#clojure – 2009-07-23

2009-07-23

00:24	Anniepoo	Some architectural advice pls - I have a classic MVC pattern desktop editor that edits a bunch of rectangles
00:25	Anniepoo	the rectangles will need to interact - they have a bunch of constraints one to the next
00:26	Anniepoo	I've built the shell of the UI that does this, but am ready to add the model and start adding widgets
00:27	Anniepoo	I know that this is the classic situation where it's hard to keep the view out of the model, cause there's all this current state info that the two have to interact on
00:28	Anniepoo	So I'm trying to figure out how to make them play together better than Java allows.
00:28	Anniepoo	anybody have a design pattern for this?
01:44	Jomyoot	If you will have lots and lots of updates. is hashmap in clojure much slower than Java hashmap?
01:51	Jomyoot	Does Slime or any IDE support refactoring in Clojure yet?
02:02	mebaran151	your definition of lots is key
02:02	mebaran151	it's a log32 n datastructure as opposed to a constant time datastructure
02:02	mebaran151	so plan accordingly
02:12	duncanm	when using the PROXY form, is there a way to access the this pointer?
02:16	Mark_Addleman	chouser, thanks for the hint. i've got this now: (for [x (for [[p c] x] (map #(cons p %) c))] x)
02:17	Mark_Addleman	that yields (((1235 0 17)) ((1236 0 15) (1236 16 8))) which is awfully close to what i want except for all the sublists. is there a function that will partially flatten that list?
02:21	fffej	,'(1 , 2)
02:21	clojurebot	(1 2)
02:21	fffej	is there any way to get the "," as a symbol in the above expression? (e.g. an escaping like Lisps \|,\|)
02:22	Mark_Addleman	ffej: is this what you want: (interpose (symbol ",") [1 2]) ?
02:22	Mark_Addleman	,(interpose (symbol ",") [1 2])
02:22	clojurebot	(1 , 2)
02:23	fffej	perfect, thanks
02:25	Jomyoot	what is the macro to combine the result of (while something is ok) into a seq?
02:27	duncanm	Jomyoot: huh?
02:29	notostraca	filter?
02:29	notostraca	not sure what you are asking
02:29	mebaran151	Jomyoot, reduce will do almost anything you want
02:30	Jomyoot	i can write this with loop and recurse
02:30	Jomyoot	but hope something is already out there
02:32	zmyrgel	Where can I find the info how to build apps with clojure?
02:32	Jomyoot	is there good listing of all these (loop) (map) (while) (for) in one place?
02:32	duncanm	then it's probably reduce
02:32	zmyrgel	I don't mean the syntax, more in the way how functional programs are designed
02:33	fffej	try SICP or HTDP
02:33	duncanm	Jomyoot: can you show your code? if your'e doing it like that, you're probably not using the right combinators
02:33	zmyrgel	fffej: HTDP?
02:33	mebaran151	zmyrgel, Paul Graham's On Lisp is decent
02:33	duncanm	How To Design Programs
02:34	zmyrgel	ok, SICP has been on my to-do list for some time. I might be go with that
02:34	fffej	zmyrgel: they're both awesome books on designing functional programmes
02:34	fffej	zmyrgel: and you can watch the videos on your iPod
02:34	mebaran151	SICP is sort of the magic koolaid of programming
02:34	zmyrgel	:)
02:35	mebaran151	or the electric koolaid acid test if you would
02:35	mebaran151	everything from the 60's was just a little more farout
02:35	zmyrgel	One of the clojures nice features is that it works on platforms.
02:36	mebaran151	it's great to have a good lisp to suggest to people on Windows
02:36	mebaran151	what's the best way to run tests in Clojure
02:36	zmyrgel	I have been trying to get Haskell to work on my computers but it seems a losing battle
02:36	mebaran151	I'd love to be able to put them in the test dir of clojure project in netbeans and pound F11 until the pass
02:36	mebaran151	but I haven't figured out how to hook in the runner
02:36	mebaran151	zmyrgel, I once tried to compile it from scratch: and so lost 5 hours of my life
02:36	zmyrgel	well, theres some older haskell compiler present as the newer fail to compile or contain bugs
02:37	zmyrgel	Otherwise Haskell would be pretty interresting language
02:37	mebaran151	the thing goes through a Perl mangler to optimize the bytecodes
02:37	zmyrgel	Has anyone read the Programming Clojure?
02:37	mebaran151	have you tried OCaml?
02:37	mebaran151	Ocaml tends to actually work
02:38	zmyrgel	I've installed it but haven't tried it
02:38	mebaran151	and it's in the same spirit as Haskell, with a little less ocd about purity
02:38	mebaran151	a colleague bought the Clojure Book
02:38	mebaran151	it's actually one of the better Pragmatic ones
02:38	mebaran151	Halloway wrote really clearly
02:38	mebaran151	much better than the Ruby reference
02:39	zmyrgel	Does the book have anything related to how design apps or does it focus on the syntax stuff that can be learned from wiki/tutorials etc?
02:41	zmyrgel	wtf does that sicp contain?... Its priced 170 EUR on local bookstore
02:43	duncanm	zmyrgel: you can watch the online lectures instead, those are free
02:44	hiredman	clojurebot: sicp?
02:44	clojurebot	sicp is http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.001/sicp.pdf
02:44	hiredman	share and enjoy
02:44	zmyrgel	duncanm: I prefer good solid book for reading :)
02:44	hiredman	clojurebot: literal [?] sicp
02:44	clojurebot	2
02:44	hiredman	clojurebot: literal [0] sicp
02:44	clojurebot	http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages:Clojure:Chapter_1
02:45	hiredman	clojurebot: literal [2] sicp
02:45	clojurebot	2 is out of range
02:45	duncanm	the lectures are really good, it's given by the same people who wrote the book
02:45	zmyrgel	At least Amazon has it cheaper
02:45	hiredman	clojurebot: literal [1] sicp
02:45	clojurebot	http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.001/sicp.pdf
02:45	hiredman	clojurebot: delicious
02:45	clojurebot	delicious is http://delicious.com/clojurebot
02:46	hiredman	clojurebot: sicp is also <reply>http://sicpinclojure.com/
02:46	clojurebot	Roger.
02:47	zmyrgel	How would you start web programming with clojure?
02:48	hiredman	clojurebot: compojure?
02:48	clojurebot	compojure is http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master
02:48	hiredman	I think compojure must be the easiest place to start
02:48	zmyrgel	can the jetty be replaced with Apache + tomcat?
02:49	hiredman	I am pretty sure compojure has been deployed in tomcat
02:49	zmyrgel	Good :)
02:50	zmyrgel	I have more experience with that combo and my server has Apache as default so I don't have to make unnecessary changes
02:51	hiredman	easiest might be to just have apache proxy for jetty
02:51	hiredman	which is what I am doing for my jetty install
02:51	hiredman	but I really have not played with compojure in many months
02:52	zmyrgel	Gotta look into that once I get my new server up and running
02:52	zmyrgel	should arrive tonight :)
02:52	zmyrgel	more toys for me to play with :)
02:53	mebaran151	I just setup up compojure behind a jetty proxy
02:53	mebaran151	jetty is classy software
02:53	mebaran151	*jetty behind a lighttpd proxy
02:53	mebaran151	was actually a pretty smooth experience
02:54	mebaran151	you could even probaby just take advantage of the embedded jetty server, compile it as jar and never have to worry about any deployment stuff again
02:55	zmyrgel	ok
02:55	zmyrgel	hmm, but now I think I need to focus why my script loses ~3k customers at some point...
02:57	mebaran151	loses 3k customers?
02:59	zmyrgel	parses customer data from our servers and now gets about 3k less than before
03:01	Jomyoot	i am naive here: but if each time you add a new item to hash map. it creates a new hash map. isn't that very expensive action then?
03:01	Jomyoot	since a hash-map will be copied over and over
03:03	mebaran151	Jomyoot, hash maps in clojure are persistent
03:03	mebaran151	it uses the old hashmap as the basis of the new one
03:03	Jomyoot	is that the same for all collections in clojure?
03:03	mebaran151	yep
03:04	hiredman	Jomyoot: please checkout the clojure website, clojure.org, and in specific http://clojure.org/data_structures
03:04	hiredman	~bliptv
03:04	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:04	hiredman	bah
03:04	hiredman	~blip.tv
03:04	clojurebot	blip.tv is http://clojure.blip.tv/
03:05	hiredman	there are some good intro to clojure videos there
03:05	mebaran151	what's the nest way to turn a clojure map into a byte array?
03:05	duncanm	hey hiredman
03:05	duncanm	hiredman: do you do any swing programming with Clojure?
03:06	hiredman	not much
03:06	hiredman	very littel, in fact, but some
03:06	duncanm	i'm trying to follow some tutorial, but it requires extending a JComponent
03:06	duncanm	i tried getting by with just using the PROXY form, but i can't get hold of the 'this' pointer
03:07	hiredman	duncanm: this is bound to the proxy object inside the fns implementing methods
03:08	duncanm	the keyword 'this' ?
03:08	hiredman	the symbol this
03:08	duncanm	right
03:08	duncanm	hmm
03:09	hiredman	hmmm
03:10	hiredman	yeah
03:10	hiredman	user=> @(proxy [clojure.lang.IDeref] [] (deref [] (class this)))
03:10	hiredman	clojure.proxy.java.lang.Object$IDeref
03:12	hiredman	mebaran151: do you mean some kind of serialization process?
03:12	mebaran151	yep
03:12	mebaran151	right now I just string and read back in
03:12	mebaran151	(str myhashmap
03:13	hiredman	maybe prn-str and .getBytes
03:13	mebaran151	but I feel like there is probably a more efficient opcode built in somewhere
03:13	hiredman	nah
03:13	hiredman	but use prn-str
03:15	mebaran151	currently doing that for my little bdb wrapper
03:16	mebaran151	you wouldn't happen to know the easiest way to simply deflate a string and reinflate it
03:16	mebaran151	the Java libraries seem to demand a lot of ceremony
03:16	hiredman	deflate? like compress?
03:17	mebaran151	yeah
03:17	mebaran151	as in the deflate algo
03:18	hiredman	dunno deflate, java has built in zip support since jars are just zips
03:20	jdz	also has a gzip support
03:20	jdz	don't know what you are talking, though
03:21	jdz	about
03:21	mebaran151	it has deflate built in too
03:21	mebaran151	I just haven't found a simple way to take a string and return gzipped version, and unzip that version
03:21	mebaran151	I was hoping there was an easier than way than having to manually manage the byte buffers all myself
03:22	hiredman	I have a wrapper for zipping and unzipping strings
03:23	mebaran151	oh, that sounds perfect
03:23	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/152502
03:23	mebaran151	thanks hiredman
03:23	hiredman	I haven't touched it in a while so there may be bitrot
03:23	mebaran151	it looks like a fine starting point
03:24	hiredman	well good luck
03:24	mebaran151	for all the bloat of Java libraries, I wish they'd provide more convenience methods
03:24	hiredman	heh
03:25	jdz	http://paste.lisp.org/display/68935
03:26	lisppaste8	jdz pasted "my current version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84048
03:27	mebaran151	I'm still trying to figure out the best place to put tests too
03:28	mebaran151	I'm using the rather excellent enclojure plugin, but I'm not sure how to integrate it with Junit or not
03:28	mebaran151	I'm debating doing it old school python style, putting them as executable code at the bottom of my file that will only be evaluated if a special variable is set, but that feels pretty hack
03:28	hiredman	test-is just got moved from contrib into clojure under clojure.test
03:29	mebaran151	how would I run test-is under junit?
03:29	hiredman	dunno
03:30	mebaran151	I also have an async http agent implementation using apache commons that works a lot better than the http agent in clojure.contrib
03:30	mebaran151	could a clojure contrib library have a dependency outside the standard library?
03:30	hiredman	some of it does
03:30	hiredman	contrib is kind of a sprawl
03:31	hiredman	or I think it does, I don't really keep up with contrib
03:31	ataggart	avoiding external deps would be a good thing
03:32	mebaran151	I'll be putting up some stuff on github pretty soon that I'd be happy to share
03:32	mebaran151	async io in Java though can be really nasty with some common sense wrapping
03:33	mebaran151	clojure could use a nice package manager: rubygems spoiled me
03:35	mebaran151	*without some common sense wrappings
05:00	mebaran151	I'm getting a strange error: can multimethods be used within macros?
05:03	gulagong_	hi
05:03	lisppaste8	ataggart pasted "Updated contrib logging" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84053
05:04	gulagong_	i want to combine -> with map - any better solution than #(map %2 %1) ?
05:08	mebaran151	I'm getting this weird error when I nest two macros: can't embed object in code: maybe print-dup not defined
05:10	gulagong_	is there a possibility to beautify this? (-> '(1 2 3 4) (#(map %2 %1) #(inc %1)))
05:12	AWizzArd	,(-> '(1 2 3 4) (#(map %2 %1) #(inc %1)))
05:12	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5)
05:12	AWizzArd	what is wrong about
05:12	AWizzArd	,(map inc [1 2 3 4])
05:12	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5)
05:13	gulagong_	ok... increasing is not really what i want to do :)
05:13	Chousuke	my best advice is: don't
05:13	gulagong_	i want to map a bunch of complex operations on a map
05:14	AWizzArd	gulagong_: good ideas are: reduce, for, loop.
05:14	Chousuke	use comp?
05:14	Chousuke	(map (comp op1 op2 op3 op4) coll)
05:14	AWizzArd	loop and reduce can do anything, but loop can be cleaner for very complex stuff.
05:14	gulagong_	oh, cool
05:14	AWizzArd	map and filter are only special cases of reduce.
05:14	gulagong_	comp looks like what i want
05:14	gulagong_	thx :)
05:14	jdz	gulagong_: there's also partial
05:36	Fossi	does anybody here know what the 'CA' is, that is needed to get into the clojure Assembla thing?
05:37	Fossi	Certificate Authority?
05:37	Fossi	but then, what's the deal with that?
05:38	rottcodd	http://clojure.org/contributing
05:39	Fossi	ah, ok. that makes more sense
05:45	Fossi	gen-html-docs: "* Figure out why the source doesn't show up for most things"
05:46	Fossi	i have that exact problem when running from console. i really wonder what the fix was supposed to be
05:46	Fossi	i guess it's time to dig into the logs
05:51	Fossi	too bad the import into contrib lost the history of whereever it has been developed before...
06:00	deriksson	Why is there an asterisk in duck stream's "slurp*"? Is this a convention or a way of avoiding collisions with "slurp".
06:16	rottcodd	deriksson: in common lisp, there is a convention that f* a variation of f
06:16	deriksson	thanks, rottcodd!
06:40	djpowell	anyone know much about the jmx stuff in contrib?
06:55	fsm	Hello everyone.
06:55	AWizzArd	Hi fsm, how is that Raytracer going?
06:55	fsm	Here is my Clojure raytracer source code.
06:55	fsm	http://tu.be/graphics/tracer.zip
07:07	Thorn	fsm: seems about as fast as povray
07:10	Thorn	vector math in lisp looks pretty painful
07:12	fsm	The vector math in clojure is OK
07:12	fsm	You can basically use java primitive arrays
07:12	fsm	Unfortunately you cannot use SSE so that is the bottleneck
07:13	AWizzArd	Can Java code use SSE?
07:13	fsm	You can use it via JNI calls
07:14	fsm	but for operations on small vectors, the JNI overhead kills it
07:14	fsm	plus, the data has to be allocated on the native side so it is word-aligned properly
07:14	fsm	(at least that is my understanding)
07:15	fsm	If you are in C/C++ you can use the intel performance library where common 3d operations are practically a cpu instruction
07:15	fsm	(again at least that is my understanding)
07:21	Thorn	I wonder if CUDA can be efficiently used from jvm
07:23	AWizzArd	rhickey: do you currently (mainly) work on data parallelism for Clojure? Some days ago I read something from you about parallel vectors, etc.
07:23	AWizzArd	Thorn: yeah, that would be very very interesting. I would so very much like to have a way to run some Clojure functions on my video card.
07:24	rhickey	AWizzArd: parallel map and reduce (pvmap and pvreduce) for ordinary Clojure vectors is up now in the par branch
07:24	AWizzArd	ah ok, so the par branch is what I want :)
07:25	rhickey	AWizzArd: check the irc log from yesterday - I described how to get going with it
07:27	AWizzArd	k
07:28	Thorn	AWizzArd: whatever code you need to run on video card using cuda you'd need to compile it into their C dialect if I'm not mistaken
07:35	fsm	I believe it is standardising on OpenCL
07:37	fsm	What is the execution time for that example render on your machine, out of interest?
07:38	AWizzArd	Thorn: yes, for today this is true. But there may be limited compilers from Java Bytecode to Video_Card_Bytecode, or they may be JREs in the future, running on video cards.
07:39	Thorn	fsm: 75.8 sec, 2111 pixels/sec (cpu is Q9300)
07:40	Thorn	AWizzArd: what about architecture differences between CPUs and GPUs? is it even possible?
07:40	fsm	Hm, I am 173 seconds on macbook pro 2.53ghz
07:41	Thorn	linux 64-bit, jdk is sun 1.6.0.14
07:42	djpowell	did you use "java -server"
07:42	Thorn	nope, I'll rerun with it
07:43	djpowell	i get 93.8 seconds on a quad core q6600, with -server
07:43	Thorn	76.7 sec with -server
07:52	fsm	Thanks everyone, goodnight.
07:53	Thorn	hm, http://www.jcuda.org/
07:56	AWizzArd	Thorn: I don't think that with todays technology it is possible to have a (nearly) full JRE on video cards. But that may change in the next years.
07:56	AWizzArd	Perhaps before 2020 it will be possible.
07:57	AWizzArd	This is not "soon", but still close enough.
08:14	rhickey	we hit 20000 messages on the Google Group!
08:26	sgtarr_	I see there is an upcoming OReilly LISP book
08:27	sgtarr_	It'll cover CL and Clojure
08:27	sgtarr_	Sweet!
08:36	AWizzArd	sgtarr_: link?
08:39	rottcodd	http://enlivend.livejournal.com/tag/book
08:42	AWizzArd	thx
08:56	Fossi	anybody know by chance who 'nt' is: http://markmail.org/message/fnzwqaa7lxbyme4i#query:log-info%20clojure+page:1+mid:fnzwqaa7lxbyme4i+state:results
08:57	Fossi	and/or where the logger code is from
09:01	duck1123	I can't believe that a book like that is going to put clojure off to chapter 31
09:02	achim	hi all!
09:02	achim	lisppaste8: url
09:02	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
09:03	rsynnott	duck1123: well, it seems to be primarily about common lisp
09:03	duck1123	fair enough
09:03	lisppaste8	achim pasted "arities" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84063
09:03	rsynnott	(it seems to be taking an odd approach; slime introduced in chaper 18?)
09:03	achim	is there a less hackish way than this to retrieve the arities of a fn?
09:04	rhickey	duck1123: I don't have high hopes for its coverage of Clojure - we'll see
09:05	duck1123	any press for lisp is good, I guess
09:05	rsynnott	"The rest of the book revolves around specific proprietary and non-proprietary libraries; each part focuses more or less on a different lisp implementation: Allegro, Clozure, SBCL, LispWorks, Clojure." - that just sounds silly
09:06	Chouser	achim: that's brilliant
09:06	durka42	rsynnott: what struck me as strange about that sentence is that all of those (except clj) are CL implementations
09:06	rhickey	Kind of a shame that when OReilly finally gets around to a Lisp book it's about old Lisp, and having done that they will probably be even less likely to do a Clojure book
09:07	Chouser	achim: a better approach by far than any I've thought or heard of.
09:07	rsynnott	the difference between various implementations of common lisp and one non-CL thing seems a strange thing for such a book to cover
09:07	duck1123	I hope OReilly puts out a clojure book
09:08	achim	Chouser: but it feels ... wrong! :)
09:09	Chouser	achim: I'm not really saying it isn't, but it's a brilliant hack.
09:10	rsynnott	achim: as a matter of interest, why do you want to get arities of a function at runtime?
09:10	duck1123	what seems wrong about it? It seems pretty clear.
09:10	Fossi	it's kinda implementation specific though
09:10	Fossi	at least the 'invoke' part
09:19	achim	rsynnott: i wanted it for debugging a while ago, but the question, how to do it, outlived the bug ;)
09:22	rsynnott	ah :)
09:26	Fossi	AWizzArd: afaik some shader languages are turing complete, so it should be possible to implement a jre. just a pita
09:33	kylesmith	I need to calculate the nearest neighbors within a specified cutoff radius. Switching from the N^2 brute force method to a NlogN binary space partition tree got me a 5X performance improvement. There are structures called "cell-linked lists" which could be faster. Can anyone advise me on this, or should I just code it up and compare?
09:51	cemerick	wow, O'Reilly gave the green light to a new CL book http://lisp-book.org/
10:02	AWizzArd	cemerick: sgtarr_ mentioned it nearly 2 hours ago :p
10:03	cemerick	I guess I'm behind the times
10:03	drewr	no, just behind the time zones
10:08	AWizzArd	Is there something simple that lets me leave out the class for calling a static method? So instead of (or (Character/isSpaceChar %) (Character/isWhitespace %)) I would "import" isSpaceChar and isWhitespace.
10:09	drewr	defn or defmacro
10:10	Chouser	clojure.contrib.import-static
10:10	Chouser	AWizzArd: clojure.contrib.import-static
10:11	AWizzArd	good
10:14	drewr	whoa
10:49	Chouser	drewr: ?
10:55	drewr	Chouser: that was more tongue-in-cheek than it sounded
11:00	Chouser	oh, I see now. Sorry, I actually just misunderstood the topic at hand
11:06	Lau_of_DK	Does S Halloway camp here regularily ?
11:07	drewr	Lau_of_DK: couple times a week maybe; not too often
11:07	cemerick	whoo-wee, perst appears to be pretty nifty (yeah, I'm still OT on key-value stores)
11:07	Lau_of_DK	drewr, thanks
11:07	stuartsierra1	I'm on an RDF kick again, heaven help me: http://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure-rdf
11:09	duck11231	stuartsierra1: You're going to go with a fresh implementation?
11:10	stuartsierra1	Well, I'm trying to define an abstract API that is pure Clojure, then add various Java libs as back-ends.
11:10	duck1123	I did some work on a clojure wrapper for jena, but i abandoned it to go a different way
11:11	stuartsierra1	I did the same thing with Sesame a couple of years ago, and abandoned it as well.
11:11	rhickey	stuartsierra1: how did you find Sesame?
11:12	stuartsierra1	Not bad, nicer API than Jena, but too slow for my purposes.
11:12	rhickey	using the native store? with how many triples?
11:13	stuartsierra1	Yes, the native store, with a few hundred thousand triples.
11:13	stuartsierra1	It wasn't the retrieval times that were too slow, it was bulk load/deletes.
11:14	rhickey	I've just started looking at Sesame and Open Link Virtuoso
11:14	stuartsierra1	Virtuoso is definitely interesting, haven't tried it.
11:15	duck1123	a clojure library for working with talis would be kinda cool
11:39	stuartsierra1	How can I un-import a java.lang class from a namespace?
11:41	stuartsierra1	(ns-unmap ns 'Class)
12:17	Fossi	how in hell do you create an ordered list?
12:18	Fossi	without having to cons all the items together
12:18	Chouser	easier to do when not in hell.
12:18	Chouser	,(list 1 2 3 4) ?
12:18	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
12:18	cemerick	heh
12:18	Lau_of_DK	Fossi: Dont let Chouser catch you swearing in #Clojure, he'll not be merciful
12:18	Fossi	Lau_of_DK: i noticed
12:18	rzoom	Fossi: can't be done. hell doesn't have clojure
12:18	Chousuke	D:
12:19	Lau_of_DK	Hell might have Python though, so look into that
12:19	Chouser	Fossi: is 'list' what you wanted there, or are you asking for something else?
12:19	Chousuke	rzoom: it does, but it has no immutable collections.
12:19	Chouser	Chousuke: ouch
12:19	Fossi	so, if in a macro, how can i "(list "foo" (func ~some-param))"?
12:19	Fossi	hmm or wait
12:20	Chouser	, `(foo ~@(list 1 2 3))
12:20	clojurebot	(sandbox/foo 1 2 3)
12:20	Chouser	,(cons `foo (list 1 2 3))
12:20	clojurebot	(sandbox/foo 1 2 3)
12:20	Fossi	yeah, i'm more or less just being stupid
12:20	Fossi	the macro was right, just the usage was off
12:21	Chouser	np... writing macros can put you in a weird state of mind.
12:21	Fossi	macros have to be the most "horrible" thing language feature ever apart from monads maybe
12:22	Fossi	but then again... so tempting :D
12:22	Chousuke	horrible? syntactic abstraction is horrible? :)
12:22	Lau_of_DK	Agreed Fossi - Macros hurt people
12:23	Chousuke	people hurt people!
12:23	Fossi	it horrible to wrap your head around
12:23	Fossi	actually it feels more like being wrapped around it
12:23	Chousuke	Fossi: a macro is just a transformation function
12:23	Chousuke	Fossi: its arguments are clojure data structures, and its output is clojure code.
12:23	Chousuke	that's all.
12:23	Fossi	yeah, yeah. i get the concept
12:23	Chouser	monads help you work around restriction you or the language are putting on yourself
12:24	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Its like Rocket science - You've got your rockets and your science... that's all.
12:24	Chouser	macros let you write code that would otherwise be impossible
12:24	Fossi	but with flexible parameter lists and wanting to do something to those you get into a lot of strange "code" sooner or later
12:25	Chousuke	complex macros can be difficult, but I don't really see them as any worse than complex functions.
12:26	Chousuke	clojure's macro system is nice in that it's pretty difficult to accidentally write a "bad" macro.
12:26	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Funny, I dont have that much trouble with it :)
12:26	Chousuke	writing bad macros? :P
12:28	Lau_of_DK	Yea
12:29	Chousuke	Well, I usually end up with a macro that doesn't work rather than one that works but breaks your code in mysterious ways if accidentally used in the wrong environment.
12:30	Fossi	yeah, common lisp mine tend to go bad like that
12:30	Fossi	*in
12:31	Lau_of_DK	But for a fantastic shiny example of macros used in the right way - I encourage everybody to check out ClojureQL
12:31	mebaran151	what's the best choice for simple light full text search for clojure: is Java the main option
12:33	Lau_of_DK	mebaran151: full text search ?
12:33	mebaran151	*lucene
12:33	mebaran151	I just want a full text search addon to complement some stuff I'm doing in BerkeleyDB
12:34	mebaran151	that's why it would be nice if it were light
12:36	stuartsierra1	full-text search isn't really a "light" problem :)
12:37	duck1123	Clojure has made me a snob when it comes to the literal representation of deeply nested series hashmaps and vectors
12:38	duck1123	I'm dealing with PHP right now, and I want to re-write this data
12:39	Fossi	mebaran151: what's wrong with lucene?
12:39	mebaran151	it always just seemed a little clunky
12:40	mebaran151	thought that maybe since I'd been away, the Java world had developed something better
12:40	Fossi	does the job for me
12:40	Fossi	on a pretty good scale as well
12:40	mebaran151	it's good to hear that
12:40	mebaran151	I using solr, which never seemed too inspirational
12:41	technomancy	lucene's API is pretty sane.
12:44	cemerick	mebaran151: compass is interesting, insofar as it tries to eliminate the datastore/FTI mismatch
12:44	mebaran151	I'll check it out
12:45	mebaran151	yeah, I have basic inverted word index running on top of bdb, but it seems like including something more sophisticated would be nice
12:45	cemerick	the disappointing thing about it is that it really wants to be hooked into JPA, and (primarily) uses annotations to determine what fields to index in your object model.
12:46	cemerick	mebaran151: I'm eval'ing perst right now, which has baked-in fulltext, as well as lucene integration. So far, so good.
12:46	mebaran151	the thing that was most disappointing about most of these utilities was they required me to fix the field types up front, which is a no go for this project
12:47	mebaran151	oh perst does look pretty nifty
12:48	drewr	bledg
12:49	drewr	wrong window
12:49	drewr	i think my laptop keyboard is going out
12:49	cemerick	mebaran151: yeah -- the spec page had me saying "oh, yeah, right!", but so far, it's working out nicely.
12:50	mebaran151	what's their license like? is it similar to berkeleydb, where if it stays on your own sever, you're covered?
12:50	cemerick	yeah, it's GPL, or commercially-licensed
12:51	cemerick	I'm particularly interested in seeing if its lucene FTS works out nicely -- being able to have the DB and FTI in one file will be huge.
12:52	mebaran151	that would be really nice
12:52	cemerick	lucene has a BDB backend, but the benchmarks I saw for it aren't pretty
12:53	mebaran151	bdb usually seems pretty performant
12:53	cemerick	yeah, I'm sure it has far more to do with the lucene Directory impl
12:54	mebaran151	that surprises: it's a fairly light layer over simple btree disks
12:54	mebaran151	an even my naive downcase, split words and attach to secondary index actually worked out pretty well
12:56	shoover	ThruDB has a key-value database and full text search via Thrudoc and Thrudex. When I looked, it felt like bdb with a simpler api. New BSD license. http://code.google.com/p/thrudb/
12:56	shoover	Oh, it's client/server. Maybe you need embedded
12:56	mebaran151	I'd like to embed this
12:56	cemerick	yeah, embedded is a major constraint
12:57	cemerick	shoover: thanks though, hadn't seen thudb
12:57	cemerick	thrudb*
12:57	mebaran151	well I also like to have control of my data: for backing it up and what not
12:59	mebaran151	also if you don't need multiple processes hitting the db
13:00	shoover	mebaran151: you would control your data
13:00	mebaran151	oh its not like an amazon service?
13:00	shoover	no, it's client/server but you run both
13:01	shoover	I bet the server only runs on unix, but it looks like they're working on a java implementation of that too
13:01	mebaran151	ah that's a little better but the added complexity of client server rarely seems worth it, and it hurts performance on smaller deployments to pay for the IPC when you only have one process
13:18	hserus	has test-is been moved out of contrib recently?
13:18	stuartsierra1	yes, now it's clojure.test
13:18	hserus	ah, ok.. thanks
13:19	Chouser	hserus: also some changes to the 'are' syntax
13:19	hserus	will check it out
13:24	replaca	does anyone understand why JSON strings seem to want \ before /?
13:24	replaca	do they really care?
13:25	danlarkin	I don't think / needs to be escaped, does it?
13:26	Chouser	I wouldn't think so
13:26	Chouser	not listed at json.org
13:26	Chouser	hm, though it is accepted.
13:26	danlarkin	well that makes sense
13:26	danlarkin	escaped slash is slash
13:26	Chouser	escape b is backspace
13:27	danlarkin	I think all non-control characters escape to themselves, right?
13:27	replaca	yeah, it's accepted but it doesn't say what's "required" that's what confused me
13:29	replaca	why would it even be "accepted"? If you look at the grammar at json.org, it doesn't seem to allow anything to be escaped, but it explicitly includes /
13:29	hserus	where can i find clojure.test? dont seem to be able to find it
13:29	Chousuke	hserus: it's only in git clojure right now
13:29	ieure	replaca, For some reason, lots of people escape forward slashes in JSON. I don’t know why; it’s not necessary, as far as I know.
13:29	ieure	replaca, I just string-replace them back to / before deserializing.
13:30	Chousuke	hserus: if you need to use test-is with 1.0.0, use the 1.0.0-compatible branch of clojure.
13:30	hserus	Chousuke: thanks
13:30	Chousuke	hserus: er, contrib
13:30	replaca	weird
13:31	ieure	replaca, Yeah. It’s really dumb. This has a quasi-reasonable rationale: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/json/message/249
13:32	ieure	Though I think that’s an example of Doctor It Hurts When I Do This.
13:32	replaca	stuart was escaping it in c.c.json.write and I copied that for my pprint json disspatch func, but now I'm wondering if it's necessary
13:32	ieure	Why would you want to put HTML in a JSON-encoded string in a <script> in HTML?
13:33	ieure	replaca, I think it’s very slightly safer to escape it, but most decoders won’t _unescape_ it. Which blows.
13:34	replaca	OK, I understand the rationale at that link: a JSON string is at it's core a javascript string and javascript strings have HTML in them quite often.
13:34	replaca	But that makes me think that I don't want to escape it here.
13:36	replaca	thanks for the pointer, ieure!
13:36	ieure	No problem. I ran into it a while back when I was working with the Twitter streaming API.
13:37	ieure	It definitely doesn’t make sense for that.
13:41	cschreiner	I am looking at the clojure-src-root variable in emacs
13:42	cschreiner	how important is this for slime /et al to work correctly? It says: Directory that contains checkouts for clojure, clojure-contrib, slime, and swank-clojure. This value is used by `clojure-install' and `clojure-slime-config'.
13:42	technomancy	cschreiner: if you don't use that you can still configure slime manually
13:42	technomancy	but it's more complicated
13:42	cschreiner	ok
13:43	cschreiner	I guess there are some features I am not using in slime
13:44	technomancy	nobody uses all the features of slime. =)
13:44	lisppaste8	Anniepoo pasted "drawString" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84077
13:45	Anniepoo	this is unhappy (.drawString g #^String str xpt y)
13:45	Anniepoo	g is a graphics, drawString has an override that takes 3 args with some iterator fancy text thingy
13:46	Anniepoo	so I'm trying to type hint to tell awt that the first (java) arg is a String
13:47	Anniepoo	it's not working. Annie is sad, and feels like she should go back to making hammurabi in BASIC
13:48	Raynes	Don't be drastic!
13:48	Anniepoo	(swap! Annie #(set-drastic % false))
13:49	Anniepoo	so, what's wrong with my type hint?
13:49	Chousuke	hmm
13:50	Chousuke	looks like the method takes ints too
13:50	Chousuke	tried wrapping xpt and y in (int ..)?
13:50	Anniepoo	nope
13:50	Anniepoo	wrapping? so (int xpt) ??
13:50	Chousuke	yeah
13:50	Anniepoo	is the return of str type hinted like that?
13:51	Chousuke	hm? no, it's just telling clojure that xpt and y should be native ints and not Integers
13:51	Chousuke	though it should happen automatically :/
13:51	Chousuke	the String type hint for str should be okay.
13:52	Anniepoo	the int fixed it
13:52	Anniepoo	(.drawString g #^String str (int xpt) (int y))
13:54	cemerick	fwiw, that likely only failed because xpt or y aren't ints already (or java.lang.Integers)
13:55	Anniepoo	ah, they're the result of (/ i-am-int 2)
13:55	cemerick	right, so if i-am-int is 3, then the result of that is a Ratio, for which there isn't an obvious conversion to int
13:57	Raynes	If Rich Hickey was God, would Chris Houser be Jesus Christ?
13:57	danlarkin	wow, that is a bold statement
13:58	ataggart	quite
13:58	Raynes	I went there.
13:58	ataggart	what's the trick to submitting a ticket via assembla? My CA has been accepted, I'm logged in, I'm watching the clojure anc lojure-contrib spaces... yet I can't find any way to do it.
14:00	cemerick	ataggart: there should be a big "new ticket" button at the top of the "tickets" tab/page
14:01	ataggart	not that I see
14:01	lpetit	ataggart: have you already asked for being enabled on assembla ?
14:01	ataggart	ah I see it there in clojure, but not clojure-contrib
14:02	lpetit	ataggart: as a member of the assembla spaces ? (not just a public reader)
14:02	ataggart	I'm unclear on the distinction
14:02	ataggart	do I need to do something other than "watch this sspace"?
14:02	cemerick	ataggart: a project admin has to enable you as a contributor (or something, not sure of the terminology)
14:02	lpetit	dunno
14:03	lpetit	ataggart: if nobody here can do it, then you'll have to ask for it at clojure-dev@googlegroups.com
14:04	ataggart	ok thanks
14:08	lpetit	Is there a way to easily handle a state for a proxy instance, as is done for gen-classed instances ? Currently, I must resort to something like (let [state (atom {})] (proxy [SomeClass] (someMethod [] (... (swap! state assoc :some-key some-value))))
14:08	lpetit	?
14:10	hiredman	lpetit: looks good to me
14:12	lpetit	hiredman: well, yes, but I thought there were a possibility to have more uniformity between proxy and gen-class here. There also the problem that it's not easy to initialize the state (or call super-class methods via (proxy-super)) at construction time
14:14	Chouser	ataggart: you should be able to create tickets using the "support" tab
14:14	lpetit	I'm in a situation where I want to avoid having to use AOT compilation because I want to introduce clojure without having all my collegues having to add (yet) clojuredev to their eclipse (introducing clojure from the back door)
14:14	Chouser	lpetit: you're doing it right.
14:16	lpetit	Chouser: how would you simulate finishing initializing the proxied instance ? By just calling methods on it after having created it ? What if for terminating initialization I have to call super class methods that I then override ?
14:19	Chouser	proxy is definitely missing desirable features (newnew, come quickly) so it's possible you may not be able to do what you want.
14:19	Chouser	but yes, your instincts are sound
14:20	Chouser	a common model for using proxy is something like (defn make-foo [args] (let [some-state ...] (proxy [AClass] [args] ...)))
14:20	lpetit	chouser: ok, I'll wait then, no problem :-)
14:21	Chouser	so if you need to call some methods on the proxy instance before make-foo returns it, you can toss a doto around proxy inside the let
14:23	Chouser	if you need to call methods of the superclass that are hidden by your own overrides, you may be able to use proxy-call-with-super
14:23	Chouser	note that's not thread-safe, but should be ok in the context of make-foo
14:25	lpetit	Oh I didn't know about proxy-call-with-super, I was missing this part, thanks.
14:27	cemerick	lpetit: note that the super-method you call won't invoke any methods you've overridden in your proxy, if you happen to be extending a concrete class
14:28	hiredman	http://spanx.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/clojure-robot-on-google-wave/
14:29	lpetit	is proxy-call-with-super a post 1.0 fn ? I can't see it in the current clojure.org doc site ?
14:30	lpetit	non ok I see it in the jar
14:31	cemerick	it would be very convenient if the core values / collections in clojure were Serializable
14:31	cemerick	(I know that might get dicey in certain areas)
14:33	lpetit	cemerick: are you sure about what you say concerning the super-method that won't invoke any methods overriden in the proxy ?
14:34	Chouser	lpetit: it has no doc string. I guess you're expected to use the proxy-super macro, but that captures 'this which may not be appropriate in your case.
14:34	cemerick	pretty sure. I got burned by that recently...called super.foo(), which called bar(), overridden in my proxy. The proxy's impl never saw that call.
14:34	cemerick	maybe that's different since 1.0?
14:35	Chouser	huh, I wonder if proxy-call-with-super should use try/finally so it doesn't lose the proxy override if there's an exception.
14:35	Chouser	bleh, it's such a hack anyway...
14:35	lpetit	I read the code of proxy-call-with-super, and it's just removing the mapping for the method to make the super's method visible again, not touching other overriden methods
14:37	lpetit	chouser: yeah, it's a hack. Wondering how it would work if the method launches a work in another thread ... and the call to the super class method is done lately from the thread, that could lead to interesting bugs or infinite loops, wouldn't it ?
14:37	Chouser	yes, not thread safe.
14:38	Chouser	the behavior of that particular proxy object (not the whole class) is temporarily changed in a way that is 'visible' to all threads.
14:38	Chouser	newnew come quickly...
14:39	cemerick	agreed. It will make so much possible.
14:39	lpetit	cemerick: OK I now remember the problem. But it's not related to using proxy-call-with-super, I think ? It's the same kind of problem one has with spring AOP when not using Aspect J : if the class makes a reflexive call, no AOP injected behavior will happen
14:40	lpetit	chouser: yes, not thread safe, not resisting exception throwing, it's a can of worms right now ...
14:40	cemerick	I never had the (dis?)pleasure of using spring or aspectj. I encountered the issue when using processing, which is compiled for java 1.4 shrug
14:41	cemerick	It's entirely possible that I was doing something wrong, of course. :-)
14:46	lpetit	cemerick: I'm sorry, but I finished writing my proxy, and I have overriden some methods that are known to be called from the super class, and it works correctly.
14:47	cemerick	excellent
14:47	cemerick	just to be clear, I hit my problem when a proxy-super call would directly cause a call to an overridden method
14:47	lpetit	cemerick: ok, I didn't test that
14:52	lpetit	what is the state of this newnew operator ? Is there somewhere some doc or an early implementation ?
14:53	Chouser	lpetit: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/New_new
14:53	lpetit	thx
14:53	Chouser	no implementation that I'm aware of.
14:55	cemerick	Rich is going to blow in one morning, and say, "hey, check it out the initial newnew impl", after having said the night before that he hasn't started in on it yet. :-)
14:55	ataggart_	master of managing expectations
14:56	Chouser	not just that he hasn't started it yet, but that there's some deep internal requirement clash
14:58	Chouser	the morning's implementation will be based on a design that solves all key requirements, but looks only vaguely like the design suggested in the New_new doc
14:59	lpetit	not that it is bad, though :)
15:00	cemerick	huh, we're edging up again...
15:00	cemerick	~max
15:00	clojurebot	max people is 164
15:01	lpetit	~min
15:01	clojurebot	is_rhickey_a_minor_god is yes
15:02	lpetit	;)
15:02	Chousuke	:P
15:02	ataggart_	http://www.google.com/trends?q=clojure
15:03	cemerick	hrm. Scary amount of literal idolatry today.
15:03	ataggart_	what's up with Norway?
15:03	technomancy	one-man-search-army?
15:03	drewr	props to rhickey for a search-friendly name
15:03	technomancy	oops! sorry. =\
15:03	cemerick	ut-oh!
15:03	drewr	ouch!
15:03	cemerick	technomancy: thanks, I needed that! ;-)
15:04	drewr	scandinavia looks like one country from all the way over here
15:04	cemerick	man, and Austin is beating Boston? Lisp capital of the world? sigh
15:04	Chousuke	Technically, Finland isn't part of scandinavia either. ;P
15:04	Chousuke	but everyone forgets that.
15:04	Chousuke	even Finns
15:04	drewr	haha
15:04	ataggart_	It's part of Russia, right?
15:04	ataggart_	;)
15:05	cemerick	And Korean is the top language? Something very odd about these rankings.
15:05	danlarkin	cemerick: it's the illusive Korean Norse
15:05	cemerick	ataggart_: there lie dragons.... :-D
15:05	drewr	clojure is probably being used in nuclear projectile telemetry
15:07	Chousuke	Incidentally, the Finnish name for Norway is Norja, which also happens to be a word that means "(physically) lean" and Korea is also Finnish, means something that is well-decorated :P
15:07	cemerick	...and if you choose either Korean nation, you get no results.
15:07	Chousuke	so, of course people are searching for something lean and beautiful.
15:08	cemerick	Chousuke: yours is the land of sauna, right?
15:08	technomancy	I guess that spike was the 1.0 and book release?
15:08	Chousuke	cemerick: yeah
15:08	cemerick	that's what I thought
15:09	Chousuke	danlarkin: maybe they were the ones that did the DDoS attacks a while ago. :/
15:09	Chousuke	danlarkin: and at the same time, spammed Google with clojure searches
15:10	danlarkin	They used agents to perform the attacks :o
15:12	technomancy	http://www.evri.com/product/clojure-0x151efb <- my former employer's profile page for clojure
15:13	technomancy	they do NLP news analysis... has some interesting links
15:13	technomancy	whoa; a second book? http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-Clojure-Luke-VanderHart/dp/1430272317%3FSubscriptionId%3D1BRRVPQYSE5BWCE26RG2%26tag%3Dws%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D1430272317
15:14	cemerick	wow, neat!
15:14	technomancy	from apress... they published practical CL
15:14	cemerick	Luke VanderHart? "...a very active member of the Clojure community..."
15:14	cemerick	paging Luke?
15:15	cemerick	nm, found him on the group
15:17	technomancy	it's also going to be covered in the O'Reilly book on CL
15:19	technomancy	angerman: what's up?
15:19	lpetit	technomancy: poor laptop !
15:19	angerman	Clojure installation step failed: git clone git://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure.git
15:19	technomancy	angerman: looks like you've got an old version of clojure-mode
15:19	angerman	technomancy: that's up :/ I do have git. I guess it fails to find it ..
15:19	technomancy	time to update
15:20	angerman	technomancy: I took the one from elpa just a few secs ago
15:20	technomancy	angerman: oh.... my bad. I need to send the updated version to elpa
15:20	angerman	says v. 1.1
15:20	technomancy	get it from http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode for now.
15:20	angerman	can I simply overwrite the one elpa installed?
15:20	technomancy	sure
15:21	technomancy	thanks for the reminder; /me sends off an update
15:21	angerman	should I take the slime install from the clojure mode or the one that aquamacs wants me to install from the aquamacs website?
15:22	Anniepoo	I like evri, hope being a former of it isn't a bad thing.
15:22	technomancy	angerman: I don't know much about aquamacs... I think it's better to use the one from git.
15:22	technomancy	angerman: it's still a manual process unfortunately. =\
15:23	angerman	hhmm ..
15:23	technomancy	Anniepoo: they had to do some cutbacks a few months ago but are still afloat. =\ but I get to work in Clojure now. =)
15:23	fogus	I use clojure-mode without problems in Aquamacs
15:23	angerman	hmm feels better
15:24	angerman	fogus: dunno I had an issue with it using git .
15:24	technomancy	Aquamacs has some tricky edge-case incompatibilities, and I can't test it since it's not portable.
15:25	technomancy	but if it works for you that's great
15:25	angerman	no ... No such directory found via CDPATH environment variable
15:25	angerman	technomancy: here I am, your testcase :p
15:26	Anniepoo	@technomancy, Ah, then it's a good thing!
15:28	technomancy	angerman: can you paste the steps you took and the contents of the Messages buffer as well as any other error messages?
15:28	angerman	technomancy: it's git again
15:28	angerman	but I'll past it
15:29	technomancy	angerman: if you do M-x eshell, can you run git?
15:29	technomancy	just try git -v or something
15:29	angerman	github's so slow :/
15:29	angerman	technomancy: it only failed on slime
15:30	angerman	http://gist.github.com/153465
15:32	technomancy	angerman: that's very strange... it looks like it might be related to aquamacs hacks
15:32	technomancy	angerman: you should be able to manually check out slime in the clojure-src-root directory if you want to try again without re-downloading everything
15:33	technomancy	then put "(clojure-slime-config "/path/to/clojure-src-root/")" in your config somewhere
15:33	angerman	i'll try once more
15:34	angerman	technomancy: maybe you could split the install process into a download and a compile and rest function
15:34	angerman	that way if the download fails, one could just continue with the compilation after fixing it by hand
15:35	technomancy	not a bad idea
15:37	technomancy	I need to get it to AOT contrib too
15:39	angerman	the Error arose from the (dolist (repo clojure-last-known-good-revision) ....
15:41	technomancy	angerman: oh... I may have messed something up.
15:41	cemerick	hrm, Delay needs an isForced method or somesuch
15:42	angerman	whee, now I a working slime
15:42	technomancy	I did a shallow copy of slime so it wouldn't take forever, but that may have missed the last-known-good revision for swank-clojure
15:42	angerman	technomancy: well if reporting bugs helps, whee :)
15:42	technomancy	genius
15:42	angerman	technomancy: well wait
15:42	angerman	technomancy: I did just install git clone --depth 2 ... slime
15:42	angerman	and then commented everyting out of clojure-mode till the compilation step and rand clojure-install again
15:43	angerman	now it works
15:43	angerman	dunno about swank so ... how would I test?
15:43	technomancy	just do M-x slime
15:44	angerman	does work.
15:44	technomancy	wonder if there's a way to make a shallow clone in git starting from a given revision...
15:45	technomancy	I guess I could just make my own fork and only update it when I've tested it with swank.
15:45	technomancy	that sounds easier
15:46	angerman	technomancy: well as I said that CDPATH issue came from the (dolist (repo ... )) part between the git clones and the compiling
15:47	angerman	how would I add additional jars?
15:47	angerman	e.g. if I want to use compojure, ...
15:47	technomancy	angerman: check out the clojure-project function in http://technomancy.us/126#projects
15:49	angerman	technomancy: so I bacaislly unpack the .jars into the dependency folder
15:49	technomancy	right; then the clojure-project function will set up slime's classpath for you
15:50	angerman	technomancy: couldn't it just use the jars?
15:54	angerman	technomancy: I hope my questions don't bug you too much
15:55	Raynes	We all enjoy annoying questions. Annoying questions are typically trivial ones, and therefore easy to answer.
15:57	ataggart	the eclipse plugin serves me well. Rainbow parens ftw.
16:15	technomancy	angerman: you can use the jars, but I've found unpacking them has its advantages
16:15	angerman	technomancy: tell me about them :)
16:16	technomancy	well mostly that you can add deps at runtime without restarting the JVM
16:16	angerman	ohh and how would I define JNI bindings? -Djava.library.path
16:16	technomancy	also, your classpath can be the same for every project you work on, which is less confusing
16:16	technomancy	I... don't know what JNI is.
16:16	technomancy	questions are fine as long as you're OK with a slow response. =)
16:17	angerman	well for example if I want to use Tokyo Cabinet. I need to have some native code libary
16:17	angerman	so that's why I need to define a -Djava.librar.path=...
16:17	technomancy	oh, if you just want to set a command-line flag, you can add it to the swank-clojure-extra-vm-args list
16:18	angerman	technomancy: so basically I add all the jars into the dep folder and run clojure-project ? and the swank-clojure-jar-path does automatically list them all up?
16:19	technomancy	angerman: I think you can do that, but I haven't used that myself
16:19	angerman	technomancy: could we have a clojure-create-project fun too? that sets up the project folders?
16:20	technomancy	sure; that's not a bad idea.
16:22	technomancy	angerman: you can use a .dir-locals.el file for project-wide elisp variables if you're using 23
16:22	angerman	as the project structure might be different, e.g. for a deployment
16:22	angerman	technomancy: hmm. well src target/classes and test are hardcoded in clojure-project or am I mistaken?
16:23	technomancy	angerman: that's right. but clojure-project is just my own personal helper function, it's not part of clojure-mode or anything
16:23	angerman	technomancy: yes. but why not turn it into one :)
16:24	technomancy	I should.
16:25	technomancy	I've been using target/ because that's what corkscrew uses (mvn under the covers).
16:25	technomancy	but it doesn't seem to be a common convention
16:26	technomancy	probably not, it's an awful lot of impl-specific code
16:28	angerman	hmm...
16:28	angerman	can I somehow attach SLIME to an already running process somehow?
16:29	technomancy	angerman: it's doable, but I haven't done it myself.
16:37	angerman	technomancy: so to get the REPL i need to use swank.loader?
16:37	angerman	at least, that's the way I understand it :/
16:38	drewr	angerman: currently only via emacs
16:38	drewr	at least I haven't success embedding swank
16:38	drewr	haven't had
16:38	technomancy	others have done it
16:39	angerman	ok, but it works like this: run swank in clojure to open a port and then connect to that with slime?
16:39	technomancy	I asked them to post to the list about it, but haven't heard back yet.
16:39	drewr	angerman: yes
16:39	angerman	ok, that could get messy with GAE as the environment permits to open a socket .
16:41	Chouser	(some #(when-not (second %) (first %)) (partition 2 1 (map deref (map deref (map #(send-off (agent (promise)) deliver %) (iterate inc 0))))))
16:41	Chouser	I don't think that should ever return. But for me it does.
16:44	Chouser	(some (fn [[a b]] (when-not a b)) (partition 2 1 (map (fn [x] @@(send-off (agent (promise)) deliver x)) (iterate inc 0))))
16:44	hiredman	github is sloooooow today
16:44	Chouser	same thing, just simplified the expression.
16:44	Chouser	what number does that return for you, or does it spin forever (as I think it should)?
16:46	hiredman	jokes on you, my local clojure install is so old the result is java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: promise in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
16:46	Chouser	:-)
16:49	Chouser	ah, I think I see it.
16:49	rhickey	1
16:49	Chouser	(.await d) may unblock before (reset! v x)
16:52	Chouser	reversing the order of (reset! v x) and (.countDown d) seems to solve it
16:53	Chouser	at least, my test runs into the 10000s instead of always failing < 6000
16:54	Chouser	rhickey: you want the whole ticket/patch dance for that?
16:54	rhickey	nope
16:54	angerman	hmm I can't compile clojure-contrib it's missing clojure/walk :/
16:54	Chouser	rhickey: cool
16:55	rhickey	glad someone's trying some of this stuff
16:55	rhickey	:)
16:55	Chouser	that's no made up test, either.
16:55	Chousuke	angerman: contrib master depends on git clojure at the moment. there's a branch that is still compatible with 1.0.0 though.
16:55	rhickey	Chouser: all the better
16:56	Chouser	well, wheat I posted was, but I was seeing nil's in impossible places in code we're actually using
16:56	angerman	Chousuke: hmm I think i took both git repos
16:56	Chouser	what
16:57	Chousuke	angerman: hmm. from the right source? :P
16:57	hiredman	whoops
16:57	angerman	Chousuke: the ones that clojure-install pulled
16:58	technomancy	angerman: I'll update clojure-install to mention the 1.0-compatible branch too
16:58	technomancy	it didn't exist when I wrote the last-known-good stuff
16:58	angerman	The way I understood Chousuke would be that if i take both from git it should still work
16:59	technomancy	angerman: yes, but clojure-install uses clojure 1.0.0 by default
16:59	Chouser	I'm just not doing anything that would push ensure or take advantage of par.
16:59	Chousuke	angerman: well, clojure-install may checkout some branch other than master
16:59	technomancy	angerman: you can run "git checkout master" in the clojure dir if you'd rather stay with the cutting-edge
16:59	technomancy	maybe I could make it an option in clojure-install
17:00	angerman	hmm.
17:02	technomancy	angerman: it's in the "last-known-good" section
17:03	angerman	yes, but that's what I commented out because it broke with the CDPATH thing.
17:04	angerman	ok, the checkout when through somehow
17:17	blbrown_win	in terms of clojure performance, aren't most functions and use of clojure really just calls on top of the JVM. So, for most code we should see comparable performance with Java code. ...is that safe to say?
17:20	Chousuke	well, java code that uses function objects, lazy seqs and immutable collections, yes :)
17:22	blbrown_win	So it really depends on the approach you use with Clojure. There isn't going to be a one to one, Clojure code runs as fast as Java code (say if they end up at the same outcome)
17:23	blbrown_win	Chousuke, that was directed at you
17:23	Chousuke	hmm.
17:23	Chousuke	well, you can write loops that compile down to the same bytecode as a java loop
17:24	blbrown_win	Chouser, sounds like the response is that "it depends"
17:24	Chousuke	but most clojure code tends to be rather different from idiomatic java code.
17:24	Chousuke	with higher-order functions and all.
17:25	Chouser	Chousuke: I wonder how often I get unspoken credit for things you say...
17:25	Chousuke	Chouser: heh :P
17:25	blbrown_win	I thought you guys were the same for a second
17:25	Chouser	Chousuke: how'd you end up with that nick anyway. Your g.group name is nice and unique...
17:26	blbrown_win	Like they always say, "don't guess, measure". I was writing some performance test code. Of course, my tests will get a lot of flack...performance tests always do
17:26	Chousuke	Chouser: I was given this nickname :P
17:27	Chousuke	blbrown_win: heh.
17:27	stuartsierra	Just remember to use warn-on-reflection true, that makes a huge difference.
17:27	Chousuke	blbrown_win: rhickey posted some interesting microbenchmarks from his "par" branch yesterday :)
17:28	blbrown_win	stuartsierra, Yea I see that a lot. Most of my code will not use Java oriented code though.
17:28	Chousuke	blbrown_win: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84027
17:29	blbrown_win	is clojure.par ...parallel?
17:29	Chousuke	of course, it's only that much faster because it utilises four cores instead of one, but...
17:29	Chousuke	yeah.
17:29	blbrown_win	isn't that jvm specific stuff
17:30	Chousuke	well, the library uses forkjoin apparently, which is something that will appear in JDK7
17:31	Chouser	I think it's running into trouble in that process.
17:31	blbrown_win	yea, that is what I am kind of saying. Some clojure code is kind of a wrapper on top of JVM functionality.
17:31	Chousuke	blbrown_win: the parallel vector stuff isn't though.
17:31	Chousuke	blbrown_win: it works with clojure vectors.
17:31	blbrown_win	ah
17:32	Chousuke	I don't seem to get much improvement from clojure.par though :/
17:33	Chousuke	it does help a bit, and is indeed faster than the (mutable!) arraylist, but I suspect my RAM might be a bottleneck
17:35	rhickey	Chouser: where did you see/hear that?
17:35	Chouser	rhickey: I thought you said that.
17:35	Chousuke	And then I get really inconsistent results if I enable escape analysis: anywhere from 50ms to 1200ms for the last parallel vector operation. :P
17:36	Chouser	ah, maybe ParallelArray is the only casualty so far?
17:37	rhickey	Chouser: right, afaik, the division into jsr166y and extra166y reflects what's in/out of JDK 7
17:37	angerman	rhickey: did you get a sore throught thoughout the clojure presentations?
17:38	rhickey	angerman: which presentations?
17:38	angerman	Clojure for Java.
17:39	angerman	rhickey: just wondering. Because you really talk a lot.
17:39	rhickey	I see
17:43	blbrown_win	angerman, are you in industry now?
17:44	angerman	blbrown_win: I'm in my final year doing my (German Diplom) in Mathematics at Technical University of Munich
17:44	blbrown_win	nice
17:45	angerman	instead of studing I'm once again exploring a new language [...] :)
17:45	kotarak	sounds familiar ;)
17:46	angerman	if only clojure would be dead fast for linear algebra, I could try some of my classification algorithms ...
17:46	angerman	kotarak: since when? ;)
17:46	kotarak	5 years
17:47	Chouser	JNI's still kicking me around.
17:47	angerman	well that's close to when I started.
17:47	angerman	Chouser: I had my share with Tokyo Cabinet ... never had so much trouble compiling any source :/
17:48	Chouser	everything appears to compile, and the .so loads. but I still can call into the native code.
17:49	angerman	Chouser: ohh. Well TC had it's java bindings already, but compiling the JNI libs against TC was really messy. Especially figuring out that I needed x86_64 binaries and the configure didn't figure that out :/
17:50	angerman	appengine-clj does have a datastore layer but that one is somewhat verbose and not really "nice"
17:50	kotarak	angerman: would have been the first configure script which figured something out... :/
17:51	angerman	kotarak: yea. this whole autoconf stuff keeps on being the biggest mess ever
18:03	angerman	good night everyone. The Clojure for Lisp Programmers and Clojure for Java Programmers presentations are quite good :)
18:11	Chouser	aaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!
18:12	hiredman	someone kick your football?
18:12	Chouser	had an old .so under an old name. That's the one I was loading and testing.
18:12	Chouser	had a new .so under a new name. That's one I was changing and compiling. :-(
18:13	Chousuke	:\|
18:14	Chouser	ok. sheesh. well, now it works from java but not clojure.
18:19	Chouser	dinnertime...
18:19	stuartsierra	later dudes
19:19	blbrown_win	with clojure contrib how do you use the group-by function
19:19	blbrown_win	(group-by 3 (1 2 3))
19:19	blbrown_win	'(group-by 3 (1 2 3))
19:19	hiredman	,(doc group-by)
19:19	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a sorted map of the elements of coll keyed by the result of f on each element. The value at each key will be a vector of the corresponding elements, in the order they appeared in coll."
19:20	blbrown_win	I see the doc,
19:20	blbrown_win	oh
19:20	hiredman	you most likely want partition
19:20	hiredman	or partition-by
19:20	blbrown_win	,(group-by (fn [x] true) (1 2 3 ))
19:20	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
19:24	blbrown_win	,(group-by (comp #(.toString %) class) [1 2 "three" :four])
19:24	clojurebot	{"class clojure.lang.Keyword" [:four], "class java.lang.Integer" [1 2], "class java.lang.String" ["three"]}
19:28	blbrown_win	interesting
19:30	Raynes	I wish Factor had GTK bindings. :\
19:36	blbrown_win	you can write them. the FFI is pretty easy
19:37	Raynes	blbrown_win: I don't wanna. :p
19:37	blbrown_win	Raynes are you a factor guy (user). I was thinking of writing benchmarks and comparing the factor benchmarks to clojure hhmm
19:42	blbrown_win	,(loop [a () i 1e2] (if (= i 0) a (recur (conj a "a") (- i 1))))
19:42	clojurebot	("a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a" "a")
19:45	Raynes	blbrown_win: I'm kind of new to Factor. I'm not really a /Factor/ guy.
19:45	blbrown_win	I wrote the mysql driver, hehe long time agop
19:55	technomancy	has anyone encountered the geostd8 encoding before?
19:56	fsm	A cleaned-up version of my raytracer: http://tu.be/graphics/tracer.zip
19:56	fsm	Fixed bug in depth-of-field calculations
19:57	technomancy	not finding any way of handing that in Java
19:57	technomancy	it's pretty obscure
19:57	beutdeuce	is apply similar to haskell's map or fold?
20:03	mebaran151	georgian encoding?
20:04	technomancy	mebaran151: yeah
20:04	mebaran151	that is a bit obscure....
20:08	mebaran151	looks like it's a standard 8 bit encoding: what do you have to do with it?
20:16	technomancy	mebaran151: reading it without an exception would be a good start. =)
20:18	beutdeuce	whats wrong with this => http://gist.github.com/153755
20:20	beutdeuce	actually this =. http://pastie.org/557150
20:28	fsm	I posted some sample images: http://tu.be/graphics/
20:29	technomancy	fsm: looks nice!
20:29	fsm	Thanks
20:29	blbrown_win	,(doc immigrate)
20:29	clojurebot	"/;nil; "
21:54	rabidsnail	hello all
21:56	JAS415	i have a question about classpath
21:56	Raynes	Shoot.
21:56	JAS415	i have my bash script setup like so: java -cp $CLOJURE_DIR/jline-0.9.94.jar:$CLOJURE_JAR:$CONTRIB_JAR \
21:56	JAS415	jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.lang.Repl
21:56	JAS415	with the environment variables set to the various paths
21:57	JAS415	yet when i execute the script and do (for example) (in-ns clojure.contrib.math)
21:57	JAS415	i get "ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.math"
21:58	arohner	quote it
21:58	arohner	(in-ns 'clojure.contrib.math)
21:58	JAS415	ahhh
21:58	JAS415	thanks :-)
21:59	arohner	np. without the quote, clojure tries to get the value of the symbol clojure.contrib.math
22:00	arohner	i.e. (let [x (symbol "clojure.contrib.math")] (in-ns x))
22:01	rabidsnail	What's the proper way to do an sequence slice?
22:04	JAS415	i'm still not sure i've got this right with the loading of the contrib though
22:04	arohner	rabidsnail: what do you mean?
22:04	JAS415	shouldn't all of the contrib ns be loaded?
22:04	rabidsnail	The equivalent of my_array[5:10] in Python.
22:04	JAS415	so when i do (all-ns) from use it would return them?
22:05	rabidsnail	Take a range of elements from a sequence between two indices.
22:05	arohner	JAS415: no, the individual contrib ns's will be loaded after calls to require
22:05	arohner	and there's no require clojure.contrib.*
22:05	JAS415	ah okay
22:06	JAS415	i'm gonna write this stuff down or else i'll forget
22:07	arohner	rabidsnail: if you have a vector, you can use subvec
22:07	arohner	,(doc subvec)
22:07	clojurebot	"([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
22:07	arohner	if you have something else, i.e. a list or a map, I think you'll have to use drop and take