#clojure – 2009-07-26

2009-07-26

00:09	hiredman	~scala
00:09	clojurebot	Unfortunately the standard idiom of consuming an infinite/unbounded resource as a stream can be problematic unless you're really careful -- seen in #scala
00:38	Anniepoo	I'm crashing the compiler.
00:38	Anniepoo	is that sufficiently unusual that I should file a bug somewhere?
00:43	hiredman	Anniepoo: are you sure you are feeding the compiler valid input?
02:22	hiredman	http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-c-stm-compiler-prototype-edition-20/ <-- in 2007 intel released a c/c++ compiler with support for some kind of stm, go figure
02:27	slashus2	They have a neat little flash demo.
02:35	slashus2	The tutorial is a little broken, but it is a neat illustration.
02:35	slashus2	It is "undefined"
03:18	Fossi1	if you have a gen-class that uses a gen-class, how do you import them/ how do you infer the right build order?
03:22	hiredman	sounds like trouble
03:22	hiredman	why are you gen-classing so much?
03:22	Fossi1	because i use the android api to create a view and other things
03:23	Fossi1	so i'm surrounded by interfaces i have to implement
03:23	hiredman	proxy
03:24	Fossi1	can try, but the question is still valid
03:24	hiredman	gen-class is really only if you need to provide a constant name for a class
03:25	hiredman	Fossi1: it is, sure, and I don't know the answer, but I do know it should very much be a corner case
03:25	hiredman	proxy is much prefered
03:25	hiredman	and now new-new is almost here
03:25	Fossi1	hmmm. so, for creating a view, i could proxy from the main class ('activity')
03:26	Fossi1	is there a nice way to have a proxy in it's own file?
03:26	hiredman	what do you mean?
03:26	Fossi1	hmm. that didn't make sense
03:26	Fossi1	:)
03:27	hiredman	you still need gen-class to generate a program entrance point
03:27	hiredman	but most implementation of interfaces shoudl be via proxy
03:31	Fossi1	i can't hold any state in the proxies though, right?
03:33	hiredman	the proxy "methods" are fns so you can close over anything you want
03:34	hiredman	the real gotcha with proxies is you cannot add methods that don't exist in the superclass or implemented interfaces
03:35	hiredman	~gen-class
03:35	clojurebot	No, hiredman, you want gen-interface + proxy
03:37	hiredman	~proxy
03:37	clojurebot	proxy is <Chouser> proxy teases with its ease of use, then suddenly betrays.
03:37	hiredman	:\|
03:37	Fossi1	hmmm
03:38	Fossi1	i don't know yet whether that will be a proble
03:38	hiredman	it really should not be, any methods used on an object should be part of its interface anyway
03:38	Fossi1	i guess i will defer the implementation to other namespaces anyway
03:39	Fossi1	yeah, and then again, it's not a big deal to add another interface
03:40	Fossi1	and think you just made my life a whole lot easier, thanks again :)
03:40	Fossi1	s/and/i
03:41	hiredman	no problem
03:43	hiredman	I am sort of aghast that you went right to gen-class's complications and passed over proxy, most show up here wonder why the methods they try to tack on via proxy don't work
03:49	Fossi1	well, with such a lot of things to implement, and the compile step inbetween, i thought i'd rather gen-class things instead of adding another layer of indirection
03:50	Fossi1	but then again, as seid, it made my whole life a lot more complex
03:50	Fossi1	and if i wanted performance i c/should've used Java in the first place
03:52	hiredman	I don't think gen-class results in less layers of indirection then proxy
03:52	hiredman	gen-class classes are just stubs that call out to the clojure functions
03:52	hiredman	which seems to be more or less what proxies do
03:53	hiredman	I have looked too much at the implementation of proxy
03:53	Fossi1	might be
03:54	Fossi1	overall, it prolly was a pretty stupid move :)
03:54	hiredman	new-new (which doesn't exactly exist yet) will apparently generate jvm byte code directly be more direct no stubs etc
03:57	Fossi1	figured from what i read here
03:58	Fossi1	when you change such stuff (from gen-class to proxy, ...) somehow slime goes nuts
03:59	Fossi1	anybody know a way to make it forget all bound/compiled things?
04:25	Fossi1	http://developer.android.com/reference/android/opengl/GLSurfaceView.html "Handling events" - how would one port that to clojure with proxies?
04:33	hiredman	so you have a function make-renderer which returns a proxy of GLSurfaceView or something and your main class calls the function and registers the proxy as the renderer
04:38	Fossi1	hiredman: was that an answer or a question?
04:39	hiredman	if you're not sure, it must not be an answer
04:53	Fossi1	lisppaste8: url
04:53	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
04:57	lisppaste8	Fossi pasted "android setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84212
04:58	Fossi1	almost works now
05:29	Fossi1	ok, now with the proxies, the constructors don't get called i guess
05:30	hiredman	eh
05:30	hiredman	,(doc proxy)
05:30	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not provid
05:32	Fossi1	actually, i guess it's something else
05:32	hiredman	Fossi1: I am pretty sure the superclass constructor should be called
05:32	Fossi1	there's lots of side effects going on in this code, so i guess that's it
05:35	Fossi1	the object i get from my state later is not the one i called setRenderer on
05:36	angerman	how do I unpack a list
05:36	angerman	e.g. ((+ 1 2) (+ 2 3)) -> 3 5
05:36	hiredman	angerman: apply
05:36	hiredman	but what do you mean by unpack
05:36	angerman	basically I want to use (doto X Y)
05:37	hiredman	that will give you an error because 3 is not a function
05:37	hiredman	,((+ 1 2) (+2 3))
05:37	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
05:37	angerman	where Y is of the form ((.method "x") (.methdo "y"))
05:37	angerman	i basically generate Y using map
05:38	hiredman	eh?
05:38	hiredman	still not making a lot of sense
05:38	angerman	ok
05:38	hiredman	what do you want to do?
05:38	angerman	(map (fn [[op key val]] `(.addFilter ~(name key) ~(op filters) ~val)) specs)
05:39	angerman	that's Y
05:39	angerman	and then I want to do (doto (Query. "X") Y)
05:39	hiredman	and why can't you?
05:40	angerman	because as far as I understand it. Y returns ((.addFilter ...) (.addFilter))
05:40	hiredman	no
05:40	hiredman	well, yes
05:40	angerman	and (doto expects (doto (Query. "X") (.addFilter ...) (.addFilter))
05:40	hiredman	ah
05:40	angerman	so I have a set of parentesis too many
05:40	hiredman	this is in a macro yes?
05:40	angerman	no
05:41	hiredman	weird
05:41	hiredman	ok
05:41	hiredman	well,
05:41	angerman	but I guess I could put that map into a macro
05:42	angerman	I've to admit I'm quite new to clojure and haven't done any lisp aside from some elisp ...
05:43	hiredman	you seem to be constructing a list, is that want you want to do?
05:43	Fossi1	,(apply doto (String. "X") '((.toString) (.toString))
05:43	clojurebot	EOF while reading
05:44	Fossi1	,(apply doto (String. "X") '((.toString) (.toString)))
05:44	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Malformed member expression, expecting (.member target ...)
05:44	hiredman	Fossi1: doto is a special form
05:44	hiredman	or a macro
05:44	Fossi1	yeah, that's why i wondered
05:44	hiredman	anyway, it is not applyable
05:44	hiredman	but his example code just contructs a list and does not execute anything
05:45	hiredman	which is just weird
05:46	angerman	how would it be done in a more lisp like way?
05:46	Fossi1	ah, damn you laziness and side-efects
05:46	hiredman	,(map (fn [[op key val]] `(.addFilter ~(name key) ~(op {:a 1 :b 2}) ~val)) [[:a :b :c] [:e :f :g]])
05:46	clojurebot	((.addFilter "b" 1 :c) (.addFilter "f" nil :g))
05:47	angerman	hiredman: exactly.
05:47	hiredman	,(-> (map (fn [[op key val]] `(.addFilter ~(name key) ~(op {:a 1 :b 2}) ~val)) [[:a :b :c] [:e :f :g]]) (conj '(doto (Query. "X")) (conj 'doto))
05:47	clojurebot	EOF while reading
05:47	hiredman	,(-> (map (fn [[op key val]] `(.addFilter ~(name key) ~(op {:a 1 :b 2}) ~val)) [[:a :b :c] [:e :f :g]]) (conj '(doto (Query. "X")) (conj 'doto)))
05:47	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$conj
05:48	hiredman	bah
05:48	hiredman	,(-> (map (fn [[op key val]] `(.addFilter ~(name key) ~(op {:a 1 :b 2}) ~val)) [[:a :b :c] [:e :f :g]]) (conj '(doto (Query. "X"))) (conj 'doto))
05:48	clojurebot	(doto (doto (Query. "X")) (.addFilter "b" 1 :c) (.addFilter "f" nil :g))
05:48	hiredman	,(-> (map (fn [[op key val]] `(.addFilter ~(name key) ~(op {:a 1 :b 2}) ~val)) [[:a :b :c] [:e :f :g]]) (conj '(Query. "X")) (conj 'doto))
05:48	clojurebot	(doto (Query. "X") (.addFilter "b" 1 :c) (.addFilter "f" nil :g))
05:48	hiredman	generating something like that outside of a macro is just weird
05:49	hiredman	generally a macro would generate a structure like that in place of a call to a macro
05:49	angerman	hiredman: I tried to wrap the generation of the list into a macro ... but I failed ...
05:49	hiredman	then it would get evaluated
05:49	hiredman	I dunno if you want a macro
05:49	hiredman	I have no idea what you are doing
05:49	angerman	well I have this (Query. "X") object
05:50	angerman	to which I want to apply the .addFilter methods.
05:50	hiredman	well
05:50	angerman	and I want to hand in something like (and (= :key1 "value1") (= :key2 "value2))
05:50	Fossi1	sounds like a job for a macro to me
05:50	hiredman	are you planning to then call eval on this?
05:51	angerman	I've looked at clojureql and came as far as breaking it into the ((= :key1 "value1) (= :key2 "value2"))
05:52	angerman	hiredman: not directly. I just intend to return the Query object
05:52	hiredman	angerman: but the filter methods will not be called
05:52	hiredman	the result will be that datastructure
05:52	hiredman	a literal list
05:53	hiredman	'(doto (Query. "X") …
05:53	angerman	hiredman: yes that's why I though generating the literal list (.addFilter ...) (.addFilter ...) would be fine if I put them into arguments to the (doto (Query. "X") <here>)
05:53	hiredman	no
05:53	hiredman	no
05:54	hiredman	no
05:54	Fossi1	i think he got your point ;D
05:55	hiredman	a macro might be what you want, but as confused as confused as you apear to be about runtime vs. compiletime I don't think writing macros is a good idea
05:56	hiredman	I kind of doubt a macro is what you want anyway, if you are trying to generate .addFilter calls based on information only around at runtime, then a macro won't work
05:58	hiredman	your best bet is just to loop over your set of arguments to .addFilter
05:58	kylesmith	I have a security/sandboxing question. I wrote a dsl for a 'database' application. I wrote the dsl in such a way to allow arbitrary user code. Is there a way to sandbox user code running on my server? The alternative is to transfer the data to the user and let them bork their own machine, but even compressed, it would be in the range of 100MB. Thoughts?
05:59	hiredman	kylesmith: well, that sounds horrible
05:59	hiredman	~sandbox
05:59	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
05:59	hiredman	have fun
05:59	angerman	hiredman: thanks and sorry. I'll try to loop over it
06:00	hiredman	nothing to applogize for
06:00	hiredman	actually, use for and dorun or doall
06:01	hiredman	(for [[op key val] specs] (.addFilter query-object (name key) (op filters) val))
06:02	hiredman	you will need to wrap it in dorun or doall because for is lazy
06:03	kylesmith	hiredman: that looks like more than I need. Technically, I don't need full, arbitrary code. I might be talking out of my ass, but would creating a simple whitelist of clojure functions and forms work?
06:04	Fossi1	well, if you whitelist them, why not put them into the dsl in the first place?
06:04	hiredman	kylesmith: clojure has a lot of nooks and cranies, it might be easier to just write a mini interpreter
06:05	kylesmith	Perhaps combined with an execution timeout.
06:05	hiredman	clojurebot does blacklisting of some forms, but it is possible to get around that as Chouser demostrates over and over
06:06	hiredman	,(loop [] (recur))
06:06	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
06:07	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/52a02ce8dae22034444fa42e6c2f8f4bb9b986b0/hiredman/sandbox.clj clojurebot's sandbox
06:07	hiredman	based on that earlier sandbox url
06:08	kylesmith	Fossi: I could do that, but mainly I just need to do simple things like (let [tmp (a common subexpression)] `[awesome dsl stuff ~(repeat 3 tmp) more awesome stuff])
06:08	hiredman	keep in mind it is possible to get clojure's reader to eval stuff, so make sure to read inside the sandbox
06:08	kylesmith	and the interpreter for my dsl is already getting complicated
06:10	hiredman	,#=(java.util.ArrayList. '(1 2 3 4))
06:10	clojurebot	#<ArrayList [quote, (1 2 3 4)]>
06:10	hiredman	haha
06:10	hiredman	cute
06:10	hiredman	,#=(java.util.ArrayList. (1 2 3 4))
06:10	clojurebot	#<ArrayList [1, 2, 3, 4]>
06:13	kylesmith	okay, so how would I use clojurebot's sandbox? I'm looking at eval-in-box [_string sb-ns], but what is sb-ns? sub-namespace? I assume _string is the user-string to eval
06:14	kylesmith	hiredman: what sort of devilry is Chouser able to get past this sandbox?
06:15	hiredman	kylesmith: not past the jvm sandbox
06:15	hiredman	just past the blacklist
06:16	kylesmith	ahhh, that should be fine then
06:16	hiredman	the jvm sandbox stops you from messing with the filesystem, etc
06:17	kylesmith	yes, exactly. that's all I need.
06:17	hiredman	sb-ns is either the symbol naming the namespace, or the namespace object where the code will be evaluated
06:17	hiredman	you will also need the example policy file in the root of the clojurebot git repo
06:18	kylesmith	anything wrong with just using the user namespace?
06:18	hiredman	which goes either in .java.policy or somehow you tell java where to find it
06:18	hiredman	kylesmith: nope
06:18	hiredman	,ns
06:18	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
06:19	kylesmith	okay then. I don't need to implement the sandbox right now, but I'll probably be back here asking questions when I do. Thanks.
06:27	kylesmith	another question: Do standard code obfuscation tools work with clojure?
06:31	rdsr	Hi all how is the path parameter in the load function need to be specified if I were to all all files under a certain dir?
06:32	rdsr	what I am doing is this (ns a.b.c) (load "./d/")
06:32	rdsr	dir d contains some clojure files which i want to load
06:32	rdsr	d is uder the dir b
06:33	rdsr	s/uder/under/
06:39	hiredman	,(doc load)
06:39	clojurebot	"([& paths]); Loads Clojure code from resources in classpath. A path is interpreted as classpath-relative if it begins with a slash or relative to the root directory for the current namespace otherwise."
06:40	hserus	how do i assign a function to a map and then evaluate it later?
06:40	hiredman	this is no assignment
06:40	hiredman	you want to put a function in a map?
06:41	hserus	hiredman: yes
06:41	hiredman	you do it the sameway you add any other value to a map
06:41	rdsr	thks but I the problem is that while (load "./d/some-file") works
06:41	hiredman	,(assoc {} :a (fn []))
06:41	clojurebot	{:a #<sandbox$eval__4154$fn__4156 sandbox$eval__4154$fn__4156@1d53bc5>}
06:41	rdsr	I can't seem to all all the files under dir d
06:41	hserus	how would i evaluate it later?
06:41	hiredman	hserus: how do you call a function?
06:42	hserus	,((assoc {} :a (fn [])))
06:42	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentArrayMap
06:42	hserus	?
06:42	hserus	i get the same error
06:42	hiredman	because you are trying to call the map as a function
06:42	Fossi1	,((:a (assoc {} :a (fn []))))
06:42	clojurebot	nil
06:42	hiredman	you don't want to call the map as a function
06:42	hiredman	you want to call the function you put into the map as a function
06:42	hiredman	so you need to take it out first
06:43	hiredman	rdsr: load does not take wild cards, so you will need to roll your own function
06:44	rdsr	oh ok thks
06:44	Fossi1	rdsr: check find-namespaces or such in contrib
06:44	rdsr	thks i 'll check that
06:44	Fossi1	otherwise a filter and a file-seq does the trick pretty ok as well
07:05	hiredman	,(let [cons (pl λxy λf (f x y)) cdr (pl λc (c λxy x))] (cdr (cons 1 2)))
07:05	clojurebot	1
07:08	Fossi1	o_O
07:19	Fossi1	mapcat is strange
07:20	Chousuke	how so?
07:20	Fossi1	i understand the concept, but i find it twists my mind more than i can get it to do anything sensefull
07:20	Fossi1	same with reduce really
07:22	Fossi1	it's strange. i have this java class that sets a private value if and throws an exception the second time, but in a do, it doesn't blow
07:26	Chousuke	Fossi1: mapcat is just (apply concat (map f coll coll2 coll3 ...))
07:27	Chousuke	Fossi1: so the mapping operation returns a bunch of collections and concat concatenates them.
07:27	Fossi1	i know what it is and how it works
07:28	Fossi1	that still doesn't help with using it
07:28	Chousuke	Well, I haven't had much use for it either.
07:28	Chousuke	I suppose it's useful if you want to map a function that possibly needs to return multiple elements to replace the original
07:29	Fossi1	it's already cool for reordering things
07:29	Fossi1	,(mapcat list [1 2] [3 4] [5 6])
07:29	clojurebot	(1 3 5 2 4 6)
07:29	Fossi1	or whatever
07:31	Chousuke	reduce is a bit trickier I guess.
07:31	Chousuke	but it's useful if you have to accumulate something.
07:34	Fossi1	yeah, that is the easy usecase
07:34	Fossi1	i just started to use it for other things as well
07:34	Fossi1	you can like, concat strings or such
07:35	hiredman	,(pl (↕reduce range $ 10 λxy (+ x y)))
07:35	clojurebot	45
07:35	Fossi1	hiredman: what the hell is that stuff? ;D
07:35	hiredman	Fossi1: (apply str …)
07:35	lbj	hiredman: What is this multitalented pl macro you did ?
07:35	hiredman	for string concat
07:36	lbj	~pl?
07:36	clojurebot	the repl is holding onto the head of sequences when printing them.
07:36	Fossi1	hiredman: well, given your 'concat' is a little more complex
07:36	Chousuke	reduce can actually be used to implement map :P
07:36	hiredman	erm
07:36	Chousuke	which is fun.
07:36	hiredman	Chousuke: are you sure? I think it is the other way around
07:37	hiredman	~transform
07:37	clojurebot	transform is http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/8a84e6ddbad9d71f714ba16c3e1239633228a7eb/functional.clj
07:37	Chousuke	,((fn [f coll] (reduce (fn [acc x] (conj acc (f x))) [] coll)) [1 2 3 4])
07:37	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--4900$fn
07:37	Chousuke	hmm
07:37	hiredman	old version of pl is there
07:38	Chousuke	,((fn [f coll] (reduce (fn [acc x] (conj acc (f x))) [] coll)) inc [1 2 3 4])
07:38	clojurebot	[2 3 4 5]
07:40	hiredman	,(pl (↕reduce range $ 10 '() λxy (conj x (inc y))))
07:40	clojurebot	(10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1)
07:40	Fossi1	"ugh, read the source. this started as a very specific function and turned into a very generic one." <3
07:41	hiredman	it's the truth
07:41	Chousuke	hiredman: I can't read that pl stuff at all :P
07:42	hiredman	it is mostly just for fun and playing with zippers
07:43	hiredman	using macros + zippers for code transformation is neat
07:44	hiredman	,(pl (↕reduce range $ 10 '() λxy (↕conj inc $ y x)))
07:44	clojurebot	(10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1)
07:53	lbj	hiredman: What is that first character called, and how do you make it? (?reduce...
07:55	hiredman	dunno what it is called
07:56	lbj	Thank you for answering the first of two questions
07:56	hiredman	I make it by either pasting it from some place I have it already, or using a abbr I have defined in my .vimrc
08:05	Fossi1	i'm lost. if i (let [c JavaThing] (do (.changeSomething c) (.useC c))), c should be changed, right? or do i need to ref it or something?
08:06	hiredman	for starts you don't need a do there
08:06	hiredman	implicit do in a let
08:07	Fossi1	hmmmm. i still like the do as kind of a clear sign that i'm about to use sideeffects
08:11	Fossi1	but still, the Thing NPEs on me, which could only really happen if it's not the instance i called the first method on
08:14	hiredman	sprinkle some prns around
08:32	Fossi1	hmmm. since the introspection on android is a little handicapped, it's kinda hard to tell, since this class has no getter either
08:46	Fossi1	ouch
08:46	Fossi1	in my proxy, i defined the method i'm supposedly calling all the time
08:46	Fossi1	thus shadowing it
08:52	Fossi1	so, there's the betrayal
08:53	Fossi1	i can't call super, right?
08:53	Fossi1	or can i just not call super in protected methods?
08:53	Fossi1	the docs are a bit ambiguous
09:13	Fossi1	~gen-class
09:13	clojurebot	No, Fossi1, you want gen-interface + proxy
09:13	Fossi1	~gen-interface
09:13	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
09:13	Fossi1	~gen-interface
09:13	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
09:24	Fossi1	any hints on correct gen-interface usage?
09:48	Fossi1	phew
09:53	Fossi1	so now i'm back to the same problem i had with gen-class
09:54	Fossi1	how do you use these generates interfaces and how do you infer the right build order?
09:55	Fossi1	new twist to it: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: java/lang/"
10:00	Fossi1	i mean writing interfaces in java is not that bad, but that can't be it, can it?
10:07	Chousuke	I'm not even sure if gen-interface works anymore :P
10:07	Chousuke	it sounds like something pre-AOT
10:10	Fossi1	thing is: i have this proxied object that gets run in another thread and i can send it a message, but without another interface, i don't have a method of mine to call
10:14	StartsWithK	lisppaste8: help
10:14	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
10:14	rhickey	Chousuke: gen-interface should work fine
10:15	lisppaste8	StartsWithK pasted "gen-interface and proxy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84226
10:17	StartsWithK	is this what you are trying to do?
10:18	Fossi1	yeah, something like that
10:19	Fossi1	just that i get the above exception on compile and emacs naturally can't find the class at all
10:19	StartsWithK	aot step is ok?
10:19	StartsWithK	you can see in your 'classes' directory com/exmaple/IFoo.class
10:20	Fossi1	yes
10:21	Fossi1	let me remove them and try again to be sure
10:23	Fossi1	actually, what are you supposed to put into that macro for no return value?
10:23	StartsWithK	[methodName [] void]
10:23	Fossi1	ah, void works much better than nil :)
10:24	StartsWithK	takes no args and returns nothing
10:24	blbrown_win	I am assuming Java doesn't have a similar syntax to this: a = 1e6
10:24	Fossi1	now it's compiling again
10:24	Fossi1	thanks
10:25	Fossi1	still, the precompile step is kinda unnice. now i have to tell emacs about the build dir as well
10:27	StartsWithK	blbrown_win: http://is.gd/1NxbM
10:30	blbrown_win	StartsWithK, you are one of those. RTFM.
10:30	blbrown_win	looks like this might work. double d2 = 1.234e2
10:44	achim`	hi! is there a way to create a chunk from a java array?
10:44	rhickey	naming question for the day - what to name the things created by new new?
10:45	rhickey	achim`: clojure.lang.ArrayChunk
10:51	achim`	rhickey: thanks! i wasn't sure whether that's part of the official api
10:54	rhickey	achim`: It's not, why do you need it?
10:59	achim`	rhickey: it would be handy for I/O: reading bursts of bytes into arrays, but hiding the array stuff. i have been doing this with seqs of arrays and was wondering whether it would work with chunked seqs
11:02	achim`	but ArrayChunk doesn't seem to work with primitive arrays
11:03	rhickey	achim`: just going to ask that
11:04	rhickey	so, you could emulate what it does, but if you are trying to avoid boxing the bytes you might be better off with seqs of arrays for now
11:22	AWizzArd	anyone here used javacc for lexing purposes + Clojure?
11:24	achim`	rhickey: you're right. i just started looking at chunked seqs. also, there's no way to get to the array, once wrapped in an ArrayChunk (which makes sense in terms of immutability, of course)
11:24	achim`	sadly, java doesn't have readonly arrays
11:32	AWizzArd	is there a way similar to Java to check for a char being between a range? (if (<= 65 my-char 77) ...)
11:32	clojurebot	for is not used enough
11:32	rhickey	AWizzArd: coerce to int
11:32	AWizzArd	oki
11:32	rhickey	,(int \A)
11:32	clojurebot	65
12:30	rhickey	obj as special form name for new new?
12:30	rhickey	(obj this [bases] [super-ctor-args]
12:30	rhickey	:volatile [some captured names]
12:30	rhickey	:other-flags tbd
12:30	rhickey	(method1 [] ...)
12:30	rhickey	(method2 [] ...))
12:31	rhickey	this-name, :volatile, :other-flags all optional
12:32	rhickey	pronunciation is a bit rough, objet like in French?
12:36	rottcodd	would object be too long?
12:37	rhickey	rottcodd: not necessarily
12:48	arbscht	object feels more natural than obj
12:48	rhickey	could also be new:
12:48	rhickey	(new [bases] [super-ctor-args]
12:48	rhickey	:as this
12:48	rhickey	:volatile [some captured names]
12:48	rhickey	:other-flags tbd
12:48	rhickey	(method1 [] ...)
12:48	rhickey	(method2 [] ...))
12:49	Chousuke	not necessarily a breaking change, is it?
12:50	rhickey	the bigger question is what to call what this creates? it is a little like an anonymous inner class (not quite) and a little like a closure (will eventually be used to implement fn)
12:50	rhickey	Chousuke: new like that is not a breaking change
12:50	Chousuke	Classure? :P
12:51	arbscht	(being this [..] ...)
12:51	arbscht	call it a "being"
12:52	Chousuke	Any reason you're not making the :options just a simple map? would be easier to work with from macros and all :/
13:04	achim`	i like obj, its creations being objs. one new concept, one new name. overloading new has its benefits (both make instances), but might also be more confusing
13:51	lbj1	How many bugs have been found in Core this year ?
14:12	achim`	hmmm ... probably a stupid question: is there a way to not retain head in a function that's passed a lazy seq and has to consume it entirely?
14:13	lbj1	You mean like dorun ?
14:17	Chousuke	it shouldn't retain the head if you don't explicitly hold on to it when you do recur :P
14:25	achim`	lisppaste8: url
14:25	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
14:26	lisppaste8	achim pasted "off with its head" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84232
14:27	achim`	i basically need "doseq-and-forget" :)
14:30	maacl	What is the easiest way of doing simple job scheduling (e.g. call a function every 10 min) in Clojure? I looked at http://bit.ly/gOgRx but this seems a little elaborate for something as simple.
14:31	Fossi1	i was about to say quartz
14:32	Fossi1	also, the job is pretty much already done, so why not use that?
14:32	lbj1	maacl: Depends on the job - For some tasks a worker-thread which calls it self with a given delay will suffice
14:33	achim`	maacl: Executors/newScheduledThreadPool
14:33	achim`	maacl: and then (.scheduleAtFixedRate ...)
14:33	achim`	maacl: Executors is in java.util.concurrent
14:36	maacl	ah - thanks for the feedback - will give Executors a look
14:44	Fossi1	man, i suck at designing 'stateless' systems ;D
14:45	Fossi1	i'm trying to get some design into things upfront, but i'm somehow captured in all those OO patterns
14:45	Fossi1	maybe i shouldn't worry about it at all and see where i arrive
14:49	lbj1	Which categories of programming would you normally argue are best suited for FP ?
14:58	achim`	is this correct?: when a function takes a lazy seq argument and has to consume it entirely to produce the result, the only way to not retain head is to recur without looping?
15:23	krumholt_	is there a good book about functional software design or functional algorithm design?
15:26	ataggart	rich put up an amazon bookshelf of the stuff he read when designing clojure
15:27	ataggart	might be something in there
15:27	ataggart	of course there's SICP if it's really new to you
15:27	ataggart	like it is for me
15:28	lbj1	Which categories of programming would you normally argue are best suited for FP ?
15:28	krumholt_	ataggart, ok thanks.
15:28	ataggart	found it
15:28	ataggart	http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R3LG3ZBZS4GCTH/ref=cm_pdp_lm_title_1
15:28	krumholt_	oh fantastic thanks
15:28	Fossi1	lbj1: i don't get what that means
15:29	ataggart	lbj1: any where you can, I would think
15:29	lbj1	Fossi1: Would you say that FP is really suited for game development for instance? data parsers? etc..?
15:29	ataggart	all of the above
15:30	ataggart	it's lke asking what OO is best for
15:30	ataggart	so long as you're not having to write machine code, it's really up to you
15:31	lbj1	I'm not sure thats right, but ok, thats one view
15:31	duck1123	The only thing that FP really isn't good for is code you want to be brittle and hard to test.
15:31	ataggart	well if you have an opinion, feel free to voice it
15:31	Fossi1	from my opinion just now, game coding is a little weird
15:31	ataggart	duck1123: lol
15:32	Fossi1	so many side effects
15:32	ataggart	yes, side-effect heavy, or lots of state manipulation
15:32	Fossi1	but then again, every serious computer program has lots of in-/ and outputs
15:32	ataggart	but I read a neat article making the argument that there isn't as much of that as one initially supposes
15:32	ataggart	let me see if I can find it
15:33	Fossi1	that'd be cool
15:33	ataggart	http://prog21.dadgum.com/23.html
15:33	ataggart	that
15:33	Fossi1	i guess i'll have a look at some functional game engines on the way as well
15:33	ataggart	as Rich and others have said: a program without side-effects can only heat up your computer
15:34	duck1123	I think the snake game is a good example of how you would think to have a lot of mutable state, but if you think about the problems right, there is very little
15:34	lbj1	How little?
15:34	ataggart	yup, I'm glad he put that in the book
15:34	Fossi1	i guess it comes down to: have a loop, modify game state, push that into the rendering
15:34	ataggart	lbj1: have you read the clojure book yet?
15:34	hiredman	http://www.st.cs.uni-sb.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf <-- "The Next Mainstream Programming Languages: A Game Developer's Perspective"
15:34	lbj1	ataggart: No, and I dont plan to
15:35	duck1123	I think like < 10% of the code dealt with mutation
15:35	duck1123	my book is in the other room
15:36	Fossi1	thanks hiredman
15:37	ataggart	It'd be really nice if we could collect these links on the clojure site somewhere
15:38	hiredman	clojurebot: delicious
15:38	clojurebot	delicious is http://delicious.com/clojurebot
15:38	hiredman	clojurebot posts all urls from the channel, tagged with nick+channel
15:38	ataggart	ah excellent
15:38	duck1123	it would be cool if clojurebot did something like the bot in #swig where he could track all the url's mentioned in chat
15:38	ataggart	lol
15:38	duck1123	nvm then
15:57	Fossi1	too much haskell for me :D
15:58	Fossi1	but interesting nevertheless
15:58	lbj1	Very
16:33	Fossi1	i sthe idiomatic way to add a single element to a seq: ,(concat '(1 2 3) '(4))?
16:34	hiredman	there is no idomatic way to add to the tail of a seq
16:34	hiredman	you can do it, but it is just not how the structure is designed to be used
16:38	ataggart	or you can rephrase "add to the tail" to "start returning this other seqence when the first one is empty"
16:41	Fossi1	actually, i just want a smallish vector or something with a special value at the end
16:41	ataggart	ah, then use vec
16:42	Fossi1	,(vector '(1 2 3) 4)
16:42	clojurebot	[(1 2 3) 4]
16:42	ataggart	(vec '(1 2 3))
16:43	ataggart	,(vec '(1 2 3))
16:43	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
16:43	Fossi1	and then?
16:43	ataggart	(conj (vec '(1 2 3)) 4)
16:43	ataggart	,(conj (vec '(1 2 3)) 4)
16:43	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
16:43	Fossi1	ah, conj
16:43	ataggart	conj on a vector adds at the end
16:44	Fossi1	but is it guaranteed that will always be that way?
16:44	ataggart	yup
16:44	ataggart	(doc conj)
16:44	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
16:44	ataggart	,(doc conj)
16:44	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
16:44	ataggart	guess the detail is elsewhere
16:44	ataggart	but yes, vectors at the end, lists at the head
16:44	Fossi1	guess so as well
16:44	ataggart	,(conj '(1 2 3) 4)
16:44	clojurebot	(4 1 2 3)
16:45	Fossi1	because i looked for that for a while
16:45	Fossi1	yes sir, my app works
16:46	Fossi1	i can now display a colored screen and make it change color randomly on touch
16:46	Fossi1	a small step for a game, a big step for me ;D
16:46	ataggart	excellent
16:46	ataggart	"touch"?
16:46	Fossi1	clojure on android with opengles
16:47	ataggart	ah neat
16:47	Fossi1	took a while to set up, but there was quite a base to start from as well
16:48	Fossi1	or at least some bits n pieces :)
16:48	Fossi1	bedtime now, i need to get up at 7 and code some more :D
16:48	Raynes	One small step for games, one huge step for Clojurians.
16:52	Anniepoo	whoo hoo - Clojure on Android?
16:53	Anniepoo	Fossi, how did this miracle come about?
17:00	Chouser	rhickey: I'm curious if you'd entertain syntax for newnew that avoids the sub-form (foo ...) when defining foo
17:00	Chouser	proxy is currently one of the few places that (foo ...) means anything other than invoking foo.
17:02	Chouser	maybe, for example: (new [AFn] [] (defm invoke [a b] ...))
17:06	hiredman	that would be the only place where def something doesn't result in a modification to global names
17:06	Chouser	fwiw, I think I prefer 'new' to 'obj'. "Use 'new' to create a 'Clojure object', which is Java object but whose methods can close over locals..."
17:07	Chouser	hiredman: hm... Well, I'm not sold on a particular name, but I think any name would be nice compared to no name at all.
17:07	Chouser	(method invoke [a b] ...)
19:59	wulfmax	?
19:59	wulfmax	help
20:00	durka42	?
20:00	wulfmax	sorry,typo
21:02	mebaran151	,(+ 1 1)
21:02	clojurebot	2
21:02	mebaran151	,(defn xyz [] (+ 1 1))
21:02	clojurebot	DENIED
21:02	mebaran151	,((defn xyz [] (+ 1 1)))
21:02	clojurebot	DENIED
21:02	mebaran151	,((fn xyz [] (+ 1 1)))
21:02	clojurebot	2
21:06	mebaran151	do fn's allow for names only to enable simpler recursion
21:07	hiredman	they are useful in a number of situations
21:07	hiredman	like if you have an otherwise anonymous function that you send to an agent that wants to keep sending ittself off to an agent
21:07	hiredman	a lazy-seq generated by a fn