#clojure – 2009-06-12

2009-06-12

00:00	polarbizzler	that will do the trick thanks
00:00	polarbizzler	i was searching for some examples like on that link forever
00:44	Drakeson	what is the inverse of interleave?
00:46	Chouser__	take-nth
00:46	Chouser__	or partition with destructuring
00:54	Drakeson	thanks
01:17	dufflebunk	I'm looking at the online api docs for if-let, "(if-let bindings then)" and then it says "If test is true, ..." but there's no "test" in the syntax... just "bindings" and "then".
01:17	dufflebunk	Should it be (if-let test bindings then) ?
01:17	dnolen	the binding is the test
01:18	dnolen	,(if-let [x nil] true false)
01:18	clojurebot	false
01:18	dnolen	,(if-let [x 1] true false)
01:18	clojurebot	true
01:18	dufflebunk	Ah, ok
01:19	dufflebunk	thanks
01:19	dnolen	np
01:21	dufflebunk	so that's what the "binding-form test" part meant.
02:53	cgrand	eleftherios: I'm here
03:09	eevar2	yay, clojure on github
03:12	opqdonut	proxy can't define new methods?
03:12	hiredman	nope
03:15	opqdonut	why :/
03:16	hiredman	use gen-interface + proxy
03:18	opqdonut	gah, i'll just return a map of functions
03:19	frodef	is there no way to get cond with implicit progns?
03:19	frodef	I mean, how do I do multiple exprs in a cond clause?
03:19	hiredman	you mean do
03:20	hiredman	and no
03:20	frodef	jhiredman: progn is "do" in clojure?
03:20	hiredman	you coud just a multimethod instead
03:20	hiredman	use a
03:20	hiredman	frodef: I think so
03:21	hiredman	never used progn or whatever language it is from
03:21	frodef	right, it's the same.
03:21	frodef	thanks.
04:45	frodef	I'm trying to write a swing viewer for my model. What's the good way to keep the model state?
04:46	jdz_	a ref?
04:46	frodef	can/should I do like the java-people and create a class that keeps its state in members?
04:46	jdz_	or an atom?
04:46	jdz_	a map (or struct-map) then?
04:47	frodef	jdz: ok, I'll look at those. thanks.
04:48	jdz	maybe you want a map in a ref/atom
05:18	Chousuke	frodef: usually you'll want something immutable wrapped in a reference type.
05:18	Chousuke	a single ref wrapping a map if usually a good starting point
05:26	opqdonut	what could cause clojure.lang.Compiler.LOADER to be unbound?
05:27	opqdonut	guess I should be creating my own DynamicLoader
05:29	opqdonut	that did the trick
06:57	opqdonut	is there an easy way to access class members by string names
06:58	mccraig	u want to access a field or call a method ?
06:58	mccraig	of an instance of a java class ?
07:00	mccraig	opqdonut: http://gist.github.com/128577
07:00	opqdonut	field
07:00	opqdonut	of an instance
07:00	mccraig	shows how u can access a field, even a private one
07:00	mccraig	taking the example of an Agent's state
07:00	opqdonut	heh, terrible
07:01	frodef	maps are immutable also, right?
07:01	mccraig	'course, the SecurityManager has to be configured lax to permit access to private fields
07:02	jdz	frodef: yes
07:03	opqdonut	well i don't need private fields :)
07:03	mccraig	skip the setAccessible call then, and ur away
07:04	eevar2__	,(doc bean)
07:04	clojurebot	"([x]); Takes a Java object and returns a read-only implementation of the map abstraction based upon its JavaBean properties."
07:04	eevar2__	^^ opqdonut
07:05	opqdonut	mccraig: yah
07:05	opqdonut	eevar2__: ?
07:07	eevar2__	may or may not do what you need ;)
07:07	opqdonut	well, it does not
07:07	opqdonut	mccraig: http://paste.lisp.org/display/81759
07:07	mccraig	eevar2__: JavaBean properties only include fields which have a corresponding java get...() method
07:08	eevar2__	hmm.. and i see he asked for class members, guess bean may not be appropriate for that
07:19	mccraig	opqdonut: does set! not work for u, since it's public fields ?
07:41	opqdonut	mccraig: i need to set! by string name
07:41	opqdonut	but gtg ->
07:55	adityo	newbie question: how do i read from standard input?
07:57	achim	adityo: read-line, for example
07:58	adityo	achim: thanks
07:58	achim	adityo: in is the standard input, a java Reader, you can call java methods on it if you need anything special
07:58	frodef	any hints on how to best do an event queue between two threads?
08:02	cemerick	frodef: easiest way is to put a persistent queue in a ref, and access it from your threads inside transactions
08:03	frodef	cemerick: can I do a blocking read that way?
08:03	Chouser	frodef: I'd look at java.util.concurrent.BlockingQueue
08:06	adityo	achim: cool
08:10	Chousuke	http://www.making-the-web.com/misc/sites-you-visit/nojs/ :/
08:12	Chousuke	Apparently, it's possible to for a site to sniff your history by abusing CSS and iframes. I wonder if that's even fixable
08:22	asbjxrn	I'd call it guess, and not sniff.
08:23	asbjxrn	Since it relies on showing a link and detecing if the browser displays it as visited or not.
08:23	asbjxrn	But still..
09:48	cemerick	is the github repo now "official"? I see people tweeting about it, but haven't seen an announcement from rhickey
09:48	Chouser	cemerick: I haven't seen an announcement either.
09:49	Chouser	It's not clear to me yet if github or assembla will host the official primary repo.
09:50	cemerick	I thought the decision was to use github for the SCM, tools on assembla, but yeah, it's unclear.
09:50	cemerick	There's a lot of watchers on the github repo already. Word travels fast. :-)
09:50	Chouser	:-)
09:50	Chousuke	it doesn't really matter who hosts the main repo anyway ;P
09:51	cemerick	yeah, same here
09:51	Chousuke	you can just clone it to your favourite git service anyway
09:51	duck1123	is there a fn to convert '(:a "a" :b "b" :c "c") to {:a "a" :b "b" :c "c"}
09:51	Chouser	Chousuke: depends on how much lag time you're willing to accept between a rhickey push and your own pull.
09:51	Chousuke	duck1123: apply hash-map
09:51	Chousuke	Chouser: well, yeah
09:52	Chousuke	github is a bit slow sometimes :/
09:52	Chousuke	but faster than SVN at google code :P
09:52	cemerick	well, a different clone from svn would have different sha1s, so that could get tricky if you start basing on a repo that isn't blessed.
09:53	Chouser	Chousuke: no, my point is if rhickey pushes to assembla, I'm not willing to always wait for a nightly poll that transfers it to github. Or whatever. I want my local copy to poll from where he pushes.
09:54	Chouser	In fact, if I could pull directly from his working copy, that'd be neat. :-)
09:54	Chousuke	Chouser: right.
09:54	Chousuke	heh
09:54	Chousuke	Chouser: I think assembla+git works so that github actually does the hosting and assembla just provides some tools on top of that.
09:55	rys	I think that's what most people are looking for at the end of the day (to be able to clone rhickey's repo directly and pull from it, so there's no indirection)
09:55	Chousuke	git can have multiple remotes, so you could pull from several places.
09:56	Chouser	"I don’t think it would be wise to use github mode and integrated git together, even if they allow it."
09:56	Chouser	I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I'm willing to wait for final conclusions/announcements.
09:56	Chousuke	I could have my own public clojure-fork on gitorious or something and then people could have a mainline remote and a chousuke-public remote if they're interested :P
09:56	rhickey	I've decided not to use assembla's built-int git, but to have it point to github
09:57	Chouser	ah, so no mirroring
09:57	rhickey	I'm actively working out the detils, just got IntelliJ all happy with the github version of Clojure
09:58	rhickey	Chouser: right, assembla doesn't like to have 2 vcs options enabled, go I'm going with the github support
09:58	walters	i wonder if google is still paying some guy to try to make svn better
09:59	Chousuke	rhickey: is your git repo already public on github?
09:59	rys	I _think_ they're directly working on git (TortoiseGit in particular), if memory serves, so I'd bet on seeing git support at googlecode at some point
10:00	Chouser	Chousuke: people are twittering about it.
10:00	rhickey	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree
10:00	rhickey	no pushes yet
10:00	Chousuke	github's search didn't find that. :/
10:01	Chousuke	is clojure-contrib going to move too if this is successful?
10:02	rhickey	Chousuke: yes
10:02	Chousuke	great.
10:02	rhickey	still working out how to organize it - seems like a good time to make the ports (ClojureCLR and ClojureScript) stand alone
10:03	rhickey	I've come to really dislike gcode's issue system, but need to find a way to port issues over to assembla
10:04	Chousuke	git has submodule support so you could have the contrib master repo contain those, but perhaps it's not worth the added complexity
10:04	Chousuke	I still don't know how to use git submodules very well :/
10:04	Chousuke	easier to just clone things separately
10:04	duck1123	they should be moved to clojure-extras or something IMO
10:04	Chouser	I doubt it'd be worth anything like that. Java's classpath allows sufficient namespace integration.
10:04	Chousuke	but, heh, I just cloned your repo. took about 5 seconds. :P
10:05	Chouser	I'll be happy for clojurescript to have less visibility. :-P
10:06	rhickey	I could use help devising and implementing plans for all of this, now that I think I know where we are going
10:06	duck1123	is it usable yet? It looked interesting, but I couldn't figure out how to use it. (not that I really tried)
10:07	Chousuke	rhickey: do you think there's any way to automate moving issues to assembla? :/
10:07	Chouser	duck1123: it's pretty out of date now. It was in decent shape, nearly usable before the "lazier" changes, but I haven't kept it synced.
10:08	Chouser	duck1123: I'm not really interested it putting much more effort into it at least until clojure-in-clojure.
10:08	rhickey	Chousuke: there is this on the assembla side: https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/breakoutdocs/Ticket_REST_API
10:08	adityo	quit/
10:08	duck1123	Chouser: I had to write some JQuery recently, and I kept wanting to write in clojure
10:08	Chouser	duck1123: :-)
10:09	rhickey	google is notoriously bad about data export
10:10	Chousuke	rhickey: hmm, right.
10:11	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=1689
10:12	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=148
10:15	Chouser	"we are actively working on this right now" (50 minutes ago) -- nice
10:37	Drakeson	do we have a function similar to this: (defn de-interleave [n coll] (map #(take-nth n %) (take n (iterate next coll)))) ?
10:37	Drakeson	e.g. (de-interleave 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6]) -> ((1 3 5) (2 4 6))
10:42	cgrand	,(apply map vector (partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6]))
10:42	clojurebot	([1 3 5] [2 4 6])
10:43	cgrand	(not lazy)
10:47	Drakeson	Is there a lazy version of (apply map vector coll) ? I would call it transpose.
10:47	Drakeson	(transpose [[1 2 3][4 5 6][7 8 9]]) -> [[1 4 7][2 5 8][3 6 9]]
10:52	duck1123	Does anyone know of any good search engine like sites (other than google) where I can input a class and get the javadoc for it? Preferably with a search plugin.
10:54	Drakeson	I would appreciate an interface to such in slime (via C-c I)
10:56	duck1123	I have an javadoc emacs plugin, but I never use it much
10:56	duck1123	I had to add all the javadoc sources, and it was kinda buggy
11:00	cemerick	duck1123: yahoo used to have a great javadoc search feature, though they pulled it last wee (don't know why)
11:00	duck1123	I found javadoconline.com, but I'm not sure if I really care for it yet
11:01	cemerick	I'd love to have something like http://clj-doc.s3.amazonaws.com/tmp/doc-1116/index.html for javadoc
11:06	hiredman	~jdoc String
11:06	hiredman	http://www.docjar.com/ has decent javadoc coverage
11:08	duck1123	hiredman: thanks, I'll give that one a try
11:14	j-dot	duck1123: if you have the Google Toolbar installed, there is a custom search button here: http://www.javac.info/jdk_search.xml
11:16	duck1123	j-dot: I don't. I use the firefox omnisearch plugin. (makes the address bar behave like chrome)
11:17	j-dot	cool, for anyone else who's interested, the write-up and link to install it is here: http://gafter.blogspot.com/2009/03/jdk-api-search-in-google-toolbar.html
11:19	duck1123	i think i just need to start using the emacs plugin i had again
11:43	Chousuke	I think Mark Volkmann's clojure article should perhaps be featured on clojure.org. It seems great for people looking for an introduction into Clojure.
11:44	Chousuke	Appears to be much better organised and up to date than the wiki pages :P
11:48	drewr	duck1123: The Clojure Search does a pretty good job: http://is.gd/ZUZ8/BufferedReader
11:49	hiredman	it would be neat if github did pubsub so I could just have clojurebot subscribe
11:50	duck1123	hiredman: agreed
11:50	hiredman	of course then I would need to figure out pubsub
11:50	duck1123	is clojurebot on xmpp yet?
11:50	hiredman	nope
11:51	duck1123	I've been meaning to work on a clojure library for igniterealtime's xmpp library when I get around to it
11:52	hiredman	I've started a few times
11:53	duck1123	is anyone else here currently using clj-record?
11:54	duck1123	currently, (get-record 7) throws an exception if that id doesn't exist. Personally, I think it should return nil. Any opinions?
11:55	cp2	hrm
11:55	cp2	well, it depends on how you are using it i suppose
11:56	cp2	'nil' could be a perfectly legal value in your application
11:56	duck1123	the record will always be a map though
11:56	duck1123	so in this case nil is an illegal value
11:57	cp2	yeah, then in that case
11:57	cp2	i would prefer it returning nil
11:57	cp2	because you can just do (if-let [record (get-record 7)] ...
11:58	duck1123	that's exactly how i've been using it in my fork
12:02	hiredman	ugh
12:03	hiredman	git shas are not as nice as svn revisions
12:03	Chousuke	heh :P
12:04	hiredman	~latest
12:04	clojurebot	latest is 1382
12:05	Chousuke	revision numbers only make sense locally to a branch. In that respect, hg does it right.
12:05	hiredman	how is that even going to work?
12:05	hiredman	just hold the date of the last check in?
12:05	Chouser	hiredman: ooh, I like that idea
12:05	Chousuke	or the commit message.
12:07	duck1123	first line only
12:08	Chouser	commit message is the "normal" git way I think, but when we have a single official repo, timestamp would give a nice sense of whether you're up to date or not
12:08	Chousuke	the problem is, when doing commits, git actually records the date.
12:09	Chousuke	but that's no guarantee of when the commit will appear in the mainline
12:09	Chousuke	you could have it in the private repo for half a year, and then when you finally merge, you will have half-year-old commits at the top of the log :)
12:09	Chouser	wouldn't the merge get a new timestamp?
12:10	Chousuke	the merge commit does but the actual commits being merged are separate.
12:11	Chousuke	I can't remember whether the merge commit ends up at the "top" or not :/
12:11	Chousuke	hmm, seems like it does.
12:12	hiredman	I get two dates from the github api
12:12	hiredman	:committed_date and authored_date
12:12	Chousuke	maybe committed_date means "pushed_date" instead :/
12:15	hiredman	ugh
12:16	hiredman	the dates from github have a single colon in the timezone specifier that prevents SimpleDateFormat from parsing them
12:18	duck1123	I wish SimpleDateFormat could work with xsd:dateTime
12:19	duck1123	it's so annoying to have to write custom code for that. (or use jodatime)
12:19	hiredman	(.replaceAll datestring "([+-])(\\d\\d):(\\d\\d)" "$1$2$3")
12:20	hiredman	so horrible
12:22	doug_	Is there an easy way of making a hash-set from a coll? I resorted to this: (defn hash-set-from [coll] (reduce #(conj %1 (keyword %2)) (hash-set) coll))
12:23	hiredman	there are several
12:23	hiredman	,(apply hash-set '(1 2 3))
12:23	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
12:24	hiredman	,(into (hash-set) '(1 2 3))
12:24	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
12:24	dnolen	,(set [1 2 3 4 5])
12:24	clojurebot	#{1 2 3 4 5}
12:24	hiredman	,(class {})
12:24	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
12:24	hiredman	,(class #{})
12:24	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
12:24	dnolen	set takes a collection and produces a hash-set
12:25	doug_	thanks very much for hash-set tips.
12:27	Chousuke	hmm.
12:30	Chousuke	,(apply hash-set [1 2 3 4 5])
12:30	clojurebot	#{1 2 3 4 5}
12:30	Chousuke	:)
12:30	Chousuke	oh, it was up there.
12:31	Chousuke	missed it ;/
12:40	duck1123	is there a version of find-doc that just returns the symbols?
12:41	duck1123	I can often figure out what I'm looking for just by seeing the name
12:43	Chousuke	duck1123: unfortunately not :/
12:46	marklar	lisppaste8: paste?
12:46	marklar	clojurebot: paste?
12:46	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
12:46	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
12:46	lisppaste8	marklar pasted "Show-doc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81772
12:47	marklar	duck1123: not exactly what you were looking for, but it may help. Wish I could remember who wrote it
12:47	marklar	thickey: Thanks again :)
12:47	thickey	np :)
12:49	duck1123	that actually looks more useful than what I was asking for
12:49	stuartsierra	Android Scripting Environment! http://tinyurl.com/ku2gj5
12:49	thickey	does anyone know more about the Clojure Object Explorer that was shown at the Bay Area Clojure Meetup?
12:49	marklar	stuartsierra: whoa, thats cool
12:51	technomancy	thickey: that'd be replaca's project
12:52	technomancy	thickey: http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/clj-explorer/tree/master
12:52	thickey	technomancy: thanks
13:26	replaca	thickey: yeah, I know a little about it :-)
13:27	replaca	thickey: anything I can tell you besides the pointer technomancy sent you? It's still very young.
13:28	thickey	replaca: i don't have any questions at the moment. i just wanted to see it in action
13:29	cp2	shutup.lua
13:29	cp2	hehe
13:30	replaca	thickey: cool. You can just grab it and play. But there's no doc yet
13:31	replaca	the interesting things are that you can click on the text and it expands or contracts stuff
13:31	replaca	and you can change the pretty print dispatch function so that you can have it operate on XML, json or what ever
13:32	thickey	replaca: cool stuff. thanks
13:32	replaca	thickey: enjoy, and keep an eye on it cause I'll be making it "more real" as we go along
13:49	rhickey	name solicitation time again: single-assignment, block until available dataflow variables create with ___, assign with ___, deref with deref/@
13:50	rhickey	dataflow, flow, flow1, ivar
13:56	cemerick	a little more context is probably necessary :-)
13:57	cemerick	is this being bolted into refs, or is it something else entirely?
13:58	Chouser	this isn't future?
13:58	Chouser	more like a single-item BlockingQueue?
13:59	rhickey	it's a lot like an Oz dataflow var, without any unification bits. It's like a future but the source isn't determined at creation time - someone must come along and write to it, any readers arriving prior to that will block, all release with value once written, subsequent readers will always see that value, subsequent write throws
13:59	hiredman	ooo
14:00	rhickey	so, not like a queue in that there are multiple readers of the one value
14:00	Chouser	oh, multiple readers for a single value ... right.
14:00	cemerick	hrm, interesting.
14:01	hiredman	worm
14:01	cemerick	personally, I'd keep away from the flow-related names, which generally are associated with cells impls and constraint propagation in general (in my experience)
14:01	Chouser	future could be built on it
14:01	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write_Once_Read_Many
14:03	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "flows" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81776
14:03	Chouser	(let [x (dam)] (release! x 5))
14:03	rhickey	cemerick: right, I'm not happy with flow and dataflow, people use them for very different things
14:05	rhickey	was ivar in Haskell
14:05	rhickey	IVar
14:06	rhickey	but var already has implications
14:06	Chouser	it's a blocking bucket
14:07	rhickey	how appealing
14:07	Chouser	hehe
14:07	Chouser	a cork
14:08	Chouser	hey, I implemented this using a wather
14:08	Chouser	watcher
14:09	Chouser	on an IRef. ...an atom in my case.
14:09	rhickey	what prevented subsequent assignment?
14:10	cemerick	gap? e.g. once filled, hard (impossible) to fill again
14:10	Chouser	hm, I guess more accurately I could have used this. Instead I wrote await-iref
14:10	rhickey	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_and_promises
14:11	rhickey	according to that, 'promise' fits
14:12	Chouser	http://paste.lisp.org/display/81237#2 -- await-iref
14:12	cemerick	rhickey: of course, scheme's promises are clojure's delays
14:13	rhickey	right, it's a mess
14:13	rhickey	same thing called promise, ivar, dataflow var
14:13	cemerick	the latter are nearly meaningless to me :-)
14:13	cemerick	latter two...
14:14	Chouser	and just as bad, promise and var mean other things in other places
14:14	rhickey	but promise was a bad name for what Clojure calls delay, IMO, and fits this well
14:15	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #81237 "flow/promise" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81237#3
14:15	Chouser	interesting that it's got a constructor that creates a new identity, but takes no args.
14:16	rhickey	thus the promise notion
14:16	rhickey	someone else is going to complete the construction
14:17	dnolen	curious are there particularly good use cases for dataflow vars, never used anything like them before.
14:17	Chouser	what does the I in Haskell's IVar stand for?
14:17	rhickey	immutable
14:17	Chouser	ahhh
14:18	rhickey	from Id I-vars
14:18	cemerick	actually, hiredman mentioned 'worm', which doesn't seem so bad (accurate and unambiguous, anyway)
14:19	rhickey	I'm not putting a worm in my language
14:19	technomancy	spit/slurp is bad enough, eh? =)
14:19	rhickey	var1 once
14:20	hiredman	I like promise
14:20	cemerick	+1 promise, compared to the other options
14:21	Chouser	is this really the only thing we're ever going to want to promise?
14:21	Chouser	that's also a word that's used somewhat coloquially when talking about the api.
14:22	Chouser	hash-maps return integer keys in order, but that's not a promise.
14:22	Chouser	on the other hand, it's not nearly as bad as the two meanings of map, so maybe we're ok.
14:22	rhickey	pvar
14:22	Chouser	var-once
14:23	rhickey	since if you are reading another thread better be writing
14:23	rhickey	:)
14:24	Chouser	I don't like the re-use of "var" (in my last suggestiong either)
14:25	Chouser	maybe "var" can be renamed. :-)
14:25	replaca	speaking of futures and pvars, is there any way to tell if a future has a value other than waiting for it? I'd liek to be able to look at the value if it's there but go off and do something else if it's not ready yet
14:25	replaca	*LIKE
14:26	Chouser	(.isDone f)
14:26	rhickey	replaca: future-done? will go in with this checkin
14:27	rhickey	right now setting the promise/pvar/whatever is a fn call, but I'd like to encapsulate that, maybe if we name that we'll get some clues
14:28	cemerick	jail/capture?
14:28	rhickey	(put pv 42)
14:28	hiredman	isn't pvar that parallel var thing?
14:28	hiredman	ah, pvalues
14:30	Chouser	you deliver on a promise, don't you?
14:30	hiredman	ooo
14:31	Chouser	or fulfill
14:32	Chouser	promise-val, deliver-val!
14:32	Chouser	:-/
14:33	rhickey	(def p (put))
14:33	rhickey	(put p 42)
14:34	Chouser	I like the namespace conservation, but that might be a tad confusing.
14:34	rhickey	I wish it had a more meaningful connection to put options, where the noun/verd thing works
14:36	Chouser	these won't allow validators?
14:36	rhickey	no
14:36	Chouser	what about watchers. ;-)
14:37	rhickey	these are supposed to be fairly primitive things
14:37	rhickey	the first Clojure workflow constructs
14:40	gnuvince	Are some of you going to participate in this year's ICFP contest?
14:41	rhickey	gnuvince: would be fun, don't know about my availability yet
14:53	rhickey	variable ?
14:54	replaca	rhickey: oops, wandered off. Thanks!
14:55	rhickey	(def b (unbound))
14:55	rhickey	(bind b 42)
14:55	rhickey	bindable
14:55	replaca	Chouser: I was just reading a post where you were railing against undocumented interfaces and now you're recommending one to me. :-)
14:57	Chouser	replaca: :-) :-)
14:57	hiredman	bind doesn't suggest blocking
14:57	rhickey	bind doesn't block
14:58	Chouser	(def b (will-bind)) (bind b 42)
14:58	hiredman	fine
14:58	rhickey	pending
14:58	Chouser	hm!
14:58	cemerick	ooh, I just thought of pending too :-)
14:58	gnuvince	Another ref type?
14:58	Chouser	(def b (pending)) (pend b 42) ?
14:59	rhickey	gnuvince: not really, in that refs are really for state, these are one-shots
14:59	cemerick	(def b (pending)) (complete b 42) ?
14:59	zargon_	hmm, whats the difference between :while / :when modifier in for loops?
14:59	gnuvince	rhickey: what's the use case scenario?
14:59	hiredman	:while is like take-while :when is like filter
14:59	cemerick	pending/deliver, pending/fulfill
15:00	zargon_	hiredman: thx
15:00	cemerick	rhickey: doesn't that guarantee confusion given binding (totally different concepts, but I guess that's my point)
15:00	rhickey	gnuvince: plenty, you can build whole workflow systems out of things like this - see Mozart/Oz
15:00	rhickey	cemerick: yes, just riffing
15:01	Chouser	I like pending -- seems more specific than promise
15:01	Chouser	provide? put? fulfill?
15:01	rhickey	pending/fill
15:02	replaca	rhickey: i like pending/fill!
15:02	zargon_	,(for [x (range 3) y (range 3) :while (< y x)] [x y])
15:02	clojurebot	([1 0] [2 0] [2 1])
15:03	zargon_	hmm, why is that? shouldn't that be empty?
15:03	zargon_	it should stop immediately in the first iteration ...?
15:04	Chouser	:while applies to the level of the loop it appears after
15:04	zargon_	ahhh!
15:04	zargon_	there's much more behind for than the docs suggest ...
15:05	rhickey	Chouser: no, while should be an abort as soon as false
15:05	zargon_	huh?
15:06	Chouser	it aborts y in that example, but not x
15:06	rhickey	hrm
15:06	rhickey	how could one bail overall then?
15:07	bhurt	Stupid question of the day: if I pass nil into a java function, does it become null?
15:07	Chouser	bhurt: yes, nil is null
15:07	bhurt	Thanks.
15:09	Chouser	rhickey: well, you can put a :while on x as well, but of course you wouldn't be able to examine y there.
15:30	rhickey	Chouser: yeah, I guess that's how it's always been: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/34724b7b13b3e2ed/6f4ed88d53f12423?#6f4ed88d53f12423
15:31	rhickey	do we need :bail ?
15:31	Chouser	I don't think I've needed it, but that's probably not saying much.
15:33	grammati	:break-if ?
15:37	rhickey	void/fill ?
15:38	Chouser	heh
15:38	Chouser	pending/supply?
15:38	Chouser	pending/unpend?
15:38	Chouser	pending/depend?
15:39	rhickey	pending is not growing on me, I kept forgetting it, and it's not a noun, unless we start calling these things pendings - ick
15:42	rhickey	promise/fill or promise/deliver work - lots of people misspell fulfill
15:42	zargon_	rhickey: would you mind to add a clarifying statement to the api docs on "for"?
15:43	rhickey	zargon_: seems to need it
15:43	zargon_	thx
15:48	rhickey	pend/fill ?
15:48	Chouser	not bad. you're ok calling them "pends"?
15:49	rhickey	I don;t know
15:49	hiredman	a pend is a hallway
15:49	Chouser	promise/fill isn't too bad either
15:51	grammati	I missed most of the conversation and don't really know what you're talking about, but... how about a "deferred"? (as in twisted)
15:51	rhickey	pendent
15:52	rhickey	also pendant
15:55	wlr	defer/complete
15:55	cemerick	that's not bad
15:56	rhickey	defer syn/delay
15:56	rhickey	we're not supplying the work at construction
15:57	rhickey	pending/pendent is the right notion
15:57	cemerick	trap/fill?
15:58	j-dot	pendent/settle?
15:59	gnuvince	suspension/DISBELIEF! ?
15:59	kefka	If I'm doing lots (multi-MB) of binary I/O for IPC and mostly RPC, what resources (Clojure libraries, Java classes) are the fastest?
15:59	cemerick	gnuvince: :-D
15:59	gnuvince	If I understand correctly, we're looking for a noun/verb pair?
15:59	rhickey	gnuvince: constructor/setter
16:00	gnuvince	I got all these stupid ieads :-/
16:00	gnuvince	raincheck/cash-in
16:00	gnuvince	rhickey: you got a thesaurus handy?
16:01	gnuvince	You could look up synonyms for "suspension" or something like that
16:01	rhickey	don't we all? http://thesaurus.reference.com/
16:01	Chouser	wait, are you on the internet!?!
16:01	cemerick	get out of the house! They're in the tubes!
16:02	j-dot	obligation/deliver, obligation/oblige?
16:02	gnuvince	,defer
16:02	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: defer in this context
16:02	grammati	unbound/bind
16:03	gnuvince	oh wait, not a noun :-/
16:03	Chouser	,(doc delay)
16:03	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls."
16:03	kotarak	the eternal struggle for good names?
16:03	gnuvince	postponement?
16:05	kefka	Note on the above: can't use duck-streams (I don't think) because this is binary, not character data.
16:07	rhickey	need/fill
16:08	rhickey	if our programs have needs they'll be that much closer to consciousness, AI here we come!
16:09	hiredman	~need
16:09	clojurebot	the world <reply>what the world needs is more higher order functions
16:09	gnuvince	we should have a wiki for those kind of things...
16:11	rhickey	demand/supply - did someone say that/
16:11	rhickey	?
16:11	wlr	announce/deliver
16:12	hiredman	debit/credit
16:13	gnuvince	,promise
16:13	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: promise in this context
16:14	gnuvince	promise/deliver?
16:14	gnuvince	rhickey: the constructor will not actually fill in a value, that'll happen with the setter (once), right?
16:14	rhickey	gnuvince: right, it's a no-arg ctor
16:15	gnuvince	dig/fill?
16:15	rhickey	thus the preference for a noun that can also be used to refer to these constructs - that's why promise is good
16:16	gnuvince	What I slightly dislike about promise is that I think I've seen it used in other languages to delay a value and force it later.
16:16	gnuvince	That might be in SICP
16:17	rhickey	pend[ing] is nice because it hints at the blocking that will occur of you read before filled
16:17	gnuvince	pending I liked
16:17	gnuvince	But you said it was growing on you :-/
16:18	rhickey	wasn't
16:18	gnuvince	right
16:18	gnuvince	sorry
16:19	kotarak	imagine/realize
16:20	rhickey	first word noun is best
16:23	gnuvince	How do you feel about "raincheck" for the constructor?
16:23	rhickey	not too good
16:23	rhickey	:)
16:23	gnuvince	No problem :)
16:24	gnuvince	Just surfing on thesaurus.com
16:25	gnuvince	pledge?
16:25	rhickey	promise/deliver seems decent
16:26	rhickey	of course. in langs where these are primitives it just looks like variable declaration and assignment :(
16:30	Chouser	interesting that import is a macro
16:30	Chouser	...when require and use are not
16:30	kotarak	This changed lately, no?
16:30	Chouser	kotarak: oh, perhaps you're right.
16:31	Chouser	indeed. import is a fn in 1.0
16:31	Chouser	kotarak: thanks
16:31	rhickey	Chouser: require and use should be, but there will be some breakage because they are called by Java host programs. Will need fn versions too, that take classLoader arg
16:32	rhickey	this to enable use of caller's classloader
16:32	Chouser	ok, that'll be nice.
16:36	rzoom	why does this work: (Float. ({:a "3"} :a))
16:36	rzoom	and not this: (float ({:a "3"} :a))
16:36	Chouser	rzoom: float is a simple type case.
16:37	Chouser	rzoom: (Float. x) call the object constructor
16:37	rhickey	last call - any objections to promise/deliver?
16:37	Chouser	The Float class has a constructor that takes a string.
16:37	duncanm	how do i take the last 5 elements of a seq?
16:37	duncanm	there's no TAKE-LAST
16:38	rhickey	,(doc butlast)
16:38	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a seq of all but the last item in coll, in linear time"
16:38	kotarak	(drop (- (count the-seq) 5) the-seq)
16:38	rhickey	oh, 5
16:39	kotarak	Beware of (iterate inc 0)....
16:39	hiredman	heh
16:39	duncanm	if drop takes a negative number, i guess that works too
16:40	duncanm	oh wait
16:40	duncanm	i get it
16:41	duncanm	it might be handy to have TAKE-LAST
16:41	Chouser	last could take an optional count arg
16:42	duncanm	right
16:42	kotarak	(defn take-last [n s] (drop (max (- (count s) n) 0) s))
16:42	rhickey	Chouser's idea is best, add n arg to last
16:42	Chouser	(reverse (take 5 (reverse x)))
16:43	hiredman	ick
16:43	rhickey	ow!
16:43	Chouser	:-)
16:43	hiredman	it seems like a lazy-seq and a N element ring buffer might be best
16:44	Chouser	can't be done lazily
16:44	kotarak	Because it's not a stopping time.
16:45	hiredman	oh
16:45	hiredman	right
16:45	hiredman	to put things in the buffer you would have to realize them, of course
16:47	rhickey	oh no, canceled/cancelled - Futures use double L
16:48	rzoom	can classes be passed as function arguments? e.g. (defn f [t v] (new t v)) to create an instance of type t, using v as the arg to the constructor.
16:48	rzoom	this is not making clj happy
16:49	Chouser	rzoom: a class can be passed, but you cannot just call new on it then.
16:49	Chouser	you'd need to call a method of the Class class, like (.newInstance t)
16:52	Chouser	or something like: (clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor Integer (to-array ["5"]))
16:54	rzoom	looks like there is no way around that Reflector call, i guesss.
16:55	Chouser	there are a couple techniques that might help, depending on your situation.
16:55	Chouser	Sometimes I've been able to pass around a clojure fn that will construct the object, rather than the class itself.
16:56	rzoom	basically, i am just looking for a easy way to convert strings to various basic java types
16:56	hiredman	erm
16:56	hiredman	easiest is read-string
16:57	Chouser	that's even slower than the reflector call. :-)
16:57	rzoom	well, taking a map as an arg
16:57	Chouser	but nice and general.
16:57	Chouser	rzoom: a map of?
16:58	rzoom	e.g. {:a "3.5", :b "7"} would like to be able to convert :a value to float, and :b value to int
16:58	Chouser	rzoom: how do you decide what type to convert to?
16:59	rzoom	i can hard-code that
16:59	rzoom	all :a's are going to be floats, all :b's ints, etc.
16:59	Chouser	{:a (Float. (:a mymap)), :b (Integer. (:b mymap))}
17:00	rzoom	so, i thought about a function to take a value and a type and return the converted value, then assoc new value
17:01	hiredman	(update-in map [:a] #(Float. %))
17:01	hiredman	,(-> {:a "3.5", :b "7"} (update-in [:a] #(Float. %)) (update-in [:b] #(Integer. %)))
17:01	clojurebot	{:a 3.5, :b 7}
17:01	kotarak	Float. not problematic? I though there was some Float/parseFloat or something, which was preferred.
17:02	rzoom	hiredman: that is pretty good.
17:04	kotarak	(w/o in)
17:05	Chouser	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:a "3.5", :b "7"}] [k (({:a #(Float. %), :b #(Integer. %)} k) v)]))
17:05	clojurebot	{:b 7, :a 3.5}
17:06	rzoom	hmmmm. i guess that the best way to pass a class is just to do the Reflector call
17:06	rzoom	the trouble being that there are a lot of keys, so being able to pass a list of keys to convert would be prettier.
17:07	Chouser	If all you're using the class for is to construct it, I'd recommend looking at passing around clojure fns instead, as both hiredman and I demonstrated.
17:07	hiredman	make a multimethod
17:07	rzoom	yeah, that is probably a good idea, will go with fn passing.
17:07	Chouser	That lets you use a static factory method instead, or constructor, or whatever. Plus it'll run faster that the reflector call.
17:07	Chouser	than
17:09	hiredman	you can make a multimethod that dispatches on (fn [[a]] a) and map it over your map and then pour the resulting seq back into a map with into
17:16	replaca	rhickey: so where do contrib commits go now? github, svn, please wait, or other?
17:16	Chouser	where 'last' is defined in core.clj, there's no math yet. 'dec' isn't defined.
17:18	kotarak	So was git chosen?
17:21	replaca	kotarak: seems like we're almost there, if not quite. Last I heard, it was all still "experimental"
17:22	kotarak	replaca: well, I hoped for hg, but with hg-git it will hopefully work...
17:33	replaca	kotarak: yeah, I didn't have much opinion, but I'm used to git so it's pretty good by me (one less thing to learn :-)). I've tried git on windows (a little) this week and it seems to be not too bad
17:35	kotarak	replaca: I don't really care, I prefer hg mostly for philosophical reasons. I don't think there is much difference. hg or git don't buy each other much. And with hg-git by the github guys there's a bridge between the worlds. :)
17:36	technomancy	kotarak: yeah, nice timing on that.
17:38	bhurt	Having worked with both git and hg now, I think git is somewhat better for open source style development, but hg is better for a more centralized/corporate environment.
17:38	bhurt	I HATE HATE HATE bazaar.
18:09	rhickey	first commit to github! http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/master
18:11	liebke	woot! I saw the tweet :)
18:11	rhickey	just need to coordinate the move for contrib - any contribbers on?
18:15	rhickey	hrm, I can't admin the clojure-contrib on github until I've imported the repo? I'd like to add collaborators who could help with that...
18:16	technomancy	you can create a blank repo and push to it after the fact.
18:16	rhickey	I want to use their svn import, a one-time thing
18:16	technomancy	oh, server-side import, right. I don't know about that.
18:17	rhickey	ah, direct url works
18:23	arohner	is it possible to call apply on a java method?
18:23	arohner	i.e. (apply .foo instance args)?
18:24	rhickey	arohner: no, Java methods are not proper functions
18:24	kotarak	arohner: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67182 by rhickey
18:25	arohner	excellent! thanks
18:27	replaca	rhickey: my idea about how to freeze: just tell us to stop for a day or so. Stephen and Stuart S. have been the big committers the last week or so.
18:29	replaca	bbl
19:37	mrsolo	http://paste.lisp.org/display/81782 any better way to do this? I found out that assoc is the only way to retain original comparator for sortedhash
19:38	Chousuke	mrsolo: wouldn't (into cur-result (...)) work?
19:39	mrsolo	no
19:39	mrsolo	will it?
19:39	mrsolo	hmm
19:39	mrsolo	let me try
19:39	mrsolo	i was doing (into {}
19:40	kotarak	and (apply assoc cur-result ...), partial is not needed
19:42	mrsolo	chousuke: oh yea it works thanks :-)
19:42	mrsolo	kotarak: you right...nice to know
19:43	kotarak	also nice idiom: (into (empty foo) ...)
19:43	Chousuke	yeah. preserves the type
19:44	kotarak	mrsolo: well you do it in your anon fn: (apply generate-tree (second x) more)
19:44	mrsolo	http://paste.lisp.org/display/81783 alternative form,
19:45	mrsolo	kotarak: ya my concept isn't that strong yet..need reiforcements :-)
19:45	mrsolo	nice empty is very handy
19:58	mrsolo	ack empty doesn't peserve comparator
19:59	mrsolo	http://paste.lisp.org/display/81786
20:18	Chouser	mrsolo: that's a sorted map?
20:19	Chouser	sorted-map-by?
20:20	Chouser	sure enough. probably counts as a bug.
20:22	mrsolo	ya sorted map
20:51	JAS4151	I'm not sure how to word my question, but I made a 'stateful' generator in clojure using lazy sequences and atoms to calculate the Fibonacci sequence, (here http://paste.lisp.org/display/81789#1 ... the fib-seq function... don't execute int he repl as it will just go on forever and crash clojure... use with take-n or something), is there an easier way to do this in Clojure? I know that in Common Lisp I would use variable capture instead of usi
20:54	stuhood	there is a definitely an easier
20:54	stuhood	way
20:56	JAS4151	cool
20:56	stuhood	check out the functions "lazy-seq-fibo" and "fibo" from the Programming Clojure example code: http://github.com/stuarthalloway/programming-clojure/blob/cb0944e31490c0198a1ad2761b08a379fa73f480/examples/functional.clj
20:58	JAS4151	ok thanks, i'll look over these
21:00	JAS4151	ah so clojure works like erlang and you can match against number of arguments?
21:00	JAS4151	that's cool
21:04	stuhood	yea... pretty handy
21:05	stuhood	you can also do destructuring in function arguments, which is similar to pattern matching, but not quite as powerful
21:10	JAS4151	i was reading about that, looks like it might be more useful than destructing-bind in common lisp
21:55	Chouser__	I cloned the clojure git repo, but it doesn't seem to have any branches in it. What did I do wrong?
21:57	arbscht	other than master, you mean?
21:59	Chouser__	yeah
21:59	Chouser__	I want 1.0 as well
21:59	arbscht	try git branch -a
21:59	arbscht	you should be able to checkout 1.0 from origin
22:00	Chouser__	gah
22:00	Chouser__	yes, that did it, thanks.
22:00	Chouser__	I thought just "git branch" would show them all.
22:01	arbscht	that shows local branches only
22:01	arbscht	make a local tracking branch if you want to modify 1.0
22:01	arbscht	git checkout -b clojure-1.0 origin/clojure-1.0
22:01	Chouser__	wow. Guess I need to read up more on git.
22:02	Chouser__	my git-svn habits aren't sufficient. :-)
22:02	arbscht	heh :)
22:49	gstamp	Is there a function for replacing the nth element of a collection?
22:58	gnuvince_	(doc update-in)
22:58	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
22:58	gnuvince_	,(update-in [1,2,3] [0] inc)
22:58	clojurebot	[2 2 3]
22:58	gnuvince_	,(update-in [1,2,3] [0] (fn [] 17))
22:58	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--2656$fn
22:58	gnuvince_	,(update-in [1,2,3] [0] (fn [_] 17))
22:58	clojurebot	[17 2 3]
22:59	gnuvince_	Not terribly sexy I'm afraid
22:59	gstamp	yeah... should do the job. i'll wrap the non sexyness in a method to hide it.
22:59	gstamp	thanks
23:00	gnuvince_	happy to ablige
23:02	cark	,(assoc [0 1 2] 1 :a)
23:02	clojurebot	[0 :a 2]
23:06	gstamp	that's nicer. Neither seems to work for sequences though
23:06	gstamp	lists rather
23:07	cark	rhikey doesn't like to provide core function doing the work in O(n)
23:07	cark	maybe check seq-utils ?
23:08	gstamp	i'll check it out
23:08	hiredman	,(let [a '(1 2 3)] (concat (take 1 a) [4] (drop 2 a)))
23:08	clojurebot	(1 4 3)
23:09	cark	that's ugly too =P
23:10	hiredman	it's lazy
23:11	gstamp	i should probably just ensure I'm always working with a vector
23:11	cark	yes, use the right data structure for the job