#clojure – 2009-03-28

2009-03-28

01:18	slashus2	Raynes: Looks pretty bad.
01:20	slashus2	I don't see any tornado reports in Alabama as of 1512 UTC.
01:20	cmvkk_	Here in Kansas we're getting snow and sleet.
01:21	cmvkk_	oh well. if i can't go anywhere that just means i can work on coding all day
01:23	Raynes	slashus2: The severe weather is rather limited to south Alabama tonight. Around 5AM is when the real shit starts.
01:24	slashus2	Raynes: According to the storm prediction center, the greatest tornado risk is in Louisiana and Mississippi.
01:25	slashus2	Raynes: http://www.spc.noaa.gov/products/outlook/day1otlk.html
01:26	slashus2	valid through another 6 hours
01:26	Raynes	slashus2: I've already read everything. The severe weather risk for day 1 which is part of tonight is over there. Day 2 Saturday is the issue.
01:27	Raynes	They should update the Day 1 outlook at 1.
01:27	Raynes	1AM central time at least.
01:27	Raynes	I'm not sleeping tonight.
01:27	cmvkk_	i'm amazed to find that i don't understand the finer points of whether i'm holding onto the head of a lazy seq or not.
01:29	slashus2	Raynes: I always find tracking storms to be fun.
01:30	Raynes	slashus2: Me too. Until they are coming towards me, then it gets a little less exciting.
01:30	slashus2	That is the thrill ride.
01:31	slashus2	Going outside when you are under a tornado warning at night trying to spot a wall cloud.
01:31	cmvkk_	slashus2 is the kind of person who drives a pickup into a corn field to release a bunch of tiny robots into a tornado
01:31	Raynes	slashus2: That's called being stupid.
01:32	Raynes	At night, it's impossible to see anything. You can hardly ever see anything during the day in Alabama. Tornadoes are /always/ wrapped in rain.
01:32	slashus2	It wasn't raining outside.
01:33	slashus2	I wouldn't call it being stupid. Being curious. As long as one is knowledgeable about the behavior of storms.
01:34	Raynes	It's stupid if you don't know which direction you have to be in too see a tornado.
01:35	Raynes	to*
01:35	slashus2	I was paying close attention to the rotation of the storm.
01:35	slashus2	This is getting way off topic.
01:37	Raynes	Did you know that the tornado was not moving towards you at the time?
01:37	Raynes	We should totally make a channel #Weather
01:37	slashus2	Yes, the rotation was to the north.
01:38	Raynes	I wish they would update the day 1 outlook.
01:39	slashus2	You are correct that it was issued 5 hours ago.
01:39	slashus2	pretty outdated.
01:39	Raynes	It should be updated within the next 30 minutes.
01:40	Raynes	Virtually the entire state is under 45% risk for day 2. It will be upgraded to a moderate or high risk I'm sure.
01:44	Raynes	For the books, I live in northwest central Alabama. To be specific, extreme northwest Walker county.
01:48	Raynes	It's been updated.
01:49	slashus2	Raynes: Looks like NW Alabama may miss the brunt of the tornado onslaught.
01:50	Raynes	slashus2: I hope so.
01:51	Raynes	Just have to see what happens :\
02:03	Raynes	I don't trust the SPC.
02:03	slashus2	hehe
02:14	Raynes	duck1123: Why would you ever want to learn lojban?
02:18	cmvkk_	lojban is like the haskell of conlangs. it's totally pure, but nobody ever uses it for anything real
02:18	clojurebot	Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you compute.
02:19	cmvkk_	hello clojurebot
02:21	Raynes	cmvkk_: Haskell is awesome, but Clojure is awesomer from a "Holy shit, a functional language someone might actually use." point of view.
02:22	Raynes	clojurebot: 'Sup hiredman.
02:22	clojurebot	Titim gan �ir� ort.
02:22	Raynes	<3 You're still my hero.
02:25	cmvkk_	I keep opening stuff in vim then typing "C-x C-s" to try and save it, which causes vim to freeze up instead.
02:25	Raynes	What language is that :(
02:25	Raynes	I don't speak Clojurenerd quite as well as the others here just yet.
02:26	cmvkk_	what?
02:27	Raynes	cmvkk_: (= vim crap) true
02:28	cmvkk_	i like it about as well as emacs to be honest. i'm not a 'power user' by any means
02:28	cmvkk_	between it and anything else, it's the easiest editor to just quick open a file in the terminal in.
02:29	Raynes	I'm an Enclojure user. I don't judge.
02:32	Raynes	clojurebot: May you fall without rising.
02:32	clojurebot	I don't understand.
02:32	Raynes	Neither to I.
02:32	Raynes	:\|
02:38	Raynes	Did someone actually make a "Clojure vs Scala" thread.
02:38	Raynes	Haven't we had enough of those. :\
02:40	cmvkk_	now now, it's an important flamewar that we need to practice having over and over again, so that we're good at it once both languages get popular.
02:43	brennanc_	I was trying to explain the advantages of functional programming to a coworker (PHP guy). It was like trying to teach a fish what air is.
02:44	cmvkk_	brennanc_: the blub paradox?
02:44	brennanc_	is that something like the lamer it is the more they swear by it?
02:46	cmvkk_	it basically says people won't understand the features of another language if their language doesn't have those features,
02:46	Raynes	brennanc_: Fish breathe too :(
02:46	cmvkk_	or something like that...
02:53	hiredman	have you seen php's answer to lambda?
02:54	hiredman	it creates a function with random name, and returns that name as a string
02:54	Raynes	...
02:55	cmvkk_	if it works it works I guess
02:56	brennanc_	I saw something where they were proposing lambda syntax. The syntax for it looked really "noisy"
02:57	hiredman	almost makes me want to finish my lisp.php
02:57	hiredman	I think the only thing left is lexical and dynamic bindings
03:01	Raynes	hiredman: Touch me so some of your knowledge may rub off on me.
03:01	brennanc_	are there any tutorials on how to get emacs working with clojure support?
03:02	brennanc_	I'm using textmate but it's not indenting things correctly
03:02	hiredman	I would say something like "I am but a man" but that may be pompous
03:02	Raynes	brennanc_: There are more than I can count.
03:03	hiredman	clojurebot: clojure-install?
03:03	clojurebot	clojure is a language to use if you want to up your game
03:04	Raynes	clojurebot: clojure?
03:04	clojurebot	clojure is a language to use if you want to up your game
03:04	hiredman	http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/tree/master comes with some sort of "install clojure and make it all work for me" stuff
03:04	Raynes	I see what you did there.
03:09	brennanc_	what are some of the common editing setups / environments people use for coding clojure?
03:10	brennanc_	I'm really curious about emacs but I'm a complete noob. It looks a little overwhelming. I ordered one of the emacs books that should be arriving in the mail in a few days.
03:11	hiredman	I vim
03:17	mrsolo	yea a book is helpful
03:17	mrsolo	emacs has steep learning curve
03:17	brennanc_	more than vi?
03:17	mrsolo	yes
03:18	brennanc_	vi took me a week to get up to the proficiency level of MS notepad
03:18	brennanc_	of course, it probably would have been a lot faster if I didn't force myself to learn the home row arrow keys but I'm glad I did
03:19	mrsolo	emacs is a bit more involved
03:20	brennanc_	is it worth it or should I stick with vi?
03:20	hiredman	vim
03:20	Raynes	mrsolo: The learning curve isn't more than vim...
03:20	hiredman	you don't want vi
03:20	Raynes	If anything it's less.
03:21	Raynes	Saying Emacs is harder to use is pure speculation and opinion. I hear both Editors have good support for Clojure however.
03:21	mrsolo	well i dunno
03:21	mrsolo	i am wrong person to ask.
03:21	Raynes	So choose which ever one looks uglier.
03:21	mrsolo	i learned vim decades ago
03:21	hiredman	http://garbagehill.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/editor-learning-curves.jpg
03:21	mrsolo	and eamcs recently ... so i pretty much forgot vi learning curse
03:23	mrsolo	well eamcs has slime.. i heard vim has beefed up clojure support recently?
03:23	hiredman	http://img.skitch.com/20090108-8b31mucqnmb3wnpi1pg5wtd28i.png <-- is pretty impressive for a text editor
03:23	Raynes	mrsolo: Type 'Emacs' slower ;). Vim got VimClojure. It's supposed to be hawt.
03:23	mrsolo	brennanc: it is worth learning both
03:27	Raynes	hiredman: Mac user.
03:27	hiredman	me/
03:28	hiredman	?
03:28	Raynes	Yes.
03:28	Raynes	Yoiu.
03:28	Raynes	You*
03:28	hiredman	I couldn't afford a mac
03:29	Raynes	Oh, I thought that was your screenshot.
03:29	hiredman	nope
03:30	hiredman	a xmpp client, with avatar support, in your text editor
03:30	hiredman	crazy
03:31	mrsolo	naw :-)
03:31	mrsolo	emacs does it all
03:40	cmvkk_	I wonder if it's a bad idea to write my documentation at 2:30am
03:41	cmvkk_	am i gonna wake up tomorrow morning, look at it and go "what the hell"
03:41	cmvkk_	"that sentence doesn't make any sense"
03:56	Raynes	Writing doc strings when you are tired is a mistake. The proves itself true more often that I can stress.
03:57	cmvkk_	Heh. You're right, and I wasn't even doing that. I was writing the readme file.
04:15	Raynes	I Hate People Who Capitalize Every Single Word.
04:28	texodus	what rv?
08:46	leafw	anybody can point to usage of -> ?
08:46	leafw	I never get it right, and the doc is too high level for me
08:47	leafw	and example is worth 10 docs
08:53	laurum	leafw: For example the following expressions have the same result: (f1 (f2 (f3 x))) (-> x f3 f2 f1)
08:55	leafw	and applied to a map?
08:55	laurum	it calls a series of functions, passing the result of each as an argument to the next
08:56	Raynes	slashus2: Looks like I might live through the next round of storms due in here soon. :D
09:09	cgrand	leafw: (-> {:a {:b {:c 1}}} :a :b :c) yields 1 (this works only with keywords)
09:10	cgrand	(-> {"a" {"b" {"c" 1}}} (get "a") (get "b") (get "c")) when keys aren't keywords
09:11	leafw	cgrand: nice example. So that's for reading. Can one put in to :c some value, and get the returned new map?
09:18	cgrand	leafw: I don't know of a -> base idiom deep association, you have to use assoc-in
09:26	cgrand	(now without missing words and letters) I don't know of a -> based idiom for deep association, you have to use assoc-in
09:33	qwert666	i have defined a m symbol (defn m) and then i hit (name m) what is wrong with it , the doc is saying that i can pass a symbol ... ? i`m passing a symbol so it should work... i mean with the (name (gensym)) it works fine why not with the m symbol ?
09:40	leafw	cgrand: thanks, assoc-in does it.
09:42	Chousuke	qwert666: m is not a symbol. 'm is
09:42	cgrand	qwert666: (name 'm) ; without the quote, m is resolved
11:36	rhickey	lpetit: sorry, I got called away last night
11:43	AWizzArd	Chousuke: apropos symbol: it seems that symbols are not allowd to start with a digit
11:44	AWizzArd	,'3*x
11:44	clojurebot	Invalid number: 3*x
11:44	AWizzArd	,'x*3
11:44	clojurebot	x*3
11:44	AWizzArd	so (def 3x ( 3 x)) is not allowed
12:07	blbrown	is rhickey here?
12:13	blbrown	I was trying to see if there is a way to load SCRIPT A and then load SCRIPT B which depends on SCRIPT A but not have to reload SCRIPT A more than once. Kind of cache script A through java code. http://paste.lisp.org/display/77719
12:41	AWizzArd	hi kotarak
12:41	kotarak	hi Wizz
12:45	AWizzArd	blbrown: your point is interesting. Just yesterday I was wondering if any double loading needs to happen if require libs A, B, C and X, Y, Z, where A, B and C also require/use themselves X, Y and Z.
12:46	AWizzArd	if require ==> if I require
12:46	kotarak	X,Y,Z should be loaded only once.
12:47	AWizzArd	this is typically what I want
12:47	AWizzArd	although, now as we talk about this: what if Z changes during runtime?
12:48	kotarak	If the rest references the Vars of Z (not taking it's value), the new Z code will be used.
12:49	cmvkk_	you can also do (require :reload ...) to reload stuff
12:49	kotarak	and :reload-all...
12:50	kotarak	I think there was some difference between (send agent z/some-fun) and (send agent #'z/some-fun). But I'm not sure, whether IIRC.
12:51	kotarak	The first using the value, while the second using the new code, when z is reloaded. But as I said: only some dark shadows of memory... Might be wrong.
13:02	brennanc_	how do I undefine something?
13:03	brennanc_	I'm trying to load some external code and it's complaining it already exists in the REPL's user namespace
13:04	kotarak	(doc ns-unmap)
13:04	clojurebot	Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace.; arglists ([ns sym])
13:04	brennanc_	thanks
13:05	slashus2	,(reduce #(concat %1 [%2]) [] (range 3500))
13:05	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:java.lang.StackOverflowError
13:06	cmvkk_	what's going on with that is that concat returns a lazy-seq.
13:06	cmvkk_	so when you reduce that way, you just have lazy-seq on top of lazy-seq and so on
13:07	slashus2	,(reduce + (reduce #(conj %1 %2) [] (range 3500)))
13:07	clojurebot	6123250
13:09	cmvkk_	,(last (reduce #(doall (concat %1 [%2])) [] (range 3500)))
13:09	clojurebot	3499
13:09	cmvkk_	if you add a doall, it stops blowing the stack.
13:10	cmvkk_	conj works too, because it isn't lazy in the first place.
13:10	slashus2	So doall forces concat to realize?
13:10	kotarak	(dfoc doall)
13:11	kotarak	(doc doall)
13:11	clojurebot	When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, retains the head and returns it, thus causing the entire seq to reside in memory at one time.; arglists ([coll] [n coll])
13:11	kotarak	(doc dorun)
13:11	clojurebot	When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, does not retain the head and returns nil.; arglists ([coll] [n coll])
13:18	cmvkk_	it's interesting because it's a gotcha that there's no real fix for.
13:18	cmvkk_	if something takes a lazy-seq and makes a new lazy-seq that uses it, you shouldn't compound calls to it.
13:19	cmvkk_	and that's all you can say.
14:05	slashus2	cmvkk_: A gotcha of lazy sequences. It is a good thing to know.
14:49	johnw	do the docs on clojure.org talk about how to use pattern matching anywhere?
14:49	cmvkk_	do you mean regexes?
14:50	johnw	no, I mean functional programming-style pattern matching
14:50	johnw	i think it's (defn foo [x] ([x] ..) ([x & rest] ..))
14:50	johnw	or does clojure not do this?
14:51	cmvkk_	that's not really built in, per se.
14:51	cmvkk_	you can define functions with multiple arities like that.
14:51	cmvkk_	but that's just multiple arities, not pattern matching as a whole.
14:51	johnw	oh
14:51	johnw	i see
14:51	cmvkk_	on the other hand, there is destructuring which works kind of like that
14:51	cmvkk_	and you can do that inside function arguments... a la (defn foo [x & xs] ...)
14:52	cmvkk_	docs for that are maybe under 'let'?
14:52	johnw	k, thanks
14:52	cmvkk_	which would be on the special forms page.
14:52	dnolen	also you have multimethods which allow to define what you want to dispatch on.
14:53	dnolen	,(doc defmulti)
14:53	clojurebot	"([name docstring? attr-map? dispatch-fn & options]); Creates a new multimethod with the associated dispatch function. The docstring and attribute-map are optional. Options are key-value pairs and may be one of: :default the default dispatch value, defaults to :default :hierarchy the isa? hierarchy to use for dispatching defaults to the global hierarchy"
15:16	AWizzArd	~seen jcowan
15:16	clojurebot	no, I have not seen jcowan
15:30	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
15:30	kotarak_	Hi Lau
15:32	Lau_of_DK	I just tried installing Linux Mint - Its pretty cool, but Im in the wrong IRC client, brb
15:32	Lau_of_DK	There we go :)
15:33	kotarak_	Lau_of_DK: you are switching linux distro far more often than I change my shirt. ;)
15:33	Lau_of_DK	thats.... pretty disgusting
15:34	AWizzArd	Lau, do you install those Linuxes in VirtualBox?
15:34	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd, Nope - I have my /home on a separet partition, so I just flush /
15:35	AWizzArd	kotarak: please check if any windows on your compi were updated
15:35	kotarak	AWizzArd: ??? What do you mean?
15:35	AWizzArd	the one with the cat icon
15:36	kotarak	Ah ok. Sorry.
15:37	Lau_of_DK	Im actually considering trying to isntall OpenBSD - I attended a security lecture from some of their community regulars... Raised some interesting points
15:37	Lau_of_DK	In the Linux world - Nothing beats Arch Im sure
15:38	kotarak	Hmmmm... I saw people ripping OpenBSD apart. With some very bad code down the kernel...
15:38	Lau_of_DK	Sounds unlikely
15:38	Lau_of_DK	Present your evidense Mr. Kota
15:38	Lau_of_DK	And I'll present a spell-checker :)
15:38	AWizzArd	I think the Kernel was not written in Clojure. It must be bad then.
15:39	Lau_of_DK	true - A part of the lecture covered some arguments for using strlcpy for copying bytes, instead of strcpy or strncat...... I was half-asleep while thinking 'come on, this is 2008, get over it'
15:39	cmvkk_	oh man what kind of freaky operating system would that
15:39	cmvkk_	be
15:39	AWizzArd	:)
15:39	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: Ah. I don't remember it was three or four years back. Concerning integer overflow and casting int to uint unsafely and such things. I'm not an expert....
15:39	AWizzArd	cmvkk_: there were for many years Lisp Machines
15:39	Lau_of_DK	kotarak, Integer overflow is probably the most widely exploitable bug there is today, not specific to OpenBSD
15:40	Lau_of_DK	However OpenBSD is probably uniquely protected from Bufferoverflows
15:43	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: And the performance of OpenBSD seemed very bad in a comparison, where Linux and FreeBSD performed roughly similar, NetBSD slightly worse and OpenBSD more or less broke completely down... kotarakisnoexportanddoesn'tknowhowmuchtruthisinthis
15:43	Lau_of_DK	eh?
15:44	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: let me see....
15:44	Lau_of_DK	You compare Linux and FreeBSD? Linux covers everything from Gentoo, Arch to Slackware to Ubuntu/PC-Linux and such...
15:44	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, if there's not a heavy performance gain then I wont even try it out - I wanted something that could match Arch
15:50	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: Linux is also a kernel, which provides certain functionality for all distros. Here is what I remembered. It's quite out-dated now.... So read at your own risk ;) http://bulk.fefe.de/scalability/
15:51	Lau_of_DK	Amazing.... Ive never seen that ugly charts before
15:51	kotarak	Well they are ugly, but there is no junk.
15:51	kotarak	I've seen much more "prettier" charts only consisting of chart junk.
15:52	Lau_of_DK	hehe
15:52	Lau_of_DK	Interesting, that you chose to mention that :)
15:52	kotarak	What?
15:52	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, lets talk shop
15:53	Lau_of_DK	If its not Swing/AWT and its not Qt - What is it that I can develop Java UIs in ?
15:53	kotarak	SWT?
15:53	leafw	Lau_of_DK: SWT
15:53	Lau_of_DK	SWT?
15:53	leafw	Lau_of_DK: clipse toolkit.
15:53	leafw	s/clipse/eclipse/
15:54	Lau_of_DK	k - any pros compared to Swing?
15:55	leafw	Lau_of_DK: SWT is, IMO, not worth it. No threaing issues, but has a native component to it that must be installed separately for each platform.
15:56	Lau_of_DK	ouch
15:56	Lau_of_DK	Thats sounds bad
15:56	Lau_of_DK	Im just not liking Swing very much, it seems laggy and somewhat ugly - and Qt is great, but depends on Jambi, which is quite large
15:57	leafw	only AWT remains, but it's quite limited.
15:57	leafw	Swing is OK if you understand its threading model.
15:58	leafw	in short, any swing-related operations must be done in a Runnable that is executed by the SwingUtilities.invokeLater(runnable);
15:58	Lau_of_DK	Seems simple enough
15:58	leafw	it's quite fault-tolerant too, so it will work fine in most situations even when ignoring its threading model.
15:58	Lau_of_DK	leafw, Is it also laggy in your experience?
15:58	Lau_of_DK	sluggish is more the word
15:59	leafw	not in my experience.
15:59	leafw	jdk 1.6.0 repaints swing components very fast.
15:59	leafw	if you use images, be sure to learn how to use VolatileImage for super fast transparencies and what not.
15:59	leafw	(graphic card resident images)
16:00	Lau_of_DK	I'll remember that, thanks
16:03	Lau_of_DK	kotarak, , this isnt signed, but it looks like your handy work? http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1112
16:09	cconstantine	Say I wanted to make a compiled clojure program, how would I go about doing that?
16:09	blbrown	,doc compile
16:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/doc
16:09	blbrown	,(doc compile)
16:09	clojurebot	"([lib]); Compiles the namespace named by the symbol lib into a set of classfiles. The source for the lib must be in a proper classpath-relative directory. The output files will go into the directory specified by compile-path, and that directory too must be in the classpath."
16:10	Lau_of_DK	cconstantine, try downloading clojure from SVN, type "ant", watch it compile, mimic that structure + build.xml in your own project
16:12	cconstantine	thanks
16:14	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: sorry. I'm more or less afk. What was it with this link?
16:15	Lau_of_DK	Just a guy who wrote a command-line formatting utility which instead of yes/no prompts, asked you to type "Yes Mother, I do want to format my drive." - and by a mistake, this was widely used in an asian factory, resulting in the workers having little notes with this sentense written on, in order to remember it
16:16	kotarak	Hehe. Could happen in other companies, too. ;)
16:18	blbrown	Lau_of_DK, you have an idea on this. I want to load script B at the bottom but only have it loaded once and then load other scripts and still have script B 'cached'. within that clojure instance. http://paste.lisp.org/display/77719
16:20	Lau_of_DK	(load "b") doesnt do it for you ?
16:21	blbrown	Lau_of_DK, you know how to do that from Java code
16:21	Lau_of_DK	I've seen it done, but I forgot how - I think you might be able to find an old snippit in the paste-bin from Rich regarding this, or check out docs for Enclojure
16:22	blbrown	Lau_of_DK, even something like java:CurrentClojureInstance?.runScript("(load 'b')"); would wokr
16:22	blbrown	ok
16:22	Lau_of_DK	Sorry - Dont remember specifically
16:22	Lau_of_DK	Its a form of loadResource I believe
16:22	blbrown	ah, I saw that method
16:27	Lau_of_DK	I have a weird problem with Compojure - I have html form {:action "/" :method "POST" :id "foo"} which when posting, gives an empty {} as params... what gives?
16:28	AWizzArd	Lau: have you tried a similar thing before, and did it work then?
16:28	Lau_of_DK	Yes and yes
16:28	Lau_of_DK	I have an almost identical setup in a another compojure program, which runs without any problems
16:29	AWizzArd	ok, so in principle it should work, and it worked for you in the past. But this time it does not do what you expected.
16:29	lpetit	rhickey: no problem, I slept a little then, and today I'm not that sure that the solution I had envisioned would be that easy, and that universal. So since I'm not myself currently faced to the problem, I'll delay rethinking about that when I personnaly am concerned with it.
16:33	AWizzArd	Btw, Lau_of_DK, is there a book or detailed tutorial for Compojure?
16:33	blbrown	Lau_of_DK, you can use my web framework...when I am done with it. It is more 'java' oriented though
16:34	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd, They have a pretty good wiki site set up now, and Technomancys concourse is fantastic (github)
16:38	danlarkin	get outta here with your competing "web framework", blbrown :D
16:40	cmvkk_	no matter how competitive, we all know the first truly successful framework will be the first one with a rails ripoff name.
16:40	cmvkk_	'clojure on clouds' or something.
16:40	blbrown	danlarkin, don't worry I don't generally tend to finish things but there are things that I want to add to a framework. Plus, compojure is pure clojure. Mine won't be. I am using existing j2ee libraries
16:42	cconstantine	I'm trying to compile a clojure file via "java -cp <paths to clojure .jars> clojure.lang.Compile clojure-source.clj" and it's not working
16:42	blbrown	"and it's not working" I cringe when I hear that in IRC
16:42	cconstantine	the error I'm geting is: "ERROR: Must set system property clojure.compile.path"
16:43	cconstantine	blbrown: I say that because the error I'm getting isn't all that helpful ;)
16:43	blbrown	actually, it is pretty accurate. on the command line try -Dclojure.compile.path=classes (maybe make a classes directory)
16:44	cconstantine	accurate almost never means helpful :P
16:44	cconstantine	I'l try that
16:44	blbrown	good point
16:46	cconstantine	same error
16:48	cconstantine	this is not being done through ant... if that helps
16:50	cconstantine	,(doc compile)
16:50	clojurebot	"([lib]); Compiles the namespace named by the symbol lib into a set of classfiles. The source for the lib must be in a proper classpath-relative directory. The output files will go into the directory specified by compile-path, and that directory too must be in the classpath."
16:54	Lau_of_DK	...seems in the latest version of compojure, POST parameters are taken from "name" not "id"
16:56	blbrown	isn't that standard HTML. where you have an input field and the input fields are identified by the 'name' attribute
16:57	danlarkin	blbrown: indeed
16:59	cconstantine	any other ideas on how to set the clojure.comp.path property?
17:01	Mec	is that the same as the compile-path?
17:01	cconstantine	no idea, I got an error saying it needs to be set
17:02	hiredman	~def clojure.lang.Compile
17:04	hiredman	cconstantine: how have you tried setting it?
17:05	cconstantine	-Dclojure.compile.path
17:05	cconstantine	evidently it has to be one of the first arguments to java
17:06	hiredman	is there a reason you are using clojure.lang.Compile directly?
17:07	cconstantine	I want to make a compiled clojure program
17:07	cconstantine	.jar/.class whatever I can run directly
17:07	hiredman	use compile
17:07	blbrown	cconstantine, so it worked. You will get there that is why I didnt say anything. Basically you need that value set for clojure to compile the classes to. And there are several different ways to do it
17:07	hiredman	java clojure.main -e "(compile 'some.name.space)"
17:08	cconstantine	yeah, I got that set now I'm getting other wierdness
17:08	cconstantine	that was for blbrown
17:08	cconstantine	hiredman: trying now
17:08	cconstantine	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate prob_4__init.class or prob_4.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:09	cconstantine	prob_4.clj is the name of the file prob_4 ns is defined in
17:09	hiredman	you need to set your classpath of course
17:09	hiredman	cconstantine: do you have a good namespace declaration?
17:09	hiredman	~namespace
17:09	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
17:10	cconstantine	is "(ns prob_4)" good?
17:10	hiredman	no
17:10	blbrown	hehe
17:10	hiredman	cconstantine: for a few reasons
17:10	hiredman	one of which clojurebot just told you
17:11	blbrown	the standard for java packages is normally '<com/org>.<company name>.<project>.WHATEVER'
17:11	hiredman	the other reason is something that may not be a reason
17:11	cmvkk_	as an aside, that format doesn't make sense from a free software perspective does it?
17:12	hiredman	dashes in namespaces are mapped to underscores in filenames
17:12	blbrown	cmvkk_, not necessarily, but yea, I guess you could leave off the company name
17:12	hiredman	not sure about underscores in namespaces
17:12	hiredman	I've been using hiredman.*
17:13	cmvkk_	it seems like bad practice to hardcode the author's name or organization into any piece of code, and if the first unit is always com/org, why even bother?
17:13	blbrown	i just hate naming files/directories with minus '-'
17:13	cmvkk_	i think for clojure, project.file is a good enough format.
17:13	hiredman	cmvkk_: one of the original ideas of java was the jvm could go out and find the classes it was looking for
17:14	blbrown	muahahhaa
17:14	hiredman	so package names where basically urls
17:14	hiredman	were
17:14	cmvkk_	yeah, i get that. that still seems like a bad idea, though...
17:14	hiredman	needless to say, this never took off
17:14	cmvkk_	because now, if your website name changes, all the code has to change too!!
17:15	cmvkk_	and all the code for everything that uses that library, etc.
17:15	hiredman	cmvkk_: luckily sun has hung onto their websites
17:15	blbrown	yea, if you are insane. I see a lot of people do that when they move from sourceforge projects. I say, why have to completely rename your package structure
17:16	hiredman	http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc4151.html
17:17	Lau_of_DK	Anybody here been able to work out, how compojures (decorate-with) works ?
17:17	cconstantine	right, so in the meantime I have a single clj file I want to compile that desn't have anything to do with the internet
17:17	blbrown	hehe
17:18	hiredman	shrug
17:19	cmvkk_	this is why namespace-dependent stuff annoys me in general... it doesn't make sense for throwaway stuff.
17:19	hiredman	in clojure you compile namespaces not files
17:19	cmvkk_	there should be a (compile-file "foo.clj") that just works for foo.clj.
17:20	cmvkk_	i guess that wouldn't work with java, though, since the compiled stuff has to have a namespace of some sort
17:20	hiredman	why compile things that are "throwaway"?
17:21	brennanc_	you guys know of any good templating systems like smarty for lisp/clojure? I'd like to allow the user to submit a page that has runnable code but don't want it to be anything that he can cause damage to the system or that could get stuck in infinite loops or hog resources.
17:21	cconstantine	how do I see what the current namespace is from within clojure?
17:21	hiredman	ns
17:21	hiredman	,(doc ns)
17:21	clojurebot	"; A clojure.lang.Namespace object representing the current namespace."
17:21	cmvkk_	,ns
17:21	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
17:22	cconstantine	erm, classpath
17:22	hiredman	System/getProperty
17:22	blbrown	cmvkk_, at least the project name is a relevant namespace <clojure>.file.clj. because you avoid conflicts and it REALLY is in a different namespace. I never put anything in a default namespace/package even for throwaway code
17:23	blbrown	sacrelig!
17:23	cmvkk_	blbrown, I agree. If i'm writing a file or whatever, I make up something dumb at least
17:23	cmvkk_	although this usually amounts to (ns cmvkk.blah)
17:23	slashus2	You have to do a gen-class before you can compile something?
17:24	hiredman	nope
17:24	hiredman	gen-class, if you use it, happens when you run compile, otherwise it s nop
17:25	slashus2	You are talking about compiling into a .class file?
17:25	hiredman	explinations get a little tricky here
17:26	hiredman	because clojure is always compiled to jvm byte code which is what a .class file is
17:26	slashus2	yeah
17:26	Mec	anyone know the O of (set )
17:26	hiredman	but that byte code is not written to disk unless you use compile
17:27	hiredman	~def set
17:27	hiredman	,(class (set '(a)))
17:27	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
17:27	hiredman	it just has to compare the hashcode I guess
17:28	hiredman	but it has to walk what you pass it, so maybe n?
17:29	hiredman	gen-class generates a, erm, named class? in the sense that you give the class a meaningful name instead of just a random number clojure generates for the classes it generates under the hood
17:29	Mec	well im running out of heapspace so guess it doesnt matter how long it will take
17:30	cmvkk_	you can't 'run' a class generated without genclass, right?
17:30	cmvkk_	i.e. java foo__1234.class or whatever
17:30	hiredman	cmvkk_: I am usre if you really tried you could
17:30	hiredman	sure
17:30	cmvkk_	well it would have to have a main method right? and those Fn classes don't do they?
17:31	hiredman	oh, if you mean cannot run by calling java on the command line, sure
17:31	Mec	anyone familiar with clojurebox know how to change the size of the heap space?
17:32	hiredman	but they are java classes, so I am sure from java you could instantiate them
17:32	cmvkk_	right.
17:33	kotarak	cmvkk_: you can specify generation of a main method via (gen-class ... :main true ...) resp. (gen-class ... :main false ...)
17:39	kotarak	cmvkk_: sorry misread your message...
17:44	slashus2	I can't even get the gen-class Example to work.
17:47	slashus2	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.examples.hello$_main__4 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:51	slashus2	This is highly frustrating.
17:58	stuhood	slashus2: you have everything on the classpath that you need, right? the output directory for your classfiles is easy to miss
17:59	slashus2	It worked after I added the classes directory.
17:59	slashus2	thanks
17:59	slashus2	Sometimes the classpath stuff is a pain.
18:01	blbrown	,(doc comment)
18:01	clojurebot	"([& body]); Ignores body, yields nil"
18:02	blbrown	can you load the comment body through code. say if you want to print the file comment
18:16	stuhood	~defn print-doc
18:16	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:16	stuhood	~def print-doc
18:16	stuhood	,(:doc min)
18:16	clojurebot	nil
18:17	hjlee	,(doc min)
18:17	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the least of the nums."
18:18	stuhood	yea... i'm trying to answer blbrown's question: that prints the doc, so i'm trying to get it as a string
18:18	stuhood	,(:doc (var min))
18:18	clojurebot	nil
18:19	stuhood	,(:doc (var ^min))
18:19	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
18:20	stuhood	,(:doc ^(var min))
18:20	clojurebot	"Returns the least of the nums."
18:20	stuhood	sigh
18:22	blbrown	if I put (comment \n ;lksjdkflskdjfskl \n ) at the top of a file, I guess I can't get that comment
18:31	stuhood	blbrown: the reader would be able to get it, but it would throw it away immediately
18:34	stuhood	blbrown: and it doesn't look like you can attach metadata to the namespace
18:36	hiredman	,(class ns)
18:36	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Namespace
18:36	stuhood	,(with-meta ns {:comment "Hello World"})
18:36	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Namespace cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IObj
18:37	hiredman	,(map #(.getName %) (.getMethods (class ns)))
18:37	clojurebot	("findOrCreate" "getMappings" "importClass" "refer" "findInternedVar" "lookupAlias" "removeAlias" "toString" "getName" "intern" "find" "remove" "unmap" "getMapping" "addAlias" "getAliases" "all" "alterMeta" "resetMeta" "meta" "wait" "wait" "wait" "hashCode" "getClass" "equals" "notify" "notifyAll")
18:37	stuhood	hmm
18:37	hiredman	,(ancestors (class ns))
18:37	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.IMeta java.lang.Object clojure.lang.AReference clojure.lang.IReference}
18:37	stuhood	so it contains mutable metadata?
18:37	hiredman	,(doc alter-meta)
18:37	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: alter-meta in this context
18:37	hiredman	,(doc vary-meta)
18:37	clojurebot	"([obj f & args]); Returns an object of the same type and value as obj, with (apply f (meta obj) args) as its metadata."
18:38	hiredman	,(vary-meta ns assoc :a 1)
18:38	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Namespace cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IObj
18:38	hiredman	hmmm
18:38	slashus2	,(doc alter-meta!)
18:38	clojurebot	"([iref f & args]); Atomically sets the metadata for a namespace/var/ref/agent/atom to be: (apply f its-current-meta args) f must be free of side-effects"
18:38	hiredman	ah!
18:38	stuhood	sweeet
18:38	hiredman	,(alter-meta! ns assoc :a 1)
18:38	clojurebot	{:a 1}
18:38	hiredman	,(meta ns)
18:38	clojurebot	{:a 1}
18:39	slashus2	oh dear..
18:39	stuhood	hiredman: that probably wiped out whatever metadata was already attached to the ns
18:39	hiredman	,(alter-meta! ns assoc :killroy-was-here true)
18:39	clojurebot	{:killroy-was-here true, :a 1}
18:39	hiredman	nah
18:39	stuhood	hiredman: if it had any
18:39	slashus2	It didn't have anything.
18:39	hiredman	(apply assoc (meta ns) :a 1) would not wipe out anything in the metadata map
18:40	stuhood	ahh, indeed... my bad
18:40	slashus2	(meta ns) is nil
18:40	stuhood	blbrown: to attach a comment to a file, make sure the contents of a file are part of a namespace, and then attach metadata to the namespace like we did above
18:42	hiredman	stuhood: he seems to wnat a literal comment
18:42	hiredman	not a docstring
18:43	stuhood	well, he wanted to get it programmatically, and i don't think he'll be able to achieve that with (comment) without modifying the reader
18:44	hiredman	~def comment
18:45	kotarak	comment is actually a macro.
18:45	slashus2	simple macro
18:46	stuhood	yea... so in order to get the contents, he'd have to write another macro that nullified the effect of (comment)
18:47	stuhood	it'd be interesting if (comment) attached your comment to the metadata of whatever var/namespace it was in
18:49	hiredman	(defmacro comment [&body] (alter-meta! ns update-in [:comments] assoc (str body)) nil)
18:49	hiredman	,(doc update-in)
18:49	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
18:49	hiredman	oh
18:49	hiredman	wiat
18:49	hiredman	(defmacro comment [&body] (alter-meta! ns update-in [:comments] conj (str body)) nil)
18:50	hiredman	,(update-in {} [:comments] conj :a)
18:50	clojurebot	{:comments (:a)}
18:52	stuhood	heh, ask and ye shall receive
18:53	kotarak	Isn't the docstring of the namespace sufficient?
18:54	stuhood	kotarak: yea, should be: changing (comment) was just a fun whatif
19:11	slashus2	Looks like javamail became open source March 2. That is neat.
19:22	stuhood	slashus2: yea, i'm really excited: we try not to look behind the api when we use it, but it really helps with debugging performance issues
19:28	stuhood	slashus2: are you using the IMAP portion of that api?
19:28	clojurebot	the website api refers to last release
19:28	slashus2	nope
19:28	stuhood	gotcha
19:31	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
19:31	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
19:32	AWizzArd	hiredman: why do you feed it?
19:33	hiredman	it's a computer program, feeding it would be silly
19:33	hiredman	I reward it
23:15	slashus2	,(.pow (bigint 10) (.pow (bigint 10) 100))
23:16	clojurebot	1
23:17	slashus2	not quite a googolplex
23:17	cmvkk	is the problem that the 100 at the end has to be a bigint maybe
23:17	slashus2	Do the last part by itself
23:17	slashus2	It comes out to be a googol
23:18	gnuvince_	,(.pow (bigint 10) 100)
23:18	clojurebot	10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
23:19	gnuvince_	,(.pow (bigint 10) (bigint 100))
23:19	clojurebot	10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
23:19	cmvkk	,(.pow (bigint 10) (.pow (bigint 10) (bigint 100)))
23:19	clojurebot	1
23:19	slashus2	:-(
23:19	cmvkk	,(.pow (bigint 10) (.pow (bigint 10) (bigint 10)))
23:19	cmvkk	that should just time out.
23:19	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
23:20	cmvkk	so i wonder why it doesn't work after a while
23:20	slashus2	It should time out on the other one as well.
23:20	cmvkk	yeah.
23:20	slashus2	Not return 1...
23:20	slashus2	I will try to confirm that this is the behavior in java when I get time.
23:22	cmvkk	I see no reason why it wouldn't be the case
23:22	slashus2	I was watching cosmos and Carl Sagan mentioned a googolplex, I wanted to see what a googol looked like.
23:23	cmvkk	of course even with unlimited time, you couldn't write out a googolplex with a computer
23:23	cmvkk	or rather, you couldn't define one as a bigint
23:23	slashus2	oh I see.
23:24	slashus2	BigInt's power function only takes an integer
23:24	cmvkk	because you'd need at least a googol bits to do it, and more like 2.5*googol or whatever
23:24	cmvkk	oh, it coerces to int?
23:24	slashus2	I think so
23:25	slashus2	�BigInteger pow(int�exponent)
23:25	slashus2	It is strange that it doesn't take another BigInteger.
23:25	cmvkk	well it makes sense to a degree.
23:26	cmvkk	on a 32-bit system, you won't ever have enough memory to define a number raised to a power above max_int.
23:26	slashus2	That you will probably never use a pow greater than max_int
23:27	cmvkk	because 2^max_int is exactly the maximum amount of memory a 32-bit system can have.
23:27	slashus2	On a 64-bit system max_int will be the max amount of memory a 64-bit system can have :-)
23:28	cmvkk	or the highest number your memory can represent, i mean.
23:28	slashus2	right
23:28	cmvkk	well based on java numbers, for a 64-bit system it would be max_long.
23:28	cmvkk	i think java ints are 32 bits and longs are 64 bits no matter what the chip archetecture is
23:36	WizardofWestmarc	cmvkk: I'd hope so else you lose some of the consistance java is supposed to give across hardware...
23:53	slashus2	Maybe when a majority of systems are 64-bit, they will switch it over to use long?
23:53	WizardofWestmarc	that or introduce a new type for 128 bit numbers, 'cause you'd potentially break a lot of legacy code if you changed the length of ints vs longs
23:54	slashus2	I mean the pow function in BigInteger
23:54	slashus2	Not the whole system
23:55	WizardofWestmarc	ah
23:55	WizardofWestmarc	yeah big int I'd hope they'd change
23:56	WizardofWestmarc	'cause once we can start having things bigger then even 64 bit numbers, we'll really need big int to kick it up a notch
23:56	WizardofWestmarc	as I doubt anyone relies on big int erroring <_<