), which is a value comparison for strings and identity for arrays
16:56	cemerick	,(java.util.Arrays/equals (.getBytes "foo") (.getBytes "foo"))
16:56	clojurebot	true
16:56	mebaran151	and you had to override equals to get semantic equals
16:59	lpetit	What does == add to = since it seems = can also be used with numbers ?
17:00	cemerick	== is object-identity
17:00	cemerick	,(identical? "foo" (str "fo" "o"))
17:00	clojurebot	false
17:00	cemerick	(= "foo" (str "fo" "o"))
17:00	lpetit	,(== 0 0.0)
17:00	cemerick	,(= "foo" (str "fo" "o"))
17:00	clojurebot	true
17:00	clojurebot	true
17:00	Chouser	Clojure == can inline primitive args
17:01	Chouser	Clojure = always boxes
17:01	lpetit	So == is optimized for numbers ? Not very clear on the documentation
17:01	lpetit	,(doc ==)
17:01	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums all have the same value, otherwise false"
17:02	cemerick	== returns false if any arg is a non-number, I thought
17:03	Anniepoo	== is optimized for pointer compare
17:03	Anniepoo	(sorry, thought u were talking java)
17:04	lpetit	cemerick: certainly, but as soon as one finds =, reads its doc, sees that it can handle numbers, I'm not sure one will then search again to find something more specific to numbers. Maybe making == and = docs self referencing could be an improvement
17:04	cemerick	yeah, perhaps
17:04	dysinger	Yeah the == doesn't say it does anything different than =
17:04	dysinger	on the website
17:05	dysinger	it uses value
17:05	lpetit	Is it worth an issue and a patch ? I can do that
17:05	rhickey	lpetit: sure
17:06	dysinger	cemerick: thanks for reminding me about Arrays/equals
17:06	dysinger	dang I am rusty at teh java
17:06	cemerick	you can forget all your java. The jvm stuff, on the other hand, is worth knowing as best you can.
17:07	cemerick	not that I'm a great example of that, but....
17:08	Chouser	I'm getting a NPE in a proxy method -- after the object has been called (the object itself is non-null) but outside the appropriate fn.
17:08	technomancy	= for array identity is news to me
17:08	technomancy	would not have guessed that
17:10	Anniepoo	ilyas, are you the creator of La Clojure?
17:11	lpetit	technomancy: are you talking about arrays or clojure vectors ?
17:11	lpetit	technomancy: I mean <java> arrays
17:12	technomancy	lpetit: right, I understand. it just means one more reason to avoid using Java arrays for anything but the closest layer of code that touches Java.
17:13	lpetit	t> ,(= (into-array String ["la" "clojure"]) (into-array String ["la" "clojure"]))
17:13	lpetit	,(= (into-array String ["la" "clojure"]) (into-array String ["la" "clojure"]))
17:13	clojurebot	false
17:13	lpetit	technomancy: I would say it also mean use precise terminology and stick with the word "vector" Rich uses all over the clojure doc :-)
17:14	lpetit	:-p
17:14	cemerick	heh, just as I open my mouth about how I've been enjoying yahoo search, they go and white-label bing. :-P
17:14	technomancy	lpetit: yeah, I'm not interchanging the two.
17:15	lpetit	technomancy: sorry, no offense intended
17:16	technomancy	of course. =)
17:19	angerman	how would I split and strip a string?
17:19	angerman	"foo, bar" -> "foo" "bar"
17:19	technomancy	angerman: re-split from contrib's str-utils maybe
17:20	angerman	technomancy: hmm... let's see
17:21	Chouser	,(map #(.trim %) (.split " foo , bar " ","))
17:21	clojurebot	("foo" "bar")
17:24	technomancy	I'm looking at character detection libraries, anyone have thoughts on choosing between jchardet, cpdetector and juniversalchardet?
17:25	technomancy	juniversalchardet is a port of Mozilla's algorithm, which I'd guess is pretty state-of-the-art
17:25	angerman	hmm... why are there str-utils and str-utils2?
17:26	technomancy	angerman: double the fun!
17:38	Anniepoo	ilyas, are you the creator of La Clojure?
17:39	Chouser	Caused by: java.lang.NullPointerException at clojure.proxy.my-pkg.MyClass.MyMethod(Unknown Source)
17:39	dysinger	angerman did you get your answer?
17:39	Chouser	I guess that's asm-generated code from proxy?
17:40	dysinger	angerman: here's my fugly one
17:40	dysinger	user> (let [tokenizer (java.util.StringTokenizer. "hello, there, partner" ",")]
17:40	dysinger	(for [tokens (range (.countTokens tokenizer))]
17:40	dysinger	(.trim (.nextToken tokenizer))))
17:40	dysinger
17:40	dysinger
17:40	dysinger	("hello" "there" "partner")
17:40	dysinger	user>
17:41	rhickey	Chouser: looks like proxy code
17:41	cemerick	Chouser: yeah, but it's probably not a bytecode-generation problem -- I've seen similar things when passing nil when the proxy needs a boxed number.
17:41	cemerick	(or when it needs to return a boxed number)
17:41	Chouser	hm...
17:59	bhurt_	Have a stupid question: what am I doing wrong:
17:59	bhurt_	$ ./repl.sh
17:59	bhurt_	Clojure 1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT
17:59	bhurt_	user=> (def x 1)
17:59	bhurt_	#'user/x
17:59	bhurt_	user=> (binding [x 4] (inc x))
17:59	clojurebot	x is w
17:59	bhurt_	2
17:59	bhurt_	user=>
18:01	Chousuke	bhurt_: weird. Works for me.
18:01	Anniepoo	On the 19th bay area java users sig will be having a clojure hack
18:01	Chouser	cemerick: you nailed it
18:02	cemerick	nice
18:02	Chouser	cemerick: the java method is supposed to return a bool, but my proxy fn was returning nil
18:02	cemerick	yeah, that's a java beating you around the head and ears. The autoboxing impl is sorta evil on the edges.
18:06	bhurt_	Hmm. Looks like a bug in the version of Clojure I have. Unfortunate. But easily fixable.
18:06	bhurt_	Grabbed a copy of 1.0 and it works as expected.
18:08	Chouser	bhurt_: that must be some odd version of clojure you've got there.
18:10	bhurt_	Not sure where I got it, but it has -alpha-snapshot in the release name.
18:11	rhickey	Chouser: you could compile in a call to RT.booleanCast if rtype is boolean instead of gen.unbox, in both gen-class and proxy
18:13	ataggart	if, during a dosync transaction, I read a value from a ref, will the same value akways be returned if the tx is retried, or will I get whatever is the latest value of the ref?
18:13	cemerick	not sure about that idea -- silently promoting nil to false seems like a recipe for producing harder-to-find-bugs...
18:13	rhickey	going to Java normally I can't do that, too many conflicts with overloading, no ambiguity on return
18:14	rhickey	cemerick: on return, really?
18:15	rhickey	ataggart: a retry is a new point in time, so things might have changed
18:15	ataggart	rhickey: thanks
18:19	ataggart	aaaaand it turns out the concern behind that question was moot, since ref-set doesn't have any effect if the tx is retried. I'm not yet used to not worrying about order-of-operations w.r.t. concurrent code.
18:19	lpetit	While filing the issue for the doc improvement of == and =, I thought : is it ok for == to return false if one of its arguments is not a number ? Shouldn't it be considered a bug from the programmer, and shouldn't we throw an IllegalArgumentException instead ?
18:20	lpetit	That is (== "hi" 1) would throw IllegalArgumentException, and also (more interesting), (== "hi" "hi") would throw the exception, instead of just returning false (which could then be a rampant bug)
18:20	ataggart	what woudl you say the answer is in java for ("A" == 5)
18:21	hiredman	rhickey: did you ever think about lexically scoping namespaces? like (ns same.ns (defn f [x] x)) ?
18:21	lpetit	hiredman: same as modules in scheme ?
18:21	ataggart	lpetit: that (== 5 foo) is only true if foo is a number and foo is 5 has no bearing on other values of foo.
18:22	lpetit	ataggart: the doc of == places an almost explicit pre-condition that arguments must be numbers. Not so for java ==
18:22	hiredman	lpetit: never really used scheme
18:22	ataggart	the precondition is only for when the result can be "true"
18:22	ataggart	else everything is false
18:22	lpetit	hiredman: me too, really, just wondering :-)
18:23	lpetit	,(doc ==)
18:23	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums all have the same value, otherwise false"
18:23	rhickey	lpetit: can't, since equiv is used in scenarios where equals is, and must similarly not fail
18:23	lpetit	ataggart: "if nums all have" => it's pretty clear to me, args are expected to be nums
18:23	ataggart	I should be able to do
18:23	ataggart	,(filter #(== 5) '("a" 5 "b" 5))
18:23	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--5788$fn
18:23	ataggart	,(filter #(== 5 %) '("a" 5 "b" 5))
18:23	clojurebot	(5 5)
18:24	ataggart	I shouldnt be forced to handle an exception there
18:24	rhickey	lpetit: I think it used to blind cast to Number and throw
18:24	lpetit	rhickey: what is "equiv", is it the literal name for == ?
18:25	rhickey	lpetit: follow the source
18:25	lpetit	rhickey: sorry for my english, literal is not the right word I think
18:27	lpetit	rhickey: even more weird, look :
18:27	lpetit	,(== "hi")
18:27	clojurebot	true
18:27	lpetit	,(== "hi" "hi")
18:27	clojurebot	false
18:27	lpetit	:$
18:28	lpetit	rhickey: padawan currently following the source
18:28	lpetit	:)
18:28	rhickey	the improved docs should make it clear not to do that :)
18:30	lpetit	rhickey: something like "unspecified behaviour if used with non numbers args" ?
18:30	rhickey	i.e. == is a numbers op only for when working with known numbers, in all other cases use =
18:31	rhickey	i.e. in ataggart's case above using == is not a good idea
18:32	rhickey	lpetit: most of Clojure has unspecified behavior if used incorrectly, I really don't like specifying 'unspecified'
18:32	lpetit	rhickey: ok.
18:34	lpetit	rhickey: a last word please: could == benefit from the new precondition machinery, though ? (I'm not volunteering to make a global pass on clojure.core, still just focusing on == :-) )
18:35	replaca_	lpetit: have you digested the stuff I wrote about how pprint works? Did that help?
18:37	rhickey	lpetit: == returns true if x and y are 2 equivalent numbers, false otherwise
18:38	lpetit	rhickey: ok. Thanks for all.
18:39	lpetit	replaca_: I'm so sorry, but I had vacations, and then Howard unveiled a bad performance bug that stuck me. Still on it, since the way to solve it could have deep implications in the current implementation of clojuredev.
18:41	lpetit	replaca_: but it gave me time to think about it "offline", and I don't think I'm ready to follow this path, finally. At least not in a first implementation.
18:41	gulagong__	hi
18:41	lpetit	We finally have 2 remaining challengers for the new name of clojuredev --> coming soon :-)
18:42	mebaran151	how would one functionally transform a Number into a byte array?
18:43	mebaran151	I'm thinking of something like 60 bytes per number with 4 bytes or so to describe the mantissa
18:44	gulagong__	i just wrote a macro which takes a binding-list and while doing so i discovered that there is some kind of restriction for binding-lists....?
18:44	hiredman	binding-list?
18:44	gulagong__	mom
18:45	gulagong__	i post the code...
18:45	lpetit	rhickey : docs for >=, <=, also state "... non nil" , should I replace it with "true" while I'm at it ?
18:45	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
18:45	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:46	lisppaste8	gulagong__ pasted "matrix multiplication" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84411
18:47	gulagong__	ok :)
18:47	replaca_	lpetit: ok, cool
18:47	gulagong__	the problem is, that this is not possible:
18:48	gulagong__	(mat-mult '(0 0) matrix #(somefn))
18:48	hiredman	well
18:48	gulagong__	it will only accept vecs as first argument
18:48	hiredman	the problem there is you are calling the wrong macro
18:48	lpetit	replaca_: well, not so cool, I wish I had some more time to work on it, I would surely have followed the pprint path more before making my choice :-(
18:48	hiredman	the name of the macro you posted is mat-map
18:49	gulagong__	d'oh
18:49	gulagong__	i mean mat-map
18:49	gulagong__	mean.... english....
18:49	gulagong__	i wanted to write mat-map
18:49	hiredman	gulagong__: what is the exeption that you get?
18:51	gulagong__	Unsupported binding form: (k g)
18:51	hiredman	are you absolutly sure that exception comes frim this macro?
18:51	hiredman	are there any other macros you are using?
18:52	gulagong__	if i do (mat-map '(k g) matrix fn)
18:52	gulagong__	nope, just this macro
18:52	hiredman	I don't see where that exeception could come from in this macro
18:52	replaca_	lpetit: yeah, I understand. That's a hard problem, though. At some point, I may do some general framework work in that direction myself. But I don't have the time either now.
18:52	gulagong__	this works: (mat-map [k g] matrix fn) but this doesn't: (mat-map '(k g) matrix fn)
18:53	lpetit	,(<= 1 2 :a)
18:53	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
18:53	lpetit	,(<= 2 1 :a)
18:53	clojurebot	false
18:53	hiredman	gulagong__: can you paste the output of (macroexpand-1 '(mat-map '(k g) matrix fn))
18:54	gulagong__	a lot of gensyms ;)
18:54	gulagong__	(clojure.core/let [size-y__15045__auto__ (clojure.core/count matrix) size-x__15046__auto__ (clojure.core/count (clojure.core/first matrix)) top-i__15047__auto__ (clojure.core/- size-y__15045__auto__ 1)] (clojure.core/loop [quote (clojure.core/int 0) (k g) (clojure.core/int 0) mat__15048__auto__ matrix] (if (clojure.core/= (k g) size-x__15046__auto__) mat__15048__auto__ (clojure.core/let [zero-i?__15049__auto__ (clojure.core
18:54	gulagong__	/= quote top-i__15047__auto__)] (recur (clojure.core/int (if zero-i?__15049__auto__ 0 (clojure.core/inc quote))) (clojure.core/int (if zero-i?__15049__auto__ (clojure.core/inc (k g)) (k g))) (clojure.core/assoc-in mat__15048__auto__ [quote (k g)] (fn (clojure.core/get-in mat__15048__auto__ [quote (k g)]))))))))
18:54	hiredman	uh
18:54	hiredman	gulagong__: paste to the pastbin
18:54	hiredman	not the channel
18:55	gulagong__	to paste.lisp.org?
18:55	hiredman	gulagong__: if you go to your previous paste there is a button at the top of the page "Annote this paste"
18:56	gulagong__	hiredman: thanks, i paste some more code so you can see for yourself :)
18:56	hiredman	for feature reference, always paste to a pastebin
18:56	hiredman	future
18:57	lisppaste8	gulagong__ annotated #84411 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84411#1
18:57	hiredman	uh
18:57	gulagong__	hiredman: funk takes only one arg
18:57	hiredman	that is not what I asked for
18:58	hiredman	anyway, (k j) is litered through out your macro expansion
18:59	hiredman	I would check to make sure the code you pasted is really what is being run (did you edit the macro and not re-evaluate it)
18:59	gulagong__	yap
19:00	hiredman	I would start from scratch
19:00	hiredman	that is a complex macro
19:00	gulagong__	(mat-map '(i j) (create-matrix (double 0) 3 3) #(+ %1 i j))
19:00	gulagong__	doesn't work
19:00	hiredman	so start from scratch, testing as you go to make sure the output is correct
19:00	lpetit	git expert around here?
19:00	gulagong__	the macro works...
19:01	hiredman	gulagong__: if it works then what is your question?
19:01	gulagong__	but i don't see why i shouldn't use a list instead of a vector
19:02	gulagong__	(mat-map [i j] .....
19:02	gulagong__	works perfect
19:02	lpetit	I've added a file in the index. I would like to see the diff between the index content and the commit onto which I'm working. git diff doesn't work
19:02	hiredman	gulagong__: [i j] is valid in side a let
19:03	hiredman	as a name
19:03	hiredman	(i j) is not
19:03	hiredman	so inside your macro something is expand to something like (let [(i j) foo] )
19:03	hiredman	which is not valid
19:03	gulagong__	no
19:03	hiredman	Yes
19:03	gulagong__	look at the first two lines
19:03	hiredman	gulagong__: something like!
19:04	hiredman	something like!
19:04	hiredman	not exactly that
19:04	gulagong__	(let [i (first bindings)]
19:04	lpetit	Ok, found it : git diff --cached or git diff HEAD in my case
19:04	hiredman	gulagong__: look at the macro expansion for the macro
19:05	hiredman	you will see something similar in form to (loop [(x y) something]
19:05	hiredman	where x and y are some symbols
19:06	gulagong__	hiredman: ok, i will try
19:06	hiredman	clojurebot: destructuring
19:06	clojurebot	destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#let
19:06	hiredman	gulagong__: check that out
19:06	gulagong__	hiredman: but there are so many gensyms...
19:06	hiredman	gulagong__: so?
19:07	gulagong__	hiredman: i'm no computer ;)
19:07	hiredman	if you don't want to read macro expansions then don't write macros
19:07	gulagong__	hehe
19:07	hiredman	I am not saying you have to trace the execution of the thing
19:07	clojurebot	trace is (in contrib) http://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure-contrib/commit/43e4168fc8772225c7f749ffb363b0e2a8f7b84f
19:07	hiredman	just look at the binding forms
19:08	hiredman	let, loop, etc
19:08	Drakeson	how can a namespace export [some] symbols that it USEs or REQUIREs from other namespaces?
19:08	hiredman	like at the vectors
19:08	hiredman	~namespaces
19:08	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
19:08	gulagong__	but i never expand the binding except when i pull the two symbols
19:08	hiredman	gulagong__: the macro expansion says otherwise
19:08	hiredman	I can believe either you, or the actual code
19:09	gulagong__	;)
19:09	hiredman	clojurebot: that is not what I wanted
19:09	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
19:09	gulagong__	i'll read
19:09	hiredman	Drakeson: I am pretty sure you have to re-intern the functions into the new namespace
19:10	hiredman	http://clojure.org/namespaces
19:12	gulagong__	ok, now i'm confused
19:13	hiredman	gulagong__: I recomend you start from scratch and incrementally write the macro, and as you go check the expansion to make sure it is what you want
19:13	gulagong__	inside the macro (first '(i j)) results quote and (second '(i j)) results (i j)
19:14	lpetit	rhickey : ok, issue 163 created, and ready to test
19:14	gulagong__	thanks anyway
19:14	gulagong__	on this way (i j) creeps inside the binding form
19:17	gulagong__	but i still have no clue how ;I
19:17	gulagong__	;)
19:17	gulagong__	but i'm quiet now
19:20	durka42	gulagong__: '(i j) means (quote (i j))
19:20	durka42	,(macroexpand ''(i j))
19:20	clojurebot	(quote (i j))
19:23	G0SUB	(hello-world!)
19:25	cemerick	rhickey: sorry, yes, RT.booleanCast would be OK if rtype is boolean
19:28	lpetit	Drakeson: see immigrate in this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/180185dfcb88d7ea
19:28	Drakeson	lpetit: thanks. too late though. I wrote one. ...
19:33	gulagong__	durka42: thanks, that explains it.... although i should have known it
19:34	gulagong__	than i can't do it with a list
19:34	gulagong__	cause (list i j) evals i and j..
21:02	rhickey	it's ........ alive
21:03	rhickey	first object created with new new
21:06	durka42	I, for one, accept our new new overlords.
21:13	Raynes	Cheers!
21:13	Raynes	A bit late, but I just noticed the message. :>
22:27	prospero_	I'm finding references to gen-and-load-class, but it doesn't seem to exist anymore
22:28	prospero_	if I want to define a custom exception, what's the preferred way to do it?
22:35	Chouser	prospero_: you can gen-class (and AOT compile it), or use one of the contrib libs: except, error-kit, or ...
22:35	Chouser	bah, too slow.
22:56	eyeris	Is there a way to make test-is/run-tests be verbose?
22:56	Raynes	Ask it nicely. ;)
22:57	mebaran151	Chouser, couldn't you proxy on Throwable?
22:57	Chouser	mebaran151: yes, but that gets you exactly one new class.
22:57	mebaran151	ah
22:57	Chouser	no matter how many times you proxy it
22:57	mebaran151	I see
22:58	Chouser	and you don't get to name it. end up being a bit silly.
22:58	Chouser	I guess it depends on why you want a custom exception
22:58	mebaran151	ah I do see
22:59	mebaran151	I kind of wish that Java was more like Javascript and you could throw anything
23:00	Raynes	mebaran151: I wouldn't want Java to throw me. :\|
23:01	prospero_	Chouser: I think I may have been disconnected while you answered my question
23:02	mebaran151	Raynes, but then you could be Exceptional (har har)
23:02	Raynes	;)
23:02	Chouser	prospero_: I should probably first ask why you want a custom exception
23:02	prospero_	well, I've since decided that I don't
23:02	Chouser	great!
23:03	prospero_	but for the sake of satisfying my curiosity, I was walking a tree, and wanted to throw an exception that would bubble up
23:03	prospero_	or rather, bubble up any exceptions that were thrown
23:04	prospero_	the easiest way I could think to do that was to wrap any exceptions in a custom exception, and not touch that custom exception on the way up
23:04	prospero_	is there a better way than that?
23:05	Drakeson	liebke: ping
23:05	liebke	Drakeson: Hey
23:06	Drakeson	do you have a call to JFreeChart.createBufferedImage() in incanter?
23:06	Chouser	prospero_: could you just pass fn down (perhaps via a binding) and call it with your exception info?
23:06	liebke	no, I don't
23:06	Drakeson	(like, say, when you want to produce a graph in a webserver, and do not save it on disk)
23:07	Drakeson	(and feed it directly out to the client)
23:07	liebke	ah, good point
23:07	liebke	I'll put that on the todo list
23:07	Drakeson	cool. thanks :)
23:08	prospero_	Chouser: that would work, it just seems a little more contrived than what I was trying to do
23:08	prospero_	or rather, it would be more contrived if it weren't such a pain to generate a class
23:08	Drakeson	BTW, thanks again. Incanter is incredible.
23:09	liebke	Thanks :)
23:09	Chouser	using exceptions for flow control is discouraged
23:09	liebke	I've added createBufferedImage to the TODO list. Goodnight all
23:10	prospero_	Chouser: I just wanted the exception to contain information about where in the tree the exception occurred
23:12	Chouser	Won't any ol' exception do for that?
23:13	prospero_	well, not if you're trying to capture exceptions at every level in the tree to append more information to them
23:14	prospero_	I mean, that would work
23:14	prospero_	but it would have potentially a lot more stuff in there than you'd like
23:14	prospero_	maybe I'm missing something, though?
23:14	hiredman	that all sounds like a bad idea
23:14	prospero_	like I said, I've since decided against doing any of this
23:15	prospero_	this is all an academic discussion at this point
23:16	hiredman	if it was academic there would be footnotes
23:16	prospero_	ha
23:16	hiredman	and it would be in haskell
23:16	prospero_	anyways, it's not a big deal
23:16	prospero_	I'll drop it
23:16	hiredman	zing!
23:17	Chouser	well, you can certainly create a custom named exception using gen-class and then AOT compiling.
23:19	prospero_	yeah, I found the archived discussions of gen-class vs gen-and-load-class
23:20	prospero_	on a completely different note, has anyone seen this github recommendation competition?
23:20	prospero_	it seems interesting
23:22	Chouser	link?
23:23	prospero_	http://contest.github.com/
23:23	eyeris	When I use the <javac> target in my build.xml for my .java files, it always recompiles, even if the .java files haven't been touched since the last compile. Is there a way to prevent this?