#clojure – 2009-05-05

2009-05-05

00:08	ctdean	laters folks, and grats on the v1.0 release
01:37	hiredman	clojurebot: make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
01:37	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
01:38	hiredman	er
01:38	hiredman	nuts
01:38	hiredman	clojurebot: make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
01:38	cp2	nuts!
01:38	cp2	you're gonna love my nuts
01:39	cp2	slap your troubles away
01:39	hiredman	...
01:39	cp2	what ?
01:39	hiredman	I have to keep pasting urls or I'll never beat lisppaste8
01:40	cp2	heh
01:41	cp2	hiredman: interesting article
01:47	hiredman	the comments are also interesting and lively
01:48	cp2	yeah, i read a couple
02:05	replaca	hiredman: did you have better luck with the new json doc?
02:06	hiredman	oh, sorry I have not tried
02:07	hiredman	yes, it works
02:10	danlarkin	three cheers for clojure-json!
02:13	hiredman	clojurebot: three cheers
02:13	clojurebot	Excuse me?
02:14	hiredman	clojurebot: three cheers is <reply>hip hip, hooray! hip hip, hooray! hip hip, hooray!
02:14	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
02:14	hiredman	clojurebot: three cheers for clojure-json
02:14	clojurebot	hip hip, hooray! hip hip, hooray! hip hip, hooray!
02:29	replaca	ahh, I'd wandered off to fix autodoc bugs.
02:30	replaca	Yay, glad to hear it's working.
03:27	jdz	Happy birthday, Clojure!
08:45	Chouser	the value of an agent can change while in a transaction, right?
08:45	rhickey_	Chouser: sure
08:45	Chouser	(dosync (= @foo @foo)) is guaranteed true of foo is a ref, but not if foo is an agent.
08:45	AWizzArd	right
08:46	Chouser	ok, thanks.
10:00	AWizzArd	If I want to retry something that can throw an Exception a few times, how can this be then done idiomatically? Currently I try to recur inside the catch, but that is not allowed.
10:16	__mac	Define "a few times". If it's not many, you could just call the function again instead of using recur?
10:22	tWip	If you're retrying something (I'm guessing IO) so many times that it blows the stack... something is wrong
10:24	AWizzArd	a few times, such as 3
10:24	AWizzArd	Trying to connect to a listener, sending an email, whatever.
10:24	__mac	Then just call it regularly would be easiest solution I guess?
10:24	__mac	Passing a try count or something like that
10:24	AWizzArd	Probably a macro could be nice here (retry 3 ...) where ... is the body.
10:25	danlarkin_	dotimes
10:26	danlarkin_	you could wrap that, possibly
10:26	danlarkin_	or look at it, anyway
10:26	__mac	Isn't that always a fixed number of times?
10:31	AWizzArd	Yeah, I would want to break out of the dotimes if the action succeeds.
10:32	cgrand	AWizzArd: what do you want to do if the nth retry fails? propagate the exception?
10:33	AWizzArd	yes
10:37	cgrand	you're right: a macro seems the way to go
10:39	cgrand	cheating: (defmacro retry [n & body] `(try-or ~(repeat n `(do ~@body))))
10:39	__mac	Look at with-open in core. It does self-recursion with a catch on each level
10:40	AWizzArd	btw, I just discovered an area where Clojure is a bit too static:
10:40	__mac	Or rather a finally but it's the same concept
10:40	AWizzArd	(def x (if-not (resolve 'x) 0 (inc x)))
10:41	AWizzArd	when the compiler discovers the (inc x) it will complain that it doesn't know x. Although that part of the code can never be reached as long x isn't bound.
10:42	AWizzArd	I guess that is an underlying Java mechanism, which is conservative in its static type checks.
10:42	AWizzArd	well, JVM mechanism
10:44	rhickey_	AWizzArd: you expect it not to compile code that might not be reached due to a runtime state?
10:45	AWizzArd	The general mechanism is okay in principle. Anyway, if it were more dynamic here that would result in perfectly correct code.
10:45	rhickey_	Clojure resolves names at compile time - that makes it fast, waiting until runtime would be slow
10:46	AWizzArd	During tests with load-file in the repl it would init the var for the first time, and on reloads have a different strategy.
10:46	Raynes	Well, that was stupid.
10:47	Raynes	I did this in a Scala console in NetBeans: (1 to 1000000000).foreach(println)
10:47	Raynes	:\
10:47	AWizzArd	But I understand that compilers are not advanced enough and prefer the case that is easier to implement.
10:48	AWizzArd	... and compiler writers prefer ...
11:00	lisppaste8	__mac pasted "retry macro suggestion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79703
11:01	__mac	AWizzArd: Posted retry suggestion :)
11:01	__mac	eh I mean "pasted" ofc
11:03	AWizzArd	__mac: looks good
11:04	__mac	It will always run the body once, so n = 1 means one REtry not one try
11:06	__mac	That was fun. First clojure code I have written in a long time. Been awfully busy in java land :( hopefully the people around me will soon see the light
11:21	AWizzArd	,(* 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3)
11:21	clojurebot	7776
11:39	AWizzArd	Is there something like (binding [out /dev/null] ...) Binding out to nil results in a NPC.
12:00	cemerick	AWizzArd: a no-op printwriter is a simple thing
12:05	kadaver_	how do I regex "\\"
12:06	kadaver_	i want to pass \ to split
12:06	kadaver_	, (.split "path\to\file" "\\")
12:06	clojurebot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unexpected internal error near index 1 \ ^
12:06	kadaver_	, (+ 3 4)
12:06	clojurebot	7
12:06	kadaver_	, (.split "path\to\file" "\")
12:06	clojurebot	EOF while reading string
12:07	kadaver_	, (.split "path\to\file" "/")
12:07	clojurebot	#<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@d961db>
12:07	kadaver_	, (.split "path/to/file" "/")
12:07	clojurebot	#<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@1ce49c9>
12:07	drewr	,(into [] (.split "foo\\bar\\baz" "\\\\"))
12:07	clojurebot	["foo" "bar" "baz"]
12:07	kadaver_	so i want to do it with backslash
12:07	Chouser	,(seq (.split #"\\" "foo\\bar"))
12:07	clojurebot	("foo" "bar")
12:08	drewr	Hm, I'm surprised those both worked.
12:08	kadaver_	how can you do it with reversed args?
12:08	kadaver_	,(into [] (.split "foo\\bar\\baz" "\\"))
12:08	clojurebot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unexpected internal error near index 1 \ ^
12:08	Chouser	#"" produces a regex.Pattern object, which has a split method
12:08	kadaver_	,(into [] (.split "foo\\barbaz" "\\"))
12:08	clojurebot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unexpected internal error near index 1 \ ^
12:08	kadaver_	why \\\\?
12:08	drewr	Chouser: Ah, you're right.
12:08	kadaver_	,(seq (.split #"\\" "foo\\bar"))
12:08	clojurebot	("foo" "bar")
12:08	kadaver_	,(seq (.split #"\\" "foo\\bar\\file"))
12:08	clojurebot	("foo" "bar" "file")
12:09	Chouser	kadaver_: #"" has different quoting rules than "", specifically for this kind of pattern.
12:10	AWizzArd	cemerick: how does a no-op printwriter look like?
12:10	Chouser	in a #"" a backslash and whatever follows it are put directly into the pattern, so the regex engine sees \\ and knows that's a literal backslash.
12:10	AWizzArd	It seems the constructor of those printwriters always need an argument.
12:11	Chouser	in "", a backslash is interpreted by the reader, so \\ becomes a single \ inside the string. But the regex engine interprets \ and whatever follows it, for patterns like \s and \w. So in order to get the regex engine to see \\ you have to say "\\\\"
12:11	Chouser	it's like emacs. terrible.
12:11	cemerick	AWizzArd: probably just a proxy of java.io.PrintWriter, with overrides of all of the print*/write methods to do nothing.
12:12	AWizzArd	oh, I hoped for a very short solution
12:12	cemerick	maybe out could be a writer, which would make things simpler, but IIRC, out is a printwriter.
12:12	AWizzArd	(binding [out (EmptyWriter.)] ...)
12:12	cemerick	well, that's what it would look like once you write EmptyWriter :-)
12:13	AWizzArd	sure
12:13	AWizzArd	Under Linux one can maybe have a (PrintWriter. "/dev/null")?
12:13	AWizzArd	But I don't know if Window also has such a null device.
12:13	cemerick	oh, printwriter takes a Writer itself, so it actually is quite easy. Writer only has three abstract methods.
12:14	Holcxjo	DOS had a nul: device..
12:15	chessguy_work	clearly, DOS was the best OS ever
12:16	unlink1	You must never have used Windows 3.11. Far more win than DOS.
12:16	chessguy_work	oh man, i was so mad when windows 3.11 came out
12:16	chessguy_work	of course, i was like 8 at the time
12:17	drewr	Chouser: Emacs's regexps quote that way for a reason.
12:17	AWizzArd	It seems that under Windows (binding [out (java.io.PrintWriter. "NUL")] (println "Hallo")) does the job.
12:17	cemerick	heh
12:17	cemerick	just making a no-op writer seems way simpler than worrying about the proper /dev/null device/path/etc
12:18	AWizzArd	cemerick: probably
12:19	AWizzArd	at least Apache has it already: http://commons.apache.org/io/apidocs/org/apache/commons/io/output/NullWriter.html
12:20	kadaver_	so anyone want to swap code with me and comment on each otehrs code? I have a 400 LOC mp3player that I'd like to be, well cleaner. it's pretty modular and easy to change but the could is a bit ugly imho.
12:20	chessguy_work	so, i was reading "on lisp" the other day, with all the crazy ` and `, and ,@ stuff. does clojure have that kind of quoting/unquoting for macros?
12:21	AWizzArd	chessguy_work: yes
12:21	chessguy_work	is the syntax the same?
12:21	chessguy_work	i can't find a reference for it
12:21	AWizzArd	, is in Clojure ~ and ,@ is in Clojure ~@
12:21	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context
12:21	AWizzArd	basically they are nearly compatible
12:22	AWizzArd	anaphoric macros are a little bit different in Clojure
12:22	chessguy_work	how so?
12:22	AWizzArd	the symbol you want to make available in the body must get a ~' in a let
12:22	AWizzArd	but the advantage is that Clojure macros are more hygienic by default
12:23	chessguy_work	err, what does hygienic mean? sorry, new to the macro scene. i've heard that word before, but never seen it defined
12:23	AWizzArd	In CL it could be `(let ((it ,object)) ,@body) while in Clojure it should be `(let [~'it ~object] ~@body)
12:24	AWizzArd	It means that Clojure would complain when you do `(let [something ~object] ...)
12:24	AWizzArd	So, you can not accidently overwrite vars
12:24	chessguy_work	oh so variable capture is a little harder to do by accident?
12:24	AWizzArd	exactly
12:24	AWizzArd	You must gensym them first. In Clojure this is easier. Just append a hash.
12:25	AWizzArd	`(let [my-var# ~object] ... (println my-var#) ...)
12:25	unlink1	Anyone know of a Java syntax highlighter for Clojure which has terminal output?
12:26	unlink1	Sort of like pygments.
12:27	cgrand	unlink1: pygments on Jython :-)
12:28	unlink1	Good point. I'll just use python and unix pipes.
12:28	unlink1	i.e. pygmentize
12:28	orero	hi. I'm trying to understand the purpose of clojure.contrib. can someone tell me what's the difference between contrib and any other third-party libraries?
12:29	unlink1	contrib is a collection of semi-officially sanctioned libraries which are candidates for inclusion in core
12:29	orero	unlink1: does that mean most of contrib will end up in the core someday?
12:30	AWizzArd	orero: no
12:30	replaca	orero: look here for an overview: http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/wiki/OverviewOfContrib
12:30	chessguy_work	i think what it means is that they are "candidated for inclusion in core"
12:30	chessguy_work	just a guess
12:31	AWizzArd	A limited set of parts of contrib will go into core, maybe it will be like this for many years.
12:31	AWizzArd	But typically those tools will stay in Contrib.
12:31	kadaver_	java.sql.SQLException: Failed to start database 'C:/clojure/progs/mp3player/mp3.db', see the next exception for details. (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:31	kadaver_	ok how do I see the enxt exception?
12:32	orero	AWizzArd: was there anything in contrib that ever moved to core?
12:33	hiredman	yes
12:33	orero	so essentially, contrib is like any third-party library without the licensing issues if Rich wants to take it and put in the core, right?
12:34	danlarkin	and it's sorrrrrt of like a standard library
12:35	orero	ok, thanks.
12:36	chessguy_work	,users
12:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: users in this context
12:37	chessguy_work	i'd be curious to track the number of users in this channel. i bet it's increasing rapidly
12:38	danlarkin	it was, then it slowed down a month or two ago
12:38	chessguy_work	interesting, wonder why that is
12:40	hiredman	~max users
12:40	clojurebot	Huh?
12:40	hiredman	~max people
12:40	clojurebot	max people is 164
12:40	unlink1	clojure -e "(source $1)" \| pygmentize -l clojure
12:41	danlarkin	very nice
12:42	unlink1	A useful companion to (if (= (count command-line-args) 0) (println "usage: clojuredoc name") (let [arg (first command-line-args)] (let [v (resolve (symbol arg))] (if v (print-doc v) (println (format "no documentation found for '%s'" arg))))))
12:42	t345	I like it that Clojure naturally parses XML and possibly also JSON into a tree to be consumed and am researching how to achieve the following
12:43	t345	I want to query any url aka web services and present the tree in a way to a Java using developer so that he can select nodes from the tree
12:43	t345	then he can tell me which nodes he is interested in and I will return the value/node if asked
12:44	t345	this is going to be used in an Eclipse RCP based telephony application modeler/builder
12:44	t345	the developer of such an application shall be able to assign the selected nodes to variable which are used in the telephony application
12:45	t345	any idiomatic proposals?
12:47	t345	parsing xml into a tree is easy, I just need to find a way to support http proxies, too, but that's another topic and not related.
12:48	t345	what representation would be best for consuming from Java? or should I just implement a callback-based API which delivers more and more nodes and so on.
12:49	danlarkin	why don't you just return whatever you parse from the xml, why make it overcomplicated?
12:50	t345	danlarkin: let's recheck what structure it is when consumes from Java....
12:51	danlarkin	huh?
12:52	t345	danlarkin: the list/tree I get if I eval (clojure.xml/parse "http/....")
12:52	t345	danlarkin: if I retrieve that when I call the clojure code from Java. what will be the reprentation. that's what I'm checking
13:04	danlarkin	t345: and what is your conclusion?
13:04	t345	danlarkin: not sure yet
13:04	hiredman	,(class (into {} (map vector (range 20) (range 20))))
13:04	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
13:05	t345	danlarkin: it's a type from clojure.lang naturally
13:07	danlarkin	yes, a map
13:07	t345	danlarkin: PersistentStructMap which is defined in core.clj
13:08	danlarkin	not exactly
13:08	t345	it's in the jvm part I guess
13:08	t345	checking
13:08	unlink1	What can I do to reduce the startup time of Clojure
13:08	danlarkin	it doesn't matter where it's defined
13:08	t345	danlarkin: it's a Java source file
13:08	t345	danlarkin: makes sense
13:09	unlink1	I'd like to use it for command line scripting, but a minimum of 1 second execution time essentially makes it unacceptable for that purpose.
13:09	danlarkin	I'm just suggesting that you return the map instead of invent a convoluted callback scheme which serves the same purpose as a map but with less usefulness
13:10	hiredman	unlink1: nailgun
13:10	t345	danlarkin: is it always this specifc map type or do I have to rely on it being of a super type?
13:10	danlarkin	t345: rely on the interface
13:11	t345	danlarkin: yep, IPersistentMap
13:11	hiredman	,(ancestors (class {}))
13:11	clojurebot	#{java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IFn java.lang.Runnable java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Associative clojure.lang.IPersistentMap clojure.lang.Counted java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.APersistentMap clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.Obj clojure.lang.IMeta java.util.Map clojure.lang.Seqable}
13:11	t345	danlarkin: thanks so far
13:11	kadaver	me I still don't get why anyone would use Clojure over Haskell.
13:12	gnuvince	kadaver: why is that?
13:12	rsynnott	they're not very similar languages, at all
13:12	kadaver	eh
13:12	hiredman	gnuvince: because no one will talk to him about his mp3player
13:12	kadaver	clojure is a weak haskell
13:12	gnuvince	hmm
13:13	hiredman	so he is resentful and trolling for attention
13:13	gnuvince	kadaver: ok
13:13	kadaver	haskell does everything clojure does much better
13:13	t345	kadaver: I use it to have a saner language for all the $DAYJOB stuff I have to do ontop of the JVM
13:13	kadaver	and did it long before clojure
13:13	t345	kadaver: that's a pointless discussion
13:13	danlarkin	don't feed the troll! run!
13:13	gnuvince	Haskell's Jon Harrop it seems
13:14	t345	gnuvince: how do you come to that conclusion? curios
13:14	danlarkin	hahaha, google actually has a suggested search of "Jon Harrop troll"
13:15	gnuvince	t345: Jon Harrop is well known to barge in on the Lisp and Haskell communities, and pimp OCaml for no particular reason.
13:15	unlink1	nailgun is pretty awesome actually.
13:18	t345	danlarkin: actually
13:18	t345	danlarkin: I don't have to be asked which nodes to return
13:18	Raynes	What kadaver said applys to just about every Haskell person I've talked to. They all think Haskell is superior to Lisp in general. It's annoyingly arrogant.
13:19	t345	danlarkin: that can be done in the rcp app
13:19	danlarkin	t345: just return all nodes, the java program should "ask" the map itself
13:19	t345	Raynes: Haskell's type system is meant to solve anything, prevent babies being killed and produce endless amounts of water with lazy infinite types
13:20	t345	danlarkin: had the insight a minute ago when I asked myself how be asked what to return
13:20	t345	danlarkin: so beatiful
13:20	t345	danlarkin: I can now concentrate on how to configure the http proxy for the underlyng http code.....
13:21	gnuvince	Raynes: there's a difference between somebody prefering Haskell over Lisp and having actual reasons than just going on about how Haskell does everything better than Clojure.
13:24	kadaver	jump on the love bandwagon
13:27	opqdonut	i'm coding clojure at work and would much rather be hacking haskell ;)
13:28	opqdonut	imo clojure's biggest problem is that it tries to embrace purity but pure code somehow still becomes very verbose and clunky
13:28	opqdonut	also there are some minor annoyances, like not being able to tell from which struct-map template a map was made
13:29	opqdonut	would be useful in emulating algebraic data types (another feature i miss)
13:30	unlink1	Any way to get nailgun to listen on a UNIX socket? I don't want any user on the machine to be able to attach to my server.
13:30	opqdonut	but a great language still, and much nicer in gluing stuff together than haskell
13:35	unlink1	ha. Before you download it, be aware that it's not secure. Not even close. Although there are means to ensure that the client is connected to the server from the local machine, there is not yet any concept of a "user". Any programs that run in Nailgun are run with the same permissions as the server itself. You have been warned.
14:30	jonafan	congrats on 1.0
14:30	cp2	thanks, i worked so hard on it :)
14:31	jonafan	me too
14:32	Raynes	gnuvince: I prefer Clojure, but I don't hate on Common lisp.
14:35	kadaver	frame.add(new BasicArrowButton(BasicArrowButton.NORTH));
14:36	kadaver	how would I create that?
14:36	kadaver	BasicArrowButton.NORTH
14:36	kadaver	oh wait
14:44	twism	quick questoion (maybe)...
14:44	twism	how would you create a simple REPL script
14:44	twism	?
14:45	twism	the most basic loop read print back to out (no eval needed)
14:46	hiredman	,(doc clojure.main/repl)
14:46	clojurebot	"([& options]); Generic, reusable, read-eval-print loop. By default, reads from in, writes to out, and prints exception summaries to err. If you use the default :read hook, in must either be an instance of LineNumberingPushbackReader or duplicate its behavior of both supporting .unread and collapsing CR, LF, and CRLF into a single \\newline. Options are sequential keyword-value pairs. Available options and their d
14:47	twism	hiredman: im not going to use it to eval clojure
14:48	twism	let me rephrade the question
14:48	twism	rephrase*
14:48	twism	how would i get user input from a clojure script
14:48	hiredman	same as java
14:48	hiredman	in is bound to System.in by default
14:48	hiredman	actually
14:49	twism	ah
14:49	hiredman	in is bound to System.in wrapped in a LineNumberingPushbackReader
14:49	hiredman	but whatever
14:49	twism	(defn run [& args]
14:49	twism	(loop [input (read-line)]
14:49	twism	(print input)
14:49	twism	(recur (read-line))))
14:50	hiredman	(map println (repeatedly read-line))
14:50	twism	god
14:50	twism	i have along way to go
14:51	twism	an that would work if i started the script using clojure.main?
14:51	twism	and*
14:52	hiredman	,(doc read-line)
14:52	clojurebot	"([]); Reads the next line from stream that is the current value of in ."
14:52	heltav	java.lang.NullPointerException (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
14:52	heltav	what is the cause of such an error normally? not the most helpful errormessage...
14:53	hiredman	twism: not really
14:53	hiredman	read-line doesn't block
14:54	hiredman	so you don't want to use it like that
14:54	hiredman	heltav: trying to call a method on something that is nil
14:54	twism	just found that out when it kicked me out
14:54	hiredman	,(.toString nil)
14:54	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
14:54	hiredman	,(nil 1)
14:54	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil
14:54	hiredman	oh
14:57	twism	hiredman: thanks for all the help... what do i need to do to have read-line block?
15:03	duncanm	if i have a Java API that takes a List<Foo> is there a way to convert an ISeq into one of those?
15:06	heltav	hmm i have big let, can you somehow println in a let?
15:07	stuhood	heltav: println returns nil, so you can bind the result of println to a variable you don't care about
15:07	hiredman	twism: last time I dealt with it I just used a blockingqueue
15:07	opqdonut	let [_ (prn someting)]
15:07	opqdonut	or something to that effect
15:07	hiredman	or you can use doto
15:07	hiredman	(let [x (doto (something) prn)] ...)
15:08	stuhood	~def c.l.PersistentList
15:09	stuhood	duncanm: if the object extends ASeq, then it will implement the List interface for you. have you tried just passing in the seq?
15:12	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/107140 my gui repl thing, uses a blockingqueue and clojure.main/repl
15:14	twism	hiredman: thanks man
15:17	hiredman	clojure.main/repl is kind of annoying, it takes a map, but doesn't
15:18	hiredman	so you call it like (clojure.main/repl :read some-read-function :print some-print-function)
15:18	cp2	schroedinger's repl
15:18	hiredman	instead of (clojure.main/repl {:read some-read-function :print some-print-function})
15:19	hiredman	because obviously it just does something like (defn repl [& args] (let [args1 (apply hash-map args)] ...))
15:19	twism	i was just looking at that and was thinking of leveraging that instead of rolling my own read-evl-print-loop
15:19	hiredman	which someone thinks is cute
15:19	cp2	hah
15:46	t345	is there MAven support for clojure? or ideally something cool like Scala's simple-build-tool
15:47	durka42	for the most part ant and maven work as per java
15:51	t345	I use Mave at dayjob. the dependency stuff is good but it's slow as a tool to call often
15:51	t345	Ant is, well not bad, but also using too much RAM and stuff for the job it does
15:51	t345	anyway, no problem
16:13	t345	what is the difference between clojure.jar and clojure-slim.jar? is that latter only missing the sources?
16:15	drewr	t345: Yes.
16:16	t345	hard to imagine as clojure-slim is 526k and clojure is 1400k
16:16	t345	wow
16:16	stuhood	drewr: what does that mean in terms of runtime performance? should -slim load faster? or do they both contain the compiled versions
16:17	t345	clojure-source.jar is 278k
16:18	t345	there's another difference, think
16:18	t345	stuhood: I don't think so
16:18	drewr	stuhood: No runtime perf difference. Just a matter of how big you want your distribution to be.
16:19	drewr	The JVM will load the compiled classes and not look at the cljs. It's merely for reverse engineering convenience.
16:20	t345	is it enough to supplu clojure-contrib.jar within -cp to be able to use it from the repl?
16:20	t345	I am failing to do so
16:22	marklar1	is it possible to compile and load multiple files in slime when some files :use others? I keep getting FileNotFoundExceptions for their .class files, so I'm guessing it has something to do with the classpath
16:36	stuhood	marklar1: do you have compile-path on your classpath?
16:38	t345	there is speed difference between using clojure-slim or clojure
16:39	t345	the repl starts up faster with clojure and is slower with clojure-slim
16:39	t345	might have to do with some of the inner classes not being there and probably first bein generated
16:39	t345	interesting
16:39	marklar1	stuhood: no, I don't. I'll look into that, thanks
16:42	stuhood	t345: ah yea... i think we had things mixed up
16:43	stuhood	t345,drewr: based on the contents of the jar, the -slim jar is smaller because it contains the source of 'core.clj, main.clj', etc, rather than all of the .classes that those files compile to
16:43	stuhood	t345,drewr: so -slim loads slower because it executes those files at runtime, rather than doing AOT compilation
16:45	stuhood	classic speed/size tradeoff
16:46	drewr	stuhood: Ah, you're right. I had it backwards.
16:48	eee	can you index into strings the way you can in python?
16:49	eee	"abcdefg"[5] == 'f'
16:49	Cark	,(get "abc" 2)
16:49	clojurebot	\c
16:50	eee	oh cool
16:50	eee	now what's the easy way for a n00b to find that?
16:50	eee	so I can help myself more
16:50	eee	thanks for the help, too
16:51	Cark	get works for maps, a vector is a map of indexes to characters
16:51	Cark	a string is "kind of like" a vector =P
16:51	eee	cool
16:52	Cark	i mean a vector is a map of indexes to elements =/
16:52	eee	i knew that at one point
16:52	eee	but took a break
16:52	eee	so get is for maps
16:53	stuhood	eee: anything with a key and value: which includes vectors and strings
16:53	eee	makes sense
16:53	eee	nice generalization
16:54	eee	er abstraction
17:13	eee	I wonder when to use (dorun) vs. (doseq)
17:13	Cark	how about doall =P
17:14	eee	ok
17:14	eee	i have a let
17:14	eee	that called a function
17:14	eee	and got back a list
17:14	eee	and I want to run through the pairs in that list
17:14	eee	and put them in a structure
17:14	eee	oh, and I guess that's also a problem because the structure is immutable
17:15	Cark	a reduce or a map then
17:15	eee	oh
17:16	eee	i don't want to return a list
17:16	eee	i have my own java datastructure that i wrote for clojure
17:17	twism	qq.. is there a way to turn a clojure function to its source?
17:17	eee	twism, it's java byte code
17:17	eee	not java
17:17	twism	hmm
17:17	twism	i think i've seen it done before
17:18	eee	i think i need reduce
17:18	Cark	eee : so you use reduce, start with your empty data structure
17:18	eee	or areduce
17:18	eee	ok
17:18	twism	(fn [x] (+ 5 x)) -> "(fn [x] (+ 5 x))"
17:18	Cark	if it gets too hairy, use loop and recur
17:19	twism	(magic-fn (fn [x] (+ 5 x))) -> "(fn [x] (+ 5 x))"
17:19	eee	already in a loop-recur
17:19	twism	i coulda sworn i've seen this doen before
17:19	eee	but I think it is straight wd
17:20	eee	so if my function is (.insert heap "abc" 3)
17:21	eee	where "abc" 3 is the pair to insert
17:21	Cark	ah you need destructuring
17:21	eee	i need to like quote that or put a hash on the front?
17:22	eee	i'll just have a list of pairs
17:22	eee	for the destructuring part
17:22	eee	i'm just at the syntax part right now.
17:22	Cark	(reduce #(.insert %1 (first %2) (second %2)) (MyStructure/EMPTY) (get-pairs))
17:23	Cark	something like that =P
17:24	eee	wow
17:26	eee	wow you didn't even need a let to get the pairs
17:27	twism	a macro that does this is cool too
17:29	eee	so awesome how java can sit right in the clojure code
17:30	t345	eee: sample?
17:31	t345	eee: did I read it correctly that you mixin java syntax? or are you taling about calling java functions?
17:31	eee	that's all I meant
17:32	eee	(let [loaded-heap (reduce #(.insert %1 (first %2) (second %2)) heap (get-transitions current-state))]
17:33	twism	got it.. bind StringWriter to out and pr the function as a list (since everything is a list)
17:34	t345	what's wrong about (clojure.contrib.json.read/read-json "http://www.google.com/ig/api?weather=Berlin")
17:34	ozzilee	Hey all. I'm writing an aplication wherein I want a function to do one thing during development, and something different when deployed. I'd like to select the behavior at compile-time with a macro, rather than at evaluation, but I'm not sure how to go about it.
17:34	t345	I have clojure-contrib.jar in -cp but I never can get further than java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.json.read (NO_SOURCE_FILE:3)
17:35	Chouser	ozzilee: ah, I've been meaning to blog on that.
17:35	eee	what about just a switch in the main
17:35	ozzilee	Chouser: Well hurry up! :-)
17:35	Chouser	yeah, not gonna happen right now. Let me see if I can remember what I did...
17:36	Chouser	you need a macro to call like (if-devel foo bar), right?
17:37	ozzilee	Chouser: Yeah, something like that would be ideal.
17:37	Chouser	then: (def devel true) (defmacro if-devel [a b] (if devel a b))
17:38	Chouser	it looks almost like you don't need if-devel, since it's so simple, but really you do.
17:38	t345	ok the url is not json but that's not the point :)
17:39	Chouser	heh, I suppose you could write ifdef
17:40	ozzilee	Chouser: Hmm. Okay, I think I can run with that, thanks :-)
17:40	Chouser	(defmacro ifdef [i t e] (if (resolve i) t e))
17:41	Chouser	(def devel? true) (ifdef devel? foo bar)
17:41	eee	crud . . . what i really need is ............ #(.insert %1 %2 (get-score %2))
17:42	Chouser	...but then you'd have to comment out (def devel? ...) rather then setting it to false.
17:42	Chouser	just like #ifdef in C
17:42	ozzilee	Chouser: Hmm. I have a namespace that only exists in development mode, I suppose I could write a macro that looks for that namespace, yeah?
17:43	Chouser	sure
17:44	Chouser	,(find-ns 'devel)
17:44	clojurebot	nil
17:55	eee	how do I get to the snippet web thing
17:55	eee	to make asking my question easier?
17:59	ozzilee	eee: paste.lisp.org
18:00	replaca	lisppaste8: url?
18:00	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:01	eee	i tried this
18:01	eee	http://pastebin.com/d743be6be
18:02	eee	so my problem is that
18:02	eee	loaded-heap
18:02	eee	doesn't exist
18:02	eee	because that reduce
18:02	eee	just made it
18:02	eee	so I can use let
18:02	eee	ahead of time
18:03	eee	but is there something fancy I can do?
18:05	replaca	eee: what is the result you're looking for? are you recurring on three variables?
18:05	eee	yeah
18:05	eee	the second
18:05	eee	and third
18:05	eee	dependent on the first
18:05	eee	can you do that?
18:06	eee	or do I need to do the reduce in a let?
18:06	replaca	that's kind of what let's all about
18:06	eee	ok
18:06	replaca	so yeah, you need to wrap recur in a let and do the reduce there
18:07	eee	got it
18:07	replaca	but maybe you only want to recur on the heap itself
18:08	replaca	and just compute min and max at the top of the loop
18:08	replaca	(unless you already have them coming in)
18:08	eee	i'll show yah
18:08	lisppaste8	eee pasted "a-star" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79728
18:08	eee	http://paste.lisp.org/display/79728
18:09	eee	wow, it knew
18:10	replaca	yeah, that looks good
18:10	eee	thanks
18:14	eee	i can really see the power of this
18:16	eee	you can't really convince people that clojure is a good thing. it looks foreign. folks just have to try it
18:17	eee	and you guys are great
18:17	eee	talk to ya later
18:28	triddell	Compojure question: Does anyone know if it is still necessary to create routes to serve static files in the latest compojure?
18:29	dnolen	i think it is but it's pretty easy, just make a folder called public (where you start compojure) and add this route:
18:29	dnolen	(GET "/" (or (serve-file (: params)) :next))
18:29	dnolen	i put it as my first route.
18:31	triddell	dnolen: ok, thanks
18:32	dnolen	np
18:36	triddell	dnolen: I'm trying out compojure on google app engine and the app engine dev server wouldn't serve the static files... but including a public folder and this route worked!
18:37	dnolen	triddell: great! :)
18:38	triddell	but I don't think this route will be necessary when the app is run on the appspot servers (according to the blog post I'm working from) in case someone else refers to this answer, thanks again :-)
18:39	unlink1	I'd like to introduce a new field to clojure.lang.RT corresponding to the current working directory, so that that can be set by the client (say as a command line option). This would allow loading scripts via nailgun to work as expected.
18:41	unlink1	or at least as a parameter to loadResourceScript
18:41	unlink1	Then clojure.NGMain (or whatever) could set this appropriately
19:41	dysinger	bowchicka
20:02	eee	hi
20:03	eee	i'm sending in functions as parameters. now to use the function-params, do I have to do anything special or just make them the first arg of a parenthetical?
20:03	Chouser	just as you say
20:04	eee	cool
20:04	eee	so I think I just made a-star generic
20:04	eee	now just gotta learn about namespace
20:05	eee	Chouser, do you know anyone that does clojure talks, including for pay?
20:06	Chouser	Well, Rich does Clojure talks. I don't know if when or how much he might charge.
20:06	Chouser	Is that what you mean?
20:06	eee	yeah
20:06	eee	some folks I know are interested
20:07	eee	you talk to him a lot?
20:07	Chouser	I've done a Clojure talk, as have Stuart Halloway, Shawn Hoover, and a few others.
20:07	Chouser	Do I talk to Rich a lot? Not particularly. Mostly what is logged here. :-)
20:08	Chouser	eee: where are you?
20:08	eee	ok, so I've logged that I'm interested
20:08	Chouser	There's a clojure tutorial set on youtube, I think, as well as on peepcode (I think).
20:09	powr-toc	Does anyone else find that there biggest barrier to getting stuck-into clojure is assembling the basic project structure and dependencies together?
20:10	eee	TOTALLY
20:10	eee	no real IDE yet
20:10	eee	if it doesn't work with eclipse, it ain't ready
20:10	eee	but it's getting there
20:10	eee	follow the steps on the wiki
20:10	eee	and get that rlwrap going
20:10	Chouser	powr-toc: If you don't try to AOT compile, I've found there's hardly anything at all to set up.
20:11	eee	i never got as far as vim-clojure . . .wish I had. I like vim
20:11	powr-toc	I'm not after an IDE... I think it's just that when I hack for fun I don't want to have to continually jump through the hoops of setting up each project, its startup scripts and dependencies
20:11	dnolen	meh, things are really that much different with Python on Ruby, and personally I think setting up project structure is at least as easy as it is in Python.
20:11	dnolen	really aren't that much different, I mean.
20:12	eee	dude, py-dev for eclipse vs. clojure-dev?
20:12	eee	clojure is way harder
20:12	powr-toc	dnolen: but with ruby including a library is usually as simple as sudo gem install, and then you can just require it
20:12	eee	but still way awesome
20:14	powr-toc	now I'm not claiming that I want ruby gems... Perhaps just some simple tooling to help aggregate dependencies together onto a classpath
20:14	eee	no, I have to say powr-toc is right. lisp and clojure have terrible entries
20:14	dnolen	powr-toc: yes library management would be nice, I agree, still waiting for someone to do this ;)
20:14	eee	i couldn't get a lisp going to a satisfactory level for advanced AI on the weekend before the class so I dropped
20:14	powr-toc	dnolen: I don't even want anything that complicated
20:15	hiredman	you take the jars you want, put them in a directory, put all the jars in that directory in your classpath, done
20:16	Chouser	The java ecosystem has some good options in library management -- someone just has to tie one or more of them into Clojure well.
20:16	eee	yup . . . that part is easy. getting code completion, etc. isnt
20:17	unlink1	List out all the jars you ever want to have on your classpath, pass them to the nailgun server, and forget about it.
20:17	eee	(addressing hiredman)
20:17	powr-toc	unlink1: that's unsustainable and reeks of the old days of having a CLASSPATH env var :-\
20:18	hiredman	eee: emacs and vim both have very satisfactory code completion
20:18	unlink1	I was being tongue-in-cheek, but in fact, that is how you have to use nailgun.
20:18	powr-toc	unlink1: well I guess that's why I don't use it =)
20:18	eee	i haven't gotten it working yet
20:18	hiredman	powr-toc: uh, what do you mean "reeks of the old days"
20:19	unlink1	powr-toc: Is there really an alternative?
20:19	dnolen	powr-toc: yeah, I'd be happy if there was just a shell script that checked a server for available libraries and just downloaded them plus the jars. dump them into a .clojure directory, update a plaintext file of classpaths and be done with it. would make deploying my projects on Slicehost less repetitive.
20:19	Chouser	unlink1: surely you can use java.ext.dirs and just drop new .jars into the given directory?
20:19	dnolen	sounds like a project for Clojure AppEngine ;)
20:19	dysinger	There is starting to become some broken windows in clojure-contrib tests
20:19	eee	is there a CLojure App Engine?
20:19	hiredman	Chouser: has java.ext.dirs always been reliable for you?
20:19	dnolen	yeah, Clojure runs on Google App Engine now.
20:20	Chouser	hiredman: with one exception, yes.
20:20	eee	is there a link to that effect?
20:20	hiredman	...
20:20	powr-toc	hiredman: well in the early days of Java people used to say you should set a CLASSPATH environment variable for your system... That's generally acknowledged as being a very bad habbit
20:20	eee	there's a lot I just googled it
20:20	dnolen	eee: http://elhumidor.blogspot.com/2009/04/clojure-on-google-appengine.html
20:20	dnolen	is the best one.
20:21	dysinger	currently a half dozen blow ups and failures running the clojure-contrib tests :/
20:21	Chouser	hiredman: yeah, I can't remember. There was one .jar that I had to add to my classpath manually, but usually it isn't necessary.
20:22	hiredman	dysinger: feel free to fix them
20:22	eee	cool
20:22	dysinger	the person who broke them should feel even more free to fix them ;)
20:22	hiredman	Chouser: any idea why it is like that?
20:23	powr-toc	dnolen: unlink1 hiredman: I think I'm probably just moaning for the sake of it, but keeping ontop of this stuff is a problem... And I suspect it's why libraries like compojure and incanter ship with everything in the box
20:23	Chouser	hiredman: no. I should have noted the .jar at the time so that someone could track down the cause. But I didn't.
20:23	Chouser	<-- failed
20:24	eee	powr-toc, it's important
20:24	eee	i agree
20:25	eee	coworkers wanna start messing around but the environment isn't as inviting as python, and it needs to be a goal
20:25	eee	i think bundling clojure with a tiny vm might be a good idea, so it installs like python
20:25	hiredman	dysinger: if people who care about tests are unwilling to fix them, why should people who care less about tests?
20:26	powr-toc	so heres my process... 1) svn/git pull a project, 2) figure out what ant target I should run (if any) 3) run it 4) repeat for all dependencies 5) package dependencies into a project directory 6) finally think about coding
20:26	eee	http://jamvm.sourceforge.net/
20:26	dysinger	hiredman: not following you on that thought process
20:26	hiredman	powr-toc: the real problem there is lack of distributable jars
20:27	eee	jars aren't the same as "site-packages" in python
20:27	dysinger	It doesn't appear that clojure-people are too worried about tests - clojure has zero tests and over the the last 6 weeks I have seen bit-rot set in on the clojure-contrib tests
20:27	eee	or maybe they are ... is they a lib folder in jvm dir for global jars?
20:27	powr-toc	hiredman: yes, you've hit the nail on the head! This problem seems a smaller one in java beacause I just download the jar file into a projet lib dir
20:28	hiredman	dysinger: you obviously care about the tests, I don't particularly, so if you complain about broken tests my solution is: if you care about broken windows, fix them
20:28	hiredman	eee: yes
20:28	dysinger	how can you not care about tests hiredman ?
20:28	hiredman	it is very easy
20:29	hiredman	I assure you
20:29	dysinger	if you don't write serious code I guess it would be
20:29	eee	so i wanna some day recompile http://jamvm.sourceforge.net/ where it launches right into a repl
20:29	eee	that'd be the shizznl
20:30	eee	then you could just download clojure . . .instead of downloading java and then clojure
20:31	eee	maybe it could even include waterfront, or whatever that IDE is (I never got it to compile)
20:31	hiredman	if you really care so much, fix the tests, it is much more constructive then joining irc and bemoaning their brokeness
20:32	dysinger	hiredman I am looking at the tests - and I am also communicating that the tests are broke
20:32	dysinger	I'll do as I please
20:32	dysinger	telling me to fix the tests is constructive for you ?
20:33	dysinger	plz go back to your previous conversation
20:33	dysinger	not caring that unit tests are breaking and making a point to say you don't care about tests makes me not take you seriously
20:34	hiredman	shrug
20:38	unlink1	Clojure has no tests?
20:39	gnuvince_	unlink1: there are some in clojure-contrib
20:39	unlink1	but core has none?
20:39	hiredman	the core tests are in contrib
20:39	dnolen	nope, we Clojurians are the living unit tests.
20:42	unlink1	What unit of Clojure are you responsible for testing?
20:42	unlink1	And what command do I execute to get you to test after I've made a change?
20:43	eee	it's a matter of priorities
20:43	eee	i think that makes sense
20:44	unlink1	Where I'm from, tests make developing in the first place easier.
20:44	eee	for me that's true. in the heap i'm writing, I'm trying to add more and more tests
20:44	eee	but it's also true
20:44	eee	that the community will find bugs
20:45	eee	when they try to do stuff that should make sense
20:45	unlink1	It's true that the community will find bugs in the source tree published by Rich Hickey.
20:46	eee	and Rich should be slowly pulling things in from contrib . . . .which will be another pair of eyes
20:46	unlink1	But they won't find bugs in my local modification of clojure. I have to test that by hand.
20:46	eee	and then the community will eventually find bugs there, too
20:47	eee	oh yeah
20:47	eee	very true
20:47	unlink1	Which discourages third-party contributes.
20:47	unlink1	*contributions
20:47	eee	but
20:47	eee	very very hard to write 100% covering tests
20:48	eee	so . . . false sense of security?
20:48	unlink1	Nobody expects tests to give 100% coverage.
20:48	unlink1	They are understood to be a tool that aid the detection of regressions.
20:49	unlink1	If you don't have them at all, you have no such tool.
20:49	eee	i guess forking clojure isn't really in the plan
20:50	eee	also
20:50	eee	.
20:50	unlink1	Or 3rd party contributions?
20:50	eee	there seem to be a lot of those
20:50	rhickey_	what tests are failing?
20:50	rhickey_	ant -Dclojure.jar=/the/path/to/my/clojure.jar test
20:52	eee	ok so there are tests in the core after all that
20:52	eee	:0
20:56	eee	is the simplest namespace just, like (ns dir.structure) ?
20:57	eee	and in that, is "structure" the file you are in, or the dir you are in?
20:57	eee	and is it basically like a package so that everything in a dir is in a namespace?
20:58	eee	(or for a beginner, I can use it that way?)
20:58	dnolen	eee: simplest namespace is just (ns foobar)
20:59	eee	which is a dir?
20:59	dnolen	just the file
20:59	eee	oh
20:59	eee	i want to put two files in a folder under "src"
20:59	eee	one called "clj-algorithsm"
21:00	eee	and one called "solve_15_puzzle.clj"
21:00	dnolen	for two files you should probably add a folder to src
21:00	eee	(the first should have read, "clj_algotihms.clj")
21:00	eee	i did
21:00	dnolen	src/foo/* -> foo.* if src is on your classpath.
21:00	eee	oh I'm confused
21:01	eee	folder is "clj_algorithms"
21:01	eee	files are "a_star.clj"
21:01	eee	and "solve_15_puzzle.clj"
21:02	eee	so my namespace is (ns clj_algorithms)?
21:02	dnolen	clj-algorithms.a-star and clj-algorithms.solve-15-puzzle seems like the proper ns to me.
21:02	eee	well, clojure-dev doesn't seem to allow dashes in titles
21:03	eee	only underscores
21:03	eee	i mean in files
21:03	eee	so the files and the ns doen't need to match up?
21:03	dnolen	yes, that's the same for everyone I believe.
21:03	dnolen	underscores becomes dashes
21:03	eee	i see
21:04	eee	and my 15 requires the a-star?
21:06	dnolen	yes if that's how you have it setup.
21:08	eee	(ns clj-algorithms.solve-15-puzzle (:require [clj-algorithms.a-star :as a-star]))
21:09	dnolen	looks ok to me, hopefully you can test that line and get a nice happy nil value in return and not an error.
21:09	eee	i'll try
21:10	eee	it wasn't happy
21:10	dnolen	darn
21:10	eee	(ns clj-algorithms.a-star :import persistent_heap PersistentHeap)
21:10	dnolen	and src/ is on your class path?
21:10	eee	that is what I tried first
21:11	eee	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Keyword (a_star.clj:3) 1:1 user=> #<Namespace clj-algorithms.a-star> 1:2 clj-algorithms.a-star=>
21:11	hiredman	(ns clj-algorithms.a-star (:import (persistent_heap PersistentHeap)))
21:11	eee	oh
21:12	eee	then there's a typo in the docs
21:12	eee	http://clojure.org/libs
21:12	eee	i looked at "example lib"
21:12	hiredman	persistent_heap should maybe be persistent-heap
21:13	hiredman	eee: there is no typo
21:13	hiredman	(ns clj-algorithms.a-star (:import persistent_heap.PersistentHeap))
21:13	eee	in the example that in parens isn't ther
21:13	hiredman	uh
21:14	hiredman	I am looking at it, and they are
21:14	eee	oh yeah
21:14	eee	sorry
21:14	hiredman	(ns com.my-company.clojure.examples.my-utils (:import java.util.Date) ...
21:14	eee	infernal parens
21:14	eee	:)
21:14	eee	thanks
21:16	hiredman	you missed rhickey_ asking which tests are broken
21:17	eee	rhickey_ ant -Dclojure.jar=/the/path/to/my/clojure.jar test
21:17	eee	awesome.
21:17	eee	is a-star in the contrib yet?
21:21	eee	this language makes me hate going to work b.c. we don't use it there
21:22	eee	but at this point, I'd still need you guys in a chat window :)
21:26	eee	,(!= '1 '2)
21:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: != in this context
21:26	eee	,(not (= '1 '2))
21:26	clojurebot	true
21:26	eee	really?
21:30	eee	why isn't there a !=, clojurebot?
21:30	eee	:)
21:30	hiredman	,(not= 1 2)
21:30	clojurebot	true
21:30	eee	ah
21:30	eee	not to bad
21:30	hiredman	,((comp not =) 1 2)
21:30	clojurebot	true
21:31	dnolen	(def != not=)
21:33	eee	is this the best way to do this?
21:33	eee	(if (first goal-s)
21:33	eee	i used to just do (if goal-s
21:34	eee	infinite loop now
21:36	hiredman	(if (seq goal-s)
21:36	eee	ok
21:36	eee	i see in the docs now
21:37	eee	good ol google
21:37	eee	sorry
21:37	eee	seemed cool that you could go (if goal-s
21:38	hiredman	you might want to just switch calls to rest to next
21:38	eee	ok
21:38	eee	that's the lazy way
21:38	eee	right?
21:39	hiredman	rest is fully lazy, which is why you have to call seq on what it returns
21:39	eee	oh
21:39	hiredman	next is not lazy for the first item (but it is for the rest)
21:40	eee	now I can do (if goal-s
21:40	eee	you figured out i was using rest
21:47	dysinger	,(eval (eval '(list + 1 2 3)))
21:47	clojurebot	DENIED
21:47	dysinger	,(eval '(list + 1 2 3))
21:47	clojurebot	DENIED
21:51	dysinger	I wonder why (eval (eval '(list + 1 2 3))) works in 20090320 but not 1.0
21:54	hiredman	dysinger: works here
21:54	hiredman	Clojure 1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT
21:55	dysinger	hmm I'll try 1.1
21:59	hiredman	works on 1.0 here too
22:00	eee	,(find '("a" "b") "b")
22:00	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.util.Map
22:01	eee	,(get '("a" "b") "b")
22:01	clojurebot	nil
22:01	hiredman	,(doc find)
22:01	clojurebot	"([map key]); Returns the map entry for key, or nil if key not present."
22:01	hiredman	makes sense yes?
22:01	eee	i want to know wat position
22:02	hiredman	,(.indexOf '(a b) 'b)
22:02	clojurebot	1
22:02	eee	,(.indexOf '("a" "b") "b")
22:02	clojurebot	1
22:02	eee	nah, that's gotta be in clj
22:02	hiredman	it is clj
22:03	eee	,(index '("a" "b") "b")
22:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: index in this context
22:03	eee	,(clojure.set.index '("a" "b") "b")
22:03	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set.index
22:03	hiredman	use indexOf
22:03	eee	,(clojure.set.index (clojure.set ("a" "b")) "b")
22:03	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set.index
22:04	eee	grrrr
22:04	hiredman	,(.invoke (fn [] 1))
22:04	clojurebot	1
22:04	eee	what's that showing
22:05	hiredman	that function application is just a method call
22:05	eee	it's kindof a deal breaker at work to drop back to java for stuff like that
22:05	hiredman	oh please
22:05	hiredman	"drop back into java"
22:05	eee	they hate java
22:05	eee	that's their quote
22:05	hiredman	they are ignorant
22:05	danlei	i have (defn position [coll item] (.indexOf coll item)) in my tools ...
22:05	hiredman	most likely redneck hick racists
22:06	eee	check it into core danlei
22:06	eee	(if that is possible)
22:06	hiredman	they should grow and overcome their ignorance
22:06	dnolen	and if you don't need the behavior of .indexOf as an fn you can always write a macro: (defmacro index-of [coll x] `(.indexOf ~coll ~x))
22:06	hiredman	clojure is HOSTED on the jvm
22:06	danlei	eee: well, usually the philosophy over here is, that if some functionality already exists in java, it is not wrapped. i just always type position automatically, so i defined it ...
22:07	hiredman	that was part its design
22:08	eee	(ducking) and if I need a hammer I can mold one out of iron ore?
22:08	eee	j/k
22:08	danlei	dnolen: why should one use a macro here?
22:08	hiredman	clojurebot: literal [3] clojure
22:08	clojurebot	a very attractive hammer with a nice heft to it
22:10	hiredman	eee: you want to wrap a perfectly good hammer in a layer of plastic and label it "gravity driven energy delivery device"
22:10	eee	is .indexOf in C#?
22:10	eee	starts with capotol I
22:10	eee	in C#
22:11	eee	so host dependent
22:11	dnolen	daniel: personal pref really, one less fn call if you're not planning on using it as an fn.
22:11	eee	which is fine for, like gui stuff or something insane
22:11	eee	i bet it's in contrib somewhere
22:11	danlei	dnolen: prem..., well ok. :)
22:11	dnolen	daniel: very :)
22:12	dnolen	daniel: mostly I attribute it to laziness.
22:12	dysinger	hiredman
22:12	dysinger	Clojure 1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT
22:12	dysinger	user=> (= (eval (eval (quote (list + 1 2 3)))) 6)
22:12	dysinger	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
22:12	dysinger	user=>
22:13	dysinger	is this not what you see ?
22:13	dnolen	no so much index-of but (defmacro parse-int [str] `(Integer/parseInt ~str))
22:14	eee	google search ain't finding that nice marked up doc page for contribs yet
22:14	eee	can't find the docs for contribs
22:14	hiredman	dysinger: nope
22:14	hiredman	I see 6
22:14	hiredman	on 1.0 and 1.1
22:14	dysinger	here's 20090320
22:14	dysinger	tim-dysingers-macbook-pro:~ tim$ clj
22:14	dysinger	Clojure
22:14	dysinger	user=> (= (eval (eval (quote (list + 1 2 3)))) 6)
22:14	dysinger	true
22:14	dysinger	user=>
22:14	eee	http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/wiki/OverviewOfContrib
22:15	hiredman	dysinger: well that is not the test case you pasted earlier
22:15	hiredman	anyway
22:15	dysinger	1.1 are currenty 2 commits apart
22:15	hiredman	I get 6
22:15	dysinger	1.1 and 1.0
22:15	hiredman	on both
22:15	dysinger	you shouldn't get 6 you should get true
22:15	hiredman	I get six for the inner expression
22:16	hiredman	so of course I get true for the outer expression
22:16	dysinger	how could your 1.1 be different than mine ?
22:16	hiredman	you are doing it wrong?
22:16	dysinger	that's cute
22:16	hiredman	check you classpath
22:16	hiredman	your
22:17	hiredman	ant clean then rebuild
22:17	eee	would be cool if the contrib "includes?" returned the index instead of just true
22:17	dysinger	hiredman "check my classpath" lol
22:17	hiredman	yeah, make sure you are using the right jar
22:18	eee	how do you request a feature change to contrib?
22:18	dysinger	I am lightyears ahead of "the right jar"
22:18	dysinger	hiredman pastie your (System/getProperties) for me
22:19	hiredman	I have done this on two machines, one with openjdk7 and one with diablo-jdk1.6
22:20	dysinger	so let me see your system properties from a machine where 1.1 evals that above
22:20	hiredman	why?
22:21	dysinger	because it says a lot
22:22	hiredman	uh
22:22	hiredman	lisppaste8: url
22:22	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
22:22	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "properties" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79736
22:23	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #79736 "second machine" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79736#1
22:25	danlei	eee: btw, looking at it again, if you want to use position (defn position [coll item] (.indexOf (seq coll) item)) might be better. (position "abc" \c)
22:25	lisppaste8	hiredman annotated #79736 "third" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79736#2
22:26	dysinger	can anyone else besides hiredman verify that (= (eval (eval (quote (list + 1 2 3)))) 6) works on 1.0/1.1-SNAPSHOT ?
22:26	danlei	dysinger: => true
22:26	dysinger	wtf
22:27	eee	ok thanks danlei
22:27	clojurebot	true
22:27	dnolen	what are expecting to see dysinger?
22:27	dnolen	I see true as well.
22:28	dysinger	I get exception
22:28	eee	as long as indexOf works for all seqs
22:28	hiredman	~works on my machine
22:28	clojurebot	http://haacked.com/images/haacked_com/WindowsLiveWriter/IConfigMapPathIsInaccessibleDueToItsProt_1446B/works-on-my-machine-starburst.png
22:28	dnolen	dysinger: where are you pulling your sources from? svn or github?
22:28	dysinger	user=> (= (eval (eval (quote (list + 1 2 3)))) 6)
22:28	dysinger	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
22:28	dysinger	user=>
22:28	dysinger	svn
22:28	hiredman	how are you starting clojure?
22:29	dysinger	emacs
22:29	dysinger	but also tried java -jar clojure.jar XXX.YYY
22:29	eee	whatever version I have, it works
22:29	hiredman	where xxx.yyy is?
22:29	dysinger	ok I believe you -
22:29	eee	returned true
22:36	eee	i don't even know how to ask this
22:37	eee	do you have to quote all the way down?
22:37	eee	so like I want to send a list of lists to a function param
22:37	eee	do you just quote the outside?
22:37	hiredman	"send"
22:37	eee	or '('("a" "b") '("c" "d"))
22:37	hiredman	just the outside
22:38	eee	the outside keeps anything from being evaled?
22:39	eee	'(a b) '(c d))
22:39	eee	or expanded or whatever
22:39	lisppaste8	danlei pasted "position" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79737
22:39	eee	,'(a b) '(c d))
22:39	clojurebot	(a b)
22:39	eee	,'(a b) (c d))
22:39	clojurebot	(a b)
22:39	eee	,'((a b) (c d))
22:39	clojurebot	((a b) (c d))
22:39	eee	,a
22:39	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
22:40	eee	,'((a b) ())
22:40	clojurebot	((a b) ())
22:41	eee	,(let [q '((a b) ())] (first q))
22:41	clojurebot	(a b)
22:41	eee	,(let [q '((a b) ())] (second q))
22:41	clojurebot	()
22:45	danlei	hiredman: concerning that .indexOf returns a magic number (and yes, i consider this ugly), do you really think that something like "position" in core would be such a bad idea?
22:46	hiredman	yes
22:46	danlei	hm
22:46	eee	i found (includes?)
22:46	eee	you could just have that return the pos
22:46	eee	instead of true
22:46	hiredman	it is errecting a barrier between clojure and the environment it was built to inhabit
22:47	eee	also (includes?) is unnecessary by that argument . . .and so is a lot that is wrapped in core
22:47	danlei	well, but its a useful abstraction. position is more general, and more lispy. but i do see your point, don't wanna argument here.
22:47	hiredman	eee: correct
22:47	eee	but, it's more resilient to not assume it will always be java
22:48	eee	and
22:48	eee	assuming jvm is not the same as assuming java
22:48	eee	i think it's low priority to wrap some things, I agree
22:48	eee	and Rish points out that it's a pain to come up with docs when java already did it
22:49	technomancy	danlarkin: can you explain the difference between clojure-json and clojure.contrib.json?
22:49	eee	but . .. we be talkin about pos here, not some crazy gui thing
22:49	technomancy	apart from the fact that yours uses keywords keys and contrib uses string keys...
22:49	danlei	in this case, it's (in my opinion) not just wrapping. dealing with magic numbers in lisp code is not idiomatic, in my opinion. but thats maybe just personal preference, so i'll just put it in my toolbox and shut up now. :)
22:49	danlarkin	technomancy: the technical differences?
22:50	eee	yeah, I'll somewhat shut up, too.
22:50	hiredman	eee: clojure collections are all java Collections
22:50	technomancy	danlei: it's not just you; dealing with magic numbers is ridiculous
22:50	eee	but I try to represent python folks considering clojure
22:50	technomancy	danlarkin: I mean did you write yours before there was one in contrib, or did you write yours because the contrib one was too slow, or what?
22:50	eee	which isn't necessarily me . . . so having a strong argument is best
22:52	technomancy	danlarkin: btw, re the http lib; I split out the "get/post/put" etc functions into its own namespace so the main thing in http/client.clj is just the request functions
22:52	clojurebot	functions are maps
22:52	technomancy	clojurebot: thanks for sharing.
22:52	clojurebot	for is not used enough
22:53	technomancy	clojurebot: are you descended from Eliza?
22:53	clojurebot	Huh?
22:53	hiredman	eee: clojure is built on java/the jvm it was purpose built for that, a similar language on other architectures will be that, a similar language, but not clojure
22:53	technomancy	clojurebot: did you say "huh" because of your childhood?
22:53	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:53	danlarkin	technomancy: I wrote it before there was one in contrib, also clojure-json uses constant memory for encoding and (I think) contrib.json can overflow the stack with big JSON files (or it used to at least?), and clojure-json can do indenting, and have custom encoder functions for types it doesn't know about, etc
22:54	technomancy	danlarkin: cool; sounds handy
22:54	eee	i guess i'm making an extension of the java argument, compile once, run anywhere
22:55	danlarkin	oh, not to mention that clojure-json correctly deals with all json I've thrown at it, while contrib.json has some bugs
22:55	eee	jvm is written for it's host so java byte code doesn't have to be
22:55	technomancy	danlarkin: I just get the feeling that contrib has a serious neglect issue.
22:55	hiredman	eee: clojure compiles to jvm bytecode
22:55	eee	likewise it'd be cool to have a language that didn't care what vm it ran on
22:55	eee	pipe dream for some things . .. but pos isn't a pipe dream
22:55	eee	seems like a good goal
22:56	eee	as fundamental as "next"
22:56	eee	or "first"
22:56	eee	or "nth"
22:56	hiredman	it needs to be split
22:56	eee	i agree there
22:56	eee	it needs to be split
22:56	eee	if we are talking about contrib
22:56	hiredman	possible some kind of super package pulling most of contrib into one jar
22:57	technomancy	totally
22:57	eee	core-staging
22:57	technomancy	yeah, some kind of "candidates for contrib" would be useful
22:57	eee	or "core-candidates"
22:57	technomancy	then a "standard library" section
22:58	technomancy	then "deprecated" where we can move libraries whose tests don't pass.
22:58	technomancy	=)
22:58	eee	,(nth '(1 2 3) 2)
22:58	clojurebot	3
22:59	eee	if nth is there, it's inverse should be
22:59	eee	pos
22:59	eee	:)
22:59	danlei	just ask rich about it, when he is around
22:59	technomancy	I think the reluctance to put stuff in core makes more sense once you realize core.clj is _one_ file
22:59	replaca	danlarkin: are you currently a contributor (i.e. have signed a CA)?
23:00	danlarkin	replaca: yes
23:00	technomancy	and it's 4152 lines long
23:00	replaca	danlarkin: So we can just ptopose in the group that clojure-jsan replacee the current jsaon code
23:00	Puzzler	Quick question: In the SLIME Repl, I can't get println to work when it is called from a newly-spun thread. Any suggestions?
23:01	eee	i wonder what the impact of such a large file is
23:01	replaca	danlarkin: would you be in favor of that?
23:01	danlarkin	sure! breaking change to those using the current contrib.json, but quite alright with me
23:01	replaca	well, there's a discussion, but we know that's broken
23:02	replaca	there doesn't seem to be much reason to have competing versions
23:02	danlei	Puzzler: there was (slime-redirect-inferior-output), but i don't think that works atm
23:02	technomancy	danlarkin: breaking just because of string keys and different function names, or is it more?
23:02	technomancy	danlarkin: but yeah, I'd submit it for inclusion. this is one instance of choice is not helpful.
23:02	danlarkin	technomancy: and if they were relying on the broken behavior of current contrib.json
23:03	replaca	Probably we should write up a group posting about JSON
23:04	replaca	Stuart wrote the existing one (are you here Stuart?) but I don't know if he's attached to it or not
23:08	technomancy	danlarkin: would love to get your feedback on the "resourcefully" branch if you could take a look.
23:08	technomancy	I think there's a place for a higher-level API around the client
23:09	hiredman	http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2009-April/001648.html "When the Sun goes down what happens to the OpenJDK"
23:11	eee	do lists always make you insert at the beginning?
23:11	eee	i tried cons and conj
23:11	hiredman	yes
23:11	dnolen	vectors will add at the end.
23:12	eee	want my new stuff at the end
23:12	hiredman	that is a property of lists
23:12	danlei	eee: cons, by definition, conj, because it's cheapest for lists
23:12	eee	ok ok
23:13	eee	but how do I know I'm dealing with a vector from a function
23:13	danlei	btw, there is no guarantee that conj will always add at the end of a vector, is it?
23:13	eee	seems hard
23:13	hiredman	,(doc conj)
23:13	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
23:14	eee	uhg
23:14	danlei	hiredman: so, what does guarantee adding at the end?
23:14	eee	exactly
23:14	dnolen	daniel: it will always add the end, unless the vector gets coerced into something else
23:14	hiredman	danlei: conj will always add at the end of vectors
23:14	dnolen	if for some reason it gets coerced you can always bring it back with (into [] ...)
23:15	arohner	and you can tell what obj you have by doing (class obj), but I would be careful of making decisions based on that
23:15	arohner	,(class [])
23:15	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
23:15	danlei	dnolen: thanks, i use vec btw
23:15	hiredman	~def vec
23:16	danlei	in practice, it's clear to me, that conj will add at the end of a vector. maybe it's just nitpicking ...
23:17	eee	so now I DO have to quote the inner lists
23:18	eee	,(let [q ['(a b) '()]] (second q))
23:18	clojurebot	()
23:18	eee	,(let [q ['(a b) '()]] (first q))
23:18	clojurebot	(a b)
23:19	hiredman	eee: you can quote the vector
23:19	hiredman	,'[(a b)]
23:19	clojurebot	[(a b)]
23:19	eee	in my code, that was barfing . . guess it wasn't that
23:20	eee	,(let [q '[(a b) ()]] (first q))
23:20	clojurebot	(a b)
23:21	danlarkin	technomancy: it looks good, with-cookies would be very handy
23:21	technomancy	danlarkin: with-cookies could go into client.clj too
23:22	technomancy	you like the idea of splitting the two namespaces?
23:23	danlarkin	oh, I'm slightly confused then I guess, what's the idea behind splitting the namespaces?
23:24	technomancy	just that one's an API for lower-level stuff and resourcefully is more centered around interacting with REST services
23:24	technomancy	since you weren't too sure about adding get/put/post/delete etc to client
23:25	eee	this transition function is gonna hurt my brain tonight. that's a whole nother chapter for me
23:25	eee	thanks for all the explanations and help
23:25	danlarkin	so resourcefully.clj would be for defining wrapper methods get/post...etc around client.clj's request function?
23:25	technomancy	right
23:28	danlarkin	I'm still not convinced of the need for a function that wraps another just providing one argument... although if that's what people want...
23:28	technomancy	we'll play with it; see how it feels